November 20, 2017 • 48 mins
Charles Manson's life prison sentence has ended. Diane Lake was just 14 when Manson lured her into his "family," making her the youngest member of the cult when it was busted in the wake of a series of mass murders. Lake, who wrote about her experiences in her book Member of the Family, shares her story with Nancy Grace in this episode. Major crimes investigator Karen Smith and Manson expert Alisa Statman, author of Restless Souls: The Sharon Tate Family's Account of Stardom, the Manson Murders, and a Crusade for Justice, also join the discussion.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph
Channel one thirty two. Is Charlie Manson crazy whatever that means. Sure,
he's crazy as a man, as a hatter, what differences
in me? And I started fanning and I turned into
the animals? You know, I just did you tell the
women to do their witchy things? I said, if you're
(00:27):
going to do something, leave something witchy, just like I
would tell you. If you're going to do something, do
it with and leave something. You leave a sign to
let the world know that you would have a good
game right now. Charles Nelson, the leader of the Killer Cult,
is dead and his stay in the penitentiary was just
(00:48):
a pit stop to h e Double l a former
convicted felon. He brings together dozens of young people, dozens
of let me just say, misfits, people that felt they
were misfits anyway, whether they were or not. He brought
them all together as a family. They all settled in together,
(01:10):
kind of commune style, at a ranch near l A.
But then for two nights he instructs his followers to
go on a murder spree and they do horrific murders.
Some crime scenes unlike anything police had ever seen before.
(01:35):
Words written on the walls and the victims blood, dead
bodies strown through fancy homes in the l A area.
I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us right now. Joining me a very special guest,
in fact, two of them, Diane Lake, the author of
(01:57):
Member of the Family, a new book out now, the
youngest member of the Charles Manson family. She later helped
send him to jail. Also joining me, the author of
Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate Family's account of stardom, the
Manson murders, and a Crusade for Justice. A Lisa with
(02:19):
us along with Karen Smith, major crimes investigator, and Alan
the Dupe dup joining me from l A thank you
all for being with us. First to Diane Lake, author
of Member of the Family, Diane, when you hear it
laid out so coldly? Did this former convict managed to
(02:39):
bring together a band of self professed misfits as a
family who then go on a deadly murder spree? What
was it about Charles Manson that attracted you? What about
him was so compelling? He was very charismatic, um he
(03:00):
had the ability to become whoever it was that you
needed in your life. What do you mean by that?
I felt alone. I didn't feel like I fit in
with the counterculture groups that I'd been introduced to previously.
And he welcomed me, and the girls welcomed me. And
(03:24):
it was a He was a musician, primarily singing songs
that he'd written, and he was playful and and really
very loving in the beginning with me. Is the youngest
member of the Manson family. Her name is Diane Lake,
and she's the author of a brand new book, Member
(03:45):
of the Family. Now, Diane, you met Charles Manson at
just fourteen years old, and we're increasingly mystified and intrigued
and captivated with him. How old was he when you
met him at age fourteen? I believe he was thirty four. Wow, Okay,
(04:07):
he's thirty four. You're fourteen. Explain to me when you
say playful and loving, what do you mean by that?
He you know, tells all your hair, make jokes, make
funny faces. Um. He had a way of just making
you feel like you were the only one that he loved.
(04:30):
The only one that he loved was he having sex
with different women in the group yes, we'll see a
father figure or a boyfriend figure to you at age fourteen,
I wanted to marry him. Well, you know what that's
That's not uncommon for a fourteen year old girl to
become captivated by some guy she meets. When I say older,
(04:54):
I would usually mean like fifteen, not thirty four. But
when you say you wanted to marry him, did he
say anything to make you believe that could happen? You know,
did he sleep with you? I mean as in the
sex way, not the snoring way. When you look back
on the fact that a thirty or four year old
(05:14):
man had sex with a fourteen year old girl who
was totally smitten with him, how does that make you feel?
Not good? Diane? I agree with you, and I, like
many many women, you look back in situations and things
that happened, and at the time it's too confusing, frankly
(05:40):
to be angry or to really know what's happening. But
then as you grow up and you mature and you
look back that feeling of anger and kind of a
helpless feeling because you were so naive at the time,
A real babe in the woods. It's just a real
(06:01):
feeling of resentment and anger and also resignation. Did you
ever feel like it was your fault that you had
sex with Charles Manson when you were just fourteen? Most
definitely I took responsibility for what happened to me for
(06:24):
a long time. You know, Diane, if you were here
with me right now in the studio with me, I've
just got chills on my arms and my legs because
I know how you feel, and so many women know
how you feel. At the time when you're fourteen years
(06:48):
old and you're going along with it. At the time,
you think, oh, okay, this is fine. But when you
look back and you realize what happened to you, it's
it's very upsetting. And to hear you say the words
not good, that's I'm going to always remember those two words,
(07:12):
Diane Lake, not good, because sometimes they're just are not
words the right words to explain how you feel looking
back on being a crime victim. Diane Lake is with
me the author of a Member of the Family. It's
a brand new book and it describes her experience falling
under Charles Manson's spell. How eventually, after a very long battle,
(07:40):
including being institutionalized, working through it and even now the
feelings she has about what happened to her. It's it's
an incredible, incredible book. When you say you quote fell
under his spell, I know what that means to me,
(08:01):
But what does it mean to you, Diane? Like he
fell under his spell? He, as I said, was um
very charismatic, um, playful, uh, seemingly intelligent. And the girls,
the other girls, had such a devotion for him. It
(08:22):
was easy and and being not with my family and
not feeling like I really belonged with the life that
they had chosen just made me. And and that his family,
he and his family of girls made me feel so
welcomed and part of them. That was the that was
(08:47):
the magic for me. Can I ask how did the
other as you call them girls feel about him sleeping
with all of them? There was enough love to go around,
we all um. I think at times there was like, oh,
does he love her better than me? But for the
(09:10):
most part, no, we loved We loved him, and we
loved each other. I'm just pausing to digest all that
you know, Alan deep believe it or not. There are
times that I'm not speaking, just trying to to take
in what you're saying and how this must have felt
as as a fourteen year old girl. What about your
(09:32):
real family, your biological family now or then? Well, then,
I know that they gave you a note. I guess
you would call your mom and dad hippies for lack
of a better term. Gave you a note granting you
permission to leave them. How did that happen? I was
on an acid trip, not with Charlie I didn't know him,
(09:53):
but with another family and my own family as well,
and I felt that I heard God's voice telling me
it was time to leave home. So I had a
conversation with my parents about it. And we were living
with another couple with children at that time, and they
had invited me to stay with them. So my parents
(10:16):
wrote me a little note give basically giving me my emancipation.
And I think there was a legal document that could
be it could have been created giving me emancipation as
a minor. But this was just a handwritten note. You
know that we did on the coffee table, and I
(10:37):
carried it around in my pocket for a few years
and I never used it. I never had to use it.
Did you ever miss your parents during your time away
from them? There were times that I that I did,
but I didn't feel like I belonged in the commune
that they were living in. Did they know? Did your
mom and dad know people were giving you acid? Yes,
(11:00):
my very My first asset trip was taken in my
living room before we dropped out, and had been provided
to me and my best friends by my dad. Why, Diane, like,
why would your dad give you asset as a little girl?
I don't think he saw me as a little girl.
(11:20):
And this was the beginning of the counter culture, you know,
the summer of sixty seven, and my parents were caught
up in the whole Timothy Leary, Alan Ginsburg, Jack Heroac,
the whole, the whole culture counterculture movement. They really believed
(11:40):
that this was a way, a new way to live,
trusting God, not being you know, being enlightened with drugs, hallucinogenics,
and you know, living in a communal situation. Can I
ask you how they got the idea that trusting God,
(12:02):
that God would want them to send their fourteen year
old daughter on an acid trip. How how does that translate?
And I'm not judging, I'm curious because I don't understand it. Well,
they met this commune called the Oracle. They Also the
(12:22):
Oracle got started in San Francisco, you know, it's an
underground newspaper, and then l A started one, and my
father got involved with them because he wanted to do
He was an artist and he wanted to do some
of their artwork, so he got involved with them. But
(12:42):
the whole Um Oracle commune was all about you know, love, sex,
that it was and that it was okay even you know,
for children. So they just kind of got all caught
up in that mindset. What was life like with the
(13:03):
Manson family? What would a typical day be for a
fourteen year old girl essentially living in a sex relationship
with a thirty or four year old man. Charles Manson,
I spent a lot of time, you know, um just
outside in nature enjoying and I did. I did enjoy
living at Spawn Ranch um beautiful hills and trees and
(13:28):
rocks and little streams, and I remember spending a lot
of time out in nature. You know, I didn't have
sex every day. It was not it was not that
UM concentrated or that that wasn't the total focus. We
would prepare meals. UM got food from various locations, including
(13:53):
the dumpsters of the behind grocery stores. Found some great
stuff that you know, the grocery stores were throwing out
and um. Then you know, there were a couple of
babies that came along, and taking care of the babies,
playing with them, and taking care of George, helping around
the ranch, um and cleaning, cleaning, making things nice, making
(14:19):
things um organized. I was kind of an organizer. And
then in the evening we would sit around Charlie and
either he would you know, be philosophizing or instructing, or
playing music, usually playing music and we would sing along.
What would Charles Manson bay philosophizing and instructing about about
(14:44):
life and about you know, getting rid of your inhibitions
and basically, you know, forget what your parents taught you
some of the same formats or premises that my own
you know, father had bought into, which was you know,
getting rid of materialism out of your life and and
(15:04):
just living from in the here and the now. Did
your parents have any idea that you were living with
Charles Manson? Yes, did they have any idea? He was
a convicted felon at that time. You know when you
say we didn't have sex every day, well, you know, Diane,
most fourteen year old girls don't have sex ever, because
(15:26):
it's actually statutory rape. So to hear you say that,
I just think of you as a fourteen year old
girl in that world. What do you think all the
acid trips effect had on you? Acid trips, for the
(15:46):
most part, for me, were good. I mean they were
good experiences. I had a few bad trips, but considering
how many times I did take acid, I really did
not have that many, um what I would call a
bad trip. So mostly it would just you know, open
(16:07):
your mind to um what a perfect world might be.
And I know that it doesn't sound right when I
say it, it's it's it's craziness, but um, I have
three children, and that not even preteen. But those early
those the early teen years, you think you're an adult.
(16:32):
You don't think of yourself as a child. Well, what
made you decide that you wanted to leave Charles Manson
in the family. I was there when we were at
the last arrest. What do you mean I didn't leave him? Okay,
I thought you helped put him behind bars. I did,
so you had to leave him at some point? Right?
(16:52):
Was that against your will? No? I was. I was
put in jail and after you know, a few months
of good food and no drugs, and you know, reading
and overhearing people say those four girls are never going
to make it. And before I went into the grand jury,
(17:16):
the bailiff asked me my name, and I told him
I'm Diane Lake. I'm sixteen, and I want my mommy.
So I had really come to the conclusion that I
had made a big mistake. I didn't belong here, and
I wanted out. Why did you want out? That was
when I began, you know, to tell the truth, to
(17:39):
tell the authorities what I had seen, you know, what
I had heard. I I didn't want to live in
this situation anymore. I you know, woke up to the
fact that it was wrong. What was your part? And
sending Manson to jail, I you know, testified that his
(18:00):
escalating behavior about the White album about you know, Helter Skelter,
and I testified what other people had told me that
he had asked them to do. What did he ask
you to do? He didn't ask me to do anything.
Other people told me what he asked them to do.
(18:22):
I understand what did he ask them to do? Basically,
to start Helter Skelter to go and do something witchy
in these different homes to start the helter Skelter rice war.
That's that was the I don't know if he used
those words, but that was that was Later on I
(18:45):
realized that that was the intent. So by going and
murdering people in that l A, California area and surrounding area,
how was that supposed to start a race war? I
I don't know. I mean at Bobby both Lay had
(19:07):
been arrested for um killing Gary Hindman. I mean, this
is this is looking back and you're trying to figure out,
you know, what happened and why. It's like there's some
um idea that perhaps they wanted to make it look
(19:29):
like helter Skelter had started because of what happened to
Gary Hindman, that they were going to um do more
of the same. And look, because Charlie had been talking
about a race war for a long time, and he'd
(19:50):
been hearing about a race war for a long time
during his in his various incarcerations and um being in
reform school, he'd been hearing this in court. And you
saw Charles Manson, how did he appear to you? How
(20:13):
did that make you feel? I was I was very
nervous about um testifying in front of him, because I
knew that he would be unhappy with me, and I
was concerned that I wouldn't be able to look him
(20:34):
in the eye because I would remember the good times.
But one of the very first questions he showed me
that it was all about him. What do you mean?
One of the questions that they asked me was I
in love with Charles Manson? And I said I guess so,
(20:57):
and he immediately chimed in, don't put it all on
Mr Manson. She loved everybody, and I could see that
he again, he was playing the whole courtroom, and I
(21:22):
realized that he really didn't He didn't love me, and
the spell was broken with me. Is Diane like the
author of a brand new book? Member of the Family.
Diane was the youngest member of the Charles Manson so
(21:44):
called family. After leaving the family, she actually had to
be institutionalized in order to ultimately break free of the
life with Charles Manson and the drugs and the life style.
She went on to help the state put Charles Manson
(22:07):
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keyword grace. We're ready to help with me. Is Diane Lake,
author of a brand new book. Member of the Family.
(24:58):
She is the youngest member of the Charles Manson family
that went on to commit mass murder. Karen Smith expert
in her field, major crime scene investigator and Elsa's Stateman,
author of Restless Souls, The Sharon Tate Family account of stardom,
the Manson Murders, and a Crusade for Justice. I want
(25:19):
you to take a listen to Charles Manson speaking. I'm
not a violent human being. Did you tell the women
to do their witchy things? I said, if you're going
to do something, leave something witchy, just like I would
tell you. If you're going to do something, do it
well and leave something witchy. Leave a sign to let
(25:42):
the world know that you were there. Have a good day.
Did you tell them which words? No, pig helter skelter rise.
It's not my vocabulary, that's not my generation. I keep
telling you that. In the car on the way to
the lot Bianca house, you said, this time, make sure
(26:04):
they're not scared like last night. Oh no, it may
have been something like this. Uh yeah that I remember
something like that, but I don't remember exactly the right words.
I don't remember exactly the right words. But that's that's
a simple that's a simple philosophy from China. That's a
Chinese philosophy. You know, if if you're gonna, if you're
(26:27):
gonna go to war and you're fighting your enemy and
you kill him when he's afraid, you know, it's a
bad omen it's bad. It's bad. So you try to
absorb the fear, which I think the Hindus use that
word karma to balance a karma. To Elsa Stateman, author
(26:48):
of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate Family account of startup
Manson murders, and Crusade for Justice at Lisa, we have
both been listening. I've been transfixed listening to Diane Lake
describe what life was like as the youngest female member
of the Manson family, and to hear her talk, I
(27:10):
can get a glimpse of life inside that so called
family and how everything that I think is wrong, so
many things that I think is wrong was normal. Giving
a fourteen year old child acid that forever can alter
(27:31):
your brain, forever, can alter your psyche for the rest
of your life. Having full blown sex between a thirty
four year old man and a fourteen year old girl,
no school, just wandering around, having the child, help gather
food from dumpsters and prepare food and and basically make
(27:54):
it a harem for Charles Manson to sit around in
Struma's guitar and hype hot size at night. It just
and then to hear her say, Elisa, she felt like
it was her fault, and I get it. That's really
how so many assault victims feel. Elsa's statement, author of
(28:20):
Restless Souls. I want to hear your thoughts on listening
as you were listening to Diane late along with me.
You know, Nancy, it's heartbreaking to listen to Diane because
you know, she is the story of every abused child,
in my opinion, and Manson took advantage of that. I
think that what's really amazing about Diana, and and to
(28:44):
emphasize this is that even though she was there and
under Manson's spell, she and she says this in a book,
she knew the difference between right and wrong. She knew
that she was an individual. And I think it speaks
volumes to those who were in prison and those who aren't.
You had this fourteen year old girl who was more
impressionable than anybody who was abused by him, More than
(29:07):
anybody she was hit by him, hung upside down by him,
and by all means, believed him to be Christ in
her words, and yet she didn't murder. And I think
that that speaks volumes about those who did murder Um.
(29:28):
I think that it is an amazing story that Diane
came out on top of this um and not only
came out on top of it, but was you know,
tad mount to the prosecution star witness in helping to
put them behind bars. That took an incredible amount of
courage for the sixteen year old at the time to
(29:49):
come against somebody who she knew could retire tallyate who
she loved and yet feared. And it's it's truly an
amazing yet heartbreaking story. But you know, going back to
what I was what I was saying, it just emphasizes
why those who killed for Manson should stay where they are.
(30:13):
They were no less impressionable than Diane was, and yet
they had it in them to kill. And Manson knew
who had it in them to kill and who didn't.
There's a reason Diane didn't go out on those nights
because Manson knew she didn't have it in her. She
was a decent human being, on the inside. She wasn't
(30:35):
a savage killer like Susan Atkins, Patricia Crome Winkle, Leslie
Van Houghton, Charles Watson Manson knew those people would kill
and they did. Diane, like author a member of the family,
I'd like to hear your response to Atlasa Statn's comment, Well,
she really painted painted quite the picture. And not that
(30:57):
it's not true, it's just that it's really hard to
um here that um viewpoint. Why what is what is
hard about it? And I know that's the viewpoint that
you know, I as if I had been mature, would
(31:19):
have seen, would have probably seen, but I didn't, you know,
And it's really hard to look at yourself as a victim.
And I really did not see myself as a victim
until fairly recently, Diane. Like when you hear Alissa describe
being hung upside down and hit, what happened? He threatened
(31:43):
to hang me upside down. He never actually did hang
me upside down, but he did threaten to hang me
upside down and skin me alive. And why I wasn't
paying attention. We were at we were in the desert.
You know, these crimes have been committed, and he demanded
(32:04):
our undivided attention, and I really, uh, I think I
had really lost connection with myself and with my situation. Well,
I mean, you're a fourteen year old girl being fed
LSD acid and having sex with a grown man, and
(32:26):
you're out in the middle of the desert with no family,
your parents to support you. I can understand being disconnected.
Did you think when he told you can hang you
upside down and skin you alive? Did you believe him
at that point? I certainly did. You were not asked
to go and commit murder. You heard the others talking
(32:47):
about it. Would you have gone if he had told
you to? I don't think so. I would have. I
feel that I would. I I wouldn't. I would not
have been able to do that. And like Alisa said,
I don't think I was asked because I think he
(33:07):
knew that. When you heard the others come back and
talking about the killings, what what was their attitude their
demeanor towards what they had done. I didn't hear about
it from the girls until we were in the desert,
but they were almost like bragging. That's that's how I
(33:29):
remember them telling me. It was. They were kind of
like morbidly gleeful about it in what way? What did
they say? It's just like, oh and we did you know,
when we did this, and we did that and did what.
You know. At first, I think one of the girls
told me that they they you know, they they stabbed
(33:53):
somebody and and first you know, and then it became
then it was fun. I don't know, it's just what,
you know. The their demeanor, more than what they said,
is the memory that I have, and that they were,
you know, they were like proud to have done this.
(34:16):
You know what, at that time, you were only four
years older than my little twins are, and I cannot
imagine them out in a desert with Charles Manson listening
to these people acting worse than animals, gleeful over what
they had done with me. Is Karen Smith, crime scene investigator,
(34:40):
forensics expert. Karen, thank you for being with us the
reality of the murder scenes. What happened, Karen Smith, They
were horrific um. The first murder scene took place on
Clo Drive on August date, and at that scene, essentially
(35:05):
they report five people were killed, but essentially it was
six because Sharon Tate was almost to term with her pregnancy,
and at that time Stephen Parent, Abigail Folgier, wootech for Kowski, J. C. Bring,
Sharon Tate and her unborn child were all murdered. They
were shot, stabbed. There was evidence of strangulation writing on
(35:30):
the walls and the victim's blood. There was blunt force
trauma and blood from one end of that house to
the other end, out into the front yard. On the
next night were the La Bianca murders, where Leno la
Bianca was stabbed twelve times with a bayonet, fork was
left in his neck and the word war was carved
into his chest, and his wife Rosemary, was stabbed forty
(35:53):
one times. I've worked a lot of homicides, but I
have never seen crime scene photos to this extent in
my life. I mean, the thought of plunging a fork
into a human, I just it's hard for me to
(36:14):
even take it in. Diane Lake, the author of new
book Member of the Family. When you hear the stark
reality of the martyrs, innocent people, a woman nine months pregnant,
carved up with a knife, words like pig and war
(36:35):
written in blood on the walls, and you were in
the middle of these people, how did you survive you
were a little girl, Diane. I by the grace of God,
that's all. And that's part of the reason I'm writing
this book or I wrote this book, is because it
(36:57):
is an amazing story. And I give all the glory
to God forgetting me through with my wits still attached. Um.
You know, when I hear the description, I'm just I'm
just absolutely horrified. I've got tears in my eyes. It's
(37:19):
just I just can't imagine being on either end. And
I I have so much compassion for the families because
not only was it bad to start with, but they
have to relive this every time one of these people
(37:40):
come up for parole, they have to it has to
be relived and gone over again. And from my understanding,
I've never been to parole hearing, but they are eight
to ten hours long. Melissa's Stateman, author of Restless Souls,
to Share and Tape, Families, Account and Stardom, The Manson
(38:00):
Murders and a Crusade for Justice. What do you know
of the crime scenes and what happened to Sharon Tate
and the other victims? Well, you know, Eden said it
was one of the most horrific crime scenes. I think
in the history of crime scenes, you had Sharon Tate
(38:21):
who was strung up by a rope, stabbed sixteen times.
You have Voytech Pokosky who was stabbed fifty one times,
beating over the head thirteen times and shot twice. Abigail
Folger was chased down, tackled by Britrish crime way go On,
stabbed twenty one times. J C. Bring was shot one,
stabbed seven times, and Stephen Parent was shot four times. Uh.
(38:42):
You know, the following night, as as Karen said, Rosemary
and Leno law Bianca, you know, in the supposed sanctity
of their own home, were killed in the most brutal way.
They had Leno la Bianca who was stabbed the multiple
times with a knife thrust through his throat and a
fork with the word war carved into his into his abdomen,
(39:04):
and and Rosemary brot Bianca stabbed forty one times. And
you know, I think that the horror of this is
so uh multiplied by the fact that they were in
the supposed sanctity of their own home. You know, this
was a rampage. Then I don't think it gets any
more horrific or scary than that. And the fact that
(39:28):
these people were able to. You know, you have to
and I think that you know this Nancy stabbing is
a very personal crime. You're up close, you're holding them down,
to look these people in the eye as they were
doing it, and and the overkill that was used to
look a pregnant woman in the eye and tell her,
(39:49):
as Susan Atkins did, look bitch, I don't have any
mercy for you. You're gonna die and you better be ready.
And then to stab her in the heart, you know,
three times as she's gleeting for the life of her baby.
Let me live, let me have my baby, and you
can kill me anyway you want, you know. I think
what what is lost over the years is the word
(40:09):
that these victims went through, and the screams and the
pleas to live, you know, are all but forgotten. And
when you put yourself as a family member does, as
Diane was saying in their Pearl hearings, and you have
to hear these details over and over, you know, for
the victims of these of the families who sit and
listen to it, they're not hearing the details. They're hearing
(40:31):
their loved ones screaming. They're wondering about the fear that
their loved ones went through in their last moments of life,
and that I think is the most horrible part of
these Pearl hearings. And you know, let's remember back to
when Doris Tate was doing this. These Pearl hearings were
(40:51):
every year. And now you know, through through new laws,
you can do it up to fifteen years. But let's
remember back to when this all started. They were going
to a mirror after year after year and reliving this
or that their left ones went through. Well, I've got
to tell you unless some one I can't. I can't
stand to think back, Oh, my fiance's murder. I don't
(41:15):
like to think about it. I don't like people to
bring it up to me. If I bring it up,
that's one thing I'm prepared mentally to talk about it.
But it makes me think about what he went through.
And while it was horrible, it's nothing compared to a
pregnant mother begging for the life of her child. Today
with Diane Lake, Karen Smith and Alicia's Stateman would not
(41:39):
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You're not gonna get that at the pet store link
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joy you're bringing to people in their pets, but thank
you for being our sponsor today. Diane Lake, author of
Member of the Family, How does your family, your your children,
your nuclear family feel about you writing the book and
(43:30):
what they have learned? Uh, there's mixed feelings. For the
most part, I have the support of my children and
my mother, my fiancee um and certainly my church family,
my pastor what do you mean by the most part.
(43:52):
For the most part, there's a few people in my
family that are are upset with me. Why because that
reflects badly on my mother. They should be praising God.
You're alive and and frankly, if it weren't for your
mother and father, you would not have been in that predicament.
(44:14):
And I'm not, okay, you know what I am judging.
I'm not judging you because you were a child and
it is a miracle a divine miracle. I believe that
you survived and had to live through being institutionalized. What
was that like being in an institution to get your
(44:34):
mind straight? After all you went through saved my life?
That was that? I that was a wonderful experience. It
really was, and it is what you had to do
to survive well. I was in a protected environment. I
learned how to play the fluid. I went back to school.
(44:57):
I had um all these loving uh psychologists and psychiatrists
and nurses, you know, and technicians. I'm so grateful that
was there forrateful for them too. When they say it
reflects badly on your mother, are your mother and dad?
Mom and dad still alive. My father passed away fifteen
(45:21):
years ago. What what did they have to say for
themselves about allowing you to be in that situation? They
they regret it. My my father said, we threw the
baby out with the bath water. Dave Apaulo, you know,
(45:43):
he apologized. My mother has a you know, apologized um.
But on the other hand, they were they were caught
up in the you know, this enlightenment, this counterculture movement.
Diane Lake, I hear you even now, protecting your mom
(46:07):
and dad for literally throwing you to the wolves. And
you know what that is, unconditional love. It is I
know you don't want to see that they did wrong
by you. They didn't intend to, and I just am
grateful you're here today to speak with me. Your book
(46:32):
is incredible. If I could change what happened to you,
I would, But for now I'm going to pray for
peace and healing and everything good for you. Diane Lake,
author of Member of the Family, Alyssa Stateman, author of
Restless Souls, The Sharon Tate Family account of Stardom Manson
(46:54):
murders and Crusade for Justice, Karen Smith, crime scene investigator,
and Alan Duke. I want to take this moment and
thank our partner for making our program possible today. It's
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off goodbye friends,
Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph
Channel one thirty two. Is Charlie Manson crazy whatever that means. Sure,
he's crazy as a man, as a hatter, what differences
in me? And I started fanning and I turned into
the animals? You know, I just did you tell the
women to do their witchy things? I said, if you're
(00:27):
going to do something, leave something witchy, just like I
would tell you. If you're going to do something, do
it with and leave something. You leave a sign to
let the world know that you would have a good
game right now. Charles Nelson, the leader of the Killer Cult,
is dead and his stay in the penitentiary was just
(00:48):
a pit stop to h e Double l a former
convicted felon. He brings together dozens of young people, dozens
of let me just say, misfits, people that felt they
were misfits anyway, whether they were or not. He brought
them all together as a family. They all settled in together,
(01:10):
kind of commune style, at a ranch near l A.
But then for two nights he instructs his followers to
go on a murder spree and they do horrific murders.
Some crime scenes unlike anything police had ever seen before.
(01:35):
Words written on the walls and the victims blood, dead
bodies strown through fancy homes in the l A area.
I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us right now. Joining me a very special guest,
in fact, two of them, Diane Lake, the author of
(01:57):
Member of the Family, a new book out now, the
youngest member of the Charles Manson family. She later helped
send him to jail. Also joining me, the author of
Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate Family's account of stardom, the
Manson murders, and a Crusade for Justice. A Lisa with
(02:19):
us along with Karen Smith, major crimes investigator, and Alan
the Dupe dup joining me from l A thank you
all for being with us. First to Diane Lake, author
of Member of the Family, Diane, when you hear it
laid out so coldly? Did this former convict managed to
(02:39):
bring together a band of self professed misfits as a
family who then go on a deadly murder spree? What
was it about Charles Manson that attracted you? What about
him was so compelling? He was very charismatic, um he
(03:00):
had the ability to become whoever it was that you
needed in your life. What do you mean by that?
I felt alone. I didn't feel like I fit in
with the counterculture groups that I'd been introduced to previously.
And he welcomed me, and the girls welcomed me. And
(03:24):
it was a He was a musician, primarily singing songs
that he'd written, and he was playful and and really
very loving in the beginning with me. Is the youngest
member of the Manson family. Her name is Diane Lake,
and she's the author of a brand new book, Member
(03:45):
of the Family. Now, Diane, you met Charles Manson at
just fourteen years old, and we're increasingly mystified and intrigued
and captivated with him. How old was he when you
met him at age fourteen? I believe he was thirty four. Wow, Okay,
(04:07):
he's thirty four. You're fourteen. Explain to me when you
say playful and loving, what do you mean by that?
He you know, tells all your hair, make jokes, make
funny faces. Um. He had a way of just making
you feel like you were the only one that he loved.
(04:30):
The only one that he loved was he having sex
with different women in the group yes, we'll see a
father figure or a boyfriend figure to you at age fourteen,
I wanted to marry him. Well, you know what that's
That's not uncommon for a fourteen year old girl to
become captivated by some guy she meets. When I say older,
(04:54):
I would usually mean like fifteen, not thirty four. But
when you say you wanted to marry him, did he
say anything to make you believe that could happen? You know,
did he sleep with you? I mean as in the
sex way, not the snoring way. When you look back
on the fact that a thirty or four year old
(05:14):
man had sex with a fourteen year old girl who
was totally smitten with him, how does that make you feel?
Not good? Diane? I agree with you, and I, like
many many women, you look back in situations and things
that happened, and at the time it's too confusing, frankly
(05:40):
to be angry or to really know what's happening. But
then as you grow up and you mature and you
look back that feeling of anger and kind of a
helpless feeling because you were so naive at the time,
A real babe in the woods. It's just a real
(06:01):
feeling of resentment and anger and also resignation. Did you
ever feel like it was your fault that you had
sex with Charles Manson when you were just fourteen? Most
definitely I took responsibility for what happened to me for
(06:24):
a long time. You know, Diane, if you were here
with me right now in the studio with me, I've
just got chills on my arms and my legs because
I know how you feel, and so many women know
how you feel. At the time when you're fourteen years
(06:48):
old and you're going along with it. At the time,
you think, oh, okay, this is fine. But when you
look back and you realize what happened to you, it's
it's very upsetting. And to hear you say the words
not good, that's I'm going to always remember those two words,
(07:12):
Diane Lake, not good, because sometimes they're just are not
words the right words to explain how you feel looking
back on being a crime victim. Diane Lake is with
me the author of a Member of the Family. It's
a brand new book and it describes her experience falling
under Charles Manson's spell. How eventually, after a very long battle,
(07:40):
including being institutionalized, working through it and even now the
feelings she has about what happened to her. It's it's
an incredible, incredible book. When you say you quote fell
under his spell, I know what that means to me,
(08:01):
But what does it mean to you, Diane? Like he
fell under his spell? He, as I said, was um
very charismatic, um, playful, uh, seemingly intelligent. And the girls,
the other girls, had such a devotion for him. It
(08:22):
was easy and and being not with my family and
not feeling like I really belonged with the life that
they had chosen just made me. And and that his family,
he and his family of girls made me feel so
welcomed and part of them. That was the that was
(08:47):
the magic for me. Can I ask how did the
other as you call them girls feel about him sleeping
with all of them? There was enough love to go around,
we all um. I think at times there was like, oh,
does he love her better than me? But for the
(09:10):
most part, no, we loved We loved him, and we
loved each other. I'm just pausing to digest all that
you know, Alan deep believe it or not. There are
times that I'm not speaking, just trying to to take
in what you're saying and how this must have felt
as as a fourteen year old girl. What about your
(09:32):
real family, your biological family now or then? Well, then,
I know that they gave you a note. I guess
you would call your mom and dad hippies for lack
of a better term. Gave you a note granting you
permission to leave them. How did that happen? I was
on an acid trip, not with Charlie I didn't know him,
(09:53):
but with another family and my own family as well,
and I felt that I heard God's voice telling me
it was time to leave home. So I had a
conversation with my parents about it. And we were living
with another couple with children at that time, and they
had invited me to stay with them. So my parents
(10:16):
wrote me a little note give basically giving me my emancipation.
And I think there was a legal document that could
be it could have been created giving me emancipation as
a minor. But this was just a handwritten note. You
know that we did on the coffee table, and I
(10:37):
carried it around in my pocket for a few years
and I never used it. I never had to use it.
Did you ever miss your parents during your time away
from them? There were times that I that I did,
but I didn't feel like I belonged in the commune
that they were living in. Did they know? Did your
mom and dad know people were giving you acid? Yes,
(11:00):
my very My first asset trip was taken in my
living room before we dropped out, and had been provided
to me and my best friends by my dad. Why, Diane, like,
why would your dad give you asset as a little girl?
I don't think he saw me as a little girl.
(11:20):
And this was the beginning of the counter culture, you know,
the summer of sixty seven, and my parents were caught
up in the whole Timothy Leary, Alan Ginsburg, Jack Heroac,
the whole, the whole culture counterculture movement. They really believed
(11:40):
that this was a way, a new way to live,
trusting God, not being you know, being enlightened with drugs, hallucinogenics,
and you know, living in a communal situation. Can I
ask you how they got the idea that trusting God,
(12:02):
that God would want them to send their fourteen year
old daughter on an acid trip. How how does that translate?
And I'm not judging, I'm curious because I don't understand it. Well,
they met this commune called the Oracle. They Also the
(12:22):
Oracle got started in San Francisco, you know, it's an
underground newspaper, and then l A started one, and my
father got involved with them because he wanted to do
He was an artist and he wanted to do some
of their artwork, so he got involved with them. But
(12:42):
the whole Um Oracle commune was all about you know, love, sex,
that it was and that it was okay even you know,
for children. So they just kind of got all caught
up in that mindset. What was life like with the
(13:03):
Manson family? What would a typical day be for a
fourteen year old girl essentially living in a sex relationship
with a thirty or four year old man. Charles Manson,
I spent a lot of time, you know, um just
outside in nature enjoying and I did. I did enjoy
living at Spawn Ranch um beautiful hills and trees and
(13:28):
rocks and little streams, and I remember spending a lot
of time out in nature. You know, I didn't have
sex every day. It was not it was not that
UM concentrated or that that wasn't the total focus. We
would prepare meals. UM got food from various locations, including
(13:53):
the dumpsters of the behind grocery stores. Found some great
stuff that you know, the grocery stores were throwing out
and um. Then you know, there were a couple of
babies that came along, and taking care of the babies,
playing with them, and taking care of George, helping around
the ranch, um and cleaning, cleaning, making things nice, making
(14:19):
things um organized. I was kind of an organizer. And
then in the evening we would sit around Charlie and
either he would you know, be philosophizing or instructing, or
playing music, usually playing music and we would sing along.
What would Charles Manson bay philosophizing and instructing about about
(14:44):
life and about you know, getting rid of your inhibitions
and basically, you know, forget what your parents taught you
some of the same formats or premises that my own
you know, father had bought into, which was you know,
getting rid of materialism out of your life and and
(15:04):
just living from in the here and the now. Did
your parents have any idea that you were living with
Charles Manson? Yes, did they have any idea? He was
a convicted felon at that time. You know when you
say we didn't have sex every day, well, you know, Diane,
most fourteen year old girls don't have sex ever, because
(15:26):
it's actually statutory rape. So to hear you say that,
I just think of you as a fourteen year old
girl in that world. What do you think all the
acid trips effect had on you? Acid trips, for the
(15:46):
most part, for me, were good. I mean they were
good experiences. I had a few bad trips, but considering
how many times I did take acid, I really did
not have that many, um what I would call a
bad trip. So mostly it would just you know, open
(16:07):
your mind to um what a perfect world might be.
And I know that it doesn't sound right when I
say it, it's it's it's craziness, but um, I have
three children, and that not even preteen. But those early
those the early teen years, you think you're an adult.
(16:32):
You don't think of yourself as a child. Well, what
made you decide that you wanted to leave Charles Manson
in the family. I was there when we were at
the last arrest. What do you mean I didn't leave him? Okay,
I thought you helped put him behind bars. I did,
so you had to leave him at some point? Right?
(16:52):
Was that against your will? No? I was. I was
put in jail and after you know, a few months
of good food and no drugs, and you know, reading
and overhearing people say those four girls are never going
to make it. And before I went into the grand jury,
(17:16):
the bailiff asked me my name, and I told him
I'm Diane Lake. I'm sixteen, and I want my mommy.
So I had really come to the conclusion that I
had made a big mistake. I didn't belong here, and
I wanted out. Why did you want out? That was
when I began, you know, to tell the truth, to
(17:39):
tell the authorities what I had seen, you know, what
I had heard. I I didn't want to live in
this situation anymore. I you know, woke up to the
fact that it was wrong. What was your part? And
sending Manson to jail, I you know, testified that his
(18:00):
escalating behavior about the White album about you know, Helter Skelter,
and I testified what other people had told me that
he had asked them to do. What did he ask
you to do? He didn't ask me to do anything.
Other people told me what he asked them to do.
(18:22):
I understand what did he ask them to do? Basically,
to start Helter Skelter to go and do something witchy
in these different homes to start the helter Skelter rice war.
That's that was the I don't know if he used
those words, but that was that was Later on I
(18:45):
realized that that was the intent. So by going and
murdering people in that l A, California area and surrounding area,
how was that supposed to start a race war? I
I don't know. I mean at Bobby both Lay had
(19:07):
been arrested for um killing Gary Hindman. I mean, this
is this is looking back and you're trying to figure out,
you know, what happened and why. It's like there's some
um idea that perhaps they wanted to make it look
(19:29):
like helter Skelter had started because of what happened to
Gary Hindman, that they were going to um do more
of the same. And look, because Charlie had been talking
about a race war for a long time, and he'd
(19:50):
been hearing about a race war for a long time
during his in his various incarcerations and um being in
reform school, he'd been hearing this in court. And you
saw Charles Manson, how did he appear to you? How
(20:13):
did that make you feel? I was I was very
nervous about um testifying in front of him, because I
knew that he would be unhappy with me, and I
was concerned that I wouldn't be able to look him
(20:34):
in the eye because I would remember the good times.
But one of the very first questions he showed me
that it was all about him. What do you mean?
One of the questions that they asked me was I
in love with Charles Manson? And I said I guess so,
(20:57):
and he immediately chimed in, don't put it all on
Mr Manson. She loved everybody, and I could see that
he again, he was playing the whole courtroom, and I
(21:22):
realized that he really didn't He didn't love me, and
the spell was broken with me. Is Diane like the
author of a brand new book? Member of the Family.
Diane was the youngest member of the Charles Manson so
(21:44):
called family. After leaving the family, she actually had to
be institutionalized in order to ultimately break free of the
life with Charles Manson and the drugs and the life style.
She went on to help the state put Charles Manson
(22:07):
behind bars. Today with Diane Lake, Karen Smith and Alicia's
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keyword grace. We're ready to help with me. Is Diane Lake,
author of a brand new book. Member of the Family.
(24:58):
She is the youngest member of the Charles Manson family
that went on to commit mass murder. Karen Smith expert
in her field, major crime scene investigator and Elsa's Stateman,
author of Restless Souls, The Sharon Tate Family account of stardom,
the Manson Murders, and a Crusade for Justice. I want
(25:19):
you to take a listen to Charles Manson speaking. I'm
not a violent human being. Did you tell the women
to do their witchy things? I said, if you're going
to do something, leave something witchy, just like I would
tell you. If you're going to do something, do it
well and leave something witchy. Leave a sign to let
(25:42):
the world know that you were there. Have a good day.
Did you tell them which words? No, pig helter skelter rise.
It's not my vocabulary, that's not my generation. I keep
telling you that. In the car on the way to
the lot Bianca house, you said, this time, make sure
(26:04):
they're not scared like last night. Oh no, it may
have been something like this. Uh yeah that I remember
something like that, but I don't remember exactly the right words.
I don't remember exactly the right words. But that's that's
a simple that's a simple philosophy from China. That's a
Chinese philosophy. You know, if if you're gonna, if you're
(26:27):
gonna go to war and you're fighting your enemy and
you kill him when he's afraid, you know, it's a
bad omen it's bad. It's bad. So you try to
absorb the fear, which I think the Hindus use that
word karma to balance a karma. To Elsa Stateman, author
(26:48):
of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate Family account of startup
Manson murders, and Crusade for Justice at Lisa, we have
both been listening. I've been transfixed listening to Diane Lake
describe what life was like as the youngest female member
of the Manson family, and to hear her talk, I
(27:10):
can get a glimpse of life inside that so called
family and how everything that I think is wrong, so
many things that I think is wrong was normal. Giving
a fourteen year old child acid that forever can alter
(27:31):
your brain, forever, can alter your psyche for the rest
of your life. Having full blown sex between a thirty
four year old man and a fourteen year old girl,
no school, just wandering around, having the child, help gather
food from dumpsters and prepare food and and basically make
(27:54):
it a harem for Charles Manson to sit around in
Struma's guitar and hype hot size at night. It just
and then to hear her say, Elisa, she felt like
it was her fault, and I get it. That's really
how so many assault victims feel. Elsa's statement, author of
(28:20):
Restless Souls. I want to hear your thoughts on listening
as you were listening to Diane late along with me.
You know, Nancy, it's heartbreaking to listen to Diane because
you know, she is the story of every abused child,
in my opinion, and Manson took advantage of that. I
think that what's really amazing about Diana, and and to
(28:44):
emphasize this is that even though she was there and
under Manson's spell, she and she says this in a book,
she knew the difference between right and wrong. She knew
that she was an individual. And I think it speaks
volumes to those who were in prison and those who aren't.
You had this fourteen year old girl who was more
impressionable than anybody who was abused by him, More than
(29:07):
anybody she was hit by him, hung upside down by him,
and by all means, believed him to be Christ in
her words, and yet she didn't murder. And I think
that that speaks volumes about those who did murder Um.
(29:28):
I think that it is an amazing story that Diane
came out on top of this um and not only
came out on top of it, but was you know,
tad mount to the prosecution star witness in helping to
put them behind bars. That took an incredible amount of
courage for the sixteen year old at the time to
(29:49):
come against somebody who she knew could retire tallyate who
she loved and yet feared. And it's it's truly an
amazing yet heartbreaking story. But you know, going back to
what I was what I was saying, it just emphasizes
why those who killed for Manson should stay where they are.
(30:13):
They were no less impressionable than Diane was, and yet
they had it in them to kill. And Manson knew
who had it in them to kill and who didn't.
There's a reason Diane didn't go out on those nights
because Manson knew she didn't have it in her. She
was a decent human being, on the inside. She wasn't
(30:35):
a savage killer like Susan Atkins, Patricia Crome Winkle, Leslie
Van Houghton, Charles Watson Manson knew those people would kill
and they did. Diane, like author a member of the family,
I'd like to hear your response to Atlasa Statn's comment, Well,
she really painted painted quite the picture. And not that
(30:57):
it's not true, it's just that it's really hard to
um here that um viewpoint. Why what is what is
hard about it? And I know that's the viewpoint that
you know, I as if I had been mature, would
(31:19):
have seen, would have probably seen, but I didn't, you know,
And it's really hard to look at yourself as a victim.
And I really did not see myself as a victim
until fairly recently, Diane. Like when you hear Alissa describe
being hung upside down and hit, what happened? He threatened
(31:43):
to hang me upside down. He never actually did hang
me upside down, but he did threaten to hang me
upside down and skin me alive. And why I wasn't
paying attention. We were at we were in the desert.
You know, these crimes have been committed, and he demanded
(32:04):
our undivided attention, and I really, uh, I think I
had really lost connection with myself and with my situation. Well,
I mean, you're a fourteen year old girl being fed
LSD acid and having sex with a grown man, and
(32:26):
you're out in the middle of the desert with no family,
your parents to support you. I can understand being disconnected.
Did you think when he told you can hang you
upside down and skin you alive? Did you believe him
at that point? I certainly did. You were not asked
to go and commit murder. You heard the others talking
(32:47):
about it. Would you have gone if he had told
you to? I don't think so. I would have. I
feel that I would. I I wouldn't. I would not
have been able to do that. And like Alisa said,
I don't think I was asked because I think he
(33:07):
knew that. When you heard the others come back and
talking about the killings, what what was their attitude their
demeanor towards what they had done. I didn't hear about
it from the girls until we were in the desert,
but they were almost like bragging. That's that's how I
(33:29):
remember them telling me. It was. They were kind of
like morbidly gleeful about it in what way? What did
they say? It's just like, oh and we did you know,
when we did this, and we did that and did what.
You know. At first, I think one of the girls
told me that they they you know, they they stabbed
(33:53):
somebody and and first you know, and then it became
then it was fun. I don't know, it's just what,
you know. The their demeanor, more than what they said,
is the memory that I have, and that they were,
you know, they were like proud to have done this.
(34:16):
You know what, at that time, you were only four
years older than my little twins are, and I cannot
imagine them out in a desert with Charles Manson listening
to these people acting worse than animals, gleeful over what
they had done with me. Is Karen Smith, crime scene investigator,
(34:40):
forensics expert. Karen, thank you for being with us the
reality of the murder scenes. What happened, Karen Smith, They
were horrific um. The first murder scene took place on
Clo Drive on August date, and at that scene, essentially
(35:05):
they report five people were killed, but essentially it was
six because Sharon Tate was almost to term with her pregnancy,
and at that time Stephen Parent, Abigail Folgier, wootech for Kowski, J. C. Bring,
Sharon Tate and her unborn child were all murdered. They
were shot, stabbed. There was evidence of strangulation writing on
(35:30):
the walls and the victim's blood. There was blunt force
trauma and blood from one end of that house to
the other end, out into the front yard. On the
next night were the La Bianca murders, where Leno la
Bianca was stabbed twelve times with a bayonet, fork was
left in his neck and the word war was carved
into his chest, and his wife Rosemary, was stabbed forty
(35:53):
one times. I've worked a lot of homicides, but I
have never seen crime scene photos to this extent in
my life. I mean, the thought of plunging a fork
into a human, I just it's hard for me to
(36:14):
even take it in. Diane Lake, the author of new
book Member of the Family. When you hear the stark
reality of the martyrs, innocent people, a woman nine months pregnant,
carved up with a knife, words like pig and war
(36:35):
written in blood on the walls, and you were in
the middle of these people, how did you survive you
were a little girl, Diane. I by the grace of God,
that's all. And that's part of the reason I'm writing
this book or I wrote this book, is because it
(36:57):
is an amazing story. And I give all the glory
to God forgetting me through with my wits still attached. Um.
You know, when I hear the description, I'm just I'm
just absolutely horrified. I've got tears in my eyes. It's
(37:19):
just I just can't imagine being on either end. And
I I have so much compassion for the families because
not only was it bad to start with, but they
have to relive this every time one of these people
(37:40):
come up for parole, they have to it has to
be relived and gone over again. And from my understanding,
I've never been to parole hearing, but they are eight
to ten hours long. Melissa's Stateman, author of Restless Souls,
to Share and Tape, Families, Account and Stardom, The Manson
(38:00):
Murders and a Crusade for Justice. What do you know
of the crime scenes and what happened to Sharon Tate
and the other victims? Well, you know, Eden said it
was one of the most horrific crime scenes. I think
in the history of crime scenes, you had Sharon Tate
(38:21):
who was strung up by a rope, stabbed sixteen times.
You have Voytech Pokosky who was stabbed fifty one times,
beating over the head thirteen times and shot twice. Abigail
Folger was chased down, tackled by Britrish crime way go On,
stabbed twenty one times. J C. Bring was shot one,
stabbed seven times, and Stephen Parent was shot four times. Uh.
(38:42):
You know, the following night, as as Karen said, Rosemary
and Leno law Bianca, you know, in the supposed sanctity
of their own home, were killed in the most brutal way.
They had Leno la Bianca who was stabbed the multiple
times with a knife thrust through his throat and a
fork with the word war carved into his into his abdomen,
(39:04):
and and Rosemary brot Bianca stabbed forty one times. And
you know, I think that the horror of this is
so uh multiplied by the fact that they were in
the supposed sanctity of their own home. You know, this
was a rampage. Then I don't think it gets any
more horrific or scary than that. And the fact that
(39:28):
these people were able to. You know, you have to
and I think that you know this Nancy stabbing is
a very personal crime. You're up close, you're holding them down,
to look these people in the eye as they were
doing it, and and the overkill that was used to
look a pregnant woman in the eye and tell her,
(39:49):
as Susan Atkins did, look bitch, I don't have any
mercy for you. You're gonna die and you better be ready.
And then to stab her in the heart, you know,
three times as she's gleeting for the life of her baby.
Let me live, let me have my baby, and you
can kill me anyway you want, you know. I think
what what is lost over the years is the word
(40:09):
that these victims went through, and the screams and the
pleas to live, you know, are all but forgotten. And
when you put yourself as a family member does, as
Diane was saying in their Pearl hearings, and you have
to hear these details over and over, you know, for
the victims of these of the families who sit and
listen to it, they're not hearing the details. They're hearing
(40:31):
their loved ones screaming. They're wondering about the fear that
their loved ones went through in their last moments of life,
and that I think is the most horrible part of
these Pearl hearings. And you know, let's remember back to
when Doris Tate was doing this. These Pearl hearings were
(40:51):
every year. And now you know, through through new laws,
you can do it up to fifteen years. But let's
remember back to when this all started. They were going
to a mirror after year after year and reliving this
or that their left ones went through. Well, I've got
to tell you unless some one I can't. I can't
stand to think back, Oh, my fiance's murder. I don't
(41:15):
like to think about it. I don't like people to
bring it up to me. If I bring it up,
that's one thing I'm prepared mentally to talk about it.
But it makes me think about what he went through.
And while it was horrible, it's nothing compared to a
pregnant mother begging for the life of her child. Today
with Diane Lake, Karen Smith and Alicia's Stateman would not
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You're not gonna get that at the pet store link
a k c dot com. Thank you for all the
joy you're bringing to people in their pets, but thank
you for being our sponsor today. Diane Lake, author of
Member of the Family, How does your family, your your children,
your nuclear family feel about you writing the book and
(43:30):
what they have learned? Uh, there's mixed feelings. For the
most part, I have the support of my children and
my mother, my fiancee um and certainly my church family,
my pastor what do you mean by the most part.
(43:52):
For the most part, there's a few people in my
family that are are upset with me. Why because that
reflects badly on my mother. They should be praising God.
You're alive and and frankly, if it weren't for your
mother and father, you would not have been in that predicament.
(44:14):
And I'm not, okay, you know what I am judging.
I'm not judging you because you were a child and
it is a miracle a divine miracle. I believe that
you survived and had to live through being institutionalized. What
was that like being in an institution to get your
(44:34):
mind straight? After all you went through saved my life?
That was that? I that was a wonderful experience. It
really was, and it is what you had to do
to survive well. I was in a protected environment. I
learned how to play the fluid. I went back to school.
(44:57):
I had um all these loving uh psychologists and psychiatrists
and nurses, you know, and technicians. I'm so grateful that
was there forrateful for them too. When they say it
reflects badly on your mother, are your mother and dad?
Mom and dad still alive. My father passed away fifteen
(45:21):
years ago. What what did they have to say for
themselves about allowing you to be in that situation? They
they regret it. My my father said, we threw the
baby out with the bath water. Dave Apaulo, you know,
(45:43):
he apologized. My mother has a you know, apologized um.
But on the other hand, they were they were caught
up in the you know, this enlightenment, this counterculture movement.
Diane Lake, I hear you even now, protecting your mom
(46:07):
and dad for literally throwing you to the wolves. And
you know what that is, unconditional love. It is I
know you don't want to see that they did wrong
by you. They didn't intend to, and I just am
grateful you're here today to speak with me. Your book
(46:32):
is incredible. If I could change what happened to you,
I would, But for now I'm going to pray for
peace and healing and everything good for you. Diane Lake,
author of Member of the Family, Alyssa Stateman, author of
Restless Souls, The Sharon Tate Family account of Stardom Manson
(46:54):
murders and Crusade for Justice, Karen Smith, crime scene investigator,
and Alan Duke. I want to take this moment and
thank our partner for making our program possible today. It's
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off goodbye friends,
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