August 31, 2020 • 33 mins
In the spring of 1985, a rapist with a very specific M.O. was on the loose along a stretch of Roswell Road between the city of Atlanta and Fulton County. Somehow it did not matter to the less than scrupulous district attorney when the attacks continued after a composite sketch nabbed the wrong man.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode was recorded pre COVID at the Atlanta Innocence
Network conference in two thousand nineteen. On April fifth, a
woman was exiting her car at a parking lot just
north of Atlanta when a man approached, asking about a
woman named Carol. When he got close enough, he pulled
a gun, forced her into the passenger seat, drove to
(00:22):
a dead end, and proceeded to raper. After the attack,
the victim went to the hospital for a rape kit.
With a well lit parking lot and over forty five
minutes with her attacker, she was able to put together
a composite sketch. On April tenth, a near identical incident
occurred along the same stretch of road. A man approached
a woman in a parking lot and asking for Carol,
(00:44):
before using a thread of violence to get her back
into the car. However, this time the victim was able
to talk the attacker into leaving before a rap occurred.
The police showed this would be victim the composite sketch,
and it appeared there was a serial rapist operating in
the North Atlanta area. Then on April Willie Pete Williams,
(01:05):
along with two of his friends, were stopped by police
for suspicious behavior in the area of the attacks. Police
noticed that Pete resembled the sketch and came up with
a reason to arrest him, saying that he gave them
false information in order to bring him in to be photographed.
His photo was shown to both women for a positive
i D. While Pete was locked up, Three more attacks
(01:28):
would occur with the same m O, but it was
already too late. Pete Williams spent nearly twenty two years
in prison before DNA testing proved that another man was
responsible for all five attacks. This is wrongful conviction with
Jason Flom. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. This episode is
(02:01):
gonna be a very unique one. We have with us
Pete Williams, who served twenty two years in Georgia prisons
for a rape he did not commit, two rapes, actually
they did not commit. And with him is Drew Findling,
who is uh can I say, enigmatic character, famous for
(02:22):
his work representing some of the top hip hop artis
in the world, and he's also now the president of
the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He got involved
in criminal defense work because of Pete's case, but they
never met until today. So this is gonna be a
fun ride, and I'm excited to be honest. So Pete,
welcome and same to you, Drew. And like I always say, Pete,
(02:45):
I'm I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here.
And I want to tell your story because I think
it's an important story for a lot of reasons. I
guess that at the heart of it is a mistaken
witness identification more than one actually, and it's a really
important thing for us to talk about because it's so common.
But can you take us back to I mean, this
is a long time ago, right, because you were exonerating
(03:05):
two thousand seven with the help of the Innocence Project,
So this crime goes all the way back to the
mid eighties, right, And what were you up to back then?
What was your life like? What was going on in
in Pete's world? Most of that was working, uh and
(03:26):
dropped out of school. Really didn't have much going on
other than freedom. How were you I just so you're
twenty three. You got charged with originally one rape right
at the time, and let's talk about this awful rape
which occurred on April, which is when a woman arrived
(03:48):
at her apartment complex parking lot along Roswell Road, just
north of Atlanta, got out, but she got out a
man approach, pretending that he was looking for someone, but
when he got close, he pulled a gun and forced
her back into the car, then drove her at gunpoint
to a dead end street where he raped her. Then
he drove her back to her apartment complex, and then
(04:09):
he left on foot. So the victim then went to
the police and the hospital for a rape kit, which
means there was a sample of the rapist d N A.
And that becomes important later because after all, there was
no DNA testing back in anyway. So later on, though,
we're gonna get to that. So by now the victim
had spent a considerable amount of time with her attacker,
(04:31):
and as a result, she was able to help the
police put together a composite sketch. And this attacker had
a particular m O too. Can you talk about that, Troup, Yes,
So what had happened is Roswell Road is a very
long stretch of road in Atlanta. I want to say
it goes north and south, but I'm terrible with things
like that. But the real rapist was trolling up and
(04:53):
down Russell Road, and he would go to women and
they I think they would kind of be in their
twenties and they had like blond on and on here,
and he would say the same like have you seen
and I used to know the name Carol, Carol, have
you seen Carol? And then he'd take him in the car. Right. So,
five days after the first rape, on April ten, nearly
the same thing occurred along Roswell Road, although this ended
(05:16):
up being an attempted rape, but still the same, Hey,
do you know Carol? And where's Carol? Except the second
victim when he tried to get her to take off
her clothes. I don't know how, but she was able
to talk him out of raping her. She went to
the police. They hear this similar m O from just
five days before, and they show her the composite sketch
(05:37):
and she agreed that this sketch resembled her would be rapist. So, Pete,
you've got nothing to do with this. You have nothing
to do this. But you lived in the area, So
can you tell us how you were dragged into this
when you and two friends got pulled over on Roswell
Road one night. I was run up on Roswell And
(05:58):
and it was starting my car. It was I I
was passing on the car. So there was a compositive
kids going around in that area. So the way that
they arrested me, they told that I gave them false information.
That's just to get me there and get my photographed,
my picture to show the witness because I gave them
information while I was staying everything adequate? Are you gave
(06:21):
them accurate information? And they said yeah, they said it
was false. So you know, I can all get to police.
So so you're stopped by the police. They have this
composite sketch in the back of their minds and they
come up with a reason. They said that you gave
them false information, which wasn't true, but they wanted an
(06:41):
excuse to get your photograph to share with these two
women because they thought that you looked enough like the sketch,
so they arrested you. Then what I was there for
a while where I was there maybe about four or
five hours, but it was a relive cheap bomb, you know,
so I was bowing out then three to four hours
after I was arrested, and two weeks later I was
(07:04):
told was rape aglobator. So in Acobato solomy, and I
was arristed, and I didn't know what they were talking about.
Had you even heard about these? I didn't have a
snighters ideal. They said it was compositive circle of rapers
are in that area, and I resembled it. Now did
that sketch actually resemble you? Yeah? Actually right? So so
(07:28):
you resembled the sketch, So that was there. I didn't
you know, I didn't. I hadn't right anybody. I just
resembled it. In positive case, the sketch resembled you. And
then I'm presuming you were identified as well in the
lineup on in court. Oh, it was a line up,
and I was identifying during the trial as well. And
(07:49):
when we know that I witness miss identification is the
leading cause of wrongful convictions. And and look, I'm just
not the biggest believer in the composite sketch because the
composite sketch becomes the perpetrator, not the perpetrator, And so
it just happened to have favored him, and then it's
the composite sketch and anybody that looks like them that
(08:10):
replaces who the actual perpetrator is. So I'm just not
a believer in the whole composite sketch thing. I just
don't like where they lead, as in convictions of innocent
people in cases like this. So the charges were rape,
aggravated assault, and aggravated sodomy and drew. This is where
you first entered the picture. He became aware of Pete's case,
(08:33):
and this is at his trial where you were just
a young man just out of law school pretty much
right at the time. I was years old. I was
fresh out of law school, and I was an assistant
public defender assigned to Mr Williams courtroom where his case
took place. And you know, I made it my my
practice then that was just watched every case I could
(08:53):
and I just gobbled it up, and I loved my
job as a public defender. And I just happened to
watch his case and then really started learning about it
and I watched the trial. So what had happened is
Roswell Road is a very long stretch of road in Atlanta.
But at some point along the road, um it is
the city of Atlanta, and then it's no longer the
(09:14):
city of Atlanta. Well, the real rapist because it wasn't
Mr Williams anybody that watched the trial would realize that
because I watched the trial and I'll talk about that later,
and it was obviously was innocent. So Jason, here's the
crazy thing. One jurisdiction handling it was City of Atlanta police.
On the other part of the road was Fulton County Police.
(09:37):
To this day, I don't know if anybody's looked into
did they ever talk to one another? And in fact,
if you remember, on the City of Atlanta side, the
City of Atlanta police called the person the Roswell Road rapist.
But yet on the other side of the sign was
this case involving Mr Williams, and apparently he got arrested,
and then eventually they arrested the other guy who I
(09:59):
think pled out. Your case was on the ninth floor.
His case was on the seventh floor. Yeah, yeah, he
was on seven. You're right, yeah, um, And he pled
out during his trial and I went and watched his also,
because the Public Defender's office did that case. How how
(10:19):
far apart were the I can't remember the dates. They
weren't too far apart, but I watched his and I
read up on his and I was like, well, this
guy did it, and it was astonishing. And let's go
back to the pattern, right, because for whatever reason, the
attacker always did the same damn thing. He maybe he
thought that this was an effective way of him grabbing
(10:40):
these women, was by asking about this other woman, Carol
or Carolyn. Why he was fixated on that, Yeah, but
that was his thing. And he also had this car
that broke down a lot, because a number of the
women reported that. And what's crazy is that after Pete
was arrested, and three more attacks happened with the same
(11:01):
damn m O right, with exactly the same pattern, the
exact same pattern. And in fact, this man was responsible
clearly for all five attacks, but he only face charges
related to those three, And so the other two attacks
were penned on you Pete and this other guy, Kenth Wicker.
He finally got caught because his last victim heroically was
(11:24):
able to take down her attacker's license plate number. And
it turned out that Wicker lived right along Roswell Road
where all of these attacks were taking place. So it
would seem obvious to the casual observer that the d
A would hear about these other cases and this other
(11:44):
arrest and immediately stopped focusing on you, Pete, but that's
not what happened. And later all of this was brought
up in your appeals, and I'm talking as early as
six but the he a just didn't care about it
then or while he was prosecuting you in the first place.
(12:07):
So Jason and Pete and I we just met downstairs
and we immediately engaged in a conversation about what I'm
about to bring up which has bothered him to this day.
And I'm gonna tell it to you. And that is
our system right relies on ethical prosecutors. Unfortunately, for Pete Williams,
his prosecutor turned out to be not so ethical. Um,
(12:28):
as we know from several things, including the fact that
he's serving a life sentence in his own murder case
right now. The prosecutor the prosecutor plot twist, yes, I mean,
and was also eventually charged not only with that murder,
which he was found guilty of, but being the lawyer
for a drug operation when he was in private practice.
(12:48):
So not the best guy in the world. And and
I bring that up only because you would fathom that
a decent, ethical prosecutor, which there are many about there,
would have realized as having been the lead secutor Mr.
Williams case and said, oh, we got problems. Um, And
that never happened. He never had the ethics of a
prosecutor that realized what you just said and wanted to
(13:12):
put an end to his illegal incarceration. It just didn't happen.
And um, there was a real breakdown. Yeah, I'm still
trying to process this. Um, this is a story. I've
heard a lot of stories, and you know, doing this
since the early nineties. The irony is Pete said to
me outside we agreed. How come that didn't become the
biggest part of the story of Pete Williams illegal conviction
(13:35):
and incarceration. As he said, I was serving my sentence
and my prosecutor was serving his sense at the exact
same time. Oh so he went to prison while you
were in not the same prison, same prism, but he
went during my inceration. Did you know that? At the time, Yeah,
I thought Jason was one of the biggest cases in
(13:58):
the history of Atlantic Yeah. I can't even think in
my thirty plus years of practice of a federal case
that they changed venue. It was such a big case,
but they actually had to change venue to Birmingham and
his federal case his murder case. They changed venue as
well and did it somewhere in the woods on a
rural George or somewhere, but actually moved his federal case
(14:19):
to Birmingham because they just couldn't get a jury in Atlanta.
Fred Tokar's name. It was one of the biggest cases
in the history of Atlanta. So I took a second
to look up Fred tokers and what I found out
was batshit crazy, crazier than what Pete and Drew had said.
This Georgia prosecutor went on to become a private attorney
(14:41):
to some big time drug dealers, but besides representative, he
was also helping them hide their money in nightclubs, and
eventually his wife, Sarah threatened to blow the whistle on
his illegal and the various activities, but instead of turning
his life around, he plotted to have her kid apt
and killed in front of their four and six year
(15:02):
old boys, Rickey and Mike. I mean, what the actual fuck.
He was convicted of racketeering in and eventually also convicted
for Sarah's murder, receiving a life sentence without the possibility
of parole. He was held in secret custody as a
marked man insist this interview is recording despite his more
(15:25):
treacherous than usual situation in prison. Fred Poker's died in
May in a Pennsylvania prison hospital due to complications related
to a neurological disorder. And that was the prosecutor that
put Mr Williams away. So, I mean, it's just an
unbelievable twist of fate, right that the guy who was
(15:47):
responsible for ruining your life ends up. The Pacers Foundation
is a proud supporter of this episode and of the
Last Mile organization, which provides business and tech training to
(16:09):
help incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re enter the workforce.
The Pacers Foundation is committed to improving the lives of
Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations dedicated primarily to helping young
people and students. For more information on the work of
the Pacers Foundation or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacers
(16:29):
Foundation dot org or the Last Mile dot org. This
episode is sponsored by a i G, a leading global
insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, a
leading international law firm. The A i G Pro Bono
program provides free legal services and other support to many
(16:49):
nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need, and recently they
announced that working to reform the criminal justice system will
become a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul Weiss
has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro
bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our
society and in support of the public interest, including extensive
(17:11):
work in the criminal justice area. You end up getting
sentenced to basically a life sentence, forty five years of
life and you were twenty four at the time. Yeah,
so life And of course what if the life really
(17:32):
means life because ultimately it would be six or eight
years old and they would be asking you to lead guilty. Yeah.
And and the way they had masons online up fifteen
team and twinn do the fifteen? I want to do
the fifteen? Do the team? Or visit in do twinter?
It was consecutive sentences. So how did you deal with this?
I mean, you're behind bars, convicted rapists, looking at spending
(17:56):
your the rest of your life there? How did you
find the strength to e and continue on and ultimately
contact and reach out and get this incredible team behind
you that led to your exhoneration and you know, vindication
mm hmmm. When my first teen year of prison, man
I was stayed in the whole segregation, I fought all
(18:16):
the time into born names because I felt like that
wasn't no hope, so I might as well be part
of the prison, you know. And I met this guy
aufter ten years. It's on gospel. He always went to
church and he would always happen, you know, and he
had more time and that. Yeah, but I like Smerson,
(18:38):
but he's never showed it. He never showed her. And
I want to know why, you know why I wasn't
about he said the church man, I say that gospel.
It makes me feel better. So I used to go
out and saying it first because I really didn't know
it the gospel, you know what I mean. But once
I got to going and listen to gospel on a
few gospel songs, and I started liking it. And not
(18:59):
to ain't pulled a quiet for about five years. And
that's where a guy was in there. He had a
book loot concerning Amazon products. So I got it and
I started writing them and told him that it was
I had some more evidence. Was this Georgia insence Project
of New York and George and Georgia. Yeah, and they
got concerned to what kind of epidence you? So I
(19:20):
was writing them and I told him, and some way
they got a hold of it. They said they had
destroyed it here and eighty seven and they said they
destroyed all that. But cliff some way, Clifford told to
some at the GB I be on some female and
see allowed him back there and lo and behold, that
was my own evidence. And the evidence at the Georgia
(19:43):
Bureau of Investigation that Pete is referring to is the
real rapist DNA sample from the rape kit, and they
were finally able to test it to not only exclude Pete,
but they also tested against the DNA of the man
who had pleaded guilty to those other rapes that had
happened during the same time period along Roswell, and sure enough, Bingo,
it's him. But of course, this incredible revelation did not
(20:07):
come without roadblocks and even being told that the evidence
was destroyed, which we hear a lot when fighting cases
like these. And Drew, let's let's go back to you
on this. It's it's I mean, it's just nuts that
we don't have a nationwide standard from maintaining evidence. In fact,
practices are different all over. Some are good and some are, like,
(20:29):
let's face it, like a third world country. There's really
no national consistency. And and so you know when you
say earlier, which I completely agree with, that we probably
have well over a hundred thousand innocent people in our
in our prison systems, and and that's probably a low number.
We think about if we had consistency in the preservation
(20:50):
of evidence, what would we'd be able to do. It's
really going to require a coordinated effort. But it's the
only right thing to do. There's just absolutely no argument
against it. There's nothing bad about preserving evidence. Well, there's
there's nothing bad about preserving evidence. But then you hear
about the Georgia Innocence Project. I went down to to
(21:11):
make in on behalf of them and argued about just
having somebody's testing done, and prosecutors objected to testing being done.
Why would you ever object to testing being done? Why
would you ever object to being able to check off
the list? The possibility that somebody innocent is in jail
for many years, if not their life. And it's that
(21:31):
same type of flawed logic um that would have some say, well,
we don't need to take up the room, we don't
need to do the logistics aren't there for storage. You
could just fathom the arguments that are coming with, you know,
because prosecutors want to believe in law enforcement, want to
believe that once they have a conviction, it's the right conviction,
and so you're gonna always deal with that sentiment, which
(21:53):
is wrong. That's the sentiment. It's the same sentiment that
dictates around the country when good folks are are are
fighting a half of the innocent project to have testing
done and they're in courtrooms at the podium facing prosecutors
that don't want testing to be done. To me, why
would you want to destroy person well and identify the
(22:15):
actual perpetrator like it does, I don't even know what
to think of that. Thank god they hadn't actually destroyed
the evidence from your case, because they actually exculpated you
and it ended up causing you to be released from
prison on January two thousand seven, and subsequently it matched
(22:37):
up to Kenneth Wicker, who had already pleaded guilty all
those years ago. He was then arrested on February nine,
two thousand seven for the April fifth and tenth incidents.
Then four days later you were granted a new trial
on February and the d A subsequently dropped all charges,
(22:59):
but all the charges, you know, they took the rape
and everything away from my So you were in court
when all the charges were actually dropped. And what was
that like? How? Who was there? A lot of family?
Was it at my family? My family? And there was
a lot of people it was happy for me, you know,
even people I didn't know, you know, like even the polices.
(23:23):
And as a matter of fact, one of the polices
that was you just take me back and forth the
coot and she came down and said, I always knew
you was innocent. Wow. How did that feel? One one?
And it's worth noting that in about and this is
project cases that where DNA has has exculpated an exonerate
(23:45):
led the exoneration of an innocent person, it has also
led to the identification of the guilty person. That's absolutely right.
And in those cases, of course, um that person has
gone on to have committed other heinous crimes. When you
lock up the wrong person, you stop looking for the
right person, and then that person that's out there is
(24:07):
most likely going to go and do what they did again.
It's just a practical issue of we should all want
to clean up these systems as best we can so
that our ourselves and our families are safe. I mean, well,
you know, look, Jason, I think it's it's symptomatic of
a larger issue. It's a symptomatic of our of our
problem with mass incarceration of this country. I think it's
(24:30):
UM all that is really tied in UM. We don't
as defense attorneys and accused citizens, you know, we don't
control the fact that UM as you well know, we
represent five percent of the world's population, but closing of
the world incarcerated population, we don't dictate that. And I
don't want this to be a session where I'm, you know,
kind of talking about prosecutors, but they control so much.
(24:53):
Pete's case is emblematic of the problem. You had a
prosecutor what an antisocial disorder that went on to be
involved in a murder himself. And as a as a
twenty five year old, fresh out of law school kid,
I watched what I thought was an unethical prosecution, and
I watched a man lose his freedom because to this prosecutor,
it was a game. It wasn't about justice. And that's
(25:15):
why Pete, I made a decision that I was gonna
spend the rest of my life defending people because of
your case. It was just a job. At that point.
I didn't know anything about a public defender. I never
even met a lawyer until my first law school class.
I have humble beginnings, but your your case dictated to
me what I wanted to spend the rest of my
life doing. I watched that prosecutor game the system. It
(25:45):
was just a game to him, and and unfortunately, the
power that being a prosecutor brings is often results in
misguided prosecutions because they have the ability, if they handle ethically,
to make sure to the best of their ability, that
just doesn't happen, to make sure that evidence is preserved,
to make sure that there is proper identification procedures, and
(26:09):
they have the ability to be that wall that lasts
wall of justice to say, you know, I don't I
don't need a motion to suppress identification because as the prosecutor,
I don't like the way this went down. We talk
so much about ourselves as defense attorneys and what our
job is but we need to be spending a lot
of time looking at the other side of the courtroom.
(26:30):
And I get that there's integrity units closing up, but
it needs to be a lot greater than that. It
needs to be a lot better than just every once
in a while a progressive prosecutor running for office. It
needs to be all over the country because he has
the benefit of this happening in Atlanta, But when we
go to the rural South, the smaller communities in Mississippi
(26:52):
and Alabama and Tennessee, sadly, there's a lot of of
Pete Williams that are serving life sentences um for from
prosecutors that were as misguided and as corrupt as the
one in his case. And that's why it's so important
for people to get out and vote in prosecutor racist
because most people don't. The number of people that vote
(27:12):
in these races is so small that if you don't
think your vote makes a difference, it does. I mean,
we've seen races that ended up in a dead heat,
like tied. You know, like your vote is important, and
if you're on of those people thinks so I'm not
gonna vote in the presidential election, it doesn't matter. Yes,
it does. It matters in the presidentialism, but it ladd
is a lot more and your local elections where your
your d A is running um and you know, and
(27:34):
electing a a progressive prosecutor, which that's not even the
right word, A fair prosecutor could affect your life as well,
because this could happen to you, could happen to Pete,
It could happen to anybody. We see it over and
over again on this show. And then let's even talk
about it from a purely fiscal level, you know, for
any conservatives that are listening, When we think about the
amount of money that the taxpayers of Georgia paid well
(27:56):
upwards of a million dollars, probably closer to two million
dollars to keep Pete lock up, and then any other
income that he would have been able to earn and
pay taxes on, and you know, all the rest of
the stuff. That's a pretty big thing too. I just
learned the other day on a tangential note, that we
spend forty million dollars a day in America on pre
trial detention, right just because people can't post bail forty
(28:20):
million a day to lock people up who haven't been
convicted of anything. That's a day, that's your tax dollars
at work, and mind by the way, and whoever's listening,
it's nuts. I mean, we lock up more people than
Russia and China combined. Back to your previous point, we
locked black people up at six times the rate of
South Africa at the height of apartheid. And if you're
(28:41):
a woman listening, then you should just process this for
a second, because while you know what Drew said is
certainly scary and true about us having the world's prison population,
we have thirty three of the world's female prison population.
That means one out of every three women in prison
in the world is in America, which is such a
small country when you look at the vast world that's
(29:04):
out there. And the more we can do to get
out there and spread the message, and the more you
do to get out there and vote and get active
and volunteer, go to Georgia Innocence Project a website, you know,
learn more. Contact an a c d L. What is it,
an a cd L dot org exactly, an a c
DL dot org. That's National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers
dot org. So I'm glad you brought up kind of
(29:24):
where people fall on the political continuum. You should know
that the term just finished and there's a new governor here.
But our last governor, Nathan Deal, was a Republican to
term Republican, and the National Associational Criminal Defense Lawyers gave
him a Champion I gave him a Champion of Justice
Award for his work on criminal justice reform. And so
you hit on it no matter where you are, left wing,
(29:46):
right wing, no wing. We are at a period of
time right now where people are really focusing on criminal
justice reform. And I think that you bring up all
the numbers, they're they're startling and it can impact anybody,
you know, whether it's the fact that our prison systems
are warehousing the mentally ill and adult autistic population. UM.
(30:06):
There's so many things that attract people. UM. The National
Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers UM, we as you know,
we have our foundation for criminal justice and we really
embrace non lawyers to be part of it. Our long
term goal is to get non lawyers into our leadership track. UM.
Let them be trustees. We need people to reach out
(30:27):
to us because we just want everyday citizens to be involved.
Come to our meetings and Jason's right. There may not
be an election that may impact your life more than
who your local district attorney is. Have them answer to
your questions. Folks need to take these stories to heart,
and which is why this podcast is so important. They
(30:48):
need to understand that not everybody is going to be
blessed with the opportunity to connect up with the innocence projects.
So listen to podcasts like this and get involved the
most of you can. UM. And that is once again
in a CDL dot org National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.
Now we have this tradition at Wrongful Conviction, which is
(31:10):
my favorite part of the show, which is where I
get to just sit back and listen and uh, I
leave the microphones on for you guys for any closing
thoughts that you want to share. And because Pete is
the honored guest here, not that you're not, but you
know he's the star of the show, I'm gonna let
him go last, and so drew any parting shots. Pete.
(31:35):
I just want to uh, I wish you the best
and let let you know that the tragedy occurred to you,
UM influence the course of my existence. So my family,
all my clients. I want to hug you, Pete. I'm
(32:00):
glad you broadcast to let people know that things like
this actually happen. People do go to jail wrong from
they're convicted, and I'm just glad you all been the
pubment know that these things actually happen. Don't forget to
(32:22):
give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn
how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music
(32:45):
on the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer
Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful
Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for
Good Podcasts and associate was Signal Company number one
This episode was recorded pre COVID at the Atlanta Innocence
Network conference in two thousand nineteen. On April fifth, a
woman was exiting her car at a parking lot just
north of Atlanta when a man approached, asking about a
woman named Carol. When he got close enough, he pulled
a gun, forced her into the passenger seat, drove to
(00:22):
a dead end, and proceeded to raper. After the attack,
the victim went to the hospital for a rape kit.
With a well lit parking lot and over forty five
minutes with her attacker, she was able to put together
a composite sketch. On April tenth, a near identical incident
occurred along the same stretch of road. A man approached
a woman in a parking lot and asking for Carol,
(00:44):
before using a thread of violence to get her back
into the car. However, this time the victim was able
to talk the attacker into leaving before a rap occurred.
The police showed this would be victim the composite sketch,
and it appeared there was a serial rapist operating in
the North Atlanta area. Then on April Willie Pete Williams,
(01:05):
along with two of his friends, were stopped by police
for suspicious behavior in the area of the attacks. Police
noticed that Pete resembled the sketch and came up with
a reason to arrest him, saying that he gave them
false information in order to bring him in to be photographed.
His photo was shown to both women for a positive
i D. While Pete was locked up, Three more attacks
(01:28):
would occur with the same m O, but it was
already too late. Pete Williams spent nearly twenty two years
in prison before DNA testing proved that another man was
responsible for all five attacks. This is wrongful conviction with
Jason Flom. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. This episode is
(02:01):
gonna be a very unique one. We have with us
Pete Williams, who served twenty two years in Georgia prisons
for a rape he did not commit, two rapes, actually
they did not commit. And with him is Drew Findling,
who is uh can I say, enigmatic character, famous for
(02:22):
his work representing some of the top hip hop artis
in the world, and he's also now the president of
the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He got involved
in criminal defense work because of Pete's case, but they
never met until today. So this is gonna be a
fun ride, and I'm excited to be honest. So Pete,
welcome and same to you, Drew. And like I always say, Pete,
(02:45):
I'm I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here.
And I want to tell your story because I think
it's an important story for a lot of reasons. I
guess that at the heart of it is a mistaken
witness identification more than one actually, and it's a really
important thing for us to talk about because it's so common.
But can you take us back to I mean, this
is a long time ago, right, because you were exonerating
(03:05):
two thousand seven with the help of the Innocence Project,
So this crime goes all the way back to the
mid eighties, right, And what were you up to back then?
What was your life like? What was going on in
in Pete's world? Most of that was working, uh and
(03:26):
dropped out of school. Really didn't have much going on
other than freedom. How were you I just so you're
twenty three. You got charged with originally one rape right
at the time, and let's talk about this awful rape
which occurred on April, which is when a woman arrived
(03:48):
at her apartment complex parking lot along Roswell Road, just
north of Atlanta, got out, but she got out a
man approach, pretending that he was looking for someone, but
when he got close, he pulled a gun and forced
her back into the car, then drove her at gunpoint
to a dead end street where he raped her. Then
he drove her back to her apartment complex, and then
(04:09):
he left on foot. So the victim then went to
the police and the hospital for a rape kit, which
means there was a sample of the rapist d N A.
And that becomes important later because after all, there was
no DNA testing back in anyway. So later on, though,
we're gonna get to that. So by now the victim
had spent a considerable amount of time with her attacker,
(04:31):
and as a result, she was able to help the
police put together a composite sketch. And this attacker had
a particular m O too. Can you talk about that, Troup, Yes,
So what had happened is Roswell Road is a very
long stretch of road in Atlanta. I want to say
it goes north and south, but I'm terrible with things
like that. But the real rapist was trolling up and
(04:53):
down Russell Road, and he would go to women and
they I think they would kind of be in their
twenties and they had like blond on and on here,
and he would say the same like have you seen
and I used to know the name Carol, Carol, have
you seen Carol? And then he'd take him in the car. Right. So,
five days after the first rape, on April ten, nearly
the same thing occurred along Roswell Road, although this ended
(05:16):
up being an attempted rape, but still the same, Hey,
do you know Carol? And where's Carol? Except the second
victim when he tried to get her to take off
her clothes. I don't know how, but she was able
to talk him out of raping her. She went to
the police. They hear this similar m O from just
five days before, and they show her the composite sketch
(05:37):
and she agreed that this sketch resembled her would be rapist. So, Pete,
you've got nothing to do with this. You have nothing
to do this. But you lived in the area, So
can you tell us how you were dragged into this
when you and two friends got pulled over on Roswell
Road one night. I was run up on Roswell And
(05:58):
and it was starting my car. It was I I
was passing on the car. So there was a compositive
kids going around in that area. So the way that
they arrested me, they told that I gave them false information.
That's just to get me there and get my photographed,
my picture to show the witness because I gave them
information while I was staying everything adequate? Are you gave
(06:21):
them accurate information? And they said yeah, they said it
was false. So you know, I can all get to police.
So so you're stopped by the police. They have this
composite sketch in the back of their minds and they
come up with a reason. They said that you gave
them false information, which wasn't true, but they wanted an
(06:41):
excuse to get your photograph to share with these two
women because they thought that you looked enough like the sketch,
so they arrested you. Then what I was there for
a while where I was there maybe about four or
five hours, but it was a relive cheap bomb, you know,
so I was bowing out then three to four hours
after I was arrested, and two weeks later I was
(07:04):
told was rape aglobator. So in Acobato solomy, and I
was arristed, and I didn't know what they were talking about.
Had you even heard about these? I didn't have a
snighters ideal. They said it was compositive circle of rapers
are in that area, and I resembled it. Now did
that sketch actually resemble you? Yeah? Actually right? So so
(07:28):
you resembled the sketch, So that was there. I didn't
you know, I didn't. I hadn't right anybody. I just
resembled it. In positive case, the sketch resembled you. And
then I'm presuming you were identified as well in the
lineup on in court. Oh, it was a line up,
and I was identifying during the trial as well. And
(07:49):
when we know that I witness miss identification is the
leading cause of wrongful convictions. And and look, I'm just
not the biggest believer in the composite sketch because the
composite sketch becomes the perpetrator, not the perpetrator, And so
it just happened to have favored him, and then it's
the composite sketch and anybody that looks like them that
(08:10):
replaces who the actual perpetrator is. So I'm just not
a believer in the whole composite sketch thing. I just
don't like where they lead, as in convictions of innocent
people in cases like this. So the charges were rape,
aggravated assault, and aggravated sodomy and drew. This is where
you first entered the picture. He became aware of Pete's case,
(08:33):
and this is at his trial where you were just
a young man just out of law school pretty much
right at the time. I was years old. I was
fresh out of law school, and I was an assistant
public defender assigned to Mr Williams courtroom where his case
took place. And you know, I made it my my
practice then that was just watched every case I could
(08:53):
and I just gobbled it up, and I loved my
job as a public defender. And I just happened to
watch his case and then really started learning about it
and I watched the trial. So what had happened is
Roswell Road is a very long stretch of road in Atlanta.
But at some point along the road, um it is
the city of Atlanta, and then it's no longer the
(09:14):
city of Atlanta. Well, the real rapist because it wasn't
Mr Williams anybody that watched the trial would realize that
because I watched the trial and I'll talk about that later,
and it was obviously was innocent. So Jason, here's the
crazy thing. One jurisdiction handling it was City of Atlanta police.
On the other part of the road was Fulton County Police.
(09:37):
To this day, I don't know if anybody's looked into
did they ever talk to one another? And in fact,
if you remember, on the City of Atlanta side, the
City of Atlanta police called the person the Roswell Road rapist.
But yet on the other side of the sign was
this case involving Mr Williams, and apparently he got arrested,
and then eventually they arrested the other guy who I
(09:59):
think pled out. Your case was on the ninth floor.
His case was on the seventh floor. Yeah, yeah, he
was on seven. You're right, yeah, um, And he pled
out during his trial and I went and watched his also,
because the Public Defender's office did that case. How how
(10:19):
far apart were the I can't remember the dates. They
weren't too far apart, but I watched his and I
read up on his and I was like, well, this
guy did it, and it was astonishing. And let's go
back to the pattern, right, because for whatever reason, the
attacker always did the same damn thing. He maybe he
thought that this was an effective way of him grabbing
(10:40):
these women, was by asking about this other woman, Carol
or Carolyn. Why he was fixated on that, Yeah, but
that was his thing. And he also had this car
that broke down a lot, because a number of the
women reported that. And what's crazy is that after Pete
was arrested, and three more attacks happened with the same
(11:01):
damn m O right, with exactly the same pattern, the
exact same pattern. And in fact, this man was responsible
clearly for all five attacks, but he only face charges
related to those three, And so the other two attacks
were penned on you Pete and this other guy, Kenth Wicker.
He finally got caught because his last victim heroically was
(11:24):
able to take down her attacker's license plate number. And
it turned out that Wicker lived right along Roswell Road
where all of these attacks were taking place. So it
would seem obvious to the casual observer that the d
A would hear about these other cases and this other
(11:44):
arrest and immediately stopped focusing on you, Pete, but that's
not what happened. And later all of this was brought
up in your appeals, and I'm talking as early as
six but the he a just didn't care about it
then or while he was prosecuting you in the first place.
(12:07):
So Jason and Pete and I we just met downstairs
and we immediately engaged in a conversation about what I'm
about to bring up which has bothered him to this day.
And I'm gonna tell it to you. And that is
our system right relies on ethical prosecutors. Unfortunately, for Pete Williams,
his prosecutor turned out to be not so ethical. Um,
(12:28):
as we know from several things, including the fact that
he's serving a life sentence in his own murder case
right now. The prosecutor the prosecutor plot twist, yes, I mean,
and was also eventually charged not only with that murder,
which he was found guilty of, but being the lawyer
for a drug operation when he was in private practice.
(12:48):
So not the best guy in the world. And and
I bring that up only because you would fathom that
a decent, ethical prosecutor, which there are many about there,
would have realized as having been the lead secutor Mr.
Williams case and said, oh, we got problems. Um, And
that never happened. He never had the ethics of a
prosecutor that realized what you just said and wanted to
(13:12):
put an end to his illegal incarceration. It just didn't happen.
And um, there was a real breakdown. Yeah, I'm still
trying to process this. Um, this is a story. I've
heard a lot of stories, and you know, doing this
since the early nineties. The irony is Pete said to
me outside we agreed. How come that didn't become the
biggest part of the story of Pete Williams illegal conviction
(13:35):
and incarceration. As he said, I was serving my sentence
and my prosecutor was serving his sense at the exact
same time. Oh so he went to prison while you
were in not the same prison, same prism, but he
went during my inceration. Did you know that? At the time, Yeah,
I thought Jason was one of the biggest cases in
(13:58):
the history of Atlantic Yeah. I can't even think in
my thirty plus years of practice of a federal case
that they changed venue. It was such a big case,
but they actually had to change venue to Birmingham and
his federal case his murder case. They changed venue as
well and did it somewhere in the woods on a
rural George or somewhere, but actually moved his federal case
(14:19):
to Birmingham because they just couldn't get a jury in Atlanta.
Fred Tokar's name. It was one of the biggest cases
in the history of Atlanta. So I took a second
to look up Fred tokers and what I found out
was batshit crazy, crazier than what Pete and Drew had said.
This Georgia prosecutor went on to become a private attorney
(14:41):
to some big time drug dealers, but besides representative, he
was also helping them hide their money in nightclubs, and
eventually his wife, Sarah threatened to blow the whistle on
his illegal and the various activities, but instead of turning
his life around, he plotted to have her kid apt
and killed in front of their four and six year
(15:02):
old boys, Rickey and Mike. I mean, what the actual fuck.
He was convicted of racketeering in and eventually also convicted
for Sarah's murder, receiving a life sentence without the possibility
of parole. He was held in secret custody as a
marked man insist this interview is recording despite his more
(15:25):
treacherous than usual situation in prison. Fred Poker's died in
May in a Pennsylvania prison hospital due to complications related
to a neurological disorder. And that was the prosecutor that
put Mr Williams away. So, I mean, it's just an
unbelievable twist of fate, right that the guy who was
(15:47):
responsible for ruining your life ends up. The Pacers Foundation
is a proud supporter of this episode and of the
Last Mile organization, which provides business and tech training to
(16:09):
help incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re enter the workforce.
The Pacers Foundation is committed to improving the lives of
Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations dedicated primarily to helping young
people and students. For more information on the work of
the Pacers Foundation or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacers
(16:29):
Foundation dot org or the Last Mile dot org. This
episode is sponsored by a i G, a leading global
insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, a
leading international law firm. The A i G Pro Bono
program provides free legal services and other support to many
(16:49):
nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need, and recently they
announced that working to reform the criminal justice system will
become a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul Weiss
has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro
bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our
society and in support of the public interest, including extensive
(17:11):
work in the criminal justice area. You end up getting
sentenced to basically a life sentence, forty five years of
life and you were twenty four at the time. Yeah,
so life And of course what if the life really
(17:32):
means life because ultimately it would be six or eight
years old and they would be asking you to lead guilty. Yeah.
And and the way they had masons online up fifteen
team and twinn do the fifteen? I want to do
the fifteen? Do the team? Or visit in do twinter?
It was consecutive sentences. So how did you deal with this?
I mean, you're behind bars, convicted rapists, looking at spending
(17:56):
your the rest of your life there? How did you
find the strength to e and continue on and ultimately
contact and reach out and get this incredible team behind
you that led to your exhoneration and you know, vindication
mm hmmm. When my first teen year of prison, man
I was stayed in the whole segregation, I fought all
(18:16):
the time into born names because I felt like that
wasn't no hope, so I might as well be part
of the prison, you know. And I met this guy
aufter ten years. It's on gospel. He always went to
church and he would always happen, you know, and he
had more time and that. Yeah, but I like Smerson,
(18:38):
but he's never showed it. He never showed her. And
I want to know why, you know why I wasn't
about he said the church man, I say that gospel.
It makes me feel better. So I used to go
out and saying it first because I really didn't know
it the gospel, you know what I mean. But once
I got to going and listen to gospel on a
few gospel songs, and I started liking it. And not
(18:59):
to ain't pulled a quiet for about five years. And
that's where a guy was in there. He had a
book loot concerning Amazon products. So I got it and
I started writing them and told him that it was
I had some more evidence. Was this Georgia insence Project
of New York and George and Georgia. Yeah, and they
got concerned to what kind of epidence you? So I
(19:20):
was writing them and I told him, and some way
they got a hold of it. They said they had
destroyed it here and eighty seven and they said they
destroyed all that. But cliff some way, Clifford told to
some at the GB I be on some female and
see allowed him back there and lo and behold, that
was my own evidence. And the evidence at the Georgia
(19:43):
Bureau of Investigation that Pete is referring to is the
real rapist DNA sample from the rape kit, and they
were finally able to test it to not only exclude Pete,
but they also tested against the DNA of the man
who had pleaded guilty to those other rapes that had
happened during the same time period along Roswell, and sure enough, Bingo,
it's him. But of course, this incredible revelation did not
(20:07):
come without roadblocks and even being told that the evidence
was destroyed, which we hear a lot when fighting cases
like these. And Drew, let's let's go back to you
on this. It's it's I mean, it's just nuts that
we don't have a nationwide standard from maintaining evidence. In fact,
practices are different all over. Some are good and some are, like,
(20:29):
let's face it, like a third world country. There's really
no national consistency. And and so you know when you
say earlier, which I completely agree with, that we probably
have well over a hundred thousand innocent people in our
in our prison systems, and and that's probably a low number.
We think about if we had consistency in the preservation
(20:50):
of evidence, what would we'd be able to do. It's
really going to require a coordinated effort. But it's the
only right thing to do. There's just absolutely no argument
against it. There's nothing bad about preserving evidence. Well, there's
there's nothing bad about preserving evidence. But then you hear
about the Georgia Innocence Project. I went down to to
(21:11):
make in on behalf of them and argued about just
having somebody's testing done, and prosecutors objected to testing being done.
Why would you ever object to testing being done? Why
would you ever object to being able to check off
the list? The possibility that somebody innocent is in jail
for many years, if not their life. And it's that
(21:31):
same type of flawed logic um that would have some say, well,
we don't need to take up the room, we don't
need to do the logistics aren't there for storage. You
could just fathom the arguments that are coming with, you know,
because prosecutors want to believe in law enforcement, want to
believe that once they have a conviction, it's the right conviction,
and so you're gonna always deal with that sentiment, which
(21:53):
is wrong. That's the sentiment. It's the same sentiment that
dictates around the country when good folks are are are
fighting a half of the innocent project to have testing
done and they're in courtrooms at the podium facing prosecutors
that don't want testing to be done. To me, why
would you want to destroy person well and identify the
(22:15):
actual perpetrator like it does, I don't even know what
to think of that. Thank god they hadn't actually destroyed
the evidence from your case, because they actually exculpated you
and it ended up causing you to be released from
prison on January two thousand seven, and subsequently it matched
(22:37):
up to Kenneth Wicker, who had already pleaded guilty all
those years ago. He was then arrested on February nine,
two thousand seven for the April fifth and tenth incidents.
Then four days later you were granted a new trial
on February and the d A subsequently dropped all charges,
(22:59):
but all the charges, you know, they took the rape
and everything away from my So you were in court
when all the charges were actually dropped. And what was
that like? How? Who was there? A lot of family?
Was it at my family? My family? And there was
a lot of people it was happy for me, you know,
even people I didn't know, you know, like even the polices.
(23:23):
And as a matter of fact, one of the polices
that was you just take me back and forth the
coot and she came down and said, I always knew
you was innocent. Wow. How did that feel? One one?
And it's worth noting that in about and this is
project cases that where DNA has has exculpated an exonerate
(23:45):
led the exoneration of an innocent person, it has also
led to the identification of the guilty person. That's absolutely right.
And in those cases, of course, um that person has
gone on to have committed other heinous crimes. When you
lock up the wrong person, you stop looking for the
right person, and then that person that's out there is
(24:07):
most likely going to go and do what they did again.
It's just a practical issue of we should all want
to clean up these systems as best we can so
that our ourselves and our families are safe. I mean, well,
you know, look, Jason, I think it's it's symptomatic of
a larger issue. It's a symptomatic of our of our
problem with mass incarceration of this country. I think it's
(24:30):
UM all that is really tied in UM. We don't
as defense attorneys and accused citizens, you know, we don't
control the fact that UM as you well know, we
represent five percent of the world's population, but closing of
the world incarcerated population, we don't dictate that. And I
don't want this to be a session where I'm, you know,
kind of talking about prosecutors, but they control so much.
(24:53):
Pete's case is emblematic of the problem. You had a
prosecutor what an antisocial disorder that went on to be
involved in a murder himself. And as a as a
twenty five year old, fresh out of law school kid,
I watched what I thought was an unethical prosecution, and
I watched a man lose his freedom because to this prosecutor,
it was a game. It wasn't about justice. And that's
(25:15):
why Pete, I made a decision that I was gonna
spend the rest of my life defending people because of
your case. It was just a job. At that point.
I didn't know anything about a public defender. I never
even met a lawyer until my first law school class.
I have humble beginnings, but your your case dictated to
me what I wanted to spend the rest of my
life doing. I watched that prosecutor game the system. It
(25:45):
was just a game to him, and and unfortunately, the
power that being a prosecutor brings is often results in
misguided prosecutions because they have the ability, if they handle ethically,
to make sure to the best of their ability, that
just doesn't happen, to make sure that evidence is preserved,
to make sure that there is proper identification procedures, and
(26:09):
they have the ability to be that wall that lasts
wall of justice to say, you know, I don't I
don't need a motion to suppress identification because as the prosecutor,
I don't like the way this went down. We talk
so much about ourselves as defense attorneys and what our
job is but we need to be spending a lot
of time looking at the other side of the courtroom.
(26:30):
And I get that there's integrity units closing up, but
it needs to be a lot greater than that. It
needs to be a lot better than just every once
in a while a progressive prosecutor running for office. It
needs to be all over the country because he has
the benefit of this happening in Atlanta, But when we
go to the rural South, the smaller communities in Mississippi
(26:52):
and Alabama and Tennessee, sadly, there's a lot of of
Pete Williams that are serving life sentences um for from
prosecutors that were as misguided and as corrupt as the
one in his case. And that's why it's so important
for people to get out and vote in prosecutor racist
because most people don't. The number of people that vote
(27:12):
in these races is so small that if you don't
think your vote makes a difference, it does. I mean,
we've seen races that ended up in a dead heat,
like tied. You know, like your vote is important, and
if you're on of those people thinks so I'm not
gonna vote in the presidential election, it doesn't matter. Yes,
it does. It matters in the presidentialism, but it ladd
is a lot more and your local elections where your
your d A is running um and you know, and
(27:34):
electing a a progressive prosecutor, which that's not even the
right word, A fair prosecutor could affect your life as well,
because this could happen to you, could happen to Pete,
It could happen to anybody. We see it over and
over again on this show. And then let's even talk
about it from a purely fiscal level, you know, for
any conservatives that are listening, When we think about the
amount of money that the taxpayers of Georgia paid well
(27:56):
upwards of a million dollars, probably closer to two million
dollars to keep Pete lock up, and then any other
income that he would have been able to earn and
pay taxes on, and you know, all the rest of
the stuff. That's a pretty big thing too. I just
learned the other day on a tangential note, that we
spend forty million dollars a day in America on pre
trial detention, right just because people can't post bail forty
(28:20):
million a day to lock people up who haven't been
convicted of anything. That's a day, that's your tax dollars
at work, and mind by the way, and whoever's listening,
it's nuts. I mean, we lock up more people than
Russia and China combined. Back to your previous point, we
locked black people up at six times the rate of
South Africa at the height of apartheid. And if you're
(28:41):
a woman listening, then you should just process this for
a second, because while you know what Drew said is
certainly scary and true about us having the world's prison population,
we have thirty three of the world's female prison population.
That means one out of every three women in prison
in the world is in America, which is such a
small country when you look at the vast world that's
(29:04):
out there. And the more we can do to get
out there and spread the message, and the more you
do to get out there and vote and get active
and volunteer, go to Georgia Innocence Project a website, you know,
learn more. Contact an a c d L. What is it,
an a cd L dot org exactly, an a c
DL dot org. That's National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers
dot org. So I'm glad you brought up kind of
(29:24):
where people fall on the political continuum. You should know
that the term just finished and there's a new governor here.
But our last governor, Nathan Deal, was a Republican to
term Republican, and the National Associational Criminal Defense Lawyers gave
him a Champion I gave him a Champion of Justice
Award for his work on criminal justice reform. And so
you hit on it no matter where you are, left wing,
(29:46):
right wing, no wing. We are at a period of
time right now where people are really focusing on criminal
justice reform. And I think that you bring up all
the numbers, they're they're startling and it can impact anybody,
you know, whether it's the fact that our prison systems
are warehousing the mentally ill and adult autistic population. UM.
(30:06):
There's so many things that attract people. UM. The National
Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers UM, we as you know,
we have our foundation for criminal justice and we really
embrace non lawyers to be part of it. Our long
term goal is to get non lawyers into our leadership track. UM.
Let them be trustees. We need people to reach out
(30:27):
to us because we just want everyday citizens to be involved.
Come to our meetings and Jason's right. There may not
be an election that may impact your life more than
who your local district attorney is. Have them answer to
your questions. Folks need to take these stories to heart,
and which is why this podcast is so important. They
(30:48):
need to understand that not everybody is going to be
blessed with the opportunity to connect up with the innocence projects.
So listen to podcasts like this and get involved the
most of you can. UM. And that is once again
in a CDL dot org National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.
Now we have this tradition at Wrongful Conviction, which is
(31:10):
my favorite part of the show, which is where I
get to just sit back and listen and uh, I
leave the microphones on for you guys for any closing
thoughts that you want to share. And because Pete is
the honored guest here, not that you're not, but you
know he's the star of the show, I'm gonna let
him go last, and so drew any parting shots. Pete.
(31:35):
I just want to uh, I wish you the best
and let let you know that the tragedy occurred to you,
UM influence the course of my existence. So my family,
all my clients. I want to hug you, Pete. I'm
(32:00):
glad you broadcast to let people know that things like
this actually happen. People do go to jail wrong from
they're convicted, and I'm just glad you all been the
pubment know that these things actually happen. Don't forget to
(32:22):
give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn
how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music
(32:45):
on the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer
Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful
Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for
Good Podcasts and associate was Signal Company number one
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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