231 - Small Bigfoot

Karen and Georgia cover the murder of Michael Jordan’s father, James R. Jordan Sr.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hell, hello, and welcome to my favorite murder, the big one,
the normal sized.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
One, the long one, A long one, but what not
long enough?

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Long?

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Not long enough for everyone else's taste.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Yeah, no, I was gonna say, well, oh, the long one,
but the single story just for this week, right, just
just to finish out the circle. Yeah, everyone, you're welcome
for giving you something to fight about this week.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Enjoy your passions.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
We understand you can't go outside anymore and feel them, so.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
We'll give you reasons so we'll be deeply upset. Listen.
Next week we'll come back with a nice three hour
and forty five minute episode. We're both going to tell
each other extensive stories.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
This story of the persecution and chrisifixion.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Of Christ, and I'm gonna tell the story of this
first seven days of existence in this planet. Oh, it's
like a father it's like a father son episode. Oh
that's sweet. So yeah, we're gonna so yeah, everyone hated
the idea that one of us does one story and
one week and the next.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
And it's understandable. Yes, and none of your two stories.
That's kind of what we what we do. Here's what
can I tell you? What my sister Laura says, yes,
Laura's got the final say on Eype. First of all,
she doesn't listen. She's not a fan, so she's so
she's coming objectively to this, So no one can say,
of course, your sister whatever, right, my sister. Someone comes

(01:43):
and he goes really, at a time like this, you're
gonna change the whole, the whole set up. And I
was like, we just were talking about it. We're tired,
it's summertime or whatever. And she's like, no, no, no, Now,
this is the time. People need structure, They need things
to be exactly the same. You go to McDonald you
want it to taste like McDonald's. Don't fuck around with
people at a time like this. I was like, shit, okay,

(02:04):
of course I think only of myself, as we all do.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
I think only of myself, so we all think of yourself.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, every other week homework sounds great.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
When one of us needs a mental health week and
hasn't gotten their story finished, and the other person has
a nice, thick story that they can tell, you know,
then we'll do one a week. We'll be back to
normal next week.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, don't worry. But also you know, we'll go back
to normal.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Next week.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
This week, when we're not back to normal, let's practice flexibility.
Let's practice change liminal states where things aren't as we
want them to be, and practice our resilience within those moments.
And right now, let's take a deep breath in.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
And let it out.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Sorry, shit, ron, I was trying to lead people in
three deep breaths.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Couldn't have it. And it was like the worst burf
Like it wasn't even a good one. It was short
and forced. You're lucky you didn't throw up. You're lucky
I didn't throw up, you stephen it, You're a lucky one.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Can we really, before anything, talk about this most recent
episode of Perry Mason. I knew, And there's going to
be spoilers, truly if you haven't seen it, where we
will not hear it from you after the fact. This
is going to be a spoiler chunk get away if
you don't like it. Five four three one, All right,
this fucking show is so good, dude.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
I knew from the tone of your voice that you
were about to start talking about Perry Mason, because it
did you really, yes, because it was like this, Yeah,
it was an a how fucking how hot? And like
messy and dreamy. What's how do you say his name?
Matthew Reeves? Well, she Welshman. Yeah, Matthew Reeves sounds right,

(03:55):
is it? Matthew? Do you know that he has a
wine tour show. I was listen. I was just casually
reading looking him up on Google. No big, I google
searched him to come up on my way. I just
wiki feeded that guy just to see what was going on.
He has a show, this welsh Man and a wife.
As this is telling me right now. He has a

(04:16):
show called The Wine Show where he and his actor
friend Matthew Good with an E. Sure. Oh he's like
a I think beautiful brunette man. Yeah, yeah, he's okay.
They went to the Royal Shakespeare Academy together. I bet.
I'm sure they do all that that stuff. They just
pre pandemic travel like Italy, drinking wine together and talking

(04:39):
about wine and wine varietals and like slowly getting drunk
on wine and laughing about it. And he has this
fucking beard. It's like like Vince level quarantine beard. See.
That's the thing about that guy.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
And I'll talk about him as Perry Mason because because
I don't know him any other way. I know he's
I only want to talk about being in love with
the character, per see.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
I want to objectify the afterwork. That's my goal.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
I want to objectify the merleau he's drinking. But that
spirit of a man, which is you're fighting your demons overtly.
You've got a very nicely weathered leather jacket. You've got
sparkled in your eyes even when fucked up shit is happening,
but your eyes are also lightly dead because you've been
around the block at the time. You've seen too much

(05:32):
everything about it and the way he like when he
fights with John Lithgow and he gets that kind of
like sparkle.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
It's just like he's dynamic and thrilling. You're threwing this
like really dark, interesting woman who has her own secrets,
but you're like clearly in love.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
With her a little bit yes, and she's like get
out of get out of here, and fuck you.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
It's not romantic, but it's very bonded and it's hot
as hell love it. I mean, it's okay. So this
most the spoiler.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
I want a state just because it made me laugh
so hard when it actually happened. Do you know I'm
part of the show I'm gonna say it's the part
where the little girl walks up to give the sister
her isn't it.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
This isn't a like a real big plot spoiler, So
don't worry if you know. Yeah, no, if you're if
you're powering through the spoiler.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
But it turned the gift turns out to be a
humongous snake, and it's so shocking, and the little girl
is so good and it's played so perfectly that you're
as shocked as the sister is. I can't remember her
character's name, her Tatiana Masly I believe from Orphan Black
and she's oh yeah, but that moment. So my friend

(06:43):
carry O'donald, the hilarious Cary O'donald from Sex Unique podcast.
He texted me and said, when the little girl tries
to assassinate her with a serpent, I knew this show
was it And I wrote back, Oh my god, that
part was all caps.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Who I am K Karen is a little girl caring
a perfectly wrapped what you think is a pastry box too,
because that's a fucking mean thing about it is. She's
just like, these are going to be some incredible nineteen
thirties pastries sweet.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
They keep saying the word sweets, and I was like, oh,
I can't wait to watch or bite into whatever the
fuck this is gonna.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
I was thinking Danish, like straight hardcore Danish.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
I was thinking of like a you know princess cakes
that have the the green stuff onto it, like the person.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, it's also called they have it a victory. But
it's like our family actually, our family like cake. It's
what you fucking get and you fucking like on our
birthdays at L Coyote. But you have to have what
you have.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah, yes, the it's the stuff made of almonds. Yeah,
what's it called. Yes, everyone's yelling.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
Someone tweeted a thing that said, you you'll the most
you'll ever understand. What a ghost feels like is when
you're listening to a podcast and the hosts are trying
to remember a word for something that you know. Yeah,
it's bad that I can't give credit to it. I don't.
It's just been going around.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
I think my sister sent me that means so true,
because right now everyone.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
At the home is yelling almondost Stephen Deven's a ghost,
the ghost boo boo boo.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
So that's what I was picturing, a little tiny princess
cake or something that was kind of old fashioned looking,
and she opens it up and it's the biggest snake.
It's the big scary snake.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Vince can't do snakes, and he lost his fucking mind.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
It was so good and tricky, and to me, that's like,
it's it's how this show is so smart. It's doing
incredibly creepy things realistically, so you don't go you never
walk away going oh that was a little I mean,
there's things that are super graphic, but it's for the
it's for the plat.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Such a it's got such a good creepy feeling of
like everything things wrong in the world. Yes, and you
got it looks beautiful because it's nineteen thirty something.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
There's also that brilliant scene with the black cop who
actually saw the body. Yes, and when those other detectives
come to talk to him about how incredibly oppressively but
unspoken racist they are, and like how they're controlling him
with barely lifting a finger.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
He's like they're like speaking to him in a like
po like a respectful, positive way that intones this creepy,
fucked up negative it's like, you don't even have to
say anything negative. It's just it's just in their fucking
it's in the vibe.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
The vibe, it's so like, it's so accurate to how
that stuff actually works.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
It's so good.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Anyway, Bravo, good job everybody. I bet the people who
pitched we're going to do a gritty reboot of Perry Mason.
I bet you they had a lot of doors slammed
on their faces. So the idea that now they're the
maybe queen and king who knows of HBO.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
I love it. It's I mean Sunday Nights Perry Mason
and I'll be Gone in the Dark. It's like, oh,
it's like I'm excited in quarantine. How do you fucking
even do that?

Speaker 1 (10:14):
It's crucial. It's crucial, and the same thing with Tonight Kiss.
Tonight is Tuesday. It's the final episode of this season
two of Dirty John. Oh night watch, it's the big
finale again.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
The new Dirty John YEP starring Amanda Pete. Amanda Pete
plays Betty Broderick. It's a classic story of a woman
who supports her husband through medical.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
And law school.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
Come on, it starts his own firm and everything gets
super successful, starts cheating on her, won't admit it for
a really long time, and basically drives her insane.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
There's so many other elements. I mean, that's the thirst part,
like the gas lighting and the like not not being
a loud to know your own life and to have
any what's the word own ownership, no agency over your
own decisions in life. Because someone is lying to you,
someone close too, is lying to you like that is awful.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
It's an exploitation of your connection where they're saying, oh,
why would you Now he basically denied it for so
long to her where he's like, you're really losing it.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
You're dah da da da, You're going to ruin this relationship.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, he would take it and like fold it back
into what everything that was wrong with her. So by
the time he admitted it, by the time they broke up,
she had snapped. And it is again, it's just it's
so it was such a common thing in the eighties
because this takes place like throughout the eighties, and it's
so familiar to me because there was this time in
like the early eighties where everyone's parents born.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Why all at once we're not saying murders, okay, and
obviously it's not. And especially the the new girlfriend, you know,
it's not. It's not her relationship that was ruined.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
It's not she has and she's not responsible for this
dude his decisions.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
No, no, But I will say this too. The children.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
The child actors in this show are exceptionally good actor.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
Okay, cool, There's one child that's had to do two monologues.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Every time I watch it, I go, holy fucking shit,
how is this little kid?

Speaker 2 (12:26):
He's he's like literally going but mom.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
He's trying to to reason with this woman who's basically
been driven insane or like gone insane and obsessively won't
leave it alone. And he's trying as like a nine
year old. This kid is such a good actor. I
was just like, well, that's your that's our next Leo DiCaprio.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
Right, yeah, so good. I'm gonna watch once we're done
with what are we watching right now? We're okay, we're
almost gone with Veep, like all the way through. Oh wow, yeah,
this is the best. I don't know what I'm gonna
do after what we watched Rambo two on Sunday as
our Sunday Matinee. Sorry, what in that one? Does he
go back? Yeah, the prisoner to get the POW's out.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Oh, that's the one that takes place where he like
comes up out of the river and it's yeah, he's
at one point electrocuted on like a mattress frame.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
I might have been doing my laundry at that part
because I walked Vince watched Rambo two and I snuck
in and out of it. Mm hmm. Little America is
fucking excellent and like the British sketch show. No, it's
on Apple Plus and it's these little episode episodic shows
that you don't have to watch them and order or
anything of like Immigrants to America and their little it's

(13:41):
true stories of what they went through and how they
came to America and thrived and lived and you know,
created their own lives. There's it's a beautiful show. It's
so a Little America on Apple Plus. Yeah, definitely, I
mean this is like Emmy shit, is that for TV?
Or is that Oscar?

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (13:58):
It is right, Yeah, it's great. I highly recommend it.
They're going to get a Webbie for sure, or we're
going to get a British Podcasting Award absolutely and then
books podcasts or what else are you doing? Well? Oh
I okay, here's a weird run.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
Someone I believe his name is Drew McGary and he's
on Twitter and he told a story. He was like,
are you bored, I'm bored. I'm going to tell you
the story of the weirdest thing that's happened to me.
And he did a tweet thread. It's very strange story
of him out hiking by himself one day and he's
talking on the phone. He's walking and he calls his

(14:42):
mom and then there's a woman. Suddenly he gets bumped
into from behind. He goes on an empty trail where
no one is around, and he didn't hear her coming,
and all of a sudden, a woman bumps into him
from behind and he turns around. It's a small woman
who is blonde. I'm doing all this for memory and essentially,

(15:04):
then all of a sudden, he wakes up on the
trail and it's four hours later and he doesn't.

Speaker 2 (15:09):
Have any socks on. Okay, wait, this is his boot.
This is a true story. Is a true story to
a guy named the what's his name?

Speaker 1 (15:16):
I believe his name is Drew McGary, and it's like
basically him saying, this is the weirdest thing that's ever happened.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Okay, So she hits him with a dart, a sleeping
dart or something.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Right, no, no, well bumps into him just like okay, we
don't know. And then after that he doesn't know and
like he was able to do the time, like he
ended up getting home checking his body. There's nothing wrong
with me. I don't have any wounds or anything like that.
But his socks, his socks are gone. I'm going to
go what happened?

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Listen. I'm a doctor, Okay, I'm a trail doctor, and
so I'm going to go with dehydration. Hey, okay, and
the hallucinated her. He hallucinated her. He was so dehydrated
that morning he didn't put socks on at all, okay.
And so maybe the woman existed and did bump him,
and then maybe he sat down to like take a rest,

(16:03):
but he's dehydrat it so we passed.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
Out, okay, right, or alien or she's a small bigfoot shaved.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Down, small coming coming up to CBS, this smallest bigfoot
in the forest.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
H Well, but here's so I ended up reading the
thread because I was like, this story is amazing, and
it's what it's just my cup of tea.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
And then I knew other people would tell either tell
their stories or do some kind of link.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
And somebody named Jose Gomez said, if you if you're
into this, I just found this podcast and it's about
stories that of.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Like stories that are hard to explain.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Basically is how he is how homae Jose Gomez explained it. Well,
it turns out it's front of the podcast Payne Lindsay's podcast,
Radio Rental. It's hosted by Rain Wilson, playing a character
I think his name's Vincentcarnation. It made me laugh so hard.

(17:06):
This character that he plays is insane and goofy, and
it's as if it's said in a v VHS video
rental store.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
Great. I love the spot to begin with, there's someone
a little kid just barfed earlier in the day and
they put cat litter on it, so that you've got
that going on in one corner yep.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
And then of course misdoubt fires playing on the TV
over the cash register video stores. Remember, but it basically
is like he sets it up and it's very goofy funny,
and then they play the video and it's the person
telling they're hard to explain story firsthand themselves, which is
my favorite. And it's real that parts real and they're real.

(17:44):
And there's so there's eleven episodes. I think there's two
stories per episode. I listened to it all in like
three hours.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
It was so good.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
And these stories, some of them are some of them
are like oh, and some of them are like holy shit.
There's one that tells so beautifully tells and it's later
on I think it's episode eight or nine. She talks
about going to camp with a guy that everyone loved
this guy. Everyone loved this guy, and near the end
of camp they were all going to.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Go out to everyone was going to go out. I'm
just going to spoiler alert this. I know tell they
were all going to go cap show of Pain Lindsay's podcast.
Yes podcast, by the way, I don't know if you
guys know this.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
He's yeah, we are just going to talk through pretty
much all the podcasts, pain Lines, any and all Pain
Lindsay podcast.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
He's done a lot of work. This is going to
be the summer season.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
So so essentially they had to sign because they were
all counselor. So they had to sign out for the
day and say where they were going to go. It's like,
here's my name and I'm going this place and whatever.
So everyone knew where everyone was going and when they'd
come back, and this guy was like, hey, let me
give you a ride to her, and she said, in
her gut, she felt it. There was something weird in
his eyes. The energy was wrong. She was trying to

(18:55):
walk around getting a ride from someone else, and it
was almost like that was the last choice, and she
like tried because she was going to get in her
friends whatever. So she was like, you know what, I'm
actually going to hang back and he's like, no, it's
totally fine.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
I'll give you a ride. I'll go wherever you want.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
To go to her, and he was really trying to
convince her, and then finally he got really mad, and
so she stepped back and started making a bunch. She
was like, I don't want to go with you, and
like made a scene. So other people came over and
like guys basically got him away from her, and she
went back up and was like, I'm staying here for
the day, and then everyone left.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
She went back up and checked the log book.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Her name had been erased from the log book entirely,
and she was like, there's no doubt in my mind
that he wanted to kill me. He was going to
do something to me that and she basically gives its
beautiful little speech that's essentially you know what we've all
been saying to each other for so long. But essentially,

(19:53):
you don't owe anybody anything. If somebody wants to give
you a ride because they're being nice, you don't have
to be nice back to them.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
The scene is okay, Like, you can be a fucking
everyone thinks you're crazy and you make a scene because
you don't feel comfortable situation. It doesn't matter what they
think about you. Yes, you can be.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Not in lois not when yeah, when you're uh, it's
like and apparently she grabbed her friend and said, no
matter what happens, do not get in the car with him,
because he had a car that could only be him
and one other person. So she was then convinced he
was going to try to get a different girl into.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
The okay, when she called, we're all going to listen
to him. It's called radio rental.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
And that's just one of the many unbelievably creepy, amazing,
horror fying stories so good.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
I'm listening to that. I've been wanting to text you
what I keep forgetting and I want to tell you
on the podcast too. There's this new podcast that I'm
listening to called Missing in Alaska. Have you seen it
or heard of it? It reminds me so much of
the Oregon One. What was the organ one we loved murder?
An organ murdered? You know what? It might be the
same people, Oh, just fucking together, that would make sense, Yeah,

(21:00):
you know what it's it's about In the nineteen seventies,
these two congressmen were on a plane out of Alaska
or like town to town in Alaska, these two, and
the plane disappeared. No one ever fucking found it. And
the whole podcast is about the conspiracies of like does
it go all the way to the top because the
one of the widows of one of those congressmen ended

(21:21):
up marrying this dude who was like in the mob,
and like everyone knew it was in the mob, and
they're like all these crazy mob ties and like maybe
there was a briefcase with bomb in it, and it's
just like it goes all the way, but in Alaska
in the seventies, which is the creepiest possible place to be. Yes, okay,
it's really good. Do have you listened to the entire.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
Series the whole Okay, now, okay, so I'm also I'm
going to start that. Yeah, immediately, that's great. I need
a good morning. I'm all all my morning walk around
podcasts kind of like this is I'm all up.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
This is like your this is like made for you.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Okay, beautiful Missing in Alaska. Listened to with me everybody,
this will be the new book Club.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
There's also I always talk about the podcast Family Secrets
because I just love it so much. It just speaks
to me. And there's an episode I listened to yesterday.
Oh I'm crying now, by the way, it's kind nice
a new thing. I'm real dehydrated. I can't buy my socks.
It's a mess.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
It comes up real randomly. Huh like sometimes you do
not see it coming.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, you ever get those ones?

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (22:24):
No, I always can tell. I'm like, I think when
I go this is a time when when normal people
would cry, And then I'm like, oh fuck, hey, I'm
normally normal. So there's an episode back from April called
bug Dust of the podcast Family Secrets that made me cry.
That is so beautiful and oh I don't know it

(22:45):
like hit a spot in me for sure. Love it.
Love that. Go to our merch page my favorite murder
dot com.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Wait, wait what we have? Have we talked about unsolved
mysteries for you?

Speaker 2 (22:58):
We have? Okay, let's clear the death because lots of
people have been like, we need do you hear?

Speaker 1 (23:03):
And I am blown away at how amazing. Like so, look,
we've done ads for this. We do ads for this.
This is not an ad.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
It's not an ad, but it's so so beautifully.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
I mean, like, look, the original was great and it
was totally reflective of the time and like a guy
in a trench coat coming out of the fog being like,
mysteries are right.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
And they were like ghosts bread. There was like ghost
loafs of bread and like alien It was like a
lot of that, And I was a little worried that
this would be almost like just another true crime show.
You know.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
I think the key to this one too, is it's
the people telling their own story. You get the people,
you get the family, you get the wife of the
missing man, you get the reporter that was there first, Like,
that is the way to do it. It's those that's
the most compelling way to do it. You don't need
a talking head.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
It's a really so good it's a well done true
crime show. Yeah, the fucking French story. That's so much
like the John List story.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
I haven't I only have watched the first episode and
then I honestly couldn't watch another one. I was gonna
be like moving on, but I was like, what in
the fuck happened there?

Speaker 2 (24:14):
It's so crazy. It's crazy. Well, people on Reddit are
talking about how similar that it is to the plot
of the game, the movie The Game. Yep, right, so
everyone go watch the game from the nineties. I think, well,
is that just because he falls through a roof? No,
he because the guy Ray the guy was a screenwriter,
Oh right, and then really into movies. The whole movie

(24:37):
was that he felt like he was being chased in
this simulated world that ends with him falling off a roof.
Oh so when he gets a call and runs out
of the how, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, no,
I see that, I see it. But I guess my
thing is.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
The fact that he's a writer, makes all of those
things really difficult, because truly, if you oh no, we
saw the crazy shit, well, I mean really yeah, the
stuff you write down and this stuff like I don't
explain to myself what my documents, right, You never write
like the following list is for the upcoming Easter Bunny movie.

(25:17):
I might write you just start going eggs, eggs, eggs,
and everyone's like she's totally lost it. Like anything out
of context that's creative, like that could make you seem.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, if you don't expect anyone else to ever read it,
but then if they find it after your fucking sudden
and mysterious death.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
Right and it's taped up under the I mean that one.
That story is just like it's all of those stories
are so much to handle and like absorb in there,
and it's so great.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
They're doing it so good. I want more and more,
Like I just wish they were. I think there's more
coming out. There's only six, which sucks, but it's so good. Yeah,
I love it so good. Yeah, okay, good, I just
had to We had to put that on the on
the table. Does it's been so long? All right, merch
we have it there's some new shit the puzzles. I
don't think a lot of people have been tagging us

(26:07):
and they're finished puzzle because it's so hard to finish.
You finish that puzzle, God damn it, you do it.
The quarantine depends on you. And then oh, should we
do Exactly Right News? A couple of quick Exactly right
podcast network we have this week out is everyone's favorite

(26:28):
I Said No Gifts podcast, and Get the Guest is
comedian yair Lester.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
The most hilarious. Yeah, Murder Squad this week, they're Billy
and Paul are actually covering that mysterious death of Tamla Horsford,
which is a story that a bunch of people have
been talking about recently. It's it's they're looking into this. Basically,
she was the only black guest at a sleepover party
in Georgia in November of twenty eighteen, and she was

(26:58):
found dead the next morning, and people have been asking
to have her case reopened, so Billy and Paul look
into it. It's that's very I've seen a lot of
people talking about that recently.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
That's really interesting. I can't wait to hear what they
what they talk about me too, anything else, and.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Then, of course on Diner this week, me and Chris
talk about the Dave Matthews Band. I don't know what
more topical, timely relevant material you need from a podcast.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
No, I mean, yeah, it's like, don't you cross promote.
You guys are dropping the dime. I don't know, you're
on top of the news.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Sure, Oh my god, it's like it's weird. We are
as if the Los Angeles Times was in a car
had once been in a car and picked people up
from the airport.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
Another thing that Vince always reminds me of whenever he
hears Dave Matthews Band referenced, is that that remember that
one time they were driving over a bridge in Chicago
and they opened the They were like in their RV
or they're like touring van. They opened the flood gates
to like get let all the you know, waste out,
as you do on a bus over the river. But

(28:08):
there was a tour boat boat underneath at that exact moment,
and they dumped all their touring you know, excrement onto.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
The onto that boat, destroying the lives of at least
thirty five tourists. I mean you would, I mean, where
do you go, how do you stop screaming?

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Live a life? Like when you have your first child,
do you look at it and go like, this is
so much better than that one time that Dave Matthew's
fans excrement got dumped upon us, Like every moment has
every worst moment of your life, like someone dies and
you're like, but is it as this is? This is
worse than the time that Dave Matthew's maam, But not.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
By much actually, now that I think about it, because
at least they lived a full life and I was
merely twenty three when I was on my tour. I mean,
it is so fuckd and it is so like I mean,
it's like that, it's I think it's the kind of
thing of like, yeah, let's bring this to the forefront.
You can't just dump shit anywhere. Literally, you can't just

(29:17):
dump shit literally anywhere.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
You can't And like that's a good metaphor for life too,
Like look where you're going before you open your floodgates
of excrement from of rock and roll, like your backup band.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yeah, you're gonna wanna be careful when you are heading
out of town.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah. In love and life, please watch where you dump
your excrement.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
Please, your extra excrement smells extra bad to other people.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Treat your friends and family like you would a boat
full of tourists below Dave Matthews and like cover them
with your love and.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, yeah, tarp of love. Actually be the better bus driver.
That's like, I'm going to wait until we get out
by the fields and grasslands nowhere near Chicago.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Like people are downywhere downtown Chicago. I didn't know. They
must have just pulled out of their hotel.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
They just they had just rocked out the night before
the best show.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Everyone's high fiving, high fiving each other. Bass players are like,
we did it, guys. Dave match is like.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Boo boo boo boop doing his terrible scatting.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
Scatting is right, you're scatting.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
I mean this is we're right now covering material that
every decent morning radio show went into deeply seventeen years ago.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
When this happened, we turned into a morning radio show.
Hey my first this week? Or are you first? I'm first,
first and middle? All right, well, okay, so here's my story,
my solo story. I love to hear it.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
I know, right, yeah, but I'm here for you to
ask questions. Give me the old signal. If you don't
want me to ask the question, ask the questions. I
just don't know all the answers.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
Okay, Okay, I have a question because I didn't know
this until very recently. Did you know that Michael Jordan's
father was killed? Yes, well I'm going to cover that murder.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
Okay, Oh my god, amazing what we're just going to say.
I was going to say, if you ask me a question,
you frame it.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Did you know? Okay? I always have to say that
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
I forgot damage terribly as a child, damaged terribly.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
It's going to be like pulling teeth for me to
be like I didn't know. Okay, there's no like, there's
no world where it's okay for you not to know
a thing, or like no, no, no no, make fun
of you and like what come after you? Okay?

Speaker 1 (31:59):
I mean for the fact when I've already been wrong
and it's being discussed. That's fine, because I won't be
the shirt in the face to face you and me.
You might What you should say is I know an
interesting thing.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
I found out an interesting thing I didn't know, and
that's okay, because it's okay, nice to know everything. It is. Yeah,
in fourth grade, I got made fun of for not
knowing what the word horror meant. And looking back, I'm like,
that's probably good that I didn't know.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
Yeah, you fucking cunt. But I mean, at the same time,
it was humiliating. Well, what isn't I mean when you're
fourth grade. That's the kind of thing where every day,
when you are in like grammar school, especially into junior high,
you get up and go to school, the rules have
changed overnight. You don't know what you're supposed to know.

(32:49):
All you know is you're already behind totally. You don't
have the right you don't own the right thing.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
No, this fucking hypercolor shirt was baller a week ago.
And now now you can just see where I'm sweating
because I.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Hit prety What now it's just tragic. Wait, I have
to That just reminded me. I was telling my sister
a story about things that happened today, and at one
point my sister goes, oh, my God, Jesus Christ, what
are they a seventh grade girl? And and then my
niece goes, hey, that's offensive to me.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Seventh grade girl here representing I would never rack like that.
They're more woke than we are.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
They know, Okay, so actually, yeah, you mentioning this to
get back on your Sorry. I cannot wait to watch
the ESPN thirty four thirty, not thirty by thirty, which
was that's.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Eat that's a home improvement show.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, thirty by thirty. I thought it was all about beams,
posts and beams.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
So yeah, that's there's And there's also The Last Dance,
which is the documentary on ESPN, and it's ten episodes
and it's all about Michael Jordan's life, okay, which Vince
watched and loved, and I kind of checked in and
out as I do and did with Rambo. But then, honestly,
I didn't know about James Jordan, his father being murdered

(34:14):
until I watched this, and then of course Vince knew
everything about it, and I was like why, I mean,
you told me and it was really okay. So then
I looked to it and it's like a fucking whole
conspiracy mystery thing.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Oh shit, please tell me all about it. Because when
everyone was talking about the Last Dance, I assumed it
was thirty for thirty, but it's the Last Dance whatever.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
But I was like, I'm gonna.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Watch that because I every sports documentaries, even though I'm
not the biggest sports fan you either. They when they
know how to tell a story and they tell they
basically save it for the good ones.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
The good ones are unbelievable, and this is that, and
it takes you back to that early nineties time and place,
you know, space Jammy fucking cool shit. And I think
because I didn't care about sports so much, I tune
it out immediately. I didn't know about this whole story
about Michael Jordan's dad, so I looked into it for
this podcast that were a little podcast one yes, one,

(35:09):
this one now mostly so I got information from the website.
All that's interesting. There's an article by Marco Margheritoff. There's
a Washington Post article by Kyle Swinson. There's a great
article on dead Spin that's just an old GQ article
from nineteen ninety four by Scott rab There's an Insighted

(35:31):
Edition article by Sal Bono, a Chicago Tribune article by
Dan Wider, And then there's also a NBA like YouTube
channel hosted by this guy named Mike Corzemba, who does
like conspiracy theories and stores and like little ten minute
stories about the NBA. It's really cool. Wow, And he
had a whole episode about this. So all right, let's

(35:53):
get into it, okay. So James Jordan is born in
the tiny town of Wallace, North Carolina, and night teen
thirty six. At the age of eighteen, he joins the
Air Force, and in nineteen fifty six he marries his
high school sweetheart, Dolores. They have three children. They moved
to Brooklyn in nineteen sixty three so James can receive
training as a mechanic on the GI Bill. He studies

(36:15):
airplane hydraulics and Dolores finds work at a bank and
while they're there, on February seventeenth, nineteen sixty three, they
have their fourth child. Michael Jordan. Wow you heard of them?
Pretty humane? No? Yeah, wait, can I just say really quick?

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yeah, the mind bogglingly humongous donation that Michael Jordan made,
like in week two of the protests to Black Lives Matter?

Speaker 2 (36:40):
How much was it, Stephen? Did you look it up?
I think I think it was like one hundred million dollar.
It's amazing. He's really big on charity and that that's
kind of his mother's work. His dad was like, so,
James Jordan. His dad was super supportive and behind him
the whole way, advising him on sports. And his mom
was like, okay, but you can't become a big headed asshole,

(37:03):
you all. And she would organize all his chair because
he was really big into charity and you know, children's charities.
And that's his mom, Dolores, it's pretty. It's a pretty
He had really supported wonderful parents. Karen, you were correct.
It was one hundred million. Wow, thank you. It's not
that crazy, amazingongus. Yeah. So the family eventually moves back
to North Carolina so the kids can be raised in

(37:24):
a safer environment. And then Michael decides in high school
that he wants to play basketball, which James supports him,
even though James prefers the game of baseball, which he
actually had played semi professionally himself, but he was like, basketball,
let's do this. In the early nineties, Michael Jordan is
an enormous basketball store star and store kind of there

(37:45):
was a couple of stores. Yeah, and he becomes a
household name. He wins championship after championship three NBA championships,
three NBA MVP wins, and two Olympic gold medals. And
he is a fucking global icon whether or not you're
into sports. I remember this so well. I mean, he
was just he was huge, he was a star. So

(38:07):
Michael describes his father, who he calls Pops, which is
my favorite nickname for a dad or grandfather character. It's
just Dad, Pops. Yay, my brother in law and my
so my nephew. They call their the grandparents, Honey and Pops.
And I just and her name's not Honey. She just
goes by Honey and Pops. And they're the sweetest fucking

(38:29):
people on the planet. That's O cute. Yeah, So he
calls him, he calls his dad Pops. He's his best friend.
He's his number one cheerleader. He like from high school
to Michael's NCAA career at the University of North Carolina
to his professional career with the Chicago Bowls starting in
nineteen eighty four, Jans Jordan is there every step of

(38:50):
the way, flying from city to city with his son
to support his career. So really important figure in Michael
Jordan's life, which takes us to July twenty second nineteen
ninety three. So James Jordan is in Wilmington, North Carolina.
He's attending the funeral of an ex colleague. And after
the funeral, he visits with friends late into the night.

(39:11):
I think, see kind of like when you do after
a funeral. Everyone's kidot sing and such. Yeah, And then
so he hits the road sometime after midnight for the
three and a half hour drive back to Charlotte, which
is a long drive after midnight. You know, he's expected
to catch a plane to Chicago the next day to
meet up with Michael. And an hour into the drive,
he gets tired, so he pulls over to take a

(39:32):
nap in his it's his prized He's in his prized
Cherry red nineteen ninety two Lexus SC four hundred. I
know about as much about cars as I know about sports,
so I don't think I know what that means. So
he pulls off the road to take a nap. He's
just south of Lumberton, North Carolina, which is a city
in Robison County, about thirty minutes outside of Fayetteville. So

(39:55):
we're talking a lot of little rural rural areas right yep,
like long stretches of road, that sort of thing. It's
disputed whether or not he just pulled off the road
or if he was in the parking lot of equality
in but either way it wasn't a really great place
to stop. They were like both known like drug dealing areas. Okay,

(40:16):
you know what I mean, I do? Do you know
what I mean? Drug dealing and areas Karen Stace used
to be a drug dealing area.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Listen, I've spent some time out in front of the
quality in not in that area, but of my own
personal quality in side.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Mm hmmm. So eleven days later, cut to a local
fisherman hunting for catfish spots, a man faced down in
Gum Swamp, which is a creek near South Carolina's northern border.
The body is tangled on a branch and is fully
dressed but missing its shoes. Authorities from the nearby town

(40:54):
of McCall, which is another timy town, can't find any
identification on the badly decomposed by, so they classify him
as a John Doe, and an autopsy determines that the
cause of death is a single shot gunshot to the
right side of the victim's chest with a thirty eight
caliber bullet, I know, And because it's such a small
rural community, there's a lack of storage at the morgue.

(41:16):
So when the body isn't clammed or identified for a while,
it's cremated. Oh no, but thankfully the corner who by
the way, he's a part time corner, that's how small
the town is. And he who also owns a construction
company in town. So like, that's what we're fucking. That's
the kind of size we're document here. Volunteer corner. Pretty
much town size town. Okay. He notices that the the

(41:39):
John Doe has expensive dental work, and so he's like,
let's just save this, so he removes the jaw from
before they cremate. Thank god there remains, as well as
the hands, just in case they're able to identify him
in the future. Crazy right, Yes. So meanwhile, when James
Jordan doesn't arrive as expected in Chicago the following day,

(42:01):
his friends and family actually aren't worried because he's known
for changing plans without notice, But when he doesn't check
in with his secretary after a long period, she calls
Michael Jordan as well as Michael Jordan's mom to let
him know she hasn't heard from him. It's twenty one
days before family members officially report Jordan missing, which is

(42:23):
a long time, and I think it adds a little
bit of like a suspicion to what happened. But it
seems like it was kind of like everyone was doing
their own thing, and it seemed like it was a
normal thing in the family. So on the twenty second
day that he'd been missing, his body is identified with
the dental records from the job owns the coroner kept

(42:44):
as James Jordan. Wow. Yeah. And police also find his
prize Lexus. It's been abandoned and stripped in the woods
near Fayetteville, which is about sixty miles from where his
body had been found. So when news of his death
breaks though, the media goes fucking ape shit, do you
remember any of this? Yes, Okay, I don't, And there's

(43:07):
and there's all kinds of speculation based on the fact
that So there's another thing I wasn't really like keen
on is that Michael Jordan was super into gambling. I
had no idea. So Michael Jordan would gamble on anything
from like ping pong games to golf games to like
is my bag gonna come out first while we're at
the airport waiting for it. Like he was super into

(43:30):
like gambling and stakes and you know, I bet you this,
I bet you that, right.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Yeah. Sorry, I just got really sad because it makes
me think of all those times that we would be
waiting for.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Our bags, Oh, Karen, all those times on the road.
Why haven't we even betting ten bucks on them this
whole time?

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Seriously, with Georgia and I had a running like argument
about like, will our bags come out first? Because we
paid for first class this time? And sometimes they would
and sometimes they wouldn't. I would say it was like
fifty to fifty. Yeah, But every time we get up there,
it was like we were both kind of like, what's
it going to be this time? And that whole time
we could have been having fun and betting, and now

(44:07):
we don't get to do it anymore.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
Covid ruined all of it. We are going to have
in twenty years our on our first when this is over,
on our first tour back, you may events we're going
to have the most fun. It's gonna be fucking ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
We're gonna I think that's when we go on our
Dave Matthew's bus floor and just dump shit across this nation,
whether it be on stages in a show, verbally, literally,
whatever it takes. Okay, sorry, no, we're amazing. So he
would he would bet on anything, Yes, he would.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Bet on anything. But he also was into like Atlantic
City in Vegas and shit like high roller style.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
You have to think about the fact too, Michael Jordan,
is you know, the biggest basketball star consistent, wins huge
paychecks or whatever, his his what is that the you know,
his excitement. Oh, he was always trying to peak that excitement.
The problem with people that get into that position where

(45:09):
then then you win the great the Golden Championship, I.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
Don't know what it's called.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
You win the championship, the Golden Championship, the Golden Championship,
and you're the Golden Boy of the Golden Championship, and like,
of course then you're suddenly you're just like ten thousand
dollars that my bag comes out.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Now you really need the hit, you need the adrenaline,
and you probably go from like I don't know what
their financial situation was, but like let's say they have
a normal, you know, middle class situation and suddenly you
have they're throwing Nike is throwing you millions of dollars
to make your own shoes, and you don't ever have
time off because you're practicing all the time. So yeah,
of course, like with your fucking best friend Scottie Pippen,

(45:47):
I don't know if that's a thing. You're fucking betting,
you know, all the time because there's nothing else to do. Probably,
so it becomes this compulsion, I would imagine it.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
And it's about winning and it's about power, but it
is like it's also about you get to a point
where those people get to that point of success where
they don't even see the rest of the of the
casino because they're always behind the velvet curt exactly where
the food's spread, where there's gambling and a food's bread
no one else has ever seen before.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
That's right, Yeah, all right, sounds great. Actually, yeah, we'll
get there. We'll get there, except balolo. Except it becomes
a problem though. And in fact, the summer that James
Jordan is killed, the NBA had just announced a huge
investigation into Michael Jordan's gambling problem. Oh yeah. The investigation

(46:40):
center around the fact that Michael had given a large
amount of money to a known drug mule then like
gambling crony who had worked for what was a dude
who was known as a drug kingpin and he and
it was for gambling debt. And there's proof that he
was in business with all kinds of shady characters who
he owed lots of money in gambling losses. So that's

(47:00):
not the not fun part is that you actually rack
up losses.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yeah, because you do, you know, Yeah, when it's out
of your control, it's just the luck of the draw.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Yeah, then you lose luck of the draw, but fucking
the chips are stacked against you. Yeah, look at me. Yeah,
a fucking terminology and shit. So it's so the media
goes crazy. It's theorized that the killing isn't a random
act of violence because it is a fucking crazy coincidence, right,
And instead the media implies that the murder happened because
of Michael's gambling debts and maybe they killed his father

(47:30):
to send him a message. And actually, to this day,
it's still a huge conspiracy theory and there are people
who will who totally stand by this theory, like maybe
the mob did it, Maybe the NBA was like sick
of his shit, and they were making him look bad,
they were making them look bad, or they were going
to They thought they were going to come after them
and their families. So that's like a theory. I don't

(47:50):
believe it, but no, it's not it's not true, So
I'm just gonna say it. At the time of his
father's murder, Jordan issues a statement saying he was outraged
and that quote, I'm trying to deal with the overwhelming
feelings of loss and grief in a way that would
make my dad proud. I simply cannot comprehend how others
could intentionally pour salt in my open wound by insinuating

(48:13):
that faults and mistakes in my life are in some
way connected to my father's death, which is like, yeah,
you're not just dealing with your father's unexpected brutal murder, right,
it's also people saying it's your fucking fault. Yeah. So
Michael and his family have James's ashes interred at a
small cemetery near a church in Teachee, North Carolina during

(48:36):
a private ceremony, and fifty two days later, Michael, now
thirty with his without his biggest supporter, shocks everyone by
announcing his retirement from the NBA, and he says, quote,
the most positive thing I can take from my father
not being here with me today is that he saw
my last basketball game and that means a lot. So

(48:56):
he retired because he didn't want to play another game.
And you know, obviously he said that. I just read it. Yeah. Yeah,
he's heartbroken. And there's this crazy heart wrenching video that
I think is in the Last Dance. After he wins
a big game on the first Father's Day without his dad,
he goes back to the locker room and just lays

(49:19):
down on the floor and he's sobbing, and there are
all these cameras around him, and they like kind of
no one knows what to do.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
It's really sad, but no one knows what to do.
But they certainly don't stop rolling those cameras out of decency.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Right, That's exactly right. So meanwhile, the investigation has to
go on, right, So investigators led by Robison County Sheriff
Hubert Stone, they're able to trace, so they get the car.
They traced thirty six calls made from the Lexus's car
phone to friends and family of two local teens. So
Daniel Green and Larry Dummery. So they're eighteen years old.

(49:56):
They had become friends when they met in third grade.
They're really close. They had both been outcasts, and Daniel
is black, Larry is a Native American from the local
Lumbee tribe. They're both just kind of outcasts in their
families and they find each other in third grade and
become inseparable, almost like they see each other like brothers.

(50:18):
The now eighteen year olds both have criminal records, so
it seems like an open and shutcase these two kids.
Police charge them with murder in the first degree, conspiracy
to commit armed robbery, and armed robbery.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Sorry, because they made calls from that stolen Lexus and
that's the connection.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
Because they're known criminals in town, in the small town,
and because all the thirty six calls that are traced
through those they are all too friends and family of
those two boys. Yes, but stealing a car is not
the same thing as killing a person. If you're questioning
the investigation into the stolen car, sounding weird, you're exactly right,
thank you, huh. Thanks. So Demary quickly turned on his

(51:00):
friend Daniel Green when police tell him that Green had
already rited about you know that lie of like, well,
he told us what happened, said it was your fault.
What are you going to do? Yeah, Demriy agrees to
a plea deal and a lighter sentence when the DA
points out the evidence they have against him for the
murder and as well as three other armed robberies he'd
been a part of that same summer, one of which

(51:21):
he had smashed an elderly woman over the head with
a brick. Oh so it's not looking good. No, Demriy
pleads guilty to charges related to the murder and agrees
to testify against his lifelong friend Green. Demery stories that
he and Green originally planned to rob a tourist at
the quality in but then they saw this, you know,
this red Lexus parked along the shoulder of the road

(51:42):
nearby with the driver asleep, and they were like easy target.
They said they planned to tie him up and leave
him alongside the road and just take the car. But
Demri claims that Green, that his friend Green shot the
driver in the chest when he started waking up, saying
it's all his fault, you know. And then they took
a look at the victims driver's license realize who he is,

(52:02):
and then decide they have to get rid of him.
So they dump the body over a bridge near the
swamp and a band in the car in the forest
forty miles away. And that's his story. And since Daniel
Green doesn't give a statement at all, that's and he
doesn't testify, that's kind of the official version of what happens,
and that goes on the record. So the case against
Green mounts. Okay, So a rap video, like a homemade

(52:25):
rap video comes out that was filmed days after Jordan's death.
In it, Green is wearing the NBA Championship Watch and
nineteen eighty six all star ring that Jordan was given
by his son, which had both been taken from the lexus.
So like, they're clearly involved, they were both there. I
feel like, yeah, there's no way to dispute that.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
Yeah, and also you can't if you're wearing the jewelry
of the person. Then my whole theory of hey, you
can steal a car but not kill the person, like
those could have been two separate things. But right, yeah, right,
it doesn't look good, Yeah at all, it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
It's Yeah. So when Green's murder trial starts in January
of nineteen ninety six. The state's case rests mostly on
Dummery's testimony against his friend, but it's supported by supposed
blood evidence. The prosecution maintains that Jordan was shot through
the heart at close range while sitting in a driver's
seat of his Lexus, but the coroner's report shows there's

(53:21):
no exit wound, like it didn't come out, you know,
it didn't just go in and stay, which I think
is what happens when a gunshot is is shot close up.
But it's so it suggests that the gunshot was actually
shot from farther away. Does that make sense because there

(53:41):
was an exit wound, because there wasn't an exit wound,
because there wasn't an exit wind exactly, Okay, And there's
also no blood or gunshot residue found inside the car.
But the state presents expert testimony from a woman named
Jennifer Elwell. She's a special agent at the State Bureau
of Investigation to support the Dummery's store against his friend,
and she testifies that two chemical tests suggested quote a

(54:04):
pretty good indication of blood in the car. So it's like,
we don't know, is there isn't there blood in the car,
How close up or far away was he shot?

Speaker 1 (54:16):
It's weird, huh, well, very weird too, of you would
think that there would be more than a pretty good
indication of blood at a gunshot scene.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
There should be if you're bringing it up as a
large part of the evidence against someone. You know. Yeah,
but it's nineteen ninety six. You know, shit's fucked up.
Green is convicted and sentenced to life, and Damery is
only given forty years because of his cooperation, and the
case is officially closed. But now a day is twenty

(54:46):
five years later. Green is trying to get a new
trial in the North Carolina justice system, and key elements
of the case are coming to light. So first is
the mystery of the shirt that James Jordan was wearing
when he was shot. The autopsy concludes that Jordan is
shot once on the right side of the chest, but

(55:06):
the pathologist notes that there are no holes in the
shirt that he's wearing when there's no sign of gunshot
was residue either, Okay, ready for this. After the autopsy,
the police gave the shirt to a company that performs
funeral services, and then they buried the shirt because they
claimed it had an overpowering stench, which, like, I don't

(55:28):
care who is responsible for what. That's the fucking weirdest
explanation I've ever heard of something like this.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
I mean, because I guess because the body was decomposed
and in a swamp or whatever.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
But still like, shouldn't you keep the shirt for evidence evidence? Yes? Yeah, right,
so they bury it, which I think is weird too. Yeah,
and the shirt read is a later dug up at
that facility, and it has a hole in the chest
where it didn't before. Okay, Yeah, So Green's attorney theorized

(56:01):
that the state was at least careless with the evidence
or maybe even tampered with shirt and added a hole
that wasn't there to begin with. And then may be
there's a reason, and then this is where it might
Does it go all the way to the top question mark?
So remember all this phone calls made from Alexis There
were thirty six total. Well, the police figured out that
the first call went to a eight sex hotline because

(56:22):
the kids were fucking eighteen years old. Of course it's
is yeah, idiot, it's okay. Yeah. The second call is
made to a nine to one nine area code in Pembroke,
North Carolina, seven hours after the murder, and it's registered
to a man named Huber Larry Dees and the call
lasts less than a minute. But this dude, Larry des
is a coworker of Demery. He is also a high

(56:44):
level drug trafficker who ends up being arrested in February
of nineteen ninety four, less than a year after the murder,
and is linked to a Colombian cocaine pipeline that had
connections in New York and North Carolina. So that's a
second phone call they made off of this stolen cars
car phone. Okay, So this guy D's most importantly though,

(57:05):
is the biological son of none other than Hubert Stone,
who I mentioned before, who happens to be the Robuston
County sheriff. What Yeah, does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (57:16):
They called the sheriff's son, Yeah, yep, who is a
drug drug worker and drug dealer and in a lot
in the same ways where the like the preacher's son
would be kind of a rebel, right, you know.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
Like he might be the only man who could ever.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
Really ever reached me, the son of a preacher man,
that's right, Okay, So okay, their first call is to
their drug dealer friend whose dad.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
First calls to a sex hotline. Oh, sorry, they had
to get on.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
That's where I said idiots, because they're so what together
in a car they're making a phone call, so that
someone's like, hey, what are you guys? Like they're going
to have dual phone sex with the one pot.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
And then it's like charge it to the phone light.
So yeah, when I was in junior high and I
got in trouble for something, probably I think it was drugs,
they put me in a room. They'd be like, wait,
you're we're gonna call your mother? Wait here, and like
I didn't, And there was a phone there, and I
was like, I'm gonna make nine hundred calls and like
and the only number I knew from like the back
of a rolling stone was the Grateful Dead hotline. So

(58:27):
I called it.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
What they say, I think it was just a recording
of like dead, like grateful Dead music.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
What I'm saying is that's such a fucking uh what's
the word When you're really young, I'm sure thing to do. Yes,
it's just like, yeah, your brain is like what do
we call it? Who do we call? Plus they probably
never used a fucking car Like, we didn't have car phones.
That was like a rich people fucking thing. Ninety four
phone that was a car phone. Yeah, that was a

(58:56):
very big deal. There's a very big deal. So like,
who do we call them? Like, the only number I
know is the one that comes up at fucking one
am on the TV every night, And I called one
and it's like, do you want to party?

Speaker 1 (59:06):
He side, Hey, Hey, you want to get double car
sex with your friend?

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Look your friends sitting next to you. So horrible. It's horrible.
So in addition to him being the biological son of
the Robison County sheriff, he's also no. One of the
lead detectives on the case is Mark Locklear. He's a
friend of this kid, the son Deese, and sometimes lets
Deese ride along in his patrol car with him. Okay,

(59:36):
all right, here's the biggest problem is that Deese is
the only person on that car phone call Logue to
never be questioned in connection with the case. They call
thirty six people, they question, let's say thirty four. My
end the sex line. They give it a call for
She's like, hello, She'll answer any questions you want, right,

(59:59):
But they lead out the number thirty six person ridiculous, right,
it doesn't it's bad. That's bad. Yeah, that's that's not good. No,
And Green's attorney finds that the prosecution knew of Deese's
relationship to the sheriff inly detective and he doesn't disclose
any of this to the defense at trial. So like
that alone is just a mistrial probably at that point.

(01:00:21):
Don't you think I would think so? Yeah, So I
think that's what they're going for. Yeah. So Green's lawyer
thinks that James Jordan. What they say is that James
Jordan was in the wrong place at the wrong time
when a drug dealer drug deal was about to go down,
and Emery, this kid Diese or another party shot him.
And they say that maybe Deese's connection to local law

(01:00:42):
enforcement helped him get out of trouble. But the kid,
this Kidde himself doesn't comment on this angle, but his
lawyer says that the theory is completely unfounded, and he
claims that Green and Demery had only called him because
they kind of knew that he was a local drug
dealer and he might be someone who would be in
the market to buy the Hardy had just stolen, which
sounds totally feasible to me. It's just so weird that

(01:01:04):
he has these connections, so that makes sense. It's just
such a you know, it's it's the investigator's fault that
they didn't look into this one name. Well, and then
why is it there fault or was it intentional?

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Yeah, because it's it's on them for true diligence, right, right,
I mean call every person because also why wouldn't you
It just doesn't seem very smart where it's like, if
you say you were trying to cover for someone's son
as an insult, why wouldn't you just have the actual

(01:01:37):
do the the investigation, do the interrogation.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
I'm going to go through the motion, even the fake
alibi if you needs. Like, I'm not telling you how
to do your your shy job, but like like pretend
that you're going through the motions.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Right, But but maybe in those you know what we've
seen before in stories like this where in small towns
when there's such a lock on that the law enforcement
aspect of life, and it's a lock like no one
messes with certain people, no one does certain things that
maybe they're they're never pulling back and saying this is

(01:02:11):
going to be a national, if not international story. We
better cross every tote, every eye. They're just like a
business as usual.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
So in the early two thousands, actually the Robison County
Sheriff's office is caught up in a federal corruption probe,
so there are issues with the Sheriff's department aside from this.
It's not a coincidence. The probe is called Operation Tarnished Badge,
which is really clever. Twenty two officers are charged with

(01:02:40):
crimes including perjury, drug trafficking, and money laundering, but neither
Locklear or Sheriff Stone are caught up in the federal
probe at all. And Stone dies in two thousand and
eight and Dees serves some time of a federal sentence.
He's released in nineteen ninety eight. He denies any involvement
with the death at all, And there's really nothing to
connect to them except for that phone call and the

(01:03:03):
curious circumstances that he never got asked about it, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Yes, And what's interesting is they could have literally been like,
we got this car, which means we might have money soon.
Let's see if we can get some pot, yeah, or
something that is just it alludes to more but actually
is just kind of a standard fair could be where

(01:03:27):
you think.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Of like a small a small town, small time drug
traffickers or drug dealers. So they can't have you know,
maybe maybe five thousand dollars at a time of drugs
to be sold. So but they know that's going to
have the kind of money to buy this brand new Lexus.
Not a lot of people, so they think of the

(01:03:47):
one guy they know who might have an actual hookup,
you know, and then if it's a hot car, they
can actually right and it's a hot car and he's like,
fuck you no, right, which any smart crook would know
to do.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
But see. Yeah, and they also like the idea that
they would make that video and wear that jewelry, which
means that at some point they knew who they killed.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Oh, they absolutely knew, And I think, yeah, it sounds
like assume as they killed they knew that night. Now
I don't think they knew, but I oh, okay, whoever
killed him didn't know. They found out immediately, but they
didn't seem that bummed. They made a fucking music, They
made a video, so it turned you know. Meanwhile, both
both Demery and Green had been partners in at least

(01:04:29):
two other armed robberies that's that same summer, during one
of which Green had stolen a thirty eight caliber gun
from an elderly County store clerk who he shot Allegedly.
The clerk survives. They found that stolen firearm in a
shot back in Green's home after his arrest. They say
it's the weapon that killed James Jordan, but they can't

(01:04:50):
prove it through ballistics, so they're like, this is all
you know. This is obviously what happened. It's not that complicated,
but they're still fighting it. In Green's post conviction motion,
and his legal team argues that prosecutors didn't disclose a
trial that multiple other chemical tests performed by that woman
Elwell on the leather taken from Jordan's front seat were
inconclusive and blood might not have been present. So there's

(01:05:14):
all these blood issues, and over the years, the state
has agreed that there was little evidence to show much
or any blood inside Jordan's car, and Green's attorney says
the absence of blood goes against the official version of
events which Demery had made and gives enough reasonable doubt
for Green's case and also weird is that the blood

(01:05:34):
evidence in the case was destroyed almost immediately after the trial,
which Elwell later admitted was out of the norm, and
the head of the lab said the evidence had been
destroyed without his knowledge. WHOA, someone got in there. Yeah.
And an outside audit of the state crime lab in
twenty ten that just happened, you know, otherwise found that

(01:05:55):
analysts omitted, overstated, or falsely reported information about blood evidence
in one hundred and ninety cases from nineteen eighty seven
to two thousand and three that ended in convictions. WHOA.
That's what people need to think about when they think
about fucking well, he's a convicted felon. It's like, or
you know, this person's clearly guilty because there was blood

(01:06:16):
evidence or this kind of evidence. You know, we're talking
about humans making doing these tests other humans, and humans
are fallible completely yep. So you just never know what
you can count on. Yes, it's very true. It's very true.
Thank you. We've been doing this show for four years,
four and a half, you know what, four and a half.

(01:06:40):
It's almost like we're in an abusive relationship with true crime.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
Look, the way true crime has been served up for
a long time is like, here's the story, here's the case,
here's the infallible source or the final word. Here's how
you can feel about it. You know, it's important and
it's a it's a major change, but it's like, yeah,

(01:07:05):
it's like that part in the Staircase, you know, one
of one of our our bonding.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
Pieces of media.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):
Where they show that that guy that was the blood
splatter expert was making ship up.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
I mean, just making things. I truly like until.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
I saw that documentary, I was just like I'm sorry, yeah,
like this is this is there's no way to make
up science, Like, there's no way you can do that.
And it's like, of course you can, of course you
can mishandle things, right, of course you do.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
You know, you're the ones that's saying, well, here's how
we're going to test it in my garage. And the
same way, you can't rely on eyewitness testimony because humans brain,
humans have fallible brains, you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
Know, yeah, that can't be the only evidence exactly. And
it's like then you have to make sure that you're
that all the sources are okay, And yeah, I mean
it's it's bewildering to think about, and.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
A whole scary. It's very scary.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Things have to change, Yes, the processes have to change,
you know, And that's why people get mad at us.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
If we're like people clap at the end of a
live show.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
They're glad that a serial killer died or went to jail,
and it's just like that used to be.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
I'd be like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
And it's like, because there are those people who are
in jail and they should not be right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
Okay. So these days, as of twenty eighteen, Green is
making an appeal for a retrial, and he claims that
he wasn't even present during the shooting, so at this
point he's now telling his side of the story. He
says he's guilty of accessory to murder after the fact.
At the most. Green's official version of the events on
that night of July twenty third, nineteen ninety three is

(01:08:48):
that he and Emery were at a cookout at a
friend's house. Around one point thirty, Demory left the party
on his own and Green stayed behind, and then Demery
returned to grab his friend and he was visibly upset.
He asked Green to come along with him, and they
left the party together at four thirty am, and Larry

(01:09:08):
says that the reason he had left earlier was for
a drug deal. Instead, had gotten into a confrontation with
a man in a red Lexus and he had fatally
shot him, and he asked his best friend Daniel Green
to help him dispose of the body. Green says, he
agrees to do it, and they take his possessions, realize

(01:09:28):
who he is, but he does help him dispose of
the body. So that's what he's admitting to at this point,
But he says he wasn't there for the murder and
he didn't pull the trigger himself. If Green was only
convicted of what he's admitting to, which is accessory after
the fact, he would have received a maximum sentence of
ten years under the North Carolina law, but instead he
continues serving his life sentence in a medium security prison

(01:09:52):
more than twenty five years later. Wow. And so what's
actually interesting is that Demery story between his original confession
when he was told that his friend turning against him,
interviews with authorities, and his testimony against Green, his story
has changed several times over the year, whereas Green's has
stayed the same. But after his request for a new

(01:10:14):
hearing is denied, and Demory declines to comment on his
new claims. Nothing moves forward and Green will be eligible
for parole on October fourteenth, twenty twenty one. His late
attorney is Christine Mumma, and she's the executive director of
the North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence, so Total Badass,
a nonprofit that focuses on wrongful conviction and whose efforts

(01:10:37):
have led to criminal justice reform. She says that they'll
continue to appeal Green's case, and you know, they're now
in their late forties. And Demery is also being considered
for parole even though he was denied twice, once in
August twenty thirteen and once in twenty sixteen, and according
to a spokesperson, there's a review going on of his
case as of twenty nineteen, and there's no deadline to

(01:11:01):
make a decision. So it's kind of just sitting there
up there. Yeah. Wow. So after retiring from basketball, Michael
Jordan pursues a career in baseball to honor his father
and joins the Chicago White Sox, which I never knew
was why he retired from basketball and became I remember

(01:11:23):
he became of baseball.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
Yes, I never knew that was the reason either what
I didn't know the timeline of that at all either.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
After one season, he returns to the NBA. He won
three more championships with the Chicago Bulls before leaving the
team in nineteen ninety eight, retires for a second time,
joins the Washington Wizards in two thousand and one, in
place for them until two thousand and three. He's considered
one of the greatest basketball players of all time, and
he's inducted into the NBA Hall of Fame in two
thousand and nine, but the death of his father still

(01:11:53):
leaves unanswered questions for many people, and the conspiracy theory
that James Jordan was killed because of his son gambling
debts is still like hotly debated, and the fact that
the actual story has a lot of holes and doesn't
quite add up just kind of helps with the rumors.
And I feel like there's also this thing where it's
like the simplicity of two eighteen year olds out for

(01:12:17):
you know, a joy ride and trying to rip off
a tourist and murdering one of the greatest basketball legends
of our time, his father and greatest supporter, is just
it's so tragic. I feel like a lot of people
just don't want that to be the truth, you know
what I mean. Yeah, that tragedy can be that random, right,
I don't know. That's fascinating. Yeah. James Jordan died nine

(01:12:40):
days before his fifty seventh birthday. Oh it's so young,
I know. And about he has just this kind face
when you see him in photos with his son when
they're celebrating. It's just like the pride you can just
see in his face that his father, Michael Jordan once said, quote,
he's a voice of reason that always drove and challenged me.
My father used to say that it's never too late

(01:13:02):
to do anything you wanted to do. And he said,
you never know what you can accomplish and till you try.
And that is the murder of James Jordan. Wow, that's fascinating,
No idea, I can't believe it. Yeah, it's not just
it's just bewildering. Yeah, yeah, and tragic.

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):
It's crazy and the tragic and then him and Michael
Jordan being already in the spotlight. I it is so sad.
It's yeah, the idea that Michael Jordan was put through.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
That tragedy, like in the spotlight.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Yes, and then blamed. That's disgusting. It's like you're blamed.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
For it totally. That's horrifying, Like look what you did
when really it's just I don't I don't believe any
of the conspiracies. I think it was just a fucking
time and place and big coincidence. But I think it
was a simple, a simple robbery that turned Yeah you know, yeah,
it would make sense. Yeah, but then again, job, there's

(01:14:03):
still but who knows who shot them? That's the other thing,
is like we don't know who pulled the trigger, so
there's still this mystery going on. It's just like, right,
it's just sad around. Yeah, great job, thank you, really good. Thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
Oh we're coming up on the two hour march. Yes,
we're not so far away, you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
You guys want them a million hours, I won't give
it to you next week. Yeah, really, should we do
some some fucking hourray?

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
Hey, you guys, we need you to send in more
fucking horays. Maybe just comments on Instagram or Twitter or
in the fan cult of your fucking arrays or email
them to us at my Favorite Murder And I guess
they could just be things that have made you happy
this week, or wins at you're feeling, or you know,
shout outs. You want to give just something good at

(01:14:52):
the end of these horrible fucking stories that we have. Yeah,
so please send those in. And then if you've sent
them in and we haven't seen them and or have
talked about them, sentiment again because we probably didn't see
him this.

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
I love this one because the subject line is this
is a fucking horay, but I don't know where else
to submit, so here I am lost amongst the hometown page.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
So this must be from a fan calls ya that works.

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
Hello to all the beautiful souls of MFM, both with
and without pause. I have only discovered this podcast very
fairly recently, but I've bench all episodes and I'm completely
caught up.

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
Yay, thank god I found you. Guys. Truly feel like
I know you and that you both get me so much.
It's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
Anyways, my fucking horay is not only that my fiance
and I both survived a coronavirus wow amazing, but that
we are both also celebrating eighteen months sober and have truly.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
Gotten our lives back on track. Shit, Oh my god,
it's incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
Okay, not only as a unit, but as individuals as well.
We have both struggled with drug addiction for the majority
of our lives and have been so extremely blessed to
come out alive. And on the other side, I know
it's not all going to be a piece of cake
from here on out, but I say, we've already been
through hell and high water, so we can make it
through anything, including both testing positive for corona.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
My god, God, bless it. It's real.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
People wear your damn mask. Crazy times. We are crazy
times we're living in and I couldn't be more thankful
to have my recovery family, my amazingly wonderful man, and
as my fans. I knows y'all, my murder girls, love
and light, eat and see, fuck, congratulations and see like
about six different fronts.

Speaker 2 (01:16:33):
Oh my god, that's such lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:16:36):
News all around. I'm so glad. I'm so glad that
you came through a coronavirus and are okay.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
Congratulations, You're like the rest of your life is going
to be fucking awesome. Now you've done it. Yeah, I
mean you've really done it. You've done it, and you're
doing it and you're going to continue to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
Eighteen months of sobriety is so much, so much, that's
be weird new parents about it. Let's call eighteen months
a year and fucking six months.

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
But what chip is that? Ninety? Let's see's a bit
a big old. Do they do it by days? Yeah?
So ninety days and then all two years? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Let's see, it's two chips minus a twenty day chip.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
I just made you like it a ninety chip. They
make you change in chips. Congratulations, the best. Yeah. And
there's such a huge community online and just in Murderinos
alone on Facebook and Instagram of people working towards sobriety.
It's great.

Speaker 1 (01:17:37):
Can find so much support. So many people that you
know have found each other. It's really lovely, so cool. Congratulations.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
Yeah, okay, this is just goes a fucking hooray. My
fucking array for this week I had to share with you.
I work as a nursing assistant while going to nursing school,
I take care of women who have gynecological cancers. This weekend,
while being overloaded with too many patients and not enough time,
I was stressed and constantly running around one of my
fourteen patients asked for help in her room, and I

(01:18:06):
going to help her to the bathroom and get her
comfy back in bed. And while in her room, she
told me she had recently had a stroke in May,
and I told her for someone who had a stroke,
she was doing amazing with her speech and walking. And
she said she had one more goal she needed to
achieve and with her childlike sweetness, I'm assuming an intellectual
delay from her stroke, she said, quote, I need to

(01:18:27):
keep working on my physical therapy with my middle finger.
I thought, okay, odd goal, but it's a goal, I said,
your middle finger, and she replied, yes, I miss being
able to flip the bird at people. I don't think
I had smiled so hard and so long. Then she said, quote,
I usually just practiced. When the President's ads come on TV,
I try and flip the bird. I literally laughed out loud,

(01:18:50):
and that sweet little goal of hers changed my entire
perspective for the rest of my crazy day. Thank you,
guys for keeping me sane during such crazy times. I
hope you all stay safe and healthy. Remember stay sexy,
don't hang out with murderers at your kids' sporting events,
and wear a fucking mask in public. Lauren. Yes, nice, nice, Lauren,

(01:19:11):
good one, Lauren, you're doing fun, doing God's work. Yeah
for real, Well here's more of that.

Speaker 1 (01:19:17):
Hi, friends, My fucking horay is that I started a
fucking hooray at work. I'm a social worker in Philadelphia
working at a methadone clinic. As you can imagine, our
work is filled with stress, anger, fear, and heartbreak, and
as a black social worker, the pain has been doubled.
We didn't want to keep ending our weekly meetings on
a low note, so I suggested we start a fucking hoorray.

(01:19:39):
The first one shared was from my coworker who just
got engaged to his partner of eight years.

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
Oh that's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
Thank you for continuing to do the work of destigmatizing
mental health and for your work towards equality. Stay sexy
and be nice to your therapists. In parentheses, we're struggling
to Brittany.

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
Wow. Yeah, isn't that awesome? I love that? Oh my god,
so good. I'll have one more. Okay, hello bold women,
which I love. I've never thought of myself as bold.
That's awesome. I have been embracing your fucking horay messages lately.
And I'm so happy to be able to share one.

(01:20:17):
I was diagnosed with breast cancer in August twenty nineteen,
had a missectomy in November, chemotherapy from January through April,
followed by radiation therapy. Holy shit. I had my last
treatment this Wednesday. Fucking horay. Indeed, the biggest horay is
that I have my amazing husband and daughter, hi Emma.
She's a listener who have done everything in their power

(01:20:39):
to make all this nonsense bearable. I honestly couldn't have
done it without them. So fucking horay from my beautiful
little family. Peace ann Wow, I love this.

Speaker 1 (01:20:50):
It's like a It's like a medical fucking horay session.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
No, it's like a yearbook of medical roaring back. Yeah.
I love it. And health and healing and.

Speaker 1 (01:21:04):
Sassiness yeah, and focusing on the goods some gratitude.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
Yeah, I love it. Do you have a fucking ride
for this week? I just so my sister and I
have started doing No, wait, that's not it. You know
what it is, fucking crying. It is weird and good
and also not. I don't love it. It's terrible, but
I know it's important and it's bringing up you know,

(01:21:30):
old reminders of crying. That's not it either. It can
be crying. Yeah, that's good, it's been good. I did
a like shower, sob did you slide down the wall
and then hold your face. We have a bench seat,
so I sat on the little bench and then yeah,
I held my face and it was like it was

(01:21:51):
a kind of a thing. Yeah, yeah, it felt good.
It felt good. Then I cut all my hair off
and going to ray. Is that I my my first
quarantine self haircut? Isn't terrible?

Speaker 1 (01:22:05):
It looks great, to be honest, I just thought you
trimmed your bangs. I didn't think and there was any difference.

Speaker 2 (01:22:10):
It's just another bob, it's not. It's actually not the
worst haircut I've ever had, which is saying a lot.
So yeah, oh that's good. I love it. All those
things and more. What's yours? Well, because I just was.

Speaker 1 (01:22:21):
Going to say, you know, for a long time, my FA,
I would try to very quickly talk through myself crying
in therapy where I didn't want to cry, so I'd
be like, well, and I thought if I could just talk,
it would she would kind of ignore the fact that
I was crying, and she would always make me stop
and cry separately, so.

Speaker 2 (01:22:40):
You don't want to wait your fifteen minutes. You don't
want to waste any of it crying.

Speaker 1 (01:22:44):
Yes, and I have like seven good stories, like you
need to hear this, lady.

Speaker 2 (01:22:48):
Yeah, and she.

Speaker 1 (01:22:49):
Was like, old, breathe, I'm holding it with you. It
is infuriating and it made me cry. I can only
I mean, it's been so long and I can only
now just I have to stop myself and be like
mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
I know you're not gonna let me power through.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
This, but it really is because I think part of
when I was younger, when I would start crying, I
would think, well, this is just how it's going to
be from now, you know what I mean, Like I've
been overtaken by this feeling and now I'm powerless to it,
and that would that idea would make me crazy. And anyway,
I'm such a fan now yeah, no, I am too.

Speaker 2 (01:23:25):
I'm going to keep keep going with it. It's bringing
sit up and that's important too.

Speaker 1 (01:23:30):
I would say that mine and this is very almost
like very specific to you and I and what we've
been going through lately. I'm really loving the power of
not saying anything at all. We've had a couple moments
exactly what we're talking about lately that were very key,
and they were important, and there was a lot of

(01:23:52):
pressure on us to like respond and fill the air
and make other people feel better about things. And I
would say it happened a handful of times over a
matter of days, and we just sat there. And there
is something too, not filling the air and not letting

(01:24:13):
other people off the hook, and not letting people be
comfortable when they're demanding you do it in lots of
different small ways and instead sitting in silence because it's
a difficult thing to do, and it really is an
incredible power move, sitting in silence without like filling the
air and not apologizing, like stating your side and fact

(01:24:37):
and truth without saying ever saying the words I'm sorry
or sorry or using that is I swear to you.
It's a lifelong practice, but especially lately, it's almost like
I feel inside, I feel taller.

Speaker 2 (01:24:51):
It's like we have a superpower now. It's I am
so used to filling the silence is to get other
people off the hook because I don't like awkwards silences.
But then you know, and then you learn that when
you just be quiet and let other people talk. You
learn a lot and it's important. And we've been going
through that and it's it's been business stuff, and I

(01:25:12):
think as women, yeah, we want to let people off
the hook a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:25:16):
And also just as a sidebar dundum, just since it's
on my mind in this moment, I would just like
to say this to both you and I and anybody
who's ever in this position. But I think especially women
in business situations, people like to get you to talk
about your feelings. They like to refer to your feelings,
and they like to bring your feelings up so that

(01:25:37):
later your feelings are what the point is and not
the facts of what you have a problem with. And
so I would just advise everyone to keep their eye
on that that when people start talking about I know
you're upset, I know you feel this way, you have
to be sure to get in and correct and say
that's not what we're talking Whether I'm upset or stoked,

(01:26:00):
this would still be happening. We're not talking about my
reaction to what's happening. We're talking about what's happening.

Speaker 2 (01:26:05):
Right, So I'm really because of a fact, not I'm
not my upset ness is not the.

Speaker 1 (01:26:10):
Fact, it's not on it's not what's relevant here. And
we all have reactions to things and that's not we're
talking about what the problems are, right, and that is
something I got taught that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:24):
A little while ago.

Speaker 1 (01:26:25):
But it's we can come up lately, and it's really
amazing how often that is. You know, in business, in
lots of things in life, in relationships, everything can be
a tactic. You know. It's like people don't want to
be people want their way, they want to feel right,
they want to do whatever, and you you have to
just always be your own best lawyer and make sure

(01:26:48):
that people don't allow people to frame arguments in a
way that then puts you in a certain light and
suddenly we're all talking about what you're like, because that's
not it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:00):
And I think it's a it's a trick.

Speaker 1 (01:27:02):
It's a tactic maybe, And sometimes there's people who just
don't even know they're doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:08):
It's not an awareness, an inherent thing that we will,
it's just.

Speaker 1 (01:27:12):
The habit of oh the little ladies upset, right, Yeah,
so that's a yeah, that's another one. I just don't
say it now.

Speaker 2 (01:27:20):
Well, I'm proud of this. I feel like we've we're
getting the job done. We're bad ass motherfuckers and I'm
proud of us and someday you'll be too, someday. Cool.
Thank you to Stephen Ray Morris. Ray Morris always be
having our business ladybacks. Yes, so much. So thank you, Steven,

(01:27:43):
and thank you for all the work. Stephen. Right now,
my god a one man band of.

Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
Podcast engineer, sometime podcast producer. He is wearing every hat
in America, home.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
In an apartment, also raising a child the moment.

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
So there's so much and Stephen, you have been killing
it and thank you so much. We could I mean,
I know we've said it a couple of times, but
we literally could not do the show.

Speaker 2 (01:28:12):
This network wouldn't exist as it is without you at all.
It's no, it's not at all. Very ear dear to us.
You're doing an amazing job and we really appreciate it.
Thank you raising a kid and a cat, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:28:27):
For one and we love you, Steven. On top of
all that, we do, thank you guys for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:28:35):
As always, this is the fucking coolest job and life
and it's because of you, guys, and we're so grateful
for listening to us and connecting with us and identity.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
We're so grateful that you like the idea of one
story a week. Thank you for that support, that unwavering
and beautiful support.

Speaker 2 (01:28:54):
Mental health lasted another three years on this podcast if
since you guys are letting us to oh good here
other than the one more year with.

Speaker 1 (01:29:02):
Two stories show, our big once a year podcast episodes
coming up. Thank you so much for supporting it. No,
we love you, and thank you for even giving a
shit one way or the other. Yeah, that's what's beautiful
is people care enough to even care about it's right.
So that's a gift. We appreciate it. We're glad to
do this show for you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:23):
Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you
want to cook?

Speaker 1 (01:29:29):
He