274 - Arrested Behavior

On this week’s episode, Karen and Georgia cover the murder of Laci Peterson.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey you guys.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
George and I are so thrilled to announce Exactly rights
next new podcast, tenfold More Wicked, presents Wicked Words, and
it premieres Monday, May seventeenth.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
So Wicked Words is a companion chat show to tenfold
More Wicked that blends narrative nonfiction true crime storytelling with
in depth interviewing.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
It's so good, you guys.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Each week on Wicked Words, host Kate Winkler Dawson interviews
journalists and writers about their best true crime cases.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Guests include the filmmaker who investigated the Long Island serial killer,
the forensic psychologist who spent years exploring the mind of
BTK killer Dennis Rader, and a New York Times best
selling author who went to school with a serial killer.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Wicked Words premiers Monday, May seventeenth, but you can hear
the trailer today at the end of this episode, so.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Then check out the premiere May seventeenth on Exactly Right.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
And there's new episodes every Monday.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
Please subscribe to Wicked Words and the tenfold More Wicked
feed on Stitcher, Apple, podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
And follow them on Instagram at tenfold More Wicked. We're
on Twitter at tenfold more and on Facebook at tenfold
more Wicked.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
Enjoy you guys were so excited to bring this to you.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
A give up bye one, two three?

Speaker 3 (01:20):
That felt real nice.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
I was nice.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
That felt good.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Good start love hem. Hello, I'm welcome to my favorite murder.

(01:44):
That's Georgia Hartstone, thank you. That's Karen Kilgarriff, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
And here we are, here.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
We are all ready.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Let's sing the whole thing, sing the whole time.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
You don't really want that from me. I have a
terrible voice.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
But if we do it like the music Man where
you just kind of talking, do it like this and
you're letting more rhythmic than anything else.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
You're worry about. I was doing the march. Oh, oh,
got it. I know what marching is.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
What's going on?

Speaker 3 (02:20):
I don't know. We're still here, we're doing it. We're
getting through. Everyone knows what's happening. This is a podcast,
how about you?

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Goodbye?

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well it is.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
I think what you might be referring to as the
fact that California is slowly reopening is and people are
slowly still wearing masks, but going outside and going to
things and public things are happening, and lots of comedy
shows are starting with booked and concerts.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
Yes, yeah, I don't know if I'm reading things that
I don't know if I'm ready laugh, that's what I mean.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, it's an adjustment for sure. I'm visiting my family
at the moment. And it was only when I was
around a large group of people at a large dinner
at my dad's house that I was like, holy shit,
a year and a half alone, that's intense.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
Is it hard to be around people for like a
lot of people for you now? Like, not that I
have either, but no, I love it. I've wanted it
the whole time and just did my really.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
For the first time in my life, my compartmentalizing really
served me well, oh yeah. And it was only basically
when I was like at dinner at my dad's where
I was looking at all the people that I spend
almost every holiday with, every major anything, the solid group,
and I was just like, like, they're the most beautiful

(03:55):
people I've ever seen in my life, and it was
just a really lovely thing. But like, man, that's a
huge side effect and a huge you know, everybody had
a thing to deal with. But I think the people
that lived alone. I think we all just kind of
had to cope and make shit up. Yeah, and now

(04:15):
that it's slowly perhaps sliding into an ending, it just
is nice.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
I feel like you got you had a lot of pressure.
People living alone had a lot of pressure to like
be to have a metamorphosis and to like, it's you time.
And so there was no like, oh that sound that sucks.
That's got to be hard. Like in the beginning, you definitely.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Had that had what the pressure to metamorphosizes.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm beginning. It's been hard to like
be with one another person the entire time. Sure, and
I'm sure for a lot of people the whole.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Fucking thing was not ideal for any You could live
with eighteen people, well you could, I mean you could,
you could love there was of course, I and many
people were just like this is what I like. And
it's like, yeah, you like it for three months totally,
then it's over. Then you stop liking it for several months,
then you then you have no choice, then you go

(05:16):
into the dark night of the soul. There's just so
many things, but it's you know, it was just so long,
and I hope it I hope it stays like this
for a little while.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
What about the people and myself included, who got a
puppy or a baby cure the baby. I feel like
it was like a panic of like I need a
daily change please now you know?

Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
I actually spent some time with a baby. I know
a baby, a one year old baby who was born
in right after quarantine started, and her mom Jen, it's
her first baby, and she was at mother Day on
Sunday at Adrian's and Jen was like, she's a little
because this baby's so cute and she's walking and we're

(06:07):
all like, she's so big and no one's seen her.
And Jen's like, yeah, she's because she would walk up
to you and then walk away, or she'd walk up
and kind of not be into it. And Jen's like, yes,
she's she's a COVID baby. She's not used to being
around anybody else.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
But her parents and her grandparents basically.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
Wow, I never even thought of that. And yeah, oh
you know what I did read a cool thing that
was like I can't remember I saw, but it was
like I have babies who were born it's probably read
it babies who were born in quarantine and small children
are going to be really good at reading eyes and
like expressions through eyes because everyone's face was covered up. Yeah. Crazy, Yes,

(06:46):
it's going to breed a whole different kind of.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Human psychic babies A coming to you.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
That baby knows my thoughts.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
I don't have much this week. What do you have
of in the in the realm of rex or don't
don't do this? Do this? You know how we tell
everyone what to do?

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, I I have very little because we we had
basically roughly two blessed weeks off which were so, oh
my god, so nice. I look last this past week.
Last week was an actual vacation week for me, and

(07:33):
it was so needed and wanted and and revered. And
that wasn't the word I was looking for, relished. It
was relished. But the funny thing is I didn't watch
that much TV. My sister, you know, my sister and
I this was kind of funny. My sister and I

(07:53):
just started rewatching Arrested Development because it's just such a winner,
like it just gets the job done, does it's still
it holds up. I mean, there's definitely problematic stuff in
a twenty twenty one sense, but the jokes are amazing.
It's just so funny. Jason Bateman is. I'm it makes

(08:14):
me happy that he's doing other stuff, drama or whatever,
but he's one of the funniest people ever. I just
have so good ben his fans and silver spoons. I'm
sure we've talked about him before.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
Well, the straight man character is and for everyone else
to be funny off of you is like, I feel
like such an unsign because everyone wants to be like
the funny one and then the quirky one and over
the top one. When you have to play the normal person,
it's like you're giving everyone else some like a huge
well you would, I mean as a comic, I'm sure
you've witnessed that many.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Right, right, So then when you watch people who are
the straight man who are also hilarious, like he's Jason
Bateman is doing a masterclass of how you do that,
and like how underplaying is hilarious and how really you
can say it all with one look of the eye,
with one fur over the brow. But the funniest thing,
the reason I bring this up is because we got to.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
See my aunt Mary. My aunt Mary, who's the nun and.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
She goes Karen you know what show I was watching
is Arrested Behavior, and it is.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
So funny, I swear to God, and she said it.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
I corrected her, and she said it that way like
six next her.

Speaker 3 (09:23):
Ever, I was like arrest Development every time.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
I was like, you mean Arrested Development, but she because
it's on Netflix now, or like she's just discovered discovered
it on Netflix.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
I just love it.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
I love the members of my family who are of
older generations and they still are completely interested and engaged
in what like what's going on with the people, like
what's going on with the kids.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
The amount of times I'll tell my parents to watch
something and they fucking don't do it. Even my dad
is into r ving and like traveling in an RV.
He won't watch No Madland. I'm like, Dad, it wasn't
made for you. Well't watch it. I like, do you
think is it?

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Because he's a rebel of the sixties who's like I decide.

Speaker 3 (10:10):
When I watch a movie and which one it's going
to be. I think they're all a little overwhelmed by
having to go to different platforms to watch things like
they want. Is a pain, it is even for us.
And they think they're just like, even if they have Netflix,
it's just like not on their radar. They refuse. It's
a pain.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
And also, I bet you I've paid for like paramount
plus three times because every time I go, I'm like.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
I don't know what pass really is.

Speaker 3 (10:35):
Oh, it's just start over and Instans. Shit, I don't
fucking you know what I am watching on Netflix for
you younger kids who are okay with the apps. It's
my new We've talked about this and you laughed at me.
It's my new lunchtime show, you know what I mean,
where I need a quick bite and I don't want
to just sit there and I don't want to scroll.
So it's called Ginny and Georgia. And I'm sure you've

(10:57):
seen the photo. Is your niece watching it? It's a
little risque for her.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
This it's it's with this sister from Annie Annie.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
What's her name from Chit's Creek.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Oh that makes so much sense, okay, I mean beyond gorgeous.
I can't stop watching her on TV. She's like so beautiful,
I can't even handle it. And then the other actress
who plays her daughter, who I'm like shocked, hasn't been
on a lot of shit and a child actress since
she was little, because she's so talented. Her name's Antonia Gentry.

(11:30):
She plays I think she's like in her early twenties,
but she plays a sixteen year old I had no clothes,
Like this must be a Disney girl. It's not. She's
incredible and there's they're so it's like Desperate Housewives meets
Gilmore Girls. Oh she's super risk, but it's very much
like this is how teenagers are these days. And then

(11:50):
the mom's flashbacks into like her life and how she
became a little fucked up. It's like, I don't know,
it's a really great show.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
Wait no, am I right? It's Annie Murphy. Is she
the one that plays the mom?

Speaker 3 (12:06):
No? Brian, Brian Howie Brian Okay, Who's been in a
lot of stuff, but like you, it is just like
so beautiful you can't stand it. Let's see, she's known
for the Passage, the Exorcist, Batwoman, doll Face. She's been
on Plus one, that's a great movie. So just some stuff, okay,

(12:27):
but uh so talented, I mean not just gorgeous, she's
also talented.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yes, all important.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
Hm. So it's my lunchtime show, like my lunchtime. Vince
doesn't need to be here. I get a little embarrassed
when he's home and I'm watching it. There's teenagers tap dancing.
It's like a little glee too. Oh okay, so yeah,
it's a little glee too. Uh yeah, it's good.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
I wonder if that's uh, I'll if my sister do
pass by and see if it's appropriate for it.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
Could be a preteen and it's a tea mother teen
daughter interactions and how fucked up they got. When you
get a little older and your mom lies to you
about her entire life. Shit, Okay, that's good. I think
your your niece is mature enough to watch it.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
I bet she is.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
But she is also what I think is fascinating is
she's in the mode of she everything is on YouTube
or like FaceTime, Like she doesn't really consume television the
way we did at that age at all.

Speaker 3 (13:32):
It's a whole different thing. That was our babysitter. There
was no scrolling, there was no snippets of shit. So
like you watched an hour long episode of Golden Girls
and you'd already seen it fifteen times. Yes, I've bragged
you about this already, but that's I.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Invented TiVo in nineteen I would say nineteen eighty.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
When we were my dad was like, you have to
go to the hardware store with me, and I'm like,
but this is the one of the better Gilligan's Islands.
And I remember going up to push the button to
turn the TV off and going, I wish I could
turn this off. And when I came back on, it
was just frozen riding the spot and I could keep
watching it.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
Bill Gates turns out you lived in the northern California.
Was at listening in to your brain through the wall
and Bill Gates and Ventimo probably not. I think it was. No,
I think it was Elon Musk.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yes, okay, here's an anecdote. I do have something to
tell you that has nothing to do with watching anything
or listening anything. But we went to a softball game
of Nora's and when it was over, it was like
nine o'clock at night, turn around to get in the
car and I look up and there's just this row
of tiny lights going through the sky and they're as

(14:46):
small as stars.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
They're all in a row.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
They're following each other, exactly in the same space, away
from each other. And God and almost like a train
of stars rolling through the sky.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
And I'm just standing there. I go, Laura, look at this, and.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Then she comes here. She goes, what is that? And
I'm like, I don't know. I start taking video of it.
I have the video you have to put.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
A guy walks over.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
A guy walks over and goes, excuse me because he's
trying to get into his car, and I'm just standing
next to his car, and I go, did you see this?

Speaker 1 (15:14):
And then he goes, what's this?

Speaker 3 (15:16):
And then he watches for a while he takes some
video of it.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
I'm like flipping out him, like that was the edge
of an invisible spaceship, like I had all these ideas
in my head or spaceship.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Maybe there are lights.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Just yeah, we can't even comprehend what it is. And
my sister gets on the website. I love Pedaloma. It's
a SpaceX satellite thing.

Speaker 3 (15:40):
They need banners that are like, this is not a
UFOL though that's what aliens would do too. This is
not a UFO. Hey look over there, don't look up here,
talk to your niece. It just says nothing, it's nothing.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
It was crazy.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
It was like it was really I was like, oh,
I'm staying really calm while I witnessed this unident blah
blah blah.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
That's like, but I got it on video was really funny.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
Yeah, I think we should put a video up for sure.
Oh yeah, no, no, you know, as I say that,
I'm like.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
No, I mean you can.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
It's trees on the bottom and then a black sky
and then every once in a while I go, oh
my god or something like that.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
I can visualize that for like three minutes.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
So there's the video. There's the video.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
That's as good as it gets. Oh and I think
maybe you hear the guy walk up and be.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
Like, excuse me, oh my god? Yeah, can you tell off?
That's what's I was a real conspiracy as you don't
want to post.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
Do you understand start screaming in some strangers faith?

Speaker 3 (16:42):
Do it?

Speaker 4 (16:43):
Do?

Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Oh well, you know what if we're talking, they don't
need a plug. But Jason Bateman, Will Arnett and Sean
Hayes have a podcast called SmartLess that I listened to
on my drive up.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
That's just I mean, it's just delightful.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
They're all so funny and they get unbelievable guests. I mean,
they get like the coolest people on that show.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
I'm kind of unfair. It's well, I think they earned it.
I think it's fair. You're right.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah, I think they all have at least an Emmy
up between them. That's take or two, and that's you
know what in booking. In the booking world, it's all
about those words. But the conversation is they're they're great,
They're really fun to listen to. I think that's like
one of the things I love so much about podcasting
is like when people like that do it, then it

(17:36):
really is like, oh, this is your hane.

Speaker 3 (17:38):
Yeah, you get to you're enjoying this and we get
it like be a little moth on the wall and
laugh a young Yeah, we're the real guests and we're
honored to be invited.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
What's happening?

Speaker 3 (17:51):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Oh, I just thought of a book as well. Okay,
my sister got this book delivered to the house, open
the box and goes here you can read it first
where I was like, that was beautiful.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
That was beautiful.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, no one knows you like your sister and your
weird reading habits and stuff.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, And she was basically like, I know this is
going to be good, so you can start it first.
But it's Oprah's new book. Okay, So Oprah has this
new book she wrote with a research neurologist. He does
a bunch of stuff and his name is Bruce D. Perry,
and it's called what Happened to You? Conversations on Trauma,

(18:31):
Resilience and Healing. And this is the guy, Bruce Perry
was the guy who started the trauma conversation back when
no one knew what that was. And it's basically his
studies talking about when stuff happens to kids. Everyone loves
to talk about kids being so resilient and blah blah blah,
but actually, if you're traumatized in specific ways and in

(18:52):
certain ways, it actually affects affects your brain chemistry, it
affects your brain makeup and it it's just a fast
and it's written like a conversation. Yeah, you'd love you
would love it. I know you'd love it.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
Immediately buying this and oh, I bet she does the
audio obviously, the two of them.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
I'm sure she does. Yeah, pick it because it is
like a conversation.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, it's it's good.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
We're all going to do It's our new book club. Uh,
that reminds me.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
Let's have we'll call this Oprah's book club. Book club
where we just talked to each other about books Oprah.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
Recommends to her book.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
We're like the weirdos outside the window immediately for calling
it that. Take we take that publicity, spin it into
a brand new book club.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
Then we get canceled. Uh here's where here's what I
had space I'm in right now. I started listening to
the audiobook of Tara Brock's Radical Acceptance. Yeah, amazing, so good.
Oh my god, that's me. Oh my god, that's me.
And then I was like, I need a break from
this right now. And so I started the book that
you recommended, Say Nothing by Patrick rad and Keith Oh

(20:06):
Troubles in Ireland, the fucking civil war that's been raging
or had raged for a century, because I was like this,
I don't have enough acceptance right now in my life
to deal with this. I need a minute. I got
a chapter in Let's get onto the troubles.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, I get you know what, the troubles will set
your perspective. They will they will give you a little
sense of yah of what else is going on in
the world.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
I mean and I had no idea. And I'm fascinated
by war, and war isn't conflicts and the reason spot
like before and after them, and like I talk about
trauma though, the like normalcy of growing up in a
in a place where you didn't know who the enemy was.
It's all around you. You never know, want something's gonna
get blown the fuck up.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yep. And you know Flanagan who owns Largo, Yeah, grew
up in Belfast and he's told me God in Belfast
in the you know, seventies eighties, Yeah, and he said
he's told stories of walking down the sidewalk and then
the car bomb went off behind him, so he was
just he was like two blocks away, so he he

(21:15):
heard it, he felt it, but he was not impacted.
But like saw people get blown up as in childhood,
Like that was the standard.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
Photos from that from the whole era of the seventies
and eighties and then into the nineties. It's like the
photos of the children walking by armed men is like
in women because like the women were in it too.
It's just it's just mind boggling. And I just don't
ever think I really understood what was going on, because

(21:44):
you know, yeah, kid, But right, shit, dude, I know.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Well, and also I think for stuff like that, there's
this Yeah, it's the kind of thing you don't Strangely enough,
it's not it doesn't have the same it's almost like
the opposite of quote unquote true Crime. Yeah, because true
to me before, of course, this podcast True Crime was

(22:09):
just like the twelve weird serial killers we've all heard
of our whole life, and that was just kind of
like you that was the entry level, you.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
Know, version of it.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, but that was because there was part of it
that was like, this is this rare monster that lives
you know. Yeah, yeah, there's a dragon in that cave
and that's the only one. Whereas yeah, I'm you know,
that is basically what's wrong with humanity that we're still.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Doing this to each other.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
So, so many years later in this kind of organized
governmental global way, that's.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
I'm I'm like bumming and boring myself.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
Out well, and I suggest Radical Acceptance by Terror Rock.
It really is an incredible book, I will say, but uh,
you know, it's hard to work on yourself. A lot
of shit gets brought up and then you need time
to like process it. So I'm doing the thing I
always do, which is listening to true what you I

(23:13):
agree with you. What is true crime? Because it's yeah,
it's escapism and it's like safe because I'm watching it
through I'm watching it as a rerun, you know what
I mean?

Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, Well, don't you love Tara Brock's voice too? Her speaking?
Does she do the audiobook? I just find her and
her podcast if I know, I've plugged it before. But
if you want to listen to it, you just look
up Tara Brock and she has an amazing podcast that
pretty much anyone you listen to is just a nice

(23:44):
way to like spend a morning. That's kind of what
got me through the pandemic. Yeah, her some old ram
Das podcasts and then doing some browsing here and there.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
But yeah, it's good. It's you know what I mean, it's.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
Actually useful. It's not woo woo like you think it's
going to.

Speaker 3 (24:02):
Be now at all. She's so it's very useful. Yeah, yeah,
it's brain food. Does she does?

Speaker 2 (24:10):
She talk in radical acceptments about rain, the rain system
of dealing with hard moments.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
No, I haven't gotten that far yet. Oh it's good, Okay,
she she just she.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Knows her shit.

Speaker 3 (24:22):
She does know her shit.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
I started Sons of Sam on Netflix.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
Oh, good stuff, never wont so far.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
I think I'm about fifteen minutes in great so far.
I mean I had to pause it because I have
things to do here.

Speaker 3 (24:40):
I was thinking Sons of Anarchy, and I was really surprised.
And then I was like, well, we're almost down with
the Sopranos. So they've worn on the Sopranos. We'll get
into that. No, no, no no.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
This is the son of yet another true crime, true
crime documentary on Netflix.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
And friend of the Family.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
Paul Giamati does some of the voiceover in it, which
I didn't recognize right away, and it's just it's It
starts out with all this footage of New York City
in the seventies, which is unbelievable. It's so heavy, so
like just that thing where it'd be like a building
and then just an empty lot of rubble and just

(25:21):
someone walking their baby out in.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
The fattresses and kids playing on I don't know why,
kids playing on rubble with mattresses, old mattresses on top,
jumping into the rubble like it's ballpit.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
Hell yeah, that's.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
Totally what I think of the like mid the seventies
and the yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
It's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, it's kind of like what they tried to what
they made the Joker look like.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
It's that yeah, that.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
Look yeah, and then what so like sinister is meanwhile
uptown the fucking richie riches of the stock market or
snorting coke and they're rich shit, and like the disparity,
you know what I mean, like the Blackout documentary or
in the New York in the is it the eighties
and it's like the disparity of like what people went

(26:06):
through in the high rise buildings and then you know
whatever whatever part of towns that weren't like that. It's
pretty more than a million times in New York. I
don't know what's uptown. I don't know what's down Uptowntown's fancy,
Downtown sounds, I don't know where that is.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
I think you're right in general, Uptown is fancy, in
downtown is fancy?

Speaker 3 (26:30):
Is it's sorry because of the song Uptown Girl that that's.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
When we base our life on Billy Joel and his
lyrics and.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
Why wouldn't you he's the terra rock music. He knows
it's first ladies and gentlemen, Hi, cooky, but they do.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Talk about that blackout in this thing. I shouldn't be
talking about it because I haven't finished it, but I
like it, So.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Let me tell you what happens. Spoiler no great.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Oh, and our friend Kyle Russell has been doing more
lip syncs. My sister loves them so much that she
made me come in and lay down next to her
and watched them for a while where it's like, I, really,
it's harder for me to enjoy it because I'm.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
The one nah.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
And then but it's he's so funny, yeah, and delightful.
And in the most recent one, he does fucking what's
his name Bradley Cooper from The Lady from Star is Born,
rolling up and going hey, and then.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
He's yeah, is that the character?

Speaker 5 (27:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Really, And it's really funny.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
He basically is like now he's doing offshoots, he's doing
he's lip syncing things that don't exist.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
It's really delight Did.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
You see the one where you're in front of the
shining hallway and I'm in front of a ballpit?

Speaker 1 (27:59):
But yes, that's the first one. Laura made me watch.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
Steven what's his handle? It's Kiki with kiki. Okay, so
check check those that I've been posting. Some of them
are my favorite murder Instagram feed, I mean.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Light.

Speaker 3 (28:15):
May I point out about the Stay Sexy and Don't
Get Murdered sweep Steaks announcement to uh. It's like a
party for our paperback that's getting released that has a
brand new chapter from each of us from our upcoming book.
So Forged Books is our publisher, and they're giving away
brand new gift packs of like SSDGM swag to two

(28:39):
lucky winners.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
So this gift pack, it includes SSDGM bluetooth headphones, a
fucking hooray booklight, other cool SSDGM uh, the book, and
my favorite murder swag, and of course a paperback copy
of Stay Sexy, Don't Get Murdered with the new bonus

(29:02):
content in it, which is available now.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
Wherever books are sold. Say the paperback is out.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
That's kind of the point of all of this.

Speaker 3 (29:11):
Oh right, Yes, we have to say that this contest
is open to residents of the US and Canada only
because its legal things.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
And also we have to say that you need to
enter by May twenty six for a chance to win.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
And see all.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
Official rules at bit dot l wis forward slash SSDGM box.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
That's the that's the website.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, and remember that's all lowercase letters and one word
bit dot lee slash SSDGM box. Or you can go
to at forge reads and at my favorite murder on
social media for all those entry details.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
Okay, and we'll announce the winners on the podcast in June.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
But safestake, let me say, guys, a contest.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
That's fun. Tomorrow's your birthday, So Tuesday, so two days
ago when CISC goes up, happy birthday, thank you kindly, Yeah,
good job, a great year, Hope got how to celebrate
birthdays for real.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
My fiftieth birthday, I spent on Zoom with Lauren Adrian
playing some weird game I can't remember we played.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
I think we all.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Separately played.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
At home and then we're like, what was it?

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yazi?

Speaker 2 (30:33):
I can't remember, but it was very put together and sad,
and I remember my sister being like it was sad.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
It genuinely was for such a kind.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Of like you know, that's a big birth that's a
quote unquote big birthday. Yeah, And my sister like, I
will drive down there, and I was like, Laura, we're
a hot spot, like you're not going to come into
the COVID zone just because I've been around here for
half a century.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
We'll do it again next year.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
So I'm glad to say that it's basically been a
year and things have changed, because for a little while
there it didn't seem like.

Speaker 3 (31:13):
It really didn't. But everyone wanted to celebrate your birthday.
So we all have our shit together. Such a passion
for my birthday across this nation. Sure is great nation.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Thanks everybody for bringing it together and everybody wearing your
masks and everybody being so cool and getting back getting vaccinated.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
That's the key. That's the key. It really is way
to go. What other news do we have? Oh? Should
we talk about some exactly right news?

Speaker 6 (31:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (31:42):
I love when we do that. Just a couple of highlights.
We'll do it quick.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
This week on the Murder Squad, Chris Lambert, the host
of the podcast that George has been talking about quite
a bit, Your Own Backyard that covered the christ and
Smart case. He is on Monday's episode of Murder Squad.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
That's right, And on Lady to Lady this week, none
other than Millie and Danielle from I Saw what you did?
Another great, exactly right podcast they are on the episode.
I mean, what a bunch of fun people to listen to.
So please check that out.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
That's gonna there's gonna be a lot of loud laughing
on that one. You're gonna if you're feeling low, that's
gonna be the podcast you're going to want to listen to.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
Definitely.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
And Lady to Lady has brand new merch if you're
looking for that. Very cute, very cool. Yeah, do you
want to do your little merch plug?

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Oh shurelets still a little merch plug right now. The
featured merch on my favorite murder dot com. The store
is pint glasses everyone.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Hey, alas, put it in your freezer before you pour
your beer inside it?

Speaker 1 (32:46):
So what everyone up here does?

Speaker 3 (32:48):
Nice? Yeah, that is great, we did great.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
You know what, I think we're not rusty at all,
and I think we're completely in the pocket with this
podcasting thing.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
Oh cube, all, well there you go.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Who goes first this week? Steve hen Georgia goes first?

Speaker 3 (33:06):
Oh right, Oh my god, buckle your safety belts, put
your air mask on. What do they call tho. I've
been on a plane in a while, so today, I'm
gonna do the Lacy Peterson Wow story. Okay, let's see.

(33:26):
Sources for this research include multiple appeal documents, a study
conducted by doctor Isabel Horn and Diane Chang, an Associated
Press article by Kim Curtis, a news Channel eight staff
article the New York Post. I listened to an episode
of the podcast True Crime Obsessed, which was very funny

(33:48):
and very cool, and they did a lot of I'm
not going to do a lot of speculation in this.
I'm just going to give the facts. But it's also
me so of course I'm going to speculate a bit, but.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
It's hard not to speculate when we talk about this stuff.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
But everybody is well aware that on this podcast, no
one's claiming to know anything, so right, we're friends talking
to each other about something that we're interested.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
That's totally right. So is True Crime Obsessed. But they
also have like news clips and stuff from like documentaries,
and they just Nancy Grace is a fun topic that
they talk about, which I'm not going to get into,
so check that out. And then also a study led
by doc doctor May Wallace, and a Desert News article
by Pat Reevey, an Alta online article by Beth Sportswould

(34:37):
and which I use a lot for information from the
Evelyn Hernandez case, which I'll get into later on the show.
So here we go. On May fourth, nineteen seventy five,
in Modesto, California, Lacy Denise Peterson is born to Sharon
and Dennis. They divorce A year later, Sharon started stating

(35:00):
a man named Ron, and they stay together forever, and
Ron becomes a big part of Lacey's life as your stepdad.
Lacey is described as kind and good hearted. She's a
cheerleader in junior high, in high school, and after graduating
from Thomas Downey High School, she attends the California Polytechnic
State University, which is a really good school, right cal Poly?

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Uh huh Yeah in San Luisabetha.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
Which is actually where the Kristen Smart case happens too, correct, yep.
So there. She made hers an ornamental horticulture. She loves plants.
She I knows so interesting. I get to learn what
is that? The first thing I think is Christmas trees.
I don't think what is that? That's the thing, just horticulture.
So like she loves growing plants, she loves learning about them.

(35:47):
So my mom did. And you have to learn like
the Latin name for every single plant. It's very complicated. Yes,
I'm aware. So while a student at CAL, Lacey would
visit a friend who worked at a restaurant in Morrow
Bay where you used to go to and barf. Your
brain's out right, Now, what are you talking about?

Speaker 1 (36:05):
Are you talking to me?

Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah? So don't cut that out. Don't get that.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
I'm sorry, so confused because Stephen was telling me how
he's gonna cu to the Monterey So I was just like,
are you confusing me with Stephen? But you weren't even
here for that conversation because I was late. But where
do you think I barfed my brains out?

Speaker 3 (36:33):
But you used to tell you can't eat seafood because
you guys would drive down that long curvy road to
get to the seafood place.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
That's Badega Bay.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Got it, Yeah, leave on it. Anyways, just a tidbit
from Karen's childhood. And there she met her friend's co worker,
Scott Peterson, and they met in mid nineteen ninety four.
Immediately after meeting him, she tells her mom that she
had met the man she's gonna marry. Lacey made the
first move. She sent Scott over her phone number like

(37:03):
through a friend, and Scott called her. They begin dating.
Their first date is deep sea fishing, and Lacy gets
seasick because that's not a great first date.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
It isn't, dude, it's yeah, unless you are deep sea fisherman,
and that's yeah. You're used to doing it constantly, and
that's a bit difficult.

Speaker 3 (37:22):
It's a kin to like hiking on a first date.
Don't do that. So when Lacey's mom, Sharon, arrives for
a visit the next week, Scott is like super charming,
which is fine, you know when you meet someone's mom,
but he brings a dozen white roses for her, calls
her ma'am, you know all that stuff. As Lacey's relationship
with him is gets more serious, he decides to stop

(37:46):
following his dream of being a professional golfer in order
to focus on the business. So they date for two
years and in two thousand they moved to Medesto and
they buy a house there and Lacey starts working as
a substitute teacher while Scott runs a startup fertilizer company,
But he also begins the first of his multiple affairs

(38:08):
and the first how.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Long they've been married?

Speaker 3 (38:10):
Not long, not long at all. The first woman that
is known about discovered that Scott was married when she
walked in on Scott and Lacey in bed together. What
I know, so like not even the normal I walked
in on the affair happening, which has just got to
be a shock to everyone involved.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
She walked in on someone's life. Yeah, actually their regular
life happened, his secret.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
Real life happening, which Jesus so. Scott then later tells
a second woman that he was trapped in a miserable
marriage and that he was getting divorced. And then she
learns the truth because he graduates from college and Lacey
is there, as is the other woman, and she sees
Lacey give Scott like a passionate kiss when he graduates.

(38:58):
So soon after graduation, Scott and tells his wife he
wants to try his hand at opening a restaurant, and
so they decide to open like a chill Hamburger place
near the campus modesto campus. So in mid two thousand
and two, after three years of trying, Lacey finds out
she's pregnant. Her due date is February two thousand and three.

(39:20):
She's super happy. She's always wanted to be a mom.
In fact, she's so excited that even during her first trimester,
before she's even showing, she starts wearing maternity clothes, so
she enrolls in prenatal yoga classes. She brings Scott to
all her lama's classes, and they even choose a name
for the baby boy, Connor. Lacey's family thinks Scott seems

(39:42):
happy about the pregnancy, and he even goes to a
lot of her doctor's appointments. But then one of Lacey's
relatives asks Scott if he's ready to have a child,
and he says, quote, I was kind of hoping for infertility,
I know, which is just such a I know people
say different things and joke differently, but like to say

(40:02):
that to someone who knows Lacey, not like your bro,
it's just like such a weird thing, like, yeah, you
do not compute how awful that sounds, you know what
I mean?

Speaker 4 (40:13):
Right?

Speaker 3 (40:14):
Yes, So the relative isn't sure if Scott's joking because
he isn't laughing or smiling when he says that, And
despite that comment, Lacy's family thinks the couple has a
very positive relationship Lacey's stepdad, Ron says he never sees
them fight, which of course you kind of wouldn't write,
and says that Scott's always calm with Lacey, even when
quote she might give him a reason to be upset Lacey.

(40:38):
I know. Lacey doesn't complain to her friends about the marriage,
and her friends see Scott help around the house and
do nice things for her, so everything everyone thinks everything
is fine, which of course doesn't mean anything. Ever. On
December twenty thirty, two thousand and two, Lacey, who's twenty
seven years old and around thirty two weeks pregnant at
this point. That night, she calls and talks to her
mom on the phone, says confirms with Lacey that the

(41:02):
two of them will be coming over at six pm
the next night for Christmas Eve dinner. The next morning,
it's damp, it's gray, it's cold, there's some wind going
on in that area, which is normal. And that morning,
according to Scott, they watch Martha Stewart and then Scott
leaves to go golfing. At ten eighteen am, the Peterson's

(41:25):
next door neighbor, Karen, sees that their beloved dog, Mackenzie,
is wandering around with his leash still on. Karen notices
that Scott's truck is gone, but Lacey's car is still
in the driveway. However, she can't get a hold of
anyone in the house. There's no signs of activity in there,
so Karen just puts Mackenzie in the Peterson's backyard and
closes the gate. She tries to call Lacey, can't get

(41:48):
a hold of her at all. At around three forty
five PM, Lacey's sister Amy realizes by getting a call
that the gift basket that Scott said he'd pick up
that day hasn't been picked up, so Amy calls Scott
to see why he hadn't get the basket. He doesn't
pick up or return the call. At around five fifteen PM,
Scott calls Lacey's mom, Sharon, and asked if Lacey's been

(42:10):
at her place or is there. By five thirty neighbors
have noticed that Scott has backed his truck into the driveway,
and Scott tells Lacy's mom that Lacey's car is in
the driveway and their dog is in the backyard with
a lei. Shama that Lacey is missing quote missing. Sharon
tells Scott to call Lacy's friends and neighbors. Scott calls

(42:31):
Sharon back, says no one's seen her heard from Lacey,
and then Sharon tells her husband Ron to call the police.
So at around six pm, police meets Scott and Sharon
and Ron at a nearby park, thinking that maybe that's
where Lacey had gone to walk Mackenzie, and Scott tells
police that he and Lacey had watched television that morning.

(42:51):
Then they discussed their plans for the day, which is
that Lacey had planned to walk Mackenzie and then go
grocery shopping, and Scott had planned to go golfing, but
said that it was too cold and the weather was
too bad for golfing, so instead he went fishing, which
is just not the You just don't do either of
those things on a cold, windy day, right.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
Yeah, yeah, if it's too cold to golf then heading
to the harbor where the cold that doesn't make sense
at all, none.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
No. Scott tells police that he left the house he
went to get his boat from his the warehouse where
he kept it. He said he drove to the Berkeley
Marina and started fishing, and that after a few hours
he stopped fishing because it was too cold and rainy.
On his way home, he tries to call Lacey, he says,
on her home phone and cell phone, but didn't get

(43:42):
an answer. Let he left her a message, two messages.
He says. He got home around four point thirty, washed
his clothes, ate pizza, and then called Sharon to see
if she knew where Lacey was. An officer asked Scott
what time he went fishing and what he was fishing for,
and Scott like he doesn't really have a response to
give the officer. He pauses, he gives them a blank look,

(44:04):
and he mumbles, quote, mumbles some stuff without giving a
real answer, and when the officer asks what kind of
lure Scott used, he gives the police what's described as
a blank look, and after a pause is able to
tell them the size and color of the lure, which
doesn't seem that weird that you're like also the color
of the saying the color of the lure. I guess

(44:27):
maybe for certain fish you have certain I don't fish.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Yeah, I was just thinking of that too, where it's
like the second you went on and then I was like, well,
maybe he golfed with people and everybody else was too cold,
but he was fine, and so then everyone bailed on golfing.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
He didn't want to do it himself.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
Like it's easy to sit there and be like, that's weird,
that's weird, Yeah, because we're all have we all have
the benefit of hindsight, Yeah, and everything seems weird when
you think when the guy did.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
It, it sys And I think I'm surprised to find
out how many people don't think he's guilty, because maybe
it's because I know he got convicted that I'm like,
he's guilty. And it's been so many years and nothing
new has come out, but you know, it's all speculation,
I guess. So when Ron, the stepdad, mentions to Scott

(45:21):
that it wasn't the best weather for fishing, Scott just
walks off without responding. Lacey's cousin later says, I saw
more reaction out of Scott when he burned the god
darned chicken. And again we always talk about you just
never know how someone's going to react in a but
I think to this point it's like with because he

(45:41):
did it, you know, I'm just it's speculation, right, But
it doesn't mean, Yeah, it doesn't I want to say
it means something, but it doesn't mean something, But it's
just suspicious. There is a suspicious way to act, and
I'm you know, it's yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
Well, and it's always in the context of a person
that has potentially lost the person.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
That they're supposed to love the most in the world,
which I.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Think we would like to think there would just be
a kind of a standard of behavior, reaction, information, people
being able to remember details.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
But yeah, but we've also.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
Heard plenty of these stories to now know there is
no standard and it doesn't mean anything. Like you have
to get the what means something is the actual evidence.

Speaker 3 (46:33):
Context clues can help, but you know, all right, So
Scott also tells a cousin of Sharon's and two neighbors
that he had been golfing all day, which is not
what he told the police. So these are the context
clues I we're looking for. Is are is your story
not straight? Scott randomly tells a friend of Sharon's that
he quote would not be surprised if the police found

(46:55):
blood in his truck because he gets cut his hand.
He cut his hands all the time. So just like
offer that information up. At around six point thirty pm,
police search the Peterson home. Scott was reported to be
completely calm during the search, and there are no signs
of forced entry and no signs of a robbery, and
even Lacy's purse is still in the house. This reminds

(47:16):
me of the documentary about Chris Watts, and they have
footage of him in the house looking for the and
find the cell phone and find all these things, and
Chris Watts is just completely blank. He's a blank slate
and it's so crazy, right right, right, So in the house,
police find wet towels on top of the washing machine.
Scott says he took them out of the wash so

(47:37):
he could put his clothes that he wore that day
that he was fishing inside the washing machine, and there
police find the jeans, shirt and green pull pullover jacket
that Scott had been wearing while fishing. In the spare
bedroom closet, police find multiple Duffel bags that quote appear
to have been pulled off the shelf. One is lying

(47:58):
upside down, even like randomly, and police has Scott why
the devil bags are on the floor and he says,
because I'm a slob. One detective also notices that the
phone book had been left open on the kitchen counter
and it's open to a full page ad for a
defense lawyer. Oh no, yeah, not good. So police look

(48:23):
through Scott's truck then, and they find large patio umbrellas
and a tarp, and when they ask Scott about it,
he says that the umbrellas were going to be taken
to this to store them at the warehouse, but he
forgot to unload them, apparently. In the cab of the truck,
police find the Camo jacket that Scott was wearing while fishing,
and the jacket is dry, even though it was raining.

(48:47):
They also find a fishing rod, a two day fishing license,
and a bag. Inside the bag is a package of
unused fishing lures and a receipt indicating all the fishing
items had been purchased back on December twentieth, a couple
days earlier. And Scott also gives police a Berkeley Marina
parking receipt and it states that Scott entered the marina
at twelve forty five, sorry twelve fifty four that day. Meanwhile,

(49:11):
around seventy or eighty neighbors and relatives meet at the
park to help search for Lacey. They search until around
eleven pm that night, and then continue to search the
next few days. After they search the Peterson home, the
police asked Scott to go to the station for more questioning,
and Modesto Police detectives John Buehler and Alan Braccini, they're

(49:34):
the lead investigators on the case. They questioned Scott Peterson
all that evening. Scott repeats a story about fishing, but
adds more detail. This time. He says that he's never
fished in the San Francisco Bay before, but he wanted
to take his boat for a test run, and he
says he drove an hour and a half from Modesto
and made it to the Berkeley Marina by one pm.

(49:54):
He says he fished for ninety minutes near an area
called Brooks Island and then to I did to call
it a day because of the weather, but on his
way back, he called Lacy on their home phone and
didn't get an answer, and then he says called her
cell phone and left two messages. But then they tell
Scott there was only one voicemail on Lacey's phone and

(50:15):
he doesn't have an explanation. During this interview, police also
have Scott if there's any problems in their marriage or
he's ever cheated, and he says no. Bueller told ABC
News in twenty seventeen, quote, I suspected Scott when I
first met him. I was a little bit thrown off
by his calm, cool demeanor and his lack of questioning.

(50:35):
He wasn't like, will you call me back? Can I
have one of your cards? What are you guys doing? Now?

Speaker 7 (50:41):
You know?

Speaker 3 (50:42):
He was an insistent upon the fact that he had
a missing, pregnant wife and there need to be something
done right now, you know what I mean, which does
seem like the reaction I think most people would have.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Entirely yes, and it's like it's always the thing of
why are you talking to me when you should be
out there looking for my wife?

Speaker 3 (50:59):
Totally, I mean, that's yeah, But no other counterpoint or
the counterpunt is that he did agree to take a
light detector test. So but then again, like cocky people
who could or couldn't be sociopaths think they're smarter than
everyone and everything.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
Right, No, wait, did you say you were or weren't
going to be doing speculation?

Speaker 3 (51:22):
I said I wasn't with the caveat that. I am
Georgia hardstart and this is my favorite murder. So what
the fuck? I mean, Yeah, you should have come into
this knowing that's impossible for me.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
It's impossible in general, because this is what's fascinating about
these cases.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
The idea, the.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Very the very unlikely and outlying idea. But the true
consideration that he could be innocent after all of this
is really something to like. It's that thing to now
always consider where it's like, but if but if there
is no standard way of acting, but if there is,

(52:01):
you know, but if sometimes people are just what what
would you be kind of like a cold narcissist? It
doesn't automatically mean that you're guilty, right, So all those
things have to be kind of like pulled together.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
I mean, even the fact that like what used to
be evidence like blood spatter and all these things and
hair evidence isn't totally correct anymore. Even DNA like that
proves everything doesn't always prove any and DNA that proves
everything sometimes doesn't get you know, a conviction. It's just
it's so.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
There's a human element, and we want there not to be.
We want it to be by the book, just black
and white, and if only it could be. But it's
like that's what makes these cases and conversations fascinating and
needed to be very amateurishly speculated on, because it is
like that jacket is dry. If you know that it's

(52:57):
like a grade day in San Francisco, it's going to
be wet simply from even if it's not raining, because
that's how you are on the bay. You are right
there next to the ocean. They're all there is is
moisture in the air. So there's no way that jacket
would be not at least slightly damp.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
And why are you telling a bunch of people everyone
different stories, Like you're trying to find one that sounds right,
that's believable. So you're trying a bunch out on a
different bunch of different people to see which one sticks.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
Also, Modesto, I'd never really thought about this part before.
How far away Modesto is from the Berkeley Marina. Yeah,
because the Berkeley Marina is basically it's right across from
San Francisco. Modesto is central, you know, it's northern Central Valley,
So like there are tons of other places he could
have gone fishing besides the Berkeley Marina.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
Oh yeah, I mean, I don't know that topography geography very.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
Oh, I know it by heart. I know every small,
small and large by central California. But I'm just saying
like there are especially.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
Yeah, it doesn't make for six pm. And that also
means your pregnant wife is like prepping things for Christmas Eve,
wrapping last minute gifts, whatever they're doing. Yeah, you know,
it doesn't make sense. Even golf, Like even golfing that morning,
like when I have no plans is like is it
okay if I go golf? And I'm like yes or no,

(54:22):
well yes always, but it's you know, it's not thoughtful.
It's not thoughtful.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
It's not thoughtful. It's the holiday season.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
And also the thing that always gets me is when
there's a lot of extra so it's like I'm golfed and.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Then I fished.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
Well, now I know you're lying, because that's when you
know people are lying is when there's a bunch of
extra frosting where you're just like you don't need to
you don't need that many items, just say like b yeah,
I mean to me, that's I think that's also what
that Tim Rup lying show that I love so much,
where they're like micro expressions and all that kind of

(55:00):
stuff where it's down to a science. But that really
is when you can tell people are lying when they
have a bunch of detail that you're like, I don't
I don't care.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
Yeah, this isn't part of it. It's just like you're
over explaining something that if you didn't, even if it
wasn't even that big of a deal, it wouldn't even
be part of it, right.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
Yes, and and you you have this story, but you
didn't work the details out. So you you went fishing,
but you don't know what for.

Speaker 3 (55:27):
And you know the color of the lure.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
But you don't Yeah, but you don't know what you
were fishing for.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
Yeah, I just think you're I think that's just that's
so let's look. I know that we diagnose people on
here and it's not correct most of the time.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
But there's what is on here?

Speaker 3 (55:44):
What is so I'm going to say sociopathic tendencies or
narcissistic tendencies, which are a thing, and not diagnosing someone
to think that no one's going to question you because
you have an authority and you've never you don't use
get questioned anyways, and when you do, you act, you
gaslight and you act weird and you throw it back

(56:05):
at the person, And why how dare you question me? Which,
just like which doesn't work on detectives. You gotta hope, right, So.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Just side note, I am going to diagnose people and
I'm going to get them fifty.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
One to fifty on the show.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
So you stand warned me, stand warned criminals of the.

Speaker 3 (56:24):
Past who've already been convicted. Yeah, okay, we got twelve.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
The hard line slips you, I'm gonna stop commenting.

Speaker 3 (56:37):
Modesto police and firefighters they do an extensive search along
Dry Creek the day after Lacy's disappearance. In The search
includes helicopters, equipp with search lights, mounted police on horseback
and bicycles, canine units, and water rescue units on rafts,
which we'll get into later about what a huge search
this was as opposed to a pregnan woman who also

(57:00):
goes missing around the same time and how it doesn't
add up, So I'll get into that later. But a
total thirty officers are involved in the search, as well
as Lacey's loved ones volunteers, and they post flyers to
raise awareness of her disappearance. At this point, the media
is getting involved because it's Christmas time, so there's not
a ton of news to catch up on. But also

(57:23):
it's a pretty white woman who's very pregnant and her
husband looks guilty. You know, yes, yeah, So police go
to Scott's warehouse to search, and in Scott's boat they
find an eight point six pound quote homemade anchor that's
made out of concrete. It's reinforced with rebar at the top,
and there isn't a rope attached to the top like

(57:44):
there would be with a normal anchor. And they also
find multiple items with cement residue, a dustpan and pitcher,
and two large buckets. I don't know what any of
that means. Even the boat trailer has some residue on it,
and one detective says that it's it seems like a
tremendous mess for making one to eight pound anchor. Hey,
do you know if making anchors yourself is a normal

(58:07):
thing for boaters.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Here's what I'm going to say, speculate.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
And I'm going to speculate because I'm not a boat expert,
not a boat I'm not a boat No, you don't
if you have, if you've spent the money to have
a boat, a fishing boat that could that could actually
that you could put into the Berkeley you know the bay. Basically,

(58:34):
I bet you you went ahead and splurged for an
anchor that came with the boat. I don't understand. Yeah,
I would assume or it's a thing that you like,
it's an add on, you know what I mean? Then
don't you need one of these homemaking an anchor? Then
there would need to be an explanation of did your

(58:54):
anchor snap off? Did? What's the story behind that? Because
that that definitely it's into body dumping and body hiding immediately, immediately.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
And now the basic version of the Lacypeterson dot com
website is launched by the husband of one of her
friends and friends, family and volunteers set up a command
center and they record developments, they circulate information. Over fifteen
hundred volunteers signed up to distribute information and help search,
and in fact, they run out of maps of the

(59:29):
area because there's so many volunteers.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
Can I just say really quick that this reminds me
of I think Modesto might be a little bit bigger
than Pedaloma. But my lifelong friend Dave Mesmer grew up
there and so I know about it just through him.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
Oh yeah, and it is.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
The kind of thing too, I bet you another reason
aside from pregnant woman, white woman, you know, upper middle
class or whatever, is that same thing that happened in
Pedaluma one polyclastis peared where the entire town kind of
mobilizes because those things don't happen. It's country ish, it's
you know, it's small town ish. It's like the kind

(01:00:11):
of place where people live all their lives, they know everybody.
There's lots of people connected. Yeah, and it's that kind
of thing of we have to do something so community. Yeah,
there's real a very strong community can and that kind
of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Just those details you just gave kind of made me
think of that definitely. That's but again that's modesto speculation.

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
Well, the polyclass connection I think makes total sense too.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
It's the same way this town reacted where it's just
like you gotta be kidding me, like no one, no
one has experience with this before.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
And then like we can maybe we can find her,
you know, like like it doesn't like make sense that
someone's missing. I bet we can find her if we
look hard.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Yeah, we have to do something we all and we
all want to and so we're going to totally.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
So police speak Withcy's obstetrician and her friends and family
and they found out in early November, Lacey told her
doctor that she had started feeling dizzy and lightheaded while
she walked, and she said her feet were swelling, her
back hurt, she was tired a lot, which just sounds
like pregnancy stuff. But Lacey's doctor tells her to refrain
from exercising, that if she has to exercise, do it

(01:01:21):
later in the day. So she allegedly walked the dog
that morning. No one saw her doing so they just
found the dog on a leash, you know, making people
think she had walked the dog. And following that appointment,
Lacey had told her friends and family that she had
to stop walking and continued saying that through December. So

(01:01:41):
huge red flag. Police speak with the Peterson neighbors and
find that on December twenty fourth, multiple people were out
and about at the time Lacey supposedly was walking her dog.
Nobody saw her. However, it is weird a lot of
people saw said they saw her. Sightings of her walking

(01:02:01):
the dog later, but it was after the neighborhood, put
the dog in the yard. So that's just a simple
you know, no, you didn't kind of a thing. Not lying,
but you're incorrect. Police speak with the Peterson's housekeeper, Margarita,
and she says that on December twenty third, Lacey was

(01:02:23):
home when she arrived to work. Margarita says Lacey left
around eleven am and came back with groceries. And here's
something really telling, she says. Margerita says she mopped the
floors before she left for the day at two thirty.
One of Scott's descriptions of what they did that morning
and what Lacey was going to do was watch Martha
Stewart bake some cookies, take the dog for a walk,

(01:02:44):
and mop the floor. So huh, here's Margarita being like,
I fucking did it already.

Speaker 7 (01:02:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
Also, you're pregnant. You're very very pregnant.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
You're you're pregnant, You're dizzy. Yeah, you're if you exert yourself,
you're feeling all these like nigod, that's mopping the floor sucks,
and that you wouldn't be exerting yourself to that level,
especially if you know, I would imagine if Marguerite is
their housekeeper. She comes once a week, which means she

(01:03:16):
would note that the floor would be mopped totally.

Speaker 3 (01:03:19):
And then the other thing too, is like Scott Peterson,
She's just gonna be like cool with him going golfing
while the floor needs to be mopped, Like you know,
that's not a thing. So the next day, Scott has
another interview with the police, and police again ask Scott
if there's any problems in the marriage, like are you
having an affair? Scott says no. He suggests that Lacy

(01:03:39):
might have been robbed for her jewelry by a transient
and then kidnapped, and she did inherit some jewelry from
her grandma recently, so maybe that's why he brought that up.
Later that day, Scott calls the police and asks if
they're going to use cadaver dogs to search for Lacey
the day after she went a thing? Oh no, And
the police say no because Y's actually not assumed dead Scott.

(01:04:04):
After Christmas passes, police searched the Peterson's home again and
Scott's warehouse again. In the house, police find that none
of Lacey's jewelry is missing, except for a pair of
diamond earrings that Lacy could have been wearing when she disappeared.
Police also find traces of Scott's blood on a comforter
in the master bedroom. I don't know how much blood
that was, so that's just.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
Kind of traces. Sounds like not much.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
Right in the backyard shed, police find a blue tarp
and a cover for Scott's boat, and the cover has
chunks of concrete on it and a leaf blower is
sitting on top of it, and the cover smells of gasoline,
possibly from the leaf blower leaking, so believe that the
gasoline could have been used to deter those potential cadaver

(01:04:51):
and search dogs from smelling anything on the cover. And
Scott's truck, police finds spots at his blood. Scott explains
it away by saying he had cut his hand on
the truck door. In the truck bed, police find small
clumps of cement and a claw hammer with cement powder
on it. But I want to say that they didn't

(01:05:12):
find any of Lacey's blood at the warehouse, which there
might not have been any, I don't know at the warehouse.
In Scott's boat, police find a pair of pliers under
the middle seat and the pliers have a hair of
Lacey's clamped in the teeth, but only one hair. But
clamped in the teeth is not a good thing. On

(01:05:34):
December twenty eighth, dogs are used to search for Lacey's
presence at the Berkeley Marina and they alert to Lacey's
scent along the path that leads out onto the dock
and ends at the water. Police also searched the bay
area for evidence, but are unsuccessful. And then two days later,
everything fucking cracks wide open when this woman named Amber Fray,

(01:05:56):
she's a massage therapist from the nearby city of Fresno,
contacts the police. She says that she is in a
relationship with Scott. She thought he was unmarried with no children.
She says their first date was on November twentieth, after
they met through a mutual friend, so a fucking month before.
This is when in La I started paying attention to

(01:06:17):
this case because it was so like, you know, I
don't think I'd just seen anything about it, And then
it was like the fuck, here we go, Yes, you
know just that, yeah, do it. Your hand is I
want everyone to know. Your hand is in your your
head is in your hand. It's the same.

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
I've said this twenty times on this show. I just
don't understand now, this idea, this thing, this cheating thing.
You are starting a life with a person, you are
going to have a child with a person.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):
Like it doesn't. I just don't understand that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
I don't think break up, say you can't do it,
do something like.

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
I understand it's easier said than done.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
But it's not. And Karen, you don't have you don't
have sociopathic and narcisstemic system tendencies.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
Thanks you, You're welcome.

Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
I know you always think you do, but you don't,
which I think is a factor. There's a million factors
in cheating, but what's it called chronic cheaters? Just it
feels like you just you know, you don't think you're
gonna get caught. You don't think the rules apply to you.
You don't understand that your friends and families, emotions are involved.

(01:07:37):
You don't understand how detrimental to someone's life this could be,
to your own child, to your fucking pregnant wife. Yes,
and even when you get caught and in trouble for it,
you do it. Serial cheaters, that's what you just keep doing.
It I dand get it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
It's almost like this is the beginning of this life
where it's like it's only going.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
To get harder.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Child like the mentality of that is what. It's just like,
this is a project. It's a concept of starting a
family that you're only in step one and you're already
going backwards. That's that's what I don't get where it's
like if you didn't want to do it, or you
weren't ready or whatever, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Speaker 3 (01:08:22):
But there, You're right, there are people who are just like, oh.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
I'm just going to do this the whole time. So
whatever whichever way this happens, this is fine.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
I'm going to look for opportunities and if they happen,
then I'm going to take them.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
It's gross, it's super gross.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
And this is where there should absolutely be some sort
of litmus test or it's like, Okay, you're going to
marry this person, but real quick, we're going to put
the strip under your tongue. Oh sorry, you didn't pass,
So you just go fuck a bunch of random people
for the rest of your life and don't bring innocent people.

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):
Believe were alone. Absolutely, and I will there's this whole
like other fucking thing we could talk about about Amber
Fray and how she was portrayed in the media. You know,
it's to the course too. So this is like, you know,
way prior to understanding that even if she knew he
was married, it's it's not on her. No, his decisions

(01:09:15):
are not on her. However, she didn't know, okay. She
says that on their first date, Scott told her that
he had an upcoming trip to Maine and Europe and
that he'd be gone for some of December and most
of January, which wasn't true.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
See my point, Maine and Europe pick one. Oh, just
it's always double facts in the lives.

Speaker 3 (01:09:37):
Keep your eyes peeled. That's the extra frosting. If you're
going to go to Maine.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Why are we talking about Europe or Maine doesn't wouldn't
Europe kind of overshadow a main trip as And I'm
saying that as a huge fan of Maine.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
Totally that these are the things we have to keep
our eyes peeled. That's a great point. Amber says that
their relationship became serious enough for Scott to go to
parties with her as her date, and she trusted him
enough to pick up her twenty one month year old
daughter from daycare, which after a month of dating. I

(01:10:11):
you know, she seems like she really wanted to trust someone.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
She and well that she also felt like she felt
like she really knew someone.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
That's the difference.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
I will also say this Modesto and Fresno aren't that
close together, so so she was if he was going
to parties with her in her hometown, then he probably
felt free and easy to do that, because it's at
least I would get. This is purely guessing. I think
it's like two hours away from it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
Chi Okay. The other thing is that that just is
like typical love bombing, which is what sociopaths do when
they snare a woman or a man or vice versa whatever.
When they snare someone is love.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
Bombing, yep, where they're like, it's me the man of.

Speaker 3 (01:10:56):
Your dream, I love you all, I'm going to make
plans with you. It's been a month, you know, we've
all seen it. Yeah, so Amber tells police. On December sixth,
her friend found out that Scott was married, and the
friend told Scott that he has to tell Amber he
was married. By the ninth or she would tell Amber herself,
which is a good way to do it. I feel like, yes,

(01:11:17):
you know, because she needs to hear it from him.
So on December ninth, Scott told Amber while he was
quote sobbing hysterically convenient, that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
He was anyone anyone can cry, and anyone can cry.

Speaker 3 (01:11:32):
He tells our sobbing hysterically that he was married, but
he had lost his wife lost and said this would
be his first Christmas without her. So he piles on
the lies.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
He'd becomes you know what this that is a is
that a narcissist or narcissist trait where they take the
when they're found guilty, they turn it around and become
the victim. That's it's a way of deflecting of like,
you know you are you're confronting me about this right now,
but now I'm going to make you feel bad.

Speaker 3 (01:12:04):
Yeah, you're gonna be the one apologizing by the end
of this call. So he quote lost his wife and
he said that this would be his first Christmas without her,
which is fucking foreshadowing. And then he has to like
live up to what he said, probably, you know, and
he said it was really painful for him to talk
about and that's why he hadn't told her he was married.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
Wow, I know, I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
Two days later, Okay, go ahead, No, I say, like.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Everybody lies, we all do it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
Uh huh.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
That's a big one.

Speaker 3 (01:12:41):
I mean. And she could find out easy. It's the internet.
Facebook exists. I don't know if she could find out.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Yes, And you're doubling down.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
About like whether or not your actual living wife at
the time is.

Speaker 3 (01:12:58):
Alive.

Speaker 2 (01:12:58):
So it makes assume that he's been fantasizing about this,
that this idea of getting rid of people, or that
it's just that it underlines that thing of it's all
about him, know, it's just everybody else.

Speaker 3 (01:13:13):
I was just thinking about the fact that his his
the woman he cheated on with, came into their bedroom
and that's how she found out, is that he's not
good at cheating because he doesn't think he needs to
hide his tracks.

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
You know what I mean, because he's smarter than everybody.

Speaker 3 (01:13:28):
Because he's smarter than everyone else, and it doesn't seem
like he's learned much from that, you know, because he
doesn't think it'll happen again. So two days later, Scott
began after So two days after he's told Amber this
huge lie. He starts searching the web for information on
tidle movements in the San Francisco Bay. The next day,

(01:13:51):
Scott bought a fishing boat for fourteen hundred dollars cash
and then tearfully tried to convince Amber that he was
a recent widower. Like those all happen at the same time.
Amber continues telling police that on December fourteenth, Scott told
her that he didn't need a biological child of his own,
and that Amber's daughter was enough for him and he'd

(01:14:12):
help raise her as his own and would get a
sectomy if need be. So clearly not someone who wants
to be or is ready to be a father.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:23):
Amber says that on December fifteenth, Scott told her that
he had quote some business to take care of before
his trip to Europe, and he said that they could
stay in contact by phone, and on December twenty third,
the day before Lacy goes missing, Scott tells Amber he
was in Maine already duck hunting with his dad before
he went to Europe Information Information. Amber tells police that

(01:14:47):
although Scott didn't call her on Christmas Eve, he did
call her on Christmas Day, the day after she went
missing and said he was still in main Like, how
chilling when.

Speaker 7 (01:14:57):
Amber finds all this shit out, it really is it's
a err fucking scary. Yeah, it really is scary, Amber,
And especially because he's not in jail yet, he's out
and about. She has all this information that, I mean,
who knows if it would have come to light if
she hadn't come forward, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
Yeah, right, imagine that you're kind of slowly putting these
things together.

Speaker 1 (01:15:21):
That's god awful, Amberton.

Speaker 3 (01:15:24):
Yeah, she really felt safe because she was going to
the police and was like I need this, okay.

Speaker 7 (01:15:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:29):
Amber tells police that after a December twenty seventh phone
call from Scott, So after Lacy goes missing, she starts
she starts questioning Scott's whereabouts because she was like, things
are not adding up. She spoke with a police officer
friend before she knew Lacy went missing, and told him
about her suspicions, and on December thirtieth, the officer told
Amber that Scott was connected to a missing woman in

(01:15:51):
Modesto named Lacy Peterson. The officer suggested Amber call the
tip line, and so that's what she did. Her friends
seemed like level headed people, which is a great thing
to surround yourself with. Yeah in life.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
Yeah, high five to the friend that was just like,
tell her you have five days or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
It's not deadline. You tell her.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
I'm not gossiping. We're actually taking care of business right now.

Speaker 3 (01:16:18):
It's right.

Speaker 1 (01:16:18):
It's pretty cool.

Speaker 3 (01:16:20):
That is. So after telling police her story, Amber's like, look,
i will tape all future phone calls with Scott and
I'll just I'm gonna be a great actress and pretend
that I don't know anything about Lacy at all, which
is awesome. On New Year's Eve, of the visuals held
for Lacey family and friends of the whole community are there.

(01:16:40):
I know this is aside, but while there, Scott seems
to be quote very relaxed and in a very good mood.

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):
Pills. Huh, pills, pills.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
Oh yeah, good Benita though true, So okay. At the vigil,
Scott uses the backgrounds as his cover to call Amber
and tell her he is in Paris by the Eiffel Tower.
Stephen is covering his entire face.

Speaker 1 (01:17:09):
I remember hearing this.

Speaker 2 (01:17:11):
Yeah, you can hearing about this after the fact, and
that that one, and it's also chilling and.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
She's on the phone being like, okay, she knows, and
she's with him, and she's like, I ought to play
this off. It's incredible and what a fucking piece of shit.
He says he's watching fireworks over the Eiffel Tower. Then
on New Year's Day he calls Amber and says he's
still in Europe. These calls are all being recorded by police.

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):
Oh I know, okay, can it wait now go? I
think we were being very self consciously fair at the
beginning of this and about our speculations, and we were
pulling in all of our lessons, and we were discussing
it in the new way that we've learned to discuss things.
Here's the thing for Karen Kilgar. Okay, once we learn

(01:17:59):
the information that at his own missing wife's vigil, he's
calling the girlfriend a goodbye, I'm done.

Speaker 3 (01:18:07):
Yeah, And he's using the the hubbub of his own
family and Lacy's family and the whole community's sorrow to
pretend that he's celebrating. And he's like, you can listen
to it. He's like, oh, it's amazing, Like he is
creeping it all out.

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
It's it's so gross chilling, it's so gross it made
me refer to myself from the third person.

Speaker 1 (01:18:34):
I'm horrified. I'm horrified.

Speaker 3 (01:18:36):
I mean, we took you there.

Speaker 2 (01:18:38):
This is also I mean, there's plenty of similar stories,
but this is also one of It's one of those
ones where it always makes I think, because like I
know people from Modesto because I know the area.

Speaker 3 (01:18:50):
It just is like it works so awful, it gets
it's so worked up.

Speaker 1 (01:18:56):
The details are just disgusting.

Speaker 2 (01:18:59):
Yeah, okay, sorry, I had to look at my phone
because I became so obsessed with how far away is from.

Speaker 3 (01:19:10):
Because there's no traffic right now, so obviously it's an
hour and a half, but you know, wow, in daytime,
of course it'd be like two hours or something.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
Gotcha, because I was also like, that is so insane
to go to go out with someone in their situation.

Speaker 3 (01:19:24):
But it's like, okay, leave that in though, you guys. Okay.
So the next day after the vigil, Scott suggests the
police that Lacey had been kidnapped for her baby, Which
does happen. You've covered a case like that before, and
authorities had considered the possibility, and they send information to
hospital's nation why to keep a lookout for anything suspicious.

(01:19:47):
So on January third, two thousand and three, police show
Scott a picture of him and Amber together, which is
clearly from a Christmas party that's so recent, and Scott
says it's not him and the photo and that maintains
he's not having any fair wow. Uh huh. Like the
like the mind meld you have to do to think

(01:20:11):
you're convincing people what you're saying police detectives.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's a very special personality type that's like
doesn't immediately get the weird stomach feeling and that it's like,
oh no, a bad thing is happening. He's just like,
don't know, reality is not real.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:20:30):
Meanwhile, police find that Back on December seventh, just a
couple of weeks before Lacey goes missing and the day
after Amber's friend threatens to tell on him, Scott started
searching the classifieds for a boat and searched boat ramps
on the Pacific Ocean. He also looked over nautical charts, currents,

(01:20:50):
and maps for the Berkeley Marina and the San Francisco Bay,
including the area around Brooks Island. Uh huh. On December ninth,
Scott buys a fourteen foot eliminum boat. He doesn't register
the boat or tell anyone about the boat, and police
also find that there weren't many people even fishing on
December twenty fourth. So in my mind, I was like,

(01:21:12):
is rainy and windy and gray, seems like a cool
timed boat.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
But actually if you're especially if you're going to do
it in the San Francisco Bay.

Speaker 3 (01:21:22):
Yeah, oh, which is choppy and crazy, I.

Speaker 2 (01:21:25):
Mean freezing cold, choppy, dangerous. Yeah, there's no pluses here
unless there's somebody, unless you had like, you know, like
a lobster trawler or something that was like a big and.

Speaker 1 (01:21:39):
Stir I don't. Yeah, well it doesn't make any bold one.

Speaker 3 (01:21:44):
Yeah, and only three boat launch fees were collected from
December twenty third through the twenty seventh, meaning like fucking
everyone was like, this is not a time that you
boat or fish.

Speaker 1 (01:21:55):
Yeah, there's just no way.

Speaker 5 (01:21:56):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:21:57):
And also, you know the thing I was saying before,
there's other places he could have gone fishing, but the
San Francisco Bay is where the tide is so strong
and it would all take it out to sea. Yeah, right,
so that's just popped into my head off pot maybe
could have been the logic of it, which is you're
not going to go to a lake. Yeah, you're not

(01:22:18):
going to go to a nearby whatever. You're not going
to go to Stockton where it's kind of you know,
like I don't even think easy breezy. Yeah it's not
though it's not the same. It's like he wants it
to get swept out to sea.

Speaker 3 (01:22:32):
That's really good. And if that's insider information, you know that,
like not everyone knows that the undertow in San Francisco
is really really dangerous or that the everything gets swept out.

Speaker 2 (01:22:42):
I mean, ask me about low tide and high tide
because I know I know it all.

Speaker 3 (01:22:48):
I just asked someone. This is just a person.

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
This is just information from a person who drives along
like I drive along the Berkeley Marina as yeah, that's
kind of my drive home when I go to Pedaluma.

Speaker 3 (01:23:03):
And it's all.

Speaker 2 (01:23:04):
It all makes me not an expert in any way,
but I do have my theory.

Speaker 3 (01:23:08):
It's your podcast. Yeah, so guess what it's our podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:23:12):
This is this is my literal Bay area podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:23:17):
Okay. Police start to suspect that Scott put Lacey's body
in the boat and then slipped her into the water
and to test this theory. Here's this as bonkers to me.
They ask a district Attorney's office employee who was approximately
the same stage of pregnancy and wait as Lacey was,
to see if she can fit in the bottom of

(01:23:39):
Scott's boat. She says yes, I guess doesn't ask for
any cold hard cash for the fucking pleasure, and she
can fit. On December sixth, police ask Amber to call
Scott and quote drop hints that a friend has learned
the truth about something Amber needed to know about and
would tell her in a few hours. Which, yeah, I

(01:24:02):
think he's betting on her being an hour and a
half or two hours away that she's not going to
find out. But now the news story is blowing up
and he has to know, right.

Speaker 7 (01:24:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24:12):
So then when Amber asked Scott if he knew where
Lacey was now, he replies, quote, she's alive in Modesto.
Uh huh. Scott finally admits to Amber that he hasn't
been in Manor, Europe, and also admits to her that
he is married and says his wife, Lacey knows about
the affair and is quote fine with it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:33):
I mean just he's a disgrace discussed.

Speaker 3 (01:24:37):
And even if he even if, let's say that's true
and she does know, he's still a fucking liar because
he you know, yes, so later that I mean, yeah,
but yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:48):
Just at the other side of it, which is the
thing that eventually has proven to be true, which is
his wife is dead.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
Yes, by his hand.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
Yeah, and he's lying on her name, using her name
to try to justify shit with his mistress. This woman
who's who he's tricking. Yeah, Like the levels, like the
depths he's going to is just really it's like inhuman.

Speaker 3 (01:25:20):
And the fact that he doesn't even consider that maybe
she's already gone to police, maybe she's recording these calls.
He thinks he has her under his.

Speaker 1 (01:25:29):
Thumb because he's the smartest.

Speaker 3 (01:25:31):
Yeah, that's right. So later that month, news about Scott
and Amber's affair is made public, and Lacey's family, they
had been supporting Scott and even like ended a news
conference early because they started asking questions about his involvement.
They just immediately stopped supporting him, which is great, right.

(01:25:51):
So then on January twenty eighth, Scott sits down for
an interview with Diane Sawyer and he tells her that
Lacy is fine with the was fine with the affair,
and then he'd immediately told the police about the affair
that Lacey was fine with. He also refers to her
as was instead of is a couple times and then

(01:26:12):
fixes his mistake. And it's just I think that the
interview made everyone go oh fuck, you know, like immediately,
including Diane's or he tearfully in the interview refers to
his marriage as quote glorious, okay, And then when she
asked if Lacey knew about the affair, Scott said yes,
and that added that while quote I can't say that

(01:26:33):
she was okay with the idea, it wasn't enough to
tear them apart. God, now, huh. Around this time, police
set up a surveillance camera to watch the Peterson home,
and they also put GPS tracking devices on all of
his personal, unrented vehicles. And then between January fifth and
January twenty seventh, Scott drives around ninety miles from his

(01:26:55):
house to the Berkeley Marina five times, each time driving
a different view. While at the marina, Scott would drive around,
sometimes only staying for a few minutes. Suspicious dude.

Speaker 2 (01:27:08):
So theoretically, the assumption could be that he's going to
make sure her body isn't showing up.

Speaker 3 (01:27:15):
Of course, of course, so by mid January, Scott's making
some odd decisions. He gives thirty days notice that he's
terminating his boat warehouse lease, which isn't supposed to be
up until October. He also speaks to multiple realtors about
selling his and Lacey's home. He trades Lacey's car in

(01:27:37):
for a truck. He turns the baby Connors already decorated,
fully decorated nursery with nautical theme everything into a storage space.
I know the room had an elegant, tiny white crib,
a mobile of sailboats, and a booie that was tacked

(01:27:58):
to the wall that read will come aboard, like this
was ready for the baby, and he just starts using
the storage. Police find out that Scott's business hadn't been
doing well leading up to Lacey's disappearance. It hadn't been
making a profit. In fact, the business has a net
operating loss of one hundred and thirty six thousand dollars
and they owe their parent company one hundred and ninety

(01:28:20):
thousand dollars. Please also find out that in November two
thousand and two, Lacey had inherited more than one hundred
thousand dollars worth of jewelry from her grandmother, and Scott
had encouraged Lacey to have some of the have the
jewelry appraised, and on December tenth, Lacey and Scott went
to sell some of that jewelry at a pawn shop,
and police speak with the pawn store employees and find

(01:28:42):
out that Lacey quote seemed agitated and hesitant there, and
she pushed Scott's hand away when he rubbed her belly.
Oh uh huh, like tried to soothe her, and she
was like, don't fucking touch me. Amber continues helping police
by taping her calls with Scott, acting like she has

(01:29:03):
no idea that Scott was a suspect in his wife's disappearance,
and on February nineteenth, at the advice of the police,
Amber tells Scott that they should stop talking, and he agrees,
I don't really know why, because it seemed like they
were getting some good info. A five hundred thousand dollars
reward is announced for information leading to Lacey and Connor's return,

(01:29:24):
and then no one comes forward with information and given
the larger award. It seems unlikely then that there are
multiple people involved in Lacy's disappearance, because you know, the
more sizable the reward, the more likely some guy who
got paid thirty grand is going to be like fuck
this shit, you know, right.

Speaker 2 (01:29:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:29:42):
For the next few months, police continue to follow up
on leeds and sightings. Scott doesn't seem to take an
active interest in the investigation. He takes days to get
back to police when they reach out, but he tells
Stanley and friends that he's in constant contact with the police.
On April thirteenth, in four months since Lacy's disappearance, just
over a mile from the southern tip of Brooks Island,

(01:30:06):
a couple walking their dog find the decomposing Okay, this
is really rough. I'm just gonna go I'm gonna just
not give details. But they find the well preserved body
of the late term male fetus in a marshy area
of the San Francisco Bay. How horrible, It's just horrible, horrifying.
It's the baby's umbellical cord is still attached. Due to

(01:30:29):
a recent storm, the body had washed ashore with other debris,
and an autopsy shows that Connor had been in Lacey's
uterus for quote some time after Lacy's death, and the
medical examiner believes Connor hadn't been out of Lacey's body
for long when he was found.

Speaker 1 (01:30:47):
Just worst, I never Marrio, I never heard that detail.

Speaker 3 (01:30:52):
That's that awful. That's awful. The next morning, Lacey's body
is discovered by a woman walking her dog on the
shore line at Point Isabelle, which is south of where
Connor's body had been found and also around a mile
from Brooks Island. More horrible details Lacey. Lacey's body is
bar has barnacles and duct tape on it, as well

(01:31:15):
as residual clumps of fabric proved to be from light
colored pants, which matched the description of the pants Lacey's
sister had seen her wearing the day before Lacey disappeared,
although Scott had told police that when she last saw her,
she was wearing black pants, which I just realized means
he could have killed her the night before and then

(01:31:35):
disposed of her body that day. Didn't even occur to me.
An autopsy shows that Lacey died while pregnant, and she
had been in the water for three to six months.
The autopsy shows that the title Action and Marine Animals
are to blame for Lacey's missing body parts. Due to
the condition of the body, no cause of death can

(01:31:57):
be determined. Lacey's mother, Sharon, calls Scott to tell him
about the discovery of the bodies. Scott doesn't return her call.
Oh uh huh, I mean this poor family?

Speaker 2 (01:32:09):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:32:11):
When police call Scott to tell him about the discovery,
Scott does not go back to the Bay Area. He's
now in San Diego with his family and he doesn't return,
which I were not on a side, but that could
because of the media coverage. It could because he wants
to be at this family, could be other reasons. At
this point, police think Scott is going to flee, so

(01:32:32):
he had purchased a car with cash using his mother's
name and a fake driver's license. He had also altered
his appearance by growing a Grosco tea and mustache and
dyeing his hair and orange blonde color.

Speaker 1 (01:32:46):
Yep, I remember that so creepy.

Speaker 3 (01:32:49):
Police arrests Scott on April eighteenth, and with him Scott
has almost fifteen thousand dollars in cash and foreign currency.
He's got two driver's license, his own and his brothers,
a family member's credit card, camping and survival gear, a
lot of extra clothes, multiple cell phones, and more, including

(01:33:10):
twelve Viagra tablets.

Speaker 2 (01:33:12):
Ew So he was absolutely fleeing to Mexico one hundred
percent yeah, to live off the grid.

Speaker 3 (01:33:22):
A trial, the prosecutor says Scott wanted to be free
of Lacey and Connor, so he killed Lacey sometime on
the night of December twenty third or in the morning
of December twenty fourth. In order to cover up the murder.
On the morning of the twenty fourth, he lets the
dog out on the leash to make it look like
something happened while Lacey was walking, and then wrapped Lacey's
body in a tarp and put it in the bed

(01:33:43):
of his truck, covered her with patty umbrellas, drove it
to the warehouse, and put her body in his boat.
Scott then drove at the Berkeley Marina, went out to
an area near Brooks Island, attached Lacey's body to a
homemaid to homemade concrete weights and quote slipped again, I
don't know why that word keeps coming up. Her body

(01:34:04):
into the bay. Then Scott dropped the boat off at
the warehouse, went home and put the boat cover in
the shed under a leaky gas blower so any scent
would be obscured, and then washed his clothes and acted
like Lacy was missing. The defense says that police focused
on their investigation on Scott from the beginning and then
refused to look into other leeds or suspects. And to

(01:34:26):
prove their point, the defense tells the jury that there
have been a burglary on the Peterson Street the week
of her disappearance, which is very odd. They say that also,
is it? I mean, I guess Christmas time was probably
a really normal time for breakens. We've all seen Home Alone,
the documentary that like the canvas the area and like

(01:34:49):
steel shit, yeah it out of town, right.

Speaker 1 (01:34:53):
I think I think the difference between a b and e.

Speaker 2 (01:34:57):
Uh huh that's technical to and a kidnap murder, which
is what they're trying to say those two things are connected,
I don't think so, or at least that doesn't seem common.
Not to say things can't get cased or pre broken
into or anything like that, but like that's that's basically

(01:35:20):
trying to clump all of the crimes that happen in
a city into one.

Speaker 3 (01:35:24):
Here's though, what here's what. The counterpoint to that is,
people who think you didn't do it is that she
was home, they tried to be any she caught them,
they killed her, but her car was in the driveway.
You don't. I don't think you break into people's homes
and their cars in the driveway and there's a dog
home like those are two deterrents.

Speaker 2 (01:35:43):
And I don't think that after you kill them, you
drive them two hours away.

Speaker 1 (01:35:49):
Get rid of the body.

Speaker 3 (01:35:50):
Because yes, forget, Yes, it's so much.

Speaker 1 (01:35:54):
Gotta hate this story so much.

Speaker 3 (01:35:56):
That's why we haven't done it so long, and I'm
doing it.

Speaker 7 (01:35:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:36:00):
They also say that on December twenty third, a stranger
was walking around the neighborhood asking for money and possibly
casing houses for future burglaries. That sounds like a next
door app yeh suck and post where then everyone yells
at that person rightly so for being an asshole.

Speaker 1 (01:36:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:36:19):
The defense says the police didn't follow up to see
if there was a connection between Lacy's murder and the
burglary or the stranger, but they did catch the burglars,
and I'm assuming they must have been like this is
not legit or they're not suspects somehow, which I think
is another argument is that the police didn't do a
great job with an immediately saw Scott as a suspect.

(01:36:42):
But it's also like, well, Scott was the main suspect
and never helped to clear himself of being such.

Speaker 2 (01:36:48):
You know this, This is a thing that I think
happens in discussions like this sometimes where they I feel
like the defense of people who are guilty, like to
in arguments from cases where people have been wrongfully convicted,
and then start going you did this thing, where it's like,
but actually, the all of the footsteps lead right up

(01:37:12):
to this man's door, and this isn't Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:37:17):
Also, he's on the top of the list. He never
gets off of that top of the list because over
and over things are pointing to him. So you look
into numbers two, three, four, five, there's nothing that would
kick him out of first place, correct, you know? So

(01:37:37):
that seems like how investigations work. Yeap, So that jury
does find Scott guilty of one count of first degree
murder for killing Lacey and one count of second degree
murder for killing their unborn son. Judge Alfred A. Delucci
sentences Scott to death. He calls the murder of Lacey
quote cruel and carrying, heartless and callous. On Scott Peterson's

(01:38:01):
first day on death row, Karen, two women called California
San Quentin State Prison to say they were interested in
marrying him.

Speaker 2 (01:38:11):
Yeah, that's the darkest side of this kind of stuff,
where it's like.

Speaker 1 (01:38:16):
That, the interest that this isn't it's dark.

Speaker 3 (01:38:21):
It's a dark place. It's not good, and.

Speaker 1 (01:38:24):
It is a very odd.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
Outcropping of these cases.

Speaker 1 (01:38:32):
It's very bizarre.

Speaker 3 (01:38:35):
So in two thousand and four, the Unborn Victims of
Violence Act, or Lacy and Connor's Law is past. The
Act states that anyone who causes bodily injury or death
to a child who is in utero is guilty of
a separate offense. The punishment for the separate offense is
the same as the punishment for injuring or killing the

(01:38:56):
unborn child's mother. In October two thousand and five, Stanislaus County,
California Superior Court Judge Roger Butchesney ruled that Scott was
not entitled this isn't all this to collect on Lacey's
two hundred and fifty thousand dollars life insurance policy.

Speaker 1 (01:39:15):
Good, good call.

Speaker 3 (01:39:16):
So he probably thought that that was going to come too,
because he was going to trick everyone and all the shit.
And I bet if he knew about the burglary of
the day before, right, he probably was like going to
blame it from the beginning on them get that life
insurance policy. Guess what, buddy, you still can't get it
in prison because you've been convicted of her murder, which

(01:39:36):
just takes you off the list.

Speaker 2 (01:39:38):
It's the thing too, This happens a lot in these
stories where that you see the murderer or the perpetrator
of the crime doing this very odd math of like
I have to clear my debts, So how can I
get that done?

Speaker 3 (01:39:53):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:39:54):
Your insurance? Your insurance?

Speaker 2 (01:39:55):
Like how many times have we told these stories where
people it's just kind of like, oh, I have to
pay this money off. Yeah, so I'm going to kill
my wife or I'm going.

Speaker 1 (01:40:05):
To kill my husband.

Speaker 2 (01:40:06):
Yeah yeah, Like it's this it's this insane illogical problem
solving where it's like, uh, this isn't going to solve it, Like.

Speaker 3 (01:40:17):
You know, it's a to b in their mind and
they don't understand how complicated they're actually in a horrible
They're act is Yeah, disgusting, It's crazy. In two thousand
and five, Scott's sister Anne Bird releases a book titled
Blood Brother thirty three Reasons My brother Scott Peterson is
guilty Oh shit. While living with the Birds her family

(01:40:41):
and claim that Scott Peterson flirted with her babysitter and
made passing remarks about how the police were looking for
Lacey in the wrong place. Oh no, I know. In
two thousand and six, Lacey's mother, Sharon Roache releases a
book titled For Lacey, A Mother's Story of Love, Loss
and Justice, and all proceeds are used to fund the

(01:41:03):
Lacy and Connor Search and Rescue Fund, which she had founded.
Oh I Know. Sharon also discusses victims' rights, which campaigns
regularly for Lacey's stepfather, Ron grant Ski, dies in his
sleep at his modesto home in April of twenty eighteen
at age seventy one, after a lengthy period of failing health.

(01:41:23):
He is buried next to Lacy and Connor I know.
And Lacey's father, Dennis Roche dies December to twenty eighteen
at the age of seventy two. Amber Fray testified against Peterson,
and today she's a practicing massage therapist and she's said
to have opened her own day spa in central California.

(01:41:44):
She is a traveler, outdoor enthusiasts, successful author, and a
mother of two, and her book Witness for the Prosecution
of Scott Peterson, was released in January of two thousand
and five. Because Scott was sentenced to death, his sentence
is automatically appealed. His appeal goes all the way to
the Supreme Court of California, and in August twenty twenty

(01:42:07):
they affirmed scott conviction but order a new sentencing hearing
due to mistakes made during jury selection. While Scott's jury
was being selected, the judge excluded thirteen potential jurors who
were opposed to the death penalty, and the judge didn't
ask the jurors if they would put their beliefs aside
and follow the law, which there is an error. As

(01:42:31):
of this month May twenty twenty one, Scott has not
been resentenced and there are people fighting to prove his innocence.
The website Scott Peterson Appealed dot org states that other
suspects and evidence proving Scott's innocence exists, but police didn't
look into any of it, and people who believes innocence.
The prosecution spent two years investigating Lacy's death but couldn't

(01:42:55):
say when or how she was killed. And they say
that the.

Speaker 2 (01:43:00):
That's because her body was in the bay for three months.

Speaker 3 (01:43:04):
Her head was never found, so they mean tell you know,
strangulation seems like the obvious choice, a gunshot wound to
the head. I feel like they would have find traces
of that, but strangulation alone is just like impossible to
tell because of that reason. And yeah, she was in
a bay. They also say that the media provided false

(01:43:26):
information about Scott because they wanted ratings, which sure, yeah.
So now let's talk about Evelyn Hernandez, a woman often
referred to as the other Lacy Peterson. So, both Evelyn
and Lacey were from the San Francisco Bay area. They
were both far along in their pregnancies when they were

(01:43:46):
murdered and were found washed up on the shores of
the bay. But unlike Lacey, Evelyn's story barely received any
media attention. I didn't find out about this one until
years after Lacy Peterson's case. When Evelyn Hernandez was fourteen
years old, she legally emigrates from El Salvador to the
United States. While attending high school and working multiple jobs

(01:44:08):
in San Francisco, Evelyn becomes pregnant with a son, who
she names Alexis. When her son is five years old,
Evelyn starts dating a man named Herman Aguilera and becomes
pregnant with his baby and is really excited. She plans
to name her son Fernando and his ju date is
May seventh, two thousand and two. Herman, on the other hand,

(01:44:31):
is not excited about the baby, so Evelyn calls herman's
mother to see why he isn't happy, and herman's mother
tells Evelyn that herman is married, and Evelyn had not
known that at all. I know. On May first, two
thousand and two, Evelyn is seen with Alexis at his school,
but this is the last time Evelyn or Alexis are

(01:44:52):
seen alive. When Evelyn's due date May seventh arrives and
there's no sign of Evelyn or Alexis, then herman reports
them missing. At first, police think Evelyn and Alexis had gone
back to El Salvador to be with Evelyn's family, But
when a few days pass and Evelyn's wallet has found
a few blocks from herman's place of work, police start

(01:45:14):
to suspect foul play. In July of two thousand and two,
Evelyn's body, still wearing maternity clothes, is found washed up
along the embarked arrow San Francisco Bay's eastern waterfront, which
is along where Fisherman's Wharf is. Evelyn's body is so
decomposed that there are only partial remains left, and there's

(01:45:37):
no trace of little Alexis. It's never been no trace
has ever been found. Police speak with herman's wife, who
provides him an alibi, although no details of that alibi
are ever released. Most likely means that she said herman
was with her the day Evelyn and Alexis were thought
to have gone missing. A few months later, Hermann stops

(01:45:59):
cooperating with the police, and to this day, Evelyn's murder
and Alexis's disappearance are completely unsolved, but also so much
less known than Lacy Peterson's. Beth Spotswood for Alta Online
wrote quote, facts surrounding Hermann's alibi aren't clear. In contrast,

(01:46:21):
the most minuscule details surrounding the disappearance of Lacy Peterson
have been established right down to her last trader Joe's receipt.
Beth wrote that no one assumed that Lacy just left
town even though the father of her child was having
an affair just like Evelyn's. There was no quote, media frenzy, hotlines, vigils,

(01:46:41):
or a national news coverage for Evelyn. In fact, she
barely made the local news. The San Francisco Chronicle published
thirty two stories about Lacy between her disappearance and Scot's arrest,
and there were only with four of those being on
the front page. The same paper had four stories about Evelyn,
with none of them front page. So let's talk about statistics.

(01:47:04):
In twenty fifteen, the CDC reported that homicide is the
fifth leading cause of death for women. Nearly half of
female homicide victims are killed by a current or former
male partner. Around fifteen percent of those women were pregnant,
And while the CDC doesn't list homicide as a leading
cause of death for pregnant women, the risk of homicide

(01:47:25):
is twice as high for women who are pregnant, which
is mind boggling and awful.

Speaker 1 (01:47:30):
That's scary.

Speaker 3 (01:47:31):
Other studies that use more data than the CDC have,
In fact, proven that homicide is one of the leading
causes of death for pregnant women. According to the CDC,
there are quote considerable racial and ethnic disparities in pregnancy
related mortality. Black women are the most affected, with forty
one point seven out of one hundred thousand pregnancy related deaths.

(01:47:54):
Native American or Alaskan Native women are annexed with twenty
eight point three, or Pacific Islander women follow with thirteen
point eight. White women have a rate of thirteen point four,
and Hispanic or Latino women have a rate of eleven
point six. The reason for the disparities may be due
to the access and quality of care, structural racism, and

(01:48:15):
more due to the increase in murdered pregnant women. Obstetricians
are encouraged to talk with their patients about domestic violence,
offer education and many resources as possible, and that's critical
in helping women. I just want to say to end it.
If fuel or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence,

(01:48:36):
called the National Domestic Violence Hotline at eight hundred seven
nine nine seven two three three, and we'll post this
on all the social medias for this episode and so
in light of that, we are going to be donating
one hundred percent of the proceeds from our Black and
White MFM logo pin to the National Domestic Violence Hotline.

(01:49:00):
So please check that out and support and call if
you need help. And that is the story of Lacy Peterson.

Speaker 1 (01:49:09):
Wow, amazing job.

Speaker 3 (01:49:11):
Thank you. That was great.

Speaker 1 (01:49:13):
That was really good and really really fucking awful. And
uh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:49:21):
I want to thank really my new researcher, Hailey Gray,
because that when I told her we were doing this case,
which i've you know, hesitated on doing, we both have,
I think for a long time, she was like that,
I am obsessed with that case and it kind of ends.
So she did so much research and so she did
a really incredible job of researching.

Speaker 1 (01:49:41):
Yeah she did.

Speaker 2 (01:49:44):
Yeah, that was long book, completely worth it and worth it,
you know, worth the time because those stories. Look, the
reason there's lots of people interested, and the reason that
there's websites and did da is because, you know, because
that story did pie the media and the nation for

(01:50:05):
so long and it was this kind of thing of
where's this woman? But what a great point to make
of like it doesn't happen every single time?

Speaker 1 (01:50:14):
And that's the kind.

Speaker 2 (01:50:15):
Of thing that like, it's the it's obvious, and yet
none of us, you know, we don't.

Speaker 1 (01:50:23):
We have been consuming media for a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:50:26):
But this is the beginning of really analyzing and hopefully
reapproaching it in that way where the priorities, these priorities
are kind of long standing, where the way newspapers, the
way the media decides what story is valid. You know,
it's we've been watching it for a long time and

(01:50:47):
we have talked about it before of like you know,
you watch those old Cold Case files. It's blonde girls,
it's young, and they always talk about how beautiful they are,
and they're always you know, it's always white, yeah, white
white women, So.

Speaker 3 (01:51:00):
That they didn't deserve it's essentially like these people didn't.
Other people deserve it more than these people deserve it,
even like sex workers are quote at risk lifestyles, so
they just they are deserving of it in the mind
of you know, the media.

Speaker 2 (01:51:17):
Yeah, or any just in the subtext of what of
what's being served up, so that changing or or or
people making an effort toward shining a light on that
is good and important and.

Speaker 1 (01:51:33):
Yeah and it.

Speaker 3 (01:51:36):
Yeah, great job, thank you well you'll go next week.
I'm thank you so much for listening and speculating with me.

Speaker 2 (01:51:44):
Yes, absolutely, well it is that case is fascinating. I mean,
it's just it really is monsters right there in the
suburbs with you. It's it's horrifying.

Speaker 3 (01:51:55):
Definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:51:57):
Yeah, we're back, We're we're doing shows, We're in it,
We're doing it, and so thanks for listening. Of course,
you guys, thanks for thanks for being in this with us.
There's lots lots of you who who some of you
have even been in it from the very beginning. Yeah,

(01:52:20):
but it's really nice. It's and it really is a
joy like being up here but then being like going
in and being like, okay, I'm gonna go record my
podcast now. Is Yeah, it's really fun and it's uh,
it's fun to have this creepy interest and know that
we're not alone.

Speaker 3 (01:52:39):
I was telling my new orthopedic surgeon about it because
he was like, I have a twenty six year old daughter,
and I was like, ask her for this is my book?
Tell her? I say hi. She doesn't tell her. I
say hi.

Speaker 2 (01:52:50):
Anyway, are you our street team?

Speaker 3 (01:52:56):
It was like he was like, okay, you weirdough, So sure. Oh,
thank you to Stephen Ray Morris for being our intrepid
uh what's it called? Yeah, engineer, engineer and yetti. We
appreciate you. What do you mean, Sirpa spa, Stephen, You're

(01:53:18):
our bigfoot.

Speaker 1 (01:53:19):
You always have.

Speaker 3 (01:53:20):
My God, I love that, Surpa. Not yetty, stay sexy,
don't get murdered?

Speaker 1 (01:53:31):
Bye, bye, Elvis.

Speaker 3 (01:53:34):
Do you want a cookie?

Speaker 5 (01:53:40):
You know he's online, he's trolling sex workers. The question
is he hasn't done it, so is he in a
crazy cooling off period? As we know, it's not this
crazy barking dog compulsion to do this. Serial kills get married,
they find a different job.

Speaker 8 (01:53:54):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, and this is Tenfold More Wicked
Presents Wicked Words. You might have heard of my other
true crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked on exactly right. Over
the past year, I've traveled around the world interviewing people
for the show, and many of those people are writers.
They've had so many great true crime stories, and now

(01:54:15):
we want to tell you those stories with details that
have never been published. New York Times bestselling author Brian
Burrow tells me about going to high school with a
serial killer.

Speaker 3 (01:54:25):
Dude, if you're lying about this, you're lying about everything.
It was a naked plea for sympathy from these women.
He wanted their sympathy.

Speaker 1 (01:54:32):
Well, it's manipulation.

Speaker 3 (01:54:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:54:34):
Michael Hall with Texas Monthly investigates a twisted Texas story
that sent innocent people to prison. Am I the only
one who's surprised that there's a swingers club and a
tiny little town like Minneola. Not only was there swingers
club in Maniola, there were swingers clubs all.

Speaker 1 (01:54:48):
Over East Texas.

Speaker 3 (01:54:49):
Oh well, who knew?

Speaker 8 (01:54:50):
Sarah Wyman writes about the true crime story that inspired
the controversial novel Lolita.

Speaker 3 (01:54:56):
What is it that we take away from this? To me,
the bigger picture is who matters?

Speaker 6 (01:55:00):
So with Sally Warner, it was really important for me
to figure out who she was as a person.

Speaker 8 (01:55:04):
Pamela cole Off with The New York Times magazine and
Pro Publica follows the murder of a woman in Texas
and her husband, Joe's wrongful conviction.

Speaker 6 (01:55:12):
This was just a very bloody, messy crime scene.

Speaker 8 (01:55:15):
Four shots seems like a lot to me for a robber,
for a meek woman.

Speaker 3 (01:55:20):
Who was in bed.

Speaker 6 (01:55:21):
One thing I've always wondered was whether Mickey heard someone
come into the house, she knew Joe was out of town,
grabbed the gun. I can completely imagine her not able
to actually fire that weapon. Was it rested away from her?

Speaker 8 (01:55:35):
And forensic psychologist doctor Catherine Ramslin shows me a paper
cube that BTK killer Dennis Rader made for her in prison.

Speaker 4 (01:55:42):
He causes cubing and on each side there is a
label like church leader, employee, family man, serial killer. They
have no roots in any of these. They can pivot
quickly to whicheverone works for them in any given situation.

Speaker 8 (01:56:00):
Winkler Dawson Join me for tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words,
a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Wicked
Words premieres Monday, May seventeenth on Exactly Right, with new
episodes each week. Follow tenfold More on Twitter and tenfold
More Wicked on Facebook and Instagram. Subscribe now and find

(01:56:20):
Wicked Words on the tenfold More Wicked feed on Stitcher,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.