Bonus Episode; Kat and Val Reunion!

Kat and Val are back with a much anticipated bonus episode. Our hosts laugh heartily as they share personal updates and their responses to the podcasts 3 Questions. What are you learning? What’s moving around for you? What’s bringing you pleasure? Listen and laugh as Kat and Val bring their characteristic candor and humor to everything from inner healing to various alternative healing modalities including psilocybin and much more! This episode is a feel-good super-fun ride! 

*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only

Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast

Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club

Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art

Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
How to Change Your Mind (Netflix Docuseries) Micheal Pollan
Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema

Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.

Kat (00:39):
Hello, Valerie.
Yay,

Val (00:41):
Kat.
We're

Kat (00:42):
here.
We are here.
We're together again.
It's been nine months.
We looked it up.
Oh

Val (00:47):
my gosh.
We are back finally for the longawaited bonus bonus episode
update.
Ta da.
We've been trying to get thistogether for months.
Yeah.
A long time.
Here we

Kat (01:02):
finally are.
We did it though.
I'm really proud of us.
We're here.
Yeah.
I feel like a completelydifferent person.

Val (01:11):
In talking about this, dear listeners, Kat she's like, I
don't know, I'm just sodifferent.
Everything is different.
I'm just so different now.
I don't know.
I don't know if it's going to begood in the podcast.
And I was like, that's okay.
I'm exactly the

Kat (01:26):
same.
You guys, I've been doing a lotof mushrooms, so like, I'm like
fucking altered.

Val (01:37):
So, you know, we'll balance each other out here.
And we got lots to kind of lotsto update each other on.
We've been kind of like, I feellike we've been, we're.
we've been kind of like keepingour updates to ourselves because
we wanted to do them on thepodcast, but that's a really
long time to not do a lot ofupdates.
So I'm like, I don't even knowyou anymore.
We used to

Kat (01:54):
save our stories for the podcast because we wanted it to
be so real and authentic foryou, our listeners who we love
and adore.
And so we really have barelytalked in nine

Val (02:05):
months.
Yeah.
And then there's many topicsthat a cat is like I need to do
this in person.
I can't talk to you about thison a video message.
So we've been, we've beenwaiting.
We want the best for you guys.
We want the best for our, our,our lovely listeners.
Is anyone listening?

Kat (02:25):
You know, it's been so long.
I know, but sometimes I stillsee our, our email information.
We get notifications from thehosts.
of the, the, the podcast.
Yeah, yeah.
And people are still listening.
I don't know who they are.
I know.
But like we still get regulardownloads for our podcast.
And we've

Val (02:41):
had like long time listeners, fans of the show.
Yeah.
Fans.
Like, when are you guys gonna doanother podcast?
So that's always been reallysweet to hear.

Kat (02:51):
So.
Well, it feels good to bewanted.
That's really true.
Yeah.
You're

Val (02:55):
wanted.
It does.
Yes.
And then like we got real close,like funny enough, like back in
maybe.
end of February.
So this was really, we weren't,it's not a real long tease.
Like I get mad at TV shows whenthey take too long to come back.
Oh, yeah.
Like I forgot about you.
I don't know.
I need a really deep dive of arecap to know what happened last
season.

(03:15):
You know, don't do that to me,but we really didn't mean to do
this.
We, but life just, it justhappens.
And then when we missed the endof February, I was like, oh.
March and April are lookingcrazy for me.
I'm sorry.
And here we are.
And then I, and then I kind ofconfess to you.
I was like, cat, I think thatmaybe I'm avoiding the podcast

(03:36):
episode.
So, but I think I'm over it.
And then what was, what was yourresponse to that?
I

Kat (03:41):
don't know.
I don't even remember you sayingthat to me.
Yeah.
Your

Val (03:44):
response was like, let's take mushrooms and then record

Kat (03:49):
it.
I'm pretty sure that mushroomsare the answer for everything.
Oh, my

Val (03:54):
God.
And then I was like, yeah, letme just reflect back what you
just did.
Like I told you, like I've kindof been shying away from doing
the podcast update.
I don't know why.
Like and then your update wasjust to like.
Blast me into this the mostuncomfortable like that was
like, I think I made themistake.
I think I always try to be downfor whatever.
Oh, and so I think I said toyou, this is my fault.

(04:16):
I said, not like we need faultor anything, but I was like.
Oh, I'm not opposed to the ideaof maybe trying mushrooms and
then you're like, Oh my God.
Yes.
I was like, back up.
Well, I have to retract thatstate.
I have to retract thatstatement.
So then you're very cute and youwere like, OK, OK, no pressure.
No pressure, but it would belike.

(04:36):
Most amazing thing if we didthat.
Oh my God.

Kat (04:38):
I love on TikTok, people were counting their experiences
with psychedelics.
There's so many TikToks of like,even like lots of celebrities
that are like, this one time onmushrooms, this one time on LSD,
this one time on Molly.
And so I was like, Oh my God, wecould do that.
Like the first time.
Oh

Val (04:55):
man.
Yeah.
I was like.
Cat, I don't think the firsttime I do that is going to

Kat (04:59):
be recorded.
That was pure enthusiasm, notbased in wisdom.
Wisdom that even I know and haveaccess to means you need some
time to incorporate, you know,and like integrate your
experiences.
I'm writing

Val (05:11):
on that.
That was based in enthusiasm,not wisdom.
I'm going to use that

Kat (05:16):
again.
Oh, man, there's a lot of methat's like

Val (05:19):
that.
That's great.
Yeah, that suggested was basedon enthusiasm, not wisdom.
Yes.
Oh, I love it.
I love a good catchphrase.
I love a good catchphrase.
Oh man.
Okay.
Yep.
We're going to use

Kat (05:28):
that one.
So we decided that for thisepisode bonus, we're just going
to move through our threequestions, which we're so
excited about.
What are you learning?
What's moving around for you,how you're evolving and what's
bringing you pleasure?
So what do you think Val?
Would you like to go first?
What are you learning aboutright now?

Val (05:48):
I feel like you need to go first.
Really?

Kat (05:51):
I was already in a state of tremendous transition.
You have.
And so what I've experienced issome resolution, an incredible
amount of transition in my life,which feels really good.
Yeah.
And so I do feel altered becauselast year, our 29 episodes of
recording was an incredibleincredibly rich time of growth

(06:11):
and exploration and significantchanges in my life.
And so some of those have likecompleted their, their, their
cycle, you know, and I would saya lot of it has to do with like
inner healing stuff and things Iwas particularly working on
that, you know, I've noticedthat with the help of,
psilocybin magic mushrooms,like, they're, they're really

(06:34):
useful for therapeutic purposes.
And so I really do feel altered,like I feel different.
I feel like some core woundingfrom my childhood and early
years and even some religioustrauma, like.
I did the work, Val, I showed upand I used whatever tools
resonated with me, you know, andso I feel really strongly that,

(06:54):
like, whatever you're attractedto, whatever resonates, then
that's probably the healingmodality that's gonna work most
effectively for you, right?
I don't think it works reallygood when someone's like, Oh my
God, you gotta try this thing.
And then, then, unless you haveyour own internal yes.
I don't know that it's going towork that well for you.
But when you have some internalyeses, and my yes for mushrooms

(07:15):
is so big and just fun, playfulenthusiasm, right?
And it, I just, I let it help mediscover what, what else is
inside that was ready to healand move through.
And that, that feels reallygood.
So I feel.
I feel healed.
I feel healed.
And then, Val, here's the coolfucking thing, is it manifested

(07:35):
physically.
We have an episode in our 29episodes about a supernatural
healing, right?
Because we both, we come from aPentecostal religious
background, we're, yes.
Faith healing was a part of ourculture and then we had this
great conversation months agoback in July, I think, where
we're like trying to likeprocess it and what do we think
about it now and how do weexplore healing from a non

(07:57):
ableist point of view, right,where we're not given into
healthism and all these otherthings that are equating certain
Certain health aspects withmorality, right?
We don't do that.
But I did all this inner healingstuff and then my physical body
Stopped hurting so bad and inMarch of this year.
I had a dramatic Improvement howI was feeling and I can walk and

(08:20):
stand much further than I haveand it just keeps getting better
and better And when it firsthappened the pain went away like
I used to be able to stand forabout two minutes Between two
and five minutes without painand then sudden, dramatic, like
a seizing feeling in my low backwould, would require me to sit
down.
So, that came with a lot ofanxiety when I was moving around

(08:40):
in the world.
Like, would there be seating forme?
Like, do I need to bring thisrollator I have?
Because you

Val (08:45):
only had like two to

Kat (08:46):
five minutes.
It's not very long, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And like, I would have to makesure I would get parking.
I mean, all kinds of things,right?
And then, so after the pain wentaway, there was this like
integration time where I waslike, Oh my god, I gotta, I
gotta retrain my brain to belike, I'm free to just move
about the world.
I, I'm not in pain anymore.
And so, you know, I, I stilllive in a large body and I do

(09:09):
still have certain limitations.
So it's not that I'm like, youknow, hiking trails right now,
but I can walk around the block.
I can run errands.
I can do all the things I can dowithout like this intense pain
forcing me to sit down.
And then, so that was.
That was March that thathappened and that's months ago
now and I can, it just keepsgrowing.
My ability and my stamina.

(09:30):
My body's healing.
I know.
My insides healed.
They healed.
And then my, my physical body ishealing.
Yeah.

Val (09:38):
It's so good.
Well, as your friend, I'm sohappy.
And I remember the day you toldme.
Yeah.
I think it was on this couchbehind us.
I think you were like cause youwere sort of, and I've talked
about this before, you were kindof counseling me about like I
was taking a little bit of amedical leave for my own mental
health issues.
And I was in a job where I washaving a lot of like secondary

(09:59):
trauma and I.
I, that sort of like pullyourself up by the bootstraps,
like you need to keep pushing,pushing and being productive and
being able to make money and allthat stuff, which are all
realities.
But I was very held in by that.
And you were like, I think.
Maybe you just need to restuntil your body tells you.

(10:20):
And it's probably going to belonger than you think.
I remember talking to me aboutthat.
But then you also said, youknow, I don't know how or, or,
or, or how it's going to happen,but I'm going to heal my, I'm
going to heal my body.

Kat (10:31):
Wow.
I said that that long ago.
That was years

Val (10:34):
ago.
It had to have been like two,2017.
Yeah.
Probably 2017.
Yeah.

Kat (10:39):
That's really cool.
Thank you for reflecting thatback to me.
Like I.
I, along the way, that felt likea hard thing to hold, but it
always came back, right?
This belief that we could healour bodies.
And I seem to have thisconnection in my mind that, for
me, and I'm, again, we're notsaying this is for every person,
but in my discernment for my ownlife and my own journey, I could

(11:01):
tell that some of my innerhealing stuff, old trauma stuff,
family of origin stuff, it, Itwas connected to my physical
healing, right?
And so when I was able to showup and be really present with
some really difficult thingsthe, then, then healing was just
the next, the next overflow.

Val (11:21):
Would you use the word like, would you describe it as a
release?
Or what happened to the pain orto the trauma?
Do you, do you, how do you

Kat (11:33):
talk about it?
Well, it wasn't exactly the sametimeline.
So, last fall, I would say wouldbe like the throes of some big
Like, I, I can really look backat my story and see that, like,
Abandonment was sort of a corewounding of mine.
Right?
And it was showing up in mypresent day relationships as
well.
And it was sort of echoingFamily of origin, trauma.

(11:56):
And so, you know, I, myunderstanding of how this all
works now, right, I will, I'lljust say like the universe, like
the universe or our own psyche,like we have a tendency to
repeat patterns in the hopes ofhealing it, right?
And so when we find ourselves inrelationships that feel similar,
there's dynamics that aresimilar to our family of origin
stuff, it's because we're drawnto get it right this time,

(12:18):
right?
And so in that, In that, thatwas happening in my life, and I
was just desperate for that tobe resolved, you know?
I started to learn how to reallycenter myself.
I realized that I was allowingpeople close to me that actually

(12:38):
weren't good and talented atloving me when that's my
strongest skill set, right?
You and I are both quite good atrelating and loving other people
well and so I was like, wait aminute, I deserve Oh my God, I
deserve to only have people inmy life that are as good at this
as I am.
And that was huge.
And that came after healing someold trauma stuff that was like,

(13:02):
you know, we just, we werewilling to put up with shit when
I was like, I think I'm doneputting up with

Val (13:06):
shit.
Yeah.
And as you were talking, I wasjust thinking about how that
heals us even because We'reputting ourselves in situations
that are not good for ournervous systems, right?
And then when you're sayinglike, nope, I'm I'm removing
that.
I don't want that anymore.
Yeah, I imagine as well thatthat heals us Right or it takes
us out of a situation wherewe're in the constant state

(13:27):
right of fight or flight orstress Yeah, or so that very act
is like Clearing, like purifyingthe air, if you will, right,
around us.

Kat (13:36):
Yeah.
And so I was able to regulate mynervous system because of all
that, right?
And that's the thing.
Like, I was talking to someoneabout spiritual awakening and I
was like, Oh, what if spiritualawakening is just us learning
how to regulate our nervoussystem and to stop believing
things that make us feel badabout ourselves?
Like, what if it really is thateasy?

(13:57):
Yeah.
And so that's, that's literallywhat I started to do.
And it wasn't, it sounds soeasy.
Like these sentences don'tsound.
Radically difficult.
But the

Val (14:07):
work is difficult.
The work

Kat (14:08):
really is difficult.
And there was more than oneinterpersonal relationship that
I had that I had that Iliterally ended because I was
noticing, I was finally able tosee like, oh, they're not good
at this and I deserve peoplethat are.
Right?
And so,

Val (14:25):
yeah.
I think this is why you and Iresonate so much with each other
because I'd say that thatstatement you made about
spiritual awakening is basicallyhow I do therapy.
Right.
I just started with a new clientthat just really in a real fight
or flight situation and likesmall Nervous system tools

(14:45):
teaching.
Yeah, this person and thenlooking at all the beliefs and
all the shoulds and all thethings that we fear and all
those things things like reallyexamining those and leaving the
things that don't serve us isjust so much of the work that
I'm doing with people.
So, yeah.

Kat (15:02):
You're healing, we're healing ourselves, we're healing
other people.
It feels really good.

Val (15:06):
I had a situation recently where I was around someone that
I hadn't been in a while and Iactually got like physical pain
after having to deal with theirdysfunction and it was like, Oh,
I haven't had this pain in solong and it came so kind of
violently and suddenly as aresult of that stress.

(15:29):
Yeah.
So the more that we can purifythe air, right, of the things
that are just like not good forus.
You were talking about thingsthat just are not good for our
nervous system and then when youhave to go back to it, that's
the best test and the best like,oh wow, like, yeah, I don't have
this pain anymore.
Right.
Yeah.
Oh, I know.
So good.
I know.
You're asking about things I'mlearning.

(15:50):
I think, and this seems.
Yeah.
So simple yet like, oh, well,you know, one of those aha
moments, like you're saying thisstuff in concept isn't hard, but
the application and the work ishard.
I've been thinking about chronicpain and you know, you and I
both suffer from that andchronic illnesses, right?
So then there's even likechronic gut issues and like

(16:12):
migraines and all these thingsthat are chronic that honestly,
Western, like traditionalWestern medicine doesn't have a
lot of options for us, right?
And in my training in EMDR,which, you know, is a modality
of healing they believe thatthat a lot of the chronic pain
is actually emotional or fromtrauma, which makes sense why

(16:32):
maybe it would.
Western medicine doesn't have alot of answers for that, right?
Sorry, kid.
I don't know how to, to helpthis chronic thing that's
happening.
So that made a lot of sense.
And then just talking aboutfascia maneuvers and releases,
right?
I was talking about, you weretalking about following things
that your curiosity and we had ajoke about this guy might be

(16:56):
like, this guy might have acold, but well, you know, we're
not going to get.
like Dan, but maybe some of thethings that he's suggesting
about fascial releases andbringing emotional healing.
And it all kind of kicked inwhen, just reminding of a very
simple fact that like yourfascia, like the connective
tissue or the connection withall your muscles is one of the

(17:18):
biggest organs.
And that would make sense.
If we're thinking on abiological level, right?
Fight, flight, faint, freeze,fawn, right?
Your fight or flight reactionNeeds your muscles, right?
So where are we gonna store allthis information that is trying
to keep you safe?
Right, right.
Yeah.
In your fucking muscles.
Exactly.

(17:39):
What is fibromyalgia?
What's the biggest problem withfibromyalgia?
Right.
Muscle tightness and pain.
Yeah.
And all that kind of stuff,

Kat (17:44):
right?
And we've talked about thisbefore, like, you and I both
score high on the highlysensitive persons list, right?
Mm hmm.
And then, you know, again, Ihave some other additional
neurodiversity and we just aresensitive humans, right?
Yeah.
And we're in this like, Yeah.
fucking chaotic world, right?
And, you know, what's the thebook?
The Body Keeps Score, right?
And so if we're able to say,okay, I'm going to think outside

(18:07):
the box, I'm going to takecontrol of my own life and my
own healing journey.
I'm going to, I'm going to beopen to some alternatives
because this one looks curiousto me, or this one looks shiny
to me, or like this one seems alittle weird, but I can't stop
thinking about

Val (18:20):
it.
Like something about it kind ofseems smart.

Kat (18:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so why the Fuck not, youknow,

Val (18:26):
I think that you and I've talked about, like, even outside
of religion, like sort of thefundamental view or this very
rigid way of like, there's onlyone way.
Right.
And I think even, you know, inthe field of therapy, we've,
we've accepted that most peoplehave an eclectic style and then
there's certain things that maketherapy more, more successful or
not.
And It just, right?

(18:47):
It just seems to make sense.
Why not?
We're all so different.
We all, we all respond tosomething different.
There's modalities or there'sthings that are going to work
for one person and

Kat (18:56):
not the other.
Did you end up going to see thatperson?
I

Val (18:59):
didn't, I didn't yet.
We were so different and I'mjust like, hmm, I'm going to
take it slow.
I'm going to, he's still on myfeed.
Also, he said one thing aboutgetting sunlight in your eyes
and everyone was like, this isterrible advice.
Oh my God.
Stay in your lane.
And so then I was like.

Kat (19:16):
Okay, so if something resonates with you, right,
that's the whole thing.
Okay, so, oh my God.
You're just, people got mad atthat dude because he's like,
look at the sun.
I don't know where I heard itfrom, but a very long time ago,
I heard something that said, Whydo you think they don't want you
to look at the sun?
There's like magic powers orsomething in the sun.
And so when I am on mushroomtrips, I'm not kidding you.
I'm home alone doing mushroomtrips.

(19:37):
Sometimes I have a friend thatcomes over to us mushroom trips
with me and I will go into mybackyard area and I will just
look right at the sun.
I'm like, it's healing me.
I'm getting free, fuckers.
I'm getting so

Val (19:47):
free.
I guess like I doctors say it'svery bad for you to look at the
sun without protection, likevery bad for you.
But but the sun itself, like, Idon't know.
I don't know.
Do your own thing.
I don't know.
Also, it's not.

Kat (20:05):
I've been playing this game where I just am like, I just
choose to me because I'mgamifying my life, right?
And I was like, something in mybody felt like, like energized
when I heard that sentence,right?
And I'm not like a hardcoreconspiracy theorist.
I'm not, but it just, I waslike, Oh yeah.

(20:26):
And I'm like eons of peoples.
existed before you and I, thatsunglasses were not a fucking
thing.
Do you know what I mean?
People worshipped the goddamnsun.
Why can't I look at it if I wantto?

Val (20:39):
Just not for extended periods of time without talking
to your doctor.

Kat (20:44):
Be your own fucking doctor.
That's so funny, I really had nointention of saying that out
loud to anyone ever, but youmentioned it and that's what
made you like a little bitunsure about this dude and I I
love it.
I'm with your doctor, dude.
I, I,

Val (21:05):
I bet you are.

Kat (21:08):
Wait, will you explain, I know, right?
Will you explain what it is thathe does, this fascial dude?
What is the, what is themodality?

Val (21:15):
You know, I've been trying to research him, because I want
to know what kind of fuckingcredentials do you have, sir?
I guess he calls it fascialreleases.
OK, are there certain positions?
Yeah that are healing.
And that's that's the nutshell.
But he also like, yeah, his 25day reset is like, you know.

(21:36):
I don't know.
I think there's supplementsinvolved.
And that's where we gotta,that's where we gotta be.

Kat (21:43):
So, but I saw, I think you sent me a video once, right?
He like will hold a person in acertain way and like kinda...

Val (21:48):
Yeah, in his underwear.
That also was a red flag to me.
I'm like, why are you in yourboxer shorts, dude?
But...
Put some fucking clothes on.
I don't know.
You know me.

Kat (21:58):
I'm, I'm.
Okay.
A lot of times I see this personon TikTok on doing lives on
TikTok.
Yeah.
And they I don't know his name,but he's, he's a healer in
China.
He's Chinese.
And he is, it looks likechiropractic, but what he's
doing is so intense, right?
He's very Yeah.
physical.
Yeah.
And people come in with likedramatic pain, right.

(22:19):
And they're like making noisesand he's pressing on points and
they're like, Oh my God, theycan't even stand it.
Right.
Yeah.
And then he like very physicallyengages with him.
He's got a, a table andsometimes he like stands them
up.
He like reaches from behind andlike, like lifts them and shakes
them.
He does like really aggressivestuff.
Right.
They're fucking pain free there.
You can see the radicaldifference.

(22:39):
Right.
Yeah.
And I'm like, so I don't know,like how much shit gets trapped
in our body and someone that'slike willing to look weird,
right?
Honestly.
Yeah.
Because we don't interact withother adults this way in our
normal society, right?
And there's,

Val (22:54):
Yeah, you know, he's, I mean, there are things I do like
about him.
Yeah.
And like he does talk about likedoing these for your partners or
your friends or like, assistedmaneuvers and ones you can do
yourself and just kind ofclearing things.
I guess I am a believer now thatlike, does like things really
are trapped in your body.
And so, yeah, so we'll see,maybe I will finally, you know,

(23:18):
enter into that world and seewhat happens.
But definitely like, it makessense that like.
If you're trying to activateyour fight or flight, like, you
know, survival, of course, this,this, this information is
getting stored in your muscles.
I love to tell people your brainis trying to keep you safe, not
happy.
Right.
Yeah.

Kat (23:38):
And then, you know, when we learn how to, like, regulate our
nervous system so we're notalways We're not just trying to
stay safe, we just internalizethe knowledge that we are safe.
We can navigate our life forwardin a way where we're not just
surviving.
We're not afraid all the timeanymore.
That's what, you know, all ofthese mushroom trips have really
had the cumulative effect for meof being like, Oh, I don't feel

(24:00):
afraid.
I, I feel afraid of very, verylittle.
And when something shows up thatI'm afraid, I get curious about
my fear about it and then I seewhat is ready to move and move
through and then it just keepsmoving through.
And that's the thing, like, allof us in our culture, we were
taught to clamp down and not letthings move through.
And so, it's so beautiful whenwe can like, you know, get to a

(24:24):
place where like, oh, I'm notafraid of this thing that would
have made me feel afraid beforeand so now I can just navigate
from a place of, I don't know,of like curiosity and openness
and like following my own, like,like passion or, or desire or
like what feels shiny to mewithout fear.
Yeah.

(24:44):
And again I don't wanna make itsound like I have zero fear.
I mean it still shows up but Ijust, I, it doesn't shut me
down.
It doesn't stop me.
I just, I get creative in myproblem solving and I get really
present with it and then I, Ijust feel so much more free.

Val (24:58):
Hmm.
Yeah.
That creativity, the play, thethe nonjudgmental noticing if
you work with mindfulness,right?
All of that.

Kat (25:07):
Looking at the sun.
Hahaha.

Val (25:09):
Hahaha.
Hahaha.
Hahaha.
Hahaha.

Kat (25:17):
I know you can't sign off on that one.
It's like killing you inside.
I

Val (25:20):
know.
No, I'm thinking of somethingelse and I'm like, do I really
want to say it?
But then I'm like maybe I don'twant to go down that rabbit
hole.
But because, you know, likepeople I understand are like
they're.
They're exposing their buttholesto the sun?

Kat (25:37):
I swear to God I heard about this.

Val (25:39):
Yeah, not just like, I mean there's like the aesthetic
people want to bleach theirbuttholes.
Okay, whatever.
But then also that they'reexposing their buttholes because
they think it's good for them.
For their butthole to get sun.
And I want to bring this all theway around, full circle, because
my good friend, best friendtier, she was telling me about

(26:00):
getting screened for sun cancer,skin cancer, from the sun,
right?
Runs in her family, so she'sreal serious about it, and I'm
like, no, the lady at Kaiserjust kind of did a one over,
like, You're good.
I'm like, no, no.
So the next time I went, I'mlike, I want you like, I want to
strip down.
I want you to look, I want youto look real good.
Okay.
And she was telling me like, ohyeah, man, the last time I went,

(26:22):
the lady was like, okay, I'mgoing to now spread your butt
cheeks.
And I'm like, she's looking for.
Skin cancer.
But now it just clicked.
Now I know why.
Because people are starting tolike expose their butthole to
the sun, so she has to checkpeople's butt cheeks now.
Can you imagine being adermatologist and like, can you

(26:43):
guys believe what I have to donow?
I gotta check people's buttcheeks for skin cancer because.
Assholes are literally bleachingtheir asshole in the sun!

Kat (26:54):
Oh my god, that's hilarious.
Okay, beyond some vague it has abenefit, what is it supposed to
be helping people with?

Val (27:02):
I really don't know.
I really don't know.
I'm sure you all

Kat (27:05):
can Google that.
I don't know.
Be careful.

Val (27:07):
Be careful Googling it, people.
We're not, we're not responsiblefor what shows up.
But yeah, that's what I wasthinking in my mind.
So I said it.
There you go.
Thank you.
You made me do it.

Kat (27:18):
Oh my gosh, that's awesome.

Val (27:20):
Oh, Jesus.

Kat (27:24):
Okay, so I've been learning a whole bunch of different stuff
and one of the other things I'vebeen learning, well, okay, it
still is kind of in the categoryof like mushrooms, but like I've
been immersing myself in this,this subculture, right?
I've been reading all thesebooks from people who have been
using various kinds ofpsychedelics for decades, but

(27:44):
they had to go undergroundbecause, you know, the political
system.
So it shows up in the 50s.
Psychedelics show up in the 50sand it's like, hey, this is
gonna make everything better.
Let's use this therapeutically,right?
And it's natural.
It's plant medicine.
And then the government sort ofcracks down because LSD got sort
of like moved out into thepopulace, right?

(28:06):
And then it was stressing peopleout.
Well, I mean, I'm not sayingthat the drug itself was stress
people.
I think that the powers that befelt like it was a, a, a
substance.
We need to control the people.
That they wanted to control.
Right.
Yeah.
Anyway, so it turns out there'slike tons of people out there
that have just continued to usepsychedelics and learn about it
and research it, but they werejust doing it underground.

(28:27):
They're just quiet.
And so now all of them arecoming out with all these
fucking books, right.
And all this information and allthese cool things.
I know.
So I went to this conferenceabout psychedelics.

Val (28:40):
Wait, should we tell them the funny thing that happened
where you're like, do you wantto go with me to this like
mushroom psychedelic thing?
And in my mind, I was like, oh,phew, sorry, Kat, I'm going to
be out of tune.
I don't know how I have anexcuse.
Oh

Kat (28:54):
my God.
I, yeah, I invited a bunch ofpeople.
Nobody wanted to go with me.
I think one friend did, did showup.
No,

Val (28:59):
but then, but then I had a client who was like, Oh my my
friend, wants.
to go to this like, kind ofweird conference.
And then I was like, it's not amushrooms like Zella conference
in Oakland, California, is it?
And she's like, Oh my gosh, howdo you know?
I'm like, well, I have acolleague.
I just call you my colleague.
Whenever I talk about you, I'mlike, I have a colleague who
invited me to go, but thankfullyI was out of town.

(29:25):
I was like, I can't believe thathappened, but yes, sorry, go
ahead, go ahead.

Kat (29:29):
Valerie.
Clearly the mushrooms are afteryou.
Like they keep showing up andyou're like, okay, listen, I
really think this is true.
When things organically justkeep crossing our path.
I feel like it's an invitation.
Listen.
Yeah.

Val (29:41):
Listen, Linda.
I, did you call me Linda?
Yeah.
You know that, you know, thatlittle boy, the video, he's
calling his mom, Linda.
And she's like, why'd you eatthe cookies?
Linda, listen, Linda, Linda,listen.
I, I do think it's one of thosethings that like.
Yeah.
I do have a curiosity, but I'm,I, I do not have, I might have
subclinical ADHD, but I do nothave ADHD.

(30:03):
I am not running fucking towardthese things.
Sure.
I am like standing in thecorner.
Yeah.
Watching everybody else do it.
And then like what could

Kat (30:12):
go wrong?
Remember you told me that amushroom started growing in one
of your plants without anyeffort.
It just like showed up one day.
Like they were like getting yourattention Val.

Val (30:21):
Yes.
Okay.
At some point.
And then maybe we could talkabout it, but, but I'm not, I'm
not doing much, I'm just beingrecorded.
Okay.
Okay.

Kat (30:27):
So I go to this conference, right?
And one of the things that Iobserved, okay, let me just
preface this by saying.
You and I are both people thathave had deep spiritual
practices and now I would saywe're both like really into like
Meditating and like it's a bigpart of my life and then
personal growth and evolutionall that stuff Yeah part of my
life.
Yeah, so I assumed that, like,people who had had access to

(30:52):
this plant medicine, thisparticular tool of psilocybin
found in magic mushrooms, wouldbe more evolved, like they would
have less ego.
Turns out, this is what Ilearned by going to the
conference, there's just nothingnew under the sun, really,
right?
Like, we all...
Like the people that were one,one person in particular that
was kind of in charge of theconference.

(31:13):
I just was like, Oh, you toldme, Oh, this energy is familiar
to me.
And I was like, What is that?
And it just was like, I couldtell there is some ego stuff in
there.
And I was like, Oh, so like egodeath isn't automatic.
With like using this tool,right?
Using magic mushrooms.

(31:34):
And I was like, that is reallyinteresting.
And so If someone is going totake psychedelics, but they,
they, they haven't created aninternal space of like healing
and safety and some of theseother tools, some wisdom, some
like, you know, I'm saying egodeath, but I really mean like
additional like trauma work andyou know what I mean, stuff like
that.
And so I was like.
Oh, there's just no way aroundthe fact that all of us are

(31:57):
going to have to get to a placein our lives where we just look
ourselves square in the face,right?
We contend with ourself, right?
And there are lots of tools andmodalities out there, but You
gotta, at the end of the day, nomatter what you're using, no
matter what it is, no matterwhat helpers you find in your
life, like, you are the onlyperson in charge of your life

(32:21):
and your well being, you know?
Yeah.
And like, you are the onlyperson in charge of like, Who
the fuck you want to be, youknow, and so I thought it was so
interesting It's it helped meadjust my focus that like it's
not that the mushrooms.
They are magic I mean, they'refucking cool, but they're not
going to do all the fuckingwork.
Do you mean you?

(32:43):
We gotta sit with ourselves wegot to be present with what
shows up we gotta say, okay, I'mready to heal Yeah, or I'm ready
to die.
Sometimes dying is the best partof healing.
Mm.
Yeah It's really true.
Yeah, I, I have all, we'vetalked about this before, but
like, I really am like, there'sthe ADHD, but I'm like triple
fire sign and my like starsigns, right?

(33:04):
Yeah.
So like the Phoenix analogy, Ifeel like I've died and was
reborn over and over and overagain.
Like I just keep doing it.
Like, I think I get off on it.
And so like, the death doesn'tscare me anymore, right?
Something scary shows up andmost of us are afraid to look at
it because a part of you willdie.
It's ego, right?
A part of us dies.

(33:25):
But on the other side!

Val (33:26):
Yeah.
So interesting, because, yeah,like the, once you've done it
once, Yeah.
you know that you can come, youdive at something better or more
evolved or pure or whateveradjective you want to use.
Like, something better comes outof that fire, so you're not
afraid to go into it, becauseit's kind of like a good thing.

Kat (33:43):
Yeah.
And it's still uncomfortable,but like, think about it, like
you and I, like, we were, youknow, we're Pentecostal pastors,
right?
And then the death that comeswith that, leaving that
worldview, right?
That was excruciating, but youand I both survived it.
We came to the other side andwe're more free.
Right.
And then I w I saw that mylongterm marriage, right.
I, I.

(34:03):
I didn't really want it to endbut I was evolving in a way that
meant that there was, there wasjust no more resonance with the
person I chose to be married to.
And so I had to let that die andon the other side it was more
and more freedom, right?
And more and more authenticity,right, as we like discover
ourselves on these deeperprofound levels.
And here's the thing I've beenlearning in my own journey.

(34:26):
My, my curiosity and myenthusiasm around psilocybin is
so high that.
It's like, I feel like I'msomeone who's attracted to
extreme sports, but it's on theinside.
Right?
Like, I have this acquaintancethat, like, tried to hike Mount
Everest.
And and so they were doing likeregular updates about it and I

(34:47):
was enthralled for them.
I was like, this is so fuckingcool.
Good for you.
And then I was realizing that myexperience with, with mushrooms
has been, or, or anything thatgets us into a different state
of being, you know, likeunaltered state of
consciousness, our internalspace is as vast as the whole
fucking cosmos.

(35:08):
That thrills me, that thrillsme.
And so anytime we're using atool or a substance or
meditation or breath work,there's lots of ways to get into
this kind of altered state ofconsciousness, to discover
yourself over and over again andhow infinite we are and how
powerful we are and how lovingwe are.
It's goddamn

Val (35:30):
fucking beautiful.
I love it that you just said, Iam into extreme sports, but on
the inside, that needs to go inthe show notes.
I know

Kat (35:39):
that not a kinky thing.
It's not not a kinky thing.

Val (35:44):
But you are like, like the equivalent of like climbing
Mount Everest or like, yeah,doing like triple jumps on your,
on your motorbike.
Right.
Yeah.
Being helicoptered down into A,a, a, a mountain to ski.
That's a thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're doing that on the, onyour mushroom trips.

Kat (36:05):
Yeah.
Well, okay.
When I was preparing for thatconference, I saw that one of
the topics was going to be highdose trips and I was like, Oh,
I'm going to fucking do a highdose then.
Of course you are.
And so I did, I did moremushrooms while I had two
mushrooms, which is enough tohave a pretty significant
psychedelic experience.
And while I was high, I wasoutside and the sun was setting,

(36:26):
I was by myself and I was like,I could finish this fucking bag.
I had a whole ounce and it's, ifyou don't, if you're not
familiar, you don't reallyunderstand how much that is.
It's just a lot of fuckingmushrooms.
And then it turns out I'mlearning a lot about different
varieties of mushrooms andthings.
And so it was a particularvariety.
It was called Avalanche and it'sa particular environment, yeah,

Val (36:46):
extreme sport on the inside.

Kat (36:49):
I know, it like, it fucking ripped me a new one, like, like
reality collapsed in on itselfover and over again.
Like, it's sort of like, it'schallenging, it, it feels like
an extreme sport to let yourselfbe alike.
It feels like, it, your conceptof everything that you know to
be true to allow it.

(37:10):
to be, like, challenged orfucking crushed out of you or
whatever it might be.
Like, sometimes the mushroomtrips are, like, expansive and
lovely and beautiful, but thesehigh dose trips, you're, you're,
I feel like a fucking explorer,right?
And then it took some time tointegrate after that trip that
was, it was intense, it was verylong, like, psychedelics are,
they're a long Psychoactiveexperience.

(37:31):
So they're talking hours,sometimes 10 hours if you take
so much.

Val (37:35):
I know.
So you're saying integratingback into like quotation mark
life.
Yeah.

Kat (37:39):
Because we're still here.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So one

Val (37:42):
time your avatar is still here anyway.

Kat (37:47):
Yeah.
And so.
So then you're like, well, I'mstill here on this planet, so I
gotta, I gotta figure out how tobe a human, right?
But you, but it feels to me verygood to have had these
experiences where I'm like, ohmy god, nothing's real and
Everything is real.
Everything you can imagine isreal somewhere in some fucking
dimension.

(38:07):
It's so weird and so woo woo AndI fucking love it

Val (38:13):
God, I love it so much.
I feel like when you weretalking i'm like And, and, and
we, we want to like keep doingupdates on this podcast, but I
think you need a splinterpodcast of just about mushrooms.
Like I fucking love the magicmushroom story time or whatever.
I don't know.
I don't know.
That's amazing.
Should we, should we break forcommercial?

(38:35):
Let's break for commercial.
Okay.
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Val (39:32):
Oh, hi, we're back.
Hi, Val.
Can we admit that we listened toour jingle because we hadn't
heard it in a while?
It got us back in the mood.

Kat (39:41):
Yes.
Like, aw.
I love our jingle so much.
It always makes me laugh everytime.
I know.
It's pretty funny.

Val (39:47):
Yeah, we did such a good job.
Can I tell you, I saw someone,like an acquaintance from my way
past, and again, not ourdemographic, I would think.
And and he was like, I love thepodcast.
Are you still doing it?
Well, I even like rememberedkind of a funny story or
something.
But I was like, sir, I know thatthe effort probably really.

(40:09):
Offends you.
Like, how did you get past our,don't we swear in the, we do, we
swear in the opening to likeward off like anyone that might
be more offended.
And I don't mean that in a badway.
I mean that in a good way forthem.
Yes.
Like, Oh.
There's a, there's, there's abig F bomb right in the intro.
So I was really, I was reallyconfused by it, but I just went

(40:30):
with it.
And I was like, thank you somuch.
She's like, you really got tokeep doing that.
Oh, you guys are so good, blah,blah.

Kat (40:36):
Well, there's so much aliveness here, right?
People are drawn to that.

Val (40:40):
I think we're almost done with what we're learning, but
I'm seeing this little, thislittle beautiful little vial you
brought me as a

Kat (40:46):
present.
Yeah.
Okay.
So another thing that I learnedhow to do in the last nine
months is Valerie just took awhiff of it.
Okay.
So I am enthusiastic about plantmedicine, and so the only drugs,
quote unquote drugs I've triedare mushrooms and cannabis,
right?
And so I wanted to be able tomake.
Canna oil and it's a whole longprocess.

(41:07):
You and I learned how to do itand I really wanted to make, I
wanted to make pot brownies.
Yes.
And when I was like a teenager Iwas, that 70s show was on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And And I remember seeing it andat one point they're all eating
pot brownies and I, I rememberthe worldview you and I were in
would not allow me to ever havea pot brownie, right?

(41:28):
It was like a no no.
But the, the depiction on thatTV show of people being high on
weed, I was like, that looksfun, right?
That looks fun to me.
And so fast forward.
I'm I'm making canned oil all bymyself and there's, again, it's
a long process and then I, Ifinish it and I make the pot
brownies.
It was this whole long day thingand the whole apartment smells a

(41:50):
little bit like weed becauseI've got it toasting in the oven
and then you infuse the oil inand I was just having the best
fucking day of my goddamn life.
There was a part of me that wasso like, like able to access
this younger version of myselfthat I was like, look, look over
here.
And now I do it every, you know,five or six weeks.
I make a new batch because I useit.

(42:11):
I make pot brownies, right?
And I just like to have the oilaround.
You could put a little in yourcoffee or, you know, however you
want to take it.
But you know, an edible is aneasier high as a body high.
It's a different sensation thanlike.
Smoking marijuana, which is ajust it's a more of a brain high
look at me.
I know about all this shit now

Val (42:29):
Cat's apothecary

Kat (42:30):
so I brought you some canna oil that I made

Val (42:33):
all by myself.
Thank you so much oh, I got alittle oil.
I got some oil.
Thank you so much, Kat.
I, you can

Kat (42:43):
use it as lip balm.
I mean, it will have a littlebit of an effect, But I'm really
proud of that skill.
I have that skillset now andthat feels really fun.
Do really want to do mushroomswith you sometime, or just like
help you get some mushrooms.
You can do a trip by yourself oryou and your feet can do it.
It's so fun.
When reality, like,

Val (42:58):
collapse in on itself.
See, that does not sound fun tome.
Reality collapsing on itself?
No.
That does not sound fun.
Cat.
Jeez.
You and I have a differentdefinition of fun.
No, seriously.
I'm inching closer, whichhonestly is like a big thing for
me because I think controlRight.
Control was a very powerful toolfor me.

(43:21):
Right.
And I still love like I stilllove talking to clients like of
course I like attract the onesthat are probably like me And
you know we talked about Justthe illusion of control right
like releasing that yeah, and Iknow I'm blowing their minds But
I'm like no really when you kindof give up control.
Yeah, and it feels so good.
It's

Kat (43:39):
so freeing I'm experiencing that it feels better and better
and better the better you get atit right and so like living in
unknowns isn't as scary as itonce was for me.
Yeah.
And, you know, I've had to startmy life over a whole bunch of
times.
And I would say that I'mdefinitely in a rebuilding time
now.
I moved past the, like, I gottaheal all this stuff, right, and

(44:00):
now I'm in a, hey, I'm brand newout here in the world and I
gotta, like, figure out what Iwanna do with myself, right?
Yeah.
And so I'm okay with that.
In some ways I feel like I'mstarting from zero, but like
zero is fucking whole.
whole, Val.
And I, I just, my God, it feelsgood.
Yeah.
So trusting that, again, you cancall it God, the universe or

(44:22):
your higher self, whatever itmight be, but trusting that
there, there is.
You know, something larger thanour present reality that is for
us, that is benevolent, thatloves us unconditionally, that
is actively involved in uspursuing a life that we want to

(44:43):
be living.
You know?
Like, life doesn't have to bedifficult we get to choose how
we respond to any kind ofstimuli, right?
Yeah.
So, one of the things I'mlearning is I'm playing this
game where...
I, I continually want to beshedding beliefs that don't
serve me, right?
And again, you and I, ourbackground belief was a very

(45:04):
dogmatic, truth capital T, andyou know, to the exclusion of
other people's beliefs.
That's the world view you and Icame from.
So to have a belief felt like abig loaded big deal, right?
Yeah.
And I spent some time exploring.
In, like, you know, kind ofBuddhist philosophy, this idea
of, like, non belief, like youbelieve everything and nothing,

(45:24):
right?
And you don't attach to ideasand all those kinds of things.
And then more recently, I wasintroduced to this idea that You
can let go of a belief.
It just doesn't feel good toyou, just let it go.
And like that makes you seemcrazy in our like mainstream
world, right?
Or like, I just don't want tobelieve that so I'm not going to
believe that, right?
And then you choose a beliefthat feels helpful to you.

(45:46):
So like a simple one is like, Ijust believe that I'm super
fucking lucky.
Right?
I just believe that I am.
I look back at my life and I'mlike, everything always works
out for me.
Right?
And then I believe that whateverchallenging thing I may
experience in the future, like,it is in some way for my
benefit.
Like that's just my worldviewnow, right?

(46:07):
I get to decide that and thenhow fucking fun like if I get a
flat tire or somethinginconvenient happens, I can just
be like, huh, I wonder how thiswill work out for my benefit as
opposed to what we do, all thechemicals released in our body
when we go into like scarcity oflike, Oh my God, I'm going to
pay for this.
What's going to happen?
It is a much different realityand we actually have control

(46:27):
over that.
Based on what we choose tobelieve this feels radical to me

Val (46:33):
It definitely it definitely is for for a society for our
society where there's so manythings that are not serving us
right and We might havementioned the book before.
Sapiens I forget the theauthor's name, but I I think
that book Was it was what I tookaway from it or one of the
things was Just the realizationof how many things are made up.

(46:56):
Oh, totally.
Like, how many things are madeup.
I love to tell clients to do it.
It's all made up.
It's all made up.
And getting back to like what'sreally important, right?
I have a lot of clients reallystruggling with work right now.
And it's like, what, what isreal?
Yeah.
Nature.
Yeah.
Your, your, your children, yourrelationships, right?

(47:16):
Like the sun shining down rightnow.
Those things are real.
Yeah.
So, corporations, made up! Madeup.
Money, made up! Money is fuckingmade up.
Rules and regulations ofsociety.
I know.
Made up.
Etiquette is super made up.
Etiquette.
I know.
Super

Kat (47:34):
made up.
Professionalism?
Made

Val (47:36):
up.
Made up.
Yeah.
What, what, what, body is, is,is Ideal.
Ideal.
Yeah.
Made up.
Made up.
It's all made up.
Yeah.
So, it, it, like, again, backto, it's radical and yet it's
very simple.
Mm hmm.
Oh, do you want to believe that?
I mean, there's certain things,right?
Maybe gravity?
I don't know.
I mean, maybe not when you're onmushrooms, but like, We're not

(47:57):
saying like, like, you know,like there's certain things that
maybe are tangible and true, butBut a lot of things, most things
are just made up.

Kat (48:05):
Right.
Yeah.
And then again, so here's thething, like I feel like being
personally empowered is reallyreally important to me and as a
parent it's what I, I feel likeI drill home to my children,
right?
And I was on a drive with themthe other day, I was like,
what's the one thing I want youguys to know?
You guys tell me what you thinkit is.
And they both came up with, youknow, essentially the, the right
answer, but it's autonomy.
It's that you are in charge ofyour life.

(48:27):
You're in charge of it.
You get to decide for yourself.
And our culture has been veryeffective at, at grinding that
out of us and telling us that wehave to submit to this set of
rules or this kind of reality orthis is how the world works.
Well, fuck all of that.
If it doesn't feel good, if itfeels oppressive, it creates a
lot of fucking dread in yourlife.

(48:48):
Play around with what newbeliefs can create some
spaciousness, right?
Wow.

Val (48:54):
As you're talking, I'm just thinking about, you know, we
talk a lot about healthism wherelike.
Part of the belief is like youcan determine your health.
Sure.
You are in a hundred percentcontrol of your health Yeah,
which we would probably saythat's not really true right
genetics and environment allthose things So it's almost like
you're saying the same thingthat is opposite, but it's it's

(49:15):
it's

Kat (49:15):
different.
Well, okay Here's the thing.
There are paradoxes everywhere.
Yeah, and honest to God themushrooms They they when you go
to altered states of reality, itdoesn't matter if you use
mushrooms, right if you go to adifferent state of consciousness
where you're aware but you'reelevated in some kind of way.
Again, breath work, meditation,anything.

(49:35):
You create space in yourthinking mind to hold dualities,
to hold paradox, to hold theboth and.
Right?
And so, Both things are true andso when you come back and you're
like, well, this is my one lifeand right now I'm still
experiencing symptoms of achronic illness, what the fuck
do I want to do about it?
Do I want to be...

(49:57):
A victim?
Or do I want to explore healingmodalities?
Do I want to explore radicalacceptance?
Do I want to explore what thisexperience is, is maybe opening
up to me?
Like, I, I fuckin learned somuch from the disability justice
movement.
Do you know how much, like,confidence it gave me that like,
fuck everybody, I get to live myfull life in the body I inhabit,

(50:19):
right?
And it, It crushed out of mesome ableist beliefs, right?
And so I got, I got to infuse mylife with that power, right?
And so again, you live in theboth and you, you own whatever
is really true about your ownlife.
Yeah.
I

Val (50:35):
mean, I guess, I guess they sound, I guess my point was they
sound similar, but they're not.
Right.
Where like where one might bemore blame or, or the pull up
your bootstraps.
Right.
I think, If, if, if you didn'tlook close enough, to me, it
kind of sounded almost like youwere saying the same thing, but

(50:56):
not.
But not.
But not guys, not.
That it was like, you're incontrol of how you experience
your reality.

Kat (51:05):
Well there, that's a perfect sentence.
All of us are in control of howwe experience our reality.
Yeah.

Val (51:13):
Why not make it pleasurable?
Why not make it as less

Kat (51:17):
painful?
And I think why not is becausetrauma locks us in.
I really do.
That was my experience.
And that's why all of thisfreedom came after this intense
fucking season of some reallyhard shit.
I had to look at some painfulthings.
There was a moment where I wasdoing what I would call shadow
work or trauma work and someintense feelings came up and I

(51:39):
was terrified.
And it lasted several minutes ofexperiencing the terror that I,
I, I just, I had to kind of letit come through, right?
And, and it's interesting thatwe could spend decades or a
whole life avoiding a fewminutes of something really
painful.

Val (51:59):
Oh, okay.
Two quotes.
Yes.
One is from the, the TraumaFoundation NICAM that says What
we are all trying to avoid issensations in our bodies.
Whoa.
Yeah.
Right?
Like that's, like, you just saidit.
Yeah.
Like it wasn't, it's, is it thememory?
Yeah, but it's the sensation inyour body.
So everything we're doing iswe're trying to avoid, right?

(52:21):
Like people pleasing.
Totally.
I don't like the feeling of mybody when someone's mad at me.
Exactly.
Right?
Failure.
I don't like the feeling when Ifeel ashamed.
Right.
So that's why the body work isso important.
Yeah.
The other one that I sawrecently was something along the
lines of we are not healingtrauma so that we can So that we

(52:42):
can stand the trauma hmm, we'rewe're healing the trauma so we
can experience more love and joyyes Ah, that's exactly what,
like you just said, I love it.

Kat (52:53):
And, okay, so when, it's so empowering to own your whole
entire story, right?
Did this painful thing happen toyou?
Yes?
Okay, what are you going to dowith it?
Right?
And I don't mean that in like anoppressive way, and it doesn't
feel fair.
I don't think life is fair.
It's not about fairness.
Right.
It's about, this is what myreality has, has contained.

(53:16):
This is what my story iscontained.
And so how am I going to chooseto respond to that?
Right.
And from a very young age, I waslike, I'm getting fucking whole.
Right.
And then several years ago, Iwas like, Oh, I am whole.
Right.
And then it was, Oh, there'sstill, there's some trauma stuff
here.
I can, I can tell.
Right.
And then, and then, you know, itwas be present with everything

(53:38):
that was showing up.
And then on the other side ofthat, that's the thing that I'm
so enthralled about, because onthe other side of it, I feel
that I get to And again, I feellike I'm starting from zero, but
zero with all kinds of unlimitedfreedom because I'm not locked
into behavior patterns likecodependency because of old

(54:00):
trauma.
I have complete freedom to belike, oh, oh, here's a simple
little codependent example.
Whenever I would get any kind oflike phone notification, I
would.
have a physical reaction ofurgency to respond.
I do not have that experienceanymore.
I just happen to notice one daythat like someone's texting me
and I am aware that they textedand there's no reaction in my

(54:23):
body and I know that whateverI'll get to it when I, whenever
I'm done with what I'm doing.
That is different, right?
And that's the difference oflike It's such a simple example,
but, you know, even withinterpersonal relationships,
like, I don't double textanymore.
Not that that's inherently wrongor bad, but I used to be the

(54:43):
initiator, the initiator,because I'm very good at that.
And now I'm like, oh, nope.
If someone wants my time andattention they have to be
emotionally mature, not justemotionally intelligent.
Those are different things Ilearned, right?
And so, they, I deserve to besought out, and so I just, you
know, I have I love that.

(55:04):
I love that feeling of like, I,I'm not chasing anybody.
I just fucking love myself.
It's so fun.
I'm not fucking lonely.
I'm doing awesome.

Val (55:16):
I love that you said like, okay, this is what happened.
What are you going to do?
And I think even just theautonomy to be like, I'm not
going to do anything right now.
Yes.
I don't want to do anything.
Yeah, I don't.
I feel like we've been talkingabout learning and moving
around.
I feel I've talked about thisbefore.
I feel so free and once thepeople are like, well, what do
you believe as far asspirituality now or God or

(55:37):
whatever?
And I'm like, you know, I don'tknow.
Yeah, I'm OK with that.
Yeah.
And I'm OK.
Like.
Leaving the time for whatevermay come after, but I think it
wasn't okay to be like, I don'tknow, or I'm undecided.
Oh, right, right.
Just kind of leaving that open.

Kat (55:53):
Well, our old worldview really told us that was somehow
a failure, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
To not like have decided thatthe mysteries of the fucking
universe, you happen to know.
Yeah.
right?
Yeah.
And so when you leave arestrictive worldview like that
and you come to a place of like,I'm comfortable with the not
knowing.
Yeah.
I think that's powerful.
Oh,

Val (56:10):
it is.
And it feels, I feel okay withit.
Yeah.
Even with, I know we talkedabout like, Oh, reasons why we
might not be doing the podcastas often as like, Oh, I really
need to like build my businessand do this.
And I've been allowing myselfthe space.
Well, first of all, we got, Idon't have to manage an Airbnb
anymore.
Oh, right.
Yeah.
And realizing that how much,even with all I know and all

(56:34):
that I'm aware of how much westill underestimate stress in
our lives and it actually took awhile for me even to realize
like, Oh, I feel different nowbecause that, that kind of,
because it was a 24 hour stress,right?
Like something could, some kindof fuckery could happen at any
moment.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Iguana's getting stuck in theHVAC and coming back again and

(56:58):
all the things, right?
Realizing what a toll it wastaking on me and giving myself
more time, right?
Oh, okay.
I stopped that.
So I'll have more time to workon my business.
Actually, you need some time tolike heal and kind of let that
again.
I love going back to like thefarming, like the fallow ground,
like how smart that is.
I think because in my mind, if Iwas left to my own devices, I'd

(57:19):
be like, Oh no, we need to likealways be that must be good for
the land.
But no, you need to let it.
Like rest and kind of die andlet it get or re nurture itself.
Whatever, right?
And so I'm actually okay withthese times, so I'm like, I
don't know, I don't know if Ireally want to do that.
Do I really, do I really want toinvolve myself or do, you know,

(57:40):
in, in what it seems like now ishow to grow a business.
Right.
Sounds terrible.
Totally.
Social media sounds terrible.
Yeah.
You know, so right now I'm like,I'm, I'm, I'm allowing myself
that space and, and maybethere'll be other ways,
whatever.
But, I think

Kat (57:59):
I'm learning.
And we're allowed to change ourmind.
Yes.
We can get really excited abouta thing and then, again, our
culture really drilled thishole.
You gotta see something throughto the end.
Why?
That's made up.
You can follow something becauseit's lighting you up, it's
making you feel energized.
And then if the energy shifts,which it fucking does sometimes,
then you just can stay presentwith wherever your curiosity is

(58:22):
taking you.
And that is not a moral failure.
That is just being open andresponsive to what is making you
feel the most alive.
That's a good way to live ourlives.

Val (58:32):
We've been talking about like what we're learning, what
we're moving around.
And I think just recently.
And I don't know, controversialtake or not.
I think I'm realizing, sowithout like the promise of the
afterlife, right?
We realize the afterlife gets usto do things.
It gets us to behave a certainway.
Oh, sure.

(58:52):
During, on earth.
And then there's promises aboutthen you might not reap the
rewards.
This is why you should do thisbehavior.
In our old worldview.
Yeah, yeah.
And then you get it in theafterlife.
I mean, also people with, liketalking about karma and
different things, right?
Totally, yeah.
Like this is why you should do acertain thing.
I think I'm just noticing myselfbeing like, I only have one

(59:13):
short life to live, at least inthis.
I don't know if I believe inreincarnation yet, but you know,
like in this, this life, thisone right here, this is the only
one I have.
And it's, I don't know how longit's going to be, but even if
it's to 90 or a hundred, it'sstill not a long time.
I want to make decisions.

(59:34):
about how I want to live thislife and what kind of suffering
comes with some of our decisionsthat we make for other people.
Sure.
And like, I've been findingmyself saying like, I used to
kind of be annoyed with peoplewho were like, Oh, you know,
YOLO or like, you know, well,you know, life is short.
Yeah.
Like, cause it felt like it wasa permission to either behave
badly or to indulge.

(59:55):
Sure.
Or it seemed like a reason.
And so sorry to all those peoplethat I judged the best.
I was an asshole, but I get younow.
Now I, I see, I'm like, no, lifeis short and I want to make
decisions that are going toallow me to enjoy it.
To allow me to have the leastsuffering as possible.

(01:00:16):
We've talked about this before,but again, just noticing rooting
out all the ways that I thinklife should be hard.
Like how my life is maybe lesshard because I don't have
children.
Like, isn't that a weird thingto think?
Yeah.
Like, oh, I should be, like,suffering.
Right.
Or like, with theresponsibilities or the trials
of parenting.
Right.
Like, I should be suffering.

(01:00:36):
Like, that, how does that, howdid I get that?
I know how, but like, how did Iget the thought that, like, I
should be suffering in thisworld, it's just wild.
It is, yeah.
But I feel like I'm sheddingthose.
You

Kat (01:00:49):
are shedding that.
And it feels good.
I'm excited for you.
So, that leads us into our thirdquestion, which is, what's
bringing you pleasure?
And I think, you know, it feelsreally fucking cool and radical.
It was really radical to both ofus when we first heard that
concept, right?
Like how to center pleasure inyour life.
That was a fucking no, no.
Right.
And our culture at large, youhave to earn all the pleasure

(01:01:09):
you get.
Right.
And that's bullshit.
That's made up.

Val (01:01:11):
You have to be good

Kat (01:01:12):
to have pleasure.
Totally.
Yeah.
And fuck it all.
So like pleasure can be as.
simple as, you know, a warmraspberry pick from the bush,
right?
And you're just present in thisfucking moment, right?
The gentle breeze on your face.
It doesn't have to beextravagant though.
Extravagance is completelyfucking allowed.

Val (01:01:33):
Yeah.
Have you heard this?
I don't think we talked about inthe podcast yet, but people were
talking about the concept of aglimmer.
Which is the opposite of atrigger.
Like follow the glimmers.
And you talk about shiny things.
But like those little momentswhere you see like, you know a
flower or you hear your favoritesong or you have like a pleasant

(01:01:54):
exchange with a stranger.
Right?
Like those little glimmers.
So following and just reallyEnjoying and savoring.
That's the word I've beenlooking for all day.
Savoring.
Yeah.
These moments.
It's so good for your fuckingmental health.
Savoring.
So looking for those glimmers.

Kat (01:02:11):
Savoring is being present

Val (01:02:14):
in the fucking moment.
Savoring is mindfulness.
Yes.
It is.
Savoring is being present.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Kat (01:02:18):
That's so

Val (01:02:19):
good.
I love it.
I like that.

Kat (01:02:20):
So what specifically is bringing you pleasure these
days?
You know,

Val (01:02:24):
I think that in general I have just been Kind of like
releasing myself to just be assilly and like playful as I want
to be all the time.
Ooh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, I don't think I had aproblem with that before.
My attitude toward it has beendifferent.
Like, maybe a certain way youshould act.

(01:02:45):
Like, no, I'm going to be assilly, make as many jokes.
Even if that means I kind offeel like, unrestrained,
unrestrained.
Yes.

Kat (01:02:54):
Unediting.

Val (01:02:54):
Yes.
Unrestrained, unedited, likejust be silly and goofy and
funny.
And I'm still, still having alot of joy in Pickleball.
We've done pickleball partybuses, like they tell you about
that, playing pickleball in likewine country went to Hawaii, oh,
all of our love goes to peopleof Hawaii playing tournaments
there field trips just, just somuch fun playing and yeah, oh,

(01:03:20):
this is, so this is all theunrestrained, there's this
playfulness that I don't thinkwe get as adults where it's
like, you're kind of obsessedwith something.
Maybe video games are kind ofthe same, anytime you get,
you're like, when can I go play?
And then you're like, you needyour friends.
You need your friends on theblock.
Like who's playing and like whatother like fun ways can we play
this game in like differentlocations or whatever.

(01:03:40):
But it is, if I get this imageof like being on like the block
as a kid and then like, you justwant to pick up game or you just
like, you need your friends toplay and you just can't wait to
be playing again.
Yeah.
So I'm surrounded with peoplewho also, there's the
curmudgeons, but like most ofthe people, it's like they are
activating that same like, okay,let's go play.

(01:04:02):
And I, Oh, I think play is sucha big part of what we need.
Yeah.
And someone just gave me like afeedback of like a newer friend
that, that I guess I had sort oflike really had an impact by
talking about play and how I'mlike, I think you need more play
in your life and how, howchildren play when they feel

(01:04:23):
safe and how we need play.
Oh, there's another stat abouthow.
Basically, it was, we can takeon concepts through play so much
quicker.
Oh, a hundred percent.
You saw that, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was like, you know, 20 repsversus 10, 000 reps or something
like that, right?
How through play, and that's whygamifying your life, making,

(01:04:46):
making it a game.
Yeah.

Kat (01:04:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know when, when the questionlike what's bringing you
pleasure, literally what I wrotedown was gamifying my life, like
that's my answer too.
Like it, it's an infusion ofcreativity, right?
Yeah.
And then it makes us feelpowerful.
any situation and figure out howto make it a game.
Like, literally something thatyou don't want to happen can be

(01:05:10):
like, I'm going to turn thisinto a game.
I'm going to, like, I'm going toplay I'm going to play with how
am I going to turn this intosomething that I want it to be
now, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a little bitvague, but I do it all the time.
All, all kinds of stuff.
Like, oh, I dishes at my house.
Like, my kids are pretty helpfularound the house and I'm not a
very authoritarian.

(01:05:32):
I'm like, hey, they're oldernow, they're middle schoolers.
And so I'm like, hey, we alllive together.
We need to cooperate in ourliving environment.
We all have different thingsthat we're going to do.
And so they've tried differentchores and I try to get both of
them to do the dishes and theyjust don't want to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I was like, you know what?
I'm going to take one for theteam.
I'm going to be the person thatdoes the dishes.
I typically have not enjoyeddoing dishes, but it turns out

(01:05:54):
about once a week, I love to dothe dishes.
And it's so funny because Idecided to let myself do it when
I want to do it.
And that's so fun, right?
And then what do you want to dowhile you're doing the dishes?
I like to listen to anaudiobook.
I like to be a little bit high,right?
And then it's like a fuckingsensory pleasure.
Also, I put a rolly chair in mykitchen, so there's like an

(01:06:17):
office chair, like by the sink.
I am fucking slowly vibing out,washing the dishes, having the
best fucking time, right?
And that feels so different thanlike, I gotta do this thing, I
gotta be responsible, I'm tiredof the kitchen being a mess.
Sometimes it is that I'm tiredof the kitchen being a mess, but
I will make sure that I make itplayful, right?

(01:06:39):
That I make it fun to me.
Yeah, why not?

Val (01:06:41):
Why not?

Kat (01:06:42):
Because it's just so much better.
Yeah, everything's better whenyou make it a game.

Val (01:06:48):
Oh, that's so good.

Kat (01:06:50):
Yay.
Yay.
Oh Val, it's been so nice tolike look at your face and watch
you as you tell great stories.

Val (01:06:58):
It's good to be in this space again.

Kat (01:07:00):
Yay.
I didn't even talk about aliens.
You

Val (01:07:03):
did it.
I talked about buttholes.
That was not on my bingo cardfor today, but yeah.
Can I tell them?
Well, I can edit this out, butyou were like I haven't even
told you about the aliens yet,Val.
The aliens.
And I'm like, what are theytelling you?
Like, are they just saying like,I love you, cat.
I love you.
You're so amazing, cat.
You're like, yeah, but there'sother stuff too.

(01:07:24):
I can't, I can't tell you what apolo.

Kat (01:07:29):
Oh my God.
Oh my gosh, the, yeah, it's awhole thing.
We'll save it.
We'll save it.

Val (01:07:33):
We'll save it.
That's a teaser.
I love you, Kat.
I love you now.
Bye.
Bye.