April 20, 2020 • 25 mins
As we move into our 2nd month since COVID 19 was declared a global pandemic, many of us have been isolating for just as long, if not longer. Jason Flom has been reaching out to some experts - our wrongfully convicted community - for advice on how to cope with the dark side of isolation.
In the second interview of a new mini series from Wrongful Conviction Podcasts, Jason Flom speaks with Amanda Knox, a woman who was sentenced to 26 years in an Italian prison for a crime she did not commit. Her full story can be heard in the premier episode of our 2nd season.
Now, Amanda tells us about her concerns for all those isolating alone, including the currently incarcerated, and what she did to make the best use of her time, as well as to combat the absence of physical touch while in prison.
Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to a brand new mini series, Wrongful Conviction with
Jason flam In the time of COVID. You know, we're
moving into our second month since this was declared a pandemic,
and many of us have been isolating for just as
long or even longer. Being away from our loved ones
is painful. Let's be honest, Being without physical touch just
(00:25):
playing sucks and there's only so much that video conferencing
can do to fill that void. So my team and
I have been reaching out to the experts are Wrongfully
Convicted community for advice on how to cope with the
dark side of isolation. Last week we spoke with Damian
Echols of the West Memphis three, and if you haven't
had a chance, I strongly recommend listening to his advice
(00:47):
about focusing on the things that you do have control over,
like scheduling, self improvement, exercise, art, literature, and most importantly,
holding onto your sense of humor through the darkness. This week,
we'll talk to a woman who was at the center
of an international scandal when she was demonized in the media,
all while trying to navigate a legal system in a
(01:10):
language that was foreign to her. Eventually, she was sentenced
to twenty six years in an Italian prison for a
crime she simply didn't commit. She'll tell us about how
she's holding up now, her concerns for all those isolating
alone as well as the currently incarcerated, and what she
did to make the best use of her time and
to combat the absence of physical touch while she was
(01:31):
in prison. And you can hear her entire story of
triumph over tragedy in the first episode of our second
season of Brownful Conviction with Jason Flom. She's the host
of Vice Media's Scarlet Letter Report and The Truth About
True Crime podcast, and she's someone that I proudly referred
to as my little sister, Amanda Knox on coping in
(01:52):
the time of COVID. They have one of my absolute
favorite human beings, someone I referred to as my little sister.
Amanda Knox is our guest today. Hi Amanda, Hi big brother,
Welcome back to the show. How are things with you
(02:16):
during this time of COVID, let's just call it, how
are things with you and Chris? Well, we are very
fortunate compared to a lot of people, even within our
own family. You know, Chris and I haven't had to
change our lifestyles all that much. We've already worked from home,
so we're used to being in that self disciplined rhythm.
(02:40):
We're used to feeling a little caged up. We are healthy,
we have not lost our jobs. We cannot say the
same for everyone in our family. UM. We have friends
who have definitely lost their jobs. UM. There are a
number of people in our family who are at high risk. UM.
I'm thinking particularly of my Oma, who is in her
(03:02):
eighties and needs to go to the hospital in a
few weeks for heart surgery. So it's really, UM a
difficult time knowing how fragile we all are and having
that reinforced, even if Chris and I personally are very
(03:25):
very fortunate. Like on the phone the other day, Jason,
you said you're lucky to be quarantined with your partner,
and I couldn't agree more. I have friends who don't
have that privilege, and I understand what it means to
not have loving, caring touch for a long, extended period
of time. That's one of the things that I find
(03:48):
the hardest to comprehend is when someone like you was
in the situation you were in there. You are in
a tiny cell in a foreign country and you really
can't be more alone. Um. And as you said, for years,
you went without a friendly or loving touch from any
(04:11):
other human being, right, And how did you cope with that?
And what can we learn from that experience for people
who are alone? Now? You know, my experience of it
was it almost happened without me realizing it, where I
stopped being used to people having loving touched towards me.
(04:31):
I slowly, over the course of time, grew unfamiliar with
human contact. You know, that wasn't a pat down, a
strip search, or a potential threat from another inmate. I
learned slowly that I was very alone, and that the
(04:52):
only touch that belonged to me, and the only thing
that belonged to me, um, was my own and my
own mind. So I'm thinking a lot about that these days.
You know, I have friends who are struggling with that now, um,
And you know, not just people that I know in prison,
(05:12):
but I just have friends who who don't have partners.
And I remember what it felt like and how much
it meant for someone to just hold your hand. And
I deeply, deeply feel and empathize with anyone out there,
imprisoned or not who can't rely on that, so any
(05:36):
insight that I have for how to deal with that.
One thing that I did um when I was in
prison and I felt very physically distant from people was
when I wrote my letters to people at home, I
would have a picture of them in front of me,
(05:58):
and I got so lonely that it got to the
point that I would caress their faces in the picture
like I would touch the actual picture to feel like
I was physically connecting with them in some way. And
that sounds crazy. A lot of the things that I
talked about when I talk about surviving prison tactics make
me sound like a crazy person, but that did help.
(06:22):
Another thing that helped me was having a better understanding
of my own body um so in the same way
that I stayed sane by really feeding my mind and
learning to express my thoughts, even just to myself um
through either journaling or reflection. I think one thing that
(06:46):
could greatly help people during this time is to find
indoor activities that get you engaged with your own body.
I cannot recommend yoga enough because you don't need a
lot of space, and by moving through different poses, you
discover muscles that you never knew existed, and that process
(07:12):
of getting in touch with your own body can alleviate
the feeling of being out of touch with other people's bodies.
And you can find zoom classes online. There are great
resources on YouTube. A lot of people are sharing their
skills and wisdom out there, and especially in the yoga realm,
(07:33):
for so many people who are now stuck in you know,
very small spaces relative to what they're used to anyway,
not relative to what you were used to. UM, but
the walls maybe feeling like they're closing in. They have
maybe you know, numerous people that they're sharing their space with. UM.
(07:55):
You know, it's a recipe for people to go Stirk crazy,
but you had you know, I'm just thinking about the
concrete walls and the gray and the lack of creature comforts.
But how did you I mean, you were flung into
this situation not of your own making. You were facing
(08:18):
twenty six years of this. So for you, what were
some of the things that besides yoga or caressing the photos?
How did you adjust? I mean, how did you keep
from just bouncing off the walls. Over the course of
my imprisonment, I was either in a cell with one
(08:40):
other person, or a cell with four other people, And
I learned what it was like to navigate a small
space with lots of people and also an even smaller
place with just one other person. When we are in
close quarters with each other, we all need to learn
to understand each other's boundaries and needs and to come
(09:03):
up with compromises and routines that we can rely on,
so that at the very least, there's something that we
have control over. The thing that's really difficult about this
time of coronavirus for all of us is the uncertainty.
We don't know when it's going to be over. We
(09:25):
don't know what the world is going to look like
once it is over, and we're sitting here in our
small spaces feeling very powerless and out of control, like
we don't have control over our own lives. So what
I learned to do, and something that the prison environment
(09:49):
kind of facilitates for you, is you don't really get
to determine what the routine is. You know, when you're
in a prison cell, lunch comes. At the time that
lunch comes, you don't have control over that. Um you
don't know have control over when dinner comes. What you
do have are many many, many many hours at a
(10:11):
time in a small space where you have limited abilities
of what you can do. And one thing that I
did in a big cell or a small cell was
I tried to think of how I could make this
day worth living, because I was always having that conversation
(10:32):
with myself where my time was the thing that was
being taken from me, and was there any way that
I could salvage my time in a meaningful way so
that it made living worth it? And very often that
meant that I was doing a heck of a lot
(10:54):
of reading. I was studying languages, um, not just to
try to become fluent in attack Alion for my own
survivals sake, but also for the joy of learning languages.
The one thing that I think that people are really
dealing with right now that I didn't have to deal
with prison, and that I think is both a blessing
(11:15):
and a curse, is um. You know, in prison, one
of the hardest things to do is to find reason
to be purposeful. Um. It's hard when you are removed
from society and told that you're a worthless human being,
less than a human being that doesn't have anything to
(11:35):
offer society to then get up every day and say
I'm going to do something purposeful. I'm going to learn
something because I'm worth something and my mind through exercise
has potential. Today people in quarantine maybe struggling with wondering
when their next meal is going to come, how they
(11:57):
can keep earning and have pot nil in the world
when the source of their income and the way that
they have spent their time has been removed from them.
You know, it's one thing to say, use this time
to like learn a new skill, but some people don't
(12:17):
have the ability to learn a new skill when they're
taking care of their children or they're trying to figure
out how they're going to get a job in this economy.
Not all of us have the privilege of finally getting
to read that book that's been on the shelf for
ages and ages and ages, and like, the one thing
(12:38):
that I can say is, at the end of the day,
there's only so much you can do. So at the
start of the day, at any given day, you can
think through what it is that you're able to do
to solve the problems you have, and then once you've
moved through all those motions that you can literally we
(13:00):
do in a single day. Don't beat yourself up because
you can't do anything more. Let yourself be at peace
with the fact that you've done everything that you can do.
That's something that I had to live with every day, was,
you know, wishing that I could do so much more
(13:21):
and trying to give myself a break when at the
end of the day, I just I was still stuck there.
I was still trapped. But I had written a letter
to my mom, I had done three d sit ups,
and that was what I could accomplish. Let's talk about art, music, literature. Um,
(13:54):
were there particular pieces of music or books or anything
from the creative space that really helped you then or
that are really helpful that other people might find helpful now?
Even a even a special movie or what? What? What
has fed my soul and what is feeding my soul today? Um?
Absolutely so um, without a doubt. And I wonder if
(14:19):
you could guess what my favorite book was in prison?
Do you do you have any guess? Oh wait, I'm
going to make a guess. Um. I mean I could
say just mercy, or I could say something much more. Um,
you know, I don't know what's coming to mind. I
mean Jonathan Livingston seagull. I don't know what tell me
(14:40):
I did read that. Um. My favorite favorite book in
prison was The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and um,
and I have to say that, like then and now,
I recommend any piece of literature or film or series
(15:03):
or music that has world building built within it. I
have a genuine appreciation for someone who can imagine worlds
and galaxies and create new rules for them and for me.
Because I'm so deeply involved with my work with really sad,
(15:25):
serious stuff, um, the kind of stuff that you read
about in Just Mercy. For my own sanity's sake, I
try to counterbalance that with a combination of British humor
and um, weird Al. So I'm I'm a big, huge
fan of weird Al. I love someone who's willing to
(15:49):
be silly and absurd and create this whole other alternate
reality to the one that we're sitting in that is
just a lot more fun. What weird Al should I
be checking out? I'm really not that familiar. Other than
his hit songs, I don't really know much. Oh my
(16:09):
gosh wow. Um his albums are so solid. Honestly, I
would love for you to see his music videos because
he's also such an incredible performer. He has an amazing presence,
and since we do have access to the internet, unlike
in prison, UM, we can enjoy that. So, I mean,
(16:33):
White and Nerdy is so funny, and he's just aware
of himself in a way that gives me hope for humanity,
where he can make fun of himself and the world
by creating these alternate realities. Um. In the same way,
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was this huge escape for
(16:56):
me in prison, where I would be totally sad sitting
on my cot in the prison, and I would just
stick earplugs in and stick my nose in that book
and find myself giggling despite myself. Um, it's funny. Just
reminded me. I don't know why, but thinking about Weird
Now reminded me of a song. I had to look
(17:16):
it up to see who it was by, but I
don't know if you've ever heard, there's a wonderful video
called Everyday Normal Guy, Um John mohoy. It's sort of
a play on on wrap. He's basically taking the piss
out of himself. UM. And so he talks about you know,
the lyric start off of just a regular, everyday normal guy,
(17:38):
nothing special about me, motherfucker. You know he probably learned
from weird Al if I had to guess, I mean,
weird Al is the source of all hilarious inspiration in
terms of the music. I think Lonely Island and even
Fly to the Concords. Everyone is inspired by weird Al
and he he's just a nice guy who who is
(18:02):
willing to be silly for our benefit. So I feel
like we've covered a lot of ground here and now
I guess all this really left is for me to say,
you know, thank you again for making time to do this.
(18:26):
And I always, of course Jason always I it always
makes me feel better to talk to my big brother. Well,
you know, I don't know what to say. I'm just
gonna get all choked up here in a minute. But
so I'm going to thank everyone for listening. Of course,
don't tune out yet, because the best is yet to come.
(18:47):
Once again, my hands in the in the prayer position
by my heart as I say this, Um, thank you
just for being you and for being a part of
my life and for sharing with our audience. It means
the world to me. And now the floor is yours.
I'm just going to sit back and listen, So Amanda
Knox for words of wisdom. So I know that, like
(19:07):
right now, this time is a period that's particularly frustrating
because everyone is reacting differently to this pandemic. Some people
are really aware of it and embracing all of the
things that need to be done to protect themselves from it.
A lot of people are in denial about it and
(19:29):
and everything on that spectrum. And the one thing that
I try to keep in mind when I am thinking
about this is a lot of people are not doing
the right thing in response to what is happening, just
like a lot of people are making wrongful convictions happen,
and you know a lot of those people are doing
(19:52):
so with militian senttent, but a lot of people aren't.
A lot of people are scared, a lot of people
are being fed bad information, a lot of people are
in denial, and there's a lot of psychological factors that
are going on as people are processing this very very
(20:12):
difficult time. And my one recommendation for everyone going through
this as they're interacting with people in the world is
to remember that like kindness does go a long way. Um,
that doesn't mean not holding people accountable or not calling
people out who are doing the wrong thing, but remembering
that it's not a good versus evils equation. It's humans
(20:37):
being dumb, which we all are at least that's how
I feel about it. Yeah, we all are dumb to
some varying degrees, and I, you know, I recognize it
in myself. It's funny, but yes, we all have our
we all have our blind spots, and we all are
we all have our like I look at the world
(21:00):
and I see Like I asked myself, why do people
make these huge mistakes that have impacts on other people's lives?
And I can't believe that the vast majority of them
are sitting there cackling away thinking that they're doing something
horrible to someone. I think a lot of people are
trying to do what they think is right without recognizing
(21:24):
that they aren't acknowledging all of the information available to them,
and the vast majority of them are are being selfish,
but being selfish in a very human way. That really
comes down to fear and denial. And the way that
you combat that, I found is by seeing where it's
(21:48):
coming from, but also calling it what it is, which
is the person across from you is not an evil person.
They're just a person, if that makes any sense. It's
kind of a big topic that I think about a
lot when I think about prosecutors and when I think
about investigators. Um, I'm always trying to really see the
(22:12):
person across from me who is so wrong and yet
not succumb to a thinking that doesn't actually help me
engage with them and fix the problem. So I don't know.
I guess that's my my plug for being ever thoughtful
and having compassion even for those who don't seem to
(22:36):
deserve it. Be kind. The first step to knowing yourself
is being kind to yourself, and that then leads you
to be your best self. This is a time that
is very difficult for everyone to be their best self,
but you can do it. I love you, all right,
(23:00):
rigid clap for that one. Wow. Just really It's always
a great experience speaking with Amanda, but that was particularly
meaningful for me because I'm going through the same things,
some of the same things that many of you are
going through, and to hear Amanda talk about how she
(23:24):
almost created her own version of face time by using
photographs of people she loved and caressing those photographs. I mean, wow,
that really puts things in perspective for me. Um Amanda.
I just feel privileged to be able to be a
part of helping you help others by sharing your story.
(23:47):
And before we sign off from me and everyone on
the Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam team and members of
our extended family, I want to extend our heartfelt thanks
to our healthcare providers, essential workers and first responders and
everyone who's keeping our society going. Thank you. In the meantime,
(24:13):
I hope you've been listening to false confession experts Laura
and I writer and Stege Risen as they enlighten all
of us about how the hell so many people would
ever admit to crimes that they didn't commit, And stay
tuned for our new season of Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Flam coming up in May. Next week, we're talking to
the one and only Nick Yaris, and if you want
(24:35):
to get a head start in his story, we released
a two parter season nine, episode five that will blow
your mind. So come back for more alternative perspective on
living in the time of COVID from someone who's been
to hell and back. Don't forget to give us a
(24:57):
fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps.
And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate
and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,
Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show
(25:20):
is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
association with Signal Company Number one
Welcome to a brand new mini series, Wrongful Conviction with
Jason flam In the time of COVID. You know, we're
moving into our second month since this was declared a pandemic,
and many of us have been isolating for just as
long or even longer. Being away from our loved ones
is painful. Let's be honest, Being without physical touch just
(00:25):
playing sucks and there's only so much that video conferencing
can do to fill that void. So my team and
I have been reaching out to the experts are Wrongfully
Convicted community for advice on how to cope with the
dark side of isolation. Last week we spoke with Damian
Echols of the West Memphis three, and if you haven't
had a chance, I strongly recommend listening to his advice
(00:47):
about focusing on the things that you do have control over,
like scheduling, self improvement, exercise, art, literature, and most importantly,
holding onto your sense of humor through the darkness. This week,
we'll talk to a woman who was at the center
of an international scandal when she was demonized in the media,
all while trying to navigate a legal system in a
(01:10):
language that was foreign to her. Eventually, she was sentenced
to twenty six years in an Italian prison for a
crime she simply didn't commit. She'll tell us about how
she's holding up now, her concerns for all those isolating
alone as well as the currently incarcerated, and what she
did to make the best use of her time and
to combat the absence of physical touch while she was
(01:31):
in prison. And you can hear her entire story of
triumph over tragedy in the first episode of our second
season of Brownful Conviction with Jason Flom. She's the host
of Vice Media's Scarlet Letter Report and The Truth About
True Crime podcast, and she's someone that I proudly referred
to as my little sister, Amanda Knox on coping in
(01:52):
the time of COVID. They have one of my absolute
favorite human beings, someone I referred to as my little sister.
Amanda Knox is our guest today. Hi Amanda, Hi big brother,
Welcome back to the show. How are things with you
(02:16):
during this time of COVID, let's just call it, how
are things with you and Chris? Well, we are very
fortunate compared to a lot of people, even within our
own family. You know, Chris and I haven't had to
change our lifestyles all that much. We've already worked from home,
so we're used to being in that self disciplined rhythm.
(02:40):
We're used to feeling a little caged up. We are healthy,
we have not lost our jobs. We cannot say the
same for everyone in our family. UM. We have friends
who have definitely lost their jobs. UM. There are a
number of people in our family who are at high risk. UM.
I'm thinking particularly of my Oma, who is in her
(03:02):
eighties and needs to go to the hospital in a
few weeks for heart surgery. So it's really, UM a
difficult time knowing how fragile we all are and having
that reinforced, even if Chris and I personally are very
(03:25):
very fortunate. Like on the phone the other day, Jason,
you said you're lucky to be quarantined with your partner,
and I couldn't agree more. I have friends who don't
have that privilege, and I understand what it means to
not have loving, caring touch for a long, extended period
of time. That's one of the things that I find
(03:48):
the hardest to comprehend is when someone like you was
in the situation you were in there. You are in
a tiny cell in a foreign country and you really
can't be more alone. Um. And as you said, for years,
you went without a friendly or loving touch from any
(04:11):
other human being, right, And how did you cope with that?
And what can we learn from that experience for people
who are alone? Now? You know, my experience of it
was it almost happened without me realizing it, where I
stopped being used to people having loving touched towards me.
(04:31):
I slowly, over the course of time, grew unfamiliar with
human contact. You know, that wasn't a pat down, a
strip search, or a potential threat from another inmate. I
learned slowly that I was very alone, and that the
(04:52):
only touch that belonged to me, and the only thing
that belonged to me, um, was my own and my
own mind. So I'm thinking a lot about that these days.
You know, I have friends who are struggling with that now, um,
And you know, not just people that I know in prison,
(05:12):
but I just have friends who who don't have partners.
And I remember what it felt like and how much
it meant for someone to just hold your hand. And
I deeply, deeply feel and empathize with anyone out there,
imprisoned or not who can't rely on that, so any
(05:36):
insight that I have for how to deal with that.
One thing that I did um when I was in
prison and I felt very physically distant from people was
when I wrote my letters to people at home, I
would have a picture of them in front of me,
(05:58):
and I got so lonely that it got to the
point that I would caress their faces in the picture
like I would touch the actual picture to feel like
I was physically connecting with them in some way. And
that sounds crazy. A lot of the things that I
talked about when I talk about surviving prison tactics make
me sound like a crazy person, but that did help.
(06:22):
Another thing that helped me was having a better understanding
of my own body um so in the same way
that I stayed sane by really feeding my mind and
learning to express my thoughts, even just to myself um
through either journaling or reflection. I think one thing that
(06:46):
could greatly help people during this time is to find
indoor activities that get you engaged with your own body.
I cannot recommend yoga enough because you don't need a
lot of space, and by moving through different poses, you
discover muscles that you never knew existed, and that process
(07:12):
of getting in touch with your own body can alleviate
the feeling of being out of touch with other people's bodies.
And you can find zoom classes online. There are great
resources on YouTube. A lot of people are sharing their
skills and wisdom out there, and especially in the yoga realm,
(07:33):
for so many people who are now stuck in you know,
very small spaces relative to what they're used to anyway,
not relative to what you were used to. UM, but
the walls maybe feeling like they're closing in. They have
maybe you know, numerous people that they're sharing their space with. UM.
(07:55):
You know, it's a recipe for people to go Stirk crazy,
but you had you know, I'm just thinking about the
concrete walls and the gray and the lack of creature comforts.
But how did you I mean, you were flung into
this situation not of your own making. You were facing
(08:18):
twenty six years of this. So for you, what were
some of the things that besides yoga or caressing the photos?
How did you adjust? I mean, how did you keep
from just bouncing off the walls. Over the course of
my imprisonment, I was either in a cell with one
(08:40):
other person, or a cell with four other people, And
I learned what it was like to navigate a small
space with lots of people and also an even smaller
place with just one other person. When we are in
close quarters with each other, we all need to learn
to understand each other's boundaries and needs and to come
(09:03):
up with compromises and routines that we can rely on,
so that at the very least, there's something that we
have control over. The thing that's really difficult about this
time of coronavirus for all of us is the uncertainty.
We don't know when it's going to be over. We
(09:25):
don't know what the world is going to look like
once it is over, and we're sitting here in our
small spaces feeling very powerless and out of control, like
we don't have control over our own lives. So what
I learned to do, and something that the prison environment
(09:49):
kind of facilitates for you, is you don't really get
to determine what the routine is. You know, when you're
in a prison cell, lunch comes. At the time that
lunch comes, you don't have control over that. Um you
don't know have control over when dinner comes. What you
do have are many many, many many hours at a
(10:11):
time in a small space where you have limited abilities
of what you can do. And one thing that I
did in a big cell or a small cell was
I tried to think of how I could make this
day worth living, because I was always having that conversation
(10:32):
with myself where my time was the thing that was
being taken from me, and was there any way that
I could salvage my time in a meaningful way so
that it made living worth it? And very often that
meant that I was doing a heck of a lot
(10:54):
of reading. I was studying languages, um, not just to
try to become fluent in attack Alion for my own
survivals sake, but also for the joy of learning languages.
The one thing that I think that people are really
dealing with right now that I didn't have to deal
with prison, and that I think is both a blessing
(11:15):
and a curse, is um. You know, in prison, one
of the hardest things to do is to find reason
to be purposeful. Um. It's hard when you are removed
from society and told that you're a worthless human being,
less than a human being that doesn't have anything to
(11:35):
offer society to then get up every day and say
I'm going to do something purposeful. I'm going to learn
something because I'm worth something and my mind through exercise
has potential. Today people in quarantine maybe struggling with wondering
when their next meal is going to come, how they
(11:57):
can keep earning and have pot nil in the world
when the source of their income and the way that
they have spent their time has been removed from them.
You know, it's one thing to say, use this time
to like learn a new skill, but some people don't
(12:17):
have the ability to learn a new skill when they're
taking care of their children or they're trying to figure
out how they're going to get a job in this economy.
Not all of us have the privilege of finally getting
to read that book that's been on the shelf for
ages and ages and ages, and like, the one thing
(12:38):
that I can say is, at the end of the day,
there's only so much you can do. So at the
start of the day, at any given day, you can
think through what it is that you're able to do
to solve the problems you have, and then once you've
moved through all those motions that you can literally we
(13:00):
do in a single day. Don't beat yourself up because
you can't do anything more. Let yourself be at peace
with the fact that you've done everything that you can do.
That's something that I had to live with every day, was,
you know, wishing that I could do so much more
(13:21):
and trying to give myself a break when at the
end of the day, I just I was still stuck there.
I was still trapped. But I had written a letter
to my mom, I had done three d sit ups,
and that was what I could accomplish. Let's talk about art, music, literature. Um,
(13:54):
were there particular pieces of music or books or anything
from the creative space that really helped you then or
that are really helpful that other people might find helpful now?
Even a even a special movie or what? What? What
has fed my soul and what is feeding my soul today? Um?
Absolutely so um, without a doubt. And I wonder if
(14:19):
you could guess what my favorite book was in prison?
Do you do you have any guess? Oh wait, I'm
going to make a guess. Um. I mean I could
say just mercy, or I could say something much more. Um,
you know, I don't know what's coming to mind. I
mean Jonathan Livingston seagull. I don't know what tell me
(14:40):
I did read that. Um. My favorite favorite book in
prison was The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and um,
and I have to say that, like then and now,
I recommend any piece of literature or film or series
(15:03):
or music that has world building built within it. I
have a genuine appreciation for someone who can imagine worlds
and galaxies and create new rules for them and for me.
Because I'm so deeply involved with my work with really sad,
(15:25):
serious stuff, um, the kind of stuff that you read
about in Just Mercy. For my own sanity's sake, I
try to counterbalance that with a combination of British humor
and um, weird Al. So I'm I'm a big, huge
fan of weird Al. I love someone who's willing to
(15:49):
be silly and absurd and create this whole other alternate
reality to the one that we're sitting in that is
just a lot more fun. What weird Al should I
be checking out? I'm really not that familiar. Other than
his hit songs, I don't really know much. Oh my
(16:09):
gosh wow. Um his albums are so solid. Honestly, I
would love for you to see his music videos because
he's also such an incredible performer. He has an amazing presence,
and since we do have access to the internet, unlike
in prison, UM, we can enjoy that. So, I mean,
(16:33):
White and Nerdy is so funny, and he's just aware
of himself in a way that gives me hope for humanity,
where he can make fun of himself and the world
by creating these alternate realities. Um. In the same way,
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was this huge escape for
(16:56):
me in prison, where I would be totally sad sitting
on my cot in the prison, and I would just
stick earplugs in and stick my nose in that book
and find myself giggling despite myself. Um, it's funny. Just
reminded me. I don't know why, but thinking about Weird
Now reminded me of a song. I had to look
(17:16):
it up to see who it was by, but I
don't know if you've ever heard, there's a wonderful video
called Everyday Normal Guy, Um John mohoy. It's sort of
a play on on wrap. He's basically taking the piss
out of himself. UM. And so he talks about you know,
the lyric start off of just a regular, everyday normal guy,
(17:38):
nothing special about me, motherfucker. You know he probably learned
from weird Al if I had to guess, I mean,
weird Al is the source of all hilarious inspiration in
terms of the music. I think Lonely Island and even
Fly to the Concords. Everyone is inspired by weird Al
and he he's just a nice guy who who is
(18:02):
willing to be silly for our benefit. So I feel
like we've covered a lot of ground here and now
I guess all this really left is for me to say,
you know, thank you again for making time to do this.
(18:26):
And I always, of course Jason always I it always
makes me feel better to talk to my big brother. Well,
you know, I don't know what to say. I'm just
gonna get all choked up here in a minute. But
so I'm going to thank everyone for listening. Of course,
don't tune out yet, because the best is yet to come.
(18:47):
Once again, my hands in the in the prayer position
by my heart as I say this, Um, thank you
just for being you and for being a part of
my life and for sharing with our audience. It means
the world to me. And now the floor is yours.
I'm just going to sit back and listen, So Amanda
Knox for words of wisdom. So I know that, like
(19:07):
right now, this time is a period that's particularly frustrating
because everyone is reacting differently to this pandemic. Some people
are really aware of it and embracing all of the
things that need to be done to protect themselves from it.
A lot of people are in denial about it and
(19:29):
and everything on that spectrum. And the one thing that
I try to keep in mind when I am thinking
about this is a lot of people are not doing
the right thing in response to what is happening, just
like a lot of people are making wrongful convictions happen,
and you know a lot of those people are doing
(19:52):
so with militian senttent, but a lot of people aren't.
A lot of people are scared, a lot of people
are being fed bad information, a lot of people are
in denial, and there's a lot of psychological factors that
are going on as people are processing this very very
(20:12):
difficult time. And my one recommendation for everyone going through
this as they're interacting with people in the world is
to remember that like kindness does go a long way. Um,
that doesn't mean not holding people accountable or not calling
people out who are doing the wrong thing, but remembering
that it's not a good versus evils equation. It's humans
(20:37):
being dumb, which we all are at least that's how
I feel about it. Yeah, we all are dumb to
some varying degrees, and I, you know, I recognize it
in myself. It's funny, but yes, we all have our
we all have our blind spots, and we all are
we all have our like I look at the world
(21:00):
and I see Like I asked myself, why do people
make these huge mistakes that have impacts on other people's lives?
And I can't believe that the vast majority of them
are sitting there cackling away thinking that they're doing something
horrible to someone. I think a lot of people are
trying to do what they think is right without recognizing
(21:24):
that they aren't acknowledging all of the information available to them,
and the vast majority of them are are being selfish,
but being selfish in a very human way. That really
comes down to fear and denial. And the way that
you combat that, I found is by seeing where it's
(21:48):
coming from, but also calling it what it is, which
is the person across from you is not an evil person.
They're just a person, if that makes any sense. It's
kind of a big topic that I think about a
lot when I think about prosecutors and when I think
about investigators. Um, I'm always trying to really see the
(22:12):
person across from me who is so wrong and yet
not succumb to a thinking that doesn't actually help me
engage with them and fix the problem. So I don't know.
I guess that's my my plug for being ever thoughtful
and having compassion even for those who don't seem to
(22:36):
deserve it. Be kind. The first step to knowing yourself
is being kind to yourself, and that then leads you
to be your best self. This is a time that
is very difficult for everyone to be their best self,
but you can do it. I love you, all right,
(23:00):
rigid clap for that one. Wow. Just really It's always
a great experience speaking with Amanda, but that was particularly
meaningful for me because I'm going through the same things,
some of the same things that many of you are
going through, and to hear Amanda talk about how she
(23:24):
almost created her own version of face time by using
photographs of people she loved and caressing those photographs. I mean, wow,
that really puts things in perspective for me. Um Amanda.
I just feel privileged to be able to be a
part of helping you help others by sharing your story.
(23:47):
And before we sign off from me and everyone on
the Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam team and members of
our extended family, I want to extend our heartfelt thanks
to our healthcare providers, essential workers and first responders and
everyone who's keeping our society going. Thank you. In the meantime,
(24:13):
I hope you've been listening to false confession experts Laura
and I writer and Stege Risen as they enlighten all
of us about how the hell so many people would
ever admit to crimes that they didn't commit, And stay
tuned for our new season of Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Flam coming up in May. Next week, we're talking to
the one and only Nick Yaris, and if you want
(24:35):
to get a head start in his story, we released
a two parter season nine, episode five that will blow
your mind. So come back for more alternative perspective on
living in the time of COVID from someone who's been
to hell and back. Don't forget to give us a
(24:57):
fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps.
And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate
and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,
Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show
(25:20):
is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
association with Signal Company Number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.