June 14, 2022 • 53 mins
Our hosts jump into some big feelings as Kat shares about a recent romanic break up. Val imparts humor and wisdom from her own lived experiences along with some spectacular insights she’s gleaned as a therapist. Get ready to laugh and heal with our hosts as they help us reconcile hard things and find peace in moments where love didn’t go the way we had wanted.
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast
Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club
Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art
Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
(00:34):
Kat.
we're here.
It's pod cast.
Kat (00:38):
Hi
Val (00:40):
Hi,
Kat (00:44):
listeners.
We hope that you aresufficiently tantalized.
Val (00:48):
Oh oh, That sounds like a very, formal lover.
I hope you're sufficientlytantalizing.
Kat (00:57):
Well, okay.
So seriously, it was, it wasweeks ago now that I was like, I
got the idea to like Taylorswift about this.
And, um, I thought it was thefunniest fucking thing ever to
be like, I have a fuckingpodcast.
So like coping with a breakupI'm going to tear a swift on you
motherfuckers.
Yeah.
Watch yourself people.
(01:18):
So in
Val (01:18):
tell my story,
Kat (01:19):
yeah.
You know, like the stages ofgrief, I think it was like an
anger stage.
Val (01:23):
And now you're like, oh, listeners.
I love to be on the sidelineswith my popcorn.
Watching cat does run headlonginto things that are going to
hurt later.
Kat (01:34):
oh my God.
Val (01:35):
Ah,
Kat (01:38):
Thank you for that.
Val (01:39):
cause I know you have to do, them.
right.
Even he, the other day.
I don't know if you want to tellthis story Even the day, You're
like, I did a thing and I waslike, what'd you do Kat?
And then you're like, I want tocall somebody.
I'm like, I know she's justgoing to do it.
You're not even asking myopinion, your.
Kat (01:57):
I also some of this is my personality.
I can't fucking help it
Val (02:01):
I actually really do feel like it's an ADHD thing.
We haven't brought a bait HD ina while.
Oh, I see it.
Humans who have ADHD.
When they have a thing in theirmind And I've talked about this
with my husband.
There's no compromising, there'sno compromising.
It's like, this is how you doit.
And I've seen that in YouTube.
Dear friend.
Kat (02:18):
Oh, I don't deny that
Val (02:19):
You're not changing my mind on the title.
Val,
Kat (02:23):
You know, that's really funny.
Cause I don't think of myself asbeing particularly rigid.
Like I'm pretty open-minded andkind of chill about a lot of
shit, but yeah, once in a whileI'll dig in and I'm like, Nope,
Val (02:31):
I just think It's clarity of idea.
and maybe a Tiny bit of thathyper-focus and just like, No,
this is it also.
I really respect it in manyways.
a great energy to.
I know that you just have to dothis.
Kat (02:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I have ADHD and I'm like atriple fireside.
That's a lie.
That's a lot of.
PECI Lewis energy that lives inme sometimes.
That's why I have to nap somuch.
It seems counterintuitive, butI'm telling
Val (03:03):
no cause you yeah, he's exhausting.
to be that hyped up.
Be that.
Kat (03:08):
Oh my God.
Val (03:09):
my gosh.
Kat (03:10):
So in case we're being a little too vague and maybe you
didn't listen to the lastepisode, this episode is about
breaking up like romanticbreakups.
And
Val (03:18):
breaking up
Kat (03:19):
just had this like profound experience of being like
intensely in love with someoneand then it not working out the
way I wanted it to and valuehave a lot of fucking great
wisdom about.
things you share with yourclients and things that you've
lived through about likebreaking up and romantic
partnerships.
And, and so we are going to doour best to like lay some shit
(03:42):
bare and then like, maybe giveyou some like, you know, helpful
things.
If you're going through abreakup or, you know
Val (03:51):
you know, someone who's going through a breakup
Kat (03:53):
Just tell them to listen to the podcast.
Val (03:55):
Yeah.
And I think Right?
Part of this podcast is us.
telling a story is telling aboutour lives.
and It's a human experience.
Right.
And that's kind of what we dois.
we bring The human to the humanexperience.
Kat (04:07):
experience Yeah.
So this human experience
Val (04:10):
Go ahead.
Kat, we're going to start withyou
Kat (04:12):
We'll start at the very beginning.
It was the week of Thanksgivingmotherfuckers.
Val (04:20):
It was
Kat (04:21):
Well, um, so just to share a little bit, I had been dating,
as many people as I could, Lastyear and exploring something
called non-monogamy or polyamoryand learning a lot about myself.
Because I wasn't really sure,like, am I the kind of person
that can be in love with morethan one person at once?
I don't know that about myself.
(04:41):
Am I someone that can like dateand like, go out and have a fun
time with this person and go outand have fun time with this
person.
that looks a little bit morelike just non-monogamy and I'm
like, yeah, I can do that.
That's, that's kind of fun forme.
But then I was flirting withsomeone and it escalated really
fast and I just couldn't fuckingbelieve how much I liked them.
And then the, kind of intensityof falling in love really.
(05:03):
And her falling in love with metoo.
And it feeling like I had met mysoulmate.
And, um
Val (05:10):
was on a little six week trip.
And you were like, Hey,
Kat (05:14):
Yeah.
If you guys listened to theearlier podcasts, you hear me
say it, I'm like fuckingdelighted.
I'm like I have to love isamazing.
And It feels really, really goodto be in love.
Val (05:25):
and it was amazing.
can we hold the both and
Kat (05:28):
Oh yeah Yeah.
there's no part of me.
That's trying to like burn shitdown, even though I am a triple
fire sign.
even again, like referencing thejoke I was making about Taylor
sifting.
I also have to go through allthe stages of grief, but the
truer thing is, is there's nopart of me that would
assassinate someone's characteror, oh, they're trash because
they're not
Val (05:45):
Right.
And if, and if we're not gettingthe cultural reference.
Anybody out there doesn't knowTaylor
Kat (05:49):
swift
Val (05:49):
uh she's.
well, she's, infamous for,talking about her
Kat (05:54):
not infamous famous.
I love this quality about her.
She's also a Sagittarius, soshe's a fire sign So she sings
about all of her past lovers.
Right.
And she'll
Val (06:05):
does a Dell, so, I mean, so
Kat (06:07):
know I'm going to reference an Adele song.
Val (06:09):
oh yeah.
Kat (06:10):
So that kind of is part of my healing journey.
And this is a
Val (06:13):
You got to know yourself to know if you can handle listening
to an Adele song.
Can you emotionally.
handle it?
Kat (06:20):
So this profound connection that I, I have, it happened
really fast.
I am the kind of person thatlikes to run at stuff, it's
these fire signs, it's the ADHD,it's it feels good.
And I lived so much of my life,really measured and like self
controlled because of purityculture and because of the
religious construct we were in.
I can tell there is this thingin me, that's like, fuck
(06:43):
everything.
I'm going to be a messy bitch.
I didn't get to do any of thatfucking shit.
Right.
And so now I'm like, oh, I'm solike a wise I'm like a deeply
wise, really embodied person.
So I think that I should be ableto do what the fuck I wanna do.
Val (06:59):
And if you run at things, like all that wisdom is going to
just be on autopilot.
Kat (07:03):
It turns out that.
Genuinely a wise person, likeit's really true, but also kind
of fucking naive.
Like I haven't actually been inthat many, like in love
relationships, right.
This person who like racked mywhole fucking world and it's
going to be hard for me not tocry.
I just do cry a lot.
(07:24):
So listeners, you can just liketrust that I'm okay.
Val is here with me.
Val is like the best human inthe whole fucking world.
Val (07:35):
well look, I want to normalize that, we are all
really stupid.
in love.
We're all really stupid.
And that was part of my story?
That like, shit, I did not makea God to suit to that first.
after a couple of years, I waslike, shit, what did I do?
I missed blind spots and we allhave that blind spot Every
healer has that blind spot.
(07:56):
that's part of the pressure Ifelt in, being a pastor was
like, I had to marriage had tolast And that's just not true
because I think that all thechemicals that get released at
the dopamine and the oxytocin,they're like a bright light.
shining.
And so all the red flags gethidden,
Kat (08:17):
So like bleached out.
That's funny.
You
Val (08:19):
their bleeds.
Tell You kids, see him
Kat (08:20):
That's a great visual.
Yeah.
and then also in the beginningof a love connection, especially
when the chemistry is so intensebut the experience that I just
had with this, like amazing.
Was unlike anything I'd everexperienced.
And I was like, this is sounique.
It must be, I found my foreverperson.
(08:42):
And it was interesting becauseit was at a time I wasn't
looking for a forever person.
I was looking to like, have morepeople to date and have new
experiences with and connect
Val (08:52):
I remember you were, do you want to hang out this weekend?
Oh, I got like three dates.
Yes, you were on that train
Kat (09:01):
yeah.
And so that was the other thing.
It felt really kind of mysticalbecause the connection was so
profound and so strong, eventhough we were long distance,
they live states away from me.
I paused all of my sexualconnections just because I was
like, whoa.
And again, I was in thatdiscovery phase of like, am I
someone that can be in love withmultiple people at the same
time?
And I still don't totally knowif I know the answer to that,
(09:22):
but this experience made me feellike, I don't think I can, but
also, obviously if you've beenlistening to the podcast, I'm
someone that has kind of bigenergy.
I take up a lot of space in theworld.
and so that was one thing that'sreally true of this woman I was
in love with is that, she's aforce.
And one of the things that wouldsort of amaze us that were like,
yeah, I've never met anyone thatcan match my energy, the way you
(09:44):
match my energy.
And it felt so.
Balanced.
And, where we had a lot ofcompatibility and then there
were some areas where I wasstrong and they were her weaker
areas and then areas where I wasweak and they were her, her like
excelling areas.
And I thought, holy shit, thisis so amazing, you know?
And then, she made me feel.
(10:05):
So good in ways that I've neverfelt before.
And, I'm just someone who is wooenough to be like magic happens
and you're like aligned.
And so the, the universe bringspeople into your life.
Val (10:20):
with love, you always got to double check the university's
work.
Okay.
You can quote me on that.
I just came up with that.
You always have to double checkthe university's work when it
Kat (10:30):
do that What does that even mean?
I love it
Val (10:32):
but yeah, I would tell all my clients this week, all the
booboo bitches that I haveworked with, I love you
Kat (10:38):
Oh my God.
Once the relationship startedgetting like more complex, Um,
we were, we were talking aboutattachment styles and so she has
a disorganized attachment style.
And so that was really showingup in our relationship.
Was that.
They would pull back in someways or they would get sort of
like overwhelmed and, wouldtrigger this like anxiety in me
(11:00):
I have to fix all this.
And, they were really faithfulat doing like a lot of internal
work.
And I was so in awe of how muchthey could kind of process and
synthesize.
And because they were in therapyand they were doing all their
trauma work, it just keptfeeling like this is going to be
fine.
This thing that I'm like, that'skind of a red flag.
I was like, that's okay.
We can heal all this shit.
We're going to heal each other.
(11:20):
It's going to be amazing we hadlike some really profound
experiences that felt likehealing, you know, to both of
us.
We had said a lot of things backand forth to each other.
It felt like we were going tohave a future together.
at one point she called me thelove of her and and then she
broke up with me.
Um, and we were trying to decideif we, could be friends and I
(11:45):
wasn't sure, I wasn't sure whatI was capable of because.
I was aware that I was justreally, really in love with her.
And I had a really hard timeletting go of these things that
we said back and forth to eachother.
That again, if you've listenedto last week's episode, we were
talking about like, how do youreorganize yourself?
I had jumped all the way in andI was so enthralled with this
(12:06):
human I don't know how to not bein love with you I don't know
that I could just be yourfriend.
So we're trying to figure thatout.
And we had a check-inconversation.
I actually, we were justtexting, but it was two weeks
after she had broken up with me.
She told me she was in love withsomebody else and I was, I was
really devastated.
full disclosure, it's not likeit was stranger.
(12:28):
It when we had met, we weretrying to explore we're long
distance.
We should still be able to, meandate other people.
This was someone that she hadhad been kind of on and off
again with
Val (12:38):
Because can I say,
Kat (12:39):
yeah
Val (12:39):
I think you both were sort of exploring polyamory.
Kat (12:41):
Yeah.
This was their first time, andactually their therapist was
like, would you consider tryingpolyamory because it helps you
not get so like obsessive aboutone person, that's the theory,
We got pretty obsessive abouteach other.
So Again, in one of the earlierepisodes, I referenced the fact
that I needed to center myselfbecause I was noticing that the
(13:01):
attachment style issues thatkept showing up and, their
connection with this otherperson was creating a lot of,
dissonance.
And I just couldn't seem tosettle.
I'm going to have to let go ofthis connection.
So during that conversation, Iwas like, but I'll still be your
friend.
And, um, and then she ended upbreaking it off with that other
person.
And then we were like,supposedly just going to try to
(13:24):
be like, I don't know what wethought we were trying to be,
but basically we were backtogether and we were kind of
monogamous for this like briefwindow, but she was trying to
send to herself and I was tryingto cheerlead I just wanted her
so bad.
I just wanted her and.
Absolutely in love with her.
And then about a month goes byand then, she just couldn't, And
(13:47):
so it's interesting because thefirst conversation she had with
I like, could barely hear it.
I could barely hear that thiswas really a breakup and I heard
the words I'm not dumb, but thatwas on a Thursday.
And then by Saturday I was like,okay, so.
What are you saying again?
And so,
Val (14:08):
Well and again like you heard the words, but I think
what happens is when you havesuch a deep connection when like
futures have been planned,right.
When you hear something likeyour, the level of my life then
when, when there's like ascreech you know, the brakes are
put on It,
Kat (14:25):
And then it feels like, it feels like it cancels out
everything.
Right.
Cause like the way that we weretogether, it felt so profound.
And so.
How does that end?
Right.
Does that mean that everythingwas a lie?
You know, and I remember askingthat question, like, what does
that, what does that mean?
And their response back waslike, I don't know, except I
(14:45):
know I can't even ask thatquestion.
I can't analyze whether, youknow, any of that was real or
not real.
I just know that we loved eachother and.
That she needed to make thesechanges.
And the other thing that wastrue is that both of us were
doing this shape-shifting thingwhere we were just doing things
that weren't in alignment with.
Was in front of us and ourregular life to do, you know,
(15:07):
like they had some bigtransitions they were trying to
work through and they wereacknowledging to themselves that
because of their relationshipwith me, they were trying to
factor me into some things thatthey needed.
It, they needed to just bethemselves.
Like they needed some time toreally just be on their own.
But then they fucking fell inlove with someone two weeks
after breaking up with me.
So I think that was the otherthing that was really hard too.
(15:28):
I was like, I can understand youneed to send to yourself, but
then, what hurts so bad is thatit felt like, well, you just,
you picked this how could youhave space for that after what
we had together?
And cause that's the other thingwe do we project our own
experiences on to other people,and as I was trying to like,
(15:50):
make sense of all this stuff, Iwas like, well, I guess we
weren't soulmates, like maybewe're twin flames, I'm enough of
a blue bitch that I'm likelooking for something to try to
like.
Figure out the story here, likeit created such dissonance,
right.
To have this high, high, butthen this low, low
Val (16:10):
because we want to make sense out of what happened, And
some of it I think is actually,it's for survival.
Like I think that we need tounderstand it so that we can
make sense so that we know howto move forward.
Right?
Like, wait a minute.
Cause we all have.
Mindsets about the world Right.
And how things should work.
And, well, This is this.
(16:31):
And that is that.
And then when information getsintroduced.
Like, wait a
Kat (16:34):
minute, it doesn't fit.
Val (16:35):
doesn't fit.
So Then we get thrown off.
Kat (16:37):
Oh, I was thrown off
Val (16:41):
we get thrown off and then we're like, wait.
is it So has everything changed?
Like, And nobody told me like,what was this?
So that next time I go to try tobe in love.
I know.
In my work with people who aredating, trying to figure out the
why so difficult.
Kat (16:57):
Well, what you're saying makes a lot of sense because I
think it didn't fit in myparadigm.
I was like this person.
Is my person.
And one time we're having thisreally like tender, intimate
conversation and we're lookingdeeply into each other's eyes
and, and with like awe and hervoice, she goes, you isn't Such
(17:17):
clear conviction on my side, Ilooked her in the eye and I was
like, yeah.
And that moment felttranscendent.
You know, it felt fuckingmystical.
It felt like nothing I'd everexperienced with another human
being.
So I don't know how I can havethat.
And then for like weeks later,You to be in love with somebody
(17:39):
else.
And, for us not to be in aromantic relationship, I do not
know how to integrate theinformation.
I don't know how to do that.
And so man, one of the mosthelpful things as I was like
experiencing all this grief andlike, it really took me a while,
to like, believe that we'dbroken up until my brain wanted
(18:00):
to like solve the puzzle.
Right.
I wanted to believe that theywere going to.
Focused on themselves and likedo some more of their like inner
healing work and then they wouldcome find me.
That's just, I was like, that isthe story that actually makes
any sense at all.
Nothing else makes sense, exceptfor you need to go do some of
your stuff and I'm supportive ofthat.
(18:21):
And I'm just going to like, youknow, do my own thing for a
little bit and then you'll comefind me.
But what's interesting is likenothing in our relationship
actually.
Informed the idea that she wouldever do that.
She actually is kind of riskadverse and conflict averse.
And I don't know that she wouldever do that.
And I could be wrong, and so,you know, I.
(18:44):
When I, when I realized thatlike, oh my God, this is really
over this story is that's whatthe So it was like a long time
of just trying to orient myselfand it'd be like, how did this
even fucking happen?
And then the pain.
Oh, my God, I can't trustmyself.
(19:05):
Cause that was what I was soemboldened in.
You know, it was like I had, youknow, lived within this really
rigid paradigm.
And so I didn't get to do any ofthis exploration.
And then I have, you know, manypeople who come out late in
life.
It's like a second adolescence.
It really, really is.
And so you're experiencing forthe very first time and yes, I'm
a fucking grownup and I'm wiseand I'm embodied and all these
(19:25):
great things, but, I did notknow that I.
That some people could match meto a certain point, but then not
be able to hold the intensity ofwhat this experience was The
amount of vulnerability that itrequires to be in love with me
(19:46):
is, is high.
It really is you know, I used tokind of make the joke about how
I wanted to crawl into theirbone marrow and that's, it's not
an exaggeration.
It's, something I'm capable of,right?
Yeah.
Maybe every human being outthere in the world, isn't
capable of the kind of intimacythat I am.
I'm just capable of it.
And so I wanted, and so I wantsomeone to be able to meet me in
(20:09):
that place.
Maybe ultimately after this, Idecided that maybe that's not
the way to go.
That's not the expectation Ihave on people.
So, but I did I did ask her torise from.
And I know that she tried, um,and she was above and beyond and
a lot of ways too.
And she fucking blew my mind athow incredible but I don't think
(20:32):
she could hold it.
And then later in one of ourlike post post breakup
conversations, was trying toshare with me, she was like,
Catherine, you're not lookinghonestly, at these red flags,
she's saying things like Iactually am deeply insecure and
I, I do have all thisinternalized fat phobia still,
and I do have all of thesethings and she was sort of
listing all these things that Iwas like, I have to take her at
(20:54):
her word instead of projectingmy idealism onto someone else.
and she's healing and doing herwork and doing all these things,
but also, has to go at the pacethat fucking makes sense to her
that she can fucking bear.
It was interesting to look forthe things of where I don't want
to say that I demanded too much,but I'm just wanting to own
that.
(21:14):
I'm a lot, not in a way that I'mapologizing for saying is wrong
or bad, but.
Not everyone's going to be upfor that.
And I think she really havewanted to be, and then
ultimately it was like, whetherit's timing or whether it's wet
or you know, that's a wholeother thing.
Um, she had to so then there wasthis other person in her world
(21:41):
that like just And she knows howbe.
She knows how to be in thatversus
Val (22:02):
Why don't we break for Story Thank you so much for
sharing with this cat going tocome back how do you, where do
you go?
Where does a broken heart go forYeah.
(22:23):
All right.
Thanks for listening to ourcommercials Are you looking for
love?
But you're ready to give up ondating it's.
So hopper
Kat (22:33):
I It's okay.
I'm okay.
Val (22:37):
Were you worried about our listeners?
Kat (22:40):
Yeah.
I'm like, you're like, let'sthrow your commercial while
you're crying in a puddle.
Val (22:45):
Yes.
Yes.
Please listen to ourcommercials.
Oh, that might not sound good.
Kat (22:52):
Yeah, because the commercial is like, are you
looking for love?
Val (22:57):
Okay folks, you're just witnessing.
That was not a good, all right.
Maybe we're going to throw it acommercials now.
Kat (23:03):
No, no, no, it's
Val (23:04):
okay.
I'm okay.
Kat (23:08):
That's so funny
Val (23:09):
of our little nephews fell down and was like, I'm going to
take guys.
I don't think I'm going to sayso if you could, I always say
that I'm Otay.
I'm Otay.
Kat (23:17):
that's me.
That's what I'm saying rightnow.
Val (23:19):
You're Otay.
Ooh.
Kat (23:20):
I am a messy bitch.
And we're going to talk aboutlike, I'm still healing, it's
still relatively fresh.
So I wanted to acknowledge thatwhat I found the most helpful
was that In particular, you andanother close friend who is also
therapist was telling me storieswhere like, you're like, yeah, I
know what it feels like.
to have that like intenseconnection and, I didn't finish
(23:43):
my thought, but I was likelooking up twin flames, but then
also.
Googling like Trauma bonds.
And I was like, I think this istwo ways of saying the same
thing, you know, I'm enough of awoo bitch.
That I wanted to be something.
The goal connection.
Right.
But also
Val (23:57):
it a twin flame or is it drama?
Kat (23:59):
know, like we used to say to each other, like, You feel
like home?
You're so familiar.
in that I was reading abouttrauma bonds Or like, if someone
says you feel like,
Val (24:08):
oh man, And maybe you think that you bonded over having some
similar trauma?
Kat (24:14):
We just have had similar trauma and we, You know, again,
in one of the earlier episodes,we sort of make a joke about.
me Being like what?
You don't want to talk abouttrauma all the time.
because I'm like, We're healingit, we're healing all the trauma
and they're like, ah, this is alot.
Val (24:31):
It seems like you're having a real great time over here and
that ouch.
For people who maybe had neverheard of a twin flame, can you
Kat (24:38):
no just Google it?
Jesus crisis and fairs.
Val (24:42):
I'm like, don't be mean to our listeners.
Oh, okay.
Nope.
You brought it up, you ran rightto it.
Bitch.
You got to explain it.
Kat (24:51):
Okay.
So, um, my limited research intotwin flames is ID.
like your soul is split in halfand you have this other half out
there in the world.
I know.
But then It's like the kind ofconnection that's, kind of can
be kind of tumultuous andsometimes you guys can work
through it and sometimes not.
And it's supposed to provokesome big growth in your life.
Val (25:14):
So maybe it doesn't mean that you have to be with this
person forever, but maybe theyprovoked growth in you.
Kat (25:20):
I think they're trying that connection.
Right.
And what's interesting when youread about like Trump.
it really sounds similar.
Like seriously people, you couldGoogle both of these things and
they read various similarly the,what is it about human beings?
where you can have some sharedtrauma and then you feel like,
oh my God, you're Yeah.
So my Googling of twin flamesand trauma, bonding was like in
(25:41):
the height of me, like justlooking to find a story that
makes sense.
So I know that trauma bonding isactually like a larger fuller
thing.
And so I I just was picking andchoosing little cherry picking
because I was trying to findsomething to make sense of it.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
So I got it through my head thatlike we're broken up, it wasn't
(26:01):
event I had to reorganize mywhole self from afterwards.
Right.
And then there's the loss.
And then the grief, and thenthere's.
this Sensation of like, oh myGod, what does this mean about
my ability to trust myself?
Right.
And so all these things are inthe mix.
I'm trying really
Val (26:19):
to make sense
Kat (26:19):
Yeah I want it to make sense.
And sometimes things really justdon't make sense and That was
the conclusion I didn't want tohave to come to because it's
interesting.
I talk a big game about nothaving like big control and
outcome and stuff like that.
Right.
being, not attached to outcomebut as the truth is like the
idea that this doesn't havemean.
Or that just bad things happenor like, things just don't work
(26:40):
out the way we want.
Sometimes I was like, now Idon't like that.
This story does not resonatewith me.
Val (26:48):
isn't a good story.
Let's throw this book away.
Kat (26:53):
yeah.
And so I'm like, I live with alot of gratitude.
That's just a normal part of mylife.
And so.
Is there something I can begrateful for?
Nothing felt like I could holdonto it And again?
That's the thing like, you know,last week we talked about grief,
grief is a mother fucker.
right?
And then sometimes we have ourpersonal grief in the context of
a larger grief, the culture, andthere's all these different
(27:14):
things.
And so is it.
Hard time to be experiencing abreakup also is mercury
retrograde motherfuckers.
Val (27:26):
yes.
Can I say a few things that, Ithink I've, I've observed about
relationships.
So this, part, the second halfof this podcast episode is like,
how do you get up?
Where do broken hearts go?
This is my alternate title.
Where do broken hearts
Kat (27:39):
do they go?
Val (27:42):
Well, they find their way home.
Kat (27:44):
Home is yourself.
You are home.
Yeah.
Turns out
Val (27:49):
Here's the thing.
If I can get something throughto the people who are dating,
this could be a savvy to yourbroken heart, is that we want to
know the answer, why we want adiagnostic of what happened.
What's the real reason this isnot working.
I don't think that we reallyever get the real.
(28:09):
To be honest
Kat (28:10):
because you can't, you can't, the other person, has
their own story
Val (28:13):
the other person sometimes doesn't even know.
So if you want to say, tell mewhy they, might not really be
able to get to the why orexplain it because feelings,
attraction is all incrediblycomplicated, right?
There's also some things thatare hard to say and explain
like, I just wasn't feeling itanymore.
(28:34):
Or like, I don't think this isit.
those things are
Kat (28:38):
Oh and it hurts my feelings
Val (28:40):
and I'm not talking about you specifically.
Kat (28:43):
No, she said that shit to me.
Yeah.
Val (28:47):
Oh, she said that to
Kat (28:48):
Yeah.
She said that she wasn't nolonger feeling the things that
she felt that she should And shewas also explaining it in the
context of being reallyoverwhelmed.
And so she was like, I don'tknow why I'm but like, these are
all the things.
you know,
Val (29:03):
So I get messages helped me.
I'm fixating, I'm waking up.
So then I tell them to askthemselves, what are you really
wanting?
Is it that you want, answers sothat you can trust yourself next
time?
Is it cause you need closure?
Is it because you have a beliefabout yourself are you
suspicious about the answer?
(29:24):
So, so a lot of times it's, I'llget soothed by knowing a real
answer.
Okay.
I don't know that the answer isreally going to Sue you.
So another way to Sue.
Something that you said, Iasked, why does it feel so
important this love was right?
Because if it wasn't and how canmyself And you're the one who
(29:48):
coined the phrase.
Like, I didn't think that shecould hold what we
Kat (29:52):
actually that wasn't me.
that was my other good friendWho's also, a
Val (29:55):
oh, shout out to the other good registered
Kat (29:58):
know I have the best fucking friends I'm the luckiest
Val (30:03):
but that made so much sense I think what drives people to
stay up late at night is that itfelt real in the moment.
And there's the dissonanceagain, there's the dissonance
that causes pain.
It felt real.
They said it was real, but nowthey're saying either it wasn't,
or it's not going to last.
And so how can I trust myself?
(30:23):
And when your friend said, I, Ijust don't think they could hold
it.
That just felt like such a greattool to share with people,
because then it's like the,both.
True at once.
Right?
It was real.
It was just for whatever reason,it either it didn't stick
because they just didn't likeyou,
Kat (30:42):
impossible.
Val (30:43):
I know that seems impossible, but I also want to
be truthful.
Right.
Cause we can, we can handle thetruth
Kat (30:49):
sometimes,
Val (30:49):
right.
Or their trauma or theirattachment style or whatever
they've got going on in theirlife.
They were there with you in thatmoment.
And they're like, yes, I wantthat.
And they couldn't hold it forwhatever reason, oh, so helpful.
That's golden.
Kat (31:03):
Yeah.
I mean, it's still fucking overand you're like, that's not what
I wanted to happen
Val (31:08):
Right.
And I think that's where we canuse the radical acceptance.
I think we talked about
Kat (31:11):
that last time
Val (31:12):
But can I also say, so when you were talking
Kat (31:14):
yeah
Val (31:15):
about when the relationship was getting this kind of on
again, off
Kat (31:18):
right The attachment style stuff was getting wrong,
Val (31:21):
it was yes.
And I think it's the love stinksepisode that we talk a lot about
attachment.
If you want to go back to thatone, you were talking and
secretly I was like, oh shit,this sounds like an experience I
had in college in Bible collegethat we both went to with a
person that, you know,
Kat (31:39):
I know, I know this
Val (31:41):
I will call actually, I thought about calling him Romeo.
Cause we don't want to usepeople's real names that, that
were.
Kat (31:46):
Romeo is a really appropriate,
Val (31:49):
I was a little baby, right?
Probably very naive inrelationship, um, understanding
Kat (31:55):
Yeah.
Val (31:55):
actually funny story His cousin was in our dorm and I saw
a picture and I was like, Ooh,who's that?
And I pointed the Romeo and Isaid, oh, that's my cousin.
I said, oh, tell him to comehere.
He's cute.
Next semester.
Kat (32:09):
Right.
I know.
I remember.
You like, made out
Val (32:15):
Oh my That
Kat (32:18):
was such a big deal.
in this fucking conservative,goddamn
Val (32:22):
Oh, I can spell a little TIVA.
I will.
I will.
Um, yes we did.
We'll, we dated for a while,okay.
You were telling your story.
Oh, shit.
This sounds like my stupid sagawith Romeo, but I didn't want to
offend you because we were alittle babies and I didn't have
this deep, connection that, youall had.
(32:45):
But I was like, oh no, this,sounds
Kat (32:48):
Oh I used to say that like, when some of this First started
happening.
I was like, it feels like theyare like a fuck boy with a
savior complex.
Val (32:55):
So it was the same thing that like, we'd get close.
I'm like, wow.
people.
Oh, they're like destined to betogether.
Aren't
Kat (33:02):
they?
Val (33:03):
we kept being together.
I think we were only datingactually for a little while and
then it was on again off again.
Yeah, we would, we would makeout.
And that was a big deal ofavocados and purity culture.
You could get kicked out ofschool for anything more than
that.
And then it'll be on.
And then he broke up with me anddated this other girl that was
both of our friends anyway, evenI moved to the bay area, he's
(33:24):
from the bay area.
Right.
So I see him and, we do kissagain a couple of
Kat (33:29):
times.
I wish you guys could see yourface right now.
Her face is like scrunched upand went, wait.
Oh my kids again, sometimes
Val (33:37):
Oh, So
Kat (33:38):
hate you already called her So much It's such a big deal
Val (33:41):
Like, and it's just the flirting.
We all leave and work together.
How could I forget that?
We worked together.
coworkers saw the, sorry.
Twin flame.
Crackling.
no fucking to blame.
Like they saw the, attraction,like chemistry.
This is where I was like, oh,I'm going to tell cat about
that.
He's like, yeah, I don't thinkwe ever have a future.
(34:02):
I want a date I'm in love withyour best friend.
Best friend joined at the hipall through college roommates,
even in San Francisco.
I'm in love with her.
Biggest gift I could have gottenbecause it was the one thing.
Kat (34:16):
Wait finish the thought though.
It was the one thing that you'relike, no, I'm done game over
Val (34:20):
Game over if you like my best friend.
No.
And so that happened to
Kat (34:26):
Two weeks after she broke up with me, she said, she's in
love with this other woman andhe used the word in love.
And in the moment it's did notwant her to know how fucking
that was to, read Actually wewere texting And then later I
did call my other friend, who'sthe therapist and fucking
screamed and raged.
Cause I was like very galled bythat, honestly, But it was the
(34:49):
thing that got me off the road.
It was the thing that I was likesometimes
Val (34:53):
I think, fuck boys know that like, if I just can cut the
cord, what's the one thing theycould never come back from.
And so.
it's this pattern.
and I'm like, I'm sorry if thisoffends you to be compared to a
situation with this Robio butyou said that.
I was in good company.
Like you felt stupid.
I felt so stupid.
I'm supposed to be the smartgirl.
(35:13):
I'm supposed to have like a goodhead on my shoulders.
And I went straight for the fuckboy.
And like, went through all thisbullshit.
And had the blind spots.
Right.
So it was like the cycle we haveto listen to people we also
can't be like, oh, that's theirtrauma.
And it can fix,
Kat (35:31):
I wanted to fix them so bad I wanted us to heal together.
I thought that.
So too idealistic about it all.
Val (35:36):
I know.
Kat (35:37):
Some of their behavior does look like, fuck boy, with a
savior complex.
Like, I was really proud ofmyself recording that phrase.
but I also want to say, that'snot them in their entirety,
right?
They're not a one dimensional.
villain.
Val (35:49):
no Of
Kat (35:50):
yeah.
Both Of these people are notvillain.
Yours is a little bit like anasshole.
No, I'm kidding.
I'm joking.
But like, I just wanted to likethrow that back in there because
like, I'm not trying to likeburn the shit up and I'm not
trying.
to like Really like getvengeance or like get back at
her.
So I'm just trying to tell thetruth of like Jesus Christ.
This was really hard and I'm notthe only ones experience you've
(36:13):
experienced it.
my other friend's experience.
We're out here having thesefucking experiences where you're
like, I do not know how toreorganize my.
This is fucking devastating.
How do I come back from this?
How do I trust myself again?
Right?
Why is this so fucking hard?
Val (36:27):
And I think, you've said, okay.
I think there were some redflags, like, this is what I
would tell clients.
Right?
Like I think there were some redflags and actually cat.
I don't think I'd be the besttherapist for you sometimes.
Although you say you do listenback to the podcast, And use
some of the things I say, I tellpeople, look there's no behavior
that's right or wrong.
It's just how helpful is it?
So I said, look, you could goahead and go into the future
(36:50):
after one day and decide yourchildren's names and where
you're going to live.
The only thing you need to knowis that the further into the
future, you go.
The harder the fall is to comeback to, present day.
That's all you have to be awareof.
And for you you're ready for thefall because you're like I have
Kat (37:09):
my God, I'm a cocky motherfucker sometimes.
So seriously.
I
Val (37:13):
I'm glad you finally, I'm glad you finally admitted that
on this podcast because
Kat (37:17):
I own that shit, motherfucker.
Val (37:19):
I give you, cause I have reactions to some of the things
you say, I sound like, fuck, youknow, gathered that's bullshit,
but then I feel bad cause I'mtrying to be a more open person
and like whatever.
like whatever, maybe the way Ithink about it.
Isn't right.
But yes, I love it.
I love all of
Kat (37:34):
no, it.
is it's okay.
Some of it is Like, my hyperfixation or whatever.
Yeah.
I know what it feels like to enda long-term marriage, you know,
like I have survived heartbreak,right.
And so I was like willing to runhard at this, thing that was
making me feel so good.
And I was like, yeah, if itdoesn't work out, I'm going to
be okay.
Is it, So then that's not, nottrue.
(37:56):
It just hurt.
like damn is dating cries sofucking much
Val (38:04):
So look also with dating.
This is what I like to tell you.
Kat (38:06):
yeah, Look,
Val (38:08):
daily dating is a motherfucking Rola causer.
Kat (38:13):
is.
a roller
Val (38:15):
And do you know why
Kat (38:16):
Tell
Val (38:16):
Because these are strangers fucker.
These are strangers.
You don't know them when you seea dog in.
Public that you do not know youask, can I touch it?
Because you don't know what thisdog is going to do.
Is it going to bite you?
Is it going to slobber all overyou?
Is it going to eat your lunch?
(38:37):
You, this is a stranger.
These people are strangers.
You
Kat (38:43):
is anyone going to date?
Val (38:45):
meet exactly.
This is why it's so torturing.
You have actually decided to goon a rollercoaster that you have
never seen the preview video.
You don't know when the nextloop is coming.
That is why it's sounpredictable.
I say, if you dated Ken or, Jenfrom the office, And you're
(39:06):
like, oh, okay.
I can kind of see he's like,he's funny, he's quiet.
if you're going to start datingsomebody that you already know,
it's not going to be as wild ofa ride because you're like,
okay, I kind of have a little
Kat (39:17):
That makes perfect
Val (39:18):
so they're strangers.
Kat (39:19):
Yeah I got it.
Val (39:20):
Where okay.
I'm trying to,
Kat (39:22):
I know
Val (39:23):
I'm trying to transition out of my thought to another
Kat (39:26):
sorry.
Well, okay.
I
Val (39:30):
Oh, you're sad.
Okay.
Okay.
What else?
Well, what do you want to talkabout next then?
Sad,
Kat (39:35):
Yeah well, because it just saves me overwhelmed.
Like I do want to be in loveagain.
And so.
like, you know, I don't know,Val,
Val (39:46):
Oh I'm
Kat (39:47):
is it worth it
Val (39:48):
I'm not being very,
Kat (39:49):
like a love doulos like, everybody's a stranger.
Val (39:55):
No, I'm not saying that.
I'm saying I want to get youready for the right.
Like, look, I'm the person thatI want to walk around the
rollercoaster and see, okay.
How many flips is there?
Because I could, I can.
Kat (40:05):
totally,
Val (40:06):
That's the only my personality.
Kat (40:07):
Yeah No, but that's what your career too.
And you're really good.
at it.
So I should have taken your,like, prepare yourself for love.
Of course, this whole thingcould've been avoided.
I wouldn't have been crying forweeks on end.
Oh, wait, I don't think thisthing could have been avoided.
There was no way.
I wasn't going to do all
Val (40:26):
No, no.
And
Kat (40:27):
there was no way.
someone is shiny as I'm showedup.
I wasn't going
Val (40:31):
that's why remember when you were like, should I break up
with them?
I was like, I know, I know.
You're not, I know you're notbecause we all you have to go
for it.
I think that's amazing.
I do.
Kat (40:42):
Like for me, I feel like the biggest one is the
reorganization.
And I like what you said too,like the further you project out
into the future, the harder thefall, is and I know what was so
interesting about thisconnection is that neither one
of us was trying to do that.
We just, tap and We kind of bothran into each other really hard.
Val (40:58):
so how are you reorganizing after?
Kat (41:01):
Well, I think it's still early enough that I'm working on
it and you know, after a fewweeks I was like, I recognized
that I was fixating.
And so I'm like, well, I need tointroduce some new strangers.
Val (41:13):
Yes.
Kat (41:14):
and great
Val (41:15):
strategy for anxious attached, especially
Kat (41:17):
sure Yeah
Val (41:17):
get some more people in your
Kat (41:18):
Yeah.
And also it's the thing of.
like, a new connection remindsyou that this last person was
not the only person that's goingto be into you.
Right but also it's painfulbecause it's new, right?
These connections are, there isno ability in me to run out
someone, right?
Like Sometime I will have thatability again.
(41:39):
One person was the short-livedinteraction.
That met a need for me for ashort window.
And then I cut them loose prettyquickly, like after about a
week, because I just I couldn'tI didn't have capacity.
So I was like, thank you.
And I was really upfronteveryone knows.
I'm like dealing with aheartbreak.
So, I'm good at owning my shit,
Val (41:54):
you said you wanted to make sure you said this in the
podcast about how like flirting,with new people can be great,
but, there is something aboutbeing known and that different
energy about like strangers takea lot of
Kat (42:07):
they really do Yeah.
So it's interesting.
Getting other people in my lifethat I could, engage with in
this particular way, like wherethere's some flirtatious and
sexual energy exchange but I'meven aware of the fact that
like, can't hold anyone.
Else's hard life stuff.
Like.
at all.
All of this other persons, thisperson I was in love with I just
(42:28):
gobbled up her truck and I washolding so much space for it.
So now I'm really aware thatlike I have almost no capacity
to even be.
like, oh, that sounds hard.
I'm really sorry to hear that.
It's really, I keep, I keephearing myself go say like good
luck with that.
I'm not trying to be an asshole.
Val (42:48):
No, you, you, I know that you've been good about your
boundaries.
Like, Hey, I don't have thatcapacity for that.
Kat (42:53):
And then when I feel the need to, like, the grief just
keeps showing up, I just, I cry,the shifting has slowly been
happening.
And then for me, I decided to,well, I don't think I told this
part of the story, but after,she said that she was in love
with this other that again whenwe were together, it was
creating dissonance.
This particular and so, Idecided that was no way for me
(43:17):
to still be in their life ifthey were I knew that the other
person was, really jealous ofme.
And I just thought, I feel soshitty to me, it feels so bad in
my body to like, try to maintainany kind of connection with this
person.
When you know, I just know thatit's going to make them feel
gross And if you love thisperson, then I can't.
(43:38):
I just can't.
So I cut off communication,which.
again, Devastating honest to Goddevastating, but then it was
like the pressure was buildingand building and building until
like literally this one.
I was a little high and I, thatfelt like just kind of like a
good excuse to be like, textthem.
to be like, Oh, it's because I'mhigh, but really Jesus Christ
(43:58):
almost every day, I'd be like,I'm going to call them.
And so I did end up texting andthen their response was really
like, kind of Curt.
and, it popped the bubble for meand I was like,
Val (44:14):
See, in the past I don't think I would.
counsel someone to do that, butnow it's like, just taking a
different route of like, I don'tknow.
What do you think like, and, foryou, that was what you needed
was to kind of pop that bubbleor it was a way you decided to
go,
Kat (44:30):
I know but I think too, like our brains, when I do this
thing and my brain kept wantingto be well, cause I, am still in
love with this person.
It's just not over for me I knowthat the relationship is over
but my feeling.
are all the way resolved yet andthat's fine.
It's fine.
That, that's true.
So my brain was creating a storywhere they were
Val (44:50):
was
Kat (44:52):
to get like a little interaction and whether or not
it's true.
Like, I mean, they didn'tdisclose that they've been
thinking about me or notthinking about.
me, but The invitation to talkwas made available to them and
they passed.
It dispelled the part of me thatwanted to lean into the story we
both miss
Val (45:09):
terrible, um, that's thank you for sharing that.
That's pretty intimate and like,I think helpful.
No, it's, it's very intimate andhelpful.
I think for people listening.
Can I also say.
And wanted to make sure we siton this podcast you know, we've
referenced the attached book,which I really love.
And they spend a bit of time inthe beginning of the book
talking about like, this is allnormal, that everything in our
(45:30):
body.
from an evolutionary standpoint,all the chemicals, the dopamine,
the oxytocin are actually tryingto get us to bond.
And so it is a ripping apart.
And I know that that's whatpeople feel and that, yes it's
okay.
And normal for you to knowlogically and to have this
breakup, but still have thosefeelings even be in love with
(45:52):
that person for a whileafterwards, it hurts.
Kat (45:55):
Yeah.
Val (45:55):
I wanted to say something else too, that I think you did a
very wise thing.
And I wonder if that's why it'smore painful now, right?
Kind of the ripping off thebandaid instead of tearing it
little bit by bit, is that a lotof people get stuck right.
At the end of this relationshipyou're talking about, there
started to become the cycle ofcan we say together, can we not
(46:16):
this kind of a thing?
And a lot of people get stuck inthat side.
And it was hard for you evenwith a very strong practice of
self-centering to say, I have tocenter myself, this is not good
for me.
Kat (46:28):
Well, yeah, cause my body's really communicative.
So I mean, it really is like Ijust felt terrible.
I had to get So
Val (46:38):
But I see people getting stuck in that and, everyone's
talking about I don't want towaste time.
I want to find someone, but Ithink instead of seeing it that
way, cause we can't control whensomeone comes into our life that
we mesh You can control how muchtime you spend.
And again, we've talked about,Hey, sometimes you do put your
head in the sand and, you'relike, this isn't the best thing,
(46:58):
but you're not ready to give itup yet.
But I think if we pay moreattention of when we're in
pseudo relationships, which ismaybe a term that we use to
describe anything that isn't anintimate.
Relationship
Kat (47:12):
you mean like committed.
romantic
Val (47:13):
committed.
And only if that's what youwant.
Right.
It's only a pseudo relationship.
If what you really want is, acommitted.
Relationship.
And then you're, kind ofsettling for something that is
pseudo what you want.
And so there's lots of reasonswhy we stay in that and why that
is maybe sometimes even safer
Kat (47:34):
Oh yeah.
Well, totally.
That makes a lot of sensebecause if you, it is safer
because you get to doself-preservation you don't risk
as much in Isn't thatinteresting, but then there's
The dissonance Cause you'relike, that's only partially.
what I want.
Yeah.
Well, my other therapist friendsaid.
I was looking for takeaways orthings I could keep.
(47:56):
And I think some of that willcome.
It's still kind of earliest.
So there's still, lots of thegrief is still a bit unwieldy,
honestly.
but one thing they said, what ifone of the It is just trust is
earned.
Cause I, I really am verytrusting and the reason why I'm
so trusting, is cause I'm sotrustworthy.
I don't have the ability to be Idon't know if that sounds like
(48:19):
I'm blowing smoke up my own assor something, but it creates
dissonance in me too not tell mywhole truth all the time.
And I think maybe that's noteveryone's cup of tea, but I
just, I love communicating.
I love The, process of learningand understanding myself and
learning and understandingsomeone else if there is
something in my whole life I'vehyper-focused on, it's that
(48:41):
right?
And so that's the energy I bringwhen I'm connecting with There's
this new connection that we'veonly talked on the phone and
message and we she was asking medo you think you'll be nervous
we'll meet in real life.
And I was like, you know, I getkind of the normal, nervous,
excited feelings.
But If you like me right now,you'll just like me more.
in I just, this is really who Iam.
(49:03):
It doesn't occur to me thatanybody else is doing You know
what I mean?
And So like, I'm trusting,everything that someone is
saying to me.
So if someone says, you're thelove of my life.
I think that means they want meAnd So it didn't occur to me
that that could be a changeablething, So I was driving an Adele
(49:28):
send my love to your new lover,and I was just listening to the
and, um, I wrote down some ofthe she sings, I forgiven it.
you set me I got to let go ofall of our And so the bubble
that I had with this person, Icherish it.
(49:49):
It felt like we were the bestversions of ourselves, with each
other.
It felt so good to feel as shemade me feel and how I got to be
such a full and complex likeversion of I didn't want to let
that go.
I wanted this story to godifferent, but you know, and
(50:11):
radical acceptance, right?
Like she, let me go.
And so I'm gonna do the same.
And it was just interesting thatlike I hadn't thought about the
word forgiveness that that'skind of a churchy word in my
but, you know, as I heal, it waskind of interesting to wake up
okay.
So send my love to your newlover.
I heard on the radio and thenthe next morning I woke up
(50:33):
almost like in a dream state,and I was sort of dreaming that
song and I was dreaming, youknow, like sending this other.
woman, send my love to thisother woman and my conscious
mind interrupted that like kindof generous thought, right.
And was like, no, she called youthe love of her life.
And then I immediately was theawareness of like, oh, I'm just
(50:55):
going to have to forgivewhatever that meant to her and
what it meant when I heard it,maybe they were the same at the
time, but it was.
obviously not something shecould hold or follow And so then
we just have to forgive peoplefor being human.
Right.
And so, so that's the space I'min yeah, sent me free and, try
(51:20):
I'm not all the way there, butthen, you know,
Val (51:26):
thank you so much for sharing.
This has been a gift you'vegiven.
Kat (51:29):
Has this been helpful to any of You guys, on a now?
Is this just like trauma porn?
Like, let me just pour my heartout Okay.
But please.
Seriously.
If this was actually helpful, Ijust need you.
I am.
begging you.
need like immediate feedback.
of like, thank you, Kat.
This is very helpful.
Val (51:50):
We said it already in this episode, there's power when
someone else shares or you'relike, yeah, me too,
Kat (51:55):
Yeah.
I hope I made it really clear.
Like the reason why I wanted todo this episode was because you
sharing and then this otherperson sharing of really similar
kind of.
dynamics And it not going theway you wanted.
It felt like a life raft.
Val (52:08):
And that
Kat (52:08):
It really did instead of getting completely towed under
I'm like, oh, I'm not alone.
And you're fine.
Look at you.
So happily married with thegyrating hips.
That's a success story.
Val (52:25):
and I think we've shared this.
We're not trying to save anyoneor tell anyone how to live
instead in the new version ofourselves in our new, jobs,
we're just sharing and puttingout into the world Of course we
would want our stories to Oh, Iwas going to say help people.
Kat (52:45):
Oh, yeah.
I've got some more healing.
Oh
Val (52:53):
My dear friend.
I love you so
Kat (52:55):
Thanks for being on this ride with us
Val (52:57):
Uh, until next time I love you.
Kat (53:01):
Bye.
Val (53:02):
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But you're ready to give up ondating it's.
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Val (53:20):
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You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
(00:34):
Kat.
we're here.
It's pod cast.
Kat (00:38):
Hi
Val (00:40):
Hi,
Kat (00:44):
listeners.
We hope that you aresufficiently tantalized.
Val (00:48):
Oh oh, That sounds like a very, formal lover.
I hope you're sufficientlytantalizing.
Kat (00:57):
Well, okay.
So seriously, it was, it wasweeks ago now that I was like, I
got the idea to like Taylorswift about this.
And, um, I thought it was thefunniest fucking thing ever to
be like, I have a fuckingpodcast.
So like coping with a breakupI'm going to tear a swift on you
motherfuckers.
Yeah.
Watch yourself people.
(01:18):
So in
Val (01:18):
tell my story,
Kat (01:19):
yeah.
You know, like the stages ofgrief, I think it was like an
anger stage.
Val (01:23):
And now you're like, oh, listeners.
I love to be on the sidelineswith my popcorn.
Watching cat does run headlonginto things that are going to
hurt later.
Kat (01:34):
oh my God.
Val (01:35):
Ah,
Kat (01:38):
Thank you for that.
Val (01:39):
cause I know you have to do, them.
right.
Even he, the other day.
I don't know if you want to tellthis story Even the day, You're
like, I did a thing and I waslike, what'd you do Kat?
And then you're like, I want tocall somebody.
I'm like, I know she's justgoing to do it.
You're not even asking myopinion, your.
Kat (01:57):
I also some of this is my personality.
I can't fucking help it
Val (02:01):
I actually really do feel like it's an ADHD thing.
We haven't brought a bait HD ina while.
Oh, I see it.
Humans who have ADHD.
When they have a thing in theirmind And I've talked about this
with my husband.
There's no compromising, there'sno compromising.
It's like, this is how you doit.
And I've seen that in YouTube.
Dear friend.
Kat (02:18):
Oh, I don't deny that
Val (02:19):
You're not changing my mind on the title.
Val,
Kat (02:23):
You know, that's really funny.
Cause I don't think of myself asbeing particularly rigid.
Like I'm pretty open-minded andkind of chill about a lot of
shit, but yeah, once in a whileI'll dig in and I'm like, Nope,
Val (02:31):
I just think It's clarity of idea.
and maybe a Tiny bit of thathyper-focus and just like, No,
this is it also.
I really respect it in manyways.
a great energy to.
I know that you just have to dothis.
Kat (02:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I have ADHD and I'm like atriple fireside.
That's a lie.
That's a lot of.
PECI Lewis energy that lives inme sometimes.
That's why I have to nap somuch.
It seems counterintuitive, butI'm telling
Val (03:03):
no cause you yeah, he's exhausting.
to be that hyped up.
Be that.
Kat (03:08):
Oh my God.
Val (03:09):
my gosh.
Kat (03:10):
So in case we're being a little too vague and maybe you
didn't listen to the lastepisode, this episode is about
breaking up like romanticbreakups.
And
Val (03:18):
breaking up
Kat (03:19):
just had this like profound experience of being like
intensely in love with someoneand then it not working out the
way I wanted it to and valuehave a lot of fucking great
wisdom about.
things you share with yourclients and things that you've
lived through about likebreaking up and romantic
partnerships.
And, and so we are going to doour best to like lay some shit
(03:42):
bare and then like, maybe giveyou some like, you know, helpful
things.
If you're going through abreakup or, you know
Val (03:51):
you know, someone who's going through a breakup
Kat (03:53):
Just tell them to listen to the podcast.
Val (03:55):
Yeah.
And I think Right?
Part of this podcast is us.
telling a story is telling aboutour lives.
and It's a human experience.
Right.
And that's kind of what we dois.
we bring The human to the humanexperience.
Kat (04:07):
experience Yeah.
So this human experience
Val (04:10):
Go ahead.
Kat, we're going to start withyou
Kat (04:12):
We'll start at the very beginning.
It was the week of Thanksgivingmotherfuckers.
Val (04:20):
It was
Kat (04:21):
Well, um, so just to share a little bit, I had been dating,
as many people as I could, Lastyear and exploring something
called non-monogamy or polyamoryand learning a lot about myself.
Because I wasn't really sure,like, am I the kind of person
that can be in love with morethan one person at once?
I don't know that about myself.
(04:41):
Am I someone that can like dateand like, go out and have a fun
time with this person and go outand have fun time with this
person.
that looks a little bit morelike just non-monogamy and I'm
like, yeah, I can do that.
That's, that's kind of fun forme.
But then I was flirting withsomeone and it escalated really
fast and I just couldn't fuckingbelieve how much I liked them.
And then the, kind of intensityof falling in love really.
(05:03):
And her falling in love with metoo.
And it feeling like I had met mysoulmate.
And, um
Val (05:10):
was on a little six week trip.
And you were like, Hey,
Kat (05:14):
Yeah.
If you guys listened to theearlier podcasts, you hear me
say it, I'm like fuckingdelighted.
I'm like I have to love isamazing.
And It feels really, really goodto be in love.
Val (05:25):
and it was amazing.
can we hold the both and
Kat (05:28):
Oh yeah Yeah.
there's no part of me.
That's trying to like burn shitdown, even though I am a triple
fire sign.
even again, like referencing thejoke I was making about Taylor
sifting.
I also have to go through allthe stages of grief, but the
truer thing is, is there's nopart of me that would
assassinate someone's characteror, oh, they're trash because
they're not
Val (05:45):
Right.
And if, and if we're not gettingthe cultural reference.
Anybody out there doesn't knowTaylor
Kat (05:49):
swift
Val (05:49):
uh she's.
well, she's, infamous for,talking about her
Kat (05:54):
not infamous famous.
I love this quality about her.
She's also a Sagittarius, soshe's a fire sign So she sings
about all of her past lovers.
Right.
And she'll
Val (06:05):
does a Dell, so, I mean, so
Kat (06:07):
know I'm going to reference an Adele song.
Val (06:09):
oh yeah.
Kat (06:10):
So that kind of is part of my healing journey.
And this is a
Val (06:13):
You got to know yourself to know if you can handle listening
to an Adele song.
Can you emotionally.
handle it?
Kat (06:20):
So this profound connection that I, I have, it happened
really fast.
I am the kind of person thatlikes to run at stuff, it's
these fire signs, it's the ADHD,it's it feels good.
And I lived so much of my life,really measured and like self
controlled because of purityculture and because of the
religious construct we were in.
I can tell there is this thingin me, that's like, fuck
(06:43):
everything.
I'm going to be a messy bitch.
I didn't get to do any of thatfucking shit.
Right.
And so now I'm like, oh, I'm solike a wise I'm like a deeply
wise, really embodied person.
So I think that I should be ableto do what the fuck I wanna do.
Val (06:59):
And if you run at things, like all that wisdom is going to
just be on autopilot.
Kat (07:03):
It turns out that.
Genuinely a wise person, likeit's really true, but also kind
of fucking naive.
Like I haven't actually been inthat many, like in love
relationships, right.
This person who like racked mywhole fucking world and it's
going to be hard for me not tocry.
I just do cry a lot.
(07:24):
So listeners, you can just liketrust that I'm okay.
Val is here with me.
Val is like the best human inthe whole fucking world.
Val (07:35):
well look, I want to normalize that, we are all
really stupid.
in love.
We're all really stupid.
And that was part of my story?
That like, shit, I did not makea God to suit to that first.
after a couple of years, I waslike, shit, what did I do?
I missed blind spots and we allhave that blind spot Every
healer has that blind spot.
(07:56):
that's part of the pressure Ifelt in, being a pastor was
like, I had to marriage had tolast And that's just not true
because I think that all thechemicals that get released at
the dopamine and the oxytocin,they're like a bright light.
shining.
And so all the red flags gethidden,
Kat (08:17):
So like bleached out.
That's funny.
You
Val (08:19):
their bleeds.
Tell You kids, see him
Kat (08:20):
That's a great visual.
Yeah.
and then also in the beginningof a love connection, especially
when the chemistry is so intensebut the experience that I just
had with this, like amazing.
Was unlike anything I'd everexperienced.
And I was like, this is sounique.
It must be, I found my foreverperson.
(08:42):
And it was interesting becauseit was at a time I wasn't
looking for a forever person.
I was looking to like, have morepeople to date and have new
experiences with and connect
Val (08:52):
I remember you were, do you want to hang out this weekend?
Oh, I got like three dates.
Yes, you were on that train
Kat (09:01):
yeah.
And so that was the other thing.
It felt really kind of mysticalbecause the connection was so
profound and so strong, eventhough we were long distance,
they live states away from me.
I paused all of my sexualconnections just because I was
like, whoa.
And again, I was in thatdiscovery phase of like, am I
someone that can be in love withmultiple people at the same
time?
And I still don't totally knowif I know the answer to that,
(09:22):
but this experience made me feellike, I don't think I can, but
also, obviously if you've beenlistening to the podcast, I'm
someone that has kind of bigenergy.
I take up a lot of space in theworld.
and so that was one thing that'sreally true of this woman I was
in love with is that, she's aforce.
And one of the things that wouldsort of amaze us that were like,
yeah, I've never met anyone thatcan match my energy, the way you
(09:44):
match my energy.
And it felt so.
Balanced.
And, where we had a lot ofcompatibility and then there
were some areas where I wasstrong and they were her weaker
areas and then areas where I wasweak and they were her, her like
excelling areas.
And I thought, holy shit, thisis so amazing, you know?
And then, she made me feel.
(10:05):
So good in ways that I've neverfelt before.
And, I'm just someone who is wooenough to be like magic happens
and you're like aligned.
And so the, the universe bringspeople into your life.
Val (10:20):
with love, you always got to double check the university's
work.
Okay.
You can quote me on that.
I just came up with that.
You always have to double checkthe university's work when it
Kat (10:30):
do that What does that even mean?
I love it
Val (10:32):
but yeah, I would tell all my clients this week, all the
booboo bitches that I haveworked with, I love you
Kat (10:38):
Oh my God.
Once the relationship startedgetting like more complex, Um,
we were, we were talking aboutattachment styles and so she has
a disorganized attachment style.
And so that was really showingup in our relationship.
Was that.
They would pull back in someways or they would get sort of
like overwhelmed and, wouldtrigger this like anxiety in me
(11:00):
I have to fix all this.
And, they were really faithfulat doing like a lot of internal
work.
And I was so in awe of how muchthey could kind of process and
synthesize.
And because they were in therapyand they were doing all their
trauma work, it just keptfeeling like this is going to be
fine.
This thing that I'm like, that'skind of a red flag.
I was like, that's okay.
We can heal all this shit.
We're going to heal each other.
(11:20):
It's going to be amazing we hadlike some really profound
experiences that felt likehealing, you know, to both of
us.
We had said a lot of things backand forth to each other.
It felt like we were going tohave a future together.
at one point she called me thelove of her and and then she
broke up with me.
Um, and we were trying to decideif we, could be friends and I
(11:45):
wasn't sure, I wasn't sure whatI was capable of because.
I was aware that I was justreally, really in love with her.
And I had a really hard timeletting go of these things that
we said back and forth to eachother.
That again, if you've listenedto last week's episode, we were
talking about like, how do youreorganize yourself?
I had jumped all the way in andI was so enthralled with this
(12:06):
human I don't know how to not bein love with you I don't know
that I could just be yourfriend.
So we're trying to figure thatout.
And we had a check-inconversation.
I actually, we were justtexting, but it was two weeks
after she had broken up with me.
She told me she was in love withsomebody else and I was, I was
really devastated.
full disclosure, it's not likeit was stranger.
(12:28):
It when we had met, we weretrying to explore we're long
distance.
We should still be able to, meandate other people.
This was someone that she hadhad been kind of on and off
again with
Val (12:38):
Because can I say,
Kat (12:39):
yeah
Val (12:39):
I think you both were sort of exploring polyamory.
Kat (12:41):
Yeah.
This was their first time, andactually their therapist was
like, would you consider tryingpolyamory because it helps you
not get so like obsessive aboutone person, that's the theory,
We got pretty obsessive abouteach other.
So Again, in one of the earlierepisodes, I referenced the fact
that I needed to center myselfbecause I was noticing that the
(13:01):
attachment style issues thatkept showing up and, their
connection with this otherperson was creating a lot of,
dissonance.
And I just couldn't seem tosettle.
I'm going to have to let go ofthis connection.
So during that conversation, Iwas like, but I'll still be your
friend.
And, um, and then she ended upbreaking it off with that other
person.
And then we were like,supposedly just going to try to
(13:24):
be like, I don't know what wethought we were trying to be,
but basically we were backtogether and we were kind of
monogamous for this like briefwindow, but she was trying to
send to herself and I was tryingto cheerlead I just wanted her
so bad.
I just wanted her and.
Absolutely in love with her.
And then about a month goes byand then, she just couldn't, And
(13:47):
so it's interesting because thefirst conversation she had with
I like, could barely hear it.
I could barely hear that thiswas really a breakup and I heard
the words I'm not dumb, but thatwas on a Thursday.
And then by Saturday I was like,okay, so.
What are you saying again?
And so,
Val (14:08):
Well and again like you heard the words, but I think
what happens is when you havesuch a deep connection when like
futures have been planned,right.
When you hear something likeyour, the level of my life then
when, when there's like ascreech you know, the brakes are
put on It,
Kat (14:25):
And then it feels like, it feels like it cancels out
everything.
Right.
Cause like the way that we weretogether, it felt so profound.
And so.
How does that end?
Right.
Does that mean that everythingwas a lie?
You know, and I remember askingthat question, like, what does
that, what does that mean?
And their response back waslike, I don't know, except I
(14:45):
know I can't even ask thatquestion.
I can't analyze whether, youknow, any of that was real or
not real.
I just know that we loved eachother and.
That she needed to make thesechanges.
And the other thing that wastrue is that both of us were
doing this shape-shifting thingwhere we were just doing things
that weren't in alignment with.
Was in front of us and ourregular life to do, you know,
(15:07):
like they had some bigtransitions they were trying to
work through and they wereacknowledging to themselves that
because of their relationshipwith me, they were trying to
factor me into some things thatthey needed.
It, they needed to just bethemselves.
Like they needed some time toreally just be on their own.
But then they fucking fell inlove with someone two weeks
after breaking up with me.
So I think that was the otherthing that was really hard too.
(15:28):
I was like, I can understand youneed to send to yourself, but
then, what hurts so bad is thatit felt like, well, you just,
you picked this how could youhave space for that after what
we had together?
And cause that's the other thingwe do we project our own
experiences on to other people,and as I was trying to like,
(15:50):
make sense of all this stuff, Iwas like, well, I guess we
weren't soulmates, like maybewe're twin flames, I'm enough of
a blue bitch that I'm likelooking for something to try to
like.
Figure out the story here, likeit created such dissonance,
right.
To have this high, high, butthen this low, low
Val (16:10):
because we want to make sense out of what happened, And
some of it I think is actually,it's for survival.
Like I think that we need tounderstand it so that we can
make sense so that we know howto move forward.
Right?
Like, wait a minute.
Cause we all have.
Mindsets about the world Right.
And how things should work.
And, well, This is this.
(16:31):
And that is that.
And then when information getsintroduced.
Like, wait a
Kat (16:34):
minute, it doesn't fit.
Val (16:35):
doesn't fit.
So Then we get thrown off.
Kat (16:37):
Oh, I was thrown off
Val (16:41):
we get thrown off and then we're like, wait.
is it So has everything changed?
Like, And nobody told me like,what was this?
So that next time I go to try tobe in love.
I know.
In my work with people who aredating, trying to figure out the
why so difficult.
Kat (16:57):
Well, what you're saying makes a lot of sense because I
think it didn't fit in myparadigm.
I was like this person.
Is my person.
And one time we're having thisreally like tender, intimate
conversation and we're lookingdeeply into each other's eyes
and, and with like awe and hervoice, she goes, you isn't Such
(17:17):
clear conviction on my side, Ilooked her in the eye and I was
like, yeah.
And that moment felttranscendent.
You know, it felt fuckingmystical.
It felt like nothing I'd everexperienced with another human
being.
So I don't know how I can havethat.
And then for like weeks later,You to be in love with somebody
(17:39):
else.
And, for us not to be in aromantic relationship, I do not
know how to integrate theinformation.
I don't know how to do that.
And so man, one of the mosthelpful things as I was like
experiencing all this grief andlike, it really took me a while,
to like, believe that we'dbroken up until my brain wanted
(18:00):
to like solve the puzzle.
Right.
I wanted to believe that theywere going to.
Focused on themselves and likedo some more of their like inner
healing work and then they wouldcome find me.
That's just, I was like, that isthe story that actually makes
any sense at all.
Nothing else makes sense, exceptfor you need to go do some of
your stuff and I'm supportive ofthat.
(18:21):
And I'm just going to like, youknow, do my own thing for a
little bit and then you'll comefind me.
But what's interesting is likenothing in our relationship
actually.
Informed the idea that she wouldever do that.
She actually is kind of riskadverse and conflict averse.
And I don't know that she wouldever do that.
And I could be wrong, and so,you know, I.
(18:44):
When I, when I realized thatlike, oh my God, this is really
over this story is that's whatthe So it was like a long time
of just trying to orient myselfand it'd be like, how did this
even fucking happen?
And then the pain.
Oh, my God, I can't trustmyself.
(19:05):
Cause that was what I was soemboldened in.
You know, it was like I had, youknow, lived within this really
rigid paradigm.
And so I didn't get to do any ofthis exploration.
And then I have, you know, manypeople who come out late in
life.
It's like a second adolescence.
It really, really is.
And so you're experiencing forthe very first time and yes, I'm
a fucking grownup and I'm wiseand I'm embodied and all these
(19:25):
great things, but, I did notknow that I.
That some people could match meto a certain point, but then not
be able to hold the intensity ofwhat this experience was The
amount of vulnerability that itrequires to be in love with me
(19:46):
is, is high.
It really is you know, I used tokind of make the joke about how
I wanted to crawl into theirbone marrow and that's, it's not
an exaggeration.
It's, something I'm capable of,right?
Yeah.
Maybe every human being outthere in the world, isn't
capable of the kind of intimacythat I am.
I'm just capable of it.
And so I wanted, and so I wantsomeone to be able to meet me in
(20:09):
that place.
Maybe ultimately after this, Idecided that maybe that's not
the way to go.
That's not the expectation Ihave on people.
So, but I did I did ask her torise from.
And I know that she tried, um,and she was above and beyond and
a lot of ways too.
And she fucking blew my mind athow incredible but I don't think
(20:32):
she could hold it.
And then later in one of ourlike post post breakup
conversations, was trying toshare with me, she was like,
Catherine, you're not lookinghonestly, at these red flags,
she's saying things like Iactually am deeply insecure and
I, I do have all thisinternalized fat phobia still,
and I do have all of thesethings and she was sort of
listing all these things that Iwas like, I have to take her at
(20:54):
her word instead of projectingmy idealism onto someone else.
and she's healing and doing herwork and doing all these things,
but also, has to go at the pacethat fucking makes sense to her
that she can fucking bear.
It was interesting to look forthe things of where I don't want
to say that I demanded too much,but I'm just wanting to own
that.
(21:14):
I'm a lot, not in a way that I'mapologizing for saying is wrong
or bad, but.
Not everyone's going to be upfor that.
And I think she really havewanted to be, and then
ultimately it was like, whetherit's timing or whether it's wet
or you know, that's a wholeother thing.
Um, she had to so then there wasthis other person in her world
(21:41):
that like just And she knows howbe.
She knows how to be in thatversus
Val (22:02):
Why don't we break for Story Thank you so much for
sharing with this cat going tocome back how do you, where do
you go?
Where does a broken heart go forYeah.
(22:23):
All right.
Thanks for listening to ourcommercials Are you looking for
love?
But you're ready to give up ondating it's.
So hopper
Kat (22:33):
I It's okay.
I'm okay.
Val (22:37):
Were you worried about our listeners?
Kat (22:40):
Yeah.
I'm like, you're like, let'sthrow your commercial while
you're crying in a puddle.
Val (22:45):
Yes.
Yes.
Please listen to ourcommercials.
Oh, that might not sound good.
Kat (22:52):
Yeah, because the commercial is like, are you
looking for love?
Val (22:57):
Okay folks, you're just witnessing.
That was not a good, all right.
Maybe we're going to throw it acommercials now.
Kat (23:03):
No, no, no, it's
Val (23:04):
okay.
I'm okay.
Kat (23:08):
That's so funny
Val (23:09):
of our little nephews fell down and was like, I'm going to
take guys.
I don't think I'm going to sayso if you could, I always say
that I'm Otay.
I'm Otay.
Kat (23:17):
that's me.
That's what I'm saying rightnow.
Val (23:19):
You're Otay.
Ooh.
Kat (23:20):
I am a messy bitch.
And we're going to talk aboutlike, I'm still healing, it's
still relatively fresh.
So I wanted to acknowledge thatwhat I found the most helpful
was that In particular, you andanother close friend who is also
therapist was telling me storieswhere like, you're like, yeah, I
know what it feels like.
to have that like intenseconnection and, I didn't finish
(23:43):
my thought, but I was likelooking up twin flames, but then
also.
Googling like Trauma bonds.
And I was like, I think this istwo ways of saying the same
thing, you know, I'm enough of awoo bitch.
That I wanted to be something.
The goal connection.
Right.
But also
Val (23:57):
it a twin flame or is it drama?
Kat (23:59):
know, like we used to say to each other, like, You feel
like home?
You're so familiar.
in that I was reading abouttrauma bonds Or like, if someone
says you feel like,
Val (24:08):
oh man, And maybe you think that you bonded over having some
similar trauma?
Kat (24:14):
We just have had similar trauma and we, You know, again,
in one of the earlier episodes,we sort of make a joke about.
me Being like what?
You don't want to talk abouttrauma all the time.
because I'm like, We're healingit, we're healing all the trauma
and they're like, ah, this is alot.
Val (24:31):
It seems like you're having a real great time over here and
that ouch.
For people who maybe had neverheard of a twin flame, can you
Kat (24:38):
no just Google it?
Jesus crisis and fairs.
Val (24:42):
I'm like, don't be mean to our listeners.
Oh, okay.
Nope.
You brought it up, you ran rightto it.
Bitch.
You got to explain it.
Kat (24:51):
Okay.
So, um, my limited research intotwin flames is ID.
like your soul is split in halfand you have this other half out
there in the world.
I know.
But then It's like the kind ofconnection that's, kind of can
be kind of tumultuous andsometimes you guys can work
through it and sometimes not.
And it's supposed to provokesome big growth in your life.
Val (25:14):
So maybe it doesn't mean that you have to be with this
person forever, but maybe theyprovoked growth in you.
Kat (25:20):
I think they're trying that connection.
Right.
And what's interesting when youread about like Trump.
it really sounds similar.
Like seriously people, you couldGoogle both of these things and
they read various similarly the,what is it about human beings?
where you can have some sharedtrauma and then you feel like,
oh my God, you're Yeah.
So my Googling of twin flamesand trauma, bonding was like in
(25:41):
the height of me, like justlooking to find a story that
makes sense.
So I know that trauma bonding isactually like a larger fuller
thing.
And so I I just was picking andchoosing little cherry picking
because I was trying to findsomething to make sense of it.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
So I got it through my head thatlike we're broken up, it wasn't
(26:01):
event I had to reorganize mywhole self from afterwards.
Right.
And then there's the loss.
And then the grief, and thenthere's.
this Sensation of like, oh myGod, what does this mean about
my ability to trust myself?
Right.
And so all these things are inthe mix.
I'm trying really
Val (26:19):
to make sense
Kat (26:19):
Yeah I want it to make sense.
And sometimes things really justdon't make sense and That was
the conclusion I didn't want tohave to come to because it's
interesting.
I talk a big game about nothaving like big control and
outcome and stuff like that.
Right.
being, not attached to outcomebut as the truth is like the
idea that this doesn't havemean.
Or that just bad things happenor like, things just don't work
(26:40):
out the way we want.
Sometimes I was like, now Idon't like that.
This story does not resonatewith me.
Val (26:48):
isn't a good story.
Let's throw this book away.
Kat (26:53):
yeah.
And so I'm like, I live with alot of gratitude.
That's just a normal part of mylife.
And so.
Is there something I can begrateful for?
Nothing felt like I could holdonto it And again?
That's the thing like, you know,last week we talked about grief,
grief is a mother fucker.
right?
And then sometimes we have ourpersonal grief in the context of
a larger grief, the culture, andthere's all these different
(27:14):
things.
And so is it.
Hard time to be experiencing abreakup also is mercury
retrograde motherfuckers.
Val (27:26):
yes.
Can I say a few things that, Ithink I've, I've observed about
relationships.
So this, part, the second halfof this podcast episode is like,
how do you get up?
Where do broken hearts go?
This is my alternate title.
Where do broken hearts
Kat (27:39):
do they go?
Val (27:42):
Well, they find their way home.
Kat (27:44):
Home is yourself.
You are home.
Yeah.
Turns out
Val (27:49):
Here's the thing.
If I can get something throughto the people who are dating,
this could be a savvy to yourbroken heart, is that we want to
know the answer, why we want adiagnostic of what happened.
What's the real reason this isnot working.
I don't think that we reallyever get the real.
(28:09):
To be honest
Kat (28:10):
because you can't, you can't, the other person, has
their own story
Val (28:13):
the other person sometimes doesn't even know.
So if you want to say, tell mewhy they, might not really be
able to get to the why orexplain it because feelings,
attraction is all incrediblycomplicated, right?
There's also some things thatare hard to say and explain
like, I just wasn't feeling itanymore.
(28:34):
Or like, I don't think this isit.
those things are
Kat (28:38):
Oh and it hurts my feelings
Val (28:40):
and I'm not talking about you specifically.
Kat (28:43):
No, she said that shit to me.
Yeah.
Val (28:47):
Oh, she said that to
Kat (28:48):
Yeah.
She said that she wasn't nolonger feeling the things that
she felt that she should And shewas also explaining it in the
context of being reallyoverwhelmed.
And so she was like, I don'tknow why I'm but like, these are
all the things.
you know,
Val (29:03):
So I get messages helped me.
I'm fixating, I'm waking up.
So then I tell them to askthemselves, what are you really
wanting?
Is it that you want, answers sothat you can trust yourself next
time?
Is it cause you need closure?
Is it because you have a beliefabout yourself are you
suspicious about the answer?
(29:24):
So, so a lot of times it's, I'llget soothed by knowing a real
answer.
Okay.
I don't know that the answer isreally going to Sue you.
So another way to Sue.
Something that you said, Iasked, why does it feel so
important this love was right?
Because if it wasn't and how canmyself And you're the one who
(29:48):
coined the phrase.
Like, I didn't think that shecould hold what we
Kat (29:52):
actually that wasn't me.
that was my other good friendWho's also, a
Val (29:55):
oh, shout out to the other good registered
Kat (29:58):
know I have the best fucking friends I'm the luckiest
Val (30:03):
but that made so much sense I think what drives people to
stay up late at night is that itfelt real in the moment.
And there's the dissonanceagain, there's the dissonance
that causes pain.
It felt real.
They said it was real, but nowthey're saying either it wasn't,
or it's not going to last.
And so how can I trust myself?
(30:23):
And when your friend said, I, Ijust don't think they could hold
it.
That just felt like such a greattool to share with people,
because then it's like the,both.
True at once.
Right?
It was real.
It was just for whatever reason,it either it didn't stick
because they just didn't likeyou,
Kat (30:42):
impossible.
Val (30:43):
I know that seems impossible, but I also want to
be truthful.
Right.
Cause we can, we can handle thetruth
Kat (30:49):
sometimes,
Val (30:49):
right.
Or their trauma or theirattachment style or whatever
they've got going on in theirlife.
They were there with you in thatmoment.
And they're like, yes, I wantthat.
And they couldn't hold it forwhatever reason, oh, so helpful.
That's golden.
Kat (31:03):
Yeah.
I mean, it's still fucking overand you're like, that's not what
I wanted to happen
Val (31:08):
Right.
And I think that's where we canuse the radical acceptance.
I think we talked about
Kat (31:11):
that last time
Val (31:12):
But can I also say, so when you were talking
Kat (31:14):
yeah
Val (31:15):
about when the relationship was getting this kind of on
again, off
Kat (31:18):
right The attachment style stuff was getting wrong,
Val (31:21):
it was yes.
And I think it's the love stinksepisode that we talk a lot about
attachment.
If you want to go back to thatone, you were talking and
secretly I was like, oh shit,this sounds like an experience I
had in college in Bible collegethat we both went to with a
person that, you know,
Kat (31:39):
I know, I know this
Val (31:41):
I will call actually, I thought about calling him Romeo.
Cause we don't want to usepeople's real names that, that
were.
Kat (31:46):
Romeo is a really appropriate,
Val (31:49):
I was a little baby, right?
Probably very naive inrelationship, um, understanding
Kat (31:55):
Yeah.
Val (31:55):
actually funny story His cousin was in our dorm and I saw
a picture and I was like, Ooh,who's that?
And I pointed the Romeo and Isaid, oh, that's my cousin.
I said, oh, tell him to comehere.
He's cute.
Next semester.
Kat (32:09):
Right.
I know.
I remember.
You like, made out
Val (32:15):
Oh my That
Kat (32:18):
was such a big deal.
in this fucking conservative,goddamn
Val (32:22):
Oh, I can spell a little TIVA.
I will.
I will.
Um, yes we did.
We'll, we dated for a while,okay.
You were telling your story.
Oh, shit.
This sounds like my stupid sagawith Romeo, but I didn't want to
offend you because we were alittle babies and I didn't have
this deep, connection that, youall had.
(32:45):
But I was like, oh no, this,sounds
Kat (32:48):
Oh I used to say that like, when some of this First started
happening.
I was like, it feels like theyare like a fuck boy with a
savior complex.
Val (32:55):
So it was the same thing that like, we'd get close.
I'm like, wow.
people.
Oh, they're like destined to betogether.
Aren't
Kat (33:02):
they?
Val (33:03):
we kept being together.
I think we were only datingactually for a little while and
then it was on again off again.
Yeah, we would, we would makeout.
And that was a big deal ofavocados and purity culture.
You could get kicked out ofschool for anything more than
that.
And then it'll be on.
And then he broke up with me anddated this other girl that was
both of our friends anyway, evenI moved to the bay area, he's
(33:24):
from the bay area.
Right.
So I see him and, we do kissagain a couple of
Kat (33:29):
times.
I wish you guys could see yourface right now.
Her face is like scrunched upand went, wait.
Oh my kids again, sometimes
Val (33:37):
Oh, So
Kat (33:38):
hate you already called her So much It's such a big deal
Val (33:41):
Like, and it's just the flirting.
We all leave and work together.
How could I forget that?
We worked together.
coworkers saw the, sorry.
Twin flame.
Crackling.
no fucking to blame.
Like they saw the, attraction,like chemistry.
This is where I was like, oh,I'm going to tell cat about
that.
He's like, yeah, I don't thinkwe ever have a future.
(34:02):
I want a date I'm in love withyour best friend.
Best friend joined at the hipall through college roommates,
even in San Francisco.
I'm in love with her.
Biggest gift I could have gottenbecause it was the one thing.
Kat (34:16):
Wait finish the thought though.
It was the one thing that you'relike, no, I'm done game over
Val (34:20):
Game over if you like my best friend.
No.
And so that happened to
Kat (34:26):
Two weeks after she broke up with me, she said, she's in
love with this other woman andhe used the word in love.
And in the moment it's did notwant her to know how fucking
that was to, read Actually wewere texting And then later I
did call my other friend, who'sthe therapist and fucking
screamed and raged.
Cause I was like very galled bythat, honestly, But it was the
(34:49):
thing that got me off the road.
It was the thing that I was likesometimes
Val (34:53):
I think, fuck boys know that like, if I just can cut the
cord, what's the one thing theycould never come back from.
And so.
it's this pattern.
and I'm like, I'm sorry if thisoffends you to be compared to a
situation with this Robio butyou said that.
I was in good company.
Like you felt stupid.
I felt so stupid.
I'm supposed to be the smartgirl.
(35:13):
I'm supposed to have like a goodhead on my shoulders.
And I went straight for the fuckboy.
And like, went through all thisbullshit.
And had the blind spots.
Right.
So it was like the cycle we haveto listen to people we also
can't be like, oh, that's theirtrauma.
And it can fix,
Kat (35:31):
I wanted to fix them so bad I wanted us to heal together.
I thought that.
So too idealistic about it all.
Val (35:36):
I know.
Kat (35:37):
Some of their behavior does look like, fuck boy, with a
savior complex.
Like, I was really proud ofmyself recording that phrase.
but I also want to say, that'snot them in their entirety,
right?
They're not a one dimensional.
villain.
Val (35:49):
no Of
Kat (35:50):
yeah.
Both Of these people are notvillain.
Yours is a little bit like anasshole.
No, I'm kidding.
I'm joking.
But like, I just wanted to likethrow that back in there because
like, I'm not trying to likeburn the shit up and I'm not
trying.
to like Really like getvengeance or like get back at
her.
So I'm just trying to tell thetruth of like Jesus Christ.
This was really hard and I'm notthe only ones experience you've
(36:13):
experienced it.
my other friend's experience.
We're out here having thesefucking experiences where you're
like, I do not know how toreorganize my.
This is fucking devastating.
How do I come back from this?
How do I trust myself again?
Right?
Why is this so fucking hard?
Val (36:27):
And I think, you've said, okay.
I think there were some redflags, like, this is what I
would tell clients.
Right?
Like I think there were some redflags and actually cat.
I don't think I'd be the besttherapist for you sometimes.
Although you say you do listenback to the podcast, And use
some of the things I say, I tellpeople, look there's no behavior
that's right or wrong.
It's just how helpful is it?
So I said, look, you could goahead and go into the future
(36:50):
after one day and decide yourchildren's names and where
you're going to live.
The only thing you need to knowis that the further into the
future, you go.
The harder the fall is to comeback to, present day.
That's all you have to be awareof.
And for you you're ready for thefall because you're like I have
Kat (37:09):
my God, I'm a cocky motherfucker sometimes.
So seriously.
I
Val (37:13):
I'm glad you finally, I'm glad you finally admitted that
on this podcast because
Kat (37:17):
I own that shit, motherfucker.
Val (37:19):
I give you, cause I have reactions to some of the things
you say, I sound like, fuck, youknow, gathered that's bullshit,
but then I feel bad cause I'mtrying to be a more open person
and like whatever.
like whatever, maybe the way Ithink about it.
Isn't right.
But yes, I love it.
I love all of
Kat (37:34):
no, it.
is it's okay.
Some of it is Like, my hyperfixation or whatever.
Yeah.
I know what it feels like to enda long-term marriage, you know,
like I have survived heartbreak,right.
And so I was like willing to runhard at this, thing that was
making me feel so good.
And I was like, yeah, if itdoesn't work out, I'm going to
be okay.
Is it, So then that's not, nottrue.
(37:56):
It just hurt.
like damn is dating cries sofucking much
Val (38:04):
So look also with dating.
This is what I like to tell you.
Kat (38:06):
yeah, Look,
Val (38:08):
daily dating is a motherfucking Rola causer.
Kat (38:13):
is.
a roller
Val (38:15):
And do you know why
Kat (38:16):
Tell
Val (38:16):
Because these are strangers fucker.
These are strangers.
You don't know them when you seea dog in.
Public that you do not know youask, can I touch it?
Because you don't know what thisdog is going to do.
Is it going to bite you?
Is it going to slobber all overyou?
Is it going to eat your lunch?
(38:37):
You, this is a stranger.
These people are strangers.
You
Kat (38:43):
is anyone going to date?
Val (38:45):
meet exactly.
This is why it's so torturing.
You have actually decided to goon a rollercoaster that you have
never seen the preview video.
You don't know when the nextloop is coming.
That is why it's sounpredictable.
I say, if you dated Ken or, Jenfrom the office, And you're
(39:06):
like, oh, okay.
I can kind of see he's like,he's funny, he's quiet.
if you're going to start datingsomebody that you already know,
it's not going to be as wild ofa ride because you're like,
okay, I kind of have a little
Kat (39:17):
That makes perfect
Val (39:18):
so they're strangers.
Kat (39:19):
Yeah I got it.
Val (39:20):
Where okay.
I'm trying to,
Kat (39:22):
I know
Val (39:23):
I'm trying to transition out of my thought to another
Kat (39:26):
sorry.
Well, okay.
I
Val (39:30):
Oh, you're sad.
Okay.
Okay.
What else?
Well, what do you want to talkabout next then?
Sad,
Kat (39:35):
Yeah well, because it just saves me overwhelmed.
Like I do want to be in loveagain.
And so.
like, you know, I don't know,Val,
Val (39:46):
Oh I'm
Kat (39:47):
is it worth it
Val (39:48):
I'm not being very,
Kat (39:49):
like a love doulos like, everybody's a stranger.
Val (39:55):
No, I'm not saying that.
I'm saying I want to get youready for the right.
Like, look, I'm the person thatI want to walk around the
rollercoaster and see, okay.
How many flips is there?
Because I could, I can.
Kat (40:05):
totally,
Val (40:06):
That's the only my personality.
Kat (40:07):
Yeah No, but that's what your career too.
And you're really good.
at it.
So I should have taken your,like, prepare yourself for love.
Of course, this whole thingcould've been avoided.
I wouldn't have been crying forweeks on end.
Oh, wait, I don't think thisthing could have been avoided.
There was no way.
I wasn't going to do all
Val (40:26):
No, no.
And
Kat (40:27):
there was no way.
someone is shiny as I'm showedup.
I wasn't going
Val (40:31):
that's why remember when you were like, should I break up
with them?
I was like, I know, I know.
You're not, I know you're notbecause we all you have to go
for it.
I think that's amazing.
I do.
Kat (40:42):
Like for me, I feel like the biggest one is the
reorganization.
And I like what you said too,like the further you project out
into the future, the harder thefall, is and I know what was so
interesting about thisconnection is that neither one
of us was trying to do that.
We just, tap and We kind of bothran into each other really hard.
Val (40:58):
so how are you reorganizing after?
Kat (41:01):
Well, I think it's still early enough that I'm working on
it and you know, after a fewweeks I was like, I recognized
that I was fixating.
And so I'm like, well, I need tointroduce some new strangers.
Val (41:13):
Yes.
Kat (41:14):
and great
Val (41:15):
strategy for anxious attached, especially
Kat (41:17):
sure Yeah
Val (41:17):
get some more people in your
Kat (41:18):
Yeah.
And also it's the thing of.
like, a new connection remindsyou that this last person was
not the only person that's goingto be into you.
Right but also it's painfulbecause it's new, right?
These connections are, there isno ability in me to run out
someone, right?
Like Sometime I will have thatability again.
(41:39):
One person was the short-livedinteraction.
That met a need for me for ashort window.
And then I cut them loose prettyquickly, like after about a
week, because I just I couldn'tI didn't have capacity.
So I was like, thank you.
And I was really upfronteveryone knows.
I'm like dealing with aheartbreak.
So, I'm good at owning my shit,
Val (41:54):
you said you wanted to make sure you said this in the
podcast about how like flirting,with new people can be great,
but, there is something aboutbeing known and that different
energy about like strangers takea lot of
Kat (42:07):
they really do Yeah.
So it's interesting.
Getting other people in my lifethat I could, engage with in
this particular way, like wherethere's some flirtatious and
sexual energy exchange but I'meven aware of the fact that
like, can't hold anyone.
Else's hard life stuff.
Like.
at all.
All of this other persons, thisperson I was in love with I just
(42:28):
gobbled up her truck and I washolding so much space for it.
So now I'm really aware thatlike I have almost no capacity
to even be.
like, oh, that sounds hard.
I'm really sorry to hear that.
It's really, I keep, I keephearing myself go say like good
luck with that.
I'm not trying to be an asshole.
Val (42:48):
No, you, you, I know that you've been good about your
boundaries.
Like, Hey, I don't have thatcapacity for that.
Kat (42:53):
And then when I feel the need to, like, the grief just
keeps showing up, I just, I cry,the shifting has slowly been
happening.
And then for me, I decided to,well, I don't think I told this
part of the story, but after,she said that she was in love
with this other that again whenwe were together, it was
creating dissonance.
This particular and so, Idecided that was no way for me
(43:17):
to still be in their life ifthey were I knew that the other
person was, really jealous ofme.
And I just thought, I feel soshitty to me, it feels so bad in
my body to like, try to maintainany kind of connection with this
person.
When you know, I just know thatit's going to make them feel
gross And if you love thisperson, then I can't.
(43:38):
I just can't.
So I cut off communication,which.
again, Devastating honest to Goddevastating, but then it was
like the pressure was buildingand building and building until
like literally this one.
I was a little high and I, thatfelt like just kind of like a
good excuse to be like, textthem.
to be like, Oh, it's because I'mhigh, but really Jesus Christ
(43:58):
almost every day, I'd be like,I'm going to call them.
And so I did end up texting andthen their response was really
like, kind of Curt.
and, it popped the bubble for meand I was like,
Val (44:14):
See, in the past I don't think I would.
counsel someone to do that, butnow it's like, just taking a
different route of like, I don'tknow.
What do you think like, and, foryou, that was what you needed
was to kind of pop that bubbleor it was a way you decided to
go,
Kat (44:30):
I know but I think too, like our brains, when I do this
thing and my brain kept wantingto be well, cause I, am still in
love with this person.
It's just not over for me I knowthat the relationship is over
but my feeling.
are all the way resolved yet andthat's fine.
It's fine.
That, that's true.
So my brain was creating a storywhere they were
Val (44:50):
was
Kat (44:52):
to get like a little interaction and whether or not
it's true.
Like, I mean, they didn'tdisclose that they've been
thinking about me or notthinking about.
me, but The invitation to talkwas made available to them and
they passed.
It dispelled the part of me thatwanted to lean into the story we
both miss
Val (45:09):
terrible, um, that's thank you for sharing that.
That's pretty intimate and like,I think helpful.
No, it's, it's very intimate andhelpful.
I think for people listening.
Can I also say.
And wanted to make sure we siton this podcast you know, we've
referenced the attached book,which I really love.
And they spend a bit of time inthe beginning of the book
talking about like, this is allnormal, that everything in our
(45:30):
body.
from an evolutionary standpoint,all the chemicals, the dopamine,
the oxytocin are actually tryingto get us to bond.
And so it is a ripping apart.
And I know that that's whatpeople feel and that, yes it's
okay.
And normal for you to knowlogically and to have this
breakup, but still have thosefeelings even be in love with
(45:52):
that person for a whileafterwards, it hurts.
Kat (45:55):
Yeah.
Val (45:55):
I wanted to say something else too, that I think you did a
very wise thing.
And I wonder if that's why it'smore painful now, right?
Kind of the ripping off thebandaid instead of tearing it
little bit by bit, is that a lotof people get stuck right.
At the end of this relationshipyou're talking about, there
started to become the cycle ofcan we say together, can we not
(46:16):
this kind of a thing?
And a lot of people get stuck inthat side.
And it was hard for you evenwith a very strong practice of
self-centering to say, I have tocenter myself, this is not good
for me.
Kat (46:28):
Well, yeah, cause my body's really communicative.
So I mean, it really is like Ijust felt terrible.
I had to get So
Val (46:38):
But I see people getting stuck in that and, everyone's
talking about I don't want towaste time.
I want to find someone, but Ithink instead of seeing it that
way, cause we can't control whensomeone comes into our life that
we mesh You can control how muchtime you spend.
And again, we've talked about,Hey, sometimes you do put your
head in the sand and, you'relike, this isn't the best thing,
(46:58):
but you're not ready to give itup yet.
But I think if we pay moreattention of when we're in
pseudo relationships, which ismaybe a term that we use to
describe anything that isn't anintimate.
Relationship
Kat (47:12):
you mean like committed.
romantic
Val (47:13):
committed.
And only if that's what youwant.
Right.
It's only a pseudo relationship.
If what you really want is, acommitted.
Relationship.
And then you're, kind ofsettling for something that is
pseudo what you want.
And so there's lots of reasonswhy we stay in that and why that
is maybe sometimes even safer
Kat (47:34):
Oh yeah.
Well, totally.
That makes a lot of sensebecause if you, it is safer
because you get to doself-preservation you don't risk
as much in Isn't thatinteresting, but then there's
The dissonance Cause you'relike, that's only partially.
what I want.
Yeah.
Well, my other therapist friendsaid.
I was looking for takeaways orthings I could keep.
(47:56):
And I think some of that willcome.
It's still kind of earliest.
So there's still, lots of thegrief is still a bit unwieldy,
honestly.
but one thing they said, what ifone of the It is just trust is
earned.
Cause I, I really am verytrusting and the reason why I'm
so trusting, is cause I'm sotrustworthy.
I don't have the ability to be Idon't know if that sounds like
(48:19):
I'm blowing smoke up my own assor something, but it creates
dissonance in me too not tell mywhole truth all the time.
And I think maybe that's noteveryone's cup of tea, but I
just, I love communicating.
I love The, process of learningand understanding myself and
learning and understandingsomeone else if there is
something in my whole life I'vehyper-focused on, it's that
(48:41):
right?
And so that's the energy I bringwhen I'm connecting with There's
this new connection that we'veonly talked on the phone and
message and we she was asking medo you think you'll be nervous
we'll meet in real life.
And I was like, you know, I getkind of the normal, nervous,
excited feelings.
But If you like me right now,you'll just like me more.
in I just, this is really who Iam.
(49:03):
It doesn't occur to me thatanybody else is doing You know
what I mean?
And So like, I'm trusting,everything that someone is
saying to me.
So if someone says, you're thelove of my life.
I think that means they want meAnd So it didn't occur to me
that that could be a changeablething, So I was driving an Adele
(49:28):
send my love to your new lover,and I was just listening to the
and, um, I wrote down some ofthe she sings, I forgiven it.
you set me I got to let go ofall of our And so the bubble
that I had with this person, Icherish it.
(49:49):
It felt like we were the bestversions of ourselves, with each
other.
It felt so good to feel as shemade me feel and how I got to be
such a full and complex likeversion of I didn't want to let
that go.
I wanted this story to godifferent, but you know, and
(50:11):
radical acceptance, right?
Like she, let me go.
And so I'm gonna do the same.
And it was just interesting thatlike I hadn't thought about the
word forgiveness that that'skind of a churchy word in my
but, you know, as I heal, it waskind of interesting to wake up
okay.
So send my love to your newlover.
I heard on the radio and thenthe next morning I woke up
(50:33):
almost like in a dream state,and I was sort of dreaming that
song and I was dreaming, youknow, like sending this other.
woman, send my love to thisother woman and my conscious
mind interrupted that like kindof generous thought, right.
And was like, no, she called youthe love of her life.
And then I immediately was theawareness of like, oh, I'm just
(50:55):
going to have to forgivewhatever that meant to her and
what it meant when I heard it,maybe they were the same at the
time, but it was.
obviously not something shecould hold or follow And so then
we just have to forgive peoplefor being human.
Right.
And so, so that's the space I'min yeah, sent me free and, try
(51:20):
I'm not all the way there, butthen, you know,
Val (51:26):
thank you so much for sharing.
This has been a gift you'vegiven.
Kat (51:29):
Has this been helpful to any of You guys, on a now?
Is this just like trauma porn?
Like, let me just pour my heartout Okay.
But please.
Seriously.
If this was actually helpful, Ijust need you.
I am.
begging you.
need like immediate feedback.
of like, thank you, Kat.
This is very helpful.
Val (51:50):
We said it already in this episode, there's power when
someone else shares or you'relike, yeah, me too,
Kat (51:55):
Yeah.
I hope I made it really clear.
Like the reason why I wanted todo this episode was because you
sharing and then this otherperson sharing of really similar
kind of.
dynamics And it not going theway you wanted.
It felt like a life raft.
Val (52:08):
And that
Kat (52:08):
It really did instead of getting completely towed under
I'm like, oh, I'm not alone.
And you're fine.
Look at you.
So happily married with thegyrating hips.
That's a success story.
Val (52:25):
and I think we've shared this.
We're not trying to save anyoneor tell anyone how to live
instead in the new version ofourselves in our new, jobs,
we're just sharing and puttingout into the world Of course we
would want our stories to Oh, Iwas going to say help people.
Kat (52:45):
Oh, yeah.
I've got some more healing.
Oh
Val (52:53):
My dear friend.
I love you so
Kat (52:55):
Thanks for being on this ride with us
Val (52:57):
Uh, until next time I love you.
Kat (53:01):
Bye.
Val (53:02):
Are you looking for love?
But you're ready to give up ondating it's.
So hopper and reset yourself forlove with me in my six week
coaching program together, we'llprepare you for dating with new
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Kat (53:20):
It's like you're a
Val (53:20):
dating doula.
Exactly.
I'm here to guide you on yourjourney to love.
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