In this first conversation, Michael Ross and Carmel Tanaka discuss her role as the founder of JQT Vancouver, a unique non-profit advocating for inclusivity in Jewish queer spaces. They delve into Carmel's identity as both Japanese-Canadian and Jewish, exploring how these intersections shape her activism and community work.
Introduction to Carmel’s identity, activism, and the creation of JQT Vancouver. Key Themes: intersection of Jewish and queer identities, challenges in Jewish LGBTQ+ community acceptance, current Conservatism vs. liberalism in Canadian Jewish communities.
Takeaways:
- Carmel Tanaka emphasizes the importance of creating inclusive spaces for LGBTQ+ individuals within Jewish communities.
- The intersection of Carmel's Japanese and Jewish identities profoundly influences her activism and community engagement.
- JQT Vancouver’s mission is to provide a safe haven for queer Jewish individuals to express their identities.
- The conversation highlights the ongoing challenges of acceptance and representation in Jewish LGBTQ+ spaces.
- Carmel shares her personal connections to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, enriching her perspective on activism.
- The podcast underscores the need for nuanced discussions around identity, politics, and community in today's world.
Links referenced in this episode:
Mentioned in this episode:
This category is for internal use only. Here you can try out whatever you’d like regarding Pre\Post Roll Good Luck!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(06:20):
Let's talk for and about theLGBT communities around the world.
I'm Michael Ross and this isStraight Friendly.
She's a community engagementprofessional and is the founder and
executive director of JQTVancouver, a 100% volunteer run Jewish,
(06:43):
queer and trans charitablenonprofit in Canada dedicated to
queering Jewish spaces andJewifying queer spaces.
Carmel Tanaka.
Hello.
Hello.
Hi.
Good to have you here.
Thanks for having me.
Oh my God, we're just doing it.
(07:05):
Carmel, I'm so glad to haveyou here.
And I just started like Ilanded so somehow on you once.
I only arrived to Canada aftera whole year of like no matting all
around after this crazy yearthat started and here then I found
(07:30):
some, some little sisteralmost, I would say, where we've
been like sharing so many stuff.
I will never, never, everforget our first conversation.
The I felt like some of myhours listeners should also have
the privilege of a bit talkingwith you.
(07:50):
So I'm really, really, reallyglad, my dear.
I'm honored.
You know, you were in themiddle of nowhere, Hope, British
Columbia when you contacted me.
And so I just feel like weconnected so beautifully and I'm
excited to.
Continue and we found so manythings in common.
(08:12):
And we will be talking here,of course, about J Cutie and also
about your activism, which isinvolving so many different subjects
that all of them are very interesting.
But I have to say that I also,I connected with you by soul.
You know, it's not only aboutan interest about a subject.
(08:32):
And actually I'm just nowtelling you a surprise that and Carmel
had no idea before that.
I'm also launching a newpodcast about Jewish LGBTQ life.
And you're actually one of thefirst, very first guests and so prize.
So welcome both to StraightFriendly Global, but also to this
(08:55):
new podcast about Jewish life,lgbtq, Jewish life around the world.
And it was important for me tostart with you because the first
time we talked, like there waslike this kind of like blast connection
of like, oh my God, someonehere really can understand me and
I can really understand thatother person without even meeting
(09:16):
each other before.
Right?
Mazel tov.
This is so exciting.
Mazal Tov.
Kapara.
Kapara.
Luckily we are recordingremotely, so I cannot just jump on
you and hug you.
(09:36):
Okay, so we will be talking about.
Yes, a virtual hug.
A virtual hug.
So we'll be talking about jqt.
There are so many stuff thatwe have to talk about.
And also for you, I discoveredalso something which I've never knew
(09:58):
about, which.
And it's like this term of Japanese.
So we have to start with that.
I mean like, tell us a bitbecause Carmel is really like a combination
of so many differentidentities and opinions and.
Yeah, let's, let's, let's start.
(10:18):
I'll take it away for thosewho are watching or listening.
My full name is Carmel Tanakaand so my first name is Hebrew and
my last name is Japanese.
My mother is Ashkenazi Israelifrom Haifa.
And so there's no surprisethat I would be named Carmel after
(10:39):
the mountain.
And then my father is JapaneseCanadian, third generation, so that
makes me a Yonsei, a fourthgeneration Japanese Canadian.
And I've recently discoveredthat they come from a pre 100 to
120 years ago called Fukuokaon Kyushu island of Japan.
Wow, that's.
(11:01):
Wow.
Tell me, did you invent thatterm of a Japanese or how did you
find that?
Like I love that.
So that's a great question.
I'm working on an oral historyproject called the Japanese Project
where I interview Jewish andJapanese individuals, couples and
(11:22):
families all over the world.
So far I've got over 80 plusinterviews and the first time I heard
this term Japanese I probablywas in actually University of Tel
Aviv.
So this would have been circa2005, 2006.
There was a lovely studentfrom California, San Diego who introduced
(11:48):
me to this term and I latchedonto it immediately because this
felt appropriate to sayJapanese as opposed to half Japanese
and half Jewish or thesefractions, which I'm neither.
I'm fully Jewish and I'm fully Japanese.
However, during the interviewsof the oral history project, some
(12:10):
people started to take claimsbeing the first to coin the term
Japanese.
So there isn't a consensus onwho started it, but I can tell you
for sure it started inCalifornia, early 2000s.
Oh wow, wow, that's so interesting.
And you're involved in so manydifferent subjects and also with
(12:35):
your name Carmel, we foundsome similarities with East European
background, apparently alsoliving in Israel.
I was born and raised in Israel.
For you it was definitely likeliving for several years, right?
And also in some other partsof the country.
And actually my last stop inIsrael was Haifa as well.
(13:02):
And I think that also what wefound in common and I felt very comfortable
talking with you, it's aboutthe crazy year after October 7th.
Now I know that this is notthe focus of our episode now, but
I think that this is somethingthat we cannot, we cannot deny or
(13:24):
ignore because yes, it's likeaffecting all of us and some of the
listeners are maybe not inthat much in the field and Maybe
I think it is important thatwe will be a bit sharing.
I I have to say that untilrecent year I had a law that a rule
that I'm not dealing withpolitics and political parties or
(13:46):
politicians in my podcasts andI'm that I'm avoiding some subjects
but with Israeli one maybe Iwas a bit more tricky but with English
one I didn't And I think it'slike the last year has I I'm not
sure if I have enough words toexplain my feelings, my thoughts,
(14:06):
especially in the intersectionof the Jewish identities and the
LGBTQ + identities and the somany different identities which I
think which is what is very beautiful.
But for me as someone who wasbut his ex boyfriend is Israeli Palestinian,
(14:28):
I felt like that a lot of thediscourse like I couldn't really
be myself since October 7th,really couldn't be completely myself
neither in Israel, neitherabroad without canceling some of
the stuff and I didn't want toand also as what you said about being
let's say a Japanese it's notabout being health, health.
(14:51):
It's full of this and that.
So and this is something whichI think is very, very interesting
and I'm an Israeli who's justsuddenly exploring Canada and some
other countries and I'm still learning.
But I think that from yourside like you have some different
perspective or experience thanI have although that we've been few
(15:11):
years in Israel and althoughwe do share some similar stuff.
But I want to like what isyour perspective and feeling like
what was for you that year andand how do you combine your activism,
your views with some stuffthat for some people might seem as
contradicting each other.
(15:33):
Not from my side by the way.
What a question.
I mean how much time you got?
It's been a really difficultyear for me personally and I have
seen how it impacts me in anegative but also a lot of my community
(15:58):
members, particularly in theJewish and queer community, I can
dive into how that affects meprofessionally in a minute.
But I'm going to take a momentto talk about how it was for me personally.
I'm one of the very fewIsraelis that I know in the Jewish
queer community in Vancouver,where I reside, where I live.
(16:20):
And so my connection toIsraelis and who attended say for
example the NOVA party or whohas been impacted by the continuing
war is different for than alot of other people that are here.
(16:43):
I have deeply personal connections.
My first cousin's son was inattendance the party and since then
I've learned of friends offriends and Family, friends who have
been all impacted.
And of course my family andfriends live in bomb shelters these
(17:05):
days.
So that was my immediateexperience, was just wanting to make
sure that my family andfriends were safe while a lot of
people here were starting toturn to activism, protesting, wanting
(17:25):
to stop what's going on.
And I wasn't in that mentalspace yet.
I was still just on WhatsApp.
I was messaging friends, justseeing if they're alive.
I was in a very differentplace and it was tough because they
(17:46):
tell you to help with yourmental health, go on walks, go outside.
And every time I would go outI would see stickers on lamp posts
or posters of the hostagesbeing defaced with swastikas or ripped
from vandals.
(18:06):
So it didn't matter where Iwent in order to free my mind, I
was constantly reminded andinundated and re triggered.
So there was nowhere otherthan my own home, the safety of my
own home.
And as a result, I hermittedfor a year inside my little hobbit
hole here in Vancouver.
And my social circle becameand still remains quite small, only
(18:30):
to a trusted queue.
Those who have a capacity tofeel compassion for all victims of
the war, not just one groupwho have the ability to offer or
think with critical thinkingand nuanced ideas and perspectives
(18:54):
and are not interested inmansplaining you or trying to change
and waiver your.
Your personal experience aretrying to tell you that your pain
doesn't matter.
Yeah, so there's that.
That was my personalexperience which came along with
both family and friendshipruptures because not everyone has
(19:19):
or shares the same opinionacross the board.
And I recognize that there's afull spectrum of opinion in the Jewish
community and also outside ofthe Jewish community.
Although it feels very onesided these days.
Outside of the Jewish community.
And so then professionallyrunning a Jewish, queer and trans
(19:42):
charitable nonprofit duringthis time has presented itself with
immense challenges.
Pressure from both the Jewishcommunity as well as the queer community
to take particular stance onthe conflict.
And at jqd we don't.
Our stance is that weacknowledge that there's a full breadth
(20:02):
of experiences, opinions, andsome people don't even want to express
an opinion.
For them it's a non issue.
They've never set foot in Israel.
For them it's a moot point.
So our focus is to ensure thatwe create safer queer Jewish spaces
(20:23):
so that queer Jewish peoplecan celebrate all of themselves and
not have to hide any oneparticular identity in order to fit
in.
I think that many people don'teven realize the so much of pressure
that so many of us are, aregoing from in.
(20:47):
First of all, especially forpeople who I think that for any human
and I so much agree with youthat it's like it's about human rights,
it's about human life and thiskind of discourse of choosing sides
like it's some football game.
And that for some people orgroups that are not even personally
(21:11):
involved with that, but theyhave a very strong opinion.
And I would say that also forme, there was some feeling of even
some kind of betray.
Because if you are a humanrights activist, you are a human
rights activist, not only onekind of human or make the differentiation.
(21:36):
So.
So yeah, and, and I can saythat as, as an Israeli, but I've
been always very much in contact.
I've been always traveling a lot.
I've been always working onexpanding my views.
And for instance, for me, whatis very, very impactful was the discovering
(21:59):
almost a decade ago, the cbst,the Queer Synagogue in New York,
that was the place for mewhere for the first time I could
connect between both my gayqueer identities with my Jewish identities.
(22:20):
And in Israel, the discourseis very much.
It's like it's your eitherqueer secular completely, or you're
like Orthodox.
Like there's.
It's very difficult to findsomething in between.
And I thought that I'm.
I'm more open and more likemany times in my Hebrew podcast,
I talk about those experiencesfrom that I had in those synagogues,
(22:45):
especially also this year, andI went also to Toronto in Canada.
It's very different than theUS we'll talk also about that.
But also this year I learnedthat maybe I'm not so close to some
of the communities that Ifought or was hoping for.
And for me, what I learnedduring the last months, including
(23:08):
here, while being in Canada,and I do find Canada to be very liberal
compared to many countries,let's say.
But at the same time, I alsodiscovered that the Israeli communities
and the Jewish communities arenot necessarily the same.
Right.
(23:29):
So how do you see it from your side?
And I think maybe like I onlynow realize that you said that, like
the fact that you knowpersonally some people who've been
affected, which is also mycase, and I think, I'm not sure if
we even talked about it, butmaybe because we look at the situation
(23:56):
as something which is alsopersonal, like something which is
like we know the human beings.
So maybe this makes for us,the views to be more complicated
and difficult, but maybe moreclose to reality than.
Someone yeah, we don't seethem as football players.
(24:16):
We see them as our family andfriends, which is very different.
And I think that would changea lot of people's perspectives if
it were their family andfriends who are being directly impacted.
You're talking about what myviews are or stances on Jewish community
in Canada.
(24:38):
I mean, we could get into sometypical Canadian politics, which
is know, east coast versuswest coast.
We could talk about cityversus rural points of views.
I mean there's a hugediversity within Canada alone.
Lots of different people.
But within the Jewishcommunity, I would say that there's
(24:59):
many different denominations,there's many different subgroups,
but all in all, I would saythe majority is more conservative
than what you would find inthe U.S.
in fact, on most issues, whenit comes to same sex marriage or
to intermarriage, God forbid,we are definitely 10 to 15 years
(25:19):
behind some of the moreprogressive Jewish movements in the
US here in Canada.
So I'm not surprised that yourexperience being here in a liberal
progressive country andexperiencing some Jewish conservatism,
that is for sure.
(25:39):
Although you would say, manywould say that west coast Jewish
community is more progressivethan liberal.
I mean, I've spent time inToronto, I've spent time in Montreal
and very much feels same samein many ways.
And you've been also living inthe us if I remember correct.
(26:03):
Yeah, in so many places.
Maybe also one more thing thatis connected between us.
And I think it's alsoimportant to mention the fact that
Canada is huge.
When I took a flight fromVancouver to Toronto, I was sure
it will be like half an hour,one hour.
I didn't realize it's gonna behalfway across the world.
(26:30):
But like we say the termcommunity but it's not like just
as I say with LGBTQ plus communities.
And it's not one community.
There are many different communities.
And that's the thing world so,so beautiful.
The, the diversity is aroundthat and also from, from my research.
So in Toronto we have around300,000 Jewish people, while in Vancouver
(26:56):
in the west coast it is way,way, way, way, way smaller.
Like almost like just only ifI remember correct, it's around only
10% of that like thestatistics are, were conducted before
the Hamas Israel war and theHezbollah war.
And probably it's changingbecause there are so many Israelis
(27:18):
arriving now to Canada due toits policies and the war visa, both
for Israelis and for Palestinians.
So even when talking aboutVancouver, it's still like you think
that it's like a veryprogressive or west and big Community,
but actually it's quite, quiteof a small community.
(27:39):
Right, communities.
And you're saying that it'salso 15 years behind.
I didn't know that by the way,at all.
And I talk with so many.
I'll give you an example.
So intermarriage in the Reformmovement in the U.S.
well, they accept that.
They also accept patrilinealJews, but that's not the case here.
There's still, there's nowefforts to move forward.
(28:02):
What?
I'm sorry, the patrilineal Jews?
What do you mean?
Yeah, so to recognize Jewishpeople who have, say a father who
is Jewish and a mother, thatis not, but to still consider them
to be Jewish.
So in Canada, what it's likecompared to us or in the Reform movement.
(28:23):
The Reform movement doesn'trecognize patrilineal dissents in
Canada yet.
And it's up to the boards ofeach synagogue, I mean as a national
movement, as the Reformmovement in North America, they do
recognize it, but it's stillup to each synagogue.
The production of this episodecame to reality thanks to the support
(28:43):
of the Friedrich Naumannfoundation for Freedom in Jerusalem.
So you know, whenever I talkwith entrepreneurs or what I like
to call change makers becauseentrepreneurship is not only about
startups, but it's also aboutcreating non profits campaigns.
And I always say, and it tookme lots of years to realize that
(29:06):
change making also starts withsome internal change making with
some self development.
And it's very important thatfor change makers that are affecting
other people, that we willstart also from ourselves, let's
say.
And it starts by always likefrom what I find that best entrepreneurs
(29:29):
or change makers are those whosolve or try to solve real problems
and not just go and try tomake money or not.
And like we are now talkingabout J Cutie, which is a 100 volunteer
only volunteers, I wish foryou and hope for you that it will
enlarge too much more than that.
And not only volunteersbecause you're doing something very,
(29:51):
very, very important.
And I wanted to ask first iswhat problem or problems you saw?
Maybe first of all from yourside, your personal view as a change
maker, but also of course theproblems that you saw that other
people are facing with.
(30:12):
So what were these problemsthat led to the solution of creating
jqd?
Oh, this is a multi pronged answer.
So I hope you're ready.
So I first got involved withJewish LGBTQ celebration of Pride
(30:33):
when I was workingprofessionally in community engagement
in the Jewish community Pride,Vancouver Pride particularly, and
the marching in Pride was partof my roster.
It was one of my files.
And I felt very honored to bethe person behind the scenes to organize
(30:55):
this.
And in many ways at the time,I wasn't out as queer yet, even though
I led a very queer lifealready up until that point, I thought
I had bypassed the need tohave a coming out story.
I thought we had progressedfar enough in society where my friends
(31:16):
and family already knew there was.
I wasn't hiding it, nor was Iattaching to a particular letter.
So in many ways, I guess I wasa Trojan horse for the Jewish community.
But I also did it because, andI think this is something that we
have talked about.
(31:37):
My dear cousin, Nir Katz inTel Aviv was murdered in a shooting,
the Bar Noir shooting.
And he was murdered because of homophobia.
And it really impacted me.
And just in general, therights of LGBTQ people and, you know,
(32:03):
being free to love whomeverthey want to love.
And so this was a way to honorhis memory.
And so JQD actually developedout of me recognizing that we're
not just queer or part of theLGBTQ community for one day or one
(32:23):
week or one month out of the year.
It's 365 days of the year.
And I was already, I guess,anti performative allyship back then.
And so in 2018, I organized agroup of queer and trans Jewish people
to hold conversations around,you know, what do we need throughout
(32:50):
the rest of the year.
And that's how JQD started.
It was in near Katz's memoryand initially, and he was a huge
supporter of wanting to helpyouth who were questioning their
identity.
And so this, for me felt likea very natural way to honor him.
(33:13):
And then as we developed fromjust a grassroots community, just
a small group of volunteers,into a charity, today we've now really
expanded and through propercommunity assessments and speaking
with our community, we nowknow what the needs of our community
(33:34):
are.
So, for example, properinclusion of Jewish, queer and trans
seniors.
We didn't realize up until,what was it, Covid 2020, when we
did an oral history projectinterviewing elders in our community,
we started to hear them sharetheir fears of having to go back
(33:57):
twofold into the closet oncebecause they're part of the LGBTQ
community and also becausethey're Jewish.
And that's when we learnedthat long term care homes, hospice
care, even the hospital isvery Christian centric here in bc.
And there were demands orrequests from our elders to create
(34:23):
Jewish, queer and transfriendly housing for them.
And as a group of volunteerswith at the time, $500 in our bank
account.
We knew that that was notpossible to achieve.
You know, building care homescan be a 20 year project, costs tons
of money.
So we knew that our bestefforts were to advocate and to make
(34:46):
changes with existinginstitutions and the existing infrastructure
for senior care in our province.
And that led to the formationof the JQD Seniors Initiative, a
seniors resource guide whichessentially provides information
of what a Jewish, queer andtrans senior in B.C.
(35:07):
can and cannot plan for in theyear 2023.
At the time, now 2024, when itcomes to Jewish burial, dying, last
rites in a Jewish context,this is, you know, burial with Havre
Kadisha.
Will their trans and nonbinary bodies be respected in both
(35:29):
the liturgy and in the groundand in ceremony?
And it's complicated because alot of people who are in the JQD
community and also the greaterJewish community here in North America
are in mixed marriages andintermarriage may be okay in life
as long as you're payingmembership dues to the various different
(35:50):
synagogues, but in death thisbecomes a very taboo subject because
your non Jewish partner thatyou've shared your life with, who
has come to synagogue withyou, your children have been a part
of synagogue life.
That person is not allowed tobe buried with you.
It could be in an adjacentcemetery that might be married to
(36:11):
a synagogue cemetery if you'relucky, but it's usually not within
the cemetery grounds of aJewish cemetery.
And so people don't know thisuntil the time comes their death
comes.
And family members need torush extremely quickly.
They have 24 hours before thebody needs to go into the ground.
And in that time, that is notlong enough to educate yourself on
(36:35):
what can and cannot beavailable to you in a Jewish and
queer and trans context.
So we asked the hard questionson behalf of our community and put
it into a resource guide thatallows people to make informed decisions.
And the best thing to havecome from this is people now, I think
(36:59):
have less anxiety becausethere were a lot of unknowns before.
Not everyone is a member, apaying member of a Jewish synagogue
and many are unaffiliated andjust simply didn't think that a Jewish
burial was possible for them.
And now they know it ispossible with some concessions.
But now they have to navigateif their non Jewish partner can also
(37:23):
be with them.
So little by little we dohave, you know, some recent wins.
The COVID Kadisha here inVancouver, preemptively as a member
of the JQD Seniors Initiative,has accepted non binary liturgy in
(37:43):
advance of A non binary death.
They know and we told themmore trans and more non binary people
will be dying in the Jewishcommunity moving forward.
Best to prepare now ratherthan feel this rush to create an
ad hoc committee to figure outhow to do this.
Everything's super rush rushwhen someone dies, do it before someone
(38:06):
dies.
I see this even as somethingwhich is a very Jewish thing to do.
You know, like sometimes therecan be this discourse about is it
Jewish or not Jewish, is itlike according to the.
Or not.
But I think if going to ouressence actually like vodka, the
respect of the dead is so muchimportant that actually what you're
(38:28):
doing here is about actuallytouching the very base of being Jewish
and the Jewish culture.
And I think it is, it is muchstronger and more important than.
I mean like, I'm quite surethat Kvodomet is more important than
(38:51):
someone's identity.
In my, in my opinion, like,like what you're doing actually,
you're like, you'retransforming to be even more Jewish
than it is in some way.
It is more liberal, but it ismore Jewish in some way.
No.
I'm really impressed, to behonest, that I even received answers
(39:16):
from some of the most orthodoxstakeholders when it comes to Jewish
burial and death, that theyrespected J.
Cutie in my position enough toprovide this answer.
And I do think it's becausedeath is the most important issue
and being able to educate notonly the Jewish community on the
(39:36):
importance of being buriedJewishly for those who want to be
buried Jewishly, but also wecan, in advance of death, help healthcare
people providing who arecaregivers, who are providing medical
assistance, who are providingemotional assistance, spiritual assistance
to seniors so that they can beable to provide more inclusive care
(40:00):
for Jewish, queer and trans seniors.
Right now in our provincialhealthcare, no health care authority
asks if someone is part of theLGBTQ community.
And so they don't even know.
And I understand that personcentered care is a hot trendy word
(40:22):
these days in health care.
How can you be truly providingperson centered care if you don't
know one of the identities ofthe people that you're caring for?
And the argument that we keephearing from healthcare providers
is you're a human with bloodand a heartbeat and we will provide
(40:42):
you the same care no matterwho you are.
However, that might not meetthe emotional, mental, physical and
spiritual needs of the individual.
So.
And we know that our work canbe translated into any particular
(41:05):
community that has more thanone identity that is not part of
the Christian centric majorityhere in Canada.
So we're optimistic that thiswill be used in a way to help educate
people.
We're offering training now ofhealthcare providers.
Yeah, I had no idea that Iwould be going from an events based
(41:31):
JQD group, volunteers wherejust trying to find my basher to
social services and offeringsupport into some of the most marginalized
people in our community.
And for me it sounds likethere's still so much more to do.
And from what I've beenlearning, like Canada is it's not
(41:52):
only big geographically, butwe're talking about around more than
40 million citizens that live here.
And for me it was very surprising.
I have to say that when I waslooking for a queer synagogue, I
found only one.
And you know, I would compareit a little bit with the hospitals
(42:13):
for instance and Venetia, of course.
It's very difficult to makecomparison between a death and life
institute, like a hospitalwith something which is more spiritual
and maybe so only social, I think.
Or not only like a synagogue.
Also for me, I would say likeit's like many times people ask why
do you need your own synagogue?
Why do you need your own stuff?
(42:34):
I mean like first of all, ifthere are some stuff, it means that
there is a demand, that thereis a need.
So if there is a need, itdidn't happen.
Sounds probably, but it'snatural in my view at least.
That's also what Yuvano Hararisays quite a lot in his historical
books.
And I would say that for me itwas very surprising that according
(42:55):
to my research and we've beentalking about it together and I've
been also talking with thecantor of Shirley Beno in Toronto,
but it seems like Cheryl,Cheryl, she's really, really, really,
really, really amazing.
And like that.
I went there by the way, twicealso for Yom Kippur and I cannot
(43:17):
explain how much it is muchmore spiritual when for me at least
being in a place where it ismore targeted towards, towards you.
And I understand that thereare some synagogues which are friendly
(43:38):
and opening up.
Thank you.
Took some time.
But my perspective, and alsoas the name of my podcast and stuff
is a straight, friendly perspective.
I mean like there's somethingvery strong with the fact that like
it's queer and it's alsofriendly for vibers.
I think that that statement isimportant and seems like we still
(43:59):
have lot of, lots of steps to do.
Surprisingly also here inCanada that it's, let's say adoption
rights here are much betterthan in Israel.
Like it's almost full, youknow, like it seems like for an Israeli
arriving here, what?
It's all probably perfect and stuff.
No, things are a bit morecomplicated in reality.
(44:22):
I have something to share with you.
It's not going to change thenarrative that we've just created,
but it will offer just morecomplexity into this conversation.
So one of the things that Iwant to dive deeper into and this
was part of the oral historyproject I did for JQD was to document
(44:43):
adoption and surrogacy toJewish families here in B.C.
and one of the mostinteresting finds I found is typically
Israeli men who are at thetime were looking to expand their
families were able to havetheir children converted in Conservative
(45:08):
synagogues before same sexmarriage was even allowed in the
Conservative movement.
Oh wow, how dumb.
Which is fascinating.
And you would think, well, weknow that Conservative conversions
are the ones that arerecognized along with Orthodox conversions
(45:29):
by Israel and that Reform andReconstructionist renewal, maybe
Reform Reform now, but atleast I know historically did not
consider those to be fullJewish conversions.
But this is an interestingpoint that, you know, the first same
(45:49):
sex marriage and aconservative movement that was recognized
was in 2020 here in Vancouver.
There were before in Victoria,but you know, oh, this is all outlined
in the oral history projectwhich I really recommend people to
check out.
(46:10):
It's at JQDVancouver CA.
We really document the 100years of Jewish, queer and trans
history.
All the, you know, thosedifferent synagogues and denominations
at different times, trying toadvocate for it, you know, going
ahead with some ceremoniesthat split communities in half.
And then, you know, this isall documented in the Jewish archives
(46:34):
too, which is really wonderfulthat the, you know, the Jewish newspapers
at the time were recordingthis feud and of course there were
splinter communities and yada,yada, yada.
Anyway, all of this is shownthat in Vancouver at the very least,
the first officiallyrecognized gay marriage was in 2020,
(46:57):
or at least during early daysof the pandemic and there were conversions
of Jewish children to queerIsraeli families prior to that.
So that's fascinating.
That's really, really, really interesting.
We will also live here.
You will send me the link andalso we will try to put it also in
(47:18):
the description of thisepisode that people will be able
to see also.
And I would also ask how canpeople be involved or assist to your
activism and the veryimportant issues that you are dealing
with?
The simplest way would be tovisit our website jqtvancouver Ca.
(47:42):
There's contact details there.
Send us an email, let us know,you know, if you're a local in Vancouver.
Even if you are not local toVancouver, we'd love to hear from
you.
Whether it's involved in theJQD Seniors initiative in our mental
health support series.
I mean there's lots going onat JQD and we don't pretend to be
(48:05):
a cross Canada organization asthere are other Jewish queer groups
in Canada.
However, that doesn't meanjust because you don't live locally
in Vancouver, you can help us out.
Yeah.
So most of the say like areyou looking for, for donations for
(48:25):
buying like or like signing upfor a newsletter or social media
how people can be engaged andhelp with what you do and also some
of the stuff, let's say thecooperation is also very important.
So what else can people do to.
To be part of what you'redoing, to be part of a solutions?
(48:47):
We have a monthly newsletterthat you can sign up for on our website.
You can also make a monthlydonation or even a one time donation.
We'll accept your money.
We are Canada's firsthomegrown Jewish, queer and trans
charity.
So we are able to offer taxreceipts which is a huge win for
(49:11):
us.
It takes a long time to becomea charity or to be designated as
a charity.
I would say thank you.
Thank you.
I mean it's taken many years.
We've been.
Since 2018.
Wow.
Yeah, wow.
Long time.
You know Carmel, we're aboutto get to the end of the episode
(49:37):
actually and I would say thatI am.
I had no idea actually aboutthe story of Necat and the fact that
you are related.
We've been talking quite a lotbut I didn't, I didn't know about
that.
And I think that like also thefact that it led you also like, you
(49:57):
know, like there's a lot ofpain in this word and we are recording
it in the time of lots of painand, and death and brutality and
you know, it's like a bitMisha al Kuma from Holocaust to revival
or from pain to change making.
(50:20):
I had no idea.
So actually I feel veryprivileged now because first of all
I believe in it that ifthere's a pain, the best way is to
do tikkun olam from that.
Like to make the world to be abetter place.
Unfortunately we also now intimes that we see how for some people
activists that the positionthat they get to, they're not necessarily
(50:46):
empowering ours, you know.
And I think so that it's notsomething that can be taken as granted.
And you know, for me actuallythat event that was very impactful
for me for Those who don'tknow in Israel in 2009, August 2009.
(51:08):
I really remember that it wasjust around the week that my grandmother
passed away.
So it was like one week ofbeing in the Shiva of my grandmother.
And at the same time there wasthis horrible shooting to one of
Tel Aviv's youth gay center,Barnoar, which was a youth club for
(51:35):
teenagers who are LGBTQ plus.
And up until today, thisissue, this horrible crime was not
completely discovered in termsof like, we.
We still don't completely knowwho's the horrible person behind
(51:58):
that.
And there was a shooting there.
Two of the volunteers therepassed away and one of them is near
cuts.
So, yeah, I think it's.
It's important to remember.
It's important to remember.
It's also important to.
To do Tikkun out of.
(52:19):
Out of the pain.
So thank you, Carmel.
I didn't know.
I was thinking about them alot, by the way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
His last text message to mewas just a few days before he was
planning his wedding to Tamas.
(52:42):
And we all used to livetogether and give a time.
Mir was my closest cousin, notin blood relation, but in like our.
We were similar age and welived together while I was studying
in Tel Aviv.
(53:02):
And when I was already back inVancouver, he knew that gay marriage
was a possibility in Canada,so he and to.
To come to Vancouver to get married.
So his last text message to mewas, how much are cell phone plans?
(53:22):
Oh, not here.
And I said, highway robbery.
Yeah.
Carmel talking from about painand Tikkun, I think that you also
(53:43):
have some very interestingstory from Israel with some not only
Jewish backgrounds and onlyJewish feminists to open the door
for you.
Right?
Yeah.
I would say that we have avery unique relationship with an
(54:06):
Israeli Palestinian family,the Mawasi family in Faradays near
Zakhornyakov.
My mom would take a taxi fromthe Rekhava to the train from Benjamina
to Zakroniakov.
And one day she.
(54:27):
Her taxi driver was rousingher a little bit because he knew
that she clearly didn'trecognize him, but he had recognized
her.
When we went walking from ourapartment to the moshav that has
(54:49):
a swimming pool just beneath.
And when we arrived, it was avery funny scene because the swimming
pool had just redone theirtiles, but the person or the company
laying down the tiles forgotto glue the tiles.
And so when we arrived, allthe water had lifted all the tiles,
(55:10):
and so all the tiles were floating.
And there was a whole group ofpeople, the lifeguards, they're all
from Far east, and they'reall, we're all laughing hysterically
because we came to swim, notrealizing that this had happened.
And it was a funny moment, of course.
You know, we all chuckled andwe're like, okay, I guess we'll come
(55:31):
back another time.
So he remembered my mom and me.
And so he pretended to say,you know what?
I know exactly who you are.
You're Dalia, and yourdaughter is Carmel.
And my mom in the taxicouldn't, was very scared because,
how does this person know whoI am?
And once he realized that mymom was quite fearful of how does
(55:53):
this person know who she is?
He explained that he was oneof the guys at the swimming pool.
And then from that moment on,he became my mom's favorite taxi
driver.
And they would do a little,you know, sea move to a full awful
stand or to, you know,shawarma, and make detours on their
way to the train station.
(56:14):
And then after some months ofthis, he invited my mom, time.
It's time for you to come fora Friday lunch with my family.
And my mom did.
Now, my mom comes from a veryconservative leak food background,
and so for her to do this,there was a big deal.
(56:36):
And from that moment on, ourfamilies became extremely close.
In fact, they're my mishpocha.
This is these.
These are the people that.
The first people that Iactually texted on November 7, I
mean, October 7, was thisfamily just to make sure that they're
okay.
(56:58):
And they're the people whopick us up from the airport when
we come to visit.
I'm there more than I am withanybody else in Israel these days.
And so much so that I do thinkthat this gives me a different perspective
than even a lot of Israelis.
(57:19):
And I also used to live with them.
There was a time I lived inFaradays for six months.
And I know that I have not yetmet another single Jewish Israeli
woman to ever live inside aPalestinian Israeli village with
(57:44):
unmarried single men in thehousehold who have become my brothers.
And it was a very, very unique experience.
And I'm still honored to havehad that experience.
It's given me perspective intoa very different world that I would
(58:05):
normally not have had theprivilege to be a part of.
And it also showed me thatthere's more nuance than even previously.
It expanded my understandingof the conflict in many different
ways.
(58:25):
I can go into all of theexamples, everything from foraging
with them for Meluki and Akuband porcupine and being told that
it's illegal for them toforage these foods that their families
have been foraging forcenturies in the area.
(58:49):
And finding out from localIsraeli environmentalists saying,
well, at the rate that they'reforaging and eating the porcupine,
there won't be any of thisleft if they don't learn to conserve
and to farm effectively.
So I see tensions between, youknow, traditional way of life, but
(59:10):
also how to sustaintraditional ways of life.
And that's just one example on food.
My favorite would be, oh, aleg afin, the stuffed grape leaves.
And they make it fantastic.
But one particular pot, thisone batch was so good.
(59:35):
And they start laughing.
I don't know why they'relaughing at me eating it.
And I know.
And I was like, oh, no, what.
What meat did you put in here anyway?
They're like, no, it's not themeat, sweetie, it's the leaves.
And I had no idea that youcould eat the leaves of the recafet,
(01:00:00):
the sikliman plant, and thatis the national Israeli state flower.
And I was like, bul, this is hilarious.
This is what I'm eating, andthis is why they're laughing.
So this is what I got exposedto, and it was really important for
me to have that experience.
And so when I hear the podcastUnapologetic, the third narrative,
(01:00:25):
which is from the perspectivesof various Israeli Palestinians,
I actually can relate muchmore to what is being spoken there
than any other podcast that Ifound on the topic discussing October
7th and the aftermath from that.
Because I do come from morethan one world and I have experienced
(01:00:49):
more than one world.
And that's also what is sobeautiful about this word.
I can also personally relateto, as someone who grew up in the
Galilee, many times for me,and I also come from a quite conservative
family, and many times,actually, my Arab gay friends were
(01:01:16):
my best friends because wecould really understand each other,
like.
And life are much morecomplicated than a football game.
And this kind of diversitiesare very, very important.
And I think it also leads tothe fact that there's a lot of responsibility
(01:01:37):
to anything that we say.
And for many people who seethemselves as change makers, who
deal with LGBT issues, buteventually they split the stuff into
sides or football games,actually something that is really
(01:02:01):
damaging and makes a lot ofpain, actually, to those who care
and deal with it.
And with that, it's not.
This is not for doing tikkun olam.
This is not the real.
At least the way I see it.
Carmel, thank you very, very much.
(01:02:24):
I really.
I love you, dear.
I'm so glad that we did that.
And I hope that we gave somefood for thought.
So Shabbat shalom.
Thank you very much.
Let's talk for and about theLGBT communities around the world.
I'm Michael Ross and this isStraight Friendly.
She's a community engagementprofessional and is the founder and
executive director of JQTVancouver, a 100% volunteer run Jewish,
(06:43):
queer and trans charitablenonprofit in Canada dedicated to
queering Jewish spaces andJewifying queer spaces.
Carmel Tanaka.
Hello.
Hello.
Hi.
Good to have you here.
Thanks for having me.
Oh my God, we're just doing it.
(07:05):
Carmel, I'm so glad to haveyou here.
And I just started like Ilanded so somehow on you once.
I only arrived to Canada aftera whole year of like no matting all
around after this crazy yearthat started and here then I found
(07:30):
some, some little sisteralmost, I would say, where we've
been like sharing so many stuff.
I will never, never, everforget our first conversation.
The I felt like some of myhours listeners should also have
the privilege of a bit talkingwith you.
(07:50):
So I'm really, really, reallyglad, my dear.
I'm honored.
You know, you were in themiddle of nowhere, Hope, British
Columbia when you contacted me.
And so I just feel like weconnected so beautifully and I'm
excited to.
Continue and we found so manythings in common.
(08:12):
And we will be talking here,of course, about J Cutie and also
about your activism, which isinvolving so many different subjects
that all of them are very interesting.
But I have to say that I also,I connected with you by soul.
You know, it's not only aboutan interest about a subject.
(08:32):
And actually I'm just nowtelling you a surprise that and Carmel
had no idea before that.
I'm also launching a newpodcast about Jewish LGBTQ life.
And you're actually one of thefirst, very first guests and so prize.
So welcome both to StraightFriendly Global, but also to this
(08:55):
new podcast about Jewish life,lgbtq, Jewish life around the world.
And it was important for me tostart with you because the first
time we talked, like there waslike this kind of like blast connection
of like, oh my God, someonehere really can understand me and
I can really understand thatother person without even meeting
(09:16):
each other before.
Right?
Mazel tov.
This is so exciting.
Mazal Tov.
Kapara.
Kapara.
Luckily we are recordingremotely, so I cannot just jump on
you and hug you.
(09:36):
Okay, so we will be talking about.
Yes, a virtual hug.
A virtual hug.
So we'll be talking about jqt.
There are so many stuff thatwe have to talk about.
And also for you, I discoveredalso something which I've never knew
(09:58):
about, which.
And it's like this term of Japanese.
So we have to start with that.
I mean like, tell us a bitbecause Carmel is really like a combination
of so many differentidentities and opinions and.
Yeah, let's, let's, let's start.
(10:18):
I'll take it away for thosewho are watching or listening.
My full name is Carmel Tanakaand so my first name is Hebrew and
my last name is Japanese.
My mother is Ashkenazi Israelifrom Haifa.
And so there's no surprisethat I would be named Carmel after
(10:39):
the mountain.
And then my father is JapaneseCanadian, third generation, so that
makes me a Yonsei, a fourthgeneration Japanese Canadian.
And I've recently discoveredthat they come from a pre 100 to
120 years ago called Fukuokaon Kyushu island of Japan.
Wow, that's.
(11:01):
Wow.
Tell me, did you invent thatterm of a Japanese or how did you
find that?
Like I love that.
So that's a great question.
I'm working on an oral historyproject called the Japanese Project
where I interview Jewish andJapanese individuals, couples and
(11:22):
families all over the world.
So far I've got over 80 plusinterviews and the first time I heard
this term Japanese I probablywas in actually University of Tel
Aviv.
So this would have been circa2005, 2006.
There was a lovely studentfrom California, San Diego who introduced
(11:48):
me to this term and I latchedonto it immediately because this
felt appropriate to sayJapanese as opposed to half Japanese
and half Jewish or thesefractions, which I'm neither.
I'm fully Jewish and I'm fully Japanese.
However, during the interviewsof the oral history project, some
(12:10):
people started to take claimsbeing the first to coin the term
Japanese.
So there isn't a consensus onwho started it, but I can tell you
for sure it started inCalifornia, early 2000s.
Oh wow, wow, that's so interesting.
And you're involved in so manydifferent subjects and also with
(12:35):
your name Carmel, we foundsome similarities with East European
background, apparently alsoliving in Israel.
I was born and raised in Israel.
For you it was definitely likeliving for several years, right?
And also in some other partsof the country.
And actually my last stop inIsrael was Haifa as well.
(13:02):
And I think that also what wefound in common and I felt very comfortable
talking with you, it's aboutthe crazy year after October 7th.
Now I know that this is notthe focus of our episode now, but
I think that this is somethingthat we cannot, we cannot deny or
(13:24):
ignore because yes, it's likeaffecting all of us and some of the
listeners are maybe not inthat much in the field and Maybe
I think it is important thatwe will be a bit sharing.
I I have to say that untilrecent year I had a law that a rule
that I'm not dealing withpolitics and political parties or
(13:46):
politicians in my podcasts andI'm that I'm avoiding some subjects
but with Israeli one maybe Iwas a bit more tricky but with English
one I didn't And I think it'slike the last year has I I'm not
sure if I have enough words toexplain my feelings, my thoughts,
(14:06):
especially in the intersectionof the Jewish identities and the
LGBTQ + identities and the somany different identities which I
think which is what is very beautiful.
But for me as someone who wasbut his ex boyfriend is Israeli Palestinian,
(14:28):
I felt like that a lot of thediscourse like I couldn't really
be myself since October 7th,really couldn't be completely myself
neither in Israel, neitherabroad without canceling some of
the stuff and I didn't want toand also as what you said about being
let's say a Japanese it's notabout being health, health.
(14:51):
It's full of this and that.
So and this is something whichI think is very, very interesting
and I'm an Israeli who's justsuddenly exploring Canada and some
other countries and I'm still learning.
But I think that from yourside like you have some different
perspective or experience thanI have although that we've been few
(15:11):
years in Israel and althoughwe do share some similar stuff.
But I want to like what isyour perspective and feeling like
what was for you that year andand how do you combine your activism,
your views with some stuffthat for some people might seem as
contradicting each other.
(15:33):
Not from my side by the way.
What a question.
I mean how much time you got?
It's been a really difficultyear for me personally and I have
seen how it impacts me in anegative but also a lot of my community
(15:58):
members, particularly in theJewish and queer community, I can
dive into how that affects meprofessionally in a minute.
But I'm going to take a momentto talk about how it was for me personally.
I'm one of the very fewIsraelis that I know in the Jewish
queer community in Vancouver,where I reside, where I live.
(16:20):
And so my connection toIsraelis and who attended say for
example the NOVA party or whohas been impacted by the continuing
war is different for than alot of other people that are here.
(16:43):
I have deeply personal connections.
My first cousin's son was inattendance the party and since then
I've learned of friends offriends and Family, friends who have
been all impacted.
And of course my family andfriends live in bomb shelters these
(17:05):
days.
So that was my immediateexperience, was just wanting to make
sure that my family andfriends were safe while a lot of
people here were starting toturn to activism, protesting, wanting
(17:25):
to stop what's going on.
And I wasn't in that mentalspace yet.
I was still just on WhatsApp.
I was messaging friends, justseeing if they're alive.
I was in a very differentplace and it was tough because they
(17:46):
tell you to help with yourmental health, go on walks, go outside.
And every time I would go outI would see stickers on lamp posts
or posters of the hostagesbeing defaced with swastikas or ripped
from vandals.
(18:06):
So it didn't matter where Iwent in order to free my mind, I
was constantly reminded andinundated and re triggered.
So there was nowhere otherthan my own home, the safety of my
own home.
And as a result, I hermittedfor a year inside my little hobbit
hole here in Vancouver.
And my social circle becameand still remains quite small, only
(18:30):
to a trusted queue.
Those who have a capacity tofeel compassion for all victims of
the war, not just one groupwho have the ability to offer or
think with critical thinkingand nuanced ideas and perspectives
(18:54):
and are not interested inmansplaining you or trying to change
and waiver your.
Your personal experience aretrying to tell you that your pain
doesn't matter.
Yeah, so there's that.
That was my personalexperience which came along with
both family and friendshipruptures because not everyone has
(19:19):
or shares the same opinionacross the board.
And I recognize that there's afull spectrum of opinion in the Jewish
community and also outside ofthe Jewish community.
Although it feels very onesided these days.
Outside of the Jewish community.
And so then professionallyrunning a Jewish, queer and trans
(19:42):
charitable nonprofit duringthis time has presented itself with
immense challenges.
Pressure from both the Jewishcommunity as well as the queer community
to take particular stance onthe conflict.
And at jqd we don't.
Our stance is that weacknowledge that there's a full breadth
(20:02):
of experiences, opinions, andsome people don't even want to express
an opinion.
For them it's a non issue.
They've never set foot in Israel.
For them it's a moot point.
So our focus is to ensure thatwe create safer queer Jewish spaces
(20:23):
so that queer Jewish peoplecan celebrate all of themselves and
not have to hide any oneparticular identity in order to fit
in.
I think that many people don'teven realize the so much of pressure
that so many of us are, aregoing from in.
(20:47):
First of all, especially forpeople who I think that for any human
and I so much agree with youthat it's like it's about human rights,
it's about human life and thiskind of discourse of choosing sides
like it's some football game.
And that for some people orgroups that are not even personally
(21:11):
involved with that, but theyhave a very strong opinion.
And I would say that also forme, there was some feeling of even
some kind of betray.
Because if you are a humanrights activist, you are a human
rights activist, not only onekind of human or make the differentiation.
(21:36):
So.
So yeah, and, and I can saythat as, as an Israeli, but I've
been always very much in contact.
I've been always traveling a lot.
I've been always working onexpanding my views.
And for instance, for me, whatis very, very impactful was the discovering
(21:59):
almost a decade ago, the cbst,the Queer Synagogue in New York,
that was the place for mewhere for the first time I could
connect between both my gayqueer identities with my Jewish identities.
(22:20):
And in Israel, the discourseis very much.
It's like it's your eitherqueer secular completely, or you're
like Orthodox.
Like there's.
It's very difficult to findsomething in between.
And I thought that I'm.
I'm more open and more likemany times in my Hebrew podcast,
I talk about those experiencesfrom that I had in those synagogues,
(22:45):
especially also this year, andI went also to Toronto in Canada.
It's very different than theUS we'll talk also about that.
But also this year I learnedthat maybe I'm not so close to some
of the communities that Ifought or was hoping for.
And for me, what I learnedduring the last months, including
(23:08):
here, while being in Canada,and I do find Canada to be very liberal
compared to many countries,let's say.
But at the same time, I alsodiscovered that the Israeli communities
and the Jewish communities arenot necessarily the same.
Right.
(23:29):
So how do you see it from your side?
And I think maybe like I onlynow realize that you said that, like
the fact that you knowpersonally some people who've been
affected, which is also mycase, and I think, I'm not sure if
we even talked about it, butmaybe because we look at the situation
(23:56):
as something which is alsopersonal, like something which is
like we know the human beings.
So maybe this makes for us,the views to be more complicated
and difficult, but maybe moreclose to reality than.
Someone yeah, we don't seethem as football players.
(24:16):
We see them as our family andfriends, which is very different.
And I think that would changea lot of people's perspectives if
it were their family andfriends who are being directly impacted.
You're talking about what myviews are or stances on Jewish community
in Canada.
(24:38):
I mean, we could get into sometypical Canadian politics, which
is know, east coast versuswest coast.
We could talk about cityversus rural points of views.
I mean there's a hugediversity within Canada alone.
Lots of different people.
But within the Jewishcommunity, I would say that there's
(24:59):
many different denominations,there's many different subgroups,
but all in all, I would saythe majority is more conservative
than what you would find inthe U.S.
in fact, on most issues, whenit comes to same sex marriage or
to intermarriage, God forbid,we are definitely 10 to 15 years
(25:19):
behind some of the moreprogressive Jewish movements in the
US here in Canada.
So I'm not surprised that yourexperience being here in a liberal
progressive country andexperiencing some Jewish conservatism,
that is for sure.
(25:39):
Although you would say, manywould say that west coast Jewish
community is more progressivethan liberal.
I mean, I've spent time inToronto, I've spent time in Montreal
and very much feels same samein many ways.
And you've been also living inthe us if I remember correct.
(26:03):
Yeah, in so many places.
Maybe also one more thing thatis connected between us.
And I think it's alsoimportant to mention the fact that
Canada is huge.
When I took a flight fromVancouver to Toronto, I was sure
it will be like half an hour,one hour.
I didn't realize it's gonna behalfway across the world.
(26:30):
But like we say the termcommunity but it's not like just
as I say with LGBTQ plus communities.
And it's not one community.
There are many different communities.
And that's the thing world so,so beautiful.
The, the diversity is aroundthat and also from, from my research.
So in Toronto we have around300,000 Jewish people, while in Vancouver
(26:56):
in the west coast it is way,way, way, way, way smaller.
Like almost like just only ifI remember correct, it's around only
10% of that like thestatistics are, were conducted before
the Hamas Israel war and theHezbollah war.
And probably it's changingbecause there are so many Israelis
(27:18):
arriving now to Canada due toits policies and the war visa, both
for Israelis and for Palestinians.
So even when talking aboutVancouver, it's still like you think
that it's like a veryprogressive or west and big Community,
but actually it's quite, quiteof a small community.
(27:39):
Right, communities.
And you're saying that it'salso 15 years behind.
I didn't know that by the way,at all.
And I talk with so many.
I'll give you an example.
So intermarriage in the Reformmovement in the U.S.
well, they accept that.
They also accept patrilinealJews, but that's not the case here.
There's still, there's nowefforts to move forward.
(28:02):
What?
I'm sorry, the patrilineal Jews?
What do you mean?
Yeah, so to recognize Jewishpeople who have, say a father who
is Jewish and a mother, thatis not, but to still consider them
to be Jewish.
So in Canada, what it's likecompared to us or in the Reform movement.
(28:23):
The Reform movement doesn'trecognize patrilineal dissents in
Canada yet.
And it's up to the boards ofeach synagogue, I mean as a national
movement, as the Reformmovement in North America, they do
recognize it, but it's stillup to each synagogue.
The production of this episodecame to reality thanks to the support
(28:43):
of the Friedrich Naumannfoundation for Freedom in Jerusalem.
So you know, whenever I talkwith entrepreneurs or what I like
to call change makers becauseentrepreneurship is not only about
startups, but it's also aboutcreating non profits campaigns.
And I always say, and it tookme lots of years to realize that
(29:06):
change making also starts withsome internal change making with
some self development.
And it's very important thatfor change makers that are affecting
other people, that we willstart also from ourselves, let's
say.
And it starts by always likefrom what I find that best entrepreneurs
(29:29):
or change makers are those whosolve or try to solve real problems
and not just go and try tomake money or not.
And like we are now talkingabout J Cutie, which is a 100 volunteer
only volunteers, I wish foryou and hope for you that it will
enlarge too much more than that.
And not only volunteersbecause you're doing something very,
(29:51):
very, very important.
And I wanted to ask first iswhat problem or problems you saw?
Maybe first of all from yourside, your personal view as a change
maker, but also of course theproblems that you saw that other
people are facing with.
(30:12):
So what were these problemsthat led to the solution of creating
jqd?
Oh, this is a multi pronged answer.
So I hope you're ready.
So I first got involved withJewish LGBTQ celebration of Pride
(30:33):
when I was workingprofessionally in community engagement
in the Jewish community Pride,Vancouver Pride particularly, and
the marching in Pride was partof my roster.
It was one of my files.
And I felt very honored to bethe person behind the scenes to organize
(30:55):
this.
And in many ways at the time,I wasn't out as queer yet, even though
I led a very queer lifealready up until that point, I thought
I had bypassed the need tohave a coming out story.
I thought we had progressedfar enough in society where my friends
(31:16):
and family already knew there was.
I wasn't hiding it, nor was Iattaching to a particular letter.
So in many ways, I guess I wasa Trojan horse for the Jewish community.
But I also did it because, andI think this is something that we
have talked about.
(31:37):
My dear cousin, Nir Katz inTel Aviv was murdered in a shooting,
the Bar Noir shooting.
And he was murdered because of homophobia.
And it really impacted me.
And just in general, therights of LGBTQ people and, you know,
(32:03):
being free to love whomeverthey want to love.
And so this was a way to honorhis memory.
And so JQD actually developedout of me recognizing that we're
not just queer or part of theLGBTQ community for one day or one
(32:23):
week or one month out of the year.
It's 365 days of the year.
And I was already, I guess,anti performative allyship back then.
And so in 2018, I organized agroup of queer and trans Jewish people
to hold conversations around,you know, what do we need throughout
(32:50):
the rest of the year.
And that's how JQD started.
It was in near Katz's memoryand initially, and he was a huge
supporter of wanting to helpyouth who were questioning their
identity.
And so this, for me felt likea very natural way to honor him.
(33:13):
And then as we developed fromjust a grassroots community, just
a small group of volunteers,into a charity, today we've now really
expanded and through propercommunity assessments and speaking
with our community, we nowknow what the needs of our community
(33:34):
are.
So, for example, properinclusion of Jewish, queer and trans
seniors.
We didn't realize up until,what was it, Covid 2020, when we
did an oral history projectinterviewing elders in our community,
we started to hear them sharetheir fears of having to go back
(33:57):
twofold into the closet oncebecause they're part of the LGBTQ
community and also becausethey're Jewish.
And that's when we learnedthat long term care homes, hospice
care, even the hospital isvery Christian centric here in bc.
And there were demands orrequests from our elders to create
(34:23):
Jewish, queer and transfriendly housing for them.
And as a group of volunteerswith at the time, $500 in our bank
account.
We knew that that was notpossible to achieve.
You know, building care homescan be a 20 year project, costs tons
of money.
So we knew that our bestefforts were to advocate and to make
(34:46):
changes with existinginstitutions and the existing infrastructure
for senior care in our province.
And that led to the formationof the JQD Seniors Initiative, a
seniors resource guide whichessentially provides information
of what a Jewish, queer andtrans senior in B.C.
(35:07):
can and cannot plan for in theyear 2023.
At the time, now 2024, when itcomes to Jewish burial, dying, last
rites in a Jewish context,this is, you know, burial with Havre
Kadisha.
Will their trans and nonbinary bodies be respected in both
(35:29):
the liturgy and in the groundand in ceremony?
And it's complicated because alot of people who are in the JQD
community and also the greaterJewish community here in North America
are in mixed marriages andintermarriage may be okay in life
as long as you're payingmembership dues to the various different
(35:50):
synagogues, but in death thisbecomes a very taboo subject because
your non Jewish partner thatyou've shared your life with, who
has come to synagogue withyou, your children have been a part
of synagogue life.
That person is not allowed tobe buried with you.
It could be in an adjacentcemetery that might be married to
(36:11):
a synagogue cemetery if you'relucky, but it's usually not within
the cemetery grounds of aJewish cemetery.
And so people don't know thisuntil the time comes their death
comes.
And family members need torush extremely quickly.
They have 24 hours before thebody needs to go into the ground.
And in that time, that is notlong enough to educate yourself on
(36:35):
what can and cannot beavailable to you in a Jewish and
queer and trans context.
So we asked the hard questionson behalf of our community and put
it into a resource guide thatallows people to make informed decisions.
And the best thing to havecome from this is people now, I think
(36:59):
have less anxiety becausethere were a lot of unknowns before.
Not everyone is a member, apaying member of a Jewish synagogue
and many are unaffiliated andjust simply didn't think that a Jewish
burial was possible for them.
And now they know it ispossible with some concessions.
But now they have to navigateif their non Jewish partner can also
(37:23):
be with them.
So little by little we dohave, you know, some recent wins.
The COVID Kadisha here inVancouver, preemptively as a member
of the JQD Seniors Initiative,has accepted non binary liturgy in
(37:43):
advance of A non binary death.
They know and we told themmore trans and more non binary people
will be dying in the Jewishcommunity moving forward.
Best to prepare now ratherthan feel this rush to create an
ad hoc committee to figure outhow to do this.
Everything's super rush rushwhen someone dies, do it before someone
(38:06):
dies.
I see this even as somethingwhich is a very Jewish thing to do.
You know, like sometimes therecan be this discourse about is it
Jewish or not Jewish, is itlike according to the.
Or not.
But I think if going to ouressence actually like vodka, the
respect of the dead is so muchimportant that actually what you're
(38:28):
doing here is about actuallytouching the very base of being Jewish
and the Jewish culture.
And I think it is, it is muchstronger and more important than.
I mean like, I'm quite surethat Kvodomet is more important than
(38:51):
someone's identity.
In my, in my opinion, like,like what you're doing actually,
you're like, you'retransforming to be even more Jewish
than it is in some way.
It is more liberal, but it ismore Jewish in some way.
No.
I'm really impressed, to behonest, that I even received answers
(39:16):
from some of the most orthodoxstakeholders when it comes to Jewish
burial and death, that theyrespected J.
Cutie in my position enough toprovide this answer.
And I do think it's becausedeath is the most important issue
and being able to educate notonly the Jewish community on the
(39:36):
importance of being buriedJewishly for those who want to be
buried Jewishly, but also wecan, in advance of death, help healthcare
people providing who arecaregivers, who are providing medical
assistance, who are providingemotional assistance, spiritual assistance
to seniors so that they can beable to provide more inclusive care
(40:00):
for Jewish, queer and trans seniors.
Right now in our provincialhealthcare, no health care authority
asks if someone is part of theLGBTQ community.
And so they don't even know.
And I understand that personcentered care is a hot trendy word
(40:22):
these days in health care.
How can you be truly providingperson centered care if you don't
know one of the identities ofthe people that you're caring for?
And the argument that we keephearing from healthcare providers
is you're a human with bloodand a heartbeat and we will provide
(40:42):
you the same care no matterwho you are.
However, that might not meetthe emotional, mental, physical and
spiritual needs of the individual.
So.
And we know that our work canbe translated into any particular
(41:05):
community that has more thanone identity that is not part of
the Christian centric majorityhere in Canada.
So we're optimistic that thiswill be used in a way to help educate
people.
We're offering training now ofhealthcare providers.
Yeah, I had no idea that Iwould be going from an events based
(41:31):
JQD group, volunteers wherejust trying to find my basher to
social services and offeringsupport into some of the most marginalized
people in our community.
And for me it sounds likethere's still so much more to do.
And from what I've beenlearning, like Canada is it's not
(41:52):
only big geographically, butwe're talking about around more than
40 million citizens that live here.
And for me it was very surprising.
I have to say that when I waslooking for a queer synagogue, I
found only one.
And you know, I would compareit a little bit with the hospitals
(42:13):
for instance and Venetia, of course.
It's very difficult to makecomparison between a death and life
institute, like a hospitalwith something which is more spiritual
and maybe so only social, I think.
Or not only like a synagogue.
Also for me, I would say likeit's like many times people ask why
do you need your own synagogue?
Why do you need your own stuff?
(42:34):
I mean like first of all, ifthere are some stuff, it means that
there is a demand, that thereis a need.
So if there is a need, itdidn't happen.
Sounds probably, but it'snatural in my view at least.
That's also what Yuvano Hararisays quite a lot in his historical
books.
And I would say that for me itwas very surprising that according
(42:55):
to my research and we've beentalking about it together and I've
been also talking with thecantor of Shirley Beno in Toronto,
but it seems like Cheryl,Cheryl, she's really, really, really,
really, really amazing.
And like that.
I went there by the way, twicealso for Yom Kippur and I cannot
(43:17):
explain how much it is muchmore spiritual when for me at least
being in a place where it ismore targeted towards, towards you.
And I understand that thereare some synagogues which are friendly
(43:38):
and opening up.
Thank you.
Took some time.
But my perspective, and alsoas the name of my podcast and stuff
is a straight, friendly perspective.
I mean like there's somethingvery strong with the fact that like
it's queer and it's alsofriendly for vibers.
I think that that statement isimportant and seems like we still
(43:59):
have lot of, lots of steps to do.
Surprisingly also here inCanada that it's, let's say adoption
rights here are much betterthan in Israel.
Like it's almost full, youknow, like it seems like for an Israeli
arriving here, what?
It's all probably perfect and stuff.
No, things are a bit morecomplicated in reality.
(44:22):
I have something to share with you.
It's not going to change thenarrative that we've just created,
but it will offer just morecomplexity into this conversation.
So one of the things that Iwant to dive deeper into and this
was part of the oral historyproject I did for JQD was to document
(44:43):
adoption and surrogacy toJewish families here in B.C.
and one of the mostinteresting finds I found is typically
Israeli men who are at thetime were looking to expand their
families were able to havetheir children converted in Conservative
(45:08):
synagogues before same sexmarriage was even allowed in the
Conservative movement.
Oh wow, how dumb.
Which is fascinating.
And you would think, well, weknow that Conservative conversions
are the ones that arerecognized along with Orthodox conversions
(45:29):
by Israel and that Reform andReconstructionist renewal, maybe
Reform Reform now, but atleast I know historically did not
consider those to be fullJewish conversions.
But this is an interestingpoint that, you know, the first same
(45:49):
sex marriage and aconservative movement that was recognized
was in 2020 here in Vancouver.
There were before in Victoria,but you know, oh, this is all outlined
in the oral history projectwhich I really recommend people to
check out.
(46:10):
It's at JQDVancouver CA.
We really document the 100years of Jewish, queer and trans
history.
All the, you know, thosedifferent synagogues and denominations
at different times, trying toadvocate for it, you know, going
ahead with some ceremoniesthat split communities in half.
And then, you know, this isall documented in the Jewish archives
(46:34):
too, which is really wonderfulthat the, you know, the Jewish newspapers
at the time were recordingthis feud and of course there were
splinter communities and yada,yada, yada.
Anyway, all of this is shownthat in Vancouver at the very least,
the first officiallyrecognized gay marriage was in 2020,
(46:57):
or at least during early daysof the pandemic and there were conversions
of Jewish children to queerIsraeli families prior to that.
So that's fascinating.
That's really, really, really interesting.
We will also live here.
You will send me the link andalso we will try to put it also in
(47:18):
the description of thisepisode that people will be able
to see also.
And I would also ask how canpeople be involved or assist to your
activism and the veryimportant issues that you are dealing
with?
The simplest way would be tovisit our website jqtvancouver Ca.
(47:42):
There's contact details there.
Send us an email, let us know,you know, if you're a local in Vancouver.
Even if you are not local toVancouver, we'd love to hear from
you.
Whether it's involved in theJQD Seniors initiative in our mental
health support series.
I mean there's lots going onat JQD and we don't pretend to be
(48:05):
a cross Canada organization asthere are other Jewish queer groups
in Canada.
However, that doesn't meanjust because you don't live locally
in Vancouver, you can help us out.
Yeah.
So most of the say like areyou looking for, for donations for
(48:25):
buying like or like signing upfor a newsletter or social media
how people can be engaged andhelp with what you do and also some
of the stuff, let's say thecooperation is also very important.
So what else can people do to.
To be part of what you'redoing, to be part of a solutions?
(48:47):
We have a monthly newsletterthat you can sign up for on our website.
You can also make a monthlydonation or even a one time donation.
We'll accept your money.
We are Canada's firsthomegrown Jewish, queer and trans
charity.
So we are able to offer taxreceipts which is a huge win for
(49:11):
us.
It takes a long time to becomea charity or to be designated as
a charity.
I would say thank you.
Thank you.
I mean it's taken many years.
We've been.
Since 2018.
Wow.
Yeah, wow.
Long time.
You know Carmel, we're aboutto get to the end of the episode
(49:37):
actually and I would say thatI am.
I had no idea actually aboutthe story of Necat and the fact that
you are related.
We've been talking quite a lotbut I didn't, I didn't know about
that.
And I think that like also thefact that it led you also like, you
(49:57):
know, like there's a lot ofpain in this word and we are recording
it in the time of lots of painand, and death and brutality and
you know, it's like a bitMisha al Kuma from Holocaust to revival
or from pain to change making.
(50:20):
I had no idea.
So actually I feel veryprivileged now because first of all
I believe in it that ifthere's a pain, the best way is to
do tikkun olam from that.
Like to make the world to be abetter place.
Unfortunately we also now intimes that we see how for some people
activists that the positionthat they get to, they're not necessarily
(50:46):
empowering ours, you know.
And I think so that it's notsomething that can be taken as granted.
And you know, for me actuallythat event that was very impactful
for me for Those who don'tknow in Israel in 2009, August 2009.
(51:08):
I really remember that it wasjust around the week that my grandmother
passed away.
So it was like one week ofbeing in the Shiva of my grandmother.
And at the same time there wasthis horrible shooting to one of
Tel Aviv's youth gay center,Barnoar, which was a youth club for
(51:35):
teenagers who are LGBTQ plus.
And up until today, thisissue, this horrible crime was not
completely discovered in termsof like, we.
We still don't completely knowwho's the horrible person behind
(51:58):
that.
And there was a shooting there.
Two of the volunteers therepassed away and one of them is near
cuts.
So, yeah, I think it's.
It's important to remember.
It's important to remember.
It's also important to.
To do Tikkun out of.
(52:19):
Out of the pain.
So thank you, Carmel.
I didn't know.
I was thinking about them alot, by the way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
His last text message to mewas just a few days before he was
planning his wedding to Tamas.
(52:42):
And we all used to livetogether and give a time.
Mir was my closest cousin, notin blood relation, but in like our.
We were similar age and welived together while I was studying
in Tel Aviv.
(53:02):
And when I was already back inVancouver, he knew that gay marriage
was a possibility in Canada,so he and to.
To come to Vancouver to get married.
So his last text message to mewas, how much are cell phone plans?
(53:22):
Oh, not here.
And I said, highway robbery.
Yeah.
Carmel talking from about painand Tikkun, I think that you also
(53:43):
have some very interestingstory from Israel with some not only
Jewish backgrounds and onlyJewish feminists to open the door
for you.
Right?
Yeah.
I would say that we have avery unique relationship with an
(54:06):
Israeli Palestinian family,the Mawasi family in Faradays near
Zakhornyakov.
My mom would take a taxi fromthe Rekhava to the train from Benjamina
to Zakroniakov.
And one day she.
(54:27):
Her taxi driver was rousingher a little bit because he knew
that she clearly didn'trecognize him, but he had recognized
her.
When we went walking from ourapartment to the moshav that has
(54:49):
a swimming pool just beneath.
And when we arrived, it was avery funny scene because the swimming
pool had just redone theirtiles, but the person or the company
laying down the tiles forgotto glue the tiles.
And so when we arrived, allthe water had lifted all the tiles,
(55:10):
and so all the tiles were floating.
And there was a whole group ofpeople, the lifeguards, they're all
from Far east, and they'reall, we're all laughing hysterically
because we came to swim, notrealizing that this had happened.
And it was a funny moment, of course.
You know, we all chuckled andwe're like, okay, I guess we'll come
(55:31):
back another time.
So he remembered my mom and me.
And so he pretended to say,you know what?
I know exactly who you are.
You're Dalia, and yourdaughter is Carmel.
And my mom in the taxicouldn't, was very scared because,
how does this person know whoI am?
And once he realized that mymom was quite fearful of how does
(55:53):
this person know who she is?
He explained that he was oneof the guys at the swimming pool.
And then from that moment on,he became my mom's favorite taxi
driver.
And they would do a little,you know, sea move to a full awful
stand or to, you know,shawarma, and make detours on their
way to the train station.
(56:14):
And then after some months ofthis, he invited my mom, time.
It's time for you to come fora Friday lunch with my family.
And my mom did.
Now, my mom comes from a veryconservative leak food background,
and so for her to do this,there was a big deal.
(56:36):
And from that moment on, ourfamilies became extremely close.
In fact, they're my mishpocha.
This is these.
These are the people that.
The first people that Iactually texted on November 7, I
mean, October 7, was thisfamily just to make sure that they're
okay.
(56:58):
And they're the people whopick us up from the airport when
we come to visit.
I'm there more than I am withanybody else in Israel these days.
And so much so that I do thinkthat this gives me a different perspective
than even a lot of Israelis.
(57:19):
And I also used to live with them.
There was a time I lived inFaradays for six months.
And I know that I have not yetmet another single Jewish Israeli
woman to ever live inside aPalestinian Israeli village with
(57:44):
unmarried single men in thehousehold who have become my brothers.
And it was a very, very unique experience.
And I'm still honored to havehad that experience.
It's given me perspective intoa very different world that I would
(58:05):
normally not have had theprivilege to be a part of.
And it also showed me thatthere's more nuance than even previously.
It expanded my understandingof the conflict in many different
ways.
(58:25):
I can go into all of theexamples, everything from foraging
with them for Meluki and Akuband porcupine and being told that
it's illegal for them toforage these foods that their families
have been foraging forcenturies in the area.
(58:49):
And finding out from localIsraeli environmentalists saying,
well, at the rate that they'reforaging and eating the porcupine,
there won't be any of thisleft if they don't learn to conserve
and to farm effectively.
So I see tensions between, youknow, traditional way of life, but
(59:10):
also how to sustaintraditional ways of life.
And that's just one example on food.
My favorite would be, oh, aleg afin, the stuffed grape leaves.
And they make it fantastic.
But one particular pot, thisone batch was so good.
(59:35):
And they start laughing.
I don't know why they'relaughing at me eating it.
And I know.
And I was like, oh, no, what.
What meat did you put in here anyway?
They're like, no, it's not themeat, sweetie, it's the leaves.
And I had no idea that youcould eat the leaves of the recafet,
(01:00:00):
the sikliman plant, and thatis the national Israeli state flower.
And I was like, bul, this is hilarious.
This is what I'm eating, andthis is why they're laughing.
So this is what I got exposedto, and it was really important for
me to have that experience.
And so when I hear the podcastUnapologetic, the third narrative,
(01:00:25):
which is from the perspectivesof various Israeli Palestinians,
I actually can relate muchmore to what is being spoken there
than any other podcast that Ifound on the topic discussing October
7th and the aftermath from that.
Because I do come from morethan one world and I have experienced
(01:00:49):
more than one world.
And that's also what is sobeautiful about this word.
I can also personally relateto, as someone who grew up in the
Galilee, many times for me,and I also come from a quite conservative
family, and many times,actually, my Arab gay friends were
(01:01:16):
my best friends because wecould really understand each other,
like.
And life are much morecomplicated than a football game.
And this kind of diversitiesare very, very important.
And I think it also leads tothe fact that there's a lot of responsibility
(01:01:37):
to anything that we say.
And for many people who seethemselves as change makers, who
deal with LGBT issues, buteventually they split the stuff into
sides or football games,actually something that is really
(01:02:01):
damaging and makes a lot ofpain, actually, to those who care
and deal with it.
And with that, it's not.
This is not for doing tikkun olam.
This is not the real.
At least the way I see it.
Carmel, thank you very, very much.
(01:02:24):
I really.
I love you, dear.
I'm so glad that we did that.
And I hope that we gave somefood for thought.
So Shabbat shalom.
Thank you very much.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.