August 2, 2025 • 24 mins
What happens when a seemingly successful career no longer feels fulfilling?
In this kickoff episode of 20 Happy Careers, Dr. Fred Cho opens up about his unexpected journey from burnout to rediscovering meaning and excitement through travel optometry. Joined by co-host Dr. Riyad Khamis, the two optometrists dive deep into the myths of career “success,” the warning signs of burnout, and how small, intentional steps can lead to a career that aligns with your passions and values.
Dr. Cho shares how a two-week locum transformed his outlook, what it really means to have career autonomy, and the surprising ways his blog and side projects opened doors he never anticipated. Whether you're in healthcare or not, this episode offers honest insights and practical tools to help you design a career that's uniquely yours.
Key Topics:
- Recognizing burnout (even when things look good on paper)
- What is a portfolio career and why it matters
- How to start a passion project without quitting your job
- Building autonomy no matter where you work
- Why your “Monday morning feeling” might be telling you something
If you're feeling stuck, restless, or just curious about alternative career paths, this is the episode for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (00:00):
Welcome to 20 Happy Careers with doctors,
(00:02):
Riyad Chemist, and Dr.
Fred Cho.
Real conversations about theimperfect path to a happy
career.
So I'd just like to introducemyself.
My name is Riyad Khamis.
I am an optometrist and Ipractice here in London,
Ontario.
I.
I'm really passionate aboutfinding my passions.
For me, it's really important tohave a variety of different
(00:23):
areas in my career from treatingconcussion patients, to working
with athletes and and regularoptometry as well.
Finding that variety is really,really important to me.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (00:34):
And my name is Dr.
Fred Cho, and I'm a traveloptometrist based in Ontario,
but I'm licensed in threeprovinces right now and more to
come.
I like to speak and write aboutwork happiness on my downtime,
and I'm really excited toactually do this because Rita
and I, like we've known eachother from school.
We went on mission tripstogether, so we've known each
(00:56):
other for a long time, and it'sjust topic that we know we're
both really interested in.
Really excited to get thisstarted.
So Riyad, tell me kind of what,what is the podcast about?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (01:06):
Yeah, so as we said, for us there's an
optometry, there's a concept of20 happy.
Everyone's probably heard thehad heard the term 2020, ideally
2020 is perfect vision or it's adefinition of perfect vision.
But as we know, everyone has adifferent definition of a
different way of getting toperfect vision.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe 2020.
(01:27):
Some people are happy with 2025vision.
Other people wanna be betterthan 2020.
So really kind of the importantthing is just finding someone
who's 20 happy.
So with this, that's what we'relooking at.
When we look at careers as well,we know there's no perfect path
and no perfect endpoint toeveryone's career in finding
that happiness or perfectblueprint.
So I'm really interested indiving in and finding the
(01:51):
imperfect path and reallyfinding.
Different ways and differentavenues to try to get to that 20
happy in whichever way it'll beas well.
So that's where that name camefrom.
Fred, what do you think thelisteners will get outta this
podcast?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (02:05):
Well, we're hoping that we can have some
honest conversations aboutburnout because it's so common
among healthcare professionals,and oftentimes it's kind of
swept under the rug.
And so we want to havediscussions with like-minded
professionals.
And to highlight the manydifferent paths to a happy
career.
(02:25):
Of course, there's many morepaths than just the traditional
one that is prescribed forwhatever your profession might
be.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (02:32):
Exactly.
And hopefully that's kind of thething.
I'm thinking that we'll getoutta this as well.
But I'm gonna start with somehard hitting questions right off
the bat for you, Fred.
We're gonna go straight into it.
Was there a point in your careerwhere you didn't enjoy your work
and what was the key to findingit?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (02:48):
So that's a great question because for me,
the burnout wasn't so obvious.
I didn't even know that I wasburning out.
And I think it was just kind ofthe monotony of day in day out
work.
And it wasn't until a friend ofmine, Dr.
Zang, our classmate, uh, hecalled me about an opportunity
(03:09):
in rural Manitoba.
So I think the key to findingthis travel optometry career
that I now love and enjoy, I.
It came from thinking about mycareer as a more of a creative
building block problem and notjust a linear, traditional box.
So I'm sure we'll dive moreright into that.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (03:28):
Yeah.
That's a really imporinteresting concept as well, is
we'll dive into a little bitabout how I.
You go about that and traveloptometry is super interesting.
I think that you've probably gotto explore and see a lot of neat
places, enjoy a lot of places.
What, just real quick, what aretheir top three or top two
places that you've gotten to seeas a travel optometrist, would
(03:48):
you say?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (03:50):
So each place has something unique, right?
Different culture and differentpeople.
But I've really enjoyedNewfoundland so far.
I gotta say the coal signs arebeautiful and.
The culture is very vibrant too.
Yes.
And sometimes it almost doesn'tseem like Canada actually,
because the Newfoundland, it'sthe coastlines are very
striking.
(04:11):
Mm.
And especially in summertime.
It's gorgeous.
I was just there a few weeks agoas well.
Ah, nice.
So favorite places?
I would say Bonna Vista inNewfoundland.
If you ever.
Wanna just go away for a week ortwo and enjoy the piece.
Like that's what I wouldrecommend.
Okay.
Definitely my top place.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (04:27):
Probably have to Google that, where that is on
a map right now.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (04:30):
It's home to like puffins.
Ah.
It's like these little penguins.
They're very cute.
Yeah.
Ah,
Dr. Riyad Khamis (04:34):
amazing.
Yes.
Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure theculture there is really neat and
interesting to learn about aswell.
So, but just jumping back intowhat you were saying about this
career change and going thatpath, I'd love to kind of learn
more about it.
'cause a lot of times it's.
Easier thought about thanactually done.
So I'd love to dive into thatjourney a little bit.
So let's kind of dive into whatprompted you.
(04:56):
Is there any advice to peoplewho are feeling stuck in
whatever career they have?
So this is not just meant foroptometry, but all healthcare or
whatever career, but people mayget to a point where they're
feeling stuck.
So what would some advice be forthem?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (05:10):
Well, first of all, I was maybe nine years into
my practice, right when Irealized that I was kind of
burning out.
And honestly like I was at agreat clinic with a great boss
and on track for clinicownership too, eventually.
But as I often say, like I wassuccessful on paper, but it just
didn't make me feel happyinside.
(05:31):
So I think it just ties back toour podcast title of like 20
happy, right?
Like happiness and work.
And in life it's, it's sosubjective.
And for me, kind of thattraditional path for optometry
wasn't really doing it for me.
So I think if you're in your ownprofession there, I'm sure
there's this prescribedtraditional path in whatever
field.
(05:51):
And although it works for somepeople, I mean, you're a clinic
owner and I know you love that.
Yeah.
It, it works for some people,but not, not for everyone
certainly.
So there are other ways to kindof find that work happiness.
Um, and I think it's easy to getlulled into what I call, things
are like good enough, right?
So when you feel like, you know,it's, it's not, it's not bad,
(06:13):
it's not great, it's just kindof good enough and that's the
hardest part of getting out ofthat space.
'cause I was also stuck in thatfor a long time.
So, yeah, I think it doesn'thave to take a quitting your
job, right, uh, to kind of startthis process.
You can actually take smallerchanges to kind of work towards
(06:34):
your work happiness.
So for example.
I didn't, right away make thisbig shift.
I actually, what I callprototyped.
Mm-hmm.
So I tried going to a two weeklocum office in Manitoba just to
see if I would like the travelaspect logistically how to work.
And that little experimentchanged everything for me.
(06:55):
And so I would say, yeah, itdoesn't have to have a big step.
You just have to start with asmall, smaller one and take
Dr. Riyad Khamis (07:01):
the baby steps.
And I remember hearing somethingabout how you feel about your
work.
Is illustrated sometimes on howyou feel about Monday morning.
And I know I sometimes watchSunday night football and I'm
tired, and Mondays are always,oh, I have to wake up to go to
work.
But that's more the tired aspectof it.
But how you feel about actuallygoing about your day and your
(07:21):
job and whether you're at thepoint where you don't really
wanna go to work on Mondaysometimes can illustrate.
Maybe that's that moment wheremaybe, maybe this isn't for me,
is that, have you heard thatbefore?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (07:32):
Yeah, for sure.
And I think, you know, not everyday has to be like fireworks,
right?
Yes.
I think that's not reallyrealistic, but you work should
give you energy, right?
It shouldn't be always takingaway energy from you and you're
always feeling drained.
And that's certainly kind of howI felt.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (07:48):
Yeah.
That dread of, oh, I have to goback to work.
We don't wanna have that aswell.
So let's say you are in thatarea, or let's say you felt
burnout or you're thinking,okay, yeah, that makes sense,
Fred, I'm, I'm kind of in thatarea.
It's hard to go from there tothe big step of making that
change, especially from a salarystandpoint, telling your
significant other or yourparents or telling someone else.
(08:10):
What are some things that youwould give advice on if people
are on that path and say, okay,what are things they can
incorporate a small things on adaily basis, maybe to start
changing that career path orchanging the way their career's
going?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (08:24):
Yeah, it's a great question and I think it's
a very relevant one.
Because a lot of people are inthat boat like you just
described.
And I would say the key, atleast from my experience, is to
start a portfolio career.
So portfolio career means thatyou have a combination of paid
and unpaid roles rather thanjust one full-time job.
(08:46):
So the key idea is that youdon't just discard your main job
and you just pursue a creativepassion because there's now
there's more risk, right?
So keep the main job.
Then seriously pursue anothercreative passion, whatever that
might be.
And this allows you to becreative without constraint for
money or expectation.
(09:08):
And so it can be something aseasy as spending, you know, a
few hours on the weekend on thatpassion project and focusing on
how you can create value forothers.
Not necessarily focusing on howit can make money, because then
now you're just looking for asecond job, right?
And yeah, we don't really needthat, right?
Like we we're looking forsomething that drives you, that
(09:29):
makes you feel good.
Just the act of pursuing thatcreative passion.
To give an example for me, I, asI began this travel optometry, I
got to start.
Blog.
I just started writing aboutideas that I wanted to share.
That's all.
There was no other, really noother agenda.
It has led me to places thatI've never expected.
(09:52):
So I got a few speakingengagements because of the
writing.
I mean, you don't know what youdon't know, right?
And I didn't know that I wouldlove speaking as much as I did
once I did it.
So yeah, I would say one easything is to start a portfolio
career.
And kind of choose that creativepassion to pursue seriously on
(10:12):
the side.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (10:13):
Yeah, I really like that.
And I, and I think one examplein my end too is, and, and this
is sometimes goes for healthcareprofessionals or professionals
in general, is sometimes wealways value work as money.
Like if we do this work, this ishow much we should be worth or,
or anything like that.
Yeah.
But you're right.
Like I remember I was reallyinterested in sports and.
I wanted to get into the sportsside of optometry and work with
(10:37):
teams and things like that.
But to the teams, I was just aneye doctor.
Okay, well there's anoptometrist.
How is he gonna help us?
So when I went in, I had allthese expectations of people are
gonna pay me this much money.
This is how much I'm worth.
And it didn't really work thatway and, and I really had to
first show.
What I could do and, and I wasreally passionate about it, so I
didn't mind doing it.
(10:57):
Like for me, I never thought ofit as work.
I thought of it as you said, aslike a passion or hobby or
something I can do, and thatreally shone through and, and
they realized the value and thenit can turn into maybe a career
or maybe a little bit of work,but sometimes checking that ego
at the door and saying, you knowwhat, I'm gonna just do this for
fun and, and yeah, I may not beworth this much, but.
(11:18):
I don't have to always get paidfor something I'm passionate
about.
And that's how your passions cansometimes turn into your career
as well, which is I think alongthe lines of what you were
saying as well, which is great.
And so on that part of it.
So it's all well and good.
It's sometimes I hear whenpeople talk about career,
podcasts, things like that is,okay, well I got here, it was
(11:40):
this easy, this is how I did it.
Follow these 10 steps and you'llget, get to being happy, lucky
as well.
But we all know that's not thecase and there's always gonna be
obstacles and what about, and,and I think we're all still
chasing our 20 happy not, Idon't think it's an end point.
I think it's a, it's the journeyof it.
But what would you say are someobstacles now I can see you're
(12:02):
on your journey, so what aresome obstacles that you found
challenging when chasing your 20happy journey And, and maybe
some things of how you overcamethose obstacles as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (12:12):
So the main obstacle that I found was that
when I was pursuing thisnon-traditional path, people
didn't really understand likewhy I was doing it, especially,
uh, like family members.
My parents, I remember they wereso worried about why I am
quitting my staple job, right?
Because it's, it was a greatclinic and great boss, and so
(12:35):
like, why, why are you givingthis up?
And I think that's kind of thepoint of 20 happy, isn't it?
Right.
It doesn't always have to bethis one particular box of what
it could be.
Yeah.
For your work happiness.
But that's been an unexpectedchallenge I didn't know I had to
deal with.
And at the end of the day, it'simportant that the work that you
(12:56):
do and the career that you'rebuilding really aligns with you.
Like there's this idea that workand life should be aligned.
They shouldn't.
Feel like completely separatething.
Like it shouldn't, if you're atwork, it shouldn't feel like
everything you wanna do in lifeis out there outside of these
four walls.
And I kind of know that feeling,'cause that that is how I
(13:19):
honestly felt at the time.
So I think it's, to your pointearlier, riyad of aligning your
passions with your sports andyour knowledge of vision
therapy.
And combining that together.
So now like the work doesn'tfeel like work per se, just the
doing it itself is veryrewarding.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (13:38):
Right, right.
Yeah, no, that's a reallyinteresting point.
I really like that analogy.
So, yeah, that makes a lot ofsense.
And I think that when you'refollowing your passenger,
changing your careers, itdoesn't mean you're not gonna
work hard.
Like you said, like you need tostill work hard.
It's not an aspect of, okay, Iwanna take a break from work
and.
Maybe that's gonna mean notworking or not working hard or
(14:00):
not, because if you don't workhard, then sometimes where your
goals are set, aren can alwayshappen.
And I think the other thing is,is when you were deciding on
this maybe changing careers andyou told people and maybe they
didn't understand, you had avision of what you felt like it
was gonna be like.
And I think that's important iswhen you are.
(14:21):
Deciding on it.
It's not a one day decision,right?
It's not a, I'm gonna wake uptoday and my career's gonna
change.
It's something you thought aboutfor a while and you experience
and, and I think for, for me, abig thing is either writing
things down or really going backto your self.
So I did a presentation not toolong ago to some optometry
students and in, when you're astudent in.
(14:44):
Third, second, third year, youhave this grand vision of what
you wanna be, and you really arepassionate about whatever your
profession is.
You've shadowed, you've seenpeople or leaders in the field,
and you have this vision ofwhere you could be.
And sometimes we lose that as wegraduate, we get into our first
job and our day to day.
So sometimes going back to thatthird year self or second year
(15:07):
self.
Or even just writing down rightnow, like when you have a quiet
time, when you don't havedistractions of where you see
yourself and where you reallywant to go in that career path
of 20 happy and writing it down.
And then that way when obstaclescome up, it's not a case of, oh,
I'm gonna give up because thisis hard, or this person doesn't
(15:28):
really think it's gonna work.
Or maybe even you haveself-doubt, but if you write it
down, you go back to that andsay, okay, this is what I was
thinking.
And yeah, maybe things have comeup.
This is the end path that Iwanna get to as well.
So I think that that's a goodway to, to really from my end on
obstacles there as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (15:45):
That's a great tip there, just to write it
down.
'cause there's something aboutwriting it on a, like a tactile
piece of a pen and paper.
Yeah.
And it's kind of reconnectingwith your why, right?
Right.
Like why did you get into thisprofession in the first place?
Exactly.
And sometimes in the busyness oflife, we forget that.
And I think what you're alsoimplying is that we need to
(16:07):
pause and reflect on like yes,the life and works big
questions.
Yes.
So I really love that point.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (16:13):
Yeah.
The quiet time's important, Ithink.
Mm-hmm.
In terms of creating autonomy,so I know I hear that term a lot
is autonomy.
It makes it easier or it helpswith the career happiness.
So what is career autonomy andwhat does it really mean to take
control of your career?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (16:32):
So autonomy is a fancy term.
Yes.
To say freedom over your work.
Okay.
Like freedom, right?
And everyone wants to beself-directed.
So in the context of work, itmeans a lot of different things
potentially.
It could be where you work, howyou work, who you work with, and
so.
A simple example would be maybeit's getting off a bit early to
(16:55):
pick up your kid from daycare,like that's mm-hmm.
Or, you know, revising officepolicies on a task that you
really care about.
So it's, yeah, think of kind ofbeing self-directed in, in how
you do the work.
And I think that is actually akey to lasting work happiness.
And there's what I would callhigher order needs for work
(17:18):
satisfaction.
So three of them I would mentionis, well, autonomy is a big one.
Yeah.
And having a personal missionpurpose to your work is
important.
And sense of growth.
Like we all wanna be gettingbetter at something.
The, becoming an expert insomething feels really good.
But yeah, so autonomy isdefinitely a keystone, uh, uh,
(17:39):
and autonomy for work happen.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (17:41):
Sounds like it doesn't necessarily have to be,
oh, okay, I'm my own boss, orI'm doing this, it, it can have
autonomy as.
If you're working as anassociate or working in a
practice or working wherever youare, is creating those things
where you have that freedom ofreally kind of tailoring your
career to where you want it tobe.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (18:00):
Definitely, definitely.
And the thing is, everyone hasdifferent amounts of degree of
autonomy that they want, right.
To make them happy.
Some people like me, I want tobe completely free, right?
That's why I chose traveloptometry.
I can go work with whoever,wherever I want.
Not everyone I realized reallywants that or needs that.
(18:20):
Yes, yes.
But everyone, they do need somesort of autonomy.
And that is true whether you'rean associate owner or whatever
you do.
And for me, what I like to tellpeople is you don't have to go
in there and just makingsweeping demands of what you
want.
Yeah.
Um, think of it as like awin-win, right?
(18:40):
Like if you are an associate andyou want a little more autonomy
built into your day.
Then identify what would makethe biggest difference and try
to ask for it in a win-win kindof way.
Like how can we both benefitfrom it?
Make it easy for your employerto say, yeah, let's try that.
Whether it means can we try fora month to see how that affects
(19:02):
performance.
Or highlighting mutual benefit.
So it doesn't have to be bigchanges everywhere.
Just think of small, smallsteps.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (19:10):
Yeah.
And I'll say as an owner andhaving employees just hearing
them say, oh, I wanna do my ownthing.
Sometimes you have so much onyour plate and it's not the
sometimes not the most pleasantthing to hear, but as you framed
it, there can be a win-win ifsomeone comes and says, I want
to start doing this in thepractice because it's something
I'm passionate about.
(19:32):
And all of a sudden as an owner,you're like, oh yeah, that's
something else we can add to ourrepertoire or our practice as
well, and really make it so wecan offer another service.
And then all of a sudden youlook to that person as someone
who is a go-getter.
And is is someone that you tendto value more in your practice
as well because.
They're bringing somethingadditional to it also.
(19:53):
So yeah, I really like thewin-win part of it, like you
mentioned there.
And I think it creates that forboth parties.
It creates that sense ofteamwork a little bit more as
well on that part.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (20:05):
And I will just add that if you have a more of a
feeling of ownership over thework, and a great example of
what you just brought up is ifan employee suggests a different
way of doing things, then thattask becomes a little more under
their ownership.
And that has shown to increaseproductivity, drive innovation
(20:25):
and work happiness ultimatelyfor, for everyone.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (20:29):
No, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, I like that as well.
Alright, good.
So some of the stuff we talkedabout work a lot and work
happiness, and I think.
Part of it.
I really like the point ofintegrating work and life
together, and I think as atravel optometrist, you've
gotten to experience that alittle bit more and seen a lot
of the country and, and, andeverything like that as well.
But outside of work, let's sayonce those, once the clinic
(20:52):
closes or you're done, what kindof stuff do you enjoy doing
outside of work and could betraveling or, or kind of at home
as well?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (21:00):
Yeah.
Well, I, I definitely love newexperiences, whatever that is.
So.
For one moment I'll be into likewhiskey or then I'll be into
coffee or, yeah.
I love like physical endurancechallenges.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
So I, I've done a marathonbefore and I did a tough mother,
I did a Spartan race not toolong ago.
That was four hours to complete,you know, going up and down ski
(21:23):
hills four times carryingstones.
And I wouldn't recommend it, tobe honest.
It was a bit, it was a bitintense, but it's.
So fun because I was doing thatwith my friends at the same
time, right?
Yes.
So we were pushing each otherand kind of the comradery out of
that, a new experience.
So yeah, I mean, I just lovemixing in new experiences with
(21:46):
life and work, and I thinkthat's why travel optometry fits
my life so well.
When I think back to my firstnine years of career, I really
was at the same office everyday, just doing the same thing
day in, day out, and.
You know, I, I've actually goneback to that office just for
little shift here and there.
(22:06):
Right.
And I found that I'm actuallyvery happy there.
Mm-hmm.
So it wasn't even that, like Isaid, I was at a great clinic
with a great boss.
It just, it didn't align with mypersonal values.
So yes.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (22:16):
Yeah, the days probably start to blend together
when you're, and, and now all ofa sudden you have all these, as
you said, experiences andmemories and everything like
that as well.
And yeah, you get to see allthese new places and, and I
think there's a lot of, justtouching on the travel part of
it, there's a lot of underservedcommunities.
Sometimes if we're in a city,we're still busy.
(22:38):
But when you go out to thesesmall towns, you realize, oh,
like I'm really valued herebecause there's not a lot of
people with my knowledge orexpertise here as well.
And that must feel great aswell.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (22:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's part of how I got toreconnect with why I got into
optometry in the first place.
So yeah, like I said, Riyad likeif, if you ever want to go work
out and you plan together, thereare clinics with multiple lanes.
But
Dr. Riyad Khamis (23:01):
remember we did a mission trip together in
Am I gonna.
Probably butcher the name, butit was Chias Mexico Chappa de
Corzo, right?
Yeah.
And I remember like 40 degreeweather seeing hundreds there
maybe thousands of people justlined up and it just constant
and, and we loved it.
Like we didn't get paid for it.
(23:21):
We paid to be there.
Yeah.
But we got so many, we got, wegot to help so many people.
And I think, as you said,experience wise.
Probably a memory we'll bothremember and, and how, and kinda
love to do again at some pointas well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (23:36):
Yeah.
If you remember the whole townlined up,
Dr. Riyad Khamis (23:37):
right?
Yes.
They, they had an advertisement
Dr. Fred H. Cho (23:39):
for the whole town.
The mayor came out to thank thewhole team and Yes.
So the whole.
Yeah, for sure.
Interesting experience.
Yeah, no, we definitely gotta dothat again.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (23:48):
Yeah, one day.
So that was great.
Thank you for sharing yourwisdom and we'll definitely dive
in to more in future episodes aswell as we get out to learning
more about yourself, but alsoother people too.
We'll reach out, we'll haveother guests on the show.
And really, as you said, we'lllearn that path or everyone's
path and different obstaclesthat they, they went through to
(24:09):
try to reach their careerhappiness.
So I think it was reallyvaluable to learn your journey
there as well.
So I would love to dive in morein future episodes as well.
So thanks for listening to 20Happy Careers.
If you found this helpful, we'dlove for you to subscribe,
share, leave a comment.
We're really gonna continue todive into trying to rethink
(24:30):
success and what it really meansto love your work.
And as you continue, just keepplugging away and hopefully you
found some valuable tips, tipsalong the way as well.
So until next time, keepplugging along, but keep finding
your journey to happiness and,and keep working away at it.
And we're excited to, to be withyou on this journey as well.
Welcome to 20 Happy Careers with doctors,
(00:02):
Riyad Chemist, and Dr.
Fred Cho.
Real conversations about theimperfect path to a happy
career.
So I'd just like to introducemyself.
My name is Riyad Khamis.
I am an optometrist and Ipractice here in London,
Ontario.
I.
I'm really passionate aboutfinding my passions.
For me, it's really important tohave a variety of different
(00:23):
areas in my career from treatingconcussion patients, to working
with athletes and and regularoptometry as well.
Finding that variety is really,really important to me.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (00:34):
And my name is Dr.
Fred Cho, and I'm a traveloptometrist based in Ontario,
but I'm licensed in threeprovinces right now and more to
come.
I like to speak and write aboutwork happiness on my downtime,
and I'm really excited toactually do this because Rita
and I, like we've known eachother from school.
We went on mission tripstogether, so we've known each
(00:56):
other for a long time, and it'sjust topic that we know we're
both really interested in.
Really excited to get thisstarted.
So Riyad, tell me kind of what,what is the podcast about?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (01:06):
Yeah, so as we said, for us there's an
optometry, there's a concept of20 happy.
Everyone's probably heard thehad heard the term 2020, ideally
2020 is perfect vision or it's adefinition of perfect vision.
But as we know, everyone has adifferent definition of a
different way of getting toperfect vision.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe 2020.
(01:27):
Some people are happy with 2025vision.
Other people wanna be betterthan 2020.
So really kind of the importantthing is just finding someone
who's 20 happy.
So with this, that's what we'relooking at.
When we look at careers as well,we know there's no perfect path
and no perfect endpoint toeveryone's career in finding
that happiness or perfectblueprint.
So I'm really interested indiving in and finding the
(01:51):
imperfect path and reallyfinding.
Different ways and differentavenues to try to get to that 20
happy in whichever way it'll beas well.
So that's where that name camefrom.
Fred, what do you think thelisteners will get outta this
podcast?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (02:05):
Well, we're hoping that we can have some
honest conversations aboutburnout because it's so common
among healthcare professionals,and oftentimes it's kind of
swept under the rug.
And so we want to havediscussions with like-minded
professionals.
And to highlight the manydifferent paths to a happy
career.
(02:25):
Of course, there's many morepaths than just the traditional
one that is prescribed forwhatever your profession might
be.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (02:32):
Exactly.
And hopefully that's kind of thething.
I'm thinking that we'll getoutta this as well.
But I'm gonna start with somehard hitting questions right off
the bat for you, Fred.
We're gonna go straight into it.
Was there a point in your careerwhere you didn't enjoy your work
and what was the key to findingit?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (02:48):
So that's a great question because for me,
the burnout wasn't so obvious.
I didn't even know that I wasburning out.
And I think it was just kind ofthe monotony of day in day out
work.
And it wasn't until a friend ofmine, Dr.
Zang, our classmate, uh, hecalled me about an opportunity
(03:09):
in rural Manitoba.
So I think the key to findingthis travel optometry career
that I now love and enjoy, I.
It came from thinking about mycareer as a more of a creative
building block problem and notjust a linear, traditional box.
So I'm sure we'll dive moreright into that.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (03:28):
Yeah.
That's a really imporinteresting concept as well, is
we'll dive into a little bitabout how I.
You go about that and traveloptometry is super interesting.
I think that you've probably gotto explore and see a lot of neat
places, enjoy a lot of places.
What, just real quick, what aretheir top three or top two
places that you've gotten to seeas a travel optometrist, would
(03:48):
you say?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (03:50):
So each place has something unique, right?
Different culture and differentpeople.
But I've really enjoyedNewfoundland so far.
I gotta say the coal signs arebeautiful and.
The culture is very vibrant too.
Yes.
And sometimes it almost doesn'tseem like Canada actually,
because the Newfoundland, it'sthe coastlines are very
striking.
(04:11):
Mm.
And especially in summertime.
It's gorgeous.
I was just there a few weeks agoas well.
Ah, nice.
So favorite places?
I would say Bonna Vista inNewfoundland.
If you ever.
Wanna just go away for a week ortwo and enjoy the piece.
Like that's what I wouldrecommend.
Okay.
Definitely my top place.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (04:27):
Probably have to Google that, where that is on
a map right now.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (04:30):
It's home to like puffins.
Ah.
It's like these little penguins.
They're very cute.
Yeah.
Ah,
Dr. Riyad Khamis (04:34):
amazing.
Yes.
Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure theculture there is really neat and
interesting to learn about aswell.
So, but just jumping back intowhat you were saying about this
career change and going thatpath, I'd love to kind of learn
more about it.
'cause a lot of times it's.
Easier thought about thanactually done.
So I'd love to dive into thatjourney a little bit.
So let's kind of dive into whatprompted you.
(04:56):
Is there any advice to peoplewho are feeling stuck in
whatever career they have?
So this is not just meant foroptometry, but all healthcare or
whatever career, but people mayget to a point where they're
feeling stuck.
So what would some advice be forthem?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (05:10):
Well, first of all, I was maybe nine years into
my practice, right when Irealized that I was kind of
burning out.
And honestly like I was at agreat clinic with a great boss
and on track for clinicownership too, eventually.
But as I often say, like I wassuccessful on paper, but it just
didn't make me feel happyinside.
(05:31):
So I think it just ties back toour podcast title of like 20
happy, right?
Like happiness and work.
And in life it's, it's sosubjective.
And for me, kind of thattraditional path for optometry
wasn't really doing it for me.
So I think if you're in your ownprofession there, I'm sure
there's this prescribedtraditional path in whatever
field.
(05:51):
And although it works for somepeople, I mean, you're a clinic
owner and I know you love that.
Yeah.
It, it works for some people,but not, not for everyone
certainly.
So there are other ways to kindof find that work happiness.
Um, and I think it's easy to getlulled into what I call, things
are like good enough, right?
So when you feel like, you know,it's, it's not, it's not bad,
(06:13):
it's not great, it's just kindof good enough and that's the
hardest part of getting out ofthat space.
'cause I was also stuck in thatfor a long time.
So, yeah, I think it doesn'thave to take a quitting your
job, right, uh, to kind of startthis process.
You can actually take smallerchanges to kind of work towards
(06:34):
your work happiness.
So for example.
I didn't, right away make thisbig shift.
I actually, what I callprototyped.
Mm-hmm.
So I tried going to a two weeklocum office in Manitoba just to
see if I would like the travelaspect logistically how to work.
And that little experimentchanged everything for me.
(06:55):
And so I would say, yeah, itdoesn't have to have a big step.
You just have to start with asmall, smaller one and take
Dr. Riyad Khamis (07:01):
the baby steps.
And I remember hearing somethingabout how you feel about your
work.
Is illustrated sometimes on howyou feel about Monday morning.
And I know I sometimes watchSunday night football and I'm
tired, and Mondays are always,oh, I have to wake up to go to
work.
But that's more the tired aspectof it.
But how you feel about actuallygoing about your day and your
(07:21):
job and whether you're at thepoint where you don't really
wanna go to work on Mondaysometimes can illustrate.
Maybe that's that moment wheremaybe, maybe this isn't for me,
is that, have you heard thatbefore?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (07:32):
Yeah, for sure.
And I think, you know, not everyday has to be like fireworks,
right?
Yes.
I think that's not reallyrealistic, but you work should
give you energy, right?
It shouldn't be always takingaway energy from you and you're
always feeling drained.
And that's certainly kind of howI felt.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (07:48):
Yeah.
That dread of, oh, I have to goback to work.
We don't wanna have that aswell.
So let's say you are in thatarea, or let's say you felt
burnout or you're thinking,okay, yeah, that makes sense,
Fred, I'm, I'm kind of in thatarea.
It's hard to go from there tothe big step of making that
change, especially from a salarystandpoint, telling your
significant other or yourparents or telling someone else.
(08:10):
What are some things that youwould give advice on if people
are on that path and say, okay,what are things they can
incorporate a small things on adaily basis, maybe to start
changing that career path orchanging the way their career's
going?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (08:24):
Yeah, it's a great question and I think it's
a very relevant one.
Because a lot of people are inthat boat like you just
described.
And I would say the key, atleast from my experience, is to
start a portfolio career.
So portfolio career means thatyou have a combination of paid
and unpaid roles rather thanjust one full-time job.
(08:46):
So the key idea is that youdon't just discard your main job
and you just pursue a creativepassion because there's now
there's more risk, right?
So keep the main job.
Then seriously pursue anothercreative passion, whatever that
might be.
And this allows you to becreative without constraint for
money or expectation.
(09:08):
And so it can be something aseasy as spending, you know, a
few hours on the weekend on thatpassion project and focusing on
how you can create value forothers.
Not necessarily focusing on howit can make money, because then
now you're just looking for asecond job, right?
And yeah, we don't really needthat, right?
Like we we're looking forsomething that drives you, that
(09:29):
makes you feel good.
Just the act of pursuing thatcreative passion.
To give an example for me, I, asI began this travel optometry, I
got to start.
Blog.
I just started writing aboutideas that I wanted to share.
That's all.
There was no other, really noother agenda.
It has led me to places thatI've never expected.
(09:52):
So I got a few speakingengagements because of the
writing.
I mean, you don't know what youdon't know, right?
And I didn't know that I wouldlove speaking as much as I did
once I did it.
So yeah, I would say one easything is to start a portfolio
career.
And kind of choose that creativepassion to pursue seriously on
(10:12):
the side.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (10:13):
Yeah, I really like that.
And I, and I think one examplein my end too is, and, and this
is sometimes goes for healthcareprofessionals or professionals
in general, is sometimes wealways value work as money.
Like if we do this work, this ishow much we should be worth or,
or anything like that.
Yeah.
But you're right.
Like I remember I was reallyinterested in sports and.
I wanted to get into the sportsside of optometry and work with
(10:37):
teams and things like that.
But to the teams, I was just aneye doctor.
Okay, well there's anoptometrist.
How is he gonna help us?
So when I went in, I had allthese expectations of people are
gonna pay me this much money.
This is how much I'm worth.
And it didn't really work thatway and, and I really had to
first show.
What I could do and, and I wasreally passionate about it, so I
didn't mind doing it.
(10:57):
Like for me, I never thought ofit as work.
I thought of it as you said, aslike a passion or hobby or
something I can do, and thatreally shone through and, and
they realized the value and thenit can turn into maybe a career
or maybe a little bit of work,but sometimes checking that ego
at the door and saying, you knowwhat, I'm gonna just do this for
fun and, and yeah, I may not beworth this much, but.
(11:18):
I don't have to always get paidfor something I'm passionate
about.
And that's how your passions cansometimes turn into your career
as well, which is I think alongthe lines of what you were
saying as well, which is great.
And so on that part of it.
So it's all well and good.
It's sometimes I hear whenpeople talk about career,
podcasts, things like that is,okay, well I got here, it was
(11:40):
this easy, this is how I did it.
Follow these 10 steps and you'llget, get to being happy, lucky
as well.
But we all know that's not thecase and there's always gonna be
obstacles and what about, and,and I think we're all still
chasing our 20 happy not, Idon't think it's an end point.
I think it's a, it's the journeyof it.
But what would you say are someobstacles now I can see you're
(12:02):
on your journey, so what aresome obstacles that you found
challenging when chasing your 20happy journey And, and maybe
some things of how you overcamethose obstacles as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (12:12):
So the main obstacle that I found was that
when I was pursuing thisnon-traditional path, people
didn't really understand likewhy I was doing it, especially,
uh, like family members.
My parents, I remember they wereso worried about why I am
quitting my staple job, right?
Because it's, it was a greatclinic and great boss, and so
(12:35):
like, why, why are you givingthis up?
And I think that's kind of thepoint of 20 happy, isn't it?
Right.
It doesn't always have to bethis one particular box of what
it could be.
Yeah.
For your work happiness.
But that's been an unexpectedchallenge I didn't know I had to
deal with.
And at the end of the day, it'simportant that the work that you
(12:56):
do and the career that you'rebuilding really aligns with you.
Like there's this idea that workand life should be aligned.
They shouldn't.
Feel like completely separatething.
Like it shouldn't, if you're atwork, it shouldn't feel like
everything you wanna do in lifeis out there outside of these
four walls.
And I kind of know that feeling,'cause that that is how I
(13:19):
honestly felt at the time.
So I think it's, to your pointearlier, riyad of aligning your
passions with your sports andyour knowledge of vision
therapy.
And combining that together.
So now like the work doesn'tfeel like work per se, just the
doing it itself is veryrewarding.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (13:38):
Right, right.
Yeah, no, that's a reallyinteresting point.
I really like that analogy.
So, yeah, that makes a lot ofsense.
And I think that when you'refollowing your passenger,
changing your careers, itdoesn't mean you're not gonna
work hard.
Like you said, like you need tostill work hard.
It's not an aspect of, okay, Iwanna take a break from work
and.
Maybe that's gonna mean notworking or not working hard or
(14:00):
not, because if you don't workhard, then sometimes where your
goals are set, aren can alwayshappen.
And I think the other thing is,is when you were deciding on
this maybe changing careers andyou told people and maybe they
didn't understand, you had avision of what you felt like it
was gonna be like.
And I think that's important iswhen you are.
(14:21):
Deciding on it.
It's not a one day decision,right?
It's not a, I'm gonna wake uptoday and my career's gonna
change.
It's something you thought aboutfor a while and you experience
and, and I think for, for me, abig thing is either writing
things down or really going backto your self.
So I did a presentation not toolong ago to some optometry
students and in, when you're astudent in.
(14:44):
Third, second, third year, youhave this grand vision of what
you wanna be, and you really arepassionate about whatever your
profession is.
You've shadowed, you've seenpeople or leaders in the field,
and you have this vision ofwhere you could be.
And sometimes we lose that as wegraduate, we get into our first
job and our day to day.
So sometimes going back to thatthird year self or second year
(15:07):
self.
Or even just writing down rightnow, like when you have a quiet
time, when you don't havedistractions of where you see
yourself and where you reallywant to go in that career path
of 20 happy and writing it down.
And then that way when obstaclescome up, it's not a case of, oh,
I'm gonna give up because thisis hard, or this person doesn't
(15:28):
really think it's gonna work.
Or maybe even you haveself-doubt, but if you write it
down, you go back to that andsay, okay, this is what I was
thinking.
And yeah, maybe things have comeup.
This is the end path that Iwanna get to as well.
So I think that that's a goodway to, to really from my end on
obstacles there as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (15:45):
That's a great tip there, just to write it
down.
'cause there's something aboutwriting it on a, like a tactile
piece of a pen and paper.
Yeah.
And it's kind of reconnectingwith your why, right?
Right.
Like why did you get into thisprofession in the first place?
Exactly.
And sometimes in the busyness oflife, we forget that.
And I think what you're alsoimplying is that we need to
(16:07):
pause and reflect on like yes,the life and works big
questions.
Yes.
So I really love that point.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (16:13):
Yeah.
The quiet time's important, Ithink.
Mm-hmm.
In terms of creating autonomy,so I know I hear that term a lot
is autonomy.
It makes it easier or it helpswith the career happiness.
So what is career autonomy andwhat does it really mean to take
control of your career?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (16:32):
So autonomy is a fancy term.
Yes.
To say freedom over your work.
Okay.
Like freedom, right?
And everyone wants to beself-directed.
So in the context of work, itmeans a lot of different things
potentially.
It could be where you work, howyou work, who you work with, and
so.
A simple example would be maybeit's getting off a bit early to
(16:55):
pick up your kid from daycare,like that's mm-hmm.
Or, you know, revising officepolicies on a task that you
really care about.
So it's, yeah, think of kind ofbeing self-directed in, in how
you do the work.
And I think that is actually akey to lasting work happiness.
And there's what I would callhigher order needs for work
(17:18):
satisfaction.
So three of them I would mentionis, well, autonomy is a big one.
Yeah.
And having a personal missionpurpose to your work is
important.
And sense of growth.
Like we all wanna be gettingbetter at something.
The, becoming an expert insomething feels really good.
But yeah, so autonomy isdefinitely a keystone, uh, uh,
(17:39):
and autonomy for work happen.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (17:41):
Sounds like it doesn't necessarily have to be,
oh, okay, I'm my own boss, orI'm doing this, it, it can have
autonomy as.
If you're working as anassociate or working in a
practice or working wherever youare, is creating those things
where you have that freedom ofreally kind of tailoring your
career to where you want it tobe.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (18:00):
Definitely, definitely.
And the thing is, everyone hasdifferent amounts of degree of
autonomy that they want, right.
To make them happy.
Some people like me, I want tobe completely free, right?
That's why I chose traveloptometry.
I can go work with whoever,wherever I want.
Not everyone I realized reallywants that or needs that.
(18:20):
Yes, yes.
But everyone, they do need somesort of autonomy.
And that is true whether you'rean associate owner or whatever
you do.
And for me, what I like to tellpeople is you don't have to go
in there and just makingsweeping demands of what you
want.
Yeah.
Um, think of it as like awin-win, right?
(18:40):
Like if you are an associate andyou want a little more autonomy
built into your day.
Then identify what would makethe biggest difference and try
to ask for it in a win-win kindof way.
Like how can we both benefitfrom it?
Make it easy for your employerto say, yeah, let's try that.
Whether it means can we try fora month to see how that affects
(19:02):
performance.
Or highlighting mutual benefit.
So it doesn't have to be bigchanges everywhere.
Just think of small, smallsteps.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (19:10):
Yeah.
And I'll say as an owner andhaving employees just hearing
them say, oh, I wanna do my ownthing.
Sometimes you have so much onyour plate and it's not the
sometimes not the most pleasantthing to hear, but as you framed
it, there can be a win-win ifsomeone comes and says, I want
to start doing this in thepractice because it's something
I'm passionate about.
(19:32):
And all of a sudden as an owner,you're like, oh yeah, that's
something else we can add to ourrepertoire or our practice as
well, and really make it so wecan offer another service.
And then all of a sudden youlook to that person as someone
who is a go-getter.
And is is someone that you tendto value more in your practice
as well because.
They're bringing somethingadditional to it also.
(19:53):
So yeah, I really like thewin-win part of it, like you
mentioned there.
And I think it creates that forboth parties.
It creates that sense ofteamwork a little bit more as
well on that part.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (20:05):
And I will just add that if you have a more of a
feeling of ownership over thework, and a great example of
what you just brought up is ifan employee suggests a different
way of doing things, then thattask becomes a little more under
their ownership.
And that has shown to increaseproductivity, drive innovation
(20:25):
and work happiness ultimatelyfor, for everyone.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (20:29):
No, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, I like that as well.
Alright, good.
So some of the stuff we talkedabout work a lot and work
happiness, and I think.
Part of it.
I really like the point ofintegrating work and life
together, and I think as atravel optometrist, you've
gotten to experience that alittle bit more and seen a lot
of the country and, and, andeverything like that as well.
But outside of work, let's sayonce those, once the clinic
(20:52):
closes or you're done, what kindof stuff do you enjoy doing
outside of work and could betraveling or, or kind of at home
as well?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (21:00):
Yeah.
Well, I, I definitely love newexperiences, whatever that is.
So.
For one moment I'll be into likewhiskey or then I'll be into
coffee or, yeah.
I love like physical endurancechallenges.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
So I, I've done a marathonbefore and I did a tough mother,
I did a Spartan race not toolong ago.
That was four hours to complete,you know, going up and down ski
(21:23):
hills four times carryingstones.
And I wouldn't recommend it, tobe honest.
It was a bit, it was a bitintense, but it's.
So fun because I was doing thatwith my friends at the same
time, right?
Yes.
So we were pushing each otherand kind of the comradery out of
that, a new experience.
So yeah, I mean, I just lovemixing in new experiences with
(21:46):
life and work, and I thinkthat's why travel optometry fits
my life so well.
When I think back to my firstnine years of career, I really
was at the same office everyday, just doing the same thing
day in, day out, and.
You know, I, I've actually goneback to that office just for
little shift here and there.
(22:06):
Right.
And I found that I'm actuallyvery happy there.
Mm-hmm.
So it wasn't even that, like Isaid, I was at a great clinic
with a great boss.
It just, it didn't align with mypersonal values.
So yes.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (22:16):
Yeah, the days probably start to blend together
when you're, and, and now all ofa sudden you have all these, as
you said, experiences andmemories and everything like
that as well.
And yeah, you get to see allthese new places and, and I
think there's a lot of, justtouching on the travel part of
it, there's a lot of underservedcommunities.
Sometimes if we're in a city,we're still busy.
(22:38):
But when you go out to thesesmall towns, you realize, oh,
like I'm really valued herebecause there's not a lot of
people with my knowledge orexpertise here as well.
And that must feel great aswell.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (22:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's part of how I got toreconnect with why I got into
optometry in the first place.
So yeah, like I said, Riyad likeif, if you ever want to go work
out and you plan together, thereare clinics with multiple lanes.
But
Dr. Riyad Khamis (23:01):
remember we did a mission trip together in
Am I gonna.
Probably butcher the name, butit was Chias Mexico Chappa de
Corzo, right?
Yeah.
And I remember like 40 degreeweather seeing hundreds there
maybe thousands of people justlined up and it just constant
and, and we loved it.
Like we didn't get paid for it.
(23:21):
We paid to be there.
Yeah.
But we got so many, we got, wegot to help so many people.
And I think, as you said,experience wise.
Probably a memory we'll bothremember and, and how, and kinda
love to do again at some pointas well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (23:36):
Yeah.
If you remember the whole townlined up,
Dr. Riyad Khamis (23:37):
right?
Yes.
They, they had an advertisement
Dr. Fred H. Cho (23:39):
for the whole town.
The mayor came out to thank thewhole team and Yes.
So the whole.
Yeah, for sure.
Interesting experience.
Yeah, no, we definitely gotta dothat again.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (23:48):
Yeah, one day.
So that was great.
Thank you for sharing yourwisdom and we'll definitely dive
in to more in future episodes aswell as we get out to learning
more about yourself, but alsoother people too.
We'll reach out, we'll haveother guests on the show.
And really, as you said, we'lllearn that path or everyone's
path and different obstaclesthat they, they went through to
(24:09):
try to reach their careerhappiness.
So I think it was reallyvaluable to learn your journey
there as well.
So I would love to dive in morein future episodes as well.
So thanks for listening to 20Happy Careers.
If you found this helpful, we'dlove for you to subscribe,
share, leave a comment.
We're really gonna continue todive into trying to rethink
(24:30):
success and what it really meansto love your work.
And as you continue, just keepplugging away and hopefully you
found some valuable tips, tipsalong the way as well.
So until next time, keepplugging along, but keep finding
your journey to happiness and,and keep working away at it.
And we're excited to, to be withyou on this journey as well.
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