June 18, 2018 • 58 mins
In March 1988, Steven Barnes was arrested and charged with the rape, sodomy, and murder of 16-year-old Kimberly Simon in upstate New York. He was tried by a jury in Utica beginning on May 15, 1989. Questionable eyewitness identifications and three forms of unvalidated forensic science were used against Steven at trial, and he was convicted of rape and murder and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. Nearly two decades later, on November 25, 2008, DNA testing obtained by the Innocence Project proved his innocence and Steven Barnes walked out of the Utica courthouse a free man.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
I've never been to trouble of my life. I didn't
even have a parking ticket, and you know what I mean.
I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like
everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent.
(00:22):
I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to
do with this. How is this possible? I grew up
trusting the systems. I grew up believing that every human
thing should do the right thing. And that's why, even
though I was dealing with CORRP people, I wasn't going
to brave anyone to get me out of prison because
I wouldn't live with the fact that I braved my
way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent to
(00:45):
proven guilty. I'm guilty until I proved my innocence. And
that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. Since I've
been out ten years, it's come a little ways, but
it's still broken, a totally little trust in humanity after
what happened to me. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back
(01:17):
to wrongful conviction. Today's episode is insane. This story will
really rattle your perceptions of criminal justice and the guy
who's here to tell it as an extraordinary guy. In
two thousand eight, Stephen Barnes entered an unfamiliar new world.
For two decades, he'd been locked in prison, convicted for
(01:39):
the murder of sixteen year old Kimberly Simon. It was
a crime he had not committed. A jury convicted Barnes
in nine based on mistakes by eye witnesses, allying jail
house informant, and bad science DNA evidence exonerated Barnes two
days before Thanksgiving. In two thousand and eight, Stephen Barnes,
welcome to wrongful Conviction. Thank you for having me. York
(02:01):
case is truly bizarre, and that it is one of
the most It's an unreal situation when when you were
convicted with the total absence of any kind of evidence,
and with everything that there was pointing elsewhere. We're gonna
get into that later, but I want to go back
to the beginning because you were really just a kid
when this happened. You grew up in the suburbs of
(02:21):
New York, right, Yeah, a small town in Utica. New
York called Marcy, New York, right, And how was your childhood? Uh? Good?
I was. I went to Catholic school for eight years.
I went to another high school for two years. When
I was seventeen years old, my real father passed away.
And then when I was nineteen, I was a year
at high school. I graduate high school. Was when my
(02:46):
nightmares started, and you're a nightmare. It started and it stopped,
and then it's then it really took on a new
because this was a cold case. This is a terrible case.
This is a sixteen year old girl. She was brewery
raped and murdered, and they found her uh off of
Maine Road, about three miles from my house where I
grew up. Did you know her? No, she was three
(03:06):
years younger than me. I didn't never hung out with her.
I didn't over her, never matter. And she lived right
in the same town I did. Her parents did. So
this must have been big news in the town that
you left. You don't have a lot of murders up there, No,
it was. Yeah, so it was a big thing because
my area, that stuff don't happen. No, that kind of
stuff don't happen, And so people must have been paniced.
Was there a lot of news. There was media all
(03:29):
over back in eighty five. How I got involved is
where they found her body. There was four corners and
they had the cops had roadbox and I went to
the roadblock and they had eight by ten pitchers of
her and they asked, you've seen this girl? And I
said no. And then later on that day I went
through the roadblock again. But on my way home, my
buddy has a beverage center and I wanted to get
(03:51):
a six pack of beer, so I made a loot.
You turn through the comedian store and the cop was
on a pay phone and he saw me cut to
the parking lot and I shot. He shot across the
street and he pulled me over and he asked me
for my licensed, my registration, and he said, why did
you turn around? I said, I wanted to get a
six pack and I forgotten, so they thought you turned
(04:11):
around to avoid the road. Yes, And I went through
the roadblock earlier in the day in the morning. Your
case really highlights the fact that this can happen to anyone.
Like you're painting such a mundane picture, right, It's like
you're going to your thing, You're gonna get a six pack.
You turn things that everybody very much has done, and
you're just a typical kid in a typical town. And
(04:33):
then what after that incident? It was three days exactly
three days later they called me my mother's house and said,
can you come up to the sheriff's apartment answer some questions?
And what were you thinking when you got that call? Yeah,
I was like wow, and I'm like, okay, I got
nothing high I'll go up there and answer wherever you got,
you know a little bit. I know I was there
for twelve and twelve hours. Did you get a lawyer
(04:55):
or anything? Nothing? My first hour there, they're asked me
where I was on September eight, and I told him
what I did from when I got up to what
I did that night and about and then another investigator
came in and he asked me the same questions. And
then another investigator came in and he remembered he looked
me in the eye and he slammed his hand out
(05:16):
on the dusk and he said, you fan did this,
and you're gonna tell us how he did it. And
I stood up and I said, I f and did
not do it. And I am trying to cooperate with
you people, and you're trying to blame me. Put this
on me. I go, I had nothing to do with it.
I said, can I call my mother? Yeah? In a minute.
In a minute, I said, can I have a glass
of water? They didn't give me a glass of water.
(05:37):
Then I said that. After a while, they said, can
we search a vehicle? I'm so sure I had to
sign a waiver. Then they made me take my shirt off.
They're looking for scratches. Um. They cut in, tearrogating me. Um,
asked me who my girlfriend was at the time, What
do I like to do? And they kept going back
and forth and you know, and they treated me like
(05:58):
ship excuse my lane. Which But then after about ten
hours they said, would you take a polygraph test? Yeah?
On ten hours there? After ten hours, did you get
any water by now? Or nothing? No phone call? No?
No phone never came nothing. Did you ever ask for
a lawyer? Yes? Nothing, they said, I never asked for nothing.
The cops took the stand and he said no, But
(06:20):
so you did ask for a lawer, that's I mean,
because yea, they didn't even at what point did you
realize that you needed a lawyer, because well, after like
the first three or four hours ago, this is getting
really intense here. They really think I have something to
do with this. And I've never been in trouble with
my life. I didn't even have a parking ticket. I didn't,
you know what I mean. I was brought up like
cops or the good guys. My parents brought me up.
(06:42):
You know, cops they treat you this. These guys will
treat me like I was already convicted. I was. I
was a scumbag, you know what I mean. It was
like acting like that Charles Benson in there. I mean,
I go, with a minute, I go, I'm just living
my normal life, like nor that ninth year old kid.
I just got my year out of high school. I go,
I'm just you know, next thing, you know, like they're
accusing me a murder rate that means insane. Nineteen, you're
(07:03):
really still you're closer to a child than an adult.
But you don't have the sense to ask for a lawyer.
And this is something I tell people as often as
I can, because it's so important. If you do get
picked up for something you didn't do. First of all,
remember they're not your friends, right and they're not there
to help you in that situation. So you have to
protect yourself, and that means ask for a lawyer as
(07:25):
soon as you go in there and stop talking because
anything you say, like they said TV, anything you say
can be used against you, and it will be. And
then at that point you have a very adversarial relationship,
but purely adversary relationship. They want you to confess to something,
and which is amazing too. By the way you were
you were interrogated for twelve hours and you didn't confess,
and you were a teenager, so you don't confess twelve
(07:47):
hours go by? Now what Well? I took the polygraph
touse state. He threw me in a cop card, took
me probably like twenty minutes away to a state police barracks,
threw me in a room, gave me in his book.
So look through. The book tells you how polygraph it is,
how it works. What time is it now, Oh, it's
just started at noon. Now we're almost at eleven o'clock
at night. It's late, you know. So I didn't know
(08:09):
the pobably I heard of him. I never took one.
So they took all this stuff up to me, you know,
I'm already nervous wreck. You know, they're trying to blame
me for this for the last ten hours, harassing the
hell out of me. I'm like stressed out, aggravated, nervous,
you know what I mean. Like this is not this
is not good. You know what I mean, because a
polygraph test works on your nerves. So they asked me
(08:31):
some questions. I don't even remember half the questions. They
asked me, if somebody paid me to do this, do
you know soon? So I took the test, and I
remember they it was about half about an hour, and
I remember I was sitting in a small room and
they had a glass to Willia mirror in the cops
room behind there watching me as this guy that was
this guy He goes, I'm a professional. I do this
(08:52):
for a living. I polygraph doctors, lawyers, this, everybody. You know.
That's okay, I understand at your job. So we did
the polygraph and then on the way at the cops
brought me back to get my truck at the sheriff's
apartment and they go, I go, so now what, they go,
You're free to go home. Oh, they didn't tell you
if you pass it failed? No, so I get in
(09:13):
my truck. It's alf white, fingerprinted floor mats are out
of it. They've whatever, they destroyed it. So I went home.
I was living my mother still and she goes, where
you been? She was sleeping, you know, one o'clock in
the morning. I go, you gotta get up. I go,
we got problems there. She goes, what I go. They're
trying to blame me for this Kim Simon's murder. I says,
(09:34):
I was up there. She goes, where you been all day?
I said, have it up there for a little over
twelve hours. She goes, why don't you call me? I said,
I asked for a phone call. They don't even let
me nothing. So the next day, my mother we had
a family attorney friend, so we called him and I
told him the situation, and then he called the sheriff's apartment.
He said, well, they told him the polygraph came back
(09:54):
and conclusive. Is he willing to take another one? And
my lawyer that I had, he goes, no, he's not
taking another one. And it was about six months after
that they called my house and said, you are to
report over to the hospital for to give up blood
and hair. Six months have gone by six months after interrogation.
(10:15):
So after six months, you're in the clear. Yes, I'm
living my life. Ye I'm going to work. I had
a very unpleasant experience, but yes, yeah, it just okay,
you know. So I go up to me and my
moth drive up there. They take vowels of blood to
take care from all over my body, and I went home.
For the next three years, they fouled me, harassed me,
(10:37):
called my ex girlfriend up, interrogated her, asked all kinds
of stuff, What type of sex do I like this? That?
What type of person I am? Uh? My drugs do
I drink? All this, you know, crazy stuff, told her
parents that she keeps dating me, she's going to be
the next one, you know, all this crazy stuff, and
I go really, So it was um, three and a
(10:59):
half years later, after the official interrogation. I'm sitting home.
It was March. My girlfriend's birthday was gonna be on
the twenty nine. Me and my little brother and my
my girlfriend were sitting in my mother's house hanging out
watching Uh. Back in them days, MTV was good, you know,
with the videos. So we're watching and having a couple
(11:23):
of pops and my brother, you know, we're talking. All
of a sudden, there's a knock on the door. There's
the two investigators that interrogated me. They go, high, Steve,
can you do you remember us? I said, all could
I ever forget your ugly mug? You know what I mean?
You guys made my life as a morning I go,
what do you want now? They said, A couple of
people come forward and you're under the rest. So step
out of the house. My brother's flipping out, my girlfriend's crying.
(11:46):
I'm flipping out there. They cuffed me, stuffed me in
the car. I'm cursing. All the way to from my
mother's house to the sheriff's apartment is probably a ten
minute drive. They had about twelve police cars. All the
freaking guys are out, guns drawn. You know, It's like,
what the hell is going on? And I'm like, this
is insane. Bring me up to the sheriff's department and
(12:07):
the media is there, and they filmed the cameras getting
me out of the cop car, and the next day
in the papers, you know, we got the real murderer
of this. So I was in the county jail for
about two months and they finally gave me bail a
hundred thousands, So my mother put up her house and
I had a basic lawyer, but he wasn't too good.
(12:30):
My mother hired a prominent lawyer in here. He was
noted for He's been around a long time. And I
was out on bail about a year. I couldn't go
anywhere I had. I was like an house arrest. I
didn't wear a bracelet, but I just went to work
and came home. I couldn't go anywhere. It's couldn't go
to bars. You were probably infamous at this point, right,
I mean you've already been convicted in the media pretty much.
(12:51):
Oh yeah, they already had me, you know. I then
they had me seal and deal that was you know.
I mean if you oh yeah, they already said, yeah,
did you would get harassed, but oh yeah, I would go.
I would go to the store my mother, and then
people there's the scumbag barns at murder rapists, you know,
stuff like that. So I just ignored it. And the
cops used to follow me around, you know. And my
(13:12):
girlfriend was going to college not far from my house,
and they would sit in the parking lot. I would
go down and visit her and they would sit in
the parking lot and when I was out in bail,
they'd follow me around. And one day they were behind me,
and I stopped my truck and got out, and I said,
what's your problem? I go. You can follow me everywhere.
Me and my girlfriend went skiing. The officer was up
on the mountain skiing right behind us. They're following me
(13:33):
all around when I'm out the bail, and I'm like me,
I can't even go anywhere, you know what I mean.
And then I wanted to go to New York State
Fair and I was out on bail, and he said
I had to go to the judge to leave the county.
And I go to State Fair and I run into
the investigators there. I go to you guys, nothing better
than doing to follow me around. And so that went
(14:04):
on for almost a year and then I my trial
started in May of and UH picked my jury. In
my trial, I went through about seven people to get
a juror, and my juror was mostly elderly people. I
don't think that everyone. A lot of people back in
them days, they didn't really want to be on a jury.
They don't. I think they paid me like five or
(14:25):
eight bucks and jury duty. And my trial was m
all circumstantial. Um maybe perhaps it could have been. My
three main things in my trial was when I was
in a county jail for a few months. We call
him jail house rats. There was this guy I locked
on the gallery with me. I never spoke to him.
(14:48):
I knew who he was because when I was in
the county I didn't really talk to any guys, you know.
I stayed to myself. I didn't talk my case with nobody.
And this guy was a career criminal, was facing three
to nine years state for stolen credit cards, bad checks,
and he after I got on bail, the investigators went
and interviewed everybody on my tear and this guy said
(15:10):
that I was talking to him, and I admitted to
him that I said that I killed this girl. Yes,
at the conversation never happened. He got a time caught.
He ended up doing three three, three or four months
in the county jail and got sprung. He never got
his three to nine it was supposed to get because
he did them a big favorites. He lied. And then
(15:31):
when they searched my truck, this is what they called
junk science. They said there was a similar gene and
print on the side of my truck that was similar
to her type of pick. And the eighties there was
George Ash jeans and the style of the jeans was
imprinted on the side of my truck. They said it
was similar to hers. Well, they had this guy from
the gene company testify that with that type of pattern,
(15:54):
that type of gene, and that time frame that that
year they narrowed it down to three thou was in
pairs of jeans with that same pattern. So anybody saved
my truck was parking the parking lot and somebody was
at the grocery store bumped into side of my truck. Head.
What's today, they wouldn't use that in trial. They would
throw that right out. You know, it's called junk. That's
(16:15):
total junk, and it's ridiculous. I mean, I remember back
then Jordash is one of the most popular type of jeans. Yeah,
And it was the guy there and was talking about
the pattern he had all blown up and it was
so And then when I when I let him search
my truck, they found of hair and they said it
was similar to hers. It was similar to hers. It
was blonde, but your sister was blonde, right, I mean
(16:36):
so like, yeah, that's amazing. It was similar to hers.
That's great. Now this day and age, there's no such
thing as a similar hair. You know, it's your hair,
you know, wearing a lot more technology now. But and
then they took dirt from under my real roles in
my truck. Yeah, this is where it really blows my
mind that they said the dirt was similar at the
crime scene. The dirt was similar. Oh my god, but
(16:59):
dirt was I was my lawyer talked to somebody in
my whole county, like ninety five percent of the whole
county has sand in the dirt, and they asked me
where did you get the dirt on it? And behind
my mother's houice wee. We used to have a little
spot we hung out and we drove our trucks baked.
There was a little hangout for us neighborhood kids. And
I didn't wash my truck on a regular basis, and
(17:20):
I had I and dirt. So they had these jars
dirt like it was like a big thing. Like. So
the three types of circumstantial evidence, which each one is ridiculous. Right,
We're a gene imprint, which By the way, how good
of an imprint can a gene make on a car?
Let's just reflect on days and days or weeks later,
there's a gene imprint. That's that's ridiculous. Okay, that's number one.
(17:42):
You had the hair which was quote unquote similar to
the victims, right, A lot of people have similar hair.
It was blonde, right, Okay, so that's not really I mean,
that's pretty crazy. And then you have dirt, right. Dirt
is dirt, right. I mean I'm not a horticulturalist, but
(18:04):
and the idea that you're going to convict somebody and
sentenced them to years to life Jared dirt, it's similar.
It don't make sense. And then let's talk Stephen also
about the evidence in this case. There was call it
overwhelming evidence of innocence, right, And let's talk about those
scales of justice and the evidence that tipped in your
(18:26):
favor and why this should have been really a relatively
simple verdict for the jury to reach. Right. There was
there was the alibi. Right. So it was at a
bowling Alley had at night and had my bowl and sheet,
I had my buddy I was with, who left the
bowl and Alley went to a party. He testified his
parents owned the bowl and alley. They testified people that
(18:47):
were at the bowling alley in the bar with me
all testified. There was one guy at the bar that
was supposed to be a friend of mine, but he
was friends with the victims family, and he said that
I wasn't at the bar at the time. I said,
So you got forty something people saying I'm there at
this time, and they got one guy saying that I
(19:07):
wasn't there at that time at six o'clock thirty quarters six.
He said I was there later at seven. And it's
hard for me to believe that the jury would listen
to one guy over forty people that had the same story.
But that's not all. Then you also had the fact
that there was no physical evidence connecting you to the crime.
And then there was the tire tracks. Right, your car
(19:28):
doesn't match entire tracks. Now we're getting to something that
has an actual basis in science. Right. The sires are
a certain size. You can't change that size. You didn't
change the tires in your car that night. Did you
know it was a truck? You know, I had a
pretty good sized tread on it. And they said in
my trial that a lot of the tire tracks were
(19:50):
from the cop cars. My lawyer said, well, why didn't
shoot because they never took castings in nothing, And that's
what they said. They didn't take casting because there was
a few tracks when they first got at the scene.
But they didn't. Really these officers, I call him Mickey Mouse.
They were sheriffs. They go to a community college, they
get a two year degree and they give him a
(20:10):
badge and they think they're investigator of you know, they
think they're working for the FBI. They going on the
butt from a home to Columbo. Right. Yeah, so your
trial must have taken forever. It's seven jurors that they
had to if you, I mean, how long did all
that take? Picked the juror was a couple of weeks,
and then how long did the trial take? It was
almost a month. So this is three and a half weeks.
(20:32):
And I was saying earlier I had the junk science
and under was in jail house informant. Then I had
one other person. This guy was in Utica cop. He
was off duty. He said him back in Nive. He
didn't know what vehicle he saw or what person he
saw on the same road where they found her body.
He took the stand in my trial and he said
after three and a half years his mind got better
(20:55):
and he picked me and my truck out. And what
they did is they had a photo lineup of all
these differ from people and he said it was a line. Guy. Well,
my picture was the only one with blond hair. Everybody
else had different color hair. Then he had a lineup
of trucks. They had white trucks, they had they had blue,
different pickups. My truck was the only red, maroonish pickup truck.
(21:17):
That's what he saw. But he said he was going
down Mohawk Street at fifty mile and they said, at
the rate of speed, you only have so many seconds
to see a vehicle. Well, this guy said, he picked
out he saw on in front of my truck. He
had my license plate and then blow that it was
a GMC. I had another colorful plate that went underneath.
You know, it was a big thing in the eighties
(21:38):
and this kid thing and he said he saw that.
But if you look at my truck and you see
that GMC plate, you're going to see the license plate
right above it. It's like automatic, you know, it's like
one piece. He said he didn't see the plate number,
but his body was running for sheriff that year and
he wanted to be the under sheriff. So that was
a politics move, you know what I mean. He was
(21:59):
a incentivized way this too. It blows my mind that
everyone knows it's illegal to bribe a witness. You couldn't
have paid somebody to come in and go no, no, no, Steve,
definitely not. I saw him on the thing. Whatever. You
can't do that, that's totally You got a jail for that.
But the government can offer the best bribe in the
world in exchange for false testimony, which is they can
go to a guy like this guy who sounds like
(22:20):
a career scumbag, right, this guy stole over whatever his
name was testifying. Yeah. So so the idea that they
can bribe somebody like that with the you know, giving
them literally years and years of prison time to make
it just manage like a miracle. Do you think Steve,
that they knew that you were innocent. I think they did.
(22:41):
I think they wanted to solve the case. There was
a lot of pressure. Like I said, a early small
town murder rapes like that don't happen every you know,
it doesn't happen in my area, you know what I mean.
It was like this was the biggest story in a
long time, you know what I mean, ever since I
was a kid. I don't remember. Let me let me correct.
You know, they didn't want to solve the case. They
wanted to clear the out of the solid case. They
would have had to actually go back to the work.
(23:02):
It was on the news every day in the media.
I mean, they just kept it was never quiet. So
the jury goes out and how long did they deliberate?
For almost twenty four hours? That must have been one
of the hardest twenty four hours of your life. Yes,
the first day I went home after the jury, they
just you know, it was a quarter hour days they
(23:23):
went and I remember then the second day it was
home and buddy of mine, my couple of my buddies
around They go, yeah, I mean it was right before
Memorial Day and we're gonna go to a like a
festival party. Uh. They had field days in my area
of Fireman. It's like a carnival. My buddy was heah'
were going there tonight? I said, yeah, I said, everything's
(23:45):
gonna work out, And I haven't slept like along, you know,
since the jury went out. You know what I mean.
It's like, this is my life, you know what I mean.
They're trying to nail me to the cross for somebody
to do, you know what I mean. I'm like, I'm like,
this can't be happening, you know what I mean. I'm like,
I'm like Jock, and I can't even I went to
this trial, and so we got to call the jury's
back and we went to the courtroom, and um, me
(24:10):
and my lawyer, we walked in. I get a little
teary eyed some things. Um we uh yeah, thank you.
But every day during a trial, Um, the jury used
(24:31):
to look at me when I when I when I
was sitting there, you know, and people were testifying, the
jury used to look at me. We take a break,
come in and out in the jury est always look
at us, me and my lawyer. But that day we came,
you know, the jury came back and they wouldn't look
at me and my lawyer. We walked into courtboro when
they sit down and then they jury foreman gives the judge.
(24:51):
You know, we were you know, we reached a verdict
and they said please stand and they said guilty, and
I melted. But yeah, I was about to say this
day of my life. UM no, no, not sorry. I
(25:14):
get emotional about that. But my lawyer looked at me
and I've seen the theorical down Sonciety said I'm awful, sorry,
and I said, so they copped me, put me in judeo.
You know, we broke my bail and um, we tried
to get a retrial, and you know, my lawyer put
in different motions. He said, somebody on the jury knew.
(25:35):
Somebody testified and they investigated and they said no, it's
you know, nothing denied. So that was June two. The
verdict came back. I got sentenced in September. September two
and I went to court and uh, they gave me
(25:56):
the max. They life for murder, rape inside of me
and before the sattens me, I told the judge I'm innocent,
and my little sister jumped up in the courtroom side
you were over my brother because the d A said,
I didn't show any remorse because when my sister jumped
up and said, that's because he didn't do it, you know,
(26:19):
in the escortor out of the courtroom, and a few
other people shouted out some things and the judge says,
everybody's gotta be quiet, so they sapence me. Then, um,
eight days later, I was sitting in attica, Um, and
I remember the two officers that brought me up. They
you know, they talked ship to me the whole time.
(26:40):
He said, Uh, you're gonna be somebody's bitch in jail.
You know they're gonna get you because you're you have
a rape charge. What So No, I figured, you know,
I'm gonna be home a couple of years. It didn't work.
A couple of years turned into twenty years while you
(27:16):
were inside and some of these most violent, hellish places.
It really is hell on earth. How did you maintain hope? Well,
the main thing was on my family. They were my
main supporters. A lot of guys in person helped me
have any family, you know. And I know I didn't
do this, and I said, I'm going to fight to
(27:36):
the end and some day the truth will set me free.
And I never realized it would take twenty years, you
know what I mean? I thought, you know, but it did,
and then here you are and here I am on
the show. But like I always tell everybody, Um, hope.
You know, hope. In my family, it's all they had.
When I was in jail, I had my mother and
(27:58):
my brother and my sister. It's all I had. I
had one close friend, the guy I was with that
night at the bowling, and he came to visit me
a couple of times, but everybody else moved on. My
first six months up state, I told my girlfriend, I said,
go live your life. I don't know what's gonna happen
with me. She was year younger than me. I said,
(28:19):
go meet Mr Wright. You know, have I ever run
into you again? You know, I hope you do. I said,
you'd be happy, and she cried and I cried. So
I'm in jail, and you know, I never called it
my home or accepted it, but um I figured. You know,
my lawyer, my child law he did my appeals. Worth
(28:41):
Department in Rochester day shot my appeal down. Then I
tried to go to a Court of Appeals and they
denied me entry. And then six months after that, my
lawyer died of a massive heart attack at the age
of sixty. Another part of my luck. My lawyer dies.
The assistant the a that tried me, he died of
(29:03):
a massive heart attack six months after my lawyer died
of a heart attack. So I have sat dormant for
four or five years, bounced around from prison to prison.
You know, prison life was not good. I had a fight,
um strong, survived a week. It prayed on. You know,
I wasn't going to be the weak person to get
prayed on. And I lifted weights and I stabbed people.
(29:27):
You know, you're forced to live in an environment that
you not used to and people that you hate. And
it's just I tell people that I wouldn't wish prison
on my worst enemy, you know what I mean, It's
hell on earth. I've never been in trouble, and here
I am got a life bid and I'm like, I
don't know what I'm ever gonna get out of here.
Were you a tough guy when you went in? Like, yeah,
(29:48):
I was, you know, yeah, I didn't take no crap,
you know what I mean. I I wasn't old bully
or nothing. But um, then you're in there. There's a
lot of guys bigger and tougher than you. Oh yeah,
there's Yeah, there's just a lot of tough There's a
lot of big guys in there. And I lifted weights,
and you know I lifted a lot of heavy weights.
I was big. I want a lot of weight lifting competitions.
And we had TVs in the yard and um it
(30:11):
was I don't know, back in the eighties they had
the Phil down Who show. I remember the Phil down
Who Show. Well, there's these two guys on there and
their name was very Shock and Peter Neufeld, and they
had guys on there that they got out through DNA.
And this was like in and my mother watched the
same show. So I go, I'm gonna write them a letter.
(30:35):
I wrote a twelve pages followed third team page letters,
explained my whole case to them what happened, you know,
and they wrote me back questionnaire. They agreed to take
my case. So for a couple of years to get
the evidence, they came up, took my blood. We agreed
on a lab back in them days, my my head
(30:56):
to pay for the lab testing. The Innocent project was
very small. You actually talked to Barry on the phone
and it was about me, five or six law students
from Cordova and it was a real small operation operation.
It's not it like it does now. I mean it's
but they sent it to a lab and they had
the technology wasn't there. My mother came up and I
(31:16):
really thought it was going home, you know, I got
all excited, and I had about seven years and seventy
years by now, and she came up to visit me
and said, I'm sorry, but the DNA tests came back inclusive.
Our technology wasn't there like we have now. And plus
the way the law enforcement collected evidence back down, you know,
it was very sloppy. It it still is, but there's
(31:38):
no a lot of these cops they don't, you know,
they're not. They should train some people how to do
evidence and how they handle it, and they put some
kind of solution on the slides it breaks down DNA
and stuff. And we still don't have a national standard
for a storing of this evidence, which is insane. We
keep the evidence so we can find the guy, right that,
whoever did this to this poor girl, is this sick,
(32:00):
sick predator that needs to be off the streets. And
in order to someday have a chance to get that guy,
you gotta save the evidence. I mean, and I'm just
talking about your case. I thought about every case. So
they should they should absolutely be a standard practice that
everybody has to adhere to UM. And obviously that wasn't
the situation in your case. But go ahead, another setback,
another setback. So I got convicted. My lawyer Dice Peele's
(32:21):
shot down. Now in conclusive DNA. Now I'm like hopes.
I always tell people my hope, my candle. You know,
the flame was like really big, and now the flame
was just about out, you know what I mean. I'm like,
I'm hitting rock bottom. I go, I'm gonna die in here.
I got a life bed. I almost got ten years in.
I got another fifteen ago just to go to the
pro board. Um. If I went to the pro board,
(32:43):
I have to make gil I didn't do this. So
I'm gonna not dying here. Um. And they didn't have
the death penalty. Good thing, because they probably would have
executed me. So I always kept studying the law library,
and I bounced around from prison to prison. I was
in eight, eight or nine different maxes and throughout the
state of New York. And I kept busy, and I
always went to the law library, and I kept up
(33:03):
on DNA, you know, And then I followed up on
some cases guys that were that I did time with
were getting out in NICUs, and I remember reading about DNA.
It was a y S t R DNA testing. It
was a real new and touched DNA and that John
ben A Rains the case where people touched their clothes
they get DNA. So my brother, they had, my younger brother,
(33:27):
he drove down to Boston, Massachusetts. They had a conference
down there from the Alexonorees got out. So he went
down and talked to Barry and Peter were there in
a couple of honorees, and he says, I told him,
you worked on my brother's case like eight nine years
ago and it was inconclusive. Can you maybe re look
into it, because you know, technology has come a long way.
And so it was probably six eight months later. Maddie
(33:52):
alone called a prison. I was at an Elmira. Actually
the chaplain came to my cell, and I thought somebody
passed away, because I lost all my grandparents when I
was in prison. And I'm like, oh my god. When
the chaplain comes to your cell, you think automatically, think
you know, there's a death in a family or something
bad happen, you know, But the chaplain said, no, it's
good news. You gotta call the Innocent Projects. So I
(34:13):
called down and they said many bloms. She said, we're
taking on your case. So now I got about seventeen sixteen,
seventeen years and almost and I was thinking, I hope
they still have the evidence because in my area it's small.
They don't have the storage to close rape kits. You know,
(34:34):
they just throw your ship in a box, put it
on the shelf, you know, after your appeals and sometimes
they get rid of it. Well, they started to investigate.
They found the evidence, so I had to go through
the same process that I went through as years back.
So we agreed on a lab. And it was almost
(34:55):
two years after got the evidence they come up to
my Uh, the two investigators from the Sheriff's department and
a lady from the lab. Um my staff attorney from
the Innocent Project called and said they're gonna come up.
They're gonna squab. You don't talk to him, you know,
just do the thing, okay. So they came up. It
(35:17):
was the beginning of November, like this first week in
November of two thousand and eight. I went in and
the cops are going, uh, you know, how you doing, Steve?
I go, I'm doing good. You know while you're here.
I go, yeah, I requested you guys to be here.
I wrote to the Innocent Project and I requested DNA testing.
I go, you guys just didn't wake up one more
and say, you know, Steve Barnes innocent. We want to
get him out of jail. And they looked at me
(35:39):
and no, yeah, you're right. We were here because you know,
we worked for the d a's office. I see up.
So they swabbed me. You know, he did all that,
and they sealed everything, and I go, how long is
it gonna take? And they said about two weeks. I said,
I'll see in court. I walked out and it was
a little over two weeks. It was on Friday. It
(36:00):
was November twenty one. I used to call home talk
to my mother on Friday night and she was coming
up to visit on the weekend. And she says, the
Innocent Project wants you to call. So we locked in
at five. It was like four thirty quarter to five,
so I we had a lock in for child and
I we came back out at about six six. So
(36:22):
my mother ended up calling the Innocent Project because I
can't get on the phone, so I called my mother
after after child, she said, uh, my staff Starney name
was Alba morale As she's not with Innocent Project anymore.
About she asked my mother. She goes, it was right
before Thanksgiving, you know, she asked my mother, what are
you gonna do for Thanksgiving? My mother says, uh, I
(36:42):
always wish, you know, Steve wouldn't be home for Thanksgiving
because we really have them celebrated and Thanksgiving, her Christmas,
Arney Holidays for you know, two decades. And uh, she told,
my mother said, another dinner plate at the table, because
your son's coming home. And that was another time I cried.
But um, twenty years before that was tears of us sadness.
(37:03):
Now I had tears of joy and I was on
the gal arena, dropped the phone and I go, yeah,
I'm going home, you know, and not. So that was
good Friday, excuse me Friday, and my mother came up
excuse me that Saturday next day and the prison I
(37:27):
was in, I was there about six years, and the
CEO's knew me and my you know, she goes, my son,
you know, got his honor and he's coming home. So
they took me at the corps on Monday morning it
was now four So when I went to the court
the d A at the time of my trial, the
head d A. After my conviction, he got he got
(37:49):
elected as a judge. He was running for to be
a judge, so they couldn't put me in front of him.
And then, um, very shocky. He couldn't get a flight
out from the city down to the courtroom. So you
put me in the county jail for one more night.
So I had to go to court on crazy night. Yeah,
so they're like deciding what to do. I go. Listen,
(38:10):
I was found out on Friday night, on the twenty
one that I was innocent, and I've been in jail
and four more days. So they put me in the
county jail and every you know, I've been on the
news and you know, people are coming up to my
cell in the county jail. Yo, man, you know all
that time, Oh my god, you know, I could just
get away from my cell. I just want to chill out.
(38:31):
So I didn't really sleep much that night, and I
didn't sleep the whole weekend in jail and in prison,
and then I they brought me to court, you know,
and I remember that my mother brought up a suit,
I mean the property room, and I has to see. Oh,
I go, listen, we got a problem. He goes, what
I go? I forgot out to tie a tie. You
think you could help me out here? So he did
(38:52):
around his neck and he shook my hand, and then
they put shackled me all up. You know, pretty ridiculous
when you at it right, you've already been exonerated. What's
the point, yes or whatever? Yeah, I know, but you
gotta be an official in front of the judge. So
I going, and a social worker from the Innocent Project
was there. Um Angela. She came into the bullpen and
(39:14):
she says to you, I just want to let you
know there's like bazillion cameras people. I mean, there's tons
of stuff. She goes, when you're walking in there, it's
gonna be like co spotlights. And I'm like, okay. And
I was already exhausted. So they brought me in and
all shackled up, and I'm looking around and I'm like
seeing people I haven't seen in twenty years. And I'm like,
(39:34):
and that's my friend Mark. What happened to him? He's
all gray haired, you know, And I'm looking at all
my friends that I haven't seen him, Like wow, the
judge says, you know he's he says, you know about
the DNA testing and it excluded me and he vacated
my sentence. So they it took all the shackles off
and they could hear a pin drop in the courtroom
when they dropped everything, which and then people were crying
(39:58):
and my heart was going like forty miles an hour,
and I'm like, man, I was like, I don't have
a heart. I'm saying myself, don't ever heard to take
Now you're going home? You know what I mean? You
went through all this for twenty years. And I'm like,
so then we had a media friends and you know,
they're asking me all these questions and people were showing
me what a cell phone was, and take me back
for a second thing, so that shackles drop, yes, right,
(40:19):
and then what did you turn around? Did you just um?
You said you're free to go? When we went into
another room and uh, where was your mom there? And
this she was in behind me, sitting behind uh because
I was at a podium with Barry Shock and my
staff attorney and my mother was in a back row
and everybody else that was there. That is that the
first thing you did turn around to see your mom
(40:39):
or and you know, and I I just looked at
the judge and I said I didn't. I was just
like in awe, you know what I mean? And so
and then the media friends are starting all the questions.
And then I went to a nice restaurant, had a
nice meal for the first time, you know, and what
have I had a steak and a shrimp cocktail. And
(41:01):
I remember going up my mother's road where I grew up,
and I'm like, wow, Um, places that I hung out
were torn down. New places were put up, new houses,
different roads. There was a store called the Walmart that
I never heard of. The internet. Um. I had to
start my life over like a sixteen year old kid,
you know what I mean. When they exonerate you, they
(41:22):
just drop you off the courthouse. When you get prole
from prison, they give you money. An I D card.
I didn't have nothing, you know what I mean. I
called the prison my counselor. I asked him send my
soul security and all of my records. They go, you
can't have them. So I had to get every start over.
I had to get id to get an I D
so I had to get a birth certificate, so security card,
(41:44):
and I gotta picture. I d um learn how to
drive again, because when I first got in the car
years ago, he used to have a high beam on
the floor. Now it's like in a steering wheel. And
you got this high tech stuff digital it was quite different.
Technology was hard to deal with the Internet, and then
you got into texting and I set up an email
(42:05):
and they gave me a job with the county after
I got out about six months working with troubled kids.
And then I was working for re entry. I would
help guys that got out of prison, you know, try
to help finding jobs. And I did for about five years,
and then they quit the funding and then, yeah, why
would we need any funding to help guys who just
got out of prison find jobs? What possible? Good? Good like?
(42:27):
And I worked with troubled kids that you know, they
couldn't make it in the local high schools. They ever
got just by learning out of control, you know, as
you get a lot of satisfacts. Yeah, straightened some of
them out, but I set them down. But first when
they came into my group and it set him down,
I said, listen, I don't care how tough. You are
what you think you are. But this is what happened
in my life, you know what I mean. And they
would look at me, well, and everybody knows who I
am a small town, you know what I mean. It's like,
(42:49):
did they ever find the guy who did it? No?
They put the case on America Most wanted twice. Were
there any rumors around at the time that this happened?
The new investigators they after I got out, you know,
they used to we got me in at d A.
They used to call me over all the time, and
they had pictures of certain individuals and trucks that was
somewhere in mind. They asked me if I knew these
(43:10):
persons or whatever, and I didn't. And there was a
guy that was in prison for he kidnapped the girl,
raped her and the cop he threw in the trunk
and he went to prison for it. And he jumped
in the cops are chase him. He jumped in front
of a train and chopped his legs off. But he
was a person of interest in my case, um, because
after I got out there they were running DNA touching people,
(43:32):
you know, certain they got leads. People were calling mentioned
the names. Well there's certain individual that was in jail
and me. They took his DNA and he asked him
how long it would take to come back, and they
said about almost two weeks, and he committed suicide. Because
after I got out, my whole case, how my trial,
That isn't how it happened. That was like oh lie,
where they found her body? That was not worse. She
(43:55):
was murdered, they said in my trial, they said she
was murdered, raped and left there. That was she was
dumped off there. Um, she was at a party with
a bunch of individuals. There was males and females there
and it was a Satanic worship party. And all this
stuff came to light after I got out. Um, three
people called the D's office ad minute they led. The
(44:16):
new investigators tried to call. The old investigators are now
retired living in Florida. They didn't want to return their calls.
They wouldn't cooperate with them. Um, they went and seeing
the off duty cop testified in my trial, he said,
it's my story and I'm sticking with it, and get
out of my house, off my porch. And it isn't
it weird that it took that long for all this
stuff to come out. These are important facts. And then
(44:36):
they had the reports from the original cops. They had
leads on certain other people. The cops just pushed them
to the side and didn't even look into any of them,
didn't even acknowledge him. They just had liners on They go,
we want Steve Barnes and that's you don't care people
were calling, you know, leads on someone else. They didn't
(44:57):
even follow up a none of the way. Yeah, they
call that tunnel vision. And it's so tragic too, because
you know that, I mean, like the poor girl would
happen to her, should never happened to anybody. And the
idea that the guy who actually person we don't even
know who it was, maybe more than one person, will
never know. At this point, I was free to just
uh you know, live their life, whether they committed other
(45:19):
crimes like this. Again, we will also know that we'll
never know that our system so broken up it's insane,
you know what I mean. Like since I've been I've
been to Albany like a capital, probably fifteen times, you
know what I mean. And I finally about filming interrogations
now and how they do photo lineups. I went out
with Rebecca Brown and Albany for days on ends. You know,
(45:39):
I'd be out there for the whole day talking to
the Senators and assemblymens. And Rebecca Brown is the policy.
She would come to my area and I got involved
with my congressman and my assembly mom in my area,
and they were back in me and they you know,
we find if the if they had filming interrogation when
I went, when I got interrogated back down, and it
would be a different story. And it isn't a easy
(46:00):
New York state, right. We would think New York State
pretty advanced, right one of the I mean, you know,
we're way behind our mothering states were like ten years behind.
Rhode Island, Connecticut. Jersey State patched laws like just ten
years ago. We still don't have mandatory videotaping of interrogations
in New York State. It's unbelievable. In my county, my
DA he does them all to my case, she decided
(46:20):
to than to his credit. But the idea that we
do not mandatory videotaping of interrogations at this point, it's
totally inexcusable. And it's just it's a simple way to
reduce the number of rawful incarcerations and get more right ones.
I mean, there's just no explanation of any kind that
makes any sense when it comes to that. So let
(46:41):
me as see this before we wrap this up. Then
you know, there's a lot of years gone by now too.
But is there a worst experience that you want to
share with the audience from prison? And also was there
a moment beside the moment when you actually heard that
you were going home? Was there another moment that gave
you some some sort of joy or you know, a
(47:02):
renewed sense of hope. Well, it was a rough road.
I had a lot of ups and downs and I
never had any strong positive things that was gonna you know,
after I had the first DNA testing that was inconclusive,
it kind of like I didn't know when I was
coming home, you know, I thought it was over. I
(47:22):
I literally gave up hope towards at one point. So
that was the lowest point. Yeah, But I guess the
one thing I wanted to ask was there one moment
of you know, in prison, was there somebody who actually
showed you some sort of kindness that wasn't expected. Yeah?
I had a few, you know, there was good cops
and bad cops. I had some good officers, you know.
(47:43):
I told a couple of officers you know my situation.
They believed in me. And when I was in prison,
I worked with a lot of civilians. I worked maintenance,
and I got pretty tight with what few of my civilians,
you know, and I told my story and um, actually
when I was when I got out, the maintenance supervisor
gave his phone number. You such need call me when
you get out, and you're welcome to come to my house.
(48:05):
And they always gave it looked out for me and there,
you know, he gave me nice jobs and uh, somebody
to talk to, you know what I mean. I didn't talk.
I had a few guys that hung out with that.
We worked out together. We had our little crew, you
know what I mean. And you just you know, he
didn't talk to your business with a lot of people,
but you just uh, um, I just they made me
(48:25):
uh you know, I was having a bad day my boss,
you know, you know it was you know, I talk
with him. You know, he goes, you know, you're having
a bad day. We won't do much today or whatever.
And when my family came up to visit me, and
they gave me a nice feeling. And what about I mean,
I know you talked about when I saw the video,
you talked about being tear gast, being stabbed, being in fights,
being in riots. I mean, was there one experience that
(48:50):
you may not want to share it, but if there was,
was there one experience that was like the worst? Of course?
Um it was probably a nineties seven and green Haven
crusts soil I was. They were starting to build double
bunks and I was a welder and they wanted me
to well double bunk cells and I refused, so I
was keep locked and they took us out of our
(49:11):
black for key black rack. They let you all for
one hour a day. And I was an H black
lower H. And there was one of the other key
blocked inmates. The cells beat him down. We hear him screaming,
and we're lining up in the hall with a sergeant
and they said, uh, you guys, take it to the
yard and we said, screw you, we ain't moving. He
(49:31):
just beat down one of the you know, we're not moving.
He said, I'm giving you another order to move and
he said, no, we are moving, you know. So in
prison we call him orange Crushed. I called them Nina turtles,
the guards with all the pads and right gear. They
came marching down the hall and I looked at the
guy next to me, I said, this is that I go,
do or die? I go, I'll talk to you later.
(49:54):
I go on, We're gonna make it out here alive.
And they came down and just started wailing on all.
You know, when we pretty well broken up, and they
shipped me up up north, you know, and I sat
in reception and all burned for like two weeks without
a shower and nothing. They lost my property. You know,
I thought it was like I was gonna die there
(50:15):
that day. It's probably one of my scariest times in prison,
you know, besides the first day I walked in there.
You know, when I walked in there one day, I'm
I'm packing my cell and this guy says, hey, white boy,
you know you're gonna be my bitch in prison. All
this I don't know. And I took them off ringer
and I spun around. I blasted right side the head
with it, you know what I mean. And that's the
(50:37):
way it is, you know what I mean. The strong survive.
You know, you can't say, can I think about this
and let this guy talk to me or take my
stuff prison. If you touch me or you touched my stuff,
you're gonna get stabbed or you're gonna die, or that's
the way it is. You're not gonna get punked down,
even though wind loser draw. If you you gotta stick
(50:57):
up for yourself, you know what I mean. If you don't,
you know, you're gonna be a chump punk Literally it is.
It sounds literally like Shawshank redemption, unbelievable. It's just for
people listening now, they're probably thinking this is horrible, like
what happened to you is? It's it's a crime against humanity,
(51:18):
what happen to you? People are listening, they're going what
can I do to help? Right? People want to get involved.
They're gonna hear your story and it's gonna be that
reaction probably plus plus. So what would you say to
your average person is out there listening and one of
the states out there wherever they listen or around the world,
what could people do to get active to help with
this situation? Well? I always tell people who are in
(51:39):
my area and stuff there, you know, some project they
give me my life back. You know what I mean, yeah,
you don't realize people don't really really look about, you know,
the daily life. You know, little things in life like
going to the store, going here in prison. You're you're
like a programmed person, you know. You get up at
a certain time every more and you're told what to do,
seven do your after year, you know, And I tell people,
(52:02):
you know, I didn't know it would take twenty years
prove my innocence because I thought I'd be out after
a couple of years. But day's turn into weeks, weeks
turns into months, months turn into years, and years turned
into decades of loneliness. You know. But but you didn't
give up when you had every reason to give up.
Freedom is a lot to me now, you know, like
(52:23):
years ago. You know, when you're on the street growing up,
you don't think you know everyday life. But when you
you swept away and your life's taken away and then
you get your life back. And but I just want
to say I would donate to the Innocent Project, you know,
because um, there's what happened to me. There's hundreds of
guys after me. I've been out tore almost ten years
next year, and I was number two hundred and twenty
(52:45):
seventh in the country. Now they're up to three hundred
and fifty something. And I was twenty four in New
York State and now they're at the thirty something. You know,
I mean, what happened to me, It could happen to anybody,
and it happens all the time. I mean, there's hundreds
of guys in prison there worse off to me, doing
a lot more time to me. Um. But you know,
the Innerstan Project needs money, you know, it's carry on
(53:07):
with this, you know what I mean? Like my testing
loan in my case was fiftys you know what I mean.
And I want to point out something to Steve, and
you're a perfect example. This the legislative changes, right, and
the procedural changes that the Inscence Project has been behind,
and compensation statutes like in Kansas where we finally just
got a compensation statute passed, right. You know, these changes
are seismic shifts, and these are this is the macro
(53:31):
side of the work, right. The micro side is you,
even though nothing micro about you, You're a big guy,
but you know, but the micro side is the individual cases.
The macro side is where a lot of your dollars
go if you donate to the Innocence Project like I do,
like Steve does, you know your money is going to
affect change that may actually impact you, or your community
or somebody you love in a very real way. Because
(53:52):
when these changes are made, the odds of you know, you,
yourself or a loved one becoming the next Steven Barnes
go down dramatically. And we're not going to stop. We're
just gonna keep going and going until we make this
system as close to perfect as it can be. It
will that would be perfect, but we can we can
make a lot, a huge difference, a lot of changes
feel better, and we are doing that. And now now
(54:13):
you're you've got a lot of stuff going on, right,
I mean, now you've been out for a while, you're
you're nine years, you're living your best life now, living
to dream. Yeah. I tell people I get up every
mornings like Christmas morning. You know, Stephen, we have a
tradition here at Rawful Conviction. I think people really look
forward to this part of the show because this is
the part where I shut up and I basically just
(54:33):
turned the microphone over to you so you can close
out with any thoughts you want, all Right, I just
want to say, uh, after all these, all these twenty
years that I did in prison, Um, I finally got
my life back. And uh, I can't say it enough
things that you know, some project, they believed in me,
they fought for me, they reopened my case, and they
(54:55):
gave me my life back. I didn't have a life
for twenty years. You know, I had kept a lot
of whole hope and I just I'm so happy and
what happened to me, It's probably happened a lot of
other people I know, but I hope it doesn't continue
to happen in the future. And I just hope that
between me and people on the outside world continue to
(55:17):
donate to this project and help free to Innocent and
try to better the system, because our system, you know,
since I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways,
but it's still broken, and we need people like like
all of us a desonaries get together to change laws
and the Innocent Project and people on the street to
contribute and helped us whold you know, this Freedom Act
(55:41):
to you know, progress on. And you know, I've been
out nine years, it feels like I've been out for
a lot longer. When I was in prison for all
them twenty years. It was like days dragged, you know,
I mean, out here so much to do. Um, I
can't't even imagine, uh, how to explain my freedom. You
(56:01):
know what my freedom is like so awesome. Now I
can do what I want, come and go as I please.
I don't have nobody telling me what to do, what
time to go to bed, what time to eat, you know,
turn your light off, wake up at this time. You
know what I mean. When I first got out, I
took a walk in the woods, you know, breathing fresh
air and joined life. It's just I'm having a lot
(56:26):
of fun now, and um, I just want to thank
the Innocent Project. I don't want to thank you for
having me on the show. And I look forward to
uh living a great future. I hope I lived to
be another fifty six years. I don't have any stress anymore.
I just I'm on top of the world now. Well
that's awesome, and you know, you know, I want to
(56:48):
wish you all the luck in the world. And I'm
gonna thank you again for coming in and being here
with us and sharing your story, and thank you for
having me. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review.
(57:11):
Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm
a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really
hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause
and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence
Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.
I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and
Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is by three
(57:34):
time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at
Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a
production Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company
Number one
I've never been to trouble of my life. I didn't
even have a parking ticket, and you know what I mean.
I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like
everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent.
(00:22):
I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to
do with this. How is this possible? I grew up
trusting the systems. I grew up believing that every human
thing should do the right thing. And that's why, even
though I was dealing with CORRP people, I wasn't going
to brave anyone to get me out of prison because
I wouldn't live with the fact that I braved my
way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent to
(00:45):
proven guilty. I'm guilty until I proved my innocence. And
that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. Since I've
been out ten years, it's come a little ways, but
it's still broken, a totally little trust in humanity after
what happened to me. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back
(01:17):
to wrongful conviction. Today's episode is insane. This story will
really rattle your perceptions of criminal justice and the guy
who's here to tell it as an extraordinary guy. In
two thousand eight, Stephen Barnes entered an unfamiliar new world.
For two decades, he'd been locked in prison, convicted for
(01:39):
the murder of sixteen year old Kimberly Simon. It was
a crime he had not committed. A jury convicted Barnes
in nine based on mistakes by eye witnesses, allying jail
house informant, and bad science DNA evidence exonerated Barnes two
days before Thanksgiving. In two thousand and eight, Stephen Barnes,
welcome to wrongful Conviction. Thank you for having me. York
(02:01):
case is truly bizarre, and that it is one of
the most It's an unreal situation when when you were
convicted with the total absence of any kind of evidence,
and with everything that there was pointing elsewhere. We're gonna
get into that later, but I want to go back
to the beginning because you were really just a kid
when this happened. You grew up in the suburbs of
(02:21):
New York, right, Yeah, a small town in Utica. New
York called Marcy, New York, right, And how was your childhood? Uh? Good?
I was. I went to Catholic school for eight years.
I went to another high school for two years. When
I was seventeen years old, my real father passed away.
And then when I was nineteen, I was a year
at high school. I graduate high school. Was when my
(02:46):
nightmares started, and you're a nightmare. It started and it stopped,
and then it's then it really took on a new
because this was a cold case. This is a terrible case.
This is a sixteen year old girl. She was brewery
raped and murdered, and they found her uh off of
Maine Road, about three miles from my house where I
grew up. Did you know her? No, she was three
(03:06):
years younger than me. I didn't never hung out with her.
I didn't over her, never matter. And she lived right
in the same town I did. Her parents did. So
this must have been big news in the town that
you left. You don't have a lot of murders up there, No,
it was. Yeah, so it was a big thing because
my area, that stuff don't happen. No, that kind of
stuff don't happen, And so people must have been paniced.
Was there a lot of news. There was media all
(03:29):
over back in eighty five. How I got involved is
where they found her body. There was four corners and
they had the cops had roadbox and I went to
the roadblock and they had eight by ten pitchers of
her and they asked, you've seen this girl? And I
said no. And then later on that day I went
through the roadblock again. But on my way home, my
buddy has a beverage center and I wanted to get
(03:51):
a six pack of beer, so I made a loot.
You turn through the comedian store and the cop was
on a pay phone and he saw me cut to
the parking lot and I shot. He shot across the
street and he pulled me over and he asked me
for my licensed, my registration, and he said, why did
you turn around? I said, I wanted to get a
six pack and I forgotten, so they thought you turned
(04:11):
around to avoid the road. Yes, And I went through
the roadblock earlier in the day in the morning. Your
case really highlights the fact that this can happen to anyone.
Like you're painting such a mundane picture, right, It's like
you're going to your thing, You're gonna get a six pack.
You turn things that everybody very much has done, and
you're just a typical kid in a typical town. And
(04:33):
then what after that incident? It was three days exactly
three days later they called me my mother's house and said,
can you come up to the sheriff's apartment answer some questions?
And what were you thinking when you got that call? Yeah,
I was like wow, and I'm like, okay, I got
nothing high I'll go up there and answer wherever you got,
you know a little bit. I know I was there
for twelve and twelve hours. Did you get a lawyer
(04:55):
or anything? Nothing? My first hour there, they're asked me
where I was on September eight, and I told him
what I did from when I got up to what
I did that night and about and then another investigator
came in and he asked me the same questions. And
then another investigator came in and he remembered he looked
me in the eye and he slammed his hand out
(05:16):
on the dusk and he said, you fan did this,
and you're gonna tell us how he did it. And
I stood up and I said, I f and did
not do it. And I am trying to cooperate with
you people, and you're trying to blame me. Put this
on me. I go, I had nothing to do with it.
I said, can I call my mother? Yeah? In a minute.
In a minute, I said, can I have a glass
of water? They didn't give me a glass of water.
(05:37):
Then I said that. After a while, they said, can
we search a vehicle? I'm so sure I had to
sign a waiver. Then they made me take my shirt off.
They're looking for scratches. Um. They cut in, tearrogating me. Um,
asked me who my girlfriend was at the time, What
do I like to do? And they kept going back
and forth and you know, and they treated me like
(05:58):
ship excuse my lane. Which But then after about ten
hours they said, would you take a polygraph test? Yeah?
On ten hours there? After ten hours, did you get
any water by now? Or nothing? No phone call? No?
No phone never came nothing. Did you ever ask for
a lawyer? Yes? Nothing, they said, I never asked for nothing.
The cops took the stand and he said no, But
(06:20):
so you did ask for a lawer, that's I mean,
because yea, they didn't even at what point did you
realize that you needed a lawyer, because well, after like
the first three or four hours ago, this is getting
really intense here. They really think I have something to
do with this. And I've never been in trouble with
my life. I didn't even have a parking ticket. I didn't,
you know what I mean. I was brought up like
cops or the good guys. My parents brought me up.
(06:42):
You know, cops they treat you this. These guys will
treat me like I was already convicted. I was. I
was a scumbag, you know what I mean. It was
like acting like that Charles Benson in there. I mean,
I go, with a minute, I go, I'm just living
my normal life, like nor that ninth year old kid.
I just got my year out of high school. I go,
I'm just you know, next thing, you know, like they're
accusing me a murder rate that means insane. Nineteen, you're
(07:03):
really still you're closer to a child than an adult.
But you don't have the sense to ask for a lawyer.
And this is something I tell people as often as
I can, because it's so important. If you do get
picked up for something you didn't do. First of all,
remember they're not your friends, right and they're not there
to help you in that situation. So you have to
protect yourself, and that means ask for a lawyer as
(07:25):
soon as you go in there and stop talking because
anything you say, like they said TV, anything you say
can be used against you, and it will be. And
then at that point you have a very adversarial relationship,
but purely adversary relationship. They want you to confess to something,
and which is amazing too. By the way you were
you were interrogated for twelve hours and you didn't confess,
and you were a teenager, so you don't confess twelve
(07:47):
hours go by? Now what Well? I took the polygraph
touse state. He threw me in a cop card, took
me probably like twenty minutes away to a state police barracks,
threw me in a room, gave me in his book.
So look through. The book tells you how polygraph it is,
how it works. What time is it now, Oh, it's
just started at noon. Now we're almost at eleven o'clock
at night. It's late, you know. So I didn't know
(08:09):
the pobably I heard of him. I never took one.
So they took all this stuff up to me, you know,
I'm already nervous wreck. You know, they're trying to blame
me for this for the last ten hours, harassing the
hell out of me. I'm like stressed out, aggravated, nervous,
you know what I mean. Like this is not this
is not good. You know what I mean, because a
polygraph test works on your nerves. So they asked me
(08:31):
some questions. I don't even remember half the questions. They
asked me, if somebody paid me to do this, do
you know soon? So I took the test, and I
remember they it was about half about an hour, and
I remember I was sitting in a small room and
they had a glass to Willia mirror in the cops
room behind there watching me as this guy that was
this guy He goes, I'm a professional. I do this
(08:52):
for a living. I polygraph doctors, lawyers, this, everybody. You know.
That's okay, I understand at your job. So we did
the polygraph and then on the way at the cops
brought me back to get my truck at the sheriff's
apartment and they go, I go, so now what, they go,
You're free to go home. Oh, they didn't tell you
if you pass it failed? No, so I get in
(09:13):
my truck. It's alf white, fingerprinted floor mats are out
of it. They've whatever, they destroyed it. So I went home.
I was living my mother still and she goes, where
you been? She was sleeping, you know, one o'clock in
the morning. I go, you gotta get up. I go,
we got problems there. She goes, what I go. They're
trying to blame me for this Kim Simon's murder. I says,
(09:34):
I was up there. She goes, where you been all day?
I said, have it up there for a little over
twelve hours. She goes, why don't you call me? I said,
I asked for a phone call. They don't even let
me nothing. So the next day, my mother we had
a family attorney friend, so we called him and I
told him the situation, and then he called the sheriff's apartment.
He said, well, they told him the polygraph came back
(09:54):
and conclusive. Is he willing to take another one? And
my lawyer that I had, he goes, no, he's not
taking another one. And it was about six months after
that they called my house and said, you are to
report over to the hospital for to give up blood
and hair. Six months have gone by six months after interrogation.
(10:15):
So after six months, you're in the clear. Yes, I'm
living my life. Ye I'm going to work. I had
a very unpleasant experience, but yes, yeah, it just okay,
you know. So I go up to me and my
moth drive up there. They take vowels of blood to
take care from all over my body, and I went home.
For the next three years, they fouled me, harassed me,
(10:37):
called my ex girlfriend up, interrogated her, asked all kinds
of stuff, What type of sex do I like this? That?
What type of person I am? Uh? My drugs do
I drink? All this, you know, crazy stuff, told her
parents that she keeps dating me, she's going to be
the next one, you know, all this crazy stuff, and
I go really, So it was um, three and a
(10:59):
half years later, after the official interrogation. I'm sitting home.
It was March. My girlfriend's birthday was gonna be on
the twenty nine. Me and my little brother and my
my girlfriend were sitting in my mother's house hanging out
watching Uh. Back in them days, MTV was good, you know,
with the videos. So we're watching and having a couple
(11:23):
of pops and my brother, you know, we're talking. All
of a sudden, there's a knock on the door. There's
the two investigators that interrogated me. They go, high, Steve,
can you do you remember us? I said, all could
I ever forget your ugly mug? You know what I mean?
You guys made my life as a morning I go,
what do you want now? They said, A couple of
people come forward and you're under the rest. So step
out of the house. My brother's flipping out, my girlfriend's crying.
(11:46):
I'm flipping out there. They cuffed me, stuffed me in
the car. I'm cursing. All the way to from my
mother's house to the sheriff's apartment is probably a ten
minute drive. They had about twelve police cars. All the
freaking guys are out, guns drawn. You know, It's like,
what the hell is going on? And I'm like, this
is insane. Bring me up to the sheriff's department and
(12:07):
the media is there, and they filmed the cameras getting
me out of the cop car, and the next day
in the papers, you know, we got the real murderer
of this. So I was in the county jail for
about two months and they finally gave me bail a
hundred thousands, So my mother put up her house and
I had a basic lawyer, but he wasn't too good.
(12:30):
My mother hired a prominent lawyer in here. He was
noted for He's been around a long time. And I
was out on bail about a year. I couldn't go
anywhere I had. I was like an house arrest. I
didn't wear a bracelet, but I just went to work
and came home. I couldn't go anywhere. It's couldn't go
to bars. You were probably infamous at this point, right,
I mean you've already been convicted in the media pretty much.
(12:51):
Oh yeah, they already had me, you know. I then
they had me seal and deal that was you know.
I mean if you oh yeah, they already said, yeah,
did you would get harassed, but oh yeah, I would go.
I would go to the store my mother, and then
people there's the scumbag barns at murder rapists, you know,
stuff like that. So I just ignored it. And the
cops used to follow me around, you know. And my
(13:12):
girlfriend was going to college not far from my house,
and they would sit in the parking lot. I would
go down and visit her and they would sit in
the parking lot and when I was out in bail,
they'd follow me around. And one day they were behind me,
and I stopped my truck and got out, and I said,
what's your problem? I go. You can follow me everywhere.
Me and my girlfriend went skiing. The officer was up
on the mountain skiing right behind us. They're following me
(13:33):
all around when I'm out the bail, and I'm like me,
I can't even go anywhere, you know what I mean.
And then I wanted to go to New York State
Fair and I was out on bail, and he said
I had to go to the judge to leave the county.
And I go to State Fair and I run into
the investigators there. I go to you guys, nothing better
than doing to follow me around. And so that went
(14:04):
on for almost a year and then I my trial
started in May of and UH picked my jury. In
my trial, I went through about seven people to get
a juror, and my juror was mostly elderly people. I
don't think that everyone. A lot of people back in
them days, they didn't really want to be on a jury.
They don't. I think they paid me like five or
(14:25):
eight bucks and jury duty. And my trial was m
all circumstantial. Um maybe perhaps it could have been. My
three main things in my trial was when I was
in a county jail for a few months. We call
him jail house rats. There was this guy I locked
on the gallery with me. I never spoke to him.
(14:48):
I knew who he was because when I was in
the county I didn't really talk to any guys, you know.
I stayed to myself. I didn't talk my case with nobody.
And this guy was a career criminal, was facing three
to nine years state for stolen credit cards, bad checks,
and he after I got on bail, the investigators went
and interviewed everybody on my tear and this guy said
(15:10):
that I was talking to him, and I admitted to
him that I said that I killed this girl. Yes,
at the conversation never happened. He got a time caught.
He ended up doing three three, three or four months
in the county jail and got sprung. He never got
his three to nine it was supposed to get because
he did them a big favorites. He lied. And then
(15:31):
when they searched my truck, this is what they called
junk science. They said there was a similar gene and
print on the side of my truck that was similar
to her type of pick. And the eighties there was
George Ash jeans and the style of the jeans was
imprinted on the side of my truck. They said it
was similar to hers. Well, they had this guy from
the gene company testify that with that type of pattern,
(15:54):
that type of gene, and that time frame that that
year they narrowed it down to three thou was in
pairs of jeans with that same pattern. So anybody saved
my truck was parking the parking lot and somebody was
at the grocery store bumped into side of my truck. Head.
What's today, they wouldn't use that in trial. They would
throw that right out. You know, it's called junk. That's
(16:15):
total junk, and it's ridiculous. I mean, I remember back
then Jordash is one of the most popular type of jeans. Yeah,
And it was the guy there and was talking about
the pattern he had all blown up and it was
so And then when I when I let him search
my truck, they found of hair and they said it
was similar to hers. It was similar to hers. It
was blonde, but your sister was blonde, right, I mean
(16:36):
so like, yeah, that's amazing. It was similar to hers.
That's great. Now this day and age, there's no such
thing as a similar hair. You know, it's your hair,
you know, wearing a lot more technology now. But and
then they took dirt from under my real roles in
my truck. Yeah, this is where it really blows my
mind that they said the dirt was similar at the
crime scene. The dirt was similar. Oh my god, but
(16:59):
dirt was I was my lawyer talked to somebody in
my whole county, like ninety five percent of the whole
county has sand in the dirt, and they asked me
where did you get the dirt on it? And behind
my mother's houice wee. We used to have a little
spot we hung out and we drove our trucks baked.
There was a little hangout for us neighborhood kids. And
I didn't wash my truck on a regular basis, and
(17:20):
I had I and dirt. So they had these jars
dirt like it was like a big thing. Like. So
the three types of circumstantial evidence, which each one is ridiculous. Right,
We're a gene imprint, which By the way, how good
of an imprint can a gene make on a car?
Let's just reflect on days and days or weeks later,
there's a gene imprint. That's that's ridiculous. Okay, that's number one.
(17:42):
You had the hair which was quote unquote similar to
the victims, right, A lot of people have similar hair.
It was blonde, right, Okay, so that's not really I mean,
that's pretty crazy. And then you have dirt, right. Dirt
is dirt, right. I mean I'm not a horticulturalist, but
(18:04):
and the idea that you're going to convict somebody and
sentenced them to years to life Jared dirt, it's similar.
It don't make sense. And then let's talk Stephen also
about the evidence in this case. There was call it
overwhelming evidence of innocence, right, And let's talk about those
scales of justice and the evidence that tipped in your
(18:26):
favor and why this should have been really a relatively
simple verdict for the jury to reach. Right. There was
there was the alibi. Right. So it was at a
bowling Alley had at night and had my bowl and sheet,
I had my buddy I was with, who left the
bowl and Alley went to a party. He testified his
parents owned the bowl and alley. They testified people that
(18:47):
were at the bowling alley in the bar with me
all testified. There was one guy at the bar that
was supposed to be a friend of mine, but he
was friends with the victims family, and he said that
I wasn't at the bar at the time. I said,
So you got forty something people saying I'm there at
this time, and they got one guy saying that I
(19:07):
wasn't there at that time at six o'clock thirty quarters six.
He said I was there later at seven. And it's
hard for me to believe that the jury would listen
to one guy over forty people that had the same story.
But that's not all. Then you also had the fact
that there was no physical evidence connecting you to the crime.
And then there was the tire tracks. Right, your car
(19:28):
doesn't match entire tracks. Now we're getting to something that
has an actual basis in science. Right. The sires are
a certain size. You can't change that size. You didn't
change the tires in your car that night. Did you
know it was a truck? You know, I had a
pretty good sized tread on it. And they said in
my trial that a lot of the tire tracks were
(19:50):
from the cop cars. My lawyer said, well, why didn't
shoot because they never took castings in nothing, And that's
what they said. They didn't take casting because there was
a few tracks when they first got at the scene.
But they didn't. Really these officers, I call him Mickey Mouse.
They were sheriffs. They go to a community college, they
get a two year degree and they give him a
(20:10):
badge and they think they're investigator of you know, they
think they're working for the FBI. They going on the
butt from a home to Columbo. Right. Yeah, so your
trial must have taken forever. It's seven jurors that they
had to if you, I mean, how long did all
that take? Picked the juror was a couple of weeks,
and then how long did the trial take? It was
almost a month. So this is three and a half weeks.
(20:32):
And I was saying earlier I had the junk science
and under was in jail house informant. Then I had
one other person. This guy was in Utica cop. He
was off duty. He said him back in Nive. He
didn't know what vehicle he saw or what person he
saw on the same road where they found her body.
He took the stand in my trial and he said
after three and a half years his mind got better
(20:55):
and he picked me and my truck out. And what
they did is they had a photo lineup of all
these differ from people and he said it was a line. Guy. Well,
my picture was the only one with blond hair. Everybody
else had different color hair. Then he had a lineup
of trucks. They had white trucks, they had they had blue,
different pickups. My truck was the only red, maroonish pickup truck.
(21:17):
That's what he saw. But he said he was going
down Mohawk Street at fifty mile and they said, at
the rate of speed, you only have so many seconds
to see a vehicle. Well, this guy said, he picked
out he saw on in front of my truck. He
had my license plate and then blow that it was
a GMC. I had another colorful plate that went underneath.
You know, it was a big thing in the eighties
(21:38):
and this kid thing and he said he saw that.
But if you look at my truck and you see
that GMC plate, you're going to see the license plate
right above it. It's like automatic, you know, it's like
one piece. He said he didn't see the plate number,
but his body was running for sheriff that year and
he wanted to be the under sheriff. So that was
a politics move, you know what I mean. He was
(21:59):
a incentivized way this too. It blows my mind that
everyone knows it's illegal to bribe a witness. You couldn't
have paid somebody to come in and go no, no, no, Steve,
definitely not. I saw him on the thing. Whatever. You
can't do that, that's totally You got a jail for that.
But the government can offer the best bribe in the
world in exchange for false testimony, which is they can
go to a guy like this guy who sounds like
(22:20):
a career scumbag, right, this guy stole over whatever his
name was testifying. Yeah. So so the idea that they
can bribe somebody like that with the you know, giving
them literally years and years of prison time to make
it just manage like a miracle. Do you think Steve,
that they knew that you were innocent. I think they did.
(22:41):
I think they wanted to solve the case. There was
a lot of pressure. Like I said, a early small
town murder rapes like that don't happen every you know,
it doesn't happen in my area, you know what I mean.
It was like this was the biggest story in a
long time, you know what I mean, ever since I
was a kid. I don't remember. Let me let me correct.
You know, they didn't want to solve the case. They
wanted to clear the out of the solid case. They
would have had to actually go back to the work.
(23:02):
It was on the news every day in the media.
I mean, they just kept it was never quiet. So
the jury goes out and how long did they deliberate?
For almost twenty four hours? That must have been one
of the hardest twenty four hours of your life. Yes,
the first day I went home after the jury, they
just you know, it was a quarter hour days they
(23:23):
went and I remember then the second day it was
home and buddy of mine, my couple of my buddies
around They go, yeah, I mean it was right before
Memorial Day and we're gonna go to a like a
festival party. Uh. They had field days in my area
of Fireman. It's like a carnival. My buddy was heah'
were going there tonight? I said, yeah, I said, everything's
(23:45):
gonna work out, And I haven't slept like along, you know,
since the jury went out. You know what I mean.
It's like, this is my life, you know what I mean.
They're trying to nail me to the cross for somebody
to do, you know what I mean. I'm like, I'm like,
this can't be happening, you know what I mean. I'm like,
I'm like Jock, and I can't even I went to
this trial, and so we got to call the jury's
back and we went to the courtroom, and um, me
(24:10):
and my lawyer, we walked in. I get a little
teary eyed some things. Um we uh yeah, thank you.
But every day during a trial, Um, the jury used
(24:31):
to look at me when I when I when I
was sitting there, you know, and people were testifying, the
jury used to look at me. We take a break,
come in and out in the jury est always look
at us, me and my lawyer. But that day we came,
you know, the jury came back and they wouldn't look
at me and my lawyer. We walked into courtboro when
they sit down and then they jury foreman gives the judge.
(24:51):
You know, we were you know, we reached a verdict
and they said please stand and they said guilty, and
I melted. But yeah, I was about to say this
day of my life. UM no, no, not sorry. I
(25:14):
get emotional about that. But my lawyer looked at me
and I've seen the theorical down Sonciety said I'm awful, sorry,
and I said, so they copped me, put me in judeo.
You know, we broke my bail and um, we tried
to get a retrial, and you know, my lawyer put
in different motions. He said, somebody on the jury knew.
(25:35):
Somebody testified and they investigated and they said no, it's
you know, nothing denied. So that was June two. The
verdict came back. I got sentenced in September. September two
and I went to court and uh, they gave me
(25:56):
the max. They life for murder, rape inside of me
and before the sattens me, I told the judge I'm innocent,
and my little sister jumped up in the courtroom side
you were over my brother because the d A said,
I didn't show any remorse because when my sister jumped
up and said, that's because he didn't do it, you know,
(26:19):
in the escortor out of the courtroom, and a few
other people shouted out some things and the judge says,
everybody's gotta be quiet, so they sapence me. Then, um,
eight days later, I was sitting in attica, Um, and
I remember the two officers that brought me up. They
you know, they talked ship to me the whole time.
(26:40):
He said, Uh, you're gonna be somebody's bitch in jail.
You know they're gonna get you because you're you have
a rape charge. What So No, I figured, you know,
I'm gonna be home a couple of years. It didn't work.
A couple of years turned into twenty years while you
(27:16):
were inside and some of these most violent, hellish places.
It really is hell on earth. How did you maintain hope? Well,
the main thing was on my family. They were my
main supporters. A lot of guys in person helped me
have any family, you know. And I know I didn't
do this, and I said, I'm going to fight to
(27:36):
the end and some day the truth will set me free.
And I never realized it would take twenty years, you
know what I mean? I thought, you know, but it did,
and then here you are and here I am on
the show. But like I always tell everybody, Um, hope.
You know, hope. In my family, it's all they had.
When I was in jail, I had my mother and
(27:58):
my brother and my sister. It's all I had. I
had one close friend, the guy I was with that
night at the bowling, and he came to visit me
a couple of times, but everybody else moved on. My
first six months up state, I told my girlfriend, I said,
go live your life. I don't know what's gonna happen
with me. She was year younger than me. I said,
(28:19):
go meet Mr Wright. You know, have I ever run
into you again? You know, I hope you do. I said,
you'd be happy, and she cried and I cried. So
I'm in jail, and you know, I never called it
my home or accepted it, but um I figured. You know,
my lawyer, my child law he did my appeals. Worth
(28:41):
Department in Rochester day shot my appeal down. Then I
tried to go to a Court of Appeals and they
denied me entry. And then six months after that, my
lawyer died of a massive heart attack at the age
of sixty. Another part of my luck. My lawyer dies.
The assistant the a that tried me, he died of
(29:03):
a massive heart attack six months after my lawyer died
of a heart attack. So I have sat dormant for
four or five years, bounced around from prison to prison.
You know, prison life was not good. I had a fight,
um strong, survived a week. It prayed on. You know,
I wasn't going to be the weak person to get
prayed on. And I lifted weights and I stabbed people.
(29:27):
You know, you're forced to live in an environment that
you not used to and people that you hate. And
it's just I tell people that I wouldn't wish prison
on my worst enemy, you know what I mean, It's
hell on earth. I've never been in trouble, and here
I am got a life bid and I'm like, I
don't know what I'm ever gonna get out of here.
Were you a tough guy when you went in? Like, yeah,
(29:48):
I was, you know, yeah, I didn't take no crap,
you know what I mean. I I wasn't old bully
or nothing. But um, then you're in there. There's a
lot of guys bigger and tougher than you. Oh yeah,
there's Yeah, there's just a lot of tough There's a
lot of big guys in there. And I lifted weights,
and you know I lifted a lot of heavy weights.
I was big. I want a lot of weight lifting competitions.
And we had TVs in the yard and um it
(30:11):
was I don't know, back in the eighties they had
the Phil down Who show. I remember the Phil down
Who Show. Well, there's these two guys on there and
their name was very Shock and Peter Neufeld, and they
had guys on there that they got out through DNA.
And this was like in and my mother watched the
same show. So I go, I'm gonna write them a letter.
(30:35):
I wrote a twelve pages followed third team page letters,
explained my whole case to them what happened, you know,
and they wrote me back questionnaire. They agreed to take
my case. So for a couple of years to get
the evidence, they came up, took my blood. We agreed
on a lab back in them days, my my head
(30:56):
to pay for the lab testing. The Innocent project was
very small. You actually talked to Barry on the phone
and it was about me, five or six law students
from Cordova and it was a real small operation operation.
It's not it like it does now. I mean it's
but they sent it to a lab and they had
the technology wasn't there. My mother came up and I
(31:16):
really thought it was going home, you know, I got
all excited, and I had about seven years and seventy
years by now, and she came up to visit me
and said, I'm sorry, but the DNA tests came back inclusive.
Our technology wasn't there like we have now. And plus
the way the law enforcement collected evidence back down, you know,
it was very sloppy. It it still is, but there's
(31:38):
no a lot of these cops they don't, you know,
they're not. They should train some people how to do
evidence and how they handle it, and they put some
kind of solution on the slides it breaks down DNA
and stuff. And we still don't have a national standard
for a storing of this evidence, which is insane. We
keep the evidence so we can find the guy, right that,
whoever did this to this poor girl, is this sick,
(32:00):
sick predator that needs to be off the streets. And
in order to someday have a chance to get that guy,
you gotta save the evidence. I mean, and I'm just
talking about your case. I thought about every case. So
they should they should absolutely be a standard practice that
everybody has to adhere to UM. And obviously that wasn't
the situation in your case. But go ahead, another setback,
another setback. So I got convicted. My lawyer Dice Peele's
(32:21):
shot down. Now in conclusive DNA. Now I'm like hopes.
I always tell people my hope, my candle. You know,
the flame was like really big, and now the flame
was just about out, you know what I mean. I'm like,
I'm hitting rock bottom. I go, I'm gonna die in here.
I got a life bed. I almost got ten years in.
I got another fifteen ago just to go to the
pro board. Um. If I went to the pro board,
(32:43):
I have to make gil I didn't do this. So
I'm gonna not dying here. Um. And they didn't have
the death penalty. Good thing, because they probably would have
executed me. So I always kept studying the law library,
and I bounced around from prison to prison. I was
in eight, eight or nine different maxes and throughout the
state of New York. And I kept busy, and I
always went to the law library, and I kept up
(33:03):
on DNA, you know, And then I followed up on
some cases guys that were that I did time with
were getting out in NICUs, and I remember reading about DNA.
It was a y S t R DNA testing. It
was a real new and touched DNA and that John
ben A Rains the case where people touched their clothes
they get DNA. So my brother, they had, my younger brother,
(33:27):
he drove down to Boston, Massachusetts. They had a conference
down there from the Alexonorees got out. So he went
down and talked to Barry and Peter were there in
a couple of honorees, and he says, I told him,
you worked on my brother's case like eight nine years
ago and it was inconclusive. Can you maybe re look
into it, because you know, technology has come a long way.
And so it was probably six eight months later. Maddie
(33:52):
alone called a prison. I was at an Elmira. Actually
the chaplain came to my cell, and I thought somebody
passed away, because I lost all my grandparents when I
was in prison. And I'm like, oh my god. When
the chaplain comes to your cell, you think automatically, think
you know, there's a death in a family or something
bad happen, you know, But the chaplain said, no, it's
good news. You gotta call the Innocent Projects. So I
(34:13):
called down and they said many bloms. She said, we're
taking on your case. So now I got about seventeen sixteen,
seventeen years and almost and I was thinking, I hope
they still have the evidence because in my area it's small.
They don't have the storage to close rape kits. You know,
(34:34):
they just throw your ship in a box, put it
on the shelf, you know, after your appeals and sometimes
they get rid of it. Well, they started to investigate.
They found the evidence, so I had to go through
the same process that I went through as years back.
So we agreed on a lab. And it was almost
(34:55):
two years after got the evidence they come up to
my Uh, the two investigators from the Sheriff's department and
a lady from the lab. Um my staff attorney from
the Innocent Project called and said they're gonna come up.
They're gonna squab. You don't talk to him, you know,
just do the thing, okay. So they came up. It
(35:17):
was the beginning of November, like this first week in
November of two thousand and eight. I went in and
the cops are going, uh, you know, how you doing, Steve?
I go, I'm doing good. You know while you're here.
I go, yeah, I requested you guys to be here.
I wrote to the Innocent Project and I requested DNA testing.
I go, you guys just didn't wake up one more
and say, you know, Steve Barnes innocent. We want to
get him out of jail. And they looked at me
(35:39):
and no, yeah, you're right. We were here because you know,
we worked for the d a's office. I see up.
So they swabbed me. You know, he did all that,
and they sealed everything, and I go, how long is
it gonna take? And they said about two weeks. I said,
I'll see in court. I walked out and it was
a little over two weeks. It was on Friday. It
(36:00):
was November twenty one. I used to call home talk
to my mother on Friday night and she was coming
up to visit on the weekend. And she says, the
Innocent Project wants you to call. So we locked in
at five. It was like four thirty quarter to five,
so I we had a lock in for child and
I we came back out at about six six. So
(36:22):
my mother ended up calling the Innocent Project because I
can't get on the phone, so I called my mother
after after child, she said, uh, my staff Starney name
was Alba morale As she's not with Innocent Project anymore.
About she asked my mother. She goes, it was right
before Thanksgiving, you know, she asked my mother, what are
you gonna do for Thanksgiving? My mother says, uh, I
(36:42):
always wish, you know, Steve wouldn't be home for Thanksgiving
because we really have them celebrated and Thanksgiving, her Christmas,
Arney Holidays for you know, two decades. And uh, she told,
my mother said, another dinner plate at the table, because
your son's coming home. And that was another time I cried.
But um, twenty years before that was tears of us sadness.
(37:03):
Now I had tears of joy and I was on
the gal arena, dropped the phone and I go, yeah,
I'm going home, you know, and not. So that was
good Friday, excuse me Friday, and my mother came up
excuse me that Saturday next day and the prison I
(37:27):
was in, I was there about six years, and the
CEO's knew me and my you know, she goes, my son,
you know, got his honor and he's coming home. So
they took me at the corps on Monday morning it
was now four So when I went to the court
the d A at the time of my trial, the
head d A. After my conviction, he got he got
(37:49):
elected as a judge. He was running for to be
a judge, so they couldn't put me in front of him.
And then, um, very shocky. He couldn't get a flight
out from the city down to the courtroom. So you
put me in the county jail for one more night.
So I had to go to court on crazy night. Yeah,
so they're like deciding what to do. I go. Listen,
(38:10):
I was found out on Friday night, on the twenty
one that I was innocent, and I've been in jail
and four more days. So they put me in the
county jail and every you know, I've been on the
news and you know, people are coming up to my
cell in the county jail. Yo, man, you know all
that time, Oh my god, you know, I could just
get away from my cell. I just want to chill out.
(38:31):
So I didn't really sleep much that night, and I
didn't sleep the whole weekend in jail and in prison,
and then I they brought me to court, you know,
and I remember that my mother brought up a suit,
I mean the property room, and I has to see. Oh,
I go, listen, we got a problem. He goes, what
I go? I forgot out to tie a tie. You
think you could help me out here? So he did
(38:52):
around his neck and he shook my hand, and then
they put shackled me all up. You know, pretty ridiculous
when you at it right, you've already been exonerated. What's
the point, yes or whatever? Yeah, I know, but you
gotta be an official in front of the judge. So
I going, and a social worker from the Innocent Project
was there. Um Angela. She came into the bullpen and
(39:14):
she says to you, I just want to let you
know there's like bazillion cameras people. I mean, there's tons
of stuff. She goes, when you're walking in there, it's
gonna be like co spotlights. And I'm like, okay. And
I was already exhausted. So they brought me in and
all shackled up, and I'm looking around and I'm like
seeing people I haven't seen in twenty years. And I'm like,
(39:34):
and that's my friend Mark. What happened to him? He's
all gray haired, you know, And I'm looking at all
my friends that I haven't seen him, Like wow, the
judge says, you know he's he says, you know about
the DNA testing and it excluded me and he vacated
my sentence. So they it took all the shackles off
and they could hear a pin drop in the courtroom
when they dropped everything, which and then people were crying
(39:58):
and my heart was going like forty miles an hour,
and I'm like, man, I was like, I don't have
a heart. I'm saying myself, don't ever heard to take
Now you're going home? You know what I mean? You
went through all this for twenty years. And I'm like,
so then we had a media friends and you know,
they're asking me all these questions and people were showing
me what a cell phone was, and take me back
for a second thing, so that shackles drop, yes, right,
(40:19):
and then what did you turn around? Did you just um?
You said you're free to go? When we went into
another room and uh, where was your mom there? And
this she was in behind me, sitting behind uh because
I was at a podium with Barry Shock and my
staff attorney and my mother was in a back row
and everybody else that was there. That is that the
first thing you did turn around to see your mom
(40:39):
or and you know, and I I just looked at
the judge and I said I didn't. I was just
like in awe, you know what I mean? And so
and then the media friends are starting all the questions.
And then I went to a nice restaurant, had a
nice meal for the first time, you know, and what
have I had a steak and a shrimp cocktail. And
(41:01):
I remember going up my mother's road where I grew up,
and I'm like, wow, Um, places that I hung out
were torn down. New places were put up, new houses,
different roads. There was a store called the Walmart that
I never heard of. The internet. Um. I had to
start my life over like a sixteen year old kid,
you know what I mean. When they exonerate you, they
(41:22):
just drop you off the courthouse. When you get prole
from prison, they give you money. An I D card.
I didn't have nothing, you know what I mean. I
called the prison my counselor. I asked him send my
soul security and all of my records. They go, you
can't have them. So I had to get every start over.
I had to get id to get an I D
so I had to get a birth certificate, so security card,
(41:44):
and I gotta picture. I d um learn how to
drive again, because when I first got in the car
years ago, he used to have a high beam on
the floor. Now it's like in a steering wheel. And
you got this high tech stuff digital it was quite different.
Technology was hard to deal with the Internet, and then
you got into texting and I set up an email
(42:05):
and they gave me a job with the county after
I got out about six months working with troubled kids.
And then I was working for re entry. I would
help guys that got out of prison, you know, try
to help finding jobs. And I did for about five years,
and then they quit the funding and then, yeah, why
would we need any funding to help guys who just
got out of prison find jobs? What possible? Good? Good like?
(42:27):
And I worked with troubled kids that you know, they
couldn't make it in the local high schools. They ever
got just by learning out of control, you know, as
you get a lot of satisfacts. Yeah, straightened some of
them out, but I set them down. But first when
they came into my group and it set him down,
I said, listen, I don't care how tough. You are
what you think you are. But this is what happened
in my life, you know what I mean. And they
would look at me, well, and everybody knows who I
am a small town, you know what I mean. It's like,
(42:49):
did they ever find the guy who did it? No?
They put the case on America Most wanted twice. Were
there any rumors around at the time that this happened?
The new investigators they after I got out, you know,
they used to we got me in at d A.
They used to call me over all the time, and
they had pictures of certain individuals and trucks that was
somewhere in mind. They asked me if I knew these
(43:10):
persons or whatever, and I didn't. And there was a
guy that was in prison for he kidnapped the girl,
raped her and the cop he threw in the trunk
and he went to prison for it. And he jumped
in the cops are chase him. He jumped in front
of a train and chopped his legs off. But he
was a person of interest in my case, um, because
after I got out there they were running DNA touching people,
(43:32):
you know, certain they got leads. People were calling mentioned
the names. Well there's certain individual that was in jail
and me. They took his DNA and he asked him
how long it would take to come back, and they
said about almost two weeks, and he committed suicide. Because
after I got out, my whole case, how my trial,
That isn't how it happened. That was like oh lie,
where they found her body? That was not worse. She
(43:55):
was murdered, they said in my trial, they said she
was murdered, raped and left there. That was she was
dumped off there. Um, she was at a party with
a bunch of individuals. There was males and females there
and it was a Satanic worship party. And all this
stuff came to light after I got out. Um, three
people called the D's office ad minute they led. The
(44:16):
new investigators tried to call. The old investigators are now
retired living in Florida. They didn't want to return their calls.
They wouldn't cooperate with them. Um, they went and seeing
the off duty cop testified in my trial, he said,
it's my story and I'm sticking with it, and get
out of my house, off my porch. And it isn't
it weird that it took that long for all this
stuff to come out. These are important facts. And then
(44:36):
they had the reports from the original cops. They had
leads on certain other people. The cops just pushed them
to the side and didn't even look into any of them,
didn't even acknowledge him. They just had liners on They go,
we want Steve Barnes and that's you don't care people
were calling, you know, leads on someone else. They didn't
(44:57):
even follow up a none of the way. Yeah, they
call that tunnel vision. And it's so tragic too, because
you know that, I mean, like the poor girl would
happen to her, should never happened to anybody. And the
idea that the guy who actually person we don't even
know who it was, maybe more than one person, will
never know. At this point, I was free to just
uh you know, live their life, whether they committed other
(45:19):
crimes like this. Again, we will also know that we'll
never know that our system so broken up it's insane,
you know what I mean. Like since I've been I've
been to Albany like a capital, probably fifteen times, you
know what I mean. And I finally about filming interrogations
now and how they do photo lineups. I went out
with Rebecca Brown and Albany for days on ends. You know,
(45:39):
I'd be out there for the whole day talking to
the Senators and assemblymens. And Rebecca Brown is the policy.
She would come to my area and I got involved
with my congressman and my assembly mom in my area,
and they were back in me and they you know,
we find if the if they had filming interrogation when
I went, when I got interrogated back down, and it
would be a different story. And it isn't a easy
(46:00):
New York state, right. We would think New York State
pretty advanced, right one of the I mean, you know,
we're way behind our mothering states were like ten years behind.
Rhode Island, Connecticut. Jersey State patched laws like just ten
years ago. We still don't have mandatory videotaping of interrogations
in New York State. It's unbelievable. In my county, my
DA he does them all to my case, she decided
(46:20):
to than to his credit. But the idea that we
do not mandatory videotaping of interrogations at this point, it's
totally inexcusable. And it's just it's a simple way to
reduce the number of rawful incarcerations and get more right ones.
I mean, there's just no explanation of any kind that
makes any sense when it comes to that. So let
(46:41):
me as see this before we wrap this up. Then
you know, there's a lot of years gone by now too.
But is there a worst experience that you want to
share with the audience from prison? And also was there
a moment beside the moment when you actually heard that
you were going home? Was there another moment that gave
you some some sort of joy or you know, a
(47:02):
renewed sense of hope. Well, it was a rough road.
I had a lot of ups and downs and I
never had any strong positive things that was gonna you know,
after I had the first DNA testing that was inconclusive,
it kind of like I didn't know when I was
coming home, you know, I thought it was over. I
(47:22):
I literally gave up hope towards at one point. So
that was the lowest point. Yeah, But I guess the
one thing I wanted to ask was there one moment
of you know, in prison, was there somebody who actually
showed you some sort of kindness that wasn't expected. Yeah?
I had a few, you know, there was good cops
and bad cops. I had some good officers, you know.
(47:43):
I told a couple of officers you know my situation.
They believed in me. And when I was in prison,
I worked with a lot of civilians. I worked maintenance,
and I got pretty tight with what few of my civilians,
you know, and I told my story and um, actually
when I was when I got out, the maintenance supervisor
gave his phone number. You such need call me when
you get out, and you're welcome to come to my house.
(48:05):
And they always gave it looked out for me and there,
you know, he gave me nice jobs and uh, somebody
to talk to, you know what I mean. I didn't talk.
I had a few guys that hung out with that.
We worked out together. We had our little crew, you
know what I mean. And you just you know, he
didn't talk to your business with a lot of people,
but you just uh, um, I just they made me
(48:25):
uh you know, I was having a bad day my boss,
you know, you know it was you know, I talk
with him. You know, he goes, you know, you're having
a bad day. We won't do much today or whatever.
And when my family came up to visit me, and
they gave me a nice feeling. And what about I mean,
I know you talked about when I saw the video,
you talked about being tear gast, being stabbed, being in fights,
being in riots. I mean, was there one experience that
(48:50):
you may not want to share it, but if there was,
was there one experience that was like the worst? Of course?
Um it was probably a nineties seven and green Haven
crusts soil I was. They were starting to build double
bunks and I was a welder and they wanted me
to well double bunk cells and I refused, so I
was keep locked and they took us out of our
(49:11):
black for key black rack. They let you all for
one hour a day. And I was an H black
lower H. And there was one of the other key
blocked inmates. The cells beat him down. We hear him screaming,
and we're lining up in the hall with a sergeant
and they said, uh, you guys, take it to the
yard and we said, screw you, we ain't moving. He
(49:31):
just beat down one of the you know, we're not moving.
He said, I'm giving you another order to move and
he said, no, we are moving, you know. So in
prison we call him orange Crushed. I called them Nina turtles,
the guards with all the pads and right gear. They
came marching down the hall and I looked at the
guy next to me, I said, this is that I go,
do or die? I go, I'll talk to you later.
(49:54):
I go on, We're gonna make it out here alive.
And they came down and just started wailing on all.
You know, when we pretty well broken up, and they
shipped me up up north, you know, and I sat
in reception and all burned for like two weeks without
a shower and nothing. They lost my property. You know,
I thought it was like I was gonna die there
(50:15):
that day. It's probably one of my scariest times in prison,
you know, besides the first day I walked in there.
You know, when I walked in there one day, I'm
I'm packing my cell and this guy says, hey, white boy,
you know you're gonna be my bitch in prison. All
this I don't know. And I took them off ringer
and I spun around. I blasted right side the head
with it, you know what I mean. And that's the
(50:37):
way it is, you know what I mean. The strong survive.
You know, you can't say, can I think about this
and let this guy talk to me or take my
stuff prison. If you touch me or you touched my stuff,
you're gonna get stabbed or you're gonna die, or that's
the way it is. You're not gonna get punked down,
even though wind loser draw. If you you gotta stick
(50:57):
up for yourself, you know what I mean. If you don't,
you know, you're gonna be a chump punk Literally it is.
It sounds literally like Shawshank redemption, unbelievable. It's just for
people listening now, they're probably thinking this is horrible, like
what happened to you is? It's it's a crime against humanity,
(51:18):
what happen to you? People are listening, they're going what
can I do to help? Right? People want to get involved.
They're gonna hear your story and it's gonna be that
reaction probably plus plus. So what would you say to
your average person is out there listening and one of
the states out there wherever they listen or around the world,
what could people do to get active to help with
this situation? Well? I always tell people who are in
(51:39):
my area and stuff there, you know, some project they
give me my life back. You know what I mean, yeah,
you don't realize people don't really really look about, you know,
the daily life. You know, little things in life like
going to the store, going here in prison. You're you're
like a programmed person, you know. You get up at
a certain time every more and you're told what to do,
seven do your after year, you know, And I tell people,
(52:02):
you know, I didn't know it would take twenty years
prove my innocence because I thought I'd be out after
a couple of years. But day's turn into weeks, weeks
turns into months, months turn into years, and years turned
into decades of loneliness. You know. But but you didn't
give up when you had every reason to give up.
Freedom is a lot to me now, you know, like
(52:23):
years ago. You know, when you're on the street growing up,
you don't think you know everyday life. But when you
you swept away and your life's taken away and then
you get your life back. And but I just want
to say I would donate to the Innocent Project, you know,
because um, there's what happened to me. There's hundreds of
guys after me. I've been out tore almost ten years
next year, and I was number two hundred and twenty
(52:45):
seventh in the country. Now they're up to three hundred
and fifty something. And I was twenty four in New
York State and now they're at the thirty something. You know,
I mean, what happened to me, It could happen to anybody,
and it happens all the time. I mean, there's hundreds
of guys in prison there worse off to me, doing
a lot more time to me. Um. But you know,
the Innerstan Project needs money, you know, it's carry on
(53:07):
with this, you know what I mean? Like my testing
loan in my case was fiftys you know what I mean.
And I want to point out something to Steve, and
you're a perfect example. This the legislative changes, right, and
the procedural changes that the Inscence Project has been behind,
and compensation statutes like in Kansas where we finally just
got a compensation statute passed, right. You know, these changes
are seismic shifts, and these are this is the macro
(53:31):
side of the work, right. The micro side is you,
even though nothing micro about you, You're a big guy,
but you know, but the micro side is the individual cases.
The macro side is where a lot of your dollars
go if you donate to the Innocence Project like I do,
like Steve does, you know your money is going to
affect change that may actually impact you, or your community
or somebody you love in a very real way. Because
(53:52):
when these changes are made, the odds of you know, you,
yourself or a loved one becoming the next Steven Barnes
go down dramatically. And we're not going to stop. We're
just gonna keep going and going until we make this
system as close to perfect as it can be. It
will that would be perfect, but we can we can
make a lot, a huge difference, a lot of changes
feel better, and we are doing that. And now now
(54:13):
you're you've got a lot of stuff going on, right,
I mean, now you've been out for a while, you're
you're nine years, you're living your best life now, living
to dream. Yeah. I tell people I get up every
mornings like Christmas morning. You know, Stephen, we have a
tradition here at Rawful Conviction. I think people really look
forward to this part of the show because this is
the part where I shut up and I basically just
(54:33):
turned the microphone over to you so you can close
out with any thoughts you want, all Right, I just
want to say, uh, after all these, all these twenty
years that I did in prison, Um, I finally got
my life back. And uh, I can't say it enough
things that you know, some project, they believed in me,
they fought for me, they reopened my case, and they
(54:55):
gave me my life back. I didn't have a life
for twenty years. You know, I had kept a lot
of whole hope and I just I'm so happy and
what happened to me, It's probably happened a lot of
other people I know, but I hope it doesn't continue
to happen in the future. And I just hope that
between me and people on the outside world continue to
(55:17):
donate to this project and help free to Innocent and
try to better the system, because our system, you know,
since I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways,
but it's still broken, and we need people like like
all of us a desonaries get together to change laws
and the Innocent Project and people on the street to
contribute and helped us whold you know, this Freedom Act
(55:41):
to you know, progress on. And you know, I've been
out nine years, it feels like I've been out for
a lot longer. When I was in prison for all
them twenty years. It was like days dragged, you know,
I mean, out here so much to do. Um, I
can't't even imagine, uh, how to explain my freedom. You
(56:01):
know what my freedom is like so awesome. Now I
can do what I want, come and go as I please.
I don't have nobody telling me what to do, what
time to go to bed, what time to eat, you know,
turn your light off, wake up at this time. You
know what I mean. When I first got out, I
took a walk in the woods, you know, breathing fresh
air and joined life. It's just I'm having a lot
(56:26):
of fun now, and um, I just want to thank
the Innocent Project. I don't want to thank you for
having me on the show. And I look forward to
uh living a great future. I hope I lived to
be another fifty six years. I don't have any stress anymore.
I just I'm on top of the world now. Well
that's awesome, and you know, you know, I want to
(56:48):
wish you all the luck in the world. And I'm
gonna thank you again for coming in and being here
with us and sharing your story, and thank you for
having me. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review.
(57:11):
Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm
a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really
hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause
and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence
Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.
I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and
Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is by three
(57:34):
time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at
Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a
production Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company
Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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