couples retreat audio

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We know you can get after it.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
You guys got mediators here now we can we can,
we can translate if we need to.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yeah, well, try my best to do like a little
bit of a snapshot. I mean we met thirteen years ago.
She quickly got pregnant. I got locked up in jail,
so then I got out right in time for my
son to be born. And that was kind of like
how our whole relationship started. It's pretty rocky. And then

(00:36):
there was trust issues from some of the you know,
that whole situation that happened to me using and all
that stuff, and like barriers started going up earlier on
in the relationship between like certain communications and stuff, and
I think we just never knew how to undo that,
and it just kind of like perpetuated to a point

(00:58):
where about seven years in, you know, we were just
kind of coexisting, co parenting roommates. You know, at a
point it was just we resented each other. We had
some explosive arguments, and then that's when we like the
first conversation of some sort of separation started. We decided

(01:22):
to go in the couple's therapy, did probably ten or
twelve weeks of that, and then things were getting better.
I thought we had some tools to work on some stuff,
and you know, within like a year kind of fell
back into some of the same behaviors, lack of communication,

(01:48):
not talking about stuff. It's interesting because she's pretty, she's
kind of on the introverted side, but I share like
my whole shit with everybody that like in my network.
I'm not close friends and stuff, but with her, I
can't talk to you know what I mean. It makes
no sense, but that's what happens. And I think it's
because like from my point of view, it's been like

(02:13):
I'll bring something up and you know, she's uh, either
like retaliates or kind of justified. You know, like there's
like it doesn't land right, Like it doesn't get received
in the way that I'm expecting it to or hoping
it does. So then for me it's like that's no

(02:33):
longer a topic of conversation, Like you know what I mean,
someone like reacts negatively and then you're just like for me,
it was just like, well, I don't like that negative interaction.
I'm just gonna avoid that completely forever, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yeah, and then.

Speaker 4 (02:48):
Most some of the times it's just like a cool
like I like to know more information, so I'll like
ask questions and then to him it's like I'm negative
and like turning that part down or something.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah, I don't mean, I'm just yeah, I'm not trying
to make her sell with the bad guy. Definitely is
just from my perspective.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
But well, you got to keep in mind that you're
a blue collar worker, which means you have blue collar
friends and colleagues, and the people that are around you
are gonna communicate very differently than your wife is going to.
And if anybody's going to give you negative pushback, she's
the one who's supposed to be able to do that
because it's her job to keep you in check. That's
the reality of it. You guys are supposed to be
able to work off of each other in that aspect,

(03:29):
and the people that are around you aren't emotionally invested
in your marriage the way that your wife is. So
when you go to your friends and they don't give
a fuck, they're gonna listen to you and yeah, man,
that really sucks, and they're gonna placate the conversation because
they're not It doesn't change their home life. This will
change your home life. So you have to find ways
to talk to her that is not like you talk
to the other people in your life, because she doesn't.

(03:51):
She's not blue collar worker, not an inmate. Like, it's
a very different conversation and you have to treat her
as such. We had to deal with that a little
bit in the beginning.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, we just didn't have know how to do that.
And then went after the year when things kind of
reached the pinnacle again where we were just like hating
each other or whatever you want to call it, resenting
each other. Then that time it kind of led to
another more serious conversation about separation or divorce or whatever,

(04:23):
and in the process of trying to talk through that,
we realized we were going to hit some speed bumps here.
It wasn't going to be a clean negotiation. So then
we were like, well, one of us had suggested going
to a couple's therapy to kind of get like a
media or almost to like work this out, not to
like fix the relationship, but to like how to like
leave the relationship with some dignity and not destroy each other.

(04:45):
And then like meeting with the counselor a different one
than we used before. She was like, you, guys, don't
need a divorce. You just need to talk to each other,
you know, because we were still very much in love
with each other. It's just so much wreckage around our
relationship or you know, but then we've kind of gone

(05:06):
through like some cyclical form of that for the you know,
the next five to six years of our relationship, Like
we could do good for a while, and then we
kind of fall back into these same behaviors. And what
I think is happening is we're not actually breaking through

(05:27):
that act like the barrier, like we work we work
it out, like we you know, we can do things
better for a short period of time, and it's easier
to just start thinking like everything's okay, but we haven't
actually healed or repaired the damage that calls that in
the first place. So very quickly there's return those barriers

(05:48):
of communication and we just fall back into it.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
So so you guys are not actually you're you're just
sticking your head in the sand aftern argument, pretending things
aren't happening.

Speaker 5 (05:57):
Not necessarily. I think each time it's like a different level.

Speaker 4 (06:01):
Like the first time was like your basic stuff, like
I hate how you leave the refrigerator door, like it
was that nippicky stuff, and then we got through that
stuff and then it.

Speaker 5 (06:11):
Was like a deeper a little bit deeper over.

Speaker 4 (06:15):
But it's the same. It presents itself as the same problem.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Do you actually say that I hate when you no?
Okay no?

Speaker 4 (06:23):
And then like and then this time it's turned into
like what we're finding out is like how much of
it is way more than the stuff that we do,
and part of it is like things that have happened
in the past, or like a lot of it is
how we were raised and like what we understand as

(06:43):
like what love is or how to give and receive love,
or like the things that happened to us as children
that like make that a sensitive area of like like
there's some certain things that I do. Like for him,
his parents got divorced, and his mom is very much
like I will do anything you can do nothing wrong,

(07:04):
and if you want, I will wipe your butt for fun.

Speaker 5 (07:07):
And then his dad is like more.

Speaker 4 (07:12):
Like structured and like this is acceptable behavior and that's not.
And then so the dynamic is any kind of like
not super supportive is immediately negative. So like he some
He'll I'll get to the point where I'm like his
dad for him, and then it's rough.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, Like I realized somewhere in this process that I
had a need for validation that only my dad could
appease as a kid, Like he was the validation I wanted.
It didn't matter how much my mom loved me or
you know, embrace me or whatever. Like he was the
one that I wanted to say, like you're doing good,

(07:55):
You're okay, you're you know, I love you. Didn't really
get a whole lot of that, which is like only
enhanced the need for that. But then at some point
she kind of replaced my father, like I grew out
of needing his validation as much, but then I wanted
her validation the same way. So like you know, whatever

(08:18):
that need is didn't go away, it just transformed into
you know, now her and she's not that giving in
that way either, Like and why because.

Speaker 6 (08:36):
For me, like.

Speaker 4 (08:40):
Back to like what I'm what is my normal? It's
like that wasn't normal in my family. Like we're not very.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
No touchy feely, they're very they're all like that's the
word I'm looking for Academics like kind of think on
it like a very you know, it's every conversation is
like a heated debate about something that happened four hundred
years ago or something like. But that's how they don't
like kind of embrace and like applaud each other or

(09:12):
raise each other up like that.

Speaker 4 (09:13):
It's just and we don't put each other down, but
it's it's just right. It's like so then for me,
like that's hard to be that. And then also it's
like I don't want to be unaccepting and I don't
want to be unloving, but at the same time, if
there's something that like, I'm like, I need something more,

(09:36):
Like when early on in our relationship, like he was working.

Speaker 5 (09:39):
A ton because he wanted to.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
Be better and do better, and I'm like, we have
this little baby, I'm losing my fucking mind, Like I
need you home, like he would be gone from before
we wake up till like after we went to bed,
and like, so finding some balance in that. So like
that was I think the beginning of like I need
something different than what you're giving me in.

Speaker 5 (10:01):
My relation in our relationship. So it's like I don't like.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
Not that it's like a form of weakness, but it's
like if if it's not applaudable, then I have a heart.
If one thing's not applaudable, then I feel like it's
hard for me to be like, you're amazing, you know
what I mean? Does that make any sense? And it's awful?
Like I want our work?

Speaker 2 (10:28):
Is your family really big on manners?

Speaker 7 (10:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (10:30):
Okay, so then why can't you show gratitude and show
manners because it's basically what it is. If he's somebody
that needs your validation and needs to be seen, for example,
your perspective of him not being home and you needing
more of him. If he was building the business that's
allowed to leave you guys, to allow you guys to
live in the home that you're living in, and financially
support you and do the things that he's doing, you

(10:51):
look at that as a sacrifice. You're both making a sacrifice.
I know that a lot of women don't want to
hear this, but men don't want to be away from
their family. And when we're working those long hours, the
last thing we want to fucking do is get up
and go to work and miss our children growing up.
That's never talked about. Men don't ever go well, I
miss my fucking family because when they're like, you work
too much? What you're saying is is I miss you

(11:12):
and that makes us feel like shit, we don't want
to fucking do this either. We would much rather be
at Homeland on the couch watching TV with you. We
don't have that option because somebody's got to fucking do
the shit that man are supposed to do. So having
a changing your perspective of that could change the way
that you guys argue moving forward knowing that you both
made sacrifices and that's part of what you needed to
do to get to where you are now. And if

(11:33):
your life is good now, then that's just a you know,
something that had to happen. But back to the giving
gratitude and showing appreciation, that's small things and it doesn't
it's not a matter of you're amazing, and it's hey,
I noticed she took the trash out. Things like that
goes a long fucking way, and it didn't have to
force that. That's manners.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Sometimes it would come down and she and I don't
want to make it sound like I'm criticizing because she's
gotten better with this stuff, but like if I make
a coffee, I make her a coffee, or at least
offer to make her a coffee. If she makes a coffee,
she just makes a coffee. I sits down, and it
would drive me. I'm like, why wouldn't you at least ask,
you know, or something like that. It's like even like

(12:14):
small gestures like that is like where I would feel
some sort of gratitude for you know.

Speaker 7 (12:19):
It seems to me, though, from what you're saying, Chelsea,
like you were brought up in possibly a household that
acts of service and acts of love were not really
a thing. So she can't do what she was never
taught right, and she obviously can't do for you what
she doesn't know you need.

Speaker 5 (12:40):
So if you haven't talked about like.

Speaker 7 (12:42):
Hey, it might be nice if like we had a
coffee together kind of thing, like the things that would
make you feel more validated as a man, being shown
more gratitude for the things you do.

Speaker 5 (12:53):
Like, she can't do anything she.

Speaker 7 (12:55):
Doesn't know that you need or want, and she was
not raised to do those things right, So it's like
she's walking she's learning to walk too.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, And there's also a mix of like when I
would try to bring it up, not knowing how to
address it in a way that like didn't make her
immediately defend herself.

Speaker 7 (13:13):
Yeah, we both have very similar past and that we
are inherently like aggressive combative.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, I have to hold that talking. It's got to
be close.

Speaker 7 (13:28):
To you have that in women that were independent before
they met their men. It's very hard for us to
not continue to do that and to not be aggressive
and combative and trust a dude because we've been doing
everything for ourselves.

Speaker 5 (13:45):
So she's still battling with that part.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah. I think the dynamic of our relationship in general
is very much like she doesn't need me, but I
need her, you know what I mean. Like she's I
just mean, like she's very independent. She was very independent
when I met her. It's one of the things I
fell in love with. Like I don't and I was
never really super attractive to women and needed me to
do something for them, even though she wants me to.

(14:11):
And that's fine. She isn't necessarily has never really needed
me to, you know what I mean. But it's been
kind of a weird dynamic in our relationship. I think
I saw you taking notes also, like like what we were
touching on last night is like I'm more of a

(14:32):
leadership role. I think, like we were talking about the
submissive and dominant thing in that dynamic. And like I
don't think I'm a submissive by any means. I mean,
I manage a company. I managed grown men for a living,
Like I know how to lead. But like she's always
led in the sense of being the breadwinner of the family,
so like on the family financial side. So like what

(14:54):
you were touching on earlier, it is a little weird
in our relationship because I was working very hard to
make a third of what she makes, so you know
what I mean, while she was taking care because she
had a business that was already producing, and you know
what I mean. And she's always just kind of known
how to make money and keep it better than me,
you know. And so like I was raised by a

(15:17):
baby boomer, it was like work hard to make money,
that's it. That's ther only you trade time for money
and very for very little money. And it's been you know,
it's taken me some years to even start to break
that kind of chain of thinking. It's where now, like
running my own business, I'm home tremendously more than I
ever was before. You know, if I'm out of the

(15:39):
house five or six hours a day, that's pretty average.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
You know, it takes time to get there. Yeah, and
if she was a business owner prior, then that's again,
this is the union. You guys are supposed to be
suffering together to build the future that you want. It's
nobody's going to just start off and it's going to
be amazing, and like you are always going to have
to learn each other. I want you said that you
need her. Why do you need because there's a difference

(16:06):
between one in need.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, I'm glad. I guess I don't need her well,
and especially now, I don't feel like I would need
her as much as I did in the beginning. But
in the beginning I kind of did. And the only
reason I say that is because I was very lost

(16:28):
when we met. You know, I was new in recovery.
I've been addicted to hard drugs for over eight years
of my life. Like it was, I was, I didn't
have an identity, you know what I mean. And then
we had this baby coming and so like I did
kind of lean on her in the beginning to be

(16:50):
that rock for us because I didn't have much, I
have anything. I had a shitty credit, no money, just
out of jail, and like within we had a baby,
you know what I mean. And so and I also
came into it with like a negative level of trust

(17:13):
that I had to like rebuild, you know what I mean.
So I just like in the beginning, I felt like
I had to prove myself a lot. And then that
went on beyond when it should have. Probably, you know,
instead of being like a year or two of like
kind of earning my stripes as a father, as a husband,
all those things, I probably did that for like five years.

(17:33):
And I was just kind of a yes man and
I would just do whatever, you know, co sung whatever
she wanted to do. And then at some point I
realized how like lost I was feeling in it and
miserable I felt. And then I started gaining a voice.
But then she was like, who's this right? You know
what I mean, Like, what do you mean You're not
coming to wherever I want to go? Like it was

(17:54):
like even little stuff like I want to go spend
you know, the day with my friends in southern Maryland,
and it's like, you know, for me, it sucked. It
was like an hour drive, hour and a half drive.
We're there all day, I don't know anyone. I'm in
someone else's house, all day. So like at one point
I was like, no, I'm not doing that. I'm not
spending my Saturday like that. She's like, wait what you
know what I mean? Like, And that's that's where like

(18:16):
things started to change in the dynamic of our relationship
and stuff. But it is kind of like a strange
because I didn't come like if I met a woman today,
it would be a whole different dynamic of starting a relationship,
you know what I mean, Like I have strengths, I
know who I am, you know what I mean, Like
I have some self worth. But it started I started

(18:39):
in a negative bank account with her, and you know,
just as much as I guess I don't know what
that I needed her, but she was an integral part
of me becoming who I am todays.

Speaker 8 (18:54):
One thing, No, not really, I have other things. But
in regards to that need versus one thing and everything
that you guys had to go through in the beginning
of your relationship and this development that you went through,
do you feel like there's a kind of like power
imbalance or like a worth imbalance due to those things.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah, definitely a power struggle. We were touched on that
last night, and like I said with her being you know,
having better financial status than me. And that's another thing.
Our finances have been separate through our relationship too, So
that's yeah.

Speaker 9 (19:34):
Why why is it still separated?

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Well, you guys have got married. We discussed it, talked
about we even opened joint bank accounts things like that,
like we were going to do it, and then we
both kind of, I think, just felt uncomfortable and just
like left the conversation, never revisit it. And it's just
been like, you know, twelve years of that, ten years
of that.

Speaker 4 (19:58):
And so for me, like part of it is like
still back to the I want to be okay no
matter what, right. So like, so that's one thing that
I still have not given over to our relationship. And
I feel like part of it is so that, like
because I'm just waiting for it to be over because

(20:19):
I know at some point he's gonna leave me, because
he's gonna figure out who I am and like and like.

Speaker 5 (20:23):
How do you know that have low self worth?

Speaker 8 (20:26):
How do you know that though? How do you know
he's gonna leave you if you if he sees that
side of you.

Speaker 4 (20:30):
Well, so it started like in the beginning, like he
was so broken and whatever, and I didn't want to
fix him, but I felt like as soon as he
figures out like how handsome he is, like how like
hordrible worker he is, and like can function on his own,
then he's gonna leave me and I'm gonna be here

(20:50):
with nothing right And so for me, especially having kids,
it's like I don't want that to happen and like
me be completely fucked and like not be able to
like buy my kids groceries or whatever. It is, so
like it's always it's stayed separate because he still struggles
with it, and especially having a business like he does,

(21:12):
like he gets big sums of money, and then in
between those times, like things get spread. Then so he'll
pull money from different places, like we have one joint
account where like our taxes go and he'll like pull
it and put it back.

Speaker 5 (21:26):
But like that makes me feel unsafe.

Speaker 8 (21:28):
Is it because he's irresponsible these things are happening or
is he just moving money to accommodate life situations? So okay, okay, yeah,
So before I get too far away from or before
we get too far away from the conversation, you said
that if he starts to see himself the way that
you see him, he's gonna leave you. Five minutes ago,

(21:54):
he was just talking about how much he has changed
from the beginning of your guys relationship. So it's sounds
like he's getting to that point and he hasn't left
you yet.

Speaker 7 (22:05):
But but he not only has he not left you,
like not only has he not left you, but he
accredited those changes that he's making too.

Speaker 5 (22:16):
And that is so like, you're on.

Speaker 7 (22:18):
This pedestal in his mind. I know I've been there.
You're on this pedestal for him that you don't know
you're on.

Speaker 5 (22:24):
Right.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
Well, that's another thing that that has struggled in the
communication around the issues we've had, is that like, yes,
we visited the conversation of separation and divorce at times,
but and so she's constantly thinking about I think from
our conversations, constantly think about like he's ready leave me,
he's very leaving. But I'm bringing up those conversations because

(22:47):
I'm like, I don't want to get there, like this
is where we're going if we continue on this path,
like we're not going to survive. I want to see
the change. I mean that first conversation was seven years ago.
I've been you know, we have been fighting for this
relationship since then. Like it's if I was ready to
walk up and get up and leave, like I would
have left, Like it wouldn't have been a conversation. I

(23:09):
wouldn't have been going to therapy. I wouldn't have been
doing all these things. I spent thousands, hundreds of thousands
of hours talking to network friends, family, like about how
to be better for her or how to you know, work.

Speaker 4 (23:23):
So so yes, he's turning into that man who is independent,
right right, So, like seven years ago, the initial thing
that happened.

Speaker 5 (23:38):
Was I never made any of these choices.

Speaker 4 (23:42):
I didn't want the kids, I didn't want this house,
I didn't want these He was saying these things, Yeah,
let me find out who I am. And at the
same time, like was developing this relationship with this female
that worked for him that I said, I am uncomfortable
with this happening.

Speaker 9 (23:58):
You guys were married at this point.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
And then and then back to the very beginning, which
is that he doesn't feel comfortable talking to me about
certain things. It's like I wanted that like friendship back
in our relationship where we had fun, and it was
so hard to do that. And like also take care
of the responsibilities of being like having a house and

(24:21):
bills and kids that we have to organize, and not
feeling like we're fighting against each other because if somebody
has to be home while the other person is working
on self care, then it is kind of like it's
like this dynamic of like being against each other instead
of like doing it for each other. It can be

(24:43):
like the perspective can change where it's like I get
to do this for you, so you can do this
or whatever. But like depending on how grounded we are
as individuals, that can change very much. And so like
that was the first thing, and then that kind of
like blew up. I feel like I saw it happening

(25:03):
and like my crazy made it crazier for me.

Speaker 6 (25:09):
Right, So.

Speaker 8 (25:13):
There was a step outside of the marriage and leading
up to that, you guys are already having issues.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, well, yeah, we were having issues because the first
round of therapy was before I ever even Mandy ever
worked for me.

Speaker 4 (25:29):
Was no, it was while she started, because I remember
it coming up that like I don't feel comfortable with
this happening, and the therapist was.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
Like, that was our second round of therapy. That was
the woman we went to the man first. Okay, but yes,
you're not wrong about that. It was during that therapy situation. Yeah,
Just to give like a little bit of a synopsis,
like I was, I hired a woman to work for
me and do photos for Instagram and stuff for my business.

(26:01):
You know, she's on site a lot, We were around
each other a lot, and the friendship turned into more,
I guess, a little bit more than a friendship as
far as intimacy on an emotional level. But there's never
any physical transaction that happened.

Speaker 10 (26:16):
For me.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
It's very different than it is for women because we
are physical creatures and they are emotional. So an emotional
infidelity for a woman is much worse than physically.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
I'm not saying that it didn't escalate.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Just so that everybody knows, like, because there's people out
there who don't understand that. For men, you'll say did
you sleep with them? And for a woman, she'll say
did you love them? Did you love her?

Speaker 1 (26:38):
Right?

Speaker 2 (26:38):
And that's a very different thing, and a lot of
people don't realize the difference. So the emotional infidelity, even
though there's not a physical thing happening there for from
a woman's perspective, it's it's I would say, it's probably worse.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah, I mean I definitely don't deny the wrongdoing in
that scenario. And then just to give you the full picture,
like since then that was three years ago or something now,
and then our more recent situation was like we were

(27:15):
again at a crossroads of like are we going to
make this work or not? Is there going to be
changed or not? Blah blah blah. And then during or
after that kind of explosion, I ended up actually meeting Escort,
and things did escally beyond. I mean it was Escort
so obviously as but I didn't want any I only

(27:41):
wanted that physical connection because our situation had kind of
gotten you know, pretty desolate at that point. And then
that's kind of like what brought us here, because that
blew up. She found out about everything like two months
ago or so now, and then we like I was

(28:07):
out of the house. I mean she well, she you know,
confronted me. I'll say arms first confrontation. Well yeah, but
then she wanted me out of the house. Yeah, police

(28:27):
ask for me out. Blah blah blah. I left the house.
She wanted to work, continue to work on it, and
I thought at that point we were done. Like when
I left that scenario where she you know, kind of
attacked at me, I thought, this is it, Like we've
been through the ringer, like this is it and there's

(28:48):
no like I knew it was unforgivable. I knew it
was unforgivable when I did it, and I had already
been living with the shame and guilt of it just
fingers crossed open. She never found out. Basically, I didn't
want to keep doing it. I didn't want you know,
I hated myself for it, basically, and so then when

(29:10):
she found out, like all that was just like okay,
like I'm done, you know, for her, I imagined, and
then she kind of wasn't that way, and I was like,
what the hell is this? And that's what I was
something about last night was like that was the first
time I realized that she possibly did unconditionally love me,
because I was like, this is unforgivable in my mind,

(29:32):
should be unforgivable, and she was willing to forgive me.
And so as much as the struggles have been in
our relationship, and at times I have been like kind
of checked out or wanting done, feeling that unconditional love,
I felt like I should at least give it the
shot again as best as I can. And then so

(29:54):
we started some individual therapy and I had already been
kind of falling into watching hear guys's content, and I
had showed it to her through this process, and then
that's how we ended up here.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
So you found our content first? Oh wow, that never happens.

Speaker 8 (30:14):
Okay, First, I want to thank you guys for saying
all that outloud. It's not easy to talk about the
things that hurt you. And now I'm getting emotional.

Speaker 9 (30:29):
A couple of.

Speaker 8 (30:29):
Things that I want to touch on that I may
notes of is the the lack of attention from your father.
There is a deprivation of love happening there. And I
think that I mean personally in me when I think
of the lack of love and love being very conditional

(30:51):
growing up, and I only get that if as praise
are those kinds of things instead of just the way
a child should be loved, it makes me feel undesirable
and wanted, unworthy. Abandonment kicks in sometimes, and hearing that
transferred from father to wife, it's almost like a trauma transfer.

Speaker 9 (31:19):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (31:21):
So?

Speaker 9 (31:22):
Are what are the things that you need from her.

Speaker 8 (31:25):
To feel loved. And I know you touched on like
the coffee thing. And something I didn't write down that
I want you to think of is what are what
are ways that she does express love that is something
that you may not do, like the offering for coffee
when you go to the kitchen.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
Well, as I mentioned the financial part, like when things
have gotten hard for me or my business, there's never
been an electric cut off, there's never been watercuat, you
know what I mean, She like she knows how to
take care of that stuff and offers secure in that sense.
Because my income does fluctuate a lot, and I can

(32:05):
have one hundred thousand dollars in my bank account on
Monday and two hundred dollars by Friday. It's just, you know,
it's crazy, and I never really know what's mine. So
although I've been able to afford and pay for a
lot more than I ever was before, there's times where
it's like we need you know, I should be giving
her money for this or that, but it's like I

(32:26):
don't know if I can. Like I have it, but
I don't know if I can, it might might put
me negative next week. So I think that's a huge
form of her showing love or you know, and in
my own admission, sometimes I was kind of naive to
how much she was doing it, you know, And then

(32:49):
we had conversational all back where I was just like,
I just want you to know, like I've seen that.
I feel that the reason it's hard for me to
acknowledge it is because it's creates so much shame for me. Yeah,
curating to her that she's doing a good job taking
care of us also is like admitting that I can't
you know what I mean, Like you're drop the ball

(33:10):
and it doesn't necessarily make sense, but that's the way
it feels to me.

Speaker 9 (33:13):
No, it totally makes sense.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
And it's been something I've really struggled with. Yeah, And
it's not because I don't think she should make what
she makes. It's just that, like I have this perpetual
feeling of failure because it's like no matter what I do,

(33:35):
no matter what I've tried to do, and you know,
I mean I came out of jail, I was working.
My dad offered me a job back after I got
out of jail, starting at ten bucks an hour, you know,
at twenty three years old, with a kid like I was.
I worked my way up again from the bottom, but
he never he never really paid me what I was worth.

(33:59):
I was just at that way. I mean, I went out,
I did go up and pay while I worked for him.
But then when I started my own business, thing started
to change for the veteran. But there was still a
time like when you know, when I first built my business,
everything was going back into it trying to build it.
You know. I didn't take out a loan until I
bought the first like company ban like I had, you know,

(34:21):
every tool, everything was bought with self generated money, you know.
But she was supportive of but it's just like, yeah,
I don't even know where I'm going with that. But
it created a lot of issues with us financially and like,
and a lack of security for me, even though I
knew she was like a security blanket at the end

(34:42):
of the day. I also didn't know because our finances
weren't combined, I didn't really know how much strain or
how much she had to take care of us. So
I was always in a panic about it. Like I
was always thinking, like maybe we're going to fail, like
you know what I mean. And that was a lack
of communication. We didn't communicate about the financial part either,

(35:04):
you know, unless money was missing from somewhere that she
could see, we didn't talk about it. And even that
it was like, did you take five grand out of
the personal Well, yeah, but I make payroll, but I'll
put it back next week, you know what I mean. Like,
so our communication between that's been very few and far between.
So it's like, I don't know if knowing what she

(35:30):
had would have affected that feeling at all, but I
know that it's probably not helping because and not that
I need like her money, but like again, even though
I know she's always taking care of everything, I don't
know how. I don't know how how bad of a
spot it's put her in or how, you know what

(35:51):
I mean. And so she's never made me feel like
as much as I talk about the feelings of this
financial thing, none of it's ever been from her, like
very few and far between. Has it ever even come
up as like a negative thing from her mouth. But
I have enough of it self talk for this whole room,

(36:13):
you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (36:15):
And for me, like that is how I show love,
Like my family is not intimate, Like even when all
this happened, I don't. This is like I realized how
much our family dynamics impact who we are, because like
when all this happened, like when I found out, like

(36:39):
I was scared to talk to my friends because like
my closest friends were really close with that girl and
we were friends for a long time. Messy stuff happened,
so like that part is weird, and I wanted to
call my family.

Speaker 5 (36:59):
But they're fucking crazy. Like they're fucking crazy.

Speaker 4 (37:03):
So my initial thought after this, after I found out,
was to go beat him up. So I got in
trouble legally from that. And then when my family found out,
like I only told my mom and I waited like
a week because so I'm one of five kids and
they're very Italian and like you don't mess with us

(37:28):
or whatever, so and and every like that is how
we show our love by like fucking people up who
mess with you, but we don't say we love you.
We don't like do acts of service. Our way is
making sure that you are taken care of and you
won't physically be hurt or taken advantage of. And so
like I finally told my mom because I felt so

(37:51):
alone and I'm like going through all this stuff and
I don't want to call her and be like, hey,
I'm in jail and her have no idea, or like
my kids be like Daddy hasn't been home, and so
I was like, you cannot tell anybody because they're crazy.
And immediately my dad's like calling me about or like
texting me about stuff, like you gotta like figure out

(38:17):
how to like move cash out or something so you
can hide it if you guys get a divorce, like.

Speaker 5 (38:23):
All this stuff.

Speaker 4 (38:24):
And I'm like, I don't want to do that because
if I'm saying I want to work on our relationship
and build it on trust this time. If I'm saying that,
and at the same time, my actions are to like
hide things from you, That's not what the fuck I want,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (38:40):
And then so that was that, and then the next
day and then everybody, my other siblings. This is how
they work.

Speaker 4 (38:47):
It's like my parents will call them, they'll be like,
act like you don't know anything, but then you like
this is going on, to ask about it, right, and
it's always like, well, they didn't tell me much, like
I don't really know what's going on. But so then
I was like felt betrayed about that because my mom
literally was like I promised, like I understand why you

(39:07):
wouldn't want to say anything. Then the next day his
truck happens to break down because somebody puts some liquid
in his gas tank, and.

Speaker 5 (39:17):
My family nobody will say anything.

Speaker 4 (39:19):
So it's like my understanding of like love and like
vulnerability and intimacy is like nonexistent.

Speaker 5 (39:28):
So I feel so sad because I this.

Speaker 4 (39:32):
Is very much something that I have to learn how
to do, like learn how to let him in or
like learn how to let him know that like I
love him, because I don't want anybody to be able
to take that away from.

Speaker 5 (39:46):
Me, because that is weakness in my family, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 4 (39:52):
So the original question, like what how do I shoit
love like I should love like I've.

Speaker 5 (40:00):
Always wanted to work really hard because.

Speaker 4 (40:05):
Most of most of the time, even in like friendships,
the reason why people can't do things is.

Speaker 5 (40:12):
Because like I can't afford to.

Speaker 4 (40:14):
Go to the movies tonight, you know, And I never
wanted somebody in my circle to feel that way. So
I would like work a ton so that things could
just be taken care of. And like he's saying like
I've never been like, oh, well, you don't pay for

(40:35):
the paper towels or whatever. Like that is how I
I show my love by like taking that stress away.
But I didn't realize I was also taking like something
that he wanted he needed to feel as a man
away from him. But then I didn't know how to
show love in any other way. And then like it
led to this like pit in my stomach because everything

(40:58):
that I worked for like wasnt acknowledged. And he said
it like one time recently where it's like I just
realized that, like never once have I had to worry
about our light's getting cut off or whatever, and like
and that's all I've ever wanted to some degree for
a long time, which is why like all this other
stuff made me so sad, because it's like, you say,

(41:21):
you work so hard for our family, but you're not
doing that necessarily. His thing is like big picture down
the road, like we're gonna retire from this. My thing
is like it's not doing that or whatever, and so
like I didn't understand like how he was working so
hard because he had those friendships outside of our marriage,

(41:43):
because like he spent all of his time so if
I'm like if all your money and your time and
you're like your purpose is coming from that?

Speaker 5 (41:54):
Like what how am I the most important thing in
your life?

Speaker 11 (41:58):
You know?

Speaker 4 (41:59):
And and then the other stuff on top of that
was just real messy. But the thing that, like the
emotional thing brought me to which is the only like
the way that I see how all these little things
add up in your life to prepare you for something

(42:20):
like it gave me the tools and the time to
really think about, like what is it Do I love him?

Speaker 5 (42:29):
Or do I love like the idea of him?

Speaker 4 (42:32):
And so for me, like what I realized is that
that might be a problem for him that and am
I able to love him if like this would have
continued or if he struggles with like females or whatever,
and like so when this other thing happened, like I'm

(42:54):
stuck in this fucked up place cause it's like I
do love him for that, And then but then where
is the line between do you even respect me as
as your wife if you're able to like do that.
So it's a whole, like we said, it's like a
whole messive.

Speaker 6 (43:12):
Shit is.

Speaker 12 (43:15):
Your phone?

Speaker 9 (43:17):
Okay? So I have a lot in my brain a lot.

Speaker 8 (43:24):
So the first thing is, I'm gonna challenge you guys
tonight to sit down with the little journals that I
gave you guys or whatever you brought, and write down
ways that you need to be seen by each other
to feel loved.

Speaker 9 (43:40):
And I would like more than ten items.

Speaker 8 (43:43):
So I'm really gonna challenge you to sit down and
think if you hit ten perfect, if you come back
with eight, I'm gonna tell you try.

Speaker 9 (43:50):
Harder, all right. And then something that you guys touched
on was that.

Speaker 8 (44:01):
Through your guys' growth journey, there will be moments where
things are great and communication is awesome, and then you
guys will almost revert back to the toxic ways for
a bit. What is the triggering or defining moment where
you guys revert back because you're able to maintain good
communication and healthy styles for for a said amount of time,

(44:22):
and then there's there's a big red button that gets
hit and it could be something different within both of
you guys.

Speaker 9 (44:30):
Have you guys put thought into that. Can we identify
those things?

Speaker 6 (44:34):
I can?

Speaker 5 (44:36):
I kind of is his is sex?

Speaker 4 (44:39):
If it's like three days, he's like we're never having
sex again?

Speaker 5 (44:44):
And then.

Speaker 9 (44:46):
Well is that one of the reoccurring issues.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
Like okay, and then she says three days, but we've
gone three four weeks.

Speaker 8 (44:54):
Yeah, is there intimacy happening within that time period? What
do you are you guys cuddling on the couch. Sure,
we holding hands.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
That's another thing, like we've never more recently we have,
but okay, earlier in our relationship that wasn't a big
part of our intimacy at all really, so yeah, kind
of boiled down to sex, you know, I mean with
kids and all that stuff. Like we've never been like
real big on public displays of affection, even just sitting
next to each other, hand on her leg like she

(45:27):
you know, we've been driving in the car before and
I put my hand on her leg and she's like,
get your hand off of me because like she feels
like she's being grossed like or something.

Speaker 9 (45:35):
Really is that? Have you said that?

Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah? It's triggering for her, like from past experience.

Speaker 5 (45:40):
Well not necessarily like that, like but like the like.

Speaker 4 (45:46):
Book touch you stuff is from gross sometimes.

Speaker 8 (45:53):
So we're talking about specifically him putting his hand on
your thigh while you guys are driving in the car.
Does that make you feel like you're being rope to
make you feel uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
No, you have to pushed my hand away from that
before because you felt like my intentions were sex after
the date night that was the thing that happened. It's
possible like we went out for right and yeah, my
intentions word for sex in a way, but it's like
I'm trying to warm you up, just gentle touch in

(46:22):
your leg or you know what I mean.

Speaker 9 (46:24):
Is that the only time you do those gentle touches?
Yes to warm up?

Speaker 1 (46:31):
No?

Speaker 4 (46:32):
Yes, because we've even had the conversation. It's like, there's
gonna be times where I'm like on my period or
like super gassy or something like that where I don't
like it's not comfortable, like I'm.

Speaker 9 (46:48):
Not or you just had a hard mental day, right.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
I'm going.

Speaker 4 (46:56):
So then it's like, so what other ways can I
I show you intimacy? How else can we experience intimacy
other than that? Because that's not always going to be
on the table. And for a little bit, it was nothing.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
Like there's definitely been times. There's been times where I
haven't even put in any effort.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
This out yet though, have you figured out the intimacy
thing yet? Because this is this word speaking past past behavior.
So is there a current behavior where you guys have
figured out your intimacy.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
We're getting better day by day.

Speaker 4 (47:29):
It's helpful to not have babies like we've had babies
that are like touching me for twelve.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
Years, we've had a child under four because of our spread. Yeah,
so those are like the hardest years as far as
like you having to give everything to the kid time wise, right,
or they're jumping on her life. I mean, there's been
times that she's so stimulated that she didn't want my
arm around her, you know what I mean. And so
that's where it kind of that's why I talk about

(47:56):
what I saw about ties into the barriers I saw
them about earlier, because if you know, three times in
succession she's like, don't touch me, I don't like that,
don't touch me, I don't like that, or don't kiss me.
You know what I mean, I'm gonna stop and then yeah,
and then when that happens, it would happen like from
one way of touch, and then it checked that off

(48:18):
the list, that's no longer a thing. Another way of touch,
check that off the list, that's no longer a thing.
To where it got boiled down to like I'm like
President Trump when I'm just grabbing vaginas and like, let's
go because all the other intimacies have been removed.

Speaker 9 (48:32):
Why did it get removed? Why why was it shut
down so often?

Speaker 1 (48:36):
So like I mean, I think it was the kids
in that whole overstimulation.

Speaker 5 (48:42):
Yeah, that and then I'm sure the cheating didn't help. Yeah,
or that was.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
A whole different that was like years later from when
this stuff kind of started.

Speaker 9 (48:54):
But it doesn't continue and elevate or.

Speaker 4 (48:57):
No, it'll like wax and wait, like I feel like one,
I'm not like a super sexual person.

Speaker 5 (49:05):
And then like he would have certain things that he
would hear, but.

Speaker 4 (49:10):
Then other things like it there are certain like touches
or like if he like kisses me on this certain
part of my neck, it like sends chills down my
spine and not good chills, Like it's very much like it.

Speaker 5 (49:26):
Just I steel like I'm like yeah, and it's just like.

Speaker 4 (49:33):
This complete barrier and he feels that and it's immediately
like I don't want to be touched by you, but
I and we've had.

Speaker 5 (49:40):
Talks where it's like this thing.

Speaker 4 (49:43):
Is uncomfortable for me and then it'll happen again. And
then I feel like by doing that, it's like you're
I'm not even like you're not hearing me and how
I need to be touched or not touched. So then
and then sex just turns into like something I'm providing,

(50:04):
and like in my whole life, like I have never
had a uh like a healthy relationship with sex. Like
it's always been to get something or like just to
get by for the night, to have somewhere to stay,
like it has always had this like messed up feeling.

Speaker 5 (50:25):
So for me, it's never been a form of intimacy.

Speaker 4 (50:29):
So for it to be so important for him to
feel love in that way and like so not like
not intimate for me, Like the intimate part is sitting
next to each other or like if we're in a
public place, like just putting your hand behind my back.

Speaker 5 (50:49):
When we're like with friends or something.

Speaker 4 (50:51):
And then so if I'm not getting that, then like
I'm not really like I want to jump your bones
right now, because like I feel like I've been getting
shut down like the whole day, or like I'm not
like pretty, Like there's times so he's like, you're the
most beautiful person in the world, like why wouldn't you
think that I love you? And I'm like, but with

(51:12):
like other females or whatever, it's not just about other females.

Speaker 5 (51:17):
It's just about being seen.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
It's like, oh, I really like that shirt, or like,
oh I really like your hair today, and it's like
I didn't get that, so I felt like I'm just
like this thing, not this thing like this, like all right,
you're pretty, we all know that, or like I know that.

Speaker 9 (51:34):
You're not getting recognized. Yeah, in a sense, Yeah, I
get that. I get that hurt.

Speaker 8 (51:40):
Yeah, I haven't heard nice outfit in the last month
and a half, and every time we go out, somebody
else might get a compliment, So I get that.

Speaker 9 (51:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (51:49):
I did want to touch on real quick, so you
just elaborate a little bit on how sex is not
a fun thing for you. Yeah, So, well, before you
jump that, I want to challenge your thought process a
little bit into maybe why you're uncomfortable with the intimacy
that he's seeking, and not just sexually, but the physical

(52:13):
touch and those kinds of things. I would think that
that discomfort and trauma is more derived from the things
you had to do for survival and lack of it
being presented in your childhood mm hmm, because you're you're
not just having moments of oh I didn't like that.
Your body's having a visceral reaction to the things going on.

(52:37):
Have you put time into processing the decisions that you
had to make and the positions you had to put
yourself into.

Speaker 5 (52:45):
Like more recently, And I think this is why we're
like so kind of.

Speaker 4 (52:52):
In a awful situation but like a beautiful place, because
it's like we're finding out I mean, who like one
stuff Unbury like thirteen years of stuff and beyond like
how all these other things have like led to.

Speaker 5 (53:13):
These people that we are.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
I don't know, because of the we've kind of reached
a point because of everything we've been going through that
it was like there's really nothing left to lose at
this point, Like we might as well put every fucking
thing on the table, you know. And I think as humans,
you know, in our society or whatever, we're all kind
of guilty of. Like you know, when I when I

(53:39):
would start dating someone, I'm not going to be like, yeah,
I've been with twenty seven women like on first date,
you know what I mean? Like you shelter that like
you don't want to be like you kind of want
to like give them the best version of yourself, like
the highlight reel, right, And like the problem is it's
kind of asked backwards to where you should start. Like now,
if I was the starter relationship, I'd be like, here's

(53:59):
all my bullshit? Do you still love me? Because if
you do, then we're good, you know what I mean?
But like, instead it's the opposite, right, And like, so
through this process and through trying to talk through some
of this, like we've kind of gone down the road
of like what has happened in your life? Like what
has your sex life been like before before our relationship?
And actually because we never really talked about.

Speaker 8 (54:21):
It really, so you you really haven't disclosed much of what.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
You now we have little things here and there, but no,
not significantly.

Speaker 8 (54:31):
So little things here and there. So if this were
an Iceberg, are we still like above the water with
the information that you.

Speaker 4 (54:38):
Shared with him, We're like to the point where you
get enough to where it's like spitting out.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
Okay, you know too much about Iceberg? Well, like where
it started right for me, Like you know this is
in the first year or two she came home one day,
like the pills propped up on the bed. She's like,
were you fucking jerking off? And I'm like, no, what

(55:06):
are you talking about? She's like, well, the pills propped
up on the bed. And it became this whole thing,
like a whole argument. And I'm like, I wasn't fucking
jerking off at least not there right then, you know
what I mean? But I didn't like to me, I
didn't think it was an issue. But now all of
a sudden, it's an issue, and now it's something again,
another barrier where it's like, now we don't talk about that,
so like masturbation's off the table. We never talk about that.

(55:29):
Why But because it was so well and that's what.

Speaker 9 (55:33):
I'm saying, that one explosive moment.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
No, because the trauma attached to that was like an
ex who used to like not touch her, but then
when she would leave for work, he would jerk off
and she like came home, like came back, like came
back in for keys or something, and he's already like
jerking off after not learning her.

Speaker 8 (55:52):
But that's not a thing anymore, Like you guys can
talk about that now, right.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Yeah, Well, well that was like I mean we talked
about it that day, like when the argument came up,
like her reasoning was, and I'm like, well, that's not me.
I'm not doing that, you know what I mean. If
I am jerking off, it's also I'm still going to
touch you, like I mean, I'm a horny motherfucker, you
know what I mean. Like so like, but then that

(56:17):
became something that was like I never told I literally
have never even told her about any masturbation incident with me. Ever,
well it was not a conversation we were gonna have
from that point forward.

Speaker 4 (56:29):
But all this so this is where I was getting,
like all of this stuff has like opened up, Like
I never even realized that that was my relationship with sex.
I didn't realize like how much I was like putting
off this thing for him to not feel comfortable with that,
and how much it was affecting our.

Speaker 5 (56:46):
Relationship because it really did.

Speaker 4 (56:49):
So like from all this happening, all this stuff happening,
it's like.

Speaker 5 (56:56):
We're starting to talk about.

Speaker 4 (56:58):
The things and like get a little bit deeper. That's
why I feel like it's like to the iceberg where
stuff is like spitting out a little bit because.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
I don't even know what the metaphor.

Speaker 4 (57:08):
Is because it's like deep enough. It's like there's the
iceberg maybe like halfway.

Speaker 7 (57:16):
It's like, you guys, much of the iceberg is still
under the water, like three court we'll say.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
Like.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
We'll say, I feel like you guys are thirteen years
into a marriage. Yeah, you hear how disconnected you guys
have been for the last thirteen years. You guys need
to start dating, Like your kids are old enough now
that you can actually start doing that, and you and like,
having conversations about traumatic experiences is fucking hard, and there's
a whole lot of fear of your partner not looking
at you the same way after they learn about all

(57:44):
your ugly. But after thirteen years, that ugly has been there,
and that ugly is destroying your relationship.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
And it's not just.

Speaker 9 (57:50):
Been there, you guys have now created some of it.

Speaker 5 (57:52):
Yeah, m hmm.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
There's there's a whole lot of conversations and learning each
other's past. It needs to happen. I have so much
that I want to touch on them and letting you
guys talk because I don't want to like stop the
flow of information. But he's still to go through, right, Well,
you guys, you clearly have You guys clearly have a
lot of shit that you need to work through. But
your communication is non existent and if you can't talk

(58:15):
to each other, this isn't going to work. And like,
there's things just in watching the two of you talk
to each other right now, there's nitpicky things that are
happening in casual conversation that has to stop. You can't
nitpick or poke while you guys are trying to have
a hard conversation because it's going to make the other
person shut down and he may not notice it right away,

(58:35):
but enough of that. Eventually we'll just make somebody stop talking.
The need versus one thing. I've been really fucking hung
up on that because in the beginning of this, he
did need you as a staple to deal with his
addiction and overcoming all of this. But he stayed because
he wants you. And there's so much more power in
being wanted than being needed, and there's a value in
that for yourself, and you need to take like an

(58:56):
ownership of that he fucking wants you because a position
that he's in now he could leave, He could have
left a long time ago, and he's still trying to
make things work. There's a value in you in his eyes,
and being wanted versus being needed is a big deal.
He doesn't need you anymore. He's still here and you're
still here because you guys want each other, and being
wanted is enough. You just have to do the work

(59:18):
now to correct all the misgivings that you've had the
entire time to move forward the sex thing with the
you know him. Not knowing the things that trigger you
in a negative manner during sex, or not remembering it
in the moment when you get hot and heavy, it
doesn't matter if you were reminded earlier in the day.

(59:39):
I have bit her sunburn in a moment of sexy
time and we were both sunburnt. She's like ah and
started crying in the middle of sex, Like that's not
a feel good moment that you want to talk about,
like disrupting the whole thing that was it. I fucking
knew she was sunburned. I put her fucking you know,
aloe on her earlier that day. I tasted it. But

(59:59):
you don't think about that in the moment. You're thinking
about trying ways to make your partner feel good about
what's happening in the moment, and there has to be
grace as those behavioral patterns are broken. I really think
you guys need to start dating. You guys need to
start with honest dates and talk about all of the

(01:00:21):
things that you're passionate about. I think that you need
to combine your finances. I think that you both need
to sit down on a weekly or bi weekly basis.
And bi weekly I mean twice a week, not every
other week. Because finances is the number one cause for divorce.
You can give all of these other things that statistically
show the reason for divorce, but when you look at
why those things happened, it always comes down to the

(01:00:41):
finances in a relationship and being a man, our job
is to protect and provide, and if we don't feel
like we're doing enough, sometimes that could just be a
knowledge thing. And he's working for the long term goal
and you're working for right now. And if you guys
work together, you have someone working right now and someone
working long term, you're gonna end up in a much
better place financially long term. But you'll be working as
a team. We are very much pillars of each other,

(01:01:06):
and we play to each other's strengths, but there's times
that you have to put your shield down. You can't
fucking battle all the time. You will get exhausted and
eventually your body will fail. That's where the partner comes
into play. You guys need to be able to lean
on each other and do that, but you have to
trust each other to do it. And that trust is
something that you guys have to build because of all
the betrayal that's happened, and it's happened from both sides.
He may have done what he did, but a lot
of the lack of communication and holding back on your part.

(01:01:29):
You guys have to build that all over again. It's
gonna take effort, but if you want each other and
not need each other, it's gonna be a whole lot
easier to do it because you want to be better.

Speaker 13 (01:01:41):
Umm, yeah, could you give me some of that pineapple?
Hey babe, Wait, thank you. I want to touch on
your fear of abandonment. Oh my eyeball.

Speaker 7 (01:01:58):
Just went so long.

Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
Huh went so it was like stuck, brother, what's happened?

Speaker 8 (01:02:06):
I'm sure it's circing. Something land in my eye and
it joke. Oh gosh, yes, stop it Like Wendy Williams
over here.

Speaker 9 (01:02:15):
Okay, so.

Speaker 8 (01:02:18):
Your fear of abandonment is going to lead to a
cycle of self sabotage. And I say that from experience,
I have ruined not just romantic relationships with that fear
of abandonment and clinging on while simultaneously pushing away and
putting up my guard while still craving love and then

(01:02:40):
blaming the person for not giving me the love that
I crave. But how are you going to get past
my projected spears and hounds who are going to tear
you apart if I allow you?

Speaker 14 (01:02:51):
In Right's combination like one of those dimension.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Ian simple?

Speaker 8 (01:03:08):
Is that still a thing for you? Is that something
that you're actively having to work against, that fear of
him leaving you?

Speaker 5 (01:03:17):
Yes, it has always been.

Speaker 4 (01:03:20):
I've gotten a lot better at different periods. Yeah, but
it's definitely something that is like a constant, non natural
thing that I have to like.

Speaker 9 (01:03:40):
Work on non natural. Why do you say non natural.

Speaker 4 (01:03:43):
Because it doesn't come like innately. I don't know how
that like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
What that looks like conscious about it will fall into
her natural is like pushing me away? Right, Yeah, so
you have to establish new behavior.

Speaker 11 (01:03:59):
I still don't understand like, h like everything, what were
we talking about where it's like you have evidence that
it works out and that like reinforces the faith that
that's gonna be the case, and like.

Speaker 4 (01:04:19):
I feel like I've had reinforcement of the opposite, and
I think that or just anybody like this is like.

Speaker 5 (01:04:27):
A fucking deep deep thing.

Speaker 4 (01:04:29):
Like my perspective of life as a five year old
was that, like you grow up like I've hated life,
Like I'm not about to kill myself right now, but
like I just have always felt like it was stupid,
Like I was like, why is my like being my
consciousness here when other people like there's so many other

(01:04:51):
people that want to be alive or be here, And
like I just think it's this cycle of pain where
you're born, you get close to people, they die, then
you die and calls all the people that loved you pain.

Speaker 5 (01:05:04):
Like that that is all I viewed it as.

Speaker 4 (01:05:07):
And I feel like I was a super sensitive kid,
and so in order to get away from that, it
was just like I just never want to love anybody again,
so I will never hurt as bad again.

Speaker 5 (01:05:18):
And then it was like because.

Speaker 4 (01:05:20):
And that's where that like defense came in, and then
it was like, well, everything's going to leave me, like always,
everything's going to leave me, so it's like unnatural for
me to.

Speaker 9 (01:05:32):
Like work against that. Yeah, Okay, a.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Little bit of backstorre too. So she was adopted at
like eight months old, so that was like four months old,
So there was like some sense of abandom in a
young age. Why did my original parents want me? You
know what I mean? Even though she had a very caring,
you know, family, very support you know, as well as
the raised her well and all that stuff. But I

(01:05:59):
think that's where why she was even thinking that way, right.

Speaker 9 (01:06:04):
Have you read? It didn't start with you.

Speaker 8 (01:06:07):
It's not by Mark Wahlberg, but that's the name that's
come into my mind.

Speaker 9 (01:06:13):
It didn't start with you.

Speaker 8 (01:06:14):
It talks about how trauma begins in the womb as
your mother is developing and your grandmother day. So your
grandmother is carrying a baby, and that baby, if it's
a female, is already carrying the eggs she's going to
have for the rest of her life in the womb.

Speaker 7 (01:06:36):
Yes, so our grandmother's carried us, so in your's eggs.

Speaker 9 (01:06:40):
Whatever trauma.

Speaker 8 (01:06:44):
Grandma went through, mom went through while you went through it,
and then everything your mom went through, you went through,
and your eggs that you carry hold on to it
and it's just a ongoing cycle.

Speaker 7 (01:06:57):
Yeah, they have proved, they have proven that trauma is
carried in DNA.

Speaker 8 (01:07:02):
They did a study with Holocaust survivors and their grandchildren
and the way that their brains work and stress levels
being released due to certain factors. So I would highly
recommend giving that book a read. I think that it
will help maybe open some doors for you into understanding
things a little bit better with inside of yourself and

(01:07:26):
with everything that you just said and the way that
you have felt since starting at five years old, would
you say that you still feel that way, Like there's
still that sense of why am I here?

Speaker 9 (01:07:37):
If somebody else can enjoy life better?

Speaker 5 (01:07:40):
That's another thing that comes and goes.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
I think it's still. I think it's a part of
processes with stuff.

Speaker 8 (01:07:50):
You're seeing that that that's not the case though, right,
Like you have a purpose of being here and people
get something from your presence and your love and tension.

Speaker 9 (01:08:01):
Not really you don't see that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:03):
No, And I feel bad for like my kids because
I can't give that to them and him.

Speaker 9 (01:08:09):
Not even just your children. Look at where you're at
right now and you're sitting next to your husband. He
would not be in this room if it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
For you, Like I so, I see even like we've
only been here for what twenty four hours at this point,
and I see her impact on people here. Yeah, in
a short people like she's makes an impression on people,
relates to them really quickly. I see that, and I
love her for that.

Speaker 9 (01:08:39):
It's a beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
She will hide away from people as much as she can.
And I'm like, you should be with people like you
love them in a way that you don't even see,
Like I mean connections with people and stuff. You know,
when if I was here alone, there would be some connection,
but we would just be talking about business and some

(01:09:01):
you know, outside thing. Like people see her very quickly
and relate to her on a deep emotional level. I've
seen that throughout her entire life. But she doesn't see
that at all. It's like non existent her. She didn't
see the value in that like I do. I guess.

Speaker 14 (01:09:19):
He actually also attributed all of these.

Speaker 13 (01:09:22):
Deep yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
I have told her about that. You may not have
acknowledged the financial stuff as much because that was a
hard thing for me. But I have acknowledged that she
was an integral part of me becoming the man that
I am. Like I had, I mean, I came from
a place where, like it was too difficult to put
on my shoes to go cop drugs because like I

(01:09:47):
was that sick. It was almost like animalistic type survival
life to like.

Speaker 6 (01:09:57):
Go and co.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
I mean like no, I mean yeah, in the long run,
but she gave me a foundation to start becoming the
man and she and by having my child, she gave
me the purpose, like he was my purpose to get
my life on track. But that was a gift from her,
you know what I mean. And like when I was

(01:10:22):
in the situation I was, I was facing eight years
in prison, you know, And She's like I'm pregnant, and
every grain in my body was like we shouldn't have
this child. I don't I don't know if I can
be in his life. And like the original conversation we had,
she was like this is the first blood relative that
I'll ever have known, and I couldn't take that away

(01:10:44):
from her. And I was like from that point forward,
it was like, Okay, if I don't have a way
out of this, I'm gonna be the best of this
that I can be, you know, and then that was
like the precipice of change for my life, Like I
got clean for me, but also so I could be
the father that and the husband ultimately that I would
have wanted in my life. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
So a couple of things. Your perspective has to shift.
It's gonna have to in order for you to find
true joy in life. You're gonna have to learn to
change your mind yourself and learn and learn to love yourself. Because,
like she said, because the microphone didn't pick it up,
so I'm going to re reiterate it, he changed who

(01:11:31):
he was because of you. There's your value in the world.
And if he's leading your household and raising young people
to be good people and is providing with a blood
family that you've never had before, he's doing it because
of what he sees in you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
Like you guys need.

Speaker 2 (01:11:46):
To believe in each other, and she clearly believes in you.
If she didn't believe in you, in your your capability
and who you are, she wouldn't have stayed past that
first child, Like and there's there's your your moments of
reminder like that she loves you because she's here still.
You guys have a lot of trauma that needs to
be worked through that that has nothing to do with
each other, but you can't take that out on each other.

(01:12:06):
And those are the conversations of I'm having a really
hard moment right now where that just triggered this thought
and I need to work through it, not don't fucking
touch me, or you know, you know, I'm a piece
of shit because I can't pay the rent. You know
what I mean, Like you can't.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
Yeah, it's it's And then that's where it does really
really boil down to communication because it's like if I'm
feeling not validated, like I feel like I need to
be by her, instead of knowing how to communicate that
if it comes out in like resentment or anger or
like you know, different just detachment in general, rather than

(01:12:44):
me just being able to have a simple conversation. But
like more recently, because of some of these breakthroughs that
we're touching on now, I feel like it can be
an easier thing to communicate because now it's understood that like, hey,
like I'm feeling this way again, you know, and it
not being a hopefully not being a personal or taken

(01:13:07):
as a personal attack. But in times before when I
would try to communicate it, I didn't have that understanding
to identify where else it could be coming from, So
it just came out as an attack towards her. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Well, that's the difference between Anye versus you. Statement I
feel like is very different than you make me feel like.
So I would that needs to be something that you
guys need to work on, and then repairing after conflict
needs to be worked on too. What do you guys
got going on right now that you guys are trying
to work through? Because what you guys brought up a
whole lot of shit that's happened over the last thirteen years,

(01:13:39):
that stuff that needs to be forgiven and not drudged
up and a like taking shots at each other, but
only drudged up in a moment of this just happened.
It made me think about and I'll get over it.
I just want you to know where I'm feeling right now.
So what do you guys got going right now that
you're working through?

Speaker 1 (01:13:57):
I mean, I don't want to speak for her, but
the challenge that we've I've been facing this recently is
with her history or track record I'll say of not
being able to let go of stuff and the incident
that happened with me and the escort, and she's saying

(01:14:19):
out loud that she wants to work through that, she
wants to stay together, Like I have a hard time
trusting that, like as being fact, Like does that mean
like it could mean two things really, like this is
something we heal from and develop from, and it's never
really brought up in a negative way again in a

(01:14:42):
sense like as an attack, or it can be something
that like every time I leave the house, you're like,
where are you going? What are you up to? Questioning
and like not trusting, right, which are both valid, right,
Like she has every reason not to trust me, but
that's not a life that I want to live, like
and then so get ahead, So get ahead of it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:05):
And that's what I don't ever go anywhere that'll tell her,
tell her where I'm leaving, like I don't. She knows
where I'm at at all times, like, and that's not
a I did anything wrong, it's just I'm going to
the store.

Speaker 1 (01:15:14):
I'm going to do that well, And it's also but
she has to trust that you're saying what you're that
you're actually doing what you're saying, right, like, and so
there's you know, the whole reason she found out in
the first place was because she was going through messages
in my phone or my iPad. Was seemingly not a
whole lot of reason to do that. There wasn't like

(01:15:37):
it was kind of on a whim that she was doing.

Speaker 8 (01:15:39):
That, but wh Yeah, what was it on a whim?
Or did you have an intuition that something was happening
and you want.

Speaker 15 (01:15:46):
To well, I feel like she had intuition probably, yeah, yeah,
but it was It's weird because there's been times like
early early on in our relationship it was like an obsession,
like I know he's doing something and.

Speaker 9 (01:16:00):
Was he doing something?

Speaker 5 (01:16:02):
No?

Speaker 8 (01:16:03):
Okay, so that's until right, well it.

Speaker 4 (01:16:07):
Was like the drugs and stuff like that, like when
he relapsed. Yeah, but like so there's like but it
was mostly from old relationships. But then it got to
the point where it's like it doesn't make any sense,
and he made it real clear. He's like, you can
turn anything into a crazy thing out of context, and
you can also like worry yourself so much that you're

(01:16:30):
crazy and then ultimately, like if I really did not
want to be in the relationship, then I wouldn't like
or if something really was happening, it would come out eventually,
but anyway, but for this time, it's like I wasn't
in that mental space.

Speaker 5 (01:16:44):
It's just like.

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):
Hit.

Speaker 4 (01:16:47):
My daughter uses his iPad and it dinged, and I
was like, huh, I should look at that, and that
was it.

Speaker 5 (01:16:53):
Like I wasn't even it.

Speaker 4 (01:16:56):
I don't know, Okay, call it intuition or call it whatever,
I don't know.

Speaker 9 (01:17:00):
But so I have another question. He said that.

Speaker 8 (01:17:08):
Things get brought back up in a negative context. So
are you doing this to create arguments? Are you doing
this because you're just regulated? Are you trying to seek reassurance?
And it starts an argument?

Speaker 5 (01:17:22):
So and this is where like.

Speaker 4 (01:17:28):
The dad and mom stuff in a second comes in
because his dad and mom stuff. Because if there's any
questions or anything that I'm feeling, even if it's not
a negative thing, but it's just like, like, what was.

Speaker 5 (01:17:46):
It the other day in the car? Well that's what yeah, So.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
Like it came up actually on our way here from
the airport a few days back or a week or
so back, there was an instance where we were trying
to have sex. I wasn't able to stay hard, you know,
and she felt like naturally like she was unattractive or

(01:18:16):
something from that.

Speaker 9 (01:18:17):
Okay, but then.

Speaker 1 (01:18:19):
When she brought that up, it was also tied to like,
but you were able to get hard for this person?

Speaker 9 (01:18:25):
Was that said yeah, pretty much. Okay, so I'm gonna pause.

Speaker 5 (01:18:29):
It not in a bad way, but it's like, right, no, so.

Speaker 9 (01:18:33):
I'm gonna positive conversation.

Speaker 8 (01:18:35):
So already there there's already some type of stressor going
on because there's issues with performance and which which led
to an insecurity, which is completely normal all the time.
If something happens wasn't me no today was whatever, I'm
having a hard mental day, and then that stand of

(01:18:56):
the conversation because life is fucking difficult and we're not
gonna have four seven.

Speaker 9 (01:19:02):
The continuing past right now. If saying.

Speaker 8 (01:19:10):
I feel like I'm unattractive because that happened, he gave reassurance,
and you said, Okay, I'm just having a hard time
right now processing that because I'm feeling insecure due to
the infidelity in the past. That could lead to a
conversation of you need to be soothed in the moment,

(01:19:31):
and if that leads to a conversation of his day
and the demons that are attacking him leading to the
performance issues. Fantastic that comment though, of you could stay
hard for whatever, no matter how it was meant. I'm
sure in the moment he already felt emasculated, he wasn't
able to perform for his woman. I'm sure he was

(01:19:53):
already anxious that things were gonna get brought up.

Speaker 9 (01:19:57):
And then it did.

Speaker 8 (01:20:00):
So what was the context of you saying what you said?

Speaker 9 (01:20:04):
And what did you say?

Speaker 4 (01:20:06):
So like that happened and then I kind of like
backed down like that. I didn't bring it up then
because it's just like.

Speaker 1 (01:20:20):
The conversation exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:20:25):
But I'm getting there all.

Speaker 8 (01:20:27):
Right, So it couldn't play out. You guys are laying
next to each other now.

Speaker 5 (01:20:31):
Right, No, that's not when the conversation happened.

Speaker 8 (01:20:34):
So how did the silence break from Well it didn't,
So it broke because of a different thing.

Speaker 4 (01:20:42):
So that happened, and then we didn't have like I
wasn't pursuing him anymore as much. And then later it
was like a comment he made it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:57):
About like I was like because over the last few weeks,
in the effort to try to get things fired back
up with us and stuff like that. There was a
lot of intimacy happening sex more times, like more in
one day, like more times than once in a day
at times. And then but it was a lot of
her like kind of chasing me, like you know, jumping

(01:21:20):
my bones basically, and then like it was fizzling out.
Since I've moved back in, I noticed the gradual fizzling out,
and my best effort, which was pathetic at best, but
was to make a passive aggressive comment about it, joke
you know about it, and like what I said verbatim

(01:21:40):
was remember that time. I remember when you used to
like want me, you know, or whatever, and now you're
not like that kind of thing.

Speaker 9 (01:21:47):
So this was after the failed attempt of trying.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
To that was yeah, yeah, it was kind of yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:21:54):
Okay, But so did you mean it to be passive
aggressive or are you trying to make a joke to
break the ice?

Speaker 1 (01:21:59):
I felt like I was trying. I didn't have a
better way to communicate that, like things are fizzling out, right,
And so that was my mechanism to do that in
a joking light, in a trying to lighten it, because
I don't want every conversation around it to be this
huge heavy thing because it's like, I'm not going to

(01:22:19):
leave you because you don't like pursue me in a
three day spin like that's not so like. In an
effort to make it a lighter thing, I brought it
up as a joke, which came across as a passive
aggressive joke. And then her reasoning for not wanting to
pursue me was because of feeling unattractive of the instance

(01:22:41):
where I wasn't getting hard that day, and then that
led that led to the conversation we were having, and it
was interesting you brought that up, like about the anxieties
or whatever I was having, because that's exactly where the
cover where I took the conversation was, like, no, I
had all this stuff going on that day, and I
was mad at myself that I couldn't perform because I

(01:23:02):
knew I was in this fucked up mental head space,
you know, and so like I was all messed up
over it too. I was even sharing with a friend
that that instance that it happened and how messed up
I was. Of course she doesn't see that, you know.

Speaker 8 (01:23:16):
So she doesn't see doesn't see her having a hard time,
or doesn't see the text messages.

Speaker 1 (01:23:22):
The conversation with a friend wasn't was her present, so
she doesn't see that. I'm like trying to work out
my side.

Speaker 9 (01:23:29):
So why wouldn't you bring her into that loop?

Speaker 12 (01:23:35):
There's a whole lot.

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
Of talking to other people and a whole lot of
not talking.

Speaker 16 (01:23:37):
To each other.

Speaker 8 (01:23:39):
Yeah, so yeah, do you guys, do you guys see
the dots that are being connected?

Speaker 5 (01:23:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (01:23:45):
Right, So like you were already having a hard day
when you needed an outlet of somebody to talk to.
Instead of going to your wife, you went to a friend,
and then there was disconnection for their disconnect, yes, my
husband said, further disconnect, and then there was the attempts. Right,

(01:24:07):
so you had no idea that he was going through
this time. And from what it sounds like, that is
an abnormal thing for you to do, to try to
exert love physically that way, right? Does that sound accurate
for both of you?

Speaker 13 (01:24:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:24:24):
Yeah, I mean that hasn't been a normal thing in
our relationship. Okay, so usually I'm the one pursuing, right, you.

Speaker 8 (01:24:31):
Know, so the day she's trying is like the worst
day for your mentally Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:24:36):
Okay, Well, and I actually was pursuing her that morning
as well, like she was in bed kind of like
when like snuggled with her. You know, things went the
way they did, and then but I was still in
this headspace, so things didn't work out. And you know,
within a few days after that is when I had

(01:24:57):
made the comment. And then a few days after that
is when we were having the conversation out there playing round.
Just I'm trying to like lay out the timeline because
it's okay, distorted.

Speaker 10 (01:25:08):
I am.

Speaker 8 (01:25:09):
I'm a little bit confused. Now, Okay, so you had
a bad day.

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
I was having a bad stretch of days.

Speaker 8 (01:25:16):
Bad stretch of days. You guys, try to be intimate.
There's performance issues. That was all the same day, right.

Speaker 1 (01:25:23):
Like, but so like in the last two weeks I
had been the like, so I moved it back in
like three weeks ago Memorial Day weekend basically, and so
I had noticed a trend of less and less of
her and the one to initiate, and that was kind
of leading to where I had made that comment.

Speaker 4 (01:25:45):
But I also started a new job, and so like
this is the stuff, like like at the end of
the day, like we do get there eventually, and I
think that that's the only reason why we have it,
because we like what we want in a relationship is
to be like each other's safe space and be the

(01:26:06):
one that we call when we're going through stuff. But again,
that's gonna take that's taking a lot of work. But
like for me, when this is all happening, when I'm
pursuing him and like that happened where like it wasn't
he was in the space, he wasn't able to get
hard or whatever, and then I'm working again and that's

(01:26:27):
another reason why we're not getting it in every day.
And then he feels like this is just going back
to to what we were what has been the problem
every time, And I knew that this was just fake
and why are we even doing this before it gets
to that point of like, ye, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
If I would have described it like.

Speaker 2 (01:26:52):
That, Yeah, but important because if that's important to know,
because if that's not what he said and that's what
you heard, that's a problem with your communication as well.

Speaker 1 (01:27:01):
Well. I have so in the conversations of us deciding
to move forward or not with the relationship after everything unfolded,
one of my concerns was that you know that I
had two fears. One, we just fall back into the
same old, same old, which has been unacceptable really for
us to keep going that way or be The other

(01:27:23):
fear was that it would get worse in the sense
of the distrust and everything because of my actions. So
not only would it be disconnected and non intimate, but
now you're also going to be questioning everything I do
and blah blah blah blah blah. So like, if either
of those was the option, I was like, I'd rather
be out because I've been living in this cycle for
long enough at this point. So we either basically we

(01:27:46):
need to like dive in and figure out a way
to change this or go in separate ways or less.
At that point, that's when that conversation kind out. So
I have voiced it in that way, but not in
this scenario that we're talking about now.

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
So a second ago, you said that you guys always
end up getting there eventually, but it takes a whole
lot to get to the point of coming to an understanding,
and you're trying to build that trust again during that timeframe,
you guys are popping shots at each other.

Speaker 5 (01:28:16):
Well, this whole conversation was like a car ride.

Speaker 4 (01:28:20):
So it's like what he did one thing where he's
like the machine wasn't working and he's like, it couldn't
be more clear, this is how the machine works. And
so I took it as like that made me sad
because I feel like like it makes it feel like
I'm the one that's wrong, not the machine, because it

(01:28:40):
was like the machine couldn't say it more clearly. And
then it got brought up like these are the things
like that make me ask you if you're grumpy because
I feel like you're grumpy.

Speaker 5 (01:28:49):
So let's talk about you, right.

Speaker 2 (01:28:50):
Because he took a shot at you. Yeah, the machine
couldn't it couldn't meany more clear. That's like what part
of this don't you understand?

Speaker 4 (01:28:55):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
So that's what I was getting at. You guys are
taking shots at each other, and I don't think intentional.
I think that you're just frustrated in the moment. And
this is thirteen years. If you guys knowing each other,
there's expectations that's supposed to be had of you guys,
like you know, you know each other's intelligence, you know
each other's weaknesses and strengths. So when something like that
that is so minuscule doesn't like convey there's a frustration

(01:29:17):
that happens. There needs to be a tongue biting that
happens in the process as well, because you can't do
that to your person. And if you guys are trying
to rebuild a relationship and trust, the pop and shots
at each other in conflict is not going to get
you there. There needs to be very clear this is
what I'm feeling, and this is what I need to
work through, and then you guys need to have a
conversation about it, and it needs to come from a
place of I want to be better, not you know,

(01:29:39):
fuck you for this, right. So, there was a moment
ago where you said that we had asked she had
asked a question, and it went back to this is
where his mom and dad come in. And then you
had said something and what you had said had nothing
to do with his mom and his dad, and we
waited too long for me to get there, and I
forgot what it was that you said, But it was

(01:30:00):
you basically taking the accountability from what you were saying
to him and blaming it on his parents when it
was the way that you were worrying. The conversation just
like him saying the machine couldn't be any more clear.
It's the way he's wording the conversation that makes you
feel the way you feel. You guys are going to
have to find those triggers, and that's what's going to
have to start getting danced around. It's not hard to
learn how to communicate, you just actually have to do

(01:30:21):
the work to do the communication. And sometimes there's like
I said earlier, there's grace that has to happen. If
you go, wait a minute, I don't like the way
that that came across. Can you rephrase that? That's your
grace giving him the opportunity to correct instead of firing back.
Because sometimes we say shit and don't realize that what
we said may have come across differently to your ears
than the way that we admitt it.

Speaker 5 (01:30:43):
And that's what we're.

Speaker 2 (01:30:44):
Don't look at me like that.

Speaker 4 (01:30:45):
That's where we're at working on because it's like when
that conversation opened up, like when you said it, then
this is how it made me feel. Then it blew up,
like what has happening is that, like it blew up
into this big thing and then it's like wait, wait, wait,
let's bring it back what we're trot The goal is

(01:31:05):
is to say this is what hurt my feelings, how
can we change it? Or like, how can I show
you love when you're feeling this way?

Speaker 2 (01:31:13):
What do you need from me? Right now?

Speaker 5 (01:31:15):
Right? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:31:16):
So yeah, that's how it eventually gets there. And it's
a short period of time. This is like a thirty
minute time span of like we go from like everything's
fine to like we're gonna fucking blow up Florida to like,
oh yeah, we love each other.

Speaker 2 (01:31:29):
Like it shouldn't get to the blowing up Florida parto, right,
And the more you guys learn how to communicate around
each other's triggers, the less that becomes a thing. But
there's got to be grace there, and you have to
pause in the moment and be like, why did you
say it that way? This is what I heard? Is
that what you meant? Clarifying statements and probing changes things,
because if you get hung up on something and he

(01:31:49):
continues talking or vice versa, one of you is still
hung up. It's like me getting hung up on that
one versus neat thing. I sat here for forty five
minutes holding that to have that conversation, right, because she
had questions and I didn't want to interrupt. But that's
a thing for us. A lot of people will get
hung up on one specific thing in a conversation and
until that thing gets resolved, the rest of the conversation
is not happening because we're still stuck on something. That's

(01:32:11):
why she looked at me like that.

Speaker 9 (01:32:13):
I bet, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (01:32:14):
I looked over and you're just staring like that.

Speaker 8 (01:32:18):
Shit, what the saying something that's not hitting my ear right? Yes,
that's exactly what I was working up. It's to the
point now where will be somewhere and he'll say something
and we'll continue on and we'll get in the car
and I'll look at him be like I didn't like that,
and he's like, I know I said it, And I
looked at you and I knew that's it.

Speaker 9 (01:32:40):
That's the endother conversation.

Speaker 7 (01:32:42):
So I have a timeline question. You said you just
moved back in three weeks ago.

Speaker 5 (01:32:51):
What did you guys book this? I think the Night Well,
the Hail Mary Well, what is funny?

Speaker 1 (01:33:00):
Individual therapy too. Yeah, And then when we were in
the process of talking about working out the relationship, it
had come up about maybe trying some couples retreat things
because I had thought about it in the past. She
you know, she brought it up. And then in that
time I had also introduced her to their podcast, and

(01:33:21):
then full circle she found out that they had Yeah,
we're having this event, and we were like, I mean,
it was kind of like should it go go, let's
just go.

Speaker 7 (01:33:30):
You know, and that so that enough is did she
bring it up or did you bring this retreat up?

Speaker 1 (01:33:38):
She brought this retreat up yet, so.

Speaker 7 (01:33:41):
In the thick of what is going on and like like,
this is not cheap, and this is not comfortable, and
this is people you don't know in a group of
me sort of session that shows both of you, like,
this is hard work and you're willing to do the work,
so don't discount that. And when you're doing your shots

(01:34:01):
at each other and it's like, oh, they don't really
care about me.

Speaker 5 (01:34:03):
Know, we're you're working.

Speaker 7 (01:34:06):
This is really hard work that you're both willing to
do for each other to save your marriage. And if
you both didn't want to save your marriage, you actually
wouldn't have gotten on an airplane from Maryland come have
your ball sweat in Florida.

Speaker 5 (01:34:18):
With you you don't know.

Speaker 8 (01:34:21):
You continue with conversation. We cannot call this therapy. We
can't say this is like therapy. We can't say this
is a kin to therapy that.

Speaker 9 (01:34:28):
She lives like therapy.

Speaker 7 (01:34:29):
We are eating cheese and talking about our problems.

Speaker 8 (01:34:32):
This is group sharing, group sharing, holding space for people.

Speaker 10 (01:34:36):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:34:38):
Well, the funny thing is is that we especially know
the power of that because our whole recovery and getting
clean off of drugs is from groups of people that
literally just all have the same problems. There's not a
therapist insight, you know. So this is actually, in the
scheme of things, a comfortable situation for us, not so

(01:35:00):
much putting both of our stuff out on this plateau.
But and then to tie it back to like and
I realized that the behavior can be damaging. But I
do go to my network before I bring things to her,
because that's what I've been taught in recovery, because like,
my first thought is wrong generally, you know.

Speaker 8 (01:35:20):
What do you mean your first thoughts wrong, Like you
have incorrect data or.

Speaker 1 (01:35:26):
Just to like blow shit up, destroy shit, used, I
kill myself whatever, right, So, like that's why we we
drill it into our own heads and recovery, Like first
thoughts wrong, So don't do that. Sit for a minute,
think about another option. Talk to someone, you know what
I mean. This is how we prevent ourselves from using right,
who do you talk to? Who is that person that
you talk to? So I have a sponsor, and I

(01:35:48):
have a group of like five or six men that
are all very intimately intertwined into my network where I
would go to and so, And it has been a
it has been an issue in our relationship in a
sense because like when something comes up, I take it
to I run it through the sifter and like, because
the first thing I want to tell her is going

(01:36:09):
to be very damaging. So then like I I and
then by the time I bring it back to her,
I've gotten a better version, reduced down. But to her
it comes across like you've already come to a conclusion
on this, Like especially when it's a decision making thing, okay,
and to some degree she's not wrong. Like by the
time I've run it through there, I'm like, Okay, this

(01:36:31):
is the answer. And then I'm bringing that to her
and she hasn't had a chance to like process it
with me or vice versa. It can happen both ways,
but I'm more active in my network probably, I would.

Speaker 9 (01:36:43):
Say, how long have you been in that network?

Speaker 12 (01:36:45):
For?

Speaker 9 (01:36:45):
How long has that been?

Speaker 1 (01:36:46):
Also twelve years I've been cleaned so but.

Speaker 8 (01:36:48):
And you've been together for thirteen years. Yeah, so pretty
much your entire relationship. This is how you functioned emotionally.

Speaker 1 (01:36:54):
This is how I've handled everything here, because like in
my world, if I don't do that, when I rely
on my own decision making, it's usually off track. Of course,
it's not.

Speaker 9 (01:37:05):
Just your decision making. You'll be talking to your wife.

Speaker 1 (01:37:08):
No I know, but I mean, like, okay, she does
she says something, you know, Like for example, in that
moment when she brought up the escort thing as an attack,
my first thought is like, fuck this trip, Fuck Florida.
I'm going home and packing. We're done, Like I'm out.
That's first thought. Yeah, I first thought, wrong, right, And

(01:37:30):
it's like, you know, in an instance where we're not
in a car ride to an event together, I would
then call my sponsor and be like, this is what
she said. This is how it made me feel, Like
how should I bring this up to her? You know
what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:37:46):
This is what I just heard. This is how it
made me feel, or this is an opportunity for you
to rephrase that.

Speaker 1 (01:37:52):
Yeah, no, I'm one hundred percent like I'm learning that
and understanding that. But that's like that's been. I'm just
trying to lay out like what my has been, you
know what I mean. And so then by the time
then also through that process, I'm deciding if it's even
something that's worth bringing up.

Speaker 2 (01:38:07):
Everything is worth bringing up. If something makes you feel
in a way that you don't like the way that
it made you feel, it needs to be brought up, period.
Because you two are supposed to be in this one
flesh for the rest of eternity. So if you can't
come to her with the things that make you unhappy,
that's a huge fucking problem. And that says a little
bit about the way that you respond to things and
a whole lot about your security in the marriage. I

(01:38:29):
have no problem telling her I don't like something. That
was a smoke detector. Things are about to get real.
Hood in this bitch, did it? It means batteries need
to be changed. That just derailed my entire train of thought.

(01:38:50):
I apologize, it's gone, It's gone gone.

Speaker 9 (01:38:58):
No, it was such a good thought. I was ticking
backing off of it. I don't remember security in the
relationship one flash.

Speaker 1 (01:39:13):
I mean by not I know, by not having these conversations,
it's caused a disconnect and are you know, like us
processing the things together. And then I guess, like the
reason I there are things that I do or don't
bring up like I've decided, is also because of like
past trauma with trying to bring things up and getting explosions.

(01:39:34):
Well it is.

Speaker 2 (01:39:36):
So what I was going to say was with the
going to your group first, you are removing the opportunity
for her to serve you and to be able to
problem solve the things together. If you're going to a
group of five other guys or your sponsor and they're like,
this is what you need, and you go back to
her and you're like, this is what I need. You
guys didn't have the conversation of how you got to
what you need. You're basically just telling her what to do,

(01:39:57):
and you guys need to have that back and forth
and come to a solution together so that you're on
the same understanding of why, and that matters.

Speaker 8 (01:40:05):
I also want to touch on it could be conversations
about what you guys need together. While it was being explained,
you almost interjected and said something about how you feel
like decisions are coming to you already made. And I
interpreted that as it could be decisions about his own
internal life, or.

Speaker 9 (01:40:26):
It could be.

Speaker 8 (01:40:28):
What next car you guys are getting, like something that
impacts the both of you in a way.

Speaker 9 (01:40:32):
Is that inaccurate?

Speaker 5 (01:40:33):
No, that's accurate.

Speaker 9 (01:40:34):
Okay, So.

Speaker 8 (01:40:38):
That would make me feel like I am not important? Yeah, right,
And that's not in the whole sense of your life,
but when it comes to decision making on things or
just being in the loop of what's going on with
my husband, I would feel less important than the other
people who are coming before me in then, No, right,

(01:41:00):
And I'm not saying that in a shitty manner. No,
I understand that this is how you've done it for
over a decade, So like.

Speaker 1 (01:41:07):
Not to cut you off like it's almost been the
belief has been backwards to me, like I want to
screen this out and make sure I'm bringing you the best.

Speaker 8 (01:41:16):
Information I can, right, And I see it from that
perspective too, And I can see how as a husband
you don't want to bring more to your wife's plate
that will overstress her.

Speaker 1 (01:41:25):
Yeah, because I can be dramatic, right, I can like
make everything a deal. Yeah, you know what I mean.
So I have to like they're like my sounding board
to be like, is this something that's even valid like
that I should be bringing up? But I have every
little feeling I have. If I acted on every little
feeling I have, I wouldn't be sitting.

Speaker 9 (01:41:42):
Here or brought it up.

Speaker 1 (01:41:44):
That community has kept me from going back to my
old ways time and time again. So it's like it's
tried and true in that area. It's just like realizing
that it's a separate thing, like the marriage can't operate
that way, you know what I mean. But it's just
a tool. That's like I have so much faith in
that tool that like I'm like, yeah, this fucking works

(01:42:04):
for everything. Every business decision I make, every friendship decision
I make, someone should be in my life, should be
in my life. You know, all the way through to
my marriage and my kids all runs through that same network,

Speaker 8 (01:42:18):
So it's like, do you see how that takes away
your sense of self and your own decision making, not
not completely, but everything in your life being run through
a filter of other people, it removes more and more
of your wants, your opinions.

Speaker 1 (01:42:33):
Desires, and I do see that, and and there's.

Speaker 9 (01:42:37):
Also a lack of trust and self I want to
say that too.

Speaker 1 (01:42:40):
Yeah and fair. The network that I use is also
aware of this, saying like we all do this, so
it's like we're all aware. So like most of their
impact is trying to guide me to what I really want,
right you know what I mean, Like they're not there
trying to give me their opinions because they're I don't
want to say trained, but sort of trained in this
art of how to work through together. So their guidance

(01:43:02):
is like what you're doing right now is like trying
to guide me to what I would really want or
what seeing the core of the problem, you know what
I mean. So that's what they're trying to do in
that therapy not therapy type thing, you know what I mean,
therapeutic environment, I'll say, so, I guess, like I can

(01:43:22):
see where you're saying, like it could delude what my
initial thoughts and wants and needs are, but also there
they are helping me dig through because there's like, of
course there's the surface level stuff of like oh she
said this, How dare her to like why did that
really hurt me? To, like, you know, is that something
that's her fault at all? And then whether I should

(01:43:45):
even bring it up is determined by if it's something
that she has an impact over, Like if this is
a thing that I dealt with from my father, then
like it's not like her saying that wasn't really the issue, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:43:59):
Still a problem because if you don't bring it to
her and it is an issue with your father, she
doesn't know about it. So if it happens again and
you get butt hurt and you start behaving differently, she
has no idea what's going on. Like those are things
that you're supposed to go to your person for so
they understand the process of what's happening. That's what I
was saying a minute ago. You guys have to lean

(01:44:19):
on each other. And if she says something to you
and it makes you feel a certain way, regardless of
it whether or not it's her fault, she needs to know,
like that's not okay if you know what I mean,
Like you were going to accept different things from different
people as well, Like you know, I might say the
exact same thing that she would have said, and you
may take it differently from me because of my tone
or because I have no stake in your life and
she's your wife, it's a very different scenario. So like

(01:44:42):
having the conversations of why did you say that that way?
I don't like the way that made me feel, it
gives her the opportunity to correct the behavior or for
you to be like, I don't know why it made
me feel that way, and then later on be like, well,
my dad did that shit, and now I realize that
that's my dad talking out of your mouth and it
really bothers me. Can we find new ways to communicate
so that doesn't happen. She's not responsible for your triggers,

(01:45:03):
but if she's not aware of your trigger she can
never sidestep them. She's gonna be a trip wire constantly,

Speaker 1 (01:45:08):
And to your point, like when we're in a good space,
I would bring all that information back to her, like
like now I say, like you said this, it bothered me,
but I've realized. But just leaving her out of that process,
I guess, yeah, you know, I'm not taking away from that.
But like when we're in a good communication space, I
would be like, hey, look, you know, I see now

(01:45:30):
why that bothered me. Blah blah blah, this, that and
the other. But the other people in my life are
will help me come to that conclusion rather than her.
But when we're not in a good space, there's no
follow up communication, Like there's no like, it's just like
you hurt me, Fuck you. I take it to my network.
I never say anything to her. However, the resentment, well.

Speaker 4 (01:45:50):
That's how like all this and like I like that
the points being made that like, because this is what
the core of our relationship problems is is that we
aren't that sounding bored for each other, and that's created
this disconnect of our relationship of us two living two

(01:46:13):
very separate lives, you know, and it's like, well, you
don't respect my decisions. Well I'm not a part of
your decision making.

Speaker 1 (01:46:19):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:46:20):
And if I ask you what do you want and
you're like, I don't care. Whatever makes you happy, and
then you're mad at me five years later because it
was all like what I did, but he was doing that.
You try to be nice, but like you're saying, like
I don't know what all the triggers are, and he
like sounds it off, but I feel like just as
much as his like network has proven to be like good, like,

(01:46:44):
I feel like my reactions have also been pretty fucking
good as far as like being able to bring stuff
and be honest with stuff.

Speaker 9 (01:46:56):
Are you reacting or are you responding.

Speaker 5 (01:46:59):
Right now?

Speaker 9 (01:47:01):
I would say within the last says stuff month.

Speaker 5 (01:47:07):
I think.

Speaker 4 (01:47:11):
Responding like hearing things and like like not out of
whatever he's coming with, like when he's if he like
he was really upset in the car, and then it's
like wait, wait, wait, like.

Speaker 5 (01:47:27):
What this is.

Speaker 4 (01:47:28):
What we're here for is to like work out some
of this stuff, and like the thing about this is
like bringing that up wasn't an attack. It was like
this is what it reminded me of. And this is
why it makes me feel so vulnerable because what I'm
receiving is that like you're attracted to this and you're
not attracted to me or whatever, and so bringing it

(01:47:51):
back to like I wasn't attacking you in that moment,
and like this is what it is, and then being
able to have the conversation the whole full circle, as
messy as it is, like that's what I need. I want,
That's what I want. I think that's what he wants
to So it's like, like working on.

Speaker 2 (01:48:11):
When you were in the car, did you say it
the way that you just worded it to us? So
you were telling him how he felt instead of asking
him how.

Speaker 5 (01:48:18):
He felt, Well, what do you mean.

Speaker 1 (01:48:21):
You just told him how he felt?

Speaker 2 (01:48:23):
The way that you explained the escort thing was all
about your interpretation of things and not asking him his interpretation.
So you guys, aren't You're not. You're you're projecting all
of your ship onto him and he's having to eat
shit because of it. Granted, he did what he did,
and there's gonna be shit that's in the process. But yeah,
but you're are you attracted to that and that's why

(01:48:43):
you're doing that's very different than you are attracted to that?
And I'm not ship right, So how you is this?
This is vernacular? This matters.

Speaker 1 (01:48:51):
I brought that up from the conversation because the way
I actually said it to her, I was like, you've
already created this narrative that that had something to do
with the escort. That's unconnected. I was like, really, there's
this whole other thing about how I was angry and
miserable about this other situation in my life that was
not allowing me to perform in that moment, you know
what I mean. But you made it about this escort.

(01:49:13):
That's a whole other narrative that you built, and never
once was I asked like why that happened? Like that
would have been probably the better way it was, be
like why why weren't you able to perform this morning?
You know?

Speaker 5 (01:49:27):
Right?

Speaker 13 (01:49:29):
Was this?

Speaker 8 (01:49:29):
So would that have happened after your passive aggressive comment
per having this conversation?

Speaker 5 (01:49:35):
Yeah, okay, so I guess what I'm getting at.

Speaker 4 (01:49:40):
I brought that up because, like I, well, I want
the messy part, Like I need the messy part because
that's what makes me feel close to you. I don't
want the filtered part because I don't know what you
want and what you don't want, and what you like

(01:50:02):
and what you don't like, you know what I mean,
And all these other people know all that stuff about
you or like whatever, and I don't. So like, one
of the things we're working on in therapy or that
I think would be beneficial is to like, how can
I give me three things that like I can do
to show you that I love you today? And not

(01:50:24):
like what do you need me to do, but like,
I want to make you happy? So how can I
do that today? Because every day's going to be different, right, and.

Speaker 6 (01:50:33):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:50:34):
So it's just like getting there without causing too much pain,
and like how to let go of thirteen years of
mess to be able to do that without it being
like anytimes, like being able to have the past affect
how we feel, but also not be doing it, Like
it's never my intention or his intention.

Speaker 5 (01:50:55):
I don't think.

Speaker 4 (01:50:58):
To like be hurting somebody by bringing up a past experience,
but that past experience, even if it's not getting thrown
in somebody's face, is like impacting what I'm feeling right
in this moment, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (01:51:14):
So how do you get okay?

Speaker 8 (01:51:16):
So there's a couple of things that I want to
touch on. Short answer, don't don't forget that. I want
you to hold on to that because I want to
touch on something with you real quick. So going back
to the passive aggressive comment that was made about remember
when you used to want me or however that was phrased,
was that you not going to your network and saying

(01:51:36):
something out loud, unfiltered.

Speaker 1 (01:51:38):
Yeah, I hadn't I've been, whether consciously or not consciously,
I have been using my network for our marriage less
in the process of us trying to heal this stuff,
because like we, you know, especially when I was out
of the house, we were spending hours on the phone
talking through all this stuff in the nights that I

(01:52:01):
wasn't there. Even though we were separated physically, we were
like actually reconnecting a lot more on like the intimate
conversation level. But through all that, Like at this point,
part of it's just because I feel like my network's
tired of hearing about my relationship, so like I kind

(01:52:21):
of stopped bringing it up, you know. But also I
didn't want their influence over this, and like I you know,
to your point, like I didn't want like I wanted
to get if it was like if it was gonna work,
I wanted to work because it worked because of us,
like because of us working through it. So I stopped.

(01:52:42):
I won't say I stopped completely. It was a lot
less of taking things to the network. First. I was
still reporting to them on some things that were happening
and how it was making me feel on stuff here
and there. Yeah, because I was I mean, I did
need them to get through the situation clean too, you
know what I mean. So, but I've I guess I

(01:53:02):
don't know if I'm answering your question really, but yes,
the passive aggressive joke attempt at bringing that up was
the unfiltered version of me trying to trying my best
to communicate that I was feeling a disconnect okay from
her making the initiate initiating actions right.

Speaker 8 (01:53:24):
So, and hearing him say that he is going to
have to navigate and learn how to bypass all of
the negative shit to get to the less attacking phrase
to be able to approach you with things. That's going

(01:53:45):
to be the process of him being able to come
to you. And if every time he says something out
of the side of his neck that's blaming or you
take it personally, however you take it personally, can't be
a reaction there and then a backfire. Yeah, there has
to be a moment of oh, that just hit me

(01:54:07):
that that just kind of pissed me off. Why did
you say that that way or why was why are
you talking to me in that tone? And if it
becomes elevated. I am a very big fan of a
safeword in conversation, so anybody can use it at any time,
and once the word is said, it is understood that
we are pausing all communication. We are both getting to

(01:54:31):
a point to where we don't want to say something
that we can't take back, and we need to take
forty five minute break. We can watch TV, we can
go get ice cream, we can parallel play, play video games,
read a book, whatever, and then come back revisit this
conversation once our nervous systems have calmed down and try
to work through this in a better manner. Yeah, that

(01:54:51):
safeboard can be anything. I would not recommend using something
you use in your day to day conversation, so like
come quiet.

Speaker 9 (01:54:58):
Would be great.

Speaker 6 (01:55:00):
I love a kumquat.

Speaker 8 (01:55:01):
And then once that phrase is said, there is not
chasing after it said. Yeah, so there's not going to
be a I acknowledge that you said that, but I'm
still upset right now. My feelings are hurt, So I'm
going to continue to push for you to fight me.
Right knowing that that was him unfiltered, didn't go through

(01:55:24):
his network, which is what you want, and he phrased
it in a way that hurt your feelings, took it personally,
Are you willing to work with him on not taking
those things personally doing a little check in the moment
and saying, Babe, I want to hear you out, but

(01:55:45):
the way you're talking to me right now makes me
want to not be a part of this conversation, right.
Are you willing to do that for your guys' marriage?

Speaker 5 (01:55:52):
Yeah? Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 4 (01:55:57):
I like kind of tie in with what you're saying before,
with whether like when somebody's sharing how they're feeling, like
allowing them to share that feeling, no matter what I
feel about it, because that's them processing it.

Speaker 5 (01:56:11):
It kind of reminds me of that. It's like like.

Speaker 4 (01:56:14):
Allowing that person to go there or be there and
know that there's like gotta be some grace involved with it.
But then also like trusting that the other person if
they do bring something up, it's not a personal attack.
So if at any point, like I feel like I

(01:56:35):
need to say but and like and that's a huge
thing of mine, Like I feel like I need to
justify and you need to understand like where this is
coming from.

Speaker 5 (01:56:41):
Because I had no bad into it doesn't matter like.

Speaker 4 (01:56:46):
Now, so like just allowing that to unfold as it does,
and then like communicate it in a way for both
of us to receive it and communicate it in a
way that like isn't is allowing them that space to
be like not super nice.

Speaker 2 (01:57:07):
There's a difference between validating and a green So somebody's
feeling something, they have a right to feel that way,
and then you validating that looks like I can see
how that would hurt, right, I could see how that
would pish you off. I could see how that's affecting
you and let them get it all out and then afterwards,
if they feel better, you can then share your side
of the story. But interrupting and becoming combative or that's

(01:57:31):
going to be very loud in here with this that
needs to happen. And that's where that validation comes in,
because you're basically telling you a person that I hear
what you're going through right now. I can see that
that sucks for you, and it doesn't have to be
like a you know, I'm sorry you feel that way,
because that's a fuck you.

Speaker 1 (01:57:51):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:57:53):
I want to thank everybody for holding space for this
conversation because we've been two hours already.

Speaker 8 (01:57:58):
I want to say something real quick because I also
just recognize to spend two hours. Thank you guys for
being so open. I know that this sucks. Saying all
of this out loud sucks. Acknowledging it knowing that it's
a real thing sucks. I'm going to challenge you guys
to say damn near every thought that comes to your

(01:58:22):
mind out loud to each other. Don't care what it
is and acknowledge it. Don't acknowledge it, don't seek something
from saying the thought out loud. Just say it out loud,
and then if it derives a conversation, fantastic. You guys
are now talking about something new in your relationship that
would have never been had otherwise. And then if not,

(01:58:45):
you get something to put in your little pocketive knowledge
about the person you're going to spend the rest of
your life with. And then I'm going to ask you
again Monday before we all leave, how that goes so accountability.

Speaker 2 (01:58:57):
It needs to be done from a place of love,
so you're not being malicious. The intent behind things matters.
If you're doing it because you're trying to problem solve
is very different than if you're doing it just because
you're hurt. And then the other thing that I want
to challenge you guys to do is start doing the
check ins on it a twice a week basis, like
a Wednesday Sunday thing, because you're getting report cards on
how things are going throughout the week instead of waiting
until there's conflict and then unleashing. For everybody that's listening

(01:59:22):
to this on the podcast, the check ins are are
free on our website. You can download a pdf. It
doesn't cost you anything. And then the other thing that
I think you guys need to do is start writing
down things like you had said the three things that
make you feel like what do I need to do
to show you I love you today? You should be
writing down things that you need from each other and
then you guys can bring those up during the check ins, like, hey,

(01:59:43):
I noticed this week that our intimacy fell off. I
would like to be pursued a little bit. It makes
me feel like I matter to you if you tell
me that I'm beautiful or you you know, grab my
dick every once in a while, like whatever it is
that you need. We're really simple like that. Yeah, I
mean I'll take an ankle compliment. It doesn't take much.
But those are the kind of things that need to

(02:00:04):
be talked about, and it's a lot easier to write
it down and have that conversation from a non emotional
standpoint because you wrote it down while you're emotional. When
you bring it back up, you're not going to be
because it's not in the moment. So you can have
the conversations if I would like to be pursued, our
intimacy has fallen off, I need more quality time, I
miss you while you're at work. Those kind of things
really go a long way, and that also adds the

(02:00:25):
ICU and the validation of things because you can write
things down, like you made dinner tonight, it was great,
and during the check and hey, Thursday night you made
gravy and biscuits for dinner. I love gravy and biscuits.
Things like that will teach you to be more forthcoming
with gratitude, which will help you be seen and that
doesn't have to be in in the moment thing. You
guys can carry tho little pocket journals and write everything down.
It's a great way to start communicating and the check

(02:00:47):
ins will help will help teach you guys how to
talk to each other in the moment. In six months
from now you won't need to do them at all.
So do you have anything else that you want to
wrap up here? I do want to take a second,
I have to. I'm going to start each new conversation over.

Speaker 5 (02:01:04):
Yeah, that's the whole episode.

Speaker 2 (02:01:07):
Yeah, a phenomenal.

Speaker 1 (02:01:09):
Yeah, I appreciate you guys sitting through that.

Speaker 5 (02:01:15):
No, no, sorry at all.

Speaker 2 (02:01:17):
Do you guys have anything else last minute that you
want to touch on before we move on to the
next thing? We still have a whole nother day here, but.

Speaker 7 (02:01:27):
I think yeah, because I mean we can also, like
we said tomorrow during shoot yeah, down.

Speaker 5 (02:01:38):
With them.

Speaker 2 (02:01:39):
Yea, all right, I'm gonna just quickly outro then and
then just stop this.

Speaker 1 (02:01:44):
All right, guys.

Speaker 2 (02:01:45):
I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. Peaches is taking
the dog out, so she's not going to say goodbye,
but we will see you on the next one. Yeah, bye, babe.

Speaker 9 (02:01:54):
All right, guys, are we ready? Bear your souls? Go?

Speaker 16 (02:02:04):
A little bit of backstory. I was I was married
before previously for thirteen years, and it was.

Speaker 17 (02:02:15):
Really hard and like I hear you guys talking about
not carrying stuff back from previous relationships, it was a.

Speaker 16 (02:02:30):
Lot of push your family a way. She didn't want
anything to do with like my family at all.

Speaker 17 (02:02:35):
And even now I still struggle with stuff from with court.

Speaker 16 (02:02:44):
We're fighting for custody.

Speaker 17 (02:02:47):
And and then it got to the point she like
had my kids like so brainwashed that she had them
saying that like I was physically abused them and stuff.
And then out of nowhere, I was going to pick
up my kids and I got ambushed.

Speaker 16 (02:03:07):
Well they just said, hey, we have a warrant for
you arrest.

Speaker 17 (02:03:11):
And I had my So we have an eight year
old he's pretty much mine, but he was with me,
and he was super excited to see my kids and stuff,
and and like having to tell him everything's going to
be okay and then disappear into jail for I was

(02:03:41):
in jail for just it was only like a month,
like twenty.

Speaker 3 (02:03:44):
Two days, a month and a half after we got married, ye.

Speaker 18 (02:03:49):
And so got out. Had to spend sixty five thousand.

Speaker 17 (02:04:00):
Dollars on a lawyer too, because we just had a
family lawyer at the time. And he's like he was
upfront and on us. He's like, you know, I will
go to battle for you, but I'm not a criminal defense.

Speaker 16 (02:04:13):
Lawyer, and and you need.

Speaker 17 (02:04:16):
A criminal defense lawyer, so we I looked just looked
up the best in the state and got the It's like,
whatever I need to do, I'll prove that I'm innocent,
no matter. And the day before court, so I had
to be.

Speaker 16 (02:04:33):
At home with an ankle monitor on for a year.

Speaker 17 (02:04:36):
And then it was two days before court and my
lawyers had talked to the attorney and it's like like
it's obvious. Look at here's all the evidence, look look
at everything. And then the district attorney was just threw

(02:04:59):
it out.

Speaker 12 (02:05:01):
And mm hmmm.

Speaker 16 (02:05:05):
I had a ton of guilt for dragging her through this,
Like it's hard to I would move from how he
realized that right, But.

Speaker 17 (02:05:24):
We've come a long way and like I couldn't ask
for a better wife, Like she's amazing. I love her
and we hardly ever fight, and when we do, it's
just it seems like little things and they do build
up mhm. And sometimes I don't know if if I

(02:05:47):
don't want to bring stuff up because of what I've.

Speaker 16 (02:05:51):
Put her through, I feel like that's my fault.

Speaker 3 (02:05:55):
And and when he does bring stuff up, I get
defensive because it's been a thing that I've done since
I was very young, like I grew up with, you know,
a huge family, a mother who has very much the
mindset of honor your family name and make sure that

(02:06:18):
you do everything to your ability to be the best
human being you can.

Speaker 6 (02:06:22):
So having.

Speaker 3 (02:06:29):
People in my life who would constantly accuse me of
things that I didn't do that I felt trashed me
put me in a difficult situation. And it's almost like
it's built this wall up of when he does try
to bring up just the littlest of things, I put
that wall up and I just want to beat it down,

(02:06:49):
but I don't know how. I don't have the tools,
and I need the tools so that he can feel
comfortable talking to me about things that do or him
because it's not it's not very often that like things
come up like that, Like we do have situations where oh, hey,
you did something today that kind of really didn't make

(02:07:10):
me feel great. It's like, Okay, I'll do what I
can to not do that again, or I'm working on it.
Please give me some grace so that I can become
who you need me to be, who you want me
to be. And I am just struggling with that because.

Speaker 2 (02:07:28):
Like I wrote something down while you look for that.
What's the difference between the days that you get defensive
in the days where you say give me grace or
the situations.

Speaker 3 (02:07:40):
So a lot of it, I feel comes from where
I work. I work in an industry that is.

Speaker 5 (02:07:50):
Ninety nine point nine percent.

Speaker 16 (02:07:51):
Then well say, I kind of feel like it. It's
the way I approach it is.

Speaker 17 (02:07:55):
How the difference is if I come a little bit
softer and and try to work into the conversation and
then but if I'm frustrated and I bring it right.

Speaker 16 (02:08:06):
Up, and then it's just immediately, yeah, walls up, cloves out, and.

Speaker 3 (02:08:15):
That that comes from having to do that to keep
myself safe from my son's biological dad. He was not
a good person in the least bit. And it was constantly,
it was an everyday thing for five years almost. It
was more four and a half of trying to defend myself.

(02:08:37):
And it's trying to break that that I'm struggling with
so bad.

Speaker 9 (02:08:41):
How long have you guys been married.

Speaker 12 (02:08:43):
For three years?

Speaker 8 (02:08:46):
How long has it been since you were in that
last relationship where you had to fight?

Speaker 3 (02:08:51):
So he left August of twenty one, and Stephen and
I got together December of twenty one, so it was
probably Almo almost almost five years ago.

Speaker 8 (02:09:10):
Four years ago, So you guys got together like two
months after that relationship ended?

Speaker 5 (02:09:16):
About it was?

Speaker 3 (02:09:16):
It was about three months?

Speaker 1 (02:09:18):
Yeah, okay?

Speaker 16 (02:09:20):
Four months?

Speaker 9 (02:09:21):
So has he left the beginning of August?

Speaker 8 (02:09:24):
What did you do in that three months to heal
yourself from the things that have happened?

Speaker 6 (02:09:29):
I didn't.

Speaker 3 (02:09:30):
A lot of it has been like talking things through
with him and trying not to blame myself so much
because I feel like I was a huge part of
why things didn't work out with my ex okay, and
that guilt that I fell from it like I should

(02:09:51):
give him a chance, but he's proven time and time
again that he can't be trusted, especially around our boy,
and I didn't want to put my boy in a
situation where he would be in danger.

Speaker 9 (02:10:07):
So that guilt.

Speaker 8 (02:10:11):
I don't experience guilt in that sense the way that
you do. I experience guilt from other things that could
have different outcomes, but it would impact my mental health,
or it would compromise my values, my morals, those kinds
of things. So that guilt has not gone away. The

(02:10:31):
guilt's still there. So I don't want to sit here
and tell you that, yes, one day you will never
feel that way again, and it's going to be great.
It gets easier, you will become more logical about the things.
The emotional side of it will start to die down
a little bit as you continue processing, working on things.

(02:10:54):
So it does get better, it just never dies. And
then you asked a question. What was your question?

Speaker 6 (02:11:07):
It was.

Speaker 3 (02:11:09):
A little book. How do I go about taking down
this defensive wall when it feels like it's an attack
on my character my royalty?

Speaker 9 (02:11:22):
Okay?

Speaker 8 (02:11:26):
So you said that, and it triggered another thought in
me of something that I wanted to say on something
you said.

Speaker 9 (02:11:32):
And you're explaining, so.

Speaker 8 (02:11:36):
You listed two things externally from you that are reasons
for maybe like reactions or behavior. I'm not I'm not
trying to repeat verbatim, but it was something along the
lines of this happens because this situation or this person.

Speaker 9 (02:12:01):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (02:12:03):
Right?

Speaker 9 (02:12:03):
Okay? Right?

Speaker 17 (02:12:06):
And it's industrial so it's like one of my it
gets easy for me to get you. I haven't been
a jealous person, but.

Speaker 3 (02:12:18):
Because of previous relationship, well a previous relationship and the
way that she treated him, it's kind of followed us
into our relationship, and I noticed that it's definitely gotten
better because in the beginning it wasn't the greatest and
we were trying to solve that. But he has gotten
better with that.

Speaker 1 (02:12:37):
That's good.

Speaker 9 (02:12:41):
In regards to.

Speaker 8 (02:12:43):
External things impacting you and then it bleeding into the relationship,
I would put a big focus on trying to find
ways to separate myself as a wife and who I
am at home from the things that are happening at

(02:13:04):
work with family, with friends, whatever, whatever, whatever. Yeah, I'm
gonna ask you a second time.

Speaker 9 (02:13:13):
I'm so sorry. Can you please read your question again?

Speaker 1 (02:13:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (02:13:15):
Absolutely, I have no problem rereading it. So my question was,
how do you go about taking down a defensive wall
when it feels like an attack on your character in loyalty?

Speaker 8 (02:13:28):
Okay, what about the interaction makes you feel like it's
an attack?

Speaker 3 (02:13:40):
I think like from my side, it doesn't seem like
it's coming off clear like it. It feels like he
sometimes he's saying.

Speaker 9 (02:14:02):
It's okay, sorry, you don't have to apologize.

Speaker 3 (02:14:11):
I feel like he's trying to accuse me of something.

Speaker 6 (02:14:14):
And I've been.

Speaker 9 (02:14:16):
Through enough of that, right, the traumas. That's yeah, it's just.

Speaker 3 (02:14:19):
It's stuck like a sticky ball won't get off.

Speaker 9 (02:14:23):
So not alright, and.

Speaker 3 (02:14:32):
Not with the way that he said it, but not
with anything that he said. But that's the way that
I've taken it.

Speaker 2 (02:14:42):
I know, I know because I didn't have the microphone.
The question was, has he ever actually accused you of anything? Okay,
so all of this is a you problem. There is
nothing wrong with going that felt accusatory, and I don't
like the way that made me feel. So that he
has the opportunity to clearly, properly explain himself or rephrase

(02:15:08):
what he's trying to say in a way that does
not feel like an attack to you, and that doesn't go.
That doesn't mean so many people are gonna be like, well,
that's not what I meant. That's not what I meant,
isn't it. That's further an attack because now you're back pedaling.
I didn't make myself clear. Allow me to rephrase that
so that I get my point across. That changes things

(02:15:28):
because now you're like logical brain, not well it's not
what I meant, emotional brain conversation, but you feeling like
you're being attacked and all of this shit that you've
been through and him never have been the one to
have done that to you. This is one of those
moments where you're like, hey, this is a trigger. Something
just made me feel like can we pause and discuss this.
Then he will learn how to communicate with you in

(02:15:50):
ways that that doesn't happen in the future. This is
exactly what we're talking about on the last one, where
it all comes down to how you say things and
how things are getting delivered. But if he doesn't understand
your triggers in the way that things convey to make
you feel that way, he will never be able to
step over that landmine. He'll hit it every fucking time.

Speaker 3 (02:16:13):
It's kind of your job.

Speaker 9 (02:16:13):
So in regards to.

Speaker 8 (02:16:20):
How to let that guard down and to not take
things personally as somebody with PTSD, I have had to
learn to live in the moment. I had become very
accustomed to living in the past. I would wake up
and it was autopilot. I'm brushing my teeth because that's

(02:16:41):
what I'm supposed to do now, because.

Speaker 9 (02:16:43):
I care about my hygiene.

Speaker 8 (02:16:44):
In the moment, that's just part of what my body
needs to do to get through the day. But in
my mind, I am not seeing myself in the mirror
brushing my teeth. I am disassociated thinking about that one
thing for the thirty thousand, thirtieth thousand, oh.

Speaker 9 (02:17:01):
My gosh, thirty million time, the million time.

Speaker 8 (02:17:10):
And in living in that disassociated state, thinking about the
traumatic events, reliving the traumatic events, being in that fight
or flight, thinking about ways I could have handled it differently,
I was neglecting my marriage, the children because I wasn't

(02:17:32):
living in the present moment and actually not just appreciating
their presence, but giving credit for their presence. So in
moments where your husband comes to you about something and
your first reaction is he's accusing me of something. I

(02:17:53):
need to fight back. I'm about to get in trouble.
You're also you're not going to get in trouble anymore.
You're an adult. You're not gonna get hit, you're not
gonna get spanked, You're not gonna get anything taken.

Speaker 9 (02:18:05):
Away from you. Your life is not going to.

Speaker 8 (02:18:09):
Suddenly shift in a very negative way because somebody else
is in control of you. When that is your first
instinct to have that reaction of fight or flight, I
would start taking that as an alarm bell. So instead
of falling into that and thinking I need to survive
right now. I would view that as my body's trying

(02:18:33):
to tell me that this is a trigger. I need
to verbalize what's happening right now, because I know for
me personally, when I'm triggered and I become emotional, I'm
like it need to be waited, blank, get tied down,
freaking out, polar bear. So I or like I'm passing out,
I'm about to hit the ground, somebody needs to catch me,
and then I'm out for the next forty five seconds.

(02:18:56):
That's how it feels emotionally. Once I've reached that peak,
I'm no longer in control of myself. It's like third
person view. So I verbalized to my husband that just
triggered me and I'm about to get stupid. And then
I would try my best to be in the present
moment and really look at my husband and think about

(02:19:16):
the things that he has done for me to show
that he loves me and that he is not the
person I need to be scared of. And sometimes those
conversations might take forty five minutes, hour and a half
two hours, because I have to take those times to
really ground myself in the moment, look at my husband
for who he is, not for the people that have

(02:19:36):
hurt me, and being willing to be open to being
checked in the moment. So if I am raising my voice,
or I have an attitude or a tone, or I
say something that is detrimental in any way spiritually, mentally,

(02:19:57):
emotionally for my husband and he tells I didn't deserve that. Fuck,
you're right, I'm sorry, and I'm not going to double
down and no, you did deserve that because you just
said this and you knew it would trigger me.

Speaker 9 (02:20:13):
It's a lot, it's a lot to.

Speaker 8 (02:20:16):
Do all of those things in the moment, and that's
where patience comes in and grace comes in on your end.

Speaker 2 (02:20:20):
And we've actually had that discussion of I didn't deserve that. Yeah, Yeah,
I don't think that there's anything wrong with having that
conversation in the moment and putting everything on pause. And
that's one of those things where if you feel like
you were being attacked and you're sack I didn't deserve that,

(02:20:41):
he can be like, what do you mean you didn't
deserve that? And that could open the door for a conversation,
But that's putting validity to your feelings. It doesn't matter
if that's what you intended to say or not. This
is how it made me feel. And now I feel
like this. I don't deserve that. You get very comfortable
when you're with somebody that actually cares about your feelings
and emotions saying things like that, because it's not gonna

(02:21:02):
be thrown in your face. Like I've never heard all
you're a fucking pussy from her, you know what I mean?
Like she's like, well, okay, well let's talk about that.
Then why do you feel that way? And that's it's
created a lot of open dialogue. That is, it's been
healing because now she knows, she knows the darkness that's
in me, Like it's not a secret anymore. But if
I just bottled it up, got silent, left whatever exploded

(02:21:24):
and we didn't have those conversations, she would never know
about it. I'm real big on it, Like the way
that made me feel, Yes, fucking all the time. Don't
give a fuck where I'm at.

Speaker 8 (02:21:35):
No, there are times where he will come to me
and say I didn't like the way that made me feel,
and I was like, what what made you feel? And
he's like I don't know, Well, how did it make
you feel. I don't know, I just know I didn't
like it. I'll come back with more information later, and
a few hours we'll go by and we'll have a conversation.

(02:21:58):
And I think an important part.

Speaker 9 (02:21:59):
Of that is I don't him.

Speaker 8 (02:22:01):
You know, in the beginning, when that first started, my
anxiety would kick in of oh, I did something, and
in that fear of I'm in trouble, he's going to
leave me, my abandonment, I feel like I have to
fight for my life, and it's that self sabotaging behavior
cycle that kicks in. And once I recognize that my
husband's not going to leave me, I started taking that

(02:22:27):
I didn't like how that made me feel as Oh,
we're just about to have a conversation. I'm going to
understand my husband better and hopefully I can never make
him feel that way again.

Speaker 9 (02:22:36):
If it's within my control.

Speaker 8 (02:22:38):
If it's not, and it's other people are a situation,
then we have to reevaluate putting ourselves in those circles
or situations. But it's not something to start imploding in
words about. Is it, oh gosh, this may have to
be cut. Is it too soon for me to say,
don't Hiroshima it or is it poor timing because of politics?

(02:23:02):
Right now, I think you should cut that.

Speaker 2 (02:23:07):
The question is how many fans do we have in Japan?

Speaker 9 (02:23:10):
Oh, yeah, that's.

Speaker 6 (02:23:10):
A good question.

Speaker 8 (02:23:11):
That's a good question. I didn't mean it to be offensive. Sorry, guys,
I love you did all that makes sense.

Speaker 16 (02:23:22):
That's going second, like like we like, we have.

Speaker 17 (02:23:26):
A lot of the same stuff, like intimacy, Like I'm.

Speaker 1 (02:23:31):
Just like you.

Speaker 3 (02:23:32):
Then I struggle because I feel like sometimes my libido's
done just not there, And it might just be because
I'm working myself too hard or I'm stressed. Yeah, a
whole bunch of stuff. I want to get flip worked
done because I feel like there's something wrong.

Speaker 1 (02:23:48):
But I'm.

Speaker 12 (02:23:51):
I try to give you the space she needs when
she needs something.

Speaker 8 (02:23:56):
So I'm gonna, I don't know, challenge you bring something
to I. Just so you just said that for whatever reason,
you're libido maybe low. Everything that you just talked about
is exhausting mentally, emotionally, spiritually. I wouldn't be surprised if
that is a major contributing factor to you low libido.

(02:24:19):
Having so much chaos and confusion within yourself, the last
thing on your mind would be something that makes you
feel good. You probably want to kill yourself, so.

Speaker 9 (02:24:32):
Let's go right. So the most, it's a lot.

Speaker 8 (02:24:37):
So it's hard on those days to, like I said,
want to do something that makes you feel good. You
probably feel like you don't deserve it. Why would somebody
want to do that with me? Whatever the case may be.

Speaker 16 (02:24:51):
Then it's hard for me because she's dropped at gorgeous, right.
I catch guys checking her out all the time.

Speaker 12 (02:24:57):
And then why would you do that?

Speaker 3 (02:25:01):
I have very low self esteem.

Speaker 1 (02:25:04):
Yeah, you just literally took everything that he said and
threw it in the gutter.

Speaker 2 (02:25:08):
So you just took the way that he sees you
and the way that he feels about the situation and
shit all over it. And I don't think that you
were intending to do that because you don't see it
that way. But you did just invalidate everything that he
had stated. That's not a fuck you to you. I'm
just calling so that you're aware of what you're doing

(02:25:28):
in the moment. Our words matter, our words become our actions,
and doing things like that it perpetuates a low self esteem.

Speaker 3 (02:25:39):
I think it's just because in previous relationships I did
not get that attention.

Speaker 9 (02:25:45):
I didn't get that love, I didn't get that affirmation.

Speaker 3 (02:25:48):
I was called a fat cow.

Speaker 2 (02:25:49):
I was you know, what does that got to do
with now?

Speaker 3 (02:25:52):
Absolutely nothing? But I think it's because I still have that,
like you believe it? Yeah, that that you know double
on my shoulder. That's like, oh, but this person said
this one time, So why would you believe somebody like
him who is one of the most amazing people in
this planet and I don't feel like I deserve them.

Speaker 8 (02:26:12):
Do you remember being in those relationships, probably scrolling Facebook
TikTok in the early stages and seeing people in the
relationships that were good and healthy, and thinking, I fucking
want that. It would be so nice to have that,
And now you do and you won't accept it. You're
in the position that you've wanted for so long and

(02:26:38):
squandering it is the only thing coming to my mind
right now. I don't feel like that's the correct phrasing.
But don't negate the things due to your own insecurities.
If you're going to allow the negative things that happened
in the past influence you're thinking from other people, why

(02:27:02):
not allow this amazing, supportive, loving man influence you that
same way.

Speaker 9 (02:27:15):
So I know that he thinks.

Speaker 3 (02:27:16):
That I'm beautiful, but I don't want to believe that
other people do because that kind of, like in a
weird way, grosses me out because it's like I don't
want anybody else to find me beautiful like he does.
I think that's kind where I.

Speaker 16 (02:27:29):
Struggle with that.

Speaker 2 (02:27:41):
So there's not a way for other people to see
you the same way that he does because he understands
and knows you and his surface level. For everyone else,
so they're seeing an outward appearance and he's seeing you,
and there's a difference between somebody just looking at you
and truly being seen. On the intimacy thing, because it
seems to be the theme of the day, what does

(02:28:02):
your non sexual intimacy look like?

Speaker 3 (02:28:05):
So for me, I'm usually like rubbing his back or
his neck, giving him cuddles, hugs, kisses, like just passing by.

Speaker 2 (02:28:17):
Is that enough for you? As in it's not enough
for you in general?

Speaker 17 (02:28:23):
Or I'll take as much as you want to give me,
but but I.

Speaker 12 (02:28:30):
Love the bedroom.

Speaker 2 (02:28:37):
I asked that because intimacy looks different for different people,
and like I personally as much as I love our
sexy time, if I had to get rid of our
sexy time or out of the bedroom intimacy. Our sexy
time would go in a minute, because the out of
the bedroom intimacy is like ninety percent of our life.

Speaker 1 (02:28:52):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:28:53):
It happens while we're working, It happens when we're driving,
it happens when we're out to eat, it happens when
we're taking the kids to the zoo. Because we are
there for each other in a very loving, like bonded relationship.

Speaker 16 (02:29:05):
See, we spend a lot of time apart.

Speaker 17 (02:29:07):
There's there's times I work graveyards and she's working days
and so that I don't see her for a couple
of days.

Speaker 16 (02:29:12):
And then and then not feeling wanted. It's hard.

Speaker 2 (02:29:20):
So then what do you think that you need to
change that? And don't just say sexy time, because the
sexy time is the end result. The changes that have
to happen to get to the end result is what
what I'm asking you.

Speaker 16 (02:29:31):
And that feeling and being desired, Like I would love
more of that.

Speaker 2 (02:29:36):
So like sexy dirty photos on the phone while you're
at work, or.

Speaker 17 (02:29:40):
Like net kisses or even and like I've we've talked
about connection before, Like while I'm and that that's one
thing she struggles with. But like, I love just a text,
hey babe, thinking about you.

Speaker 1 (02:29:54):
Yeah, but she gets.

Speaker 16 (02:30:00):
Caught up, caught up and stuff so easily.

Speaker 3 (02:30:02):
It's I struggle to put my attention where it needs
to be, especially when I'm at work, because I mean
there's things that can kill me out there where it's
like I might not come home today to my husband
and my son, and so I have to have like
all of my focus on that first.

Speaker 2 (02:30:18):
But what about when you're not at work, when he's
at work and you're not, I.

Speaker 3 (02:30:22):
Do not do what I should and message him more
or call him more.

Speaker 6 (02:30:26):
I know there's been.

Speaker 3 (02:30:27):
Nights where like it's mostly been taking care of the
trying to catch up on, taking care of the house,
taking care of the animals, taking care of our son,
trying to get dishes done, trying to get laundry folded,
you know, just little things so that when he does
come home, he doesn't have to do that and he
can just.

Speaker 5 (02:30:44):
Take a deep breath and relax.

Speaker 1 (02:30:45):
How much screen time do you have a week?

Speaker 10 (02:30:47):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (02:30:47):
Fuck, I don't even know.

Speaker 16 (02:30:50):
That depends on you can.

Speaker 2 (02:30:51):
Use one tenth of that screen time to send a
text message every once in a while, right, because he's
telling you what he needs to feel full in a
non sexual manner because you say you have below tobido.
Those other things fill that intimacy box so that the
sexy time doesn't always have to be there, and he'll
still feel desired once it and that that matters. You
could even whisper in his ear. I'm here to talk
to you about your extended warranty.

Speaker 8 (02:31:17):
I was gonna say, ladies, if you don't whisper in
your man's ear, you need to be doing that. It
is one of the greatest things you can do to him.
And it doesn't have to be anything sexy. I like
it when you use the left blinker when we drive
and then just do like a nice little shoulder touch
and walk away.

Speaker 7 (02:31:36):
I know it sounds ridiculous, but you can legit, like
set little timers or reminders on your phone to flirt
with your man, and.

Speaker 2 (02:31:45):
The more often.

Speaker 7 (02:31:48):
It so it's like because I did, like look at
my screen time and I was like, wow, I could
take two seconds of this to be like, man, I
about your bulk's really good right now and whatever. Yeah,
that shit matters to men too, Like we don't.

Speaker 2 (02:32:02):
Think about it.

Speaker 5 (02:32:03):
But I like to feel pretty, you know.

Speaker 9 (02:32:07):
I love it when I compliment my calf? Is there
anything else not that I can think of off the
top of my head other than the you know, was

(02:32:27):
this sufficient? Sufficient? Sufficient?

Speaker 5 (02:32:29):
The English?

Speaker 16 (02:32:36):
We can tag tag someone else in process.

Speaker 6 (02:32:38):
What we've got.

Speaker 8 (02:32:42):
We will also have the one hour tomorrow with you, guys,
so make notes throughout the day tonight. This is also your, guys,
gentle reminder that you have a jar that's empty to
be filled with things that you were grateful for with
your partner. I want to ask you out how many
is in there before you leave?

Speaker 13 (02:32:58):
Yeah?

Speaker 12 (02:32:59):
Oh god?

Speaker 1 (02:33:06):
Recording like do you want to out?

Speaker 16 (02:33:09):
Trust?

Speaker 1 (02:33:10):
Like an end recording?

Speaker 6 (02:33:11):
Like together, We're gonna.

Speaker 14 (02:33:14):
Bye, guys.

Speaker 1 (02:33:15):
That's it.

Speaker 5 (02:33:16):
That's all bolts, all right, we're recording.

Speaker 8 (02:33:26):
We're back, beautiful bitches, continuing the I don't know, figuring
out the soul conversations of how to navigate life in
a smoother way, just trying to find something more than
just welcome back, welcome back. We're talking here we go, all.

Speaker 16 (02:33:50):
Right, So what do we got, guys?

Speaker 10 (02:33:51):
Well, I don't really have any talking points that we
thought of, but we could probably just go over how
are relationship started, and because I think because something we've
talked about in in the past is kind of how
quickly our relationship started.

Speaker 6 (02:34:09):
Whereas we started dating.

Speaker 10 (02:34:11):
In May, and then by December of that same year,
we found out that we were going to be having
our daughter, So we really only had you know, seven
months of no child before we started getting to know
each other.

Speaker 6 (02:34:28):
And then.

Speaker 10 (02:34:30):
Especially once like the pregnancy started coming to an end,
I started realizing, like, oh my god, we've almost we've
been pregnant with a child longer than we've been together.
And I think part of some of it for us
is we kind of just really got into the way

(02:34:51):
that things are like taking care of a baby and
going to work and coming back. And then cause when
I first emailed you guys, it was like, I want
to say, March or something after we found out, and
your advice was pretty much like you're gonna have to
just put your head between your fucking your knees and
just pray. Dude, like it's you're having a baby this

(02:35:12):
early and all this is like uh. And I think
that's why I wanted to come out here too, was
because it kind of just signified, I think that we
need to get our head kind of out of that
mindset and start going, Okay, what are we gonna do
because we've been starting that, like we'll do trauma yoga

(02:35:32):
therapy and not therapy. It's like trauma informed yoga together
each week, and we've done that for the last month,
and like I'm going to therapy and she's about to start,
and yeah, after.

Speaker 19 (02:35:42):
This trip, they start therapy.

Speaker 6 (02:35:44):
Yeah, So I think a lot of it.

Speaker 10 (02:35:48):
That's why I felt like there wasn't a whole lot
for us to talk about, because I'm like, it's we
just have a lot we need to work on, and
we're just slowly.

Speaker 6 (02:35:55):
Becoming aware of that together.

Speaker 10 (02:35:57):
Like, because I think part of the main issue we
probably have is as I'm listening to some other people
talk about their issues, is I think both of us
haven't really found our voice.

Speaker 6 (02:36:07):
Yet or like what.

Speaker 10 (02:36:09):
What do we actually want or what do we expect
or what do we need? Like we almost can't fully
put our finger on that yet, and like.

Speaker 6 (02:36:22):
That's when I think we'll.

Speaker 10 (02:36:23):
Run into more problems once we both actually know what
we want, because I think a lot of our life
we didn't really stand independently, like because we both came
up in pretty chaotic families with a lot of drug use,
and so like we would lean on our siblings a lot,
and I think we just went from leaning on our
siblings to then once.

Speaker 6 (02:36:43):
We got together, we were leaning on each other.

Speaker 10 (02:36:45):
And we're supposed to each other, right, But I'm saying
like in terms of that's the only thing, you know
what I'm saying, like like I only find joying the
things that I do with her or for her, or
I don't. I didn't have things that I found way
and for myself or like things that I felt like
I was interested in over twenty six, So you.

Speaker 2 (02:37:08):
Haven't even you're you're about to hit your quarter life crisis.

Speaker 10 (02:37:11):
Well, I think that's what's hitting me, is what it
really is. I'm like, oh god, dude.

Speaker 2 (02:37:15):
That's normal. Yeah, especially in today's age. The fact that
you're at twenty five and don't know what you want
out of life and like you don't have your shit
figured out is fucking normal And there's nothing wrong with that. No,
but you got a kid now, So like.

Speaker 10 (02:37:28):
Peace with is like I I need to have more
patience because a lot of like where my discordances come
from inside of me lately is like I'm like, I
want to be somewhere.

Speaker 2 (02:37:37):
Else, And I'm like, what do you mean by that?
As in like, don't sugarcoat you mean.

Speaker 10 (02:37:43):
No, I'm saying like along the journey, I want to
be farther along the journey than where I am. I
want to already have these things figured out, and I've
had to have more patience with this is the next
step and there is another next step.

Speaker 6 (02:37:55):
I can't just go all the way up to that.

Speaker 2 (02:37:57):
Right, But you don't you don't even know what the
journey is. You don't know, you don't know where your
destination is going to be.

Speaker 10 (02:38:01):
You just you don't know what I'm saying, Like right now,
as I'm figuring it out and I'm going to therapy
and learning new things, it's like that's what the next
steps are, or like go and find.

Speaker 2 (02:38:08):
Out right, So you're you're frustrated that you're not at
the position that you don't know where you want to be.

Speaker 10 (02:38:14):
Essentially no, Well, and that's like why I'm saying I
had to have more patience because I'm like, dude, I
don't even know. I haven't figured anything out yet. So
it's like, yeah, I could ramble forever that somebody.

Speaker 2 (02:38:29):
Can this is that quarter life crisis. Yeah, this is
what happens when men don't have mentors that that give
them rights of passage into adulthood and point them with purpose.

Speaker 10 (02:38:38):
No, that's exactly That's something I've struggled with a lot
because I'm like, I felt like I didn't actually have
a role model. I had like an Antichrist role model,
like exactly what not to do, like exactly how to
ignore your family, exactly how to not be present in
a room, and trying to like map out the inverse

(02:39:00):
of that is a lot harder than somebody being like,
here's the way, Noah, what do you feel like you
have problems with?

Speaker 7 (02:39:10):
I don't know.

Speaker 19 (02:39:10):
I wanna move out pretty much yet, and we have
steps that we have to take before even.

Speaker 5 (02:39:21):
Thinking about it.

Speaker 12 (02:39:22):
So that kind of.

Speaker 19 (02:39:27):
That's kind of something I want, cause I've never really
had a a stable home, beenonmalists and.

Speaker 2 (02:39:40):
And stuff like that.

Speaker 19 (02:39:41):
So I dream of having my own place. And I
know that we're still young and we're still figuring out,
but I still want like a place where I have
the rules of who is allowed to come in because
with the way I grew up in where we live
live with his mom and his m younger brother, and

(02:40:05):
they just bring people around, and so like my body
will go into fight or flight when i see like
three people coming through the door and I'm watching.

Speaker 20 (02:40:15):
My daughter in the living room, you know, in my
pj's you know, and I've made it, you know, public
to everyone. I'm like, would you let me know that
they're coming over so I have that time to process
and you know, not go into fight or flight or

(02:40:36):
shake like this, you know. And they did it for
a few, like a few times, and then they stop.
And that's something that I struggle with because I wanna
be able to live somewhere where someone's not coming through
the door, you know, I know who's coming in, and
it's my you know, safe space to be in it

(02:40:59):
to be.

Speaker 2 (02:41:00):
Yeah, what's preventing.

Speaker 1 (02:41:01):
You guys from moving off?

Speaker 6 (02:41:05):
Really it's our spending habits.

Speaker 10 (02:41:07):
We'll just spend money on kind of whatever, and I
I I'm to blame.

Speaker 16 (02:41:13):
For most of that.

Speaker 10 (02:41:14):
And because before we even got together, a lot of
I did like a lot of emotional spending where I
had like a lot.

Speaker 6 (02:41:21):
Of credit cards available and I was like really depressed
at the time.

Speaker 10 (02:41:25):
It was probably like five six years ago, but I
I door dashed probably like at least five thousand dollars
worth of food, and then that kind of led into other.

Speaker 6 (02:41:33):
Behaviors like that where I would overspend or like emotionally
eat and like cause, especially when you were talking, like
I had a lot.

Speaker 10 (02:41:41):
Of connection with like the pattern of addictive behaviors because
I've had that a lot in my life and trying
to like unwire that has been really difficult and this
and I also I think part of the problem too
is like I I'll budget and like find out what

(02:42:04):
we need for bills and all that for each month.
And what I've been telling her lately is that, like
I want us to do them together.

Speaker 6 (02:42:13):
So that way, like I have her opinion, but I also.

Speaker 1 (02:42:18):
Have like the accountability anybuddy.

Speaker 10 (02:42:20):
So I'm like, okay, you know, And it's not like
I hide anything from her. She has accessed to all
the accounts that she can look at whenever she wants.
But it's just a matter of like both of us
engaging in it so that way, I don't feel like
alone in that aspect.

Speaker 2 (02:42:35):
So for people that are listening to this, He's part
of the men's group. Q two was a financial audit.
Did you actually sit down and do the financial audit
and did you do it with her?

Speaker 10 (02:42:43):
No? I didn't do it with her, but I went
through like all my debts and what I owe, And.

Speaker 6 (02:42:49):
Because like my main thing is I have a car
that's like worth.

Speaker 10 (02:42:51):
Way too much, I've been trying to find ways to
get out from underneath it. And I feel stuck in
that aspect because I kind of want to just sell
it and then get like a couple of thousand dollars
car and just take half the loan and wrap it
up into that instead and just have a lower payment,
because like I can technically afford it right now, but

(02:43:11):
I can't.

Speaker 2 (02:43:12):
Afford it right right You're living outside of your means.
So with the hold on with the Q two audit,
the last part this month is supposed to be trying
to figure out what you need to do in in
terms of taking steps to reduce the debt so that
you can start investing your money or doing the things
that you want to do vacations or whatever in your
case would be moving. So what are the steps that
you need to take after your audit that would get

(02:43:33):
you to a position where you have the money to
get into an apartment at condo, a house, or whatever
it is that you would need to do to put
her where she's going to be comfortable.

Speaker 10 (02:43:42):
So, yeah, all I did was really kind of just
take stock of everything that was there. But all I
would really think I'd need to do is just we
need to stop just mainly me, just spending on like
little stuff like in cough here and there, like tiny
stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (02:44:02):
And then do you have a savings right now?

Speaker 12 (02:44:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:44:05):
Okay, okay, So then the answer that I really nose
that's a that's a tire pop and you're out that
five hundred bucks. So in order to move into a
place for the first time, I'm assuming you don't have
furniture and like a storage unit somewhere. So to move
into a place on your own, you need to first
last in security. Average place here is between fifteen hundred
and two thousand dollars a month, so you're looking at

(02:44:26):
six grand to move in somewhere before security, electric or
electric deposit, water, all of that shit. So you figure
you're probably gonna need between seventy five hundred and eight
thousand dollars to move in, buy a little bit of furniture,
and have what you need, so in that this is
going to turn into a business fucking podcast, and I apologize,

(02:44:47):
but during that financial audit, one of those things should
have been how much money do I need to put
away a month so that in six months I have
the money necessary to get out of this space. And
that means if you're paying rent to your mom, you
factor that money into the money that you're saving, because
that's going to be part of the pay and your
rent moving forward. But you need to have some sort
of plan, and that means getting rid of your car

(02:45:08):
and getting a cheaper car, getting rid of Netflix, no
longer door dashing, not doing Amazon pick up, more editing,
whatever it is that you can do to start stacking
as much money as you can to get her out
of that spot. You need a plan for that because
simply saying I need to cut back is not detailed enough.
That's just saying that that's something I need to do.
That's like saying I need to stop eating sugar. Yeah,

(02:45:29):
it's not the same thing as going to the store
and meal prepping for the next week of your life.
So that that's what you've got. So that's part of
the audit is trying to figure out how much money
that you are making bringing in versus what's coming out
and what you can cut out to get you to
where you're going. So that was part of the audit.
I think maybe I'm going to have to do a
call with you guys when we get back, because I

(02:45:50):
guess maybe I wasn't that clear on all of is that?
Are you shaka? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (02:46:00):
That would be great, That would be a great episode.

Speaker 2 (02:46:04):
Yeah, So that, I guess is going to be what
I'm challenging needs to do before you leave. I mean,
obviously you wouldn't have your book here that's got all
of your financial audit written down in it, but you
brought it with you before you leave here when you
go to bed tonight, just take an hour and go

(02:46:25):
through and try to figure out how much money you're
bringing in, how much money you're you're putting out, and
then figure out what is absolutely essential for your survival,
and that's what needs to be your only expense. Like
if you make five thousand a month and twenty two
hundred of that is necessary for survival, everything else needs
to go in a savings account until you're able to
get her into a place where she's safe. I mean,

(02:46:45):
that's really what it comes down to. You're her husband.
You're supposed to lead and provide and do those things.
So that needs to be the goal. And by maybe
at the end of the year, you guys will be
looking at your first place together. And it doesn't have
to be a buy a house situation. It could simply
be an apartment. You know, that's going to be the
cheapest to go. You guys can find a little one
bedroom or a two bedroom apartment for auntain where you live.
I know that here we can get them now for

(02:47:07):
about eighteen hundred bucks. Last time I looked for an
apartment that was like twenty seven hundred dollars for a
studio where we live, but market crash, it's.

Speaker 6 (02:47:15):
More like fourteen to sixteene.

Speaker 2 (02:47:18):
Well that that's even better than because they only need
like five or six grand and not seventy five hundred
eight thousand. Do you have anything you want?

Speaker 19 (02:47:26):
Know?

Speaker 2 (02:47:26):
Okay, what else you guys got?

Speaker 6 (02:47:30):
I feel like.

Speaker 19 (02:47:33):
Guaranteeing our daughter.

Speaker 6 (02:47:35):
Oh yeah, we have like a lot of it.

Speaker 10 (02:47:40):
I want to say, we're like too attached to how
she feels and like we're almost both over hyper vigilant
of what's going on with her, Like.

Speaker 9 (02:47:52):
That's your guys's trauma.

Speaker 8 (02:47:53):
Yeah, well, like right off the bat, yeah, So that
will be detrimental to your daughter in the long run,
that parenting from your guys's trauma. Not only will it
mean that you guys are very emotionally attached to her,
you guys are less likely to discipline in moments because

(02:48:13):
there will be worries of or am I going to
abuse her? Is she going to have a bad childhood
the way I had a bad childhood? So it may
also impact the way that she views herself. If you
guys have a lack of confidence in her trying things
because there's a fear there, or an avoidance of conversations

(02:48:36):
because you think that she may not be able to
handle it, that will will create a lack of confidence
within herself. We have a pandemic epidemic, I don't know
what you would call it, of children who are very
very delayed in speech, reading, motor skills because parents are
doing too much for their children.

Speaker 9 (02:49:00):
Right or not enough.

Speaker 8 (02:49:03):
So I know I interrupted you guys right off the bat,
but I do want to point out that from my understanding,
that is a trauma based thing to be worried in
that sense.

Speaker 6 (02:49:14):
No, that's exactly how I feel about it.

Speaker 10 (02:49:15):
And that's why, like I started therapy at the beginning
of this year, when she's gonna start therapy is because.

Speaker 6 (02:49:24):
Like something I came to realize is.

Speaker 10 (02:49:26):
Like other people's problems, and like even the men's group
at times for me was almost like a distraction from
actually doing what needed to be done or thought about for.

Speaker 6 (02:49:37):
My own life.

Speaker 10 (02:49:39):
And I had to like start actually focusing on me
and what I have going on and what I need
to do and.

Speaker 6 (02:49:45):
Take more responsibility because.

Speaker 10 (02:49:49):
Like I even feel like I do it with audiobooks
sometimes you're like listening to different like yeah, it's good information,
it kind of helps me or changes my mind sometimes.
But I can tell how some times I'm even using
that as a distraction, but it's like a justified distraction
where I'm like I'm doing something good or I'm learning
or like something productive.

Speaker 6 (02:50:08):
I guess.

Speaker 1 (02:50:12):
It sounds like a lack of goals to me.

Speaker 2 (02:50:15):
It sounds like you said that a minute ago that
you didn't know where you wanted to go. So you're
using things to fill your time and that's your distraction
and you're justifying the distraction. But you don't have an
actual goal so like and that comes down to vision boards.
It comes down to having the both of you on
the same page about what it is that you're trying
to accomplish that you can hold each other accountable for it.

(02:50:36):
For example, we do this with food because we both
need to lose weight and there's days where I want
dairy Queen and there's days that she wants taco Bell
and sometimes we have to tell each other no because
we are didn't lose weight this week, so dairy Queen's
not an option. Or you know, taco bell happened yesterday,
we don't need it again today and tonight and tomorrow
morning for breakfast. She likes to buckle bell a lot,

(02:51:04):
but having that accountability partner goes a long way. But
you guys have to be on the same page for that.
But you need to know where you're going or you're
just gonna wander lost until something happens and life doesn't
happen to you. Life happens because you make it happen.

Speaker 10 (02:51:17):
So well, that's something my therapist told me and why
I started planning my weeks out because she was like,
you know, you can either have a plan for life
or life will have a plan for you.

Speaker 2 (02:51:26):
So yeah, I like like the analogy that if you
if you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

Speaker 9 (02:51:38):
I just I can tell.

Speaker 1 (02:51:42):
I want to play with it.

Speaker 6 (02:51:49):
So is there anything else.

Speaker 19 (02:51:52):
That really just.

Speaker 6 (02:51:56):
You're gonna start planning together.

Speaker 1 (02:51:59):
Steamwork. Going to make one suggestion. I know I've already
established them. Not like a financial wizard or anything like that.
But one thing that I have done that helped me
a lot is like like reverse engineer. Like if you
say your goal is to move out in six months,
how much money you need in that six months, so

(02:52:19):
like a thousand dollars a month in this scenario, then
like take that and like figure out what you need
to put away for that goal first before you do
any of the spending. And then whether like he suggested,
whether it's taking on more work to make up that
money or cutting costs, but like make that.

Speaker 10 (02:52:39):
Right, like making that the first thing you put into
the like the profit.

Speaker 1 (02:52:43):
I don't know if you guys know about that, but
it's like I need to save this first. I did
that in my business with like when I wanted to
buy a new truck, the truck payment was coming out
of my expenses, months and months before I bought the
new truck. So then once it once, once I made
that commitment to buying the truck, I was already acclimated
to making that thing. So it helped me a lot.

(02:53:07):
I like it. I'm not a wizard on finances, but
that does, you know. It's kind of like the reverse
thinking is like I need to This has to come first,
you know, and then when you like if if you
can actually remove the money from your spending first, like
even if it's giving it to her like two hundred
bucks a week cash, put it in her you know,
she's gonna put it in a lock box or something,

(02:53:29):
and then we're not touching that. And then door dash
becomes not an option because you don't have it right
or spending money, you know, buying whatever it is that
you live on frivolously or whatever. Getting the coffee, like
if you don't actually have the money, then you can't
and you've already put it in the box.

Speaker 2 (02:53:48):
It's real easy beans and ramen noodles. It's not healthy,
but it's cheap as fuck. And you'd be surprised what
you can say when you're not door dashing or eating out.

Speaker 6 (02:54:01):
It's astonishing.

Speaker 1 (02:54:01):
I've done the numbers to be in a position.

Speaker 6 (02:54:04):
It's astonishing, I've done the numbers.

Speaker 1 (02:54:05):
Yeah, for me, I have to be in a position
that I can't physically buy it, like my card will
not go you know what I mean, like, and so
I have to remove that from thee and just pull
it out right exactly. So if I you know, if
I go to swipe my bank card and it goes
to climb, well, then now I'm not walking.

Speaker 6 (02:54:23):
Out with those girls or whatever.

Speaker 1 (02:54:25):
Obviously you don't want to do it with the groceries,
but you get what I'm saying, Like, I can't buy
the thing, so that helps me a lot.

Speaker 6 (02:54:33):
No, I can see that for me.

Speaker 1 (02:54:36):
It seems like an important goal to reach in your situation.
For her especially, you guys, got anything else?

Speaker 6 (02:54:49):
I say, Nope, We're on to the next one.

Speaker 1 (02:54:52):
Yep.

Speaker 8 (02:54:52):
We you guys have twenty four hours. We'll be doing
the one on one tomorrow. So if you guys think
of anything else can definitely be brought up, Like, yeah, understandable.
Have you seen those challenges where men hold up big
old pints of beer like that?

Speaker 9 (02:55:15):
And like whoever can hold out the longest ones? I
don't know how.

Speaker 8 (02:55:19):
I don't know how dudes do that because I'm sitting
over here with this microphone struggling it.

Speaker 2 (02:55:26):
Is whiskey smaller. Al Right, guys, we'll see you on
the next one.

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