269 - Big Hot C'mon

On this week's episode, Karen and Georgia cover spontaneous human combustion and the Paris Is Burning murders.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hello, and welcome.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
It's my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hartstar, thank you. That's
Karen Kilgariff, and you're welcome, and here we are to
fucking talk to you today about, you know, multi level marketing.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
I honestly, and I tweeted this the other day, but
it was genuine. I left the house for the first
time in weeks, I went down to the drug store
and every person I saw in the parking lot was
strikingly beautiful. Oh, and I was like, oh my god,
I think.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
He's the missed faces. You must look at him.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yes, I honestly think it's like it's if you don't
look like a dog, I'm like.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Wow, what have you? What products have you been using?

Speaker 2 (01:02):
I have the complete opposite situation where now that I
have a dog, a puppy who is everyone's best friend
and wants to meet everyone, so I take her out
and walks and do the dog park, I'm seeing more
people than I ever have in my life. Every day,
I'm talking to more people, and I definitely like it's
clearly making me in a better mood, just like the
experience is making me talk to more people and be

(01:24):
more social, which is a huge thing for me. So
I have the opposite where everyone's ugly because I just
keep seeing faces.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
Because secretly are being really negative about your positive thing.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, I just choked on my own lie.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
I'll let you cough that out.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
I usually I only have the most disgusting drink right now. No,
everyone's gorgeous to everyone has a beautiful face. Everyone's skin
looks amazing because they've been covering it with a mask
for a year. So like, yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Or just like get letting your skin go back to
super greasy, which is actually probably better, right like I
us you go. Mine was gross. But it was like
last night. I last night as I was going to bed,
and I truly was just like diving straight into bed.
And then I was like, you have to brush your
teeth because you can smell your own mouth.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Oh my god, I was. I went outside in the
morning to walk Cookie and I was like, this mask stinks.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
No.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
It hit me at like a few steps later that
it was my own the reverberation.

Speaker 3 (02:26):
Of my own breath. Yeah, I was horrified. These are
the basics that I think.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
You get up, when you get up and you get
ready to go to work, and you leave you're like, oh, yeah,
I did all the I flushed, I brushed, I did
a rinse whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
No, the basics of human life don't, like normal human
life don't apply anymore.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
No, And I was.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Thinking about, this is the first time in my life
since childhood where the majority of the year I haven't
worn makeup. Yeah, it's been twenty days maybe for meetings
that we've had and like fan call videos that I've
actually wore make which feels incredible and I feel like
a new different person.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
It feels incredible until I was talking about some the
other day until the meeting's over and I'm walking around
my house alone with a full fast, like full mask
of clown makeup, where I'm just like, well, this is tragic, pointless,
Like now I'm just gonna go sit in front to
you with a bunch.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
Of mascara on, and this is not for you, This
is for everyone else.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
I will say, it's a great time to take a
buttload of selfies with your cats so that you have
them in the in the role, so that you can
then post them throughout the rest of the month where
you don't have makeup on.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
That's what I do.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Do you do you plan your selfies ahead fucking lately,
oh vain and shit filters aren't gonna fucking cut it
with this hyper pigmentation.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
But then also to complain about makeup again.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Then for the next three days you have the black
ring of the mascare, the waterpood scara that won't fucking
wash off, so you look extra tired.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, yeah, no, I know, Well did you feel sorry?
This just popped into my head because also my sleep schedule.
I've never bothered to fix it, because I was like,
you know what I think this is. I'm just gonna
be like a weird baby where I'm going to work
this out naturally. I'll be I'll basically keep staying up
so late that I'll start waking up early in the morning.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
I don't know, you're sleep training yourself.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
I'm sleep training myself by letting myself be montassory. But
in the middle of the night a couple nights ago,
I woke up in the middle of the night, wide awake,
and then I was like, did you take your mascara off?
Can't remember?

Speaker 2 (04:41):
Go do it?

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Then I was like, wash yourself, wash your face with
a washcloth. That's gonna be really good. Exfoliation, started doing
some stuff, and then I was saying, why am I
so wide awake? It's like four in the morning, and
then that earthquake hit.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
I didn't get Karen, your psychic, right?

Speaker 1 (04:58):
I think I'm psychic. This is just one more piece
of proof that I.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Wonder if there was like a little pre shock that
he woke you and like started your adrenaline that you
didn't even notice could have been and then you started.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
I didn't feel it.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
And I love earthquakes knock on wood when they're not
killing people, but I love feeling them, you know.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
And Vince woke me up. I missed both of them.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
It was weird because it was really it was a
hard jolt that was loud, and then a shaking and
the uh and then the dog George was just like,
I demand answers now. She would not stop barking. She
was just like, I don't understand what just happened. I
don't like what the hell?

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Show me a chart and explain to me how on
earth the fucking entire ground just.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
The ground was moving and the noise.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
It's so funny that you bring up sleep training because
one of my suggestions or recommendations this week is about sleep.
It's all right, let's let's hear it. Okay, that's let's
hear it from me right now.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
This is here me. Oh, you're right, you go here
she goes.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
So this is actually recommended from my therapist, so you know,
it's like it's not just me being all who hi
and ever whatever. This this podcast called the Huber it's
called Huberman Lab. The student's name is Huberman, and he
just he explains a lot of you know, my like
a lot of stuff about the mind and how it

(06:24):
works and and studies and practices and stuff.

Speaker 3 (06:28):
So he's smart. He's super smart.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Like if my if a therapist believes in what he says,
you know, then it's like double time. So he she
sent me this this episode called Understanding and Using Dreams
to Learn and Forget. So it's almost like the sleep
cycles and how to use those and E M d
R I movement rapid desensitization something and ketamine and how

(06:54):
these things affect your sleep, how to get good sleep.
What matters with good sleep? It's not eight hours a night,
it's whatever works for you consistently. So if you always
get six hours of sleep, then nine hours isn't good
for you the next night, you know, it was really
fascinating and like taught me a lot because I'm really
obsessed with sleep as someone who has sleep apnea, and

(07:15):
it helped me be like, you got to wear your
seatpath even though you look stupid, so I highly can
see it. And it's also like a lot of his
episodes are like about childhood and how those things affect
you as an adult. So if you have kids, it's
it's great to learn that stuff.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
So sorry, it's you say it's a podcast though it's
a lot.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Of Yeah, so he has a lot of time it's
about different things. But this one's called Understanding and Using Dreams.
So h u b e r m an lab Hooberman lab.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
Huh Yeah, And sorry, is it always about sleeper It's
always just about a bunch of stuff.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
No, no, it's about a bunch of stuff.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
Let me see here about episodes. So, like the most
recent one is the Science of sexual development, the science
of emotions and relationships, how to increase motivation and drive,
And it's just science based learning in facts and kind
of psychology exactly, exactly. Okay, really cool, that sounds very cool.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, I know someone who worked in a sleep lab,
and they said that the big things when you're trying
to sleep is you have to it has to be
all lights out. Yes, you can't keep like a TV
on or keep a thing on.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
I'm not.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
I am blackout, curtain girl, blackout. And even though maybe
a little man. I love so many sleep masks that
I've stolen from all of the flights that we've taken.
That's right, I keep them all. And also good to
have it be cold in the bedroom.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
I've heard that too, But I hate being cold.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
But you get a big duvet, you're not cold.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
Just to air around, Okay, got it, Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
Air plugs are great.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
I love too, I feel some of them. If there's like,
if you're wondering how to make an amazing podcast, talk
about other pods casts that talk about sleep. I think
that's the that's kind of the key. When we give
our art.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Big talk, you mean riveting, riveting content, riveting sleep content.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Stick with you know, sticky. It's viral. It is what
people are saying. Now stimulate me with sleep talk. Oh,
keep your air conditioner, it's sixty seven degrees.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Nice signs A nice free stolen eye mask is a
great way to get yourself in the mood.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
So if you check into a retirement home that's very RESTful.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Now close your eyes and picture of me with a
seapat full face mask on, and then lully yourself to
fucking sleep. What are you listening to?

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Oh? I was going to say, Uh, I've gone back
to the rohmdas podcast, which is I just kind of
can't believe it's all sitting there as a free podcast.
If you are, if you are kind of like in
the mix with yourself feeling like you have a lot
of thoughts that are bumming you out, or doing a

(10:09):
lot of.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
Circular thinking or weirdness whatever, I think.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
That's where God, that's our podcast listenership essentially, I mean.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
I would think so. It's very modern. It's very how
people are living these days. We all live in our heads, right,
and we have these very believable conversations in our heads
about what's going on between you and other people, what's
going on with other people away from you, Things you're
jealous of, things you're afraid of missing out on. Whatever.

(10:40):
It's all made up. It's all made up, and it's
all different versions of things to try to make you
feel better or intentionally make you feel worse. Oh, it's
comfy there, dip in on some rom motherfucking dogs never
talk about it's I swear this stuff he says is
so fascinating and wise, and it is this thing of
just like all of life is suffering. The whole idea

(11:03):
is less suffering. Sure, and the way to do that
is to acknowledge that your brain makes you suffer. It's
your brain, and that you can exist outside of your
mind and the bullshit that goes on.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
I mean, we always talk about it and are aware
of it that it's not true. It's your brain is
lying to you when it's like that. But you and
I can talk about it all the time and still
believe it. That's how it works.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Doesn't matter. Yeah, when you're out in the world, it
doesn't matter when you're in that You know, when you're
in that CBS parking lot and you're just like what
everyone else got, beautiful and now I'm even uglier, Like,
that's not it. You don't realize that's what you're thinking.
It's just what's happening.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, there's no line in your brain, there's no observe observation.
It feels like you. Yeah, that's so funny that you
mentioned that, because on my tissue box of therapy, where
I keep forgetting to bring paper into my therapy session,
so I just write out my tissue box. We just
talked about how panic is and anxiety is a circle.

(11:59):
It's a circular thinking this is happening, this is catastroic,
I'm this catastrophic, I'm this, I'm that, And a great way,
it's like, here's a circle and if you pull the
pull it straight, it unravels. And the way to do
that is to make a list of your anxiety. So
it's pulling the string into a horizontal line and it

(12:23):
just immediately makes your brain unravel the circular anxiety. Another
great way to do it is just to splash cold
water on your face, even because it just jolts you
out of that. So something to try. Lists are my
fucking obsession, So I can do that.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, just don't make lists, and all the while continue
talking to yourself, because that's ultimately the problem is you're
buying into your own story. Yeah, Ultimately, the thing that
we're really afraid of doing is letting go of our
ego and just hanging out that's like the God forbid
that you just sit there. Yeah, God forbid you don't

(13:00):
say anything. God forbid you just see what happens. God
forbid that there's quiet and slowness and rest and you
know what I mean, and not frenzy.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
But I think for me, lists are a way to
put it aside. You know, like it's there if you
need to go back to it, You're not going to
forget it. You're not going to forget the obsessive thoughts
you're thinking of and they're there, so you can now
go take a nap or have a meditation without.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Hey, whatever works, you know what I mean, Like make
your list, do do whatever. But it's the idea of
interrupting the reality exactly exactly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, what are
you watching?

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Same stuff? Oh.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
I was going to say. There is somebody that wrote
in so last week or the week before I talked
about listening to westcor Yes and I specifically mentioned how
the person said they want to put me in the
Home for the bewildered, and a listener named Emer McNally
wrote in and said, lol, home for the bewildered is

(14:01):
a very normal thing to say in Ireland, what especially
especially lately, especially in West Cork, and then in parentheses
says I am from Cork and then it says all
hashtag that because I'm a nerd hashtag home for the bewildered.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
I mean that that puts an end to it. We're
moving to West Cork. The exactly right, all employees. Now,
part of the plan is that you Steven, sorry, you're
fucking moving away Ireland.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
Heartbeat. That's right, We're going to do it.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Guys, what are you listening to?

Speaker 3 (14:32):
Nothing?

Speaker 2 (14:33):
I'm reading a book called fire Keeper's Daughter by Angeline
Bully b o U L L. E. Y might have
gotten that wrong. And it's it's it's a young adult book,
but I love those, and it's about and a girl
named Donnis. She's eighteen years old and she's the daughter.
This is the description. She's the daughter of a dead

(14:53):
Native American man and a white woman and she's just
starting college and living between those two worlds.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
So she does fit into any of them.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
And how different those her families are and how they
feel about each other. You know her, she can't be
part of the tribal membership because she's not full blooded
Native American.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
It's just this really and.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Then she meets this fucking hot dude and like, there's
just it's her struggle, but you know, it's about the
drug problems in her community.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
Her friend gets murdered, and so there's.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
All the boiler alerts.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
You want to hold it, but no, it's in the description.
It's in the description.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
It's like kind of a true crime, not true crime,
but it's like a crime suspense fiction. But that's in
the description. So it's it's got a lot of layers
indigenous culture, and it's really beautifully written. It's a big book,
so you're going to kind of snuggle into it and
it's great. It's great fire Keeper's Daughter, and I think

(15:52):
it's going to be made into a movie too, which
is really cool.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
I started watching on Amazon Prime. There's nothing left, There's nothing.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
No, I'm still on Sopranos because I just don't care
about looking for anything else anymore.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
I cannot, like, I just want a series like that
that has a couple seasons to dig into. And I
feel like I've I watched everything immediately, like the second
Quarantine started. I found this Italian series on Amazon Prime
called The Miracle. It's from twenty eighteen, is when it

(16:28):
aired in Italy, but it's about these cops find they
raid a mafia like a mafia don's place, and they
end up finding this statue of the Virgin Mary that
cries blood and they can't figure out how it's happening.

(16:51):
And then all the different ways the people's lives that
are like basically come in contact with that statue, how
all the lives are affected. It's really well done. That
it's really well acted and directed, Like I was so
surprised at because usually there's kind of like, uh, there's
a style difference that stands out. We're like, oh, I

(17:13):
don't know, Like it's an interesting thing to see other
TV and then from other countries in the way it's produced. Yeah,
it's so well done. I kept going, I bet this
was on the HBO of Italy. This feels like big
time an HBO series. Yeah, it's so.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
What's it called again, the Miracle?

Speaker 1 (17:31):
The Miracle?

Speaker 2 (17:32):
That's great. Oh did you watch Eric Andre's new movie
on Netflix? I have not watched it. Well, let me
see what it's called. I just fad Trip Bad Trip. Okay,
Eric Andrey's new movie Bad Trip. It is so I
laughed so hard that Mimi jumped off my lap and
with her claws dug into me at the same time.
Tiffany Hattish is a fucking dream in this It's it's

(17:55):
just just watch it if you need a laugh, lighthearted.
We watched it on like a Saturday Afternoon or whatever.
It's like part prank show, which really stresses me out
all the time.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, but yeah, but you don't have that in that
in my mind.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
And like they're extra so they knew something was gonna happen,
so they're not horrified, which is like the only way
I can watch that kind of thing. And then part
road trip friend movie, it's like Lil Rell, who's so hilarious.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
A Eric Andres. It's just such a spirited, fun movie.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
I've seen tons of people on social media say the
exact same thing and just be like, I can't. I
don't remember the last time I laughed this heart.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Oh my god, I memi, I'm scarred for life because
of this movie. I'm gonna sue, but you know I
still loved it. Oh good, Yeah, anything else? I don't
have much either this week.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
Oh I had just this other listener Shana at Shana
eighteen on Twitter said just from about our last episode. Yeah,
this week's MFM episode was fucking fire with an extra
sprinkle of flower on the top and then a little
fun fire emoji and a heart emoji. Thanks Shana. Thanks,

(19:04):
We appreciate your your support. Uh it made me laugh
so hard when I first saw that.

Speaker 3 (19:09):
Should we do Exactly Right News? Sure?

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Well, So this week on Do You Need to Ride,
we have the great comedian Solomon Georgios, so hilarious. It
was a very delightful.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Episode fun on Bananas. This week, the performer Peppermint epic
epic person joins Scottie and Kurt to discuss the weirdest
news stories that they find. And they're on fire with
those stories. Turns out there's no shortage of them.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah, and uh, Aaron and Aaron this week on this
podcast Will Kill You cover the story of Henrietta Lax
and the h the HeLa cells and basically all of
the uh, the contribution that Henrietta Lacks and her cells
brought to the field of biomedical science.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
That's incredible story story.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
So guys, yeah, really great, cool.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
So and there's so much more on the network.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
More Please just look up Exactly Right Network on wherever
you listen to podcasts and support all our incredible podcasters
and friends and you know.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
And we've got new podcasts coming up. It's very exciting
this summer. It's going to be a podcast summer. It
absolutely is.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Hey and also, if you want a keychain, we have
a bunch of MFM keychains in the store right now.
They're all stocked up my favorite Murder dot com.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Check out the store, you know, get because you're going
to start leaving the house much more and you're gonna
need to remember your keys. I wonder if there's going
to be a whole system of things like when people
start leaving the house and going to work or going places,
and it's like I left my phone, I left my keys,
I locked my up to my.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
I literally locked myself out of the house today. I
didn't put it together just now, but cooking into the groomers,
Vince was gone. I you know, in my scramble to
put on my mask when she got home, I closed
our fucking door and was locked out. The groomer, lovely person.
It's just Rona grooming the fucking powerhouse celebrity groomer as

(21:11):
a friend of ours. Let me call Vince, who had
to come home from like the eighteenth hole golf whatever
he was doing and let me in. I felt so bad.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
You don't have any like kind of here's the way
I get in when I've locked myself out?

Speaker 3 (21:28):
Well I do now?

Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah, oh good.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
I feel like it's one of those things where I
still feel like this is a new house, even though
we've lived here for over a year, so we haven't
done anything like that. And when would we ever lock
ourselves out of our house? Is we're too smart to
do that? So I learned my lesson today.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
Well, let this be. Let this be the lantern that
goes in front of you with all the new things
are going to be happening like this as life becomes
more complex.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
When will that happen today?

Speaker 1 (21:57):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (21:58):
A Yeah, it started for Georgia, for me not so much.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
Let me be a lesson to all of you that
it's just in a moment you are fucking shit out
of luck with your puppy, clean clean poppy that smells amazing,
but not great.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
There really is nothing like having an area by your door,
having figuring out an area by your front door so
that you kind of have that habit built in.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah, yeah, it's lock box time for me. We should
do MFM lockboxes or m fake rocks where you can
put the key.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, the fake rocks, for sure. We should definitely put
out a some old line.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Of fake rocks real rocks too.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
We might as well trick people.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
I got nothing else, really, I can't really me neither.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Man.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
I'm trying to think of something that's been going on,
but there really hasn't. I mean today I actually went
out and sat because there was there's always like there's
a painter in the house. Now there's somebody working on stuff,
which is nice. So I just went down when the
dogs did and went out into my backyard that's kind

(23:05):
of a little bit like a small field, which I
never do because I'm like, oh, that's kind of where
the dogs go. Yeah, it's just like down there, and
I just took a cup of coffee down there and
was listening to the old round Us and sat there
and it was so just like looking at some nice
grass blowing in the wind and just like totally checked out.

(23:25):
It was really.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Uh, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
I think I'm coming up on being totally done with
being in quarantine. I'm just like, this is a wrap.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
You're there, they're there me. Yeah, I think that's s fair.
I want to be I want to be a homebody
because I like to be at home, not because I
have to be at home, and because I might get
deathly ill if I leave the house.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
Right, yes, but if those if those issues aren't there.
You're saying you want to do it by choice.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yes, that's what That's what I'm at.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah, yeah, I get that I want to do it
by choice, but I want to appreciate the choice by
doing something else, right, having to do other things and
being like, oh, finally I'm home.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yeah, gosh, it's nice to come home from nowhere for
the past year, oh, from my backyard.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Just something, just some kind of yeah, just something, some interaction.
The game night people are like, let's plan the first
in person game night. It's so funny, chomping at the bit, yeah,
to get those. But it's good because it feels like
everyone's everyone's getting or has gotten their first yes shot
or right around the corners. I think that's yeah, it

(24:40):
feels like spring fever or something, cabin fever.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
Does I mean Easter coming gone? So he hath risen.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Oh yes, thank you, he Hathris, thank you for bringing
that up.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
Great, who goes first this week?

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Stephen?

Speaker 3 (24:55):
I believe you do Georgia?

Speaker 2 (24:57):
All right, because I am ready? It turns out okay.
I thought this week i'd paid tribute to everyone's favorite
childhood bathroom reading material, Time Life Books.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, do you your mom?

Speaker 1 (25:15):
Let you have those books in the bathroom? I was like,
National Geographic, what's she going to talk about?

Speaker 2 (25:20):
I think they were for us. I don't think she
cared about them, you know what I mean? So y, yeah,
they were for us. It was either that or that
they weren't for guests. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:28):
We were excited.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Once we got sick of the back of the shampoo bottle,
it was like, all bets are off.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
So that's gross. Okay.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
So I thought I would go ahead and cover spontaneous
human combustion.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
Nice. Okay, great.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
You know this podcast is in its fifth year and
it could be whatever we want it to be. The end.
It's ours, It's ours, and I'll and yours too. So
my sources are history dot Com, a house Stuff Works
article by Stephanie Watson and Mark Mancini, Latham's Quarterly article
by Colin Dickey BBC, and PR Doctor's Review article by

(26:04):
Jackie rosenheck an an Anomaly Info, a Tampa Bay Times
article by Gabrielle Calisi, and a book called American Medicine
by John not So. Let's chart with the beginning that
one of the first known mentions of spontaneous human combustion
dates back to sixteen forty one.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
Oh did you know?

Speaker 2 (26:27):
No, there was this Danish physician named Thomas Bartholin, and
he publishes a piece about a strange medical phenomenon. Bartholyn
includes a story told to him by direct descendants of
a fifteenth century night named are you ready for my Latin? Yes,
Polanus Vorstius, Borstius Borstius, so thank you. As the story

(26:54):
goes in fourteen seventy, Voristus Maoristius is in his Milan
home drinking wine when he starts get ready for this
belching fire. No, sounds awful, mess fucking flames yep. Then
he burstens the flames and dies right in front of

(27:15):
his parents.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
So God, I know.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
So following Barthlin's peace about this, people start questioning how
something like this could even happen. You know the topic
of spontaneous human combustion becomes more popular after a noble
woman dies of mysterious circumstances. So what happened was on
an evening in early seventeen thirty one, the sixty two
year old countess named Cornelia Zangari Bondi of Cesnia, Italy.

(27:42):
We're back in Italy. She's eating dinner, it's a pasta
fagoule based on sopranos. I'm assuming when she suddenly starts
feeling quote dull and heavy, so she goes to her room.
She stays up for about three hours. She's talking to
her and like praying before bed. And it's possible that

(28:03):
the countess also sprinkles herself with brandy mixed with camouphore
oil in her bath, which I guess was a treatment
at the time, and she does that when she's not
feeling well, so contribution maybe. After the countess falls asleep,
the maid shuts the door and leaves her alone for
the night. The next morning, the maid calls out for

(28:25):
the countess. She's still in her bedroom, which isn't normal.
She doesn't get an answer, so the maid enters the
room and finds the countess. She's four feet from her
bed near the window and her body. This gets graphic.
Her body is in a quote heap of greasy, smelly ashes.
Her legs from the knee down are completely untouched and unharmed,

(28:48):
and they're still in their silk stockings, which that's highly flammable.
You know, I'm assuming I've never worn silk stockings, nor
do I ever rid of the from whatever teen hundreds exactly,
I've never taken a zippo to them, so we just
got that speculation. And three of her fingers are only blackened,

(29:10):
not burnt to dust. The Countess's part of her skull
is between her legs that it had fallen, and her
brain is still fully intact, so part like it doesn't
make any sense rhyme or reason parts burned others didn't.
The room is full of soot, it's all over. The
furniture has even made its way to the neighboring kitchen,

(29:31):
so it's extensive. And there's a smell in the room
and the thick yellowish quote fat substance staining the floor
and ceiling. And the bed has no fire damage even
though she was four feet from it. The blankets and
the sheets are turned up on one side of the bed,
showing that she had gotten out of bed seemingly calmly.

(29:53):
There's an oil lamp covered with ash on the floor,
but there's no oil in it, and there are two
candles on a table which are melted and late, but
their wicks are still there. So a religious scholar named
Joseppi Beyoncini oh uh huh is asked to investigate the
countess's death and determines that the countess died from spontaneous combustion.

(30:15):
Then Beyoncini investigates other similar fire deaths and in each
case rules out external sources of ignition like a lamp
or a candle or whatever, as being the cause.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
And he finds that the.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Victims torsos were destroyed, but their extremities weren't in all
the cases, and objects near the bodies were undamaged by
the flames, and that the fires spread quickly because of
the victim's lack of movement, like they're not you know
how you see in movies of running around on fire.
Beyoncini's findings are translated to English and those findings become

(30:50):
more widely known. People start researching spontaneous combustion, which leads
to more theories. So in as early as seventeen eighty three,
a new theory emerges, similar to how a string down
the center of a candle absorbs wax and keeps the
flame going. I don't understand that, but it sounds right.
An external.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Are they not talking about the wick?

Speaker 3 (31:14):
They must be. I don't know why this word string
is in there, but let's just go with it.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
I mean, isn't them the center of a candle a wick?

Speaker 3 (31:22):
It absolutely is the thingk you? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (31:27):
So, Similarly, an external source ignites the victim's clothes quickly,
so fat is released and reabsorbed into the clothing, which
helps keep the fire going. Spontaneous combuction believers argue against
this new theory, saying the fire would burn slow enough
that anyone would be able to put it out, and

(31:47):
the fire would never get hot enough to burn bones
into ashes, So that's their theory. This theory, which is
still around, is later named the wick effect, not the
string effect. Thank you, the wick effect.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
You know you know so.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
In seventeen ninety nine, a physician named Pierre Layar or
Layer reviews multiple cases of spontaneous combustion and finds multiple
reoccurring characteristics, including many many that old Be and Cheeney
found that victims are typically over sixty years old, female
and have some extra weight on their body. The victims

(32:25):
also lead inactive lives and drink excessive alcohol, So I'm
fucked personally in this review, Doctor Layar. I'm gonna go
with even ranks alcohol by its likelihood of combustion.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
So here's what not to drink. Everyone.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Gin is the most likely to cause it, followed by brandy, whiskey,
and rum. No word on beer or wine, so I'm
going to assume they're safe. Doctor Layar finds that the
scene of the spontaneous human combustion is usually near an
external flame, of course, like a candle or fire place,
which seems like it'd be kind of obvious. Most of

(33:03):
the time, the combustion is extremely rapid, typically starting in
the trunk of the body and leaving the head and
extremities intact, and the flames are often difficult to extinguish.
The victims typically produce a strong burnt odor, which seems
obvious logical yep, and the areas surrounding the body are

(33:25):
usually coated in that thick, yellow, greasy film. Not pleasant,
kind of gross, yeah. Doctor Lear also finds that the
accidents usually occur during fair weather more often in winter
than spring, which is odd and interesting. Basically, doctor Layar
blames spontaneous human combustion on consuming alcohol. That's his theory.

(33:48):
He says that the victims, which seems like a you know, neggg,
don't you think like not negging what's the word? Like
you're being attacked like, seems yeah, yeah, that's it, because
that the victims had drunk enough alcohol to make themselves flammable.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
Victim blaming. I see, you know.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Also, just having been around many drunks in my life
and having been one.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
Congratulations, I thank you.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
I don't have you ever seen one of them comverse
into flames?

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yeah, it's not like it's that get I get that
someone's trying to put a theory together and basically be like,
here's what makes the most sense, which is fine, but
I think would happen much more often if that's absolutely
it's determining factor.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
It seems so rare and so like unmistakable of what
it is. It's not like the you know, investigators would
come and call it something else, you know what I mean?
Even a small flame could have set them afire and
caused their bodies to be consumed quickly by fire. So
that's the alcohol theory. Those against the alcohol theory cling wait, sorry,
those against alcohol of course, the prohibitionists or whatever, cling

(35:07):
to this new theory and use it as part of
their message that drinking is bad.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
So it's political, they're gonna go that far with it.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah. And also, drinking is bad because you explode, That's
all I'm gonna say.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
And not only will it cause this, but y'all explode everyone,
And there's just people on the streets fucking exploding all
the time. Okay. The idea that alcohol is the cause
of spontaneous combustion continues for another century, So it sounds
like everyone was a lot of fun those times. Doctor
Lehar's findings are later contested, thankfully, and there are many
questions about the validity of his scientific methods. So it

(35:43):
was probably just him being like, there's a cat, it exploded,
you know, It's just he didn't really do research.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
Well, but isn't it But also isn't it the kind
of thing where it happened and someone had to make
sense of it? And so it was a cool job
to be like, how come there's legs, no body and
a goal in the last well, I.

Speaker 3 (36:01):
Don't even think it was his job.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
I think it was his want to prove that alcohol
was bad, and he was studying that and jumped onto
that theory, you know, using it.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
He's using it, so fuck him.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
So still, that's right. Still, the theory of spontaneous combustion
doesn't really hit mainstream until the nineteenth century, the spooky
nineteenth century, when none other than Charles Dickens publishes a
novel called bleak House. And in the novel right, Dickens
kills off alcoholic character Crook with spontaneous combustion. So it's

(36:41):
like taking current events and making them into your book.
So people do that.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Also, there's a wonderful dramatization of bleak House, so that
everyone's best friend Jillian Anderson is in, among many other people.
It's a very good adapt I believe you can stream
it on uh brit Box or Acorn.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
Promo code murder.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
No, don't use it.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
I've not literally watched.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
I've watched. Yeah, don't tried.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
Don't use that.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
But I've watched that the new adaptation of Bleak House.
I've seen it five times. Wow, I love it.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
You're still culptured.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
I love Dickens I love Victorian England. It's so creepy,
children had jobs. Ash was everywhere. People were exploding, and as.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Everywhere high collars. Children drink beer because water is fucking trash.

Speaker 3 (37:36):
Basically, yes, exactly. It's the weirdest time there.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Was just like there was like low level smog all
over London's people lived in like weird rooms filled with
hay and a bunch of other people.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
It was just really fucking bleek wash basins and fucking
all these things. Yes, crazy, hard pass, hard pass.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
I love it all.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
You can go, but I'm gonna stay here.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Okay, So after reading this bleak house novel, in this
I said that, in what might be the first case
of trolling in history, readers are upset that Dickens killed
off a character in such an illegitimate way. So they're
mad at a fucking piece of fiction trolling. They are
the shit out of him. And then I said, since Dickens,

(38:22):
you know, doesn't exist yet, the theory that you're not
supposed to feed the trolls and respond to them. He
responds by writing a preface to the book where he
says spontaneous combustion is a real cause of death and
that there are at least thirty historical cases proving him right. No, no, no, no, Nona.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
You're stupid.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, why don't you go to the library emoji emoji, emoji,
sad face, fire emoji, flower emoji go to help. So,
by the twentieth century, people don't seem to really talk
about spontaneous combustion anymore. Scholars than those in the medical
field seem to avoid the topic completely. If a strange
fire death occurs, it's likely attributed to either the Wick effect,

(39:02):
which is the old school thing, or said to be
the gases produced in decomposition being set on fire by
external sources. So essentially the person that had already passed
the gases in their system, which alcohol actually could totally
play a role in that. It's not the cause of it,
but you know, there's electricity in the air. We're all

(39:23):
fucking molecules and bacteria.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
And hold on a second, guy, I'm anietist. I'm going
to stop you, because here's the thing. The Wick effect
still is spontaneous combustion exactly. Even though they're saying this
is the reason it's happening, people are still catching on
fire by themselves.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yeah, that's like.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
The whole fucking point of it is like, however, you're
gonna be like, here's my theory gin or whatever.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
At the.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
I'll let you get to it. But I'm thinking of
a very specific picture that's in one of these books
that I'm sure you looked at.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
It's the famous one.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
I'm going to get to the famous one, which I love, Like,
I love that this is back when you couldn't really
prove it because even if it was in the newspaper,
it'd be like an illustration. Whereas like we actually got
to the point where people were able to start taking
like forensic photography of people who spontaneously combused.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Because it wasn't just back in the seventeen hundreds where
the drawing would be happening. It continues to happen. Yeah,
so let me tell us. Let's tell us about that. Well,
there are hundreds of reported spontaneous human combustion cases, only
around twelve have been investigated in actual detail. One of
the world's most heavily investigated case of possible human combustion

(40:44):
is from that photo, that of sixty seven year old Mary.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
Reeser re Ee SCR.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Of Saint Petersburg, Florida, which seems like could be highly electricity,
you know, all the fucking lightning around there, and shit,
maybe scientists again. On July first, nineteen fifty one, at
around nine pm, Mary gets ready for bed, takes a
few sleeping pills, as you do. She sits in a
chair and starts smoking a cigarette, which is kind of

(41:13):
her thing. No shame in the game. The next morning,
Mary's landlady named Pansy, which I'm so glad that has
has kept in the historical records because what a name, Yeah,
shows up to Mary's apartment to deliver a telegram. Pansy
finds that the apartment door is warm and the handle's
too hot to touch, as it would be in a fire. Like, guys,

(41:36):
test the fucking doorknoby before you go in a room.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
I mean, not every room, just potentially firerooms.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
No, go around the world, everywhere you go, always be
worried there's a fire on the other side those firerooms.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
You know how in your house you have the basement,
you have the family room, you have the fireroom.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
There's the fire room.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Okay, So the firefighters arrive, make the r inside, and
fat find a soot and smoke filled apartment with embers
still burning. When authorities are able to look around the apartment,
they find an intact foot and I'm describing this photo
an intact foot still wearing a slipper, on top of
a pile of ashes. They also find coil springs from

(42:23):
the chair that Mary was sitting on. They also find
part of her backbone and her skull, which has been
quote shrunken to the size of a cup. And I
don't know if that's her skull or her brain. It
sounds like it would be the brain, but that's what
is in the books. The tops of Mary's walls aka
oh yeah, not the ceiling.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
The tops of her walls.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
Different thing, are stained with smoke, and the electric switches
are all warped on the lower part of her walls
are clean, and the electrical switches down there are normal, well,
I mean flat. The fire and smoke rises, but you'd
still think that it would cover the whole wall.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yeah, that it would affect everything uniformly.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
There's also some melted candles with only the wicks left.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
Those.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
I feel like it's the wick's fault in every.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
Case, I would say, wouldn't just the wis still existing?

Speaker 2 (43:20):
Disprove and Lafleur's Karen explain this hypothesis to me, because
I don't get it.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
Didn't the person say that the wick theory was saying
that just like that, that it burned down. The way
a wick burns inside a candle is what's happening inside
a person's body.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
I'm still lost on this theory, but so, yes.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
That's what I was hearing it as. But then this
proves that the wick didn't burn that the fat of
the candle, right or whatever it is, the wax of
the candle is.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
What I probably was made of fat back then, I'm
going to back you up here.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Back in the sixties.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
No, okay. So, after Mary's death hits the papers, the papers,
the theory of spontaneous combuction is thrown around, and the
story makes national headlines. And that's when the police chief
asks for the FBI's help, which is like, bravo, we'd
like to see that. The FBI finds no evidence of

(44:16):
any accelerants used in the fire. They rule out lightning
striking Mary's apartment, so there goes my theory as well
as spontaneous combustion.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
They rule it out as well.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
The FBI says that they believe Mary died of the
Wick effect. They just keep fucking tossing that Wick effect around.
They alleged that the rayon acetate nightgown she was wearing.
You remember, nightgowns up until we were twelve, so like
the mid nineties were made of asbestos and fire retardant.
You know, we all had those. So they alleged that

(44:50):
the rean at State nightgown she was wearing caught fire
from the cigarette fine, and then they said Mary's fat
eventually caught on fire. However, will To Krogman, an anthropologist
and fire researcher, says that if the FBI's theory was correct,
that Mary's head would have exploded, not shrunk.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
So Mary's cause of death is ruled as accidental death
by fire of unknown origin. But even today people still
speculate that Mary was killed by spontaneous human combustion, which
seems like it could be both could be true. You know,
it's like it doesn't rule out that that exists. As
we were talking about.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Right, and I think the theory of that her nightgown
caught on fire and cigarette and blah blah blah, would
if you were on fire, you'd run somewhere totally, totally.
That's the thing about spontaneous human combustion is like you said,
they don't Yeah, they stay in one spot. It just happens.

(45:49):
And that's that, which means instantaneous. Big hot, Come on.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
Big hot, come on, exactly, come on. Another case of
possible spontaneous human and combustion happened on December twenty second,
twenty ten in your favorite place, then you, guys, it's
truly your one of your favorite places.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
True?

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Oh true, I'm not making Pittsburgh. No, it's not want
me to give you another hint. It's not in the US.
You're at well Galway, Ireland.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Oh I literally almost said Hawaii. That's my favorite murder
for you everyone, the Continental.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
That's our guarantee to you. We don't know it anywhere else,
and we refuse to learn.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
Go go listen to a geography podcast if that's your thing.
So Galloway, Ireland, December twenty second, twenty ten. So pretty recently,
around three am, a fire alarm goes off in Michael
Farady's home. So a neighbor here's the alarm, goes outside
and see smoke coming out of Charity's house. The neighbor
bangs on his door and gets no response, so heads

(46:59):
to a nearby house to get help. So inside that house,
in the sitting room of Michael Ferdy's home, police find
seventy six year old Charity dead, nearly burned up. He's
lying on his back with his head closest to a
lit fireplace. The only damage is to his body, the
ceiling above him and the floor underneath him. That's the
only damage. The fire from the fireplace never left the

(47:22):
sitting room, but the rest of the house is smoke damage,
so it's not like the house caught on fire, but
there's smoke throughout, which seems like it would have stayed
in the room if.

Speaker 3 (47:31):
It wasn't on fire, you know what I mean. Right
on the mantle piece.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
On the mantle is a pack of matches, untouched, unharmed,
so you think there's a fire going if that caused
the fire, obviously the pack of matches, as you would
often do as a kid, when you'd light the match
and then light the whole matchbook on fire, which was
the most fun we had.

Speaker 3 (47:52):
Would have just disintegrated completely.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
So during a nine month investigation, forensic experts determined that
there was no trace an excelerant again, and that the
fire in the fireplace.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
Was not the same fire that burned Charity.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
So I guess there's different types of fire, you know,
probably hotter or like less aggressive.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
I'm guessing your dad would know. Your dad would tell it,
would he.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
I don't trust her dad and fire anymore.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
I didn't even think it was a fire. I think
that was all. He would just leave the house every
day with a fire, a toy fire had on and.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Be like, yeah, that's right, and he goes sit at
the train station and pretend to be a fireman.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
That would be amazing. Doctor McLoughlin feels like he's he's
only quote left with a conclusion that Farrity's death fits
into the category of spontaneous human combustion, which, so finally
a doctor is like, yeah, it's true, and that's the
first he's ever seen in his twenty five year career.
So cool, let's finish with a case where the victim

(48:51):
doesn't die. And I remember reading about this and being
fascinated by it. Yeah, a forty three year old woman
in Orange County, California. Yeah, Steven and I have been there,
visited the Santa No Free State beach, beautiful place, and
happened upon some pretty rocks of cool colors, and so
you know, she took the rocks. The rocks were quote

(49:15):
Hamburger patty sized and cute, that's the description. So the
woman puts them in her pocket if what we can
only assume are her super fashionable cargo shorts as you do,
a few hours later, those rocks combust and they're still
in her cargo short pockets. They catch her cargo shorts

(49:37):
on fire, leading to her suffering. This is awful, second
and third degree burns to her leg, can you imagine,
as well as burns to her right hand. So you know,
I probably went to put the fire out. Her husband
came to her aid and subsequently also suffered first and
second degree burns to his hand while he was trying

(49:58):
to help put out the fire. Love love, their love.
Local health officials say that two of the rocks contain
quote A phosphorus substance, but there still is no definitive
explanation as to why they might have caught on fire.
So this, I feel like, leads us we can look
back on these other cases and wonder what they had

(50:18):
in the room what kind of stuff they collected, you know,
what things were made of back then. That could have
actually been the cause, right, But I haven't found any
research into it. So the local health officials say that
two of the rocks can okay, I told you about that.
I think what's more reliable than the local health officials
is that a nosy neighbor speculated to the press or

(50:41):
someone that the rocks caught fire quote due to friction,
which I think also is a great hypothesis friction lights.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
I mean I can say that too. What else? What
else does anything catch fire due to than friction?

Speaker 2 (50:56):
I feel like nosy neighbors though, or the new doctor,
you know.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
She's like hanging over the fence.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
Hey, hey over here, you know what I did for you?
Not the wick there? Can you be the drend nosy
neighbor period?

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Please?

Speaker 1 (51:10):
I was doing it.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
I know I'm a lot more.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
I know you're done quick, but here's the here's okay,
two hamburger patty shaped rock cutety cute. I have seen
YouTube footage of a guy standing in like a seven
eleven and his key catches on fire, and it's because
his phone battery that is.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
The most troubling fascinating video I've ever seen.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
It's crazy and it feels very similar to this. But
obviously I think if she had her phone on her person,
well it was, they would have said it.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Right, yeah, and it was also maybe she had her
beeper on her because it was her flip phone. Was
the nineties, No, this was twenty ten, so it has
a flip phone or a razor, you know, And I
don't know, so I actually I have always been fascinated
the story that I heard a long time ago, so
I was like, great, I must have updated it. I
literally couldn't find a news article that was past twenty

(52:04):
twelve when it happened. Not a fucking thing, which of
course leads me to believe that it goes all the
way to the top, right, because why else wouldn't we
have a better explanation than phosphorus covered rocks. There's no
period at the end of that sentence, And why would
said rocks even have been on a public beach, you know,
like that's I don't think that's naturally occurring, and it

(52:28):
is unless rock people want to and Karen want to
tell me the other one's great, great dag sad case.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Out like you've seen, you know, when like the the
every once in a while. This doesn't happen that often,
but like they'll be like a tide that you can
see at night.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
Oh and they're all green and lit on phosphorescent.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
Think that's that shit.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
So we're not geologists, we're not marine biologists, rockologists, none
of those. But we know the theory of rock and roll.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
But what I'm saying is that's why I'm just like,
I don't buy this to Hamburger patty rock theory either,
and maybe.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
There for two different reasons. But here's another piece of this.
No one but the ci oh I said this. No
one but the CIA and FBI know the truth, and
they're not coming forward. That's dumb. But here's something interesting. Well,
so some people speculate that these phosphorus rocks or whatever

(53:30):
they are, might have something to do with the fact
that nearby this beach where she found the rocks is
the Santa No Free Nuclear Generating Station. Oh shit, all
the way to them by the fucking top, and close
by as well is the Camp Pendleton Marine Base. Gasp

(53:51):
I did it first.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Also, if you've ever heard of flint, those are rocks
that you can make fire with as well, just by
slapping them together.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
Are you a rock doctor?

Speaker 1 (54:00):
Okay, look, look, I've known two things so far in
this story, and I've had strong opinions about the whig theory.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Okay, even today, let's close this out. Even day scientists,
they're still arguing over the possibility if it even spontaneous
human combustion even exists, And the general consensus seems to
be that it's not real.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
H it is it is. The general consensus on my favorite.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
Murder is that it is. And that's entirely and that's
the final word. And non believers often conclude that the
cause of the fire comes from an undetected flame source
like a matchsh.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
Question, that isanks so much.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
That explains none of it.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
Since most victims are supposed of supposed spontaneous combustion have
been found next to a fire source, non believers think
it seems likely that the victims accidentally set themselves on
fire while lighting a match or smoking a cigarette. So,
but for those of us who still believe in spontaneous
human combustion, the leading cause include dudes, this is my

(55:01):
this is what I think it is. Bacteria such as
methane in the intestines. What happens in your intestines is
so powerful and where I think we're learning so much
more about that, and even like mental health and how
they're you know, how they're connected. There's so much, as
you can tell, I'm the gaseout person you probably ever met,
so like there's a lot of stuff going on in

(55:22):
there that is.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
Still to be explored.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
So hopefully I.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Don't know what happens in the intestine states, No, not
in my case, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Other theories are static electricity build up, which seems totally plausible,
excessive consumption of alcohol, which I think can add to it,
but I don't think it's the cause, and or a
build up of acidtone, which can be a result of alcoholism,
diegities or a specific diet. So I'm going to rule out.
I'm going to say no more cauliflower for anyone. But

(55:56):
none of these theories have been proven true, so let's
hope there's more info someday. That is the theory and
stories of spontaneous human combustion.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
Woo woooooooooo, are.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
You scared now?

Speaker 1 (56:12):
I just gave myself a little moment to think about
the legs in the nylons and the shoes that are
that dude just stop like it's legs. And then a
chair that has a big black ashy thing on it.
And I'm not sure which story that one is from,
but I don't remember just staring at it.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
It's from the one we had talked about. Yeah, yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Just I love when people just try to dismiss.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
When yeah, it only makesually people like us believe stronger.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
So stop it.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Uh yeah, all right, good job, thank you.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
So this week, this this the murders I'm going to
cover are actually this story has been suggested several times
to us over the years, but especially because of what's
going on, you know, in politics right now, I figured

(57:11):
that it would be good to talk about.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
The murders from Paris is Burning. So, oh wow.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
If you've never seen the documentary Paris Is Burning, which
is from nineteen ninety and it is about the the
basically the Harlem drag ball scene in the It's like
through the eighties, it is one of the most unbelievably

(57:38):
amazing documentaries that shows you. It brings you into a
world you'd probably chances are never have the opportunity to
be a part of, or to be able to see
and you get to meet some of the most unbelievable
people and some of the most creative, dynamic, fascinating individuals.

(57:58):
And you can stream Paris Is Burning on I think
Apple TV right now. So if you haven't seen it,
go see it, because watch it. It's pretty legendary. I
think most people have seen it.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
It's life changing. It's like a whole new world that
you didn't now existed.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
If you're a fan of RuPaul's Drag Race, if you
are a fan of Ryan Murphy's TV show Pose, if
you like Madonna's song Vogue, this is.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
All straight straight. This is Paris is Burning.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
And the people that participated in the drag scene in
the eighties in New York City in general, but especially
in the Bronx and in Harlem are basically the creators
of that, the uncredited creators of a lot of current
of our current pop culture. And that's when we get

(58:52):
into those discussions about cultural appropriation and attribution and visibility
and all that stuff. This is all kind of part
of that and the importance of giving people credit and
kind of pointing to where things are from, and if
you don't know and people tell you where it's from,

(59:14):
then updating your kind of knowledge base and language. Lots
of different sources on this obviously the documentary itself, but
there's also a nineteen ninety four article from New York
Magazine by a writer named Jeanie Russell Kaisendorf. There's an
article at lis Obscura, which is a a friend of

(59:37):
the family, great amazing website at liss Obscura. There's an
article in the New York Times, Billboard Magazine, Film Daily
dot co. There's a blog called Zagria blogspot dot com
and their post is called a gender variance Who's Who

(59:59):
That's fun, which is very cool. Wikipedia and the reddit
Unresolved Mysteries.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Thread Love Love Love Late Night that's my jam.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Yeah right, okay, So essentially, okay, So Paris Is Burning
is about the Harlem drag ball scene and the Bronx
in the eighties, and it's a look into an incredibly
rich and ornate world that's also very rarefied, and a

(01:00:30):
lot of the footage you see in the movie is
from a drag competition called a ball. So we'll walk
through just the basics. A drag ball is a part
modeling contest, part fashion show, part dance competition and a
part almost like cosplay cosplay contest, depending on what category
you're performing in, and different houses of drag performers, which

(01:00:54):
are basically like their name for teams, but it's much
closer than that. A lot of the performers live together,
and the houses have a mother and that's the person
who's kind of in charge of the house. And so
there's a house of Ninja, house of Extravaganza, house of Cory,
house of Dupre, house of Labijia, pepa Labisia. I can't

(01:01:17):
say lebjia without singing pepa labijia. And essentially they they
perform in whatever you know, uh category, whatever category that
they're performing in, and then up against people. Then they
do dance offs, there's lip syncing, there's all kinds of stuff.

(01:01:39):
It's really amazing. So the website Decider has the documentary
and their description for it. At the end of it,
it's a very this very telling sentence that says Paris
is Burning provides an all two rare platform for the
under amplified voices that continue to indelibly shape widespread culture.

(01:01:59):
So that's kind of what this When this documentary came out,
and like my friends and I went and saw it. It
was that kind of thing of like, these are the
these are the art makers, These, these are the these
are the create the ultimate cre like the original creators
that are doing it for each other and for themselves.
And because that kind of art is so authentic and

(01:02:21):
from such a real place and such true self expression,
it's usually very high level, it's very good, and it
gets ripped off right, and that's what happens. So one
of the standouts of this documentary is the legendary drag
queen Dorian Corey. She is a mother of the House

(01:02:44):
of Cory, and she's the one who explains to the
audience what Shade is. Yes, wow, and and it's such
a good like everyone in it is. These personalities and
who they are and how they speak is just so compelling.
And at the she also gives I've actually read this

(01:03:07):
speech that she gives at the end of this documentary
on this show before oh yeah, and it where she says, quote,
I always had hopes of being a star, but as
you get older, you aim a little lower. Everybody wants
to make an impression, some mark upon the world, and
then you think you've made a mark on the world
if you just get through it and a few people

(01:03:28):
remember your name, then you've left a mark. You don't
have to bend the whole world. I think it's better
just to enjoy it, pay your dues, and just enjoy it.
If you shoot an arrow and it goes real high,
poray for you, I mean, the most legend being So
there's a story behind Dorian Corey's story that you do

(01:03:51):
not hear about or know about in this documentary. So
I'll set the scene for you. And in May of
nineteen ninety three, Dorian Corey is performing at Grammy Night,
which is an annual event at Sally's two drag bar
on West forty third Street in New York City. So, oh, sorry,

(01:04:12):
I don't know if I said already. The director of
Paris Is Burning is named Jenny Livingston. I don't think
I've given her she's the director. Okay, So this is
three years after the movie has come out, And so
Dorian was already a drag legend. She had been doing
it since the sixties. But in her performance that night

(01:04:35):
at Sally's two, she is wearing a white gown dripping
with pearls, with a maribou feather coat draped on her
shoulders while she lip syncs if I could by Regina Bell. Wow.
What no one could have known is that this would
be Dorian's final performance. A few months later, on August

(01:04:56):
twenty third, nineteen ninety three, Dorian Corey passes away from
a related complications at Manhattan's Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center. And
she's just fifty six years away. So in the days
leading up to her death, Dorian tells her close friend
and caretaker, Lois Taylor, who's also a drag queen, that

(01:05:17):
to repay Lois for her kindness, she can keep any
of Dorian's old costumes that she wants to keep, and
then she can sell the rest and keep the money. So,
about two months after Dorian's death, Lois brings some people,
some potential customers, up to Dorian's fourth floor apartment at
West one hundred and fourth Street. So as they're looking

(01:05:40):
through this back room where Dorian kept all of her
imagic a room full of drag costumes that she's been
wearing since the sixth for thirty years of drag costumes,
right and like so a huge closet of amazing queens.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
You know what that is?

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
Treasure historical treasure, true treasure, and so many You know
that the levels of feather boa in that room.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
Yeah, and the stories is that each of those outfits
could tell.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
I mean, yeah, that's it's a whole other movie. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
So as they're looking around this room, they come upon
a green plaid garment bag that's on the ground. So
the bag is very heavy. Lois can't lift it, so
she hands one of the customers a pair of scissors
and says, cut it open. The second they cut it open,
the most terrible smell comes pouring out of the bag.

(01:06:33):
So they stop and they call the police.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
So when the police arrive, they start they open the bag,
into everyone's shock and horror, they find a partially mummified
body of a man lying in a fetal position and
he has a bullet wound in his head.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Holy shit.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
Okay, So I'll give you a little of Dorian's background.
So Dorian Corey is in nineteen thirty seven and raised
on a farm near Buffalo, New York.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
Yeah. But she begins performing drag in her hometown at
a very early age, and in the nineteen fifties she
gets a job doing window displays at Hangerer's department store cool.
So she ends up saving it up with that job,
saving up enough money to move into New York City

(01:07:25):
to go to She studied art at Parsons School of
Design in greenwich Ville.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
I mean she had to be so talented just to
get those shops and creditial.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Yes alone, absolutely so, even though she was she had
already started doing drag, she is now you know, making
it in the big city and totally free to be
a drag performer. So she ends up getting a spot
in a cabaret drag act called the Pearl Box Review

(01:07:54):
with three other drag queens, Jay Joyce, Clytie McCoy, and
Tony Lafriski. So this group tours up and down the
Eastern Seaboard. This is yet another movie we'd all want
to watch, and Dorian is the group's snake dancer. She
performs every night with a live boa.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
Constrict I'm gonna I'm gonna have a cigarette outside when
when that show is going on.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
So during this time, Dorian's getting more comfortable in her
skin as a woman. She starts hormone therapy and she
undergoes top surgery so she can live her life as
authentically as she is. By the seventies, Dorian establishes herself
as a force in the New York City ball scene.
She forms her own house, the House of Corey, which

(01:08:43):
becomes one of the top voguing houses in New York
City and over there. Over the course of her career,
Dorian wins more than fifty grand in prizes from her
own performance at voguing.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
Holy shit, which is in today's money is like, that's
a lot of fricking money.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
Seventy fifty grand, yes, today's one point two million. Totally,
that might be. That might be an overnest.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):
Let's just say it because that sounds good.

Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
Okay. So the other part of this is, and you
you learn this as you watch Paris is burning, is
that most of the people don't have the money to
buy like for the fashion aspect of these drag balls. Sure,
there's some people that can, like somehow figure out a
way to buy like fashion items like designer clothes, but

(01:09:29):
most of the people part of what you're winning for
is if you make the clothes yourself, absolutely, which lots
of people do. And Dorian is known as a master seamstress,
and so the people that are in the House of Cory.
She always prefers people who can make their own clothes
over the buyers, because that's just that's where the art is,
that's what it's all about, and that's the real self expression.

(01:09:54):
During one of her most famous ball performances, Dorian wears
a thirty by forty foot cape that she designed herself,
which covers almost the entire ballroom floor, and then mid performance,
she takes the cape off and with the help of
a couple other people, transforms it into a tent that

(01:10:16):
covers half the audience. Oh do you think she won
that night? Yes? Don't.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
Oh my, I'm just picturing it in my head and
I want to cry.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
If you ask me to. She was like, okay, so
she ended up. Actually, these skills let her to crete
her own clothing label, Corey Designs, and on and off
the ballroom floor. Dorian Corey is a force to be

(01:10:49):
reckoned with. She's witty, she's wise, she's always composed. When
you see her in this documentary, she is so has
been around the block like she is, she's it seems
like the wisest woman in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:11:02):
Then they're done that, ask me about it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):
Yes, So when she makes her debut to a wider
audience in Paris's Burning in nineteen ninety, she easily becomes
one of the documentary's most cherished cherished presences. Of course,
So just a little bit about this documentary. It's one
of the most important LGBTQ plus films ever made, and
it gives viewers an honest look of the way in

(01:11:26):
which race, class, gender, and sexuality weave together and sometimes
come to a head in America. Named after the annual
Paris's Burning Ball, which was hosted by drag queen Paris Dupree,
the documentary zero's in specifically on ballroom and drag culture
in New York City in the eighties. But it isn't

(01:11:49):
just about the performances at the drag balls. It's also
you get to see the performers telling their own stories
about how different ways they've been shunned or cast aside
by family, friends, society, and how they basically came together
to build their own community and find finding love and

(01:12:10):
safety with each other.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
Corgeous.

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
So the people in the film aren't without their struggles,
but it's really about their resilience and their desire to
live fully and be themselves and be themselves in the world,
being in a world that basically doesn't accept them at
face value. But then on the ballroom floor, they have
this unbelievable opportunity to shine, to be adored, to be famous,

(01:12:36):
and to be successful in their own right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
So, as drag Queen Pepa Lapage says in the film, quote,
you can become anything and do anything right here, right now,
it won't be questioned. I came, I saw, I conquered.
That's a ball So it's really it's really cool. You
guys see that movie. Yeah, So so now we're back

(01:13:00):
in Dorian's apartment in nineteen ninety three. So the first
thing the police do when they find this body is
they start pointing fingers at Lois Taylor, and Lois immediately
shuts them down. She says something that's really funny, grips.
I guess she's very petite. So they were basically saying, like,
before the police can even finish their sentence of warning

(01:13:23):
her about like we'll be able to pick up your
fingerprints on this bag. Yeah, she cussles them out and
it's like, I fucking weigh one hundred and thirty five pounds.
I couldn't even pick that bag up, you will have
my fingerprints on the top of it. And that's it.
And don't you dare trying to you know, we called
you tyeah shit. So the body in the bag is
reduced to a partially preserved purple and yellow decay. The

(01:13:46):
body is wearing tattered blue and white boxers and just
one sleeve of a T shirt. Investigators discovered that the
body was preserved by being covered in baking soda and
wrapped tightly with tape and Naugahyde a fake life their
material before being sealed in the bag. Wrapped up along
with the body are several pole tabs from flip top

(01:14:06):
beer cans, which is a relic of the sixties and seventies.
And they officials determined that the body has been sitting
in that closet for at least fifteen years.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
How that's and how did the smell? I mean, that's
some like, yeah, she.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
Did some stuff, well I'm assuming she did some stuff
to cover it up, but that's not like the clothes
would you think would be permeated in that smell?

Speaker 1 (01:14:33):
I mean, but I think if it's one of those
just like you were just saying about the nightgowns and
stuff of the seventies. If it was a garment bag
from the seventies, it was a plastic bag that was sealed. Yeah,
so then if the body's wrapped and then the plastic
bag is said, I don't know. So the bar the
body is partially mummified. It's still decayed enough that the

(01:14:56):
only way to id the body is through finger printing.
You need all ten fingerprints to get a proper id.
So a fingerprinting expert named Raoul Figueroa uses his own
special technique to harden the softened delicate skin on the
hands so he can get ten clean prints. And when

(01:15:17):
he gets them, and when he runs those prints, they
get a match. And it's a man named Bobby Robert
Bobby Worley and his alias was Bobby Wells. So Robert
Bobby Whorley is born on December eighteenth, nineteen thirty eight.
He's the youngest of seven kids. His dad runs an
ice plant in Fairmunt, North Carolina. In nineteen fifty six,

(01:15:40):
Bobby's brother Fred moves to New York with his wife
and young son, and so Bobby ends up following him,
but he doesn't tell his brother that he's in the
city right away, and so then a couple years later,
nineteen sixty three, he gets charged with rape and a

(01:16:00):
and he gets a three year sentence that sing sing.
When he's released in August of nineteen sixty six, he
changes his name to Bobby Wells and a year or
two later, either in sixty seven or sixty eight, he
moves in with Fred and the family in the Bronx.
He's a heavy drinker, drinks vodka straight from the bottle
every night, and his brother Fred tries to help him

(01:16:23):
out of this wayward lifestyle that he's in, but it
doesn't work. And at the same time, Bobby starts a
relationship with a neighbor woman who has a couple kids,
and one day, three months after moving in with Fred,
Bobby and the woman get into a fight and Bobby
ends up assaulting her seven year old so the woman

(01:16:44):
threatens to call the police and with that he disappears.
That's the last time any of his anyone in his
family saw him was in nineteen sixty eight. So at
the time of the initial investigation, the police are reluctant
to give out more than the basic details about the case,
partly because it's an active investigation, and partly because it's

(01:17:07):
the case of a poor black man found murdered in
a drag queen's apartment, and that basically the authorities aren't
giving it the attention that it deserves. There's a reporter
from New York magazine. Her name's Jeanie Russell Coasendorf, and
she paints the picture of her nineteen ninety four interactions
with the commanding officer of the twenty six detective Squad

(01:17:32):
asking about the case, saying that they're standoff ish at best.

Speaker 3 (01:17:37):
By the nineties, so like it's been.

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
In the nineties. So when she asks if they've seen
the movie Paris Is Burning, the sergeant says it's not
on my list of home movies. So as a result,
no one's ever arrested or tried for the murder. Only
two people will ever know what happened, and that's Bobby
Worley and Dorian Corey, and they're both unfortunately long gone.

(01:18:00):
But there are several theories that have surfaced. Given Bobby's
criminal record and his reputation for burglarizing, most of Dorian's
friends believed that Bobby attempted to break in and rob
Dorian in her apartment and that she shot him in
self defense.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:18:17):
Some friends say that Dorian left a note with the
body that said, this poor man broke into my home
and was trying to rob me, but the police deny
ever that such a note ever existed. Good. Dorian did
have a gun a twenty two. This is according to
her friends, but many people in the drag community do,
being that she's a drag queen, that basically her assumption

(01:18:41):
no police officer would believe her self defense story if
she called the cops is very understandable. She's queer, black,
living in poverty. Basically, she's her only first line of
defense herself. Yeah. So the problem with this theory is
that investigators estimate the body was around fifteen years old

(01:19:04):
when it was found in nineteen ninety three, suggesting that
the murder took place around nineteen seventy eight. But Dorian
didn't move into the apartment on West one hundred and
four Street until nineteen eighty eight, So following this timeline,
some believe it's more likely that rather than Dorian taking
the body with her from one apartment to the next,

(01:19:26):
the body may have already been there when she moved in.

Speaker 2 (01:19:30):
Oh my god, I didn't know chills.

Speaker 3 (01:19:32):
That's the creepiest right, Either that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
Or she was hiding the body for a friend.

Speaker 3 (01:19:43):
Because he disappeared in the sixties, so well.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
His family didn't see him right after nineteen sixty eight.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:19:51):
To complicate things, further, investigative reporting after Dorian's death indicates
that she may have had a secret but passionate relationship
with Bobby or While covering the case, Jeanie Russell Kasendorf
interviews Bobby's older brother, Fred, and she asks him if
Bobby knew any transvestites, which was the word people used

(01:20:14):
at that time. So he says, oh, yes, I think
they had a relationship. I didn't know this was in
him until one night when he was living with me.
He was obviously stewed. He called our house well after midnight,
thinking he was calling his friend, and he talked and talked,

(01:20:35):
and I listened. So Bobby was calling his brother thinking
he was calling Dorian, is what his brother is alleging. Yeah,
and then he tries to remember Dorian's name but can't,
and that's when the reporter offers is a Dorian, and
he says, Dorian, that was it that's who he called.

(01:20:56):
So Fred says his brother was a macho guy and
he wouldn't beat surprised if Bobby had gotten violent with Dorian,
which is an all too common occurrence for trans women
who get into relationships with cisgender men who are ashamed
of their attraction to trans women and take their anger
out on their partners. So none of Dorian's friends can

(01:21:16):
ever recall her dating a Bobby. They they say it's
possible she kept the relationship a secret at Bobby's request,
which is also a common thing. Plus, later on, in
nineteen ninety four, Lois Taylor recalls some writing of Dorian's
that she found and gave to police, and basically, according
to Lois, Dorian was writing a story something about revenge,

(01:21:39):
and revenge wound up in murder. It was a fictional tale,
but there were a lot of real life events, including
mentions of the Pearbox review. So we don't know for
sure if that was a true story, if there was
just fiction.

Speaker 2 (01:21:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:57):
But what we can gather though, is that basically, when
someone's forced to live in society's outer edges, they can't
count on the usual systems that society has in place.

Speaker 2 (01:22:09):
To serve and protect them.

Speaker 1 (01:22:10):
So Dorian Corey and trans people like her still to
this day, have been left to fend for themselves most often.
So that's that's basically kind of like the headline. That's
the one that that that's the did you ever hear
of the story of Dorian Corey?

Speaker 2 (01:22:28):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:22:28):
The murder that actually is talked about in the documentary,
huh is the murder of Venus Extravaganza. And that's it's
so tragic and it turns the end of the documentary.
It has such a like a heavy sad twist in

(01:22:49):
what is ultimately such a kind of beautiful cult like
the whole drag ball scene, and all the people in
it are so incredibly live and positive and amazing and
with each other, and it's such a like it's such
a stark like left turn totally well, but we'll talk

(01:23:09):
about it. So one member of Dorian Corey's House of
Cory is the promising talent Angie Extravaganza. So under Dorian's tutelage,
Andy is so successful in the drag scene that when
the House of Extravaganza founder Hector Valley passes away in

(01:23:31):
nineteen eighty five, Angie Extravaganza takes over as house mother,
so his House of Extravaganza gains notoriety. Angie takes another
young mentee under her wing, and that's Venus Extravaganza. So Venus,
who's been a drag performer since the age of thirteen,

(01:23:53):
identifies as a trans woman and finds community in Harlem's
drag scene. But the budding dragstar's career tragically ends on
Christmas Day in nineteen eighty eight, when a stranger finds
her body stuffed under a bed in the Duchess Hotel.
She had been strangled to death and left in the
hotel room for four days, and she was only twenty

(01:24:16):
three years old. Got so Venus Extravaganza was born on
May twenty second, nineteen sixty five, in Jersey City, New Jersey,
to Italian American and Porto Rican parents. Venus was one
of five kids. She had four brothers, and from an
early age, she loved dressing up in designer clothes. Starts

(01:24:38):
performing drag in her early teens, but she keeps it
a secret from her family. She just wanted to live
life as a normal girl, but when her family catches
her dressing and drag they don't disown her, but her
identity basically becomes a thing they don't talk about. Yeah,
and because she doesn't want to embarrass her family, just harp,

(01:25:00):
she moves to New York City on her own when
she's fifteen years old.

Speaker 2 (01:25:04):
Fuck man.

Speaker 1 (01:25:07):
So it's nineteen eighty and she's introduced to the first
gay man she ever meets. Who's Hector Valley. He's a
vibrant Puerto Rican and founder of the ball scenes House
of Extravaganza.

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:25:22):
They connect right away. It's Venus's fifteenth birthday, so Hector
throws her a party and buys her a cake to celebrate.
So she starts. Venus performs, starts performing in New York,
and Hector isn't just a friend and a mentor, but
then he also becomes like her number one fan. In
nineteen eighty three, he invites Venus to join the House

(01:25:43):
of Extravaganza. Usually, a drag queen would have to perform
and win in a ball competition in order to earn
a house spot. It's all very you know, specific and
very competitive, but Hector likes Venus so much he gives
her spot anyway. Because she has a sweet down to
earth demeanor, and she wins the hearts of everyone else

(01:26:07):
in the house too. She says in the documentary that
she wants nothing more than to be a quote spoiled,
rich white girl because quote they get what they want
whenever they want it. But this desire, coupled with the
foolishness of youth and without having the safety and privilege
that being right, white and rich provide, leads Venus to

(01:26:30):
be somewhat careless with who she hangs out with. She
does sex work for a while to make money, and,
as she explains in Paris Is Burning, she might perform
sexual favors to get something she wants, like money for
clothes or purses, but she says that's not dissimilar to
what assists woman in the suburbs might do for her
husband when she quote wants a washer and drather. I

(01:26:52):
hope they would be aiming a little higher than washer her. So,
of course, sex work is not without its dangers, more
so for a trans woman. On one occasion, Venus is
with a client who, when he realizes she's trans, freaks out,
starts calling her a homo and a freak who's trying
to give him aids. Then he tells her she should

(01:27:15):
that he should kill her, and scared for her life,
she dumps, jumps out of a hotel window, and runs off. So,
when Venus's body is first found, authorities find their way
to Angie extravaganza and that's Venus's now current house mother
and mentor, and Angie has to confirm Venus's identity, and

(01:27:38):
then Angie is tasked with breaking the news to her family.

Speaker 2 (01:27:42):
Oh my god, wait, hold on a second, I think
I missed something. She jumps out the window and runs away, right,
that's where we left off.

Speaker 1 (01:27:50):
No, no, no, that was just an example of another
thing that happens, like another John got it?

Speaker 3 (01:27:56):
But when does she get killed?

Speaker 1 (01:27:58):
That's the thing I just said. I didn't go into
it because they don't know anything about it.

Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:28:03):
So it's just like her body was.

Speaker 2 (01:28:04):
Found, her body's found, and then she finds out and
has okay, got it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:07):
So here's a quote from Angie. We used to get
dressed together, call each other and say what we are
going to wear. She was like my right hand as
far as I'm concerned. I miss her anytime I go anywhere,
I miss her. But that's part of life, and that's
part of being transsexual in New York City and surviving Us.
In the years since her death, according to venus is nephew,

(01:28:29):
a Mike Pelagotti, who was just fifteen months old when
Venus was murdered, her family has gone through a combination
of sadness and guilt. They were according to Mike, they
were as understanding as they could be given the era
and the time, but even still, Venus's grandmother was always
so proud of her that she kept all of Venus's

(01:28:50):
dresses and trophy dresses and trophies after her death. God
and Venus's killer is never found. There's almost no publicly
available in for about the investigation, and her nephew, Mike
chalks that up to a combination of a lack of
forensic evidence and basically just the police not taking the

(01:29:12):
case serious.

Speaker 2 (01:29:13):
Of course, not.

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
The prevailing theory is that Venus most likely died at
the hands of a transphobic john because violence against trans people,
especially transsex workers, isn't treated with the same care that
the average homicide case is given. So Paris is burning
immortalized Venus Extravaganza as a real iconic figure in the

(01:29:36):
queer community, but as Venus's nephew would later say she
never quote envisioned herself becoming a transgender martyr, and in fact,
based on the quiet, vulnerable monologue that Venus delivers in
the documentary, she was focused on a much more hopeful
future quote I want a car. I want to be

(01:29:57):
with the man I love. I want a nice home
away from New York, somewhere far where no one knows me.
I want my sex change. I want to get married
in a church in white. I want to be a
complete woman, and I'm going to go for it. After
watching Paris Is Burning and seeing Venus perform at a ball,
there's no way to remember her as anything but a

(01:30:19):
complete woman. So those are the two murders from the
movie Paris Is Burning. And one of the main reasons
I wanted to talk about those this week was because
last week, on March first, was the International Transgender Day

(01:30:40):
of Visibility, So we'll talk about that for a second.
That was a holiday that got started in two thousand
and nine when transactivist Rachel Crandall realized that the only
existing holiday for trans people is Transgender Day of Remembrance,
which is about the trans people who have died or killed. Yeah, So,

(01:31:01):
instead of focusing only on trans suffering, Crandall sought to
have a day that honors members of the trans community
who are alive and thriving, which is a much more
hopeful example for transgender youth to aspire to. Definently so,
although visibility is increasing for the trans community, this year
alone has seen some of the worst anti trans legislation

(01:31:23):
being pushed across all the nation. States like Texas, Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, Utah,
and more have introduced bills that would ban healthcare for
trans youth, with one state trying to make it a
felony offense for doctors to treat trans youth. Other states
like Tennessee, Oklahoma, and North Dakota and more have introduced
bills banning trans athletes from competing in sports entirely. And

(01:31:47):
then this past Monday, April fifth, Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson
vetoed HB fifteen seventy, which is an initiative that makes
it illegal for trans youth in Arkansas to receive life
saving transfer related healthcare. He cited the bill as a
product of the cultural war in America, correctly asserting that
it creates new standards of legislative interference with physicians and

(01:32:11):
parents as they deal with some of the most complex
and sensitive matters involving young people. But that veto and
that win was short lived because this Tuesday afternoon in
April sixth, Arkansas Republican controlled House and Senate voted to
override that veto. So now physicians in the state of

(01:32:32):
Arkansas are legally prohibited from providing their transgender patients under
the age of eighteen, So transgender children children, They are
prohibited providing children with life saving, gender affirming medical care.

Speaker 2 (01:32:47):
It's illegal. Let's all say it. Fuck you. That is immoral,
that is that is not whatever fucking religious beliefs you
have that does not support them, You're a horrible person.

Speaker 1 (01:33:03):
So in the wake of the override, the ACLU put
out a statement saying this law will drive families, doctors,
and businesses out of the state and send a terrible
and heartbreaking message to the transgender young people who are
watching in fear. And Chase Strandio, who's a deputy director

(01:33:24):
for Transgender Justice with the ACLU's LGBTQ and HIV Project,
assured citizens of Arkansas that on CNN that the ACLU
is preparing litigation as we speak, and Strangio, I hope
I'm pronouncing his name right. Strandio also took to Twitter

(01:33:45):
after the override, saying, in all caps, we will sue you,
but then not in all caps, but you already hurt
so many people stop attacking trans youth. And he's right.
Republican officials of Arkansas have delivered a gut punch to
the children of their state. So in some ways the

(01:34:06):
dam which is already done, but legislature cannot erase human beings.
And if we are to learn anything from the Dorian
Cory's and the Venus Extravaganzas and the Marsha P. Johnson's
of the world and all the legendary trans role models
living and dead, it's that trans people are incredibly strong

(01:34:29):
and incredibly resilient people. So to every transgender kid out there,
we see you, we love you, and who you are
matters care. And so to help fight anti trans legislation,
we're going to donate ten thousand dollars to the ACLU
to fight this shitty legislation. A fucking men, and that

(01:34:54):
is being done in the name of Venus Extravaganza and
Dorian Corey and Marcia P. Johnson. Yes, we already talked
about with the Stonewall story, and that is my story
of the murders of Paris is burning for this week.

Speaker 2 (01:35:10):
Karen, that was beautiful. I'm so glad that you shared that.
Amazing transmen.

Speaker 1 (01:35:19):
Let me just say I have to thank j Elias,
who now works in our in our development department, but
he still, thank god, does my research and he nailed
this and knocked it out of the park. So thank
you so much, Jay, because that was really amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:35:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:35:40):
So I told him yesterday that's what I want to do,
and he was like, got it on it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:44):
I love you.

Speaker 1 (01:35:45):
It's so excited.

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):
Yeah, that's amazing. I'm so glad you guys did that.
We trans women are women, trans men are men. Don't
fucking forget it or get it twisted. I'm so glad
you shared that.

Speaker 3 (01:35:58):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:58):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:35:59):
And it's I think it's there's so many it feels
like there's so many things going on right now. The
stuff that like these attacks on Asian people, attacks on
trans children children like this is very it's extreme and
it's the kind of thing I think that we have

(01:36:20):
to be strong for people who are for the people
who are being attacked. We have to be we have
to take the action that we can, you know, all
of us in little ways. And if you if you
can't donate to the a c LU, what you can
do is the kind of thing that was on the
Murdering No Board that when when murderers were walking Asian

(01:36:48):
people who didn't feel safe in New York City, they
were giving people like, if you need to walk somewhere,
let me know and I'll walk with you. There's like
basic stuff that you can do with outreach. You can do.

Speaker 3 (01:37:00):
Visibility is so important.

Speaker 1 (01:37:03):
Yeah, and just kind of like and if I don't
know if there are people, I feel like the trans
issue really gets escapegoaded and used in this way where
it's just like we're talking about human beings. Yeah, do
your homework. Yeah, Like yeah, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:37:21):
Also like your home.

Speaker 2 (01:37:22):
It's also one of those things of like just you
think it doesn't affect you, but it all humans. Suffering
affects all of us. And you can't pick and choose
who you want to support because they look like you,
or they don't have a lifestyle like you, So you
don't have you don't have to bother Maybe you're not
quote unquote the problem.

Speaker 3 (01:37:42):
You're fine with everyone. It's like it doesn't that's not enough.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
Yeah, amazing, amazing job, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:37:49):
Absolutely a great job.

Speaker 2 (01:37:51):
Yeah. Let's end on a high note, you know, thank
you guys so much for listening or as always, humbled
by them, an areno presence.

Speaker 1 (01:38:01):
We love you dearly. Yeah, stay sexy and.

Speaker 3 (01:38:05):
Don't get murdered. Good goo bye, Steven's not.

Speaker 2 (01:38:12):
Yes, Elvis, do you want a cookie? H