August 11, 2025 • 35 mins
A thriving work culture is the backbone of a team's success and happiness.
In this episode of 20/Happy Careers, Drs. Fred and Riyad sit down with Michael Van de Ven, Business Unit Director of Bausch & Lomb, to uncover how building a positive work culture and a supportive team can transform not only your workplace, but your entire career trajectory.
From the art of delegation to the discipline of long-distance running, Mike shares lessons on leadership, preventing burnout, and staying connected to your “why.” Whether you lead a team or work within one, you’ll walk away with practical strategies to create an environment where people feel valued, driven, and genuinely happy to show up each day.
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Episode Transcript
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Fred H. Cho (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of 20 Happy Careers with
doctors Fred and Riyad, realconversations about the
imperfect path to a happycareer.
name is Dr.
Fred Cho and I'm here with myco-host, Dr.
Riyad Chemist.
Riyad Khamis (00:13):
Today we're gonna be exploring creating great work
culture, building a dynamic teamand how that can dramatically
increase work happiness.
we have a fantastic guestjoining us today, which we're
super excited about.
Mike, is originally from London,Ontario, and he graduated from
Western University in 2011 andquickly developed his experience
in different fields of marketingand sales within the hospitality
(00:35):
and consumer packaged goodindustries.
In 2016, he joined Bosch and Lamas a territory manager, working
closely with optometrists andopticians to build strong
relationships and educate oncontact lens innovation.
In late 2017, he transitioned tohis first leadership roles as
regional sales manager whileleading the development of
Canadian training program fornew hires.
(00:57):
Over the next four years, Mikeevolved his understanding and
expertise in people management,marketing, key accounts and
professional strategy throughvarious projects, which led to
promotions to the national salesdirector in 2011 and his current
position of business unitdirector for Bosch and Law and
Vision Care Canada in 2023, Imet Mike.
Seven or eight years ago now.
(01:17):
And, It's been great.
He's one of the most driven,people I know and I've learned a
lot about leadership.
so Mike, yeah.
We'll pass it over to you.
How are you doing?
Mike Van de Ven (01:27):
I'm good.
I appreciate you having me onthe show.
And, I do have to say up frontthat everything we talk about
today is a reflection of mypersonal opinion.
Not a reflection of Boston law,but I'm very.
Excited to answer your questionsand hopefully it's helpful for
everybody that's listening in.
Fred H. Cho (01:44):
Awesome.
And here we like to start offwith a tough question.
So was there ever a time youdidn't enjoy your work and what
was the key to findingfulfillment?
Again,
Mike Van de Ven (01:56):
that question to start, especially after the
way that, riyad pumped my
Riyad Khamis (02:01):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (02:02):
introduction being the most driven, motivated
person.
but listen, there are timeswhen, you're not getting the
same satisfaction from your job.
And the time that I can think ofoff the top of my head would be
when I was outta university, Iactually.
Was a marketing manager for abar and restaurant, and I did
that for about three years.
(02:23):
And I remember the first twoyears, you're outta school,
you're making a pretty goodsalary.
It's a great job just from asocial aspect, people to this
day still see how interconnectedI'm in London just because I
held that job.
But in my final year, theindustry was just changing over.
The bar wasn't successful as itpreviously was.
(02:46):
And when you're the marketingmanager for a bar and
restaurants, that was typicallya popular place.
And you can see it start to movein the opposite direction.
It becomes challenging.
And, part of the challenges,were just changes in the
industry, but also, the group ofpeople that typically came out
(03:06):
with me earlier in my career,they were also entering
different stages of their livesas well.
So it's like when you try tohost a big party and nobody
shows up.
but you have to sit there and itout till the end of the party.
the few people that are therelook around at you and wonder
(03:27):
like, why aren't there morepeople here?
So for me that was very humblingand, it was probably the least
enjoyable part of my career thatlast year.
However, one of the biggestmistakes that anybody can make
in their career is.
Holding on too long and notunderstanding when it's time to
move on.
And you know that was the firstthing that made me realize, it's
(03:50):
time for me to move on.
And there's also, a betteropportunity for me to
reinvigorate myself with anotheropportunity.
And that's actually how Ireinvigorate myself with moving
over to PepsiCo beverages on thesales side.
And I went from the high of thebar to the low of the bar.
And then going into PepsiCo andI was very successful in, my
(04:13):
first couple months I had madean impact and the way it
reinvigorated me was it broughtmy confidence up and it made me
realize that I was enough as anindividual contributor.
And it really gave me thatconfidence to believe that I
could do more and I could pushmyself a little bit further,
which also transferred over intoother areas of my life as well.
Riyad Khamis (04:35):
Perfect.
Yeah, I think that as you talkedabout a lot of the stuff, you
take things from yourexperiences and even though you
might be at the point whereyou're like, I think it's time
to move on, you take littleexperiences from everyone and
take to your next career there.
And I've seen that as well as.
Also, so let's hop into, thejourney part of it and some of
the stuff that we wanna chatabout in the podcast.
one of the things that I knowyou are great at, and I've
(04:57):
learned from you as well, iscreating a positive work culture
and creating an environment,that people are excited to be
in.
So, first, let's start withthat.
So how important is a positiveculture and what does a positive
culture mean to you?
Mike Van de Ven (05:12):
so a positive culture is everything
essentially.
one thing I've learned actually,and I'll quote, somebody that's
an external mentor for me.
he said when people jump fromcompany to company, they're
trying to find, grass that'sgreener on the other side, but
ultimately it doesn't matterwhere you go.
(05:34):
Every company is gonna havetheir challenges, different
challenges, but there's alwaysgonna be challenges.
So when you have a strongculture where people listen to
each other, they enjoy workingwith each other.
And they truly believe in thevision for the company.
Then when those challengeshappen, are more likely to band
(05:54):
together and still perform at ahigh level versus exit the
business.
And that's why it's soimportant.
And the culture is one of thetoughest things to build.
it can be, 2, 3, 5, 10 yearcycle to get really truly the
right attitude.
But that makes the bigdifference.
And you want to know.
When different challenges arehappening that you can look to
(06:16):
your left and you can look toyour right and everybody's the
same vision and is gonna haveeach other's backs.
And that's really what generatesthat great culture that leads to
the success that I've seen in mycareer.
Riyad Khamis (06:27):
Yeah, and I've heard stories where people say,
and this is actually associateoptometrists were saying this,
where two clinics that were theexact same, almost like how they
opt.
Rate how they charged hours.
But they preferred the one wherethey go in and they just love
it.
They feel motivated, and morethan money.
That was the motivation there.
It was just that, that positiveculture.
(06:48):
And when building that greatenvironment?
What qualities do we look for inpeople?
and I think this is a big onefor all of us when we're trying
to figure out what people wouldfit in, what wouldn't.
So is there any particularthings you tend to look.
For.
Mike Van de Ven (07:03):
At least from my experience, you usually know
if you're gonna hire somebodywithin the first 10, 15 minutes
of an interview.
And it's how they presentthemselves, their infectious
personality, and especially inthe sales world, that's so
important.
So I call it the X factor.
And that's a skill that you'reborn with.
It can't be
Riyad Khamis (07:19):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (07:19):
just that.
Being able to connect withpeople in general.
So that's always a foundationalpiece that I think helps drive
the culture'cause.
When you're bringing that to thetable internally, people like to
work with you and collaborate,and then when you bring it out
externally, customers wanna workwith you and buy from you.
So it ends up, working twofold,
Riyad Khamis (07:39):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (07:40):
is one of the biggest things I look for.
I love when a new person entersthe business and they're just
asking questions and they wannalearn, and that openness with
the curiosity also leads tobeing coachable.
So they're asking the questionsand they're taking the answers,
the guidance you're giving themEven if they are unsure if it's
gonna work.
They're like, I'm gonna try it.
(08:00):
And the third thing is, thatconfidence and ability to
actually go and try thedifferent things when they're
outta their comfort zone, thosethings make a huge difference.
So when you bring all thosedifferent things together, you
get someone that's reallysuccessful.
And you ask this question, I'lljust give a micro example.
(08:21):
we had a newer rep.
That started with us, justroughly at the start of the
year, the first night we were atdinner, and I can see in my
peripheral that this chair isscooching up beside me, and she
sits down and she says, I lookedat your LinkedIn and it said the
first year you were a rep, yougrew your territory by this
(08:42):
amount.
Can you tell me all the thingsthat
Riyad Khamis (08:44):
Oh wow.
Mike Van de Ven (08:45):
And it was one of the most impressive
Riyad Khamis (08:49):
They asked.
Mike Van de Ven (08:50):
It's like she hunted me down.
was confident enough to go andask those questions and
genuinely just wanted to learn.
It really.
just demonstrates exactly thequalities that you look for
successful people.
And I'm seeing it with, a few ofour new reps right now, they
feel the same way.
And even though they're still inthe learning phase, it's like
(09:11):
you can see the success thatthey're going to have just
because they have that attitude.
It's very rarely that you seesomebody that, carries that
ambition, that curiosity, thatcoachability where they're not
successful.
Riyad Khamis (09:25):
Right.
And I've met so many people thatyou've brought onto the team and
I can kinda attest to howeveryone is.
Great.
we've had this conversationbefore too, is sometimes what's
on paper like resume isn't asimportant as the conversations
that you have with them.
Mike Van de Ven (09:40):
For sure.
Riyad Khamis (09:41):
and I actually had an interesting example too.
Recently.
We were hiring, And the personcame in and said, I looked
things up and I realized that,you're from a small town con
garden.
And he's like, I used to workthere at this, meat shop and I
hadn't been to that meat shopsince I was probably 14 years
old and we used to get thesebeef peppers my brother and I
all the time.
(10:01):
and it kind of sparked thismemory and we started talking
about that.
And it's like little things likethat when people do their
research a little bit and comeup with these anecdotes, that
personal connection becomesreally important as well.
Mike Van de Ven (10:13):
For sure.
It makes a huge difference.
Riyad Khamis (10:15):
So let's hop onto something that I've seen from
you evolve as a leader, andthat's gonna be delegation.
Did delegation impact yourcareer happiness and do you feel
like it's something that helpswith sustainability as well?
Mike Van de Ven (10:27):
Yeah.
delegation in general, I willsay is always gonna be
Riyad Khamis (10:31):
right.
Mike Van de Ven (10:32):
when you're a high performer and there's
different levels of improvingwith it, and there's different
times where you're challengedwith it.
especially working in a smallercompany, there's less people.
So there's a lot that goes onyour plate regardless of what
position you're in.
And part of being able todelegate is taking the time to
teach one of your directreports, a task that maybe
(10:54):
they're not gonna do.
Perfect the first time and thencoaching them on it until it
gets up to that level, that,you're comfortable fully
delegating to in the future.
But that takes time and there'sfast timelines and things like
that.
So you really have to take thattime as a leader to just
understand, the sweat equitythat you're putting up, up front
(11:14):
to make somebody better that'son your team, but also allow you
to delegate further.
So when I think about mytimeline.
Coming in as a high performingrep into a leadership position
for the first time, like was
Riyad Khamis (11:27):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (11:28):
I had my high expectation, and the first thing
that you're gonna realize iswhen you see behind the curtain.
Not everybody does everythingthe same way as
Riyad Khamis (11:36):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (11:36):
And there's you a certain bar that you have.
Not everybody reaches that bar.
People reach the bar indifferent ways, but ultimately
you have a team that you have tobring to a working level of
success.
So there's a couple keymilestones for me that I had.
within my first year we did astop start continue.
So essentially, it's HR led.
(11:57):
My team would all come togetherin a room and they get to say
what I should start doing, stopdoing and continue doing.
That is very transparent
Riyad Khamis (12:06):
Right
Mike Van de Ven (12:07):
not involved
Riyad Khamis (12:07):
direct.
Mike Van de Ven (12:08):
like that, but like it was very humbling that
was like the first milestonethat helped me start to improve
on that front.
And then the external, factorthat forced me into being a
better delegator was actuallyCOVID.
So, during COVID.
weren't able to go out with repsin the field, like reps weren't
(12:29):
even allowed to go in the fieldfor a while, You couldn't be
there, you couldn't be in thetrenches, you couldn't be
rolling up your sleeves andtrying to do everything.
So it actually took mydelegation skills to a different
level.
And even today, I have to stopmyself and realize that can't do
everything
Riyad Khamis (12:47):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (12:48):
I can't do everything, and I have very
capable people around me.
So it's stopping yourself,trusting your team, and then.
there's opportunities to trainand develop, so that delegation
becomes more organic justbecause of the people around you
and their capabilities.
Riyad Khamis (13:04):
That's really interesting so I'm assuming like
when the stop doing, there wassome constructive criticism I
think a lot of people don't likehearing that stuff about
themselves, but it's such animportant thing to grow as a
leader.
How did you handle that?
Mike Van de Ven (13:17):
Yeah, so it's funny, so I've developed some
internal leadership trainingthat I would do for a my
management team or even, repsthat are interested in getting
to management eventually.
And one of the things I show isthe.
All of the results from my firstyear as a manager and it looks
like I'm just pumping my owntires, it's great growth rates,
(13:40):
new program design, all thesedifferent things.
And then I show the stop, start,continue and what was said by
the team.
And you can have these greatresults, but that doesn't
necessarily make you a goodleader.
It makes you a high
Riyad Khamis (13:54):
right.
Mike Van de Ven (13:55):
when I got that, the results from the stop,
sir, continue.
It was the toughest, I'd say,week or two of my career to be
humbled that way.
But, I wake up every day, itreflected, the
Riyad Khamis (14:09):
Right.
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (14:10):
and I can work to be
Riyad Khamis (14:12):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (14:13):
And even growing up playing sports, it
was always the same thing, if acoach gave me hard coaching, I
might be a little
Riyad Khamis (14:22):
Right.
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (14:23):
but after two minutes.
I come back and I alwaysimplemented the
Riyad Khamis (14:27):
Right,
Mike Van de Ven (14:28):
if you think that you know everything and you
think that you're perfect at anylevel of your career, then you
need a stop
Riyad Khamis (14:35):
right.
Mike Van de Ven (14:35):
to
Riyad Khamis (14:35):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (14:36):
you're not so that it actually just opened up
my thinking in general.
And I think it's also reallyhelp me develop leaders in our
business, that are first time,people managers, because I'm
able to show them.
Here's the mistakes I made as afirst time manager.
are your biggest watch outs, andshare my experience.
(14:58):
And I feel I've taken that firsttime leader in our business who
might have started out, fiveoutta 10 in leadership, and now
they're starting out seven outta10, and I say seven outta 10.
'cause leadership, differentthings come up every single day
that you just can't train on,right?
It's just like you have to haveexperience going through all the
(15:19):
different things.
If I can at least start them atseven outta 10, and then they
work themselves up to thateight, nine, and I don't think
anyone ever reaches a
Riyad Khamis (15:27):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (15:28):
leadership
Riyad Khamis (15:28):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (15:29):
but they set up for the most success.
So what I will say in summary isit actually changed my whole
thought process on leadershipand it's really benefited future
leaders that I've been able toevolve within
Riyad Khamis (15:41):
Okay.
And I think that's the biggrowth mindset.
And that's how we grow, right?
in terms of, some challengesthat you've encountered at work,
how did you and your team feellike you overcame them without
getting too overwhelmed andfeeling like this is too much?
Mike Van de Ven (15:57):
you're seeing people.
Feel the burnout because the jobis already
Riyad Khamis (16:03):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (16:03):
it's, it's not for the
Riyad Khamis (16:05):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (16:06):
you that way.
And I have a ton of respect foreverything that our team does.
But then when you add theseother factors on top of it,
people can burn out.
So the biggest thing is one,just making sure that you're
checking in on people.
So you can call somebody just tocheck in on them.
just see how they're doing.
Hey, are you good?
What does your schedule looklike?
What can we take off your plate?
(16:27):
if you feel like somebody'soverwhelmed, Hey, that deadline
that's on Thursday, would it bebetter if you hand it in on
Riyad Khamis (16:33):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (16:33):
you a little extra time.
So it's like having that EQ to
Riyad Khamis (16:36):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (16:37):
what's going on with everybody, professionally
and they'll share personally howthey're doing as well.
It allows you to manage to theperson, which is helpful.
and then the other thing within,managing burnout is.
Just don't take for granted whatpeople are
Riyad Khamis (16:54):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (16:56):
really make sure that you're recognizing
them because recognizing peoplegives them that extra rocket
fuel
Riyad Khamis (17:02):
Yes.
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (17:04):
Find that person that's in the pocket
where they're doing good work,but you can tell that like
they're.
working above capacity and justsay, Hey, I noticed that you've
been doing these things latelyand I just wanna let you know
that.
Like I see you and I appreciateit,
Riyad Khamis (17:21):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (17:21):
and just leave it.
And it's so funny the reactionthat you get from
Riyad Khamis (17:24):
Okay.
Mike Van de Ven (17:25):
because it's is that it?
like you don't
Riyad Khamis (17:29):
What else?
Mike Van de Ven (17:29):
for it.
It's no, I just wanna let youknow.
I see it and it's such a little
Riyad Khamis (17:32):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (17:34):
that helps people get through the burnout.
And then the last thing that's,I'll say from my personal
experiences.
you say I'm the most motivated,disciplined person and that's, I
appreciate, but it can also be afault because the expectations I
set for
Riyad Khamis (17:49):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (17:49):
I'm training for a
Riyad Khamis (17:50):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (17:51):
we had a product launch last year.
I'm training different new teammembers.
There's always lots going on,and when you have a high
standard for everything.
You always want to, do thecliche, I'm gonna give 110%,
what I've realized is the timeswhere I felt burnt out in my
career when I only have 60% leftin the
Riyad Khamis (18:12):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (18:13):
But I'm trying to give 110%.
Riyad Khamis (18:16):
Right on top of that.
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (18:18):
So the biggest thing that I want to communicate
to, not just my team, butanybody that's going through
burnout, is if you have 60% leftin the tank and you're giving a
hundred percent of that 60%,that is enough.
And you need to make sure thatyou take care of yourself
because.
(18:39):
If you're trying to do what youknow I've done in the past, it
will lead to that burnout andit's gonna vary, right?
Maybe on a Monday you're at ahundred percent.
on a Thursday a couple thingshave
Riyad Khamis (18:49):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (18:50):
professionally or personally, and you're at
60%.
Just make sure you go out andgive a hundred percent of
Riyad Khamis (18:54):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (18:55):
and that's already gonna be light years
ahead of most people in thisworld.
And it's like just trying tounderstand what that looks like
and also having the EQ as aleader to sense and understand.
What different people are goingthrough with their different
Riyad Khamis (19:07):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (19:08):
so key to managing
Riyad Khamis (19:09):
Yeah, that's a really good answer.
honestly, I picked up some gemsfrom that one is there any tips
with reconnecting with the whyor going back to that area?
Anything else that you can thinkof on that part?
Mike Van de Ven (19:19):
I'll give you two examples here.
So making sure.
That you're reconnectingeverybody to a common goal and
showing them that what we'redoing has purpose.
If people are working reallyhard and they can't see the end
game or the cliche light at theend of the tunnel, then it's
tough.
So helping people.
See three months, six months, 12
Riyad Khamis (19:40):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (19:41):
and what success could look like and how
what we're doing today iscontributing to it is actually
one of the biggest strengths ofa good leader, in my
Riyad Khamis (19:50):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (19:50):
Now, from a just.
Even like more of a functionalstandpoint.
So one thing that I always tryto do every year is I try to
take a couple different coursesto improve myself professionally
and personally.
Last year, one of the courseswas through Duke.
Riyad Khamis (20:04):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (20:05):
And it was leading, a high performing team
through neuroscience, it talksabout managing burnout with your
team.
And some of the different thingsthat I've adopted with my direct
leadership team is I have themblock their calendars until
10:00 AM every single day.
Riyad Khamis (20:23):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (20:24):
So our rule is they can get their deep work
done and we're not bookingMicrosoft teams meetings or
we're not booking meetings.
So everybody has that eight 30to 10:00 AM to really.
Focus on their deep work whenthey're at max capacity.
And it's insane to see thesuccess and additional
Riyad Khamis (20:42):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (20:43):
that people are able to provide from that and
the positive feedback.
So that really helps withburnout because if you have
meetings gate to gate,
Riyad Khamis (20:50):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (20:51):
And then all of a sudden you get off all your
meetings and you're like, oh, Ihave to do my real job.
Riyad Khamis (20:55):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (20:55):
with everything out, and then it ends up in, in
burnout.
So I thought that's been reallyeffective.
And then the other thing that Itook from this course was, most
people burnouts around theafternoon.
What studies show is somebodygoes for a walk.
for 30 minutes, just disengageand block for 30 minutes.
(21:16):
It actually refuels their brainwith total creativity, which is
going to bring them back to bemore effective again for, the
remaining hours of the day sothat's something else that I've
implemented with my team
Riyad Khamis (21:29):
Interesting cue to everyone getting doodling pads
and pencils and getting readyfor pencil chaos.
Sometimes when you have thosedinners that you guys throw on,
or if you actually go to a CEevent and you learn and all of a
sudden you're like, oh, I'mtaking away dates of work.
But it reinvigorates you andit's falling back in love with
that why of like, Hey, this iswhy I entered this profession in
(21:50):
the first place.
This is what I can do and now Ican take this to the next level.
And it's something I've realizedmore and more as well let's now
chat about something I think youare great at, in terms of
routine and structure, how haveyou implemented that, or how has
that helped you maintain yourcareer as a high performer,
Mike Van de Ven (22:09):
so routine and structure is everything.
If you look at different topperformers that I've worked with
over the years.
Some people are veryentrepreneurial and great with
relationship, They're like, I'ma sales rep, that's why I'm
Riyad Khamis (22:24):
Right.
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (22:25):
kind of thing.
And then there's some peoplethat are.
It's incredible and everyone'sasking what's your secret sauce?
And it's like I have a plan.
I know where I'm going everyweek.
I know what I want to talkabout.
I'm preparing for what they'repotentially gonna say.
And you see that organization inpreparation and they're so
successful just from beingorganized and being able to
(22:46):
execute their priorities thatare in front of them.
And being burnt out and saying,I need to take time off you
really always have to take astep back and say.
Do I actually have a plan?
And there's so many differentthings that you can do, to help
manage that.
there's a lot of the quick wintasks that like, they
Riyad Khamis (23:04):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (23:05):
in your head, but once you write'em down, you
just knock'em off and all of asudden things are more
manageable.
When you're overwhelmed, if youactually just say it out loud
and you hear it for yourself,it's show that you're actually
gonna listen and say you knowwhat?
That sounds a lot less worsethan it
Riyad Khamis (23:22):
Okay.
Mike Van de Ven (23:23):
It's only gonna take me 20 minutes to do that
expense report.
It's not gonna be an hour.
I need to just get outta my ownway and do it.
And you knock it off your list.
So there's little things likethat you can coach people onto
understand the differencebetween burnout and just making
sure that you're creating betterinfrastructure for yourself.
Riyad Khamis (23:40):
Yeah, and I think the routine part of it really,
really important and lists.
I'm getting better at writinglists.
my wife's huge on writing listsand she tells me crossing things
off a list is the mostsatisfying feeling, even if
you've written your own list andon a weekend knock'em off.
It's very satisfying, right?
Just no matter how small it islet's talk a little bit about
(24:01):
success early in your career.
Is there something that youbelieved early in your career,
what success looked like?
And has that changed, like thedefinition of success?
Mike Van de Ven (24:11):
Yeah, I would say that, your success is
measured exclusively by yournumbers.
Riyad Khamis (24:19):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (24:20):
Now that's always gonna be a portion of it
in sales.
But you ask me what I'm the mostproud of in my career when I
first started, like even withBosch and Long, I'd probably
tell you territory grow,innovation that I was able to
contribute to, things like that.
But then you ask me now, and thething I'm the most proud of is
(24:42):
not just our culture, That I'vebeen able to build with
everybody and taking people notjust through their professional
journeys of, a rep to first timeleadership or a head office
position, but also being arounda long enough with the team to
actually grow up with'em in away.
See the personal milestones aswell of, having their first
(25:04):
child, getting
Riyad Khamis (25:05):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (25:06):
different things like that.
And one of the things that,people say is you're gonna leave
a business one day and when youleave, you.
Yeah, gonna forget you in amonth
Riyad Khamis (25:17):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (25:18):
part of that is true.
life always goes on no matterhow important you think you are,
but it is correct that likepeople won't remember the
numbers, they'll remember howyou treated
Riyad Khamis (25:27):
Yes, yes.
Mike Van de Ven (25:28):
So when you think about that impact that you
can have on peopleprofessionally and personally,
it's so great.
And when you have a good cultureand you're able to connect with.
Direct reports, indirectreports, different things like
that.
And I've been fortunate enoughthat I've been able to hire 60%
of the people in our businessunit just with my various
positions here.
It's like you laugh with peopleon a personal level when
(25:52):
something funny
Riyad Khamis (25:53):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (25:55):
you cry with them when you know a family
member is
Riyad Khamis (25:58):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (25:58):
and you celebrate with them, all their
successes and those differentthings.
Are really what I would
Riyad Khamis (26:06):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (26:07):
success as I am now, in, year eight of
leadership and, my 10th yearwithin Bosch and law.
And that is, truly a fundamentaldifference in my thinking from
day one versus
Riyad Khamis (26:20):
Yeah.
And, you can always get betternumbers, chase more territories.
See more patients, but in theend, what are you gonna remember
is the relationships and, andthose milestones.
That's a great answer.
So one thing that I know youlove that I've tried but I
haven't been able tosuccessfully do is running.
I'm always watching from afarand just, impressed about how
(26:40):
much you've accomplished so interms of running, I think you
love it.
Or if you, if you don't, you canalways tell me that as well, but
I know there's lessons fromrunning to career professional,
personal life.
What are some overlaps there?
Mike Van de Ven (26:54):
And this is a great question.
So recently I came back from abig run.
Riyad Khamis (27:00):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (27:00):
And, you come back from a big run and your
endorphins are high, you'refeeling good.
And I actually, for whateverreason, I pulled up my laptop
and I wrote a LinkedIn
Riyad Khamis (27:09):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (27:09):
And the reason I wanted to share it was when I
run, I do it for multiplereasons.
Fitness is always, it has to besomewhere, in your goals and
objectives when you're going outthere and pounding pavement.
also just for like mentalclarity, I find, I move a
(27:30):
hundred miles per hour all thetime, but when I'm running, I am
in just like a complete state offocus Zen.
And my most creative thinkingand reflection happens when I'm
running, so that's why I enjoyit so much.
But one of the things that I seewith a lot of people is.
(27:54):
They'll be like, ah, I see thatyou're running a lot.
I want to get into running.
Will you help me with a plan?
I give them a little bit of aplan and two weeks later I'm
like, how's everything going?
Ah, I did it for a week and ahalf and you know what?
My shins were hurting me.
Or it was just like so hard toget out there.
And of the biggest lessons, totake away from that is running
(28:17):
the first three weeks to a monthare terrible.
Riyad Khamis (28:21):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (28:22):
It's tough.
Your body's getting used to thewear and tear it's a grind to
get out there.
But then once you get past thatpoint, you start to get to, the
distances, the comfort, theadaptation where you start to
get runners high, you start toget that clarity, the maximizing
your endorphins.
(28:42):
it always disappoints me that,some people don't get over that
hump.
Just with anything with life,you have to embrace the sweat
equity
Riyad Khamis (28:49):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (28:50):
that's required knowing that like you're gonna
get to a better spot.
The next thing people say to meis, I see you're currently
training for a marathon.
I think I'm gonna try the samething.
And then they don't come up witha plan and they just go out
there.
And then same thing I ask abouttheir progress.
I ran 16 kilometers in my firsttwo weeks and then I haven't
(29:11):
really run since you have towrite down what your goal is.
You have to follow the plan, orelse you sacrifice your success.
And because there's noaccountability.
So those are two pretty corethings.
If everything in life was easy.
Riyad Khamis (29:26):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (29:27):
everybody would
Riyad Khamis (29:28):
Right.
Doing it
Mike Van de Ven (29:29):
rocket scientists.
You know what I mean?
So you have to go and you haveto put in that sweat
Riyad Khamis (29:34):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (29:34):
to get to the better
Riyad Khamis (29:36):
One, I think there's a lot of parallels
between that and your career andkind of get into setting goals
and doing it.
And two, it's just findingsomething where you can just
switch your brain off.
I was talking to a goalie coachwho had coached in, the NHL, one
thing that I ask is.
What do you enjoy doing?
Like outside of goalie?
And he's like, sometimes it'snice to just have an escape and
(29:56):
especially as goalies wheneverything's kind of pressure
cooking at that age.
He's like, there's a goalie thatsays I just like playing the
piano, or I just like doingsomething unconventional even
golfing, he said is a great oneand it's just trying to get away
and finding your focus
Mike Van de Ven (30:11):
I think that's a great point.
If I'm sensing burnout withsomebody, I'll call them and
I'll say, Hey, you like to do
Riyad Khamis (30:18):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (30:18):
this person likes to go to the gym.
This person likes to go for awalk.
This person likes to play thepiano.
Let's take time make sure thatyou're doing that before you
start your day.
Riyad Khamis (30:28):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (30:29):
things will wait.
Even if you gotta take, sometime in the early morning when
you're on the clock, just get itdone.
Riyad Khamis (30:34):
Mm.
Mike Van de Ven (30:35):
So that's also a good thing to recognize as a
leader.
what are those things thatperson loves to do?
And when you sense burnout, whenyou sense that there's
challenges that are coming upprofessionally or personally for
them that's, creating a heavierworkload just make sure that you
reinforce for them to take thattime while they're getting
themselves back on track.
(30:55):
And it's something that, notonly is effective, but it's so
appreciated and builds into apositive culture.
Riyad Khamis (31:01):
I think that you've been pretty good at is
sticking to things.
when things are challenging,like in the morning where you
don't wanna get up, or let's saythere's a work thing and you're
like, Ugh, now I got so much onmy plate.
How do you get through thosedays?
Mike Van de Ven (31:14):
There's two things that typically go through
my mind.
So Kobe Bryant was known forjust just being so
Riyad Khamis (31:20):
Mamba mentality.
Mike Van de Ven (31:21):
working performer, right?
Even though he was obviously sotalented as well.
And I guess, one year he hadcreated this really intense
summer training program and heis being interviewed about it
and they're like, how do you getyourself out to do it?
And he said, when I created thattraining program, I signed a
contract with myself that I wasgonna go and do this.
So every time that my brain istelling me.
(31:43):
you can't do this, you're tired,everything like that.
I say, no, like I signed a
Riyad Khamis (31:47):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (31:48):
So that's a big thing for me.
And that's almost like writingdown the
Riyad Khamis (31:50):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (31:52):
I'm planning to run a full marathon in October,
and I've run the distancebefore, but I have never done it
in a race.
And I'm not gonna lie, I'm
Riyad Khamis (32:00):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (32:01):
but I've told people now and I've written down
the goal and I have a plan andI'm like, you know what?
I signed that contract withmyself, so I'm gonna get up and
do it.
And then the other thing, itactually plays back into that,
giving a hundred percent, evenif there's 60% left in the tank,
when you.
Get up early and you go to thegym sometimes, you're like, I do
not feel like being here
Riyad Khamis (32:23):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (32:23):
your first set of whatever you're lifting.
You're like, that was a lottougher than it was just last
week.
just being there and showing upis far greater than not going at
all.
When you're feeling like youdon't want to get there, just
bringing at least the bestversion that you can to just
show up.
And that's going to beat themajority of people, in the
Riyad Khamis (32:46):
Yes, yes.
Mike Van de Ven (32:47):
to goal setting and
Riyad Khamis (32:48):
Yeah, showing up huge.
And, and I think that's it.
Okay.
Let's, we're gonna end on a moreof a retrospective question.
If your younger self could seeyou now, what would surprise the
most about your current career?
Mike Van de Ven (33:00):
I appreciate and, always am humbled by the
respect I get for my success ata young age, and also, my
leadership and
Riyad Khamis (33:09):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (33:11):
if you ask that, high school Mike, or even
university Mike.
If he was gonna be doing thisposition, he'd probably say I
don't know.
Riyad Khamis (33:18):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (33:19):
it's, different times of your life.
And I always feel for, kidsgoing outta high school and
university, you just have todecide what you wanna do so
Riyad Khamis (33:27):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (33:27):
you're not necessarily mature enough.
So I'd say the biggest thing isI would look at myself today and
be like, wow, you are enough.
Riyad Khamis (33:34):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (33:35):
You're more than enough.
like you should have neverdoubted yourself.
Never let people tell you that,that there's one path to
Riyad Khamis (33:43):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (33:44):
There's many paths, and it could be a zigzag,
it could be a loop backsometimes, but ultimately, if
you get to where you want to getto, it doesn't matter how you
did.
And actually, sometimes thescenic route
Riyad Khamis (33:57):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (33:58):
provides you with more experience along the
way.
And, the last thing would bejust like being proud knowing
that I've been a good leader to.
Be the guy that opens the doorfor people and giving people the
chance to show their worth andshow what they bring to the
table
Riyad Khamis (34:15):
You've accomplished so much so you've
gotten to probably a lot ofwhere you envisioned yourself
being.
But even if people haven't, orif, as you said, there's.
zigzags and you learn thingsalong the way.
you might be in this stage whereyou're still working towards
that and that's okay as well.
but being just positive aboutall the stuff you have learned
and how you've brought to thetable and starting those career
baby.
(34:35):
Steps to maybe where you want toget to.
Those are some great tips thatyou've thrown in there as well.
I think a lot of people willlearn a lot and hopefully, I
know I feel very motivated to goat next week, but I think a lot
of people will feel motivated aswell.
So, We really appreciate, youbeing on and sharing a really
valuable insight.
I think that a lot of gems hereand, I always enjoy really
(34:56):
talking to you, so it's great
Mike Van de Ven (34:58):
I really appreciate you having me
Riyad Khamis (34:59):
Yeah, for sure.
there's so much more that Iwanted to pick at your brain,
but I don't want to go on forthree or four hours.
I know we probably could.
love to have this conversationagain and I think every year
something else comes up and welearn more and more.
so love to have you again aswell.
and thanks for everyone forlistening to 20 Happy Careers
with Doctors Fred and Riyad.
if you've found this helpful,please subscribe, share, or
(35:20):
leave a comment.
join us next time as we rethinksuccess and what it means to
love your work.
And remember, we aren't justchasing workplace happiness.
We're trying to create it stepby step
Welcome to another episode of 20 Happy Careers with
doctors Fred and Riyad, realconversations about the
imperfect path to a happycareer.
name is Dr.
Fred Cho and I'm here with myco-host, Dr.
Riyad Chemist.
Riyad Khamis (00:13):
Today we're gonna be exploring creating great work
culture, building a dynamic teamand how that can dramatically
increase work happiness.
we have a fantastic guestjoining us today, which we're
super excited about.
Mike, is originally from London,Ontario, and he graduated from
Western University in 2011 andquickly developed his experience
in different fields of marketingand sales within the hospitality
(00:35):
and consumer packaged goodindustries.
In 2016, he joined Bosch and Lamas a territory manager, working
closely with optometrists andopticians to build strong
relationships and educate oncontact lens innovation.
In late 2017, he transitioned tohis first leadership roles as
regional sales manager whileleading the development of
Canadian training program fornew hires.
(00:57):
Over the next four years, Mikeevolved his understanding and
expertise in people management,marketing, key accounts and
professional strategy throughvarious projects, which led to
promotions to the national salesdirector in 2011 and his current
position of business unitdirector for Bosch and Law and
Vision Care Canada in 2023, Imet Mike.
Seven or eight years ago now.
(01:17):
And, It's been great.
He's one of the most driven,people I know and I've learned a
lot about leadership.
so Mike, yeah.
We'll pass it over to you.
How are you doing?
Mike Van de Ven (01:27):
I'm good.
I appreciate you having me onthe show.
And, I do have to say up frontthat everything we talk about
today is a reflection of mypersonal opinion.
Not a reflection of Boston law,but I'm very.
Excited to answer your questionsand hopefully it's helpful for
everybody that's listening in.
Fred H. Cho (01:44):
Awesome.
And here we like to start offwith a tough question.
So was there ever a time youdidn't enjoy your work and what
was the key to findingfulfillment?
Again,
Mike Van de Ven (01:56):
that question to start, especially after the
way that, riyad pumped my
Riyad Khamis (02:01):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (02:02):
introduction being the most driven, motivated
person.
but listen, there are timeswhen, you're not getting the
same satisfaction from your job.
And the time that I can think ofoff the top of my head would be
when I was outta university, Iactually.
Was a marketing manager for abar and restaurant, and I did
that for about three years.
(02:23):
And I remember the first twoyears, you're outta school,
you're making a pretty goodsalary.
It's a great job just from asocial aspect, people to this
day still see how interconnectedI'm in London just because I
held that job.
But in my final year, theindustry was just changing over.
The bar wasn't successful as itpreviously was.
(02:46):
And when you're the marketingmanager for a bar and
restaurants, that was typicallya popular place.
And you can see it start to movein the opposite direction.
It becomes challenging.
And, part of the challenges,were just changes in the
industry, but also, the group ofpeople that typically came out
(03:06):
with me earlier in my career,they were also entering
different stages of their livesas well.
So it's like when you try tohost a big party and nobody
shows up.
but you have to sit there and itout till the end of the party.
the few people that are therelook around at you and wonder
(03:27):
like, why aren't there morepeople here?
So for me that was very humblingand, it was probably the least
enjoyable part of my career thatlast year.
However, one of the biggestmistakes that anybody can make
in their career is.
Holding on too long and notunderstanding when it's time to
move on.
And you know that was the firstthing that made me realize, it's
(03:50):
time for me to move on.
And there's also, a betteropportunity for me to
reinvigorate myself with anotheropportunity.
And that's actually how Ireinvigorate myself with moving
over to PepsiCo beverages on thesales side.
And I went from the high of thebar to the low of the bar.
And then going into PepsiCo andI was very successful in, my
(04:13):
first couple months I had madean impact and the way it
reinvigorated me was it broughtmy confidence up and it made me
realize that I was enough as anindividual contributor.
And it really gave me thatconfidence to believe that I
could do more and I could pushmyself a little bit further,
which also transferred over intoother areas of my life as well.
Riyad Khamis (04:35):
Perfect.
Yeah, I think that as you talkedabout a lot of the stuff, you
take things from yourexperiences and even though you
might be at the point whereyou're like, I think it's time
to move on, you take littleexperiences from everyone and
take to your next career there.
And I've seen that as well as.
Also, so let's hop into, thejourney part of it and some of
the stuff that we wanna chatabout in the podcast.
one of the things that I knowyou are great at, and I've
(04:57):
learned from you as well, iscreating a positive work culture
and creating an environment,that people are excited to be
in.
So, first, let's start withthat.
So how important is a positiveculture and what does a positive
culture mean to you?
Mike Van de Ven (05:12):
so a positive culture is everything
essentially.
one thing I've learned actually,and I'll quote, somebody that's
an external mentor for me.
he said when people jump fromcompany to company, they're
trying to find, grass that'sgreener on the other side, but
ultimately it doesn't matterwhere you go.
(05:34):
Every company is gonna havetheir challenges, different
challenges, but there's alwaysgonna be challenges.
So when you have a strongculture where people listen to
each other, they enjoy workingwith each other.
And they truly believe in thevision for the company.
Then when those challengeshappen, are more likely to band
(05:54):
together and still perform at ahigh level versus exit the
business.
And that's why it's soimportant.
And the culture is one of thetoughest things to build.
it can be, 2, 3, 5, 10 yearcycle to get really truly the
right attitude.
But that makes the bigdifference.
And you want to know.
When different challenges arehappening that you can look to
(06:16):
your left and you can look toyour right and everybody's the
same vision and is gonna haveeach other's backs.
And that's really what generatesthat great culture that leads to
the success that I've seen in mycareer.
Riyad Khamis (06:27):
Yeah, and I've heard stories where people say,
and this is actually associateoptometrists were saying this,
where two clinics that were theexact same, almost like how they
opt.
Rate how they charged hours.
But they preferred the one wherethey go in and they just love
it.
They feel motivated, and morethan money.
That was the motivation there.
It was just that, that positiveculture.
(06:48):
And when building that greatenvironment?
What qualities do we look for inpeople?
and I think this is a big onefor all of us when we're trying
to figure out what people wouldfit in, what wouldn't.
So is there any particularthings you tend to look.
For.
Mike Van de Ven (07:03):
At least from my experience, you usually know
if you're gonna hire somebodywithin the first 10, 15 minutes
of an interview.
And it's how they presentthemselves, their infectious
personality, and especially inthe sales world, that's so
important.
So I call it the X factor.
And that's a skill that you'reborn with.
It can't be
Riyad Khamis (07:19):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (07:19):
just that.
Being able to connect withpeople in general.
So that's always a foundationalpiece that I think helps drive
the culture'cause.
When you're bringing that to thetable internally, people like to
work with you and collaborate,and then when you bring it out
externally, customers wanna workwith you and buy from you.
So it ends up, working twofold,
Riyad Khamis (07:39):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (07:40):
is one of the biggest things I look for.
I love when a new person entersthe business and they're just
asking questions and they wannalearn, and that openness with
the curiosity also leads tobeing coachable.
So they're asking the questionsand they're taking the answers,
the guidance you're giving themEven if they are unsure if it's
gonna work.
They're like, I'm gonna try it.
(08:00):
And the third thing is, thatconfidence and ability to
actually go and try thedifferent things when they're
outta their comfort zone, thosethings make a huge difference.
So when you bring all thosedifferent things together, you
get someone that's reallysuccessful.
And you ask this question, I'lljust give a micro example.
(08:21):
we had a newer rep.
That started with us, justroughly at the start of the
year, the first night we were atdinner, and I can see in my
peripheral that this chair isscooching up beside me, and she
sits down and she says, I lookedat your LinkedIn and it said the
first year you were a rep, yougrew your territory by this
(08:42):
amount.
Can you tell me all the thingsthat
Riyad Khamis (08:44):
Oh wow.
Mike Van de Ven (08:45):
And it was one of the most impressive
Riyad Khamis (08:49):
They asked.
Mike Van de Ven (08:50):
It's like she hunted me down.
was confident enough to go andask those questions and
genuinely just wanted to learn.
It really.
just demonstrates exactly thequalities that you look for
successful people.
And I'm seeing it with, a few ofour new reps right now, they
feel the same way.
And even though they're still inthe learning phase, it's like
(09:11):
you can see the success thatthey're going to have just
because they have that attitude.
It's very rarely that you seesomebody that, carries that
ambition, that curiosity, thatcoachability where they're not
successful.
Riyad Khamis (09:25):
Right.
And I've met so many people thatyou've brought onto the team and
I can kinda attest to howeveryone is.
Great.
we've had this conversationbefore too, is sometimes what's
on paper like resume isn't asimportant as the conversations
that you have with them.
Mike Van de Ven (09:40):
For sure.
Riyad Khamis (09:41):
and I actually had an interesting example too.
Recently.
We were hiring, And the personcame in and said, I looked
things up and I realized that,you're from a small town con
garden.
And he's like, I used to workthere at this, meat shop and I
hadn't been to that meat shopsince I was probably 14 years
old and we used to get thesebeef peppers my brother and I
all the time.
(10:01):
and it kind of sparked thismemory and we started talking
about that.
And it's like little things likethat when people do their
research a little bit and comeup with these anecdotes, that
personal connection becomesreally important as well.
Mike Van de Ven (10:13):
For sure.
It makes a huge difference.
Riyad Khamis (10:15):
So let's hop onto something that I've seen from
you evolve as a leader, andthat's gonna be delegation.
Did delegation impact yourcareer happiness and do you feel
like it's something that helpswith sustainability as well?
Mike Van de Ven (10:27):
Yeah.
delegation in general, I willsay is always gonna be
Riyad Khamis (10:31):
right.
Mike Van de Ven (10:32):
when you're a high performer and there's
different levels of improvingwith it, and there's different
times where you're challengedwith it.
especially working in a smallercompany, there's less people.
So there's a lot that goes onyour plate regardless of what
position you're in.
And part of being able todelegate is taking the time to
teach one of your directreports, a task that maybe
(10:54):
they're not gonna do.
Perfect the first time and thencoaching them on it until it
gets up to that level, that,you're comfortable fully
delegating to in the future.
But that takes time and there'sfast timelines and things like
that.
So you really have to take thattime as a leader to just
understand, the sweat equitythat you're putting up, up front
(11:14):
to make somebody better that'son your team, but also allow you
to delegate further.
So when I think about mytimeline.
Coming in as a high performingrep into a leadership position
for the first time, like was
Riyad Khamis (11:27):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (11:28):
I had my high expectation, and the first thing
that you're gonna realize iswhen you see behind the curtain.
Not everybody does everythingthe same way as
Riyad Khamis (11:36):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (11:36):
And there's you a certain bar that you have.
Not everybody reaches that bar.
People reach the bar indifferent ways, but ultimately
you have a team that you have tobring to a working level of
success.
So there's a couple keymilestones for me that I had.
within my first year we did astop start continue.
So essentially, it's HR led.
(11:57):
My team would all come togetherin a room and they get to say
what I should start doing, stopdoing and continue doing.
That is very transparent
Riyad Khamis (12:06):
Right
Mike Van de Ven (12:07):
not involved
Riyad Khamis (12:07):
direct.
Mike Van de Ven (12:08):
like that, but like it was very humbling that
was like the first milestonethat helped me start to improve
on that front.
And then the external, factorthat forced me into being a
better delegator was actuallyCOVID.
So, during COVID.
weren't able to go out with repsin the field, like reps weren't
(12:29):
even allowed to go in the fieldfor a while, You couldn't be
there, you couldn't be in thetrenches, you couldn't be
rolling up your sleeves andtrying to do everything.
So it actually took mydelegation skills to a different
level.
And even today, I have to stopmyself and realize that can't do
everything
Riyad Khamis (12:47):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (12:48):
I can't do everything, and I have very
capable people around me.
So it's stopping yourself,trusting your team, and then.
there's opportunities to trainand develop, so that delegation
becomes more organic justbecause of the people around you
and their capabilities.
Riyad Khamis (13:04):
That's really interesting so I'm assuming like
when the stop doing, there wassome constructive criticism I
think a lot of people don't likehearing that stuff about
themselves, but it's such animportant thing to grow as a
leader.
How did you handle that?
Mike Van de Ven (13:17):
Yeah, so it's funny, so I've developed some
internal leadership trainingthat I would do for a my
management team or even, repsthat are interested in getting
to management eventually.
And one of the things I show isthe.
All of the results from my firstyear as a manager and it looks
like I'm just pumping my owntires, it's great growth rates,
(13:40):
new program design, all thesedifferent things.
And then I show the stop, start,continue and what was said by
the team.
And you can have these greatresults, but that doesn't
necessarily make you a goodleader.
It makes you a high
Riyad Khamis (13:54):
right.
Mike Van de Ven (13:55):
when I got that, the results from the stop,
sir, continue.
It was the toughest, I'd say,week or two of my career to be
humbled that way.
But, I wake up every day, itreflected, the
Riyad Khamis (14:09):
Right.
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (14:10):
and I can work to be
Riyad Khamis (14:12):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (14:13):
And even growing up playing sports, it
was always the same thing, if acoach gave me hard coaching, I
might be a little
Riyad Khamis (14:22):
Right.
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (14:23):
but after two minutes.
I come back and I alwaysimplemented the
Riyad Khamis (14:27):
Right,
Mike Van de Ven (14:28):
if you think that you know everything and you
think that you're perfect at anylevel of your career, then you
need a stop
Riyad Khamis (14:35):
right.
Mike Van de Ven (14:35):
to
Riyad Khamis (14:35):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (14:36):
you're not so that it actually just opened up
my thinking in general.
And I think it's also reallyhelp me develop leaders in our
business, that are first time,people managers, because I'm
able to show them.
Here's the mistakes I made as afirst time manager.
are your biggest watch outs, andshare my experience.
(14:58):
And I feel I've taken that firsttime leader in our business who
might have started out, fiveoutta 10 in leadership, and now
they're starting out seven outta10, and I say seven outta 10.
'cause leadership, differentthings come up every single day
that you just can't train on,right?
It's just like you have to haveexperience going through all the
(15:19):
different things.
If I can at least start them atseven outta 10, and then they
work themselves up to thateight, nine, and I don't think
anyone ever reaches a
Riyad Khamis (15:27):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (15:28):
leadership
Riyad Khamis (15:28):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (15:29):
but they set up for the most success.
So what I will say in summary isit actually changed my whole
thought process on leadershipand it's really benefited future
leaders that I've been able toevolve within
Riyad Khamis (15:41):
Okay.
And I think that's the biggrowth mindset.
And that's how we grow, right?
in terms of, some challengesthat you've encountered at work,
how did you and your team feellike you overcame them without
getting too overwhelmed andfeeling like this is too much?
Mike Van de Ven (15:57):
you're seeing people.
Feel the burnout because the jobis already
Riyad Khamis (16:03):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (16:03):
it's, it's not for the
Riyad Khamis (16:05):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (16:06):
you that way.
And I have a ton of respect foreverything that our team does.
But then when you add theseother factors on top of it,
people can burn out.
So the biggest thing is one,just making sure that you're
checking in on people.
So you can call somebody just tocheck in on them.
just see how they're doing.
Hey, are you good?
What does your schedule looklike?
What can we take off your plate?
(16:27):
if you feel like somebody'soverwhelmed, Hey, that deadline
that's on Thursday, would it bebetter if you hand it in on
Riyad Khamis (16:33):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (16:33):
you a little extra time.
So it's like having that EQ to
Riyad Khamis (16:36):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (16:37):
what's going on with everybody, professionally
and they'll share personally howthey're doing as well.
It allows you to manage to theperson, which is helpful.
and then the other thing within,managing burnout is.
Just don't take for granted whatpeople are
Riyad Khamis (16:54):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (16:56):
really make sure that you're recognizing
them because recognizing peoplegives them that extra rocket
fuel
Riyad Khamis (17:02):
Yes.
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (17:04):
Find that person that's in the pocket
where they're doing good work,but you can tell that like
they're.
working above capacity and justsay, Hey, I noticed that you've
been doing these things latelyand I just wanna let you know
that.
Like I see you and I appreciateit,
Riyad Khamis (17:21):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (17:21):
and just leave it.
And it's so funny the reactionthat you get from
Riyad Khamis (17:24):
Okay.
Mike Van de Ven (17:25):
because it's is that it?
like you don't
Riyad Khamis (17:29):
What else?
Mike Van de Ven (17:29):
for it.
It's no, I just wanna let youknow.
I see it and it's such a little
Riyad Khamis (17:32):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (17:34):
that helps people get through the burnout.
And then the last thing that's,I'll say from my personal
experiences.
you say I'm the most motivated,disciplined person and that's, I
appreciate, but it can also be afault because the expectations I
set for
Riyad Khamis (17:49):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (17:49):
I'm training for a
Riyad Khamis (17:50):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (17:51):
we had a product launch last year.
I'm training different new teammembers.
There's always lots going on,and when you have a high
standard for everything.
You always want to, do thecliche, I'm gonna give 110%,
what I've realized is the timeswhere I felt burnt out in my
career when I only have 60% leftin the
Riyad Khamis (18:12):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (18:13):
But I'm trying to give 110%.
Riyad Khamis (18:16):
Right on top of that.
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (18:18):
So the biggest thing that I want to communicate
to, not just my team, butanybody that's going through
burnout, is if you have 60% leftin the tank and you're giving a
hundred percent of that 60%,that is enough.
And you need to make sure thatyou take care of yourself
because.
(18:39):
If you're trying to do what youknow I've done in the past, it
will lead to that burnout andit's gonna vary, right?
Maybe on a Monday you're at ahundred percent.
on a Thursday a couple thingshave
Riyad Khamis (18:49):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (18:50):
professionally or personally, and you're at
60%.
Just make sure you go out andgive a hundred percent of
Riyad Khamis (18:54):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (18:55):
and that's already gonna be light years
ahead of most people in thisworld.
And it's like just trying tounderstand what that looks like
and also having the EQ as aleader to sense and understand.
What different people are goingthrough with their different
Riyad Khamis (19:07):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (19:08):
so key to managing
Riyad Khamis (19:09):
Yeah, that's a really good answer.
honestly, I picked up some gemsfrom that one is there any tips
with reconnecting with the whyor going back to that area?
Anything else that you can thinkof on that part?
Mike Van de Ven (19:19):
I'll give you two examples here.
So making sure.
That you're reconnectingeverybody to a common goal and
showing them that what we'redoing has purpose.
If people are working reallyhard and they can't see the end
game or the cliche light at theend of the tunnel, then it's
tough.
So helping people.
See three months, six months, 12
Riyad Khamis (19:40):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (19:41):
and what success could look like and how
what we're doing today iscontributing to it is actually
one of the biggest strengths ofa good leader, in my
Riyad Khamis (19:50):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (19:50):
Now, from a just.
Even like more of a functionalstandpoint.
So one thing that I always tryto do every year is I try to
take a couple different coursesto improve myself professionally
and personally.
Last year, one of the courseswas through Duke.
Riyad Khamis (20:04):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (20:05):
And it was leading, a high performing team
through neuroscience, it talksabout managing burnout with your
team.
And some of the different thingsthat I've adopted with my direct
leadership team is I have themblock their calendars until
10:00 AM every single day.
Riyad Khamis (20:23):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (20:24):
So our rule is they can get their deep work
done and we're not bookingMicrosoft teams meetings or
we're not booking meetings.
So everybody has that eight 30to 10:00 AM to really.
Focus on their deep work whenthey're at max capacity.
And it's insane to see thesuccess and additional
Riyad Khamis (20:42):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (20:43):
that people are able to provide from that and
the positive feedback.
So that really helps withburnout because if you have
meetings gate to gate,
Riyad Khamis (20:50):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (20:51):
And then all of a sudden you get off all your
meetings and you're like, oh, Ihave to do my real job.
Riyad Khamis (20:55):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (20:55):
with everything out, and then it ends up in, in
burnout.
So I thought that's been reallyeffective.
And then the other thing that Itook from this course was, most
people burnouts around theafternoon.
What studies show is somebodygoes for a walk.
for 30 minutes, just disengageand block for 30 minutes.
(21:16):
It actually refuels their brainwith total creativity, which is
going to bring them back to bemore effective again for, the
remaining hours of the day sothat's something else that I've
implemented with my team
Riyad Khamis (21:29):
Interesting cue to everyone getting doodling pads
and pencils and getting readyfor pencil chaos.
Sometimes when you have thosedinners that you guys throw on,
or if you actually go to a CEevent and you learn and all of a
sudden you're like, oh, I'mtaking away dates of work.
But it reinvigorates you andit's falling back in love with
that why of like, Hey, this iswhy I entered this profession in
(21:50):
the first place.
This is what I can do and now Ican take this to the next level.
And it's something I've realizedmore and more as well let's now
chat about something I think youare great at, in terms of
routine and structure, how haveyou implemented that, or how has
that helped you maintain yourcareer as a high performer,
Mike Van de Ven (22:09):
so routine and structure is everything.
If you look at different topperformers that I've worked with
over the years.
Some people are veryentrepreneurial and great with
relationship, They're like, I'ma sales rep, that's why I'm
Riyad Khamis (22:24):
Right.
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (22:25):
kind of thing.
And then there's some peoplethat are.
It's incredible and everyone'sasking what's your secret sauce?
And it's like I have a plan.
I know where I'm going everyweek.
I know what I want to talkabout.
I'm preparing for what they'repotentially gonna say.
And you see that organization inpreparation and they're so
successful just from beingorganized and being able to
(22:46):
execute their priorities thatare in front of them.
And being burnt out and saying,I need to take time off you
really always have to take astep back and say.
Do I actually have a plan?
And there's so many differentthings that you can do, to help
manage that.
there's a lot of the quick wintasks that like, they
Riyad Khamis (23:04):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (23:05):
in your head, but once you write'em down, you
just knock'em off and all of asudden things are more
manageable.
When you're overwhelmed, if youactually just say it out loud
and you hear it for yourself,it's show that you're actually
gonna listen and say you knowwhat?
That sounds a lot less worsethan it
Riyad Khamis (23:22):
Okay.
Mike Van de Ven (23:23):
It's only gonna take me 20 minutes to do that
expense report.
It's not gonna be an hour.
I need to just get outta my ownway and do it.
And you knock it off your list.
So there's little things likethat you can coach people onto
understand the differencebetween burnout and just making
sure that you're creating betterinfrastructure for yourself.
Riyad Khamis (23:40):
Yeah, and I think the routine part of it really,
really important and lists.
I'm getting better at writinglists.
my wife's huge on writing listsand she tells me crossing things
off a list is the mostsatisfying feeling, even if
you've written your own list andon a weekend knock'em off.
It's very satisfying, right?
Just no matter how small it islet's talk a little bit about
(24:01):
success early in your career.
Is there something that youbelieved early in your career,
what success looked like?
And has that changed, like thedefinition of success?
Mike Van de Ven (24:11):
Yeah, I would say that, your success is
measured exclusively by yournumbers.
Riyad Khamis (24:19):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (24:20):
Now that's always gonna be a portion of it
in sales.
But you ask me what I'm the mostproud of in my career when I
first started, like even withBosch and Long, I'd probably
tell you territory grow,innovation that I was able to
contribute to, things like that.
But then you ask me now, and thething I'm the most proud of is
(24:42):
not just our culture, That I'vebeen able to build with
everybody and taking people notjust through their professional
journeys of, a rep to first timeleadership or a head office
position, but also being arounda long enough with the team to
actually grow up with'em in away.
See the personal milestones aswell of, having their first
(25:04):
child, getting
Riyad Khamis (25:05):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (25:06):
different things like that.
And one of the things that,people say is you're gonna leave
a business one day and when youleave, you.
Yeah, gonna forget you in amonth
Riyad Khamis (25:17):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (25:18):
part of that is true.
life always goes on no matterhow important you think you are,
but it is correct that likepeople won't remember the
numbers, they'll remember howyou treated
Riyad Khamis (25:27):
Yes, yes.
Mike Van de Ven (25:28):
So when you think about that impact that you
can have on peopleprofessionally and personally,
it's so great.
And when you have a good cultureand you're able to connect with.
Direct reports, indirectreports, different things like
that.
And I've been fortunate enoughthat I've been able to hire 60%
of the people in our businessunit just with my various
positions here.
It's like you laugh with peopleon a personal level when
(25:52):
something funny
Riyad Khamis (25:53):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (25:55):
you cry with them when you know a family
member is
Riyad Khamis (25:58):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (25:58):
and you celebrate with them, all their
successes and those differentthings.
Are really what I would
Riyad Khamis (26:06):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (26:07):
success as I am now, in, year eight of
leadership and, my 10th yearwithin Bosch and law.
And that is, truly a fundamentaldifference in my thinking from
day one versus
Riyad Khamis (26:20):
Yeah.
And, you can always get betternumbers, chase more territories.
See more patients, but in theend, what are you gonna remember
is the relationships and, andthose milestones.
That's a great answer.
So one thing that I know youlove that I've tried but I
haven't been able tosuccessfully do is running.
I'm always watching from afarand just, impressed about how
(26:40):
much you've accomplished so interms of running, I think you
love it.
Or if you, if you don't, you canalways tell me that as well, but
I know there's lessons fromrunning to career professional,
personal life.
What are some overlaps there?
Mike Van de Ven (26:54):
And this is a great question.
So recently I came back from abig run.
Riyad Khamis (27:00):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (27:00):
And, you come back from a big run and your
endorphins are high, you'refeeling good.
And I actually, for whateverreason, I pulled up my laptop
and I wrote a LinkedIn
Riyad Khamis (27:09):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (27:09):
And the reason I wanted to share it was when I
run, I do it for multiplereasons.
Fitness is always, it has to besomewhere, in your goals and
objectives when you're going outthere and pounding pavement.
also just for like mentalclarity, I find, I move a
(27:30):
hundred miles per hour all thetime, but when I'm running, I am
in just like a complete state offocus Zen.
And my most creative thinkingand reflection happens when I'm
running, so that's why I enjoyit so much.
But one of the things that I seewith a lot of people is.
(27:54):
They'll be like, ah, I see thatyou're running a lot.
I want to get into running.
Will you help me with a plan?
I give them a little bit of aplan and two weeks later I'm
like, how's everything going?
Ah, I did it for a week and ahalf and you know what?
My shins were hurting me.
Or it was just like so hard toget out there.
And of the biggest lessons, totake away from that is running
(28:17):
the first three weeks to a monthare terrible.
Riyad Khamis (28:21):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (28:22):
It's tough.
Your body's getting used to thewear and tear it's a grind to
get out there.
But then once you get past thatpoint, you start to get to, the
distances, the comfort, theadaptation where you start to
get runners high, you start toget that clarity, the maximizing
your endorphins.
(28:42):
it always disappoints me that,some people don't get over that
hump.
Just with anything with life,you have to embrace the sweat
equity
Riyad Khamis (28:49):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (28:50):
that's required knowing that like you're gonna
get to a better spot.
The next thing people say to meis, I see you're currently
training for a marathon.
I think I'm gonna try the samething.
And then they don't come up witha plan and they just go out
there.
And then same thing I ask abouttheir progress.
I ran 16 kilometers in my firsttwo weeks and then I haven't
(29:11):
really run since you have towrite down what your goal is.
You have to follow the plan, orelse you sacrifice your success.
And because there's noaccountability.
So those are two pretty corethings.
If everything in life was easy.
Riyad Khamis (29:26):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (29:27):
everybody would
Riyad Khamis (29:28):
Right.
Doing it
Mike Van de Ven (29:29):
rocket scientists.
You know what I mean?
So you have to go and you haveto put in that sweat
Riyad Khamis (29:34):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (29:34):
to get to the better
Riyad Khamis (29:36):
One, I think there's a lot of parallels
between that and your career andkind of get into setting goals
and doing it.
And two, it's just findingsomething where you can just
switch your brain off.
I was talking to a goalie coachwho had coached in, the NHL, one
thing that I ask is.
What do you enjoy doing?
Like outside of goalie?
And he's like, sometimes it'snice to just have an escape and
(29:56):
especially as goalies wheneverything's kind of pressure
cooking at that age.
He's like, there's a goalie thatsays I just like playing the
piano, or I just like doingsomething unconventional even
golfing, he said is a great oneand it's just trying to get away
and finding your focus
Mike Van de Ven (30:11):
I think that's a great point.
If I'm sensing burnout withsomebody, I'll call them and
I'll say, Hey, you like to do
Riyad Khamis (30:18):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (30:18):
this person likes to go to the gym.
This person likes to go for awalk.
This person likes to play thepiano.
Let's take time make sure thatyou're doing that before you
start your day.
Riyad Khamis (30:28):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (30:29):
things will wait.
Even if you gotta take, sometime in the early morning when
you're on the clock, just get itdone.
Riyad Khamis (30:34):
Mm.
Mike Van de Ven (30:35):
So that's also a good thing to recognize as a
leader.
what are those things thatperson loves to do?
And when you sense burnout, whenyou sense that there's
challenges that are coming upprofessionally or personally for
them that's, creating a heavierworkload just make sure that you
reinforce for them to take thattime while they're getting
themselves back on track.
(30:55):
And it's something that, notonly is effective, but it's so
appreciated and builds into apositive culture.
Riyad Khamis (31:01):
I think that you've been pretty good at is
sticking to things.
when things are challenging,like in the morning where you
don't wanna get up, or let's saythere's a work thing and you're
like, Ugh, now I got so much onmy plate.
How do you get through thosedays?
Mike Van de Ven (31:14):
There's two things that typically go through
my mind.
So Kobe Bryant was known forjust just being so
Riyad Khamis (31:20):
Mamba mentality.
Mike Van de Ven (31:21):
working performer, right?
Even though he was obviously sotalented as well.
And I guess, one year he hadcreated this really intense
summer training program and heis being interviewed about it
and they're like, how do you getyourself out to do it?
And he said, when I created thattraining program, I signed a
contract with myself that I wasgonna go and do this.
So every time that my brain istelling me.
(31:43):
you can't do this, you're tired,everything like that.
I say, no, like I signed a
Riyad Khamis (31:47):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (31:48):
So that's a big thing for me.
And that's almost like writingdown the
Riyad Khamis (31:50):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (31:52):
I'm planning to run a full marathon in October,
and I've run the distancebefore, but I have never done it
in a race.
And I'm not gonna lie, I'm
Riyad Khamis (32:00):
Right.
Mike Van de Ven (32:01):
but I've told people now and I've written down
the goal and I have a plan andI'm like, you know what?
I signed that contract withmyself, so I'm gonna get up and
do it.
And then the other thing, itactually plays back into that,
giving a hundred percent, evenif there's 60% left in the tank,
when you.
Get up early and you go to thegym sometimes, you're like, I do
not feel like being here
Riyad Khamis (32:23):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (32:23):
your first set of whatever you're lifting.
You're like, that was a lottougher than it was just last
week.
just being there and showing upis far greater than not going at
all.
When you're feeling like youdon't want to get there, just
bringing at least the bestversion that you can to just
show up.
And that's going to beat themajority of people, in the
Riyad Khamis (32:46):
Yes, yes.
Mike Van de Ven (32:47):
to goal setting and
Riyad Khamis (32:48):
Yeah, showing up huge.
And, and I think that's it.
Okay.
Let's, we're gonna end on a moreof a retrospective question.
If your younger self could seeyou now, what would surprise the
most about your current career?
Mike Van de Ven (33:00):
I appreciate and, always am humbled by the
respect I get for my success ata young age, and also, my
leadership and
Riyad Khamis (33:09):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (33:11):
if you ask that, high school Mike, or even
university Mike.
If he was gonna be doing thisposition, he'd probably say I
don't know.
Riyad Khamis (33:18):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (33:19):
it's, different times of your life.
And I always feel for, kidsgoing outta high school and
university, you just have todecide what you wanna do so
Riyad Khamis (33:27):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (33:27):
you're not necessarily mature enough.
So I'd say the biggest thing isI would look at myself today and
be like, wow, you are enough.
Riyad Khamis (33:34):
Yes.
Mike Van de Ven (33:35):
You're more than enough.
like you should have neverdoubted yourself.
Never let people tell you that,that there's one path to
Riyad Khamis (33:43):
Hmm.
Mike Van de Ven (33:44):
There's many paths, and it could be a zigzag,
it could be a loop backsometimes, but ultimately, if
you get to where you want to getto, it doesn't matter how you
did.
And actually, sometimes thescenic route
Riyad Khamis (33:57):
Yeah.
Mike Van de Ven (33:58):
provides you with more experience along the
way.
And, the last thing would bejust like being proud knowing
that I've been a good leader to.
Be the guy that opens the doorfor people and giving people the
chance to show their worth andshow what they bring to the
table
Riyad Khamis (34:15):
You've accomplished so much so you've
gotten to probably a lot ofwhere you envisioned yourself
being.
But even if people haven't, orif, as you said, there's.
zigzags and you learn thingsalong the way.
you might be in this stage whereyou're still working towards
that and that's okay as well.
but being just positive aboutall the stuff you have learned
and how you've brought to thetable and starting those career
baby.
(34:35):
Steps to maybe where you want toget to.
Those are some great tips thatyou've thrown in there as well.
I think a lot of people willlearn a lot and hopefully, I
know I feel very motivated to goat next week, but I think a lot
of people will feel motivated aswell.
So, We really appreciate, youbeing on and sharing a really
valuable insight.
I think that a lot of gems hereand, I always enjoy really
(34:56):
talking to you, so it's great
Mike Van de Ven (34:58):
I really appreciate you having me
Riyad Khamis (34:59):
Yeah, for sure.
there's so much more that Iwanted to pick at your brain,
but I don't want to go on forthree or four hours.
I know we probably could.
love to have this conversationagain and I think every year
something else comes up and welearn more and more.
so love to have you again aswell.
and thanks for everyone forlistening to 20 Happy Careers
with Doctors Fred and Riyad.
if you've found this helpful,please subscribe, share, or
(35:20):
leave a comment.
join us next time as we rethinksuccess and what it means to
love your work.
And remember, we aren't justchasing workplace happiness.
We're trying to create it stepby step
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