July 4, 2022 • 45 mins
Kat and Val venture into uncharted territory while they explore their past experience with religious faith healing and living with chronic illness. Bantering while they explore being open to supernatural healing and recognizing the complexities of healthism and ableism in “spiritual” spaces. Our hosts share vulnerable stories about their own bodies and how each of their diagnosis’ have impacted their lives. Listen to the good, the bad, the ugly, and the doggedly hopeful conversation that is sure to make you laugh, make you think, and challenge beliefs that may not be serving us.
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast
Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club
Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art
Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
Good
Val (00:34):
morning.
Kat (00:34):
Good morning.
Yeah.
Val (00:36):
What'd you just say
Kat (00:37):
I said we should sing for the people vow.
Val (00:41):
shit.
I just love, I have so manyhumans in my life that are like,
people are just waiting for meto just dazzle them with my
talents and my presence.
I love
Kat (00:51):
It's accurate your talent and your presence is so
Val (00:54):
accurate.
I'm talking about you though.
Kat (00:56):
well, yeah.
Yeah, it's true.
Val (01:00):
we should dazzle the people cat.
Oh my
Kat (01:02):
oh my God.
I was at a pool party yesterdayand someone said the word
kaleidoscope and I wrote themost.
Incredible erotic piece ofpoetry.
Val (01:10):
about aScope what the
Kat (01:13):
no, no, it was just a word in it.
It was just a word in it.
And I was like, oh my God,anyway.
And so I was like, you wannahear a poem?
I wrote.
And they're like, yes, fuck.
And so I was like reading italoud to them.
I was very proud of myself, butthat's really.
funny.
I don't think of myself asalways being like, oh, let me
delight you with my presence.
But I am like that.
I I
Val (01:31):
I, so many of cats sentences start with, I really
don't consider myself this typeof person, but once in a while I
am I think more than once in awhile, cat, sorry to
Kat (01:44):
guys don't know how much, how many hours a day I'm like in
my room, napping, you know, likethat's why, like I have the more
fuller picture.
Ah, yeah
Val (01:52):
I see.
I
Kat (01:53):
see.
in social situations, it's verydifferent.
Val (01:55):
when you come out, you're like, look, I have all this
Kat (01:58):
to give.
Yes.
Yes.
That's
Val (01:59):
hilarious I really want this to go in our book of things
that like cat wrote an eroticpiece of poetry off of the word
kaleidoscope.
That was
Kat (02:09):
the name of the poem.
A kaleidoscope of pleasure wasthe line.
It's
Val (02:12):
The kaleidoscope
Kat (02:13):
a beautiful imagery, right?
It's hot.
Val (02:16):
I, I dunno.
That's like weird body partskind of coming and going I don't
know.
Okay.
Calling
Kat (02:22):
my imagery
Val (02:23):
Sorry.
Sorry.
Sorry.
You're right.
You're right.
I'm an asshole.
Thank you.
Am I the asshole?
Thank you, Reddit.
You're right.
I don't wanna silly yourbeautiful piece of artwork
before I even heard about it.
Speaking of erotica, I, just gotback from San Diego.
We've been reunited.
It feels so good.
And I was like, I only forgotone thing.
It's my strap on ice pack.
Kat (02:46):
I was like, what's happening?
What's happening?
Oh, there you go.
It's a nice pack.
Okay.
Val she's not a prude anymore.
Everybody.
Val (02:53):
friends were also like, oh, I saw strap on, but that was
just like naturally how I wasdescribing to my pickle ball
friends that I have this, it'san ice pack.
Like it's like a belt you wear,you could put it on your back,
strap it on your knee.
But I called it the strap on icepack.
everyone was like, Ooh, all theeyes got big on the pickle ball
(03:15):
court.
It was great.
I do love a little tease once ina while.
Kat (03:19):
Yeah, you do.
Are you kidding me?
Roundup Oh God.
It's
Val (03:23):
that was so great.
So we're reunited again.
I went down to San Diego again,see how my husband refi's twin
one of my best friends.
And I gotta tell ya we did likea night or two of babysitting
again.
Yeah.
And we lost a kid right off thebat
Kat (03:41):
But it's not a baby kid.
It's like a 10 year old kid.
That's okay.
That's not so bad.
That's not so bad you
Val (03:47):
tell me it's okay.
It's okay.
At that age, they're fine
Kat (03:50):
They know phone numbers.
It's all right.
Val (03:52):
and the parents had just gone to the airport and more
like thanks again.
See you in like two days and I'mlike, you guys almost got
recalled.
Okay.
we thought he was taken.
This is where you could tellwe're substitutes.
But he was returned back with astrict warning, the older
brother, you need to text us.
If, if you take the younger
Kat (04:10):
even have a phone.
He has a phone.
It's fine.
Yeah, no, I know that.
That's scary though.
I'm sure
Val (04:15):
it, it was,
Kat (04:16):
I don't mean to make too
Val (04:17):
it was a little scary.
And then I did have, of course,because why not?
There was a pickle balltournament happening, like a.
Gigantic one right down thestreet, walking distance from my
friend's house.
So I'm like I have to play.
So I schemed and I got my,pickleball partner
Kat (04:33):
That's awesome
Val (04:34):
and we won bronze.
We got a little more
Kat (04:37):
congratulations great.
Still
Val (04:38):
So still pickleball
Kat (04:39):
champion.
Val (04:41):
so that was great to have a little cheering section, but as
my, pickle ball partner wasshowing up from the airplane.
Rafi, my husband, Slashed hisfoot on a segue, a runaway segue
ran up his leg, sliced it open.
It was like, imagine a puppet.
Imagine Burton
Kat (04:58):
no I don't want to imagine this
Val (05:02):
So I'm finishing up my therapy sessions in the corner
of my eye in the window, I cansee Murphys going up and down
the driveway.
On a segue and I'm like, dude,
Kat (05:13):
dude, he's such a big kid.
Oh,
Val (05:15):
and then I come out and then the older kid is like TIAL
uncle or feet needs stitches.
Kat (05:20):
What are you talking
Val (05:20):
are you talking about?
And he is like, yeah, there'sher feet on the couch
Kat (05:24):
Oh no,
Val (05:25):
up.
And I'm like, what happened?
Like, I don't know.
And then it was just fascinatingthat my little nephew, he had
already like, Neopore it andlike bandaged it and then
wrapped it.
And then, oh, well that's gonnahurt.
Like, you probably need somemeds.
And he's like, Teva.
I already gave him someibuprofen.
I know like such great
Kat (05:43):
That's awesome
Val (05:44):
know but then he was really cramp.
Style that day.
My because my partner wassupposed to come.
We were supposed to grab somelunch, go get some practice in
cuz I haven't played with her inweeks.
so we're like, okay, fine.
my pickleball partner is a grownadult.
And so she came in and was like,yes, you need to get So we
dropped him off at the closest
Kat (06:06):
God, you dropped him off.
Yes.
Val (06:08):
yes.
We had to go get lunch.
We dropped him off at like theminute clinic, whatever Hopping
along had to feed the childrenyet.
We got lunch and then he wasfinally done and he's texted me,
send one of the boys to hold myhand.
I don't wanna get stitches.
He's never had stitches in hislife.
I'm like, which one do you wantme to send the older or the
(06:29):
younger?
And so he finally was done andwe brought him home but then
Now, you know, my husband doeshave ADHD and you know, this
hyperfocus kind of makes a lotof our life about him.
Kat (06:41):
sure, sure, sure.
Val (06:42):
that's been my work.
You and I have talked aboutthat.
That's been my work settingstrong boundaries with him.
And I mean, I feel like a totalasshole because he cut his foot
open.
Right.
Kat (06:51):
right.
But you had shit going
Val (06:53):
I had shit going on.
Kat (06:55):
and you guys are in charge of these two boys.
It's a lot.
It was very inconvenient.
If you were fi.
To injure yourself in a fuckingsegue
Val (07:03):
not the right timing, wear shoes.
He was in his sandals.
Like any good Brazilian
Kat (07:08):
Oh
Val (07:08):
Yeah, so on Sunday, we had tickets to this concert and a
reservations for dinner.
So I had to be a pickleballchampion, go wash my hair.
Cause it was very sweaty.
And then Ravi's like, well, youknow, I need a shower too.
Now, granted, I gave him asponge bath the day before.
He is so excited about that.
Cause he just wants all theattention and all the babying.
(07:30):
He wants to be a baby again.
Yeah, I know.
I
Kat (07:33):
I know.
Val (07:35):
He's like, no, no, I need, I need a shower.
And I was so proud of myselfthat I'm like, look, I can't go
to a nice dinner and a concertwith, Sweaty hair
Kat (07:43):
at you advocating for your own needs.
I
Val (07:45):
you advocating for your own needs.
I know it's hard sometimes.
And good for AFE.
If you listen to the earlierepisodes he's doing just enough.
Yeah.
80 20 around
Kat (07:52):
him around and
Val (07:53):
keep him around.
And so he is like, no, no, it'sokay, babe.
I understand you go take care ofyour stuff.
Bob, I'm just gonna take ashower.
I'm like, how are you not gonnabe able to take a shower without
my help?
He's like, don't worry about me.
I'm like, all right.
So I go about my business and weshould post the picture because
Kat (08:07):
I really want
Val (08:08):
He's laying in the bathtub at a very awkward angle.
with his,
Kat (08:13):
foot
Val (08:14):
with his.
Kat (08:14):
dangling his foot dangling.
Val (08:15):
foot's dangling.
I think I said it to you.
And I'm like, tell me how you'renot gonna need my help, but to
get out of this position, didhe,
Kat (08:22):
Did he, did he need help?
Of course he
Val (08:26):
course he did cat.
And of course I helped him.
Oh, and then he had to get on a,plane to Amster them.
Oh my God.
Like two days later
Kat (08:34):
work stuff while
Val (08:35):
work.
Yeah.
He, they had a ton of meetings,like all over Europe and he had
to go
Kat (08:40):
oh God, bye buddy
Val (08:41):
Is it wrong?
When I was like, okay.
Someone else's problem for aminute.
I know I'm terrible.
I'm terrible.
But you guys don't
Kat (08:50):
understand.
You not
Val (08:52):
You do not understand the high maintenance I think I might
have said this before.
One of the, one of the guys atpickle ball was like RAI got
injured again and he's like,wow, RAI gets hurt really
easily.
And I was like, look, he'sreally nice to look at, but he's
very fragile.
(09:12):
Oh cat Good and then I stayed anextra week.
Kat (09:16):
Yes you did.
And I was, I was okay with.
That's just, I know,
Val (09:20):
that's just about how she handled the folks I knew, but
she's taught me to centeryourself.
So she has to be okay with it.
Yeah.
They were like, why?
Well, you can, like, you canwork from here.
Why go home to an empty house?
I can't really argue with
Kat (09:34):
that.
Right Absolutely.
Val (09:35):
So here we are.
Kat (09:36):
They have a pool.
Val (09:37):
Yeah, Well I did a little, healing in the hot tub.
Kat (09:40):
Ooh.
Yeah.
Val (09:41):
hot tub.
Me and my amiga We haven't donethat in a long time.
Yeah, the healing flowed.
It was beautiful.
Kat (09:48):
love that.
It
Val (09:49):
beautiful.
Kat (09:50):
I love that.
Like, relationships can be likeso safe and so intimate that
like, the stars just sort ofmagically align and Oh, I can
tell this is like a big moment.
We're together and we'reprocessing through some big
stuff.
And like healing happens.
You know, we just had an episodeabout how we need one another
and like, transformation andlike shifts can happen.
And I just love that.
I all the stars align for thatto happen.
Val (10:11):
Thank you.
And it happened a couple monthsago with another friend, just
talking to me on the phone.
And I was like, wait, why can Ijust ask a question?
And then it was.
Oh, I feel it like mm-hmm
Kat (10:22):
Mm-hmm
Val (10:22):
something's ripping open and those moments, I do feel
like a vessel.
This is an ordained healingmoment.
Like, let it just happen.
Kat (10:29):
Oh, that's so beautiful.
Val (10:31):
Therapy's funny, right?
to be a stranger.
a caring, safe stranger,
Kat (10:35):
Yeah.
Right.
Val (10:36):
but then also it feels good obviously I'm not doing therapy
with them, but like thesehealing moments that
Kat (10:41):
Happen Yeah
Val (10:43):
be able to do it for the people you love is of course
Kat (10:45):
I have moments like that with my, humans that I'm close
with too, it's the overflow ofbeing, a healer in the world,
you know?
Yeah.
And like this neat convergenceof all of the things we've
learned along the way, like allyour knowledge about therapy and
whatnot, but also the spiritualright to like, feel the energy
and be like, oh, this person isready for their breakthrough or
oh, I need to ask this question.
I just.
Push on this one little spot.
(11:06):
Cause I think it's ready togive.
Oh, that's beautiful.
I'm getting chills.
Just talking
Val (11:11):
about, I know.
It's so good.
Kat (11:12):
I like that we can mix all the things, I talk about my own
spiritual journey being quiteeclectic, you know?
Yeah.
But there is a lot of actualknowledge in there too, all of
my knowledge of therapy andinjustice stuff.
There's.
Much complexity that goes intobeing a human being in the
Val (11:27):
Oh how do any of us get get by
Kat (11:30):
I know, I know somehow with the help of our friends,
Val (11:34):
do.
Aw, we do with the help of ourfriends.
Kat (11:38):
Exactly.
Yeah.
yeah
Val (11:41):
to commercial before we get today's topic?
Kat (11:43):
we have a fun topic for you all.
No, I mean, them saying a littlecheeky we're gonna talk about
our personal experiences livingwith chronic illnesses and how
it's shaped us and impacted ourlife.
And
Val (11:54):
and I will say if you do not have a chronic illness, I
mean, we're a fun ride anyway.
Kat (12:00):
yeah.
We're
Val (12:02):
I said, Jeff, that was a
Kat (12:03):
was, I know, I know said Joe, I slim dunked
Val (12:05):
that's right That's right.
I bet you know, someone yeah.
That suffers from somethingthat's chronic yeah.
And affects their life.
And I think that.
Whew.
It's just a different animal.
So I think you could alsobenefit from hearing a little
bit about that too, for thepeople you in your life
Kat (12:21):
as well?
Absolutely.
We'll be right back, everybody.
Val (12:24):
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Kat (12:42):
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Val (12:42):
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Val (13:20):
All right.
We're back.
Thanks for listening to ourcommercials.
Please support us.
Yeah, please pass our infoaround other people.
Kat (13:31):
looked at some statistics.
Will you just tell us the goodnews?
Val (13:35):
Well, yeah, I mean it says nearly half of Americans have
some sort of chronic illness.
And 96% of the chronic illnessesare invisible illnesses.
Kat (13:47):
That is such a huge fucking number.
Val (13:49):
And, you know, if you listen to our jingle, that's one
of our shared sort ofexperiences is that we both have
chronic illness and we've talkeda lot over the years about the
ways in which it has affectedour lives.
And how do humans get along inthis world by finding others to
commiserate and say, yeah, me
Kat (14:06):
right Yeah.
And validate your experiencesand
Val (14:09):
I've been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which I, sometimes
I feel like one doctor told meit's kind of a catchall they had
to make sure it wasn't lupus,that wasn't a brain tumor.
You know, some other things andthat maybe a lot of people who
are diagnosed with it.
There's lots of different thingsin there that maybe are, are
different.
but I mean, I was diagnosed whenI was in college.
(14:30):
I just had chronic headaches andfatigue.
And I remember telling myparents that we grew up in a
household where like there wasno money to go to the doctor
Kat (14:39):
mm-hmm
Val (14:39):
So you had to be really sick to go to the doctor.
And I was like, look, if, ifafter the summer these
headaches, aren't better.
I have to go.
And then yeah, in college, backthen, it was like, I a
rheumatologist And went throughthat process.
Mm-hmm but there was a pointwhere I thought I might have to
drop outta college or take a
Kat (14:57):
Oh
Val (14:57):
cuz I couldn't focus on writing papers And before that I
was, I, I probably was running alittle high the engine was
running a little high.
I was, you know, burning thecandle at both ends and then it
was wow.
I, I'd never feel good.
And So, that's been most of mylife, to be living with that.
(15:17):
And it's, one of the ones thatis an invisible illness.
So I even had a friend joke,like I did take one medical
leave once and they were like,oh, it's really great to have a,
illness that's invisible anddoesn't really affect you, but
you get time off.
And he was saying it in a jokingway.
Yeah.
Well, no, it's not fun.
Actually.
Well's sound
Kat (15:37):
I know wasn't stuff.
Fun to not feel good for likelarge portions of your
Val (15:42):
and like visible illnesses.
Aren't fun either.
None of it is
Kat (15:47):
fun,
Val (15:47):
but it is this weird dissonance.
We've been talking a lot aboutdissonance because right.
I show up to the pickleballcourt and like, I'm carrying.
The toll it takes on my body orhow much is gonna hurt me the
next day or how I'm preparing mystrap on ice pack.
and then it's weird that like,it's not that you really want
know, but then it feelsdissonant.
(16:09):
Yeah.
That nobody knows.
Kat (16:11):
Right.
Val (16:11):
How much extra it takes you.
Yeah.
But then we've been told in ourculture, like yeah, no bootstrap
it and all that stuff.
Right.
Oh, the pickle ball tournament,helping RFI out of the shower,
dinner a concert.
Kat (16:24):
That's a lot.
It makes me tired.
Sometimes you tell me about youdo on vacation
Val (16:29):
and then you know, there was a point and this used to
happened to me a lot.
When I was younger, so here,here's the biggest thing,
friends.
If you have someone in your lifewho has a chronic illness and
they say, they're tired, please.
Don't say yame Because, and weneed a new word because it's not
the same tired.
Kat (16:45):
No.
Val (16:46):
it's this all encompassing draining of your, energy, your
life force.
Kat (16:52):
what it feels like
Val (16:53):
it feels like.
It's like, Ooh.
And you just fall into a slump.
So when I was younger, I didthis a lot.
I would, I would lay on thefloor no matter where I was,
because it was like batteryover, like your phone is dead.
Kat (17:05):
Yeah.
Val (17:05):
And I would lay on the floor in like sometimes in gross
places.
So that was the first time in avery long time.
I've gotten better at pacingmyself.
We were at a concert hall andsome people left and I looked at
the row behind us.
I was like, I could lay on thatfloor cuz my whole body then
also gets antsy and restlesslike restless leg syndrome.
And so then we got home andwe're trying to like hang out
(17:27):
and then, and P is like havingto get ready for the next
morning to go on this trip.
Right.
And he needed a banded shade andlike, sorry guys.
I I'm like I've hit a wall.
I have to go sleep right now.
And I'm like, thank you so much.
Last night I just hit a wall andmy body gave out and they were
like, well, all of our bodiesdid.
Well, but I mean, I was likegonna sleep on the floor.
(17:48):
in the concert you can't explain
Kat (17:50):
qualify that and you feel, like you're bad, right
Val (17:53):
oh, well you were tired.
You went to bed.
I'm like, no, you don'tunderstand.
Like, I, I couldn't existanymore.
It hurt to be awake.
Kat (17:59):
Yes.
Oh, and for me what happens?
it's not always the awake part.
It's like, I need my head to belaying down immediately.
Like, there's something aboutlike, The amount of fatigue that
I experience.
if I'm upright for too long, Ijust am like desperate to be
laying down again.
It's like, my head needs to beparallel to the earth instead of
Val (18:17):
yeah.
Kat (18:18):
Yeah.
And then, so my story is, Ididn't know that I had a chronic
illness my whole life, and Iwasn't diagnosed with ADHD
either.
And so I spent most of my lateteens and twenties, kind of.
Hyper focused on like all of mymasking skills mm-hmm right.
How to be good in the worldview.
We were a part of.
And and also you.
(18:39):
I was good at it.
Like, I was good at being apastor.
Right.
But it was very relationaldriven and then I would hit a
wall too.
And it would be funny, like bythe time I was the campus
pastor, I was like hanging outwith all my students who were
doing an event or something.
It started to be like this funnyjoke where all the sudden I
would just get up whatever I wasdoing.
We were all hanging out togetherdoing some activity and it'd be
late enough.
I'd.
I'm out and I just would leave.
(19:00):
And I started feeling this funnyjoke over and thought it was so
funny, but it was an abrupt hita wall.
And then there's no option.
You can't linger
Val (19:07):
no.
I did the same thing too, whichI found out is called an Irish
goodbye.
I, I didn't know.
And I'm part Irish but they, wewould have all the worship team
at our house.
And I didn't like saying goodbyecause everyone's like, no,
Kat (19:19):
Right It's a whole big
Val (19:20):
So I would just sneak away.
And so they would tease me like,oh, Val, just like abandon us
again.
Kat (19:25):
I would just wave by, by him out.
I'm gonna go.
Yeah, so I had had two childrenand I was experiencing some
postpartum depression is what Ithought.
And so I was at the doctortrying to get treated with that.
And then another little whilegoes by, and I I'm listening to
an NPR piece and someone'sdiscussing Chronic illness
called lip edema.
And that's the name of what Ihave.
(19:46):
And so mine is both invisibleand visible in that it's
considered a fat disorder.
And so there are like disease tofat cells that are all over my
body that are actually kind ofpainful and they continue to
accumulate and it's not relatedto caloric intake or daily
movement.
And so it's such a strangeexperience to be like human
(20:06):
beings can witness me out in theworld.
See a large bodied person.
And and then there's the, thestigma that comes along with
just living in a fat body.
Right.
But then also then the ideathat, oh, I'm lazy, right.
Was just something, it was sucha battle.
Right Wow.
And I don't live in that spaceanymore.
Like it was, helpful in someways to have the diagnosis, but
(20:27):
in other ways I was like, Ooh, Ididn't really want that to be
part of my identity.
You know, I liked knowing thatmy body was strong.
So my body's like, you haveheard you say it too, like your
body's both strong and weak,right?
Like physically I can lift heavythings, but my stamina on my
energy level, it's like yourfeet fall out from underneath
you sometimes.
Right.
That's fascinating to live inthat constant tension.
(20:51):
Right.
Val (20:52):
right?
It is.
I think there's a lot of grief,you and I have talked about the
grief of living with a chronicillness and it's the diminished
capacity.
It's cuz it's also and like,well I just can't do what I used
to.
And then there's so much of theinternal dialogue and, well,
could I, could I press myself?
What's the sweet spot.
(21:13):
It's this it invisible fight,and, then the other is.
What's wrong with me and couldI, will this work, the new thing
and people, so like, makes metired about, well, well, meaning
people who are like, have youtried this?
Have you tried that?
And being hypervigilant aboutyour body and the cues and the
(21:35):
new pains?
Oh my gosh.
I, I mean, I had COVID 700 timesin the last two and a half years
in my mind,
Kat (21:43):
oh, my body hurts.
Is this COVID is this chronic
Val (21:45):
illness It takes up so much dialogue again for
Kat (21:47):
myself You didn't really have COVID at any times.
No.
Yeah
Val (21:50):
have it any times.
I think I might have once ortwice for real, for real, like
in the early days.
But again, it could have beenchronic illness.
But this hypervigilance on allyour symptoms and having to just
kind of.
Shut that off when it's nothelpful.
Kat (22:05):
I noticed that I was getting real fatigued.
This is like a few years ago nowthat I was like, I can't the
hyper focus you're talkingabout.
I can't do it anymore.
I the mental gymnastics oftrying to fit the puzzle
together.
Right.
I can't solve the puzzle.
And then that's where I startedreally embracing like again, the
radical acceptance.
Yeah.
Right.
Of like, okay, well, this is myreality.
That's the only way to getthrough the day is to lay down
(22:27):
enough.
And then I started justorganizing my life in a way that
I could do that, you know, andit wasn.
Clean.
It was messy.
It was messy to get to thatpart.
You know what I mean?
But I didn't have any otheroption in my mind cuz I just,
you've referenced it too withthe yo-yo dieting thing.
You're like, I can't do thisanymore.
I gotta get off this fuckingride.
And that's how it felt for metrying to solve the puzzle of
(22:47):
what can I do?
How can.
Adjust something.
So I'll finally feel betteragain.
And I think what we're dealingwith is the, belief that's
perpetuated out there, thatthere is some magic.
formula Right And that's what wewanna believe, but I don't think
it's a belief that serves me.
And so what serves me more islike, this is the reality I live
with and I gotta find a way tomake peace with it.
(23:08):
And even just now you're talkingabout like the fight and I'm
like, I don't like any languageabout fight or war or none of
that feels good in my body.
And so I'm like, I just have tomake peace with this.
And so softness is my way ofcoping
Val (23:20):
all
Kat (23:20):
the things.
And I don't do shit and I missout on stuff and I like gave up
on FOMO.
I don't have FOMO anymorebecause I.
I do shit that I wanna do, andit's a lot less than I used to
do.
And that's all I can do.
You know, most of my favoritethings that I do are pool
related, you know what I mean?
like, and that's really, reallyfun for me.
(23:40):
It's a real high like win,right?
But my same group of friendsthat had the fun pool party with
me went to an awesome fun partyin San Francisco during pride
weekend and partied at a clubfor hours.
And I didn't go, This is doesn'tfit, doesn't work.
Val (23:55):
Do you still feel grief over that?
A sadness?
Kat (23:58):
I mean a little bit, but it kind of passes through sometimes
it does sound fun and if there'ssomething I really, really want
to do, I can find a way to scaleit back.
Val (24:06):
And or you know, that you're gonna pay for it, or that
your body's gonna be exhaustedthe
Kat (24:11):
day.
It just won't be fun.
Like, the idea is fun, if I'mfatigued and too exhausted,
there's no place to lay down.
There's no place to lay down ata nightclub.
You know what
Val (24:19):
oh, I'll find it.
no, you're right.
That's gross.
No,
Kat (24:24):
Yeah, So you
Val (24:24):
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah So,
Kat (24:26):
know, but that doesn't mean that like, you know, you've had
amazing parties here at yourhome.
It's the same.
Delight and fun.
And it's a smaller group ofpeople and there's couches at
your house, you know what Imean?
And so like, I can organizesomething that I, it will
scratch that itch for me.
Yeah.
And so that's how I've madepeace with the fact that my, my
life is just so much different,you know?
(24:47):
When you have a chronic illness,I think that again, it's we had
that grief episode that wetalked about.
Like there's a lot of stages ofgrief and processing how to Live
Right.
And for me, I was like, I gottamake peace.
cause I couldn't, fight it.
And in, some chronic illnesscircles, people are talking
about fighting and they do itwith cancer too.
Like you fight, fight, fight.
And I'm like, I don't wannafight.
(25:08):
I don't wanna fight on theinside of my fucking body.
Val (25:10):
You know, I, I felt like that with Because there's a lot
of that language In sort of theinfertility as well.
Right.
That you're gonna fight as hardas you can, or you'll endure
anything.
Kat (25:23):
I'm not gonna endure anything.
It's hard.
Oh my God.
My kids they're 10 and 12.
And they sometimes get on thesekicks about like, you know,
watching shit on YouTube.
It's like zombie apocalypse orthrow through.
So like, they're like, mom, whatwould you do if this happened?
You know, like
Val (25:38):
or something?
Yeah.
Kat (25:38):
that.
I was like, I would die.
I would like, first to go I'mnot gonna run these fuckers.
Val (25:45):
and actually it sounds kind good.
Right?
Cuz we watched the walking dead.
It's a terrible existence andit's like 12 seasons in maybe a
early zombie death.
Would've
Kat (25:55):
been.
I have all these like warmfeelings about what happens on
the other side of this life.
So I'm like, yeah.
I mean, cut to the end.
Thank you.
Yes.
You know?
Yeah.
So
Val (26:04):
yeah.
Well, getting to that place ofpeace, I think I had to silence
or not buy into some of thehealthism.
at least in our, culture, again,it goes back to capitalism too,
like that, your health is yourresponsibility.
It's very individual that youhave total control over your
Kat (26:23):
which isn't true
Val (26:23):
is not true.
It's a lie.
If you just try hard enough, youcan heal yourself, you can cure
it.
I, I had a doctor tell me thathumans should not eat apples.
Kat (26:33):
so fuck you, doctor.
Fuck.
Fuck.
Fuck Face fart.
Face, fuck.
Face.
Val (26:40):
started calling him Dr.
Fruits, because he was like,only horses should be eat
apples.
I'm like, fuck you.
Yeah.
I fired him.
Kat (26:47):
Well, that's the other thing, there's this interesting
overlap too.
Right?
So in some of these, chronicillness communities, people are
trying to grab anything they canto sort of heal themselves and
feel better.
Right.
We all would like to feelbetter.
So people wanna really controland hyper control their food in
order to feel better.
I understand the launch behindit.
It does not feel good in mybody.
Yeah.
It feels like fear
Val (27:08):
Well and it feels like something you can do, right.
if there's something I can do,let me try it.
And maybe some of this nervousenergy or the grief, and look,
if apples don't make you feelgood.
I'm not saying, fuck you to, youjust don't eat apples.
It's
Kat (27:21):
OK.
Yeah,
Val (27:22):
but you know, where's room for everything.
But, again, like we talked aboutat the beginning, it's putting
all the blame on the individual.
When, it's so much more complexthan that DNA, your environment,
your trauma, have you heard ofthe ACEs score?
The adverse childhood effects?
ACEs is the acronym for adversechildhood experiences scale,
Kat (27:45):
Right.
And if you have those highnumbers, it just, that's a lot
of trauma that you carry intoyour life.
Val (27:49):
Yeah, they just started to study, why are these certain
people I having such poor healthoutcomes.
And they're linking it back totrauma.
Kat (27:57):
Of course.
Yes of course.
That's when I, like, Idownshift, I'm like, I'm gonna
heal everything on the insideand my emotions.
I, yeah.
And so, and again, but not inlike a RVD way, but in a way of
I'm gonna feel all my feelingsI'm gonna be present with,
what's showing up for me.
I'm not gonna fight.
you know what I mean?
Enjoy love and softness.
And I mean, that's my presentstrategy.
Val (28:16):
Well, look now we're gonna Wade into some muddy territory.
We're ready for
Kat (28:21):
it.
I'm ready.
Are you ready?
Val (28:22):
I'm ready.
You can see it on my
Kat (28:24):
face.
Val (28:25):
But I remember even in the faith community, people telling
me like more of like the, Ooh,the spiritual people, like.
Well, do you wanna get rid ofthis?
You're not healed because youdon't wanna be.
And that just felt I actuallythink now it's abusive to tell
Kat (28:41):
that oh yeah, yeah.
Val (28:43):
And so we have to be careful of what language you use
that might Teeter on that.
not meaning to, and I'm like,well, I don't understand.
Like, I actually feel thisphysical pain.
Kat (28:52):
Right.
Val (28:52):
and then even in, all the woo woo or wellness circles,
it's like, you can heal.
Yeah.
And it's tricky because if we'renervous.
Yeah.
If we have a test, we get,sometimes people get a stomach
ache or if you're stressed,right.
You get a headache.
And so we know that there ismore of a mind, body connection
(29:13):
than we, want Tono acknowledge.
Kat (29:19):
can we, heal?
Yeah, I think this is a profoundquestion to move around because
again, yeah.
Our background includes a lot offaith healing, right.
And then some of my spiritualexploration today includes
circles where people are sayingshit like, you are completely
creating your own reality.
Right.
Mm-hmm and so I hold all thatloosely.
(29:40):
Right.
And yet I want to be open to theidea that we could heal our
bodies.
And that feels scary to say outloud sometimes because I don't
want to be approaching mycuriosity around healing.
With an attitude of ableism.
This is really important to me.
So ableism is this thing in ourculture, just like the other
(30:00):
isms where we demote someone'shuman dignity because of what
they're able to do or not ableto do.
That's the bottom line.
I identify as disabled because Ihave limited mobility at this
point.
And I can't stand or walk verylong without pain.
I, I would love it if I wasn'tin pain.
Sure.
Right.
And so what kind of kindness is,can I offer my body?
(30:21):
So my body's not in such anactivated state or so there's
less inflammation in my body.
you know, and again, I, thinkbecause I, don't want to give
back into like restrictiveeating or these other sort of
things, and I'm a littledisillusioned with traditional
medicine, are my options?
There's the radical acceptanceof this is my reality.
And also if there is.
(30:42):
Room for healing.
I'd like to invite that, but mydignity as a human being in the
world, my value, none of that isdiminished because I don't walk
very far.
Right, right.
So it's a very nuanced kind ofspace to be in, but I, I really
want to be open to whatever.
Good and beautiful thing existsfor us without also saying, oh,
(31:06):
this is for everybody.
And you just need to do a, B andC like no fucking
Val (31:10):
no gurus.
You already established that.
No gurus Well, and I thinkwhenever we say this is me, I
don't wanna be here.
We have to think of the impactfor the people that are still
there.
Right.
So I sent you this book with awas a picture of a person in a
wheelchair with all these likeflowers around it.
And it said, I think it saidlike, I'm not your fucking
prayer request
Kat (31:29):
or something that.
yeah
Val (31:31):
And I just, of course I didn't read the book yet, but I
was like, oh right.
Or even if someone.
I don't wanna be fat anymore.
Mm-hmm like, you've said I don'twant to not, not be fat.
Yeah.
whenever we're identifying witha group and then saying like, I
wish to someone be out of that.
I think that that is where someof the hurt comes in.
Totally right.
With ableism or if, I don'tknow, I'm imagining maybe this
(31:53):
person's also saying that's allthe church sees me as is well,
we gotta get this person healed.
Or imagine if you have likediagnosis that the treatment,
isn't going to take it away.
You're living in reality oflike, this is what I
Kat (32:04):
Right And it's interesting.
So the idea of like quality oflife, that concept is sort of
coming to mind versus likedignity, human dignity.
Right.
And so if we can interact withall human beings and say, we all
have equal human dignity andthen also some of the things
that make my quality of lifechallenging are just because we
live in systems.
(32:25):
keep me marginalized, keep meand my body marginalized.
Cuz most public places don'thave seating that works for me.
Right.
And that's like a system that'ssystemic problems that are
making my quality of lifesmaller.
Right.
Yeah.
Whereas
Val (32:39):
do you know that the New York city subway system yeah.
Has like so few.
Elevators.
cause it's so old and they won'tput the money in.
So you see like women carryingbabies in a stroller, down six
flights of stairs into thesubway.
It's an atrocity.
Very few.
Yeah.
To get into the New York citysubway station.
Yeah.
Do better.
Kat (32:59):
do better.
Yeah.
again, because.
So we don't care about women andchildren in our culture.
and we don't care about peoplethat have any other, you know,
like needs.
Right.
And so we, we don't live in aculture that centers anyone's
needs really?
No, right?
we've taken a very narrow sliceof humanity and says, this is
the bar.
This is how you need to fit in.
And when you don't, then youhave to be like fucking
(33:22):
creative.
Yeah.
You know, and again, I think theheart of it for me is I don't
feel like my value.
as a person is related to thebodyline habit or how much
physical ability I have in any,day or even how much
productivity I have.
That was a lot of work.
That was a lot of work toseparate my value, my dignity
from productivity, from ableismand from healthism.
(33:45):
Right.
a lot of spiritual practiceshave gone into me being at the
place that I am now.
But in this place of being like,I completely accept who I am.
I'm also wanting to say, Heybody, would you like to heal?
Could we be in less pain?
Is there something that needs tobe, looked at or addressed or
like, is it still old trauma?
(34:06):
Is it, this, is it that?
And the answer might be no, Idon't know what the answer is.
I just know that I wannaposition myself where I'm open
to And that feels a littletender.
It feels like a little kind ofscary to say out loud
Val (34:19):
Going back to the systems that we live in, I quit my
full-time job and thankfully,you know, we had the privilege,
the margin for me to take sometime off.
I really got scared.
What if I can't provide formyself anymore?
And our society is not good.
Social security disability it'sbelow poverty level
Kat (34:37):
no, I looked into it too.
It's it?
It was incredibly it'sdemoralizing.
Val (34:43):
So you can't that's the healthism so there's no margin
to be like, oh my body, right.
My body has has this thing now Ineed, to live as well.
But no, we feel like everyonehas to work so hard, with no
grace in there.
So there is just like suchpressure.
Kat (34:59):
right?
Val (35:01):
But I do wonder, is this from emotional pain.
Can we heal it in some way?
Maybe.
Kat (35:10):
I know where we're kind of making these faces.
You guys can't see us.
We're making these faces wherewe're like, I don't know.
Maybe.
And it's interesting that like,you know, I would say Val, that
a lot of the stuff that you andI have talked about on the
podcast has been things thatwe're pretty confident about,
right?
Like, we've like, oh, I learnedthis.
I know that's like, what haveyou learned?
Like, I think this is a, this isa topic where we're actually
we're.
(35:30):
We're actively in real time,exploring with you all our
listeners we're exploring andsort of being willing to push
something against the edges ofwhat we know for sure.
I wanna be open to this.
Yeah.
And I don't wanna live in aclosed kind of way and we're
continuing to grow.
Right?
Like we learn new things.
I don't wanna be stagnant in.
Val (35:48):
Yeah.
I think, cuz it's tricky toothat cuz I think if we're saying
like, you can heal this, thenit's almost like this automatic
blame if you're still
Kat (35:57):
pain Right.
Right.
Yeah.
again, we definitely don't wannabe perpetuating that idea.
No.
But also the, whole idea oflike, Everyone's journey is
completely different and uniqueto themselves.
You know, obviously in the wholelarger, like chronic illness
community, it feels nice to bevalidated oh, I see you, I
understand what you say to me,Val, when you're like, I'm real
tired.
Right.
That makes sense to me.
I know that feels like, whereassomeone who doesn't have those
(36:20):
might not be able to relate thesame way and yet, you know, Your
story is different from someoneelse with fibromyalgia mm-hmm
and then any other person thatmight be listening that has
their own journey with theirbody and whatever, chronic pain
or chronic illness they mighthave.
And so there's dance again, thepush pull of like the individual
and then your, your personalpursuit towards dignity, right?
(36:42):
Yeah.
And then the like curiosity oflike, yes, I'm allowed to exist
as I am.
Now.
I'd like to be open and curiousto see what else is available to
me.
Val (36:51):
Well, and even some of the natural byproducts of the
healing.
Yeah.
Right.
Or divesting from certainthings.
I have a lot less anxiety.
Mm.
Right.
Since sort of divesting from alot of the rules of the Bible,
honestly, like so much anxiety
Kat (37:07):
Right Right.
Yeah
Val (37:08):
Getting healed from the trauma from that.
Right.
I feel such a lightness.
Right, right.
So I used to have my neck.
I would get, I'd try to getmassages as often as I could
(37:28):
just really terrible.
And I noticed that after I leftmy full-time job and now I have
my own practice, but after I gotoutta some of those terrible
Kat (37:39):
right
Val (37:39):
one day, I was like, oh my gosh, I don't have that pain
anymore.
I got different pain, but Idon't have that pain anymore.
So there's people who areexperts in a lot of this stuff,
so maybe we're gonna, who knows,maybe we're gonna seek some of
them out.
Maybe we're gonna try somethings and report back to you on
the podcast about
Kat (37:58):
Totally Like, spiritual modalities interest me so much.
Reiki work.
We've sort of referenced thatbefore.
And when I think about Reiki andthe idea of, them moving around
this energy, it really remindsme of some of the, the stuff
that you and I experienced incharismatic Christian circles.
I wanna carefully hold space forthat being real.
You know what I mean?
You've heard me reference the noguru things.
(38:19):
I don't believe that we cancreate a formula and.
Put it on everyone because, theamount of shame that shows up
You know?
And so that's why I think itneeds to be very individualistic
and led by the individual.
That has to be your decisionfrom a place of where are you
feeling led?
What are you feeling drawntowards?
What are you curious about?
And if it's from a place ofkindness and compassion versus
that other energy that you and Iboth remember valid, like
(38:42):
spinning furious energy oftrying to solve the puzzle, it's
an anxious energy.
Yeah.
Versus curious, open energy,right?
Val (38:51):
It, it does seem hypervigilant.
It does.
And that adds fuel to the firealso that it's our fault.
You know, come down if you wantprayer for healing.
And if it didn't happen, therestill was this undercurrent of
you must not have had enoughfaith.
Because the Bible
Kat (39:06):
that's such a mind.
Fuck.
I'm so sorry.
That happened.
That happened to me too.
Val.
I'm sorry that that happened.
Val (39:11):
sorry.
That happened to you
Kat (39:12):
And I'd say that spiritual abuse that's psychologically
really damaging, right?
Yeah.
I mean, you are the, one of themost determined, like
faith-filled people I know.
Right.
So to be like, you didn't doenough.
You're not enough.
That's what that's saying.
Yeah.
And, and honestly, listeners, wewould never, ever say that you
are enough.
You are enough and I'm enough inthe body and habit right now in
(39:33):
my current level of ability, Iam enough good for me.
And if I could feel better.
Cool.
right.
Yes.
Cool.
Like bonus, as opposed to myvalue is dictated on the fact
that I get better.
Fuck all that.
That's bullshit.
My value is not dictated onanything.
I I'm valuable.
I have dignity.
I have beautiful things to offerthe world right now in this
(39:56):
present day of being.
And also if I feel better, some.
Bonus
Val (40:02):
bonus bonus bonus.
I'm so glad I have you on thisjourney, cat.
Thank you.
And again, back to the meartists who need to get saved.
I remember the first time I sawonline that someone talked
about.
Taking a shower was
Kat (40:19):
Oh my
Val (40:19):
with a chronic illness.
I was just mad at myself why isthis so difficult?
It's like just taking a shower.
You wanna nap after it's soexhausting.
Thankfully, I don't feel that asmuch anymore, but there were
periods of time where, where Idid so just that.
Yeah, me too, that, oh, I'm notalone.
Oh, this is normal for peoplewho have what I have
Kat (40:41):
Valerie.
I put a shower chair in myshower.
And one day I just felt reallystrongly, like I piece about it.
Mm-hmm there's some nice naturallight in my bathroom.
and I did, I'm gonna post it inour Instagram, but like, it's
actually, it's a picture of mein a, you know, very fat body
sitting, holding the showerhead.
Right.
But I felt so much shame aroundthat, that very specific thing.
(41:04):
And again, that's.
when I think about healing, someof it is just like the more free
I am from anything that feelslike shame, then I'm more whole,
you know, mm-hmm And so I did, Imade this piece.
I didn't even post it for a longtime on my art page because it
felt very tender.
This shame was really, reallyhigh there well also, cuz my
body had changed.
(41:24):
You know, my condition'sprogressive.
Right.
And.
I don't have control over thatto my knowledge.
And so when I finally put itout, I had so much feedback from
this particular piece and peoplealso saying, wow, it's so
beautiful.
What if some of the healing isjust, we get to be more and more
free from shame, you know?
And again, you've heard all ofour podcasts, we just reference
(41:44):
this a lot, but like we have allgrown up in a toxic culture.
We've internalized so manymessages that are damaging to
our psyche and yeah, some ofthat's gonna show up in our
body, our body keeps score.
Yeah.
And then maybe my physical bodydoesn't ever change, but like my
experience of freedom absolutelyhas and continues to, I get more
(42:06):
and more free daily and that's acool, fucking beautiful thing.
Val (42:11):
That is beautiful.
so we've been talking a lotabout what we're learning What's
moving around
Kat (42:19):
us.
Val (42:21):
what about what's bringing you pleasure.
Kat (42:22):
Yeah.
Okay, so you probably can relateto this, but living with a
chronic illness, there isnothing as pleasurable as that
moment when your head hits thepillow, it is like you,
everything, everything just it'slike the most beautiful fucking
exhale.
Yeah, it really is.
Val (42:40):
After a long day yesterday, I climbed in my bed for the
first time.
I was like, oh,
Kat (42:44):
Oh shit.
And then for me, the other oneis always water.
Like anytime I can get into abody water, and I notice, like I
try to go to a pool prettyregular, because the pleasure of
being in the pool means thatshowering is Right.
It's not as hard.
Oh.
And so that's interesting.
Like that's my own little likelife hack for myself.
I shower kind of infrequently,but if I can get to the pool,
I'm showering more.
(43:10):
So like floating is so great.
It's such a fucking greatfeeling and like this sensory
pleasure of the water, I justlove it.
It's so good.
Mm-hmm what about you?
Val (43:19):
You know this happened a week or two ago, The humans of
New York, if you aware of theirInstagram, they had a woman.
who had grown up.
I just feel like it was all thebad
Kat (43:29):
stuff, you know?
Yeah.
Val (43:30):
She grew up in like very, very fundamentalist place where
women were not valued.
She had to like, please herhusband.
It was everything her husbandwanted.
And then in this marriage andsomehow she got the courage to
walk
Kat (43:44):
right right
Val (43:45):
And went to New York city with one of her sons.
They have like, you know,millions of followers.
So I'm sure maybe some of youhave already heard this I just
was touched about yes, she gotfree from that had to start all
over again.
Had to trust herself, startedsinging in this pub.
God has like a band togetherand, you know, got this job.
(44:08):
It was all the healing, like asa therapist, I was like, yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Healing with the sons and then Ijust read that they're hooking
up with another person that wason humans of New York in their
pub.
And she's doing like anotherresidency of her one woman show
Kat (44:22):
Oh, my woman show.
Oh my God.
Val (44:23):
one woman show has a wonderful
Kat (44:27):
and wasn't she in her sixties right before she in her
sixties, That's the kicker.
It's never too late.
Val (44:33):
Ugh.
I just like the freedom storythere and the hard earned,
lessons and rebirth.
it just brought me so muchpleasure to read her story.
Kat (44:44):
You know what, I just stuff like that is so beautiful.
We can get free, everybodyMm-hmm we can get free and
sometimes it's not gonna be asdramatic as you have to escape a
marriage and a religion and allthese other things.
But wanna be free Val.
Val (44:56):
Yes.
More freedom,
Kat (44:59):
I love you
Val (45:00):
I love you.
This was good today.
Kat (45:03):
this was good.
Val (45:04):
Even if we're talking about our illnesses.
Fuck.
But it's always good beingtogether.
See you next time.
Kat (45:17):
Like
Val (45:18):
Yep.
Bye.
Bye.
KA.
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
Good
Val (00:34):
morning.
Kat (00:34):
Good morning.
Yeah.
Val (00:36):
What'd you just say
Kat (00:37):
I said we should sing for the people vow.
Val (00:41):
shit.
I just love, I have so manyhumans in my life that are like,
people are just waiting for meto just dazzle them with my
talents and my presence.
I love
Kat (00:51):
It's accurate your talent and your presence is so
Val (00:54):
accurate.
I'm talking about you though.
Kat (00:56):
well, yeah.
Yeah, it's true.
Val (01:00):
we should dazzle the people cat.
Oh my
Kat (01:02):
oh my God.
I was at a pool party yesterdayand someone said the word
kaleidoscope and I wrote themost.
Incredible erotic piece ofpoetry.
Val (01:10):
about aScope what the
Kat (01:13):
no, no, it was just a word in it.
It was just a word in it.
And I was like, oh my God,anyway.
And so I was like, you wannahear a poem?
I wrote.
And they're like, yes, fuck.
And so I was like reading italoud to them.
I was very proud of myself, butthat's really.
funny.
I don't think of myself asalways being like, oh, let me
delight you with my presence.
But I am like that.
I I
Val (01:31):
I, so many of cats sentences start with, I really
don't consider myself this typeof person, but once in a while I
am I think more than once in awhile, cat, sorry to
Kat (01:44):
guys don't know how much, how many hours a day I'm like in
my room, napping, you know, likethat's why, like I have the more
fuller picture.
Ah, yeah
Val (01:52):
I see.
I
Kat (01:53):
see.
in social situations, it's verydifferent.
Val (01:55):
when you come out, you're like, look, I have all this
Kat (01:58):
to give.
Yes.
Yes.
That's
Val (01:59):
hilarious I really want this to go in our book of things
that like cat wrote an eroticpiece of poetry off of the word
kaleidoscope.
That was
Kat (02:09):
the name of the poem.
A kaleidoscope of pleasure wasthe line.
It's
Val (02:12):
The kaleidoscope
Kat (02:13):
a beautiful imagery, right?
It's hot.
Val (02:16):
I, I dunno.
That's like weird body partskind of coming and going I don't
know.
Okay.
Calling
Kat (02:22):
my imagery
Val (02:23):
Sorry.
Sorry.
Sorry.
You're right.
You're right.
I'm an asshole.
Thank you.
Am I the asshole?
Thank you, Reddit.
You're right.
I don't wanna silly yourbeautiful piece of artwork
before I even heard about it.
Speaking of erotica, I, just gotback from San Diego.
We've been reunited.
It feels so good.
And I was like, I only forgotone thing.
It's my strap on ice pack.
Kat (02:46):
I was like, what's happening?
What's happening?
Oh, there you go.
It's a nice pack.
Okay.
Val she's not a prude anymore.
Everybody.
Val (02:53):
friends were also like, oh, I saw strap on, but that was
just like naturally how I wasdescribing to my pickle ball
friends that I have this, it'san ice pack.
Like it's like a belt you wear,you could put it on your back,
strap it on your knee.
But I called it the strap on icepack.
everyone was like, Ooh, all theeyes got big on the pickle ball
(03:15):
court.
It was great.
I do love a little tease once ina while.
Kat (03:19):
Yeah, you do.
Are you kidding me?
Roundup Oh God.
It's
Val (03:23):
that was so great.
So we're reunited again.
I went down to San Diego again,see how my husband refi's twin
one of my best friends.
And I gotta tell ya we did likea night or two of babysitting
again.
Yeah.
And we lost a kid right off thebat
Kat (03:41):
But it's not a baby kid.
It's like a 10 year old kid.
That's okay.
That's not so bad.
That's not so bad you
Val (03:47):
tell me it's okay.
It's okay.
At that age, they're fine
Kat (03:50):
They know phone numbers.
It's all right.
Val (03:52):
and the parents had just gone to the airport and more
like thanks again.
See you in like two days and I'mlike, you guys almost got
recalled.
Okay.
we thought he was taken.
This is where you could tellwe're substitutes.
But he was returned back with astrict warning, the older
brother, you need to text us.
If, if you take the younger
Kat (04:10):
even have a phone.
He has a phone.
It's fine.
Yeah, no, I know that.
That's scary though.
I'm sure
Val (04:15):
it, it was,
Kat (04:16):
I don't mean to make too
Val (04:17):
it was a little scary.
And then I did have, of course,because why not?
There was a pickle balltournament happening, like a.
Gigantic one right down thestreet, walking distance from my
friend's house.
So I'm like I have to play.
So I schemed and I got my,pickleball partner
Kat (04:33):
That's awesome
Val (04:34):
and we won bronze.
We got a little more
Kat (04:37):
congratulations great.
Still
Val (04:38):
So still pickleball
Kat (04:39):
champion.
Val (04:41):
so that was great to have a little cheering section, but as
my, pickle ball partner wasshowing up from the airplane.
Rafi, my husband, Slashed hisfoot on a segue, a runaway segue
ran up his leg, sliced it open.
It was like, imagine a puppet.
Imagine Burton
Kat (04:58):
no I don't want to imagine this
Val (05:02):
So I'm finishing up my therapy sessions in the corner
of my eye in the window, I cansee Murphys going up and down
the driveway.
On a segue and I'm like, dude,
Kat (05:13):
dude, he's such a big kid.
Oh,
Val (05:15):
and then I come out and then the older kid is like TIAL
uncle or feet needs stitches.
Kat (05:20):
What are you talking
Val (05:20):
are you talking about?
And he is like, yeah, there'sher feet on the couch
Kat (05:24):
Oh no,
Val (05:25):
up.
And I'm like, what happened?
Like, I don't know.
And then it was just fascinatingthat my little nephew, he had
already like, Neopore it andlike bandaged it and then
wrapped it.
And then, oh, well that's gonnahurt.
Like, you probably need somemeds.
And he's like, Teva.
I already gave him someibuprofen.
I know like such great
Kat (05:43):
That's awesome
Val (05:44):
know but then he was really cramp.
Style that day.
My because my partner wassupposed to come.
We were supposed to grab somelunch, go get some practice in
cuz I haven't played with her inweeks.
so we're like, okay, fine.
my pickleball partner is a grownadult.
And so she came in and was like,yes, you need to get So we
dropped him off at the closest
Kat (06:06):
God, you dropped him off.
Yes.
Val (06:08):
yes.
We had to go get lunch.
We dropped him off at like theminute clinic, whatever Hopping
along had to feed the childrenyet.
We got lunch and then he wasfinally done and he's texted me,
send one of the boys to hold myhand.
I don't wanna get stitches.
He's never had stitches in hislife.
I'm like, which one do you wantme to send the older or the
(06:29):
younger?
And so he finally was done andwe brought him home but then
Now, you know, my husband doeshave ADHD and you know, this
hyperfocus kind of makes a lotof our life about him.
Kat (06:41):
sure, sure, sure.
Val (06:42):
that's been my work.
You and I have talked aboutthat.
That's been my work settingstrong boundaries with him.
And I mean, I feel like a totalasshole because he cut his foot
open.
Right.
Kat (06:51):
right.
But you had shit going
Val (06:53):
I had shit going on.
Kat (06:55):
and you guys are in charge of these two boys.
It's a lot.
It was very inconvenient.
If you were fi.
To injure yourself in a fuckingsegue
Val (07:03):
not the right timing, wear shoes.
He was in his sandals.
Like any good Brazilian
Kat (07:08):
Oh
Val (07:08):
Yeah, so on Sunday, we had tickets to this concert and a
reservations for dinner.
So I had to be a pickleballchampion, go wash my hair.
Cause it was very sweaty.
And then Ravi's like, well, youknow, I need a shower too.
Now, granted, I gave him asponge bath the day before.
He is so excited about that.
Cause he just wants all theattention and all the babying.
(07:30):
He wants to be a baby again.
Yeah, I know.
I
Kat (07:33):
I know.
Val (07:35):
He's like, no, no, I need, I need a shower.
And I was so proud of myselfthat I'm like, look, I can't go
to a nice dinner and a concertwith, Sweaty hair
Kat (07:43):
at you advocating for your own needs.
I
Val (07:45):
you advocating for your own needs.
I know it's hard sometimes.
And good for AFE.
If you listen to the earlierepisodes he's doing just enough.
Yeah.
80 20 around
Kat (07:52):
him around and
Val (07:53):
keep him around.
And so he is like, no, no, it'sokay, babe.
I understand you go take care ofyour stuff.
Bob, I'm just gonna take ashower.
I'm like, how are you not gonnabe able to take a shower without
my help?
He's like, don't worry about me.
I'm like, all right.
So I go about my business and weshould post the picture because
Kat (08:07):
I really want
Val (08:08):
He's laying in the bathtub at a very awkward angle.
with his,
Kat (08:13):
foot
Val (08:14):
with his.
Kat (08:14):
dangling his foot dangling.
Val (08:15):
foot's dangling.
I think I said it to you.
And I'm like, tell me how you'renot gonna need my help, but to
get out of this position, didhe,
Kat (08:22):
Did he, did he need help?
Of course he
Val (08:26):
course he did cat.
And of course I helped him.
Oh, and then he had to get on a,plane to Amster them.
Oh my God.
Like two days later
Kat (08:34):
work stuff while
Val (08:35):
work.
Yeah.
He, they had a ton of meetings,like all over Europe and he had
to go
Kat (08:40):
oh God, bye buddy
Val (08:41):
Is it wrong?
When I was like, okay.
Someone else's problem for aminute.
I know I'm terrible.
I'm terrible.
But you guys don't
Kat (08:50):
understand.
You not
Val (08:52):
You do not understand the high maintenance I think I might
have said this before.
One of the, one of the guys atpickle ball was like RAI got
injured again and he's like,wow, RAI gets hurt really
easily.
And I was like, look, he'sreally nice to look at, but he's
very fragile.
(09:12):
Oh cat Good and then I stayed anextra week.
Kat (09:16):
Yes you did.
And I was, I was okay with.
That's just, I know,
Val (09:20):
that's just about how she handled the folks I knew, but
she's taught me to centeryourself.
So she has to be okay with it.
Yeah.
They were like, why?
Well, you can, like, you canwork from here.
Why go home to an empty house?
I can't really argue with
Kat (09:34):
that.
Right Absolutely.
Val (09:35):
So here we are.
Kat (09:36):
They have a pool.
Val (09:37):
Yeah, Well I did a little, healing in the hot tub.
Kat (09:40):
Ooh.
Yeah.
Val (09:41):
hot tub.
Me and my amiga We haven't donethat in a long time.
Yeah, the healing flowed.
It was beautiful.
Kat (09:48):
love that.
It
Val (09:49):
beautiful.
Kat (09:50):
I love that.
Like, relationships can be likeso safe and so intimate that
like, the stars just sort ofmagically align and Oh, I can
tell this is like a big moment.
We're together and we'reprocessing through some big
stuff.
And like healing happens.
You know, we just had an episodeabout how we need one another
and like, transformation andlike shifts can happen.
And I just love that.
I all the stars align for thatto happen.
Val (10:11):
Thank you.
And it happened a couple monthsago with another friend, just
talking to me on the phone.
And I was like, wait, why can Ijust ask a question?
And then it was.
Oh, I feel it like mm-hmm
Kat (10:22):
Mm-hmm
Val (10:22):
something's ripping open and those moments, I do feel
like a vessel.
This is an ordained healingmoment.
Like, let it just happen.
Kat (10:29):
Oh, that's so beautiful.
Val (10:31):
Therapy's funny, right?
to be a stranger.
a caring, safe stranger,
Kat (10:35):
Yeah.
Right.
Val (10:36):
but then also it feels good obviously I'm not doing therapy
with them, but like thesehealing moments that
Kat (10:41):
Happen Yeah
Val (10:43):
be able to do it for the people you love is of course
Kat (10:45):
I have moments like that with my, humans that I'm close
with too, it's the overflow ofbeing, a healer in the world,
you know?
Yeah.
And like this neat convergenceof all of the things we've
learned along the way, like allyour knowledge about therapy and
whatnot, but also the spiritualright to like, feel the energy
and be like, oh, this person isready for their breakthrough or
oh, I need to ask this question.
I just.
Push on this one little spot.
(11:06):
Cause I think it's ready togive.
Oh, that's beautiful.
I'm getting chills.
Just talking
Val (11:11):
about, I know.
It's so good.
Kat (11:12):
I like that we can mix all the things, I talk about my own
spiritual journey being quiteeclectic, you know?
Yeah.
But there is a lot of actualknowledge in there too, all of
my knowledge of therapy andinjustice stuff.
There's.
Much complexity that goes intobeing a human being in the
Val (11:27):
Oh how do any of us get get by
Kat (11:30):
I know, I know somehow with the help of our friends,
Val (11:34):
do.
Aw, we do with the help of ourfriends.
Kat (11:38):
Exactly.
Yeah.
yeah
Val (11:41):
to commercial before we get today's topic?
Kat (11:43):
we have a fun topic for you all.
No, I mean, them saying a littlecheeky we're gonna talk about
our personal experiences livingwith chronic illnesses and how
it's shaped us and impacted ourlife.
And
Val (11:54):
and I will say if you do not have a chronic illness, I
mean, we're a fun ride anyway.
Kat (12:00):
yeah.
We're
Val (12:02):
I said, Jeff, that was a
Kat (12:03):
was, I know, I know said Joe, I slim dunked
Val (12:05):
that's right That's right.
I bet you know, someone yeah.
That suffers from somethingthat's chronic yeah.
And affects their life.
And I think that.
Whew.
It's just a different animal.
So I think you could alsobenefit from hearing a little
bit about that too, for thepeople you in your life
Kat (12:21):
as well?
Absolutely.
We'll be right back, everybody.
Val (12:24):
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Val (13:20):
All right.
We're back.
Thanks for listening to ourcommercials.
Please support us.
Yeah, please pass our infoaround other people.
Kat (13:31):
looked at some statistics.
Will you just tell us the goodnews?
Val (13:35):
Well, yeah, I mean it says nearly half of Americans have
some sort of chronic illness.
And 96% of the chronic illnessesare invisible illnesses.
Kat (13:47):
That is such a huge fucking number.
Val (13:49):
And, you know, if you listen to our jingle, that's one
of our shared sort ofexperiences is that we both have
chronic illness and we've talkeda lot over the years about the
ways in which it has affectedour lives.
And how do humans get along inthis world by finding others to
commiserate and say, yeah, me
Kat (14:06):
right Yeah.
And validate your experiencesand
Val (14:09):
I've been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which I, sometimes
I feel like one doctor told meit's kind of a catchall they had
to make sure it wasn't lupus,that wasn't a brain tumor.
You know, some other things andthat maybe a lot of people who
are diagnosed with it.
There's lots of different thingsin there that maybe are, are
different.
but I mean, I was diagnosed whenI was in college.
(14:30):
I just had chronic headaches andfatigue.
And I remember telling myparents that we grew up in a
household where like there wasno money to go to the doctor
Kat (14:39):
mm-hmm
Val (14:39):
So you had to be really sick to go to the doctor.
And I was like, look, if, ifafter the summer these
headaches, aren't better.
I have to go.
And then yeah, in college, backthen, it was like, I a
rheumatologist And went throughthat process.
Mm-hmm but there was a pointwhere I thought I might have to
drop outta college or take a
Kat (14:57):
Oh
Val (14:57):
cuz I couldn't focus on writing papers And before that I
was, I, I probably was running alittle high the engine was
running a little high.
I was, you know, burning thecandle at both ends and then it
was wow.
I, I'd never feel good.
And So, that's been most of mylife, to be living with that.
(15:17):
And it's, one of the ones thatis an invisible illness.
So I even had a friend joke,like I did take one medical
leave once and they were like,oh, it's really great to have a,
illness that's invisible anddoesn't really affect you, but
you get time off.
And he was saying it in a jokingway.
Yeah.
Well, no, it's not fun.
Actually.
Well's sound
Kat (15:37):
I know wasn't stuff.
Fun to not feel good for likelarge portions of your
Val (15:42):
and like visible illnesses.
Aren't fun either.
None of it is
Kat (15:47):
fun,
Val (15:47):
but it is this weird dissonance.
We've been talking a lot aboutdissonance because right.
I show up to the pickleballcourt and like, I'm carrying.
The toll it takes on my body orhow much is gonna hurt me the
next day or how I'm preparing mystrap on ice pack.
and then it's weird that like,it's not that you really want
know, but then it feelsdissonant.
(16:09):
Yeah.
That nobody knows.
Kat (16:11):
Right.
Val (16:11):
How much extra it takes you.
Yeah.
But then we've been told in ourculture, like yeah, no bootstrap
it and all that stuff.
Right.
Oh, the pickle ball tournament,helping RFI out of the shower,
dinner a concert.
Kat (16:24):
That's a lot.
It makes me tired.
Sometimes you tell me about youdo on vacation
Val (16:29):
and then you know, there was a point and this used to
happened to me a lot.
When I was younger, so here,here's the biggest thing,
friends.
If you have someone in your lifewho has a chronic illness and
they say, they're tired, please.
Don't say yame Because, and weneed a new word because it's not
the same tired.
Kat (16:45):
No.
Val (16:46):
it's this all encompassing draining of your, energy, your
life force.
Kat (16:52):
what it feels like
Val (16:53):
it feels like.
It's like, Ooh.
And you just fall into a slump.
So when I was younger, I didthis a lot.
I would, I would lay on thefloor no matter where I was,
because it was like batteryover, like your phone is dead.
Kat (17:05):
Yeah.
Val (17:05):
And I would lay on the floor in like sometimes in gross
places.
So that was the first time in avery long time.
I've gotten better at pacingmyself.
We were at a concert hall andsome people left and I looked at
the row behind us.
I was like, I could lay on thatfloor cuz my whole body then
also gets antsy and restlesslike restless leg syndrome.
And so then we got home andwe're trying to like hang out
(17:27):
and then, and P is like havingto get ready for the next
morning to go on this trip.
Right.
And he needed a banded shade andlike, sorry guys.
I I'm like I've hit a wall.
I have to go sleep right now.
And I'm like, thank you so much.
Last night I just hit a wall andmy body gave out and they were
like, well, all of our bodiesdid.
Well, but I mean, I was likegonna sleep on the floor.
(17:48):
in the concert you can't explain
Kat (17:50):
qualify that and you feel, like you're bad, right
Val (17:53):
oh, well you were tired.
You went to bed.
I'm like, no, you don'tunderstand.
Like, I, I couldn't existanymore.
It hurt to be awake.
Kat (17:59):
Yes.
Oh, and for me what happens?
it's not always the awake part.
It's like, I need my head to belaying down immediately.
Like, there's something aboutlike, The amount of fatigue that
I experience.
if I'm upright for too long, Ijust am like desperate to be
laying down again.
It's like, my head needs to beparallel to the earth instead of
Val (18:17):
yeah.
Kat (18:18):
Yeah.
And then, so my story is, Ididn't know that I had a chronic
illness my whole life, and Iwasn't diagnosed with ADHD
either.
And so I spent most of my lateteens and twenties, kind of.
Hyper focused on like all of mymasking skills mm-hmm right.
How to be good in the worldview.
We were a part of.
And and also you.
(18:39):
I was good at it.
Like, I was good at being apastor.
Right.
But it was very relationaldriven and then I would hit a
wall too.
And it would be funny, like bythe time I was the campus
pastor, I was like hanging outwith all my students who were
doing an event or something.
It started to be like this funnyjoke where all the sudden I
would just get up whatever I wasdoing.
We were all hanging out togetherdoing some activity and it'd be
late enough.
I'd.
I'm out and I just would leave.
(19:00):
And I started feeling this funnyjoke over and thought it was so
funny, but it was an abrupt hita wall.
And then there's no option.
You can't linger
Val (19:07):
no.
I did the same thing too, whichI found out is called an Irish
goodbye.
I, I didn't know.
And I'm part Irish but they, wewould have all the worship team
at our house.
And I didn't like saying goodbyecause everyone's like, no,
Kat (19:19):
Right It's a whole big
Val (19:20):
So I would just sneak away.
And so they would tease me like,oh, Val, just like abandon us
again.
Kat (19:25):
I would just wave by, by him out.
I'm gonna go.
Yeah, so I had had two childrenand I was experiencing some
postpartum depression is what Ithought.
And so I was at the doctortrying to get treated with that.
And then another little whilegoes by, and I I'm listening to
an NPR piece and someone'sdiscussing Chronic illness
called lip edema.
And that's the name of what Ihave.
(19:46):
And so mine is both invisibleand visible in that it's
considered a fat disorder.
And so there are like disease tofat cells that are all over my
body that are actually kind ofpainful and they continue to
accumulate and it's not relatedto caloric intake or daily
movement.
And so it's such a strangeexperience to be like human
(20:06):
beings can witness me out in theworld.
See a large bodied person.
And and then there's the, thestigma that comes along with
just living in a fat body.
Right.
But then also then the ideathat, oh, I'm lazy, right.
Was just something, it was sucha battle.
Right Wow.
And I don't live in that spaceanymore.
Like it was, helpful in someways to have the diagnosis, but
(20:27):
in other ways I was like, Ooh, Ididn't really want that to be
part of my identity.
You know, I liked knowing thatmy body was strong.
So my body's like, you haveheard you say it too, like your
body's both strong and weak,right?
Like physically I can lift heavythings, but my stamina on my
energy level, it's like yourfeet fall out from underneath
you sometimes.
Right.
That's fascinating to live inthat constant tension.
(20:51):
Right.
Val (20:52):
right?
It is.
I think there's a lot of grief,you and I have talked about the
grief of living with a chronicillness and it's the diminished
capacity.
It's cuz it's also and like,well I just can't do what I used
to.
And then there's so much of theinternal dialogue and, well,
could I, could I press myself?
What's the sweet spot.
(21:13):
It's this it invisible fight,and, then the other is.
What's wrong with me and couldI, will this work, the new thing
and people, so like, makes metired about, well, well, meaning
people who are like, have youtried this?
Have you tried that?
And being hypervigilant aboutyour body and the cues and the
(21:35):
new pains?
Oh my gosh.
I, I mean, I had COVID 700 timesin the last two and a half years
in my mind,
Kat (21:43):
oh, my body hurts.
Is this COVID is this chronic
Val (21:45):
illness It takes up so much dialogue again for
Kat (21:47):
myself You didn't really have COVID at any times.
No.
Yeah
Val (21:50):
have it any times.
I think I might have once ortwice for real, for real, like
in the early days.
But again, it could have beenchronic illness.
But this hypervigilance on allyour symptoms and having to just
kind of.
Shut that off when it's nothelpful.
Kat (22:05):
I noticed that I was getting real fatigued.
This is like a few years ago nowthat I was like, I can't the
hyper focus you're talkingabout.
I can't do it anymore.
I the mental gymnastics oftrying to fit the puzzle
together.
Right.
I can't solve the puzzle.
And then that's where I startedreally embracing like again, the
radical acceptance.
Yeah.
Right.
Of like, okay, well, this is myreality.
That's the only way to getthrough the day is to lay down
(22:27):
enough.
And then I started justorganizing my life in a way that
I could do that, you know, andit wasn.
Clean.
It was messy.
It was messy to get to thatpart.
You know what I mean?
But I didn't have any otheroption in my mind cuz I just,
you've referenced it too withthe yo-yo dieting thing.
You're like, I can't do thisanymore.
I gotta get off this fuckingride.
And that's how it felt for metrying to solve the puzzle of
(22:47):
what can I do?
How can.
Adjust something.
So I'll finally feel betteragain.
And I think what we're dealingwith is the, belief that's
perpetuated out there, thatthere is some magic.
formula Right And that's what wewanna believe, but I don't think
it's a belief that serves me.
And so what serves me more islike, this is the reality I live
with and I gotta find a way tomake peace with it.
(23:08):
And even just now you're talkingabout like the fight and I'm
like, I don't like any languageabout fight or war or none of
that feels good in my body.
And so I'm like, I just have tomake peace with this.
And so softness is my way ofcoping
Val (23:20):
all
Kat (23:20):
the things.
And I don't do shit and I missout on stuff and I like gave up
on FOMO.
I don't have FOMO anymorebecause I.
I do shit that I wanna do, andit's a lot less than I used to
do.
And that's all I can do.
You know, most of my favoritethings that I do are pool
related, you know what I mean?
like, and that's really, reallyfun for me.
(23:40):
It's a real high like win,right?
But my same group of friendsthat had the fun pool party with
me went to an awesome fun partyin San Francisco during pride
weekend and partied at a clubfor hours.
And I didn't go, This is doesn'tfit, doesn't work.
Val (23:55):
Do you still feel grief over that?
A sadness?
Kat (23:58):
I mean a little bit, but it kind of passes through sometimes
it does sound fun and if there'ssomething I really, really want
to do, I can find a way to scaleit back.
Val (24:06):
And or you know, that you're gonna pay for it, or that
your body's gonna be exhaustedthe
Kat (24:11):
day.
It just won't be fun.
Like, the idea is fun, if I'mfatigued and too exhausted,
there's no place to lay down.
There's no place to lay down ata nightclub.
You know what
Val (24:19):
oh, I'll find it.
no, you're right.
That's gross.
No,
Kat (24:24):
Yeah, So you
Val (24:24):
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah So,
Kat (24:26):
know, but that doesn't mean that like, you know, you've had
amazing parties here at yourhome.
It's the same.
Delight and fun.
And it's a smaller group ofpeople and there's couches at
your house, you know what Imean?
And so like, I can organizesomething that I, it will
scratch that itch for me.
Yeah.
And so that's how I've madepeace with the fact that my, my
life is just so much different,you know?
(24:47):
When you have a chronic illness,I think that again, it's we had
that grief episode that wetalked about.
Like there's a lot of stages ofgrief and processing how to Live
Right.
And for me, I was like, I gottamake peace.
cause I couldn't, fight it.
And in, some chronic illnesscircles, people are talking
about fighting and they do itwith cancer too.
Like you fight, fight, fight.
And I'm like, I don't wannafight.
(25:08):
I don't wanna fight on theinside of my fucking body.
Val (25:10):
You know, I, I felt like that with Because there's a lot
of that language In sort of theinfertility as well.
Right.
That you're gonna fight as hardas you can, or you'll endure
anything.
Kat (25:23):
I'm not gonna endure anything.
It's hard.
Oh my God.
My kids they're 10 and 12.
And they sometimes get on thesekicks about like, you know,
watching shit on YouTube.
It's like zombie apocalypse orthrow through.
So like, they're like, mom, whatwould you do if this happened?
You know, like
Val (25:38):
or something?
Yeah.
Kat (25:38):
that.
I was like, I would die.
I would like, first to go I'mnot gonna run these fuckers.
Val (25:45):
and actually it sounds kind good.
Right?
Cuz we watched the walking dead.
It's a terrible existence andit's like 12 seasons in maybe a
early zombie death.
Would've
Kat (25:55):
been.
I have all these like warmfeelings about what happens on
the other side of this life.
So I'm like, yeah.
I mean, cut to the end.
Thank you.
Yes.
You know?
Yeah.
So
Val (26:04):
yeah.
Well, getting to that place ofpeace, I think I had to silence
or not buy into some of thehealthism.
at least in our, culture, again,it goes back to capitalism too,
like that, your health is yourresponsibility.
It's very individual that youhave total control over your
Kat (26:23):
which isn't true
Val (26:23):
is not true.
It's a lie.
If you just try hard enough, youcan heal yourself, you can cure
it.
I, I had a doctor tell me thathumans should not eat apples.
Kat (26:33):
so fuck you, doctor.
Fuck.
Fuck.
Fuck Face fart.
Face, fuck.
Face.
Val (26:40):
started calling him Dr.
Fruits, because he was like,only horses should be eat
apples.
I'm like, fuck you.
Yeah.
I fired him.
Kat (26:47):
Well, that's the other thing, there's this interesting
overlap too.
Right?
So in some of these, chronicillness communities, people are
trying to grab anything they canto sort of heal themselves and
feel better.
Right.
We all would like to feelbetter.
So people wanna really controland hyper control their food in
order to feel better.
I understand the launch behindit.
It does not feel good in mybody.
Yeah.
It feels like fear
Val (27:08):
Well and it feels like something you can do, right.
if there's something I can do,let me try it.
And maybe some of this nervousenergy or the grief, and look,
if apples don't make you feelgood.
I'm not saying, fuck you to, youjust don't eat apples.
It's
Kat (27:21):
OK.
Yeah,
Val (27:22):
but you know, where's room for everything.
But, again, like we talked aboutat the beginning, it's putting
all the blame on the individual.
When, it's so much more complexthan that DNA, your environment,
your trauma, have you heard ofthe ACEs score?
The adverse childhood effects?
ACEs is the acronym for adversechildhood experiences scale,
Kat (27:45):
Right.
And if you have those highnumbers, it just, that's a lot
of trauma that you carry intoyour life.
Val (27:49):
Yeah, they just started to study, why are these certain
people I having such poor healthoutcomes.
And they're linking it back totrauma.
Kat (27:57):
Of course.
Yes of course.
That's when I, like, Idownshift, I'm like, I'm gonna
heal everything on the insideand my emotions.
I, yeah.
And so, and again, but not inlike a RVD way, but in a way of
I'm gonna feel all my feelingsI'm gonna be present with,
what's showing up for me.
I'm not gonna fight.
you know what I mean?
Enjoy love and softness.
And I mean, that's my presentstrategy.
Val (28:16):
Well, look now we're gonna Wade into some muddy territory.
We're ready for
Kat (28:21):
it.
I'm ready.
Are you ready?
Val (28:22):
I'm ready.
You can see it on my
Kat (28:24):
face.
Val (28:25):
But I remember even in the faith community, people telling
me like more of like the, Ooh,the spiritual people, like.
Well, do you wanna get rid ofthis?
You're not healed because youdon't wanna be.
And that just felt I actuallythink now it's abusive to tell
Kat (28:41):
that oh yeah, yeah.
Val (28:43):
And so we have to be careful of what language you use
that might Teeter on that.
not meaning to, and I'm like,well, I don't understand.
Like, I actually feel thisphysical pain.
Kat (28:52):
Right.
Val (28:52):
and then even in, all the woo woo or wellness circles,
it's like, you can heal.
Yeah.
And it's tricky because if we'renervous.
Yeah.
If we have a test, we get,sometimes people get a stomach
ache or if you're stressed,right.
You get a headache.
And so we know that there ismore of a mind, body connection
(29:13):
than we, want Tono acknowledge.
Kat (29:19):
can we, heal?
Yeah, I think this is a profoundquestion to move around because
again, yeah.
Our background includes a lot offaith healing, right.
And then some of my spiritualexploration today includes
circles where people are sayingshit like, you are completely
creating your own reality.
Right.
Mm-hmm and so I hold all thatloosely.
(29:40):
Right.
And yet I want to be open to theidea that we could heal our
bodies.
And that feels scary to say outloud sometimes because I don't
want to be approaching mycuriosity around healing.
With an attitude of ableism.
This is really important to me.
So ableism is this thing in ourculture, just like the other
(30:00):
isms where we demote someone'shuman dignity because of what
they're able to do or not ableto do.
That's the bottom line.
I identify as disabled because Ihave limited mobility at this
point.
And I can't stand or walk verylong without pain.
I, I would love it if I wasn'tin pain.
Sure.
Right.
And so what kind of kindness is,can I offer my body?
(30:21):
So my body's not in such anactivated state or so there's
less inflammation in my body.
you know, and again, I, thinkbecause I, don't want to give
back into like restrictiveeating or these other sort of
things, and I'm a littledisillusioned with traditional
medicine, are my options?
There's the radical acceptanceof this is my reality.
And also if there is.
(30:42):
Room for healing.
I'd like to invite that, but mydignity as a human being in the
world, my value, none of that isdiminished because I don't walk
very far.
Right, right.
So it's a very nuanced kind ofspace to be in, but I, I really
want to be open to whatever.
Good and beautiful thing existsfor us without also saying, oh,
(31:06):
this is for everybody.
And you just need to do a, B andC like no fucking
Val (31:10):
no gurus.
You already established that.
No gurus Well, and I thinkwhenever we say this is me, I
don't wanna be here.
We have to think of the impactfor the people that are still
there.
Right.
So I sent you this book with awas a picture of a person in a
wheelchair with all these likeflowers around it.
And it said, I think it saidlike, I'm not your fucking
prayer request
Kat (31:29):
or something that.
yeah
Val (31:31):
And I just, of course I didn't read the book yet, but I
was like, oh right.
Or even if someone.
I don't wanna be fat anymore.
Mm-hmm like, you've said I don'twant to not, not be fat.
Yeah.
whenever we're identifying witha group and then saying like, I
wish to someone be out of that.
I think that that is where someof the hurt comes in.
Totally right.
With ableism or if, I don'tknow, I'm imagining maybe this
(31:53):
person's also saying that's allthe church sees me as is well,
we gotta get this person healed.
Or imagine if you have likediagnosis that the treatment,
isn't going to take it away.
You're living in reality oflike, this is what I
Kat (32:04):
Right And it's interesting.
So the idea of like quality oflife, that concept is sort of
coming to mind versus likedignity, human dignity.
Right.
And so if we can interact withall human beings and say, we all
have equal human dignity andthen also some of the things
that make my quality of lifechallenging are just because we
live in systems.
(32:25):
keep me marginalized, keep meand my body marginalized.
Cuz most public places don'thave seating that works for me.
Right.
And that's like a system that'ssystemic problems that are
making my quality of lifesmaller.
Right.
Yeah.
Whereas
Val (32:39):
do you know that the New York city subway system yeah.
Has like so few.
Elevators.
cause it's so old and they won'tput the money in.
So you see like women carryingbabies in a stroller, down six
flights of stairs into thesubway.
It's an atrocity.
Very few.
Yeah.
To get into the New York citysubway station.
Yeah.
Do better.
Kat (32:59):
do better.
Yeah.
again, because.
So we don't care about women andchildren in our culture.
and we don't care about peoplethat have any other, you know,
like needs.
Right.
And so we, we don't live in aculture that centers anyone's
needs really?
No, right?
we've taken a very narrow sliceof humanity and says, this is
the bar.
This is how you need to fit in.
And when you don't, then youhave to be like fucking
(33:22):
creative.
Yeah.
You know, and again, I think theheart of it for me is I don't
feel like my value.
as a person is related to thebodyline habit or how much
physical ability I have in any,day or even how much
productivity I have.
That was a lot of work.
That was a lot of work toseparate my value, my dignity
from productivity, from ableismand from healthism.
(33:45):
Right.
a lot of spiritual practiceshave gone into me being at the
place that I am now.
But in this place of being like,I completely accept who I am.
I'm also wanting to say, Heybody, would you like to heal?
Could we be in less pain?
Is there something that needs tobe, looked at or addressed or
like, is it still old trauma?
(34:06):
Is it, this, is it that?
And the answer might be no, Idon't know what the answer is.
I just know that I wannaposition myself where I'm open
to And that feels a littletender.
It feels like a little kind ofscary to say out loud
Val (34:19):
Going back to the systems that we live in, I quit my
full-time job and thankfully,you know, we had the privilege,
the margin for me to take sometime off.
I really got scared.
What if I can't provide formyself anymore?
And our society is not good.
Social security disability it'sbelow poverty level
Kat (34:37):
no, I looked into it too.
It's it?
It was incredibly it'sdemoralizing.
Val (34:43):
So you can't that's the healthism so there's no margin
to be like, oh my body, right.
My body has has this thing now Ineed, to live as well.
But no, we feel like everyonehas to work so hard, with no
grace in there.
So there is just like suchpressure.
Kat (34:59):
right?
Val (35:01):
But I do wonder, is this from emotional pain.
Can we heal it in some way?
Maybe.
Kat (35:10):
I know where we're kind of making these faces.
You guys can't see us.
We're making these faces wherewe're like, I don't know.
Maybe.
And it's interesting that like,you know, I would say Val, that
a lot of the stuff that you andI have talked about on the
podcast has been things thatwe're pretty confident about,
right?
Like, we've like, oh, I learnedthis.
I know that's like, what haveyou learned?
Like, I think this is a, this isa topic where we're actually
we're.
(35:30):
We're actively in real time,exploring with you all our
listeners we're exploring andsort of being willing to push
something against the edges ofwhat we know for sure.
I wanna be open to this.
Yeah.
And I don't wanna live in aclosed kind of way and we're
continuing to grow.
Right?
Like we learn new things.
I don't wanna be stagnant in.
Val (35:48):
Yeah.
I think, cuz it's tricky toothat cuz I think if we're saying
like, you can heal this, thenit's almost like this automatic
blame if you're still
Kat (35:57):
pain Right.
Right.
Yeah.
again, we definitely don't wannabe perpetuating that idea.
No.
But also the, whole idea oflike, Everyone's journey is
completely different and uniqueto themselves.
You know, obviously in the wholelarger, like chronic illness
community, it feels nice to bevalidated oh, I see you, I
understand what you say to me,Val, when you're like, I'm real
tired.
Right.
That makes sense to me.
I know that feels like, whereassomeone who doesn't have those
(36:20):
might not be able to relate thesame way and yet, you know, Your
story is different from someoneelse with fibromyalgia mm-hmm
and then any other person thatmight be listening that has
their own journey with theirbody and whatever, chronic pain
or chronic illness they mighthave.
And so there's dance again, thepush pull of like the individual
and then your, your personalpursuit towards dignity, right?
(36:42):
Yeah.
And then the like curiosity oflike, yes, I'm allowed to exist
as I am.
Now.
I'd like to be open and curiousto see what else is available to
me.
Val (36:51):
Well, and even some of the natural byproducts of the
healing.
Yeah.
Right.
Or divesting from certainthings.
I have a lot less anxiety.
Mm.
Right.
Since sort of divesting from alot of the rules of the Bible,
honestly, like so much anxiety
Kat (37:07):
Right Right.
Yeah
Val (37:08):
Getting healed from the trauma from that.
Right.
I feel such a lightness.
Right, right.
So I used to have my neck.
I would get, I'd try to getmassages as often as I could
(37:28):
just really terrible.
And I noticed that after I leftmy full-time job and now I have
my own practice, but after I gotoutta some of those terrible
Kat (37:39):
right
Val (37:39):
one day, I was like, oh my gosh, I don't have that pain
anymore.
I got different pain, but Idon't have that pain anymore.
So there's people who areexperts in a lot of this stuff,
so maybe we're gonna, who knows,maybe we're gonna seek some of
them out.
Maybe we're gonna try somethings and report back to you on
the podcast about
Kat (37:58):
Totally Like, spiritual modalities interest me so much.
Reiki work.
We've sort of referenced thatbefore.
And when I think about Reiki andthe idea of, them moving around
this energy, it really remindsme of some of the, the stuff
that you and I experienced incharismatic Christian circles.
I wanna carefully hold space forthat being real.
You know what I mean?
You've heard me reference the noguru things.
(38:19):
I don't believe that we cancreate a formula and.
Put it on everyone because, theamount of shame that shows up
You know?
And so that's why I think itneeds to be very individualistic
and led by the individual.
That has to be your decisionfrom a place of where are you
feeling led?
What are you feeling drawntowards?
What are you curious about?
And if it's from a place ofkindness and compassion versus
that other energy that you and Iboth remember valid, like
(38:42):
spinning furious energy oftrying to solve the puzzle, it's
an anxious energy.
Yeah.
Versus curious, open energy,right?
Val (38:51):
It, it does seem hypervigilant.
It does.
And that adds fuel to the firealso that it's our fault.
You know, come down if you wantprayer for healing.
And if it didn't happen, therestill was this undercurrent of
you must not have had enoughfaith.
Because the Bible
Kat (39:06):
that's such a mind.
Fuck.
I'm so sorry.
That happened.
That happened to me too.
Val.
I'm sorry that that happened.
Val (39:11):
sorry.
That happened to you
Kat (39:12):
And I'd say that spiritual abuse that's psychologically
really damaging, right?
Yeah.
I mean, you are the, one of themost determined, like
faith-filled people I know.
Right.
So to be like, you didn't doenough.
You're not enough.
That's what that's saying.
Yeah.
And, and honestly, listeners, wewould never, ever say that you
are enough.
You are enough and I'm enough inthe body and habit right now in
(39:33):
my current level of ability, Iam enough good for me.
And if I could feel better.
Cool.
right.
Yes.
Cool.
Like bonus, as opposed to myvalue is dictated on the fact
that I get better.
Fuck all that.
That's bullshit.
My value is not dictated onanything.
I I'm valuable.
I have dignity.
I have beautiful things to offerthe world right now in this
(39:56):
present day of being.
And also if I feel better, some.
Bonus
Val (40:02):
bonus bonus bonus.
I'm so glad I have you on thisjourney, cat.
Thank you.
And again, back to the meartists who need to get saved.
I remember the first time I sawonline that someone talked
about.
Taking a shower was
Kat (40:19):
Oh my
Val (40:19):
with a chronic illness.
I was just mad at myself why isthis so difficult?
It's like just taking a shower.
You wanna nap after it's soexhausting.
Thankfully, I don't feel that asmuch anymore, but there were
periods of time where, where Idid so just that.
Yeah, me too, that, oh, I'm notalone.
Oh, this is normal for peoplewho have what I have
Kat (40:41):
Valerie.
I put a shower chair in myshower.
And one day I just felt reallystrongly, like I piece about it.
Mm-hmm there's some nice naturallight in my bathroom.
and I did, I'm gonna post it inour Instagram, but like, it's
actually, it's a picture of mein a, you know, very fat body
sitting, holding the showerhead.
Right.
But I felt so much shame aroundthat, that very specific thing.
(41:04):
And again, that's.
when I think about healing, someof it is just like the more free
I am from anything that feelslike shame, then I'm more whole,
you know, mm-hmm And so I did, Imade this piece.
I didn't even post it for a longtime on my art page because it
felt very tender.
This shame was really, reallyhigh there well also, cuz my
body had changed.
(41:24):
You know, my condition'sprogressive.
Right.
And.
I don't have control over thatto my knowledge.
And so when I finally put itout, I had so much feedback from
this particular piece and peoplealso saying, wow, it's so
beautiful.
What if some of the healing isjust, we get to be more and more
free from shame, you know?
And again, you've heard all ofour podcasts, we just reference
(41:44):
this a lot, but like we have allgrown up in a toxic culture.
We've internalized so manymessages that are damaging to
our psyche and yeah, some ofthat's gonna show up in our
body, our body keeps score.
Yeah.
And then maybe my physical bodydoesn't ever change, but like my
experience of freedom absolutelyhas and continues to, I get more
(42:06):
and more free daily and that's acool, fucking beautiful thing.
Val (42:11):
That is beautiful.
so we've been talking a lotabout what we're learning What's
moving around
Kat (42:19):
us.
Val (42:21):
what about what's bringing you pleasure.
Kat (42:22):
Yeah.
Okay, so you probably can relateto this, but living with a
chronic illness, there isnothing as pleasurable as that
moment when your head hits thepillow, it is like you,
everything, everything just it'slike the most beautiful fucking
exhale.
Yeah, it really is.
Val (42:40):
After a long day yesterday, I climbed in my bed for the
first time.
I was like, oh,
Kat (42:44):
Oh shit.
And then for me, the other oneis always water.
Like anytime I can get into abody water, and I notice, like I
try to go to a pool prettyregular, because the pleasure of
being in the pool means thatshowering is Right.
It's not as hard.
Oh.
And so that's interesting.
Like that's my own little likelife hack for myself.
I shower kind of infrequently,but if I can get to the pool,
I'm showering more.
(43:10):
So like floating is so great.
It's such a fucking greatfeeling and like this sensory
pleasure of the water, I justlove it.
It's so good.
Mm-hmm what about you?
Val (43:19):
You know this happened a week or two ago, The humans of
New York, if you aware of theirInstagram, they had a woman.
who had grown up.
I just feel like it was all thebad
Kat (43:29):
stuff, you know?
Yeah.
Val (43:30):
She grew up in like very, very fundamentalist place where
women were not valued.
She had to like, please herhusband.
It was everything her husbandwanted.
And then in this marriage andsomehow she got the courage to
walk
Kat (43:44):
right right
Val (43:45):
And went to New York city with one of her sons.
They have like, you know,millions of followers.
So I'm sure maybe some of youhave already heard this I just
was touched about yes, she gotfree from that had to start all
over again.
Had to trust herself, startedsinging in this pub.
God has like a band togetherand, you know, got this job.
(44:08):
It was all the healing, like asa therapist, I was like, yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Healing with the sons and then Ijust read that they're hooking
up with another person that wason humans of New York in their
pub.
And she's doing like anotherresidency of her one woman show
Kat (44:22):
Oh, my woman show.
Oh my God.
Val (44:23):
one woman show has a wonderful
Kat (44:27):
and wasn't she in her sixties right before she in her
sixties, That's the kicker.
It's never too late.
Val (44:33):
Ugh.
I just like the freedom storythere and the hard earned,
lessons and rebirth.
it just brought me so muchpleasure to read her story.
Kat (44:44):
You know what, I just stuff like that is so beautiful.
We can get free, everybodyMm-hmm we can get free and
sometimes it's not gonna be asdramatic as you have to escape a
marriage and a religion and allthese other things.
But wanna be free Val.
Val (44:56):
Yes.
More freedom,
Kat (44:59):
I love you
Val (45:00):
I love you.
This was good today.
Kat (45:03):
this was good.
Val (45:04):
Even if we're talking about our illnesses.
Fuck.
But it's always good beingtogether.
See you next time.
Kat (45:17):
Like
Val (45:18):
Yep.
Bye.
Bye.
KA.
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