261 - What's Cookin'?

On this week’s episode, Karen and Georgia cover the life of Eugene Bullard.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Everybody, settle down, settle down, l Hello, and welcome to.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
My favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstark, that's Karen Kilgara. We're
here to tell you a couple things. Yeah, and then
we'll get out of your hair.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
I'm just gonna jump in real quick, and then then then.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Quick two hour and fifteen minute podcasts, real quick about
a bunch of stuff that it may or may not
be accurate. But then we'll come from the heart hair
and then's just jump right back.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
Out of the house, right we won't. We're not here
to bug you.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
How's your hair doing here in the month fourteen of COVID.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
Well, I actually just use the product by one of
our sponsors. And I'm not going to say which fun
because it's gonna sound like I'm fucking doing an ad.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
But is it fucked smells so good and we love it.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
This is terrible. We can't start off with a fake.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Yeah, we can't Stephen bleep all this out. We just
two a minute bleep. Yeah, the vinegar one.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
No, it's like the conditioner conditioner, so it's doing better.
But yeah, it's the heat. I feel like I've been
having the heat on in the house lately because I
run fucking freezing.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Turns out, sure it's freezing here.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
It's so cold here in LA when it drops down
to seventy one.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
Cannot take it literally people are shoveling feet of snow
and they're dry.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
That's not on us. I mean, moved to La everyone else's.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
We did not cause this global warming that.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
I find have at it. We didn't. We definitely didn't
take away any global warming.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Look, we can't say we didn't use a fuck ton
of Aquinette all throughout the late eighties early nineties.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
Oh I and I had the acone on my phone head,
the little white heads on my forehead to prove it.
Remember those just hair pray spraying your bangs up, but
of course you get your forehead at the same time.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Oh yeah. I Actually I had a look senior year,
which was eighty eight. Not complimentary to my face or anything,
but it was like I thought it was being modern
or something. So it was it was like I had
like a long bob and then I wore it up
in a clip and I hair sprayed everything up and back,

(02:31):
so it was like my bangs were going up and back.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
I did that, and I think in the late nineties
that came back because I was like, all about that,
we have to let's find photos and put those on
the Instagram because nah, compare no, we well think, let's
find draw a little picture, let's take a stop a
photo of that kind of hairstyle so everyone knows what
we're talking about, and then put our face yours.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
You could do yours, and then someone could photoshop. It
was very your hair, because it's I meant it, And
that's what hurts me so bad. When I look back,
I was like, God, this, I thought this was such
a good idea, all of it. Thought it was the
height of fashion.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
You know what I did is like the chunky belt
for no reason around like my like that, like the
white belt in the early two thousands, that was just
like a belt sitting on my waist or my hips.
Sure it wasn't holding anything up. In fact, it was
probably tugging my skirt down a little bit for the theft.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
Probably well, in the mid eighties, that look you would
do over a cable net sweater, which defied logic. And
always it was like in the eighties we were bulking
up in every possible way. It was just like shoulder pads,
man shoulder pads, huge cablenet sweaters that like went over
your butt right above your knees. Then you'd belt it

(03:47):
with a gigantic oversized belt. It was the strangest, like, yeah,
it was sweet.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
I think we were all like, like they were crop dusting,
the government was crop dusting at the time, and just
kind of fucking with our.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Brain putting these ideas into her head.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yeah, they're like, we're going to give you some really
good throwback Thursday fodder.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
That was your whole point is that they knew Isprey
is not a real company. We're just trying to humiliate
you in the future.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
Chunky socks don't make your cats actually look good, and
three layers of different chunky socks, especially.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Chunky socks over white stirrup pants. Ever ever gone to that?
I mean, unless you were an equestrian, stirrup pants.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
Didn't fucking look good on you, like hi too, So
they would have just would have just chaped right off
if you tried to ride a horse with them, which
they weren't.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
You were just sitting in home room. There's no reason
to be wearing stirrup pants at all.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
Is there ever any reason to be wearing stirrup pants,
unless you were on top of a horse.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
Unless you read Sassy magazine so many times you just
felt compelled. Mm, so unfair. What a horrible time.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
Isn't it?

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Keep going, isn't I thought you were going to say,
what's cooking?

Speaker 3 (05:03):
So it's cooking? Good looking?

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, I think I'm in the Like a little while ago,
I read on you know, social media or whatever, there's
a bunch of people talking about I think I've hit
a wall, and I was like, shut up. Truly, the
last couple of days, I was just like, I don't
know longer I can do here. It is?

Speaker 3 (05:22):
What season of quarantine are you in right now?

Speaker 1 (05:24):
In your the season of the Witch for sure, where
it's like I'm doing a lot of weird yea psychdelic
dancing and staring at the ceilor.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Have you gotten to the so like crystals and praying
is there going to be a full moon? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
I talked about this on our new the new addition
to the Exactly Right Media podcast Corral Lady to Lady.
I've become strangely obsessed with my horoscope in a way
that is that I don't understand and I'm the one
doing it. It's really weird, like get up in the
middle of the night and check it.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
Is it teaching you a thing about yourself or like
opening The good.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Thing is there's so many good horoscope people. I'm not
sure what the actual term is, kind of like you know,
there's I guess account yeah, readers and accounts on Twitter.
If you get into horoscope Twitter, there are some brilliant people,
really cool like giving good advice, just good overall things
where it's like, well, right now, we're in this Aquarius season,

(06:26):
so it's everything's a little weird and you need.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
To worry things you say, Yeah, I really like the
hilarious mean, hilariously mean ones that are like sure this
and nobody likes you.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
You should like sorrowscopes. Thing followed sorrowscopes on Twitter is hilarious.
Mind Sure, I'm not.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
I'll never seek my horoscope out, but if I see
a horoscope thing somewhere, I'll definitely read it. It's I
think it's fun.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
Just really quick. The funny thing to me is that
the avatar for sorrow Scopes and the bio just says
things are terrible, and the avatar is Julie Andrews and
the sound of music spinning on the on the mountain
love it. So it's really funny. Gemini. We connected the

(07:12):
stars in your chart and it looks remarkably like a
middle finger, and mine is Taurus. The stars have swiped
left on your love.

Speaker 3 (07:21):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
The very true souroscopes. Yeah, fucking asshole.

Speaker 3 (07:26):
I love it. And they have to come up with
those daily. That's like impressive. Whoever's doing those, Bravo.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
They're enjoying it.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
I bet they're getting a lot of like rage out, yeah,
which I have right. I did recently. I was in
the car alone for the first time in like a year,
and I started just yelling. And then I told my
therapist like I got really angry and I had rage
yesterday and like I'm worried about it. And she's like, no,
that's good, Georgia, it's good. And I was like, oh shit,

(07:56):
here supposed to feel things. Absolutely rage. I've been crying
like crazy lately. Yeah, yeah, it's good. Get it out,
It's I get it out. Effectstore is great when you
just need a block, you're just too emotional and you
just need a break. And I got off of it
and so now it's like, oh, I'm ready to I'm

(08:18):
doing therapy twice a week. I'm ready to deal with
the emotions.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Good.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
But I'm so used to being like, well, I should
up my meds. This isn't normal, Like I feel too
many things, feeling things like bad, I'm kind of depressed.
That's not good. And it's like, no, that can be
unless you're in bed all day. You know from your depression.
This can be good.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Also, it's you you can get into the practice. And
this is I am absolutely saying. This is a person
who has to, first of all, go to therapy three
times a week, and my therapist has to remind me
of this every single time and has for fourteen years. Yeah,
but it's that we don't have to quote unquote control

(08:55):
our feelings. They're going to be there no matter what
we do. There's no getting away from it.

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Even if you put ohmysticals over them, they're still they're
still there in there festering, which is worse.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
They're accumulating the fuck They're just gonna wait.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
That backseat of the car full trash, it's just gonna
fill up.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
So you might as well, and you can get the
practice of this what's happening to me right now happens
every single person and the practices. Let them come through, observe, allow,
and don't make any decisions about like yourself or what
you should be doing. No, no sudden moves. As those
feelings come and go if possible, it's not always possible,
And then and and then later on, decide what those

(09:35):
feelings were a little indicator.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
For ah, like where were you in that moment? Really
like what it is?

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, instead of like criticizing, I feel so jealous, Well
then I must be jealous and that means I must
love that person and hate that person.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
No, No, jealousy is like it's just going like, oh,
you must feel a lack of something.

Speaker 3 (09:54):
It's a mirrors of your life back on you really jealousy.
Oh oh it's.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
All mirror work. It's all air work.

Speaker 3 (10:01):
We're in a fucking fun house of mirrors and stuck inside.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, it's like, I hate the feelings just keep coming.

Speaker 3 (10:11):
I hate amaze. I hate amaze, amaze. I love being amazed,
but being in a maze, even a corn maze, their
fun corn corn maze. No, that sounds like claustrophobia city
to me. I mean, I can't even go in fucking
dressing rooms, so I feel like a corn myth. Do

(10:31):
you know that?

Speaker 1 (10:31):
So a dressing room made of corn.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
If you made me change in that fucking corn maze,
I would lose my shit. No, I legit.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Wear like un take off your dress really quick.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
I wear your clothes so that I can go to
like a weird corner of a store with the weird
mirror that no one's around. And just like I'm not
flashing anyone. I'm just I just can't go in a
fucking dressing room. They stress me out. Huh too small?
Is that the situation? I think I have a little klaustrophobia. Yeah,
and I'm special a lot.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
You know of this. I have clusters.

Speaker 3 (11:05):
Oh that reminds me speaking of not being special, but
in a really good way. I listen to I know
I mentioned this podcast a lot, but it's because it's
like changed my life. Is the cure for chronic pain,
which you don't have to have chronic pain.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
But it helps. That's the mod that's the motto.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
Have chronic pain, but cha. What the point is that
chronic pain is just you holding trauma and and like
how we say, like, what we're just talking about is
holding instead of having rage. And if you don't let
that rage out, if you don't let that sorrow out,
if don't let that trauma out, it's gonna turn into
back pain. It's going to I'm not explaining.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
This well, but no, no, I think it's quite clear.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, so the issues is in the tissues. As they say,
there was an episode. It's a thing that's for people
with chronic like who have chronic pain, is that you're
keeping your issues in your.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
You got to make I think that's a bumper sticker.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
Okay. This is this is episode one twelve of The
Cure for Chronic Pain. And this this listener called in
and was like wrote in and was like, here's my situation,
and who's the woman who's the host who has now
become my friend, Nicole sachs.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Is.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
It's an incredible episode of how how to heal trauma.
And this woman had like fibermyalgia and she cured her
pain and then suddenly was left with the actual emotions
from her traumatic childhood. And essentially what it is is
like you're not special, you know, like you're not any
you feel alone in your trauma. You're not. And that's

(12:47):
what like alan On is for which I plan on
going to and I don't know. It's just a really
great episode one twelve.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah that's great. Yeah, yeah, well that is very true.
And it's also I think a lot of people, uh
really go way the fuck out of the way to
not feel pain that they're afraid to feel. And that
was I think we've talked about that before, my therapist
Love saying it already happened, you actually already survived. You
survived the hard part. It's your mind telling you no

(13:15):
time has passed, you haven't grown, You're not an adult.
You can't handle it.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
You're still you're still in danger.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
Right and you're and you're and you have to truly
sit there with yourself allow those feelings and go is
my life being threatened?

Speaker 3 (13:28):
No?

Speaker 1 (13:29):
Am? I can I take care of myself?

Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Have I gotten myself here? Yes? Like let it come
on through. How long have you ever cried? Three days? Eat,
no big deals.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
I thought you were gonna say three minutes, and I
was like, yes, that's that's the longest time I've ever cried.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
No, you do a long weekend of weeping.

Speaker 3 (13:48):
It's almost though, like and this is gonna sound sappy,
like Elvis has given me another gift, and that I've
been crying over miss missing him and what he meant
to me a lot. But it's like a healing cry,
you know. And that's been and then I get a hug,
a puppy, a cookie puppy while it's happening. So it's

(14:10):
just a yeah, it's like as much as it hurts
and it's hard, it's like another gift.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Well, also, you're that's just real life, like you're in
the game here when you're doing stuff like that and
actually feeling it. It's like I remember you saying when
I very first met you, Felvis dies, I'm going to die.
And then I was just like shit, I already started
this podcast with her. That was a bit extreme. Really,

(14:35):
I know, no, no, I'm making fun of you. But no, no, no,
I knew, I knew. I knew what you were trying
to tell me was this is like because because it
was when he was starting to go to the event
all the time, it's being that I know that you
are like pre stressing, and that's what we do to ourselves.
I do it too, we all do it. Where you
you look at the thing and you go, I can't
lose this. If I if I lose this, ABC, D

(14:58):
and E and F will happen to Yeah, which is
you telling yourself scary stories because you think it's going
to help you control the world, right, and it doesn't.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
And I did have, you know, my old therapist who
ended up actually taking her life. So that was like
what she told me, which I don't think she maybe
under herself didn't understand, was what you've survived all these
other things since then? Why because you have tenacity and
by the end, when you actually get there, you just

(15:27):
deal with it and you're able to deal with it.
And I think it was a thing of like, well,
what I told of this is I need sixteen years.
So back then at eleven years, I couldn't have handled it.
You know, it was too soon. Sixteen years is a
gift for a cat's life or an animal's life. And
so I got through it.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, And you he gave you enough time, and then
you kind of got to the thing and starting to
my therapist about this morning is it's like when you
have a thing that means a law to you that
you can tell you have to let go of or
you owe an idea of a thing, an idea of
a person that you kind of have to let go
of that it served you. The idea of this person

(16:07):
served you for a little while, but you realizing holding
onto it as this thing it actually isn't is not
serving you.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, So allowing the other thing to have its own
to be its own being and to be what it
is going to be and you have no control and
that's big and scary.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
Well, my point is that basically on your side of things,
letting go of that, you don't just let go of
it and like drop it and whatever I said. It's
kind of like it feels to me like that thing
in Raiders the Lost Arc where you have to replace
the idol with the bag of sand. You have to
like basically ease off this thing slowly and then have

(16:46):
something else better than a bag of sand to replace
it with so that that, you know, so that little
pedestal doesn't drop into the ground and release the giant boulder.
So you kind of have like you have to go
easy on yourself because you needed that thing for a reason,
You projected onto that thing for a reason, whatever your situation. Yeah,

(17:06):
you have to give yourself kind of like the love
to go. Okay, you just need something that's fine, figure
something else out.

Speaker 3 (17:15):
Well, I think that's something for me now is just gratitude,
which I think is.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
A good place.

Speaker 3 (17:21):
I'm not good at it, but I'm striving to make
a gratitude, you know. I'm like constantly that it's gratitude,
that it's gratitude. That's like, and there's a reason that
you're going through the shit you're going. No, there's not.
There's no reason. It's all fucking crazy. You know, this
world has no point and no meaning. So the best
thing you can do is like is take care of yourself,

(17:43):
and gratitude is a really great way to do that,
you know.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
And there's no meaning if you're focusing on gratitude. There's
plenty of meaning because the meaning is what you give it. Yeah,
it doesn't have to be some kind of like God's
over here handing you a bunch of like a cornicopia fruit, right,
It's just ran of shit that you can give meaning
too by going I appreciate that this random set of
circumstances happened to me.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah, Like it's just a hard thing to get to
and there's a lot of grief to dig out, dig
yourself out. And I'm not talking about myself with a cat,
talking about people who lose children and people who go
through monumental trauma and and don't see an end to it.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
You know, well, sure, sure, that's but that I think
that's like, that's what I'm saying, monumental trauma is it
is like the price of admission.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
That's what we're here for, never going to escape it.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, and it's and contextually, yes, there are people who
have loss that we can't believe. That's what this podcast
is about, telling stories of loss that you can't believe.
But contextually, we experience similar things in smaller ways, but
to us in similar ways. Yes, So it is the

(18:59):
kind of where you can't, you know, you can't get
into a habit of comparing trauma because there's because the
context means it's all big to the person that it's
happening to. If there's nothing bigger happening, you know, you
can't don't dismiss your experiences by going, oh, but this,
there's this other thing and it's way worse. Right, It's

(19:21):
just like, hey, it's bad for everybody. It's bad for everybody.
In lots of fucking ways. It really is seems clasping,
it really is. Amen. Wait, let me cap that with
something nice.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
I wish you would.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Okay, So here's something nice that'll that'll cap this off,
just for talking about gratitude, talking about whatever, because I
think we don't get I forget this part of things,
of what we're doing. So this was a This was
a piece of mail that got dropped off along along
with the bunch of other mail because we don't pick
up our mail very office anymore. Here and quarantine. Oh,

(19:59):
we're all on our little weird islands. So I opened
this box and there was a car. There's beautiful things
in it, and there's two of everything. So you've got
some cool shit coming your way. I love it, love presence,
all right. And I opened this card and it says
Karen and Georgia, I want to thank you for literally
changing my life. After your shout out of this is
actually happening. In August, my audience quadrupled overnight. After eight

(20:24):
years producing this little show by myself with a micros
uh huh, with a microphone, a walk in closet and
a vision, you've allowed me to do the impossible quit
my job, become become a Wondery original, and devote myself
full time to my true passion, fulfilling a decade long

(20:45):
dream I never thought would come true at a time
when everything was in flux. You can't imagine how much
this is meant to me. Here is a very small
token of my appreciation for your generous words and your
pioneering talent with overwhelming attitude. Thank you, Wit. Oh, that's
the host, Wit whistled. I'm the host of this is

(21:05):
Actually Happening podcast. Some very fancy drinking chocolates and fancy
biscuit things. It's like a little gourmet box, and then
some real cute this is actually happening stickers love it.
I love that, so I don't Wit. I hope you're
not offended that I just read that out loud. But really,

(21:26):
I opened it last night and then just laid on
the bed staring at it because it made me so happy.
I thought it was so so nice.

Speaker 3 (21:32):
Well, his being offended about you reading it will then
equal and cancel out our offense that it's not unexactly
right and instead of wondery. But that's okay. But hey,
wondery is a great place and we get it. Yes,
yes they are. That's lovely.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
I love right.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
It's been so weird because since we're not touring, I
feel like that was I didn't realize that that was
our access to the audience and to the listeners and
not just you know, the live shows, but afterwards at
the meat or we meet a hundred fucking incredible people
that we get to have interactions with and remember that
we're talking to someone other than each other. Yeah, you know,

(22:09):
and so I kind of miss out. I think we
miss out on that a lot. But but it's there,
and we have to you know, there has to be
a point to all of this, because it's very it's
a lot uh more. It's more than just getting on

(22:30):
the iTunes top twenty. It's got there's got to be
something else or hey.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Listen, as we all know, that's completely manipulable, manipulable, it is.
It's it. That's a that's an algorithm you can fuck
with if you so choose to.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
And if you so choose to and want to rate,
review and subscribe to all your favorite yes yeah yeah,
oh well, if you do need something to take you
out of your trauma and just like distract you, Vince
and I have been like own back to the terrible
like early two thousand, not politically correct anymore movies. Legally

(23:06):
Blonde holds the fuck up? Does it?

Speaker 1 (23:10):
Really?

Speaker 2 (23:10):
I don't know if I've ever watched Karen either.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
And I was like, you do want to watch something else?
You watch the thing else? He's like, no, let's watch this.
And then we started watching Legally one two doesn't hold up.
But and then also mcgruber, which I had never seen,
Oh yeah, which is just it's so Leslie Nielsen style ridiculousness.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
I saw that definitely sat in the theater. I may
have gone to it like a PREMI a brag. This
is a bragging corner, red carpet, my best friend Magroobo.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
It's really it's really stupid, fun funny, you know.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
Yes, And there's truly no better person, like no cooler
man and no funnier person. And Will Forte, I mean
he genuinely he's good, fucking he's the best. He's genuinely nice.
I'm genuinely cool and the kind of person that yeah,
he's just he's a he's a true uh, he's a

(24:13):
true gentleman and talent. We love him he's funnier than that.
What about the I think you should leave sketch where
he's the old man on the airplane. Did you see that?

Speaker 3 (24:23):
No?

Speaker 1 (24:23):
Oh from no no, Have you watched Tim Robinson's sketch show?
I think you should leave, not the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Oh yeah, I need I love Tim Robinson.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
I need to drop it off the mic right now,
Tam Robinson.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
Get Detroit Ters, which is one of the best shows
on the planet.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, and yes, please go. Can I watch a sketch
like the second More Done, one of the funniest sketches ever?

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Okay, I watch it. I have a little crush on
Sam Richardson. Do you know that from Detroit's Oh.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yeah, he is a beautiful man. I saw him. Sorry
another brag, but I saw him in like twenty twelve,
I think wow at Second City. Wow, in a show
where he was so fucking good, Like he was such
a standout in this show and everyone in the group
was really good.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, yeah, long ago. Katie rich was in it too,
who was a very talented writer and cool lady. There's
a bunch of and I apparently Tim Robinson was also
in that group that but he just wasn't there that night,
but yeah, well he's a hot I saw him.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
We were at I was at a dance. It was
the Trilogy dance night of like The Cure and like
all these like that timey you know music. Yeah, but
like he was at the current two years ago. That's
because that's recent, because the last year doesn't count at
a dance night. And I was there with Emily and Kummel,

(25:50):
who are Braggy Brick, who are friends with him, and
he walked up and I went and everyone was like, oh,
Sam's Terra and I went ea, like we were friends.
And then I was like, fuck, he doesn't know who
I am. Turned away, and I was so embarrassed, so embarrassed.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Chris's reaction, he must have laughed.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
I don't even think he acknowledged me, Like we were like,
oh Easier, No, you don't know him, you don't know him,
you don't know him. It's a fan shut shut up.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
Hey, it's I think it's cool to fan out on
people right now. Yeah, that's pretty rare. I feel it,
love it. Okay, I was going to tell you about that.
I just started this podcast. It's called Evil by Design.
It's yet another hit from the CBC. They don't give

(26:46):
a fuck, They just keep making him podcast.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
Love it.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
And this was recommended to me by uh, none other
than Letter Kenny's Jacob Tierney, who has very good taste.
Has become my very best quarantine friend. And I take
his ideas and talk about them all the time on
this podcast and never give him credit. And I know

(27:12):
he listens, so I'm finally I'm finally giving him credit.
But Kenny, great show, Letter Kenny, Everyone's favorite show. It's
season nine. I believe there is just their their legendary
Canadian comedy people. But this podcast, Evil by Design is
about this designer named I believe it's Peter Nigard and

(27:36):
this fucking guy is like the Canadian version of Jeffrey
Epstein times a thousand. Oh that's like way more victims.
It's super crazy and I think I'm on episode two
right now. It's a super mind blowing story, really awful.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Murder by Design, Evil by Design, Evil by Design. Yeah,
all right, I'm into that because yeah, I mean, I'm
not into it. It's horrible. But I've never heard of him.
That sounds cool, Yeah, did you? So? There's Euphoria is
on a break it seems like an incredible show on HBO,
but they had a two part special and one is

(28:13):
just about Rue and then the other is just about Jules,
and I think I haven't watched that one yet. She's
in therapy just one on one, and then the one
with Rue with Zendaiya, so it's her with her like
AA sponsor Coleman Domingo, who's this incredible actor and deserves
a fucking Emmy for this, both of them. It's one
of the best hours of TV. And it's so powerful.

(28:35):
I had to stop because they're talking about addiction and
depression and feeling worthless in that and if you have
those issues, I say you should watch it if you
have If you have those issues and family members who
don't get it, which is such a you know, a
normal thing, which perpetuates this cycle because you feel worthless,
so you might as well keep using It is so

(28:57):
powerful and the end, it's so incredible and it touched
me in such an incredible way. So euphoria this special
episode one, and I'm so excited. I mean, I needed
a break before episode two. If it's if it's just
as fucking powerful, which I'm sure it is because Hunter
is such an incredible performer, so like, it's just it's

(29:19):
just so it's so heavy and then that.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Whole I mean, they put together an ensemble that can't.

Speaker 3 (29:25):
Be beat totally. I mean it feels like it's supposed
to be a teenager's show, but it's fucking not.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
It's I watched it because I just wanted to hang
out with some teenagers and here I am in the
midst of very adult problems and situations.

Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yeah, then sayah, this ain't no fucking saved by the Bell.
I don't know what's the equivalent these days.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
I think you nailed it. I do love the makeup, though,
I really it's like that kind of show that gives
you It's like, what do you want an unbelievable, powerful,
and heart wrenching storyline? Okay, here do you want? Really
good visuals? Like just every by being a little bit
perfectly beautiful in their own flawed way.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
But that also helps the narrative of the characters because
you're like, oh, this is the kind of person you are.
I get it, which make which everyone knows makeup can do.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
It's very true. Yeah, what else?

Speaker 3 (30:17):
What do you guys?

Speaker 1 (30:18):
I think that's all I got?

Speaker 3 (30:20):
I'm listening to the audiobook for American Gods by Neil Gaiman,
which I've listened to before, and I just it's such
a nice distraction. It's like a fairy tale. It's like
a dark fairy tale almost. I highly recommend it.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yeah, I am actually reading a book that a friend
of the show, Dave Anthony's wife, Heather, gave me and
hat she's also a listener and friend of the show.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
And Heather's a psychologist too, isn't she?

Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yes, she is, so that's how she's married to Dave Anthony.
I'm totally joking. She gave me this beautiful set of
books as a as a housewarming gift. That was I
think you probably have seen them at my house. They're
from the fifties and it's murders from Los Angeles, murders

(31:10):
from Chicago, murders from remember that. Did you ever see that?
And they're like, is the.

Speaker 3 (31:15):
Time Life book?

Speaker 2 (31:17):
No?

Speaker 1 (31:17):
No, no, But it's almost like the nineteen fifty two
version of that for almost like true a true crime series.
So they have the almost like the Ribe library plastic
wrap on the outside.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
I love that plastic wrap.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
I kind of I didn't have a book around and
I needed like actual book to fall asleep with. Yeah,
like I can't. I can't do it audio because then
I have a very strange dream. So I pulled this
book off the shelf. I was like, why am I
not actually reading these using them as like decoration? I
have a Yeah, So I pulled down the Los Angeles

(31:52):
one and it's so good. It's just true crime stories
and from I think it's like the twenties, thirties, four,
the fifties in Los Angeles, and it got I was
three chapters in and now it's on Charles Desmond.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
Yes, the director shot by I did that for a
live show in LA right, Yes.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yes, and it's Norma Desmond was at his house.

Speaker 3 (32:18):
Nor the whole thing was na was named Norma Desmond
from Sunset Boulevard was named after these characters. So it's
something Desmond something.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
Will oh William Desmond Taylor, Yeah, thank you? Shot William
Desmond Taylor is his professional name, but that's not his
actual real name. Did you know any of this part?

Speaker 3 (32:38):
Probably think then that I forgot now what this?

Speaker 1 (32:42):
He basically had a mysterious life before he became a
director in Hollywood in the twenties that no one knew
about that came to light when this thing came out,
it was it's just the kind of thing where so
the person who put the story together, it's just basically
all the news story worries. So it's almost like any theory,

(33:02):
any whatever, what people said. It's on like gossip. Here,
here's a here's a thing that came out and people
got all into and then it just disappeared. Blah blah blah.
That his brother was actually his his dad butler.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
Oh, you know, those stories are like his sister was
actually his mom and race and she got pregnant at
young age and so she was family secret. That doesn't
make it.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, this has I'm only like a little bit into it.
But anyway, it's just kind of a real good and
I don't think anyone can buy this book. It seems
like a fucking great random Yeah, it's one of the
worst recommendations I've ever done. Thanks Heather, thank you for
the lovely gift.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
Oh love it. I love it. I think that's all
I Oh my new my new meditation is just videos
of people up close painting their nails. The most as
Mr relaxing o Pi on Instagram. The Lovely nail polish
company has really going to get free stuff. I've been

(34:04):
fucking lutely I'm trying to get free shit from OPI.
They have these like close up nail polish polishing perfect
in the lines, and it's just it's.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Just so relaxing. Also, how do they do it? Because
every time I go to paint my own nail.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah, you look like a fucking ten year old child.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
For real. It's sad except for like my old true
I mean everyone everybody, but my old trick when we
would do live shows is I would just do silver
because you can get away with silver everywhere no one
can really tell. And it looks a little bit fancy,
but like if you actually can see up close, it's
just like I'm just basically painting the tops of my things.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
I actually I'm I hate no brag. I'm really good
at it because it is one of my like anti
stress things. And then I peel it off. And that's
my other anti stress thing is peeling a nail polish.
It's like my zip popping video.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Now, doesn't that mess up your nails?

Speaker 3 (35:04):
So what stress messes up my brain? And so to
pick one? Are they okay?

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yes? Those are your only two choices.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
And that's it. Yes, you have to it, Okay, nothing else.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
We're solving problems for everybody this show.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
And then we'll get out of your hair.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Uh, and then we're going to get out of your hair.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
Speaking of hair and getting out of it. Should we
do Exactly Right News?

Speaker 1 (35:29):
I thought you were going to do another plug, Yes,
we should absolutely do.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
Guys.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
Just here's the thing. If you want to know what's
going on the network, it's getting to the point now
where we have so many podcasts that we would really
love it if you'd go on to exactly writ dot
com because there is where you will find most of
the information.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
It's exactly right media dot com, stepid.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
Media, Stephen, have you ever gone on our website before?
Is it pretty?

Speaker 3 (35:58):
It's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
It's on his home page, Steven.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
Yeah, exactly right, Media dot com.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
Great, exactly right Media.

Speaker 3 (36:07):
Yes, and so we and then also like on iTunes,
there's like a you can click on on networks, and
so if you go to exactly right the network, it
shows you know how to work things. You're you're probably
in your twenties.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
I only one that doesn't. But anyway, what we're saying,
is this part we want we want to make it
fresh and funny? Are you? But also just basically it's
like reading the TV guide.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
That's right, that's not the TV guide. Well on this
podcast will kill you, the fucking hit podcast Aaron and
Aaron Cover. I think this is fascinating, the ins and
outs of organ transplantation, which as a as a donor,
as a potential donor one day, do.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
You have the dono?

Speaker 3 (36:50):
Did you mark that? You marked that on your life?
Did take whatever you need? Why do I fucking care?

Speaker 1 (36:57):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (36:58):
I think that's just a fascinating topic. H How does
it work? And then when you hear the stories of
people like did you see the photo of the mom
and dad listening to the heart of the person who
got their son's heart when he passed away and they're
crying and he just like let them take a stethoscope
and listen to their son's heart and trust.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
Sorry, what did this just happen to you? No?

Speaker 3 (37:23):
It just touched me. I saw the video like or
like a photo of it. We should put it on
the Instagram. It's so beautiful.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yes? It does?

Speaker 1 (37:32):
You look you look well, I just don't you're we're
talking about this podcast, but you're just talking about a
thing you remembered of that happening. Uh huh oh okay.
I thought basically you listened to the podcast and then
on it they mentioned this thing.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
No, it just I was confused. No I was, I
was too clearly, but this podcast will kill you. Excellent podcast.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
Also, because it's Black History Month, Millie and Danielle on
I Saw What You Did are covering black directors, actors,
other artists in the film industry. So this week they're
doing the films to Sleep with Anger from nineteen ninety
and Penitentiary, which is from nineteen seventy nine. I Saw

(38:14):
You Did has a five star rating. Hey, thank you,
it's really nice. Know how to rate your viands subscribe
pretty nice.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
And then in the merch store on my favorite murder
dot com, fucking Denton and the merch team turned this
shit around from last week and made Unwashed and Unabashed
presale merch. So it's a really cool design. It's perfect
for quarantine. There's T shirts, longsleeve shirts, hoodies, and they're

(38:43):
available for presale. So fucking let the world know. Ain't no,
there's no shame.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
Let the other people in your house know that's right,
that you're in quarantine. Yeah, baby, all right, should we
get into this thing, absolutely, let's do it, Okay. So
it was on February first, to the beginning of Black
History Month. I was, of course on Twitter, and I

(39:11):
stumbled on this thread that was actually really pretty fascinating.
It was started by a woman whose Twitter handle is
at t spooney tee underscore spooney spooney with an ie,
and her name's Tiana slash Crip gossip Girl, and she wrote,
when y'all and inevitably talk about Harriet Tubman this month,

(39:32):
let's not leave out the fact that she was disabled,
and then goes on to explain how Harriet Tubman had epilepsy,
possibly narcolepsy. So when she was moving people along the
underground railroad, there were times where she would actually say
and if I like, if I basically have one of

(39:53):
my spells go on without me. Wow. And this was
the thing she had to deal with basically all her life.
And so as I got into this into this thread
and basically let me read the rest of these posts
that this woman wrote, because it's pretty fascinating. She wrote,
and if anyone questions you about it, ask them what
they think. Having regular seizures as a result of head

(40:14):
trauma that cause you to lose consciousness for any amount
of time with no warning is And then she wrote,
and also, please don't do that weird inspiration thing y'all
do with disabled people. She was amazing because of her achievements,
not because she achieved it quote unquote in spite being disabled.
So basically it opens this discussion, which is really cool
because then it's a combination of people going, I had

(40:37):
no idea, how come we never get taught anything like this?
What's wrong with the American school system? And then there's
a bunch of other people who know about it and
are adding to it. And so apparently from learning from
this thread, which is pretty amazing. She was hit in
the head with a weight of some kind of a

(40:57):
measuring weight by a slave owner who was trying to
throw this weight at an escaping boy who was being
slave traded, and she basically was trying to get in
the middle so he could get away, and she got
hit in the head with this weight, and then she
basically it was like brain trauma, and so for the
rest of her life she had seizures and or an arcolepsy,

(41:21):
but she would describe them as spells, and she interpreted
what she would see and the things that would happen
while she was out unconscious as messages from God.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
So it actually there's no in spite of her disability,
because it actually was, you know, the thing that kind
of inspired her and guided her while she was doing
all of this amazing work. Then people start talking about
all this other stuff that she did and how she
was in general. She was made a general and she
won this battle like one of the only women to

(41:54):
win a battle, and it was just it's a really
cool thread of a bunch of people who were the
people who have the information are thrilled to share ittal.
And then there's a bunch of other people going, how
come Twitter's the one place I learned, you know, black
history the most, I mean whatever. So in the middle
of this thread, someone who's Twitter handle is at co

(42:16):
Pony so CEO underscore Pony wrote and it was hashtag
no coup twenty twenty one. They wrote, I learned about
this guy today. Epic beyond hero war injuries and still
helped save France from the Nazis and then she posted
this a picture and like this little thing that was
basically a post from Instagram, and so I looked at

(42:38):
it and it was someone I have never seen before
and never heard the name of before. So I figured
it would be a good time to tell you about
a man named Eugene.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Ballard, the world's first black fighter pilot. Karen Hey killing
it it was.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
I mean, look, some good things happen on social media
we have to remember. And it's still is. It's pretty
mind blowing that I'm a fifty year old woman and
still learning about things like this. Sure, so it's kind
of exciting. And I appreciate all those people that participated
in this insane epic thread that goes on and on.

(43:14):
I mean, there's a bunch of suggestions in here too
of other people where I was just like, all right,
this one down too.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
Love it.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
So here's some of the sources. Is a book called
All Blood Runs Read The Legendary Life of Eugene Ballard,
Boxer Pilot Soldiers by by Phil Keith and Tom Claven. Claven,
the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum website, which is
a legit dot edu. A website called The Bitter Southerner.
There was an article on that called the Vanishing Stories

(43:44):
of the Ballard Brothers by an journalist named Jeremy Redman.
The PBS series American Experience has an article on the
PBS website called the Two Lies of Eugene Ballard, and
of course the Wikipedia, and there is an article in
the sag Harbor Express a journalist named Annette Hinkel called

(44:04):
Meet the Amazing Eugene Ballard. Great all right, So what's
interesting is that if you took one of the elevators
at Rockefeller Center at any point between nineteen fifty four
and nineteen fifty nine, there was a chance that you
could be standing next to a great American hero. But
it was a secret. Nobody knew about it until December
of nineteen fifty nine, when the producers at the Today

(44:26):
Show that still had its original hosts, Wow, learned that
just two months prior, on October ninth, nineteen fifty nine,
a local man named Eugene Ballard had just been named
a Chevalier de la lejon d'n aire, which is France's
highest award for military service.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Wait, so are you saying he was the elevator operator?

Speaker 1 (44:49):
Yes, I am Wow. Yes, I am buck. So the
producers of the Today Show realized that not only does
this man live in New York, but he's the elevator
operator in the very building where the Today Show is filmed.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
Sorry, I spoiled that.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
It's okay, that's our right, that's what everyone else is
doing too, so it's fine, okay. So they go to
Eugene Ballard and they ask him to be a guest
on the Today Show. So on December twenty second, nineteen
fifty nine, Eugene Ballard takes the stage wearing his elevator
operator uniform. Wait, should I'm going to send you I'm

(45:29):
going to post this picture. Look at the picture because
there's a beautiful black and white photo of him and
the original host of the Today's Show. Okay, let me
look at up. So you see, he wears his uniform
on stage, and he brings his military medals and all
his military awards that he's ever won in a display case,

(45:49):
and he sits down and begins to tell the host
all about his life, and America finally meets a hero
that no one's ever heard of before, because it turns
out that this man he not only fought in not
one but two World Wars. But he is the world's

(46:10):
first black fighter pilot.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
And this is almost twenty years after World War Two ended,
and so he's been oh yeah, under a radar this
whole time.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
Come entirely, and this piece of his life that's so
incredible is truly a drop in the bucket to what
I'm about to tell you. Okay, So let me tell
you all about the life of Eugene Ballard. So, his father,
William Ballard, is born into slavery in Columbus, Georgia in
eighteen sixty three, but two years later the abolition of

(46:40):
slavery happens in eighteen sixty five, and so he becomes
a free man, a free baby. And in eighteen eighty two,
at age nineteen, William marries Josephine Yokilie Thomas, who's a
seventeen year old Indigenous woman who is from the Creek
tribe who lives nearby. Together, they have ten children, and

(47:01):
Eugene is the seventh child. He's the seventh son. So
his father always thought that he was lucky. He was
lucky and special. And this family's very poor and the
conditions at home make it hard to care for ten kids.
Three of the children don't make it past infancy. But
William is a very strong man, very determined worker. He's

(47:25):
six foot five, weighs about two hundred and fifty pounds.
Takes any job that anyone will hire him for, and
he starts working at the local docks and then the
warehouses along the river. And he gets the nickname Big
Ox for of course his stature, but also for his
work ethic. In the eighteen nineties, William gets steady work
under a white cotton broker named William C. Bradley, and

(47:48):
Bradley actually treats William well by eighteen nineties standards, which
causes the rest of the white workers to be very
angry and to resent William because he's favored and he
makes the same wages that white workers make, and that
so that makes these white.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
Men mainteen ninety that's like progressive for those standards.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Yeah, it is. In nineteen oh one, young Eugene starts
school at Columbus's twenty eighth Street School. Much like the
rest of the community, this school suffers from a lack
of money and supplies. Eugene spends five years there. He
learns to read and write and do math, but he
eventually he gets the equivalent of a second grade education.

(48:33):
The year after he starts school, in August of nineteen
oh two, his mother dies suddenly at just thirty seven
years old, right before Eugene's seventh birthday. So the older
Boulard children have to take on the household chores, they
have to watch the younger kids, and they all have
to get jobs so they can help support the family.

(48:54):
When he's young, Eugene describes himself as as trusting as
a chickadee and friendly, and he quote loved everybody and
thought everybody loved me. He plays with kids of all
races in his neighborhood, but as they grow up get older,
he starts to realize not everyone is actually his friend,
and soon the white kids stop playing with him, and

(49:16):
his father and his siblings have to teach him about
the racial divides and injustices in this country. So because
Eugene's father, William's background, his people are actually from Martinique,
so they have you know, there's a lot of exposure
to French culture, and his father has a utopian view

(49:38):
of France, even though he's never visited the country. He
gives his kids the impression that in France all people
are treated equally regardless of their race. And Eugene, who
craves equality and that idea of that very fair and
just utopia, he longs to travel to France. So around

(49:58):
this time, there's a at Eugene's father, William's work, named
Billy Stevens, and he is the one that hates William
the most. He gives him the worst and hardest tasks,
hoping to break him. But William's spirit cannot be broken.
He happily does his job. He carries his stoke wisdom
home to his kids. He says, if I have to

(50:20):
hit Stevens, I want you all to be good children.
Always show respect to each and everyone, white and black,
and make them respect. You go to school as long
as you can. Never look for a fight, I mean never.
But if you are attacked or your honor is attacked unjustly,
you fight, and you fight, and you keep fighting even
if you die for your rights, because it will be

(50:41):
a glorious death. So William's at good attitude in the
face of mistreatment just makes Billy Stevens even angrier. So
on one day in nineteen oh four, Stevens approaches William
accusing him of basically tattling to the Big Boss about
Steven's behavior, so William decides he's going to ignore Billy.

(51:05):
Billy takes that as disrespect, grabs an iron hook that
it's used for carrying cotton bales, and he whacks William
on the side of the head, leaving a huge, bloody gash.
William Billard stumbles to his feet. He picks Stevens up
over his head and throws him into a cellar. Oh
Stevens Lands was such an intense thud that the surrounding

(51:27):
workers think he's dead, but he's not. He's hurt, and
of course he's very badly embarrassed. So William goes to
the Big Boss. Bradley tells him what happens. Bradley tells
William to go home lay Low, he's going to take
care of it, and Bradley has a doctor check on
Stevens to make sure he's okay, and he tells Stevens

(51:49):
that if he doesn't keep quiet about the situation, he'll
lose his job. But there were too many witnesses. Word
travels fast, and soon an angry, drunken lynch mob gathers
at a nearby saloon and heads for the Ballard's home. So,
of course William's anticipating this mob, because this is standard
fair in the Jim Crow South. He directs all the

(52:12):
kids to hide under their bed while he keeps posts
behind the front door with a loaded shotgun in his hand.
And this drunken mob surrounds the house. They're screaming, they're
banging on the doors, and of course Eugene is scared
to death. Eventually the family the lights are off, the
family's silent, so the mob eventually figures that the Ballards

(52:34):
have run off, and they leave. And this has this moment,
and this fear and witnessing such a hideous thing, of
course marks Eugene forever. So he's held bent now on
finding a place where quote white people treated color people
like human beings. So he makes several attempts to run away,

(52:56):
but his dad catches him every almost every time. But
in nineteen oh six, at age eleven, he sells his
goat and cart for a dollar fifty, packs up some
food and a few belongings, and hikes his way along
the train tracks, headed east. But before his dad can
catch up with him, Eugene meets a kind family they

(53:17):
give him a dollar and that enables him to buy
a train ticket to Atlanta eleven years old, and he
finally makes his getaway. So in Atlanta, he finds a
number of odd jobs, basically, you know, making himself some cash.
So he he gets a job. He starts hanging around

(53:40):
some stables because there's a lot of horse racing in Atlanta,
and he works there long enough, and then he basically
gets moved up to being a jockey because he's little
and he can ride a horse. So he becomes a jockey,
and he's that young, he's not awesome, and he's good
at it. He also helps out in a barber shop.
He's very charming and smart young man, so strangers like

(54:05):
him and they're very kind to him. So, basically, on
his father's advice, he makes people respect him with his
friendly demeanor and his hard work, and that helps him survive.
One day, in his early teens, he has a chance
meeting with a band of English travelers who are outcast

(54:26):
wanderers themselves, so they welcome him into their band with
open arms, and he's hopeful that these englishmen will take
him with them when they go back to England, which
would bring a one step closer to getting to France.
But then when they tell Eugene that they're planning to
stay in America for another couple of years, he's disappointed.
He parts ways with them, wanders around Georgia a little

(54:49):
while longer working odd jobs. Then a friend tells him
if he can get to Virginia, he can get onto
a big ship is that will be traveling overseas. So
in nineteen twelve, he's now sixteen years old and he
stows away one night in the undercarriage of a dining
car on the Seaboard Line passenger and freight train heading

(55:09):
to Virginia. So he holds onto the underneath of the
dining car, gets himself he's not fucking insane. Oh my god,
he's got a vision. Yeah, that's what's cool. So he
gets to Virginia. He finds there's a black family by
the name of Hughes who he meets, who gives him
a few bucks, tells him that he can find a

(55:30):
ship in the city of Newport News, so he hops
another train, rides underneath the car again, makes his way
to Newport News, Virginia. When he gets to the docks,
he finds a crew loading goods onto a large ship,
and one of the crewmen mistake Eugene for being a worker,
so Eugene uses that opportunity, pretends to be a worker,
sneaks on board, hides hides between two bales of cotton

(55:52):
for two hours until the ship departs. But three hours
later the ship docks again in another Virginia, so he's
like God, thinks he's going to get there, and then
he doesn't. He ends up telling one of the crewmen
about that's what he's trying to do, and the crewman
decides to help him, so he points Eugene in the
direction of a ship called the Martyr Russ, and he

(56:15):
says that ship's crew is German, but they'll be making
other stops on their way and they can use help
on board. And sure enough, the crew on the Martyr
Russ welcome Eugene's help, and on March fourth, nineteen twelve,
Eugene finally sets sail for Europe. So by law, the
shipping crew has to drop stowaways off at the next

(56:36):
port they reach, which in the Martyr Russ's case is Aberdeen, Scotland.
But in true Eugene fashion, he spends the two week voyage,
winning the hearts of the German crew. He's a hard
worker and he's a quick learner, and he ends up
picking up the German language from his crewmates.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
All right.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
Yeah, So by the time they reach Scotland, members of
the crew chip in to send him off with those supplies,
and the captain pays him twenty five dollars in wages. Wow,
which is huge in today's money lot. Couple hundred, I
didn't look it up. So the Scots receive him well.

(57:14):
Of course they speak English, but their accent is very
difficult for Gene and everyone else on the planet.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
To understand, especially back then. I bet like the conversion
rate of the Scottish accent was just incomprehensible.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
There was no outside world to kind of expose them
to or oh my god, because most Scottish people had
never met a black person before, they all called him
Jack Johnson after the famous box Yeah Johnson. Eugene takes
it as a compliment and continues to charm his way
from Aberdeen to Glasgow, and there he finds himself a

(57:51):
cheap room and he befriends some con men who are
running a three card money game outside on the street.
And he gets a job as their lookout. Heistles whenever
the cops come around, and basically he's just making friends.
So in August of nineteen twelve, after five months of
saving up cash, he gets himself to Liverpool because he

(58:13):
heard he can make more money there. He eventually he
tries to get some jobs. He eventually gets work unloading
large slabs of frozen mutton off of incoming ships, which
is really brutal work and really exhausting, but he ends
up being able to join the stevedor union, which is

(58:35):
stevedores and longshortman are similar, but one involves a crane.
I think I looked it up and I was just like, sorry,
what And that's a disgrace because my grandfather was a longshoreman,
so I apologize to longshoreman everywhere. But he was one
of the two. I don't know if a crane was involved,
but he is for this job. He is in a union,

(58:57):
which means he's making a good money and also he
just getting stronger and stronger because it's backbreaking labor totally.
During the holiday season of twenty of nineteen twelve, Eugene
goes to Birkenhead, where Liverpool's main amusement park is and
he spots a game where players throw a ball at
someone who pops their head through different holes in the canvas.

(59:19):
So it's basically human whack a mole facing the people
throwing the ball, and if the person gets hit three times,
the player wins. So Eugene gets an idea because, knowing
how white people are, he basically tells the guy running
the game, they'll get more business if the person popping
their head through the sheet is black.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
It's an upsetting suggestion, but of course it's right, and
many more people play the game. It brings in a
lot more business for the attraction, and Eugene makes bank.
So he basically is taking advantage of the racism and
ignorance and making money off of it. He's actually able

(01:00:03):
to quit his job on the docks and he makes
triple at this game what he made just by working
weekends at the amusement part.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
So he uses his new free time to explore Liverpool,
and his favorite place to go is Baldwin's boxing gym,
and he's taken in by the atmosphere captivated by the
boxers who are training for their fights. He convinces the
gym owner Chris Baldwin to let him work there during
the week and telling him there's no task too small

(01:00:37):
for him to do. He'll do whatever the guy needs
him to do. By February of nineteen thirteen, Baldwin is
so impressed with Eugene's work ethic that he invites him
to start training and sparring with the boxers. So Eugene
trains is a lightweight under the name The Sparrow. Because
even though he's light he tells Baldwin he can fly
like a bird. So Eugene wins his first ten round fight,

(01:01:00):
and then he catches the eye of an actual pro
boxer who's at the at the fight, Aaron Lister Brown
who's called Dixie Kid. So the Dixie Kid takes Eugene
under his wing and has him join his touring company
of boxers. So Eugene agrees and with Baldwin's blessing, and

(01:01:21):
also because Baldwin is Eugene's technical manager, which means he
gets a cut of Eugene's wages. That means that Eugene
gets to the Sparrow gets to follow his team to London.
He moves into the whole born neighborhood of London, where
many other black expatriots live and work in all facets
of the art arts. Eugene's winning personality and ability to

(01:01:45):
perform earns him a spot in Belle Davis's Friedman's Picaninnies,
which is a popular traveling slapstick troop of black performers,
and this, along with the boxing, pays him well and
the job enables him to travel all over the globe. Basically,
he goes from Saint Petersburg to Moscow, to Berlin, and

(01:02:07):
finally he gets to go to Paris, so as he imagined,
he instantly falls in love with the city. It's late
nineteen thirteen and the Dixie Kid arranges a boxing match
for Eugene in Paris that enables him to officially move there.
He continues boxing in Paris, I think he moved up
a couple weight classes, and he also picks up a

(01:02:29):
side gig working at a local music hall. So between
the good wages, good friends, fewer run ins with the racists,
Eugene finds himself living the life he's always dreamed of.
So when World War One begins in August of nineteen fourteen,
Eugene feels compelled to serve the country that's given him
the life he dreamed of living. So on October nineteenth,

(01:02:52):
nineteen fourteen, at the age of nineteen years old, Eugene
enlists in the French Foreign Legion, which is a branch
of the French military that citizens are permitted to join.
He's assigned to the third Marching Regiment and serves as
a machine gunner. This regiment is named the Swallows of Death,
and this is where he picks up his nickname, the
Black Swallow of Death. In nineteen fifteen, he fights in

(01:03:17):
some of the worst and bloodiest battles in World War One.
He's at the front at Somme, He's at Artois, and
he's in the Second Battle of Champagne, and there's a
couple places like that list out. I was reading this,
but it was so much information. But some of these

(01:03:37):
fights there was like an eighty percent death rate, Like
the death rates were all really high. He survived these
horrible battles kind of against the odds. It's crazy, and
he fights with such honor and such vigor that he's
transferred from the Foreign Legion to one of the standard
French army units, the one hundred and seventieth Infantry Regiment

(01:03:58):
so that he can fight at the Battle of Verdun
in nineteen sixteen. So in the Battle of Verdun he
is horribly wounded. Some of the doctors think he might
never be able to walk again. He's removed from ground
combat permanently, but his courage and battle earns him his
first military decoration, which is the Croadigure. So he sent

(01:04:22):
to Lyon to recover from his injuries. Then he takes
his leave in Paris and when he's on leave he's
drinking with his friend and his friend is saying, you
can never fight, you can never be a foot soldier again,
and he's like, I'm going to fight again. So his
friend bets him two thousand dollars that he can that

(01:04:45):
he can't get into the French flying Service.

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
Oh my god, that's so much money. Two thousand dollars
has that even like, especially during war.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
I know well that it was basically like he was saying,
it does matter. Eugene was like, if I can't fight,
you know, be a foot soldier, then I'm going to
Then I'm going to be a pilot. And the guy's like, no,
you're not going to. That'll never happen, and he's like, yes,
it will, I bet you two thousand dollars it won't,
And then he.

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
Thinks it's a good bet, But in actuality.

Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
Yes, he's a fucking idiot because he's talking to Eugene Bullard. No,
even though no black soldier had ever been admitted before
on November. In November of nineteen sixteen, Eugene Ballard wins
the bet and joins the Aero Nautique Militaire. He starts
as training the same year and earns his wings on
May fifth, nineteen seventeen. He spends that night celebrating with

(01:05:40):
his friends, later saying that quote. But by midnight, every
American in Paris knew that an American Negro by the
name of Eugene Boullard born in Georgia had obtained a
military pilot's license. Eugene Bollard is now the world's first
black combat pilot. Back in America, no one has a
clue about this achievement. So in April of nineteen seventeen,

(01:06:04):
when America enters the war, Eugene applies to join the
American Expeditionary Forces so he can serve as a pilot
alongside his fellow Americans, but they basically tell him they're
not accepting any more applications. But this is a blatant lie.
He's denied admittance because he's black. But Eugene keeps his

(01:06:29):
head high. He states that he still takes quote some
comfort knowing that I was to go on fighting on
the same front and in the same cause as other
citizens of the United States. So instead he sticks with
the French divisions, and on June twenty eighth, nineteen seventeen,
he's promoted to corporal, and in August of the same
year he's assigned to the French Escadrill SPA ninety three,

(01:06:53):
then to a different esca Drill SPA eighty five on
September thirteenth, nineteen seventeen. On the side of his plane,
he paints an insignia of a heart with a dagger
through it, and below it he writes, all blood runs red.
So during his piloting career, he flies somewhere between twenty
five to twenty seven missions. He takes down two German planes,

(01:07:16):
but in the battle against the second plane, he actually
chases this German plane into territory and no one else
sees him shoot the plane. Down, so he doesn't get
credit that for that kill. And in that as he
goes down to chase him, his plane gets shot and

(01:07:37):
he crashes. Miraculously he survives, and afterwards his fellow soldiers
come and they count the bullet holes in his plane.
That are seventy eight bullet holes in his plane. He's
taken to a hospital, he makes a full recovery. After
his recovery, he serves a little bit longer and then
he's discharged in October twenty fourth, nineteen nineteen. And here's

(01:08:00):
where it gets pretty interesting. Okay, so that wasn't enough
for you. After World War One, Eugene is awarded the
French is awarded French citizenship for his service. So he
goes back to Paris. He goes back to boxing, but
his war injuries make it kind of hard, so he's
not in his many matches. So what does he do?
You guessed it. He learns to play the drums and

(01:08:22):
he gets himself work as a jazz drummer in a
nightclub called Zelli's, which is located in Paris's small Marsh
district YEP. With the help of his lawyer friend Robert Anri,
Eugene scores a license for the nightclub to stay open
past midnight, which is a privilege awarded to no other

(01:08:42):
clubs in Paris at the time. So keeping these late
hours he makes Zelli's a hot spot, and his popularity
at Zelis gives him the opportunity to travel with a
jazz band to Alexandria, Egypt, where he not only performs
at the nightclub, but he also boxes in two prizes.

(01:09:03):
When he returns to Paris, he makes money hiring musicians
for the social elites who have private parties. He also
works as a massuse an athletic trainer, and he opens
his own gym called Boollard's Athletic Club, where he trains
boxers boxers Panama Al Brown and Young Perez. I know
you're fans of both. In nineteen twenty three, he marries.

(01:09:28):
In some articles, she was described as a socialite, but
in one article I read that she was a countess,
and so that's what I'm going with because it's a
better story. Her name was Marcel Stroman. They had two daughters,
Jacqueline and Lolita, and those young daughters were often babysat
by Eugene's good friend, the Great Josephine Baker. No, yes,

(01:09:52):
that's his world. Those are people around.

Speaker 3 (01:09:54):
It's the most stories I've ever heard, insane.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
Okay. So when Eugene and Marcel break up in nineteen
thirty five, he ends up keeping custody of his daughters.
So after four years, Eugene leaves Zelli's nightclub in nineteen
twenty three to become the manager, the drummer and the
maitre d at another nightclub called Les squedrill, which is
that's the word for squadron. I was saying it earlier

(01:10:20):
pretty badly, but that's that's what it meant. So this,
at this club, there's a cast of stars, a young
Louis Armstrong, Josephine Baker, Zelda and f Scott Fitzgerald, a
young Langston Hughes, who Eugene actually hires as a dishwasher
for a little while.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
Like Hughes as a dishwasher, Okay, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
Ernest Hemingway likes to hang out there. He becomes so
close with Eugene that Eugene also becomes the inspiration for
a jazz drummer character in the novel The Sun Also Rises.
Eugene doesn't just attract stars, he also makes them. One
of his clubs Singers and Drummers is a man named
Dooley Wilson, who ends up winning the role of Sam,

(01:11:05):
the piano player in the movie Casablan No Oh, play
it again, Sam. Yeah, this is like as I was
reading this, so it's like this is this is like
a real life actually cool Forrest Camp. Like he's he
is the source, He's the beginning of everything. He is
like living this.

Speaker 3 (01:11:22):
Anything, constantly reinventing himself and adding oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
And just being like open and talented and clearly brilliant.
I mean clearly if you can just go like I
think now I'm going to be a jazz Drummeral that's
a big deal. H That's not easy. Okay. So now
it's the mid to late nineteen thirties. Oh sorry, all
of Eugene's hard work, good business sense, magnetism, friendship connections

(01:11:49):
pays off, and by nineteen twenty eight he's able to
buy Lesqua Drill for his own. So now he's the
owner of this club.

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
Jesus.

Speaker 1 (01:11:57):
So now it's the like mid to late thirties, and
their Germans start to frequent at aka Nazis start to
frequent this club. So a friend of Eugene's who is
a French policeman, knows that Eugene can speak German from
his days on the ship, and so he asks them

(01:12:21):
to help the French resistance to spy on the Germans
who come to the club. So, of course, a lifelong
patriot of France, Eugene loads the German patrons up with
champagne and of course pretends he can't understand a word
they're saying, listens in on their drunken conversations, and reports
everything back to the French Resistance any info they can

(01:12:42):
get on what the Nazis are doing. According to the
authors Phil Keith and Tom Claven, who wrote Eugene's biography,
All Blood Runs Red one of many, by the way,
there's probably about five out there. Eugene was the first
person to tip French authorities off about Germans Germany's plan
to invade Poland, but the higher ups ignored the till oh, guys, okay.

(01:13:06):
So in May of nineteen forty, the Nazis invade France.
Eugene answers the call of duty once again, joining the
fifty first Infantry Regiment. The man is forty five years old,
No he and he's like, if you if it were me,
I'd be like, hey, guess what, I already fucking served.
I saw the worst. I saw some terrible shit. Thanks anyway,

(01:13:28):
he's going back. He fights in Orlan, Orleans in June
on June fifteenth, nineteen forty, but he's wounded. He finds
himself in the precarious position of being a black business
owner in German occupied France. He's forced to flee to
Neutral Spain with his daughters, and from there he's put

(01:13:49):
onto a steamship back to America with his war injuries
to basically recover in back in America after nearly three
decades of being abroad.

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
He winds up in a New York hospital where he
finishes recuperating from his war injuries. But after all of
these accomplishments, all these sacrifices, all of this bravery, no
one in America knows about it. No one has any idea,
no one cares. He maintains his friendships with big stars
like Louis Armstrong, but he's he's just hanging out. I

(01:14:25):
think they said for a little while he was a translator,
a translator for somebody. But for the most part, he
would just take jobs. He sold perfume. He just took
jobs as he could because it's still the late forties
in America, total he works security. By the end of
World War Two, he tries to find out if he

(01:14:46):
can go back to his nightclub, only to find that
it's been completely destroyed in the war. But the French
government pays him a settlement, so he uses that money
to buy himself and his daughter's an apartment in Harlem.
In nineteen forty nine, the singer performer Paul Robson throws
a concert to fundraise for the Civil Rights Congress in Peakskill,

(01:15:09):
New York. A lover of both music and of course,
a fighter for racial justice, Eugene goes on August twenty seventh,
nineteen forty nine, but when he gets there, a mob
of white supremacists, many of whom are veterans who fought
on the same side of the war as Eugene did,
and many others who are police officers, surround the concert
goers and start beating them with baseball bats and throwing stones.

(01:15:33):
Eugene's caught up in the chaos and beaten by these
criminals so badly that he loses vision In his left eye.
All in all, thirteen people are seriously injured. None of
the attackers are prosecuted. Okay, So by the nineteen fifties,
Eugene's daughters have both married, and so he lives alone
in his apartment, surrounded by framed photos of his famous friends,

(01:15:56):
as well as his fourteen military medals. So, in nineteen
fifty four, Eugene Ballard is invited back to Paris by
the French government as one of three military heroes asked
to re light the everlasting flame at Francis Tomb of
the Unknown Soldier God, and that same year he takes

(01:16:18):
the job as the elevator operator at thirty Rock.

Speaker 3 (01:16:22):
One of these things is not like the other.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
Four years later, in October of nineteen fifty nine, when
he is given the honor of Chevalier, which is a
knight of the Legion of Honor at the French Consulate.
Charles de Gaulle himself is there to besow the honor
and he calls Eugene Ballard a true French hero. So
two months later, on December twenty second, nineteen fifty nine,

(01:16:48):
Eugene Ballard goes is a guest on The Today Show
with the original host Dave Garaway, and at last, Eugene
Ballard has his moment. He wins the hearts of his
fellow a Mayoras as he chats with Garaway in his
elevator operator's uniform with his case of military medals, and
tells his stories of a life fully and beautifully lived.

(01:17:11):
After that appearance, hundreds and hundreds of letters pour into
the to day show from viewers who are impressed, touched,
and moved by mister Ballard's story, And finally, Eugene Ballard
is showered with just a fraction of the accolades he
so richly deserves from his fellow Americans. The next day,
mister Bollard returns to his post in the elevator at

(01:17:33):
thirty Rock and he works there until the pains in
his stomach that he's been hiding force him to see
a doctor and he's diagnosed with stomach cancer. Eugene Ballard
passes away from this illness on October twelfth, nineteen sixty one,
just three days after his sixty sixth birthday.

Speaker 3 (01:17:53):
Oh my god, Yah so quick.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
This is an excerpt from the nineteen seventy two biography
The Black Swallow of Death. The Incredible story of Eugene
Jacques Bollard, the world's first black fighter pilot, by PJ.
Carrosela and James Ryan, And it's about the day that
mister Bullard died. So his friend, who's an author and
an activist named Louise Fox Conal went to see him,

(01:18:20):
or connall, sorry, went to see him. In the following quote,
she's just referred to as the woman who had been
helping him with his memoirs, but her name is Louise
Fox Connell. So the quote is this quote. The woman
who had been helping him with his memoirs visited him
on the day he died. She was crying at the
bedside where he lay, seemingly lost to the world. He

(01:18:41):
was leaving, peering her sobs. His consciousness returned from wherever
it had been, and he pulled the tube out of
his mouth. He had something to say to her. The
old horseman, boxer, soldier, pilot, spy, club owner, musician, and
father turned to his friend and smiled, don't fret, honey,
it's easy. In nineteen eighty nine, Eugene Ballard is posthumously

(01:19:08):
inducted into the inaugural class of the Georgia Aviation Hall
of Fame. On October twenty third, nineteen ninety four, Eugene
is posthumously commissioned a second lieutenant in the United States
Air Force nineteen ninety four.

Speaker 3 (01:19:23):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:19:24):
And on October ninth, twenty nineteen, the Museum of Aviation
in Warner Robins, Georgia erects a statue in Eugene Boullard's
honor God.

Speaker 3 (01:19:35):
One hundred years after World War One ends, he finally.

Speaker 1 (01:19:38):
Gets yeah, a little cred.

Speaker 3 (01:19:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
So this is from PBS's American Experience, that article about him.
It says, quote, the story of how Eugene Ballard became
the first black combat pilot and why his achievement stayed
in the shadows for so long is a tale of
alternate realities of what happens when opportunity is offered or
deny and ultimately seized regardless. So this is a beautiful,

(01:20:05):
inspiring story, but it's also a true disgrace that Eugene
Ballard is not a famous historical figure in America. But
the good news is that one of Eugene's descendants, a
man named Terence Chester, has made it his mission to
change that. He's been telling Eugene Billard's life story and
winning awards for it since he was in middle school.

Speaker 3 (01:20:24):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):
So there's this really amazing article on a website called
The Bitter Southerner that I found, and it's written about
Terrence by this journalist named Jeremy Redman. And in this article,
and I really really recommend you read it because it's
really it's a really good, very informative, fascinating article. But
in it, the two men discussed the contrasting story of

(01:20:48):
Eugene Ballard and then Eugene Ballard's oldest brother, Hector. Okay,
so this is an excerpt from that article, entitled the
Vanishing Stories of the Ballard Brothers. When Eugene ran away,
his older brother, Hector, was studying business administration at Morris
Brown College, a historically black college in Atlanta. Hector was

(01:21:10):
preparing to run a peach farm in Fort Valley, one
of the biggest in the region. He inherited it from
his mother, who inherited it from her mother. A white
family had cultivated the farm for years, serving as overseers.
The overseers would send Hector's family money every year, but
without any accounting of how the farm was performing. Overall,

(01:21:33):
and Eugene wrote in his memoirs the family who ran
it when Hector inherited it, could not understand why he
should not run the orchard to suit himself the way
his father and grandfather had. But Hector was determined to
manage his own property and was studying to do it right.
Years later, his attempt to win control of it got
him lynched shortened direct. This last sentence lands like one

(01:21:57):
of Eugene's left jabs with Eugene punches his older brother's
fate into history and leaves some clues about what happened
to Hector. To Terrence, that passage reminds him of the
painful stories his grandmother told him about white landowners taking
advantage of his sharecropping ancestors. And that is the story

(01:22:20):
of the world's first black combat pilot, an American hero,
Eugene Ballard and his older brother, Hector Ballard. It's Black
History Month. Black lives matter, Black excellence should be recognized
and celebrated every day of the year.

Speaker 3 (01:22:35):
Great job, Thank you, great.

Speaker 1 (01:22:38):
Pretty amazing, pretty fucking amazing that we don't know that story.

Speaker 3 (01:22:41):
I am not shocked, sadly, but great telling, great telling
of it.

Speaker 1 (01:22:48):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:22:49):
Great. Cool, that's fucking cool.

Speaker 1 (01:22:52):
Cool cool.

Speaker 3 (01:22:53):
Look up these stories. They're out there waiting for us.
We have to figure them out ourselves because.

Speaker 1 (01:22:58):
Well, and we can. It's not that hard and people
should and you know, and good, that's right. Hey, stay sexy.

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
Hey, and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want
a cookie