August 2, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode of 20/Happy Careers, Dr. Riyad Khamis shares his inspiring journey to building a passion-driven career in optometry.
Discover how he reignited his passion for neuro-visual rehab and vision therapy through greater autonomy and mentorship, started a thriving vision therapy clinic from scratch, and expanded into sports vision and speaking engagements — all while maintaining balance and avoiding burnout. Dr. Khamis also offers honest insights into the early struggles, rejection, and mindset shifts that paved the way for his success.
Whether you’re feeling stuck in your profession or searching for ways to design a career that energizes you, this episode offers valuable lessons on staying true to your “why,” embracing growth, and turning small starts into meaningful impact.
Key Topics:
- Early career disillusionment and how mentorship helped Riyad rediscover his passion
- Combining general optometry, neuro-visual rehab, sports vision, and speaking
- Balancing workload with intentional breaks and a flexible schedule
- The entrepreneurial leap: growing a vision therapy clinic from one patient to nearly 100 per week
- Overcoming rejection, slow growth, and misconceptions about success
Tune in for an authentic conversation about the ups and downs of crafting a unique and meaningful career — and how you can do it too.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (00:00):
Welcome to the second episode of 20 Happy
(00:02):
Careers with Doctors Fred andRiyad, real conversations about
the imperfect path to a happycareer.
My name is Dr.
Fred Cho, a travel optometristand speaker on Work Happiness,
and I'm joined by my co-host,Dr.
Ria Chemist, a new optometristand founder of London Vision
Development Center.
How are you doing today, rt?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (00:22):
I'm doing well, it's, we're recording on a
Friday, so it's always nice whenit's a Friday and we've been
having super hot weather, butgetting my golf in this summer,
so it's been been pretty good.
So excited to kind of dive in alittle bit deeper on Workplace
Happiness and the 20 Happy Lifeas well.
Um, how are you doing?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (00:41):
You know what?
I actually forgot that it'sFriday because as you know, I
have a little one right now.
Just a week old.
Yeah.
And oh my goodness, like, yeah.
Every day just kind of blendsin.
But uh, no, it's good.
We're picking up the routinenow.
Things are good.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (00:54):
Yeah, well I was gonna say, you look like
you're not too sleep deprived,but you're handling it pretty
well and then look put together,which is impressive.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (01:02):
So today we're diving into your fascinating
journey, but actually before weget started, I do wanna share
how we met.
So re and I, yes.
Were classmates from Universityof Waterloo School of Optometry,
and I remember the very firsttime I met you, you had this
biggest smile.
I remember thinking like, thisguy's teeth is amazing.
(01:23):
He always had great teeth.
And so, you know, over theyears, like we've shared some
really great experiences, right?
We went to Optometry missiontrip together in Mexico.
We were roommates in Alabamaduring our ocular disease
training.
That was really fun.
So first and foremost, I justwanna say that you genuinely
made my life better with yourpositivity and your friendship.
So I really appreciate you.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (01:45):
Okay, well, amazing.
I'm kind of looking at my teethnow.
I'm a little self-conscious ifthey're still as good as they
were back then, but know Iappreciate that and I echo that
as well.
We've spent a lot of time and,and we got to know each other
really well.
We were right by a river inAlabama and there were some big
cockroaches and we handled thattogether.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (02:02):
Yeah.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (02:03):
Um, also we were on an alligator farm.
The, uh, the river had somealligators in it as well.
Yeah.
But we survived that, so wecould probably survive anything.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (02:11):
Roll, roll, tie.
Right.
So I can't wait to dive intoyour fascinating career, but as
usual, let's start with a hardhitting question, and I'm
actually very interested to knowyour take on this.
Was there a point where youdidn't enjoy your work and what
was the key to finding it?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (02:29):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So as, as you stated, we were inschool for a really long time.
We did undergrad, we didoptometry school.
I did a residency.
I was fortunate enough when Ileft my residency to really have
a good picture of where I wantedto go.
And try to build that career howI wanted it to be.
But going back to when Irealized potentially what may or
(02:51):
may not make me happy, it wasactually an interesting story.
In our fourth year, we dorotations, and I remember in my
first couple years of school, Iwas really interested in
binocular vision and neurooptometry.
And basically what that is, ishow the eyes work together.
Uh, rehabbing the vision afterconcussion and sports vision,
and that was something Ithought, you know what, this is
what's something I wanna do withmy life, or I wanna be able to
(03:14):
do when I practice.
Then in fourth year I had a fewrotations through the school and
some, uh, people out shadowingand working where I kind of
didn't love it.
I just found that I was toldwhat to do and I had to go do
it.
And just like in schoolsometimes you have to take a ton
of notes and I wasn't thegreatest note taker and I.
I slowly decided, you know what?
This actually isn't for me.
(03:35):
I'm not enjoying this at all.
I may not be doing it right.
Someone told me to do it thisway and I don't really
understand why.
So I actually went finishedoptometry school and I decided,
you know what?
I'm not gonna be doing visiontherapy or NeuroVisual rehab.
I'm gonna try to do low visionor something else in doing my
residency.
But then just as luck would haveit, I ended up in a residency
(03:56):
rotation where I could choose mycareer path.
And I said, you know what?
I don't like vision therapy.
I'm not doing that.
I'm gonna go with low vision.
But a few months in, as I gotmore experience with vision
therapy and got more autonomy inthe sense that I was designing
the plans, and now all of asudden I had to decide, figure
out what was going on with thepatient and what I needed to do,
(04:17):
it became something that I fellback in love with and I
remembered why I enjoyed it somuch.
In my first couple years ofschool, I.
So that's the moment where Idecided this is something I
wanna do for the rest of mylife, and I was able to build my
practice towards that.
But it kind of goes to showwhatever career you're in,
sometimes it's not necessarilythe subject matter.
You may have fallen in love withthat subject matter.
(04:38):
That's why you chose that careerpath.
But the environment that you arein or the way it was being
practiced, may not be the best.
So sometimes it's just a case offiguring out what works for you
and still enjoying that subjectmatter.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (04:53):
Wow.
Yeah, that's a great answer.
And um, I think some people whenthey think about burnout, they
think, okay, well maybe thiscareer is not right for me.
But to your point, there's areason why you got into it in
the first place.
Exactly.
'cause it is about exploringdifferent environment and trying
it in different ways.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (05:12):
Yeah, and that's a great point.
I think if you were someone, orif.
Someone or that is experiencingburnout.
Sometimes it's good to go backto Why did you choose that
career in the first place?
Yes.
And then maybe thinking, I stillenjoy the matter.
I still enjoy thinking about it.
I enjoy the actual subject orwhat I'm doing, but it's maybe
the environment or the way it'sbeing practiced I don't love.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (05:32):
And so was there a particular moment or
feeling that triggered you toreconnect with your why and why
you love vision therapy?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (05:43):
I think it was my mentor, my residency
supervisor was one of the headsof the vision therapy.
And there was a lot of thingswith vision therapy by that
point, or NeuroVisual Rehab.
I was skeptical about it.
I was like, I don't know if thisworks or how does this work?
And she sat with me for hoursand I would ask all these hard
hitting questions and she wouldexplain them and they would make
sense.
(06:03):
And all of a sudden there was awhy to what we were doing and I
was like, okay, this actuallymakes sense.
I can help this person this way.
By applying this concept.
So really I think it was amentorship of having that and
then getting the freedom ofmaking my own decisions, and
that really triggered somethingwhere I was like, this is
something I'm interested in, andthat thirst for learning and it
(06:25):
really, really kind of ignitedagain.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (06:27):
Awesome.
Now, part of what makes yourcareer so fascinating to me is
that yes, you do great work asneuro optometrists, and I would
love for you to tell us a littlemore about that.
But also there's a term calledportfolio career, which means
that you are doing more than onething that you really care
about.
And so tell us about all thework that you do in and outta
(06:50):
the exam room.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (06:52):
Yeah, for sure.
So just like when we weretalking about your story as
well, how trying to make yourweek.
Different and make itinteresting so that it doesn't
all blend together.
Similarly, my weeks are quite abit different and what I do
during the week or that monthcan vary quite a bit.
So typically I do try to takeFridays off work and that was
(07:12):
something I tried to do in thelast year or so just to catch up
on admin stuff.
So I am my own boss, so I dohave a lot of admin work to do
and I was finding, I was doing.
Work on Sundays and Saturdaysand it became a seven day a week
type of thing, which as youknow, like that can make work
less enjoyable as well.
So I've tried to take Fridaysoff.
(07:34):
That's been a big thing.
Now, whether that's worked,sometimes that works.
It ends up filling up.
Today's Friday I have some stuffto do, but my weeks change, so I
do regular optometry two days aweek now, which is good.
I enjoy it two days a week.
It's good for me.
I see lots of patients and I getthe disease part of it.
Then I do two days a week ofNeuroVisual rehab.
(07:55):
I see post-concussion patients,patients who've had eye turns,
kids with reading issues andcoming up with solutions on
those fronts.
And then I do sports vision aswell.
So for instance, I've reallyspecialized in hockey goalies.
Um, so I have three goaliescoming in this afternoon and in
different various levels, likesome are.
(08:15):
Right there at the NHL level.
Some are in the junior level andsome are in the younger age
group, and we really work onquickness reflex reaction speed.
So that would be.
Outta the exam room because wego outside, we do some ball
drills, we do vision thingsoutside.
So it's fun for me.
I get to be out there doing itas well.
And then I get to do somespeaking events.
Next week I'm heading toactually the University of
(08:37):
Waterloo for with the fourthyear students, and we're doing a
contact lens seminar along withpresentation, which I love
speaking, so I get to do some ofthat stuff as well.
So definitely a variety, which Ireally enjoy.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (08:49):
Perfect.
Yeah, and I think the variety iskey to kind of sustain that
energy too.
Sometimes taking a step a littlebit away from whatever task kind
of helps you re-energize whenyou come back.
So yeah.
How do you feel
Dr. Riyad Khamis (09:02):
about, I would say like in terms of your
experience too, trying to take afew days off during the week?
Because I know you worked for awhile, it was six to seven days
a week that you were working aswell, right?
Yes.
So did you find that made a bigdifference?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (09:16):
Oh yeah, a hundred percent.
I used to work six, seven daysfor years until eventually
burned out.
I think sometimes having a busywork schedule is actually good.
If you have too much time off,that's also not great.
Yes, there are some psychologystudies that looked at what is
the ideal amount of free timeand too much free time is also
(09:36):
stressful and too little freetime is also stressful and
everyone has that kind ofgoldilock zone in the middle.
Yeah.
That is ideal for them andthat's the reason why.
Six days a week just won't workfor everybody either.
Right.
So I would say yes, it, itdefinitely made a big impact on
my wellbeing.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (09:55):
Yes, for sure.
And I think that.
Sometimes we think of work aswhen you're actually in the
office, but all the other stuffor the admin stuff, or when
you're at home doing emails orcatching up, you're still
technically working.
So needing the time off isimportant in terms of at least a
day or two a week.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (10:12):
Definitely.
Now, I'm curious if there was aspecific moment that triggered
the shift to work outside theexam room, and specifically this
is like the sports vision or thecontact lenses speaking that you
do on the road.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (10:27):
I've always enjoyed multiple things and I, I
think that was something fromthe beginning.
I started into private practiceright away and buying into a
practice and just being my ownboss at that point.
I always thought of being ableto apply all these different
areas to my career, and I thinkthat you have this vision of
(10:47):
doing it, but it's not.
An easy thing.
Sometimes it's connections,right?
You meet people.
For instance, I was alwaysinterested in speaking and I
thought maybe I could go intoteaching at some point in my
career.
I thought it would be later onin my career, but I got an
opportunity where I met one ofthe contact lens reps at the
time, and then he ended upmoving up and becoming one of
(11:08):
the head of contact lens inCanada in that company.
And I started speaking for thema a handful of years ago, and I
really enjoyed it.
I tried to do as good of a jobas I could, and I've slowly
gotten to do that more and more.
So sometimes it's just aboutbuilding connections.
You have these plans, but younever know exactly where they're
gonna go, so it's just you kindof roll with it and take the
(11:28):
opportunities as they present.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (11:30):
Yeah.
I think the networking is reallypowerful and I wish we were
taught that even more in school.
Right?
Yeah.
These are like soft skills thatare critical for your career
development that we didn'treally learn about, but I know
you, you're always good atnetworking and you're always
positive, so you're great atattracting other people and so,
(11:50):
right.
I can see how that played agreat role in your career as
well.
Great
Dr. Riyad Khamis (11:54):
role, and I would say networking definitely
didn't.
Is easy to me either though.
Mm-hmm.
Because as you said, it's notsomething we really learned.
And it's different'cause whenyou're younger or you're in
school and you're trying tonetwork, what it really is is
you trying to learn or get valuefrom someone else.
(12:14):
And the problem with that isthat person that you're coming
to also has.
50, 60 other students trying todo the same thing.
So it's not really networking atthat point.
It's you trying to get somevalue from someone else and
who's really, really busy.
And I found that as a student,there wasn't that two-way value
type of thing, if that makessense.
Whereas networking's differentnow.
(12:36):
So I, so I didn't enjoy it and Iwas never great at it in terms
of getting ahead or trying to bethe one that asks a ton of
questions, which is probablylike a lot of people listening,
right?
Yeah.
Like we don't love.
Having to ask a bunch ofquestions or being that person
that's like hands up first allthe time.
Yes.
But I found now it's a littledifferent now that we can add
(12:56):
value to other people.
Networking is so much moreimportant because people wanna
learn from you as much as youwanna learn from other people.
So there's that value is, is twoways and, and now all of a
sudden networking becomes a lotmore engaging because you can
chat about different things andattend events.
Where you start to get to knowpeople.
(13:17):
So I found it super valuable.
But yeah, as you said, it's notsomething that you learn in
school, but it's such animportant tool and, uh,
especially as you further yourcareer, you never know which
opportunities will present thatway as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (13:31):
Oh yeah.
I think that's really insightfulfor your students talk coming up
as well.
And I'm actually, I'm writing anarticle about, exactly about
this topic, which is to havemore of an outward focus.
One clear example is when youtry to collaborate with people,
it really should be a win-win,right?
(13:52):
Like, how do I create value forthem?
Too often I think we approachthe situation with, what can I
get out of this?
But yes, but it's actually, ifyou flip it and think about what
can I do for them?
What problem can I solve forthem, then that actually helps
them wanna work with you more.
And it's more of a right kind ofgenuine, right.
(14:14):
A mutual.
Yeah.
Kind of.
Yeah.
Partnership for sure.
And
Dr. Riyad Khamis (14:17):
that's exactly it.
I always thought when Igraduated and as a student that
I was thinking, those peoplethat helped me out, I always
wanna be that person.
Mm-hmm.
And I still do, but nowadays Iget emails pretty constantly and
it's usually from studentsbecause we're in London and
Westerns right here.
Asking to shadow, and every timesomeone comes to shadow, it's
great.
Like I get to meet someone, butit's also like I have to explain
(14:39):
everything that they, they'rereally new to optometry, so they
don't know, and they have to bein the room, so it takes up more
of my time.
So just because we get so manystudents now emailing, it's
unfortunately, I, I don't end upreplying to a lot of them.
So, so that's, that's exactly itis if, if they can provide value
or if you meet them in personsomewhere.
It's a lot more personal than,than just getting an email being
(15:00):
like, can I come in this day?
And shadow, I'm reallyinterested in optometry.
Right.
Because those, those happenquite often now.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (15:07):
Yeah, for sure.
Now, just circling back to earlypart of your journey, if you can
think back to when your careerstarted expanding in all these
other ways, can you tell us alittle bit about what you were
thinking at the time and ifthere were challenges when you
were trying to branch out of theexam room?
Yeah.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (15:27):
For sure.
I can tell you, I don't knowwhat I was thinking.
I was a big risk taker, which isI was having this conversation
the other day.
Mm-hmm.
And, and by no means are we, arewe way in our career, but I find
that I'm a little bit less of arisk taker already than I was
five, six years ago.
The reason that this came upwas, I'll kind of tell you my
thoughts at the time, at secondhalf of my residency, I was
(15:48):
like, okay, I'm gonna start avision therapy practice.
And for those of you who don'tknow vision therapy, it's.
Basically a referral onlyprocess.
So it's not like a regularoptometry where you get people
calling in and saying, I wannabook an eye exam.
There's a ton of people.
Vision therapy really relies onpeople referring new patients.
So when I first decided that Iwanna open my clinic, we bought
(16:09):
into a practice.
The upstairs had a tiny room,like it wasn't more than 10 by
10 or maybe a little bit larger.
It was basically a storage.
They had stuffed everything foryears into this room.
We cleaned that whole thing out.
I was with my parents, they werehelping me at the time, and I
set up the vision therapypractice in that upstairs room.
We painted it.
We put all these charts and gotall the equipment that I brought
(16:31):
over.
Then I realized like, I don'tknow anyone in London.
I don't know a singlepractitioner.
I don't know anyone.
How am I starting a practicewith just me?
Then I found out there was othervision therapy practices in
London and a couple of new onesopening up.
It really kind of hit me thatI'm like, I don't know what I'm
doing here.
Like we put in all this work, Ibought all this, and at the
(16:52):
time, vision therapy equipmentisn't super expensive, but when
you come out of school or aresidency, you don't have a ton
of money, so you invest a, itseems like a lot at the time,
so.
I remember thinking that, andjust like anything, it started
out really slow.
A couple months where I had onepatient referred over and I
would do my regular optometrypractice.
I would do this in the evening,and it was just me and I would
(17:14):
just be doing the therapymyself.
And then slowly one patientturned into two, which turned
into four, and then my namestarted getting outta there, and
then all of a sudden I.
It was, okay, well, we're toobig for this room.
Let's go to another building.
We bought a big building andnow, yeah, fast forward five,
six years and it's almost like ahundred patients a week now
coming in.
Oh yeah.
(17:34):
So yeah, it's quite the journey.
It's one of those things where Ihad a vision and I was willing
to take a risk, and I neverreally thought it would fail,
but.
There's a few months whereyou're like, okay, this isn't
really generating any revenuehere.
The things work out.
You work hard.
And I was fortunate that way.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (17:51):
Well, firstly, I really appreciate that you're
sharing these moments ofvulnerability and like those
moments where you question yourchoices, like, can I really do
this is gonna work?
Because when somebody looks atyour career now as a whole, I
think this guy's verysuccessful.
He's got a lot of good thingsgoing on and it's hard to relate
(18:11):
sometimes.
And, but it's Right.
It's helpful to hear that.
Yes.
Like everybody has these momentsof doubt and just, it's not
always sunshine.
Right.
Right.
Um, these times where you're notsure, and so if I can dive in a
little more on those momentsYeah.
What helped you get throughthose moments of doubt, those
months of slow growth?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (18:33):
Yeah.
I think two things.
One is I had a good, I had agood amount of time to plan, so
I had.
The structure and everything,how I want it to be really, uh,
kind of in my head.
I also had a good, other thanjust the mentor I talked about
there, I actually shadowed a fewpractices while I was there and
really got a good idea of how avision therapy practice runs or
(18:53):
how it would efficiently runbecause there was a really
efficient clinic there and Itook a ton of notes in my head.
I was like, this is how it, thisworks.
I'm gonna follow this exactstructure so I don't have to
make a ton.
It.
New decisions.
I figured I could make those newdecisions later, but if I follow
the structure initially, then atleast it takes one less variable
out of the equation.
(19:13):
So when it was slow and it waslike, okay, I'm trying to build
my name, I'm trying to build mypractice, I still had that
vision of how I wanted toeventually look and eventually
run.
Then the second part of it isjust doing a good job, right?
If you're passionate about whatyou're deciding to do, and I
was, I was truly passionateabout helping people, and I
(19:34):
still am.
I remember my first couplepatients, they had brain
injuries and they were reallystruggling.
I remember my first one,actually.
She came in.
She's like, Dr.
Camis, I've been struggling forthree years.
I haven't been able to work, Ihaven't been able to late leave
my house, and I can only barelywalk my dog.
You're my last hope, like I'mreally relying on you.
And that was my first braininjury patient.
(19:56):
And I remember coming outta thatroom and being like, what did I
get myself into?
Yeah.
Um, but then we worked at it andat the time I only had a few
patients, so I actually gavethem my cell number as well.
If I don't do that anymore,because there was times where I
would get calls a lot and Ibecame almost like a therapist.
But yeah, I was really investedand she got better and that was
(20:16):
actually my first success caseis she got to the point where
she got back to work.
She's back to functioning.
She wrote me a really, reallynice letter and was like, you
really helped me.
This really was a huge help inkind of my recovery, and I'll
never forget it.
And just from that I was hooked.
I was like, this is what I'mgonna be doing.
And the practice organicallygrew through that because she
(20:36):
would tell people or that personreferring her, and slowly, it's
almost that snowball effect,right?
And more people hear about itand more success stories, and
all of a sudden now it's abigger thing and you're busier,
which is great.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (20:49):
I think the passion is important because
sometimes that's really whathelps you keep pushing.
Even when things get reallytough, you're not sure, but if
you combine what I would say islike passion plus helping other
people together, then that isreally kind of the recipe for
(21:10):
success, I think, andfulfillment, right?
It's not just accolades.
You're really aligned with yourown passions and.
Fulfillment from helping others,which is why optometry as a base
is very rewarding.
I actually was talking to alawyer friend of mine and he
said, I'm so jealous that youguys are in healthcare because
(21:31):
in my field, if I win, the otherguy loses.
And if they win, it's like azero sum game.
But then for you guys, everybodywins and you're helping
everyone, which I think isreally interesting.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (21:43):
Yeah, that is interesting and I think that one
of the other things you said aswell is when you're doing the
same thing and maybe you'reapproaching burnout, your
passion starts to leave a littlebit.
And I think people see that,right?
Like patients can tell when, oh,yes, yes, their doctor's a
little bit more checked out,where all of a sudden now you
change a few things.
You're back to being passionateabout it.
It really shows.
(22:04):
I think they can tell a lot ofthat as well.
And how engaged you are, howmuch you're explaining to them,
all of that stuff as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (22:11):
For sure, for sure.
Now, RI know you're gonna enjoythis question'cause you're a big
mindset guy.
So what practices, habits,mindsets, help you stay grounded
and align with what reallymatters to you?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (22:26):
I think the, the positivity part of it, I've
been always a positive personand naturally that comes to me
is always looking on the brightside of things and always
thinking of how things mightwork out type of things.
Well, so that's always beenimportant to me as well.
Taking mental breaks I think isimportant as well.
(22:46):
For me, sports is a big one,playing sports, so just even
golfing.
I've started to golf over thelast four or five years, and one
of the things I enjoy aboutgolfing is.
Golfing's such a tough sport.
All you're thinking about istrying to figure out the golf
course or how do I avoid thewater?
And all of a sudden you don'tthink about anything else.
So you're just kind of taking abreak and it's just you versus
(23:08):
the golf course or even just anytype of activity.
Swimming, working out, thingslike that are important to, to
keep me grounded I would say isreally important.
And then.
There's times where things gettough, right?
Like when staff leaves and youhave to do all the day-to-day
stuff.
But just kind of thinking of theend goal and the big picture,
like I'm a big picture guy, sothinking big picture on how you
(23:31):
want things to be is reallyimportant, I think for me as
well, and helps me stay groundedthere.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (23:36):
Yeah, that's great.
And is there something thatpeople sometimes misunderstand
about your career or the paththat you chose?
I mean, I think it's easy tosee, like the great things that
you've done.
I'm just curious if there arethings that people don't
understand.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (23:53):
I think that just hard work, right?
I think that nothing comes easy.
I've never been the type ofperson that, even in school,
some people can say, I think youwere, you were pretty good,
smart that way, right?
You could be in class and absorbthings.
You don't have to always show upto class.
You naturally could absorbstuff, right?
I've never been that personlike.
The only way I get ahead is justhard work and, and for me,
(24:15):
that's just outworking people.
But yeah, there's tough timeswhere I had one recently where
we had a staff member leave andI was on vacation and I was
like, oh man, I was supposed todisconnect here.
Mm-hmm.
And I've been doing interviewsat like 2:00 AM because we were
in Europe and Wow.
And it was like one of thosethings that yeah, you don't love
doing at the time, but.
It ends up working out and it'ssomething you have to do.
(24:37):
So yeah, there's stuff thatthat's good, but it all requires
hard work and sometimes doingstuff you don't really love all
the time, but there's that endgoal in mind.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (24:45):
Certainly.
I've done a talk for TMU.
Yeah.
Emily Ryon.
And I know we chatted about howa lot of students just want
their dream job right awaywithout the hard work.
Yes.
And that's not really how thingswork.
You have to put in the worknetwork.
You know, get new skills inorder to work up to it.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (25:07):
Yeah.
One of the things I've learnedtoo is, especially going into
the sports part of it now, so asI've worked with professional
teams, I just had a message theother day by someone being like.
I really love the work you do.
Can I shadow you?
Can I learn all this stuff?
And the thing about it is I hada lot of rejections, especially
coming into the sports part ofit by coaches, by teams where I
(25:31):
would email and I remember whenI first started, I emailed every
single goalie coach around thearea and I was like, this is
what I do.
And I had no responses.
I probably put together 20 to 30emails.
Mm-hmm.
And no one responded to me.
Mm-hmm.
And then all of a sudden you getone connection, same sort of
thing.
You do a good job, you getanother connection.
And all of a sudden now theLondon Knights, which is one of
(25:53):
the biggest hockey organizationshere in town, along with another
junior team, like I'm getting inwith them and I work with them,
and all of a sudden now peopleare coming to me and asking me
those questions, but.
Still the fact that you reallyhave to be okay with being
rejected or someone being like,ah, I don't really, I don't
really need this or, or youprobably don't really gimme much
value and that's okay'cause thenext person might.
(26:14):
So that's been important aswell.
If it happens, that's fine, keepgoing.
But eventually you'll make aconnection that actually helps
you there as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (26:22):
Yeah, that's certainly interesting because
sometimes you just have to getthrough all those nos and just
keep believing yourself.
Yeah, I read recently that theColonel Sanders, the KFC guy.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (26:34):
Yeah.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (26:34):
He went to over a thousand, I think.
Uh, restaurants to try to sellhis recipe.
Bet.
So it wasn't until over athousand that he actually got
his Yes.
And now of course, it's like anational success worldwide.
Oh, that,
Dr. Riyad Khamis (26:47):
that's such a, a good analogy.
'cause yeah.
All you need is the one Yes.
And all of a sudden one Yes.
Leads to another Yes.
Which leads to another.
Yes.
And now you have morecredibility because you know
other people.
And it's that first one that youjust need to get in the door
and.
It may be a thousand nos, butall you need is a yes.
Right.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (27:05):
Well, if I were him though, I would've started
questioning my recipe.
Like maybe it's not very good.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (27:11):
Yeah.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (27:12):
Now, this is a great question.
I, I really want to hear youranswer on this one.
Uh, what does a happy careerlook like for you today?
And has that definition changedover time?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (27:24):
I think more recently.
The most valuable commodity Ifound is time.
And I remember hearing thatsomewhere and I thought, you
know what?
That's actually a good concept.
The business owner, you'realways trying to save costs and
you're like, I'm gonna do thisbecause it's cheaper, or this
weight is more efficient.
Then you get to the point whereyou're like, I can almost only
(27:45):
save so much.
'cause the important thing is ifI can get people to help me free
up my time, that's so much morevaluable.
And I think that's something Ihopefully will transition into
my career with, with being ableto still keep up everything I'm
doing, but adding more time intomy life as well and having more
time for the important things aswell.
But having said that, goals inthe future would be, I really
(28:08):
enjoy sports.
So I think the sports side of itis a really good area, which for
me, I don't really considerwork.
I mean, I do get compensated forit, but I think that's more of
just like a fun thing that I do,and I don't even consider it
like work.
I love the concussion neuro sideof things, so I don't see myself
ever leaving that.
It's nice because I get a goodhour with the patients a lot of
(28:30):
the time, and we can explainstuff we can talk about.
And with the more experience Ihave, I can really bring that to
the table in helping people.
I still love optometry andoptometry disease, things like
that, so I would always wannakeep that going one or two days
a week.
So just the variety.
I really like where I am at, Ithink.
Just from a goal oriented sportstandpoint, maybe continue to
(28:52):
move up in the sports world anddoing things like this, like
talking with podcasts orspeaking or consulting.
But I do think the time part isvaluable too.
'cause you can only take on somuch.
And I think that figuring outwhat works in terms of keeping
your time open is important aswell.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (29:09):
Yeah.
So when I hear your answer,really two things come to mind.
The first is that the workhappiness can't exist in a
vacuum.
Like you have other areas ofyour life that are important to
you.
Could be relationships, could behealth, self-care.
So if you don't have enough timefor other things, you can have a
(29:30):
perfect job and you're stillgonna be not happy.
And so I love that you broughtthat up.
The second thing is that yourpassions in your life seem very
aligned with.
So your passion for speaking,for sports vision and using your
expertise to help others, so Ican see that your life and work
(29:53):
are very well integratedtogether.
Right, which is a recipe forlasting work happiness.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (30:00):
Exactly.
That's perfect.
And I think that from alongevity standpoint, I hope to
be doing this till I'm.
80 or 90 years old if possible.
So yeah, I would say for thenext many years I'll be enjoying
it,
Dr. Fred H. Cho (30:14):
for sure.
Now, I know you're a big sportsguy.
If you had a career highlightreel, what moment has to be in
there?
It could be big or small, butanything that made you go, wow,
I'm really doing this.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (30:28):
Definitely the first part was the one where I
talked about how we were in thatlittle small room and I was just
by myself, and then all of asudden, now we have a building
in downtown London and I seepatients coming in and out all
the time and just being happyand enjoying it.
I remember going to my firstLondon Nights game when I moved
to London and I went with afriend and again, had zero
(30:50):
hockey connections, had anythinglike that, but there was 10,000
screaming fans.
I was like, you know, one dayI'm gonna work with this team.
I remember telling him that andhe's like, oh, okay.
Interesting.
I don't think he really took itthat seriously.
And then same thing in Edmonton.
When we went to an Oilers game,I was like, this is really cool.
I wanna work here as well.
And I don't work with theOilers, but I work with the Oil
Kings and we work in the samearena at Rogers Place, and I get
(31:11):
all the integration with them aswell.
So that's another moment thatI'm pretty proud of.
And then just over the years,the patients, right?
Like the stories, the helpingpeople, and there's the numerous
ones where.
They came in with not a lot ofhope or struggling and being
able to help them and really gettheir life back on track, I
think creates a highlight reelon its own.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (31:30):
I don't know if you remember this Riyad, but we
were hanging out one timewatching a hockey game and you
just looked over at me and said,you know, one day I'm gonna work
with the NHL team.
And, uh, for the, for thelisteners, Riyad does work with
just below NHL.
Yeah.
Believes Western Hockey League,
Dr. Riyad Khamis (31:45):
the Western or the Ontario hockey.
Yeah.
And.
A really cool moment happenedtwo days ago.
I had my first goalie draftedinto the NHL.
Okay.
So there's a goalie I've beenworking with for two years now,
and the Vancouver Connects, tookhim in the second round and he
was the first Ontario HockeyLeague goalie drafted, and he
comes over and we played pingpong sometimes.
(32:05):
Mm-hmm.
So I texted him right away and Iwas like, oh, congratulations.
And, and so it was a really coolmoment and, and he's a really
good kid and I think he's gonnado big things as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (32:12):
So that's huge, man.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (32:14):
Yeah.
Wow.
I can add that to the highlightreel.
I think
Dr. Fred H. Cho (32:18):
that's awesome.
Now, if someone is feeling stuckor unfulfilled in their current
role, what is the one small stepthat you suggest that they take?
I.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (32:28):
I would say go back to your goals and, and your
vision.
Always, no matter what you do,and no matter how stuck you are
and you're in your dailyroutines, always have that
vision in the back of your mindof where you want to be.
'cause you never know whenyou'll make that connection or
which event you'll attend, andthen your vision can start to
come to life.
So never forget that initialvision.
(32:50):
Whatever your passion is andwhether you see your career
going.
In the daily grind or whereveryou're at, just always have that
vision in the back of your mind.
And when you have free time,take those baby steps to start
to try to integrate into thatvision that what you want might
not happen right away, mighthappen in four or five years,
but if you have that vision, youcan keep building towards that
(33:11):
and eventually build the careerthat you enjoy.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (33:15):
Yeah, I think that's a great advice.
And ultimately it's just puttingyour work out there, right?
Like consistency trumpseverything.
And if you just put in thelittle work day in and day out,
then surely you'll get to yourdestination.
And then I guess we can wrap upthe podcast with a more of a fun
question.
So what is something outside ofwork that brings you the most
(33:37):
joy?
What brings you the most joy?
Well,
Dr. Riyad Khamis (33:41):
I will say a Sunday.
Afternoon, 1:00 PM sitting on mycouch watching football.
I don't like to sit for a longtime.
Yeah.
But I can sit for five, sixhours straight.
Yeah.
Just, just watch football andjust kind of turn off my brain.
I would say I always lookedforward to the Sundays.
Even when I was in school, ISunday afternoons from my time,
(34:03):
I didn't do any work, didn't doanything.
Just enjoyed.
I've gotten into gardening morerecently, which has been
interesting.
We're going some vegetables inthe garden, sometimes just
mm-hmm.
Hand in the dirt.
All of that stuff is, is fun aswell.
I like being outside and hiking,all that stuff.
Also.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (34:17):
Well, I gotta say, as long as I've known you,
you've always enjoyed thoseSunday football times.
Yeah.
Do you remember when we went tosee Alabama football team?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (34:26):
Yes.
That was wild.
The
Dr. Fred H. Cho (34:27):
stadium was massive.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (34:29):
Yeah, the college football, there was, I
remember everything that they doin Alabama revolves around the
football or Saturday footballdown there.
So that was a lot of fun and Ithink that to this day, I watch
Alabama and I remember fondlythat, or Sweet Home, Alabama
comes on and I was like, Iremember those times.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (34:50):
Well, this was really fun.
I'm glad that we're doing thisagain, and I just want to thank
our listeners for their time on20 Happy Careers with Dr.
Fred and Riyad.
If you found this helpful, wewould love for you to subscribe,
share, or leave a comment.
Join us next time as we rethinksuccess and what it means to
love your work.
Welcome to the second episode of 20 Happy
(00:02):
Careers with Doctors Fred andRiyad, real conversations about
the imperfect path to a happycareer.
My name is Dr.
Fred Cho, a travel optometristand speaker on Work Happiness,
and I'm joined by my co-host,Dr.
Ria Chemist, a new optometristand founder of London Vision
Development Center.
How are you doing today, rt?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (00:22):
I'm doing well, it's, we're recording on a
Friday, so it's always nice whenit's a Friday and we've been
having super hot weather, butgetting my golf in this summer,
so it's been been pretty good.
So excited to kind of dive in alittle bit deeper on Workplace
Happiness and the 20 Happy Lifeas well.
Um, how are you doing?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (00:41):
You know what?
I actually forgot that it'sFriday because as you know, I
have a little one right now.
Just a week old.
Yeah.
And oh my goodness, like, yeah.
Every day just kind of blendsin.
But uh, no, it's good.
We're picking up the routinenow.
Things are good.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (00:54):
Yeah, well I was gonna say, you look like
you're not too sleep deprived,but you're handling it pretty
well and then look put together,which is impressive.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (01:02):
So today we're diving into your fascinating
journey, but actually before weget started, I do wanna share
how we met.
So re and I, yes.
Were classmates from Universityof Waterloo School of Optometry,
and I remember the very firsttime I met you, you had this
biggest smile.
I remember thinking like, thisguy's teeth is amazing.
(01:23):
He always had great teeth.
And so, you know, over theyears, like we've shared some
really great experiences, right?
We went to Optometry missiontrip together in Mexico.
We were roommates in Alabamaduring our ocular disease
training.
That was really fun.
So first and foremost, I justwanna say that you genuinely
made my life better with yourpositivity and your friendship.
So I really appreciate you.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (01:45):
Okay, well, amazing.
I'm kind of looking at my teethnow.
I'm a little self-conscious ifthey're still as good as they
were back then, but know Iappreciate that and I echo that
as well.
We've spent a lot of time and,and we got to know each other
really well.
We were right by a river inAlabama and there were some big
cockroaches and we handled thattogether.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (02:02):
Yeah.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (02:03):
Um, also we were on an alligator farm.
The, uh, the river had somealligators in it as well.
Yeah.
But we survived that, so wecould probably survive anything.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (02:11):
Roll, roll, tie.
Right.
So I can't wait to dive intoyour fascinating career, but as
usual, let's start with a hardhitting question, and I'm
actually very interested to knowyour take on this.
Was there a point where youdidn't enjoy your work and what
was the key to finding it?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (02:29):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So as, as you stated, we were inschool for a really long time.
We did undergrad, we didoptometry school.
I did a residency.
I was fortunate enough when Ileft my residency to really have
a good picture of where I wantedto go.
And try to build that career howI wanted it to be.
But going back to when Irealized potentially what may or
(02:51):
may not make me happy, it wasactually an interesting story.
In our fourth year, we dorotations, and I remember in my
first couple years of school, Iwas really interested in
binocular vision and neurooptometry.
And basically what that is, ishow the eyes work together.
Uh, rehabbing the vision afterconcussion and sports vision,
and that was something Ithought, you know what, this is
what's something I wanna do withmy life, or I wanna be able to
(03:14):
do when I practice.
Then in fourth year I had a fewrotations through the school and
some, uh, people out shadowingand working where I kind of
didn't love it.
I just found that I was toldwhat to do and I had to go do
it.
And just like in schoolsometimes you have to take a ton
of notes and I wasn't thegreatest note taker and I.
I slowly decided, you know what?
This actually isn't for me.
(03:35):
I'm not enjoying this at all.
I may not be doing it right.
Someone told me to do it thisway and I don't really
understand why.
So I actually went finishedoptometry school and I decided,
you know what?
I'm not gonna be doing visiontherapy or NeuroVisual rehab.
I'm gonna try to do low visionor something else in doing my
residency.
But then just as luck would haveit, I ended up in a residency
(03:56):
rotation where I could choose mycareer path.
And I said, you know what?
I don't like vision therapy.
I'm not doing that.
I'm gonna go with low vision.
But a few months in, as I gotmore experience with vision
therapy and got more autonomy inthe sense that I was designing
the plans, and now all of asudden I had to decide, figure
out what was going on with thepatient and what I needed to do,
(04:17):
it became something that I fellback in love with and I
remembered why I enjoyed it somuch.
In my first couple years ofschool, I.
So that's the moment where Idecided this is something I
wanna do for the rest of mylife, and I was able to build my
practice towards that.
But it kind of goes to showwhatever career you're in,
sometimes it's not necessarilythe subject matter.
You may have fallen in love withthat subject matter.
(04:38):
That's why you chose that careerpath.
But the environment that you arein or the way it was being
practiced, may not be the best.
So sometimes it's just a case offiguring out what works for you
and still enjoying that subjectmatter.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (04:53):
Wow.
Yeah, that's a great answer.
And um, I think some people whenthey think about burnout, they
think, okay, well maybe thiscareer is not right for me.
But to your point, there's areason why you got into it in
the first place.
Exactly.
'cause it is about exploringdifferent environment and trying
it in different ways.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (05:12):
Yeah, and that's a great point.
I think if you were someone, orif.
Someone or that is experiencingburnout.
Sometimes it's good to go backto Why did you choose that
career in the first place?
Yes.
And then maybe thinking, I stillenjoy the matter.
I still enjoy thinking about it.
I enjoy the actual subject orwhat I'm doing, but it's maybe
the environment or the way it'sbeing practiced I don't love.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (05:32):
And so was there a particular moment or
feeling that triggered you toreconnect with your why and why
you love vision therapy?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (05:43):
I think it was my mentor, my residency
supervisor was one of the headsof the vision therapy.
And there was a lot of thingswith vision therapy by that
point, or NeuroVisual Rehab.
I was skeptical about it.
I was like, I don't know if thisworks or how does this work?
And she sat with me for hoursand I would ask all these hard
hitting questions and she wouldexplain them and they would make
sense.
(06:03):
And all of a sudden there was awhy to what we were doing and I
was like, okay, this actuallymakes sense.
I can help this person this way.
By applying this concept.
So really I think it was amentorship of having that and
then getting the freedom ofmaking my own decisions, and
that really triggered somethingwhere I was like, this is
something I'm interested in, andthat thirst for learning and it
(06:25):
really, really kind of ignitedagain.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (06:27):
Awesome.
Now, part of what makes yourcareer so fascinating to me is
that yes, you do great work asneuro optometrists, and I would
love for you to tell us a littlemore about that.
But also there's a term calledportfolio career, which means
that you are doing more than onething that you really care
about.
And so tell us about all thework that you do in and outta
(06:50):
the exam room.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (06:52):
Yeah, for sure.
So just like when we weretalking about your story as
well, how trying to make yourweek.
Different and make itinteresting so that it doesn't
all blend together.
Similarly, my weeks are quite abit different and what I do
during the week or that monthcan vary quite a bit.
So typically I do try to takeFridays off work and that was
(07:12):
something I tried to do in thelast year or so just to catch up
on admin stuff.
So I am my own boss, so I dohave a lot of admin work to do
and I was finding, I was doing.
Work on Sundays and Saturdaysand it became a seven day a week
type of thing, which as youknow, like that can make work
less enjoyable as well.
So I've tried to take Fridaysoff.
(07:34):
That's been a big thing.
Now, whether that's worked,sometimes that works.
It ends up filling up.
Today's Friday I have some stuffto do, but my weeks change, so I
do regular optometry two days aweek now, which is good.
I enjoy it two days a week.
It's good for me.
I see lots of patients and I getthe disease part of it.
Then I do two days a week ofNeuroVisual rehab.
(07:55):
I see post-concussion patients,patients who've had eye turns,
kids with reading issues andcoming up with solutions on
those fronts.
And then I do sports vision aswell.
So for instance, I've reallyspecialized in hockey goalies.
Um, so I have three goaliescoming in this afternoon and in
different various levels, likesome are.
(08:15):
Right there at the NHL level.
Some are in the junior level andsome are in the younger age
group, and we really work onquickness reflex reaction speed.
So that would be.
Outta the exam room because wego outside, we do some ball
drills, we do vision thingsoutside.
So it's fun for me.
I get to be out there doing itas well.
And then I get to do somespeaking events.
Next week I'm heading toactually the University of
(08:37):
Waterloo for with the fourthyear students, and we're doing a
contact lens seminar along withpresentation, which I love
speaking, so I get to do some ofthat stuff as well.
So definitely a variety, which Ireally enjoy.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (08:49):
Perfect.
Yeah, and I think the variety iskey to kind of sustain that
energy too.
Sometimes taking a step a littlebit away from whatever task kind
of helps you re-energize whenyou come back.
So yeah.
How do you feel
Dr. Riyad Khamis (09:02):
about, I would say like in terms of your
experience too, trying to take afew days off during the week?
Because I know you worked for awhile, it was six to seven days
a week that you were working aswell, right?
Yes.
So did you find that made a bigdifference?
Dr. Fred H. Cho (09:16):
Oh yeah, a hundred percent.
I used to work six, seven daysfor years until eventually
burned out.
I think sometimes having a busywork schedule is actually good.
If you have too much time off,that's also not great.
Yes, there are some psychologystudies that looked at what is
the ideal amount of free timeand too much free time is also
(09:36):
stressful and too little freetime is also stressful and
everyone has that kind ofgoldilock zone in the middle.
Yeah.
That is ideal for them andthat's the reason why.
Six days a week just won't workfor everybody either.
Right.
So I would say yes, it, itdefinitely made a big impact on
my wellbeing.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (09:55):
Yes, for sure.
And I think that.
Sometimes we think of work aswhen you're actually in the
office, but all the other stuffor the admin stuff, or when
you're at home doing emails orcatching up, you're still
technically working.
So needing the time off isimportant in terms of at least a
day or two a week.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (10:12):
Definitely.
Now, I'm curious if there was aspecific moment that triggered
the shift to work outside theexam room, and specifically this
is like the sports vision or thecontact lenses speaking that you
do on the road.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (10:27):
I've always enjoyed multiple things and I, I
think that was something fromthe beginning.
I started into private practiceright away and buying into a
practice and just being my ownboss at that point.
I always thought of being ableto apply all these different
areas to my career, and I thinkthat you have this vision of
(10:47):
doing it, but it's not.
An easy thing.
Sometimes it's connections,right?
You meet people.
For instance, I was alwaysinterested in speaking and I
thought maybe I could go intoteaching at some point in my
career.
I thought it would be later onin my career, but I got an
opportunity where I met one ofthe contact lens reps at the
time, and then he ended upmoving up and becoming one of
(11:08):
the head of contact lens inCanada in that company.
And I started speaking for thema a handful of years ago, and I
really enjoyed it.
I tried to do as good of a jobas I could, and I've slowly
gotten to do that more and more.
So sometimes it's just aboutbuilding connections.
You have these plans, but younever know exactly where they're
gonna go, so it's just you kindof roll with it and take the
(11:28):
opportunities as they present.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (11:30):
Yeah.
I think the networking is reallypowerful and I wish we were
taught that even more in school.
Right?
Yeah.
These are like soft skills thatare critical for your career
development that we didn'treally learn about, but I know
you, you're always good atnetworking and you're always
positive, so you're great atattracting other people and so,
(11:50):
right.
I can see how that played agreat role in your career as
well.
Great
Dr. Riyad Khamis (11:54):
role, and I would say networking definitely
didn't.
Is easy to me either though.
Mm-hmm.
Because as you said, it's notsomething we really learned.
And it's different'cause whenyou're younger or you're in
school and you're trying tonetwork, what it really is is
you trying to learn or get valuefrom someone else.
(12:14):
And the problem with that isthat person that you're coming
to also has.
50, 60 other students trying todo the same thing.
So it's not really networking atthat point.
It's you trying to get somevalue from someone else and
who's really, really busy.
And I found that as a student,there wasn't that two-way value
type of thing, if that makessense.
Whereas networking's differentnow.
(12:36):
So I, so I didn't enjoy it and Iwas never great at it in terms
of getting ahead or trying to bethe one that asks a ton of
questions, which is probablylike a lot of people listening,
right?
Yeah.
Like we don't love.
Having to ask a bunch ofquestions or being that person
that's like hands up first allthe time.
Yes.
But I found now it's a littledifferent now that we can add
(12:56):
value to other people.
Networking is so much moreimportant because people wanna
learn from you as much as youwanna learn from other people.
So there's that value is, is twoways and, and now all of a
sudden networking becomes a lotmore engaging because you can
chat about different things andattend events.
Where you start to get to knowpeople.
(13:17):
So I found it super valuable.
But yeah, as you said, it's notsomething that you learn in
school, but it's such animportant tool and, uh,
especially as you further yourcareer, you never know which
opportunities will present thatway as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (13:31):
Oh yeah.
I think that's really insightfulfor your students talk coming up
as well.
And I'm actually, I'm writing anarticle about, exactly about
this topic, which is to havemore of an outward focus.
One clear example is when youtry to collaborate with people,
it really should be a win-win,right?
(13:52):
Like, how do I create value forthem?
Too often I think we approachthe situation with, what can I
get out of this?
But yes, but it's actually, ifyou flip it and think about what
can I do for them?
What problem can I solve forthem, then that actually helps
them wanna work with you more.
And it's more of a right kind ofgenuine, right.
(14:14):
A mutual.
Yeah.
Kind of.
Yeah.
Partnership for sure.
And
Dr. Riyad Khamis (14:17):
that's exactly it.
I always thought when Igraduated and as a student that
I was thinking, those peoplethat helped me out, I always
wanna be that person.
Mm-hmm.
And I still do, but nowadays Iget emails pretty constantly and
it's usually from studentsbecause we're in London and
Westerns right here.
Asking to shadow, and every timesomeone comes to shadow, it's
great.
Like I get to meet someone, butit's also like I have to explain
(14:39):
everything that they, they'rereally new to optometry, so they
don't know, and they have to bein the room, so it takes up more
of my time.
So just because we get so manystudents now emailing, it's
unfortunately, I, I don't end upreplying to a lot of them.
So, so that's, that's exactly itis if, if they can provide value
or if you meet them in personsomewhere.
It's a lot more personal than,than just getting an email being
(15:00):
like, can I come in this day?
And shadow, I'm reallyinterested in optometry.
Right.
Because those, those happenquite often now.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (15:07):
Yeah, for sure.
Now, just circling back to earlypart of your journey, if you can
think back to when your careerstarted expanding in all these
other ways, can you tell us alittle bit about what you were
thinking at the time and ifthere were challenges when you
were trying to branch out of theexam room?
Yeah.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (15:27):
For sure.
I can tell you, I don't knowwhat I was thinking.
I was a big risk taker, which isI was having this conversation
the other day.
Mm-hmm.
And, and by no means are we, arewe way in our career, but I find
that I'm a little bit less of arisk taker already than I was
five, six years ago.
The reason that this came upwas, I'll kind of tell you my
thoughts at the time, at secondhalf of my residency, I was
(15:48):
like, okay, I'm gonna start avision therapy practice.
And for those of you who don'tknow vision therapy, it's.
Basically a referral onlyprocess.
So it's not like a regularoptometry where you get people
calling in and saying, I wannabook an eye exam.
There's a ton of people.
Vision therapy really relies onpeople referring new patients.
So when I first decided that Iwanna open my clinic, we bought
(16:09):
into a practice.
The upstairs had a tiny room,like it wasn't more than 10 by
10 or maybe a little bit larger.
It was basically a storage.
They had stuffed everything foryears into this room.
We cleaned that whole thing out.
I was with my parents, they werehelping me at the time, and I
set up the vision therapypractice in that upstairs room.
We painted it.
We put all these charts and gotall the equipment that I brought
(16:31):
over.
Then I realized like, I don'tknow anyone in London.
I don't know a singlepractitioner.
I don't know anyone.
How am I starting a practicewith just me?
Then I found out there was othervision therapy practices in
London and a couple of new onesopening up.
It really kind of hit me thatI'm like, I don't know what I'm
doing here.
Like we put in all this work, Ibought all this, and at the
(16:52):
time, vision therapy equipmentisn't super expensive, but when
you come out of school or aresidency, you don't have a ton
of money, so you invest a, itseems like a lot at the time,
so.
I remember thinking that, andjust like anything, it started
out really slow.
A couple months where I had onepatient referred over and I
would do my regular optometrypractice.
I would do this in the evening,and it was just me and I would
(17:14):
just be doing the therapymyself.
And then slowly one patientturned into two, which turned
into four, and then my namestarted getting outta there, and
then all of a sudden I.
It was, okay, well, we're toobig for this room.
Let's go to another building.
We bought a big building andnow, yeah, fast forward five,
six years and it's almost like ahundred patients a week now
coming in.
Oh yeah.
(17:34):
So yeah, it's quite the journey.
It's one of those things where Ihad a vision and I was willing
to take a risk, and I neverreally thought it would fail,
but.
There's a few months whereyou're like, okay, this isn't
really generating any revenuehere.
The things work out.
You work hard.
And I was fortunate that way.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (17:51):
Well, firstly, I really appreciate that you're
sharing these moments ofvulnerability and like those
moments where you question yourchoices, like, can I really do
this is gonna work?
Because when somebody looks atyour career now as a whole, I
think this guy's verysuccessful.
He's got a lot of good thingsgoing on and it's hard to relate
(18:11):
sometimes.
And, but it's Right.
It's helpful to hear that.
Yes.
Like everybody has these momentsof doubt and just, it's not
always sunshine.
Right.
Right.
Um, these times where you're notsure, and so if I can dive in a
little more on those momentsYeah.
What helped you get throughthose moments of doubt, those
months of slow growth?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (18:33):
Yeah.
I think two things.
One is I had a good, I had agood amount of time to plan, so
I had.
The structure and everything,how I want it to be really, uh,
kind of in my head.
I also had a good, other thanjust the mentor I talked about
there, I actually shadowed a fewpractices while I was there and
really got a good idea of how avision therapy practice runs or
(18:53):
how it would efficiently runbecause there was a really
efficient clinic there and Itook a ton of notes in my head.
I was like, this is how it, thisworks.
I'm gonna follow this exactstructure so I don't have to
make a ton.
It.
New decisions.
I figured I could make those newdecisions later, but if I follow
the structure initially, then atleast it takes one less variable
out of the equation.
(19:13):
So when it was slow and it waslike, okay, I'm trying to build
my name, I'm trying to build mypractice, I still had that
vision of how I wanted toeventually look and eventually
run.
Then the second part of it isjust doing a good job, right?
If you're passionate about whatyou're deciding to do, and I
was, I was truly passionateabout helping people, and I
(19:34):
still am.
I remember my first couplepatients, they had brain
injuries and they were reallystruggling.
I remember my first one,actually.
She came in.
She's like, Dr.
Camis, I've been struggling forthree years.
I haven't been able to work, Ihaven't been able to late leave
my house, and I can only barelywalk my dog.
You're my last hope, like I'mreally relying on you.
And that was my first braininjury patient.
(19:56):
And I remember coming outta thatroom and being like, what did I
get myself into?
Yeah.
Um, but then we worked at it andat the time I only had a few
patients, so I actually gavethem my cell number as well.
If I don't do that anymore,because there was times where I
would get calls a lot and Ibecame almost like a therapist.
But yeah, I was really investedand she got better and that was
(20:16):
actually my first success caseis she got to the point where
she got back to work.
She's back to functioning.
She wrote me a really, reallynice letter and was like, you
really helped me.
This really was a huge help inkind of my recovery, and I'll
never forget it.
And just from that I was hooked.
I was like, this is what I'mgonna be doing.
And the practice organicallygrew through that because she
(20:36):
would tell people or that personreferring her, and slowly, it's
almost that snowball effect,right?
And more people hear about itand more success stories, and
all of a sudden now it's abigger thing and you're busier,
which is great.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (20:49):
I think the passion is important because
sometimes that's really whathelps you keep pushing.
Even when things get reallytough, you're not sure, but if
you combine what I would say islike passion plus helping other
people together, then that isreally kind of the recipe for
(21:10):
success, I think, andfulfillment, right?
It's not just accolades.
You're really aligned with yourown passions and.
Fulfillment from helping others,which is why optometry as a base
is very rewarding.
I actually was talking to alawyer friend of mine and he
said, I'm so jealous that youguys are in healthcare because
(21:31):
in my field, if I win, the otherguy loses.
And if they win, it's like azero sum game.
But then for you guys, everybodywins and you're helping
everyone, which I think isreally interesting.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (21:43):
Yeah, that is interesting and I think that one
of the other things you said aswell is when you're doing the
same thing and maybe you'reapproaching burnout, your
passion starts to leave a littlebit.
And I think people see that,right?
Like patients can tell when, oh,yes, yes, their doctor's a
little bit more checked out,where all of a sudden now you
change a few things.
You're back to being passionateabout it.
It really shows.
(22:04):
I think they can tell a lot ofthat as well.
And how engaged you are, howmuch you're explaining to them,
all of that stuff as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (22:11):
For sure, for sure.
Now, RI know you're gonna enjoythis question'cause you're a big
mindset guy.
So what practices, habits,mindsets, help you stay grounded
and align with what reallymatters to you?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (22:26):
I think the, the positivity part of it, I've
been always a positive personand naturally that comes to me
is always looking on the brightside of things and always
thinking of how things mightwork out type of things.
Well, so that's always beenimportant to me as well.
Taking mental breaks I think isimportant as well.
(22:46):
For me, sports is a big one,playing sports, so just even
golfing.
I've started to golf over thelast four or five years, and one
of the things I enjoy aboutgolfing is.
Golfing's such a tough sport.
All you're thinking about istrying to figure out the golf
course or how do I avoid thewater?
And all of a sudden you don'tthink about anything else.
So you're just kind of taking abreak and it's just you versus
(23:08):
the golf course or even just anytype of activity.
Swimming, working out, thingslike that are important to, to
keep me grounded I would say isreally important.
And then.
There's times where things gettough, right?
Like when staff leaves and youhave to do all the day-to-day
stuff.
But just kind of thinking of theend goal and the big picture,
like I'm a big picture guy, sothinking big picture on how you
(23:31):
want things to be is reallyimportant, I think for me as
well, and helps me stay groundedthere.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (23:36):
Yeah, that's great.
And is there something thatpeople sometimes misunderstand
about your career or the paththat you chose?
I mean, I think it's easy tosee, like the great things that
you've done.
I'm just curious if there arethings that people don't
understand.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (23:53):
I think that just hard work, right?
I think that nothing comes easy.
I've never been the type ofperson that, even in school,
some people can say, I think youwere, you were pretty good,
smart that way, right?
You could be in class and absorbthings.
You don't have to always show upto class.
You naturally could absorbstuff, right?
I've never been that personlike.
The only way I get ahead is justhard work and, and for me,
(24:15):
that's just outworking people.
But yeah, there's tough timeswhere I had one recently where
we had a staff member leave andI was on vacation and I was
like, oh man, I was supposed todisconnect here.
Mm-hmm.
And I've been doing interviewsat like 2:00 AM because we were
in Europe and Wow.
And it was like one of thosethings that yeah, you don't love
doing at the time, but.
It ends up working out and it'ssomething you have to do.
(24:37):
So yeah, there's stuff thatthat's good, but it all requires
hard work and sometimes doingstuff you don't really love all
the time, but there's that endgoal in mind.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (24:45):
Certainly.
I've done a talk for TMU.
Yeah.
Emily Ryon.
And I know we chatted about howa lot of students just want
their dream job right awaywithout the hard work.
Yes.
And that's not really how thingswork.
You have to put in the worknetwork.
You know, get new skills inorder to work up to it.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (25:07):
Yeah.
One of the things I've learnedtoo is, especially going into
the sports part of it now, so asI've worked with professional
teams, I just had a message theother day by someone being like.
I really love the work you do.
Can I shadow you?
Can I learn all this stuff?
And the thing about it is I hada lot of rejections, especially
coming into the sports part ofit by coaches, by teams where I
(25:31):
would email and I remember whenI first started, I emailed every
single goalie coach around thearea and I was like, this is
what I do.
And I had no responses.
I probably put together 20 to 30emails.
Mm-hmm.
And no one responded to me.
Mm-hmm.
And then all of a sudden you getone connection, same sort of
thing.
You do a good job, you getanother connection.
And all of a sudden now theLondon Knights, which is one of
(25:53):
the biggest hockey organizationshere in town, along with another
junior team, like I'm getting inwith them and I work with them,
and all of a sudden now peopleare coming to me and asking me
those questions, but.
Still the fact that you reallyhave to be okay with being
rejected or someone being like,ah, I don't really, I don't
really need this or, or youprobably don't really gimme much
value and that's okay'cause thenext person might.
(26:14):
So that's been important aswell.
If it happens, that's fine, keepgoing.
But eventually you'll make aconnection that actually helps
you there as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (26:22):
Yeah, that's certainly interesting because
sometimes you just have to getthrough all those nos and just
keep believing yourself.
Yeah, I read recently that theColonel Sanders, the KFC guy.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (26:34):
Yeah.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (26:34):
He went to over a thousand, I think.
Uh, restaurants to try to sellhis recipe.
Bet.
So it wasn't until over athousand that he actually got
his Yes.
And now of course, it's like anational success worldwide.
Oh, that,
Dr. Riyad Khamis (26:47):
that's such a, a good analogy.
'cause yeah.
All you need is the one Yes.
And all of a sudden one Yes.
Leads to another Yes.
Which leads to another.
Yes.
And now you have morecredibility because you know
other people.
And it's that first one that youjust need to get in the door
and.
It may be a thousand nos, butall you need is a yes.
Right.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (27:05):
Well, if I were him though, I would've started
questioning my recipe.
Like maybe it's not very good.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (27:11):
Yeah.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (27:12):
Now, this is a great question.
I, I really want to hear youranswer on this one.
Uh, what does a happy careerlook like for you today?
And has that definition changedover time?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (27:24):
I think more recently.
The most valuable commodity Ifound is time.
And I remember hearing thatsomewhere and I thought, you
know what?
That's actually a good concept.
The business owner, you'realways trying to save costs and
you're like, I'm gonna do thisbecause it's cheaper, or this
weight is more efficient.
Then you get to the point whereyou're like, I can almost only
(27:45):
save so much.
'cause the important thing is ifI can get people to help me free
up my time, that's so much morevaluable.
And I think that's something Ihopefully will transition into
my career with, with being ableto still keep up everything I'm
doing, but adding more time intomy life as well and having more
time for the important things aswell.
But having said that, goals inthe future would be, I really
(28:08):
enjoy sports.
So I think the sports side of itis a really good area, which for
me, I don't really considerwork.
I mean, I do get compensated forit, but I think that's more of
just like a fun thing that I do,and I don't even consider it
like work.
I love the concussion neuro sideof things, so I don't see myself
ever leaving that.
It's nice because I get a goodhour with the patients a lot of
(28:30):
the time, and we can explainstuff we can talk about.
And with the more experience Ihave, I can really bring that to
the table in helping people.
I still love optometry andoptometry disease, things like
that, so I would always wannakeep that going one or two days
a week.
So just the variety.
I really like where I am at, Ithink.
Just from a goal oriented sportstandpoint, maybe continue to
(28:52):
move up in the sports world anddoing things like this, like
talking with podcasts orspeaking or consulting.
But I do think the time part isvaluable too.
'cause you can only take on somuch.
And I think that figuring outwhat works in terms of keeping
your time open is important aswell.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (29:09):
Yeah.
So when I hear your answer,really two things come to mind.
The first is that the workhappiness can't exist in a
vacuum.
Like you have other areas ofyour life that are important to
you.
Could be relationships, could behealth, self-care.
So if you don't have enough timefor other things, you can have a
(29:30):
perfect job and you're stillgonna be not happy.
And so I love that you broughtthat up.
The second thing is that yourpassions in your life seem very
aligned with.
So your passion for speaking,for sports vision and using your
expertise to help others, so Ican see that your life and work
(29:53):
are very well integratedtogether.
Right, which is a recipe forlasting work happiness.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (30:00):
Exactly.
That's perfect.
And I think that from alongevity standpoint, I hope to
be doing this till I'm.
80 or 90 years old if possible.
So yeah, I would say for thenext many years I'll be enjoying
it,
Dr. Fred H. Cho (30:14):
for sure.
Now, I know you're a big sportsguy.
If you had a career highlightreel, what moment has to be in
there?
It could be big or small, butanything that made you go, wow,
I'm really doing this.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (30:28):
Definitely the first part was the one where I
talked about how we were in thatlittle small room and I was just
by myself, and then all of asudden, now we have a building
in downtown London and I seepatients coming in and out all
the time and just being happyand enjoying it.
I remember going to my firstLondon Nights game when I moved
to London and I went with afriend and again, had zero
(30:50):
hockey connections, had anythinglike that, but there was 10,000
screaming fans.
I was like, you know, one dayI'm gonna work with this team.
I remember telling him that andhe's like, oh, okay.
Interesting.
I don't think he really took itthat seriously.
And then same thing in Edmonton.
When we went to an Oilers game,I was like, this is really cool.
I wanna work here as well.
And I don't work with theOilers, but I work with the Oil
Kings and we work in the samearena at Rogers Place, and I get
(31:11):
all the integration with them aswell.
So that's another moment thatI'm pretty proud of.
And then just over the years,the patients, right?
Like the stories, the helpingpeople, and there's the numerous
ones where.
They came in with not a lot ofhope or struggling and being
able to help them and really gettheir life back on track, I
think creates a highlight reelon its own.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (31:30):
I don't know if you remember this Riyad, but we
were hanging out one timewatching a hockey game and you
just looked over at me and said,you know, one day I'm gonna work
with the NHL team.
And, uh, for the, for thelisteners, Riyad does work with
just below NHL.
Yeah.
Believes Western Hockey League,
Dr. Riyad Khamis (31:45):
the Western or the Ontario hockey.
Yeah.
And.
A really cool moment happenedtwo days ago.
I had my first goalie draftedinto the NHL.
Okay.
So there's a goalie I've beenworking with for two years now,
and the Vancouver Connects, tookhim in the second round and he
was the first Ontario HockeyLeague goalie drafted, and he
comes over and we played pingpong sometimes.
(32:05):
Mm-hmm.
So I texted him right away and Iwas like, oh, congratulations.
And, and so it was a really coolmoment and, and he's a really
good kid and I think he's gonnado big things as well.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (32:12):
So that's huge, man.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (32:14):
Yeah.
Wow.
I can add that to the highlightreel.
I think
Dr. Fred H. Cho (32:18):
that's awesome.
Now, if someone is feeling stuckor unfulfilled in their current
role, what is the one small stepthat you suggest that they take?
I.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (32:28):
I would say go back to your goals and, and your
vision.
Always, no matter what you do,and no matter how stuck you are
and you're in your dailyroutines, always have that
vision in the back of your mindof where you want to be.
'cause you never know whenyou'll make that connection or
which event you'll attend, andthen your vision can start to
come to life.
So never forget that initialvision.
(32:50):
Whatever your passion is andwhether you see your career
going.
In the daily grind or whereveryou're at, just always have that
vision in the back of your mind.
And when you have free time,take those baby steps to start
to try to integrate into thatvision that what you want might
not happen right away, mighthappen in four or five years,
but if you have that vision, youcan keep building towards that
(33:11):
and eventually build the careerthat you enjoy.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (33:15):
Yeah, I think that's a great advice.
And ultimately it's just puttingyour work out there, right?
Like consistency trumpseverything.
And if you just put in thelittle work day in and day out,
then surely you'll get to yourdestination.
And then I guess we can wrap upthe podcast with a more of a fun
question.
So what is something outside ofwork that brings you the most
(33:37):
joy?
What brings you the most joy?
Well,
Dr. Riyad Khamis (33:41):
I will say a Sunday.
Afternoon, 1:00 PM sitting on mycouch watching football.
I don't like to sit for a longtime.
Yeah.
But I can sit for five, sixhours straight.
Yeah.
Just, just watch football andjust kind of turn off my brain.
I would say I always lookedforward to the Sundays.
Even when I was in school, ISunday afternoons from my time,
(34:03):
I didn't do any work, didn't doanything.
Just enjoyed.
I've gotten into gardening morerecently, which has been
interesting.
We're going some vegetables inthe garden, sometimes just
mm-hmm.
Hand in the dirt.
All of that stuff is, is fun aswell.
I like being outside and hiking,all that stuff.
Also.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (34:17):
Well, I gotta say, as long as I've known you,
you've always enjoyed thoseSunday football times.
Yeah.
Do you remember when we went tosee Alabama football team?
Dr. Riyad Khamis (34:26):
Yes.
That was wild.
The
Dr. Fred H. Cho (34:27):
stadium was massive.
Dr. Riyad Khamis (34:29):
Yeah, the college football, there was, I
remember everything that they doin Alabama revolves around the
football or Saturday footballdown there.
So that was a lot of fun and Ithink that to this day, I watch
Alabama and I remember fondlythat, or Sweet Home, Alabama
comes on and I was like, Iremember those times.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Fred H. Cho (34:50):
Well, this was really fun.
I'm glad that we're doing thisagain, and I just want to thank
our listeners for their time on20 Happy Careers with Dr.
Fred and Riyad.
If you found this helpful, wewould love for you to subscribe,
share, or leave a comment.
Join us next time as we rethinksuccess and what it means to
love your work.
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Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.