October 7, 2025 • 38 mins
Check out the Embracing Uncertainty Workshop, October 20, 2025!
The draft feels stuck, the notes aren’t talking, and your outline suddenly looks like wishful thinking. We’ve all been there. Trevor sits down with writing coach and historian-turned-book coach Christina Larocco to unpack a calm, repeatable way to turn uncertainty into momentum—without waiting for a muse or getting lost in another stack of sources.
Christina shares the simple two-column exercise that changes everything: list what you know on one side and what you don’t know on the other. Those unknowns become concrete questions, and questions become small, focused experiments you can run in a single session. We dig into structured freewriting, constraint-based prompts, and playful methods—from writing a paragraph three ways to sketching a three-panel comic—that coax clarity when the page feels hostile. You’ll hear how to stop the common avoidance loops: surface-level tinkering, endless research, and premature abandonment of promising drafts.
Together we challenge the plotter vs. pantser binary and show how both camps can cross-train. Plotters plan for discovery so surprises strengthen structure instead of derailing it. Pantsers add light scaffolds to restart momentum when instinct stalls. Then we map these tools to the 12-week year framework: breaking a chapter into solvable questions, scheduling micro-experiments, and measuring progress by decisions made, not hours suffered. Whether you’re shaping an academic article, a business book, or a novel’s messy middle, you’ll leave with practical moves to reduce panic, invite curiosity, and make the unknown do the work.
If this conversation helps, share it with a writer who’s stuck, subscribe for more craft and process insights, and leave a quick review—it helps others find the show and join the work-in-progress.
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To celebrate, you can join the 12 Week Year Writers membership for 50% off the first three months.
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My team and I help writers get their writing done. If you're stuck, it's not a knowledge problem. It's not a skill issue. And it's not a motivation or willpower thing. You know what you need to do and how to do it. The problem is consistent execution: getting the writing done week in and week out.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the Twelve Week Ear for Writers
Podcast.
I'm Trevor Thrall, author of theTwelve Week Year for Writers.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please submit a review wherever
you get your podcasts.
And for updates on the podcastand other writing resources,
please subscribe to ournewsletter at
12weekEarforWriters.com.
Have you ever gotten halfwaythrough a writing project only
(00:22):
to get stuck and have no ideawhere to take things next?
Have you ever hit a point whereyou just didn't know what to do
with the huge pile of notes onyour desk?
Have you maybe even given up ona project because you just
couldn't fight your way throughall the uncertainty and
(00:43):
unknowns?
I think all writers deal withuncertainty.
Uncertainty poses challenges atalmost every step along the way.
Wouldn't it be nice if you had astrategy for turning uncertainty
from a challenge into asuperpower?
(01:05):
That's what my guest today isgoing to help you do.
Today I have a conversation withChristina Loracco, one of the
writing coaches at the 12-weekyear for writers.
I think you're going to love it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:31):
Hi, Trevor.
Thank you.
I'm happy to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
All right.
Before we get started, sincethis is uh your first time on
the podcast, why don't you justintroduce yourself and say a
little bit about your backgroundso that everyone knows who the
heck I'm talking to today?
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Sure.
Yeah.
So I'm Christine Larocco.
Um I'm here really because I'vebeen working with Trevor to
develop the 12-week yearmasterclass and the other
materials associated with that.
Um I am a historian-turned bookcoach.
I am formally trained as ahistorian.
(02:07):
I got my PhD um going on about15 years ago, and thought I
would pursue a 10-year track jobor tried to pursue a 10-year
track job.
That didn't work out.
And then for the past 10 years,I've been editor-in-chief of a
peer-reviewed scholarly journal.
Um, however, over the course ofthose years, I've turned much
(02:30):
more to creative writing.
I'm not especially interested inpurely academic writing these
days.
Um, so I have published twobooks.
Um, the first of which is anarrative history of the women's
movement uh since World War II.
And the second of which, whichjust came out earlier this year,
is a hybrid memoir biographyabout a woman named Martha
(02:53):
Schofield, um, who was aPhiladelphia area Quaker
feminist, abolitionist in theyears before and after the turn
of the 20th century.
So that's that that was reallyfun because that let the
creative, the creative partscome out.
Um so yeah, I work with writersuh through the 12-week program.
(03:13):
I work with writersindependently.
Um, I especially love to helppeople, because I come from
academia, people who tend to getlost in the weeds of research,
um, figure out ways to stopspiraling and start writing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
Yep, been there, done that.
That sounds good.
Well, uh absolutely glad to haveyou with us and uh congrats on
the most recent book, of course.
Um, so today we are talkingabout um, I don't know, could I
call it a boogeyman uh of of thethe writing world?
And and that is uncertainty.
(03:52):
Um and you know, I I think mostof us will admit if we're pushed
that we never know exactly wherethings are gonna go once we
start writing.
It it kind of reminds me ofBilbo talking about stepping out
on the path.
Once you get outside your house,you never know where you're
gonna end up.
Um and so, you know, I you'reabout to run a workshop on this
(04:16):
topic uh because you have beenthinking a lot about the
problems that come withuncertainty and the challenges
that uncertainty presents and umand what can be done about it.
Uh, and so yeah, I'm reallylooking forward to this
conversation because I I myselfhave have you know been at a
fork many a time, and um, I needsome new tools to deal with
(04:37):
uncertainty myself.
So maybe we could just start bytalking a little bit, you know,
more concretely.
When we say uncertainty, or whenyou say it, you know, what are
some of the challengesspecifically that that you're
talking about when it comes touncertainty?
Was mid-novel and got to achapter that just would never
(04:59):
end, would never go the rightdirection, couldn't figure out
how to get out of this chapterto save her life, and and it
spent a long time just battlingthis one chapter.
I mean, it probably took as longto deal with this one chapter as
six or seven other chapters, andthere was a real panic period
(05:20):
where she just wasn't sure ifthis was gonna maybe sink the
entire project.
And so, um, you know, be beingstuck is not funny.
It's not like, oh, I just have alittle case of writer's block.
I mean, we're talking about thekind of uncertainty where you're
like, I don't know if I canfinish the story, the kind of a
thing.
And and I know, you know, froman academic standpoint that you
(05:40):
can get to a place if the datadoesn't look right all of a
sudden that you've been, youknow, chomping along, and then
you come to some test that youdo or another, or you come on a
case study and you're like, waita minute, that oh god, you know,
this is I don't I can't writethe thing I thought I was gonna
write.
I don't know if I have a paperanymore.
And so you're like, ah, youknow, and so you're you're
(06:03):
uncertain and certainly afraid,um, you know, all in one.
You might have all of thesethings even.
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
So these aren't small problems, I would say.
Right.
Well, and and you know, Trevor,one interesting thing, if I can
just piggyback on on what yousaid a moment ago, is that um
one of the the responses to thisuncertainty is is to to to try
to eliminate it, right?
Um, this happens a lot withnonfiction writers, I think,
(06:30):
which is the the group that I Iwork with primarily and um the
genre I write in, you try tocontrol everything, right?
You try to plan behind thescenes what you're going to do.
And then when you come to one ofthose forks in the road when it
doesn't seem like it's going towork, um, you don't know where
to go.
(06:50):
Your your brain hasn't beentrained to think that way, and
you don't have the tools tofigure out a way out of it.
So, so it's it's inevitable.
Um, I think maybe is is one ofthe keys.
Uncertainty is inevitable.
So we'd better have a way ofdealing with it and continuing
(07:12):
to move forward.
SPEAKER_01 (07:13):
Yeah, no, I guess that's right.
In some ways, you if you thinkof being a writer of any stripe,
it's you know, part of your partof your calling card is that
you're a problem solver becauseyou have, you know, not not just
planning, you know, in a perfectworld, those of us who are
plotters, um, you know, and Iinclude all academics more or
less in that, because there'sreally, I don't know a single
(07:34):
academic who you could call apantser.
Uh, that's not really howacademic writing works, but um,
or much nonfiction writing, Ithink.
Some of the more creativenonfiction, maybe, but but but
what we attempt to eliminateuncertainty from the get-go by
you know knowing exactly all theall the steps we plan to take
between A and Z.
Um and and yet it never works.
(07:56):
It like it's predictable thatit's not there's somewhere in
there you've you've notunderstood the future, and it's
gonna come and present aproblem, some uncertainty.
And then certainly, if you're apantser, if you're a person who
writes fiction and who doesn'twant to put too many parameters,
but you know, too many knownsbetween the beginning and the
end, you know, you may knowwhere you're starting and where
(08:17):
you're ending, but you want toleave the rest to discovery and
stuff.
Well, you've basically asked forthe uncertainty at that point,
and you're gonna get plenty ofit.
And um, you know, I think we'lltalk about this more later.
And I I think it's interestingthat in you know, in the ongoing
and enduring war betweenplotters and pancers, you know,
you have to give some somepluses or strengths to one team
(08:40):
and and some to the other.
And in this case, it's there'ssort of an interesting question.
You know, is this a case wherewhere pancers might have kind of
a built-in advantage becausethey have kind of embraced
uncertainty from the get-go?
Um, now I will say, having saidthat, um not just because you're
a pancer doesn't mean younecessarily deal with
(09:00):
uncertainty mid-work any betterthan someone else does.
Exactly.
Sometimes it's still brutal, butbut it's kind of an interesting
thought that in some ways, youknow, panthers have said, look,
that's fine.
I'm I'm happy to deal with theuncertainty because that's maybe
where some of the magic willhappen.
And so I think that's kind ofwhat your what your approach
that you've kind of come up withis more about, hey, don't look
at this as uh a problem, right?
(09:22):
Look at this as an opportunityin a sense.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
Well, yes and no.
Um, in a way, I I think I preachplotting for panters and
pantsing for plotters.
Um, because I think you'reright.
I think that that bothapproaches do have merit.
And I in my writing um and mywork with clients, I I tend to
use both.
(09:45):
So for pants, yes, they theyembrace uncertainty, they
embrace writing as discovery,um, surprises coming to them
while they're writing.
That's great.
But what happens when the fuelruns dry?
(10:06):
Um, I think one of the problemswith with pantsing is that
creativity loves constraints,right?
We think that we want all theroom in the world to explore
just completely free form.
Um, and I think that's whatpanthers do.
(10:26):
And sometimes that's great, butsometimes it's just it's not
going to stimulate you.
It's not going to spark you.
And then what do you do?
Um panters tend to be criticalof plotters because they say
that that plotting, you know,lacks creativity.
(10:48):
Um, but I think my argumentwould be that embracing some of
this structure that we'll we'llget to a little later, um, can
actually help you be morecreative.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's an interestingthought.
And I and I have to say I dosometimes wonder if the
distinction is overblown becauseI think so.
I think to be fair, most peopledo a little of both.
And a lot of cancers um, I thinkare just people who don't write
down the stuff that's in theirhead that would look a lot like
plotting if they were toactually say it out loud and
write it on a piece of paper.
(11:21):
So that's a good that's a goodpoint.
All right.
So so um you talked about sortof some of the challenges that
people run into that we can kindof put under this big umbrella
of uncertainty.
And and the problem is that veryoften when people hit one of
these problems, they get theyget stuck for a while.
(11:44):
And so to talk a little bitabout the the sort of the the um
maladaptive uh responses that wesee when when people hit this
kind of uncertainty.
SPEAKER_00 (11:55):
Right.
So I see a lot of writers whenwhen they're stuck, when they
don't know where to go next, Isee them turn to surface level
work on their manuscript,reading the chapters over and
over again, fixing grammar,changing word choice, maybe
(12:15):
tweaking a sentence here orthere.
Um, but they're not they're notreally entering the mess in the
way they have to.
I always in in my own writing, Ialways think of, okay, I'm
making a mess and then I'mcleaning it up, and then I'm
making another mess and I'mcleaning it up.
Um is is is just sort of how Ithink about my process.
(12:39):
And and you have to get inthere, right?
You have to get dirty um to tofigure things out.
So staying on the surface is isdefinitely one way that people
respond.
Um if you are an academic writeror someone otherwise using
research, well, you're justgoing to go and read another
(12:59):
book.
Um, read another article, takemore notes, wait until you know
more, and then you'll be readyto write is the theory.
But there's always another book,there's always another article,
there will always be more notes.
So if you're waiting until youknow everything, you're never
going to write.
And you're never going to figureout what your argument is, what
(13:24):
you really believe about atopic, until you write.
SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
Um these are both avoidant strategies.
Kind of at the at the extremeend of that is is just putting
down the manuscript, is just notworking on it, chucking it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Um, and and I think that, you know, for new writers,
um, I think that's a specialdanger because I think if you
haven't seen the ball go all theway from one side of the field
to the other a few times, it canbe easy to say, oh, this must be
one that isn't gonna work.
You know, this this problemprobably can't be resolved.
(14:02):
I probably didn't do it right.
Let me put it down.
Um, but I think that in mostcases that's that would be a
mistake.
Like you you can work throughalmost any issue you've created,
you can unmess the mess.
You just need the right sort ofmindset and the right tools to
do it.
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
Because I mean, the worst case scenario is that
you're going to write somethingthat you either cut from a draft
or you know, you write somethingthat doesn't get published, and
then you've learned a ton fromfrom that process.
So it's I I really believe it'snever it's never wasted.
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
Yeah, no, absolutely right.
Absolutely right.
I I'm a big believer in that nowords that you wrote are ever
really wasted.
So I'm with you on there.
All right.
So so tell me a little bit abouthow you you sort of became aware
of this sort of challenge andand what your strategy for for
coping with it has emerged into.
SPEAKER_00 (14:58):
Yeah.
So it kind of comes from twoopposite ends of the planning
process, um, the writingprocess.
And I think has to do with thefact that I do have backgrounds
in both creative writing andacademic writing.
I think I think that's what sortof led me to realize this
(15:20):
problem and then to develop somesolutions.
So um the first half really cameto my realization uh during
COVID.
I had in the past when I wasstuck, when I didn't know where
I was going next, I would relyon completely unstructured free
(15:42):
writing.
Um, you know, the the morningpages, write for 15 minutes,
whatever comes into your mind,um, just clear your head of all
of your thoughts.
And that had worked really wellfor a while.
Um, it really helps me on anumber of essays when I I had
(16:03):
reached a point where I didn'tknow what to say or what it was
supposed to be, where I wassupposed to go next.
Um but I think what happenedduring COVID is that there was
so little going into my brain.
There was so little stimulationthat it was really hard to to
produce anything for anything tocome out.
(16:28):
So I found what I needed at thatpoint was was something more
structured.
Um, and that's when I reallystarted to develop the idea of
structured free writing, um,with thanks to Ann Janser for a
lot of the work she's done inthis area.
So the other side of it comes,as I said, from not only being
(16:52):
an academic, but being anacademic editor for a decade.
Um academic writing can easilyfall into a lot of different
traps.
Um, one of them that we'vealluded to already is especially
if you're early in your career,um you're going to tend to
(17:18):
foreground the literature,foreground what other people,
other experts have said, and notemphasize your own contribution
because you're afraid of whatyour committee is going to say,
because you're afraid you'veleft someone out.
Um, the other thing I find isthat academics, myself included,
(17:42):
um, their writing tends to fallinto what I call the going from
document to document problem, bywhich I mean, okay, so we have
our notes in front of us.
We have all of these quotes thatwe've that we've written down.
And we tend to follow along withour notes as we're writing.
(18:04):
So on June 11th, she said this.
On June 12th, she wrote this ina letter.
On June 13th, she said this.
And that's not the most engagingpage.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
I I call that the writing a book report.
That's what I'm saying.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or just you know, sharing.
Do some analysis.
SPEAKER_00 (18:27):
Right, exactly.
Where's the so what?
And and where are you?
Where is where is the author'sguiding hand?
Um, so I think it can be reallyhelpful to those writers to
embrace a bit less structure andactually put the notes away and
work out the ideas on paper, um,just from what's in their own
(18:50):
heads.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
Yeah, yeah, cool, very cool.
All right.
So you you're sort of at thecrossroads of of kind of
creative writing and academicwriting, and you kind of realize
that uncertainty is somethingthat you know is gonna befall
all of us.
So, in your workshops, whenyou're helping people out with
(19:11):
this, what are some of thestrategies that you're gonna
unfurl for people to help themwork through this?
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Sure.
So um I think there's a way thatwe can take uncertainty and we
can actually use it to unveilwhat our next steps are.
So one of the things I oftenhave writers do is divide a
piece of paper into two columns.
Um, this works for fiction ornonfiction.
(19:40):
On one side, they write, here'severything I know about my
project, and they list thoseout.
On the other side, here'severything I don't know about my
project.
Some writers may find that it'smore productive for them to say,
here's what my character doesn'tknow about what's going on in
the story.
But I think either, either couldbe productive.
(20:01):
That's just a personal referenceor you know, experiment with
what works better.
Um once you've assembled thelist of here's what I don't
know, you're going to have alist of things you need to
figure out, right?
Of questions you need to answer.
(20:22):
You might need to break themdown more into concrete steps,
but what you don't know is it'sit's it's the beginning.
It's really it's the beginning.
Um, it shows you where to gorather than you know being a
form of being lost.
So we take those unknowns, weturn them into questions, and
(20:46):
then through short focused, lowpressure experiments, we try to
figure them out.
And we can certainly talk moreabout what that looks like.
SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
Yeah.
No, that's very interesting.
I, you know, um not toover-academicize it, but but one
of the things that I think, youknow, as I hear you outlining
this awesome strategy, uh, youknow, I think one of the things
that it's easy when you getstuck.
(21:20):
And I because I've heard manypeople, they don't know what's
wrong, right?
I don't know what I don't like,I don't know why it's not
working.
SPEAKER_00 (21:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
The unknown unknowns.
Right.
There's a bunch of unknownunknowns.
I'm I'm upset.
I'm it people start to getpanicky sometimes because they
just upset about what's it'snot, I don't know where to go.
What's this person supposed todo now, whatever it might be.
And and I think that thatemotion is inchoate, it doesn't
have a shape, and you cannotanswer an incohate fear.
(21:53):
It's just you can't try you canyou could try to avoid it, you
could try to put a shit in abox, but you it doesn't have an
answer because it's not aquestion, right?
And what you've done is yousaid, hey, look, let's let's
just sit down and and verycalmly without worrying about
what uh what the answers toanything are, let's just figure
out what the questions are.
And so, yeah, start with whatyou know, and as you're listing
(22:15):
that, it kind of becomes alittle bit more clear what are
the things you don't know.
And then the don't know's arelike little headlights that can
help you peer into right, or orin in you know, our world from I
can they become little miniresearch questions that you
actually can go answer.
Because one of the things Ithink you know that I find very
common, and this is acrossgenres of writing, is is that
(22:39):
analysis paralysis where peoplethink reading another book or or
do doing a whole bunch more ofthis or that is gonna it that
doesn't help because they don'tthey're not I had a friend when
when I was just starting mydissertation, he was a little
bit ahead of me.
He had finished his exams sixmonths or something before, and
she was a little ahead of me.
He said, Let me give you onepiece of advice that I've just
(23:00):
been through.
He said, When you go start toread stuff, he says, have your
research question in mind first,otherwise, you'll find
everything and nothing.
And what a great phrase and whatwonderful advice that was,
because it's just absolutelytrue.
Now I fell into that trap anywaybecause I I had a question that
wasn't one is not enoughquestions typically.
(23:21):
So having a list of questions tohelp guide your thinking, you're
just gonna get a lot moretraction on each of those
questions and on your fear aboutit isn't working.
It isn't working, it's not aquestion you can answer, right?
But what specifically I don'tknow, like those are things you
could answer.
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
Right, right.
That's that's such a good pointand so well said, Trevor, in in
a way that I hadn't reallythought about that, you know,
yes, for a lot of kinds ofwriting, you do need to do
research, not just academic ornonfiction writing, but
historical fiction, right?
You need to learn about the era.
There are a lot of writingprojects where you have to learn
(24:00):
things.
Um, but it can be very easy toengage in that productive
procrastination of just learningand learning and learning.
Um, and then the other thing wesaid that was so interesting is
is about this sort of inchoatenot knowing.
(24:21):
I think that's that's reallyimportant for um well, I think
that's what I ran into when freewriting just kind of stopped
working.
And I think that's part of whyI'm so invested in using a
little bit of structure isbecause um when something is
(24:45):
inchoate, it's abstract.
Yeah, you can't touch it.
Yes, exactly.
But if you have an actualconcrete question, if you have
an actual concrete containerthat you're going to try to
answer it inside, um it becomesconcrete, it becomes something
you can do something about.
(25:06):
And sometimes that's all ittakes, right?
Is knowing that you have a wayof dealing with something.
And and you know, this willalways be there.
You can always pull it out andapply it to whatever problem
you're working on.
And straightforward.
Yeah, you have a tool for that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
It's like having a hammer.
I don't have to worry about anail that's sticking up by a I
have a hammer, I can deal withit.
Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
So I mean, you know, this is a it is a philosophy,
but it's also really, reallypractical.
It's about developing the toolsthat will be there for you to to
rely on.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:42):
Well, you know, what what I like about about what you
just said though, you know, ifyou think about it, it's
obviously a potential problemsolving strategy, you know,
listing what you know, what youdon't know.
But if you think of like if youthink about it from a more of a
proactive sense, right, it canbe a strategy for helping you
(26:04):
create in the first place, too.
Yeah.
Like saying, hey, look, I'm atthe beginning of a chapter.
I get to figure out like, here'sa bunch of stuff I don't know
yet, but not in a bad waybecause I'm worried, but it
because I'm excited.
Like I get to go design thischapter now.
What do I want to do next?
Well, okay, what do I know?
What do I not know about thescene I want to write next?
Or right?
And or about the case study I'mabout to do next.
(26:25):
What would be exciting?
What would be a thrill to like,okay, write a bunch of things
down and then go use thatprocedure props to see which
direction is going to be theright as opposed to only when
you're stuck, it could also beso this.
I think this embracing, youknow, uncertainty, it's it's a
it's a bigger philosophy thanthan yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:44):
And I think um what you've just said is is part of
why it maps so well onto the12-week year.
Um, because you know, we knowthat you don't write an entire
book in 12 weeks.
You don't try to write an entirebook in in 12 weeks.
Um, so if your if your goal fora certain 12-week period is to
(27:05):
write chapter three, um, thenthis is a great technique to
integrate into the planning,right?
So it really is planning andit's it's also the writing craft
itself.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Right on, right on.
All right.
So two columns, what I know,what I don't know.
I love that strategy.
What else you got for people?
SPEAKER_00 (27:23):
Sure.
Um, so that's a preliminary toolthat um I suggest pretty
universally um for people whoare are facing this challenge.
Um what you do then is you takea look at the different
containers that are out therethat you can that you can put
(27:46):
your writing inside.
Um and at the workshop, um, I'mgoing to, there will be a
workbook, I should say.
I know that's I know that'sexciting.
Um there will be a whole masterlist of of different methods for
for structuring your writingtime.
Um, but you're going to pick acontainer.
(28:06):
Maybe it is a timed free write.
I I do that all the time, but atime free write with a guiding
question.
What am I worried that I willnever figure out about this
chapter?
What am I really trying to sayin this chapter?
Something to focus yourthinking.
Um, you might try writing oneparagraph three ways, um,
(28:30):
perhaps for three differentaudiences, a child, your mother,
an esteemed colleague, and seewhat happens.
Um perhaps you write with aconstraint where you write only
in questions.
Um, or you write, this isactually one of my favorites.
Um, you write avoiding is, was,or ing words.
(28:55):
I as an editor, I just I hatethose, those being verbs.
They're like the name of myexistence.
So that's good anyway.
Get that stuff out of here.
Yeah.
Yeah, a little uh little copyediting advice there.
Um so that can that can focusyour energy and your attention.
You might write a dialogue umbetween two characters.
(29:18):
Um, if you're a fiction writer,between yourself and another
thinker or a whole series ofthinkers in which you're trying
to articulate your argument tothem, and they in turn
articulate their argument toyou.
It could be something as simpleas a list of possible titles, of
(29:41):
arguments, of main points.
Um it could be visual, you know.
Uh one uh one fun strategy hereis to divide a piece of paper
into three columns and sketch athree panel comic that uh is
intended to Embody one of yourmain points.
(30:03):
So if you're a visual thinker,that can be a really fun way to
do it.
So the strategies are nearlyinfinite, really.
And they're a lot of fun.
And what you want to do is pickthe one that you think is going
to best serve you where you areat that given moment, where you
(30:25):
have something that you're stuckwith.
You know, if you're if you'restruggling to define, say, what
your contribution is, well, thenI think a dialogue would be,
would be great, where you dohave to, in writing, say to
someone and have them respond toyou what you're trying to uh
what you're trying to say.
(30:46):
Um if you are trying to figureout, let's see.
I don't have another exampleright off the top of my head.
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
Well that was a lot of examples.
I, you know, it so it it's I I'mjust as you're as you're
talking, I'm thinking about allthe the ways in which this
approach generally is is sohelpful.
And it feels to me like youknow, when you're stuck, you're
at an uncertain point that'sgenerating some kind of anxiety
(31:23):
or or fear or whatever.
That what you need is sort of amulti, you know, pronged uh
approach, which which this is,which is you you need sometimes
to take that big scary thing andbreak it into small chunks.
Yeah.
You know, you need to dosomething that's not scary, you
(31:45):
need to do something that putsyour brain into a new pathway
that you're not in a rut thatyou were stuck in.
If you're stuck, it's usuallybecause you keep banging on one
direction, one strategy, andthat's not working.
So you need to redirect yourbrain and so uh and and get
moving, you know.
I mean, that's so so I think ifyou if you sort of broad brush,
all the things you've justtalked about are ways to you
(32:08):
know take a small step withoutfear that allows your brain to
be creative again, to readdressthe the whatever the issue is,
and that's just like seems likea very good, you know, recipe.
SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's another reason thatit works so well for the 12-week
year, because we're all aboutbreaking down the big scary
things into doable steps thatthat feel less overwhelming.
Absolutely, absolutely, yeah,yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:38):
Not trying to focus on just the you know, a book,
that's a crazy or the fear, yougotta break it down.
So, all right, what am I reallytalking about here?
What are those what are thespecific things I need to figure
out how to do?
SPEAKER_00 (32:51):
Yeah, in this section or in this scene, not in
not even in this chapter, maybethat might even be too big.
SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
Right, right.
So so those are some of thestrategies.
Um if you are just sort ofgeneral advice to to someone
who's combining the uncertaintysort of strategy with 12-week
year, how how would you sort ofphrase that?
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
So sure.
So I I think it helps really inin two ways.
When you're planning a project,um it gives you another way of
creating that inventory of tasksthat you need to complete uh
toward a goal, right?
If you're asking yourselfquestions about what you don't
(33:39):
know, you can turn those intosteps.
Um but when it comes to thewriting sessions themselves, I
think it works there as well.
And and I think that that's whythis is able to bypass the
plotter versus pancer dichotomy,because you can plan to on a
(34:05):
certain day say, okay, I'm goingto experiment with this.
Um, and then when that daycomes, set a timer if you want
and and go for it, right?
So you can you can plan to writewith uncertainty.
You can you can plan to dealwith it.
(34:27):
And and I think that thosethings can coexist perfectly
fine.
SPEAKER_01 (34:32):
Yeah, and and you know, more to the point, I
think, you know, I think one ofthe things that I'm I'm learning
as we talk about this is that,you know, whichever side of the
aisle you find yourself leaningto just from your own
personality standpoint, eitherway, you need to number one,
embrace uncertainty because it'sa reality that you're gonna deal
(34:55):
with.
It's funny because when I coachuh business book writing
clients, I mean, this is thelike you think of that maybe as
like the one of the leastcreative acts possible, right?
But if that's just not true atall.
Even though they're maybewriting about a system they've
been training people on foryears, they make an outline,
(35:15):
because I make them and make anoutline, and then they start
writing.
And I say, but here's what'sgonna happen.
You have this beautiful outline,even down to the chapter
section.
But what's gonna happen when youstart writing is it's gonna get
messy on you.
Yep, yep.
And I tell them, don't worryabout that, just keep writing,
we'll see what happens.
Because sometimes in that mess,something genius that you didn't
outline for originally appearsand uh makes us redo the
(35:39):
outline.
And so, so even plotters need toembrace that uncertainty and
discovery are going to happen,but for them, the key is don't
be afraid of that, but use it,be ready to use it.
And for panthers, panthersalready embrace uncertainty on
one level, but I think one ofthe things that can be a problem
for panthers is that when theydo get stuck, when that
(36:02):
discovery engine isn't somehowturning into words anymore.
I think sometimes panthers haveunderinvested in tools to
provide structure in a pinch.
You know, if your car is stuckand you need to stick something
under the tire to get it movingoff the ice or out of the hole,
you know, like pancers need sometools too to keep the discovery
(36:23):
moving forward.
And and I think this, you know,your you're just that first
example or exercise of ofbreaking your page into two.
Like to me, even just thatsimple tool is a way for a
pantser to say, look, my my mymy brain is no longer
automatically the next thing Ineed to know.
Now I need to make it a littlebit more rigorous.
(36:44):
I need to go back and think itthrough.
And so it's not saying you'replotting even, you're just
trying to figure out what thenext thing that you want to
discover is, but you need aprocess.
Yes, yes, I feel exactly this isreally a tool that both sides
can use without thinking thatthey're giving in to the other.
It's just making their approachas as good as it can be.
SPEAKER_00 (37:04):
Yes, yes.
No, I think I think that'sthat's so that's so well said
because you know it's it's it'sa frame, it's it's a playground,
it's the place in which you'regoing to play and learn and
discover.
It's it's not a prison, but noris this just nor is it just this
(37:25):
sort of abstract, like, I'lljust go where where the muse
takes me, because the musedoesn't really show up that
frequently.
Um, but it's funny that in a wayplotters and panthers need the
same medicine.
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
Yeah, that's a funny thought.
unknown (37:42):
That's a funny thought.
SPEAKER_01 (37:43):
Well, hey, and as writing coaches, that's good if
we have we have one bottle togive people.
Exactly.
That's good.
Fantastic.
All right.
Well, if they want to learnmore, they're gonna have to come
to the workshop.
Yes, I hope they will.
October 22nd, 20th, October20th, October 20th.
And all the information will bein the show notes so people can
(38:06):
uh find that easily.
Christina, thank you for theconversation today.
Thank you, Trevor.
SPEAKER_02 (38:11):
This is fun.
SPEAKER_01 (38:12):
Yeah, we'll we'll be back again soon, uh, I'm sure.
All right, take care.
SPEAKER_00 (38:17):
Bye.
Welcome to the Twelve Week Ear for Writers
Podcast.
I'm Trevor Thrall, author of theTwelve Week Year for Writers.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please submit a review wherever
you get your podcasts.
And for updates on the podcastand other writing resources,
please subscribe to ournewsletter at
12weekEarforWriters.com.
Have you ever gotten halfwaythrough a writing project only
(00:22):
to get stuck and have no ideawhere to take things next?
Have you ever hit a point whereyou just didn't know what to do
with the huge pile of notes onyour desk?
Have you maybe even given up ona project because you just
couldn't fight your way throughall the uncertainty and
(00:43):
unknowns?
I think all writers deal withuncertainty.
Uncertainty poses challenges atalmost every step along the way.
Wouldn't it be nice if you had astrategy for turning uncertainty
from a challenge into asuperpower?
(01:05):
That's what my guest today isgoing to help you do.
Today I have a conversation withChristina Loracco, one of the
writing coaches at the 12-weekyear for writers.
I think you're going to love it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:31):
Hi, Trevor.
Thank you.
I'm happy to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
All right.
Before we get started, sincethis is uh your first time on
the podcast, why don't you justintroduce yourself and say a
little bit about your backgroundso that everyone knows who the
heck I'm talking to today?
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Sure.
Yeah.
So I'm Christine Larocco.
Um I'm here really because I'vebeen working with Trevor to
develop the 12-week yearmasterclass and the other
materials associated with that.
Um I am a historian-turned bookcoach.
I am formally trained as ahistorian.
(02:07):
I got my PhD um going on about15 years ago, and thought I
would pursue a 10-year track jobor tried to pursue a 10-year
track job.
That didn't work out.
And then for the past 10 years,I've been editor-in-chief of a
peer-reviewed scholarly journal.
Um, however, over the course ofthose years, I've turned much
(02:30):
more to creative writing.
I'm not especially interested inpurely academic writing these
days.
Um, so I have published twobooks.
Um, the first of which is anarrative history of the women's
movement uh since World War II.
And the second of which, whichjust came out earlier this year,
is a hybrid memoir biographyabout a woman named Martha
(02:53):
Schofield, um, who was aPhiladelphia area Quaker
feminist, abolitionist in theyears before and after the turn
of the 20th century.
So that's that that was reallyfun because that let the
creative, the creative partscome out.
Um so yeah, I work with writersuh through the 12-week program.
(03:13):
I work with writersindependently.
Um, I especially love to helppeople, because I come from
academia, people who tend to getlost in the weeds of research,
um, figure out ways to stopspiraling and start writing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
Yep, been there, done that.
That sounds good.
Well, uh absolutely glad to haveyou with us and uh congrats on
the most recent book, of course.
Um, so today we are talkingabout um, I don't know, could I
call it a boogeyman uh of of thethe writing world?
And and that is uncertainty.
(03:52):
Um and you know, I I think mostof us will admit if we're pushed
that we never know exactly wherethings are gonna go once we
start writing.
It it kind of reminds me ofBilbo talking about stepping out
on the path.
Once you get outside your house,you never know where you're
gonna end up.
Um and so, you know, I you'reabout to run a workshop on this
(04:16):
topic uh because you have beenthinking a lot about the
problems that come withuncertainty and the challenges
that uncertainty presents and umand what can be done about it.
Uh, and so yeah, I'm reallylooking forward to this
conversation because I I myselfhave have you know been at a
fork many a time, and um, I needsome new tools to deal with
(04:37):
uncertainty myself.
So maybe we could just start bytalking a little bit, you know,
more concretely.
When we say uncertainty, or whenyou say it, you know, what are
some of the challengesspecifically that that you're
talking about when it comes touncertainty?
Was mid-novel and got to achapter that just would never
(04:59):
end, would never go the rightdirection, couldn't figure out
how to get out of this chapterto save her life, and and it
spent a long time just battlingthis one chapter.
I mean, it probably took as longto deal with this one chapter as
six or seven other chapters, andthere was a real panic period
(05:20):
where she just wasn't sure ifthis was gonna maybe sink the
entire project.
And so, um, you know, be beingstuck is not funny.
It's not like, oh, I just have alittle case of writer's block.
I mean, we're talking about thekind of uncertainty where you're
like, I don't know if I canfinish the story, the kind of a
thing.
And and I know, you know, froman academic standpoint that you
(05:40):
can get to a place if the datadoesn't look right all of a
sudden that you've been, youknow, chomping along, and then
you come to some test that youdo or another, or you come on a
case study and you're like, waita minute, that oh god, you know,
this is I don't I can't writethe thing I thought I was gonna
write.
I don't know if I have a paperanymore.
And so you're like, ah, youknow, and so you're you're
(06:03):
uncertain and certainly afraid,um, you know, all in one.
You might have all of thesethings even.
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
So these aren't small problems, I would say.
Right.
Well, and and you know, Trevor,one interesting thing, if I can
just piggyback on on what yousaid a moment ago, is that um
one of the the responses to thisuncertainty is is to to to try
to eliminate it, right?
Um, this happens a lot withnonfiction writers, I think,
(06:30):
which is the the group that I Iwork with primarily and um the
genre I write in, you try tocontrol everything, right?
You try to plan behind thescenes what you're going to do.
And then when you come to one ofthose forks in the road when it
doesn't seem like it's going towork, um, you don't know where
to go.
(06:50):
Your your brain hasn't beentrained to think that way, and
you don't have the tools tofigure out a way out of it.
So, so it's it's inevitable.
Um, I think maybe is is one ofthe keys.
Uncertainty is inevitable.
So we'd better have a way ofdealing with it and continuing
(07:12):
to move forward.
SPEAKER_01 (07:13):
Yeah, no, I guess that's right.
In some ways, you if you thinkof being a writer of any stripe,
it's you know, part of your partof your calling card is that
you're a problem solver becauseyou have, you know, not not just
planning, you know, in a perfectworld, those of us who are
plotters, um, you know, and Iinclude all academics more or
less in that, because there'sreally, I don't know a single
(07:34):
academic who you could call apantser.
Uh, that's not really howacademic writing works, but um,
or much nonfiction writing, Ithink.
Some of the more creativenonfiction, maybe, but but but
what we attempt to eliminateuncertainty from the get-go by
you know knowing exactly all theall the steps we plan to take
between A and Z.
Um and and yet it never works.
(07:56):
It like it's predictable thatit's not there's somewhere in
there you've you've notunderstood the future, and it's
gonna come and present aproblem, some uncertainty.
And then certainly, if you're apantser, if you're a person who
writes fiction and who doesn'twant to put too many parameters,
but you know, too many knownsbetween the beginning and the
end, you know, you may knowwhere you're starting and where
(08:17):
you're ending, but you want toleave the rest to discovery and
stuff.
Well, you've basically asked forthe uncertainty at that point,
and you're gonna get plenty ofit.
And um, you know, I think we'lltalk about this more later.
And I I think it's interestingthat in you know, in the ongoing
and enduring war betweenplotters and pancers, you know,
you have to give some somepluses or strengths to one team
(08:40):
and and some to the other.
And in this case, it's there'ssort of an interesting question.
You know, is this a case wherewhere pancers might have kind of
a built-in advantage becausethey have kind of embraced
uncertainty from the get-go?
Um, now I will say, having saidthat, um not just because you're
a pancer doesn't mean younecessarily deal with
(09:00):
uncertainty mid-work any betterthan someone else does.
Exactly.
Sometimes it's still brutal, butbut it's kind of an interesting
thought that in some ways, youknow, panthers have said, look,
that's fine.
I'm I'm happy to deal with theuncertainty because that's maybe
where some of the magic willhappen.
And so I think that's kind ofwhat your what your approach
that you've kind of come up withis more about, hey, don't look
at this as uh a problem, right?
(09:22):
Look at this as an opportunityin a sense.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
Well, yes and no.
Um, in a way, I I think I preachplotting for panters and
pantsing for plotters.
Um, because I think you'reright.
I think that that bothapproaches do have merit.
And I in my writing um and mywork with clients, I I tend to
use both.
(09:45):
So for pants, yes, they theyembrace uncertainty, they
embrace writing as discovery,um, surprises coming to them
while they're writing.
That's great.
But what happens when the fuelruns dry?
(10:06):
Um, I think one of the problemswith with pantsing is that
creativity loves constraints,right?
We think that we want all theroom in the world to explore
just completely free form.
Um, and I think that's whatpanthers do.
(10:26):
And sometimes that's great, butsometimes it's just it's not
going to stimulate you.
It's not going to spark you.
And then what do you do?
Um panters tend to be criticalof plotters because they say
that that plotting, you know,lacks creativity.
(10:48):
Um, but I think my argumentwould be that embracing some of
this structure that we'll we'llget to a little later, um, can
actually help you be morecreative.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's an interestingthought.
And I and I have to say I dosometimes wonder if the
distinction is overblown becauseI think so.
I think to be fair, most peopledo a little of both.
And a lot of cancers um, I thinkare just people who don't write
down the stuff that's in theirhead that would look a lot like
plotting if they were toactually say it out loud and
write it on a piece of paper.
(11:21):
So that's a good that's a goodpoint.
All right.
So so um you talked about sortof some of the challenges that
people run into that we can kindof put under this big umbrella
of uncertainty.
And and the problem is that veryoften when people hit one of
these problems, they get theyget stuck for a while.
(11:44):
And so to talk a little bitabout the the sort of the the um
maladaptive uh responses that wesee when when people hit this
kind of uncertainty.
SPEAKER_00 (11:55):
Right.
So I see a lot of writers whenwhen they're stuck, when they
don't know where to go next, Isee them turn to surface level
work on their manuscript,reading the chapters over and
over again, fixing grammar,changing word choice, maybe
(12:15):
tweaking a sentence here orthere.
Um, but they're not they're notreally entering the mess in the
way they have to.
I always in in my own writing, Ialways think of, okay, I'm
making a mess and then I'mcleaning it up, and then I'm
making another mess and I'mcleaning it up.
Um is is is just sort of how Ithink about my process.
(12:39):
And and you have to get inthere, right?
You have to get dirty um to tofigure things out.
So staying on the surface is isdefinitely one way that people
respond.
Um if you are an academic writeror someone otherwise using
research, well, you're justgoing to go and read another
(12:59):
book.
Um, read another article, takemore notes, wait until you know
more, and then you'll be readyto write is the theory.
But there's always another book,there's always another article,
there will always be more notes.
So if you're waiting until youknow everything, you're never
going to write.
And you're never going to figureout what your argument is, what
(13:24):
you really believe about atopic, until you write.
SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
Um these are both avoidant strategies.
Kind of at the at the extremeend of that is is just putting
down the manuscript, is just notworking on it, chucking it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Um, and and I think that, you know, for new writers,
um, I think that's a specialdanger because I think if you
haven't seen the ball go all theway from one side of the field
to the other a few times, it canbe easy to say, oh, this must be
one that isn't gonna work.
You know, this this problemprobably can't be resolved.
(14:02):
I probably didn't do it right.
Let me put it down.
Um, but I think that in mostcases that's that would be a
mistake.
Like you you can work throughalmost any issue you've created,
you can unmess the mess.
You just need the right sort ofmindset and the right tools to
do it.
Right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
Because I mean, the worst case scenario is that
you're going to write somethingthat you either cut from a draft
or you know, you write somethingthat doesn't get published, and
then you've learned a ton fromfrom that process.
So it's I I really believe it'snever it's never wasted.
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
Yeah, no, absolutely right.
Absolutely right.
I I'm a big believer in that nowords that you wrote are ever
really wasted.
So I'm with you on there.
All right.
So so tell me a little bit abouthow you you sort of became aware
of this sort of challenge andand what your strategy for for
coping with it has emerged into.
SPEAKER_00 (14:58):
Yeah.
So it kind of comes from twoopposite ends of the planning
process, um, the writingprocess.
And I think has to do with thefact that I do have backgrounds
in both creative writing andacademic writing.
I think I think that's what sortof led me to realize this
(15:20):
problem and then to develop somesolutions.
So um the first half really cameto my realization uh during
COVID.
I had in the past when I wasstuck, when I didn't know where
I was going next, I would relyon completely unstructured free
(15:42):
writing.
Um, you know, the the morningpages, write for 15 minutes,
whatever comes into your mind,um, just clear your head of all
of your thoughts.
And that had worked really wellfor a while.
Um, it really helps me on anumber of essays when I I had
(16:03):
reached a point where I didn'tknow what to say or what it was
supposed to be, where I wassupposed to go next.
Um but I think what happenedduring COVID is that there was
so little going into my brain.
There was so little stimulationthat it was really hard to to
produce anything for anything tocome out.
(16:28):
So I found what I needed at thatpoint was was something more
structured.
Um, and that's when I reallystarted to develop the idea of
structured free writing, um,with thanks to Ann Janser for a
lot of the work she's done inthis area.
So the other side of it comes,as I said, from not only being
(16:52):
an academic, but being anacademic editor for a decade.
Um academic writing can easilyfall into a lot of different
traps.
Um, one of them that we'vealluded to already is especially
if you're early in your career,um you're going to tend to
(17:18):
foreground the literature,foreground what other people,
other experts have said, and notemphasize your own contribution
because you're afraid of whatyour committee is going to say,
because you're afraid you'veleft someone out.
Um, the other thing I find isthat academics, myself included,
(17:42):
um, their writing tends to fallinto what I call the going from
document to document problem, bywhich I mean, okay, so we have
our notes in front of us.
We have all of these quotes thatwe've that we've written down.
And we tend to follow along withour notes as we're writing.
(18:04):
So on June 11th, she said this.
On June 12th, she wrote this ina letter.
On June 13th, she said this.
And that's not the most engagingpage.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
I I call that the writing a book report.
That's what I'm saying.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or just you know, sharing.
Do some analysis.
SPEAKER_00 (18:27):
Right, exactly.
Where's the so what?
And and where are you?
Where is where is the author'sguiding hand?
Um, so I think it can be reallyhelpful to those writers to
embrace a bit less structure andactually put the notes away and
work out the ideas on paper, um,just from what's in their own
(18:50):
heads.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
Yeah, yeah, cool, very cool.
All right.
So you you're sort of at thecrossroads of of kind of
creative writing and academicwriting, and you kind of realize
that uncertainty is somethingthat you know is gonna befall
all of us.
So, in your workshops, whenyou're helping people out with
(19:11):
this, what are some of thestrategies that you're gonna
unfurl for people to help themwork through this?
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Sure.
So um I think there's a way thatwe can take uncertainty and we
can actually use it to unveilwhat our next steps are.
So one of the things I oftenhave writers do is divide a
piece of paper into two columns.
Um, this works for fiction ornonfiction.
(19:40):
On one side, they write, here'severything I know about my
project, and they list thoseout.
On the other side, here'severything I don't know about my
project.
Some writers may find that it'smore productive for them to say,
here's what my character doesn'tknow about what's going on in
the story.
But I think either, either couldbe productive.
(20:01):
That's just a personal referenceor you know, experiment with
what works better.
Um once you've assembled thelist of here's what I don't
know, you're going to have alist of things you need to
figure out, right?
Of questions you need to answer.
(20:22):
You might need to break themdown more into concrete steps,
but what you don't know is it'sit's it's the beginning.
It's really it's the beginning.
Um, it shows you where to gorather than you know being a
form of being lost.
So we take those unknowns, weturn them into questions, and
(20:46):
then through short focused, lowpressure experiments, we try to
figure them out.
And we can certainly talk moreabout what that looks like.
SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
Yeah.
No, that's very interesting.
I, you know, um not toover-academicize it, but but one
of the things that I think, youknow, as I hear you outlining
this awesome strategy, uh, youknow, I think one of the things
that it's easy when you getstuck.
(21:20):
And I because I've heard manypeople, they don't know what's
wrong, right?
I don't know what I don't like,I don't know why it's not
working.
SPEAKER_00 (21:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
The unknown unknowns.
Right.
There's a bunch of unknownunknowns.
I'm I'm upset.
I'm it people start to getpanicky sometimes because they
just upset about what's it'snot, I don't know where to go.
What's this person supposed todo now, whatever it might be.
And and I think that thatemotion is inchoate, it doesn't
have a shape, and you cannotanswer an incohate fear.
(21:53):
It's just you can't try you canyou could try to avoid it, you
could try to put a shit in abox, but you it doesn't have an
answer because it's not aquestion, right?
And what you've done is yousaid, hey, look, let's let's
just sit down and and verycalmly without worrying about
what uh what the answers toanything are, let's just figure
out what the questions are.
And so, yeah, start with whatyou know, and as you're listing
(22:15):
that, it kind of becomes alittle bit more clear what are
the things you don't know.
And then the don't know's arelike little headlights that can
help you peer into right, or orin in you know, our world from I
can they become little miniresearch questions that you
actually can go answer.
Because one of the things Ithink you know that I find very
common, and this is acrossgenres of writing, is is that
(22:39):
analysis paralysis where peoplethink reading another book or or
do doing a whole bunch more ofthis or that is gonna it that
doesn't help because they don'tthey're not I had a friend when
when I was just starting mydissertation, he was a little
bit ahead of me.
He had finished his exams sixmonths or something before, and
she was a little ahead of me.
He said, Let me give you onepiece of advice that I've just
(23:00):
been through.
He said, When you go start toread stuff, he says, have your
research question in mind first,otherwise, you'll find
everything and nothing.
And what a great phrase and whatwonderful advice that was,
because it's just absolutelytrue.
Now I fell into that trap anywaybecause I I had a question that
wasn't one is not enoughquestions typically.
(23:21):
So having a list of questions tohelp guide your thinking, you're
just gonna get a lot moretraction on each of those
questions and on your fear aboutit isn't working.
It isn't working, it's not aquestion you can answer, right?
But what specifically I don'tknow, like those are things you
could answer.
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
Right, right.
That's that's such a good pointand so well said, Trevor, in in
a way that I hadn't reallythought about that, you know,
yes, for a lot of kinds ofwriting, you do need to do
research, not just academic ornonfiction writing, but
historical fiction, right?
You need to learn about the era.
There are a lot of writingprojects where you have to learn
(24:00):
things.
Um, but it can be very easy toengage in that productive
procrastination of just learningand learning and learning.
Um, and then the other thing wesaid that was so interesting is
is about this sort of inchoatenot knowing.
(24:21):
I think that's that's reallyimportant for um well, I think
that's what I ran into when freewriting just kind of stopped
working.
And I think that's part of whyI'm so invested in using a
little bit of structure isbecause um when something is
(24:45):
inchoate, it's abstract.
Yeah, you can't touch it.
Yes, exactly.
But if you have an actualconcrete question, if you have
an actual concrete containerthat you're going to try to
answer it inside, um it becomesconcrete, it becomes something
you can do something about.
(25:06):
And sometimes that's all ittakes, right?
Is knowing that you have a wayof dealing with something.
And and you know, this willalways be there.
You can always pull it out andapply it to whatever problem
you're working on.
And straightforward.
Yeah, you have a tool for that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
It's like having a hammer.
I don't have to worry about anail that's sticking up by a I
have a hammer, I can deal withit.
Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
So I mean, you know, this is a it is a philosophy,
but it's also really, reallypractical.
It's about developing the toolsthat will be there for you to to
rely on.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:42):
Well, you know, what what I like about about what you
just said though, you know, ifyou think about it, it's
obviously a potential problemsolving strategy, you know,
listing what you know, what youdon't know.
But if you think of like if youthink about it from a more of a
proactive sense, right, it canbe a strategy for helping you
(26:04):
create in the first place, too.
Yeah.
Like saying, hey, look, I'm atthe beginning of a chapter.
I get to figure out like, here'sa bunch of stuff I don't know
yet, but not in a bad waybecause I'm worried, but it
because I'm excited.
Like I get to go design thischapter now.
What do I want to do next?
Well, okay, what do I know?
What do I not know about thescene I want to write next?
Or right?
And or about the case study I'mabout to do next.
(26:25):
What would be exciting?
What would be a thrill to like,okay, write a bunch of things
down and then go use thatprocedure props to see which
direction is going to be theright as opposed to only when
you're stuck, it could also beso this.
I think this embracing, youknow, uncertainty, it's it's a
it's a bigger philosophy thanthan yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:44):
And I think um what you've just said is is part of
why it maps so well onto the12-week year.
Um, because you know, we knowthat you don't write an entire
book in 12 weeks.
You don't try to write an entirebook in in 12 weeks.
Um, so if your if your goal fora certain 12-week period is to
(27:05):
write chapter three, um, thenthis is a great technique to
integrate into the planning,right?
So it really is planning andit's it's also the writing craft
itself.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Right on, right on.
All right.
So two columns, what I know,what I don't know.
I love that strategy.
What else you got for people?
SPEAKER_00 (27:23):
Sure.
Um, so that's a preliminary toolthat um I suggest pretty
universally um for people whoare are facing this challenge.
Um what you do then is you takea look at the different
containers that are out therethat you can that you can put
(27:46):
your writing inside.
Um and at the workshop, um, I'mgoing to, there will be a
workbook, I should say.
I know that's I know that'sexciting.
Um there will be a whole masterlist of of different methods for
for structuring your writingtime.
Um, but you're going to pick acontainer.
(28:06):
Maybe it is a timed free write.
I I do that all the time, but atime free write with a guiding
question.
What am I worried that I willnever figure out about this
chapter?
What am I really trying to sayin this chapter?
Something to focus yourthinking.
Um, you might try writing oneparagraph three ways, um,
(28:30):
perhaps for three differentaudiences, a child, your mother,
an esteemed colleague, and seewhat happens.
Um perhaps you write with aconstraint where you write only
in questions.
Um, or you write, this isactually one of my favorites.
Um, you write avoiding is, was,or ing words.
(28:55):
I as an editor, I just I hatethose, those being verbs.
They're like the name of myexistence.
So that's good anyway.
Get that stuff out of here.
Yeah.
Yeah, a little uh little copyediting advice there.
Um so that can that can focusyour energy and your attention.
You might write a dialogue umbetween two characters.
(29:18):
Um, if you're a fiction writer,between yourself and another
thinker or a whole series ofthinkers in which you're trying
to articulate your argument tothem, and they in turn
articulate their argument toyou.
It could be something as simpleas a list of possible titles, of
(29:41):
arguments, of main points.
Um it could be visual, you know.
Uh one uh one fun strategy hereis to divide a piece of paper
into three columns and sketch athree panel comic that uh is
intended to Embody one of yourmain points.
(30:03):
So if you're a visual thinker,that can be a really fun way to
do it.
So the strategies are nearlyinfinite, really.
And they're a lot of fun.
And what you want to do is pickthe one that you think is going
to best serve you where you areat that given moment, where you
(30:25):
have something that you're stuckwith.
You know, if you're if you'restruggling to define, say, what
your contribution is, well, thenI think a dialogue would be,
would be great, where you dohave to, in writing, say to
someone and have them respond toyou what you're trying to uh
what you're trying to say.
(30:46):
Um if you are trying to figureout, let's see.
I don't have another exampleright off the top of my head.
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
Well that was a lot of examples.
I, you know, it so it it's I I'mjust as you're as you're
talking, I'm thinking about allthe the ways in which this
approach generally is is sohelpful.
And it feels to me like youknow, when you're stuck, you're
at an uncertain point that'sgenerating some kind of anxiety
(31:23):
or or fear or whatever.
That what you need is sort of amulti, you know, pronged uh
approach, which which this is,which is you you need sometimes
to take that big scary thing andbreak it into small chunks.
Yeah.
You know, you need to dosomething that's not scary, you
(31:45):
need to do something that putsyour brain into a new pathway
that you're not in a rut thatyou were stuck in.
If you're stuck, it's usuallybecause you keep banging on one
direction, one strategy, andthat's not working.
So you need to redirect yourbrain and so uh and and get
moving, you know.
I mean, that's so so I think ifyou if you sort of broad brush,
all the things you've justtalked about are ways to you
(32:08):
know take a small step withoutfear that allows your brain to
be creative again, to readdressthe the whatever the issue is,
and that's just like seems likea very good, you know, recipe.
SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's another reason thatit works so well for the 12-week
year, because we're all aboutbreaking down the big scary
things into doable steps thatthat feel less overwhelming.
Absolutely, absolutely, yeah,yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:38):
Not trying to focus on just the you know, a book,
that's a crazy or the fear, yougotta break it down.
So, all right, what am I reallytalking about here?
What are those what are thespecific things I need to figure
out how to do?
SPEAKER_00 (32:51):
Yeah, in this section or in this scene, not in
not even in this chapter, maybethat might even be too big.
SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
Right, right.
So so those are some of thestrategies.
Um if you are just sort ofgeneral advice to to someone
who's combining the uncertaintysort of strategy with 12-week
year, how how would you sort ofphrase that?
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
So sure.
So I I think it helps really inin two ways.
When you're planning a project,um it gives you another way of
creating that inventory of tasksthat you need to complete uh
toward a goal, right?
If you're asking yourselfquestions about what you don't
(33:39):
know, you can turn those intosteps.
Um but when it comes to thewriting sessions themselves, I
think it works there as well.
And and I think that that's whythis is able to bypass the
plotter versus pancer dichotomy,because you can plan to on a
(34:05):
certain day say, okay, I'm goingto experiment with this.
Um, and then when that daycomes, set a timer if you want
and and go for it, right?
So you can you can plan to writewith uncertainty.
You can you can plan to dealwith it.
(34:27):
And and I think that thosethings can coexist perfectly
fine.
SPEAKER_01 (34:32):
Yeah, and and you know, more to the point, I
think, you know, I think one ofthe things that I'm I'm learning
as we talk about this is that,you know, whichever side of the
aisle you find yourself leaningto just from your own
personality standpoint, eitherway, you need to number one,
embrace uncertainty because it'sa reality that you're gonna deal
(34:55):
with.
It's funny because when I coachuh business book writing
clients, I mean, this is thelike you think of that maybe as
like the one of the leastcreative acts possible, right?
But if that's just not true atall.
Even though they're maybewriting about a system they've
been training people on foryears, they make an outline,
(35:15):
because I make them and make anoutline, and then they start
writing.
And I say, but here's what'sgonna happen.
You have this beautiful outline,even down to the chapter
section.
But what's gonna happen when youstart writing is it's gonna get
messy on you.
Yep, yep.
And I tell them, don't worryabout that, just keep writing,
we'll see what happens.
Because sometimes in that mess,something genius that you didn't
outline for originally appearsand uh makes us redo the
(35:39):
outline.
And so, so even plotters need toembrace that uncertainty and
discovery are going to happen,but for them, the key is don't
be afraid of that, but use it,be ready to use it.
And for panthers, panthersalready embrace uncertainty on
one level, but I think one ofthe things that can be a problem
for panthers is that when theydo get stuck, when that
(36:02):
discovery engine isn't somehowturning into words anymore.
I think sometimes panthers haveunderinvested in tools to
provide structure in a pinch.
You know, if your car is stuckand you need to stick something
under the tire to get it movingoff the ice or out of the hole,
you know, like pancers need sometools too to keep the discovery
(36:23):
moving forward.
And and I think this, you know,your you're just that first
example or exercise of ofbreaking your page into two.
Like to me, even just thatsimple tool is a way for a
pantser to say, look, my my mymy brain is no longer
automatically the next thing Ineed to know.
Now I need to make it a littlebit more rigorous.
(36:44):
I need to go back and think itthrough.
And so it's not saying you'replotting even, you're just
trying to figure out what thenext thing that you want to
discover is, but you need aprocess.
Yes, yes, I feel exactly this isreally a tool that both sides
can use without thinking thatthey're giving in to the other.
It's just making their approachas as good as it can be.
SPEAKER_00 (37:04):
Yes, yes.
No, I think I think that'sthat's so that's so well said
because you know it's it's it'sa frame, it's it's a playground,
it's the place in which you'regoing to play and learn and
discover.
It's it's not a prison, but noris this just nor is it just this
(37:25):
sort of abstract, like, I'lljust go where where the muse
takes me, because the musedoesn't really show up that
frequently.
Um, but it's funny that in a wayplotters and panthers need the
same medicine.
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
Yeah, that's a funny thought.
unknown (37:42):
That's a funny thought.
SPEAKER_01 (37:43):
Well, hey, and as writing coaches, that's good if
we have we have one bottle togive people.
Exactly.
That's good.
Fantastic.
All right.
Well, if they want to learnmore, they're gonna have to come
to the workshop.
Yes, I hope they will.
October 22nd, 20th, October20th, October 20th.
And all the information will bein the show notes so people can
(38:06):
uh find that easily.
Christina, thank you for theconversation today.
Thank you, Trevor.
SPEAKER_02 (38:11):
This is fun.
SPEAKER_01 (38:12):
Yeah, we'll we'll be back again soon, uh, I'm sure.
All right, take care.
SPEAKER_00 (38:17):
Bye.
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