June 26, 2025 • 55 mins
Ever held onto a grudge only to realize it was weighing you down more than the person who hurt you? In this illuminating conversation with our friend Deanna, a certified faith-based counselor, we unpack what forgiveness truly means and why it's critical for our emotional health.
Forgiveness isn't about pretending nothing happened. As Deanna explains, it's making "a commitment to no longer hold the offender to a standard of moral liability before you." In other words, it's letting them off YOUR hook of justice – not eliminating consequences altogether. This distinction completely changed our understanding of what it means to forgive.
The cost of unforgiveness is steep. Deanna walks us through the emotional ladder we climb when we refuse to forgive: from hurt to anger to resentment to bitterness and finally to hatred. Meanwhile, the person who wronged us is often "tripping through the tulips," completely unaffected by our internal turmoil. When we grasp this reality, forgiveness becomes an act of self-liberation rather than a gift to the offender.
We tackle tough questions you've probably wrestled with: Should we forgive people who don't think they've done anything wrong? Is "forgive and forget" actually possible? How do you forgive someone who's no longer in your life? And how does setting boundaries play into the forgiveness process? Deanna's insights on these questions are both practical and profound.
Whether you're struggling to forgive someone who deeply hurt you, wondering if you should reconcile after betrayal, or simply curious about what healthy forgiveness really looks like, this conversation offers a roadmap for moving forward. As Deanna reminds us, "Forgiveness is worth it. Forgiveness is necessary. All relationships flourish with it."
Amy, Kitty & Stacey
P.S. Isn't our intro music great?! Yah, we think so too. Thank you, Ivy States for "I Got That Wow".
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, all right.
Ooh, look I got that.
Wow, who wants some heads upright now?
We got that.
Turn it up loud.
I know you're wondering how Igot that.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Wow, here I go, here I go, coming.
I can't ever stop.
I'm a tour de force running.
Get me to the top.
I don't need an invitation.
I'm about to start acelebration.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
There she is.
Hello friends, good evening,hello, good evening.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Good morning.
Or whatever it is that you'relistening.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
No matter what day or time.
We hope everyone is well.
We are here for another episodeof Three Cocktails In.
Amy Stacey and myself we gatherweekly.
So just a reminder our episodesdrop every Thursday.
They are dropped at the weehours of the morning, so build
us in to your day, on Thursdayor Friday or whenever you might
(01:05):
be listening, and please doshare with your friends.
We cover lots of differenttopics and today's is going to
be great.
Are you guys ready?
Speaker 5 (01:15):
I am.
It's always interesting to getsuper psyched to talk to
somebody, especially somebodylike our guest today.
Yes, people that would beapprehensive about it, but not
us.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
We are brave souls.
We are brave souls, well, andso you know we.
We've been doing this now forwhat?
Two and a half years, and oneand a half.
Okay, we're coming on two years.
Okay, we're coming on two yearsand it is not easy to come up
with topics.
So we have planning sessions,the three of us have planning
(01:55):
sessions, and we dump a wholebunch of topics and then we we
whittled them down.
Um, and some of these moremeatier, some of these meatier
topics really do requirebringing somebody from the
outside in, because we'recurious about it, like we're not
the experts here.
We don't have this expertise.
So that's what we're doingagain today, and we're just
(02:19):
always so thrilled to bring inpeople who can help guide us and
teach us some of these things.
So today we're going to betalking about forgiveness.
Forgiveness is a word that wehear often, but I think few of
us really understand what itasks of us.
(02:40):
Right, we've all been hurt,we've all been betrayed, we've
all struggled to let go ofsomething.
If you can say yes to thosethings, even just one of them,
this episode is going to be foryou.
So we are bringing back ourfriend Deanna.
(03:01):
Doctor Deanna is a certifiedfaith-based counselor.
We've brought her in to talkabout what forgiveness really is
, what it isn't, and how it cantransform our emotional health,
our relationships and our future.
(03:22):
So this is going to be tender,I think, and it might just be
the change that some of us needfor healing.
So, with all of that being said, deanna, welcome back to three
cocktails in.
We are thrilled that you'rehere.
Speaker 6 (03:42):
Oh, thanks so much.
Hello everyone, glad to be back.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well, thank you for your time.
I know that you are stretchedthin with your clients and such,
so we appreciate the time.
Of course, this is a topic thatyou dig into, I'm sure, on a
regular basis.
So let's start at thefoundation and really talk about
(04:12):
what forgiveness is and why isit important it's an important
question first, and then I'llsegue into what it is.
Speaker 6 (04:30):
I think forgiveness is important because it's really
truly the only way to havecompletely unhinged and
life-giving relationships, andso if there's ever a barrier
because I've hurt somebody orsomebody has hurt me, that's
literally an impasse in howintimate, how trusting, how
respectful, how transparentwe're going to be in this
(04:53):
relationship.
And so I think one of the mainreasons forgiveness is so
important is because it createsthis bridge, this pathway for
both of us in relationship toeasily move back and forth, and
if we can do that, then respectand intimacy and transparency
continues to build.
(05:14):
Now, if I'm going to be selfish, in my view of forgiveness, it
also aids me in emotionalfreedom.
I don't feel hampered, I don'tfeel bound and anchored down by
something that might've occurredtwo weeks ago, two years ago,
(05:34):
20 years ago, because I've movedin forgiveness, at least in my
attitude, maybe not in actionstowards the person who offended,
but at least in my attitude.
I've released this.
So for me personally, there'sthis emotional freedom, but I
also think there's mentalfreedom.
You're not chewing on this andconstantly obsessing for lack of
(06:00):
a better word about how painfulit was, how unfair it was, and
if we're talking aboutforgiveness because somebody has
actually really hurt us oroffended us or wronged us, we're
not talking about forgivenessbecause you took my parking spot
at the grocery store, and so Ijust think there's real ability
(06:25):
for us to build a bridgerelationally that just keeps
expanding and widening andlengthening if we practice
forgiveness.
I think that's the main reasonwhy it's so important.
Now, what it is, it's prettycostly, hard and requires a
(06:48):
whole lot of humility.
In counseling, I tell my clientsall the time to think of
forgiveness as a legal term, andso it's you, the person who's
been offended, making acommitment to no longer hold the
offender to a standard of moralliability before you.
Now that seems a little heavy,so let's lighten that up.
(07:13):
It simply means that I'm goingto let the offender who hurt me
off my hook of justice and I'mgoing to put them on a different
hook of justice, mostly becauseI'm vengeful, I'm a horrible
judge, particularly if you'vecrossed me in any way.
(07:35):
I would love to say that evenas a counselor, I'm just super
reasonable, super objective,quick to let you off the hook if
you've crossed me.
That's not true.
That's just flat out not true.
Ask my husband ask my friends,ask my kids, and so it's us
(07:58):
making a commitment, the peoplewho have been hurt, making a
commitment to the people whohurt us.
The people who have been hurt,making a commitment to the
people who hurt us.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
That we will remove them from moral liability before
us Now.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
I think there are some requirements We'll probably
get into that later about theperson who's actually offended
me.
They need to be taking someownership and doing their part,
and we'll get into that.
But at at just first glance,it's simply a commitment that
I'm making to let you off myhook of justice.
So, because I'm terrible at it.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
yeah, what happens?
What happens when we don'tforgive, when we don't forgive?
Speaker 6 (08:44):
Oh, in the short term you've got a really cruddy
attitude In the short term.
So if I don't forgive today,today my attitude turns.
I'm probably going to get alittle short and snippy with
other people.
I probably have a little bit ofa chip on my shoulder and an
(09:05):
edge in my tone and in how Iperceive you.
For sure, if you're theoffender, but even just people
in general, over the long termsay months, years you move up an
emotional ladder, for lack of abetter word.
So think of a ladder that hasfive rungs.
The first rung is hurt, thesecond rung is anger, the third
(09:29):
rung is resentment, the fourthrung is bitterness, the fifth
rung is hatred.
If I do not practice forgiveness, I move up that ladder
emotionally very quickly and ifI'm nursing you off the hook, I
become this very resentful,bitter, hateful person.
(09:51):
And we would all we willprobably be able to right now in
our mind's eye think aboutsomebody in our circle that
we're like oh, I think that'swhat they are.
I think they're hurtful, I meanhateful, and it's because
they've got this edge and theyview all of life as terrible
(10:17):
because of that one hurt andoffense or wrong that was
committed against them maybe sixmonths ago, six years ago, 26
years ago.
So yeah, if we don't practiceforgiveness in the practical, it
just eats at us and erodes us.
But in the relational,practical people don't want to
(10:41):
be close to those of us thatdon't practice forgiveness.
We're not safe, we're nottrustworthy, we're not
dependable, we're not soft andwelcoming and inviting.
And who wants to be close tosomebody who's functioning that
way habitually?
(11:01):
Right?
So I think it's pretty costly.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
I've thought in certain circumstances that by
holding onto a grudge or notletting it go, not offering
forgiveness, you're choosing topunish yourself Because, like
you said, you become bitter andhateful.
Well, the person who offendedyou?
(11:31):
They're long out of the picture.
Right Now, I'm doing this tomyself, which is a double down
of the initial hurt and thewrong, but now I'm just letting
it fester.
Yes, you know, not only I lovethe analogy of building the
bridge, especially when theperson who has hurt you is in
(11:53):
your daily life, but also justto you know, make your.
You've got to at some point,choose to make yourself feel
better and, hanging on to it, itI mean it doesn't affect them,
you're the only one thatcontinues to get affected by it.
(12:14):
Now, that's really simplistic,obviously really simplistic, but
Well and I do think.
Speaker 6 (12:21):
I think it gives them power.
So so, to kind of expand onwhat you've said, amy, how I
practice it or how I movetowards it is going to be
(12:50):
slightly different.
I'm going to have to nuancethat based on the scope of
what's been done to me.
So I'm using a range of wordsbecause I certainly don't want
to level the playing field.
That all hurt feels the same.
That's just not true.
However, I do think if we'regoing to hold on to something
(13:12):
we're giving the person whoprobably is just tripping
through the tulips like they'regoing about their life, they're
thinking everything is fine andI'm giving them all of this
emotional power.
In my life I'm grading everysingle decision based on them
and the effect of what they'vedone to me.
I'm adjusting who I socializewith, where I socialize, how I
(13:50):
spend my money or how I makelife decisions, many times based
on their past, hurt, offense orwrong against me.
And meanwhile they're over hereliving their life, having the
time of their life, and so theonly one, as you said, amy, the
only one that's really sufferingis Deanna, because I'm holding
a grudge and I'm nursing a wound, and that's 100% on me.
I can't blame them for that.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
What are so, in order for forgiveness to happen, what
are some of the emotional andrelational prerequisites?
Speaker 6 (14:25):
What are some of the emotional and relational
prerequisites?
Well, I think, first of all, tobe humble.
So I'm going to speak from thevantage point of we're the ones
that have been wronged.
Right now, I think, if you'rethe one that's been wronged, you
have to start from a place ofhumility, and that's really hard
when you've been hurt in someway or taken advantage of, or
(14:49):
betrayed, or, literally, aninjustice has occurred, a law
has been broken.
I think it's difficult for usto move out of the realm of that
victimization and the fact thatmy life has just been altered
by what you've done on somelevel, and move into the realm
of that victimization and thefact that my life has just been
altered by what you've done onsome level, and move into the
realm of hey, deanna, slow yourroll.
(15:11):
Given the right circumstances,you might have made this same
choice towards somebody.
So let's just level the playingfield.
We're all struggling, weak,broken humans.
Let's take a breath here, andthat's what I mean by humility,
instead of just running in tobang some heads together.
(15:35):
Get justice.
Make sure everybody knows howawful Kitty was because of what
she did to me.
It's me pausing and trying tobring myself back to a place of
wait a minute.
We're all on pretty levelground here, so how should I
move forward with this?
So I think humility is one ofthe prerequisites.
(15:57):
I think another prerequisite isthat, man, I've got to be
committed to relationship overmy own personal benefit.
We might need to nuance that,because I do believe that even
when I practice forgiveness,there might be times that the
relationship can't continueexactly like it used to, based
(16:18):
on the wrong or the number oftimes that same wrong has been
committed against me, in otherwords, if there's a pattern, if
this person isn't remorseful.
So there's lots of variables tothat.
But I think initially I need tobe committed to the
relationship over to Anna, andagain that goes back to humility
(16:42):
.
The only way I'm going to becommitted to I'm sorry, kitty,
I'm just going to throw youunder the bus the whole podcast
Kitty's in my relationship beingrestored because she wronged me
, is if I'm thinking about therelationship more than I'm
thinking about how you hurt meand how it affected me.
And then just a couple otherthings.
(17:02):
I think we have to be realizingthat it's going to cost us
something.
Forgiveness is costly.
It usually means that I have toput down my staff of.
I will get justice.
I will avenge this and I'mgoing to have to lay that aside
(17:38):
for the sake of moving towardssomebody who is showing sincere
and genuine remorse and regretover what she did or said, or
didn't do or didn't say.
Sometimes the absence ofsomething can be just as hurtful
as the presence of something.
So, yeah, I think those threepoints are important.
The only other thing I wouldadd to it is that I think it's
also important to realizeforgiveness is not the absence
of a consequence.
And so, when you're thinking ofa prerequisite to forgiveness,
(18:00):
I think it's easy for us tobelieve that if we're truly
forgiving somebody, we're justletting them off the hook, and
you know well what I mean.
I forgave them and so I, I justI, I I'm not going to hold them
responsible, we're not going toask the judge to throw the book
at them, we're not going to holdtheir feet to the fire.
I think that's really foolish.
Yeah, for a couple of reasons.
(18:23):
There is a natural cause andeffect in place in life.
Every choice has a consequenceor a reaction.
Every choice has a response,and if I'm going to try to short
circuit that in somebody else'slife, then I don't get to
complain when they keeprepeating that same stupid or
(18:48):
hurtful pattern, because Ijumped in and I tried to cut off
the cause and effect.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
Oh, go ahead.
So walk me through that lastpoint again me through that last
point again.
Speaker 6 (19:12):
So in some ways, forgiveness is one part,
consequence is another.
Except I'm saying that it's thesame coin.
It's just two sides of the coin.
On one side of the coin is megranting forgiveness.
On the other side of the coinis me also understanding that
the consequence is going to helptrain them towards not doing
that again.
Okay, and so forgiveness isn'tme expunging the consequence or
(19:33):
the result of their choice.
It's me not holding themresponsible to my standard of
how good I want to feelemotionally, but instead holding
them to a standard of right,living, good, respectful
behavior, maybe, if a law hasbeen broken, what the legal side
(19:56):
says that they're responsibleto do.
I'm a fan of holding people'sfeet to the fire, because pain
trains us, it motivates us, painchanges us, and I think maybe
one of the misconceptions in ourcurrent culture is that if
you're going to forgive somebody, they're just completely off
(20:18):
all hooks.
No, they're just off my hook.
I'm not going for a pound offlesh because I'm looking to
restore relationship, but youviolate a law.
I'm definitely hoping the judgegoes for a pound of flesh.
You break into my home andcause damage.
(20:39):
I'm definitely going to expectyou to pay for that and make
that right.
I'm still going to forgive you,but you need to be trained
towards not doing that again.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Well, the difference is so.
The difference is right.
You want them to be heldaccountable.
We're just not going to keep itwithin your, you know, thinking
and heart and whatever againstthat person for a long term.
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Yes, yeah, which, stacey, since you're bringing
that up, is really part of athreefold commitment that I
think forgiveness is on ourparts.
If I'm going to grantforgiveness to Kitty because of
what she did to me, I'mliterally telling myself I'm not
going to keep rehearsing thatand reminding myself in my own
(21:35):
head, but I'm also not going tokeep reminding Kitty.
Well, you know, you know, lastweek when we did coffee, you
said I don't know if I want tobe in that position again.
Maybe we shouldn't do coffee.
You said I don't know if I wantto be in that position again.
Maybe we shouldn't do coffee,you know, in a couple of weeks.
So I'm reminding her.
Well, again, we're thinkingbridge building.
I'm not supposed to be puttingdown major obstacles that you
(21:57):
have to jump over every singletime we socialize.
But I think the finalcommitment is that I'm not going
to bring it up to Amy andStacey either.
So, you know, maybe we're allhanging out together and Kitty
gets up to go to the bathroomand I'm like guys, I know that
you weren't there last time wedid coffee, but I just can't.
(22:19):
I just I got to tell somebodybecause it just hurt me so badly
.
And then I'm rehearsingsomething that I thought or I
would say Kitty thought I hadcovered with forgiveness.
Now I'm bringing it up to otherpeople.
And so I totally agree with whatyou said, stacey.
(22:40):
I'm still asking for somebodyto hold them responsible.
I'm just not going to be theone doing it within my own heart
and mind, because I can't betrusted to do that and still
function well.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
So if you're doing those things, it's a sign that
you really haven't forgiven.
It's a sign that you reallyhaven't forgiven, correct, okay,
so this kind of gets to the oldsaying forgive and forget.
As human beings, it's hard.
(23:20):
Well, what are your thoughtsabout that saying?
That saying is awesome.
Speaker 6 (23:24):
It's hard to forget.
Everybody listening to thepodcast.
Please don't use that saying.
It's a terrible saying.
First of all, it's not evenpossible.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
So there have been so many studies over the years
through the decades, about howour brains retain information
and, with just a couple ofpatterns of practice, these
neural pathways form.
And now, habitually, we justrespond to life a certain way.
We just ingrained a pattern.
(23:57):
Well, what is that?
That's my brain going.
Hey, deanna, you're going toneed every ounce of help you can
get to remember important stuff, and so I'm just going to help
you remember all the importantstuff.
Well, it's really important.
If I'm hurt, if somebody hashurt me or wronged me or
violated me, that's important.
(24:19):
So, guess what I do, I rememberit.
And so there's a difference.
There's the difference betweenremembering and rehearsing.
I remember a whole lot ofreally awful, painful, hurtful
stuff that's been done to meover the years by people, but I
(24:40):
don't sit around rehearsing itin my memory bank, but I don't
sit around rehearsing it in mymemory bank Almost like
rehashing.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
Yes, yeah, going over it again and again and again,
yeah, All that does.
Speaker 6 (25:00):
I can't speak for everybody, but I'm a pretty
fiery person on a good day.
So if I'm sitting thererehearsing and rehashing ugly
stuff like um you're, you're notgoing to want to park near me,
you certainly don't want to lookat me funny and I probably
should like put duct tape overmy mouth because something is
(25:21):
coming out and something isgoing down, okay.
And then I've blown up multiplerelationships in a series of
maybe minutes or hours, becausemy mind was full of I can't
believe Kitty did that.
And then it just bleh.
It comes out and it shouldn't,because it doesn't serve the
(25:44):
relationship at all.
All Confrontation does.
But we're not talking aboutconfrontation, we're talking
about rehashing something thatKitty's not being given an
opportunity to answer for.
Speaker 5 (26:05):
So this might be off kind of the outline that we
talked about, but what do you?
How do you approach forgivenessto somebody who has moved on?
I mean, they've really moved on.
They're not really.
You don't really have thatrelationship with them anymore,
and not just because of this oneincident, but just because you
(26:29):
know life circumstance, whatever.
How do you approach forgivenesswhen there isn't necessarily
that bridge or relationshipyou're trying to focus on?
Speaker 6 (26:41):
Yeah, great question.
So I encourage people to thinkof forgiveness as two aspects,
two components.
One is your attitude.
That's an internal personalthing that Amy, stacey, kitty,
deanna are all working throughand all working out up here so
that we are not holding onto agrudge, we're not nursing this.
(27:05):
The second aspect is behavioror verbiage.
Second aspect is behavior orverbiage.
And I tell people all the timelisten, you're not allowed ever
to have an attitude ofunforgiveness.
(27:25):
You're just, you're not allowed, because it's a barrier to
relationship and we're supposedto be living in relationships
and we're supposed to be livingin relationships.
However, I might not be allowedto verbalize or live out my
forgiveness, and there'd be acouple of reasons for that.
One is maybe the person is nolonger in my life and there
(27:46):
might not be wisdom in invitingthem back into my life, for a
variety of reasons.
There also might not becapability of inviting them back
into my life.
For a variety of reasons.
There also might not becapability of inviting them back
in.
You know, if they've moved away, I've lost touch.
I couldn't even find them onsocial media, okay, well, now
Deanna has to believe that she'snot forgiving because I just
can't tell you I forgive you.
No, I can still do it in myattitude and let you off that
(28:11):
hook, so to speak, of my moraljudgment.
But I also think it matters thatsometimes people don't care
that they hurt us.
Yeah, and no offense.
But if you don't care, I'm notgoing to tell you verbally that
(28:31):
you're forgiven, because Iactually don't think I can cover
your forgiveness verbally or inbehavior until you take
ownership for the fact that youdid something wrong.
Yeah, I just think it cheapensthe amount of hurt that you've
caused and I think it cheapensthe level at which we ask people
(28:55):
to be held responsible.
So I'm going to use a reallyextreme example.
If you violate my children asan adult or as a teenager, if
you violate my kids as an adultor as a teenager, if you violate
my kids and I'm churning insideas a mom and my kids are
(29:15):
churning and and they're sittingin counseling and they're
having all of the side effectsof the child who's been violated
, my life's in upheaval.
I think lots of times peopleare prompted to go to that
person and say you know what, Iforgive you Because I, as the
(29:36):
mom, feel terrible inside, feelterrible statistically.
Now I'm leaning on statistics.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Statistically they don't care, and so now I'm
letting them off a hook thatthey don't even think they need
to be on.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
So they're like well, thanks, deanna, but I didn't
think I, you know, I didn't doanything to your kid.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
So next.
And so now I have no recoursebecause, remember, forgiveness
is making a commitment.
I'm not going to rehash it, I'mnot going to keep reminding the
offender what they did to meand I'm not going to bring it up
(30:24):
to other people.
So now I have no recourse.
And the person who hurt me,violated me, violated my kid,
hurt my kid is just trippingthrough tulips.
Yeah, that's not okay.
And so to go back to yourquestion, amy, or your statement
(30:46):
, I think it matters that in myattitude, I'm always moving
towards a place of hey, deanna,you're a terrible judge, you are
not going to be objective rightnow, because this involves your
child.
You're going for flesh.
You just want to end thisperson.
You have to transfer them tosome other hook of justice, not
(31:10):
yours.
I can do all of that in myattitude, but I'm going to make
a pretty strong statement.
I don't believe we're actuallyallowed to verbally let them off
the hook until they actuallybelieve they're on the hook.
So you know people who writeletters to prisoners and they're
(31:34):
like I just want you to know Iforgive you, I want nothing but
the best for you and I'm likeyou guys save your letters.
No, they need to take ownershipfirst before you let them off
the hook.
I think that's a reallyimportant part of them humbling
themselves and not acknowledgingthe pain they've caused, and I
(32:00):
think we should expect people todo that.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
In those extreme situations like that, I don't
know that I could ever forgivesomeone.
Speaker 6 (32:19):
Yeah, I mean, as we sit here on a podcast, it all
sounds really great in theory,right, because we're not talking
about anything real.
That just happened today, onFather's Day, right?
Not talking about anything real, that just happened today, on
Father's Day.
So, yeah, I hear that and Ithink that's a valid point I'm
going to go back to.
The purpose of forgiveness isfor relational freedom.
(32:46):
This is literally truly thewhole, entire purpose of
forgiveness.
Now, you know, I happen to be afaith-based counselor, so I'm
fully aware that my faith systemstrongly influences how I live
my life.
But even if you don't have afaith system, every single
person on planet Earthunderstands the disconnect and
(33:08):
the tearing that happens in amoment when we hurt each other
and we wrong each other or weviolate or betray each other,
and so the goal is that there'dbe a restoration or a
reconciliation of relationship,but not necessarily only with
(33:29):
that person, but also within me,within Deanna.
I'm being restored, I'm beingreconciled to trusting people
believing the best about aperson wanting to be open and
vulnerable again with a person,a person, and so I understand
(33:55):
that it's really challenging forus to forgive.
It is one of the costliest lifeskills we will ever practice.
But if we don't practice it ithampers all relationships
Because, although I might thinkit's only affecting my
relationship with this personnow, deanna's a little bit
(34:15):
braced for all my otherrelationships.
I'm not actually sure Amy's asnice as she comes across.
Maybe Stacey isn't really ashonest when she tells me how she
feels about me as I think sheis, and it's all because I'm
still over here not grantingforgiveness in my attitude
(34:37):
towards this person who wasn'ttrustworthy, and if I hold on to
that long enough, it changes myattitude towards other people.
I say this in counseling all thetime this is deep end of the
pool life skill this is.
Deanna can't just tread water.
(34:57):
Deanna can't float on her backindefinitely.
I have to develop the skill ofgetting back into the part of
the pool where I can touch or Ican hold on to something, and so
this is deep end of the poolwhere I can touch or I can hold
on to something, and so this isdeep end of the pool skill.
People have to practice it ortheir relationships just
(35:19):
continue to blow up and that'slonely.
Speaker 5 (35:24):
Yeah, I don't.
I don't know if we have time,but maybe this there's a part
two but the flip side asking forforgiveness, oh yeah, which is
a biggie, and you I mean youwant to ask, I know, maybe,
maybe that's a whole.
Maybe that's a part two, becauseI think that that is equally as
(35:48):
hard talking about having tofirst humble yourself.
Equally as hard talking abouthaving to first humble yourself.
Not only are you humblingyourself internally, now you're
going to humble yourself tosomebody else who may or may not
want anything to do with youwhich is why I don't want to
talk about it.
Let's just stay arrogant worksfor me not so much um, yeah, and
(36:08):
assume you're not hurtinganybody.
Speaker 6 (36:12):
Works for me not so much, yeah, yeah.
So you do have to start withhumility Again.
There has to be goodself-assessment of oh my
goodness, deanna, really thatwas completely out of line, that
was disrespectful, that wasrude, that was whatever.
(36:35):
I think there has to behumility and then there has to
be again I'm just going to keepsaying it, telling blue in the
face a commitment to therelationship.
I understand that sometemperaments are like listen,
I've got three friends, I don'tneed four.
The fourth one hurt me, so nowthey're not a friend.
Good, no harm, no foul.
(36:57):
I do understand that sometemperaments aren't as given to
a whole lot of relationship witha whole lot of people.
But unless you're going to be ahermit and live under a rock,
you are in relationship withsomebody and so there does have
to be a commitment to hey,deanna, you were the one that
(37:21):
was out of line.
You're going to need to makethat right.
And it's hard to go to somebodyand say and I believe this is
how forgiveness should be soughtto say, hey, I was unkind when
I, I was rude when I, I wasdisrespectful when I, I was
arrogant when I will you pleaseforgive me, I'm not a fan of I'm
(37:46):
sorry.
I think that cheapens theoffense and what I've done to
you.
I think it minimizes the levelof hurt I've caused.
I say I'm sorry when I run intoyou with my cart at Target.
That's an accident, that's anoops.
But man, if I open my mouth andI, you know, pop off with some
(38:08):
really unkind speech, that wastotal choice and I better care
enough about you to takeownership of that and to
acknowledge how deeply it hurtyou.
Whether I think you're way toosensitive and kind of
emotionally a wuss or not, Ivalue relationship with you and
(38:32):
so if you're saying, deanna,that was really hurtful, or if
I'm knowing it was hurtfulbecause I know Deanna, I just
need to be humble and takeownership for that to maintain
the relationship.
Now, please hear me, ladies, I'mnot talking about somebody who
regularly and routinely, isoverly sensitive and is
(38:55):
regularly coming back to megoing you hurt me when you, you
hurt me when you, you hurt mewhen and everything's hurtful.
Okay, yeah, I'm well, partiallybecause I'm a counselor, but
also maybe partially because ofmy temperament.
I'm not falling on my swordover and over again.
For that we're going to have adifferent type of conversation
and I'm just going to be reallyfrank and very upfront and very
(39:17):
counselor-ish and I'm going toconfront your sensitivity but
that's a separate conversationAmy's bringing up.
Yeah, but then you have to askfor forgiveness too, yeah.
So I'm encouraging us all toremember hey, let's be humble,
let's just be totally willing toadmit I probably did say that I
(39:43):
probably did cause hurt there.
I probably was rude or passive,aggressive or dismissive.
I'd love to think I'm never anyof those things, but that's
just not the truth.
And so if I'm humble and I'mcommitted to the relationship,
(40:03):
it certainly starts as an easierpathway to come back to Amy,
stacey or Kitty and go hey, Iwas really unkind when I said
that when we were at coffee.
Will you please forgive me?
I don't ever want to hurt you.
And then you get to choose ifyou forgive me or if you're like
(40:25):
hey, deanna, you know you'vebeen asking forgiveness for that
thing like every other day.
You've been asking forgivenessfor that thing like every other
day.
It might be time for you to getsome help with that, because
I'm not going to keep grantingforgiveness if you're not
committed to changing.
That's good friendship.
Speaker 5 (40:44):
Yeah, and nearly impossible to get in Minnesota
that type of response back.
You know I mean know, I meanMinnesota thing.
Oh, don't you think that that'dbe really hard for somebody to
say, you know?
Speaker 1 (41:03):
you know, we've had this convert.
Speaker 5 (41:05):
We've had this forgiveness asking back and
forth like this is like timenumber five.
You need to get some help.
I mean, that is, it would be ahard thing to say to someone.
It was oh for sure, for sure.
Which um brings me to my nextquestion.
So you've asked for forgiveness, you have, you've acknowledged
(41:28):
what you've done and you knowthat it was hurtful to them.
And they say to you I justdon't, I don't think this is
going to work for me anymore.
Do you just work again withinyourself to say I've done what I
(41:49):
can, I've acknowledged mybehavior, I'm going to try and
do better with otherrelationships.
This person doesn't want toforgive me for this, or do you?
Do you try again, do you?
Speaker 6 (42:04):
I think it maybe depends on the relationship that
you're, that you have with thisperson and the depth of
investment with this person.
So, if this is a sibling, ifthis is a really close friend
that you've been friends withfor decades, if this is somebody
(42:27):
that you have to work withclosely every day, then, yeah, I
encourage people.
Hey, pull back, give them sometime to process, give them a few
days, give them a few weeks.
And if you're still going, man,no, there's still something
between us.
This has to be made right.
Then re-engage again andprovide yet another opportunity
(42:49):
for that bridge to be laid downwith another whole board.
But if this is not a deep, closefriendship, if this is somebody
that about every two months wecycle into something like this,
or if this is a person who can'tseem to maintain a relationship
(43:13):
, then you're probably not thecommon denominator.
And so, man, if they don't wantto invest, here's the deal.
And please don't hear me, I'mnot trying to sound harsh, but
here's the deal.
I've got lots of people thatwant to invest in me and that I
want to invest in.
There's a reciprocity andrelationship going on.
(43:34):
I can afford for you to walkaway.
I'm not going to like it,deanna's going to grieve, not
only as a counselor, but just asa human.
I want people to get along Goodgrief.
I spend the majority of my weekhelping people get along.
It matters to me, but at theend of the day, if I have to beg
(43:58):
you to work on this, yeah, I'mprobably not going to do that,
because if I care more than youcare, we're probably not good
together.
I need you investing at thesame level I'm investing in If
we're going to be in a mutualrelationship.
I understand some relationshipsare very one-sided and they
(44:21):
have their place, but if this isa person who is regularly
functioning this way, regularlynot granting forgiveness,
regularly thinks everybody elseis the problem and never them,
I'm probably going to let themwalk away, because I've tried
(44:43):
maybe three times, four times,eight times, 25 times and I'm
not getting anywhere.
It's going to hurt.
But next and I'm not trying tosound flippant Again I just
(45:06):
think there's really goodemotional benefit in us choosing
to walk wisely in relationshipsand expecting other people to
do the same.
I'm not talking about toxicpeople getting cut out of our
life.
I'm not talking about you'renot allowed to treat me that way
and I got boundaries.
And no, I'm not talking aboutbeing selfish.
I'm talking about the wisdomthat listen.
(45:26):
Relationships flourish whenthey function a certain way and
when they don't function way,and when they don't function
that way, they don't flourish.
If I'm the only one committedto it flourishing, you know,
feel free to leave, I'll be okay, I'll be okay and then I'll do
the hard work and I'll be okay.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Yeah, this is a really, really important topic
and an important conversation,because good relationships in
your life are so healthy andwhen there is strife and all of
these, you know, things thatwe've been talking about, when
they're happening they can makeus so unhealthy and unhappy and
(46:16):
and it's it's good to be able toread things and listen to
things like this that hopefullypeople take some nuggets away
and they're able to, you know,really think about these things
in more detail, a couple ofavenues that we haven't gotten
to yet and we're kind of at time.
Speaker 5 (46:39):
So maybe, deanna, yeah, put her on the spot.
Speaker 6 (46:48):
I've got no problem saying no, I'm really good at
that.
Okay, all right, I've got noproblem saying no, I'm really
good at that.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Okay, all right, because I feel like it's a whole
separate conversation to talkabout how do we forgive
ourselves and how do we bringforgiveness into a long-term
relationship, a spouse situation, when your spouse betrays you
or you betray, or and it doesn'teven have to be infidelity or
(47:15):
things like that.
But just yeah, you know what?
Yeah, um, that's a differentdynamic of a relationship as
well.
Speaker 5 (47:24):
So, yeah, and you also.
You, you hit on something atthe very end with your comment
was about boundaries, setting upboundaries for yourself, which
might, you know, somehow I feellike that ties in a little bit.
(47:44):
Maybe that's the protectiveshield that goes with letting
somebody off the hook, but I'mnot going to present that
situation again where you coulddo it again, I think.
I think setting boundaries hasbecome one of those phrases that
people use all the time and Idon't always understand, not
(48:09):
that I don't understand it, butI'd like to get to the root of
it.
You know what sort of thing.
Speaker 6 (48:16):
So I love talking about boundaries.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
So is setting a boundary, though could that be
seen still as you're holding agrudge or you're not forgetting?
Ok, I've forgiven you, butyou're only going to come this
close to me now because of whatyou did before.
So is that truly forgiveness?
Speaker 6 (48:39):
Um, well, here's the thing.
So I'm going to go back to theextreme example and then I'll
give a not extreme example.
If you have violated my child's, yeah, you're going to get to
have relationship with me.
Let's say you're a familymember who has violated my child
.
You're going to get to haverelationship with me on some
(49:01):
level, but my children are deadto you.
You won't ever in any form getaccess to them again until
they're out of my home and ableto make that choice for
themselves.
And it's not because I'm holdingyour sin against you.
It's because I understandthere's your wrong against you.
(49:24):
There's a weakness there You'veproven.
There's a weakness in you thereand I don't want to make it
easy for that weakness to getdisplayed again, particularly in
reference to my child.
And so I'm going to put aboundary in place and it's
(49:47):
probably going to be in thatinstance.
It's just going to be a simplestatement.
We're going to have a verysimple, brief conversation
instance.
It's just going to be a simplestatement.
We're going to have a verysimple, brief conversation and
you're going to know under nocircumstances are you allowed to
access my child in any way,ever again.
Period.
If you do, I'm going to make itan issue because I've got the
(50:07):
law on my side Now.
Another extreme example iswe're all friends, we're doing
coffee and Mina just can't keepher mouth shut and she's
constantly gossiping aboutStacey to Amy, and then Amy to
Kitty, and then Kitty towhomever, and maybe Stacey
shares something really personalwith me and she says, hey, I
(50:29):
haven't shared this with theother girls yet.
Could you just keep it toyourself for now.
I'm trying to figure out thebest timing to bring it up to
the group and I'm like, oh mygoodness, of course, if you need
anything, let me know and I'llbe there for you while you
figure out when you want to tellAmy and Kitty.
And then I tell Amy and Kittyand Stacey comes back to me.
(50:50):
She's like, oh my goodness,deanna, that was so hurtful.
You said you wouldn't tell, andso maybe we make it right.
Okay, we're just going toassume all the positives,
because Stacy and myself arejust killing this topic and
we're just fantastic atforgiveness and covering and all
the things, so we cover it.
But if Stacy's wise, she's goingto go ding.
(51:11):
That's the third time that'shappened with Deanna.
Over 10 years of friendship, orthat's the third time that's
happened in the last week withDeanna.
I'm going to stop telling heranything that matters.
I'm still going to do coffeewith her.
I'm still going to do book clubwith her.
But guess what?
Now we talk about the weather.
(51:32):
We talk about her daughter'slatest boyfriend.
We talk about the amount ofjewelry she just bought from
Kitty last weekend on her wives.
We talk about all of that.
Am I allowed to say that on thepodcast?
Speaker 4 (51:48):
Oh yeah, hell yes.
Speaker 6 (51:53):
And so.
I'm still going to be inrelationship with you, stacy.
We're going to have a reallygood friendship.
Still, stacy's just decidedit's going to be very
superficial because Deanna maybeisn't trustworthy and so she's
going to give me some time toprove and see if I am, and I
think that's wisdom and I thinkthat's a really wise boundary to
(52:15):
put in place.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
Makes sense Wow.
Speaker 5 (52:28):
I feel good about having had this conversation.
Okay, being able to like breakdown these little steps.
And why forgiveness?
I mean, I think we all knowforgiveness is good, but haven't
really thought about it quitelike you spelled it out.
Speaker 6 (52:47):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (52:48):
And how to activate it.
Speaker 6 (52:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm glad it's been helpful.
Do you have a?
Speaker 4 (52:52):
short end.
You know summary that you cangive everybody.
Speaker 6 (53:02):
Forgiveness is worth it.
Forgiveness is necessary andall relationships flourish with
it.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 6 (53:17):
Beautiful.
That would be my summary.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
That's wonderful, thank you.
That's a wonderful way to wrapthis up.
It is not easy, but a pathworth exploring.
Not easy, and but a path worthexploring for ourselves, for
ourselves, as you know, maybeeven more for ourselves than for
(53:46):
the relationship.
So, um, thank you, ourlisteners, our viewers, um,
whether our conversation todaygave you clarity, comfort, a
little bit of conviction, wehope that, just like Amy, we
hope you feel a little lighterhaving listened to this and a
little bit better equipped toface whatever healing journey
you're on.
Deanna, thank you for yourinsight, for showing up.
(54:08):
You show up for these hard,beautiful conversations and
we're grateful.
Speaker 6 (54:13):
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (54:16):
Thank you All right.
Well, we'll see you all nextweek.
Everybody.
Until then, have a good week,Bye.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
Bye.
Speaker 3 (54:25):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
All right, I got that .
Wow.
Who wants some handsome rightnow?
All right, woo, look, I gotthat.
Wow.
Who wants some heads up rightnow?
We got that.
Turn it up loud.
I know you're wondering how.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
I got that.
Wow, here I go.
Here I go, coming.
I can't ever stop.
I'm a tour de force running.
Get me to the top.
I don't need an invitation.
I'm about to start acelebration.
Let me in Brought a good timefor some friends.
Turn it up loud past 10.
Turning up the crowd when I hitthem with the power.
All right, all right.
Ooh, look I got that.
Wow, who wants some heads upright now?
We got that.
Turn it up loud.
I know you're wondering how Igot that.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Wow, here I go, here I go, coming.
I can't ever stop.
I'm a tour de force running.
Get me to the top.
I don't need an invitation.
I'm about to start acelebration.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
There she is.
Hello friends, good evening,hello, good evening.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Good morning.
Or whatever it is that you'relistening.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
No matter what day or time.
We hope everyone is well.
We are here for another episodeof Three Cocktails In.
Amy Stacey and myself we gatherweekly.
So just a reminder our episodesdrop every Thursday.
They are dropped at the weehours of the morning, so build
us in to your day, on Thursdayor Friday or whenever you might
(01:05):
be listening, and please doshare with your friends.
We cover lots of differenttopics and today's is going to
be great.
Are you guys ready?
Speaker 5 (01:15):
I am.
It's always interesting to getsuper psyched to talk to
somebody, especially somebodylike our guest today.
Yes, people that would beapprehensive about it, but not
us.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
We are brave souls.
We are brave souls, well, andso you know we.
We've been doing this now forwhat?
Two and a half years, and oneand a half.
Okay, we're coming on two years.
Okay, we're coming on two yearsand it is not easy to come up
with topics.
So we have planning sessions,the three of us have planning
(01:55):
sessions, and we dump a wholebunch of topics and then we we
whittled them down.
Um, and some of these moremeatier, some of these meatier
topics really do requirebringing somebody from the
outside in, because we'recurious about it, like we're not
the experts here.
We don't have this expertise.
So that's what we're doingagain today, and we're just
(02:19):
always so thrilled to bring inpeople who can help guide us and
teach us some of these things.
So today we're going to betalking about forgiveness.
Forgiveness is a word that wehear often, but I think few of
us really understand what itasks of us.
(02:40):
Right, we've all been hurt,we've all been betrayed, we've
all struggled to let go ofsomething.
If you can say yes to thosethings, even just one of them,
this episode is going to be foryou.
So we are bringing back ourfriend Deanna.
(03:01):
Doctor Deanna is a certifiedfaith-based counselor.
We've brought her in to talkabout what forgiveness really is
, what it isn't, and how it cantransform our emotional health,
our relationships and our future.
(03:22):
So this is going to be tender,I think, and it might just be
the change that some of us needfor healing.
So, with all of that being said, deanna, welcome back to three
cocktails in.
We are thrilled that you'rehere.
Speaker 6 (03:42):
Oh, thanks so much.
Hello everyone, glad to be back.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well, thank you for your time.
I know that you are stretchedthin with your clients and such,
so we appreciate the time.
Of course, this is a topic thatyou dig into, I'm sure, on a
regular basis.
So let's start at thefoundation and really talk about
(04:12):
what forgiveness is and why isit important it's an important
question first, and then I'llsegue into what it is.
Speaker 6 (04:30):
I think forgiveness is important because it's really
truly the only way to havecompletely unhinged and
life-giving relationships, andso if there's ever a barrier
because I've hurt somebody orsomebody has hurt me, that's
literally an impasse in howintimate, how trusting, how
respectful, how transparentwe're going to be in this
(04:53):
relationship.
And so I think one of the mainreasons forgiveness is so
important is because it createsthis bridge, this pathway for
both of us in relationship toeasily move back and forth, and
if we can do that, then respectand intimacy and transparency
continues to build.
(05:14):
Now, if I'm going to be selfish, in my view of forgiveness, it
also aids me in emotionalfreedom.
I don't feel hampered, I don'tfeel bound and anchored down by
something that might've occurredtwo weeks ago, two years ago,
(05:34):
20 years ago, because I've movedin forgiveness, at least in my
attitude, maybe not in actionstowards the person who offended,
but at least in my attitude.
I've released this.
So for me personally, there'sthis emotional freedom, but I
also think there's mentalfreedom.
You're not chewing on this andconstantly obsessing for lack of
(06:00):
a better word about how painfulit was, how unfair it was, and
if we're talking aboutforgiveness because somebody has
actually really hurt us oroffended us or wronged us, we're
not talking about forgivenessbecause you took my parking spot
at the grocery store, and so Ijust think there's real ability
(06:25):
for us to build a bridgerelationally that just keeps
expanding and widening andlengthening if we practice
forgiveness.
I think that's the main reasonwhy it's so important.
Now, what it is, it's prettycostly, hard and requires a
(06:48):
whole lot of humility.
In counseling, I tell my clientsall the time to think of
forgiveness as a legal term, andso it's you, the person who's
been offended, making acommitment to no longer hold the
offender to a standard of moralliability before you.
Now that seems a little heavy,so let's lighten that up.
(07:13):
It simply means that I'm goingto let the offender who hurt me
off my hook of justice and I'mgoing to put them on a different
hook of justice, mostly becauseI'm vengeful, I'm a horrible
judge, particularly if you'vecrossed me in any way.
(07:35):
I would love to say that evenas a counselor, I'm just super
reasonable, super objective,quick to let you off the hook if
you've crossed me.
That's not true.
That's just flat out not true.
Ask my husband ask my friends,ask my kids, and so it's us
(07:58):
making a commitment, the peoplewho have been hurt, making a
commitment to the people whohurt us.
The people who have been hurt,making a commitment to the
people who hurt us.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
That we will remove them from moral liability before
us Now.
Speaker 6 (08:12):
I think there are some requirements We'll probably
get into that later about theperson who's actually offended
me.
They need to be taking someownership and doing their part,
and we'll get into that.
But at at just first glance,it's simply a commitment that
I'm making to let you off myhook of justice.
So, because I'm terrible at it.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
yeah, what happens?
What happens when we don'tforgive, when we don't forgive?
Speaker 6 (08:44):
Oh, in the short term you've got a really cruddy
attitude In the short term.
So if I don't forgive today,today my attitude turns.
I'm probably going to get alittle short and snippy with
other people.
I probably have a little bit ofa chip on my shoulder and an
(09:05):
edge in my tone and in how Iperceive you.
For sure, if you're theoffender, but even just people
in general, over the long termsay months, years you move up an
emotional ladder, for lack of abetter word.
So think of a ladder that hasfive rungs.
The first rung is hurt, thesecond rung is anger, the third
(09:29):
rung is resentment, the fourthrung is bitterness, the fifth
rung is hatred.
If I do not practice forgiveness, I move up that ladder
emotionally very quickly and ifI'm nursing you off the hook, I
become this very resentful,bitter, hateful person.
(09:51):
And we would all we willprobably be able to right now in
our mind's eye think aboutsomebody in our circle that
we're like oh, I think that'swhat they are.
I think they're hurtful, I meanhateful, and it's because
they've got this edge and theyview all of life as terrible
(10:17):
because of that one hurt andoffense or wrong that was
committed against them maybe sixmonths ago, six years ago, 26
years ago.
So yeah, if we don't practiceforgiveness in the practical, it
just eats at us and erodes us.
But in the relational,practical people don't want to
(10:41):
be close to those of us thatdon't practice forgiveness.
We're not safe, we're nottrustworthy, we're not
dependable, we're not soft andwelcoming and inviting.
And who wants to be close tosomebody who's functioning that
way habitually?
(11:01):
Right?
So I think it's pretty costly.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
I've thought in certain circumstances that by
holding onto a grudge or notletting it go, not offering
forgiveness, you're choosing topunish yourself Because, like
you said, you become bitter andhateful.
Well, the person who offendedyou?
(11:31):
They're long out of the picture.
Right Now, I'm doing this tomyself, which is a double down
of the initial hurt and thewrong, but now I'm just letting
it fester.
Yes, you know, not only I lovethe analogy of building the
bridge, especially when theperson who has hurt you is in
(11:53):
your daily life, but also justto you know, make your.
You've got to at some point,choose to make yourself feel
better and, hanging on to it, itI mean it doesn't affect them,
you're the only one thatcontinues to get affected by it.
(12:14):
Now, that's really simplistic,obviously really simplistic, but
Well and I do think.
Speaker 6 (12:21):
I think it gives them power.
So so, to kind of expand onwhat you've said, amy, how I
practice it or how I movetowards it is going to be
(12:50):
slightly different.
I'm going to have to nuancethat based on the scope of
what's been done to me.
So I'm using a range of wordsbecause I certainly don't want
to level the playing field.
That all hurt feels the same.
That's just not true.
However, I do think if we'regoing to hold on to something
(13:12):
we're giving the person whoprobably is just tripping
through the tulips like they'regoing about their life, they're
thinking everything is fine andI'm giving them all of this
emotional power.
In my life I'm grading everysingle decision based on them
and the effect of what they'vedone to me.
I'm adjusting who I socializewith, where I socialize, how I
(13:50):
spend my money or how I makelife decisions, many times based
on their past, hurt, offense orwrong against me.
And meanwhile they're over hereliving their life, having the
time of their life, and so theonly one, as you said, amy, the
only one that's really sufferingis Deanna, because I'm holding
a grudge and I'm nursing a wound, and that's 100% on me.
I can't blame them for that.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
What are so, in order for forgiveness to happen, what
are some of the emotional andrelational prerequisites?
Speaker 6 (14:25):
What are some of the emotional and relational
prerequisites?
Well, I think, first of all, tobe humble.
So I'm going to speak from thevantage point of we're the ones
that have been wronged.
Right now, I think, if you'rethe one that's been wronged, you
have to start from a place ofhumility, and that's really hard
when you've been hurt in someway or taken advantage of, or
(14:49):
betrayed, or, literally, aninjustice has occurred, a law
has been broken.
I think it's difficult for usto move out of the realm of that
victimization and the fact thatmy life has just been altered
by what you've done on somelevel, and move into the realm
of that victimization and thefact that my life has just been
altered by what you've done onsome level, and move into the
realm of hey, deanna, slow yourroll.
(15:11):
Given the right circumstances,you might have made this same
choice towards somebody.
So let's just level the playingfield.
We're all struggling, weak,broken humans.
Let's take a breath here, andthat's what I mean by humility,
instead of just running in tobang some heads together.
(15:35):
Get justice.
Make sure everybody knows howawful Kitty was because of what
she did to me.
It's me pausing and trying tobring myself back to a place of
wait a minute.
We're all on pretty levelground here, so how should I
move forward with this?
So I think humility is one ofthe prerequisites.
(15:57):
I think another prerequisite isthat, man, I've got to be
committed to relationship overmy own personal benefit.
We might need to nuance that,because I do believe that even
when I practice forgiveness,there might be times that the
relationship can't continueexactly like it used to, based
(16:18):
on the wrong or the number oftimes that same wrong has been
committed against me, in otherwords, if there's a pattern, if
this person isn't remorseful.
So there's lots of variables tothat.
But I think initially I need tobe committed to the
relationship over to Anna, andagain that goes back to humility
(16:42):
.
The only way I'm going to becommitted to I'm sorry, kitty,
I'm just going to throw youunder the bus the whole podcast
Kitty's in my relationship beingrestored because she wronged me
, is if I'm thinking about therelationship more than I'm
thinking about how you hurt meand how it affected me.
And then just a couple otherthings.
(17:02):
I think we have to be realizingthat it's going to cost us
something.
Forgiveness is costly.
It usually means that I have toput down my staff of.
I will get justice.
I will avenge this and I'mgoing to have to lay that aside
(17:38):
for the sake of moving towardssomebody who is showing sincere
and genuine remorse and regretover what she did or said, or
didn't do or didn't say.
Sometimes the absence ofsomething can be just as hurtful
as the presence of something.
So, yeah, I think those threepoints are important.
The only other thing I wouldadd to it is that I think it's
also important to realizeforgiveness is not the absence
of a consequence.
And so, when you're thinking ofa prerequisite to forgiveness,
(18:00):
I think it's easy for us tobelieve that if we're truly
forgiving somebody, we're justletting them off the hook, and
you know well what I mean.
I forgave them and so I, I justI, I I'm not going to hold them
responsible, we're not going toask the judge to throw the book
at them, we're not going to holdtheir feet to the fire.
I think that's really foolish.
Yeah, for a couple of reasons.
(18:23):
There is a natural cause andeffect in place in life.
Every choice has a consequenceor a reaction.
Every choice has a response,and if I'm going to try to short
circuit that in somebody else'slife, then I don't get to
complain when they keeprepeating that same stupid or
(18:48):
hurtful pattern, because Ijumped in and I tried to cut off
the cause and effect.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
Oh, go ahead.
So walk me through that lastpoint again me through that last
point again.
Speaker 6 (19:12):
So in some ways, forgiveness is one part,
consequence is another.
Except I'm saying that it's thesame coin.
It's just two sides of the coin.
On one side of the coin is megranting forgiveness.
On the other side of the coinis me also understanding that
the consequence is going to helptrain them towards not doing
that again.
Okay, and so forgiveness isn'tme expunging the consequence or
(19:33):
the result of their choice.
It's me not holding themresponsible to my standard of
how good I want to feelemotionally, but instead holding
them to a standard of right,living, good, respectful
behavior, maybe, if a law hasbeen broken, what the legal side
(19:56):
says that they're responsibleto do.
I'm a fan of holding people'sfeet to the fire, because pain
trains us, it motivates us, painchanges us, and I think maybe
one of the misconceptions in ourcurrent culture is that if
you're going to forgive somebody, they're just completely off
(20:18):
all hooks.
No, they're just off my hook.
I'm not going for a pound offlesh because I'm looking to
restore relationship, but youviolate a law.
I'm definitely hoping the judgegoes for a pound of flesh.
You break into my home andcause damage.
(20:39):
I'm definitely going to expectyou to pay for that and make
that right.
I'm still going to forgive you,but you need to be trained
towards not doing that again.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Well, the difference is so.
The difference is right.
You want them to be heldaccountable.
We're just not going to keep itwithin your, you know, thinking
and heart and whatever againstthat person for a long term.
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Yes, yeah, which, stacey, since you're bringing
that up, is really part of athreefold commitment that I
think forgiveness is on ourparts.
If I'm going to grantforgiveness to Kitty because of
what she did to me, I'mliterally telling myself I'm not
going to keep rehearsing thatand reminding myself in my own
(21:35):
head, but I'm also not going tokeep reminding Kitty.
Well, you know, you know, lastweek when we did coffee, you
said I don't know if I want tobe in that position again.
Maybe we shouldn't do coffee.
You said I don't know if I wantto be in that position again.
Maybe we shouldn't do coffee,you know, in a couple of weeks.
So I'm reminding her.
Well, again, we're thinkingbridge building.
I'm not supposed to be puttingdown major obstacles that you
(21:57):
have to jump over every singletime we socialize.
But I think the finalcommitment is that I'm not going
to bring it up to Amy andStacey either.
So, you know, maybe we're allhanging out together and Kitty
gets up to go to the bathroomand I'm like guys, I know that
you weren't there last time wedid coffee, but I just can't.
(22:19):
I just I got to tell somebodybecause it just hurt me so badly
.
And then I'm rehearsingsomething that I thought or I
would say Kitty thought I hadcovered with forgiveness.
Now I'm bringing it up to otherpeople.
And so I totally agree with whatyou said, stacey.
(22:40):
I'm still asking for somebodyto hold them responsible.
I'm just not going to be theone doing it within my own heart
and mind, because I can't betrusted to do that and still
function well.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
So if you're doing those things, it's a sign that
you really haven't forgiven.
It's a sign that you reallyhaven't forgiven, correct, okay,
so this kind of gets to the oldsaying forgive and forget.
As human beings, it's hard.
(23:20):
Well, what are your thoughtsabout that saying?
That saying is awesome.
Speaker 6 (23:24):
It's hard to forget.
Everybody listening to thepodcast.
Please don't use that saying.
It's a terrible saying.
First of all, it's not evenpossible.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
So there have been so many studies over the years
through the decades, about howour brains retain information
and, with just a couple ofpatterns of practice, these
neural pathways form.
And now, habitually, we justrespond to life a certain way.
We just ingrained a pattern.
(23:57):
Well, what is that?
That's my brain going.
Hey, deanna, you're going toneed every ounce of help you can
get to remember important stuff, and so I'm just going to help
you remember all the importantstuff.
Well, it's really important.
If I'm hurt, if somebody hashurt me or wronged me or
violated me, that's important.
(24:19):
So, guess what I do, I rememberit.
And so there's a difference.
There's the difference betweenremembering and rehearsing.
I remember a whole lot ofreally awful, painful, hurtful
stuff that's been done to meover the years by people, but I
(24:40):
don't sit around rehearsing itin my memory bank, but I don't
sit around rehearsing it in mymemory bank Almost like
rehashing.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
Yes, yeah, going over it again and again and again,
yeah, All that does.
Speaker 6 (25:00):
I can't speak for everybody, but I'm a pretty
fiery person on a good day.
So if I'm sitting thererehearsing and rehashing ugly
stuff like um you're, you're notgoing to want to park near me,
you certainly don't want to lookat me funny and I probably
should like put duct tape overmy mouth because something is
(25:21):
coming out and something isgoing down, okay.
And then I've blown up multiplerelationships in a series of
maybe minutes or hours, becausemy mind was full of I can't
believe Kitty did that.
And then it just bleh.
It comes out and it shouldn't,because it doesn't serve the
(25:44):
relationship at all.
All Confrontation does.
But we're not talking aboutconfrontation, we're talking
about rehashing something thatKitty's not being given an
opportunity to answer for.
Speaker 5 (26:05):
So this might be off kind of the outline that we
talked about, but what do you?
How do you approach forgivenessto somebody who has moved on?
I mean, they've really moved on.
They're not really.
You don't really have thatrelationship with them anymore,
and not just because of this oneincident, but just because you
(26:29):
know life circumstance, whatever.
How do you approach forgivenesswhen there isn't necessarily
that bridge or relationshipyou're trying to focus on?
Speaker 6 (26:41):
Yeah, great question.
So I encourage people to thinkof forgiveness as two aspects,
two components.
One is your attitude.
That's an internal personalthing that Amy, stacey, kitty,
deanna are all working throughand all working out up here so
that we are not holding onto agrudge, we're not nursing this.
(27:05):
The second aspect is behavioror verbiage.
Second aspect is behavior orverbiage.
And I tell people all the timelisten, you're not allowed ever
to have an attitude ofunforgiveness.
(27:25):
You're just, you're not allowed, because it's a barrier to
relationship and we're supposedto be living in relationships
and we're supposed to be livingin relationships.
However, I might not be allowedto verbalize or live out my
forgiveness, and there'd be acouple of reasons for that.
One is maybe the person is nolonger in my life and there
(27:46):
might not be wisdom in invitingthem back into my life, for a
variety of reasons.
There also might not becapability of inviting them back
into my life.
For a variety of reasons.
There also might not becapability of inviting them back
in.
You know, if they've moved away, I've lost touch.
I couldn't even find them onsocial media, okay, well, now
Deanna has to believe that she'snot forgiving because I just
can't tell you I forgive you.
No, I can still do it in myattitude and let you off that
(28:11):
hook, so to speak, of my moraljudgment.
But I also think it matters thatsometimes people don't care
that they hurt us.
Yeah, and no offense.
But if you don't care, I'm notgoing to tell you verbally that
(28:31):
you're forgiven, because Iactually don't think I can cover
your forgiveness verbally or inbehavior until you take
ownership for the fact that youdid something wrong.
Yeah, I just think it cheapensthe amount of hurt that you've
caused and I think it cheapensthe level at which we ask people
(28:55):
to be held responsible.
So I'm going to use a reallyextreme example.
If you violate my children asan adult or as a teenager, if
you violate my kids as an adultor as a teenager, if you violate
my kids and I'm churning insideas a mom and my kids are
(29:15):
churning and and they're sittingin counseling and they're
having all of the side effectsof the child who's been violated
, my life's in upheaval.
I think lots of times peopleare prompted to go to that
person and say you know what, Iforgive you Because I, as the
(29:36):
mom, feel terrible inside, feelterrible statistically.
Now I'm leaning on statistics.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Statistically they don't care, and so now I'm
letting them off a hook thatthey don't even think they need
to be on.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
So they're like well, thanks, deanna, but I didn't
think I, you know, I didn't doanything to your kid.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
So next.
And so now I have no recoursebecause, remember, forgiveness
is making a commitment.
I'm not going to rehash it, I'mnot going to keep reminding the
offender what they did to meand I'm not going to bring it up
(30:24):
to other people.
So now I have no recourse.
And the person who hurt me,violated me, violated my kid,
hurt my kid is just trippingthrough tulips.
Yeah, that's not okay.
And so to go back to yourquestion, amy, or your statement
(30:46):
, I think it matters that in myattitude, I'm always moving
towards a place of hey, deanna,you're a terrible judge, you are
not going to be objective rightnow, because this involves your
child.
You're going for flesh.
You just want to end thisperson.
You have to transfer them tosome other hook of justice, not
(31:10):
yours.
I can do all of that in myattitude, but I'm going to make
a pretty strong statement.
I don't believe we're actuallyallowed to verbally let them off
the hook until they actuallybelieve they're on the hook.
So you know people who writeletters to prisoners and they're
(31:34):
like I just want you to know Iforgive you, I want nothing but
the best for you and I'm likeyou guys save your letters.
No, they need to take ownershipfirst before you let them off
the hook.
I think that's a reallyimportant part of them humbling
themselves and not acknowledgingthe pain they've caused, and I
(32:00):
think we should expect people todo that.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
In those extreme situations like that, I don't
know that I could ever forgivesomeone.
Speaker 6 (32:19):
Yeah, I mean, as we sit here on a podcast, it all
sounds really great in theory,right, because we're not talking
about anything real.
That just happened today, onFather's Day, right?
Not talking about anything real, that just happened today, on
Father's Day.
So, yeah, I hear that and Ithink that's a valid point I'm
going to go back to.
The purpose of forgiveness isfor relational freedom.
(32:46):
This is literally truly thewhole, entire purpose of
forgiveness.
Now, you know, I happen to be afaith-based counselor, so I'm
fully aware that my faith systemstrongly influences how I live
my life.
But even if you don't have afaith system, every single
person on planet Earthunderstands the disconnect and
(33:08):
the tearing that happens in amoment when we hurt each other
and we wrong each other or weviolate or betray each other,
and so the goal is that there'dbe a restoration or a
reconciliation of relationship,but not necessarily only with
(33:29):
that person, but also within me,within Deanna.
I'm being restored, I'm beingreconciled to trusting people
believing the best about aperson wanting to be open and
vulnerable again with a person,a person, and so I understand
(33:55):
that it's really challenging forus to forgive.
It is one of the costliest lifeskills we will ever practice.
But if we don't practice it ithampers all relationships
Because, although I might thinkit's only affecting my
relationship with this personnow, deanna's a little bit
(34:15):
braced for all my otherrelationships.
I'm not actually sure Amy's asnice as she comes across.
Maybe Stacey isn't really ashonest when she tells me how she
feels about me as I think sheis, and it's all because I'm
still over here not grantingforgiveness in my attitude
(34:37):
towards this person who wasn'ttrustworthy, and if I hold on to
that long enough, it changes myattitude towards other people.
I say this in counseling all thetime this is deep end of the
pool life skill this is.
Deanna can't just tread water.
(34:57):
Deanna can't float on her backindefinitely.
I have to develop the skill ofgetting back into the part of
the pool where I can touch or Ican hold on to something, and so
this is deep end of the poolwhere I can touch or I can hold
on to something, and so this isdeep end of the pool skill.
People have to practice it ortheir relationships just
(35:19):
continue to blow up and that'slonely.
Speaker 5 (35:24):
Yeah, I don't.
I don't know if we have time,but maybe this there's a part
two but the flip side asking forforgiveness, oh yeah, which is
a biggie, and you I mean youwant to ask, I know, maybe,
maybe that's a whole.
Maybe that's a part two, becauseI think that that is equally as
(35:48):
hard talking about having tofirst humble yourself.
Equally as hard talking abouthaving to first humble yourself.
Not only are you humblingyourself internally, now you're
going to humble yourself tosomebody else who may or may not
want anything to do with youwhich is why I don't want to
talk about it.
Let's just stay arrogant worksfor me not so much um, yeah, and
(36:08):
assume you're not hurtinganybody.
Speaker 6 (36:12):
Works for me not so much, yeah, yeah.
So you do have to start withhumility Again.
There has to be goodself-assessment of oh my
goodness, deanna, really thatwas completely out of line, that
was disrespectful, that wasrude, that was whatever.
(36:35):
I think there has to behumility and then there has to
be again I'm just going to keepsaying it, telling blue in the
face a commitment to therelationship.
I understand that sometemperaments are like listen,
I've got three friends, I don'tneed four.
The fourth one hurt me, so nowthey're not a friend.
Good, no harm, no foul.
(36:57):
I do understand that sometemperaments aren't as given to
a whole lot of relationship witha whole lot of people.
But unless you're going to be ahermit and live under a rock,
you are in relationship withsomebody and so there does have
to be a commitment to hey,deanna, you were the one that
(37:21):
was out of line.
You're going to need to makethat right.
And it's hard to go to somebodyand say and I believe this is
how forgiveness should be soughtto say, hey, I was unkind when
I, I was rude when I, I wasdisrespectful when I, I was
arrogant when I will you pleaseforgive me, I'm not a fan of I'm
(37:46):
sorry.
I think that cheapens theoffense and what I've done to
you.
I think it minimizes the levelof hurt I've caused.
I say I'm sorry when I run intoyou with my cart at Target.
That's an accident, that's anoops.
But man, if I open my mouth andI, you know, pop off with some
(38:08):
really unkind speech, that wastotal choice and I better care
enough about you to takeownership of that and to
acknowledge how deeply it hurtyou.
Whether I think you're way toosensitive and kind of
emotionally a wuss or not, Ivalue relationship with you and
(38:32):
so if you're saying, deanna,that was really hurtful, or if
I'm knowing it was hurtfulbecause I know Deanna, I just
need to be humble and takeownership for that to maintain
the relationship.
Now, please hear me, ladies, I'mnot talking about somebody who
regularly and routinely, isoverly sensitive and is
(38:55):
regularly coming back to megoing you hurt me when you, you
hurt me when you, you hurt mewhen and everything's hurtful.
Okay, yeah, I'm well, partiallybecause I'm a counselor, but
also maybe partially because ofmy temperament.
I'm not falling on my swordover and over again.
For that we're going to have adifferent type of conversation
and I'm just going to be reallyfrank and very upfront and very
(39:17):
counselor-ish and I'm going toconfront your sensitivity but
that's a separate conversationAmy's bringing up.
Yeah, but then you have to askfor forgiveness too, yeah.
So I'm encouraging us all toremember hey, let's be humble,
let's just be totally willing toadmit I probably did say that I
(39:43):
probably did cause hurt there.
I probably was rude or passive,aggressive or dismissive.
I'd love to think I'm never anyof those things, but that's
just not the truth.
And so if I'm humble and I'mcommitted to the relationship,
(40:03):
it certainly starts as an easierpathway to come back to Amy,
stacey or Kitty and go hey, Iwas really unkind when I said
that when we were at coffee.
Will you please forgive me?
I don't ever want to hurt you.
And then you get to choose ifyou forgive me or if you're like
(40:25):
hey, deanna, you know you'vebeen asking forgiveness for that
thing like every other day.
You've been asking forgivenessfor that thing like every other
day.
It might be time for you to getsome help with that, because
I'm not going to keep grantingforgiveness if you're not
committed to changing.
That's good friendship.
Speaker 5 (40:44):
Yeah, and nearly impossible to get in Minnesota
that type of response back.
You know I mean know, I meanMinnesota thing.
Oh, don't you think that that'dbe really hard for somebody to
say, you know?
Speaker 1 (41:03):
you know, we've had this convert.
Speaker 5 (41:05):
We've had this forgiveness asking back and
forth like this is like timenumber five.
You need to get some help.
I mean, that is, it would be ahard thing to say to someone.
It was oh for sure, for sure.
Which um brings me to my nextquestion.
So you've asked for forgiveness, you have, you've acknowledged
(41:28):
what you've done and you knowthat it was hurtful to them.
And they say to you I justdon't, I don't think this is
going to work for me anymore.
Do you just work again withinyourself to say I've done what I
(41:49):
can, I've acknowledged mybehavior, I'm going to try and
do better with otherrelationships.
This person doesn't want toforgive me for this, or do you?
Do you try again, do you?
Speaker 6 (42:04):
I think it maybe depends on the relationship that
you're, that you have with thisperson and the depth of
investment with this person.
So, if this is a sibling, ifthis is a really close friend
that you've been friends withfor decades, if this is somebody
(42:27):
that you have to work withclosely every day, then, yeah, I
encourage people.
Hey, pull back, give them sometime to process, give them a few
days, give them a few weeks.
And if you're still going, man,no, there's still something
between us.
This has to be made right.
Then re-engage again andprovide yet another opportunity
(42:49):
for that bridge to be laid downwith another whole board.
But if this is not a deep, closefriendship, if this is somebody
that about every two months wecycle into something like this,
or if this is a person who can'tseem to maintain a relationship
(43:13):
, then you're probably not thecommon denominator.
And so, man, if they don't wantto invest, here's the deal.
And please don't hear me, I'mnot trying to sound harsh, but
here's the deal.
I've got lots of people thatwant to invest in me and that I
want to invest in.
There's a reciprocity andrelationship going on.
(43:34):
I can afford for you to walkaway.
I'm not going to like it,deanna's going to grieve, not
only as a counselor, but just asa human.
I want people to get along Goodgrief.
I spend the majority of my weekhelping people get along.
It matters to me, but at theend of the day, if I have to beg
(43:58):
you to work on this, yeah, I'mprobably not going to do that,
because if I care more than youcare, we're probably not good
together.
I need you investing at thesame level I'm investing in If
we're going to be in a mutualrelationship.
I understand some relationshipsare very one-sided and they
(44:21):
have their place, but if this isa person who is regularly
functioning this way, regularlynot granting forgiveness,
regularly thinks everybody elseis the problem and never them,
I'm probably going to let themwalk away, because I've tried
(44:43):
maybe three times, four times,eight times, 25 times and I'm
not getting anywhere.
It's going to hurt.
But next and I'm not trying tosound flippant Again I just
(45:06):
think there's really goodemotional benefit in us choosing
to walk wisely in relationshipsand expecting other people to
do the same.
I'm not talking about toxicpeople getting cut out of our
life.
I'm not talking about you'renot allowed to treat me that way
and I got boundaries.
And no, I'm not talking aboutbeing selfish.
I'm talking about the wisdomthat listen.
(45:26):
Relationships flourish whenthey function a certain way and
when they don't function way,and when they don't function
that way, they don't flourish.
If I'm the only one committedto it flourishing, you know,
feel free to leave, I'll be okay, I'll be okay and then I'll do
the hard work and I'll be okay.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Yeah, this is a really, really important topic
and an important conversation,because good relationships in
your life are so healthy andwhen there is strife and all of
these, you know, things thatwe've been talking about, when
they're happening they can makeus so unhealthy and unhappy and
(46:16):
and it's it's good to be able toread things and listen to
things like this that hopefullypeople take some nuggets away
and they're able to, you know,really think about these things
in more detail, a couple ofavenues that we haven't gotten
to yet and we're kind of at time.
Speaker 5 (46:39):
So maybe, deanna, yeah, put her on the spot.
Speaker 6 (46:48):
I've got no problem saying no, I'm really good at
that.
Okay, all right, I've got noproblem saying no, I'm really
good at that.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Okay, all right, because I feel like it's a whole
separate conversation to talkabout how do we forgive
ourselves and how do we bringforgiveness into a long-term
relationship, a spouse situation, when your spouse betrays you
or you betray, or and it doesn'teven have to be infidelity or
(47:15):
things like that.
But just yeah, you know what?
Yeah, um, that's a differentdynamic of a relationship as
well.
Speaker 5 (47:24):
So, yeah, and you also.
You, you hit on something atthe very end with your comment
was about boundaries, setting upboundaries for yourself, which
might, you know, somehow I feellike that ties in a little bit.
(47:44):
Maybe that's the protectiveshield that goes with letting
somebody off the hook, but I'mnot going to present that
situation again where you coulddo it again, I think.
I think setting boundaries hasbecome one of those phrases that
people use all the time and Idon't always understand, not
(48:09):
that I don't understand it, butI'd like to get to the root of
it.
You know what sort of thing.
Speaker 6 (48:16):
So I love talking about boundaries.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
So is setting a boundary, though could that be
seen still as you're holding agrudge or you're not forgetting?
Ok, I've forgiven you, butyou're only going to come this
close to me now because of whatyou did before.
So is that truly forgiveness?
Speaker 6 (48:39):
Um, well, here's the thing.
So I'm going to go back to theextreme example and then I'll
give a not extreme example.
If you have violated my child's, yeah, you're going to get to
have relationship with me.
Let's say you're a familymember who has violated my child
.
You're going to get to haverelationship with me on some
(49:01):
level, but my children are deadto you.
You won't ever in any form getaccess to them again until
they're out of my home and ableto make that choice for
themselves.
And it's not because I'm holdingyour sin against you.
It's because I understandthere's your wrong against you.
(49:24):
There's a weakness there You'veproven.
There's a weakness in you thereand I don't want to make it
easy for that weakness to getdisplayed again, particularly in
reference to my child.
And so I'm going to put aboundary in place and it's
(49:47):
probably going to be in thatinstance.
It's just going to be a simplestatement.
We're going to have a verysimple, brief conversation
instance.
It's just going to be a simplestatement.
We're going to have a verysimple, brief conversation and
you're going to know under nocircumstances are you allowed to
access my child in any way,ever again.
Period.
If you do, I'm going to make itan issue because I've got the
(50:07):
law on my side Now.
Another extreme example iswe're all friends, we're doing
coffee and Mina just can't keepher mouth shut and she's
constantly gossiping aboutStacey to Amy, and then Amy to
Kitty, and then Kitty towhomever, and maybe Stacey
shares something really personalwith me and she says, hey, I
(50:29):
haven't shared this with theother girls yet.
Could you just keep it toyourself for now.
I'm trying to figure out thebest timing to bring it up to
the group and I'm like, oh mygoodness, of course, if you need
anything, let me know and I'llbe there for you while you
figure out when you want to tellAmy and Kitty.
And then I tell Amy and Kittyand Stacey comes back to me.
(50:50):
She's like, oh my goodness,deanna, that was so hurtful.
You said you wouldn't tell, andso maybe we make it right.
Okay, we're just going toassume all the positives,
because Stacy and myself arejust killing this topic and
we're just fantastic atforgiveness and covering and all
the things, so we cover it.
But if Stacy's wise, she's goingto go ding.
(51:11):
That's the third time that'shappened with Deanna.
Over 10 years of friendship, orthat's the third time that's
happened in the last week withDeanna.
I'm going to stop telling heranything that matters.
I'm still going to do coffeewith her.
I'm still going to do book clubwith her.
But guess what?
Now we talk about the weather.
(51:32):
We talk about her daughter'slatest boyfriend.
We talk about the amount ofjewelry she just bought from
Kitty last weekend on her wives.
We talk about all of that.
Am I allowed to say that on thepodcast?
Speaker 4 (51:48):
Oh yeah, hell yes.
Speaker 6 (51:53):
And so.
I'm still going to be inrelationship with you, stacy.
We're going to have a reallygood friendship.
Still, stacy's just decidedit's going to be very
superficial because Deanna maybeisn't trustworthy and so she's
going to give me some time toprove and see if I am, and I
think that's wisdom and I thinkthat's a really wise boundary to
(52:15):
put in place.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
Makes sense Wow.
Speaker 5 (52:28):
I feel good about having had this conversation.
Okay, being able to like breakdown these little steps.
And why forgiveness?
I mean, I think we all knowforgiveness is good, but haven't
really thought about it quitelike you spelled it out.
Speaker 6 (52:47):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (52:48):
And how to activate it.
Speaker 6 (52:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm glad it's been helpful.
Do you have a?
Speaker 4 (52:52):
short end.
You know summary that you cangive everybody.
Speaker 6 (53:02):
Forgiveness is worth it.
Forgiveness is necessary andall relationships flourish with
it.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 6 (53:17):
Beautiful.
That would be my summary.
Speaker 3 (53:20):
That's wonderful, thank you.
That's a wonderful way to wrapthis up.
It is not easy, but a pathworth exploring.
Not easy, and but a path worthexploring for ourselves, for
ourselves, as you know, maybeeven more for ourselves than for
(53:46):
the relationship.
So, um, thank you, ourlisteners, our viewers, um,
whether our conversation todaygave you clarity, comfort, a
little bit of conviction, wehope that, just like Amy, we
hope you feel a little lighterhaving listened to this and a
little bit better equipped toface whatever healing journey
you're on.
Deanna, thank you for yourinsight, for showing up.
(54:08):
You show up for these hard,beautiful conversations and
we're grateful.
Speaker 6 (54:13):
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (54:16):
Thank you All right.
Well, we'll see you all nextweek.
Everybody.
Until then, have a good week,Bye.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
Bye.
Speaker 3 (54:25):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
All right, I got that .
Wow.
Who wants some handsome rightnow?
All right, woo, look, I gotthat.
Wow.
Who wants some heads up rightnow?
We got that.
Turn it up loud.
I know you're wondering how.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
I got that.
Wow, here I go.
Here I go, coming.
I can't ever stop.
I'm a tour de force running.
Get me to the top.
I don't need an invitation.
I'm about to start acelebration.
Let me in Brought a good timefor some friends.
Turn it up loud past 10.
Turning up the crowd when I hitthem with the power.
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