April 13, 2020 • 34 mins
COVID 19 has derailed our normal lives into that of isolation, restricted movement, anxiety, despair, and even the threat of death. Jason Flom knows a lot of people that have an intimate knowledge of all of these things and how to cope with them.
In the first interview of a new mini series from Wrongful Conviction Podcasts Jason Flom speaks with Damien Echols, a man who spent 18 years on death row for a crime he did not commit.
Damien tells us how he used exercise, art, structure, mental focus, and free will to not allow isolation and fear to break him plus, an epiphany that came from one man’s deadly encounter with a can of corn that continues to guide him even through our current shared reality in this time of COVID.
Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to a brand new mini series, Wrongful Conviction with
Jason Flam In the time of COVID. You know, COVID
nineteen has totally derailed our normal lives and spun us
into a new strange world of isolation, restricted movement, anxiety, despair,
and even the threat of death. And it occurred to
me that I know a lot of people that have
(00:24):
an intimate knowledge of all these things and much much worse,
and they know how to cope with them. So I've
asked a few of my friends to share their very
unique experiences to help guide us all through these rough
waters that they know all too well. My hope is
that all of us can gain some perspective, knowledge and
value from their triumphs over tragedy. Today, we'll talk to
(00:47):
a man who did eighteen years on death row for
a crime he didn't commit, during which he spent over
twenty three hours a day locked in a tiny six
by nine ft cell, all while waiting for the state
of our can saw to set his execution day to
take his life. He'll tell us how he used exercise, art, structure,
mental focus, and free will to not allow isolation or
(01:10):
fear to break him. Plus an epiphany that came from
an encounter he had with a man who had actually
beaten someone to death with a can of corn, an
encounter that continues to guide him even through our current
shared reality in this time of COVID. We've interviewed it
before and touched on his story again through one of
his co defendants, Jason Baldwin. Their story is so totally
(01:35):
insane that we even spend time with documentary and Joe Burlinger,
who first covered their story as it was originally unfolding
before he and his friends became known as the West
Memphis three. I encourage you to check out season two,
episode eight, Season seven, episode five, and season eight episode
twelve to hear how the state literally pointed to I
(01:57):
kid you not heavy metal music and to even King
novels as quote unquote evidence along with a false confession
to convict them for the murder of three young boys
in the woods. A deeply religious community just knew it
had to be Satanism or something like that, and it
had to be that boy who wore Metallica T shirts. Today,
(02:18):
we'll talk to one of my personal heroes has become
a dear friend, Damian Echols, about coping in the time
of COVID. Very Damian, welcome back. Thank you so much
for having me. It actually feels really nice just doing
(02:39):
this again. Well, it's really good of you to do it,
and I know a lot of people will take comfort
from learning what you have to say as they endure
this very bizarre and troublesome time that we're all living
through together. So, first of all, Damian, how are you
and Laurie doing? Kind of really well? Actually, as strange
as that sounds, you know, for everything that's one on
(03:00):
in the world, especially here in you know, New York City,
but I think, uh, this, this kind of life was
something that I got used to, you know, when I
was in prison. I got used to having to focus inwardly,
so I wasn't as dependent upon outside stimulus as as
most people who have never been put into that situation are.
(03:23):
So I find myself almost returning to the things that
helped me cope with prison life out here and realizing
that those things are actually really good for me. Well,
you know, I've heard you talk about this stuff before,
but for this special episode, can you just touch on
how you adapted and what were some of the things
(03:44):
that allowed you to maintain your sanity in the most
insane situation imaginable. I honestly, I think the number one
thing that helped me stay sane is figuring out that
I could not live for the future. And I think
that's really important right now to, you know, not to
constantly torture ourselves thinking about when is quarantine going to
(04:07):
be over? When is normal life going to return again?
Because I honestly think the world is probably going to
change after this. I don't think we'll ever go back
to the same world that existed before this quarantine uh
came about? Um Also, I should probably say for me
(04:28):
in prison, uh, you know, really what it came down
to for me was having to create a life for
myself in that environment. So I didn't drive myself insane
constantly wondering when is this going to be over? Am
I ever going to get out? Are these people going
to eventually kill me? How is this situation going to end?
My saving grace in there was that I was able
(04:52):
to create a life, And I think a huge part
of that comes from giving yourself something to focus on
other than you troubles. If you constantly take in media
that's telling you things that's making you scared. And that's true,
whether it's talking about the disease that's going on right now,
the pandemic that's going on, or whether it's you know
(05:13):
you're possible upcoming execution date. You can't sit around dwelling
on that stuff. Are you are going to stew in
fear and misery. You have to give yourself other things
to look at and focus on. You have to create
a world for yourself and a life for yourself and
for for me in prison. Uh, you know, part of
(05:35):
it was also structuring my days. And that's one of
the things I've tried to share with people out here
is you know, we've all heard that it's helpful to
stay on a schedule, but a lot of people that's
that's an abstract concept or an abstract theory. We're like, okay,
stay on a schedule, but what sort of schedule? What
does a schedule mean? It helps if you give people,
(05:55):
like really concrete things that they can do for me.
Those things in prison and out here were things that
don't sound amazing but have tremendous impacts on your psyche,
on the way you view the world. For example, cleaning
you know somebody whenever I first got to prison told
me the very first person I ever talked to, he said,
(06:17):
you can either sit in the cell and stagnate and
go insane like most of the people here, or you
can choose to turn your cell into a monastery, keep working,
keep developing. That's what I chose to do, just because,
you know, when I looked at the other lives around
me in that environment, to be quite honest, that it
kind of horrified me to see, you know, people uh
(06:39):
who were the same after they had been in prison
for fifteen or twenty years that they were whenever they
walked in the door. And I thought, I do not
want to fall into that trap. So I set myself
a schedule to create time. You know, there's no time
in prison. There you have no appointments to keep or
places to go or anything like at So I tried,
(07:02):
to the best of my ability to live my life
exactly the way I would if I were in a
monastery of my own free will. Some of those things
included cleaning, you know, like getting down on your hands
and knees and scrubbing the floor, scrubbing the walls out here.
That's really helpful because not only does it you know,
maintain a schedule, give you something to do, something productive
(07:24):
and constructive to focus on. But it's also helpful for
battling the pandemic, the virus that's going on right now,
for keeping yourself and your family clean. Another thing in
there is exercise. You know, for me, I was in
a tiny cell. I had just enough space to do
push ups, sit ups, jumping Jack's. Once I'm out here,
now what I've been doing for exercises. I put on
(07:45):
a backpack full of weights, and I live in a
three story building, so I run up and down the
stairs quite a few times a day with a backpack
full of weights on. You know, you don't have to
go out and go to the gym, but if you
keep your body in shape or you know, in reasonable
working condition, that is going to go a long way
towards mental health as well. If you start feeling bad physically,
(08:08):
you're going to start feeling bad mentally and emotionally too eventually.
So just things like cleaning, things like exercise. Reading. You
know a lot of people will say I hate to read.
I always say there is no such thing as a
person who hates to read. There are only people who
have not found books that they love, yet they were
forced to read things that maybe they didn't like. Even
(08:30):
if you think that you don't like to read, start
looking for books about subjects that may interest you and
start delving into those. Uh. There's a million little things
you can do to keep your mind occupied that are
productive and constructive. Uh, and that will prevent you from
degenerating into this constant state of fear. I'm so glad
you brought up exercise about all the other things, and remember,
(08:53):
there are a lot of assets that we can all
find online. Since my friend Adamaste has a gym class
that he does online Adam Rossante r O S A
n t E. He has a YouTube channel and he
does a thing for kids as well as adults, but
he has a special thing for kids to keep them
motivated and help prevent them for going stir crazy in
the house. So you can find these things and they're free.
(09:16):
There there are exercise routines you can do with your
own body weight that you don't need to go to
a gym. So, you know, I have so many other
questions for you, Damien. You know, it's really interesting to
me the dichotomy between what you endured and what others
are enduring now, and you talk about how you had
to sort of stay focused on the present. You know,
(09:36):
you had nothing to look forward to after all, whatsoever,
except more of the same misery and then your own death.
So for people out here, it's a very different scenario
because they're looking forward to going back to their routine,
whatever that might be their job, their school, their daily
their daily life. Um, I mean, can you give advice
(09:58):
to to us, the to all of us out here,
or does the same advice apply. I honestly think it's
probably the same advice. You know, I'm looking back at it,
I understand why most people would think that that's how
my life was in there, But honestly, there were entire
weeks would pass when I wasn't even thinking about the
fact that I was imprisoned. It didn't even register to
(10:20):
me anymore because I was so involved in what I
was doing, and either what I was creating through various
artworks or through my own spiritual and meditation practices. I
was experiencing tremendous amounts of growth that excited me, made
me happy, gave me something to look forward to. I
was always, you know, excited about, well, what's gonna come next.
(10:44):
The the outside world probably wouldn't see any of those
things because they were all internal things. Uh. It reminds
me of one of the quotes that I always bring
up is when Timothy Leary was in prison at one point.
Timothy Leary was a guy who did all of the
LSD experiments, and at one point they put him in
a federal federal prison and Ramdas went to visit him,
(11:07):
and ram Das tells him, Uh, we came up with
a plan a way that we're going to break you
out of here. And Timothy Leary says, no, you can't
do that. I've got too much work to do. That's
how I started to feel, probably, I would say, within
the last couple of years that I was in prison.
You know, I wasn't thinking about an execution date or
(11:28):
or what the state was doing, or it just kind
of faded away for me. I think whenever you find
what you're supposed to be doing in life, it kind
of consumes you. It becomes your life's work. Your life's
work becomes your life. I discovered what my life's work
was really early. Fortunately for me, with the more I
(11:49):
poured myself into that, the less I cared about what
was going on around me externally, and you were deprived
of all the creature comforts. And I think a lot
of people are experiencing different degrees of that too. You know,
so many people are going through food shortages. They also
may be experiencing, you know, even lack of basic necessities
(12:11):
like toilet paper. You hear about outages everywhere, and you know,
I sensed it. For a lot of people, there's less
joy in their day to day life. I feel in
conversations I have, there's less joking going on. There's less
levity in general. There's this feeling of just heaviness, you know,
in New York where we are, and I've lost two
(12:33):
friends of this virus already, and everyone seems like they
know somebody who's who's gone. People are hearing sirens in
the middle of the night, ambulances racing people to the hospital,
and it feels like there's a collective heaviness. And Damian,
I've heard you tell one particular story about a crazy
experience you had on death Row that allows you to
(12:55):
see the levity through the almost absolute darkness, you know,
the one with the guy who had murdered somebody with
a can of corn. He actually turned I remember you
saying he turned a vegetable into a deadly weapon. Can
you tell that story? Uh? There was a guy that
was in the cell next to me at one point
for a couple of years, and this guy was pretty
(13:16):
pretty severely schizophrenic. You know, he would come in and
out of reality a lot. There are times when you
could talk to him and he would be completely coherent.
Other times you would talk to him and and nothing
that came out of his mouth would be connected to
reality in any way whatsoever. But there was a time,
you know, a lot of times in the prison you
would have the sewage would back up, and whenever that
(13:37):
would happen, you'd end up standing in like ankle deep
sewage sometimes for a couple of days at a time
while they had to try to fix the system and
clean everything up that was going on. One time, Uh,
you know, the sewage had backed up. Everybody's miserable, and
whenever that happens, you know, to to kind of understand
the full impact of what's going on, You're standing in
(13:59):
ankle deep raw sewage while you try to eat. You
are holding your tray in your hand, standing with your
feet and ship while you try to eat. I can't
even begin to articulate like the levels of misery that
you can experience in an environment like that. But this
(14:19):
guy in the cell next to me, the schizophrenic guy,
he had to actually beat someone to death with a
can of corn when he was on the street. We're
standing there in this ankle deep sewage, and he starts
singing that Leonard Skinnered song. Can you smell that smell?
And whenever he did, I just, you know, just the
absurdity and the outrageousness of the situation that I was
(14:41):
in kind of hit me really hard all at once,
and I couldn't stop laughing. And I asked the guy,
I said, you know, I understand, Okay, we're in this
hellish environment, these people are trying to kill us. But
at the same time, don't you still have moments of fun?
Aren't Aren't there still times when you're enjoying your life?
And he looks at me and says, hell, no, what
(15:03):
the funk is wrong with you that you would even
ask me something like that. But for me, I kind
of I never really lost that. Thankfully they were still
I was still always able to find things that I
enjoyed in there. But I mean, I know exactly what
you're talking about out here because you can, you know,
in New York. I have never felt New York like
this before. The only way that I can even come
(15:24):
close to describing what it's like, you know, when we
hear about quarantine or lockdown or what's the other word
they're calling it self self isolation. Uh. You know a
lot of times in other states, people live in in houses,
they have yards, they have cars that they can drive
somewhere and go on a hike. Most people in New
York have none of that. You know, most people in
(15:45):
New York don't even have a car unless they're incredibly wealthy,
So it's not like they can escape all of this.
And the only way I can describe the environment here
right now is it feels the way the city does
when you're in the middle of a bulle wizard in
the dead of winter and everything comes to a halt,
everything comes to a stand still. But this is even
(16:10):
more profound than that. It's like we are in the
center of a hurricane that we can't even see, can't
even feel, but you can something in you still registers
the fact that something is going on around you. New
York I think is an incredibly special place, just because
(16:32):
it's not just a place that people here live. It's
like a character in our lives, you know. We we
deal with the city the way we would deal with
a person. That's how present it is in our lives.
It's it's almost like a force of nature, or like
a goddess made of concrete and collisions of energy and steal.
(16:54):
That's happening all the time, and everybody here has a
kind of symbiotic relationship with the city. Whenever the city
grinds down, whenever it's hurting, whenever the city's heartbreaks, it's
like everybody else that lives here our heartbreaks at the
same time. Whatever the city is experiencing, it's almost like
every individual within the city is experiencing on a smaller,
(17:19):
micro cosmic level. So whenever the city shuts down, it's
like our lives shut down. UM. I do still believe
with all my heart that somehow, some way, something good
will come out of all of this. I don't know
what it is. I don't know when it would be
or how it will take shape, but I really do
believe that as hard as this has been, something amazing
(17:42):
will still come out of it in some way. I
wanted to ask you, Damian. You mentioned that you feel
like we're never going to return to the same idea,
the normal, and paraphrasing what you said instead more eloquently
(18:03):
than that, But what will be the differences in your view? Honestly,
I can't see it. You know, we're too we're too
far away from the world that we're all going to
re enter again right now. Uh, there's still a lot
of stuff, a lot of time that has to pass.
But you know, a lot of times when we think
of things like destruction, we tend to equate it with evil.
(18:25):
In some way, I think that is an entirely human concept.
I don't think the universe views things in black and white,
good and evil. It views things as as all things
are sort of necessary in order to continue the act
of creation, including destruction. There's an old man that lived
next door to me. He's an old blind man, and
(18:46):
he sits out on his stairs every day and listens
to audio books so we can feel the sun on
his face. And one day he said, I can't even
This was a couple of years ago, so I can't
even remember what started the conversation, but he was talking
about the word odd, and he said it stands for generate, order,
and destroy, because those are the three things that the
(19:08):
universe does. Those are the three stages we we go through.
The universe generates forms, and then it orders them, puts
them in in specific orders. But as soon as those
orders start to stagnate, as soon as growth is no
longer possible, then it's absolutely necessary for it to introduce
(19:28):
destruction into that environment and tear it down so that
a new round of generation and creation can start. And
I honestly think that's kind of where we're at in
the world right now. I think we are in this.
In alchemy, they call it the calcination phase, where everything
kind of gets destroyed, reduced, uh, turned to ash, And
(19:49):
that has to happen sometimes before we can start to rebuild.
You know, if you're gonna build a building, you have
to tear the old building on that site down before
you can build a new one. I think in a
lot of ways, our lives will change, even if it's
just people, uh, you know, being more prepared for something
like this to come in the future. Um, but I
(20:09):
really do think this is going to have an impact
on our psyches, on our collective psyche, on our collective consciousness,
maybe even to the point where we come out of
this and we're more thankful and more grateful for the
things that we do have because we've seen what it's
like whenever they disappear. So maybe this just turns us
into a more appreciative, grateful, unified society or culture. Like
(20:35):
I said, I don't know what shape it will take,
but I do have faith that in some way something
good will come of it. That's a great sort of
um affirmation. It's a very interesting time in so many ways.
I think even relationships are being developed and probably torn down,
(21:00):
probably tested right at a greater rate than normal. I
think that there is a real reset happening across the board. UM.
I did want to ask you a Damien space, right, So,
by and large, well, there's two different aspects to this,
and I'm interested in your take on both. One is,
(21:21):
you have people who are listening who are now confined
to a relatively small space, a small apartment with quite
a few people possibly in it, maybe extended family. And
you have other people who are alone, like really alone
for the first time where they can't have visitors and
they can't have even family members come. Some of them
(21:45):
are elderly. Um, what what advice can you give them?
As far as that you know, and I'm sure must
feel like the walls are closing in on people. I
would say the best advice that I could give about
that would be to, to the best of your ability,
(22:06):
surround yourself with things that make you look up, things
that inspire you, things that make you feel good. And
it could be anything from hanging photos on your wall
that that bring back good memories to like you were
saying while ago, You've got a lot of people out
there right now offering all sorts of amazing stuff on
the Internet, and a lot of it is absolutely free.
(22:28):
You know. Just for example, here in New York, the
street y m c A is doing this thing where
for five dollars you can go onto their website and
they are broadcasting symphony orchestras here throughout the city playing
concerts and you can hear these amazing symphonies and concerts
by you know, divor Jack or or Beethoven or whoever
(22:51):
it is for five dollars. You know, when you're looking
at something like that, most of the time your troubles
and your hardships and your problems are going to be
the last thing on your mind when you are looking
into the face of something that you find beautiful. If
you keep your eyes focused on things that are beautiful
and meaningful and rich and and do something for you personally,
(23:17):
you're feeding yourself. That's that's literally spiritual sustenance. You are
feeding your soul. And the more you feed your soul,
no matter what the environment is like, the better you're
gonna come out of it. So I would say, if
you are at home, like you were saying earlier, use
the internet. You know, there are people out there right
now giving you know, free yoga classes, courses on everything
(23:40):
from astrology to taro to uh how to cut your
own hair, you know, which is a thing that a
lot of people are dealing with. Just because there are
no barbershops, no beauty salons, you can learn all sorts
of amazing things or immerse yourself in beautiful, rich environments,
(24:01):
even if you're trapped in one room. Is there a
particular book or um, even a particular piece of music
or any other creative work, I should say that really
inspired you and that you think may help to inspire
other people. As they live through this. Maybe inspire isn't
(24:23):
the word, but I actually I think it kind of is.
But you'll see why whenever I say this that I
hesitated for a minute when I use that word, just
because whenever we say the word inspire, we tend to
think it has to be something serious, you know, something
where where there's no laughter involved, where you know, almost
like going to church or something. For me, one of
(24:44):
the things that inspire me I have been going back
and rewatching old reruns of one of my favorite TV
shows of all time. It was what this show called
My Name Is Earl with Jason Lee, and it's about
this guy who made a list of every bad thing
he had ever done to it in his life to anyone,
and decided he's going to go down this list and
(25:06):
make whatever he had done right to whoever he had wronged.
And it's one of those things that I will sit
there and watch this show and just laugh out loud
for for half an hour at a time. And whenever
I'm watching this and I'm laughing at it, and I'm
enjoying myself and enjoying my life, Um, I'm not thinking
(25:27):
about my my hardships. Somebody told me one time that yes,
you have to dedicate yourself to uh you know, development
and growth and all these sorts of things, but at
the same time, you can't lose the ability to appreciate
a good joke, because humor is a big part of
what makes life worth living. Find something that makes you
(25:50):
laugh and maybe watch that or listen to that or
read that. Right, there's so much great comedy online as well.
I mean, I know, I love Louis Black and Ross
is one of my favorite comics, and um, you know,
there's so many wonderful comedians. So yeah, that's a great idea,
and I'm gonna watch My Name Is There All. That's
an amazing plug. I'm excited to actually tune into that
(26:12):
tonight because I'm watching too many documentaries and too many
heavy stuff and I feel like I can use that
escape too, So thanks for the recommendation. Um, and of
course there's always you know, curb your enthusiasm sort of
my default when I really need, when I need something
ridiculous to turn to. It's, uh, it's that's that's an
easy and easy escape. Um JBS movement like every time,
(26:35):
and so that's uh, Susie essmanimetually hope it's about it
makes me laughing. Well, Damien, listen, UM, I can say
that I miss you guys. I'm looking forward when this
is done to going out for one of our our
(26:56):
wonderful dinners that we have time to time. And please
please give a big hug to your wonderful wife Lorie
for me. And um, and now, um, you know, I
think all that's left here is for me to first
of all, thank you again for inspiring me and all
of us on a daily basis, and particularly for sharing your, um,
(27:20):
you know, your perspective with our audience, UM, which I
think is going to really have a wonderful impact on
a lot of people. And uh, and then um, you
know this is always the part of the show that
I enjoyed the most, which is the part where I
get to actually just turn my mic off and kick
back and close my eyes and listen to whatever you
(27:43):
have to say that you haven't said already. So to
close out this episode, UM, thanks again, Damien. And now
words of wisdom, Damian Nichols, The floor is yours. I'm
not sure how much these qualify as words of wisdom,
but I guess what I really just want to say
to everyone who's going through quarantine right now, who is
(28:04):
in self isolation, is thank you for doing this. Uh.
I'm myself, as well as many many other people, uh
fall into the category that that they call high risk.
You know, I spent almost twenty years in prison. I
did not have adequate nutrition, no sunlight, no fresh air.
I was breathing in tear gas for almost twenty years,
(28:26):
and it caused a lot of devastating and lingering effects
to my respiratory system. Uh. So I'm just really appreciative
for how serious everyone is taking this and how everyone
is kind of battening down the hatches and dealing with
it even when they don't want to. Because you are,
whether you know it or not. You know, when we
(28:48):
think of saving people's lives, we tend to think of
these big, heroic scenarios. Sometimes they're not like that at all.
Sometimes you can save lives by just doing a tiny,
tiny thing like staying home and watching reruns of your
favorite comedy and uh trying to enjoy yourself a little bit.
So thank you, thank everyone listening to this so much
(29:10):
for doing whatever you can to save lives. Mine included.
This episode was so it was such an amazing experience
for me listening to Damien, Well, I could. I could
listen to Damien for hours anytime, because he's just such
a he's such a deep thinker, he's such an eloquent guy,
(29:33):
he's such a strong um. You know, it's just sort
of ethereal presence and his perspective on how to manage
this bizarre new reality that we're in. It it affected
me in ways both deep and um and also very
(29:54):
in a very lighthearted way as well. I mean, he
gave me, believe it or not, he gave me a
TV show to watch that I just started watching I've
never heard of before, that's been making me laugh out loud.
And he gave me I can only call it a gift. Um,
he gave me a gift of gratitude in my attitude
(30:16):
and of um just really thinking of this whole situation
in a much different way. We don't have to live
through this. We get to live through this. We don't
need to be confined by what we're experiencing. We don't
need to be defined by what we're experiencing. He's not
(30:38):
He's able to transcend this, just as he was able
to transcend the tiny environment that he lived in the cold,
the heat, the loneliness, the frustration, the awful food, the
fact that he could stretch his arms out and touch
both sides of his cell, and he was able to,
(31:00):
in that environment take himself out and live a life
that was rich. Somehow. I know it seems like it
doesn't make sense, but it's true. He was able to
live a full life in that tiny cell with no
Internet and no TV, and no refrigerator and no no
(31:20):
creature comforts whatsoever. He had nothing but his own mind
and heart and his will to live and survive and
and more and to persevere and to to grow. He
found ways to grow. He didn't have YouTube, he didn't
have Google, he didn't have Netflix, he had nothing. But
(31:42):
somehow he transcended, and he's now transcending again. And the
way that he's doing it obviously is informed by his
life experience, which is an experience that it is probably
impossible for any of us to comprehend that haven't actually
been through it, and very few have been through the
(32:02):
extreme deprivation and torture that he's been through. So if
he can do it, we can do it. I guess
the answer is we need to be grateful for for
your life, for the people around you, for the roof
over your head, and when the dust settles and the
madness slows, we can meet the outside world again with
new skills, new purpose, and renewed appreciation for all of it,
(32:27):
especially for all of those not in isolation. Those are
the real heroes that the people who are fighting this
thing head on. Our doctors are nurses, all the healthcare
provieders are garbage man are grocery store workers, people doing deliveries,
the mailman, people keeping things clean, and of course our
first responders. In the meantime, I hope you've been enjoying
(32:50):
Laura and I write received Risen and their eye opening
accounts of false confessions. I'll be returning with the new
season of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Floman May and next
week we're talking to one of my favorite human beings,
my little sister, Amanda Knox. So come back for another
new perspective on living in the age of COVID. Don't
(33:14):
forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get
your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor
to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll join
me in supporting this very important cause and helping to
prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org
to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
(33:36):
The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one
Welcome to a brand new mini series, Wrongful Conviction with
Jason Flam In the time of COVID. You know, COVID
nineteen has totally derailed our normal lives and spun us
into a new strange world of isolation, restricted movement, anxiety, despair,
and even the threat of death. And it occurred to
me that I know a lot of people that have
(00:24):
an intimate knowledge of all these things and much much worse,
and they know how to cope with them. So I've
asked a few of my friends to share their very
unique experiences to help guide us all through these rough
waters that they know all too well. My hope is
that all of us can gain some perspective, knowledge and
value from their triumphs over tragedy. Today, we'll talk to
(00:47):
a man who did eighteen years on death row for
a crime he didn't commit, during which he spent over
twenty three hours a day locked in a tiny six
by nine ft cell, all while waiting for the state
of our can saw to set his execution day to
take his life. He'll tell us how he used exercise, art, structure,
mental focus, and free will to not allow isolation or
(01:10):
fear to break him. Plus an epiphany that came from
an encounter he had with a man who had actually
beaten someone to death with a can of corn, an
encounter that continues to guide him even through our current
shared reality in this time of COVID. We've interviewed it
before and touched on his story again through one of
his co defendants, Jason Baldwin. Their story is so totally
(01:35):
insane that we even spend time with documentary and Joe Burlinger,
who first covered their story as it was originally unfolding
before he and his friends became known as the West
Memphis three. I encourage you to check out season two,
episode eight, Season seven, episode five, and season eight episode
twelve to hear how the state literally pointed to I
(01:57):
kid you not heavy metal music and to even King
novels as quote unquote evidence along with a false confession
to convict them for the murder of three young boys
in the woods. A deeply religious community just knew it
had to be Satanism or something like that, and it
had to be that boy who wore Metallica T shirts. Today,
(02:18):
we'll talk to one of my personal heroes has become
a dear friend, Damian Echols, about coping in the time
of COVID. Very Damian, welcome back. Thank you so much
for having me. It actually feels really nice just doing
(02:39):
this again. Well, it's really good of you to do it,
and I know a lot of people will take comfort
from learning what you have to say as they endure
this very bizarre and troublesome time that we're all living
through together. So, first of all, Damian, how are you
and Laurie doing? Kind of really well? Actually, as strange
as that sounds, you know, for everything that's one on
(03:00):
in the world, especially here in you know, New York City,
but I think, uh, this, this kind of life was
something that I got used to, you know, when I
was in prison. I got used to having to focus inwardly,
so I wasn't as dependent upon outside stimulus as as
most people who have never been put into that situation are.
(03:23):
So I find myself almost returning to the things that
helped me cope with prison life out here and realizing
that those things are actually really good for me. Well,
you know, I've heard you talk about this stuff before,
but for this special episode, can you just touch on
how you adapted and what were some of the things
(03:44):
that allowed you to maintain your sanity in the most
insane situation imaginable. I honestly, I think the number one
thing that helped me stay sane is figuring out that
I could not live for the future. And I think
that's really important right now to, you know, not to
constantly torture ourselves thinking about when is quarantine going to
(04:07):
be over? When is normal life going to return again?
Because I honestly think the world is probably going to
change after this. I don't think we'll ever go back
to the same world that existed before this quarantine uh
came about? Um Also, I should probably say for me
(04:28):
in prison, uh, you know, really what it came down
to for me was having to create a life for
myself in that environment. So I didn't drive myself insane
constantly wondering when is this going to be over? Am
I ever going to get out? Are these people going
to eventually kill me? How is this situation going to end?
My saving grace in there was that I was able
(04:52):
to create a life, And I think a huge part
of that comes from giving yourself something to focus on
other than you troubles. If you constantly take in media
that's telling you things that's making you scared. And that's true,
whether it's talking about the disease that's going on right now,
the pandemic that's going on, or whether it's you know
(05:13):
you're possible upcoming execution date. You can't sit around dwelling
on that stuff. Are you are going to stew in
fear and misery. You have to give yourself other things
to look at and focus on. You have to create
a world for yourself and a life for yourself and
for for me in prison. Uh, you know, part of
(05:35):
it was also structuring my days. And that's one of
the things I've tried to share with people out here
is you know, we've all heard that it's helpful to
stay on a schedule, but a lot of people that's
that's an abstract concept or an abstract theory. We're like, okay,
stay on a schedule, but what sort of schedule? What
does a schedule mean? It helps if you give people,
(05:55):
like really concrete things that they can do for me.
Those things in prison and out here were things that
don't sound amazing but have tremendous impacts on your psyche,
on the way you view the world. For example, cleaning
you know somebody whenever I first got to prison told
me the very first person I ever talked to, he said,
(06:17):
you can either sit in the cell and stagnate and
go insane like most of the people here, or you
can choose to turn your cell into a monastery, keep working,
keep developing. That's what I chose to do, just because,
you know, when I looked at the other lives around
me in that environment, to be quite honest, that it
kind of horrified me to see, you know, people uh
(06:39):
who were the same after they had been in prison
for fifteen or twenty years that they were whenever they
walked in the door. And I thought, I do not
want to fall into that trap. So I set myself
a schedule to create time. You know, there's no time
in prison. There you have no appointments to keep or
places to go or anything like at So I tried,
(07:02):
to the best of my ability to live my life
exactly the way I would if I were in a
monastery of my own free will. Some of those things
included cleaning, you know, like getting down on your hands
and knees and scrubbing the floor, scrubbing the walls out here.
That's really helpful because not only does it you know,
maintain a schedule, give you something to do, something productive
(07:24):
and constructive to focus on. But it's also helpful for
battling the pandemic, the virus that's going on right now,
for keeping yourself and your family clean. Another thing in
there is exercise. You know, for me, I was in
a tiny cell. I had just enough space to do
push ups, sit ups, jumping Jack's. Once I'm out here,
now what I've been doing for exercises. I put on
(07:45):
a backpack full of weights, and I live in a
three story building, so I run up and down the
stairs quite a few times a day with a backpack
full of weights on. You know, you don't have to
go out and go to the gym, but if you
keep your body in shape or you know, in reasonable
working condition, that is going to go a long way
towards mental health as well. If you start feeling bad physically,
(08:08):
you're going to start feeling bad mentally and emotionally too eventually.
So just things like cleaning, things like exercise. Reading. You
know a lot of people will say I hate to read.
I always say there is no such thing as a
person who hates to read. There are only people who
have not found books that they love, yet they were
forced to read things that maybe they didn't like. Even
(08:30):
if you think that you don't like to read, start
looking for books about subjects that may interest you and
start delving into those. Uh. There's a million little things
you can do to keep your mind occupied that are
productive and constructive. Uh, and that will prevent you from
degenerating into this constant state of fear. I'm so glad
you brought up exercise about all the other things, and remember,
(08:53):
there are a lot of assets that we can all
find online. Since my friend Adamaste has a gym class
that he does online Adam Rossante r O S A
n t E. He has a YouTube channel and he
does a thing for kids as well as adults, but
he has a special thing for kids to keep them
motivated and help prevent them for going stir crazy in
the house. So you can find these things and they're free.
(09:16):
There there are exercise routines you can do with your
own body weight that you don't need to go to
a gym. So, you know, I have so many other
questions for you, Damien. You know, it's really interesting to
me the dichotomy between what you endured and what others
are enduring now, and you talk about how you had
to sort of stay focused on the present. You know,
(09:36):
you had nothing to look forward to after all, whatsoever,
except more of the same misery and then your own death.
So for people out here, it's a very different scenario
because they're looking forward to going back to their routine,
whatever that might be their job, their school, their daily
their daily life. Um, I mean, can you give advice
(09:58):
to to us, the to all of us out here,
or does the same advice apply. I honestly think it's
probably the same advice. You know, I'm looking back at it,
I understand why most people would think that that's how
my life was in there, But honestly, there were entire
weeks would pass when I wasn't even thinking about the
fact that I was imprisoned. It didn't even register to
(10:20):
me anymore because I was so involved in what I
was doing, and either what I was creating through various
artworks or through my own spiritual and meditation practices. I
was experiencing tremendous amounts of growth that excited me, made
me happy, gave me something to look forward to. I
was always, you know, excited about, well, what's gonna come next.
(10:44):
The the outside world probably wouldn't see any of those
things because they were all internal things. Uh. It reminds
me of one of the quotes that I always bring
up is when Timothy Leary was in prison at one point.
Timothy Leary was a guy who did all of the
LSD experiments, and at one point they put him in
a federal federal prison and Ramdas went to visit him,
(11:07):
and ram Das tells him, Uh, we came up with
a plan a way that we're going to break you
out of here. And Timothy Leary says, no, you can't
do that. I've got too much work to do. That's
how I started to feel, probably, I would say, within
the last couple of years that I was in prison.
You know, I wasn't thinking about an execution date or
(11:28):
or what the state was doing, or it just kind
of faded away for me. I think whenever you find
what you're supposed to be doing in life, it kind
of consumes you. It becomes your life's work. Your life's
work becomes your life. I discovered what my life's work
was really early. Fortunately for me, with the more I
(11:49):
poured myself into that, the less I cared about what
was going on around me externally, and you were deprived
of all the creature comforts. And I think a lot
of people are experiencing different degrees of that too. You know,
so many people are going through food shortages. They also
may be experiencing, you know, even lack of basic necessities
(12:11):
like toilet paper. You hear about outages everywhere, and you know,
I sensed it. For a lot of people, there's less
joy in their day to day life. I feel in
conversations I have, there's less joking going on. There's less
levity in general. There's this feeling of just heaviness, you know,
in New York where we are, and I've lost two
(12:33):
friends of this virus already, and everyone seems like they
know somebody who's who's gone. People are hearing sirens in
the middle of the night, ambulances racing people to the hospital,
and it feels like there's a collective heaviness. And Damian,
I've heard you tell one particular story about a crazy
experience you had on death Row that allows you to
(12:55):
see the levity through the almost absolute darkness, you know,
the one with the guy who had murdered somebody with
a can of corn. He actually turned I remember you
saying he turned a vegetable into a deadly weapon. Can
you tell that story? Uh? There was a guy that
was in the cell next to me at one point
for a couple of years, and this guy was pretty
(13:16):
pretty severely schizophrenic. You know, he would come in and
out of reality a lot. There are times when you
could talk to him and he would be completely coherent.
Other times you would talk to him and and nothing
that came out of his mouth would be connected to
reality in any way whatsoever. But there was a time,
you know, a lot of times in the prison you
would have the sewage would back up, and whenever that
(13:37):
would happen, you'd end up standing in like ankle deep
sewage sometimes for a couple of days at a time
while they had to try to fix the system and
clean everything up that was going on. One time, Uh,
you know, the sewage had backed up. Everybody's miserable, and
whenever that happens, you know, to to kind of understand
the full impact of what's going on, You're standing in
(13:59):
ankle deep raw sewage while you try to eat. You
are holding your tray in your hand, standing with your
feet and ship while you try to eat. I can't
even begin to articulate like the levels of misery that
you can experience in an environment like that. But this
(14:19):
guy in the cell next to me, the schizophrenic guy,
he had to actually beat someone to death with a
can of corn when he was on the street. We're
standing there in this ankle deep sewage, and he starts
singing that Leonard Skinnered song. Can you smell that smell?
And whenever he did, I just, you know, just the
absurdity and the outrageousness of the situation that I was
(14:41):
in kind of hit me really hard all at once,
and I couldn't stop laughing. And I asked the guy,
I said, you know, I understand, Okay, we're in this
hellish environment, these people are trying to kill us. But
at the same time, don't you still have moments of fun?
Aren't Aren't there still times when you're enjoying your life?
And he looks at me and says, hell, no, what
(15:03):
the funk is wrong with you that you would even
ask me something like that. But for me, I kind
of I never really lost that. Thankfully they were still
I was still always able to find things that I
enjoyed in there. But I mean, I know exactly what
you're talking about out here because you can, you know,
in New York. I have never felt New York like
this before. The only way that I can even come
(15:24):
close to describing what it's like, you know, when we
hear about quarantine or lockdown or what's the other word
they're calling it self self isolation. Uh. You know a
lot of times in other states, people live in in houses,
they have yards, they have cars that they can drive
somewhere and go on a hike. Most people in New
York have none of that. You know, most people in
(15:45):
New York don't even have a car unless they're incredibly wealthy,
So it's not like they can escape all of this.
And the only way I can describe the environment here
right now is it feels the way the city does
when you're in the middle of a bulle wizard in
the dead of winter and everything comes to a halt,
everything comes to a stand still. But this is even
(16:10):
more profound than that. It's like we are in the
center of a hurricane that we can't even see, can't
even feel, but you can something in you still registers
the fact that something is going on around you. New
York I think is an incredibly special place, just because
(16:32):
it's not just a place that people here live. It's
like a character in our lives, you know. We we
deal with the city the way we would deal with
a person. That's how present it is in our lives.
It's it's almost like a force of nature, or like
a goddess made of concrete and collisions of energy and steal.
(16:54):
That's happening all the time, and everybody here has a
kind of symbiotic relationship with the city. Whenever the city
grinds down, whenever it's hurting, whenever the city's heartbreaks, it's
like everybody else that lives here our heartbreaks at the
same time. Whatever the city is experiencing, it's almost like
every individual within the city is experiencing on a smaller,
(17:19):
micro cosmic level. So whenever the city shuts down, it's
like our lives shut down. UM. I do still believe
with all my heart that somehow, some way, something good
will come out of all of this. I don't know
what it is. I don't know when it would be
or how it will take shape, but I really do
believe that as hard as this has been, something amazing
(17:42):
will still come out of it in some way. I
wanted to ask you, Damian. You mentioned that you feel
like we're never going to return to the same idea,
the normal, and paraphrasing what you said instead more eloquently
(18:03):
than that, But what will be the differences in your view? Honestly,
I can't see it. You know, we're too we're too
far away from the world that we're all going to
re enter again right now. Uh, there's still a lot
of stuff, a lot of time that has to pass.
But you know, a lot of times when we think
of things like destruction, we tend to equate it with evil.
(18:25):
In some way, I think that is an entirely human concept.
I don't think the universe views things in black and white,
good and evil. It views things as as all things
are sort of necessary in order to continue the act
of creation, including destruction. There's an old man that lived
next door to me. He's an old blind man, and
(18:46):
he sits out on his stairs every day and listens
to audio books so we can feel the sun on
his face. And one day he said, I can't even
This was a couple of years ago, so I can't
even remember what started the conversation, but he was talking
about the word odd, and he said it stands for generate, order,
and destroy, because those are the three things that the
(19:08):
universe does. Those are the three stages we we go through.
The universe generates forms, and then it orders them, puts
them in in specific orders. But as soon as those
orders start to stagnate, as soon as growth is no
longer possible, then it's absolutely necessary for it to introduce
(19:28):
destruction into that environment and tear it down so that
a new round of generation and creation can start. And
I honestly think that's kind of where we're at in
the world right now. I think we are in this.
In alchemy, they call it the calcination phase, where everything
kind of gets destroyed, reduced, uh, turned to ash, And
(19:49):
that has to happen sometimes before we can start to rebuild.
You know, if you're gonna build a building, you have
to tear the old building on that site down before
you can build a new one. I think in a
lot of ways, our lives will change, even if it's
just people, uh, you know, being more prepared for something
like this to come in the future. Um, but I
(20:09):
really do think this is going to have an impact
on our psyches, on our collective psyche, on our collective consciousness,
maybe even to the point where we come out of
this and we're more thankful and more grateful for the
things that we do have because we've seen what it's
like whenever they disappear. So maybe this just turns us
into a more appreciative, grateful, unified society or culture. Like
(20:35):
I said, I don't know what shape it will take,
but I do have faith that in some way something
good will come of it. That's a great sort of
um affirmation. It's a very interesting time in so many ways.
I think even relationships are being developed and probably torn down,
(21:00):
probably tested right at a greater rate than normal. I
think that there is a real reset happening across the board. UM.
I did want to ask you a Damien space, right, So,
by and large, well, there's two different aspects to this,
and I'm interested in your take on both. One is,
(21:21):
you have people who are listening who are now confined
to a relatively small space, a small apartment with quite
a few people possibly in it, maybe extended family. And
you have other people who are alone, like really alone
for the first time where they can't have visitors and
they can't have even family members come. Some of them
(21:45):
are elderly. Um, what what advice can you give them?
As far as that you know, and I'm sure must
feel like the walls are closing in on people. I
would say the best advice that I could give about
that would be to, to the best of your ability,
(22:06):
surround yourself with things that make you look up, things
that inspire you, things that make you feel good. And
it could be anything from hanging photos on your wall
that that bring back good memories to like you were
saying while ago, You've got a lot of people out
there right now offering all sorts of amazing stuff on
the Internet, and a lot of it is absolutely free.
(22:28):
You know. Just for example, here in New York, the
street y m c A is doing this thing where
for five dollars you can go onto their website and
they are broadcasting symphony orchestras here throughout the city playing
concerts and you can hear these amazing symphonies and concerts
by you know, divor Jack or or Beethoven or whoever
(22:51):
it is for five dollars. You know, when you're looking
at something like that, most of the time your troubles
and your hardships and your problems are going to be
the last thing on your mind when you are looking
into the face of something that you find beautiful. If
you keep your eyes focused on things that are beautiful
and meaningful and rich and and do something for you personally,
(23:17):
you're feeding yourself. That's that's literally spiritual sustenance. You are
feeding your soul. And the more you feed your soul,
no matter what the environment is like, the better you're
gonna come out of it. So I would say, if
you are at home, like you were saying earlier, use
the internet. You know, there are people out there right
now giving you know, free yoga classes, courses on everything
(23:40):
from astrology to taro to uh how to cut your
own hair, you know, which is a thing that a
lot of people are dealing with. Just because there are
no barbershops, no beauty salons, you can learn all sorts
of amazing things or immerse yourself in beautiful, rich environments,
(24:01):
even if you're trapped in one room. Is there a
particular book or um, even a particular piece of music
or any other creative work, I should say that really
inspired you and that you think may help to inspire
other people. As they live through this. Maybe inspire isn't
(24:23):
the word, but I actually I think it kind of is.
But you'll see why whenever I say this that I
hesitated for a minute when I use that word, just
because whenever we say the word inspire, we tend to
think it has to be something serious, you know, something
where where there's no laughter involved, where you know, almost
like going to church or something. For me, one of
(24:44):
the things that inspire me I have been going back
and rewatching old reruns of one of my favorite TV
shows of all time. It was what this show called
My Name Is Earl with Jason Lee, and it's about
this guy who made a list of every bad thing
he had ever done to it in his life to anyone,
and decided he's going to go down this list and
(25:06):
make whatever he had done right to whoever he had wronged.
And it's one of those things that I will sit
there and watch this show and just laugh out loud
for for half an hour at a time. And whenever
I'm watching this and I'm laughing at it, and I'm
enjoying myself and enjoying my life, Um, I'm not thinking
(25:27):
about my my hardships. Somebody told me one time that yes,
you have to dedicate yourself to uh you know, development
and growth and all these sorts of things, but at
the same time, you can't lose the ability to appreciate
a good joke, because humor is a big part of
what makes life worth living. Find something that makes you
(25:50):
laugh and maybe watch that or listen to that or
read that. Right, there's so much great comedy online as well.
I mean, I know, I love Louis Black and Ross
is one of my favorite comics, and um, you know,
there's so many wonderful comedians. So yeah, that's a great idea,
and I'm gonna watch My Name Is There All. That's
an amazing plug. I'm excited to actually tune into that
(26:12):
tonight because I'm watching too many documentaries and too many
heavy stuff and I feel like I can use that
escape too, So thanks for the recommendation. Um, and of
course there's always you know, curb your enthusiasm sort of
my default when I really need, when I need something
ridiculous to turn to. It's, uh, it's that's that's an
easy and easy escape. Um JBS movement like every time,
(26:35):
and so that's uh, Susie essmanimetually hope it's about it
makes me laughing. Well, Damien, listen, UM, I can say
that I miss you guys. I'm looking forward when this
is done to going out for one of our our
(26:56):
wonderful dinners that we have time to time. And please
please give a big hug to your wonderful wife Lorie
for me. And um, and now, um, you know, I
think all that's left here is for me to first
of all, thank you again for inspiring me and all
of us on a daily basis, and particularly for sharing your, um,
(27:20):
you know, your perspective with our audience, UM, which I
think is going to really have a wonderful impact on
a lot of people. And uh, and then um, you
know this is always the part of the show that
I enjoyed the most, which is the part where I
get to actually just turn my mic off and kick
back and close my eyes and listen to whatever you
(27:43):
have to say that you haven't said already. So to
close out this episode, UM, thanks again, Damien. And now
words of wisdom, Damian Nichols, The floor is yours. I'm
not sure how much these qualify as words of wisdom,
but I guess what I really just want to say
to everyone who's going through quarantine right now, who is
(28:04):
in self isolation, is thank you for doing this. Uh.
I'm myself, as well as many many other people, uh
fall into the category that that they call high risk.
You know, I spent almost twenty years in prison. I
did not have adequate nutrition, no sunlight, no fresh air.
I was breathing in tear gas for almost twenty years,
(28:26):
and it caused a lot of devastating and lingering effects
to my respiratory system. Uh. So I'm just really appreciative
for how serious everyone is taking this and how everyone
is kind of battening down the hatches and dealing with
it even when they don't want to. Because you are,
whether you know it or not. You know, when we
(28:48):
think of saving people's lives, we tend to think of
these big, heroic scenarios. Sometimes they're not like that at all.
Sometimes you can save lives by just doing a tiny,
tiny thing like staying home and watching reruns of your
favorite comedy and uh trying to enjoy yourself a little bit.
So thank you, thank everyone listening to this so much
(29:10):
for doing whatever you can to save lives. Mine included.
This episode was so it was such an amazing experience
for me listening to Damien, Well, I could. I could
listen to Damien for hours anytime, because he's just such
a he's such a deep thinker, he's such an eloquent guy,
(29:33):
he's such a strong um. You know, it's just sort
of ethereal presence and his perspective on how to manage
this bizarre new reality that we're in. It it affected
me in ways both deep and um and also very
(29:54):
in a very lighthearted way as well. I mean, he
gave me, believe it or not, he gave me a
TV show to watch that I just started watching I've
never heard of before, that's been making me laugh out loud.
And he gave me I can only call it a gift. Um,
he gave me a gift of gratitude in my attitude
(30:16):
and of um just really thinking of this whole situation
in a much different way. We don't have to live
through this. We get to live through this. We don't
need to be confined by what we're experiencing. We don't
need to be defined by what we're experiencing. He's not
(30:38):
He's able to transcend this, just as he was able
to transcend the tiny environment that he lived in the cold,
the heat, the loneliness, the frustration, the awful food, the
fact that he could stretch his arms out and touch
both sides of his cell, and he was able to,
(31:00):
in that environment take himself out and live a life
that was rich. Somehow. I know it seems like it
doesn't make sense, but it's true. He was able to
live a full life in that tiny cell with no
Internet and no TV, and no refrigerator and no no
(31:20):
creature comforts whatsoever. He had nothing but his own mind
and heart and his will to live and survive and
and more and to persevere and to to grow. He
found ways to grow. He didn't have YouTube, he didn't
have Google, he didn't have Netflix, he had nothing. But
(31:42):
somehow he transcended, and he's now transcending again. And the
way that he's doing it obviously is informed by his
life experience, which is an experience that it is probably
impossible for any of us to comprehend that haven't actually
been through it, and very few have been through the
(32:02):
extreme deprivation and torture that he's been through. So if
he can do it, we can do it. I guess
the answer is we need to be grateful for for
your life, for the people around you, for the roof
over your head, and when the dust settles and the
madness slows, we can meet the outside world again with
new skills, new purpose, and renewed appreciation for all of it,
(32:27):
especially for all of those not in isolation. Those are
the real heroes that the people who are fighting this
thing head on. Our doctors are nurses, all the healthcare
provieders are garbage man are grocery store workers, people doing deliveries,
the mailman, people keeping things clean, and of course our
first responders. In the meantime, I hope you've been enjoying
(32:50):
Laura and I write received Risen and their eye opening
accounts of false confessions. I'll be returning with the new
season of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Floman May and next
week we're talking to one of my favorite human beings,
my little sister, Amanda Knox. So come back for another
new perspective on living in the age of COVID. Don't
(33:14):
forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get
your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor
to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll join
me in supporting this very important cause and helping to
prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org
to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
(33:36):
The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava
for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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