October 10, 2023 • 55 mins
Ever wonder about the real benefits of plant-based cooking on your health and well-being? Well, we did too so we turned to plant-based nutrition expert Robina Barlow for some answers. Robina strongly believes that a plant-based diet is the best way to attain optimal health, prevent/reverse disease, and she loves sharing this information with others. She also shares some easy ways to turn that Sunday Soul Food dinner into a plant-based delight!
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Glenda.
And I'm Lisa.
And we are Two Black Moms and aMic.
Between us, we have six kids,four boys and two girls.
And we're here to talk to youabout everything from diapers to
degrees.
Welcome to our podcast.
Welcome to our podcast.
(00:20):
Today, we've got Robin O.
Barlow, and we're going to talkabout vegan lifestyle and vegan
diets, everything vegan.
Robinette is a certifiedlicensed Food for Life
instructor.
She has a certificate inplant-based nutrition from the
T.
Colin Campbell Center forNutrition Studies.
She attended the Forks OverKnives Plant-Based Cooking
(00:41):
School at the Ruby CookingSchool.
She is certified in diabetesprevention as a lifestyle coach,
and she teaches classes with theAfrican American Health Program
in Montgomery County, Maryland,and she teaches Food for Life
classes throughout the D.C.
metropolitan area.
Robinette, thanks so much forjoining us today.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
(01:03):
We're really excited to talk toyou because we've really been
interested in exploring what itmeans to be vegan and how hard
it is to adopt a vegan lifestyleand like the benefits of it.
So can you tell me how you gotstarted in this space?
Yes.
So about eight years ago or alittle bit more, I went to my
(01:23):
primary care physician and Andthey did a workup and what have
you.
And as the doctor went over mynumbers, the labs with me, he
said, you know, you're in prettygood health, but your numbers
are starting to rise.
In other words, your bloodpressure's going up a little
bit.
Your cholesterol is up.
(01:43):
Your weight is up a little bit.
But you're good.
You're good.
There's nothing to do until youneed, you know, some medicine.
And then I'll prescribe it foryou.
So you're pretty good.
And I thought, that does notsound right to me.
I want to know what I can dobetween now and then to
hopefully prevent that from evercoming.
There are a couple of thingsthat influenced me.
(02:05):
One is we had a cousin who hadall sorts of medical issues, but
had come back by changing hisdiet.
And I saw that.
I was impressed.
When I made food, I would makevegan food because I knew that
that's what was being eaten.
And one day I was also shockedbecause he said no oil.
And I thought, what?
(02:27):
Anyway, I started doing a lot ofresearch and I found the
Physicians Committee forResponsible Medicine, and I call
it PCRM.
They're interested in humanhealth, animal health and
well-being.
And they do study, they do a lotof studies on the effects of
food on lifestyle and food onhealth.
(02:48):
And they had a program wherethey taught us cooking skills,
you know, nutrition and cookingskills to help us live a better
life.
My interest was just really,really peaked.
I went to those classes.
I learned a lot from them interms of food and nutrition.
They were teaching a class.
You could get certified learningthat information.
(03:10):
And I applied to do that.
I've thought this is going tohelp me.
It's going to help people Ilove.
It's going to help our Blackpopulation who is suffering from
many chronic diseases due tofood mostly.
It's interesting too, because alot of people are told, you
know, you're on the brink ofthis and you're on the brink of
that, but you really took it tothe next level by really
(03:32):
drilling down on how diet cankind of explained as the
inevitable trajectory if youmake no changes, right?
So I was also greatlyinfluenced.
I've always been interested inknowing more about food and its
relationship to health.
I lost my mother when she was42.
And to me, that's unfathomable.
(03:53):
And I thought, why did thishappen?
She had chronic issues.
I learned something from that.
And I stopped eating red meat atthat time.
But, you know, still chicken,fish and turkey and all that.
And I wasn't eating pork.
And I thought I was in goodshape until that doctor said
things were going in the wrong.
Oh, you stopped eating red meatbefore you got the diagnosis
(04:15):
from your doctor.
Oh, yeah.
The red meat was when I was 20,you know, but I ate other
things.
So that's not to say peoplecan't eat that.
But for me, I did that and itworked.
Well, did you go vegan rightafter you talked to your doctor
or was that over a process overa period of time?
Oh, it took a little time.
It's say maybe say early in thatyear.
Oh, within a matter of monthsthen.
(04:36):
You know, I can't rememberexactly the time period, but I
will say I went to see him.
I learned about CRM and whatthey were doing.
And I did other research.
It seems like it was within thatyear.
I said to my family, you knowwhat?
I am making a big change.
And I announced it atThanksgiving.
And I said that was going tohappen in the new year.
(04:58):
And I said, I'll still make theother food, but I will no longer
eat it.
That's kind of how it gotstarted.
And getting the training, notonly from PCRM, but then
reaching out to find out moreabout the Center for Nutrition
Studies.
And I took some classes atanother university online, which
(05:19):
were general nutrition classes.
And the more I learned, the moreI was interested in learning
more.
You're teaching classes now,right?
Yes.
What's the hardest part aboutgetting other people to adopt a
vegan lifestyle?
Yeah, before you answer that,you mentioned early on that you
want to refer to it as aplant-based versus the
vegan-based.
So when we're asking, should werefer to it as plant-based?
(05:42):
Whatever you want, and I willanswer.
And let me make a definition.
Vegan started out being peoplewho did not want to harm
animals.
And then, you know, you haveethical vegans.
They say, I don't want to touchthe animals.
You have environmental vegans,and that includes them too.
And then you have dietaryvegans.
(06:03):
But those who are strictestcover all of that.
I would say I'm a dietary vegan.
And so sometimes I don't usethat because people will say
they'll use the name of one ofthese groups that is very much
into protecting the animals andnot eating the animals.
And that becomes sometimes kindof political.
(06:24):
It's sort of a dividing word forsome people.
It's maybe becoming less so now.
So I like to use plant-basedbecause vegans are plant-based.
But I would say some peoplestretch what plant-based means.
You know, they may add otherthings in with it.
But not to be divisive inconversation and so that people
(06:44):
might listen.
I say plant-based and mostpeople can accept that without
having a visceral reaction.
But I love vegans too.
Yeah.
No, thank you.
Thank you for that clarity.
What are the benefits thatyou've seen?
from transitioning into a vegandiet or plant-based diet.
Just stick with whichever one.
(07:07):
And so the benefits, I'll startwith my own personal benefits,
which is why I'm motivated toteach others.
Within, let's say I startedaround in January, I gave up
everything but salmon.
And salmon was just somethingthat we did at home every week,
you know, on Sundays.
And so I said, I'll still keepeating the same thing with my
(07:29):
husband.
And eventually I said, I'll keepmaking it, but I'm not eating it
anymore.
And so within about threemonths, I went back to the
doctor and all the numbers lookjust fabulous.
Three months.
Wow, that's fast.
It is fast.
But better than that, when youmove out of my realm, there are
(07:50):
people that have seensubstantial changes in their
labs within one month.
Wow.
Because we do things by habit.
We kind of eat the same way overand over.
And when you make radicalchanges, you will see radical
changes in your numbers.
I was trying to reduce my sugarintake.
(08:12):
So I stopped the sugar with thecoffee and I would try to do,
you know, non-sugary whatever.
And I went into like, I was notpleasant to be around
withdrawal, right?
But I have to say, though, afterit took me about three weeks,
but it was much easier afterlike two weeks, three weeks, and
(08:32):
I didn't miss it.
And now I'm not as conscious ofnot having sugar, but like
doesn't bother me to not have somuch sugar anymore.
Like I'm not thinking about itas much, but it's more habitual
now.
for me than it used to be.
And that's excellent.
And so you touch on two points.
One is that when you make achange, it takes a while for it
(08:52):
to become a habit.
And our tastes change.
We want to make the change.
And then when we make thechange, our taste buds change.
And then coming up with a newhabit, it takes time.
And some will say 21 days.
That is a good thing.
And so I know we want to take inless sugar.
(09:13):
I will also say...
You mean the oils?
Fat being oiled, those thingsthat harden.
Polyunsaturated, you don't haveto worry about so much.
And some things that do, infact, harden the saturated fats
at room temperature.
Any of those.
And there's some controversyabout the oils and the healthy
(09:34):
oils.
And there's a why for whateveranswers I give you.
So yes, the fats are important.
You need some, don't need nearlywhat we take.
We were talking a little bitbefore we went on air about how
good soul food is.
Yeah.
And I know I'm like, so duringChristmas and Thanksgiving, you
(09:57):
know, there's certain soul fooddishes that I make for my
parents in particular, you know,the greens with the salty ham
hocks or whatever that you putin there.
Or have you gone to turkey?
Well, yeah.
So I've gone to turkey, smokedturkey.
So I put it in there.
But to me, it's like not thatmuch of a difference, quite
honestly.
Maybe the smoked turkey is alittle bit better, but it still
has a lot of salt in it.
(10:18):
But there's some people who eatthe soul food really good every
day, all the time.
My parents, you know, they grewup on it.
It was like every day for them.
But how do you work with peoplewho, you know, are used to that
style of cooking and, you know,you've kind of got to get them
away from it and into sort of anew style of cooking that's
healthier and better for theirbodies?
So I suggest that people, youcan start with small steps and
(10:42):
work your way up.
For instance, you know, I mightsay, well, and this is in
general, then I'll talk aboutsoul food.
Just say, well, do a meatlessMonday or do a meatless
breakfast or do something likethat.
When it comes to soul food, whatI do with people is say, let's
find substitutes for that.
Substitutes that taste good.
(11:03):
And sometimes those substitutesto me are transition foods.
The substitutes aren't a wholelot better, but they're better.
And then hopefully eventuallythe taste buds begin to change.
And they'll eat it less.
So let me just say I like soulfood.
And so I don't eat it thatoften.
But two things I do.
(11:24):
So greens.
Greens is everybody should beeating greens every day.
There's no reason those greenscan't taste good.
But to make it less fatty, Iwould use seasonings for it.
What I do is I saute rather thanoil.
I saute in low sodium ricebroth, vegetable broth.
And then I will add lots ofgarlic or onion, maybe some red
(11:50):
pepper flakes.
I'm trying to think of what elseI might put out.
Maybe a little liquid smoke.
Okay, not a lot, a little bit.
And, you know, even my non-veganhusband likes those greens.
And that takes us into anothersegue.
Anyway, we'll leave it at that.
(12:10):
So what we do is try to findsubstitutes, essentially.
Mm-hmm.
And the other thing people loveis mac and cheese.
So I have shown different waysto make mac and cheese without
the dairy, without the cheese,and without added oil even.
There are some recipes that willhave that.
(12:31):
You can use a soy in that withsome nutritional yeast, or you
can use some kind of nut cashewand nutritional yeast and some
seasonings and what have youwith the pasta.
And it's not the same.
But when you know you're eatingsomething that's good for you,
that's not artery clogging, youmight consider it.
(12:53):
That's what we try to do.
And I will tell you somethingthat I like I don't make a lot,
like crab cakes.
I'll make crab cakes, but makeit with hearts of palm or either
some artichoke hearts.
And the truth of the matter iswhen you put seasoning into
something, that's similar to theseasoning, say a crab cake comes
(13:17):
with, it brings up the sensethat, okay, I didn't get the
crab cake.
This is pretty darn good.
So what are you saying?
You don't have crab cakeinstead.
It's made with artichoke.
I've had them made withchickpeas.
I've tried that at a Rockville'sfarmer's market.
There is a vegan store thatcomes and sells black bean
(13:38):
patties.
And they also have a patty thatthey call it, Crab cake.
And it's chickpeas and a bunchof different seasonings.
And it's really good.
It's very tasty.
And I've tried it at home too.
So I'm going to have to try theone with the artichokes because
I haven't done that.
Yeah, the artichokes are good.
But what I like even better iswhen I use hearts of palms.
(13:58):
Ah, okay.
So hearts of palms, that worksvery well.
And so that's what we're tryingto do in many instances is find
something that's a goodsubstitute.
And, you know, my husband willsay, well, that was pretty good
for a vegan.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
I don't know if I could do thevegan crab cakes past my
(14:18):
Maryland crab father, who lovescrab cakes, but I would like
them.
I'm sure I would like them.
So what I was going to say is,so there's a soul food
restaurant that I will go to.
I go there almost like for mycheats.
Have you ever been to New Vegan?
(14:39):
N-U and then V-E-G-A-N.
New Vegan Cafe.
There's several now.
There was one in D.C.
on Georgia Avenue.
There's one in College Park onRoute 1.
I think there may be one inVirginia now.
But I will tell you, I took myhusband there, who, again, is
not a vegan, and he tried theircrab cakes and he said, you
(15:01):
know...
I mean, I might be able to dothis.
That's great.
I will get that.
I will try there.
And my kids, everybody in thefamily likes it.
We enjoy that.
You know, if I'm makingsomething at home, I'm sure I'm
putting in less salt and lessthis and less that.
It is better.
And I'll just take thisopportunity to say, make your
(15:22):
food at home as much as you canbecause you control the
ingredients.
That was one of the good thingsthat came out of COVID.
More people cooking at home andeating out less for whatever
reason.
And my reason was, A, I didn'twant to leave my house.
And after seeing all thosedifferent episodes of what comes
out of your mouth when you don'thave a mask on, having someone
(15:44):
else prepare my food kind ofgrossed me out.
That is true.
So A couple of things happenedduring COVID, right?
Some people got really good atmaking food at home and enjoying
it.
And some people got really goodat, you know, ringing up
DoorDash and getting that fooddelivered.
I think the ones who were athome making their own food were
faring better, I believe.
(16:06):
This is anecdotal.
And the others that were eatingout all the time or bringing the
out in, some began to put onweight.
Right.
Because they were eating foodsheavier than what they would
make at home.
You know, with more salt in it,with more fat in it.
I always say you're getting moresugar, fat and salt when you eat
(16:29):
out.
It all tastes good.
So, you know what?
You just mentioned that sugar,fat and salt so that you're
getting more of that by eatingout.
So those also means you shouldbe reducing that while you're
cooking at home, too.
Right.
That is absolutely correct.
And talking about that, that'sone thing that we in class talk
about.
(16:50):
You want to reduce that.
Some people don't know how muchsalt should I have a day?
How much salt should I have aday?
Do you all know?
No, I don't have a clue.
I will tell you that it is amaximum of one teaspoon.
And it should be no more thanthree quarters of a teaspoon.
(17:11):
The recommended amount that youcould have is about 2,300
milligrams, which is about ateaspoon.
And optimally, you would haveabout 1,500.
So most people are getting threetimes what they should, at
least.
And when you go out to eat, Ialways say if the food tastes
really good, oh man, are youkidding me?
(17:32):
And that contributes to highblood pressure, right?
The salt, the sodium.
High blood pressure.
And so you want to be Verycareful about that.
And then high blood pressurecausing heart disease.
It just kind of spirals.
So you want to make sure thatyou control your salt.
You control, and I say fat, andthat includes many added oils
(17:56):
and it includes added sugars.
And so I find it at this pointpretty easy to minimize those
things.
But they are very difficult whenyou learn to cook a certain way.
So you have to convince peoplethat they can cook a different
way and that it'll still begood.
Okay, so you gave us the numberfor salt.
What is the max for sugar andfat?
(18:19):
About six teaspoons of sugar,kind of a max.
And when it comes to fat, andremember, I'm teaching people to
fight chronic disease, toprevent it or to help reverse
it, to lower their risk factors.
And so pretty strict when itcomes to the fat.
You're trying to eat food thatper serving is around three
(18:44):
grams.
That's really low.
Three grams of fat.
When you're eating meat, youcan't do it.
When you're eating cheese, youcan't do it.
But what you're looking at,let's say for a day, maybe about
30 milligrams or something.
It's not a lot.
It's not a lot.
But here's the thing.
What we want to make sure isthat we can eat enough food and
(19:07):
that it is very nutrient dense,but not calorie dense.
That's what we're looking for.
And that will help us achieveall of those goals.
And so there's even a littlechart where it says on this side
of the green, on the red, thisis the green side.
This is the green line.
This is the red line.
And so you want to eat moregreen foods, some yellow foods
(19:29):
and minimally red foods, whichmeat will come into another
saturated fat.
That's one way to do that.
Everyone's concerned aboutportion size, portion control.
I don't really worry about itbecause the foods I eat are
mostly very low fat naturally.
Okay, I appreciate thatinformation.
(19:50):
Thank you very much.
I'm also wondering, you know, wetalked a lot about meat and
giving up meat or reducing ourmeat.
What are some meat alternatives?
For example, my son...
who is a phenomenal cook, hastried on several occasions to
get me to eat tofu.
And you and I have had thisconversation about tofu.
And the only time I've actuallyliked tofu that has been
(20:15):
prepared in my home by my son,not by me, has been like a
scrambled, he like scrambled itand he seasoned it with all
these really good seasonings.
Now that was really good.
But he tried the other day tofool me.
To fool you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because I'm in my office doingwhatever and he's taking over my
(20:35):
kitchen.
I've just given that all up.
He came and he said, there'sthese chicken nuggets that he
makes every now and then becausehe doesn't eat a lot of meat.
So every now and then he'll makeone of these dishes.
And they're really good.
So the other day he said, here,mom, try these.
And I didn't like the way hestarted that conversation.
That was a trigger right there.
(20:57):
And he said, you always told usto be open-minded.
So you'd be open-minded, right?
So I'm like, okay, fine.
So he brought me the littlesauce, you know, that he had
made, you know, from scratchand, and I'm biting into it.
And I'm like, this is tofu,right?
He said, yes, eat it.
(21:17):
And I'm eating it, and it was anacquired taste.
We'd just like to know whatother meat alternatives are out
there for our audience, if theyare like me, who only seems to
like the scramble version oftofu.
I'll eat tofu if it's served tome, but I won't cook it.
I tried cooking it once, but Icould not get it together.
(21:37):
It takes some learning, youknow, to do that.
Tofu is soy.
It's soybean.
Soybean, right.
Yeah, soybean curd.
And so tofu is very nutrientdense.
It's a good substitute for meat.
And they do all sorts of thingswith not only tofu, but with
just soy-based products.
(21:59):
Now, I would say I only, as faras I know, will eat organic,
non-GMO tofu.
Exactly.
I think that's just the safestway.
you know, to go.
Just like people eat a lot oforganic food.
Some do, some don't.
I try, but I'm not always goingto spend that money.
But there are substitutes.
(22:20):
So there are other versions oftofu.
It's not tofu, but soy.
There's edamame.
Oh, I love edamame.
Like lime.
The beans.
Very nutritious for you.
Then there's tempeh, which issoy, not tofu, but it's
fermented.
And there's something calledtempeh bacon.
So you can put a sauce on thatand you can marinate it for
hours and then you cook it andit sort of gives you that
(22:43):
texture.
So I'm saying soy, soy, soy,because there's so many soy.
But outside of that, you can usesome things are made out of
vital wheat gluten.
There's a recipe that I have andyou use that and some seasonings
and then you roll it and then itlooks like you have pepperoni in
the end.
It has all of those seasoningsthat you would find, you know,
(23:03):
associated with pepperoni.
So there's seitan, S-E-I-T-A-N.
It may remind you of a soyproduct, but it's a wheat
product.
And sometimes you will find thatit has been marinated.
And I might put that in withsome noodles, you know, some red
sauce.
I put it in soups and stews.
(23:23):
It looks like it in the packagethat it's neat and it tastes
good.
Now it's not gluten-free.
So if you're getting somethingthat has vital gluten in it or
seitan, then you're goingtowards the wheat side of
things.
But there are other things that,for instance, nuts, depending on
how you prepare them, nuts doesa nice job.
For instance, lasagna, mushroomsalso.
(23:46):
So if I make a lasagna, it'sgoing to have, if my daughter
who's allergic to nuts is home,it's not going to have that in
it.
But let's take a lasagna thatyou're putting spinach in.
You could put tofu, but if not,you can put in a nut based like
walnuts or, as I say, cashewsthat have been ground.
and they taste meat-like.
(24:07):
There are other cheese-typeproducts or substitutes that can
go in.
Mushrooms.
Mushrooms are great in lasagna.
All of those things in.
Lots of spinach, if you likespinach.
You can put other veggies in,broccoli, what have you.
And then you sort of feel likeI'm satiated because I have all
(24:27):
this good stuff in here.
So most plant-based foods arelow in fat naturally.
Some are high.
Those are the ones that I wouldnot overdo, right?
And that would be nuts are verynutritious.
You should eat nuts.
You need omega-3s like chiaseeds and also flaxseed, walnut
(24:48):
have omega-3s.
Those are the balance out ofomega-6s and we'll talk about
that later.
So if you eat those foods,you're in moderation, you're
going to be good.
The other thing that is fat isAvocado.
Oh, yeah.
I love avocado.
Very fatty.
But it's very fatty.
Don't give up your avocado.
Just measure.
(25:09):
I love avocados because, youknow, it's like comfort food
because it's nice and creamy andgood.
And you can put taco chips init.
You know, I will do sometimes ifI'm really hungry, I'll have my
tofu scramble.
But then on top of that, I willhave a whole grain piece of
bread that I've toasted.
kind of smother with someavocado, sprinkle some sunflower
(25:33):
seeds on it, put some seasoningon it, and then maybe even a
lemon juice or lime juice,something like that.
That is very satiating to me.
But I'm not going to eat thatevery day and I'm not going to
eat more than a little bit.
And when I say a little bit,about a quarter of an avocado is
pretty good.
And so let's say you eat more,but then maybe you come back on
(25:55):
something else.
Nuts and seeds are fatty, butgood for you.
Avocado is fatty.
But the point is, everythingelse really isn't.
So you can eat tons and tons andtons and never reach a caloric
max on those foods.
Because you know what I've seenon menus, I'm seeing a little
bit more anyway, is cauliflowersteak.
(26:16):
Yes, I love it.
There's a place that made it,did an excellent job.
I don't know if I can name otherplaces around, but for instance,
moms, they have a lunch counterthey call the Naked Lunch.
And they had the most wonderfulcauliflower steak.
Really?
Yeah.
(26:37):
Organics food store.
Yeah.
I've turned Robert and Dean ontothat like a couple of months
ago.
And now they're obsessed withthe store.
Literally.
And I think now Lisa is now.
Yeah.
Well, I had been there once along time ago and then didn't go
back.
Habitually, I go to other coupleof the grocery stores.
My daughter and I.
So we went over there afterGlenda mentioned it and ended up
(26:59):
buying all the vegetables forour Thanksgiving.
dinner.
Yeah.
I mean, you could take thequality of the vegetable.
I mean, you could just like thesweet potatoes, especially.
Yeah.
It was just very good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Have you eaten at the lunchcounter?
No, I haven't.
No, I haven't, but I'm going togo to Denny's to get this
cauliflower steak.
No, but they don't.
(27:19):
That's what I'm going to tellyou.
They stop.
Oh.
Cauliflower taco.
So I will make a cauliflowersteak at home.
Nice restaurants now areproviding cauliflower steak.
So they do have somecauliflower, but I'm missing
that and I want them to bring itback.
Yeah, and it's thick.
It's like, you know, it's sortof meaty.
(27:40):
It is very...
And they would put it on a bedof maybe rice or quinoa.
Yeah.
And they put some like maybe alittle like sauce or something
on it, a little bit of sauce ofsome sort on it.
Lots of veggies.
But you're seeing it not atvegan restaurants.
I mean, these are normal.
I don't want to say normal, butyou know.
Because they want the wholefamily to come.
Yeah.
Well, it's like when the girls,when we would go out to eat, we
(28:01):
would always make sure that wehave some place that I'm still
going to call you Barlow becauseI've done it for so long.
What a vegan option.
Vegan options.
And, you know, she's had.
I have a cauliflower steak at acouple of different restaurants.
The one that comes to mind isDiner, Silver Diner.
Oh, yeah.
They even have a vegan menu.
(28:21):
Now, the Silver, I think, well,they always have vegan food.
But even Silver Diner, Ibelieve, has a vegan menu.
Separate meat that they will letyou choose from.
Wonderful, wonderful.
And the restaurant that we wentout to up in the Shenandoah
Mountains.
Mm-hmm.
They had a cauliflower steak.
I didn't try it because I chosesomething different, but their
(28:43):
food is really good.
You know, but kind of far too,though, you know, we've talked
about all these deliciousalternatives with maybe the
exception of Glinda and the tofuthing.
So we'll talk more about that,but also because I'm very open
to, you know, I given up meatand until a couple of days ago,
we won't talk about that.
(29:03):
In all honesty, we have to talkabout the price of doing this or
the cost of doing this.
We talk a lot about organic andorganic food and what's best and
you know, why organic isimportant.
in most cases, a better option,but it's also a very expensive
option.
We want our listeners to be ableto eat this plant-based diet
(29:26):
without going broke.
So that's a good point.
And what I will say is you cando that.
You can do that.
First of all, these days,organic is a luxury.
Right.
Buying organic is pretty much aluxury.
It's expensive and it's reallyexpensive now that we're in this
period of sort of inflationarytimes.
(29:48):
So the cost of food in generalhas gone up and that also
impacts organic food.
But I don't know if you're awareof the fact that there is an
organization, a nonprofit calledEWG.org.
That's the Environmental WorkingGroup.
And what they put out each year,is a list of what they call the
(30:11):
dirty dozen or the clean 15.
And so it's all about organicversus non-organic.
There are certain foods that youcan eat.
And the fact that it's notorganic would be of minimal
impact to your diet.
And so don't spend your money onthe organic version.
But some things are veryimportant that they be organic.
(30:35):
And you still may choose not togo that way.
And if you don't go that way,it's probably going to be okay
because you're eating better byeating plant-based foods,
period, anyway.
So an example is, and I don'tknow what this year's list is,
but bananas, you're not going toeat the banana peel.
You get rid of that.
(30:56):
So if it's not organic, they mayhave sprayed it with pesticide,
but you're taking that peel off.
So you have a better chance ofhaving a clean banana.
Whereas strawberries areprobably on the dirty dozen.
And that is because if it getssprayed, it gets sprayed
directly and you're just goingto eat whatever's on there.
So it's nice to look at thatlist.
(31:18):
They also go beyond that to talkabout cosmetics.
They do a lot of testing andthen they let people know.
So tell me, why should we beconcerned about pesticides on
our food?
Because they put toxins in ourbodies.
If you want to talk about thattoxin.
And so, which is a good point,you know, so there are
environmental toxins that hurtnot just the animals.
(31:41):
We're animals too, actually.
So it would hurt the otheranimals, the non-humankind to
eat them.
Sometimes toxins get in you andthey don't get out.
One reason to eat plant-based isbecause part of what plant-based
foods do is take the toxins outof your body.
They have fiber.
The fiber helps things slide onout.
(32:02):
And also...
All of those foods help yourgut, which influences your
health, period.
And so we don't want toxins.
We want as little, as few toxinsas possible because they impact
our health negatively.
They can, they can.
So what about the preventing forthe organic food?
(32:24):
And you may not know, but fororganic foods that have fewer
pesticides on it, how is thatfood protected from then, you
know, bugs and pests?
There are such things as organictreatments.
In fact, for our grass now inMontgomery County, you know,
they can't use certainpesticides there because they've
determined that it's harmful.
(32:45):
And so our lawn care companieshave had to make changes in how
they put preparations on yourlawn.
It is recognized, and I willsay, harking back to Rachel,
Carson talked about pesticides.
You know, I have the 50thanniversary of the book that she
wrote on Silent Spring, ifanyone ever looks at that.
(33:06):
And so it's kind of a warning.
And so we do what we can toinfluence what happens.
And, you know, I've seen theselike sort of growth hormone
vegetables, these sort of likereally huge strawberries, you
know, like really huge tomatoes.
I mean, in terms of the growthhormones for fruits and
vegetables...
What's kind of the thinkingabout that?
(33:28):
Yeah.
Well, if you're getting organic,they probably aren't going to be
those supersites.
And so just be aware of it, butyou're still getting nutrients
that are good for your body fromthem.
You're getting, and each ofthose, the colors, you should be
eating colors of the rainbowbecause with the colors of the
rainbow, you're gettingantioxidants.
Yeah.
But are the growth hormones okayin fruits and vegetables?
(33:50):
Well- Are they okay?
I would say I don't have atechnical answer for you, a
scientific answer.
But I would say that anythingthat is not natural, you know,
not only do they have thehormones, they also get glazed
with something, you know.
I eat a variety.
I eat a variety and I reallydon't worry about it because I'm
(34:12):
eating a variety.
And the other thing is the foodthat I'm eating is plant-based,
full of nutrients.
what they call nutrient densefoods, elements to it.
And also it just has a lot of,again, antioxidants and they
take toxins out of our body.
They help us fight freeradicals, which will be helpful
against cancers.
(34:34):
And so I'm more concerned aboutthe hormones in the milk we
drink than what's on thevegetables.
But I'm concerned about thattoo.
So you want to wash yourvegetables as much as you can,
but some things get inside.
So what you do is eat a varietyand hopefully your body, which
is fighting cancer every day,really, your body is strong in
(34:57):
its immunity towards variousthings that may come through.
That's great advice.
Thank you so very much.
Now, moving on to the otherthing people worry about.
Well, actually, maybe notpeople, but those who are like
myself, who was always in someweight loss journey is the
amount of protein that one eats.
needs to consume, how do you getthat in a plant-based diet?
(35:23):
Let's start with this.
We really don't have to worrymuch about protein because if we
eat a well-balanced diet, and tome that includes vegetables,
especially dark leafy greens,legumes, which includes peas,
beans, And well, peanuts too,but peas and beans and lentils.
(35:47):
Lentils should be number one.
So nutrient dense.
And fruit and whole grains.
If you get a good mix of thatevery day, you're going to get,
believe it or not, and get somenuts in there and what have you.
And seeds, you're going to getthe protein that you need.
Now that may sound odd, butthink about this.
(36:07):
The animals that we eat to getour protein from, how do they
get their protein?
They eat green stuff and berriesand things and what have you.
Yeah, like the 20-something deerin my backyard.
Yeah, and then we eat them.
What we're eating areherbivores.
We don't eat the ones thataren't herbivores.
Yeah, that's true.
Right, right, right.
Yeah, we're eating theherbivores who are nice and
(36:31):
healthy to some extent, or wethink they are, because they eat
the things we should be eating.
So they're sort of oursecondary, you know, we're
eating stuff secondhand.
So just think about that.
And so what do we get from them?
We get the things that we needand some that we don't.
We get the fat that we don'tneed.
We get their cholesterol, whichdoesn't mean it's our
(36:52):
cholesterol, but it's our fat.
So we get their fat.
So we get the nutrients we needand then what we don't need.
We go straight to the sourceourselves.
We skip the fat and theircholesterol and we just get what
we need.
That is actually a good kind ofanalogy because I have to say,
okay, I know we're talking aboutvegan eating, but the best
(37:12):
steaks that I ever have are theones that are grass fed.
Yes.
And all natural.
Those are the best steaks.
And you make the perfect point,Robina.
Skip the cow, go straight forthe vegetables and the herbs.
(37:35):
I'm going to blow your mind onemore time.
And that is, let's think aboutthe milk we drink.
Hey, I don't drink milk, OK?
Yeah, I'm guilty.
I fed my kids so much milk andnow I kind of feel guilty about
that.
I got pulled into that.
Remember those milk commercialswith the milk mustache?
And then my mother was the same.
(37:55):
You know, we were drunk on milkgrowing up and then my poor kids
had to suffer the same fate.
Yeah.
So here's the thing.
What's wrong with milk?
First of all, let me take youhere.
I don't know if you want to gohere, but I'm going to take you
here.
Why not?
So with the milk, what's wrongwith milk?
Let's start with where do we getmilk from?
(38:17):
We get it from the cows.
And was the milk made for humanconsumption?
No.
No.
What was it made for?
To feed baby calves that need tobe like 600 pounds in a short
period of time.
So somehow we get their milk andall the nutrients we want, but
(38:38):
then we get growth hormones andthings that we don't want that
are good for growing maybelittle things like cancer and
that.
Anyway, I can't speak to ittotally, but I can say there
have been studies showing thatthere's some influence and
especially with the fat and thehormones.
So we have something called alsohormone-related cancers.
(39:01):
People will say, well, justdon't eat the saturated fat so
much and what have you.
But if you're drinking the milk,you're getting hormones that you
didn't really ask for.
And again, that milk was meantfor baby calf.
And the visual here is you haveto keep the calves.
You have to keep the cowslactating in order for us to get
(39:23):
the milk that we need.
And so if we keep themlactating, they got to keep
getting pregnant.
Am I going too far?
We're listening.
You know, they have to staypregnant.
So they keep getting impregnatedbecause that's the way the
industrial complex works.
And then their little calves goover to become little veals.
And so that's what keeps thingsgoing for us.
(39:45):
Then, you know, we could take itto the Amazon and how much land
is being used to grow theanimals that are trying to eat
the greens that we should beeating.
Yeah, that's true.
Okay.
So those are just things tothink about.
But, you know, leave it there.
Do you use any of the milkalternatives?
Yes.
So here's the other thing aboutthe milk and then the milk
(40:06):
alternatives.
No calf or any baby needs milkafter weaning.
Leave that.
So no human being needs milk.
You need calcium.
You need vitamin D.
Maybe the other things theyfortify it with, but you don't
need the milk.
But we like it, right?
(40:26):
And so we want something that Sothere is some approximation of
that.
And so that is why people liketo milk alternatives.
So there are good milkalternatives, but they're not
all going to give you what youget from the milk.
You know, like people use almondmilk.
And I was just looking at thelatest dietary guideline.
They don't mention almond milk,but they do mention soy milk.
(40:50):
So they have respect for soymilk, obviously not respect for
the other, but that doesn't meanthat it's not good because if
you like the flavor of it andyou want something that acts
like milk, but doesn'tnecessarily have the same
properties in it, that's fine.
And they add things, even normalmilk adds vitamin D to it,
right?
Just regular cow's milk.
But so when you get to soy milk,you just need to look at your
(41:13):
nutrition facts on the box andsee what's in it.
Again, I get unsweetened becauseif I want to sweeten it, I can
add that.
I'm going to get something thatis organic.
So soy is a good alternative.
Almond milk is a goodalternative because what are you
looking for in an alternative?
It's not going to give you allthe same vitamins, but you can
(41:36):
get those from where the cowgets them from, which is the
food that you eat from theground.
So let's talk about otheralternatives.
The latest thing, which Ihaven't even tasted, but it's
been around a couple of years, Ithink, is a pea milk, which to
me has...
one of the largest amounts ofprotein from any of those
plant-based milks.
I think it's about seven gramsor eight grams.
(41:58):
I've never seen that before.
Yeah.
So there's pea, which, so oat isgood, but probably four grams
per cup or something like that.
And then you have, but pea milkseems to be pretty rich in the
protein, if that's what you'relooking for, right?
And don't feed the baby the peamilk and all that.
It needs mother's milk untilit's done with milk.
Yeah.
(42:18):
I'm thinking about for myselfand my Cereal in the morning.
So I use soy for my cereal, formy oatmeal.
But I also use almond milk forother things that I milk for.
And on a side note, you know, myyoungest of four is allergic to
dairy.
He grew up without milk.
(42:39):
And, you know, we just founddifferent things that had
calcium and vitamin D in it.
And he's six foot, so.
Yeah.
You know, our industries arereally good at marketing their
stuff.
You know, there's no jingle foreating a banana or drinking
anything outside of the dairymilk.
Yeah.
I mean, I have to admit, I fellinto that whole milk marketing
(43:01):
thing.
I will never forget.
We had to drink milk every daywhen I was in college.
elementary school.
Right, milk and graham crackers.
I love the graham crackers, butcouldn't stand the milk.
Well, three quarters of thepopulation, maybe not in the
U.S., but in the world, can'ttolerate milk.
(43:22):
And they didn't have milk totolerate.
So how was that so crucial toour thing?
And yet we lead the world, Ibelieve, in heart disease.
We're pretty close up there.
So there are a lot of things.
If you look at the whole circleof things, A lot of this makes
sense.
Right, if you do look at thewhole circle of things.
And if you look at, if you'veever read any of these books
(43:43):
about the blue zone, and theydon't talk about people in the
blue zone drinking milk.
They talk about them, how theyeat, what they eat, the
moderation that they eat.
A lot of it is plant-based, butnobody ever mentions milk from a
cow.
Well, let me make one commentabout it.
There are cities that arestarting to follow that.
(44:04):
and showing some positiveresults.
It's a positive thing to readabout.
And when it first came about, itwas there were a few in the
United States, but not to theextent that it is now because it
has really grown.
And they're showing thelongevity of people and the
health benefits of doing it.
(44:24):
Yeah, I would say also whenwe're talking about foods from
native places where people areeating better, And I don't know
why Africa wasn't included inthat.
And maybe there's no one placethat they could go and find all
these centenarians.
But we have to think about thefact that very healthy people
(44:45):
came from Africa because theywere eating off the land.
They didn't have all that wehave.
And people actually that comehere from there, according to
studies I've looked at or beenexposed to, many people are
healthier before they come.
And then they adapt to ourlifestyles.
And everybody gets fat andhappy.
You know, I'm just saying thatwe need to understand that
(45:08):
eating off the land is so vital.
But, of course, during slavery,we had to just eat what was
given.
And so we learned to make itgood.
Taste it, right?
Yeah.
The one thing that comes to mindthat I never liked was chitlins.
But I understood it.
(45:29):
I just didn't partay.
But I understood it.
That was a delicacy.
We had family that, you know, mymother used to whisper to me and
she'd say, okay, they havechitlins, but you're not used to
them.
Don't eat very much of thembecause they could make you
sick.
And that was sort of how wehandled it.
So I can tell you they were darngood, but I rarely ate anything.
(45:53):
Yeah, my siblings would smotherthem with hot sauce.
Because my mother would cookthem every Thanksgiving.
They would be part of thepreparation.
I was never a fan, largelybecause my sense of smell is
really strong.
When they're preparing them,they have a true sense of smell.
And for me, it wasn't a pleasantsense of smell.
(46:15):
But there are delicacies.
And you know what?
I found out that other culturesuse them, too.
Like the Cubans and theMexicans, they just didn't call
them chitlins, and they actuallyprepared them differently than a
lot of the southern people.
People prepared them.
So, I mean, my great aunt madechitlins.
My aunt makes chitlins.
Yeah.
I mean, I remember them smellingkind of like vinegary, I think.
(46:37):
Yeah.
I remember that.
Yeah.
But I didn't eat a lot.
I probably just had a littlejust out of respect for my great
aunt who made them.
Yeah.
I had no respect for that.
But after my aunt, like mymother never made them.
Yeah.
And really, you know, and Inever did it.
So it's just that our culturehas come a long way.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
We were forced to eat.
Yeah.
Protein for a second.
(46:58):
Again, we don't need a whole lotextra.
We eat too much already.
Actually, we have overdone it onprotein.
And then some studies have shownthat there have been issues with
people that consume a lot offat, consume too much protein,
the imbalance in what we'redoing.
I was going to mention when youasked also about substitutes,
(47:19):
protein you can get from beans,grains, and mostly lentils,
beans, peas, all that, lots ofprotein.
That's what we should be focusedon.
And I have a recipe that I havemade and taken to other people
sometime, a few other people.
And it's a recipe that, like afew others that sort of lean
(47:41):
towards.
It comes from part of what I do.
It's part of the Food for Lifeprogram that is the
African-American CulinaryHeritage Program.
And so what they try to do, whatwe try to do is prepare foods
that are closer to what peoplemight want to eat rather than to
be told, this is good for you.
Oh, you like gumbo?
(48:02):
Here's some gumbo.
So I make a gumbo.
with the okra in it and all theother seasonings.
I use the filet, what they callfilet, and I use the Creole
seasoning, but there's onewithout salt and one with salt.
And then I use, if you've everseen like the field roast in the
stores in a vegan section and itlooks like little sausages, they
(48:25):
have something, one is maybemaple applewood, but they have
nice flavors to them, hickory.
And you cut them up and put themin.
That's your meat.
And those are mostly either awheat or soy-based product.
And just put them into yoursauce.
Now you have the chewability.
You have all of the nicevegetables that you want to have
(48:49):
and all the seasonings that youwant to have in a gumbo.
Does it taste just like gumbo?
Of course not.
But if you're giving up eatingmeat all the time, you might
say, well, maybe I'll try this.
There's another recipe ofsunrise biscuits because people
like biscuits.
What does it sunrise biscuitshave in them?
(49:10):
Unbleached wheat.
I'm sure we put soy in it, soymilk in it.
It uses a biscuit, a veganbiscuit.
Do I use this quick for anythingother than that recipe?
No, because I want whole grainsin my food.
However, I think of it, again,as a transition food.
(49:31):
You meet people where they are,bring them over a little bit,
and they may find other recipesthat they like.
Pancakes, you know, we put somepancakes in there, and you can
have vegan pancakes anytime.
We're just making it withslightly different ingredients.
There was also some kind oftrail stew we made.
Just some different flavors thatharken back to food.
(49:54):
something that reminds you ofmaybe it's New Orleans or soul
food or what have you.
Is there a website or a socialmedia site that might have some
recipes that people might beinterested in trying out?
So I teach classes each week andpeople can sign up if they're in
Montgomery County.
The group that I work with isthe African American Health
(50:15):
Program of Montgomery County.
And if you just Google AAHP ofMoCo, you will get it.
And from there, They have aprogram and I teach, show all
the recipes and what have you.
Beyond that, PCRM, thePhysicians Committee for
Responsible Medicine, if youGoogle them and you ask for
(50:37):
recipes, you will find a millionrecipes that are vegan.
And then there are books that Ishare recipes from with people
like Sweet Potato Soul by JanaeClaiborne.
She's in the Atlanta area, andshe has some wonderful candied
yam, black-eyed pea hummus,tender method green collard
(51:01):
greens, skillet cornbread.
So there are some Blackinfluencers and chefs in that
regard.
And so I think people can findsomething that they're looking
for.
What do people want to reach outto you, Robyn?
How do they do that?
So fortunately, I have what I'mgoing to call a just-in-time
(51:21):
social media.
And so I can be reached on RKBarlow Plant-Based Coach.
And when you go there, you canalso find some information.
And I'm just getting it going.
But I can also be reached at aplant-based coach.
at gmail.com.
(51:42):
But again, if you go to thesocial media, the Instagram,
rkbarlowplantbasedcoach, youwill get to more information and
I'll be posting informationregularly about upcoming
classes.
So not only do I do classesthrough the African American
(52:02):
Health Program, but I do othercommunity classes.
Most of my classes right now arevia Zoom.
I can be reached.
And there are many classofferings.
And again, PCRM is a goodreference if you just want to
get some recipes.
When I think about the factthat, you know, you do get test
results back and doctors do tellyou, oh, you're okay when they
(52:24):
see that you're on a borderline,you know, and the first thing
they want to do is give youmeds, right?
Yes.
And then when I talk to myfriends who are pharmacists,
they're like, why are you takingthat?
Don't take that.
That stuff is hard.
I mean, they may be giving it tosomeone else.
I mean, you know, I went tocollege with them, so they're my
friends.
So I was like, well, what's theinteractions with this or that?
And they give me this wholebreakdown of you got to find
(52:46):
some other alternative.
She said, but I'm not going totell everybody that because, you
know, I am a pharmacist.
I just want you to know that Iappreciate that you came on
today in your busy schedule andyou're sharing this with us.
But even more, I appreciate thefact that you've been sharing
this with me for some time.
It's not an easy journey to beon, but it's the right journey
(53:10):
to be on with adding moreplant-based to your diet.
Some people, like your husband,he still eats his meat, but he
has increased his plant-basedintake.
And I watched that journey too.
And he's like, he's like, I'm onmy steak.
You go ahead and have yourcauliflower steak, you know, or
our kids, our daughters would belike, what is happening here?
(53:33):
But we've all come around andappreciate that what you have
done and what you are willing toshare with our listening
audience and your friends.
So I just wanted to say thankyou.
And Robert, You know, one of myfour absolutely loves talking to
her about food.
And when he started to talk toDanny about it in our recent
(53:55):
trip to Mexico, Danny was like,no, I'm not my mother.
I eat meat.
Well, you know, I will say,though, sometimes you learn a
harder way, but the ears areopen because I see some changes.
You know, I didn't bring them upthis way, but I didn't give them
a lot of meat.
I didn't give them any red meat,but then as they got older and I
(54:18):
wasn't always in charge, that'sokay.
They know I've been in their earand now I'm backing off and
letting them just see, lettingthem see.
Robin, and we will take yourtips and start our new health
journey.
And we hope that everyone willdo that.
(54:38):
Thanks for joining us in ourpodcast today.
Be sure to check us out at ourwebsite at
www.twoblackmomsandamic.com,where we hope that you will
subscribe.
You can also hear this and ourother podcasts on Google
Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio,Amazon Audible, and Podchaser.
(54:59):
If you like what you hear, wehope you'll give a great review.
Hey, thanks for joining ustoday.
This is Glenda.
And this is Lisa.
Two black moms and a mic andwe're signing off.
Hi, I'm Glenda.
And I'm Lisa.
And we are Two Black Moms and aMic.
Between us, we have six kids,four boys and two girls.
And we're here to talk to youabout everything from diapers to
degrees.
Welcome to our podcast.
Welcome to our podcast.
(00:20):
Today, we've got Robin O.
Barlow, and we're going to talkabout vegan lifestyle and vegan
diets, everything vegan.
Robinette is a certifiedlicensed Food for Life
instructor.
She has a certificate inplant-based nutrition from the
T.
Colin Campbell Center forNutrition Studies.
She attended the Forks OverKnives Plant-Based Cooking
(00:41):
School at the Ruby CookingSchool.
She is certified in diabetesprevention as a lifestyle coach,
and she teaches classes with theAfrican American Health Program
in Montgomery County, Maryland,and she teaches Food for Life
classes throughout the D.C.
metropolitan area.
Robinette, thanks so much forjoining us today.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
(01:03):
We're really excited to talk toyou because we've really been
interested in exploring what itmeans to be vegan and how hard
it is to adopt a vegan lifestyleand like the benefits of it.
So can you tell me how you gotstarted in this space?
Yes.
So about eight years ago or alittle bit more, I went to my
(01:23):
primary care physician and Andthey did a workup and what have
you.
And as the doctor went over mynumbers, the labs with me, he
said, you know, you're in prettygood health, but your numbers
are starting to rise.
In other words, your bloodpressure's going up a little
bit.
Your cholesterol is up.
(01:43):
Your weight is up a little bit.
But you're good.
You're good.
There's nothing to do until youneed, you know, some medicine.
And then I'll prescribe it foryou.
So you're pretty good.
And I thought, that does notsound right to me.
I want to know what I can dobetween now and then to
hopefully prevent that from evercoming.
There are a couple of thingsthat influenced me.
(02:05):
One is we had a cousin who hadall sorts of medical issues, but
had come back by changing hisdiet.
And I saw that.
I was impressed.
When I made food, I would makevegan food because I knew that
that's what was being eaten.
And one day I was also shockedbecause he said no oil.
And I thought, what?
(02:27):
Anyway, I started doing a lot ofresearch and I found the
Physicians Committee forResponsible Medicine, and I call
it PCRM.
They're interested in humanhealth, animal health and
well-being.
And they do study, they do a lotof studies on the effects of
food on lifestyle and food onhealth.
(02:48):
And they had a program wherethey taught us cooking skills,
you know, nutrition and cookingskills to help us live a better
life.
My interest was just really,really peaked.
I went to those classes.
I learned a lot from them interms of food and nutrition.
They were teaching a class.
You could get certified learningthat information.
(03:10):
And I applied to do that.
I've thought this is going tohelp me.
It's going to help people Ilove.
It's going to help our Blackpopulation who is suffering from
many chronic diseases due tofood mostly.
It's interesting too, because alot of people are told, you
know, you're on the brink ofthis and you're on the brink of
that, but you really took it tothe next level by really
(03:32):
drilling down on how diet cankind of explained as the
inevitable trajectory if youmake no changes, right?
So I was also greatlyinfluenced.
I've always been interested inknowing more about food and its
relationship to health.
I lost my mother when she was42.
And to me, that's unfathomable.
(03:53):
And I thought, why did thishappen?
She had chronic issues.
I learned something from that.
And I stopped eating red meat atthat time.
But, you know, still chicken,fish and turkey and all that.
And I wasn't eating pork.
And I thought I was in goodshape until that doctor said
things were going in the wrong.
Oh, you stopped eating red meatbefore you got the diagnosis
(04:15):
from your doctor.
Oh, yeah.
The red meat was when I was 20,you know, but I ate other
things.
So that's not to say peoplecan't eat that.
But for me, I did that and itworked.
Well, did you go vegan rightafter you talked to your doctor
or was that over a process overa period of time?
Oh, it took a little time.
It's say maybe say early in thatyear.
Oh, within a matter of monthsthen.
(04:36):
You know, I can't rememberexactly the time period, but I
will say I went to see him.
I learned about CRM and whatthey were doing.
And I did other research.
It seems like it was within thatyear.
I said to my family, you knowwhat?
I am making a big change.
And I announced it atThanksgiving.
And I said that was going tohappen in the new year.
(04:58):
And I said, I'll still make theother food, but I will no longer
eat it.
That's kind of how it gotstarted.
And getting the training, notonly from PCRM, but then
reaching out to find out moreabout the Center for Nutrition
Studies.
And I took some classes atanother university online, which
(05:19):
were general nutrition classes.
And the more I learned, the moreI was interested in learning
more.
You're teaching classes now,right?
Yes.
What's the hardest part aboutgetting other people to adopt a
vegan lifestyle?
Yeah, before you answer that,you mentioned early on that you
want to refer to it as aplant-based versus the
vegan-based.
So when we're asking, should werefer to it as plant-based?
(05:42):
Whatever you want, and I willanswer.
And let me make a definition.
Vegan started out being peoplewho did not want to harm
animals.
And then, you know, you haveethical vegans.
They say, I don't want to touchthe animals.
You have environmental vegans,and that includes them too.
And then you have dietaryvegans.
(06:03):
But those who are strictestcover all of that.
I would say I'm a dietary vegan.
And so sometimes I don't usethat because people will say
they'll use the name of one ofthese groups that is very much
into protecting the animals andnot eating the animals.
And that becomes sometimes kindof political.
(06:24):
It's sort of a dividing word forsome people.
It's maybe becoming less so now.
So I like to use plant-basedbecause vegans are plant-based.
But I would say some peoplestretch what plant-based means.
You know, they may add otherthings in with it.
But not to be divisive inconversation and so that people
(06:44):
might listen.
I say plant-based and mostpeople can accept that without
having a visceral reaction.
But I love vegans too.
Yeah.
No, thank you.
Thank you for that clarity.
What are the benefits thatyou've seen?
from transitioning into a vegandiet or plant-based diet.
Just stick with whichever one.
(07:07):
And so the benefits, I'll startwith my own personal benefits,
which is why I'm motivated toteach others.
Within, let's say I startedaround in January, I gave up
everything but salmon.
And salmon was just somethingthat we did at home every week,
you know, on Sundays.
And so I said, I'll still keepeating the same thing with my
(07:29):
husband.
And eventually I said, I'll keepmaking it, but I'm not eating it
anymore.
And so within about threemonths, I went back to the
doctor and all the numbers lookjust fabulous.
Three months.
Wow, that's fast.
It is fast.
But better than that, when youmove out of my realm, there are
(07:50):
people that have seensubstantial changes in their
labs within one month.
Wow.
Because we do things by habit.
We kind of eat the same way overand over.
And when you make radicalchanges, you will see radical
changes in your numbers.
I was trying to reduce my sugarintake.
(08:12):
So I stopped the sugar with thecoffee and I would try to do,
you know, non-sugary whatever.
And I went into like, I was notpleasant to be around
withdrawal, right?
But I have to say, though, afterit took me about three weeks,
but it was much easier afterlike two weeks, three weeks, and
(08:32):
I didn't miss it.
And now I'm not as conscious ofnot having sugar, but like
doesn't bother me to not have somuch sugar anymore.
Like I'm not thinking about itas much, but it's more habitual
now.
for me than it used to be.
And that's excellent.
And so you touch on two points.
One is that when you make achange, it takes a while for it
(08:52):
to become a habit.
And our tastes change.
We want to make the change.
And then when we make thechange, our taste buds change.
And then coming up with a newhabit, it takes time.
And some will say 21 days.
That is a good thing.
And so I know we want to take inless sugar.
(09:13):
I will also say...
You mean the oils?
Fat being oiled, those thingsthat harden.
Polyunsaturated, you don't haveto worry about so much.
And some things that do, infact, harden the saturated fats
at room temperature.
Any of those.
And there's some controversyabout the oils and the healthy
(09:34):
oils.
And there's a why for whateveranswers I give you.
So yes, the fats are important.
You need some, don't need nearlywhat we take.
We were talking a little bitbefore we went on air about how
good soul food is.
Yeah.
And I know I'm like, so duringChristmas and Thanksgiving, you
(09:57):
know, there's certain soul fooddishes that I make for my
parents in particular, you know,the greens with the salty ham
hocks or whatever that you putin there.
Or have you gone to turkey?
Well, yeah.
So I've gone to turkey, smokedturkey.
So I put it in there.
But to me, it's like not thatmuch of a difference, quite
honestly.
Maybe the smoked turkey is alittle bit better, but it still
has a lot of salt in it.
(10:18):
But there's some people who eatthe soul food really good every
day, all the time.
My parents, you know, they grewup on it.
It was like every day for them.
But how do you work with peoplewho, you know, are used to that
style of cooking and, you know,you've kind of got to get them
away from it and into sort of anew style of cooking that's
healthier and better for theirbodies?
So I suggest that people, youcan start with small steps and
(10:42):
work your way up.
For instance, you know, I mightsay, well, and this is in
general, then I'll talk aboutsoul food.
Just say, well, do a meatlessMonday or do a meatless
breakfast or do something likethat.
When it comes to soul food, whatI do with people is say, let's
find substitutes for that.
Substitutes that taste good.
(11:03):
And sometimes those substitutesto me are transition foods.
The substitutes aren't a wholelot better, but they're better.
And then hopefully eventuallythe taste buds begin to change.
And they'll eat it less.
So let me just say I like soulfood.
And so I don't eat it thatoften.
But two things I do.
(11:24):
So greens.
Greens is everybody should beeating greens every day.
There's no reason those greenscan't taste good.
But to make it less fatty, Iwould use seasonings for it.
What I do is I saute rather thanoil.
I saute in low sodium ricebroth, vegetable broth.
And then I will add lots ofgarlic or onion, maybe some red
(11:50):
pepper flakes.
I'm trying to think of what elseI might put out.
Maybe a little liquid smoke.
Okay, not a lot, a little bit.
And, you know, even my non-veganhusband likes those greens.
And that takes us into anothersegue.
Anyway, we'll leave it at that.
(12:10):
So what we do is try to findsubstitutes, essentially.
Mm-hmm.
And the other thing people loveis mac and cheese.
So I have shown different waysto make mac and cheese without
the dairy, without the cheese,and without added oil even.
There are some recipes that willhave that.
(12:31):
You can use a soy in that withsome nutritional yeast, or you
can use some kind of nut cashewand nutritional yeast and some
seasonings and what have youwith the pasta.
And it's not the same.
But when you know you're eatingsomething that's good for you,
that's not artery clogging, youmight consider it.
(12:53):
That's what we try to do.
And I will tell you somethingthat I like I don't make a lot,
like crab cakes.
I'll make crab cakes, but makeit with hearts of palm or either
some artichoke hearts.
And the truth of the matter iswhen you put seasoning into
something, that's similar to theseasoning, say a crab cake comes
(13:17):
with, it brings up the sensethat, okay, I didn't get the
crab cake.
This is pretty darn good.
So what are you saying?
You don't have crab cakeinstead.
It's made with artichoke.
I've had them made withchickpeas.
I've tried that at a Rockville'sfarmer's market.
There is a vegan store thatcomes and sells black bean
(13:38):
patties.
And they also have a patty thatthey call it, Crab cake.
And it's chickpeas and a bunchof different seasonings.
And it's really good.
It's very tasty.
And I've tried it at home too.
So I'm going to have to try theone with the artichokes because
I haven't done that.
Yeah, the artichokes are good.
But what I like even better iswhen I use hearts of palms.
(13:58):
Ah, okay.
So hearts of palms, that worksvery well.
And so that's what we're tryingto do in many instances is find
something that's a goodsubstitute.
And, you know, my husband willsay, well, that was pretty good
for a vegan.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
I don't know if I could do thevegan crab cakes past my
(14:18):
Maryland crab father, who lovescrab cakes, but I would like
them.
I'm sure I would like them.
So what I was going to say is,so there's a soul food
restaurant that I will go to.
I go there almost like for mycheats.
Have you ever been to New Vegan?
(14:39):
N-U and then V-E-G-A-N.
New Vegan Cafe.
There's several now.
There was one in D.C.
on Georgia Avenue.
There's one in College Park onRoute 1.
I think there may be one inVirginia now.
But I will tell you, I took myhusband there, who, again, is
not a vegan, and he tried theircrab cakes and he said, you
(15:01):
know...
I mean, I might be able to dothis.
That's great.
I will get that.
I will try there.
And my kids, everybody in thefamily likes it.
We enjoy that.
You know, if I'm makingsomething at home, I'm sure I'm
putting in less salt and lessthis and less that.
It is better.
And I'll just take thisopportunity to say, make your
(15:22):
food at home as much as you canbecause you control the
ingredients.
That was one of the good thingsthat came out of COVID.
More people cooking at home andeating out less for whatever
reason.
And my reason was, A, I didn'twant to leave my house.
And after seeing all thosedifferent episodes of what comes
out of your mouth when you don'thave a mask on, having someone
(15:44):
else prepare my food kind ofgrossed me out.
That is true.
So A couple of things happenedduring COVID, right?
Some people got really good atmaking food at home and enjoying
it.
And some people got really goodat, you know, ringing up
DoorDash and getting that fooddelivered.
I think the ones who were athome making their own food were
faring better, I believe.
(16:06):
This is anecdotal.
And the others that were eatingout all the time or bringing the
out in, some began to put onweight.
Right.
Because they were eating foodsheavier than what they would
make at home.
You know, with more salt in it,with more fat in it.
I always say you're getting moresugar, fat and salt when you eat
(16:29):
out.
It all tastes good.
So, you know what?
You just mentioned that sugar,fat and salt so that you're
getting more of that by eatingout.
So those also means you shouldbe reducing that while you're
cooking at home, too.
Right.
That is absolutely correct.
And talking about that, that'sone thing that we in class talk
about.
(16:50):
You want to reduce that.
Some people don't know how muchsalt should I have a day?
How much salt should I have aday?
Do you all know?
No, I don't have a clue.
I will tell you that it is amaximum of one teaspoon.
And it should be no more thanthree quarters of a teaspoon.
(17:11):
The recommended amount that youcould have is about 2,300
milligrams, which is about ateaspoon.
And optimally, you would haveabout 1,500.
So most people are getting threetimes what they should, at
least.
And when you go out to eat, Ialways say if the food tastes
really good, oh man, are youkidding me?
(17:32):
And that contributes to highblood pressure, right?
The salt, the sodium.
High blood pressure.
And so you want to be Verycareful about that.
And then high blood pressurecausing heart disease.
It just kind of spirals.
So you want to make sure thatyou control your salt.
You control, and I say fat, andthat includes many added oils
(17:56):
and it includes added sugars.
And so I find it at this pointpretty easy to minimize those
things.
But they are very difficult whenyou learn to cook a certain way.
So you have to convince peoplethat they can cook a different
way and that it'll still begood.
Okay, so you gave us the numberfor salt.
What is the max for sugar andfat?
(18:19):
About six teaspoons of sugar,kind of a max.
And when it comes to fat, andremember, I'm teaching people to
fight chronic disease, toprevent it or to help reverse
it, to lower their risk factors.
And so pretty strict when itcomes to the fat.
You're trying to eat food thatper serving is around three
(18:44):
grams.
That's really low.
Three grams of fat.
When you're eating meat, youcan't do it.
When you're eating cheese, youcan't do it.
But what you're looking at,let's say for a day, maybe about
30 milligrams or something.
It's not a lot.
It's not a lot.
But here's the thing.
What we want to make sure isthat we can eat enough food and
(19:07):
that it is very nutrient dense,but not calorie dense.
That's what we're looking for.
And that will help us achieveall of those goals.
And so there's even a littlechart where it says on this side
of the green, on the red, thisis the green side.
This is the green line.
This is the red line.
And so you want to eat moregreen foods, some yellow foods
(19:29):
and minimally red foods, whichmeat will come into another
saturated fat.
That's one way to do that.
Everyone's concerned aboutportion size, portion control.
I don't really worry about itbecause the foods I eat are
mostly very low fat naturally.
Okay, I appreciate thatinformation.
(19:50):
Thank you very much.
I'm also wondering, you know, wetalked a lot about meat and
giving up meat or reducing ourmeat.
What are some meat alternatives?
For example, my son...
who is a phenomenal cook, hastried on several occasions to
get me to eat tofu.
And you and I have had thisconversation about tofu.
And the only time I've actuallyliked tofu that has been
(20:15):
prepared in my home by my son,not by me, has been like a
scrambled, he like scrambled itand he seasoned it with all
these really good seasonings.
Now that was really good.
But he tried the other day tofool me.
To fool you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because I'm in my office doingwhatever and he's taking over my
(20:35):
kitchen.
I've just given that all up.
He came and he said, there'sthese chicken nuggets that he
makes every now and then becausehe doesn't eat a lot of meat.
So every now and then he'll makeone of these dishes.
And they're really good.
So the other day he said, here,mom, try these.
And I didn't like the way hestarted that conversation.
That was a trigger right there.
(20:57):
And he said, you always told usto be open-minded.
So you'd be open-minded, right?
So I'm like, okay, fine.
So he brought me the littlesauce, you know, that he had
made, you know, from scratchand, and I'm biting into it.
And I'm like, this is tofu,right?
He said, yes, eat it.
(21:17):
And I'm eating it, and it was anacquired taste.
We'd just like to know whatother meat alternatives are out
there for our audience, if theyare like me, who only seems to
like the scramble version oftofu.
I'll eat tofu if it's served tome, but I won't cook it.
I tried cooking it once, but Icould not get it together.
(21:37):
It takes some learning, youknow, to do that.
Tofu is soy.
It's soybean.
Soybean, right.
Yeah, soybean curd.
And so tofu is very nutrientdense.
It's a good substitute for meat.
And they do all sorts of thingswith not only tofu, but with
just soy-based products.
(21:59):
Now, I would say I only, as faras I know, will eat organic,
non-GMO tofu.
Exactly.
I think that's just the safestway.
you know, to go.
Just like people eat a lot oforganic food.
Some do, some don't.
I try, but I'm not always goingto spend that money.
But there are substitutes.
(22:20):
So there are other versions oftofu.
It's not tofu, but soy.
There's edamame.
Oh, I love edamame.
Like lime.
The beans.
Very nutritious for you.
Then there's tempeh, which issoy, not tofu, but it's
fermented.
And there's something calledtempeh bacon.
So you can put a sauce on thatand you can marinate it for
hours and then you cook it andit sort of gives you that
(22:43):
texture.
So I'm saying soy, soy, soy,because there's so many soy.
But outside of that, you can usesome things are made out of
vital wheat gluten.
There's a recipe that I have andyou use that and some seasonings
and then you roll it and then itlooks like you have pepperoni in
the end.
It has all of those seasoningsthat you would find, you know,
(23:03):
associated with pepperoni.
So there's seitan, S-E-I-T-A-N.
It may remind you of a soyproduct, but it's a wheat
product.
And sometimes you will find thatit has been marinated.
And I might put that in withsome noodles, you know, some red
sauce.
I put it in soups and stews.
(23:23):
It looks like it in the packagethat it's neat and it tastes
good.
Now it's not gluten-free.
So if you're getting somethingthat has vital gluten in it or
seitan, then you're goingtowards the wheat side of
things.
But there are other things that,for instance, nuts, depending on
how you prepare them, nuts doesa nice job.
For instance, lasagna, mushroomsalso.
(23:46):
So if I make a lasagna, it'sgoing to have, if my daughter
who's allergic to nuts is home,it's not going to have that in
it.
But let's take a lasagna thatyou're putting spinach in.
You could put tofu, but if not,you can put in a nut based like
walnuts or, as I say, cashewsthat have been ground.
and they taste meat-like.
(24:07):
There are other cheese-typeproducts or substitutes that can
go in.
Mushrooms.
Mushrooms are great in lasagna.
All of those things in.
Lots of spinach, if you likespinach.
You can put other veggies in,broccoli, what have you.
And then you sort of feel likeI'm satiated because I have all
(24:27):
this good stuff in here.
So most plant-based foods arelow in fat naturally.
Some are high.
Those are the ones that I wouldnot overdo, right?
And that would be nuts are verynutritious.
You should eat nuts.
You need omega-3s like chiaseeds and also flaxseed, walnut
(24:48):
have omega-3s.
Those are the balance out ofomega-6s and we'll talk about
that later.
So if you eat those foods,you're in moderation, you're
going to be good.
The other thing that is fat isAvocado.
Oh, yeah.
I love avocado.
Very fatty.
But it's very fatty.
Don't give up your avocado.
Just measure.
(25:09):
I love avocados because, youknow, it's like comfort food
because it's nice and creamy andgood.
And you can put taco chips init.
You know, I will do sometimes ifI'm really hungry, I'll have my
tofu scramble.
But then on top of that, I willhave a whole grain piece of
bread that I've toasted.
kind of smother with someavocado, sprinkle some sunflower
(25:33):
seeds on it, put some seasoningon it, and then maybe even a
lemon juice or lime juice,something like that.
That is very satiating to me.
But I'm not going to eat thatevery day and I'm not going to
eat more than a little bit.
And when I say a little bit,about a quarter of an avocado is
pretty good.
And so let's say you eat more,but then maybe you come back on
(25:55):
something else.
Nuts and seeds are fatty, butgood for you.
Avocado is fatty.
But the point is, everythingelse really isn't.
So you can eat tons and tons andtons and never reach a caloric
max on those foods.
Because you know what I've seenon menus, I'm seeing a little
bit more anyway, is cauliflowersteak.
(26:16):
Yes, I love it.
There's a place that made it,did an excellent job.
I don't know if I can name otherplaces around, but for instance,
moms, they have a lunch counterthey call the Naked Lunch.
And they had the most wonderfulcauliflower steak.
Really?
Yeah.
(26:37):
Organics food store.
Yeah.
I've turned Robert and Dean ontothat like a couple of months
ago.
And now they're obsessed withthe store.
Literally.
And I think now Lisa is now.
Yeah.
Well, I had been there once along time ago and then didn't go
back.
Habitually, I go to other coupleof the grocery stores.
My daughter and I.
So we went over there afterGlenda mentioned it and ended up
(26:59):
buying all the vegetables forour Thanksgiving.
dinner.
Yeah.
I mean, you could take thequality of the vegetable.
I mean, you could just like thesweet potatoes, especially.
Yeah.
It was just very good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Have you eaten at the lunchcounter?
No, I haven't.
No, I haven't, but I'm going togo to Denny's to get this
cauliflower steak.
No, but they don't.
(27:19):
That's what I'm going to tellyou.
They stop.
Oh.
Cauliflower taco.
So I will make a cauliflowersteak at home.
Nice restaurants now areproviding cauliflower steak.
So they do have somecauliflower, but I'm missing
that and I want them to bring itback.
Yeah, and it's thick.
It's like, you know, it's sortof meaty.
(27:40):
It is very...
And they would put it on a bedof maybe rice or quinoa.
Yeah.
And they put some like maybe alittle like sauce or something
on it, a little bit of sauce ofsome sort on it.
Lots of veggies.
But you're seeing it not atvegan restaurants.
I mean, these are normal.
I don't want to say normal, butyou know.
Because they want the wholefamily to come.
Yeah.
Well, it's like when the girls,when we would go out to eat, we
(28:01):
would always make sure that wehave some place that I'm still
going to call you Barlow becauseI've done it for so long.
What a vegan option.
Vegan options.
And, you know, she's had.
I have a cauliflower steak at acouple of different restaurants.
The one that comes to mind isDiner, Silver Diner.
Oh, yeah.
They even have a vegan menu.
(28:21):
Now, the Silver, I think, well,they always have vegan food.
But even Silver Diner, Ibelieve, has a vegan menu.
Separate meat that they will letyou choose from.
Wonderful, wonderful.
And the restaurant that we wentout to up in the Shenandoah
Mountains.
Mm-hmm.
They had a cauliflower steak.
I didn't try it because I chosesomething different, but their
(28:43):
food is really good.
You know, but kind of far too,though, you know, we've talked
about all these deliciousalternatives with maybe the
exception of Glinda and the tofuthing.
So we'll talk more about that,but also because I'm very open
to, you know, I given up meatand until a couple of days ago,
we won't talk about that.
(29:03):
In all honesty, we have to talkabout the price of doing this or
the cost of doing this.
We talk a lot about organic andorganic food and what's best and
you know, why organic isimportant.
in most cases, a better option,but it's also a very expensive
option.
We want our listeners to be ableto eat this plant-based diet
(29:26):
without going broke.
So that's a good point.
And what I will say is you cando that.
You can do that.
First of all, these days,organic is a luxury.
Right.
Buying organic is pretty much aluxury.
It's expensive and it's reallyexpensive now that we're in this
period of sort of inflationarytimes.
(29:48):
So the cost of food in generalhas gone up and that also
impacts organic food.
But I don't know if you're awareof the fact that there is an
organization, a nonprofit calledEWG.org.
That's the Environmental WorkingGroup.
And what they put out each year,is a list of what they call the
(30:11):
dirty dozen or the clean 15.
And so it's all about organicversus non-organic.
There are certain foods that youcan eat.
And the fact that it's notorganic would be of minimal
impact to your diet.
And so don't spend your money onthe organic version.
But some things are veryimportant that they be organic.
(30:35):
And you still may choose not togo that way.
And if you don't go that way,it's probably going to be okay
because you're eating better byeating plant-based foods,
period, anyway.
So an example is, and I don'tknow what this year's list is,
but bananas, you're not going toeat the banana peel.
You get rid of that.
(30:56):
So if it's not organic, they mayhave sprayed it with pesticide,
but you're taking that peel off.
So you have a better chance ofhaving a clean banana.
Whereas strawberries areprobably on the dirty dozen.
And that is because if it getssprayed, it gets sprayed
directly and you're just goingto eat whatever's on there.
So it's nice to look at thatlist.
(31:18):
They also go beyond that to talkabout cosmetics.
They do a lot of testing andthen they let people know.
So tell me, why should we beconcerned about pesticides on
our food?
Because they put toxins in ourbodies.
If you want to talk about thattoxin.
And so, which is a good point,you know, so there are
environmental toxins that hurtnot just the animals.
(31:41):
We're animals too, actually.
So it would hurt the otheranimals, the non-humankind to
eat them.
Sometimes toxins get in you andthey don't get out.
One reason to eat plant-based isbecause part of what plant-based
foods do is take the toxins outof your body.
They have fiber.
The fiber helps things slide onout.
(32:02):
And also...
All of those foods help yourgut, which influences your
health, period.
And so we don't want toxins.
We want as little, as few toxinsas possible because they impact
our health negatively.
They can, they can.
So what about the preventing forthe organic food?
(32:24):
And you may not know, but fororganic foods that have fewer
pesticides on it, how is thatfood protected from then, you
know, bugs and pests?
There are such things as organictreatments.
In fact, for our grass now inMontgomery County, you know,
they can't use certainpesticides there because they've
determined that it's harmful.
(32:45):
And so our lawn care companieshave had to make changes in how
they put preparations on yourlawn.
It is recognized, and I willsay, harking back to Rachel,
Carson talked about pesticides.
You know, I have the 50thanniversary of the book that she
wrote on Silent Spring, ifanyone ever looks at that.
(33:06):
And so it's kind of a warning.
And so we do what we can toinfluence what happens.
And, you know, I've seen theselike sort of growth hormone
vegetables, these sort of likereally huge strawberries, you
know, like really huge tomatoes.
I mean, in terms of the growthhormones for fruits and
vegetables...
What's kind of the thinkingabout that?
(33:28):
Yeah.
Well, if you're getting organic,they probably aren't going to be
those supersites.
And so just be aware of it, butyou're still getting nutrients
that are good for your body fromthem.
You're getting, and each ofthose, the colors, you should be
eating colors of the rainbowbecause with the colors of the
rainbow, you're gettingantioxidants.
Yeah.
But are the growth hormones okayin fruits and vegetables?
(33:50):
Well- Are they okay?
I would say I don't have atechnical answer for you, a
scientific answer.
But I would say that anythingthat is not natural, you know,
not only do they have thehormones, they also get glazed
with something, you know.
I eat a variety.
I eat a variety and I reallydon't worry about it because I'm
(34:12):
eating a variety.
And the other thing is the foodthat I'm eating is plant-based,
full of nutrients.
what they call nutrient densefoods, elements to it.
And also it just has a lot of,again, antioxidants and they
take toxins out of our body.
They help us fight freeradicals, which will be helpful
against cancers.
(34:34):
And so I'm more concerned aboutthe hormones in the milk we
drink than what's on thevegetables.
But I'm concerned about thattoo.
So you want to wash yourvegetables as much as you can,
but some things get inside.
So what you do is eat a varietyand hopefully your body, which
is fighting cancer every day,really, your body is strong in
(34:57):
its immunity towards variousthings that may come through.
That's great advice.
Thank you so very much.
Now, moving on to the otherthing people worry about.
Well, actually, maybe notpeople, but those who are like
myself, who was always in someweight loss journey is the
amount of protein that one eats.
needs to consume, how do you getthat in a plant-based diet?
(35:23):
Let's start with this.
We really don't have to worrymuch about protein because if we
eat a well-balanced diet, and tome that includes vegetables,
especially dark leafy greens,legumes, which includes peas,
beans, And well, peanuts too,but peas and beans and lentils.
(35:47):
Lentils should be number one.
So nutrient dense.
And fruit and whole grains.
If you get a good mix of thatevery day, you're going to get,
believe it or not, and get somenuts in there and what have you.
And seeds, you're going to getthe protein that you need.
Now that may sound odd, butthink about this.
(36:07):
The animals that we eat to getour protein from, how do they
get their protein?
They eat green stuff and berriesand things and what have you.
Yeah, like the 20-something deerin my backyard.
Yeah, and then we eat them.
What we're eating areherbivores.
We don't eat the ones thataren't herbivores.
Yeah, that's true.
Right, right, right.
Yeah, we're eating theherbivores who are nice and
(36:31):
healthy to some extent, or wethink they are, because they eat
the things we should be eating.
So they're sort of oursecondary, you know, we're
eating stuff secondhand.
So just think about that.
And so what do we get from them?
We get the things that we needand some that we don't.
We get the fat that we don'tneed.
We get their cholesterol, whichdoesn't mean it's our
(36:52):
cholesterol, but it's our fat.
So we get their fat.
So we get the nutrients we needand then what we don't need.
We go straight to the sourceourselves.
We skip the fat and theircholesterol and we just get what
we need.
That is actually a good kind ofanalogy because I have to say,
okay, I know we're talking aboutvegan eating, but the best
(37:12):
steaks that I ever have are theones that are grass fed.
Yes.
And all natural.
Those are the best steaks.
And you make the perfect point,Robina.
Skip the cow, go straight forthe vegetables and the herbs.
(37:35):
I'm going to blow your mind onemore time.
And that is, let's think aboutthe milk we drink.
Hey, I don't drink milk, OK?
Yeah, I'm guilty.
I fed my kids so much milk andnow I kind of feel guilty about
that.
I got pulled into that.
Remember those milk commercialswith the milk mustache?
And then my mother was the same.
(37:55):
You know, we were drunk on milkgrowing up and then my poor kids
had to suffer the same fate.
Yeah.
So here's the thing.
What's wrong with milk?
First of all, let me take youhere.
I don't know if you want to gohere, but I'm going to take you
here.
Why not?
So with the milk, what's wrongwith milk?
Let's start with where do we getmilk from?
(38:17):
We get it from the cows.
And was the milk made for humanconsumption?
No.
No.
What was it made for?
To feed baby calves that need tobe like 600 pounds in a short
period of time.
So somehow we get their milk andall the nutrients we want, but
(38:38):
then we get growth hormones andthings that we don't want that
are good for growing maybelittle things like cancer and
that.
Anyway, I can't speak to ittotally, but I can say there
have been studies showing thatthere's some influence and
especially with the fat and thehormones.
So we have something called alsohormone-related cancers.
(39:01):
People will say, well, justdon't eat the saturated fat so
much and what have you.
But if you're drinking the milk,you're getting hormones that you
didn't really ask for.
And again, that milk was meantfor baby calf.
And the visual here is you haveto keep the calves.
You have to keep the cowslactating in order for us to get
(39:23):
the milk that we need.
And so if we keep themlactating, they got to keep
getting pregnant.
Am I going too far?
We're listening.
You know, they have to staypregnant.
So they keep getting impregnatedbecause that's the way the
industrial complex works.
And then their little calves goover to become little veals.
And so that's what keeps thingsgoing for us.
(39:45):
Then, you know, we could take itto the Amazon and how much land
is being used to grow theanimals that are trying to eat
the greens that we should beeating.
Yeah, that's true.
Okay.
So those are just things tothink about.
But, you know, leave it there.
Do you use any of the milkalternatives?
Yes.
So here's the other thing aboutthe milk and then the milk
(40:06):
alternatives.
No calf or any baby needs milkafter weaning.
Leave that.
So no human being needs milk.
You need calcium.
You need vitamin D.
Maybe the other things theyfortify it with, but you don't
need the milk.
But we like it, right?
(40:26):
And so we want something that Sothere is some approximation of
that.
And so that is why people liketo milk alternatives.
So there are good milkalternatives, but they're not
all going to give you what youget from the milk.
You know, like people use almondmilk.
And I was just looking at thelatest dietary guideline.
They don't mention almond milk,but they do mention soy milk.
(40:50):
So they have respect for soymilk, obviously not respect for
the other, but that doesn't meanthat it's not good because if
you like the flavor of it andyou want something that acts
like milk, but doesn'tnecessarily have the same
properties in it, that's fine.
And they add things, even normalmilk adds vitamin D to it,
right?
Just regular cow's milk.
But so when you get to soy milk,you just need to look at your
(41:13):
nutrition facts on the box andsee what's in it.
Again, I get unsweetened becauseif I want to sweeten it, I can
add that.
I'm going to get something thatis organic.
So soy is a good alternative.
Almond milk is a goodalternative because what are you
looking for in an alternative?
It's not going to give you allthe same vitamins, but you can
(41:36):
get those from where the cowgets them from, which is the
food that you eat from theground.
So let's talk about otheralternatives.
The latest thing, which Ihaven't even tasted, but it's
been around a couple of years, Ithink, is a pea milk, which to
me has...
one of the largest amounts ofprotein from any of those
plant-based milks.
I think it's about seven gramsor eight grams.
(41:58):
I've never seen that before.
Yeah.
So there's pea, which, so oat isgood, but probably four grams
per cup or something like that.
And then you have, but pea milkseems to be pretty rich in the
protein, if that's what you'relooking for, right?
And don't feed the baby the peamilk and all that.
It needs mother's milk untilit's done with milk.
Yeah.
(42:18):
I'm thinking about for myselfand my Cereal in the morning.
So I use soy for my cereal, formy oatmeal.
But I also use almond milk forother things that I milk for.
And on a side note, you know, myyoungest of four is allergic to
dairy.
He grew up without milk.
(42:39):
And, you know, we just founddifferent things that had
calcium and vitamin D in it.
And he's six foot, so.
Yeah.
You know, our industries arereally good at marketing their
stuff.
You know, there's no jingle foreating a banana or drinking
anything outside of the dairymilk.
Yeah.
I mean, I have to admit, I fellinto that whole milk marketing
(43:01):
thing.
I will never forget.
We had to drink milk every daywhen I was in college.
elementary school.
Right, milk and graham crackers.
I love the graham crackers, butcouldn't stand the milk.
Well, three quarters of thepopulation, maybe not in the
U.S., but in the world, can'ttolerate milk.
(43:22):
And they didn't have milk totolerate.
So how was that so crucial toour thing?
And yet we lead the world, Ibelieve, in heart disease.
We're pretty close up there.
So there are a lot of things.
If you look at the whole circleof things, A lot of this makes
sense.
Right, if you do look at thewhole circle of things.
And if you look at, if you'veever read any of these books
(43:43):
about the blue zone, and theydon't talk about people in the
blue zone drinking milk.
They talk about them, how theyeat, what they eat, the
moderation that they eat.
A lot of it is plant-based, butnobody ever mentions milk from a
cow.
Well, let me make one commentabout it.
There are cities that arestarting to follow that.
(44:04):
and showing some positiveresults.
It's a positive thing to readabout.
And when it first came about, itwas there were a few in the
United States, but not to theextent that it is now because it
has really grown.
And they're showing thelongevity of people and the
health benefits of doing it.
(44:24):
Yeah, I would say also whenwe're talking about foods from
native places where people areeating better, And I don't know
why Africa wasn't included inthat.
And maybe there's no one placethat they could go and find all
these centenarians.
But we have to think about thefact that very healthy people
(44:45):
came from Africa because theywere eating off the land.
They didn't have all that wehave.
And people actually that comehere from there, according to
studies I've looked at or beenexposed to, many people are
healthier before they come.
And then they adapt to ourlifestyles.
And everybody gets fat andhappy.
You know, I'm just saying thatwe need to understand that
(45:08):
eating off the land is so vital.
But, of course, during slavery,we had to just eat what was
given.
And so we learned to make itgood.
Taste it, right?
Yeah.
The one thing that comes to mindthat I never liked was chitlins.
But I understood it.
(45:29):
I just didn't partay.
But I understood it.
That was a delicacy.
We had family that, you know, mymother used to whisper to me and
she'd say, okay, they havechitlins, but you're not used to
them.
Don't eat very much of thembecause they could make you
sick.
And that was sort of how wehandled it.
So I can tell you they were darngood, but I rarely ate anything.
(45:53):
Yeah, my siblings would smotherthem with hot sauce.
Because my mother would cookthem every Thanksgiving.
They would be part of thepreparation.
I was never a fan, largelybecause my sense of smell is
really strong.
When they're preparing them,they have a true sense of smell.
And for me, it wasn't a pleasantsense of smell.
(46:15):
But there are delicacies.
And you know what?
I found out that other culturesuse them, too.
Like the Cubans and theMexicans, they just didn't call
them chitlins, and they actuallyprepared them differently than a
lot of the southern people.
People prepared them.
So, I mean, my great aunt madechitlins.
My aunt makes chitlins.
Yeah.
I mean, I remember them smellingkind of like vinegary, I think.
(46:37):
Yeah.
I remember that.
Yeah.
But I didn't eat a lot.
I probably just had a littlejust out of respect for my great
aunt who made them.
Yeah.
I had no respect for that.
But after my aunt, like mymother never made them.
Yeah.
And really, you know, and Inever did it.
So it's just that our culturehas come a long way.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
We were forced to eat.
Yeah.
Protein for a second.
(46:58):
Again, we don't need a whole lotextra.
We eat too much already.
Actually, we have overdone it onprotein.
And then some studies have shownthat there have been issues with
people that consume a lot offat, consume too much protein,
the imbalance in what we'redoing.
I was going to mention when youasked also about substitutes,
(47:19):
protein you can get from beans,grains, and mostly lentils,
beans, peas, all that, lots ofprotein.
That's what we should be focusedon.
And I have a recipe that I havemade and taken to other people
sometime, a few other people.
And it's a recipe that, like afew others that sort of lean
(47:41):
towards.
It comes from part of what I do.
It's part of the Food for Lifeprogram that is the
African-American CulinaryHeritage Program.
And so what they try to do, whatwe try to do is prepare foods
that are closer to what peoplemight want to eat rather than to
be told, this is good for you.
Oh, you like gumbo?
(48:02):
Here's some gumbo.
So I make a gumbo.
with the okra in it and all theother seasonings.
I use the filet, what they callfilet, and I use the Creole
seasoning, but there's onewithout salt and one with salt.
And then I use, if you've everseen like the field roast in the
stores in a vegan section and itlooks like little sausages, they
(48:25):
have something, one is maybemaple applewood, but they have
nice flavors to them, hickory.
And you cut them up and put themin.
That's your meat.
And those are mostly either awheat or soy-based product.
And just put them into yoursauce.
Now you have the chewability.
You have all of the nicevegetables that you want to have
(48:49):
and all the seasonings that youwant to have in a gumbo.
Does it taste just like gumbo?
Of course not.
But if you're giving up eatingmeat all the time, you might
say, well, maybe I'll try this.
There's another recipe ofsunrise biscuits because people
like biscuits.
What does it sunrise biscuitshave in them?
(49:10):
Unbleached wheat.
I'm sure we put soy in it, soymilk in it.
It uses a biscuit, a veganbiscuit.
Do I use this quick for anythingother than that recipe?
No, because I want whole grainsin my food.
However, I think of it, again,as a transition food.
(49:31):
You meet people where they are,bring them over a little bit,
and they may find other recipesthat they like.
Pancakes, you know, we put somepancakes in there, and you can
have vegan pancakes anytime.
We're just making it withslightly different ingredients.
There was also some kind oftrail stew we made.
Just some different flavors thatharken back to food.
(49:54):
something that reminds you ofmaybe it's New Orleans or soul
food or what have you.
Is there a website or a socialmedia site that might have some
recipes that people might beinterested in trying out?
So I teach classes each week andpeople can sign up if they're in
Montgomery County.
The group that I work with isthe African American Health
(50:15):
Program of Montgomery County.
And if you just Google AAHP ofMoCo, you will get it.
And from there, They have aprogram and I teach, show all
the recipes and what have you.
Beyond that, PCRM, thePhysicians Committee for
Responsible Medicine, if youGoogle them and you ask for
(50:37):
recipes, you will find a millionrecipes that are vegan.
And then there are books that Ishare recipes from with people
like Sweet Potato Soul by JanaeClaiborne.
She's in the Atlanta area, andshe has some wonderful candied
yam, black-eyed pea hummus,tender method green collard
(51:01):
greens, skillet cornbread.
So there are some Blackinfluencers and chefs in that
regard.
And so I think people can findsomething that they're looking
for.
What do people want to reach outto you, Robyn?
How do they do that?
So fortunately, I have what I'mgoing to call a just-in-time
(51:21):
social media.
And so I can be reached on RKBarlow Plant-Based Coach.
And when you go there, you canalso find some information.
And I'm just getting it going.
But I can also be reached at aplant-based coach.
at gmail.com.
(51:42):
But again, if you go to thesocial media, the Instagram,
rkbarlowplantbasedcoach, youwill get to more information and
I'll be posting informationregularly about upcoming
classes.
So not only do I do classesthrough the African American
(52:02):
Health Program, but I do othercommunity classes.
Most of my classes right now arevia Zoom.
I can be reached.
And there are many classofferings.
And again, PCRM is a goodreference if you just want to
get some recipes.
When I think about the factthat, you know, you do get test
results back and doctors do tellyou, oh, you're okay when they
(52:24):
see that you're on a borderline,you know, and the first thing
they want to do is give youmeds, right?
Yes.
And then when I talk to myfriends who are pharmacists,
they're like, why are you takingthat?
Don't take that.
That stuff is hard.
I mean, they may be giving it tosomeone else.
I mean, you know, I went tocollege with them, so they're my
friends.
So I was like, well, what's theinteractions with this or that?
And they give me this wholebreakdown of you got to find
(52:46):
some other alternative.
She said, but I'm not going totell everybody that because, you
know, I am a pharmacist.
I just want you to know that Iappreciate that you came on
today in your busy schedule andyou're sharing this with us.
But even more, I appreciate thefact that you've been sharing
this with me for some time.
It's not an easy journey to beon, but it's the right journey
(53:10):
to be on with adding moreplant-based to your diet.
Some people, like your husband,he still eats his meat, but he
has increased his plant-basedintake.
And I watched that journey too.
And he's like, he's like, I'm onmy steak.
You go ahead and have yourcauliflower steak, you know, or
our kids, our daughters would belike, what is happening here?
(53:33):
But we've all come around andappreciate that what you have
done and what you are willing toshare with our listening
audience and your friends.
So I just wanted to say thankyou.
And Robert, You know, one of myfour absolutely loves talking to
her about food.
And when he started to talk toDanny about it in our recent
(53:55):
trip to Mexico, Danny was like,no, I'm not my mother.
I eat meat.
Well, you know, I will say,though, sometimes you learn a
harder way, but the ears areopen because I see some changes.
You know, I didn't bring them upthis way, but I didn't give them
a lot of meat.
I didn't give them any red meat,but then as they got older and I
(54:18):
wasn't always in charge, that'sokay.
They know I've been in their earand now I'm backing off and
letting them just see, lettingthem see.
Robin, and we will take yourtips and start our new health
journey.
And we hope that everyone willdo that.
(54:38):
Thanks for joining us in ourpodcast today.
Be sure to check us out at ourwebsite at
www.twoblackmomsandamic.com,where we hope that you will
subscribe.
You can also hear this and ourother podcasts on Google
Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio,Amazon Audible, and Podchaser.
(54:59):
If you like what you hear, wehope you'll give a great review.
Hey, thanks for joining ustoday.
This is Glenda.
And this is Lisa.
Two black moms and a mic andwe're signing off.
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