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January 7, 2021 67 mins

In this week’s former Fan Cult exclusive episode, Karen and Georgia cover the death of Robin Boes and murderer Lowell Amos.

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:24):
What's up to destry.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
And you and you.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
Karen has a new obsession.

Speaker 4 (00:35):
I'd like to tell you guys about it. It's this
fucking flag that the Minton Murderino's made us, and she
hasn't put it down since we got here.

Speaker 5 (00:49):
There's something about a flag, everybody.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
It doesn't matter what size.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
It is, all right, everyone get hurt? Yeah, O go.

Speaker 5 (01:01):
I feel like I went to Yale in the fifties.

Speaker 4 (01:05):
She suddenly started doing fucking stage work.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
What do they call it, when you walk around the stage.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
Space warks work out of nowhere, flag work.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
That was when we stopped doing live shows.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Hi, everybody, Hi.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
About us, Sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
About the flag stof.

Speaker 5 (01:27):
I just don't like anything. So when I actually like something,
it's so exciting, everything sucks and I hate it and
then I'm like, oh my.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
God, goodbye, goodbye.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
That was the flag bit.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
I'm drunk off that flag.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
I'd like to address my fish net tight marks on
my legs because last thank you, last last show, I
was like, these tights, they're so rare.

Speaker 4 (02:04):
There's spanks and tights and fishnets. And by the end
of the show they were like down to here. Yeah,
they had like rolled to here yeah, so I went
backstage and just fucking rip them off.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
Yes, but they cost too much to throw away, so
I'm like, oh, wear them again someday.

Speaker 4 (02:19):
It's not on stage where I kept doing this thing. Yeah,
and then I think I flashed everyone on exit.

Speaker 5 (02:24):
It too, and I didn't want So you're saving them
for a special occasion, like at a party where you
can pull them up the whole time, something like.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
That, right right amongst friends. Yes.

Speaker 5 (02:35):
I also normally, sorry, normally we wear fancy dresses because
we get to do shows in these awesome theaters, so
we like to dress for the occasion. When we arrived
at the show tonight, I turned to Georgia very sincerely
and said, I forgot my.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
Dress at the hotel.

Speaker 5 (02:52):
My dress at the hotel, and then I for a second,
I think Vince was like, do you want me to
go back and get it?

Speaker 1 (02:57):
And then I was like, oh no, because I forgot.

Speaker 5 (02:59):
To buy shoes entirely, so like, even if you want
to get the dress, I would have had to wear
these with the dress. And it all fell apart, and
I was like, yeah, I'm gonna wear this weird gap shirt.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Then I was like, you're dressed like a goth already, right.

Speaker 4 (03:15):
The only rule, because there's no rules because we made
it all up, is you have to wear black.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah, so fucking wear what you're so.

Speaker 5 (03:22):
I was still within there in the boundaries of the contract, and.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
She had about outfit. She was like, what if we
were oring.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
Now, and I'm not kidding, you had like nineteen seventies
like sweater that had pink hearts on it and it
looked like something what's her face from Twin Peaks would
be wearing, Audrey, I'm gonna wear my dress still, but
you're black, so you can totally wear it.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (03:42):
No, I think it worked out fine.

Speaker 4 (03:43):
But I did leave on my shitty shoes in solidarity, yeah,
and for comfort reasons.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
So guys, take a look at these.

Speaker 5 (03:51):
If you've never heard the podcast before, this is the
kind of heart wrenching stuff we talk about the entire time.
This is my favorite Murder the True crime comedy podcast.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Youre welcome.

Speaker 5 (04:09):
That's Karen kill Get and that's Georgia hard Star.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
We were going to both do it was shag me you.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Flag, thank you.

Speaker 5 (04:21):
Wait tell them the story about your discovery Midge mid
show last show.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
You know how some episodes, I think of something really
stupid and then just scream it in the middle because
I get so excited about it. Well, this time, Karen
was telling her murder story and like something happened where
someone was like and then they did this thing, and
it's like clearly and I went to go red flag,
and then I.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Just said, went.

Speaker 4 (04:41):
Like a fucking idiot, and also didn't explain it about
it right away.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
I just feel like I was just waving the flag
in a.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
Really inappropriate time.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Wait a second, red flag.

Speaker 5 (04:51):
I was just like, are you listening to me at all?
We're supposed to be doing a show together.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
Connie, I ate a cony dog.

Speaker 4 (05:00):
Oh that's right, Vince Vince brought I was in the hotel,
jam I murder. Vince comes to the hotel. He's like
coney dogs, and I'm like rad and he bought a
next roe. I was like, oh, give it your careen,
and he goes, she doesn't want one.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Well, hold on.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
No, I'm sorry. I did not mean to throw it
under the back.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
No, no, no, you didn't. But when I got the
text from.

Speaker 5 (05:18):
Vince, it was do you want me to bring you
a coney dog, which to me in my mind. I
was like, they're at a coney dog placed together and Vince,
They're like wondering if they want to bring it back
because and then the idea of that is, like, do
you want to eat a coney dog alone in your
hotel room.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
In the dark, like we know you always do. It's like,
of course, not all is apple.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
We didn't invite you to get the coney dog with us.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
It was a couple's only coney dog out.

Speaker 5 (05:44):
It pipple's only coney dog, which is very rude. And
then secondly, do you want to eat in the dark
with the curtains closed? Yeah, I mean yes, the answer
is yes. But I'm not gonna tell you about it.

Speaker 4 (05:55):
I'm gonna pretend like I have some self control over
my own I mean.

Speaker 5 (05:59):
Yeah, I wish you had just said in the text,
I'm bringing Georgia, and then I'd be like, fucking bring
me through.

Speaker 4 (06:04):
Oh man, it's still in the hotel room out in
this paper bag, trash on it.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
You're welcomed when we get back.

Speaker 5 (06:11):
I wait, been, I just wanted you to describe to
the people who I know. But you know, Georgia used
to be a host on the Food Network and so
she's kind of yeah, she's kind of a food expert.
And so I was like, I want you to tell
me about the coney dog, but not normally. I need
you to tell me like you would if you were
on your Food Network show.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
And I have seven years training.

Speaker 4 (06:32):
Okay, American county dog in Detroit, Michigan. Actually, can you
say it again?

Speaker 3 (06:39):
Gonna say American coney dog in Michigan. Say it again?

Speaker 5 (06:42):
No, and then again, and don't leave off the state. Okay,
that's like a weird, controlling producer that's just trying to
fuck with.

Speaker 3 (06:48):
You, right, And I and She's like, I put down
the fucking flag.

Speaker 4 (06:52):
You take a bite, and you get this snap and
then you just get the crunch of the onions and
this soft doughy pillowy bread bread hot dog one and
it's just taketree And for the next three to four days,
your fingers smell like coney dogs.

Speaker 3 (07:08):
No joke.

Speaker 4 (07:10):
I've showered, I've washed my hands multiple times because I
have add and they still smell like Conney dogs.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Is that the end of the Food Network segment?

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, you just go.

Speaker 5 (07:20):
Down into us start talking about all these weird things
you do with your coney Dog, And this is why.

Speaker 3 (07:25):
I got fired when the bad get tired.

Speaker 4 (07:27):
What if the Food Network like the first person in
history they fired me.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, no they didn't.

Speaker 5 (07:31):
They're like, we usually don't do this. We let people
get super drunk on camera, like you you gotta go.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
Yeah, it was really good, you guys.

Speaker 4 (07:41):
And he wanted me to tell everyone that he would
normally go to the other Coney Dog place, not American Lafayette,
but they only accepted cash.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
And you didn't have cash on them.

Speaker 4 (07:50):
But apparently everyone gets angry at each other about what Conney.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
Dog places to go to.

Speaker 5 (07:54):
Yeah, it's very important, we understand it.

Speaker 6 (07:57):
Sircial.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
It is good.

Speaker 5 (07:58):
I mean, Vince claims to be from here.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
Do you need to prove it?

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Can't just go to whatever Coney Dog.

Speaker 4 (08:05):
Well, you know he's from here because he'll hold up
his hand and point to a place that he.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
Says we're going to.

Speaker 1 (08:12):
But I fucking swear to God every.

Speaker 4 (08:15):
Time he points at the same place, fucking with me
because I'm like, well, where are we going to go?
You know, on this day, because we came early to
go on and shep and He's said, well, so we're
actually going to go here?

Speaker 3 (08:24):
And like points at his hand and I'm okay, cool,
I have.

Speaker 4 (08:26):
No fucking clue what are you talking about?

Speaker 1 (08:29):
And I don't want to tear him under my control.

Speaker 4 (08:33):
What okay, because you know we normally go here and
oh yeah, the mitten, the mitten, the mitten.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
I'm from southern California.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
This is southern California. Actually we're from down here.

Speaker 5 (08:45):
No, you're right, we're from over here on the coast.
Well you're not down by the elbow San Diego Gros.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
I don't want to steal your rat joke, but this
is where we're from.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
Then we're actually from here.

Speaker 5 (08:57):
Right here, right at the tip of that one is
where I'm most used to being.

Speaker 7 (09:02):
That was Karen.

Speaker 4 (09:02):
I don't want to take credit for that incredible joke,
and I won't and I refused to.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
Oh we got a gift, did you bring it?

Speaker 6 (09:10):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (09:10):
Fuck, I didn't bring it. Should we bring that bag?

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Is the bag there? No?

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Okay, Well we'll just describe it.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
We'll just describe it. Don't worry about it. No, no, no,
mental no okay.

Speaker 5 (09:22):
So when the people that worked here came up and
they said, someone that's going to be at the next
show brought you this gift, but they're so excited.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
They need you to have it now.

Speaker 5 (09:33):
And he said, and they took They showed me a
picture of it, so I knew what was in it.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
And he goes, and it's really awesome.

Speaker 5 (09:40):
And then we pull the tissue off the top of
the bag and outcomes what looks kind of like a
bowling trophy, but that's been very, very adjusted. And the
bottom I brought it so the thanks, I thought.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
The verbal was way better. So there it is, and.

Speaker 5 (10:05):
On the bottom it says, the fucking word is trophy.
And there's some arms and some eyes and some hair trophies.
This guy's carrying a knife and then he's got a
head in his other hands.

Speaker 4 (10:23):
Whoever made this out Julie Rose, Kelly Lynch, Melissa Lynch,
you talented mother, the Lynch, Kelly Rose and the Lynch.

Speaker 5 (10:32):
Sisters delivering it once again. I mean, if if all
gifts could help us this way, it like, send us
a gift that that shows us how to correctly pronounced
city names, that'd be great. I don't know, it would
be like dinner mats or something, that'd be great. That's amazing.
Now we have a pneumonic aid.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, so I'll always remember trophy should be said.

Speaker 5 (10:57):
Wait, first, we need to talk to the boyfriends who've
been forced to come here. I think I think it's important.
There's some there's people who already don't know what's going on,
and we haven't even really talked about anything. Yeah, and
I know that that's very alienating. And now we're going
to sit down and talk true crime and make jokes.
It's all very bewildering, and we understand. We just want

(11:19):
to know that you're our friends too, and we care
about the oilers and stuff.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Whatever you like, we also like that too.

Speaker 8 (11:27):
What oilers, the oilers, who lions, the red Wings, it's
right here.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
Oh, it's here, it's right here.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
And then you go, oh, what was that?

Speaker 5 (11:43):
We were in some state and I was like, what's
your what's your guys? Baseball team? The alligators? Whatever?

Speaker 1 (11:49):
What I said, like the snake, the rattlesnakes.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
It wasn't the rattlesnakes, it was not. It was like
a pirate. I don't know where it doesn't exist.

Speaker 5 (11:58):
We don't know where we are anyhow. That's our way
of saying hi. So it tend to be nice, and
then we insult you twice, So the.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
Thing this is a true time comedy podcast.

Speaker 4 (12:08):
Also, when we sit down guys and ladies who don't
know who we are, they're going to applaud, and it's weird.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
And then when we say what murders were doing?

Speaker 5 (12:15):
What I don't know and what we sit down and
nothing happened, and they're like, why are they warning us
about things that don't I know?

Speaker 3 (12:23):
Well, now you know, now you know to applaud? What
did it?

Speaker 4 (12:27):
Never happened before? And I just really wanted to be
applaud realized said.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
No, you have to, you have to.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
All right, I was pandering.

Speaker 5 (12:44):
It doesn't make a ton of sense.

Speaker 3 (12:47):
We forgot something.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
See that.

Speaker 3 (12:54):
Hi. When he's not off stage.

Speaker 5 (13:00):
There was like a second wave of even more intense cheering.
Did Stephen pull his shirt up or something?

Speaker 3 (13:07):
But was that he's wearing my spanks.

Speaker 5 (13:11):
He's like, George, I thought it'd be funny.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Steven's here.

Speaker 5 (13:16):
Steven. It's great to have Stephen at the live shows.
He's a very grounding presence. We always like to have
his mustache around. It's just nice. And then people get
so genuinely excited for Steven the podcast producer. It's like
a whole new area of celebrity that has not existed before.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
No, we had no idea, and like, yeah, way to go.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Are you ready to do this thing?

Speaker 3 (13:45):
I'm ready.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, it looks like it. George's first this show.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, I'm first.

Speaker 5 (13:52):
It's her turn, so I hold the flag.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Well, it's my turn. This is the turn flag.

Speaker 5 (13:58):
The whole time, or I can hold it in then
when you're done, I'll go like this.

Speaker 4 (14:01):
Uh huh a flourish to show that I'm done.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
That's all I've ever wanted in my life.

Speaker 4 (14:09):
All right, well, this is the story of the death
of Robin Bow's Okay July thirty, two thousand and two
in the town of Zealand, Michigan.

Speaker 5 (14:26):
Oh, is this Old Zealand. I've been to New Zealand.

Speaker 4 (14:33):
I was like, if I say it's spelled zee landy
if I say this wrong, because you know, they like
pronounce it it's clockshow And then I get yelled.

Speaker 5 (14:43):
At, yeah, but it's spelled zeal every time.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (14:45):
It's about one hundred and eighty miles from here.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
Great, it's up over here.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
It's here.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Great, it's here.

Speaker 5 (14:52):
It's the rare pinky city that does anyone ever.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
Go like, hey, that wasn't actually a question.

Speaker 5 (15:01):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
I found my inn.

Speaker 4 (15:06):
Yes, okay, this is like when you read the Torah
you have to have like a special pointer because you
got to touch it.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
So now I can't read.

Speaker 5 (15:15):
You should go down to your local temple and be like,
I have a new idea, have You're going to love
the Torah again?

Speaker 4 (15:23):
And they're like, you're not Jewish anymore. The fuck out
of here.

Speaker 5 (15:27):
We haven't seen you for twenty five years.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
And we read your tweets.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
Oh my god.

Speaker 5 (15:36):
What if your home temple was like, we're so disappointed
in your Twitter presence.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Hi, JC, I need you to love me.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
My mom.

Speaker 4 (15:47):
Okay, about one hundred and eighty miles. So, the morning
of July Craig two thousand and two, neighbors notice smoke
coming from the Booze family residence b o e s
and firefighters get to the house, battle of the flames
and not realized that anyone was in the house.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
Oh and then a.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
Short time later they discovered the body of fourteen year
old high school freshmen Robin Bo's in boos Bo's in
her bedroom. Robin died of smoke inhalation and what looked
like a blast of fire that had caused her eyebrows
and hairs to be singed, and she was faced down
inside her bedroom door. Karen Robin's mother was the last

(16:27):
to leave that house that morning around eight fifty five
in the morning, and she went and picked up her
friend to go shopping in Grand Rapids a few minutes
before nine, which is everyone loves it, just five minutes
before the fire started, as when she picked up her friend.
A few minutes after Karen and her friend arrived at

(16:48):
the shopping center and Grand Rapids around nine thirty, they
received a call informing Karen of the fire, so they
rush home. She has to be given a shot of
valium to keep from running inside of the house.

Speaker 5 (17:01):
Yeah, she does.

Speaker 4 (17:02):
She knew her daughter was inside of it. Yes, on
the sidewalk, they give her a.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Shot a valiant. Isn't that insane? I mean it's great. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (17:12):
The idea that that woman even had to go through that.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
Could just be like, give me the Valiant. Yes. Firefighters
begin to search the house.

Speaker 5 (17:21):
Sorry, quick idea just EpiPen style value shots for like
for the age we're in and the time we're in,
and wouldn't it ben't lollipops Valium lollipops.

Speaker 4 (17:37):
I think they have like crazy narrocotic lollipops. There was
definitely an episode of Intervention, I swear to.

Speaker 5 (17:43):
God where someone was eating Valuum lollipop.

Speaker 4 (17:46):
They were just constantly sucking on value lollipops, which I
didn't even know is a thing. I don't even know.
They just don't work on me, any kind of thing.
I'm just like, can I I don't know how people
can actually want.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
To do that.

Speaker 5 (17:58):
I mean, I feel like any pill that's lollipop size
is gonna work on me. I'm gonnaut let it.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
I'm gonna let it.

Speaker 5 (18:04):
Do you remember the one in Intervention where the woman
sat in a folding chair in her garage smoking and
taking pills all day. That thing filled me with such
intense anxiety because I was like, this is absolutely going
to happen to me. There was like nothing about it
that I couldn't see doing.

Speaker 4 (18:24):
I'm like you related to every little bitty part of it.

Speaker 5 (18:27):
She couldn't smoke inside her own house, which is good,
so she'd go into the garage with the door shut
and a folding one of those like from the drugs
towards folding chairs, and then people would have to come
out and visit her in the garage while she was
just fucking pilled out and just like chain smoking. Virginia slams,

(18:48):
and I was like, this is my future. There's no
way I'm not gonna do this. I relate in every
way to like, when you're so overwhelmed that you're like,
what about absolute stillness and being high all the time.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
As a solution.

Speaker 5 (19:03):
In a beach chair, in a beach chair, in a
beach chair, go on, Hopefully that woman got the help
she needed.

Speaker 4 (19:08):
Let's just do this episode about intervention episodes.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
Because I've got ten more I need to talk about.

Speaker 5 (19:15):
There was one where the girl started drinking in the
bathroom during the intervention. Do you remember that when she's like,
hold on a second half a bathroom. Then she's fucking
as if no one was going to know I'm such
an alcoholicsane.

Speaker 4 (19:28):
We were both at its like we're not making.

Speaker 5 (19:31):
Fun, No, we're living it. It's tough because a lot
of times, like a flask really does seem like the solution,
and it is.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
Sometimes it is.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
Did you see the dude.

Speaker 4 (19:44):
Who was going to a festival recently and so he
went and you can't bring your an alcohol and so
we went to the festival grounds three weeks early and
buried the bottle of vodka. What And everyone's like, yeah,
I got a good idea, and you're like, stop drinking, dude,
But the solution is to stop drinking.

Speaker 7 (20:00):
Dude.

Speaker 5 (20:00):
When's the last time you paid a bill on time?
But you're fucking burying a bottle three weeks early? Yeah, like,
no judgment.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
This guy clearly is smart and crafty, made good. I
love him.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
Okay, babies, all right, were so valium? That's where that started?

Speaker 1 (20:18):
Oh yeah, it started because an awful thing.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
A right, let's get back. Yeah, let's sink back down.

Speaker 5 (20:23):
We're sinking back Okay.

Speaker 4 (20:25):
So firefighters begin to search the house just to do
a once around, thinking, you know, obviously was an accident,
but they have to do some investigation. They oh, I've
they found Okay. I forgot to second mention this part.
So you know how I hate I hate false confession. Well,
this is from the confession tapes, the new the TV show. Yeah,

(20:47):
the new note this TV show meant to tell you
guys that this case is from this case. So I
watched the whole thing about it and there's So they
get into the house and they go into her room
where most of the fire you know, had happened there
in the hallway, and in the middle photo, in the
middle of the fucking room, there's a five gallon gas

(21:07):
can in the middle of her bedroom.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
Here it is.

Speaker 4 (21:10):
Take a look at this mothering fucking shit. Oh shit
in the middle. That's in the middle of her bedroom.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah, why is it there? I kind of liked that.

Speaker 5 (21:20):
They're like the black boxes of fires, where you'd think
that would burn really quickly because it's what's filled with gas.

Speaker 3 (21:27):
Right.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
So but I's like, no, I'm here to tell a story.

Speaker 5 (21:29):
Yeah, guess what, You're not getting away with shit.

Speaker 4 (21:33):
And the reason I'm doing this case even though I
fucking false confessions stressed me out so much that I
had to turn the show off initially and have a
panic attack real kick before I went back to it.

Speaker 5 (21:44):
See, and then your EpiPen volume would have I mean, imagine,
where's my lollipop?

Speaker 3 (21:50):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (21:51):
The reason is because this is the only one where
I was I'm so conflicted about what actually happened. All
the other ones it was like, well, obviously this is
a false confession, and they didn't do it this one,
I don't freaking know, and so I need your help
with telling me why there's a fucking gas can in
the middle of the bedroom. Okay, in a minute in
the meantime. Oh and in the show, the guy, the

(22:13):
firefighter who found the gas can was like, well, he
picks it up, there's video of it, slashes it around,
and he's like, and my dad, who is the fire chief.
I turn around and say to him, wha look at
this And he says that my dad said throw it
out the window.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
But I knew that would be a bad idea, so
I left it. And then they just like moved on
to the next scene. And I was like, your.

Speaker 4 (22:31):
Dad should be fired because I know that'd be a
bad idea, so I call the fire investigators instead.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Throw it out the window.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
I'm sure that's there's a reason for that.

Speaker 5 (22:41):
As the daughter of a fireman, I would just like
to say, that's a classic fireman move, like get that
thing out of here.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
It's all very.

Speaker 4 (22:49):
Maybe he was like an ember's going to spark it again.
Maybe it was actually really smart and the sun was
kind of there.

Speaker 5 (22:54):
There might have been logic behind it, but there also
could have been that thing where like if you have
a parent who's a fireman, you know, like they will
not turn the heater on in the winter. Like there's
just a certain personality style.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
Where it's like it's all very.

Speaker 5 (23:07):
Like, I'll take care of this, throw it out the window.
We're just like, all right, I don't have to listen
to you anymore. Okay, that I could be wrong about
this guy.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
We're usually not.

Speaker 7 (23:19):
Often da da da da dah.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
Investigators are called at the scene.

Speaker 4 (23:23):
They initially and a lot of people still suspect that
Robin committed suicide in this manner, but by the next day,
and initially investigators said too. But by the next day
they brought in Karen, the mother, for questioning. She came
in voluntarily, didn't ask for a lawyer, so it wasn't
given her right Miranda rights.

Speaker 3 (23:40):
She was given a light.

Speaker 4 (23:41):
Detector test, which she was told she failed miserably. So
at this point investigators mentioned the gas can to her
and she tells them that it had been missing for
two weeks. This is like their family gas can. I
don't know if that's a thing in Michigan.

Speaker 5 (23:57):
It has its own chair and everything's get you live here,
you have family.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
Guess people here love gas.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
I missed that because I was talking so much. That
was funny.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
Thanks, thanks, jargon.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
So it had gone missing and there had been like
a fire, like a little bonfire looking thing. I'd start
in the backyard a couple weeks before the fire in
the house. So they were like, maybe the neighborhood boys
got it and we're starting, you know, we're just having
camping fires.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (24:27):
But as soon as she as soon as they said
to her there was a so there was a missing
gas can. Karen says, you didn't find it in her bedroom,
did you? But and that's one of the things that
like the prosecutors eventually like boom.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
But it's also like she she knows her daughter died
in a fire.

Speaker 4 (24:46):
She knows her as a misking gas can, and then
they say to her there was a missing gas She's.

Speaker 5 (24:50):
Like putting it together, worst case scenario.

Speaker 4 (24:51):
Right, So that is the obvious next step. So it's like, ah, frustrating, Okay,
after sixteen hours of an investigation, ten hours, I'm sorry, interrogation.

Speaker 3 (25:02):
Oh oh you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yes, she insisted she didn't know anything that happened. They
have all this video footage and the confession tapes.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
Her neighbor and friend.

Speaker 4 (25:11):
She went to church with him, she babysat his kids,
their kids went to school together, and we're friends.

Speaker 3 (25:16):
Chief only shows up to talk to her. He's the chief,
so she's like the police chief, the police chief.

Speaker 5 (25:24):
No, I thought maybe that fire chief could come back
and be like, you know what, take that lie detective machine,
throw it out the window.

Speaker 4 (25:30):
So at this point, it's like ten hours into the
investigation and she's starting to question herself and you can
see that she she's trying to help because she doesn't
understand what's going on.

Speaker 3 (25:38):
And the thing, the biggest thing.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
To her is that she trusts the lie detector tests
more than she trusts her own memory. Yeah, so she
starts saying things like, I don't think I did it.
I don't know if I don't think I did it,
And when he walks in the room in the video,
she goes, apparently I did it, and he goes why
and she says because of the lie detector test.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
So they're like, she.

Speaker 4 (25:56):
Did it, and we need her to confess, so they're
tarry getting her. She doesn't believe her own memory and
her fucking dot. She's grieving her daughter from the day
before died died. So they told her they found gas
on her shoes and clothes, which I still don't know

(26:19):
if it's true or not. They told her they have
her fingerprints on the gas can. They say to her,
gas can right, the fire started right when she left
the house, which is true. I mean, it's crazy how
quickly it started, but.

Speaker 5 (26:30):
That's also exactly when if a person wanted to start it,
they would wait till.

Speaker 4 (26:34):
She left the house right, and that her husband was
upset to thinking that maybe she knew more than she
was saying. So they're telling her this and then they
do the old if you did do it, how would
it have happened? Which is always the way to get
people to explain a scenario. Then they buy and she said,
I don't know, maybe maybe I dreamed it at some point,

(26:54):
And then they said, if you did dream it, how
would that have happened? Were you sleep walking or in
a dream state? How about your unconscious mind? And she
starts to believe that she did it by mistake, because
she says, there's no way she'd have done it on purpose,
so she has no idea. She says, maybe she had
gone into Robin's room that morning. Here's a scenario as
she slept to find the phone, saw the gas can.

(27:15):
Maybe she had slashed struck around to see was in there,
and then maybe had lit a candle in her room.

Speaker 5 (27:20):
Right, she's just trying to put something together.

Speaker 4 (27:22):
Yeah, here's the only scenario that if it was my fault,
here's how that would have happened. And then so they
find out that Karen and Robin had a strained, some say,
stormy relationship ever since Robin turned fourteen, which is like, Hi,
I was remember all the drug shit we were talking about,
I mean fourteen.

Speaker 5 (27:39):
Hi, she introduced me to the fourteen year old that
likes their mom, and I'll be like, hey, liar, what's up?

Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yeah, how's it going?

Speaker 4 (27:48):
Also like, and we've talked about this on the podcast.
From the Age as a latchkey kid from the age
of seven to fourteen, I played with fire in the
house constantly. That was kind of my pastime. That was
to light things on byron and see how it paper burned.
Or like, I once took tea in a paper towel
and I wanted to smoke it, and so I put

(28:08):
it on fire to smoke in front of them, and
it quickly caught on fire.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
You lit the bed on fire, with.

Speaker 5 (28:12):
The bed on fire when I was five, everyone knows it.
With her mom home, My mom was on the phone
and she didn't pay enough attention to me. So I
lit the bed on fire. It worked, It worked.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
We do what we must.

Speaker 5 (28:28):
We've got to smoke a tea cigarette tea paper towel cigarette.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
I believe it was camma meal.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
It's epic. Ew How did I know how to roll it?

Speaker 3 (28:36):
God? You know what I did? And I bet I
used tape on it too.

Speaker 4 (28:39):
Yeah, I bet I tried to smoke a taped paper
towel with loose tea inside of it, loose cama meal,
tea gota anything?

Speaker 5 (28:48):
Where were the parents?

Speaker 3 (28:51):
Okay? Can can mister O'Connell tell us, Jerry?

Speaker 5 (28:55):
What the fuck were you people doing in the eighties
when you weren't raising all of your children?

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (29:00):
Can you please?

Speaker 4 (29:01):
So they said that fourteen, she began to rebel and
hang out with a bad crowd. Karen admit to her
husband there were times that she hated Robin and that
Robin had treated her like shit, which, yeah, how many
times did.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
It having a teenager.

Speaker 4 (29:15):
It came out so Robin's diary was in the room
and not burned. So in the diary it turned out
that Robin wrote about having called child Protective Services on
her father because he threw a piece of metal at
her that didn't hit her in the head, but was
close to her head. And the night before the fire,
Wayne and Robin had gotten into a huge fight. So
the family was supposed to go I think the next

(29:37):
day or that weekend away for Memorial Weekend, and Robin
didn't want to go. She was supposed to start a
new job waitressing, so she wanted to come home early.
And they were having a huge fight over that, Like
who wants to go camping with your family when you're fourteen?

Speaker 6 (29:49):
Right?

Speaker 3 (29:50):
And so?

Speaker 5 (29:51):
Or do anything with your I mean stand near them.

Speaker 3 (29:53):
With them, yea.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
So she said that they'd gotten a huge fight and
that Wayne, the father, had kicked in the door, and
she wrote in her diary that she was scared.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
So they go to trial. Here we go John.

Speaker 5 (30:07):
Dee with the mother's admission, Like, based on that interrogation.

Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah, based on the confession.

Speaker 5 (30:13):
Do you know why they didn't look into the father?
And it was only the mother.

Speaker 4 (30:17):
So this guy John d han Ha, and he wrote
the fire investigation book. He wrote it the book used
in fire investigation, I wrote.

Speaker 5 (30:27):
He's the final word and fire investigation. What did they
say about throwing stuff out the window?

Speaker 4 (30:32):
Is there a chapter about did anyone read the book?

Speaker 3 (30:36):
Is what the question is?

Speaker 4 (30:37):
Well, he refers to it as the Bible of fire investigations.
And he's one of those characters that you and I
would be like that. I was like, oh, this guy,
you know what I mean. Because he does admit later
that he had to recount recant his expert testimony in
past cases, one of which because the data had changed,
where three children were killed in a fire and the

(30:58):
mother was charged with the murder based on his expert
witness testimony. Oh yeah, so there we go.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
Okay, so.

Speaker 4 (31:08):
They conclude, he concludes that the fire started. So here's
what they think. The fire started right outside the bedroom
in the hallway with the door almost closed. That Karen
had sprinkled gasoline all over the hallway, which was kind
of like a closed off, no window hallway like you know,
like the nineteen eighties of houses.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
Kinds of thing.

Speaker 4 (31:23):
Yeah, and that there was gasoline poured outside the door,
and then the gas can was left there. And so
what happened was in their mind that Robin woke up,
saw smoke so opened her bedroom door, at which time
the oxygen fueled the fire and it exploded in her face.
That was there saying because there was no there was
no gasoline. I don't know, okay, It's just like there's

(31:48):
so many sides to the story. David Smith is the
defense Arsen. The defense Arsen expert says there was no
gasoline spread in the hallway at all. There's no traces
of gasoline only in Robin's room, and that possibly Robin
had spread the gasoline intending to leave before it caught fire,
maybe to try to get out of going out of town,
or to get back at her family, or because she

(32:09):
was pissed off. But maybe that ignited from a candle
or a match, And there was a photo. There's like
matches all over her floor, like she lit candles and
incense and shit. As you do as a you meditate,
I tried to medic. I don't know what meditating was.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
As a rebellious team, you put the doors.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
On and you meditate, mom, Okay, Because they were Okay,
So here's what he said, and this is so fucked up.
So there were no burns on the underside of her chin,
and he says that matches someone leaning a right handed
person leaning forward and looking down because it protects here.

Speaker 5 (32:44):
And then basically it just went up into her face.

Speaker 3 (32:46):
That's what they're saying.

Speaker 4 (32:47):
Okay, maybe by the fumes, so that are in fire
dog Rohnda, fire dog m hm Ronda.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
Oh, I wish I had a photo of her. Fuck,
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
I bet she's a Dalmatian.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
She's not black lab.

Speaker 4 (33:01):
Yeah, I don't know if they do Dalmatians anymore. So
Ronda comes into the house.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
And she Ronda's a dog.

Speaker 4 (33:11):
Zero's in on an overturned chair in the in the
parents room, and that had traces of gasoline on it
that no one else, none of the fire investigators had
even noticed.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
So if the dog hadn't.

Speaker 4 (33:22):
Been in there, they wouldn't have that found that and
the other thing.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
It's so weird.

Speaker 4 (33:27):
Okay, so maybe Robin did accidentally do it, And that's
what I was thinking initially, But then I found out
that Robin was in her underwear, had no shoes on,
and I was thinking wouldn't she if she were planning
on lighting this fire, wouldn't she have packed a bag
including her.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
Diary that was found out like, she wouldn't have left up.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
She wouldn't have left it out right.

Speaker 4 (33:45):
We would have had a bag, a go bag as
they call it, and she would have had clothes on.

Speaker 3 (33:50):
So that's super weird.

Speaker 4 (33:52):
Also, during the polygraph test, Karen had admitted to having
a fair a few years prior the judge ruled it
in a missible. The jury had already heard it, so
that kind of gave them, you know, pause about her.
And then that turned Wayne against her, her husband, and
he testified that she had snapped and he sought a
divorce from her. During the trial, Karen was convicted of

(34:16):
first degree murder for setting the fire.

Speaker 6 (34:19):
WHOA.

Speaker 4 (34:19):
She was sentenced to life in prison without parole, and
a lot of the jurors said that what sold them
was that John d Hand, the fire investigator book writer,
was so like line by line of line of what
exactly happened and was so sure of everything that he
was saying that to them, it's he had a good story, right,
said his story was better. And the other dude, David Smith,

(34:42):
was like I'm not going to conclusively say anything because
you just nobody knows, and so because there were other
possibilities around her, they didn't believe him. Yeah, So, sentenced
to life in prison without parole.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
She has appealed the case to the point where she
has no more appeals left. Then she maintains her innocence
from prison. She's been there for fifteen years.

Speaker 4 (35:04):
She's sixty one years old now, and Kelly Lodenberg, who
created the confession tapes and directs all the episodes, she's
convinced that Karen didn't kill her daughter. The Innocence Project
reports that twenty eight percent of its three hundred and
fifty one clients who were convicted of crimes only to
be exonerated by DNA involved false confessions.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
I just don't know what happened, and it's driving me crazy.

Speaker 4 (35:28):
It's one of those Jean Vney things where it's like
there's a couple different things that make sense to me,
and none of them make sense all the way.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
Yeah, you can, you can kind of track any storyline. R.

Speaker 5 (35:37):
Yeah, and because you know, the fire expert reminds me
of that blood spatter guy from the staircase totally where
that guy is set, you know, was like the same
thing of talking very exacting and scientifically about this blood
spec only then a couple years later to have all
of that evidence get overturned because it's total bullshit and.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
He was making shit up.

Speaker 5 (35:59):
He was literally like making making up these theories about
blood Spider. None of it was actually scientifically proven. Well,
it's just so crazy that.

Speaker 4 (36:09):
I don't want to I have an idea of what
I think happened, or like what like two scenarios that
I think could have happened. But either way, it's like,
she's just reasonable doubt of these two these options that
were given in the trial.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
Maybe she's even if I don't I'm not convinced she
didn't do it.

Speaker 5 (36:27):
There's reasonable doubt.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
There's reasonable doubt. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (36:29):
And also the worst part is than considering the fact,
if she truly is innocent, she lost her child, she
lost her she just basically lost everything this insane circumstance.

Speaker 4 (36:40):
Oh you can wave that now. So that's the story
of Robin Booz.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Wow that's rough.

Speaker 5 (36:48):
Yeah, all right, Well my murder, my murderer. I'm going
to talk about a man named Lowell Amos here from Detroit,
most of the research from the story I'm about to
tell you I got from a website called the Malefactor's
Register and it was written by a guy named Mark Ribbon. Okay,

(37:10):
so I'm going to take you now back to December ninth,
nineteen ninety four. Fifty two year old former General Motors
plant manager Loyal Lowell Amos and his thirty seven year
old wife Roberta Maorori Amos are here in town attending
a company executive party at the Athenian Hotel and they
go back to their suite at twelve thirty and start

(37:33):
doing coke. This is a very coke based story.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
This episode is broughtcia by drugs.

Speaker 5 (37:41):
Remember that one on intervention where the guy was super
addicted to coke and he looked like a like a
sturfer like he was. He looked like he still had
it together. But he slept on the roofs of different
hotels that he snuck into. What again, I was sitting
there going, I'm going to do this someday, Like you
get one duvet and then you get like a chaise
lounge by the pool. He would sleep by the pool

(38:03):
and then when people from the hotel found him, he
looked legit enough, so he'd be like, I'm in room
before seventy three and they'd be like, sorry, sir.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
I just love sleeping under the stars in the water tower.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (38:16):
So they go back to their room to do coke
with a female friend, and this female friend later says
that when she left the Amoses room at four thirty,
as and match the conversations they were having in that
non smoking hotel room, that they were absolutely smoking in
the entire time.

Speaker 4 (38:35):
Whok is the worst because you just talked to people
you would never normally talk to.

Speaker 5 (38:39):
Yeah, and you try to start a band with them. Yeah,
it's insanity.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
All right.

Speaker 4 (38:45):
So she says, I absolutely see the face of like
a child at the front row. Sorry, on two drugs.

Speaker 5 (38:53):
It's probably a gorgeous older lady who uses really good lotions.
Don't worry about it. You don't know what you see.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (39:02):
So when this friend leaves, she later says that Roberta
seemed tired and groggy, like she had been drinking and
she was about to pass out, but that Lowell was
jumpy and talkative. So I had a lot of ideas
about restaurants. He wanted to start, you know, coke stuff.
Four hours later, at eight thirty am.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
An executive named Bert Crabtree.

Speaker 5 (39:27):
Oh classic, he's actually from mad Men, but he went
into this murder specifically Bert, what's up? So Bert gets
a panicked phone call from Lowell who's saying, you have
to come down to my room right now. He's freaking out.
So Bert gets another and I think these guys that

(39:47):
ended up being that they worked at this company that
Lowell Amos was associated with, because I was like, who
would do if somebody called my hotel room after a
party and was like, get down here, I'd be like,
or go fuck yourself. There's all these options because matter
I know the one I'm taking, like, are you out
of your mind?

Speaker 4 (40:06):
And the best possibility is he wants you to help
him clean the room.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Yeah, Like that sucks, that's yeah, and that's best case scenario.

Speaker 3 (40:12):
Best case scenario is fucking beer camp, get.

Speaker 5 (40:15):
Down here right now, and you're just like, I'll see
you at the breakfast buffet. I was like, I was
just at a crazy party, okay. So but Bert, being
the bird crab Tree that he is, goes down with
another employee or guest from that party named Daniel Porcossi,
and they go down to Amos's room, and when they

(40:36):
get there, Lowell tells them Roberta died in an accident
and he asked them for help cleaning up before the
police come, which again everything yeah, but also also aid
in a bet this crime that.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
May or may not have happened.

Speaker 5 (40:54):
So uh Amos tells them he had gone to sleep
and when he woke up later, Roberta was dead.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
But they're both chilled by the way he explains this.

Speaker 5 (41:05):
To him, because he says, he just says to them
very coldly, she's laying there in the other room, cold
as a mackerel.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
Oh, when mackerel's cold.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
I think they're quite cold when they come out of
this stream.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
Okay, yeah, it's a fish, that's what he Oh.

Speaker 5 (41:22):
I mean, they're not fish. Don't get that hot.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
He's guilty, get that as a red flag is saying
that is a stupid like that.

Speaker 5 (41:29):
So then Lowell Amos asks Daniel to take his sport
coat for him, and so He's like, sounds great, doesn't
question it, apparently, grabs it, throws it over.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
No, Dan, number Bert would never fucking do that.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (41:44):
Bert's like, I don't want your coat, I'm out of here.
I've got a big project due tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (41:51):
So, on his way driving home, Daniel Percossi looks inside
the breastpocket of the coat and he finds a small
black leather case, and inside the case there's a syringe
with no needle and a foul smelling.

Speaker 4 (42:04):
Washcloth, ew, foul smelling washcloth.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
Like you don't want to hear those.

Speaker 5 (42:10):
Words, no, no, and like in what way? Then I'm
just like this, could it be mold? There's nothing worse
when you go to wash your face and somebody had
left it on the ground, then put in the washer,
then left in the washer for two days, then put
it in the dryer, and you're like, sweet, it's every
kind of mold now on my face.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
And then there's also the thing of like a washcloth
that smells bad, and then a foul smelling washcloth just
sounds so much worse, sowl.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
Foul smelling.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
It smelled like the evil of men.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
Or maybe it smelled like ducks got it.

Speaker 5 (42:50):
Yes, it's a foul pond, right, yes, give it up
to her.

Speaker 4 (42:59):
I think I heard the first time that mister O'Connell laughed.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Dads, dad joke of all time.

Speaker 3 (43:07):
It really was.

Speaker 4 (43:08):
He was like, I hated this and now I'm on board, sweetie,
do more duck jokes.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
That's what I came here for.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
Why can't you talk about nice things? Why does he
have a Southern accent?

Speaker 3 (43:17):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (43:19):
Later on, Little.

Speaker 5 (43:20):
Amos took his coat back, and then after that the leather,
the small leather case and its contents disappeared.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (43:27):
When he's interviewed by police, Lil Amos explains he and
Roberta had engaged in sexual games involving cocaine. He claims
that she was still doing it when he fell asleep.
According to Kim, she couldn't snort coke because she had
a sinus problem, and that he said that she took
it inside her body and that's how that's the sexual

(43:50):
games part, is that she took coke through her vagina. Yes,
it's true. Somebody wooed for the vagina. That's very, very feminist.
But police are confused by this story because and as
we all are, because they'd been doing coke for four hours.
And he's like, and then I fell asleep. No you

(44:11):
fucking didn't, Yeah, no you did it. Yeah, you to
watch QBC before you would have fallen asleep, my friend,
it doesn't happen. Then if he did fall asleep when
Roberta started having seizures because she had, as he claimed,
odeide on coke, that would have woken him up probably,
But none of that happened. He was out like a light.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
Well, baby, don't wake the baby.

Speaker 5 (44:39):
And then when the room's process by crime scene investigators,
they find coke on the bed linen, including the part
that's tucked under the mattress.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
Yeah, so there's just like throwing it in the air.

Speaker 5 (44:51):
They're throwing it and snorting it in the air because
they're super rich. I don't know, they're like, it's a
raining coke everybody.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
It's truly snowing.

Speaker 5 (45:02):
But I think also the chucked under the mattress thing
is like they cleaned shit up and oh you knew that,
you knew that.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
Oh yeah, okay, it's more fun to think that.

Speaker 5 (45:10):
It's more fun to think people throw cocaine up in
the air to do it.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
It is now I want to do that really bad.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
They cut it really big.

Speaker 5 (45:20):
Yeah, like you're snorting your own ticker tape parade. Come on, Okay,
When the cops go to talk to Roberta's mother. Roberta's
mother's like, she does not do drugs, She's never done
drugs in her life.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
That's not her style. And the cops are like mm hmm.

Speaker 5 (45:37):
And but then when they the anonymous female friend that
did the coke with them for the first four hours,
her account of Roberta being groggy almost falling asleep is
not what people act like, as you may or may
not know when they're on cocaine. And they WATCHBC, that's right,
and they order and they order the order, and they

(45:59):
call again and say how much they like the necklace.
Who are the people that call to say how much
they like the necklace?

Speaker 3 (46:05):
What? Oh?

Speaker 4 (46:06):
Yeah, come on, we're joining a book club.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
On the line, how are you liking your necklace?

Speaker 1 (46:11):
Ladies? I love this necklace.

Speaker 5 (46:13):
It goes right on my clavicle and it is unlike
any necklace I've ever bought on television.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
Now, did your husband buy it for you for your mona?

Speaker 5 (46:22):
No?

Speaker 1 (46:22):
No, no, no, I'm on so much coke. I bought
up myself.

Speaker 5 (46:26):
I bought seven and I'm wearing all of them right now,
and I'm licking the phone also in addition, so they
all all of it smells bad to the cops. They're like,
this guy is dirty, and we know it.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
It smells what fowl it does? The cops are like,
I smell a duck.

Speaker 5 (46:54):
They're using the I smell a pig joke that's used
against them and they're using against somebody else because that's
how we make ourselves feel better.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
Yeah, quackshack.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Did you just say quack quack? Motherfucker?

Speaker 4 (47:06):
Yes, but I thought it quietly because I wasn't sure
because it's so stupid.

Speaker 5 (47:10):
Oh that's when you double down and say it loudly.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
I cut.

Speaker 4 (47:14):
I was gone, all right, you'll get there, Okay.

Speaker 5 (47:18):
I'm gonna have you doing like solid stand up sets
by the end of this tour.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Quack crack plack clack mobile fuckle. Okay.

Speaker 5 (47:28):
So they hate him. They're like, this guy's dirty. We
don't have any evidence to arrest him. We have to
put him under surveillance. Two days after his wife's death,
Lowell is seen having a one thousand dollars dinner with
two women that he later then has Minaja.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
Twat with two days after the death of.

Speaker 5 (47:48):
Forty eight hours and he's like, this grief is killing me.
I've got to eat and I got to fuck two
women and like immediately wow. So then robert Is autopsy
report comes back and the Wayne County Medical Examiner reports
that Roberta did have cocaine in her system, but the
problem was she had fifteen times the amount that's typically

(48:11):
seen in a cocaine overdose. Shit, she had so much
cocainer system that half of the drugs hadn't even been
broken down yet. There were also traces of cocaine found
inside her vagina, but none on her body externally. Also,
the bed sheets were slightly soiled, but her body was
perfectly clean. A forensic scientist, doctor Phyllis Good, found lipstick

(48:37):
and toothmarks.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
On a pillow case.

Speaker 5 (48:40):
What does that mean?

Speaker 3 (48:41):
What does that mean?

Speaker 1 (48:42):
That means someone fucking put a pillow over her face?

Speaker 3 (48:45):
Sorry, oh my god, but.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Roberta wasn't wearing makeup when the cops found her. And
all of this adds up.

Speaker 5 (48:55):
To this idea that her body was washed in between
the time that she.

Speaker 4 (49:01):
Say Burt and Dan didn't fucking help wash her body.

Speaker 5 (49:04):
I don't know, I'm not sure, okay, but these are
the theories where it's like there's nothing, there's nothing on.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
Her outside she's completely, very clean.

Speaker 5 (49:14):
So the police talked to Roberta's friends and find out
that she was afraid of Lowell and she was planning
to leave him because she knew he was seeing other women.
But they couldn't figure out a motive because he didn't
stand to gain anything financially from her death. So it
wasn't a clear cut case until they start looking into
Lowell Amos's past. Okay, right, It turns out this wasn't

(49:37):
the first time Lowell Amos was a widower. Uh huh.
Before Roberta, he had been married to a woman named
Carolyn Lawrence. They lived in Middletown and Indiana, and according
to their friends, Lowell and Carolyn, that's right, heads up Middletown.
According to friends, Lowell and Carolyn argued frequently about doing

(49:59):
the dish, about him not being home enough.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
No, she was mad at him.

Speaker 4 (50:04):
I thought you were telling me that those things, and
I was like, so the fuck what.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Dishes?

Speaker 5 (50:09):
I was doing a call in response and not letting
you answer me about doing the dishes.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
No, I didn't know.

Speaker 5 (50:16):
Yeah I was. I think I was right to skip it. Yeah,
she was mad at her husband because he kept taking
out huge life insurance policies on her.

Speaker 4 (50:27):
Yeah, that would piss me off.

Speaker 5 (50:31):
I mean, I think I'd get pretty mad about it.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
The fuck. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
So when he refuses to cancel them, she ends.

Speaker 5 (50:39):
Up kicking him out.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
Yeah, get away from me.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Good move. And that was in nineteen eighty seven.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
Province like, we actually can never take a life insurance.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Bust each other because I would just reread the fuck.

Speaker 4 (50:50):
Out even it's like legitimate, you're supposed to do that.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
Yeah, you have to according to your accountants.

Speaker 5 (50:54):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (50:55):
She's like, no, we can't.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
You'll never do it, poor guy.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
No, I'm terrified what if I do it.

Speaker 4 (51:02):
I want to say in front of everyone right now,
if Karen picks the life insurance follows the out on me,
it's not my signature. Okay, we'll see you guys all
have to testify at the trial.

Speaker 5 (51:11):
It's a pretty easy signature to afford. It is something
I've all seen it, Okay. So Carolyn kicks him out
of the house because of the insurance problem that you know,
that issue that you have with every boyfriend. So this
nineteen eighty seven, Lowell goes and moves in with a
seventy six year old mother, Mary tolls. A few weeks later,

(51:31):
Mary is brought into the emergency room. There's no diagnosis,
they send her home. Three days later, she dies. So
Lowell calls Carolyn and is like, my mother died. So
she comes over to the house, his mother's house, to
go see him, and she finds him throwing all of
his belongings into a car, and when she asks someon
what he's doing, he says, I don't want anybody to

(51:52):
know that I moved into my mother's house.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
And she's like, that's what you're worried about, right, Yeah,
that was his main concern.

Speaker 5 (51:58):
See, he didn't want to seem like a nerd.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
So she lets him move back in with her.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
Yes, I mean so.

Speaker 5 (52:08):
Because his mother, Mary was seventy six years old, no
autopsy has performed on her, and the authorities presume that
she died of natural causes. Therefore Lowell inherits more than
a million dollars more than a million, how the fuck?
So nine months later, Caroline Amos is found dead in
her bathroom. Lowell's statement to the police is that he

(52:32):
had taken her a glassful of wine to the bathroom
where she was blow drying her hair next to a.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Full bathtub of water.

Speaker 5 (52:43):
Okay, I mean, go on, We've all seen the sticker
on the blow dryer over all of our lives. I
feel like all of our lives, we stared at that sticker.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
And we've looked at the sticker and said, who the
fuck would blow.

Speaker 5 (52:54):
Dry their hair in the bathtub or near a bathtub
full of water?

Speaker 3 (52:58):
It's stupid.

Speaker 5 (52:59):
Well, apparently he's claiming that she did the one thing
that's like, that's like flushing a feminine hygiene product down
the toilet. No one does it anymore. We've seen the signs,
oh god it three people let me here.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
Are like, fuck, wait what I'm not supposed to be.

Speaker 5 (53:16):
I didn't know there's a speaker in the bathroom, and
a girl's like what.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
She starts crying.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (53:26):
So so later Lowell stayed to the police. He finds
her dead in the bath apparently electrocuted, and no cause
of death is ever ever determined. And the wine glass
that he claimed to have brought up to her was.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
Not in the bathroom.

Speaker 5 (53:42):
It was down in the dishwasher, the dishwasher having been
run so it was perfectly clean, with not a trace
of anything on it. Lowell received eight hundred thousand dollars
from her insurance policy.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
Yes.

Speaker 5 (53:56):
So then in an m night Shyamalan style twists even further.
It turns out that Carolyn started out as Amos's mistress.
He had been cheating on his first wife, Sondra, with Carolyn.
Holy shit. But in nineteen seventy nine, Sondra was found

(54:18):
dead in her bathroom. Stop it, I can't, there's more papers.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (54:27):
So they lived in Anderson, Indiana, and a neighbor this
year the same lady from before, but fucking cheering for cities.
I don't mean it. So they had a neighbor when
they lived in Anderson named Connie Alexander, and she told
police that on the night of Sandra's death, Sondra was

(54:47):
at her house. They were drinking beer together, chatting, and
Sondra went home around eleven and then a few hours
later there's a knock at the door. Scared and answers it.
It's Sondra's little children and they say something's wrong with mommy.
And the ambulance is stuck in the snow. So Connie's

(55:11):
husband runs out, helps dig the ambulance out of the
snow and.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
They they take Sondra to the hospital, but she dies.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
What the fuck?

Speaker 5 (55:21):
So when Connie hears that she died or was dead,
she goes over to Lowell's house to check in on him,
and she finds him burning something in the fireplace, but she.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Doesn't know what it is.

Speaker 5 (55:35):
Lowell statements of the police at the time was that
Sondra had mixed wine with a sedative, collapsed and hit
her head in the bathroom. The cause of her death
was ruled in determinate and Amos received a three hundred
and fifty thousand dollars insurance payout Jesus and then almost
immediately same year, he marries Carolyn Woa. So. On November eighth,

(55:58):
nineteen ninety six, Lowell Amos was arrested for the murder
of Roberta. Due to a nineteen ninety four change in
Michigan law, the prosecution was allowed to enter all of
these previous facts about his life and his murder was
so amazing, thank God, so they could introduce all those

(56:18):
facts into trial. Prosecutors also argued that although Loll lacked
a financial motive for killing Roberta as he had for
his other three wives, his I mean, his two wives
and his mother, his fucking own mother.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
His marriage was about to end.

Speaker 5 (56:35):
Roberta actually had already bought her own house, and she
had told family and friends that she wanted loll out
of her life, and the prosecution theorized that he killed
her because he could not stand that rejection. He was
always the one that was making the women go away.
He was always the one that was in charge of that.
And the fact that somebody was leaving him and had
already you know, taken off, they theorized that he couldn't

(56:58):
handle that. They said that he first gave her a
glass of wine with two crushed sedatives in it, which
is reflective of that woman's own story, that she seemed groggy,
and then when she passed out, he injected her vagina
with the cocaine dissolved in water whoa, and then smothered
her with a pillow when she began to convulse. On

(57:20):
October twenty fourth, nineteen ninety six, Little Amos was convicted
of premeditated murder and murder using a toxic substance. On
November fourth, nineteen ninety six, he was sentenced to life
in prison without the possibility of parole. When his sentence

(57:41):
was read he said to the judge, who was apparently
a little bit young. If you can imagine the fucking
brass balls on this guy. He says to the judge,
you're a young judge. I hope this is the first
time and the last time you have to sentence an
innocent man.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
I what a dick.

Speaker 5 (58:00):
But Judge Jeffrey Collins was unmoved, is what this article said.
He described Amos as a dangerous killer without a conscience,
and he was quoted as saying, thank God for the
safety of our community. You will be locked up for
the rest of your natural days.

Speaker 3 (58:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (58:17):
No charges were ever brought in the cases of Mary Tolls,
Carolyn Lawrence, or Sandra Hurd. And if you want to
see a dramatized version of the story, I just told
you there. It was the subject of a two thousand
and six Lifetime movie called Black Widower.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
That's a little amus, everybody.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
Wow, that's job.

Speaker 5 (58:42):
If he's talking about and sure, and that's a red flag.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
Look out.

Speaker 5 (58:48):
If he keeps on handing you glasses of wine with
white shit in it, that's a red flag. There's no
tune to this song. I'm just I'm working. I am
propping it the.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
Mortar and pestle is always in the dishwasher.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
That's a bit.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
That's a red flag right there. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
If he kills his mother, that's a red flag.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
This is true. This is true.

Speaker 5 (59:14):
Hey, it's not for a hometown murder.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
All right.

Speaker 4 (59:20):
Then, in a very special moment, I get up check.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
It's so fun to see you all.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
Listen. I got to pick someone. This doesn't happen a lot.

Speaker 5 (59:29):
I wanted this better be good a certain kind of way.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
Sorry, behind it, yeah, yeah, to be concise.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
No no, no, no, wait, but maybe both of you?
Yeah yeah, sorry, yes, yes? Over here? Over here?

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Did you say by seven people this way?

Speaker 3 (59:49):
Yeah? No, no way, No, her, are you ever doing
this again?

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Sorry?

Speaker 3 (59:58):
This is why I don't do this.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
I'm gonna hug her after the show.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Hi?

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Hi, Hi, what's your name?

Speaker 5 (01:00:11):
Hi?

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Crystal? Here all over here, Crystal, you have to take
center stage?

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
Come out here there, fabulous pants? Hi?

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Hi? Hi Crystal? Where are you from?

Speaker 7 (01:00:23):
I'm from Detroit?

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
Yeah, hometown?

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
What's up?

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
Shut us on the thing where the pants?

Speaker 3 (01:00:34):
Yep, that's where Ben's always points. Stay down there. Okay, God, everyone.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
Knows you are here, you are here here.

Speaker 3 (01:00:42):
Okay, okay, okay, what's your hometown. So this is a
family murder.

Speaker 5 (01:00:46):
Oh wow, she goes, I know.

Speaker 6 (01:00:52):
Okay.

Speaker 9 (01:00:53):
So it's two murders over two years. Well several murders
whatever the case.

Speaker 5 (01:01:00):
Were several. I thought you said seven.

Speaker 7 (01:01:02):
So it starts with one year.

Speaker 6 (01:01:04):
My cousin on his birthday.

Speaker 9 (01:01:06):
He's like an amazing artist whatever, he's celebrating, it's amazing.

Speaker 7 (01:01:11):
And then my cousin, who's.

Speaker 9 (01:01:12):
A police officer, gets a call like, oh, there's a
body in the river.

Speaker 6 (01:01:18):
And she goes investigates. They pulled the body out. It's
my cousin.

Speaker 5 (01:01:24):
Wait, so the so the police officer is my cousin
and then had to pull that own cousin is our soul,
our cousin.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
Sorry, in your police officer cousin is a woman. Yes,
that's awesome.

Speaker 5 (01:01:35):
Okay, yes, that's just that's exciting. Yes, that's exciting. Yes
that is, but also this is horrible okay sorry.

Speaker 6 (01:01:41):
Yes, So they pull him out. They don't know what
fucking happened. He's dead. It's awful.

Speaker 7 (01:01:48):
His roommate was with him. He's like, they're like, what happened.

Speaker 9 (01:01:51):
He's like, we were drinking and then he's like, I
want to hang out by myself.

Speaker 6 (01:01:56):
So he leaves and then he's dead.

Speaker 5 (01:01:58):
So we're like, oh, no, no.

Speaker 6 (01:02:01):
It seems sketchy. Whatever the case.

Speaker 9 (01:02:04):
My uncle his dad is like, you know what, it's hard.
I don't want to fuck with it. Just let's move on.
The Next year, my cousin, his brother of the dead person,
he's going to college, he's getting.

Speaker 6 (01:02:18):
His master's degree. He's in Atlanta. He comes back. He's like,
this is weird.

Speaker 7 (01:02:23):
Whatever the case.

Speaker 9 (01:02:24):
He does whatever he needs to do. He gets CCW
for some random reason. But what's a concealed weapons license? Oh?

Speaker 5 (01:02:34):
When you say that, he says, this is weird, Like
his life was weird for him.

Speaker 9 (01:02:38):
No, he wanted my uncle to investigate what happened.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Got it with his brother, okay.

Speaker 6 (01:02:44):
But my uncle was like, I'm sad my son ya.
He just wants to I just want to move on.
It's over.

Speaker 9 (01:02:50):
I don't want to investigate anymore. So my cousin's like whatever.
So years later I met this party. Not years later,
a year later, I met a party randomly for someone
I don't know that's near the hear nor there was
it fun.

Speaker 7 (01:03:06):
It was fun. It was a surprise party for somebody
I didn't know.

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):
They're like, surprise, I'm here and I don't know.

Speaker 7 (01:03:14):
What's kind of My friend's like, oh, we're having a party,
but only four people are here. Can you come?

Speaker 5 (01:03:18):
No?

Speaker 6 (01:03:19):
It was free drinks and food.

Speaker 7 (01:03:21):
Yeah, I came, so.

Speaker 5 (01:03:23):
Anyway, so I came.

Speaker 7 (01:03:26):
It was fun.

Speaker 9 (01:03:26):
We had drinks and I'm leaving and my aunt caused
and she's like, hey, what are you doing?

Speaker 6 (01:03:31):
And I'm like, I'm driving to a date. She's like, well,
can you pull over? And I'm like, what do you mean.
She's like no, seriously, pull over. So I pull over.

Speaker 9 (01:03:40):
Turns out my other cousin, the brother of the person
who died the year before. That morning, it's a Sunday,
it's three days after Thanksgiving. He goes to the neighbor's house.
He's like, knocks on the door. The neighbor wife answers.
She's like what's going on. He's like, hey, turn that
music down. She's like, we're not playing any music. He's like, yes,

(01:04:02):
you are. So she's like no, I'm not. She goes
to get her husband. Her husband comes back. My cousin
shoots the husband.

Speaker 6 (01:04:10):
Oh damn. On the front porch. So then he goes
back into their house.

Speaker 4 (01:04:16):
And he shoots my uncle, the uncle who didn't want
to investigate, the uncle.

Speaker 6 (01:04:22):
Who didn't want to investigate his father.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
His father.

Speaker 9 (01:04:24):
His father kills him, So the wife obviously calls the police.

Speaker 6 (01:04:28):
My cousin goes into the basement.

Speaker 9 (01:04:30):
They're going to standoff with the police that were ours,
and then my cousin kills himself.

Speaker 6 (01:04:37):
It's fucking awful.

Speaker 9 (01:04:38):
So my cousin, my aunt's telling me this on the
phone while I'm on the way to a date with
this dude.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
Day canceled.

Speaker 7 (01:04:47):
No, the day wasn't canceled.

Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
Damn, Carol's down her hair.

Speaker 7 (01:05:02):
I really needed a drink.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Okay, that's fair.

Speaker 7 (01:05:06):
I'm not married.

Speaker 5 (01:05:06):
I'm okay, Oh my god, Okay.

Speaker 9 (01:05:11):
It was the summer of Stephens, not that Stephens. I
dated an old Stephen, a married Steve.

Speaker 7 (01:05:18):
A young Stephen.

Speaker 9 (01:05:20):
And then the third Stephen that I was going on
the date with I found out that night was fucking married.

Speaker 5 (01:05:25):
Holy was it Friday the thirteenth?

Speaker 6 (01:05:32):
It was Thanksgiving?

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
Is there investigation into the first cousin or is.

Speaker 7 (01:05:35):
It just we never really figured out what happened?

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
He just I'm so sorry.

Speaker 6 (01:05:40):
Yeah, it was really sad. Yeah, I broke up with
that Stephen.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
To make worse.

Speaker 7 (01:05:49):
So that part was good.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
I mean that was very healthy, it was, and we
commend you for that.

Speaker 5 (01:05:54):
Yeah, what's still re lining this ship?

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
Yeah, I mean that's amazing. That's amazing.

Speaker 5 (01:06:07):
Oh my god, I mean right, I'll yeah, you don't
get to keep that. That's not your prize for having
a good hometown.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
Murder Crystal.

Speaker 5 (01:06:16):
I want to.

Speaker 4 (01:06:16):
Apologize, my God for the fact that I clearly have
a pointing issue. And just this is how I point
in one person and I apologize to the wonderful ladies.
I point I clearly pointed.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
At No, that was a great pick.

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
You nailed thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
Then you nailed it great too.

Speaker 5 (01:06:32):
Oh my god, Detroit, these we just got to do
two amazing shows with you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
Thank you so much. Thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:06:39):
It's ridiculous that we get to do this at all.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
We have the best time.

Speaker 5 (01:06:44):
It's so fun, and it's because you guys support us
so much.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
Thank you. We really really love each and every one
of you.

Speaker 5 (01:06:52):
What the fuck I'm saying some thanks for coming, Thanks
for waiting in that long line, potentially in the rain.
It was raining for five minutes.

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):
Thank you guys for coming again. Fucking Minton Murderinos. You
guys are awesome.

Speaker 5 (01:07:03):
You're amazing. Thank you for the thanks you guys, stay
sexy and.

Speaker 8 (01:07:13):
Bye.

Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
Thank you,
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Georgia Hardstark

Georgia Hardstark

Karen Kilgariff

Karen Kilgariff

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Dateline NBC

Dateline NBC

Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com

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