More remains have been found in the search for Pfc Vanessa Guillen. Remains of a male soldier missing nearly a year were found about a week ago, and over the week, more remains were found and sent for forensic review. The search resumes today with volunteers searching nearby waterways after possible items relating to Guillen were found.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Lawyer James Shelnutt - 27-year Atlanta Metro Major Case detective, SWAT Officer, Attorney
- Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist
- Karen Smith - Los Angeles Forensics Expert, Lecturer at the University of Florida, Host of "Shattered Souls" podcast
- Dr. Kris Sperry - Former Chief Medical Examiner State of Georgia
- Natalie Kwahan - Attorney for Vanessa Guillen family
- Specialist Tim Miller, Texas Equusearch
- Levi Page - Investigative Reporter CrimeOnline
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
In the last hours of Bombshell in the search for
a gorgeous twenty year old fort Hood soldier Vanessa. Again,
we now know that in the last hours, remains have
been found another body apparently found in the area near
(00:27):
fort Hood where another young soldier has been found dead
and buried. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What does it
mean in the search for Vanessa. I'm Nancy Grace. This
(00:48):
is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
on Fox Nation and series x M one eleven. First
of all, take a listen to our friends at ABC thirteen.
Houston Colleen Police are investigating if Moore remains were found
near the site where the remains of a missing Forthood
soldier were found earlier this month. Now, these remains were
reportedly found within walking distance of where investigators found the
(01:10):
body of Private Gregory Wendell Morales on June nineteenth. Now,
he had been missing from Forthood since August. His cause
of death is under investigation, but they have said they
suspect foul play. The remains found yesterday have been sent
to the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences in Dallas. The
discovery was made as Texas equist was looking for another
(01:31):
missing Forthood soldier Private first class Faness again, Gian was
last seen April twenty second on base. However, officials have
not yet said if these cases are connected. Well, of
course there's foul play. We're not idiots. How could the
soldier Gregory with deel moralice what diav natural causes and
(01:56):
then bury himself out in the middle of nowhere a
stone's throw from Fort Hood, one of the biggest army
bases in our country. Of course it's foul play. If
it had been natural causes or an accident, nine one
one would have been called. Of course there's foul play. Now,
how am I supposed to reconcile the fact that this guy,
(02:20):
Gregory Wodell Morales is killed and buried about a mile
less than a mile from Fort Hood, and now Vanessa again,
gorgeous twenty one year old private first class also goes missing.
Well with me to figure out this major boo Shellen,
(02:40):
what does it mean to search for Vanessa's an all
star panel? First of all? James shell Nutt twenty seven
years metro major case including swat now lawyer at shell
Nutt Law Firm dot com. Renowned New York psychologist Karen
Start and joining me at Karen Stark dot com. Karen
Smith joining me out of LA Forensics X lecturer University
(03:01):
of Florida and host I've Shattered Soul's new podcast. Doctor
Chris Sperry, who I personally have put on the stand
many many times on direct examination, former chief medical Examiner
for the entire state of Georgia and Texas Equisearch founder
and leader Tim Miller, who's joining us straight off the
(03:25):
search for another missing person. He has been leading many
of the searches for Vanessa. But right now to Levi
page Crime online dot com investigative reporter at LEVI, one
more very important guest joining us today and I can't
wait to hear from her. The attorney for Vanessa Gain's family,
Natalie Kawan, is with us, Tim Miller. It's my understanding
(03:50):
that near the body of Gregory when Dell Morales, more
remains have been found. Have you heard that yet, Tim,
I have heard that. Any kind of got excited thinking
that it was the Messa, but we don't know anything yet.
The remains have been sent away, I understand. To Dallas.
(04:13):
To doctor Chris Sperry, former Chief Medical Examiner, State of Georgia,
Doctor Chris Sperry, what's the first thing the medical examiner
is going to do it? I agree with Tim Miller.
I don't want to get too excited. You know, was
there ever a time, Chris Sperry, that we didn't get
excited when we found out that potential human remains were found.
That's kind of bizarre. But that said, as it goes
(04:35):
for the search for Vanessa, what's the first thing they're
going to do with the Dallas medical examiners when they
look at these remains. Well, the very first thing the
medical examiner is going to do was to x ray
the remains. And the reason for that is to make
sure if there is a bullet or the tip of
(04:57):
a knife or something metallic that would be related to
the cause of death that can be found and identified
right off the bat, because there's often all sorts of
dirt that has caked on the on the remains, and
you know, brush and things like that that come in.
So that's the very first thing is to x ray everything.
(05:19):
You know, that just shows why you're the medical examiner
and I'm just a lowly trial lawyer, because I would
have thought the first thing you would do is decide
if it's human or animal. Well, that depends on how
much there is. If if it's just a single bone
that's relatively clean, we'll make that determination very quickly. And
(05:39):
you're absolutely right if it's Wait wait, wait, wait, Jackie,
I want a clip of this, because never, in all
the years that I have known doctor Chris Sperry, have
I heard him say the words those three beautiful words. No,
not I love you, although that's that's good too, But
you are right? Did you hear that he said? I've
never in all the years I've known you, Chris Berry,
(06:02):
and all the times I put you on the stand,
sworn you in on the Bible, I've never heard you
should say you are right? And I am so happy.
But you probably never heard me say that you're wrong either,
have you? Let me think? I find that hard to believe.
I gotta I gotta go back in time. But how
do you look at a bone? Let's just say, let's
just pretend it's it's I've got my left hand up
(06:26):
and I'm holding up my little finger. What if all
you have is that last digit behind your fingernail, How
do you know if you've got a human or a
dog or any animal. No, Okay, I understand if if
the see was talking about remains, I tend to think
about the lots of bones or a collection of things.
(06:47):
But if all that you have is say one little
small bone, well then you know, making the differentiation between
animal and human, of course, is very very important from
from the start. And for single bones or just a
few bones that are relatively clean, then uh you know, yes,
that's that's done. I've done that hundreds of time. But
(07:10):
how do you do it? How do you look at
this tiny bit of bone? Insay, that's human? Well, it's
it's based on the shape and the length, the dimensions.
Human bones specifically look like human bones. You know that
because as doctors, you really are not telling me anything
new right now? Yeah, no, doctors, we all learn, you know,
(07:33):
what the human skeleton looks like. Uh now, it can
be very difficult sometimes if it's pieces of bones or
very very small. It's like it's like the single bone
that's the end of your you know, left little finger.
At that point, we might have an anthropologist come and
look at the bone as well, you know, to see
(07:55):
to see what they think. Let me ask you this
is there's some kind of a dnahs you can run
on it to determine if it's human or animal. Well sure,
if if if we can't decide just from looking at
it and X raying it, then that's that's an next
step would be to do DNA on it to see
if it's human or not human. And that's a very
(08:16):
simple kind of DNA test that can be accomplished overnight.
You know, doctor Chris Sperry, just let us in on
the truth. I know the truth, but I want you
to tell us you're again the MDA, the medical examiner.
When we always here I were waiting for DNA tests.
The reality is DNA test do not take as long
(08:38):
as the labs would have you believe. Now, I know
this for a fact, But can you tell me the
truth of it. Well, yeah, I'll say it the second time.
You're exactly right now. DNA testing can be done, I
mean literally overnight in any forensic laboratory that regularly does
DNA testing in this country can do really full of
(09:00):
DNA screening overnight twenty four hours easily. And those are
that kind of speed is really reserved for high profile
cases or where a question is really extremely important. You know,
is this animal or human or is this human not
(09:21):
only human, but couldn't come from someone that has been
missing for some period of time. So that rapid turnaround
is reserved for cases of significant importance or where further
investigation is really dependent upon the results, because if it's
not human, well then you're not going to send a
(09:42):
hundred people out coming through the brush looking for both
climb stories with Nancy Grace Guys, I was speaking with
a medical examiner, doctor Chris Sperry. We are talking about
(10:07):
a bombshell in the search for a twenty year old
beauty private first class, Vanessa Gim. You were just hearing
doctor Chris Sperry as he was describing how you tell
whether the remains just found in connection to the Vanessa
Gim search are human or animal. He said that a
(10:30):
very quick DNA GaX Ryboni clake acid turnaround could be
done overnight only if it's an important case. Well, you
know what, what victim's family doesn't think it's an important case.
My big question we're talking about Vanessa Gim. Take a
listen now to k WTX describing her disappearance. Twenty year
(10:52):
old private first class of Vanessa Gilliam's keys ID card
and wallet were later found in the armory room where
she had been working earlier that day. If you have
any information on Smile Don't Matter, please call the police.
We're being bringing picture of her. We're being close to
most small businesses. Guys they showed good joined on bass.
(11:14):
She was last seen wearing a black T shirt. She's
five feet two inches tall, one hundred and twenty six pounds,
with black hair and brown eyes. The search for Vanessa
Gain goes on this as the specter of sex harassment
on Vanessa raises its ugly head, and apparently other women
(11:35):
there in Fort Hoo would have complained. Now the Army
is officially saying they don't have any credible evidence she
was sex harassed. Well, she told her mother all about it.
I'm sure took others into her confidence. Is that not
enough guys joining me an all star panel? But right
now I want to go to special guests. The lawyer
for Vanessa Gean's family, Natalie Kawan, Natalie wasn't for all
(11:58):
we've heard. I just heard that reporter say Gillen. I
don't think that's correct. I don't want to disrespect their
family by mispronouncing their name. How is it pronounced Gian.
Thank you, Natalie. What is Vanessa's family's reaction to the
Bobshell that more remains have been found next to the
(12:21):
other private who went missing? Nobody ever found him either.
His remains were found a stone's throw from Fort Hood
and now more remains have been located near his body.
What's their reaction. Well, I think that they are hoping
that the charter comes up alive. Yeah, that's the mother,
(12:43):
especially the other beliefs that, you know, keep searching, we're
going to find her. So she's very optimistic and hopeful
that we'll find Vanessa. So you know, that's what we're
dealing with right now. Natalie Kawan with me, the lawyer
for Vanessa Gain's family. When the Army says officially that
(13:03):
they have no credible evidence to support Vanessa's claim she
was sex harassed, she told her mother about it. It's
my understanding, and the mom said, well, I'm going to
take care of it, and that's when Vanessa said, no,
I will take care of it. But she never did
formally file a complaint, and then suddenly before she could,
(13:25):
she goes missing. What does the family think of that? Well,
you know, this is something that's not an unusual situation.
A lot of women are afraid to disclose or report
sexual harassment, especially in the military. If you go to
the social media site I Am Vanessa Kean, it's sad,
(13:47):
it's scary. Hundreds and hundreds of soldiers are coming forth
with their story, a lot of them saying that they're
shamed to talk about it, but they're doing it for Vanessa,
and it tells you about the culture. These are people
that they work with on a donasis. There are people
that they eat fleap go, rabbit hole, fox holes forever
(14:07):
with a daily basis, so there are free to report
on their own brother or sister in arms about the
wrongful invested day, our experience in Europe, being or being
victims of And in this situation, she had two incidences
where she reported to her not just her mother and
her sisters, but also to her friends and her colleagues
(14:30):
at work, her soldier fellow soldiers, but she didn't want
to do a formal report, which is completely understandable. Nobody
wants to be retaliated or blackballed. This is some she
wanted to join the army and serve the country. She
didn't want to follow report of sexual harassment and then
get black balled. And I honestly, after I read all
these social media, you know, these instagrams and these people
(14:53):
talking about I am Vanessa, I am reading it, I'm thinking,
no wonder she didn't want to come forth. Most people
don't want to come for because they feel like they're
gonna get retality against. Here they're reading things of the insubordination,
being discharge, being put in a different units, are being toilets.
I mean, I read these things and I'm thinking, jeeves
that can imagine that she was going through. I mean, sure,
(15:14):
you have a beautiful nine year old girl. Her sergeant
walks in on her while she's taken a shower. How
creepy he sits there and watches her. She doesn't feel comfortable.
She asked him to leave. So you know, you have
the situation where have a young girl who doesn't know
what to do. She's in the military, her parents were immigrants.
(15:35):
It really it breaks my heart the ship's experiences, and
then another time she experiences another sexual harassment from another
sergeant of hers. She doesn't know what to do, she
doesn't want to get any trouble by seeing anything. And
here when the Army says to us, Oh, we didn't,
we didn't. We didn't look into this because sexual harassment
(15:55):
is not criminal. That was like where I was. They
blew my mind when they say they did not look
into it, because so they didn't say that was not verifiable, incredible.
They said that there was no reporting of it and
therefore they never looked into it. So when we said, well,
wouldn't you want to look to the sexual harassment because
that could lead due to some criminal behavior. I mean,
(16:18):
you know behind every cargreature's five, they're going to fight
other information and other Hyson criminals a criminal nature because
you don't know, right, just because she said to her
mom that she guys actually arrived doesn't mean she told
the whole story. She could have been specially assaults it.
Kids don't want to tell them parents that they were assaulted.
You know. Natalie Kawan is with me, the lawyer for
(16:39):
Vanessa's family. Natalie, I bet you'd be really surprised at
all the people who may have a lot of degrees
and a lot of experience that stayed quiet when they
were sex harassed, some of them because they were at
(17:02):
a mission. Like Vanessa, she wanted to serve her country.
Lawyers have cases that they're committed to that they want
to win in court, and saying that, let's just pretend
a judge or another lawyer or an investigation investigator sucks
harrass them repeatedly. If that were to come out and
(17:22):
a big complaint file, the case would be blown up.
And what about the clients or the victims in that case,
what happens to them mistrial? I mean, there are so
many things that women balance when they make the decision
not to come forward. But Natalie Kawan, I'm so glad
you're telling me that of two incidents she actually reported
(17:47):
to her colleagues, not just her mom and her friends,
but to colleagues at work. Guys, I want you to
take a listen to our friends at Fox seven. This
is Austin reporter Shannon Ryan talking about exactly what Nale
Kawan was just saying. The website I Am Vanessa, Gee
(18:09):
and listen. Yean disappeared after telling family and friends she
was being sexually harassed on post. Right now, it's unclear
if her disappearance is connected to the reported sexual harassment,
but her story has encouraged women throughout the country to
come forward. And share their own experiences with sexual misconduct
in the military. I want people to know that you know,
(18:31):
women and women in the military. We don't need to
be protected, we need to be respected. Nineteen years ago, YARIMR.
Lewis was a nineteen year old Private first class at
Fort Hood. I want to conserve my country. Today, she's
one of hundreds of women sharing their stories under the
hashtag I Am Vanessa Gean. The twenty year old private
(18:53):
first class disappeared from post on April twenty second. She
told family and friends she was being actually harassed, which
is unaccessable because she wasn't supposed to be safe while
working and protecting the country. We live in crime Stories
(19:20):
with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about bombshell evidence
that us just come forward in the last hours in
the search for Vanessa again. Straight out to Levi Page,
crime online dot com investigative reporter now joining us Levi Page,
tell me about the discovery of Gregory when Dell Morales remains.
(19:41):
Let's start there and then we'll move to the newly
discovered remains. So Gregory when Dell Morales was twenty three
years old, he went missing August twenty nineteen, a few
days before he was going to leave the army and
his remains were found last week. It's and positively confirmed
that they were him. And this was found during the
(20:05):
search of Vanessa again and FOURTHOOD is playing everything very
close to the vest, Nancy. They're not releasing a lot
of information about it. What do we know about Vanessa again?
Take eight? Listen to what her sister has to say
to the six News your porter Jasmine Colwell. Investigators say
the twenty year old soldier was last seen April twenty
(20:29):
second at one pm. She was a family where our
weld ten girl. She was signing that would come home
that world her parties to every right benings like off
Dame down. You know it would be easy for her
to choose the other route and no, she would come
home every weekend to us. Myra says. Her sister means
the world to her and she'd do anything to find her.
(20:51):
I love her and I'm not gonna stop. I'm not
gonna stop until I hup her whistles because I meant
the Army. C ID is encouraging anyone with information to
come forward, even if you choose to remain anonymous. Please
(21:12):
go to Crime online dot com see Vanessa again, read
her story. I think about my little girl, Lucy. I
have twins, John David Lucy. They're only twelve, but they're
about to turn thirteen. Vanessa just seven years older than
my girl, and I want her prepared to go out
(21:33):
in the world and be a huge hit and whatever
she chooses to do. And to think that she would
be sex harassed at work and afraid to come forward
or lose her job, because don't you know that is
exactly what Vanessa thought. If I come forward, I'll never
make it anywhere in the army, I'll be black bald,
(21:58):
I'll get a discharge. Then what am I gonna do it?
It's just making me ill to even think about it.
To Karen start joining me New York psychologist. You can
find her at Karen Stark dot com. You know, it
doesn't give women very much of a choice. And I
don't want to go down a rabbit hole hole on
(22:20):
sex harassment. I want to help find Vanessa, but I
can't help but believe that these two are intertwined. The
sex harassment she was endearing, and I believe her and
her disappearance. Karen Stark, I mean when you think of
your daughter going out there and putting up with a
(22:41):
crap that she had to put up with and then
go missing. I mean, if she was right, Karen Stark,
if she had said anything, I bet she would have
been black Balt. Well, especially Nancy, you're talking about the
armed services. You're talking about the army, and as it
was said earlier, that's a place where you are not
(23:02):
supposed to I mean, they don't say you can, but
I'd be surprised if they're actually doing any kind of
investigation to look into this. She knew to be afraid
because it's not acceptable. You're supposed to be strong, you're
supposed to deal with it. You're not supposed to ever
(23:23):
report on somebody else, especially sexual harassment. And again, our
program today is about searching for Vanessa. But I truly believe,
I mean, James Shellnutt twenty seven years much a major case. Now, lawyer,
Come on, James, can you believe that two are not connected?
(23:43):
Because think about it. At Fort Hood, every person that
comes in, not leaving, but comes in, goes through a
security guard checkpoint and if you're a visitor, you have
to show your ID and they make a list of
who's coming in. I mean they've do that TV studios
for Pete's sake. When you leave not so much, but
(24:04):
they knew every visitor coming in. And if you work there,
I guess you just show your badge. But long story short,
this was at lunchtime. She left all her stuff in
the armoring where she worked on a munition's repair, and
she took with her just her cell phone. She left
behind her ID, her room card to get in and
(24:29):
out of her room, her keys, her wallet, all of
her stuff. She just walked out with just her cell phone,
just as if you and I would walk to a
different room, we might carry our cell phone with us
in case it rang. She never came back. I find
it very difficult believe that some intrude or some outsider
took her so ergo. Therefore, if an insider a furthood
(24:54):
is involved, how likely is it it's not connected to
these on the job set harassment claims. Yeah, I agree
that that is something that needs to be put up
on her magnifying glass. You know, the bottom line is,
you know as well as I do, when a person
leaves their keys, persh wallet, personal belongings like that they
(25:15):
are planning on coming back for those things. That's not
something you permanent leave or abandoned somewhere. It means that
she was planning on coming back. So when you look
at these two cases, one of the first things that
you know, looking at from a to take this point
of view, that you want to do is you want
to try to connect the dots between these two cases.
Did these two know each other? I mean, that's one
(25:35):
of the first questions that you want to ask. And
then number two after that, you know, do these people
know the same people? Is there any connection in between
the people they know? We're the group that they run in.
And I think that the investigators looking at this case
are fumbling the ball if they don't go back and
look at the other case file of the young man
that came up missing and remains letter discovered. You know,
(25:59):
think about guys. Karen Smith joining me forensics expert lecturer,
University of Florida. Now she has her own podcast called
Shattered Sold. Karen Smith and I first met. I think
Karen when we were doing a reenactment of a murder
and all the possibilities that would help us prove what happened.
(26:21):
Did it happen this way? Did it happen that way.
Remember that and all that fake blood. Karen Smith. Yes,
let's talk about what we know. We know that she
left her ID card, which you need. You know, when
you're at work, you need your ID if you carry
an ID, her wallet, and in my mind even more important,
(26:42):
her car keys. So when I think I've lost my keys,
which is often, I need to put one of those
little tile things on there, but I immediately try to
find them. I like, I can't find my car keys.
Why would she left her car keys? And that tells
anybody you don't have to be forensic expert like yourself
to know she meant to come back because she left
(27:04):
her car keys at her workspace space and her workstation.
That's correct. I'm a military veteran. I'll tell you this.
When you go on base, you go through a checkpoint
and they randomly check id's on the way. In a
lot of times, there'll be a sticker on your car
and you get waved in or you get saluted if
you're an officer. Then you go to your workstation. I
worked in an airplane hangar. That's where I parked. That's
(27:24):
where I went. They come in and they check to
make sure you are where you're supposed to be when
you're supposed to be there. And one of the things
that really disturbs me when I read this, Nancy, was
the fact that they do must numerous times a day.
If Vanessa went or excuse me, if she went missing
at eleven thirty to twelve thirty in the afternoon and
she missed Mustard, they've already said that that was a mistake,
(27:48):
that they counted her present when she wasn't. That is
not That's not what happens in the military. If you're
not there, they find out where you are. Because when
you sign up and you signed paper and you swear
an oath to the Constitution, they own you. You are
there for the duration. And that's which they should have
(28:08):
started this entire thing the minute she did not show
up to muster. Let me ask you something you just said.
Did they do muster For those of the don't know
what that means? Could you explain it very quickly? Sure,
it's a check in. It's basically, are you doing your job?
Are you where you're supposed to be When you're in
the military, attention to detail and doing your job is
what you have signed up for. And I was an
(28:30):
aviation structural mechanic. If I wasn't in the hangar and
I wasn't there at say, three o'clock in the afternoon,
they would want to know where I'm at. Am I
down at aimd am, I down at the dock getting
plane parts off of an aircraft. They know where I'm
at because A I have signed out, I've checked in
with my superior officers. They know where I'm at every
(28:50):
minute of every single ding Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,
we were talking about the disappearance of a beautiful young
(29:10):
twenty year old private first class at Fort Hood. Her
name Vanessa Gim. At first, we kept doing the story
because I felt no one was focusing on Vanessa's disappearance.
She was getting lost in the sauce and everything else
is happening in our country right now. But in the
last hours a bobshell in the case. More remains have
(29:35):
been found in the search for Vanessa. Straight back out
to crime online dot COM's Levi page, LEVI take a lesson.
Listen to what we know about Vanessa herself. This is ABC,
Good Morning America, Stephanie Ramos. Listen. Before Vanessa went missing,
her family says she told them she was being sexually
(29:57):
harassed by one of her sergeants and didn't tell her
superiors for fear of retribution. The Army now saying they
will investigate those allegations, adding that the search for the
private first class continues on the ground and in the air.
But that response not good enough for the hundreds that
gathered outside the army post Friday. How can we not
(30:19):
find one of our own? How can they not find
one of their own? Concerns over the missing soldier gaining
traction on social media, actress Salmahayek joining the effort, posting
a message on Instagram saying, bring back Vanessa. We won't
stop until you come back. Joining me in Austar Pale,
including the lawyer for Vanessa Geean's family. Straight back to you,
(30:42):
Levipage Crime online dot com investigative reporter again, tell me
about the remains found near those of another young private
there at Fort Hood that disappeared. Hood claim they didn't
know anything about it. Well, he turns up dead and buried,
you know, and the shadows of Fort Hood far from
the Army base. His name Gregory, When del Morales do
(31:05):
we know a cod on Morales yet, Levi Page and
where in relation to Morales's Moraine remains were these new
remains discovered? Nancy. We do not know how Morales died.
We don't know the cause of death yet. But what
we do know is that over the weekend, thirty volunteers
(31:25):
from Texas Equasearch, a very respected search group, found remains.
They came across these remains in an undisclosed area near Footthood.
Near the remains were twenty three year old soldier Gregory
Morales was found June nineteenth. He went missing in August
(31:46):
of twenty nineteen. We don't know whose remains they were.
They're keeping everything very close to the vest. Joining me
right now a special guest, the leader of Texas equa Search.
You found those remains, Tim Miller. Tim Miller, before I
get into how you got involved in Vanessa Game's disappearance,
(32:07):
tell me about how your team found the second set
of remains. Well, the remains were found her than walking
this sense of Gregory, But we are not the ones
that actually found him. It was actually somebody else called
a tip in and that's how they was found. While
why we were searching got it. Yeah, but we're not
(32:27):
the Nancy has food for thoughts here, just something for
y'all to think about. When I was talking to Maylor
and I said they were what would Vanessa be wearing?
And Mayor said, well, she's working, she's going to be
wearing her army clothes. So, you know what, we always
(32:47):
want to think about the last person that's seen her.
We really got big question marks right now. Why if
she was working, she was wearing the clothes that the
last person said that she was wearing. And we don't
believe that is credible information. People in the military, when
they're working their work, there were in their armory clothes.
(33:07):
She said she would have those other clothes underneath her
army clothes, so when she decided to go jogging, then
she would take her army clothes up. The other question
is did she leave on her own from that armory
to go to lunch. Well, I'm telling you we don't
think that is the case. Was she last seen by
(33:30):
somebody else? We don't think that was the case. Neither
our thoughts are now. She never lost left that armory
on her own. Straight back out to Natalie Kawadi, lawyer
for Vanessa Game's family. Natalie, let's clear up those very
very insightful questions by Tim Miller. At the very beginning, Natalie,
(33:54):
I asked what was she wearing? I was told black leggings,
athletic laggings that she might go jogging in. And I asked,
why did she have on her uniform? And I was
told that it was okay for her not to wear
her uniform that day. Do you know the answer to that? Yeah,
she was actually off that day. Someone called her into work.
(34:16):
That's the most troubling part. They won't provide us to
the name of the person who called her into work.
She was supposed to go hiking that afternoon with her
friend on the base. They were going to go out
for a hike, so she definitely had a day planned
ahead of her. She was only to come in for
a couple hours to do something on her day off,
and that's when she disappeared. Okay. A couple of questions.
(34:40):
Was the friend she was to go hiking with? Male
or female? A male? Has he been questioned? Yeah, I
spoke to him too. Has he been questioned by police
or fourthood authorities? I understand he has been questioned several
times by agents. I see a d agent. Okay, and
who called her in on her day off. They won't
(35:00):
provide that for us. Actually, they didn't even provide that
information to me about him being questioned. I had to
ask him about that. I'm very curious. I mean, think
about it, Karen Smith. It's her day off and she
gets called in, and coincidentally, on the day she gets
called in, she gets missing. Yeah, that doesn't ring as
(35:21):
coincidental to me at all. Nancy. When you're called into work,
there's a specific reason for that plane needs to be
turned around for deployment, a windshield crack, something happened that
needs to be repaired. They don't have the manpower they
need you to come in and help. If she was
called in to help with something, then they know exactly
who called her in and the reason why. If there
(35:42):
was something different than they need to either investigate the
person who called her in. That's one of the first
place they need to start, because that person may have
been the last person to see her. You know. Another
question regarding the discovery of these remains, I'm trying to
do Terman, if any other items were found, clothing, personal items,
(36:06):
anything like that. Tim Miller, Texas SEC Research do we know? Yeah,
his clothes were found, his idea was found, and of
course it uh, you know, it's been investigator on who
did this, but it was foul play back to doctor
Chris Sperry, former Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Georgia.
(36:28):
Doctor Sperry, at this point, do you believe that tracker
dogs should be able to track Vanessa's route off forth Hood?
If she ever even left forth Hood? It's been as
long as it's been. I've given about a fifty fifty
(36:49):
chance they might be able to track her, but it's
it's very difficult. And also if she walked there, I mean,
if she traveled under her own ability, it would be
much easier to track unless except if she was carried,
if she was brought there by someone else, then her
(37:14):
you know, leaving sent trails for dogs would be very
very slim. To Tim Miller, I understand that tech Texas
EQ Research said it found items on Saturday that could
be linked to Vanessa. Is this true? We're anxiously waiting
for lab reports to come back. Can you tell us
(37:38):
what the items were? H Well, you know, there is
a there's actually a witness has seems something um and
we campus close that. I think that we actually found
something that a witness seems so everybody's excited. To Texas
Rangers and military, they gave more. There's a lot of
(38:01):
people out there, so we're anxiously waiting for lab reports
to come back on on the item that you found.
You found it. We found that by that river, that
Leon River, which is twenty six miles away. Our fear
is that that she was thrown in that river. We
(38:21):
are going back tomorrow and we got miles and miles
of river to do. We know that you know, if
she was thrown in that river that you know of
course by now our body would be decomposed. Were it's
it's impossible to get a boat down there. We're actually
going to have ten kayaks. We feel as though hopefully
(38:45):
maybe it rained three days afterwards, maybe if her little
body was in there, then when the water went bound,
she could be on a shoreline, or maybe we could
find some of her clothes possibly caught up. And because
there's many trees and branches and debris in their sol
where does Leon empty h and it empties into it
(39:07):
actually goes to a damn for lake belt and and
of course at the dam area's very deep. We we
actually had our big boat in our sonar, and we
sown heard all of that lake belt. So you don't
think she made it too. If she was thrown in
that river, you don't think she made it to the lake.
We're only hoping that we can find some more evidence
(39:29):
that we can find her clothes, or with little God's luck,
maybe we can find part of her or all of hers.
So we're yeah, we're heading back out today and we
got a lot of work ahead of us. To Miller,
I know you've been working around the clock. To you
and everyone joining us right now, I want to thank
(39:50):
you because everything we do could help in some small,
some tiny way in finding Vanessa. Tipline two one two
nine four one eighty three hundred repeat two one four
nine four one eighty three hundred two one four nine
(40:11):
four one eighty three hundred Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off,
goodbye friend,
In the last hours of Bombshell in the search for
a gorgeous twenty year old fort Hood soldier Vanessa. Again,
we now know that in the last hours, remains have
been found another body apparently found in the area near
(00:27):
fort Hood where another young soldier has been found dead
and buried. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What does it
mean in the search for Vanessa. I'm Nancy Grace. This
(00:48):
is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
on Fox Nation and series x M one eleven. First
of all, take a listen to our friends at ABC thirteen.
Houston Colleen Police are investigating if Moore remains were found
near the site where the remains of a missing Forthood
soldier were found earlier this month. Now, these remains were
reportedly found within walking distance of where investigators found the
(01:10):
body of Private Gregory Wendell Morales on June nineteenth. Now,
he had been missing from Forthood since August. His cause
of death is under investigation, but they have said they
suspect foul play. The remains found yesterday have been sent
to the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences in Dallas. The
discovery was made as Texas equist was looking for another
(01:31):
missing Forthood soldier Private first class Faness again, Gian was
last seen April twenty second on base. However, officials have
not yet said if these cases are connected. Well, of
course there's foul play. We're not idiots. How could the
soldier Gregory with deel moralice what diav natural causes and
(01:56):
then bury himself out in the middle of nowhere a
stone's throw from Fort Hood, one of the biggest army
bases in our country. Of course it's foul play. If
it had been natural causes or an accident, nine one
one would have been called. Of course there's foul play. Now,
how am I supposed to reconcile the fact that this guy,
(02:20):
Gregory Wodell Morales is killed and buried about a mile
less than a mile from Fort Hood, and now Vanessa again,
gorgeous twenty one year old private first class also goes missing.
Well with me to figure out this major boo Shellen,
(02:40):
what does it mean to search for Vanessa's an all
star panel? First of all? James shell Nutt twenty seven
years metro major case including swat now lawyer at shell
Nutt Law Firm dot com. Renowned New York psychologist Karen
Start and joining me at Karen Stark dot com. Karen
Smith joining me out of LA Forensics X lecturer University
(03:01):
of Florida and host I've Shattered Soul's new podcast. Doctor
Chris Sperry, who I personally have put on the stand
many many times on direct examination, former chief medical Examiner
for the entire state of Georgia and Texas Equisearch founder
and leader Tim Miller, who's joining us straight off the
(03:25):
search for another missing person. He has been leading many
of the searches for Vanessa. But right now to Levi
page Crime online dot com investigative reporter at LEVI, one
more very important guest joining us today and I can't
wait to hear from her. The attorney for Vanessa Gain's family,
Natalie Kawan, is with us, Tim Miller. It's my understanding
(03:50):
that near the body of Gregory when Dell Morales, more
remains have been found. Have you heard that yet, Tim,
I have heard that. Any kind of got excited thinking
that it was the Messa, but we don't know anything yet.
The remains have been sent away, I understand. To Dallas.
(04:13):
To doctor Chris Sperry, former Chief Medical Examiner, State of Georgia,
Doctor Chris Sperry, what's the first thing the medical examiner
is going to do it? I agree with Tim Miller.
I don't want to get too excited. You know, was
there ever a time, Chris Sperry, that we didn't get
excited when we found out that potential human remains were found.
That's kind of bizarre. But that said, as it goes
(04:35):
for the search for Vanessa, what's the first thing they're
going to do with the Dallas medical examiners when they
look at these remains. Well, the very first thing the
medical examiner is going to do was to x ray
the remains. And the reason for that is to make
sure if there is a bullet or the tip of
(04:57):
a knife or something metallic that would be related to
the cause of death that can be found and identified
right off the bat, because there's often all sorts of
dirt that has caked on the on the remains, and
you know, brush and things like that that come in.
So that's the very first thing is to x ray everything.
(05:19):
You know, that just shows why you're the medical examiner
and I'm just a lowly trial lawyer, because I would
have thought the first thing you would do is decide
if it's human or animal. Well, that depends on how
much there is. If if it's just a single bone
that's relatively clean, we'll make that determination very quickly. And
(05:39):
you're absolutely right if it's Wait wait, wait, wait, Jackie,
I want a clip of this, because never, in all
the years that I have known doctor Chris Sperry, have
I heard him say the words those three beautiful words. No,
not I love you, although that's that's good too, But
you are right? Did you hear that he said? I've
never in all the years I've known you, Chris Berry,
(06:02):
and all the times I put you on the stand,
sworn you in on the Bible, I've never heard you
should say you are right? And I am so happy.
But you probably never heard me say that you're wrong either,
have you? Let me think? I find that hard to believe.
I gotta I gotta go back in time. But how
do you look at a bone? Let's just say, let's
just pretend it's it's I've got my left hand up
(06:26):
and I'm holding up my little finger. What if all
you have is that last digit behind your fingernail, How
do you know if you've got a human or a
dog or any animal. No, Okay, I understand if if
the see was talking about remains, I tend to think
about the lots of bones or a collection of things.
(06:47):
But if all that you have is say one little
small bone, well then you know, making the differentiation between
animal and human, of course, is very very important from
from the start. And for single bones or just a
few bones that are relatively clean, then uh you know, yes,
that's that's done. I've done that hundreds of time. But
(07:10):
how do you do it? How do you look at
this tiny bit of bone? Insay, that's human? Well, it's
it's based on the shape and the length, the dimensions.
Human bones specifically look like human bones. You know that
because as doctors, you really are not telling me anything
new right now? Yeah, no, doctors, we all learn, you know,
(07:33):
what the human skeleton looks like. Uh now, it can
be very difficult sometimes if it's pieces of bones or
very very small. It's like it's like the single bone
that's the end of your you know, left little finger.
At that point, we might have an anthropologist come and
look at the bone as well, you know, to see
(07:55):
to see what they think. Let me ask you this
is there's some kind of a dnahs you can run
on it to determine if it's human or animal. Well sure,
if if if we can't decide just from looking at
it and X raying it, then that's that's an next
step would be to do DNA on it to see
if it's human or not human. And that's a very
(08:16):
simple kind of DNA test that can be accomplished overnight.
You know, doctor Chris Sperry, just let us in on
the truth. I know the truth, but I want you
to tell us you're again the MDA, the medical examiner.
When we always here I were waiting for DNA tests.
The reality is DNA test do not take as long
(08:38):
as the labs would have you believe. Now, I know
this for a fact, But can you tell me the
truth of it. Well, yeah, I'll say it the second time.
You're exactly right now. DNA testing can be done, I
mean literally overnight in any forensic laboratory that regularly does
DNA testing in this country can do really full of
(09:00):
DNA screening overnight twenty four hours easily. And those are
that kind of speed is really reserved for high profile
cases or where a question is really extremely important. You know,
is this animal or human or is this human not
(09:21):
only human, but couldn't come from someone that has been
missing for some period of time. So that rapid turnaround
is reserved for cases of significant importance or where further
investigation is really dependent upon the results, because if it's
not human, well then you're not going to send a
(09:42):
hundred people out coming through the brush looking for both
climb stories with Nancy Grace Guys, I was speaking with
a medical examiner, doctor Chris Sperry. We are talking about
(10:07):
a bombshell in the search for a twenty year old
beauty private first class, Vanessa Gim. You were just hearing
doctor Chris Sperry as he was describing how you tell
whether the remains just found in connection to the Vanessa
Gim search are human or animal. He said that a
(10:30):
very quick DNA GaX Ryboni clake acid turnaround could be
done overnight only if it's an important case. Well, you
know what, what victim's family doesn't think it's an important case.
My big question we're talking about Vanessa Gim. Take a
listen now to k WTX describing her disappearance. Twenty year
(10:52):
old private first class of Vanessa Gilliam's keys ID card
and wallet were later found in the armory room where
she had been working earlier that day. If you have
any information on Smile Don't Matter, please call the police.
We're being bringing picture of her. We're being close to
most small businesses. Guys they showed good joined on bass.
(11:14):
She was last seen wearing a black T shirt. She's
five feet two inches tall, one hundred and twenty six pounds,
with black hair and brown eyes. The search for Vanessa
Gain goes on this as the specter of sex harassment
on Vanessa raises its ugly head, and apparently other women
(11:35):
there in Fort Hoo would have complained. Now the Army
is officially saying they don't have any credible evidence she
was sex harassed. Well, she told her mother all about it.
I'm sure took others into her confidence. Is that not
enough guys joining me an all star panel? But right
now I want to go to special guests. The lawyer
for Vanessa Gean's family, Natalie Kawan, Natalie wasn't for all
(11:58):
we've heard. I just heard that reporter say Gillen. I
don't think that's correct. I don't want to disrespect their
family by mispronouncing their name. How is it pronounced Gian.
Thank you, Natalie. What is Vanessa's family's reaction to the
Bobshell that more remains have been found next to the
(12:21):
other private who went missing? Nobody ever found him either.
His remains were found a stone's throw from Fort Hood
and now more remains have been located near his body.
What's their reaction. Well, I think that they are hoping
that the charter comes up alive. Yeah, that's the mother,
(12:43):
especially the other beliefs that, you know, keep searching, we're
going to find her. So she's very optimistic and hopeful
that we'll find Vanessa. So you know, that's what we're
dealing with right now. Natalie Kawan with me, the lawyer
for Vanessa Gain's family. When the Army says officially that
(13:03):
they have no credible evidence to support Vanessa's claim she
was sex harassed, she told her mother about it. It's
my understanding, and the mom said, well, I'm going to
take care of it, and that's when Vanessa said, no,
I will take care of it. But she never did
formally file a complaint, and then suddenly before she could,
(13:25):
she goes missing. What does the family think of that? Well,
you know, this is something that's not an unusual situation.
A lot of women are afraid to disclose or report
sexual harassment, especially in the military. If you go to
the social media site I Am Vanessa Kean, it's sad,
(13:47):
it's scary. Hundreds and hundreds of soldiers are coming forth
with their story, a lot of them saying that they're
shamed to talk about it, but they're doing it for Vanessa,
and it tells you about the culture. These are people
that they work with on a donasis. There are people
that they eat fleap go, rabbit hole, fox holes forever
(14:07):
with a daily basis, so there are free to report
on their own brother or sister in arms about the
wrongful invested day, our experience in Europe, being or being
victims of And in this situation, she had two incidences
where she reported to her not just her mother and
her sisters, but also to her friends and her colleagues
(14:30):
at work, her soldier fellow soldiers, but she didn't want
to do a formal report, which is completely understandable. Nobody
wants to be retaliated or blackballed. This is some she
wanted to join the army and serve the country. She
didn't want to follow report of sexual harassment and then
get black balled. And I honestly, after I read all
these social media, you know, these instagrams and these people
(14:53):
talking about I am Vanessa, I am reading it, I'm thinking,
no wonder she didn't want to come forth. Most people
don't want to come for because they feel like they're
gonna get retality against. Here they're reading things of the insubordination,
being discharge, being put in a different units, are being toilets.
I mean, I read these things and I'm thinking, jeeves
that can imagine that she was going through. I mean, sure,
(15:14):
you have a beautiful nine year old girl. Her sergeant
walks in on her while she's taken a shower. How
creepy he sits there and watches her. She doesn't feel comfortable.
She asked him to leave. So you know, you have
the situation where have a young girl who doesn't know
what to do. She's in the military, her parents were immigrants.
(15:35):
It really it breaks my heart the ship's experiences, and
then another time she experiences another sexual harassment from another
sergeant of hers. She doesn't know what to do, she
doesn't want to get any trouble by seeing anything. And
here when the Army says to us, Oh, we didn't,
we didn't. We didn't look into this because sexual harassment
(15:55):
is not criminal. That was like where I was. They
blew my mind when they say they did not look
into it, because so they didn't say that was not verifiable, incredible.
They said that there was no reporting of it and
therefore they never looked into it. So when we said, well,
wouldn't you want to look to the sexual harassment because
that could lead due to some criminal behavior. I mean,
(16:18):
you know behind every cargreature's five, they're going to fight
other information and other Hyson criminals a criminal nature because
you don't know, right, just because she said to her
mom that she guys actually arrived doesn't mean she told
the whole story. She could have been specially assaults it.
Kids don't want to tell them parents that they were assaulted.
You know. Natalie Kawan is with me, the lawyer for
(16:39):
Vanessa's family. Natalie, I bet you'd be really surprised at
all the people who may have a lot of degrees
and a lot of experience that stayed quiet when they
were sex harassed, some of them because they were at
(17:02):
a mission. Like Vanessa, she wanted to serve her country.
Lawyers have cases that they're committed to that they want
to win in court, and saying that, let's just pretend
a judge or another lawyer or an investigation investigator sucks
harrass them repeatedly. If that were to come out and
(17:22):
a big complaint file, the case would be blown up.
And what about the clients or the victims in that case,
what happens to them mistrial? I mean, there are so
many things that women balance when they make the decision
not to come forward. But Natalie Kawan, I'm so glad
you're telling me that of two incidents she actually reported
(17:47):
to her colleagues, not just her mom and her friends,
but to colleagues at work. Guys, I want you to
take a listen to our friends at Fox seven. This
is Austin reporter Shannon Ryan talking about exactly what Nale
Kawan was just saying. The website I Am Vanessa, Gee
(18:09):
and listen. Yean disappeared after telling family and friends she
was being sexually harassed on post. Right now, it's unclear
if her disappearance is connected to the reported sexual harassment,
but her story has encouraged women throughout the country to
come forward. And share their own experiences with sexual misconduct
in the military. I want people to know that you know,
(18:31):
women and women in the military. We don't need to
be protected, we need to be respected. Nineteen years ago, YARIMR.
Lewis was a nineteen year old Private first class at
Fort Hood. I want to conserve my country. Today, she's
one of hundreds of women sharing their stories under the
hashtag I Am Vanessa Gean. The twenty year old private
(18:53):
first class disappeared from post on April twenty second. She
told family and friends she was being actually harassed, which
is unaccessable because she wasn't supposed to be safe while
working and protecting the country. We live in crime Stories
(19:20):
with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about bombshell evidence
that us just come forward in the last hours in
the search for Vanessa again. Straight out to Levi Page,
crime online dot com investigative reporter now joining us Levi Page,
tell me about the discovery of Gregory when Dell Morales remains.
(19:41):
Let's start there and then we'll move to the newly
discovered remains. So Gregory when Dell Morales was twenty three
years old, he went missing August twenty nineteen, a few
days before he was going to leave the army and
his remains were found last week. It's and positively confirmed
that they were him. And this was found during the
(20:05):
search of Vanessa again and FOURTHOOD is playing everything very
close to the vest, Nancy. They're not releasing a lot
of information about it. What do we know about Vanessa again?
Take eight? Listen to what her sister has to say
to the six News your porter Jasmine Colwell. Investigators say
the twenty year old soldier was last seen April twenty
(20:29):
second at one pm. She was a family where our
weld ten girl. She was signing that would come home
that world her parties to every right benings like off
Dame down. You know it would be easy for her
to choose the other route and no, she would come
home every weekend to us. Myra says. Her sister means
the world to her and she'd do anything to find her.
(20:51):
I love her and I'm not gonna stop. I'm not
gonna stop until I hup her whistles because I meant
the Army. C ID is encouraging anyone with information to
come forward, even if you choose to remain anonymous. Please
(21:12):
go to Crime online dot com see Vanessa again, read
her story. I think about my little girl, Lucy. I
have twins, John David Lucy. They're only twelve, but they're
about to turn thirteen. Vanessa just seven years older than
my girl, and I want her prepared to go out
(21:33):
in the world and be a huge hit and whatever
she chooses to do. And to think that she would
be sex harassed at work and afraid to come forward
or lose her job, because don't you know that is
exactly what Vanessa thought. If I come forward, I'll never
make it anywhere in the army, I'll be black bald,
(21:58):
I'll get a discharge. Then what am I gonna do it?
It's just making me ill to even think about it.
To Karen start joining me New York psychologist. You can
find her at Karen Stark dot com. You know, it
doesn't give women very much of a choice. And I
don't want to go down a rabbit hole hole on
(22:20):
sex harassment. I want to help find Vanessa, but I
can't help but believe that these two are intertwined. The
sex harassment she was endearing, and I believe her and
her disappearance. Karen Stark, I mean when you think of
your daughter going out there and putting up with a
(22:41):
crap that she had to put up with and then
go missing. I mean, if she was right, Karen Stark,
if she had said anything, I bet she would have
been black Balt. Well, especially Nancy, you're talking about the
armed services. You're talking about the army, and as it
was said earlier, that's a place where you are not
(23:02):
supposed to I mean, they don't say you can, but
I'd be surprised if they're actually doing any kind of
investigation to look into this. She knew to be afraid
because it's not acceptable. You're supposed to be strong, you're
supposed to deal with it. You're not supposed to ever
(23:23):
report on somebody else, especially sexual harassment. And again, our
program today is about searching for Vanessa. But I truly believe,
I mean, James Shellnutt twenty seven years much a major case. Now, lawyer,
Come on, James, can you believe that two are not connected?
(23:43):
Because think about it. At Fort Hood, every person that
comes in, not leaving, but comes in, goes through a
security guard checkpoint and if you're a visitor, you have
to show your ID and they make a list of
who's coming in. I mean they've do that TV studios
for Pete's sake. When you leave not so much, but
(24:04):
they knew every visitor coming in. And if you work there,
I guess you just show your badge. But long story short,
this was at lunchtime. She left all her stuff in
the armoring where she worked on a munition's repair, and
she took with her just her cell phone. She left
behind her ID, her room card to get in and
(24:29):
out of her room, her keys, her wallet, all of
her stuff. She just walked out with just her cell phone,
just as if you and I would walk to a
different room, we might carry our cell phone with us
in case it rang. She never came back. I find
it very difficult believe that some intrude or some outsider
took her so ergo. Therefore, if an insider a furthood
(24:54):
is involved, how likely is it it's not connected to
these on the job set harassment claims. Yeah, I agree
that that is something that needs to be put up
on her magnifying glass. You know, the bottom line is,
you know as well as I do, when a person
leaves their keys, persh wallet, personal belongings like that they
(25:15):
are planning on coming back for those things. That's not
something you permanent leave or abandoned somewhere. It means that
she was planning on coming back. So when you look
at these two cases, one of the first things that
you know, looking at from a to take this point
of view, that you want to do is you want
to try to connect the dots between these two cases.
Did these two know each other? I mean, that's one
(25:35):
of the first questions that you want to ask. And
then number two after that, you know, do these people
know the same people? Is there any connection in between
the people they know? We're the group that they run in.
And I think that the investigators looking at this case
are fumbling the ball if they don't go back and
look at the other case file of the young man
that came up missing and remains letter discovered. You know,
(25:59):
think about guys. Karen Smith joining me forensics expert lecturer,
University of Florida. Now she has her own podcast called
Shattered Sold. Karen Smith and I first met. I think
Karen when we were doing a reenactment of a murder
and all the possibilities that would help us prove what happened.
(26:21):
Did it happen this way? Did it happen that way.
Remember that and all that fake blood. Karen Smith. Yes,
let's talk about what we know. We know that she
left her ID card, which you need. You know, when
you're at work, you need your ID if you carry
an ID, her wallet, and in my mind even more important,
(26:42):
her car keys. So when I think I've lost my keys,
which is often, I need to put one of those
little tile things on there, but I immediately try to
find them. I like, I can't find my car keys.
Why would she left her car keys? And that tells
anybody you don't have to be forensic expert like yourself
to know she meant to come back because she left
(27:04):
her car keys at her workspace space and her workstation.
That's correct. I'm a military veteran. I'll tell you this.
When you go on base, you go through a checkpoint
and they randomly check id's on the way. In a
lot of times, there'll be a sticker on your car
and you get waved in or you get saluted if
you're an officer. Then you go to your workstation. I
worked in an airplane hangar. That's where I parked. That's
(27:24):
where I went. They come in and they check to
make sure you are where you're supposed to be when
you're supposed to be there. And one of the things
that really disturbs me when I read this, Nancy, was
the fact that they do must numerous times a day.
If Vanessa went or excuse me, if she went missing
at eleven thirty to twelve thirty in the afternoon and
she missed Mustard, they've already said that that was a mistake,
(27:48):
that they counted her present when she wasn't. That is
not That's not what happens in the military. If you're
not there, they find out where you are. Because when
you sign up and you signed paper and you swear
an oath to the Constitution, they own you. You are
there for the duration. And that's which they should have
(28:08):
started this entire thing the minute she did not show
up to muster. Let me ask you something you just said.
Did they do muster For those of the don't know
what that means? Could you explain it very quickly? Sure,
it's a check in. It's basically, are you doing your job?
Are you where you're supposed to be When you're in
the military, attention to detail and doing your job is
what you have signed up for. And I was an
(28:30):
aviation structural mechanic. If I wasn't in the hangar and
I wasn't there at say, three o'clock in the afternoon,
they would want to know where I'm at. Am I
down at aimd am, I down at the dock getting
plane parts off of an aircraft. They know where I'm
at because A I have signed out, I've checked in
with my superior officers. They know where I'm at every
(28:50):
minute of every single ding Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,
we were talking about the disappearance of a beautiful young
(29:10):
twenty year old private first class at Fort Hood. Her
name Vanessa Gim. At first, we kept doing the story
because I felt no one was focusing on Vanessa's disappearance.
She was getting lost in the sauce and everything else
is happening in our country right now. But in the
last hours a bobshell in the case. More remains have
(29:35):
been found in the search for Vanessa. Straight back out
to crime online dot COM's Levi page, LEVI take a lesson.
Listen to what we know about Vanessa herself. This is ABC,
Good Morning America, Stephanie Ramos. Listen. Before Vanessa went missing,
her family says she told them she was being sexually
(29:57):
harassed by one of her sergeants and didn't tell her
superiors for fear of retribution. The Army now saying they
will investigate those allegations, adding that the search for the
private first class continues on the ground and in the air.
But that response not good enough for the hundreds that
gathered outside the army post Friday. How can we not
(30:19):
find one of our own? How can they not find
one of their own? Concerns over the missing soldier gaining
traction on social media, actress Salmahayek joining the effort, posting
a message on Instagram saying, bring back Vanessa. We won't
stop until you come back. Joining me in Austar Pale,
including the lawyer for Vanessa Geean's family. Straight back to you,
(30:42):
Levipage Crime online dot com investigative reporter again, tell me
about the remains found near those of another young private
there at Fort Hood that disappeared. Hood claim they didn't
know anything about it. Well, he turns up dead and buried,
you know, and the shadows of Fort Hood far from
the Army base. His name Gregory, When del Morales do
(31:05):
we know a cod on Morales yet, Levi Page and
where in relation to Morales's Moraine remains were these new
remains discovered? Nancy. We do not know how Morales died.
We don't know the cause of death yet. But what
we do know is that over the weekend, thirty volunteers
(31:25):
from Texas Equasearch, a very respected search group, found remains.
They came across these remains in an undisclosed area near Footthood.
Near the remains were twenty three year old soldier Gregory
Morales was found June nineteenth. He went missing in August
(31:46):
of twenty nineteen. We don't know whose remains they were.
They're keeping everything very close to the vest. Joining me
right now a special guest, the leader of Texas equa Search.
You found those remains, Tim Miller. Tim Miller, before I
get into how you got involved in Vanessa Game's disappearance,
(32:07):
tell me about how your team found the second set
of remains. Well, the remains were found her than walking
this sense of Gregory, But we are not the ones
that actually found him. It was actually somebody else called
a tip in and that's how they was found. While
why we were searching got it. Yeah, but we're not
(32:27):
the Nancy has food for thoughts here, just something for
y'all to think about. When I was talking to Maylor
and I said they were what would Vanessa be wearing?
And Mayor said, well, she's working, she's going to be
wearing her army clothes. So, you know what, we always
(32:47):
want to think about the last person that's seen her.
We really got big question marks right now. Why if
she was working, she was wearing the clothes that the
last person said that she was wearing. And we don't
believe that is credible information. People in the military, when
they're working their work, there were in their armory clothes.
(33:07):
She said she would have those other clothes underneath her
army clothes, so when she decided to go jogging, then
she would take her army clothes up. The other question
is did she leave on her own from that armory
to go to lunch. Well, I'm telling you we don't
think that is the case. Was she last seen by
(33:30):
somebody else? We don't think that was the case. Neither
our thoughts are now. She never lost left that armory
on her own. Straight back out to Natalie Kawadi, lawyer
for Vanessa Game's family. Natalie, let's clear up those very
very insightful questions by Tim Miller. At the very beginning, Natalie,
(33:54):
I asked what was she wearing? I was told black leggings,
athletic laggings that she might go jogging in. And I asked,
why did she have on her uniform? And I was
told that it was okay for her not to wear
her uniform that day. Do you know the answer to that? Yeah,
she was actually off that day. Someone called her into work.
(34:16):
That's the most troubling part. They won't provide us to
the name of the person who called her into work.
She was supposed to go hiking that afternoon with her
friend on the base. They were going to go out
for a hike, so she definitely had a day planned
ahead of her. She was only to come in for
a couple hours to do something on her day off,
and that's when she disappeared. Okay. A couple of questions.
(34:40):
Was the friend she was to go hiking with? Male
or female? A male? Has he been questioned? Yeah, I
spoke to him too. Has he been questioned by police
or fourthood authorities? I understand he has been questioned several
times by agents. I see a d agent. Okay, and
who called her in on her day off. They won't
(35:00):
provide that for us. Actually, they didn't even provide that
information to me about him being questioned. I had to
ask him about that. I'm very curious. I mean, think
about it, Karen Smith. It's her day off and she
gets called in, and coincidentally, on the day she gets
called in, she gets missing. Yeah, that doesn't ring as
(35:21):
coincidental to me at all. Nancy. When you're called into work,
there's a specific reason for that plane needs to be
turned around for deployment, a windshield crack, something happened that
needs to be repaired. They don't have the manpower they
need you to come in and help. If she was
called in to help with something, then they know exactly
who called her in and the reason why. If there
(35:42):
was something different than they need to either investigate the
person who called her in. That's one of the first
place they need to start, because that person may have
been the last person to see her. You know. Another
question regarding the discovery of these remains, I'm trying to
do Terman, if any other items were found, clothing, personal items,
(36:06):
anything like that. Tim Miller, Texas SEC Research do we know? Yeah,
his clothes were found, his idea was found, and of
course it uh, you know, it's been investigator on who
did this, but it was foul play back to doctor
Chris Sperry, former Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Georgia.
(36:28):
Doctor Sperry, at this point, do you believe that tracker
dogs should be able to track Vanessa's route off forth Hood?
If she ever even left forth Hood? It's been as
long as it's been. I've given about a fifty fifty
(36:49):
chance they might be able to track her, but it's
it's very difficult. And also if she walked there, I mean,
if she traveled under her own ability, it would be
much easier to track unless except if she was carried,
if she was brought there by someone else, then her
(37:14):
you know, leaving sent trails for dogs would be very
very slim. To Tim Miller, I understand that tech Texas
EQ Research said it found items on Saturday that could
be linked to Vanessa. Is this true? We're anxiously waiting
for lab reports to come back. Can you tell us
(37:38):
what the items were? H Well, you know, there is
a there's actually a witness has seems something um and
we campus close that. I think that we actually found
something that a witness seems so everybody's excited. To Texas
Rangers and military, they gave more. There's a lot of
(38:01):
people out there, so we're anxiously waiting for lab reports
to come back on on the item that you found.
You found it. We found that by that river, that
Leon River, which is twenty six miles away. Our fear
is that that she was thrown in that river. We
(38:21):
are going back tomorrow and we got miles and miles
of river to do. We know that you know, if
she was thrown in that river that you know of
course by now our body would be decomposed. Were it's
it's impossible to get a boat down there. We're actually
going to have ten kayaks. We feel as though hopefully
(38:45):
maybe it rained three days afterwards, maybe if her little
body was in there, then when the water went bound,
she could be on a shoreline, or maybe we could
find some of her clothes possibly caught up. And because
there's many trees and branches and debris in their sol
where does Leon empty h and it empties into it
(39:07):
actually goes to a damn for lake belt and and
of course at the dam area's very deep. We we
actually had our big boat in our sonar, and we
sown heard all of that lake belt. So you don't
think she made it too. If she was thrown in
that river, you don't think she made it to the lake.
We're only hoping that we can find some more evidence
(39:29):
that we can find her clothes, or with little God's luck,
maybe we can find part of her or all of hers.
So we're yeah, we're heading back out today and we
got a lot of work ahead of us. To Miller,
I know you've been working around the clock. To you
and everyone joining us right now, I want to thank
(39:50):
you because everything we do could help in some small,
some tiny way in finding Vanessa. Tipline two one two
nine four one eighty three hundred repeat two one four
nine four one eighty three hundred two one four nine
(40:11):
four one eighty three hundred Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off,
goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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