October 13, 2025 • 45 mins
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Podcast Show Notes
Episode Title: Understanding Kratom: Myths, Facts, and Personal Journeys
Host: Bobbie Malatesta
Guest: Jordan Richard
Overview:
In this episode, Jordan Richard, a seasoned expert in the Kratom industry, shares his insights and personal journey with Kratom. The discussion delves into the complexities of Kratom use, its benefits, misconceptions, and the challenges faced by the industry.
Key Discussions:
- Introduction to Kratom:
- Jordan introduces himself and his background, including his past struggles with heroin addiction and how Kratom played a role in his recovery.
- Misconceptions and Facts:
- The episode addresses common misconceptions about Kratom, emphasizing the difference between Kratom and other substances like 7-hydroxy, which can cause respiratory depression.
- Jordan discusses the importance of understanding that correlation does not imply causation, especially in cases labeled as Kratom-related deaths.
- Kratom's Role in Addiction Recovery:
- Jordan shares personal anecdotes and stories of others who have found Kratom to be a life-saving alternative to opioids.
- Challenges in the Kratom Industry:
- The episode highlights the challenges faced by the Kratom industry, including public perception and regulatory hurdles.
- Resources and Advocacy:
- Jordan recommends resources such as the American Kratom Association and Kratomanswers.org for reliable information.
- He also mentions his book, "The Truth About Kratom: Life Saving Plant or Botanical Menace," as a comprehensive guide on the subject.
- Personal Reflections and Future Directions:
- The conversation concludes with Jordan reflecting on the future of Kratom and its potential to help others, emphasizing the need for proper education and advocacy.
Takeaways:
- Kratom can be a beneficial tool for those struggling with addiction, but it is crucial to approach it with informed caution.
- Misunderstandings and misinformation about Kratom are prevalent, and it's important to rely on credible sources for information.
- Advocacy and education are key to changing public perception and ensuring the safe use of Kratom.
Resources Mentioned:
- American Kratom Association
- Kratomanswers.org
- "The Truth About Kratom: Life Saving Plant or Botanical Menace" by Jordan Richard
Contact Information:
- Tiktok- Kr8tomninja
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bobbie Malatesta (00:29):
My name is Jordan Richard.
I've been in the creativeindustry, a really bad uh heroin
addict.
For parents did everything theythey could to try to help me.
Nothing worked.
My mom even went back to schoolto become a drug and alcohol
counselor to try to help me.
Just went through a lot ofstuff growing up that kids
really shouldn't do.
I had an eating disorder at avery young age, went through
(00:49):
sexual abuse, all that stuffthat led me to use drugs like
late late later in life.
I was actually gonna be aprofessional pool player, and
that's like all I did.
I traveled the country as akid, but I always had this demon
surrounding me.
And pool is a very mental game,so I was looking for anything
to align my myself and my ownself around high school.
(01:11):
And I was like, oh my gosh, Ican talk to girls, I can play
pool better, I can do everythingthat that I want.
And you know, that just kept prprogressing.
And then by the time I was 20,I was doing heroin and all that
stuff.
And it was funny because I wasworking with special needs kids
full-time, but I'd be smokingwith smoking heroin in the
parking lot.
But I would get like employeeof the month.
I was I was like really good atlike hiding that stuff.
(01:33):
And finally, there were twoincidents that happened.
I overdosed twice in one week,and then I got involved in a low
speed chase with the cops.
Like I used my blinker and allthat kind of stuff.
I never went over 35, but I wasavoiding police as the gang
task force unit.
Finally got pulled over, eightguns on me, you know, my
passengers reaching under theseat.
(01:53):
Like I was okay, we're gonnaget shot.
So I'm in the back of the copcar, and I was just like
praying, like, God, if you getme out of this, I'll change my
life.
Yeah.
45 minutes later, the cop justlets me go.
He goes, Mr.
Richard, this is your secondchance after I led them on this,
you know, low speed chase.
And they they're like, I don'tknow, like you obeyed our
commands.
Here's your second chance,basically.
(02:15):
And then I overdosed again.
I didn't keep my promise.
And I remember hearing myparents cry in the hospital, and
I was like, okay, I have tochange.
I have to change.
So I got home and Googlednatural ways to beat addiction,
and Kratom kept popping up.
Went to the smoke shops, it didabsolutely nothing for me.
And then I was like, Well, Iused to buy a bunch of stuff on
(02:36):
Craigslist, so I'll go onCraigslist.
And I looked on Craigslist andI saw a guy selling it up in the
mountains, which was about anhour and a half from where I
lived.
And I drove up there, and thatmeeting changed my life forever.
Within 45 minutes of me tryingit, I was crying.
I I like I knew this actuallywas gonna work for me.
(02:57):
Fast forward, you know, 12years later, that guy I met on
Craigslist is is my businesspartner, the one that saved my
life.
He was a groomsman in mywedding, he's one of my best
friends, and we opened our shop,I think like eight or nine
years ago, a long time ago.
And then I met no, like sixyears ago, and then I met my
wife.
She owned a one of thebuildings right next to me.
(03:18):
We got married and startedhaving kids, and here I am now.
So, but I I would considermyself like very involved within
the Kratom world, definitely.
Jordan (03:30):
So it changed your life.
So that's what led you on thisjourney.
Was there so part in myignorance because I didn't even
know what Kratom was until Iopened my store, and this the
topic started coming up?
And I was scared in thebeginning.
I didn't even want to sellkava, and kava's nothing
compared to Kratom, at least nowhow I view it.
(03:50):
So was 7-0 and the garbage andthe stuff around, even when you
started your journey.
Bobbie Malatesta (03:58):
No, the when I first started the journey,
there was nothing but like purepure leaf powder.
Basically, there might havebeen a few like random extracts,
but the 95% of what was beingsold was just the pure powder.
7 hydroxy is a very, very newconcept, I'd say within the last
few years, but it's not whatKratom truly is.
(04:19):
And so many people are gettingintroduced to Kratom that way,
and people are calling itKratom.
Like 7 hydroxy is not Kratom,it's it's basically uh it's a
synthetic opioid if we're gonnabe honest.
Like it's it's not what they'retelling people that that it is.
Like I I traveled the country,I talked to all the Kratom
experts, you know, people fromNational Institute of Drug
(04:42):
Abuse, the researchers fromUniversity of Florida, Dr.
Chris McCurdy's been givenmillions of dollars by NIDA to
study Kratom, and they're theones that sound the alarm the
most.
Like they they've done ratstudies where seven hydroxy can
cause respiratory depression,but normal kratom can't.
And that's a huge distinction.
That that's one of the mainreasons why I support Kratom as
(05:04):
much as it does.
Like, I don't people are alwayslike, Oh, you traded one
diction for for another.
But I support stability, notjust sobriety is so important
because I tried total sobrietyand it led me back to what I was
doing over and over and overagain.
Like, people people don't seemto grasp that.
(05:26):
But there's an advocate namedMisty Brown who I think said it
best that Kratom is an amazingway out of addiction, seven
hydroxy can put you right backin addiction.
And so many people that I getmessages from TikTok, they're
like, I just thought it wasKratom.
I was doing amazing on Kratomfor years, and the smoke shop
just told me it was Kratom, butbetter.
And now I lost my house, I lostmy marriage.
(05:48):
These aren't traits wetypically associate with Kratom.
Most people, Dr.
Jack Henningfield from JohnHopkins School of Medicine, he
was saying that, you know, mostpeople say I take Kratom because
it gave me my life back insteadof like seven hydroxy, where
they're saying I'm gettingeverything taken away from me.
Those are two very, verydifferent things, all under the
(06:10):
same guise of Kratom.
I mean, they're selling sevenhydroxy and kratom extracts
right next to five-hour energydrinks.
You know, these are vastlydifferent prop products than
Kratom.
So it's interesting, it'sscary.
Jordan (06:24):
Well, Jordan, I'll tell you.
When I reached out to you lastweek, well, I reached out to you
out of curiosity, but then wefound out that one of my
friends, the husband was inrecovery for heroin addiction.
Has been going out to the trunkand he was buying a brand.
And and before she even toldme, when she told me it was
capsules, I was like, it's 7-0.
(06:45):
But I went to the smoke shopwith her and I researched it
throughout the day.
And I asked both the smoke shopemployees, I said, So what are
people buying this for?
What is this for?
Neither one of them knew andthey're selling it.
Yeah, and I was like, Yeah,this is fucked up.
And uh it is and that's whatcreated the urgency.
(07:07):
So thank you for making thishappen.
So, can you talk about howKratom like you said that you
were crying?
I don't know if that was, Iwould just love some
clarification.
Was it the Kratom activation orwas it the relief of like, oh,
I found something that will helpme?
Like, what did that look like?
And then how does Kratominteract in your body?
Bobbie Malatesta (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
So I started crying because Ifelt hopeful over.
I mean, so many years just hitme all at once.
Like, what have I been doing?
I've been stealing myself againfor the first time in so many
years.
And that was a long, long timesince I felt like myself.
Like, oh my gosh, I'm back, I'mback to me.
And that was the craziestthing.
So Kratom works in manydifferent ways in in your brain.
(07:53):
It works on your serotinergic,dopaminergic, androgenergic, and
your adenosine receptor.
So there's many differentpathways that Kratom is
affecting all at once thattraditional opioids don't do.
Like a lot of people will say,oh, Kratom's an opioid, but
opioids don't activate thosepathways.
They're going to opioidreceptors.
And if I go back to 700H realquick, the reason why people are
(08:18):
having such trouble with 7OHand you're they're going back to
addictive behaviors because 7OHis strictly targeting opioid
receptors and it's binding tothe opioid receptor so tightly
and so strongly, like it's likebetween 60 and 70 times stronger
the binding affinity thannormal kratom powder.
So kratom binds to opioidreceptors, but it does so very,
(08:41):
very gently.
It like kind of just hugs thereceptors.
It it it it um it's enough thatit can stop withdrawal or it
can stop these certain sort ofbehaviors, but it doesn't
penetrate the receptor sostrongly.
Like it's the differencebetween a hug and a chokehold,
is the best way I can explain itfor people to understand.
(09:02):
And but there's many differentpathways in in the brain that
Kratom is is activating and canhelp.
That's why so many people canit can give people um energy or
mental clarity, or it can getpeople off of heroin.
It's very, very versatile plantfor sure.
I don't recommend Kratom foreveryone, but for the people
that need it, it can beeverything.
Jordan (09:23):
So you said, and I'm sorry, we got a little broken
up.
So if I have you repeatyourself, and some of the
language you just used was newto me.
So you said, I thought I heardyou say like dopamareceptor,
like dopamine.
Is that what you mean?
And say when you were listingthe receptor.
Bobbie Malatesta (09:41):
So basically, what what I was saying is that
Kratum affects many differentparts of the brain that
traditional opioids don't do.
Kratum gently binds to muteopioid receptors, like it gently
hugs it, while traditionalopioids do like a chokehold,
basically, and that's what7-hydroxy is doing.
But kratom also affects yourserotonergic, your dopaminergic,
(10:05):
angi-ergic, and your adenosinereceptors, which traditional
opioids don't do.
That's why Kratom has suchbalance and nuance um effects,
because instead of targeting onepart of the brain so much, it's
kind of spread out, and that'swhy a lot of people can say, Oh,
I can I feel normal again, likeI'm not like super high, I'm
(10:26):
not anything like that.
It's it it just it elevatesyour mood to a point where you
can have a better, more positiveoutlook on life.
Jordan (10:36):
Okay, thank you.
That that helps.
So, how do people know what isand and and if anyone all right,
I guess I gotta back up alittle.
Bobbie Malatesta (10:48):
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Jordan (10:49):
So, in my head, again, going through the journey of
what is all this stuff about, inmy head, I had the way I
visualize this was if I took aheroin addict off, like the
visual was there's a heroinaddict on the street with a
needle in his arm, and he movesto Kratom, and I think that's a
win.
And what that what I'mintimidated by about selling
(11:10):
Kratom front of house is Ididn't want to turn them the
other way.
So thank you for calling outthe fact that you don't
recommend it for everyone.
I don't want to be the gatewayinto any of it, quite frankly.
Of course, as my recoveryevolves, I'm starting to learn
that all things aren't equal,all bodies aren't equal.
So I I appreciate what you'resaying with that.
(11:33):
Yeah, of course.
How do people know other thanif they are Kratom and they're
looking for Kratom solutions,they need to find you.
So tell everybody the name ofyour company first because you
probably ship, right?
Do you ship?
Bobbie Malatesta (11:46):
Yes, yeah, we ship to all the uh le legal
states.
Uh, we're called New HopeBotanicals.
Uh, we're based out of SouthernCal California.
I have an amazing uh staff, andwe all use Kratom here, which
is kind of cool.
That's like the oneprerequisite to work here.
You know, we don't care aboutyour background, nothing like
that.
Just uh, you know, it's funny.
That's one of the the questionson the service on the
(12:07):
application.
Do you take Kratom?
You know, yeah.
So yeah, newhobotanicals.com isis where you can find us.
And when when you were sayingtoo, you don't want it to be a
gateway, that's why I thinkhaving education is so perfect.
Like sometimes people come intoour shop and we'll tell them,
like, yeah, I don't think you'rea good fit for this.
Like, like, even though theythey want Kratom, you know,
(12:30):
because it's all about how it'smarketed and who it's marketed
to.
I think that's why so there aresome very vocal anti-kratom
people because they were saying,like, oh, this was sold to me
as a natural and energysupplement, which technically it
actually is.
However, you need to go indepth with more people, like,
okay, if you're using this forenergy, it has to be extremely
(12:53):
low dose, and you have to likedon't use it every single day.
You know, that that issomething that most people will
never they they don't get toldthat, and that's why proper late
labeling is so important.
And also, if you walk into alot of convenience stores,
you'll see extremely powerfulKratom extracts, which are way
stronger than the Kratom foundin nature, sold right next to a
(13:15):
five hour hour energy drink.
You know, it's just the it'sthe public perception because
Kratom, uh how um I think it'san amazing tool, it saved my
life.
There's so many people outthere that swear Kratom gave
them their life back, but youhave to be real about the risks
versus the reward ratio.
Someone has you know, it has noissues whatsoever, and they're
(13:37):
just taking Kratom to takeKratom is probably not the best
choice.
But for someone who is inchronic pain that the medical
system turned their back on, ora veteran with PTSD, or someone
like myself in my situation, orsomeone who has severe
depression, you know, whenyou're you see these big pharma
commercials, that half thecommercial is just these crazy,
crazy side effects, you know.
(13:57):
Then yeah, Kratom might be abetter solution for you.
But the average Joe Schmowalking the street doesn't need
it, it's a very powerful plant,it's a it's a powerful plant and
has the power to change livesfor the most part good.
There's some that it haschanged for for the worse, but
(14:18):
it's very small in incomparison.
Jordan (14:22):
Thank you.
Yeah, and actually peoplewanting to not fall into big
pharma's loopholes and bullshit,is why I actually brought my
first case in.
Was because and it was I seeLalo, I love they're so awesome,
but Mike 9 is one of the brandsthat I use for the drinks.
(14:43):
And I've drank in cans oftheirs for when I'm achy and
ick, and it does.
It's once in a blue moon, Ihave not felt addicted to it.
I, you know, like I use it forwhen my body is.
I don't want to take a freakinghydrocodone or a you know,
those kinds of things.
So personally I could see thevalue, but then I've also like
(15:04):
lost a customer that startedwith Kava, moved to Kratom, and
and hasn't been back because Ithink he was sourcing other,
like from what I heard throughthe grapevine, sourcing other
things.
Now it could have been 7-0, itcould have been too much
creative.
I don't know what it was, whichis part of why I'm like, shit,
(15:26):
I gotta get responsible aboutthis and be able to understand.
Bobbie Malatesta (15:30):
Yeah.
Jordan (15:31):
Can you talk a little about do you sell like there's
white and green and red?
Are those the good ones?
Bobbie Malatesta (15:39):
Or yeah, so a lot of people get very confused
about all these differentstrains.
They'll go onto these websitesthat list a hundred different
strains.
I'm actually it's so funny youasked this because I'm
publishing a book about thisnext week.
Um, they'll go to thesewebsites that list a hundred
different types of kratom,claiming they they'll all do
different things.
That is 100% marketing.
(15:59):
The truth is there's onekratom, there's one crit kratom
tree, but depending on where theleaf is in its life cycle and
especially the drying processpost-harvest can change it
different colors, and everyoneis super subjective from person
to person.
They'll say white for flight,then they'll say green for
(16:19):
in-between and red for bed.
However, you know, 30% of ourclients take the white for
nighttime, 30% of our clientstake the red because it gives
them a big um energy boost.
Kratom isn't a one size fitsall.
And when I say strains, I'msaying like you'll read online
green mingle, green bali, greenmalay, green tie.
That and it they'll say this ifyou take green tie, you'll get
(16:41):
this specific result.
If you take green bali, you'llget this specific result.
That is 100 percent markmarketing because everyone is
different.
It's like saying, like, whichwhich coffee is gonna give you a
pep in your step.
You know, it's all coffee.
Like, what matters ismatragenine, just like caffeine
matters to coffee.
But like, here's some exampleslike we'll talk about green tie.
(17:04):
Thailand banned Kratom forexport uh in 1943 and just
released the ban four years ago.
No Kratom in the United Statesis actually from T Thailand,
it's not Green Malay bannedKratom in 1952 for export, and
it's still in effect to rightnow.
There's no green Malay in thecountry, there's no Kratom for
(17:27):
Malaysia, everything comes fromfrom Indonesia, and it all comes
from uh Borneo and it all comesfrom West Kalimantan.
So it's basically they're justputting a bunch of different
labels on different batches tosay we we have all those on our
website.
We have green bali, but no baligrows, no kratom grows on the
(17:48):
island of Bali.
That's it.
It I was just in Indonesia.
There's no Kratom there, youknow.
And I was talking to suppliers,and we a lot of American
vendors will will sell thatstuff because that's what it
comes labeled as from thesuppliers, because that's what
the American market expects.
They expect all these strainsand all these uniqueness while
(18:08):
95% of it just isn't true, it'snot factual.
Jordan (18:13):
And how are people getting their information?
Because this is fascinating tome, too.
Is there's no commercials on TVor ads, or right?
Like, especially because it'slegal in some places and not.
Is it just all word of mouththe the Kratom spread?
Bobbie Malatesta (18:30):
Yeah, so I mean, we originally think that
Kratom came to the United Stateswhen soldiers came back from
from the Vietnam War because 20%of all soldiers were addicted
to to heroin, you know, toescape the the hellish
conditions of war.
And we would it's it'stheorized that the friendly
locals there that weresupporting the soldiers saw them
(18:54):
in withdrawal and gave themkratom, and they brought it back
to to America with them.
Uh another possible explanationwas when people from Southeast
Asia migrated to the the states,they brought part of their
culture with them.
Kratom is extremely entrenchedin South Asian culture and in
(19:14):
Malaysia and Thailand and inIndonesia.
Like an example of why Kratombecame banned in Thailand
because it was still underBritish colonial rule.
They banned Kratom in 1952, andthe colonial rule stopped in
1957, so they were losingcontrol in 1952, so they started
(19:35):
banning local traditions, andKratom was one of those local
traditions that got banned inMalaysia.
Kratom people always take theseKratom bans on face value, they
don't really understand thenuances.
And like I said, Kratom did getbanned in Malaysia in 1952.
That's because the British werelosing control, they they
(19:55):
totally lost control in 1952, sothey started banning local
traditions, and Kratom was oneof those traditions.
They started not let lettingpeople speak their native
language in certain situations.
So same thing in Thailandhappened in when Kratom got
banned in 1943.
That's because the governmentwas controlling the opium trade,
(20:16):
and Kratom was cutting intotheir opium tax by a massive, a
massive margin.
So they're like, Nope, notgonna have that anymore.
And you know, so many Thaihistorians have even come to the
table now.
I'm going to Thailand likerelatively soon to talk to to
one of these guys, and they'resaying, Yeah, it was 100%
because of of the opium trade,but people were still using crit
(20:38):
kratom through all that time,all that time.
Wow.
Yeah.
Jordan (20:43):
Do you have advice for people then who are looking?
Well remind me, I have a veryserious question to ask you too.
So advice for people, it'sinteresting by the way, all that
history.
But if if they want to exploreKratom, what are some good
(21:04):
resources, or how do they lookto not get caught in all this?
I I don't even know the rightword, bullshit, really.
The lack and and how do theyfind the truth?
Bobbie Malatesta (21:16):
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say all of it is is
like bullshit.
I think a lot of it isexaggerations, you know.
But the American KratomAssociation is a great place to
to get real science and info.
Kratomanswers.org is a greatresource.
My TikTok page, I feel like, isa pretty good resource, Kratom
Ninja, K-R-A-T-O-M.
(21:37):
Also, if you're really nerdy,Dr.
Jack Henningfield'seight-factor analysis is a great
one.
He's from Thomas, no, he's fromuh John Hopkins, but all the
information from John HopkinsSchool of Medicine, the surveys
done, Dr.
Oliver Grundman, Dr.
Christopher McCurdy.
If you want more information onthe wrongful death suits, I
(21:59):
would say Dr.
Marilyn Hustis, who's probablythe most respected toxicologist
in the country, she she actuallytook on a lot of the wrongful
death cases that were labeledonly Kratom.
And she was able to retest theblood vials, and they all came
back for novel psychoactivesubstances not detectable on
standard tests.
(22:20):
And when she actually requestedmore blood vials, they
magically just disappeared.
No more blood vials becameavailable.
Dr.
Jane Babin is probably the bestresearcher I've seen on
causation does not equalcorrelation, or I don't know if
that's backwards.
You know, just because someonedied someone died with kratom in
(22:41):
their system doesn't mean thatthey died from kratom.
I'm not saying no one's everdied from kratom because people
have died from water toxicity,you know, people have died from
peanuts, people, a lot of peopledie from from caffeine.
However, I've never seen onecase that has actually been
like, okay, this was justkratom.
There's so much more.
I mean, you know, three peoplethat there was a guy that
(23:04):
committed suicide,unfortunately, with a gunshot
wound, and he had kratom in hissystem, but they labeled that
the cause of death.
It was a kratom-associateddeath, not the blunt force
trauma, or you know, people havebeen in car accidents with
kratom in their system.
One guy was even in aparachuting accident and Kratom
was in his system.
I actually had one of my goodfriends, she was labeled a
(23:25):
Kratom death, and she was herelocally.
Like I knew her, I saw herevery single day.
However, she was chewingfentanyl patches, she was
drinking almost half a bottle ofliquor a day.
Even her family was like, Thisisn't right, Kratom's not what
killed her.
You know, Kratom was what washelping her for a while, but
then she started, you know,doing other stuff as well.
(23:47):
So there's a lot of info outthere.
There's a lot of info.
You just kind of have to digthrough the weeds to to really
find it.
Jordan (23:56):
And and you do an amazing job on your TikTok page.
I use it as a resource all thetime.
Like I said, I could I couldbinge on you and you figured out
TikTok too.
How to make it engaging, how tomake it informative, like how
to talk the language.
When I first started watchingyou, and you could say seven my
(24:16):
my my my dragony, yeah, mytragedy.
I'm like, how is he doing allthese big words?
Um you you answered kind of myquestion.
So I had interviewed a lady whowas convinced that her son OD'd
on Kratom, and you kind ofanswered that already.
That was my serious question.
(24:37):
And it she's really advocatingbecause they called it
Kratom-related deaths in in theplaces in Florida.
And I think Florida's gettingthe most attention because
there's the most common Kratombars down there.
It's it's more out loud.
I feel like people aren'tnoticing in the smoke shops.
(24:59):
It's it's it's blowing my mind,and I'm trying to raise
awareness in our communitybecause it's the same smoke
shops that are probably sellingweed behind the counter to the
kids and all the things, right?
So it kind of all goestogether.
So do you foresee with what youknow?
Because I I get the senseyou're involved in the
legislator.
(25:20):
Okay, I just can't talk at all.
Pay attention to the laws andall of that.
Kratoms, what, legal in like 10or 12 states right now?
Bobbie Malatesta (25:32):
Oh, so it's uh illegal, it was illegal in six
for a very, very long time.
Now it's illegal in seven.
Like Louisiana just passed,just passed legislation not too
long ago, but it's becauselawmakers are confusing seven
hydroxy with normal Kratom.
And you know, seven hydroxy isa completely different beast.
(25:54):
I I I I would say I'm notsaying it doesn't have
therapeutic value, you know,down the road, especially in
like a medical setting.
However, the companies thatmake seven hydroxies they don't
want to take the 10 years ittakes to get a new drug to the
market and spend the billionsand billions of dollars.
They would rather just sell itunder the guise of Kratom now
(26:15):
and make millions.
I mean, I think they'reprofiting probably 8 million per
week now, maybe 10 million perper per week, pro like
profiting.
And you know, it's profitingoff of people's suffering.
I mean, I I get so manymessages from 70H companies,
please sell our products, pleasesell our products.
And I just tell them kiss myfat ass.
Like every time I just I justcan't do it.
(26:36):
I I can't morally do it.
I sleep well at night being aKratom vendor, I would never
sleep well at night being aseven hydroxy dealer.
Is I, you know, there's adifference between being a
dealer and a vendor, in in myopinion.
But yeah, if I could go back tothe the mom you were talking
about real quick, and I mean nodisrespect to any person that's
(26:57):
lost a child, that's not myintention whatsoever.
I mean, I've I've lost met manyfriends to to substances, but
but I've always wanted to askthe question is like there's
never been a public healthcrisis from natural kratom in
Southeast Asia.
There's never been one death inSoutheast Asia from Kratom, and
(27:20):
Kratom's been used for athousand years going back to the
Dyak tribe.
I just I want to know, doesKratom automatically become
deadly once it crosses theborder into um America?
That's just one question that Ihave.
Or is it the fact that they'remaking these products that say
(27:41):
Kratom, but they're they're not,they're taking Kratom out of
its natural form, they're doingstuff to the plant that never
nature never intended it to be.
An example would be the FDAcounts nine deaths in Sweden as
Kratom deaths.
There was a product calledKrypton, where a company, Kratom
(28:01):
Company, I should I'm sayingthat in quotes because they're
just not good people.
They they mix Odesmethyltramadol into the Kratom,
and nine people died.
And Odes methyltramadol is anextremely powerful deadly
opioid.
And but this has been proventhat Odes methyltramadol was
mixed in, and the FDA stillcounts these as nine Kratom
(28:23):
deaths, you know.
And Kratom is always the lowhang hanging fruit, always,
always, always.
Like, for example, the thelatest poison control data said
that there was 1117 calls thatwere Kratom that that were for
Kratom.
But people don't realize, like,so many people underreport what
(28:44):
they're actually doing.
Like, if you're in a situationlike with your mom's there and
you're freaking out, like you'reoverdosing, it's like, oh yeah,
I took Kratom, it I bought itat the store.
You know, it's so much easierto say than I was doing fentanyl
or I was doing cocaine or allthat type of stuff, and that's
what people don't re realize.
But also, if you just look atthe the data at itself, you
(29:07):
know, there's 20 million Kratomusers in the United States.
If there was 1,117 calls, thatmeans you have a better chance
of getting struck by lightningbecause that's it was like one
in 17,000 if it's out of 20million, but getting struck by
lightning is one out of 15,300.
Like these are things are muchscarier in headlines when
there's not context in ininvolved, you know, they'll be
(29:29):
like, Oh, Kratomhospitalizations are on the
rise.
Numbers are much scarierwithout context, and that's what
people don't want to actuallytalk about.
They'll just take a headlineand they'll run with it.
Like, oh, Kratomhospitalizations are on the
rise.
However, if you talk to all theKratom experts, these doctors
(29:50):
that all they do is studyKratom, like, yes, people are
going, but they're going forrapid heart rate, they're going
for dizziness, they're going forit's the exact opposite.
It of what we see from likeKratom, or they'll go for like
blood pressure issues, and allthese things can happen with
caffeine.
You know, that's why people goto the hospital for caffeine
because Kratom does havestimulant-like properties to it.
(30:13):
But the the media makes it seemlike people are coming in with
blue lips or not breathing.
You know, kratom doesn'tactivate the rest in two beta
pathway in the brain, which iswhat causes respiratory
depression from from fromopioids.
It can't be done.
It can't be done.
Study after study, so many ratstudies giving giving rats 400
times the amount that a personcould reasonably consume.
(30:36):
And all of them got reallygroggy but woke back up, you
know?
That that that's the thing thatpeople don't realize, and
that's why Kratom is such avaluable tool.
That I'll say it, I'll say it amillion times.
I don't recommend it foreveryone, but like my channel is
to educate it for the peoplethat truly need it.
Jordan (30:54):
So you can't OD on Kratom.
Is that a true statement?
Bobbie Malatesta (30:58):
Well, so it depends on what you mean by by
OD.
What we mean by O D whatrespiratory depression, no.
Jordan (31:07):
Is that what it is when you OD from heroin?
Is it respiratory depression?
Bobbie Malatesta (31:12):
Yes, you actually, yeah, you stop
breathing breathing.
That that that's what happens,and it's the the the rest in two
beta pathway in the brain iswhat kratom doesn't cause.
That's what when people getrespiratory depression from
opioids, they they they stopbreathing, but kratom has been
proven that doesn't happen.
However, with 70H, respiratorydepression is possible.
(31:33):
Dr.
Chris McCurdy from theUniversity of Florida, who I
flew out to his lab and Iinterviewed him for about two
hours, he was saying how in ratsthey did studies where it's
called 7-hydroxy versusmetragenine, which is kratom,
it's bi-directional breathing inrats, is what the study was
(31:55):
called because huge doses ofmitragenine actually increased
the breathing of the rats.
Seven hydroxy actuallydecreased the breathing of the
rats, and that was they wereable to reverse those effects
with Narcan, basically.
Jordan (32:11):
That was my question.
I wrote down Narcan.
So 7-0 was reversed with Narcanbecause the symptom was there
to reverse.
Yes, Kratom Narcan wouldn'twork because you're not going to
be in that state because Kratomdoesn't create that state.
Bobbie Malatesta (32:29):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
It in metrogenine, it increasedthe breathing.
And with seven hydroxy, itcaused respiratory depression.
And when you have two productslabeled Kratom, like that's
that's the really, really scarypart that most people just don't
understand.
And again, many people thinkI'm so anti-70H, I'm just
anti-lying to people like thatbecause people need to make
(32:53):
informed decisions for for forfor themselves.
And when you're giving peoplewrong information, they can't
make informed decisions.
And that's what really isirritating to me.
Jordan (33:03):
Well, I appreciate you informing me because I've been
of the school from the oneguest, you know, having the fear
when she told me that there wasover 700 Kratom-related deaths.
I've been invoking fear in meand my guests.
Like, stay away from it.
Like, I'll only sell my TR9,just the cans, because I feel
(33:27):
like that's just right.
And because I have enoughexperience now with it myself.
But now I'm only as good as theinformation I have, right?
So you're giving me moreinformation to at least share
this to speak a little bit moreeducated.
Cause I would have because ofyou, I knew there was danger.
Like to me, danger was 7-0.
(33:48):
I don't like the tactics to getit into my store that I've
experienced.
Um it's just scary.
Like I'm trying to think of abig gas station chain out your
way.
So imagine walking in, becausethis just happened in our
biggest one of our biggestchains.
(34:10):
It says create 'em.
It wasn't even in a case thefirst month.
It's on the counter, so youcould just reach it.
It wasn't secure, and it wasseven ounces.
And I I asked the cashiers, I'mlike, what is this?
I don't know.
$55 for like eight tablets.
I said, so they check the ageverification on it.
(34:33):
And I said, All right, well,I'm gonna see how many packets
of this I could steal and walkout with because age
verification buttons don't meanshit if the kids are coming in
and taking it right off thecounter.
So now there's now they're in abox, but the top of the box
says Kratom.
Yeah, and I'm like, this ain'tKratom.
(34:54):
And the poor employees, like, Ilove the employees, and it's I
know it's not them.
Their district manager is evensober and he's against it, but
it's a corporate freaking thing,which surprises me that
corporate wouldn't be doing moredue diligence.
No matter corporate's usually alittle bit more structured from
my experience and would stayoff of the fence.
(35:17):
That I'm fucking livid aboutthis being accessible.
Bobbie Malatesta (35:21):
Yeah, it it's it's crazy.
You know, even I always tellpeople there's three different
products there's there's regularKratom, which is just the
powder and the leaves.
The only product you canconsider real Kratom is dried
kratom powder or fresh kratomleaves.
That's the only thing.
Then you have kratom extracts,which are a totally different
product.
It's just like if you think ofregular Kratom as coffee, then
(35:44):
extracts are caffeine pills.
No one would ever say thatcaffeine pills and coffee are
the same product, they'rethey're not, they're completely
different.
Most people don't have issuesdrinking coffee.
But when you hear of peoplehaving serious issues with
caffeine, man went to thehospital from caffeine, it's not
because he drank a bunch ofcoffee, it's because he was
doing caffeine powder or becausehe was doing caffeine pills and
(36:04):
it's so concentrated and he didmore than he's supposed to.
And then you have sevenhydroxy, which is like meth,
basically.
Like they're it's you know,that they're all stimulants,
yes, but they're very, very,very, very different.
And again, I I have to say itevery time.
I I don't want to make it seemlike seven hydroxy is the is the
devil, but the way that they'representing it and the way that
(36:27):
there's access to it is, and theway that they're lying to it,
it's it could be amazing in likea hospital setting for
end-of-life care for people inextreme pain under like the
right settings, but like you'reliterally handing people a
loaded gun.
Like these people that you weretalking about at the at this at
the gas station, they don'tknow what they're doing, they're
just told to sell it, you know.
(36:49):
And the same thing with smokeshops, they're just it's kratom,
it's better, it's faster, it'sstronger.
You know, where where I go, youknow, I went to Indonesia where
where they use Kratom for athousand years, and they're
like, no, nature made it better.
Let's go slower, you know,let's go back to what actually
we've been using for so long.
You know, people in inIndonesia are completely against
(37:11):
seven hydroxy.
When I went to Indonesia and Igot picked up by my guide, the
first question he is is he saidis what do you think about seven
hydroxy in in America?
You know, I was like, it's notgood, it's not good.
So it's it's making a worldwideimpact.
And these people, even thepeople that own the companies,
like I've read their leaked eattheir leaked info, like through
email saying we created amonster, like they they they
(37:34):
know what they did, you know,and they'll they'll always say,
Oh, but overdoses are down by24% because of 7 hydroxy.
They're they're comparing it toCOVID data.
Like, yes, of course, morepeople overdose during COVID
because we're all lacked lockedinside, we were forced to wear
masks, you couldn't hug yourfamily, you couldn't do any of
(37:54):
that type of stuff.
So, of course, overdoses werewere going to be up back then.
Um, it's just yeah, most peoplehaven't spent as much time in
the Kratom world as I have, theyhaven't really educated
themselves on the nuances.
You know, I just released abook, it's called The Truth
About Kratom, Lifesaving Plantor Botanical Menace, where it's
(38:15):
so many pay pages in A throughZ, The Wrongful Deaths, like
everything you could imagine inone book.
It's that book.
And, you know, just I alwaystry to put myself in the shoes
of people that don't know aboutKratom, that are just they're
trying to learn about it, andI'm trying to steer them in the
right direction.
If this is a good fit for youor if it isn't a good fit for
(38:38):
you, you know, sales aren'teverything, people always come
first, and that's what I feellike seven hydroxy companies
have forgotten.
Jordan (38:47):
For sure.
Jordan, is there anything thatI haven't asked out of curiosity
that you want to make sure thatthe listeners know and hear
from you?
Bobbie Malatesta (38:57):
No, I I just think that seven, I mean, I
think that Kratom is alife-saving plant.
I think it's verymisunderstood, and in some ways
it's reefer madness, like allover again.
It's kind of what like happenedto Kava in the 1990s, as I'm
sure you're you're aware.
I I went to Fiji to source Kavaback in 2019, and you know, I
was talking to a lot ofsuppliers over there, and
(39:19):
they're going through the samething.
They went through the samething the creative industry is
going through now.
Uh like eventually it all gotworked out.
But I mean, there's still BSabout Kava saying it causes
liver damage, all that type ofstuff, you know.
And I'm sure you are very wellaware that that the national
institute, not not that theNational Institute of Drug Abuse
said the the chance of liverdamage from Kava was one in one
(39:41):
million, you know.
It's yeah, it's like you haveto put things in in perspective.
But I think Kratom's alife-saving plant for the people
that that need it.
I just think it's verymisunderstood.
And in I always say tell peopleKratom is like a hammer, it
could build you a beautiful homeor you could hit yourself in
the thumb.
You know, those are it's thesame tool, it's just how you use
(40:02):
the the tool for most people.
It's a in myself, like myselfthat were in in substance use
disorder for a long time, it'sit's an amazing tool that can
help them gain stability forsome people in substance use
disorder, a very smallpercentage.
It they can run with it in thewrong way.
Jordan (40:22):
So is it does it uh do this?
You when you said that Istarted thinking about suboxin.
Like, how would you compareKratom to Suboxen?
Like, same job, different road,like same destination.
Bobbie Malatesta (40:38):
Yes, I I would say, you know, because suboxin
has been a life-savingmedication for a lot of people,
however, there are side effectsof it.
Some people don't like it, somepeople love being on suboxin.
It kind of just depends.
I would say Kratom is muchgentler than suboxin.
I I I I was on suboxin and Ifelt like a zombie, you know.
I had some teeth issues withkratom, nothing like that has
(41:01):
ever really happened to me.
I just feel normal.
I I'm physically dependent onKratom, but that's a huge
different than huge differencethan being in addiction, you
know.
A lot of people are aredependent on things, but they're
not addicted to it.
Like my mother-in-law takesantidepressants, never done a
drug in her life.
But if she misses her dose ofantidepressants, she does not
(41:22):
feel well at all.
And it's not pretty to see.
The same thing can happen withKratom.
However, the actual people ofgetting withdrawals from Kratom
is relatively low compared tothe general pop population of
people that take Kratom.
Like typically less than 10% ofpeople experience withdrawals.
But in that 10% of people, somepeople experience severe
withdrawals, like severewithdrawals.
(41:44):
However, for most, they're mildto moderate.
The the statistics, the datalooks a lot different if you're
looking at extracts.
But again, those are acompletely different product,
you know.
Like we sell some extracts, butwe try to stay people away from
it.
The only reason we carry thatis because some people have gut
issues and can't consume thepowder.
So doing an extract for them isjust um easier, but we try to
(42:07):
stay try try to not let peoplego down that road for the most
part.
There's there's alwaysexceptions to the rule, however,
when it comes to Kratom, therule should just be like stick
to pure leaf powder, don't messwith any other stuff, you know.
Jordan (42:20):
Yeah, the powder.
So the first time I took it, Ididn't realize the dosing at
all.
This is my ignorance.
I took the powder to see whatit was all about, and I measured
it out like it was proteinpowder for a chocolate shake.
I thought it was gonna taste myshake.
Oh, it was horrendous, and mystomach hurt for days.
Bobbie Malatesta (42:43):
Oh, yeah, I'm sure.
I'm sure that's yeah, that see,that's one of the things with
Kratom I love too, because ithas built-in defense mechanisms.
If you take too much kratom,you're gonna throw up and you're
gonna get something called thewobbles where you get really,
really, really dizzy and youdon't feel good.
But if you take too muchopioids, you know, you might not
make it.
So that's why I think Kratom isis is a good tool for most some
(43:08):
people.
Some people, I should say.
I don't mean to say mostpeople, because most people
don't have a need for Kratom,but for the people that do, it's
very niche, but it's verylife-saving within that niche.
Jordan (43:19):
Yeah.
Well, I tell you, you are mypeople, you are open-minded,
you're informative, you'repassionate, and I really
appreciate all that about you,Jordan.
You're helping me and myaudience more than I can
explain.
Like, who's the guru on Kratom?
It was you.
It was like hands down, and youdon't need the doctor before
(43:40):
after your name, but you havegathered all this information,
and the way that you share it isamazing because it could be
received in a really good way.
Oh, thank you.
You taking the time, buddy.
It means the world to me.
Bobbie Malatesta (43:53):
Yeah, of course.
I'll I'll send you a copy of mymy my my book.
I have a PDF version right now,it's totally free.
And then we're gonna have likeactual hard copies that I'll be
selling on Amazon, but I'll sendyou one for free, the hard
copy, just so you have it andyou can read it in in your spare
time.
Jordan (44:11):
That sounds good.
And uh we'll look at gettingsome in the store to sell so
people can have access to ittoo.
Bobbie Malatesta (44:16):
Oh, that'd be cool.
Thank you so much.
Jordan (44:18):
Yeah, yeah.
All right, well, I can'tpromise you won't ever hear from
me again, but I have to be rein here.
Bobbie Malatesta (44:25):
Yeah, we we we just scratched the surface.
There's so much more.
So if you want me back again, Ican definitely do that, so it's
no problem.
Jordan (44:33):
Get things started.
My name is Jordan Richard.
I've been in the creativeindustry, a really bad uh heroin
addict.
For parents did everything theythey could to try to help me.
Nothing worked.
My mom even went back to schoolto become a drug and alcohol
counselor to try to help me.
Just went through a lot ofstuff growing up that kids
really shouldn't do.
I had an eating disorder at avery young age, went through
(00:49):
sexual abuse, all that stuffthat led me to use drugs like
late late later in life.
I was actually gonna be aprofessional pool player, and
that's like all I did.
I traveled the country as akid, but I always had this demon
surrounding me.
And pool is a very mental game,so I was looking for anything
to align my myself and my ownself around high school.
(01:11):
And I was like, oh my gosh, Ican talk to girls, I can play
pool better, I can do everythingthat that I want.
And you know, that just kept prprogressing.
And then by the time I was 20,I was doing heroin and all that
stuff.
And it was funny because I wasworking with special needs kids
full-time, but I'd be smokingwith smoking heroin in the
parking lot.
But I would get like employeeof the month.
I was I was like really good atlike hiding that stuff.
(01:33):
And finally, there were twoincidents that happened.
I overdosed twice in one week,and then I got involved in a low
speed chase with the cops.
Like I used my blinker and allthat kind of stuff.
I never went over 35, but I wasavoiding police as the gang
task force unit.
Finally got pulled over, eightguns on me, you know, my
passengers reaching under theseat.
(01:53):
Like I was okay, we're gonnaget shot.
So I'm in the back of the copcar, and I was just like
praying, like, God, if you getme out of this, I'll change my
life.
Yeah.
45 minutes later, the cop justlets me go.
He goes, Mr.
Richard, this is your secondchance after I led them on this,
you know, low speed chase.
And they they're like, I don'tknow, like you obeyed our
commands.
Here's your second chance,basically.
(02:15):
And then I overdosed again.
I didn't keep my promise.
And I remember hearing myparents cry in the hospital, and
I was like, okay, I have tochange.
I have to change.
So I got home and Googlednatural ways to beat addiction,
and Kratom kept popping up.
Went to the smoke shops, it didabsolutely nothing for me.
And then I was like, Well, Iused to buy a bunch of stuff on
(02:36):
Craigslist, so I'll go onCraigslist.
And I looked on Craigslist andI saw a guy selling it up in the
mountains, which was about anhour and a half from where I
lived.
And I drove up there, and thatmeeting changed my life forever.
Within 45 minutes of me tryingit, I was crying.
I I like I knew this actuallywas gonna work for me.
(02:57):
Fast forward, you know, 12years later, that guy I met on
Craigslist is is my businesspartner, the one that saved my
life.
He was a groomsman in mywedding, he's one of my best
friends, and we opened our shop,I think like eight or nine
years ago, a long time ago.
And then I met no, like sixyears ago, and then I met my
wife.
She owned a one of thebuildings right next to me.
(03:18):
We got married and startedhaving kids, and here I am now.
So, but I I would considermyself like very involved within
the Kratom world, definitely.
Jordan (03:30):
So it changed your life.
So that's what led you on thisjourney.
Was there so part in myignorance because I didn't even
know what Kratom was until Iopened my store, and this the
topic started coming up?
And I was scared in thebeginning.
I didn't even want to sellkava, and kava's nothing
compared to Kratom, at least nowhow I view it.
(03:50):
So was 7-0 and the garbage andthe stuff around, even when you
started your journey.
Bobbie Malatesta (03:58):
No, the when I first started the journey,
there was nothing but like purepure leaf powder.
Basically, there might havebeen a few like random extracts,
but the 95% of what was beingsold was just the pure powder.
7 hydroxy is a very, very newconcept, I'd say within the last
few years, but it's not whatKratom truly is.
(04:19):
And so many people are gettingintroduced to Kratom that way,
and people are calling itKratom.
Like 7 hydroxy is not Kratom,it's it's basically uh it's a
synthetic opioid if we're gonnabe honest.
Like it's it's not what they'retelling people that that it is.
Like I I traveled the country,I talked to all the Kratom
experts, you know, people fromNational Institute of Drug
(04:42):
Abuse, the researchers fromUniversity of Florida, Dr.
Chris McCurdy's been givenmillions of dollars by NIDA to
study Kratom, and they're theones that sound the alarm the
most.
Like they they've done ratstudies where seven hydroxy can
cause respiratory depression,but normal kratom can't.
And that's a huge distinction.
That that's one of the mainreasons why I support Kratom as
(05:04):
much as it does.
Like, I don't people are alwayslike, Oh, you traded one
diction for for another.
But I support stability, notjust sobriety is so important
because I tried total sobrietyand it led me back to what I was
doing over and over and overagain.
Like, people people don't seemto grasp that.
(05:26):
But there's an advocate namedMisty Brown who I think said it
best that Kratom is an amazingway out of addiction, seven
hydroxy can put you right backin addiction.
And so many people that I getmessages from TikTok, they're
like, I just thought it wasKratom.
I was doing amazing on Kratomfor years, and the smoke shop
just told me it was Kratom, butbetter.
And now I lost my house, I lostmy marriage.
(05:48):
These aren't traits wetypically associate with Kratom.
Most people, Dr.
Jack Henningfield from JohnHopkins School of Medicine, he
was saying that, you know, mostpeople say I take Kratom because
it gave me my life back insteadof like seven hydroxy, where
they're saying I'm gettingeverything taken away from me.
Those are two very, verydifferent things, all under the
(06:10):
same guise of Kratom.
I mean, they're selling sevenhydroxy and kratom extracts
right next to five-hour energydrinks.
You know, these are vastlydifferent prop products than
Kratom.
So it's interesting, it'sscary.
Jordan (06:24):
Well, Jordan, I'll tell you.
When I reached out to you lastweek, well, I reached out to you
out of curiosity, but then wefound out that one of my
friends, the husband was inrecovery for heroin addiction.
Has been going out to the trunkand he was buying a brand.
And and before she even toldme, when she told me it was
capsules, I was like, it's 7-0.
(06:45):
But I went to the smoke shopwith her and I researched it
throughout the day.
And I asked both the smoke shopemployees, I said, So what are
people buying this for?
What is this for?
Neither one of them knew andthey're selling it.
Yeah, and I was like, Yeah,this is fucked up.
And uh it is and that's whatcreated the urgency.
(07:07):
So thank you for making thishappen.
So, can you talk about howKratom like you said that you
were crying?
I don't know if that was, Iwould just love some
clarification.
Was it the Kratom activation orwas it the relief of like, oh,
I found something that will helpme?
Like, what did that look like?
And then how does Kratominteract in your body?
Bobbie Malatesta (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
So I started crying because Ifelt hopeful over.
I mean, so many years just hitme all at once.
Like, what have I been doing?
I've been stealing myself againfor the first time in so many
years.
And that was a long, long timesince I felt like myself.
Like, oh my gosh, I'm back, I'mback to me.
And that was the craziestthing.
So Kratom works in manydifferent ways in in your brain.
(07:53):
It works on your serotinergic,dopaminergic, androgenergic, and
your adenosine receptor.
So there's many differentpathways that Kratom is
affecting all at once thattraditional opioids don't do.
Like a lot of people will say,oh, Kratom's an opioid, but
opioids don't activate thosepathways.
They're going to opioidreceptors.
And if I go back to 700H realquick, the reason why people are
(08:18):
having such trouble with 7OHand you're they're going back to
addictive behaviors because 7OHis strictly targeting opioid
receptors and it's binding tothe opioid receptor so tightly
and so strongly, like it's likebetween 60 and 70 times stronger
the binding affinity thannormal kratom powder.
So kratom binds to opioidreceptors, but it does so very,
(08:41):
very gently.
It like kind of just hugs thereceptors.
It it it it um it's enough thatit can stop withdrawal or it
can stop these certain sort ofbehaviors, but it doesn't
penetrate the receptor sostrongly.
Like it's the differencebetween a hug and a chokehold,
is the best way I can explain itfor people to understand.
(09:02):
And but there's many differentpathways in in the brain that
Kratom is is activating and canhelp.
That's why so many people canit can give people um energy or
mental clarity, or it can getpeople off of heroin.
It's very, very versatile plantfor sure.
I don't recommend Kratom foreveryone, but for the people
that need it, it can beeverything.
Jordan (09:23):
So you said, and I'm sorry, we got a little broken
up.
So if I have you repeatyourself, and some of the
language you just used was newto me.
So you said, I thought I heardyou say like dopamareceptor,
like dopamine.
Is that what you mean?
And say when you were listingthe receptor.
Bobbie Malatesta (09:41):
So basically, what what I was saying is that
Kratum affects many differentparts of the brain that
traditional opioids don't do.
Kratum gently binds to muteopioid receptors, like it gently
hugs it, while traditionalopioids do like a chokehold,
basically, and that's what7-hydroxy is doing.
But kratom also affects yourserotonergic, your dopaminergic,
(10:05):
angi-ergic, and your adenosinereceptors, which traditional
opioids don't do.
That's why Kratom has suchbalance and nuance um effects,
because instead of targeting onepart of the brain so much, it's
kind of spread out, and that'swhy a lot of people can say, Oh,
I can I feel normal again, likeI'm not like super high, I'm
(10:26):
not anything like that.
It's it it just it elevatesyour mood to a point where you
can have a better, more positiveoutlook on life.
Jordan (10:36):
Okay, thank you.
That that helps.
So, how do people know what isand and and if anyone all right,
I guess I gotta back up alittle.
Bobbie Malatesta (10:48):
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Jordan (10:49):
So, in my head, again, going through the journey of
what is all this stuff about, inmy head, I had the way I
visualize this was if I took aheroin addict off, like the
visual was there's a heroinaddict on the street with a
needle in his arm, and he movesto Kratom, and I think that's a
win.
And what that what I'mintimidated by about selling
(11:10):
Kratom front of house is Ididn't want to turn them the
other way.
So thank you for calling outthe fact that you don't
recommend it for everyone.
I don't want to be the gatewayinto any of it, quite frankly.
Of course, as my recoveryevolves, I'm starting to learn
that all things aren't equal,all bodies aren't equal.
So I I appreciate what you'resaying with that.
(11:33):
Yeah, of course.
How do people know other thanif they are Kratom and they're
looking for Kratom solutions,they need to find you.
So tell everybody the name ofyour company first because you
probably ship, right?
Do you ship?
Bobbie Malatesta (11:46):
Yes, yeah, we ship to all the uh le legal
states.
Uh, we're called New HopeBotanicals.
Uh, we're based out of SouthernCal California.
I have an amazing uh staff, andwe all use Kratom here, which
is kind of cool.
That's like the oneprerequisite to work here.
You know, we don't care aboutyour background, nothing like
that.
Just uh, you know, it's funny.
That's one of the the questionson the service on the
(12:07):
application.
Do you take Kratom?
You know, yeah.
So yeah, newhobotanicals.com isis where you can find us.
And when when you were sayingtoo, you don't want it to be a
gateway, that's why I thinkhaving education is so perfect.
Like sometimes people come intoour shop and we'll tell them,
like, yeah, I don't think you'rea good fit for this.
Like, like, even though theythey want Kratom, you know,
(12:30):
because it's all about how it'smarketed and who it's marketed
to.
I think that's why so there aresome very vocal anti-kratom
people because they were saying,like, oh, this was sold to me
as a natural and energysupplement, which technically it
actually is.
However, you need to go indepth with more people, like,
okay, if you're using this forenergy, it has to be extremely
(12:53):
low dose, and you have to likedon't use it every single day.
You know, that that issomething that most people will
never they they don't get toldthat, and that's why proper late
labeling is so important.
And also, if you walk into alot of convenience stores,
you'll see extremely powerfulKratom extracts, which are way
stronger than the Kratom foundin nature, sold right next to a
(13:15):
five hour hour energy drink.
You know, it's just the it'sthe public perception because
Kratom, uh how um I think it'san amazing tool, it saved my
life.
There's so many people outthere that swear Kratom gave
them their life back, but youhave to be real about the risks
versus the reward ratio.
Someone has you know, it has noissues whatsoever, and they're
(13:37):
just taking Kratom to takeKratom is probably not the best
choice.
But for someone who is inchronic pain that the medical
system turned their back on, ora veteran with PTSD, or someone
like myself in my situation, orsomeone who has severe
depression, you know, whenyou're you see these big pharma
commercials, that half thecommercial is just these crazy,
crazy side effects, you know.
(13:57):
Then yeah, Kratom might be abetter solution for you.
But the average Joe Schmowalking the street doesn't need
it, it's a very powerful plant,it's a it's a powerful plant and
has the power to change livesfor the most part good.
There's some that it haschanged for for the worse, but
(14:18):
it's very small in incomparison.
Jordan (14:22):
Thank you.
Yeah, and actually peoplewanting to not fall into big
pharma's loopholes and bullshit,is why I actually brought my
first case in.
Was because and it was I seeLalo, I love they're so awesome,
but Mike 9 is one of the brandsthat I use for the drinks.
(14:43):
And I've drank in cans oftheirs for when I'm achy and
ick, and it does.
It's once in a blue moon, Ihave not felt addicted to it.
I, you know, like I use it forwhen my body is.
I don't want to take a freakinghydrocodone or a you know,
those kinds of things.
So personally I could see thevalue, but then I've also like
(15:04):
lost a customer that startedwith Kava, moved to Kratom, and
and hasn't been back because Ithink he was sourcing other,
like from what I heard throughthe grapevine, sourcing other
things.
Now it could have been 7-0, itcould have been too much
creative.
I don't know what it was, whichis part of why I'm like, shit,
(15:26):
I gotta get responsible aboutthis and be able to understand.
Bobbie Malatesta (15:30):
Yeah.
Jordan (15:31):
Can you talk a little about do you sell like there's
white and green and red?
Are those the good ones?
Bobbie Malatesta (15:39):
Or yeah, so a lot of people get very confused
about all these differentstrains.
They'll go onto these websitesthat list a hundred different
strains.
I'm actually it's so funny youasked this because I'm
publishing a book about thisnext week.
Um, they'll go to thesewebsites that list a hundred
different types of kratom,claiming they they'll all do
different things.
That is 100% marketing.
(15:59):
The truth is there's onekratom, there's one crit kratom
tree, but depending on where theleaf is in its life cycle and
especially the drying processpost-harvest can change it
different colors, and everyoneis super subjective from person
to person.
They'll say white for flight,then they'll say green for
(16:19):
in-between and red for bed.
However, you know, 30% of ourclients take the white for
nighttime, 30% of our clientstake the red because it gives
them a big um energy boost.
Kratom isn't a one size fitsall.
And when I say strains, I'msaying like you'll read online
green mingle, green bali, greenmalay, green tie.
That and it they'll say this ifyou take green tie, you'll get
(16:41):
this specific result.
If you take green bali, you'llget this specific result.
That is 100 percent markmarketing because everyone is
different.
It's like saying, like, whichwhich coffee is gonna give you a
pep in your step.
You know, it's all coffee.
Like, what matters ismatragenine, just like caffeine
matters to coffee.
But like, here's some exampleslike we'll talk about green tie.
(17:04):
Thailand banned Kratom forexport uh in 1943 and just
released the ban four years ago.
No Kratom in the United Statesis actually from T Thailand,
it's not Green Malay bannedKratom in 1952 for export, and
it's still in effect to rightnow.
There's no green Malay in thecountry, there's no Kratom for
(17:27):
Malaysia, everything comes fromfrom Indonesia, and it all comes
from uh Borneo and it all comesfrom West Kalimantan.
So it's basically they're justputting a bunch of different
labels on different batches tosay we we have all those on our
website.
We have green bali, but no baligrows, no kratom grows on the
(17:48):
island of Bali.
That's it.
It I was just in Indonesia.
There's no Kratom there, youknow.
And I was talking to suppliers,and we a lot of American
vendors will will sell thatstuff because that's what it
comes labeled as from thesuppliers, because that's what
the American market expects.
They expect all these strainsand all these uniqueness while
(18:08):
95% of it just isn't true, it'snot factual.
Jordan (18:13):
And how are people getting their information?
Because this is fascinating tome, too.
Is there's no commercials on TVor ads, or right?
Like, especially because it'slegal in some places and not.
Is it just all word of mouththe the Kratom spread?
Bobbie Malatesta (18:30):
Yeah, so I mean, we originally think that
Kratom came to the United Stateswhen soldiers came back from
from the Vietnam War because 20%of all soldiers were addicted
to to heroin, you know, toescape the the hellish
conditions of war.
And we would it's it'stheorized that the friendly
locals there that weresupporting the soldiers saw them
(18:54):
in withdrawal and gave themkratom, and they brought it back
to to America with them.
Uh another possible explanationwas when people from Southeast
Asia migrated to the the states,they brought part of their
culture with them.
Kratom is extremely entrenchedin South Asian culture and in
(19:14):
Malaysia and Thailand and inIndonesia.
Like an example of why Kratombecame banned in Thailand
because it was still underBritish colonial rule.
They banned Kratom in 1952, andthe colonial rule stopped in
1957, so they were losingcontrol in 1952, so they started
(19:35):
banning local traditions, andKratom was one of those local
traditions that got banned inMalaysia.
Kratom people always take theseKratom bans on face value, they
don't really understand thenuances.
And like I said, Kratom did getbanned in Malaysia in 1952.
That's because the British werelosing control, they they
(19:55):
totally lost control in 1952, sothey started banning local
traditions, and Kratom was oneof those traditions.
They started not let lettingpeople speak their native
language in certain situations.
So same thing in Thailandhappened in when Kratom got
banned in 1943.
That's because the governmentwas controlling the opium trade,
(20:16):
and Kratom was cutting intotheir opium tax by a massive, a
massive margin.
So they're like, Nope, notgonna have that anymore.
And you know, so many Thaihistorians have even come to the
table now.
I'm going to Thailand likerelatively soon to talk to to
one of these guys, and they'resaying, Yeah, it was 100%
because of of the opium trade,but people were still using crit
(20:38):
kratom through all that time,all that time.
Wow.
Yeah.
Jordan (20:43):
Do you have advice for people then who are looking?
Well remind me, I have a veryserious question to ask you too.
So advice for people, it'sinteresting by the way, all that
history.
But if if they want to exploreKratom, what are some good
(21:04):
resources, or how do they lookto not get caught in all this?
I I don't even know the rightword, bullshit, really.
The lack and and how do theyfind the truth?
Bobbie Malatesta (21:16):
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say all of it is is
like bullshit.
I think a lot of it isexaggerations, you know.
But the American KratomAssociation is a great place to
to get real science and info.
Kratomanswers.org is a greatresource.
My TikTok page, I feel like, isa pretty good resource, Kratom
Ninja, K-R-A-T-O-M.
(21:37):
Also, if you're really nerdy,Dr.
Jack Henningfield'seight-factor analysis is a great
one.
He's from Thomas, no, he's fromuh John Hopkins, but all the
information from John HopkinsSchool of Medicine, the surveys
done, Dr.
Oliver Grundman, Dr.
Christopher McCurdy.
If you want more information onthe wrongful death suits, I
(21:59):
would say Dr.
Marilyn Hustis, who's probablythe most respected toxicologist
in the country, she she actuallytook on a lot of the wrongful
death cases that were labeledonly Kratom.
And she was able to retest theblood vials, and they all came
back for novel psychoactivesubstances not detectable on
standard tests.
(22:20):
And when she actually requestedmore blood vials, they
magically just disappeared.
No more blood vials becameavailable.
Dr.
Jane Babin is probably the bestresearcher I've seen on
causation does not equalcorrelation, or I don't know if
that's backwards.
You know, just because someonedied someone died with kratom in
(22:41):
their system doesn't mean thatthey died from kratom.
I'm not saying no one's everdied from kratom because people
have died from water toxicity,you know, people have died from
peanuts, people, a lot of peopledie from from caffeine.
However, I've never seen onecase that has actually been
like, okay, this was justkratom.
There's so much more.
I mean, you know, three peoplethat there was a guy that
(23:04):
committed suicide,unfortunately, with a gunshot
wound, and he had kratom in hissystem, but they labeled that
the cause of death.
It was a kratom-associateddeath, not the blunt force
trauma, or you know, people havebeen in car accidents with
kratom in their system.
One guy was even in aparachuting accident and Kratom
was in his system.
I actually had one of my goodfriends, she was labeled a
(23:25):
Kratom death, and she was herelocally.
Like I knew her, I saw herevery single day.
However, she was chewingfentanyl patches, she was
drinking almost half a bottle ofliquor a day.
Even her family was like, Thisisn't right, Kratom's not what
killed her.
You know, Kratom was what washelping her for a while, but
then she started, you know,doing other stuff as well.
(23:47):
So there's a lot of info outthere.
There's a lot of info.
You just kind of have to digthrough the weeds to to really
find it.
Jordan (23:56):
And and you do an amazing job on your TikTok page.
I use it as a resource all thetime.
Like I said, I could I couldbinge on you and you figured out
TikTok too.
How to make it engaging, how tomake it informative, like how
to talk the language.
When I first started watchingyou, and you could say seven my
(24:16):
my my my dragony, yeah, mytragedy.
I'm like, how is he doing allthese big words?
Um you you answered kind of myquestion.
So I had interviewed a lady whowas convinced that her son OD'd
on Kratom, and you kind ofanswered that already.
That was my serious question.
(24:37):
And it she's really advocatingbecause they called it
Kratom-related deaths in in theplaces in Florida.
And I think Florida's gettingthe most attention because
there's the most common Kratombars down there.
It's it's more out loud.
I feel like people aren'tnoticing in the smoke shops.
(24:59):
It's it's it's blowing my mind,and I'm trying to raise
awareness in our communitybecause it's the same smoke
shops that are probably sellingweed behind the counter to the
kids and all the things, right?
So it kind of all goestogether.
So do you foresee with what youknow?
Because I I get the senseyou're involved in the
legislator.
(25:20):
Okay, I just can't talk at all.
Pay attention to the laws andall of that.
Kratoms, what, legal in like 10or 12 states right now?
Bobbie Malatesta (25:32):
Oh, so it's uh illegal, it was illegal in six
for a very, very long time.
Now it's illegal in seven.
Like Louisiana just passed,just passed legislation not too
long ago, but it's becauselawmakers are confusing seven
hydroxy with normal Kratom.
And you know, seven hydroxy isa completely different beast.
(25:54):
I I I I would say I'm notsaying it doesn't have
therapeutic value, you know,down the road, especially in
like a medical setting.
However, the companies thatmake seven hydroxies they don't
want to take the 10 years ittakes to get a new drug to the
market and spend the billionsand billions of dollars.
They would rather just sell itunder the guise of Kratom now
(26:15):
and make millions.
I mean, I think they'reprofiting probably 8 million per
week now, maybe 10 million perper per week, pro like
profiting.
And you know, it's profitingoff of people's suffering.
I mean, I I get so manymessages from 70H companies,
please sell our products, pleasesell our products.
And I just tell them kiss myfat ass.
Like every time I just I justcan't do it.
(26:36):
I I can't morally do it.
I sleep well at night being aKratom vendor, I would never
sleep well at night being aseven hydroxy dealer.
Is I, you know, there's adifference between being a
dealer and a vendor, in in myopinion.
But yeah, if I could go back tothe the mom you were talking
about real quick, and I mean nodisrespect to any person that's
(26:57):
lost a child, that's not myintention whatsoever.
I mean, I've I've lost met manyfriends to to substances, but
but I've always wanted to askthe question is like there's
never been a public healthcrisis from natural kratom in
Southeast Asia.
There's never been one death inSoutheast Asia from Kratom, and
(27:20):
Kratom's been used for athousand years going back to the
Dyak tribe.
I just I want to know, doesKratom automatically become
deadly once it crosses theborder into um America?
That's just one question that Ihave.
Or is it the fact that they'remaking these products that say
(27:41):
Kratom, but they're they're not,they're taking Kratom out of
its natural form, they're doingstuff to the plant that never
nature never intended it to be.
An example would be the FDAcounts nine deaths in Sweden as
Kratom deaths.
There was a product calledKrypton, where a company, Kratom
(28:01):
Company, I should I'm sayingthat in quotes because they're
just not good people.
They they mix Odesmethyltramadol into the Kratom,
and nine people died.
And Odes methyltramadol is anextremely powerful deadly
opioid.
And but this has been proventhat Odes methyltramadol was
mixed in, and the FDA stillcounts these as nine Kratom
(28:23):
deaths, you know.
And Kratom is always the lowhang hanging fruit, always,
always, always.
Like, for example, the thelatest poison control data said
that there was 1117 calls thatwere Kratom that that were for
Kratom.
But people don't realize, like,so many people underreport what
(28:44):
they're actually doing.
Like, if you're in a situationlike with your mom's there and
you're freaking out, like you'reoverdosing, it's like, oh yeah,
I took Kratom, it I bought itat the store.
You know, it's so much easierto say than I was doing fentanyl
or I was doing cocaine or allthat type of stuff, and that's
what people don't re realize.
But also, if you just look atthe the data at itself, you
(29:07):
know, there's 20 million Kratomusers in the United States.
If there was 1,117 calls, thatmeans you have a better chance
of getting struck by lightningbecause that's it was like one
in 17,000 if it's out of 20million, but getting struck by
lightning is one out of 15,300.
Like these are things are muchscarier in headlines when
there's not context in ininvolved, you know, they'll be
(29:29):
like, Oh, Kratomhospitalizations are on the
rise.
Numbers are much scarierwithout context, and that's what
people don't want to actuallytalk about.
They'll just take a headlineand they'll run with it.
Like, oh, Kratomhospitalizations are on the
rise.
However, if you talk to all theKratom experts, these doctors
(29:50):
that all they do is studyKratom, like, yes, people are
going, but they're going forrapid heart rate, they're going
for dizziness, they're going forit's the exact opposite.
It of what we see from likeKratom, or they'll go for like
blood pressure issues, and allthese things can happen with
caffeine.
You know, that's why people goto the hospital for caffeine
because Kratom does havestimulant-like properties to it.
(30:13):
But the the media makes it seemlike people are coming in with
blue lips or not breathing.
You know, kratom doesn'tactivate the rest in two beta
pathway in the brain, which iswhat causes respiratory
depression from from fromopioids.
It can't be done.
It can't be done.
Study after study, so many ratstudies giving giving rats 400
times the amount that a personcould reasonably consume.
(30:36):
And all of them got reallygroggy but woke back up, you
know?
That that that's the thing thatpeople don't realize, and
that's why Kratom is such avaluable tool.
That I'll say it, I'll say it amillion times.
I don't recommend it foreveryone, but like my channel is
to educate it for the peoplethat truly need it.
Jordan (30:54):
So you can't OD on Kratom.
Is that a true statement?
Bobbie Malatesta (30:58):
Well, so it depends on what you mean by by
OD.
What we mean by O D whatrespiratory depression, no.
Jordan (31:07):
Is that what it is when you OD from heroin?
Is it respiratory depression?
Bobbie Malatesta (31:12):
Yes, you actually, yeah, you stop
breathing breathing.
That that that's what happens,and it's the the the rest in two
beta pathway in the brain iswhat kratom doesn't cause.
That's what when people getrespiratory depression from
opioids, they they they stopbreathing, but kratom has been
proven that doesn't happen.
However, with 70H, respiratorydepression is possible.
(31:33):
Dr.
Chris McCurdy from theUniversity of Florida, who I
flew out to his lab and Iinterviewed him for about two
hours, he was saying how in ratsthey did studies where it's
called 7-hydroxy versusmetragenine, which is kratom,
it's bi-directional breathing inrats, is what the study was
(31:55):
called because huge doses ofmitragenine actually increased
the breathing of the rats.
Seven hydroxy actuallydecreased the breathing of the
rats, and that was they wereable to reverse those effects
with Narcan, basically.
Jordan (32:11):
That was my question.
I wrote down Narcan.
So 7-0 was reversed with Narcanbecause the symptom was there
to reverse.
Yes, Kratom Narcan wouldn'twork because you're not going to
be in that state because Kratomdoesn't create that state.
Bobbie Malatesta (32:29):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
It in metrogenine, it increasedthe breathing.
And with seven hydroxy, itcaused respiratory depression.
And when you have two productslabeled Kratom, like that's
that's the really, really scarypart that most people just don't
understand.
And again, many people thinkI'm so anti-70H, I'm just
anti-lying to people like thatbecause people need to make
(32:53):
informed decisions for for forfor themselves.
And when you're giving peoplewrong information, they can't
make informed decisions.
And that's what really isirritating to me.
Jordan (33:03):
Well, I appreciate you informing me because I've been
of the school from the oneguest, you know, having the fear
when she told me that there wasover 700 Kratom-related deaths.
I've been invoking fear in meand my guests.
Like, stay away from it.
Like, I'll only sell my TR9,just the cans, because I feel
(33:27):
like that's just right.
And because I have enoughexperience now with it myself.
But now I'm only as good as theinformation I have, right?
So you're giving me moreinformation to at least share
this to speak a little bit moreeducated.
Cause I would have because ofyou, I knew there was danger.
Like to me, danger was 7-0.
(33:48):
I don't like the tactics to getit into my store that I've
experienced.
Um it's just scary.
Like I'm trying to think of abig gas station chain out your
way.
So imagine walking in, becausethis just happened in our
biggest one of our biggestchains.
(34:10):
It says create 'em.
It wasn't even in a case thefirst month.
It's on the counter, so youcould just reach it.
It wasn't secure, and it wasseven ounces.
And I I asked the cashiers, I'mlike, what is this?
I don't know.
$55 for like eight tablets.
I said, so they check the ageverification on it.
(34:33):
And I said, All right, well,I'm gonna see how many packets
of this I could steal and walkout with because age
verification buttons don't meanshit if the kids are coming in
and taking it right off thecounter.
So now there's now they're in abox, but the top of the box
says Kratom.
Yeah, and I'm like, this ain'tKratom.
(34:54):
And the poor employees, like, Ilove the employees, and it's I
know it's not them.
Their district manager is evensober and he's against it, but
it's a corporate freaking thing,which surprises me that
corporate wouldn't be doing moredue diligence.
No matter corporate's usually alittle bit more structured from
my experience and would stayoff of the fence.
(35:17):
That I'm fucking livid aboutthis being accessible.
Bobbie Malatesta (35:21):
Yeah, it it's it's crazy.
You know, even I always tellpeople there's three different
products there's there's regularKratom, which is just the
powder and the leaves.
The only product you canconsider real Kratom is dried
kratom powder or fresh kratomleaves.
That's the only thing.
Then you have kratom extracts,which are a totally different
product.
It's just like if you think ofregular Kratom as coffee, then
(35:44):
extracts are caffeine pills.
No one would ever say thatcaffeine pills and coffee are
the same product, they'rethey're not, they're completely
different.
Most people don't have issuesdrinking coffee.
But when you hear of peoplehaving serious issues with
caffeine, man went to thehospital from caffeine, it's not
because he drank a bunch ofcoffee, it's because he was
doing caffeine powder or becausehe was doing caffeine pills and
(36:04):
it's so concentrated and he didmore than he's supposed to.
And then you have sevenhydroxy, which is like meth,
basically.
Like they're it's you know,that they're all stimulants,
yes, but they're very, very,very, very different.
And again, I I have to say itevery time.
I I don't want to make it seemlike seven hydroxy is the is the
devil, but the way that they'representing it and the way that
(36:27):
there's access to it is, and theway that they're lying to it,
it's it could be amazing in likea hospital setting for
end-of-life care for people inextreme pain under like the
right settings, but like you'reliterally handing people a
loaded gun.
Like these people that you weretalking about at the at this at
the gas station, they don'tknow what they're doing, they're
just told to sell it, you know.
(36:49):
And the same thing with smokeshops, they're just it's kratom,
it's better, it's faster, it'sstronger.
You know, where where I go, youknow, I went to Indonesia where
where they use Kratom for athousand years, and they're
like, no, nature made it better.
Let's go slower, you know,let's go back to what actually
we've been using for so long.
You know, people in inIndonesia are completely against
(37:11):
seven hydroxy.
When I went to Indonesia and Igot picked up by my guide, the
first question he is is he saidis what do you think about seven
hydroxy in in America?
You know, I was like, it's notgood, it's not good.
So it's it's making a worldwideimpact.
And these people, even thepeople that own the companies,
like I've read their leaked eattheir leaked info, like through
email saying we created amonster, like they they they
(37:34):
know what they did, you know,and they'll they'll always say,
Oh, but overdoses are down by24% because of 7 hydroxy.
They're they're comparing it toCOVID data.
Like, yes, of course, morepeople overdose during COVID
because we're all lacked lockedinside, we were forced to wear
masks, you couldn't hug yourfamily, you couldn't do any of
(37:54):
that type of stuff.
So, of course, overdoses werewere going to be up back then.
Um, it's just yeah, most peoplehaven't spent as much time in
the Kratom world as I have, theyhaven't really educated
themselves on the nuances.
You know, I just released abook, it's called The Truth
About Kratom, Lifesaving Plantor Botanical Menace, where it's
(38:15):
so many pay pages in A throughZ, The Wrongful Deaths, like
everything you could imagine inone book.
It's that book.
And, you know, just I alwaystry to put myself in the shoes
of people that don't know aboutKratom, that are just they're
trying to learn about it, andI'm trying to steer them in the
right direction.
If this is a good fit for youor if it isn't a good fit for
(38:38):
you, you know, sales aren'teverything, people always come
first, and that's what I feellike seven hydroxy companies
have forgotten.
Jordan (38:47):
For sure.
Jordan, is there anything thatI haven't asked out of curiosity
that you want to make sure thatthe listeners know and hear
from you?
Bobbie Malatesta (38:57):
No, I I just think that seven, I mean, I
think that Kratom is alife-saving plant.
I think it's verymisunderstood, and in some ways
it's reefer madness, like allover again.
It's kind of what like happenedto Kava in the 1990s, as I'm
sure you're you're aware.
I I went to Fiji to source Kavaback in 2019, and you know, I
was talking to a lot ofsuppliers over there, and
(39:19):
they're going through the samething.
They went through the samething the creative industry is
going through now.
Uh like eventually it all gotworked out.
But I mean, there's still BSabout Kava saying it causes
liver damage, all that type ofstuff, you know.
And I'm sure you are very wellaware that that the national
institute, not not that theNational Institute of Drug Abuse
said the the chance of liverdamage from Kava was one in one
(39:41):
million, you know.
It's yeah, it's like you haveto put things in in perspective.
But I think Kratom's alife-saving plant for the people
that that need it.
I just think it's verymisunderstood.
And in I always say tell peopleKratom is like a hammer, it
could build you a beautiful homeor you could hit yourself in
the thumb.
You know, those are it's thesame tool, it's just how you use
(40:02):
the the tool for most people.
It's a in myself, like myselfthat were in in substance use
disorder for a long time, it'sit's an amazing tool that can
help them gain stability forsome people in substance use
disorder, a very smallpercentage.
It they can run with it in thewrong way.
Jordan (40:22):
So is it does it uh do this?
You when you said that Istarted thinking about suboxin.
Like, how would you compareKratom to Suboxen?
Like, same job, different road,like same destination.
Bobbie Malatesta (40:38):
Yes, I I would say, you know, because suboxin
has been a life-savingmedication for a lot of people,
however, there are side effectsof it.
Some people don't like it, somepeople love being on suboxin.
It kind of just depends.
I would say Kratom is muchgentler than suboxin.
I I I I was on suboxin and Ifelt like a zombie, you know.
I had some teeth issues withkratom, nothing like that has
(41:01):
ever really happened to me.
I just feel normal.
I I'm physically dependent onKratom, but that's a huge
different than huge differencethan being in addiction, you
know.
A lot of people are aredependent on things, but they're
not addicted to it.
Like my mother-in-law takesantidepressants, never done a
drug in her life.
But if she misses her dose ofantidepressants, she does not
(41:22):
feel well at all.
And it's not pretty to see.
The same thing can happen withKratom.
However, the actual people ofgetting withdrawals from Kratom
is relatively low compared tothe general pop population of
people that take Kratom.
Like typically less than 10% ofpeople experience withdrawals.
But in that 10% of people, somepeople experience severe
withdrawals, like severewithdrawals.
(41:44):
However, for most, they're mildto moderate.
The the statistics, the datalooks a lot different if you're
looking at extracts.
But again, those are acompletely different product,
you know.
Like we sell some extracts, butwe try to stay people away from
it.
The only reason we carry thatis because some people have gut
issues and can't consume thepowder.
So doing an extract for them isjust um easier, but we try to
(42:07):
stay try try to not let peoplego down that road for the most
part.
There's there's alwaysexceptions to the rule, however,
when it comes to Kratom, therule should just be like stick
to pure leaf powder, don't messwith any other stuff, you know.
Jordan (42:20):
Yeah, the powder.
So the first time I took it, Ididn't realize the dosing at
all.
This is my ignorance.
I took the powder to see whatit was all about, and I measured
it out like it was proteinpowder for a chocolate shake.
I thought it was gonna taste myshake.
Oh, it was horrendous, and mystomach hurt for days.
Bobbie Malatesta (42:43):
Oh, yeah, I'm sure.
I'm sure that's yeah, that see,that's one of the things with
Kratom I love too, because ithas built-in defense mechanisms.
If you take too much kratom,you're gonna throw up and you're
gonna get something called thewobbles where you get really,
really, really dizzy and youdon't feel good.
But if you take too muchopioids, you know, you might not
make it.
So that's why I think Kratom isis is a good tool for most some
(43:08):
people.
Some people, I should say.
I don't mean to say mostpeople, because most people
don't have a need for Kratom,but for the people that do, it's
very niche, but it's verylife-saving within that niche.
Jordan (43:19):
Yeah.
Well, I tell you, you are mypeople, you are open-minded,
you're informative, you'repassionate, and I really
appreciate all that about you,Jordan.
You're helping me and myaudience more than I can
explain.
Like, who's the guru on Kratom?
It was you.
It was like hands down, and youdon't need the doctor before
(43:40):
after your name, but you havegathered all this information,
and the way that you share it isamazing because it could be
received in a really good way.
Oh, thank you.
You taking the time, buddy.
It means the world to me.
Bobbie Malatesta (43:53):
Yeah, of course.
I'll I'll send you a copy of mymy my my book.
I have a PDF version right now,it's totally free.
And then we're gonna have likeactual hard copies that I'll be
selling on Amazon, but I'll sendyou one for free, the hard
copy, just so you have it andyou can read it in in your spare
time.
Jordan (44:11):
That sounds good.
And uh we'll look at gettingsome in the store to sell so
people can have access to ittoo.
Bobbie Malatesta (44:16):
Oh, that'd be cool.
Thank you so much.
Jordan (44:18):
Yeah, yeah.
All right, well, I can'tpromise you won't ever hear from
me again, but I have to be rein here.
Bobbie Malatesta (44:25):
Yeah, we we we just scratched the surface.
There's so much more.
So if you want me back again, Ican definitely do that, so it's
no problem.
Jordan (44:33):
Get things started.
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