April 15, 2025 • 31 mins
Stepping away from the corporate world into entrepreneurship isn't just about changing careers—it's about transforming your identity, mindset, and relationship with work. In this candid conversation with Deb Boulanger, CEO of Life After Corporate, we explore the often challenging but deeply rewarding journey that high-achieving women navigate when launching their own businesses.
Deb shares her personal transition story, from teaching to corporate leadership to founding her own company, revealing that the entrepreneurial path proved more difficult than anticipated. She explains how the identity shift from having preset calendars and clear expectations to designing your own business requires mastering not just strategy, but your internal dialogue. We dig into the psychological barriers that hold women back—particularly around pricing and self-worth—uncovering the startling reality that women entrepreneurs earn just 30 cents to the dollar compared to their male counterparts.
Financial considerations take center stage as Deb recommends having at least a year's cushion before making the leap, while noting that expenses typically decrease after leaving corporate life. For women caught between staying in corporate or launching a business, she emphasizes the importance of making a clear decision rather than vacillating, as "the universe can't deliver on a split desire."
The conversation moves beyond the misleading image of entrepreneurship portrayed on social media to address practical matters like work-life "blend," the critical importance of networking, and how to approach business development. Deb's advice culminates in encouraging women to trust their intuition—what she calls "the niggle"—and to price based on the transformation they deliver rather than trying to be merely affordable.
Whether you're contemplating leaving corporate, have recently been laid off, or are already building your business, this episode offers honest insights to help you navigate your journey with greater confidence and clarity. Ready to be bolder in your career? This conversation will show you how.
Learn more about AnitaB.org
When you subscribe to the podcast, you are supporting our work's mission, allowing us to continue highlighting successful women in a variety of careers to inspire others helping pay our wonderful editor, Chris, and helping me in paying our hosting expenses. 🎉
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary Killelea (00:01):
Hi there, my name is Mary Kiloalea.
Welcome to the To Be Bolderpodcast providing career
insights for the next generationof women in business and tech.
To Be Bolder was created out ofmy love for technology and
marketing, my desire to bringtogether like-minded women and
my hope to be a great role modeland source of inspiration for
my two girls and other youngwomen like you, encouraging you
(00:22):
guys to show up and to be bolderand to know that anything you
guys dream of it's totallypossible.
So sit back, relax and enjoythe conversation.
Hey there, today we're going totalk about a hot topic for many
women that are transitioningfrom corporate leadership to
successful entrepreneurship withmy guest today, deb Boulanger.
(00:44):
Deb is an inspiring businessmentor, thought leader and
speaker who has dedicated hercareer to helping high-achieving
women confidently step intoentrepreneurship.
As a CEO of Life AfterCorporate and the host of the
Life After Corporate podcast,deb is a powerhouse when it
comes to guiding women throughthe often daunting shift from a
(01:05):
corporate career to a thrivingcoaching or consulting business.
With over 25 years of corporateleadership experience, managing
multi-million dollar businesslines, deb knows firsthand what
it takes to navigate careertransitions, build sustainable
businesses and break throughmindset blocks that hold so many
women back businesses andbreakthrough mindset blocks that
(01:27):
hold so many women back.
Her no-nonsense strategicapproach has helped countless
women turn their expertise intoprofitable businesses, and today
she's here to share her wisdomwith all of us, and I'm thrilled
to have her here.
Thank you so much for beinghere, deb.
Deb Boulanger (01:38):
Mary, it's my pleasure.
I'm excited for theconversation.
Mary Killelea (01:41):
Okay.
So we had a chance to talk acouple other day, a couple times
the other day, and I was like,okay, this woman and I have just
such good synergy together soI'm excited.
Tell everyone kind of yourjourney in the corporate world
so they have that backgroundunderstanding of the role that
you had and how you got there.
Deb Boulanger (02:00):
Yeah.
So I mean, my beginning wasreally as an educator.
I have a degree in elementaryschool education and after
teaching in the 80s for fouryears and getting such poor pay
that I was waitressing fournights a week, I decided to get
a job in business and I startedin sales.
(02:20):
And because I'm a problemsolver and pattern identifier, I
would always spot thesechallenges that we were having
because, as a really fastgrowing startup, I worked for
Gartner back in the day and Iwould then say, hey, you know,
we have this challenge and I'dlike to go solve it, and the
(02:41):
leaders in the company alwayssaid yes, so so I went from
sales to marketingcommunications, hit my first
glass ceiling, left for sevenyears, came back as a VP of
product development and kind of,the rest is history from there.
My pattern recognition served mewell in market research and
product development and then Iwas developing all and testing
(03:03):
all of these concepts with thesebusiness units, only to see
these ideas really fly off theshelf as new programs that the
company was launching.
And that's when I said, hey, Iwant to own one of these.
And when I decided that mycorporate career was complete
there was nowhere else.
I wanted to go complete.
(03:27):
There was nowhere else I wantedto go.
I decided well, I know how todo this.
If I can do it for the company,I can do it for myself.
And lo and behold, I launchedmy own business, and it was so
much harder than I thought.
Mary Killelea (03:35):
So you mentioned it was harder than you thought.
Let's talk about some of thelessons that you learned.
Deb Boulanger (03:41):
So getting the inspiration to launch my
business was truly the easy part.
The harder part of it all wasdialing in.
Who am I now?
And it's such a huge identityshift when you're used to having
your calendar set up for you.
You get into the office ateight o'clock in the morning and
(04:05):
you have about a half hour ofgetting your act together and
then, boom, your day is takenoff like your day is
predetermined for you, and soare your goals, and so so are
your expectations.
And now, suddenly, you findyourself sitting at your desk
with a lot of ideas, not surewhere to focus first, and no
(04:26):
real discipline around yourcalendar because the priorities
haven't been established yet.
And so, for me, I started mybusiness not as a business
launch and growth expert.
I started my business as a lifereinvention coach, because
that's what I was going throughat that point in time, and so I
(04:48):
was newly minted, newcertification.
I felt like the newbie on theblock, not completely sure of
what I was doing or how I wasgoing to get clients.
Those first couple of years isthat, when we make this
transition from corporate leaderto business owner, it's not
(05:09):
your latest credential thatyou're bringing to the market.
It's the complete compilationof your lifetime of experience,
including other things that youdid before you even got to
corporate.
So I mentioned teaching andteaching other people.
When I discover a path or Ihave a framework or a template,
(05:30):
my next desire is who can Iteach this to so that they can
have this experience too?
So it was everything.
It was the teaching, it was thepersonal development that I had
gone through and breakingthrough psychological barriers.
It was the frameworks that Ihad developed when I was at
Gartner on how to launch things,how to do market research, how
to test the market and bringhigh demand services that people
(05:54):
wanted to sell.
People wanted to buy, that wereeasy to sell.
Mary Killelea (05:58):
Everything that you just said resonates so
strongly with me because I amgoing through that transition
right now, so I'm like checkcheck, check.
And I'm like okay, I got tobook an appointment.
What do you tell the women whobecause there's so many women
that work for corporate andtheir title is their identity
(06:19):
how do you help them detach fromthat?
I mean, you talk about lookingat the full picture, but I know
there's so much more to it thanthat.
Deb Boulanger (06:29):
Yeah, and it's more of how do they integrate
with that and not detach from it.
So when we are in the corporateworld and when we have achieved
great things and for some ofthem they always had that ideal
like I want to be in the C-suiteor I want to be a senior
executive For me I didn't reallyhave that direction.
(06:53):
All I knew was I love to solveproblems and I like to achieve
things and I like to recognition.
So that was, and I was slightlyinsecure.
So that's a perfect recipe forcorporate success.
So that was, and I was slightlyinsecure.
So that's a perfect recipe forcorporate success.
Right, you work hard to get therecognition, you happen to be
smart, but you don't know it allof those things and so you
(07:16):
don't leave that achievementbehind.
I am proud of the work that Idid when I was in corporate.
I am proud of the level ofsuccess that I achieved did when
I was in corporate.
I am proud of the level ofsuccess that I achieved.
I never imagined that thatwould be my path when I was
getting my degree in education.
So I think you don't throw thataway.
It's just that you add, youround it out, you round it out
(07:39):
with bigger leaps and movingthrough imposter syndrome in a
new way, taking bigger risks.
So in some ways, yes, you'releaving the title behind and you
are a beginner, which is reallyhard for accomplished women to
tackle.
(07:59):
It's like wait a minute, I kneweverything, I had it locked and
loaded, I knew how to manageinternal politics, I knew how to
be successful and now, suddenly, here I am and I don't have a
clue.
I think the hardest piece isnot letting go of the title, but
to embrace the beginner's mindof oh, I do need to learn new
(08:20):
things.
I am new to this and it feels alittle uncertain and insecure.
And how do you?
Mary Killelea (08:26):
stay resilient during that moment of, you know,
stepping off the ledge andbeing uncomfortable, because I
know there is growth in that.
I mean, everyone says it and Ibelieve in it, but resilience is
required.
Deb Boulanger (08:42):
Yes, and now more than ever.
I mean, we're recording thispodcast at a very strange time
in history and a verychallenging time for women
everywhere, and so, whetheryou're still in corporate or
you're making this leap,resilience is the number one
attribute that you need toembody, and for me, it was a
(09:03):
journey of faith, because I feltcalled to do this.
It wasn't an idea that Iincubated in a vacuum.
It was something that I feltcalled to help other women like.
Oh wow, I kind of created thislevel of awareness about this
stage of life I am in right nowand how my needs have changed,
(09:24):
my desires have changed and whatI want in my life has changed.
I can share this with otherpeople, and so it came from a
desire to share and to helpothers along the way, and I have
felt that responsibility.
But it is a calling, and in ourcorporate swag we have
resilience revolutionary, youknow printed on the sleeves of
(09:46):
our sweatshirts, becauseresilience is is key.
Mary Killelea (09:49):
Yeah absolutely so.
Let's talk about life aftercorporate um appropriate name.
Give us an overview of yourcompany, who you serve, the
things that you offer and andwe'll start there- yeah, when I
first started it, I tookeverybody.
Deb Boulanger (10:06):
It's like if you want to launch a business, I can
help you, as long as it's aservice-based business.
And what I learned along theway is the way I think, the way
I operate and where I've comefrom, how I speak and how fast I
move resonates most stronglywith other corporate women.
So I work only with corporatewomen leaders.
When I first got started, mostof them were in their 50s, some
(10:30):
in their 60s.
Now I'm finding younger andyounger leaders coming to the
entrepreneurship table in theirearly 40s or some in their late
30s.
And it doesn't matter where youare in your corporate journey.
It matters that you've had thatcorporate experience, because
you'll resonate with how I teach, how we operate inside our
(10:51):
programs, which are the LaunchLab if you're just getting
started, and the ReliableRevenue Mastermind if you're
looking to scale up revenues tomid-six figures.
And so I learned early on andit's a journey everyone takes
because you'll kiss some frogsbefore you find your ideal
clients, but that is also a keypart of the journey.
Mary Killelea (11:13):
So, like I said before, I'm kind of your ideal
client in the sense that I'mtrying to get clarity.
How do you help women getclarity when there's fear of
leaving money on the table orthey see themselves being good
at multiple things?
How do you work someone to feelsecure in their clarity choice?
Deb Boulanger (11:36):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Clarity is the very first stepand, like you just voiced,
there's a lot of things going onin your mind, and so the first
step is learning how to masterwhat's going on in your mind,
and so the first step islearning how to master what's
going on in your mind Literally.
It's not a business skill.
It's about let's get clear onwhat that internal talk track is
.
The very first thing that youdo in the launch lab is identify
(11:59):
your self-sabotage pattern,because if anything's going to
take you down, let's call it outout front so that we're aware
of it.
Right, and a lot of that ishappening right now, and it
happens to women before theytake the leap, like what happens
if I'm not successful?
What happens?
I may have had conversationswith women who said I'm so
afraid to leave my corporate job, I don't want to be homeless, I
(12:20):
don't want to live in a boxunder a bridge.
Well, that's not likely tohappen.
That's a fear-based response.
So, in order for you to takepowerful action, we need to get
fear in its place and you needto take control.
That's such good advice.
Mary Killelea (12:36):
What, financially , do you advise someone?
There's obviously somesituations where you get
severance, which is wonderful, Ithink, because I'm just not
about entitlement, so I thinkthings like that are truly gifts
.
I guess, what's yourrecommendation for someone
listening?
Deb Boulanger (12:55):
Yeah, and it varies.
You know there's no one solidpath to replacing your corporate
salary.
I would say make sure you haveat least a cushion of a year.
And what most people don'trealize is, once you leave your
corporate job, your expenses godown Right.
So you're not buying theclothes, you're not spending
(13:16):
money on the gas, there's a lotof expenses you don't have, and
there's also a lot of habitsthat we have when we have a big
salary we feel entitled to.
You know, buy the designer bag,like there's no need for that
stuff right now, and so yourexpenses go down.
So the money you have tends tostretch longer.
If you can also have anotherfinancial cushion savings that
(13:39):
you've set aside, a home equityline of credit, a partner who's
willing to foot the bills whileyou ramp up your business those
are all great things to have inplace until you feel like you
have a solid footing and you'vegot this machine of sales and
marketing going, at least forthe time being, because
everything changes, everythingshifts.
(13:59):
We want to be current to what'shappening right now, but you do
need that cushion and it takesa year or two to replace a
corporate salary, honestly,depending on how much money you
were making.
Mary Killelea (14:09):
What do you tell the women who are recently kind
of shell-shocked because theywere laid off and did not see it
coming?
What I find is people get stuckin that shell-shocked mode way
too long.
Deb Boulanger (14:23):
Yeah.
And then there's this well,maybe I'll hang out my shingle,
maybe I should go look foranother job.
And there's this point ofvacillation and indecision, and
what I always say is that theuniverse can't deliver on a
split desire.
It's you you have to decide.
Are you all into the job search?
And then lean into that and whoare you at this stage in your
(14:46):
life?
What does that ideal assignmentlook like to you?
And or lean into theentrepreneurial journey.
What is that vision for thechange and transformation I want
to bring to the world?
What is the problem I solve?
Who are the people I serve andhow do I package, price and
message that and bring to theworld?
(15:06):
And you need to be all in inthat place.
If you're not passionate aboutentrepreneurship, it's probably
not for you.
It's not a fail safe if youcan't get a job.
Mary Killelea (15:19):
Right, that is such an excellent point because
I think, looking on your socialscrolls, everyone looks like
they're doing so fantastic intheir social entrepreneurship
which they don't show any of thestruggle or any of the real
data around finances and allthat.
That is such an important thingfor women to realize that
(15:42):
staying in corporate andtransitioning to a different job
is acceptable, right.
Deb Boulanger (15:48):
Yeah, absolutely, and for some of my clients,
that has meant a part-timeopportunity that brings in a
little financial relief whileyou're building your business on
the side, and so you're 50% inentrepreneurship.
But you're also being anentrepreneur in that you've got
a part-time job and yourpart-time client is actually the
(16:10):
investor who's helping youinvest and launch this business.
So it's really how you frame itin your mind.
It's not that you've sold out.
Many people feel shame about.
Oh you know, my finances aren'twhere I need them to be.
I'm feeling scared.
I'm feeling like I need to getsomething.
Well, get a half-time job, Geta part-time job if you can.
Mary Killelea (16:33):
What's one piece of career advice that you wish
you would have received whileyou were in corporate and then
now as a business owner?
Deb Boulanger (16:41):
Well, you know, I grew up in the corporate ranks
when there wasn't a whole lot ofsupport for women leaders.
Having that seat at the tablewas a struggle and there were
many young women who were in myoffice sitting in that chair
across from my desk, saying, deb, how do I do it, how do I get
to the next level in my career?
(17:01):
And part of it in corporate isthat it's not safe to stand out.
So how you succeed in corporateis by fitting in and I think if
I had my younger self, I wishsomeone had said Deb, here's
(17:22):
where your magic is.
I wish someone reflected back tome it didn't happen until I was
in my mid-50s and one of myleaders who I had a love-hate
relationship with, truthfully,but he said to me he said, deb,
you know, you have somethingreally special that most people
don't have.
And he was someone who I reallyrespected.
(17:44):
He was a former partner in abig consulting firm and he said
you have that ability torecognize patterns, knit
together solutions and bringthem to market.
And that is a rare skill.
And I thought little me with adegree in education from Lesley
University and you know, hearingfrom this guy who has a degree
(18:05):
in rocket science from MIT,saying I had something special.
I really wish people had beenmore generous with their
positive reflections as I wasgoing up the ladder.
But I think when you're tryingto bring change and you get
excited that sometimes you canthreaten people internally and
(18:26):
what they want to do is theywant to keep you in the box and
keep you small and keep youcontained.
You in the box and keep yousmall and keep you contained,
and I think bosses and mentorswho understand what your secret
special sauce skills are and letyou bring them to the table.
Those are the idealopportunities.
Mary Killelea (18:44):
Oh, 100%.
So, as a corporate woman or asan entrepreneur and designing
your own business, personalbranding comes into play.
What is your advice orphilosophy around personal
branding?
Deb Boulanger (18:59):
You know, I think entrepreneurship and corporate
leadership is about being athought leader and, I think,
really leaning in in these,these moments, and I think
sometimes we're on the treadmilland we don't take time to
really reflect on our own.
But what is that impact thatyou want to make and what do you
(19:19):
want to be known for?
Again, in the Launch Lab, ourvery first step is what is your
life experience?
What were those high points?
What were those low points?
If you're to leave a legacy andyou want to look back and be
really proud of the change thatyou've brought in your lifetime,
what do you want that to be?
I mean, for me, it's all aboutgiving women a choice of how
(19:41):
they earn a six-figure salary.
If corporate is your jam andyou thrive in that environment,
you go girl, get that seat atthat table, rise up that
corporate ladder, be a leader.
And if that's not you, if thatcrushes your spirit or if you
find that a toxic culture, thenit's entrepreneurship.
(20:07):
And so my whole mission is toclose the revenue gap with women
founders, because what we'velearned in these last few years
is that women, on average, areearning 30 cents to the dollar
compared to men inentrepreneurship, and that is
all about the psychology ofself-worth.
Mary Killelea (20:21):
Oh, that's fascinating.
So you're saying that womenhave a hard time pricing
themselves appropriately orcompetitively?
Deb Boulanger (20:29):
Yeah, and rightly so.
Right, so we live in a culturethat has conditioned us to be
second or worth less.
Right, so we are of a lesservalue.
We are the caregivers, we'reexpected to do different things.
We're feminine, we're emotional, but we're not seen as
high-powered decision makers orchange makers, and so that
(20:54):
unconscious conditioning getsembedded in our psyche.
And so, when it comes topricing your services, people
are thinking oh well, I want tobe affordable.
And it's not about beingaffordable because you'll starve
if you're not profitable.
It's about pricing yourservices based on the
transformation you deliver.
(21:15):
And that's where you know,there's a lot of unlearning that
needs to take place from aconditioning perspective, and a
lot of it happens in corporatetoo.
It's like we're not aware.
You can't read the label frominside the jar, right?
We're just conditioned tocomply.
And you know, I don't know ifyou ever had this experience,
(21:37):
but I remember sitting in acolleague's office and he
mentioned something about our30% bonus, and I said 30% bonus,
eh, mine's only 25%.
And I went to my boss and Isaid can you explain this to me?
And it was oh, I didn't knowthat.
We'll fix that right away.
Wow, you know.
(21:58):
So it happens and you know,unless you're willing to come to
terms with it and call it outand own your value and own your
worth.
Entrepreneurship is a roughroad.
Mary Killelea (22:09):
So let's talk about work-life balance, because
I think there's a fallacy thatif you work for yourself, it
looks like a 20-hour work week,and we both know that's not true
.
So what is your perspective onwork-life balance for both
corporate because obviously youwere very high in the ranks
there and how you did that, andthen also what it looks like now
(22:29):
as a business woman?
Deb Boulanger (22:32):
I think you know it's work-life blend right.
I think balance is a fallacy.
I think there are times in ourlives where you know we need
more downtime and there aretimes in our lives where we need
to push the needle a littleharder, a little further.
Everything from scratch yourtechnology, your marketing, your
messaging, your assets, yourmarketing assets, your product
(23:05):
assets then there's a lot ofinvestment that goes in that.
And also, even as you're moremature I mean my business is 11
years old now and we launchedthe Launch Lab eight years ago
it's not a set it and forget it.
You know the market's changing,you're changing, your clients'
needs are changing, so adaptingthere.
It's a long way to say that.
(23:29):
It's important to have a strongset of priorities.
And when you first get started,business development is 80% of
your focus and if you findyourself in the trap of service
delivery taking up 80% of yourtime, then once that engagement
is done or once that cohort iscomplete, you're going to find
yourself struggling because youhaven't consistently built up
(23:53):
that pipeline of new businesscoming in.
So it is a balance.
I'm not a fan of overwork.
I don't work all the time.
I happen to love starting at10am, wrapping up my day at 5pm,
and I love Saturdays andSundays.
So my partner volunteers at awildlife reserve and that gives
me Saturday and Sunday mornings,which are late morning, is my
(24:15):
most creative time.
And I'm writing, I'm doing mynewsletters, I'm doing planning,
visioning, playing with yourchild, gbt you know all of the
things.
So for me, that's my blend, andeveryone else has a blend.
If you're a mom and you've gotyoung kids and you're ending
your day at three o'clockbecause you got school pickup
and then you're working againfrom eight to 10, then that's
your blend.
(24:35):
So I think it's important tohave a blend.
But if it feels like you'reheading to burnout, that's when
we need to pause and take a lookat you know, how are you
organizing your time, how areyou prioritizing what's on your
plate, because we can onlyhandle about three or four
priorities at any given point intime.
Mary Killelea (24:56):
This is.
I love this conversation.
There's only a couple moretopics I want to touch on due to
time, but let's talk aboutnetworking, because I think a
thing that I've observed is alot of these people who are
surprised by the layoffs.
They haven't made theinvestments to build the
(25:16):
relationships or nurture, orthey only think their network
should be within, or they'veonly spent time within their
circle, within their office,within their network, within the
corporate setting.
What words of advice do youhave for women on networking?
Deb Boulanger (25:32):
Networking is super important and I didn't
realize it when I was incorporate, but it was the first
thing I dove into in myentrepreneurial space and
everything happens to meaccidentally because I just have
a nose for something and I trysomething out and then it works
and it's just like, oh, inretrospect, this is a great
strategy.
Let's rinse and repeat this.
So networking is important.
(25:53):
I happen to be a huge fan ofElevate Network.
I'll give it a little plug.
It's a great network ofprofessional women leaders.
It also has a great communityof women entrepreneurs.
In fact, I launched theLuminary Entrepreneurs
Roundtable in 2018.
We started in New York and thenCOVID hit and we brought it
globally, and I did that forthree and a half years.
That was our lifeline.
(26:14):
And we brought it globally andI did that for three and a half
years.
That was our lifeline.
You know your network.
You know you've heard it sayyour network is your net worth.
I know about that, but it isyour lifeline.
It's where you can go to thetable, be somewhat vulnerable in
a safe container with trustedrelationships and ask for
(26:35):
support and guidance, and Ithink that's not available to
women.
I think the coaching industryhas changed.
Now there's coaching availablefor people at lower levels.
When I was a group vicepresident and I asked for some
leadership coaching support, Iwas told that was only available
to the C-suite.
So you know, I think networksare super important.
(26:55):
As an entrepreneur, your networkis a great place to start and
then pretty soon I want you toget in front of the room,
because the best way to build upa mailing list, a portfolio of
connections, reliable referrals,is to be the leader.
And again, that was anaccidental realization, it just
(27:16):
happens to be.
I love to lead, I love to bethe leader.
And again, that was anaccidental realization, it just
happens to be.
I love to lead, I love to be incharge, and so I would start
things and I would startcommunities within these larger
networks.
And then I would realize a yearlater that, oh, wow, that was a
six-figure lead stream for me.
Maybe I should do more of that,maybe I should join a couple of
other communities.
So networking is essential.
Mary Killelea (27:37):
What does to be bolder mean to you?
Deb Boulanger (27:48):
To be bolder means that you are willing to
overcome your limiting beliefsand habits to do the thing that
feels really uncomfortable.
Your potential and the zone ofall possibilities exists outside
of that comfort zone andvisibility is currency and for
many women leaders who arecomfortable inside the confines
of corporate that level ofvisibility whether it's speaking
(28:08):
on stages, being on videothere's a level of discomfort
there that you can't afford.
Mary Killelea (28:15):
As we wrap up, do you have any closing thoughts
for our listeners?
Deb Boulanger (28:20):
Lean into the intuition.
We have a saying in my circlethat you trust the niggle.
The niggle is that little thinginside that's like calling you
forward and that you question.
I remember when I first got thecalling to launch my business,
I was thinking are you crazy?
Do you know how much money Imake?
You're you're asking me to likegive it all up.
So it was a little dialoguethat I was having back and forth
(28:43):
with my higher self, trust andniggle.
And also, when it comes tolaunching your business, really
lean into that transformationthat you deliver.
People don't buy services.
People don't buy features.
People buy the transformationthat you deliver.
People don't buy services.
People don't buy features.
People buy the transformationthat you're delivering and so
price your services based on thevalue of that transformation.
(29:05):
And if you're not sure how, wehave some free resources on our
website that'll help you getthere.
Mary Killelea (29:11):
And great place to end.
What is your website?
It's lifeaftercorporatecom.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
It is just a pleasure to talkwith you.
Deb Boulanger (29:22):
Thank you so much , Mary.
This was such a funconversation.
Mary Killelea (29:29):
Thanks for listening to the episode today.
It was really fun chatting withmy guest.
If you liked our show, pleaselike it and share it with your
friends.
Guest.
If you liked our show, pleaselike it and share it with your
friends.
If you want to learn what we'reup to, please go check out our
website at 2BBouldercom.
That's the number two, little bbouldercom.
Hi there, my name is Mary Kiloalea.
Welcome to the To Be Bolderpodcast providing career
insights for the next generationof women in business and tech.
To Be Bolder was created out ofmy love for technology and
marketing, my desire to bringtogether like-minded women and
my hope to be a great role modeland source of inspiration for
my two girls and other youngwomen like you, encouraging you
(00:22):
guys to show up and to be bolderand to know that anything you
guys dream of it's totallypossible.
So sit back, relax and enjoythe conversation.
Hey there, today we're going totalk about a hot topic for many
women that are transitioningfrom corporate leadership to
successful entrepreneurship withmy guest today, deb Boulanger.
(00:44):
Deb is an inspiring businessmentor, thought leader and
speaker who has dedicated hercareer to helping high-achieving
women confidently step intoentrepreneurship.
As a CEO of Life AfterCorporate and the host of the
Life After Corporate podcast,deb is a powerhouse when it
comes to guiding women throughthe often daunting shift from a
(01:05):
corporate career to a thrivingcoaching or consulting business.
With over 25 years of corporateleadership experience, managing
multi-million dollar businesslines, deb knows firsthand what
it takes to navigate careertransitions, build sustainable
businesses and break throughmindset blocks that hold so many
women back businesses andbreakthrough mindset blocks that
(01:27):
hold so many women back.
Her no-nonsense strategicapproach has helped countless
women turn their expertise intoprofitable businesses, and today
she's here to share her wisdomwith all of us, and I'm thrilled
to have her here.
Thank you so much for beinghere, deb.
Deb Boulanger (01:38):
Mary, it's my pleasure.
I'm excited for theconversation.
Mary Killelea (01:41):
Okay.
So we had a chance to talk acouple other day, a couple times
the other day, and I was like,okay, this woman and I have just
such good synergy together soI'm excited.
Tell everyone kind of yourjourney in the corporate world
so they have that backgroundunderstanding of the role that
you had and how you got there.
Deb Boulanger (02:00):
Yeah.
So I mean, my beginning wasreally as an educator.
I have a degree in elementaryschool education and after
teaching in the 80s for fouryears and getting such poor pay
that I was waitressing fournights a week, I decided to get
a job in business and I startedin sales.
(02:20):
And because I'm a problemsolver and pattern identifier, I
would always spot thesechallenges that we were having
because, as a really fastgrowing startup, I worked for
Gartner back in the day and Iwould then say, hey, you know,
we have this challenge and I'dlike to go solve it, and the
(02:41):
leaders in the company alwayssaid yes, so so I went from
sales to marketingcommunications, hit my first
glass ceiling, left for sevenyears, came back as a VP of
product development and kind of,the rest is history from there.
My pattern recognition served mewell in market research and
product development and then Iwas developing all and testing
(03:03):
all of these concepts with thesebusiness units, only to see
these ideas really fly off theshelf as new programs that the
company was launching.
And that's when I said, hey, Iwant to own one of these.
And when I decided that mycorporate career was complete
there was nowhere else.
I wanted to go complete.
(03:27):
There was nowhere else I wantedto go.
I decided well, I know how todo this.
If I can do it for the company,I can do it for myself.
And lo and behold, I launchedmy own business, and it was so
much harder than I thought.
Mary Killelea (03:35):
So you mentioned it was harder than you thought.
Let's talk about some of thelessons that you learned.
Deb Boulanger (03:41):
So getting the inspiration to launch my
business was truly the easy part.
The harder part of it all wasdialing in.
Who am I now?
And it's such a huge identityshift when you're used to having
your calendar set up for you.
You get into the office ateight o'clock in the morning and
(04:05):
you have about a half hour ofgetting your act together and
then, boom, your day is takenoff like your day is
predetermined for you, and soare your goals, and so so are
your expectations.
And now, suddenly, you findyourself sitting at your desk
with a lot of ideas, not surewhere to focus first, and no
(04:26):
real discipline around yourcalendar because the priorities
haven't been established yet.
And so, for me, I started mybusiness not as a business
launch and growth expert.
I started my business as a lifereinvention coach, because
that's what I was going throughat that point in time, and so I
(04:48):
was newly minted, newcertification.
I felt like the newbie on theblock, not completely sure of
what I was doing or how I wasgoing to get clients.
Those first couple of years isthat, when we make this
transition from corporate leaderto business owner, it's not
(05:09):
your latest credential thatyou're bringing to the market.
It's the complete compilationof your lifetime of experience,
including other things that youdid before you even got to
corporate.
So I mentioned teaching andteaching other people.
When I discover a path or Ihave a framework or a template,
(05:30):
my next desire is who can Iteach this to so that they can
have this experience too?
So it was everything.
It was the teaching, it was thepersonal development that I had
gone through and breakingthrough psychological barriers.
It was the frameworks that Ihad developed when I was at
Gartner on how to launch things,how to do market research, how
to test the market and bringhigh demand services that people
(05:54):
wanted to sell.
People wanted to buy, that wereeasy to sell.
Mary Killelea (05:58):
Everything that you just said resonates so
strongly with me because I amgoing through that transition
right now, so I'm like checkcheck, check.
And I'm like okay, I got tobook an appointment.
What do you tell the women whobecause there's so many women
that work for corporate andtheir title is their identity
(06:19):
how do you help them detach fromthat?
I mean, you talk about lookingat the full picture, but I know
there's so much more to it thanthat.
Deb Boulanger (06:29):
Yeah, and it's more of how do they integrate
with that and not detach from it.
So when we are in the corporateworld and when we have achieved
great things and for some ofthem they always had that ideal
like I want to be in the C-suiteor I want to be a senior
executive For me I didn't reallyhave that direction.
(06:53):
All I knew was I love to solveproblems and I like to achieve
things and I like to recognition.
So that was, and I was slightlyinsecure.
So that's a perfect recipe forcorporate success.
So that was, and I was slightlyinsecure.
So that's a perfect recipe forcorporate success.
Right, you work hard to get therecognition, you happen to be
smart, but you don't know it allof those things and so you
(07:16):
don't leave that achievementbehind.
I am proud of the work that Idid when I was in corporate.
I am proud of the level ofsuccess that I achieved did when
I was in corporate.
I am proud of the level ofsuccess that I achieved.
I never imagined that thatwould be my path when I was
getting my degree in education.
So I think you don't throw thataway.
It's just that you add, youround it out, you round it out
(07:39):
with bigger leaps and movingthrough imposter syndrome in a
new way, taking bigger risks.
So in some ways, yes, you'releaving the title behind and you
are a beginner, which is reallyhard for accomplished women to
tackle.
(07:59):
It's like wait a minute, I kneweverything, I had it locked and
loaded, I knew how to manageinternal politics, I knew how to
be successful and now, suddenly, here I am and I don't have a
clue.
I think the hardest piece isnot letting go of the title, but
to embrace the beginner's mindof oh, I do need to learn new
(08:20):
things.
I am new to this and it feels alittle uncertain and insecure.
And how do you?
Mary Killelea (08:26):
stay resilient during that moment of, you know,
stepping off the ledge andbeing uncomfortable, because I
know there is growth in that.
I mean, everyone says it and Ibelieve in it, but resilience is
required.
Deb Boulanger (08:42):
Yes, and now more than ever.
I mean, we're recording thispodcast at a very strange time
in history and a verychallenging time for women
everywhere, and so, whetheryou're still in corporate or
you're making this leap,resilience is the number one
attribute that you need toembody, and for me, it was a
(09:03):
journey of faith, because I feltcalled to do this.
It wasn't an idea that Iincubated in a vacuum.
It was something that I feltcalled to help other women like.
Oh wow, I kind of created thislevel of awareness about this
stage of life I am in right nowand how my needs have changed,
(09:24):
my desires have changed and whatI want in my life has changed.
I can share this with otherpeople, and so it came from a
desire to share and to helpothers along the way, and I have
felt that responsibility.
But it is a calling, and in ourcorporate swag we have
resilience revolutionary, youknow printed on the sleeves of
(09:46):
our sweatshirts, becauseresilience is is key.
Mary Killelea (09:49):
Yeah absolutely so.
Let's talk about life aftercorporate um appropriate name.
Give us an overview of yourcompany, who you serve, the
things that you offer and andwe'll start there- yeah, when I
first started it, I tookeverybody.
Deb Boulanger (10:06):
It's like if you want to launch a business, I can
help you, as long as it's aservice-based business.
And what I learned along theway is the way I think, the way
I operate and where I've comefrom, how I speak and how fast I
move resonates most stronglywith other corporate women.
So I work only with corporatewomen leaders.
When I first got started, mostof them were in their 50s, some
(10:30):
in their 60s.
Now I'm finding younger andyounger leaders coming to the
entrepreneurship table in theirearly 40s or some in their late
30s.
And it doesn't matter where youare in your corporate journey.
It matters that you've had thatcorporate experience, because
you'll resonate with how I teach, how we operate inside our
(10:51):
programs, which are the LaunchLab if you're just getting
started, and the ReliableRevenue Mastermind if you're
looking to scale up revenues tomid-six figures.
And so I learned early on andit's a journey everyone takes
because you'll kiss some frogsbefore you find your ideal
clients, but that is also a keypart of the journey.
Mary Killelea (11:13):
So, like I said before, I'm kind of your ideal
client in the sense that I'mtrying to get clarity.
How do you help women getclarity when there's fear of
leaving money on the table orthey see themselves being good
at multiple things?
How do you work someone to feelsecure in their clarity choice?
Deb Boulanger (11:36):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Clarity is the very first stepand, like you just voiced,
there's a lot of things going onin your mind, and so the first
step is learning how to masterwhat's going on in your mind,
and so the first step islearning how to master what's
going on in your mind Literally.
It's not a business skill.
It's about let's get clear onwhat that internal talk track is
.
The very first thing that youdo in the launch lab is identify
(11:59):
your self-sabotage pattern,because if anything's going to
take you down, let's call it outout front so that we're aware
of it.
Right, and a lot of that ishappening right now, and it
happens to women before theytake the leap, like what happens
if I'm not successful?
What happens?
I may have had conversationswith women who said I'm so
afraid to leave my corporate job, I don't want to be homeless, I
(12:20):
don't want to live in a boxunder a bridge.
Well, that's not likely tohappen.
That's a fear-based response.
So, in order for you to takepowerful action, we need to get
fear in its place and you needto take control.
That's such good advice.
Mary Killelea (12:36):
What, financially , do you advise someone?
There's obviously somesituations where you get
severance, which is wonderful, Ithink, because I'm just not
about entitlement, so I thinkthings like that are truly gifts
.
I guess, what's yourrecommendation for someone
listening?
Deb Boulanger (12:55):
Yeah, and it varies.
You know there's no one solidpath to replacing your corporate
salary.
I would say make sure you haveat least a cushion of a year.
And what most people don'trealize is, once you leave your
corporate job, your expenses godown Right.
So you're not buying theclothes, you're not spending
(13:16):
money on the gas, there's a lotof expenses you don't have, and
there's also a lot of habitsthat we have when we have a big
salary we feel entitled to.
You know, buy the designer bag,like there's no need for that
stuff right now, and so yourexpenses go down.
So the money you have tends tostretch longer.
If you can also have anotherfinancial cushion savings that
(13:39):
you've set aside, a home equityline of credit, a partner who's
willing to foot the bills whileyou ramp up your business those
are all great things to have inplace until you feel like you
have a solid footing and you'vegot this machine of sales and
marketing going, at least forthe time being, because
everything changes, everythingshifts.
(13:59):
We want to be current to what'shappening right now, but you do
need that cushion and it takesa year or two to replace a
corporate salary, honestly,depending on how much money you
were making.
Mary Killelea (14:09):
What do you tell the women who are recently kind
of shell-shocked because theywere laid off and did not see it
coming?
What I find is people get stuckin that shell-shocked mode way
too long.
Deb Boulanger (14:23):
Yeah.
And then there's this well,maybe I'll hang out my shingle,
maybe I should go look foranother job.
And there's this point ofvacillation and indecision, and
what I always say is that theuniverse can't deliver on a
split desire.
It's you you have to decide.
Are you all into the job search?
And then lean into that and whoare you at this stage in your
(14:46):
life?
What does that ideal assignmentlook like to you?
And or lean into theentrepreneurial journey.
What is that vision for thechange and transformation I want
to bring to the world?
What is the problem I solve?
Who are the people I serve andhow do I package, price and
message that and bring to theworld?
(15:06):
And you need to be all in inthat place.
If you're not passionate aboutentrepreneurship, it's probably
not for you.
It's not a fail safe if youcan't get a job.
Mary Killelea (15:19):
Right, that is such an excellent point because
I think, looking on your socialscrolls, everyone looks like
they're doing so fantastic intheir social entrepreneurship
which they don't show any of thestruggle or any of the real
data around finances and allthat.
That is such an important thingfor women to realize that
(15:42):
staying in corporate andtransitioning to a different job
is acceptable, right.
Deb Boulanger (15:48):
Yeah, absolutely, and for some of my clients,
that has meant a part-timeopportunity that brings in a
little financial relief whileyou're building your business on
the side, and so you're 50% inentrepreneurship.
But you're also being anentrepreneur in that you've got
a part-time job and yourpart-time client is actually the
(16:10):
investor who's helping youinvest and launch this business.
So it's really how you frame itin your mind.
It's not that you've sold out.
Many people feel shame about.
Oh you know, my finances aren'twhere I need them to be.
I'm feeling scared.
I'm feeling like I need to getsomething.
Well, get a half-time job, Geta part-time job if you can.
Mary Killelea (16:33):
What's one piece of career advice that you wish
you would have received whileyou were in corporate and then
now as a business owner?
Deb Boulanger (16:41):
Well, you know, I grew up in the corporate ranks
when there wasn't a whole lot ofsupport for women leaders.
Having that seat at the tablewas a struggle and there were
many young women who were in myoffice sitting in that chair
across from my desk, saying, deb, how do I do it, how do I get
to the next level in my career?
(17:01):
And part of it in corporate isthat it's not safe to stand out.
So how you succeed in corporateis by fitting in and I think if
I had my younger self, I wishsomeone had said Deb, here's
(17:22):
where your magic is.
I wish someone reflected back tome it didn't happen until I was
in my mid-50s and one of myleaders who I had a love-hate
relationship with, truthfully,but he said to me he said, deb,
you know, you have somethingreally special that most people
don't have.
And he was someone who I reallyrespected.
(17:44):
He was a former partner in abig consulting firm and he said
you have that ability torecognize patterns, knit
together solutions and bringthem to market.
And that is a rare skill.
And I thought little me with adegree in education from Lesley
University and you know, hearingfrom this guy who has a degree
(18:05):
in rocket science from MIT,saying I had something special.
I really wish people had beenmore generous with their
positive reflections as I wasgoing up the ladder.
But I think when you're tryingto bring change and you get
excited that sometimes you canthreaten people internally and
(18:26):
what they want to do is theywant to keep you in the box and
keep you small and keep youcontained.
You in the box and keep yousmall and keep you contained,
and I think bosses and mentorswho understand what your secret
special sauce skills are and letyou bring them to the table.
Those are the idealopportunities.
Mary Killelea (18:44):
Oh, 100%.
So, as a corporate woman or asan entrepreneur and designing
your own business, personalbranding comes into play.
What is your advice orphilosophy around personal
branding?
Deb Boulanger (18:59):
You know, I think entrepreneurship and corporate
leadership is about being athought leader and, I think,
really leaning in in these,these moments, and I think
sometimes we're on the treadmilland we don't take time to
really reflect on our own.
But what is that impact thatyou want to make and what do you
(19:19):
want to be known for?
Again, in the Launch Lab, ourvery first step is what is your
life experience?
What were those high points?
What were those low points?
If you're to leave a legacy andyou want to look back and be
really proud of the change thatyou've brought in your lifetime,
what do you want that to be?
I mean, for me, it's all aboutgiving women a choice of how
(19:41):
they earn a six-figure salary.
If corporate is your jam andyou thrive in that environment,
you go girl, get that seat atthat table, rise up that
corporate ladder, be a leader.
And if that's not you, if thatcrushes your spirit or if you
find that a toxic culture, thenit's entrepreneurship.
(20:07):
And so my whole mission is toclose the revenue gap with women
founders, because what we'velearned in these last few years
is that women, on average, areearning 30 cents to the dollar
compared to men inentrepreneurship, and that is
all about the psychology ofself-worth.
Mary Killelea (20:21):
Oh, that's fascinating.
So you're saying that womenhave a hard time pricing
themselves appropriately orcompetitively?
Deb Boulanger (20:29):
Yeah, and rightly so.
Right, so we live in a culturethat has conditioned us to be
second or worth less.
Right, so we are of a lesservalue.
We are the caregivers, we'reexpected to do different things.
We're feminine, we're emotional, but we're not seen as
high-powered decision makers orchange makers, and so that
(20:54):
unconscious conditioning getsembedded in our psyche.
And so, when it comes topricing your services, people
are thinking oh well, I want tobe affordable.
And it's not about beingaffordable because you'll starve
if you're not profitable.
It's about pricing yourservices based on the
transformation you deliver.
(21:15):
And that's where you know,there's a lot of unlearning that
needs to take place from aconditioning perspective, and a
lot of it happens in corporatetoo.
It's like we're not aware.
You can't read the label frominside the jar, right?
We're just conditioned tocomply.
And you know, I don't know ifyou ever had this experience,
(21:37):
but I remember sitting in acolleague's office and he
mentioned something about our30% bonus, and I said 30% bonus,
eh, mine's only 25%.
And I went to my boss and Isaid can you explain this to me?
And it was oh, I didn't knowthat.
We'll fix that right away.
Wow, you know.
(21:58):
So it happens and you know,unless you're willing to come to
terms with it and call it outand own your value and own your
worth.
Entrepreneurship is a roughroad.
Mary Killelea (22:09):
So let's talk about work-life balance, because
I think there's a fallacy thatif you work for yourself, it
looks like a 20-hour work week,and we both know that's not true
.
So what is your perspective onwork-life balance for both
corporate because obviously youwere very high in the ranks
there and how you did that, andthen also what it looks like now
(22:29):
as a business woman?
Deb Boulanger (22:32):
I think you know it's work-life blend right.
I think balance is a fallacy.
I think there are times in ourlives where you know we need
more downtime and there aretimes in our lives where we need
to push the needle a littleharder, a little further.
Everything from scratch yourtechnology, your marketing, your
messaging, your assets, yourmarketing assets, your product
(23:05):
assets then there's a lot ofinvestment that goes in that.
And also, even as you're moremature I mean my business is 11
years old now and we launchedthe Launch Lab eight years ago
it's not a set it and forget it.
You know the market's changing,you're changing, your clients'
needs are changing, so adaptingthere.
It's a long way to say that.
(23:29):
It's important to have a strongset of priorities.
And when you first get started,business development is 80% of
your focus and if you findyourself in the trap of service
delivery taking up 80% of yourtime, then once that engagement
is done or once that cohort iscomplete, you're going to find
yourself struggling because youhaven't consistently built up
(23:53):
that pipeline of new businesscoming in.
So it is a balance.
I'm not a fan of overwork.
I don't work all the time.
I happen to love starting at10am, wrapping up my day at 5pm,
and I love Saturdays andSundays.
So my partner volunteers at awildlife reserve and that gives
me Saturday and Sunday mornings,which are late morning, is my
(24:15):
most creative time.
And I'm writing, I'm doing mynewsletters, I'm doing planning,
visioning, playing with yourchild, gbt you know all of the
things.
So for me, that's my blend, andeveryone else has a blend.
If you're a mom and you've gotyoung kids and you're ending
your day at three o'clockbecause you got school pickup
and then you're working againfrom eight to 10, then that's
your blend.
(24:35):
So I think it's important tohave a blend.
But if it feels like you'reheading to burnout, that's when
we need to pause and take a lookat you know, how are you
organizing your time, how areyou prioritizing what's on your
plate, because we can onlyhandle about three or four
priorities at any given point intime.
Mary Killelea (24:56):
This is.
I love this conversation.
There's only a couple moretopics I want to touch on due to
time, but let's talk aboutnetworking, because I think a
thing that I've observed is alot of these people who are
surprised by the layoffs.
They haven't made theinvestments to build the
(25:16):
relationships or nurture, orthey only think their network
should be within, or they'veonly spent time within their
circle, within their office,within their network, within the
corporate setting.
What words of advice do youhave for women on networking?
Deb Boulanger (25:32):
Networking is super important and I didn't
realize it when I was incorporate, but it was the first
thing I dove into in myentrepreneurial space and
everything happens to meaccidentally because I just have
a nose for something and I trysomething out and then it works
and it's just like, oh, inretrospect, this is a great
strategy.
Let's rinse and repeat this.
So networking is important.
(25:53):
I happen to be a huge fan ofElevate Network.
I'll give it a little plug.
It's a great network ofprofessional women leaders.
It also has a great communityof women entrepreneurs.
In fact, I launched theLuminary Entrepreneurs
Roundtable in 2018.
We started in New York and thenCOVID hit and we brought it
globally, and I did that forthree and a half years.
That was our lifeline.
(26:14):
And we brought it globally andI did that for three and a half
years.
That was our lifeline.
You know your network.
You know you've heard it sayyour network is your net worth.
I know about that, but it isyour lifeline.
It's where you can go to thetable, be somewhat vulnerable in
a safe container with trustedrelationships and ask for
(26:35):
support and guidance, and Ithink that's not available to
women.
I think the coaching industryhas changed.
Now there's coaching availablefor people at lower levels.
When I was a group vicepresident and I asked for some
leadership coaching support, Iwas told that was only available
to the C-suite.
So you know, I think networksare super important.
(26:55):
As an entrepreneur, your networkis a great place to start and
then pretty soon I want you toget in front of the room,
because the best way to build upa mailing list, a portfolio of
connections, reliable referrals,is to be the leader.
And again, that was anaccidental realization, it just
(27:16):
happens to be.
I love to lead, I love to bethe leader.
And again, that was anaccidental realization, it just
happens to be.
I love to lead, I love to be incharge, and so I would start
things and I would startcommunities within these larger
networks.
And then I would realize a yearlater that, oh, wow, that was a
six-figure lead stream for me.
Maybe I should do more of that,maybe I should join a couple of
other communities.
So networking is essential.
Mary Killelea (27:37):
What does to be bolder mean to you?
Deb Boulanger (27:48):
To be bolder means that you are willing to
overcome your limiting beliefsand habits to do the thing that
feels really uncomfortable.
Your potential and the zone ofall possibilities exists outside
of that comfort zone andvisibility is currency and for
many women leaders who arecomfortable inside the confines
of corporate that level ofvisibility whether it's speaking
(28:08):
on stages, being on videothere's a level of discomfort
there that you can't afford.
Mary Killelea (28:15):
As we wrap up, do you have any closing thoughts
for our listeners?
Deb Boulanger (28:20):
Lean into the intuition.
We have a saying in my circlethat you trust the niggle.
The niggle is that little thinginside that's like calling you
forward and that you question.
I remember when I first got thecalling to launch my business,
I was thinking are you crazy?
Do you know how much money Imake?
You're you're asking me to likegive it all up.
So it was a little dialoguethat I was having back and forth
(28:43):
with my higher self, trust andniggle.
And also, when it comes tolaunching your business, really
lean into that transformationthat you deliver.
People don't buy services.
People don't buy features.
People buy the transformationthat you deliver.
People don't buy services.
People don't buy features.
People buy the transformationthat you're delivering and so
price your services based on thevalue of that transformation.
(29:05):
And if you're not sure how, wehave some free resources on our
website that'll help you getthere.
Mary Killelea (29:11):
And great place to end.
What is your website?
It's lifeaftercorporatecom.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
It is just a pleasure to talkwith you.
Deb Boulanger (29:22):
Thank you so much , Mary.
This was such a funconversation.
Mary Killelea (29:29):
Thanks for listening to the episode today.
It was really fun chatting withmy guest.
If you liked our show, pleaselike it and share it with your
friends.
Guest.
If you liked our show, pleaselike it and share it with your
friends.
If you want to learn what we'reup to, please go check out our
website at 2BBouldercom.
That's the number two, little bbouldercom.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.