March 7, 2025 • 33 mins
Daggie Lacey's life reads like a Hollywood script, yet her remarkable journey from refugee to tech pioneer is 100% real. In this captivating conversation, Daggie shares how fleeing Latvia as a one-year-old set her on an unexpected path toward breaking unimaginable barriers in the technology industry.
With disarming candor, she reveals how she became the first female programmer at Burroughs Corporation based on a $25 monthly salary difference—a decision that led to a series of glass-ceiling-shattering achievements. She recalls the moment when her boss confessed they'd never hired a female programmer before, explaining the battery of special tests she had to pass simply because of her gender.
The stories flow like chapters in an adventure novel: being blocked from presenting in Japan because "women cannot address business meetings" only to have executives later fly to meet her; founding her own technology company in 1991 that employed remote workers before the World Wide Web existed; and her unforgettable boardroom showdown with a notoriously difficult chairman where her boldness carried the day.
Most compelling is Daggie's definition of boldness itself—speaking out for your cause, refusing to back down when challenged, and maintaining unwavering belief in your solution. At 81, still running her international technology company, she delivers a powerful message for women considering careers in tech: "Don't be afraid. You can do anything you want if you commit yourself to it."
What truly makes Daggie's story shine is hearing how her leadership transformed careers. After publishing her book "The Wall Falls, a Woman Rises," former employees reached out to share how working with her 35 years ago changed their lives—a testament to the lasting impact of authentic, bold leadership.
Ready for a dose of inspiration and practical wisdom from a true pioneer? This episode delivers exactly that. Share your thoughts after listening—we'd love to hear which part of Daggie's journey resonates most with you.
Resources:
- Daggie's website
- The Wall Falls, a Woman Rises, a Memoir: How a U.S. Tech Entrepreneur Broke the Glass Ceiling and Helped Modernize Latvia
Learn more about AnitaB.org
When you subscribe to the podcast, you are supporting our work's mission, allowing us to continue highlighting successful women in a variety of careers to inspire others helping pay our wonderful editor, Chris, and helping me in paying our hosting expenses. 🎉
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary Killelea (00:01):
Hi there, my name is Mary Kiloalea.
Welcome to the To Be Bolderpodcast providing career
insights for the next generationof women in business and tech.
To Be Bolder was created out ofmy love for technology and
marketing, my desire to bringtogether like-minded women and
my hope to be a great role modeland source of inspiration for
my two girls and other youngwomen like you, encouraging you
(00:22):
guys to show up and to be bolderand to know that anything you
guys dream of it's totallypossible.
So sit back, relax and enjoythe conversation.
Hi there and welcome to theshow.
Today we are so lucky to bejoined by an extraordinary woman
who has been a pioneer in somany ways Daggie Lacey.
(00:43):
Daggie is what she goes by,embodies resilience and bold
leadership, from being a refugeeto shattering glass ceilings as
the first woman programmer atthe Burroughs Corporation and
later its first female vicepresident in such a
male-dominated tech world of the1980s.
When the Berlin Wall fell, shewas invited back to her homeland
(01:05):
as the first official Westernvisitor, where she helped
modernize Lativia's technologyinfrastructure, playing a
crucial role in the country'sacceptance into NATO and the EU.
At 81, and I'm telling you shelooks 31, dagy continues to run
the international technologycompany she founded back in 1991
(01:27):
.
Remarkably, one of the first toemploy remote workers before
the World Wide Web even existed,which okay.
The fact that she did thatmakes me love her even more.
I'm dedicated to remote workforever.
Daggie, it is such an honor tospeak with you.
Thank you for being here.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (01:44):
Thank you so much, Mary, for having me
.
Mary Killelea (01:47):
You're welcome, Okay, so let's start by having
you tell us in your words, froma high level kind of, what was
your career journey.
And I know that's probably animpossible question, but let's
try.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (02:01):
I'll start Well.
First of all, the country isLatvia, and I don't know if
people know where it is, butit's south of the Scandinavian
countries, so it's right acrossthe Baltic Sea from Sweden and
from Norway and Finland.
Okay, so that's where thecountry Latvia is, and it was an
(02:24):
independent country since 1918.
And during World War Two thecommunists took it over.
I was born in Latvia, but wefled.
When I was a year old, dad, whowas a public prosecutor at the
(02:49):
time, knew he was on the wantedlist, and by that what I mean is
, um, what the communistsbasically did when they inva,
invaded all the baltic.
The other three countries isestonia, latvia is the middle,
and lithuania, and of course youknow.
Then you got poland and andyou've got germ Germany and
France, all that going west.
But what they did is they would, in the middle of the night,
(03:11):
come in and they would knock onthe doors and give the family
half an hour to pack whateverthey could carry and then put
them on trains where they putmen in one boxcar, women in
another and kids in another.
So of course it was a horribleexperience and many died on the
way and so forth.
So my dad didn't want toexperience that, and so they
(03:35):
held out in Latvia as long asthey could.
And when he came back he toldmy mom look, we got to get out
of here.
There's a last ship going toGermany from Latvia that will
take refugees.
So we boarded that ship and weended up in Germany in a town
called Würzburg, germany, and wewere vetted there.
(03:58):
We were lucky to be in theAmerican zone.
There was a British zone,american zone and a Russian zone
.
So in the American zone we werethere about five years, vetted,
and finally we were given threechoices to go To immigrate to
Australia, to go to Californiaor to Indiana.
(04:24):
And my mom said she looked atthe map and she thought
Australia is way too far,california could fall off into
the ocean and Indiana was thecenter of the United States.
So they chose Indiana andthat's how it all started.
So we got to Indiana.
Our sponsor that's anotherpoint.
(04:44):
So we got to Indiana Oursponsor that's another point.
You had to have a sponsor inorder to get out and that
sponsor had to give you aguarantee of a job.
So they guaranteed my dademployment and it was a Lutheran
church that sponsored us inIndianapolis.
(05:05):
And so we arrived inIndianapolis and I didn't really
know any English.
So I had interestingexperiences at the Indianapolis
public school system.
In the very beginning I was alittle shocked.
You know, I had these longpigtail break with bows in them
and none of the other kids didhave that.
And I remember being sodifferent and not knowing
(05:27):
English.
The kids would stare at me withbig eyes.
The teacher was writing red,blue, green.
So that was the beginning.
But I picked up English veryquickly.
They gave me, I think, a thirdgrade child who spent time with
me and it just seemed just likethat.
(05:48):
I understood the teacher andeverything was good.
So, yeah, so I went through theIndianapolis school system.
I went to Arsenal Technical HighSchool and I went to Butler
University where I graduatedwith mathematics and chemistry.
I worked my way all the waythrough.
I would help my parents, Iworked evenings at department
(06:09):
stores and so forth in order tohelp them, because not that they
asked me, but I saw they neededit.
So but everything went fine, Igraduated and then in the
meantime, my husband, andres andI, who was also a Latvian, we
got engaged.
He went to Purdue University,which is another school in
(06:29):
Indiana, and he had accepted ajob on the East Coast.
But we agreed why don't I get ajob in Indianapolis, just for a
year to save some money?
So that's what we agreed andthat's what I did.
So upon graduation I asked mymath professor I said well, what
do you recommend?
Because I really didn't want touse chemistry, because I hated
(06:51):
lab work, didn't like it at all.
An insurance company wherethey're looking for actuary type
work, or there's an up andcoming thing now called
programming.
And he said for example, hereat Indianapolis we have IBM and
(07:12):
Burroughs.
So that's what I did.
I applied to both insurancecompany and to Burroughs and the
interesting thing in terms ofhow I selected my career was $25
a month.
I knew nothing aboutprogramming because at Butler I
(07:36):
took theoretical math and Ihadn't really.
I'd seen a computer but didn'tknow much about it.
So I chose because of $25 amonth.
I chose my career as aprogrammer and that's how it all
started.
But I didn't realize I was thefirst female programmer until
(07:58):
much later my boss apologizedfor me and he said I really have
to apologize for the barrage oftests that we gave you, because
you see, he said, the companyBurroughs never had any
programmers.
They're women.
So he said, we called theheadquarters here in Detroit to
(08:19):
check is it okay to hire a girl?
And they said, well, there's norules against it, just give her
these tests.
So that's how it started.
So that's how.
But then they told me I was thefirst female programmer.
But uh, yeah, so that's how itstarted.
In indianapolis they thentransferred me to uh
(08:39):
headquarters here in michigan touse my math skills.
I developed a mathematicaloptimization program.
That's another story.
That's actually the first timeI realized the difference
between women and guys inbusiness.
But I could tell an hour laterno doubt, let's hear it now.
Mary Killelea (09:00):
I think that's great hear it now.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (09:09):
I think that the story was this I had
developed this optimizationprogram that basically oil
companies really needed.
And in those days, you see, thecomputers were, you know, big a
room filled with equipment.
There was a separate box formag tape units and there was a
box for your disk files, therewas a printer box and there was
(09:32):
a central processor andeverything was connected
underneath these raised floorsand everything had to be air
conditioned.
So it was, and these bigcomputer systems, any programs
that worked on these computersystems, at least at Burroughs,
were free of charge.
So many times, because of thesoftware, the programs, the
(09:56):
client would buy the big system.
So in my case I finished myprogram optimization, and my
boss calls me and said hey,daggy, how would you like to
present it in Japan?
And I said, what Japan?
He said yeah, mitsubishi oilhas this need for figuring out
(10:18):
the cheapest ingredients.
And see what this math programthing does.
It solves mathematicalequations over and, over and
over again until you get thecheapest price.
So you get the ingredients thatmeet the.
So that was the essence of it.
So I said great, and I calledmy husband.
He had since then joined thetire industry.
(10:39):
I said, guess what?
I got to go to Japan.
And he said, well, okay, great.
So we got a passport.
And I got to go to Japan.
And he said, well, okay, great.
So we got a passport and Ireally was ready to go.
Boss calls me in.
He was red as a beet and I knewthere was something.
He said Daggy, I hate to tellyou, but they found out you're a
woman and in Japan women cannotaddress a business meeting.
(11:03):
So basically I was reallydisappointed.
See, my name is reallyD-A-G-N-I-J-A.
They couldn't tell initially ifit was a guy or a girl, so,
anyway, so I was disappointed.
But then the most interestingthing was, a couple of weeks
(11:24):
later I lost Doug Wayne Nelsoncalls me and he was smiling and
I knew it was something good.
He said guess what you won?
And I looked at him.
He said, yes, the Mitsubishioil.
They're going to come to theGetty Estate.
John was a JP Getty Estate inCalifornia to meet you.
(11:44):
So and I've arranged the use ofthe company plane.
So so, long story short, we,the sales guy and I were the
only two on this private jetgoing morning to Detroit, to Los
Angeles area, to the Gettyestate, and, and when I got
there, these two Japanesegentlemen rushed up to me and
(12:07):
they were bowing like this andthey gave me each gave me a box,
a gift wrap box, and on theplane back I opened it and it
was two beautiful sets of pearls.
It was just one.
So I forgave them, basicallybecause I'd never been in a
private jet.
But that was my.
That's when I first realizedreally the women guy issue,
(12:31):
because at that time, at thattime, uh, I didn't really think
about it that way.
I was just doing my job.
And then, and then, but atBurroughs, um, I continued to be
promoted, but it wasmerit-based.
I became the manager of mathprogramming and then I became
(12:51):
manager of scientificprogramming and then I became
manager of commercial businesssystems this is all software
development stuff.
And then finally, I rememberthe vice president of our whole
area called me in.
He said Daggy, we're setting upthings by line of business and
(13:11):
we would like to open a branchfor schools in the state of
Michigan.
How would you like to staff itand be branch manager?
And of course, at that point Ididn't know what to do.
I before I always hatedsalespeople.
I mean, I just didn't likesalespeople and I had no
background in sales and so Italked to my husband and he said
(13:34):
look, hey, if you don't like it, you can always quit.
So because we always had thisdeal that both of us were
professionals and we wouldalways do what's best for the
company, do the job and not playpolitics that's how we started.
Anyway, I took the job and Iloved it.
I loved the sales.
(13:56):
I mean it was great.
I learned how to write salescontracts, how to install
computers and anyway.
So there's a lot of fun.
And after that then I waspromoted to industry marketing
and then vice president.
Actually, I have an interestingstory.
Yes, were you talking aboutbold?
Mary Killelea (14:16):
Yes, please share your bold story.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (14:19):
My bold story was this See, my job as
vice president of the educationline of business was to increase
the number of users in schoolsand universities.
Okay, and in those days westill remember, we had these
bigger computers, so you neededa program to attract them, like
(14:39):
for schools.
We needed, particularly in theUS, I forgot now it was like
64,000 or 36 opportunities andin this public school system you
have grade reporting, you haveclassroom scheduling, you have
student records, you havepayroll personnel, and so I knew
(15:04):
I needed something and my teamand I decided well, why don't we
look around and see whatschools use?
I mean, that time it was Unisysequipment.
And we did, and we found asoftware company.
But Unisys had never purchasedany software company.
They had their own teams.
(15:25):
But I knew it would takeforever to start building a team
and and I probably wouldn't getthe right funding anyway.
So what I did?
I presented to, uh, to.
I presented a proposal ofpurchasing it and you know the
interesting thing is, when Ipresented it, I presented it to
(15:46):
the sales district managers andthe vice president.
They all loved it and they saidhey, that's great, because I
don't want to be bothered withany programming support, because
this company that would supportthe software and all I have to
worry is about the boxes, thehardware.
So they all loved it.
And so then the funny thing isthey.
(16:07):
But you see, this was arisk-taking thing and everyone
was playing politics, no one youknow, uh.
So, but I really believed in it.
I had created a nice businessplan.
So, uh, then finally they saidthey, their group, said to my
(16:27):
boss, who was then an executivevice president well, why don't
you, bill, go ahead and presentit to the chairman?
And the next thing I know, billcalls me and says I got an
appointment two days later atthe chairman's office and I said
, great, what do you need foryour presentation?
He said, no, you, you present,I will listen, you see it's, it
(16:52):
would be me taking the risk.
And and then, okay, so then, um, so then I said, well, okay,
and I remember arriving thatmorning and I was kind of
nervous about the presentationbecause I'd heard this chairman
was really rude and rough.
So anyway, the time came and Iwent up to the executive office
(17:14):
and my boss was there, and itwas me.
My boss and I had, in thosedays he had a projector I don't
remember a projector with cells.
That's how we madepresentations.
Okay, so I had my first cell upwhich said commitment to
education and income.
As the chairman, what do youmean?
(17:35):
Commitment, I have you have toconvince me.
And you know he was so rude andyou know what I did.
I said so I forgot everything,all my charts, and we started
arguing.
I was telling him the benefits,the numbers which I knew, and
we sort of yelled at each other,I don't know, for about 45
minutes and then all of a suddenhe says, oh, I got to go.
(17:57):
And he walks out.
So I thought, oh my God, I'mgoing to be fired.
You know, I really did.
And you know my boss just kindof shrugged his shoulders and
walked away.
I gathered my cells and droppedthem off at my office and walked
out to the parking lot andreally I was sort of, really
(18:19):
almost in tears.
I think I probably cried, I'mnot sure Andy says.
My husband said, hey, don'tworry, they're not going to fire
you.
And you know, the funny thingis the next morning now I go to
my office and there's a note tosee the chairman.
I thought, oh no.
But I go in and he is, allsmiles a totally different man
(18:41):
than the day before and hestarted telling me his story
about how he started his careerand he said OK, fine, how do you
want to negotiate the deal?
We agree with you.
How do you want to negotiate?
And he gave me some tips.
He said deal with the liars andget the deal going.
(19:02):
So anyway, we did that, butthat was being bold, because I
really I believed in it so muchthat I did raise my voice.
He was yelling and I wasyelling.
Mary Killelea (19:15):
It is.
It is such a great story ofboldness, you know, but I think
some of the lessons that I heardwas that you came in prepared
and you were, you know you hadyes.
Conviction in the benefits andthe value it brought the company
yes, and and, and you know whatthe result was?
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (19:34):
we increased the market share of
the users, of education users,by 20, so I felt really good
about that.
But that showed boldnessbecause actually I I believed it
so strongly.
I wasn't thinking about my job,I just thought it was best for
the company.
Mary Killelea (19:52):
What does to be bolder mean to you?
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (19:54):
To be bolder means you speak out for
your cause.
Whatever the cause is, you haveto have a.
You can't just be bold.
You have to believe in whatyour cause is and you have to
fight for it.
And to me, that means to bebold, not to not to shy away if
people are against it.
(20:14):
You have to explain your.
You have to explain your um, uh, your issue, your problem that
you're trying to solve to othersand your solution.
You have to be confident inyour solution.
All right, and other peoplehave to recognize that.
And that, to me, is being youneed to be bold in terms of
standing up for it.
Be strong and not just, youknow, give up at the first
(20:39):
question or at the firstnegative response, because
there'll always be negativeresponses.
Yeah Well, I mean it's, but youhave to, because there'll
always be negative responses.
Yeah Well, I mean it's, but youhave to.
You know life is filled withpeople good people and bad
people.
Other people want to make youlook bad.
You have to understand that.
But you just to me, everyoneshould get a job that they
(21:03):
believe in.
And if they believe in, theyhave to be good at it.
They have to understand it, andyou got to keep fighting for it
.
And if they believe in theyhave to be good at it.
They have to understand it.
You got to keep fighting for itand you get recognized.
But I don't see any reason why awoman cannot start in tech
today.
Even though I stumbled into itby accident, I never really felt
any different.
When I was a VP Now over inLatvia, they did tell me when I
(21:26):
first see, when I first wentover there, I spoke Latvian and
I was a woman, and they saidthey've never seen a woman know
so much about technology andspoke Latvian.
People told me that afterwardno people.
I think, if anything, womenshould be encouraged to go into
(21:51):
technology and into engineering.
They should do that, andespecially now when we see who
knows what's going to happen inthe AI.
There's a lot of manyopportunities there to
participate in the developmentof AI.
I mean that's an exciting fieldgoing forward for anyone.
Mary Killelea (22:10):
I mean and then that's interesting, that you
because that is one of thequestions I wanted to ask you
about was your thoughts on AIand the speed in which it is
like infiltrating, you know, theindustries right now.
How do you see AI enhancingwhat we do and, I guess, what
(22:33):
are the pros and cons in yourmind?
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (22:35):
Well, no, in my mind, AI is just
wonderful, All the opportunitiesthere.
See, some of the stuff I wasinvolved in my programming was
part of what now is AI'sdecision support stuff, but
automatic and that stuff likethat.
So, yeah, no, I think theconcepts are great.
I think what everybody has towatch out for is what I see,
(22:57):
what people, especially inmimicking someone's voice and
someone else.
I mean, that's something that Ithink needs to be addressed.
You see these movie starssaying they are the singers,
saying someone else duped myvoice, you know, and you got to
worry about that.
But I think that can all becontrolled.
(23:19):
But there should be, you know,some controls on it.
But no, I think it's going tohelp the world going forward,
but it does need to be monitoredsomewhat.
Just, you know you don't wantsomeone representing you calling
around doing things in yourname when it's not you, and
(23:44):
that's the kind of stuff.
I think that all can becontrolled with the proper
technology too.
But you know that's the kind ofstuff.
I think that all can becontrolled with the proper
technology too.
But you know that's yeah, butthat's an area that women can go
into right now.
Mary Killelea (23:56):
Absolutely, absolutely no.
I think it's an incredibleopportunity.
You know from AI policy ethical, unbiased.
You know as well as you knowthe development et cetera.
You know cybersecurity isanother one where I think women
can get into it's a huge growtharea.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (24:17):
Yes, it is.
Yes, it is, and it's veryexpensive.
I've seen that we have to getall the cybersecurity at our
company in Latvia.
It's very costly you verycostly to be insured.
So that's because work needs tobe done more in that area and
it's going on.
It's a good area to get into,but no, I think women in general
(24:41):
and you should not be afraid.
See, that's one of the thingsyou know.
Even in my area, where I wasasked to create, after my
scientific programming thing, Iwas asked to create business, a
commercial accounting system.
So I had the right buzzwordsdown.
But so don't be afraid.
Yeah, we got it.
I had the right people and wejust follow along and the
(25:13):
development.
You have to trust your people,but you got to hire the right
people.
But yeah, I mean you shouldn'tbe afraid.
I was afraid of sales but Iloved it.
You know, one can do anythingone wants to do if you put your
mind to it.
I think that's the one thing Ididn't mention, which is really
something that I think in mylife is my way.
(25:36):
I always remember this.
When I was in charge of theuniversities, we had university
conferences throughout the worldand one I had in Michigan.
I invited the father of thecomputer and at that time this
was in 1986.
And I had it here at Universityof Michigan and this person who
(25:59):
was John Vincent Atanasa he wasthen, I think, 83 years old and
he looked like you know themovie, that's what was it?
The uh, uh, what's his name?
Emmett, emmett, somebody, theabsent-minded professor in that
movie, back to the future, okay,looks just like that.
Anyway, he was so cute and hehis story about.
(26:22):
He's the one that invented thefour principles that are every
computer and he had to go tocourt to get the rights back
Because in the meantime this guyat the University of
Pennsylvania stole the credit.
But he had visited Atanasoff.
John Vincent Atanasoff was atIowa State and he invited
(26:44):
Mockley from University ofPennsylvania to visit.
He had taken all his drawingsand the court finally awarded
him the recognition he deserved.
But the interesting story washow he came up with it.
First of all, he said again, hesaid I had this feeling,
anything I wanted I could do.
And he said my mom had a, a,his mother was a math teacher
(27:10):
and she had a book other thanbase 10, and so that's where
base, he said, that's where base2 comes in the computers, which
is buying it, which is zero,one boolean, that's what happens
.
The electronics, okay.
So he, he was just uh, hiswhole story about how he
actually ended up finding thesolution.
(27:32):
And the anecdote is really thefunny part is when he actually
figured it all out was that he?
He said I was thinking,thinking, thinking and I was
missing something.
And he said I just had to getoff my mind.
I get in my car and I dosomething I seldom do.
And he said I was going 100miles an hour down the freeway
(27:54):
and all of a sudden he realizedhe was in the state of Illinois,
he said, and I wanted a drink.
So he said he saw a roadhouse.
He went into the roadhouse, heremembered his coat was really
heavy, hung it up and he ordereda bourbon of soda and he took a
napkin.
All of a sudden he said my mindwas clearer.
(28:14):
He said after the secondbourbon of soda he knew exactly
what he was going to do and hisprinciples were he's going to
have memory that can berefreshed, that memory and logic
, and be separate.
He'll use the electronics andeverything will be based to the
four principles, he says everycomputer.
(28:36):
He was so cute.
And then afterward one of thequestions I was taking questions
for, he said a doctor had nicestuff.
What was the brand of thebourbon that you I don't know, I
just know it was bourbon soda.
But he was really cute and Ihave a whole video of the whole
session.
But how he came up with it, thechallenges he faced, I think,
(28:59):
was I'll remember that forever.
Mary Killelea (29:02):
Your book is called the Wall Falls, a Woman
Rises.
Yes, and it's available todayon Amazon and I think it's you
know.
I encourage everyone to get itbecause your story is
magnificent.
What did you?
What was your biggest takeawayfrom writing this book?
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (29:20):
I have to say, the thing that makes
everything worthwhile is gettingnotes now from my former
employees the ones that hired,the 60 ones how working at BTG
35 years ago changed their lives, cry, because that, to me,
(29:50):
makes my whole uh, the work thatI did really worthwhile, that I
did make a difference, at leastin these people's lives in
terms of their careers.
Yeah, many of them now areexecutives and companies, but
he's he said, I think one guyjust this morning I looked at
one, he, he said you showed usthe way that's amazing yeah.
So I I kind of uh, I reallyappreciate that, but I I wanted
(30:10):
to write it because you know myown mind.
Uh, I thought it was veryinteresting and really I wanted
people to see in in the book thewall falls, I go step by step
and each of my disappointmentsand challenges that are facing
how I reacted to it and, I think, anyone.
I would like people to see thatthey should never give up
(30:34):
that's probably the way I wouldput it, because there's always a
solution.
And don't be afraid.
Don't be afraid of newchallenges when you may not be
certain that you can do this,but believe me, you can.
One can do anything they want,but you have to commit yourself
to it and dedicate yourself toit.
So that's been my motto andI've enjoyed it writing it.
Mary Killelea (30:59):
Daggy, it has been such an honor to have you
on the show.
Thank you so much.
Your story is interesting.
Your contributions are soimpressive and so impactful.
Thank you for being on the show.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (31:13):
Thank you, Mary.
Mary Killelea (31:18):
Thanks for listening to the episode today.
It was really fun chatting withmy guest.
If you liked our show, pleaselike it and share it with your
friends.
If you want to learn what we'reup to, please go check out our
website at 2BBouldercom.
That's the number 2, little b,bouldercom.
Hi there, my name is Mary Kiloalea.
Welcome to the To Be Bolderpodcast providing career
insights for the next generationof women in business and tech.
To Be Bolder was created out ofmy love for technology and
marketing, my desire to bringtogether like-minded women and
my hope to be a great role modeland source of inspiration for
my two girls and other youngwomen like you, encouraging you
(00:22):
guys to show up and to be bolderand to know that anything you
guys dream of it's totallypossible.
So sit back, relax and enjoythe conversation.
Hi there and welcome to theshow.
Today we are so lucky to bejoined by an extraordinary woman
who has been a pioneer in somany ways Daggie Lacey.
(00:43):
Daggie is what she goes by,embodies resilience and bold
leadership, from being a refugeeto shattering glass ceilings as
the first woman programmer atthe Burroughs Corporation and
later its first female vicepresident in such a
male-dominated tech world of the1980s.
When the Berlin Wall fell, shewas invited back to her homeland
(01:05):
as the first official Westernvisitor, where she helped
modernize Lativia's technologyinfrastructure, playing a
crucial role in the country'sacceptance into NATO and the EU.
At 81, and I'm telling you shelooks 31, dagy continues to run
the international technologycompany she founded back in 1991
(01:27):
.
Remarkably, one of the first toemploy remote workers before
the World Wide Web even existed,which okay.
The fact that she did thatmakes me love her even more.
I'm dedicated to remote workforever.
Daggie, it is such an honor tospeak with you.
Thank you for being here.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (01:44):
Thank you so much, Mary, for having me
.
Mary Killelea (01:47):
You're welcome, Okay, so let's start by having
you tell us in your words, froma high level kind of, what was
your career journey.
And I know that's probably animpossible question, but let's
try.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (02:01):
I'll start Well.
First of all, the country isLatvia, and I don't know if
people know where it is, butit's south of the Scandinavian
countries, so it's right acrossthe Baltic Sea from Sweden and
from Norway and Finland.
Okay, so that's where thecountry Latvia is, and it was an
(02:24):
independent country since 1918.
And during World War Two thecommunists took it over.
I was born in Latvia, but wefled.
When I was a year old, dad, whowas a public prosecutor at the
(02:49):
time, knew he was on the wantedlist, and by that what I mean is
, um, what the communistsbasically did when they inva,
invaded all the baltic.
The other three countries isestonia, latvia is the middle,
and lithuania, and of course youknow.
Then you got poland and andyou've got germ Germany and
France, all that going west.
But what they did is they would, in the middle of the night,
(03:11):
come in and they would knock onthe doors and give the family
half an hour to pack whateverthey could carry and then put
them on trains where they putmen in one boxcar, women in
another and kids in another.
So of course it was a horribleexperience and many died on the
way and so forth.
So my dad didn't want toexperience that, and so they
(03:35):
held out in Latvia as long asthey could.
And when he came back he toldmy mom look, we got to get out
of here.
There's a last ship going toGermany from Latvia that will
take refugees.
So we boarded that ship and weended up in Germany in a town
called Würzburg, germany, and wewere vetted there.
(03:58):
We were lucky to be in theAmerican zone.
There was a British zone,american zone and a Russian zone
.
So in the American zone we werethere about five years, vetted,
and finally we were given threechoices to go To immigrate to
Australia, to go to Californiaor to Indiana.
(04:24):
And my mom said she looked atthe map and she thought
Australia is way too far,california could fall off into
the ocean and Indiana was thecenter of the United States.
So they chose Indiana andthat's how it all started.
So we got to Indiana.
Our sponsor that's anotherpoint.
(04:44):
So we got to Indiana Oursponsor that's another point.
You had to have a sponsor inorder to get out and that
sponsor had to give you aguarantee of a job.
So they guaranteed my dademployment and it was a Lutheran
church that sponsored us inIndianapolis.
(05:05):
And so we arrived inIndianapolis and I didn't really
know any English.
So I had interestingexperiences at the Indianapolis
public school system.
In the very beginning I was alittle shocked.
You know, I had these longpigtail break with bows in them
and none of the other kids didhave that.
And I remember being sodifferent and not knowing
(05:27):
English.
The kids would stare at me withbig eyes.
The teacher was writing red,blue, green.
So that was the beginning.
But I picked up English veryquickly.
They gave me, I think, a thirdgrade child who spent time with
me and it just seemed just likethat.
(05:48):
I understood the teacher andeverything was good.
So, yeah, so I went through theIndianapolis school system.
I went to Arsenal Technical HighSchool and I went to Butler
University where I graduatedwith mathematics and chemistry.
I worked my way all the waythrough.
I would help my parents, Iworked evenings at department
(06:09):
stores and so forth in order tohelp them, because not that they
asked me, but I saw they neededit.
So but everything went fine, Igraduated and then in the
meantime, my husband, andres andI, who was also a Latvian, we
got engaged.
He went to Purdue University,which is another school in
(06:29):
Indiana, and he had accepted ajob on the East Coast.
But we agreed why don't I get ajob in Indianapolis, just for a
year to save some money?
So that's what we agreed andthat's what I did.
So upon graduation I asked mymath professor I said well, what
do you recommend?
Because I really didn't want touse chemistry, because I hated
(06:51):
lab work, didn't like it at all.
An insurance company wherethey're looking for actuary type
work, or there's an up andcoming thing now called
programming.
And he said for example, hereat Indianapolis we have IBM and
(07:12):
Burroughs.
So that's what I did.
I applied to both insurancecompany and to Burroughs and the
interesting thing in terms ofhow I selected my career was $25
a month.
I knew nothing aboutprogramming because at Butler I
(07:36):
took theoretical math and Ihadn't really.
I'd seen a computer but didn'tknow much about it.
So I chose because of $25 amonth.
I chose my career as aprogrammer and that's how it all
started.
But I didn't realize I was thefirst female programmer until
(07:58):
much later my boss apologizedfor me and he said I really have
to apologize for the barrage oftests that we gave you, because
you see, he said, the companyBurroughs never had any
programmers.
They're women.
So he said, we called theheadquarters here in Detroit to
(08:19):
check is it okay to hire a girl?
And they said, well, there's norules against it, just give her
these tests.
So that's how it started.
So that's how.
But then they told me I was thefirst female programmer.
But uh, yeah, so that's how itstarted.
In indianapolis they thentransferred me to uh
(08:39):
headquarters here in michigan touse my math skills.
I developed a mathematicaloptimization program.
That's another story.
That's actually the first timeI realized the difference
between women and guys inbusiness.
But I could tell an hour laterno doubt, let's hear it now.
Mary Killelea (09:00):
I think that's great hear it now.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (09:09):
I think that the story was this I had
developed this optimizationprogram that basically oil
companies really needed.
And in those days, you see, thecomputers were, you know, big a
room filled with equipment.
There was a separate box formag tape units and there was a
box for your disk files, therewas a printer box and there was
(09:32):
a central processor andeverything was connected
underneath these raised floorsand everything had to be air
conditioned.
So it was, and these bigcomputer systems, any programs
that worked on these computersystems, at least at Burroughs,
were free of charge.
So many times, because of thesoftware, the programs, the
(09:56):
client would buy the big system.
So in my case I finished myprogram optimization, and my
boss calls me and said hey,daggy, how would you like to
present it in Japan?
And I said, what Japan?
He said yeah, mitsubishi oilhas this need for figuring out
(10:18):
the cheapest ingredients.
And see what this math programthing does.
It solves mathematicalequations over and, over and
over again until you get thecheapest price.
So you get the ingredients thatmeet the.
So that was the essence of it.
So I said great, and I calledmy husband.
He had since then joined thetire industry.
(10:39):
I said, guess what?
I got to go to Japan.
And he said, well, okay, great.
So we got a passport.
And I got to go to Japan.
And he said, well, okay, great.
So we got a passport and Ireally was ready to go.
Boss calls me in.
He was red as a beet and I knewthere was something.
He said Daggy, I hate to tellyou, but they found out you're a
woman and in Japan women cannotaddress a business meeting.
(11:03):
So basically I was reallydisappointed.
See, my name is reallyD-A-G-N-I-J-A.
They couldn't tell initially ifit was a guy or a girl, so,
anyway, so I was disappointed.
But then the most interestingthing was, a couple of weeks
(11:24):
later I lost Doug Wayne Nelsoncalls me and he was smiling and
I knew it was something good.
He said guess what you won?
And I looked at him.
He said, yes, the Mitsubishioil.
They're going to come to theGetty Estate.
John was a JP Getty Estate inCalifornia to meet you.
(11:44):
So and I've arranged the use ofthe company plane.
So so, long story short, we,the sales guy and I were the
only two on this private jetgoing morning to Detroit, to Los
Angeles area, to the Gettyestate, and, and when I got
there, these two Japanesegentlemen rushed up to me and
(12:07):
they were bowing like this andthey gave me each gave me a box,
a gift wrap box, and on theplane back I opened it and it
was two beautiful sets of pearls.
It was just one.
So I forgave them, basicallybecause I'd never been in a
private jet.
But that was my.
That's when I first realizedreally the women guy issue,
(12:31):
because at that time, at thattime, uh, I didn't really think
about it that way.
I was just doing my job.
And then, and then, but atBurroughs, um, I continued to be
promoted, but it wasmerit-based.
I became the manager of mathprogramming and then I became
(12:51):
manager of scientificprogramming and then I became
manager of commercial businesssystems this is all software
development stuff.
And then finally, I rememberthe vice president of our whole
area called me in.
He said Daggy, we're setting upthings by line of business and
(13:11):
we would like to open a branchfor schools in the state of
Michigan.
How would you like to staff itand be branch manager?
And of course, at that point Ididn't know what to do.
I before I always hatedsalespeople.
I mean, I just didn't likesalespeople and I had no
background in sales and so Italked to my husband and he said
(13:34):
look, hey, if you don't like it, you can always quit.
So because we always had thisdeal that both of us were
professionals and we wouldalways do what's best for the
company, do the job and not playpolitics that's how we started.
Anyway, I took the job and Iloved it.
I loved the sales.
(13:56):
I mean it was great.
I learned how to write salescontracts, how to install
computers and anyway.
So there's a lot of fun.
And after that then I waspromoted to industry marketing
and then vice president.
Actually, I have an interestingstory.
Yes, were you talking aboutbold?
Mary Killelea (14:16):
Yes, please share your bold story.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (14:19):
My bold story was this See, my job as
vice president of the educationline of business was to increase
the number of users in schoolsand universities.
Okay, and in those days westill remember, we had these
bigger computers, so you neededa program to attract them, like
(14:39):
for schools.
We needed, particularly in theUS, I forgot now it was like
64,000 or 36 opportunities andin this public school system you
have grade reporting, you haveclassroom scheduling, you have
student records, you havepayroll personnel, and so I knew
(15:04):
I needed something and my teamand I decided well, why don't we
look around and see whatschools use?
I mean, that time it was Unisysequipment.
And we did, and we found asoftware company.
But Unisys had never purchasedany software company.
They had their own teams.
(15:25):
But I knew it would takeforever to start building a team
and and I probably wouldn't getthe right funding anyway.
So what I did?
I presented to, uh, to.
I presented a proposal ofpurchasing it and you know the
interesting thing is, when Ipresented it, I presented it to
(15:46):
the sales district managers andthe vice president.
They all loved it and they saidhey, that's great, because I
don't want to be bothered withany programming support, because
this company that would supportthe software and all I have to
worry is about the boxes, thehardware.
So they all loved it.
And so then the funny thing isthey.
(16:07):
But you see, this was arisk-taking thing and everyone
was playing politics, no one youknow, uh.
So, but I really believed in it.
I had created a nice businessplan.
So, uh, then finally they saidthey, their group, said to my
(16:27):
boss, who was then an executivevice president well, why don't
you, bill, go ahead and presentit to the chairman?
And the next thing I know, billcalls me and says I got an
appointment two days later atthe chairman's office and I said
, great, what do you need foryour presentation?
He said, no, you, you present,I will listen, you see it's, it
(16:52):
would be me taking the risk.
And and then, okay, so then, um, so then I said, well, okay,
and I remember arriving thatmorning and I was kind of
nervous about the presentationbecause I'd heard this chairman
was really rude and rough.
So anyway, the time came and Iwent up to the executive office
(17:14):
and my boss was there, and itwas me.
My boss and I had, in thosedays he had a projector I don't
remember a projector with cells.
That's how we madepresentations.
Okay, so I had my first cell upwhich said commitment to
education and income.
As the chairman, what do youmean?
(17:35):
Commitment, I have you have toconvince me.
And you know he was so rude andyou know what I did.
I said so I forgot everything,all my charts, and we started
arguing.
I was telling him the benefits,the numbers which I knew, and
we sort of yelled at each other,I don't know, for about 45
minutes and then all of a suddenhe says, oh, I got to go.
(17:57):
And he walks out.
So I thought, oh my God, I'mgoing to be fired.
You know, I really did.
And you know my boss just kindof shrugged his shoulders and
walked away.
I gathered my cells and droppedthem off at my office and walked
out to the parking lot andreally I was sort of, really
(18:19):
almost in tears.
I think I probably cried, I'mnot sure Andy says.
My husband said, hey, don'tworry, they're not going to fire
you.
And you know, the funny thingis the next morning now I go to
my office and there's a note tosee the chairman.
I thought, oh no.
But I go in and he is, allsmiles a totally different man
(18:41):
than the day before and hestarted telling me his story
about how he started his careerand he said OK, fine, how do you
want to negotiate the deal?
We agree with you.
How do you want to negotiate?
And he gave me some tips.
He said deal with the liars andget the deal going.
(19:02):
So anyway, we did that, butthat was being bold, because I
really I believed in it so muchthat I did raise my voice.
He was yelling and I wasyelling.
Mary Killelea (19:15):
It is.
It is such a great story ofboldness, you know, but I think
some of the lessons that I heardwas that you came in prepared
and you were, you know you hadyes.
Conviction in the benefits andthe value it brought the company
yes, and and, and you know whatthe result was?
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (19:34):
we increased the market share of
the users, of education users,by 20, so I felt really good
about that.
But that showed boldnessbecause actually I I believed it
so strongly.
I wasn't thinking about my job,I just thought it was best for
the company.
Mary Killelea (19:52):
What does to be bolder mean to you?
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (19:54):
To be bolder means you speak out for
your cause.
Whatever the cause is, you haveto have a.
You can't just be bold.
You have to believe in whatyour cause is and you have to
fight for it.
And to me, that means to bebold, not to not to shy away if
people are against it.
(20:14):
You have to explain your.
You have to explain your um, uh, your issue, your problem that
you're trying to solve to othersand your solution.
You have to be confident inyour solution.
All right, and other peoplehave to recognize that.
And that, to me, is being youneed to be bold in terms of
standing up for it.
Be strong and not just, youknow, give up at the first
(20:39):
question or at the firstnegative response, because
there'll always be negativeresponses.
Yeah Well, I mean it's, but youhave to, because there'll
always be negative responses.
Yeah Well, I mean it's, but youhave to.
You know life is filled withpeople good people and bad
people.
Other people want to make youlook bad.
You have to understand that.
But you just to me, everyoneshould get a job that they
(21:03):
believe in.
And if they believe in, theyhave to be good at it.
They have to understand it, andyou got to keep fighting for it
.
And if they believe in theyhave to be good at it.
They have to understand it.
You got to keep fighting for itand you get recognized.
But I don't see any reason why awoman cannot start in tech
today.
Even though I stumbled into itby accident, I never really felt
any different.
When I was a VP Now over inLatvia, they did tell me when I
(21:26):
first see, when I first wentover there, I spoke Latvian and
I was a woman, and they saidthey've never seen a woman know
so much about technology andspoke Latvian.
People told me that afterwardno people.
I think, if anything, womenshould be encouraged to go into
(21:51):
technology and into engineering.
They should do that, andespecially now when we see who
knows what's going to happen inthe AI.
There's a lot of manyopportunities there to
participate in the developmentof AI.
I mean that's an exciting fieldgoing forward for anyone.
Mary Killelea (22:10):
I mean and then that's interesting, that you
because that is one of thequestions I wanted to ask you
about was your thoughts on AIand the speed in which it is
like infiltrating, you know, theindustries right now.
How do you see AI enhancingwhat we do and, I guess, what
(22:33):
are the pros and cons in yourmind?
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (22:35):
Well, no, in my mind, AI is just
wonderful, All the opportunitiesthere.
See, some of the stuff I wasinvolved in my programming was
part of what now is AI'sdecision support stuff, but
automatic and that stuff likethat.
So, yeah, no, I think theconcepts are great.
I think what everybody has towatch out for is what I see,
(22:57):
what people, especially inmimicking someone's voice and
someone else.
I mean, that's something that Ithink needs to be addressed.
You see these movie starssaying they are the singers,
saying someone else duped myvoice, you know, and you got to
worry about that.
But I think that can all becontrolled.
(23:19):
But there should be, you know,some controls on it.
But no, I think it's going tohelp the world going forward,
but it does need to be monitoredsomewhat.
Just, you know you don't wantsomeone representing you calling
around doing things in yourname when it's not you, and
(23:44):
that's the kind of stuff.
I think that all can becontrolled with the proper
technology too.
But you know that's the kind ofstuff.
I think that all can becontrolled with the proper
technology too.
But you know that's yeah, butthat's an area that women can go
into right now.
Mary Killelea (23:56):
Absolutely, absolutely no.
I think it's an incredibleopportunity.
You know from AI policy ethical, unbiased.
You know as well as you knowthe development et cetera.
You know cybersecurity isanother one where I think women
can get into it's a huge growtharea.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (24:17):
Yes, it is.
Yes, it is, and it's veryexpensive.
I've seen that we have to getall the cybersecurity at our
company in Latvia.
It's very costly you verycostly to be insured.
So that's because work needs tobe done more in that area and
it's going on.
It's a good area to get into,but no, I think women in general
(24:41):
and you should not be afraid.
See, that's one of the thingsyou know.
Even in my area, where I wasasked to create, after my
scientific programming thing, Iwas asked to create business, a
commercial accounting system.
So I had the right buzzwordsdown.
But so don't be afraid.
Yeah, we got it.
I had the right people and wejust follow along and the
(25:13):
development.
You have to trust your people,but you got to hire the right
people.
But yeah, I mean you shouldn'tbe afraid.
I was afraid of sales but Iloved it.
You know, one can do anythingone wants to do if you put your
mind to it.
I think that's the one thing Ididn't mention, which is really
something that I think in mylife is my way.
(25:36):
I always remember this.
When I was in charge of theuniversities, we had university
conferences throughout the worldand one I had in Michigan.
I invited the father of thecomputer and at that time this
was in 1986.
And I had it here at Universityof Michigan and this person who
(25:59):
was John Vincent Atanasa he wasthen, I think, 83 years old and
he looked like you know themovie, that's what was it?
The uh, uh, what's his name?
Emmett, emmett, somebody, theabsent-minded professor in that
movie, back to the future, okay,looks just like that.
Anyway, he was so cute and hehis story about.
(26:22):
He's the one that invented thefour principles that are every
computer and he had to go tocourt to get the rights back
Because in the meantime this guyat the University of
Pennsylvania stole the credit.
But he had visited Atanasoff.
John Vincent Atanasoff was atIowa State and he invited
(26:44):
Mockley from University ofPennsylvania to visit.
He had taken all his drawingsand the court finally awarded
him the recognition he deserved.
But the interesting story washow he came up with it.
First of all, he said again, hesaid I had this feeling,
anything I wanted I could do.
And he said my mom had a, a,his mother was a math teacher
(27:10):
and she had a book other thanbase 10, and so that's where
base, he said, that's where base2 comes in the computers, which
is buying it, which is zero,one boolean, that's what happens
.
The electronics, okay.
So he, he was just uh, hiswhole story about how he
actually ended up finding thesolution.
(27:32):
And the anecdote is really thefunny part is when he actually
figured it all out was that he?
He said I was thinking,thinking, thinking and I was
missing something.
And he said I just had to getoff my mind.
I get in my car and I dosomething I seldom do.
And he said I was going 100miles an hour down the freeway
(27:54):
and all of a sudden he realizedhe was in the state of Illinois,
he said, and I wanted a drink.
So he said he saw a roadhouse.
He went into the roadhouse, heremembered his coat was really
heavy, hung it up and he ordereda bourbon of soda and he took a
napkin.
All of a sudden he said my mindwas clearer.
(28:14):
He said after the secondbourbon of soda he knew exactly
what he was going to do and hisprinciples were he's going to
have memory that can berefreshed, that memory and logic
, and be separate.
He'll use the electronics andeverything will be based to the
four principles, he says everycomputer.
(28:36):
He was so cute.
And then afterward one of thequestions I was taking questions
for, he said a doctor had nicestuff.
What was the brand of thebourbon that you I don't know, I
just know it was bourbon soda.
But he was really cute and Ihave a whole video of the whole
session.
But how he came up with it, thechallenges he faced, I think,
(28:59):
was I'll remember that forever.
Mary Killelea (29:02):
Your book is called the Wall Falls, a Woman
Rises.
Yes, and it's available todayon Amazon and I think it's you
know.
I encourage everyone to get itbecause your story is
magnificent.
What did you?
What was your biggest takeawayfrom writing this book?
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (29:20):
I have to say, the thing that makes
everything worthwhile is gettingnotes now from my former
employees the ones that hired,the 60 ones how working at BTG
35 years ago changed their lives, cry, because that, to me,
(29:50):
makes my whole uh, the work thatI did really worthwhile, that I
did make a difference, at leastin these people's lives in
terms of their careers.
Yeah, many of them now areexecutives and companies, but
he's he said, I think one guyjust this morning I looked at
one, he, he said you showed usthe way that's amazing yeah.
So I I kind of uh, I reallyappreciate that, but I I wanted
(30:10):
to write it because you know myown mind.
Uh, I thought it was veryinteresting and really I wanted
people to see in in the book thewall falls, I go step by step
and each of my disappointmentsand challenges that are facing
how I reacted to it and, I think, anyone.
I would like people to see thatthey should never give up
(30:34):
that's probably the way I wouldput it, because there's always a
solution.
And don't be afraid.
Don't be afraid of newchallenges when you may not be
certain that you can do this,but believe me, you can.
One can do anything they want,but you have to commit yourself
to it and dedicate yourself toit.
So that's been my motto andI've enjoyed it writing it.
Mary Killelea (30:59):
Daggy, it has been such an honor to have you
on the show.
Thank you so much.
Your story is interesting.
Your contributions are soimpressive and so impactful.
Thank you for being on the show.
Dagnija, "Daggie" Lacis (31:13):
Thank you, Mary.
Mary Killelea (31:18):
Thanks for listening to the episode today.
It was really fun chatting withmy guest.
If you liked our show, pleaselike it and share it with your
friends.
If you want to learn what we'reup to, please go check out our
website at 2BBouldercom.
That's the number 2, little b,bouldercom.
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