June 28, 2022 • 44 mins
Kat and Val react together and hold space for some big feelings after the news that Roe v. Wade was overturned. After which, they explore the power of collective experiences in our lives as individuals. Bringing all their humor, wisdom and irreverence our hosts share personal stories of healing and transformation that happened as a result of communal experiences.
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast
Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club
Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art
Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast
Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club
Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art
Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
(00:33):
LA.
Kat (00:34):
LA
Val (00:35):
Checking check.
We better fucking
Kat (00:37):
fucking work, fucking work fucker.
Val (00:38):
I know
Kat (00:40):
Hi, Val, that's our sound check.
Everybody.
It turns out producing your ownpodcast is
Val (00:49):
podcast is, oh my gosh.
Garage band is like a littlebrother, like unchecking
buttons.
When you check one box, it likesto just fuck with me.
So that was like the third try.
You heard there friends.
Oh, we thought that'd be a goodlaugh to start off today.
Oh, when
Kat (01:09):
Oh my gosh.
We need a good laugh.
Don't we Val?
Val (01:12):
you do that, don't we remember?
Ah, we do, because currently itfeels like
Kat (01:15):
I know
Val (01:16):
we're on the Titanic.
Kat (01:18):
yes.
I saw a meme.
I saw a meme that said somethinglike, our country and then like,
it's the Titanic.
And then the next shot is like,the people playing the music and
it's like meme artists.
Val (01:29):
That's true.
Thank you.
Meme artists for keeping us
Kat (01:33):
Been giving us.
Go see shit
Val (01:34):
Oh shit.
I hope the meme artists are theones that are gonna go down with
this ship though.
Someone throw a life raft forthe me artists jump on the door
with rose.
You know how it was like therewas room for Jack on the door.
Kat (01:49):
room for Jack
Val (01:50):
Forget Jack.
Fuck Jack.
Save the me artist.
yeah, I love the ones that arelike, this year, 4th of July is,
canceled cuz we have no moreindependence.
I know it's not, it's not goodif Reverend humor that's our
brand.
Don't don't go soft on me.
Cat.
Come on.
(02:10):
This is not the time to go softon me.
Kat (02:12):
so funny.
Okay.
I won't go.
Oh.
Val (02:15):
Ah,
Kat (02:16):
So obviously darling humans, we're referencing the
fact that, some rise have beenremoved from people with
uteruses and that fucking sucksand it feels terrifying.
It does.
Val (02:27):
does feel terrifying.
It really does.
That one is obviously a giantone.
And then also at the same time,there were other, rulings of the
court about states not beingable to make their own laws
about gun control.
And, you know, that'sterrifying.
Kat (02:42):
right.
Val (02:42):
And even the border patrol, let's not even go there yet.
And just even what Roe V Wademeant To other rulings.
I found this great slide deckfrom the NAACP about like how
many other times Roe V.
Wade was referenced to supportpeople's privacy and choice.
(03:04):
I don't think this is fullyunderstood.
Right.
And just sort of the, maybe thethreats yeah.
Of other people's rights, theLGBT community, other people's
rights being come for
Kat (03:15):
secure, honestly.
Yeah.
So anyway, darling humans, wethought maybe we'll try to start
the episode with some laughterbecause we're just, we're
looking at each other and we'rejust grappling with, you know
This, the state of the world welive in.
And, and also this doggeddetermination to like, not given
(03:36):
to despair, right?
Yes.
Feel our feelings, but then notgiven to despair.
And how the fuck do we do that?
How the fuck do we do that?
Man.
Val (03:46):
are you looking at me for that shit?
Well, again, listeners, ifyou're in the future, this is
the time in which, you know,we're recording this and
actually this episode.
We recorded ahead of time.
Yeah.
About this collective energyand, shifts in your life every
day shifts into pleasure and joyand tapping into the collective
(04:08):
and then also maybe how to makesome big shifts.
If you're feeling.
Ah, what's moving around foryou.
And I mean, maybe it's a goodtime for this episode to come
out in the sense, we talk a lotabout joy and, and these are
different coping tools.
Yeah.
Kat (04:23):
And it's interesting.
it's not like an easy thing toarticulate what we're actually
discussing.
We're we're talking about likepersonal growth and
transformation, right.
And the role of community andcommunal experiences in that.
Val (04:36):
And I think that there's no better time to remember that.
Because it's easy or it can beeasy maybe to think that this
doesn't affect me as much, orthis one affects me, but this
one doesn't.
And I think what affects one ofus affects all
Kat (04:51):
us.
Right, right.
Yeah.
And
Val (04:52):
And we really need to remember that, and you and I
were checking in on each otherand I, I sort of sent you
something funny and then you'relike, well how are you doing?
And I'm like, oh, I realize.
I had times of mourning.
and then it was like, okay, tonot fall into despair.
I need to get back into themoment.
Kat (05:11):
Yeah.
Val (05:11):
And find the joy in the moment.
But it's is this weird shiftingin and out of like,
Kat (05:17):
kind of like a dance
Val (05:18):
it is.
And then it's like, well, wheredid you catch me?
you know, wait a minute.
We're all grieving.
Oh shit.
Yeah.
I was just living my life for aminute, you know, and that can
feel Dison it too.
Right.
Or like, should I keep grieving?
You know?
But then I think we've.
Resting.
Yeah.
Pleasure relationships are justvital for us to survive.
Kat (05:38):
Yeah.
You know, and I was listening toa therapist doing like a TikTok
and they were talking about likethe state of the world and like,
yeah, you can meet with me fortherapy.
But that's not gonna get rid ofthe amount of fear and anxiety
that exists.
Completely because of the worldwe live in.
Right.
And so there's this strange,both, and that all of us as
human beings are facing.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
It's this really interesting,like push, pull.
(06:00):
Yeah.
And dance.
When I was I lived in Montanafor a little while and I learned
how to do country swing dance.
And then I also did a little bitof like swing dancing when that
was the thing in the odds,remember, remember when swing
Val (06:09):
dancing.
Kat (06:09):
was like all big again.
And so.
The push pull of a swing dance.
Right?
You got do people together andyou also learn how to like move
with each other's body.
It's just so fascinating, butlike, literally that feels like
the best kind of word picture orimage for how to.
Stay afloat right now, how to bepresent with what we're feeling,
but then how to check in enoughthat we're not towed under by
(06:33):
it.
Right.
I think for me personally, isreally tempting to sort of
isolate and slip into despairbecause of the heavy collective
energy I just can feel.
Sure.
Val (06:44):
Well, and I think that there's talk amongst therapists
about how it's harmful, if we'rejust really individualizing
things, right.
If it's like, well, I'm feelingreally sad.
Okay.
Well, let's talk about thesetools of how for you to not feel
sad or like let's get rid ofthis anxiety like that undertone
of Hey, you should be able toget yourself out of this
anxiety, but seeing peopleinside of.
(07:05):
Them right.
Systemic racism or all the ismsand just the world we live in
today, that just seems to be soheavy, you'll actually do harm
to a person by expecting them asthe individual.
That it's their problem.
Right.
acknowledging this is the worldwe live
Kat (07:21):
Yeah.
The context is so fuckingimportant, right?
Val (07:24):
yeah, for sure.
Kat (07:26):
so my group of queer friends, we all, you know, felt
all of our feelings as best wecould on, Friday when the news
hit.
But then by Saturday we had allplanned this pretty epic pool
party.
It's also pride weekend in thebay area this weekend.
And So a lot of people weredoing pride events and things.
And but yeah, we spent the dayenjoying substances and sunshine
in the pool at like a backyardrented pool again.
(07:47):
Yes.
And it was that thing where wewere co-regulating together.
We were like enjoying eachother's company and we were
enjoying just taking a breakfrom how heavy the world felt,
you know, Man.
It was such a gift and it's,it's that kind of shit that like
helps me stay afloat.
Val (08:04):
that I helped me stay.
now I was suing you before youdid take your top off in the
Kat (08:06):
the
Val (08:06):
right?
Kat (08:09):
I did not take my, nobody took their jobs off.
Oh my God.
Actually, though, this ishilarious.
It's the broad daylight, right?
And it's like, we've rentedsomeone else's backyard.
There are humans that arestrangers to us inside their
home.
That's how you rent.
You rented backyard.
It's called swiftly.
Yeah, But they don't, they don'tvacate their home just because
you're using their backyard.
Right.
Wow.
So anyway,
Val (08:29):
I would vacate
Kat (08:29):
someone at the party was like, oh my God, I wanna do like
a night swim, maybe naked.
And they're like, definitelynaked.
And so we're like, oh yeah,well, that's gonna be like, we
have to rent a whole home.
Right.
And then like have the backyardpool, because that would be just
not okay to have people inside.
And then like everyone's gettingnaked in their pool.
Oh my God.
Val (08:49):
That's an extra charge.
Kat (08:50):
that cuz I'm like, I was like, no, Val.
And I was like, oh
Val (08:54):
Actually.
We did plan
Kat (08:55):
about that.
Val (08:56):
another time.
Kat (08:59):
You know, me too well, Val.
Oh, friends.
Val (09:00):
I do.
Oh friends.
Well, we wanna encourage you tojust take the time you need to
take care of yourself, yourloved ones.
I think, there's time forresting.
There's time to put it aside.
And there's a tide for actiondonation activism, all of those
things, if we're a part of thecollective, what are we going to
do?
And also I think remembering.
(09:21):
The most marginalized, right?
how it's affecting, the mostmarginalized among us, us,
Kat (09:26):
process.
And I've heard some interestingtalks about how we engage in
activism.
And this is something I I'vereally taken in for myself.
It's that when I feel triggeredby the state, The world I am
more effective.
I am more capable, affectingchange when I first sort of meet
with myself and what comes upfor me, mm-hmm then what happens
(09:47):
is, is my ability to be presentand to be not in a triggered
state then whatever action stepI'm feeling attracted to, or is
shiny to me, like this is theyes.
In my body.
Mm-hmm I just have more to giveto that versus when we are
reactionary, cuz we're triggeredit's very triggering
information.
The state of the world istraumatic.
(10:07):
Right?
I just wanna say to us, let'sjust spend a little time tending
our
Val (10:12):
yeah, no, that's good.
Kat (10:12):
selves and do that in loving community.
All right, well, what are wegonna do?
What's in front of us to do, andthen, yeah.
So tend yourself, put the, putthe mask on yourself first.
Val (10:21):
Sure.
As you're talking, I'm thinkingabout our shared Christian
background about evangelizingand how there was no tending to
yourself.
Or like, it always felt like youhad to do it.
And there was only one way to doit.
With no care for yourself.
And so I think we can go intoactivism.
I think it's important for us toact and be active in tearing
(10:41):
down systems of oppression.
There are some people that.
In your face activism.
That's how their body's wired.
Yeah.
They're that protector that'stheir thing.
Right.
And then people find other waysto be helpful and use their
gifts.
Yeah.
It's like, I also wannaencourage everyone, like it's
okay.
It's okay.
To find a way that feels likeit's moving in the way.
Obviously we challenge ourselvesand we get out of our comfort
(11:04):
zone, but.
There's lots of different waysto be involved and to do action,
Kat (11:09):
right?
Yeah.
And, oh, that's so good.
Val, thank you for showing that
Val (11:12):
Oh, well sure.
No.
So we want you to enjoy and wehope that this episode is
helpful.
We talk about collectiveeffervescence.
Ooh.
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Kat (11:45):
It's like you're a
Val (11:45):
dating doula.
Exactly.
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Grab your spot and get more infoat.
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Val (12:23):
All right.
So we're gonna jump into thistopic
Kat (12:26):
Yay.
Val (12:27):
I know that we've been talking amongst ourselves about
doing sort of a Woohoo episode.
Kat (12:33):
I know I really do identify as a Woohoo bitch.
Like it's on all my datingprofiles.
there's only two.
I only have two,
Val (12:44):
Yes.
Like you have gone from our,Pentecostal evangelical spirit
filled background in church.
Right.
And you've, you've been checkingon some wild shit.
Woo stuff.
I've DIPP my toes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Eclectic, eclectic.
Woo bitch.
I've dipped my toes.
Just, just a tiny bit.
Yeah.
Kat (13:04):
Wait, wait, wait, I wanna say earlier today you're like,
is mercury retrograde over yet?
Val (13:08):
I was like,
Kat (13:10):
I was like, yes, Val, it ended a while ago.
Val (13:14):
like, things are still feeling pretty wild what's
happening.
But yes, I was like, oh yeah,three or four planets, like
blocking each other in a row.
Yeah.
That's gotta affect
Kat (13:23):
something.
Val (13:24):
Listen.
I was one over, maybe more byscience.
I think science helps me getinto the boob bitch because I
had some nurse friends that saidmore births happen
Kat (13:34):
right.
Val (13:35):
at the full moon.
And I was like, why?
And they're like, whoa, cuzthere's water in your womb.
And the tides are affected.
Kat (13:43):
Yeah.
I like what modern science sortof like
Val (13:46):
Val, right, right.
What, what we've known.
So we wanted to talk about thatin the intersection of we've
been talking about big topics.
Yeah.
Grief, breakups,
Kat (13:55):
right?
Our relationship with our bodyfucking
Val (13:58):
narratives about our bodies.
Yeah.
Oh, that seems
Kat (14:02):
and deconstructing from like, not just religious
systems, but like our cultural
Val (14:05):
that
Kat (14:06):
that don't serve us.
Yes.
How do we make these shifts?
Val?
These are big shifts.
Val (14:10):
what I'm asking you.
Stop fighting me.
Kat (14:18):
what I'm asking you.
Stop together.
I got some ideas.
Val (14:20):
Yes you do.
That's what I'm saying.
We're just drawing that out ofyou.
Yeah.
you and I have had someconversations recently about
needing that shift needing toshake something up, needing, a
big push, like a breakthrough.
Ooh.
Another word would be
Kat (14:34):
breakthrough breakthrough.
of
Val (14:35):
need a breakthrough, a shift, moving things around.
Kat (14:38):
Definitely.
Val (14:39):
So, how do you make that happen?
And I know, when you were, atsort of one stage of the breakup
process, you were like, I wantsome help, but I don't want a
therapist.
and I didn't take events, butyou're like, I want a
supernatural
Kat (14:54):
right Well that was still I was so desperate to try to
understand, that experience, cuzit felt so profound.
It felt very.
Spiritual the, connection I hadwith that person.
So if it felt to like divinewhile I was experiencing it, I
needed like, a divine doula tohelp me make the transition.
If that's done, then I need Idon't know.
(15:14):
I needed to put it in aspiritual framework for me too,
as part of my
Val (15:18):
Sure.
Oh, that makes sense.
No, I think that's awesome.
And I'm also gonna be a littlebit of a brat.
I truly was not offended whenyou said that, but then later
you're like, I've been listeningto the podcast and the things
that you said were reallyhelping me.
I'm like, yep.
Kat (15:31):
know.
Okay.
This is totally a side note.
This goes back over to
Val (15:34):
Yeah,
Kat (15:35):
Yeah but I will say, in the most intense parts of the grief
I was feeling around thebreakup, I was listening to us
talk to each other in ourpodcast over and over and over
again, cuz it found it socomforting.
Amazing.
Yeah.
And it was funny cuz it was justlike, you're alone in your work
on something and, and it's easyto get real sad about stuff.
And then there's.
(15:55):
Possibility too, that some ofit's the ADHD where I need, kind
of high stimuli.
Like if I'm like cooking in thekitchen Mm-hmm It doesn't feel
good if there's not some sort ofnoise.
And sometimes I need more thanjust music
Val (16:04):
yes, no, I'm married to a human jukebox there's not one
second of the day that there'snot
Kat (16:11):
Right, And so you and I, and our podcasts were like
helping me co-regulate all thattime.
So, yeah.
Val (16:18):
that's so beautiful and actually kind of meta, like I
Kat (16:20):
I know
Val (16:21):
it's kind of what we're talking about.
You actually using the podcastfor helping
Kat (16:25):
That's
Val (16:26):
That's amazing.
Thank you for sharing that.
I love it.
I love
Kat (16:29):
it.
so, but then one of the otherthings I did when I was aware
that there was a lot of griefcoming with the end of that
relationship.
And so I was the recipient of anonline.
and I was like, oh my God.
It was like someone advertisingthis, communal, like breathwork
experience Yes.
And, Valerie it, I showed youpictures of it.
It looked exactly like ourPentecostal days where like
(16:50):
you're having this.
Big, very high emotionallycharged sort of alter call
experience.
Yeah.
Right.
And you can feel like there'slike this tangible, like energy
in the air.
Yes.
And everyone is fucking crying.
Everyone's crying
Val (17:04):
even testimonials you're like, it really is like church
there's testimonies after.
Kat (17:09):
So this was a a non-religious version of that.
Oh my God, I know exactly whatthat is.
And it's funny.
The facilitator of it was thisperson from Poland.
And I was like, I don't give ashit about them.
I'm not even gonna read theirfucking bio.
I know exactly what that is.
And I'm gonna fucking go to
Val (17:23):
their fucking bio I know exactly what that is You
actually said to me, I don'tcare if it's a cult or
Kat (17:26):
not, I'm not
Val (17:26):
I'm not gonna get sucked in.
Cause the divine, wait, wait,wait.
Okay.
This is, this is a deep dive.
If you guys have listened toevery single episode, the divine
doesn't give a fuck about dogma.
Kat (17:38):
It doesn't.
Nope.
I stay really far away fromdogma.
I will pick and choose anythingthat resonates in all these
kinds of spiritual modalitiesand world religions, all that
shit, but no dogma ever again.
Fuck you, motherfucker.
No gurus.
Val (17:52):
Sure Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kat (17:53):
I was like, no, I can see it.
And I think, our experience withliving in charismatic, worldview
and paradigm, there really arepeople that like embody a
certain kind of charisma andenergy.
You see it with performers too.
Like, they're aware that whenthey're like singing in front of
stadiums, there's thiscollective energy and they can
fucking move it around.
I also, I was just listening tolike, oh my God.
(18:17):
My biggest celebrity crush ofall I fucking am in love with
that You know what actually Irealized I had like the biggest
crush on them before I even knewit was queer.
this is like a crush crush.
What the fuck,
Val (18:30):
I do remember you saying that actually.
Yeah.
Kat (18:33):
I do remember saying that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway, so Hannah GA me has aaudio book.
10 steps to.
And so I was listening to thisand, she was talking about
Recognizing that she had controlover this huge room.
She had
Val (18:44):
energy control
Kat (18:45):
and then she even talked about how, like, she doesn't
necessarily wanna have controlover that many people.
It was just, just thefascinating.
I was like, I know exactly whatthat
Val (18:53):
is.
Yeah
Kat (18:54):
Yeah.
So when I was in pain and grief,I could tell there's like big
emotion there.
I want to have a communalcatharsis experience.
Yeah.
And it was advertised directlyto me and it was happening the
very next week.
And I was like, yes, that signedme up.
I'm going So
Val (19:10):
can I, just aside before you tell us about your
experience yeah.
You were trying to get me to go,
Kat (19:14):
Oh yeah.
I was like, let's do thistogether for the podcast though.
Val (19:17):
oh yeah to get the podcast though And I was so down for
like three questions with catand Val goes on an experience.
Oh yeah, yeah.
But I had to work and then I waslike, well, do I shift
everything around?
And I was looking for an answer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then you're like, did youwatch the video?
I sent you of the testimonialsImmediately in my body knew it
did not feel good when Ilistened to those testimonials,
I don't know if I'm gettingtriggered from the past.
(19:38):
It's just too much, but I'mlike, I got my answer cat it's
no, I don't know I'm beingtriggered and you're of course
you're like, that's okay.
But
Kat (19:45):
I went all by myself, like.
Place in downtown Oakland.
And like everyone brings theirlike yoga mat to basically land
the floor in this large venue.
And then.
What they did is they led youthrough breathe this way.
And, the body's kind of amazingin this way.
Like, there are lots of way toget into a deep meditative
space, right?
A subconscious space.
(20:06):
And then you and I haveexperienced this because of our
Pentecostal days.
We had experience this calledbeing like slain in the spirit
mm-hmm Sometimes someone wouldpray for you.
And there would be like a surgeof energy.
Val (20:16):
Mm.
Kat (20:16):
And whether we were conditioned to expect it to
happen or whether it was reallyjust this authentic reaction or
response to this energy surge,like it would knock you down.
Yeah.
And then, then you'd have likepeople that were like prepared
to they'd be behind you, readyto catch you and lay you down
gently.
And then all the modesty policeare like, Here's a, blanket And
so my experience of that.
It was always really a positiveexperience.
(20:37):
I would be like on the groundand I would feel if I really
wanted to move my body, Iprobably could, but it would
like take a lot of effort, but Iwould feel myself sort of in
this sublime space whereeverything in the world felt
okay.
There was a deep sense ofstillness and and unconditional
love and acceptance.
Mm.
There was always like praise andworship music kind of in the
(20:58):
background.
And it was just this reallyfucking cool space.
Mm.
And I've had experiences, inmore recent years where I can
achieve that kind of.
Space with just meditation, butlike, there's something more
powerful when you're doing it ina collective.
And so I'm telling you when Isaw this thing, I was like that
and see again, we listened toour bodies.
My body was like, yes.
(21:19):
And it was such a cleared loud.
Yes.
and I think it's fascinating.
It was a clear loud.
No for you.
Right.
And just that again, likethere's space for both of that.
Right, right.
Because everything is not foreverybody.
Right.
And that's totally fine.
the event ended up going reallywell.
I didn't have any expectationsexcept for, I knew that it would
be an opportunity to have.
(21:39):
The synergy of multiple peoplekind of doing their own private
Val (21:43):
Mm
Kat (21:44):
We're all, we're in a collective environment.
So like this one person isleading it and saying, breathe
these ways, but you can hearother people having like big
emotional responses and there'smusic playing pretty loud.
And then they're, they'releading you, so you don't have
to engage your, your thinkingmind too much.
And again, it's just breathing.
There's they're like they havesome sort of formula for it, I
guess.
You know?
And I was like, I don't care.
Like I'm, here for the ride.
(22:05):
Right.
Yeah.
But it, I did end up having areally profound experience and
it really.
Like move a lot of, griefthrough me in sort of a, fast
expedient kind of way.
And it doesn't mean that I wasimmediately over the breakup or
anything.
I still had lots of things toprocess, but it was sure it was
really a cathartic event.
Val (22:23):
That's so good Yeah Yeah.
Well, we wanted to talk a littlebit more too today about just
the power of, that collectivemm-hmm And then when you add in
the spiritual too, right?
Like in the churches that, I wasinvolved in, we would do these
sort of healing weekends.
Totally.
Right.
why couldn't you just.
Have one night.
Why are retreats so powerful or,popular, like getting together,
(22:46):
setting aside the time, right.
Spending the
Kat (22:49):
There's the intentions in two right the intentions, So
it's the collective, there issomething about like the synergy
of multiple people with thisshared intention.
That's really, really powerful.
Val (22:58):
All these different spiritual things.
I had heard some teaching evenwhile I was still in the church
about how the charisma, thecharismatic gifts were given.
To everyone.
Yeah.
Not just, you know, the quoteChristians or so even being
inside Christianity, believingthat these gifts are out there
everywhere.
Right, right So I already hadthat in my worldview.
Kat (23:18):
Sure.
Val (23:19):
Right.
And then you start seeing itright.
So you were talking about justthis feeling that overcomes you
in the spirit.
Right?
Some people had visions, right.
Or just can see pictures.
Get words or even a psychicability of like, this is what I
see in the future for you.
Right.
Or just words of wisdom or
Kat (23:37):
Or an intuitive, there's a lot of like quote, secular
spiritual words that we had allthese things in the church that
I'm like, oh yeah, like I'm aspiritual, intuitive.
Absolutely.
I'm a fucking mystic.
Absolutely.
Right.
I don't super identify as apsychic because none of the
stuff that I the mysticism Iplay in isn't really about, it's
not future focused.
Yeah.
But yeah, we still have allthose
Val (23:58):
What's really funny is like, you've gone past the
future.
You're like in anotherdimension.
Kat (24:02):
my God.
That's true.
Val (24:03):
That's true.
You're in a different construct.
Kat (24:05):
I don't, it's hard to live in this world anymore.
it sounds so dumb, but it'sreally true.
Val (24:14):
That's I think we make a good
Kat (24:15):
Care
Val (24:16):
cause I can get into that, but like I think I still, my Fe
feed are firmly
Kat (24:21):
I'm just I, I'm not grounded at all.
Val (24:25):
no, I think it's amazing.
It's so good.
Yeah.
We also wanted to talk about.
Well in that is like thiscommunal catharsis, right?
Yeah.
Right.
And I think that event you wentto, I think I'm sort of private.
Yeah.
Still a prudish if you'velistened to other
Kat (24:42):
episodes.
Val (24:42):
So I think like you, you described it exactly perfectly
that it is a communal spacewhere you go to do private
Kat (24:50):
very private, deep shit.
People are wailing and crying,
Val (24:53):
are wailing crying.
Kat (24:54):
I love that shit.
Val (24:55):
I think I like to do my private work in the private and
I get this sort of likesecondhand embarrassment.
It's like, I know like ifsomeone's wheeling so much, I.
Oh, my gosh.
Kat (25:06):
that's funny.
I'm not embarrassed by shit
Val (25:08):
I know you're not,
Kat (25:09):
Oh my God.
I was definitely loud and verydemonstrative in my like little
individual space.
And at the end, This lady cameup to me and I felt like she was
being kind of condescending, cuzI was like, I'm good.
But she was like, you having anexperience.
Huh?
And I was like, mm-hmm I'm gladI came.
(25:31):
cuz she thought it was the firsttime.
And I was like, listen, youdon't know anything fucking
about me I'm like, I don't needyour fucking hug.
I got what I needed.
It sounds so terrible.
Like, she just looks at me asmaking some assumptions and I
was like, nah,
Val (25:47):
don't know me lady
Kat (25:50):
I don't even live in your fucking dimension
Val (25:54):
the different social time
Kat (25:55):
construct.
Val (25:57):
Oh my gosh.
And you know, like thecatharsis.
Just explaining why, like we dopublic memorials, Or come
together.
Or feel like you have to govisit a place that
Kat (26:07):
something happens Okay So we're getting the bigger topic
here is like these shifts thatwe need to make.
So sometimes it can be aroundlike a hard thing or grief or
mourn, but also it's publiccommunity experience of like joy
and pleasure.
Right.
So we're talking about, Theexperience of going out.
Dancing and, and the energy oflike, everyone is dancing and
moving together.
Like you have parties here andlike we're all dancing.
(26:28):
And that is this sharedexperience that I think does
create shifts.
Right.
And it can be like, oh my God,there's joy in the world.
Oh my God.
I can, this is what my life canlook like,
Val (26:39):
like the week is heavy and then you can shake it
Kat (26:41):
off You can shake it off.
That's why they invented happyhour.
I'm sure of it.
I'm sure
Val (26:45):
I was introduced to a term that I was like, oh, I
Kat (26:48):
can't Oh, it's such a good term.
Thought about this.
It's.
good
Val (26:50):
Collective effervescence is the
Kat (26:53):
term Ooh
Val (26:54):
I coined back in 1912 by like a
Kat (26:57):
Yeah Effervescence is the best word
Val (26:58):
I know.
But Adam Grant, who has writtensome great books he wrote an
article about it during thepandemic about what we're
missing is this collective
Kat (27:08):
Right, right,
Val (27:09):
right, right.
Yeah So, so it could be.
in the every day, comingtogether as synergy yeah.
Coming together for like a,purpose with strangers.
Right.
So when you kind of get in syncwith some of the stranger on the
dance floor, or you're all atMemorial or.
At a sporting
Kat (27:28):
Yes.
Val (27:28):
Oh, the power of these things when I go with my
husband, he's originally fromBrazil and of course it is SA
Romania.
The world stops because of it.
The stock market in Brazil
Kat (27:38):
That's amazing on
Val (27:39):
the days that Brazil plays in the world cup every four
years, I'm like, guys, get ittogether.
they shut down ATMs.
I don't
Kat (27:47):
Oh my God.
ATMs.
Val (27:48):
Yeah.
Yeah,
Kat (27:48):
yeah.
Val (27:48):
Every the, the street, your grandma's
Kat (27:51):
Wow
Val (27:51):
for the team.
Every everybody takes off work.
Yeah.
It is a moving experience and Ifind it fascinating because it's
all for a sport.
We actually schedule vacationsaround world cup every four
years because America doesn'treally get into the party.
There's no effervescence.
There's there's very littlecollective effervescence around
(28:11):
world cup.
And my poor husband, he needsthat.
Yeah, but I love it too.
We go to other countries and iftheir country is in it,
everybody's in the streets.
The cafes set up, TVs outsidegrandmas are yelling at the
screen.
Everyone's cheering.
And it feels so
Kat (28:26):
good right yeah.
I don't think we should poolike, oh, it's just a game.
Like, that's the thing that youand I keep saying, like turning
the hard things in.
Into a game or, looking forplay.
Yeah.
Right.
And I think it is beautiful tolike allow yourself to get swept
up in something that's biggerthan yourself.
Val (28:42):
Oh a hundred percent and that's why it's so big.
Right.
And of course we got it inchurch and a lot of, religious
events, but.
It is such a powerful thing.
And we did, we did lose a lot ofthat in COVID
Kat (28:55):
and, yeah
Val (28:55):
There was a stat I wanted to read, research has found that
people laugh five times as oftenwhen they're with others as when
they're alone, even exchangingpleasantries with a stranger on
a train is enough to spark joy.
I live for that shit.
Yeah.
I live for making a strangersmile.
Right.
Joking.
Right.
And I, I don't think it'sultraism, I want it.
(29:16):
I want it cuz it feels good inmy buddy.
I wanna talk to the guy attrader Joe's.
I wanna laugh with a strangerabout
Kat (29:21):
something.
Absolutely Yeah.
And that's proof of your likeoutgoing nature too, right?
Mm-hmm but also for ourintroverted friends and I'm kind
of mixture of both anyway, somaybe it's not a complete
stranger or it's a limitedamount of time with the
strangers cuz there can be adraining.
Experience too, but like sure.
the fact that like an experiencethat we have in any kind of
group can like heighten theexperience and allow space for
(29:45):
these shifts for this elevation.
Mm.
Yeah.
Val (29:47):
I I'm sure you've been at a concert.
I mean, definitely happened atbigger church events, but, you
know, just concerts yeah.
Feeling like that energy rushingthrough your body.
When I was going through justthe worst of the infertility
sadness we'd be at church andduring worship, I, it was so
overwhelming.
I would cry so hard.
I have to leave cuz it was justkind of embarrassing.
(30:09):
To be crying so hard.
And I didn't know if that was aspiritual connection, but then
one day it was the Grammy's andJohn legend, he just sang two
Kat (30:18):
Yeah.
Val (30:19):
I started to tear up.
Yeah.
I mean, could have hormones haveplayed a part?
Yes.
But then we were at some stupidamusement park watching some
play kind of thing.
And the music came on.
I don't know what this musicwas.
Yeah.
I started crying.
I started crying.
Yeah.
I did not let my husband seethat.
Oh, it would've freaked him
Kat (30:38):
out.
He wasn't
Val (30:39):
yet but I think now I can understand it as this collective
energy.
Just being very sensitive tothat and being moved by that
Kat (30:48):
music Yeah And music is moving like, oh yeah, for sure.
I'll cry over music too.
Yeah.
Val (30:53):
Well.
And you talked about thiscollective energy in this being
aware of being able to movearound the energy.
Yeah.
I love worship for 10 years
Kat (31:02):
Totally great Yeah.
Val (31:03):
Yeah.
Every week, right?
10
Kat (31:06):
years.
you know what that feels
Val (31:07):
feels like.
I sound like a jackass say this,but like, I know how to work a
crowd,
Kat (31:10):
it's not a jackass thing.
It's just the truth.
Right?
See, that's old churchy shitbecause
Val (31:15):
is.
Kat (31:15):
You're a fucking awesome human You can control the, the
energy of the room.
Val (31:19):
Well, I had 10 years of that and like people who are MCs
at events and stuff, right.
So that's a long time to dosomething.
I was not manipulative right.
In any conscious way.
It wasn't like ha.
This, and also there was aspiritual realm, I think in this
mixture of music and thisspiritual realm and knowing what
music does to us.
(31:39):
Right.
As
Kat (31:40):
and like the journey that you have a sense of where you
need to take this collective,that's the coolness of it.
Yeah.
Yes.
And I would feel a lot when Iwould be preaching.
I feel sometimes in differentsettings where I'm, talking and
I can feel these things sort ofshift and it's really cool.
You're tapped into something.
Right.
Mm-hmm, something a littlebigger than yourself.
Mm-hmm and you're like, oh, I'maware that in this moment, I'm
(32:01):
the one directing the ship andit's a very awesome experience.
It fills me with awe.
Yeah.
You know, luckily for you and I,we were kind of altruistic by
nature and so we're not usingthis to like, to our own ends.
Yeah.
But like to help foster an
Val (32:18):
experience.
Yeah.
Did you do Al alter calls as apart of your yeah, so right.
The piano music comes on andyou're feeling like what's
supposed to happen in
Kat (32:25):
like laying hands and praying
Val (32:27):
Oh yeah.
Kat (32:28):
Oh yeah.
We're like down there in there.
Yeah.
I mean, I have really positivememories of
Val (32:32):
that.
Sure
Kat (32:32):
Sure.
What's interesting is that, allthis deconstruction from that
worldview, there's so manythings that I was like, I don't
know how to understand thispowerful thing I experienced
though, you know?
And then later.
I was able to see some of thespiritual stuff come back
without that rigid container offundamentalism.
That's why I say so often thatyes, the divine does not care
about dogma, right?
(32:53):
Because all of that isirrelevant to the fact that we
can tap in to an energy that'slarger than just us and in my
mind now, the way I understandit is that we're all connected.
Right?
So we're all part ofconsciousness.
And so that feeling of being.
in, a highly charged spaceenvironment.
And sometimes just being aparticipant and sometimes being
(33:13):
a facilitator mm-hmm you knowand when I went to that
breathwork thing, I knew I wasjust a participant and I didn't
wanna talk to anybody.
But then in the past, there'sbeen these times where I've been
the facilitator where you'vebeen the facilitator and then
you get to hold space for humansto have these cool fucking
shifts.
Val (33:30):
Oh, and you need to have your own it's it's a really
powerful experience.
I mean, and it's probably why Istayed with it for so long.
I mean, well, sometimes we weredoing this once a month, but I
think we ended up with quarterlyholding these weekend
experiences where, women wouldcome together and I mean, they
were getting heal.
Of so much shit.
Right.
And just being able to shift theenergy, move the energy, Kind of
sense what may be going on, whatpeople need to hear.
(33:52):
And it's so interesting that youtalk about moving around the
collective energy.
Because, you know, I used tosing a lot.
And I just recently sang at myhusband's birthday party and I
wanted to get back into it and Iwas thinking about it.
I don't have the best voice.
Kat (34:06):
Well, you have an incredible
Val (34:07):
Well, thank you.
But it's not like, like I reallyenjoy.
moving someone with a song.
Yeah And I think that's what I'mreally good at It's that I know
how to move energy and make youfeel something like I had
neighbors were sitting in myliving room crying,
Kat (34:24):
know Yeah.
Val (34:25):
Because I got a lot of feedback and I think the
feedback was just that like, oh,you helped me get to that
Kat (34:30):
place.
Mm-hmm Yeah, that's a goodfeeling.
I just wanna say about musictoo.
And like, so there's, I'mhearing you say that there's
multiple things at play here,right?
So there's just the power oflike singing your heart out is a
great experience, right?
Mm-hmm and then getting to do itwith, other people or performing
for other people and watchingthe energy move around and kind
of steer that.
But then also.
When we think about things thatyou can do practically to have
(34:53):
some of these experiences likejoining a choir is like a really
good one.
There's all these studies that
Val (34:57):
talk Yes The health benefits.
Kat (35:00):
Yes.
Are the
Val (35:01):
Are singing fucking choirs,
Kat (35:03):
music Oh I
Val (35:04):
Well I did
Kat (35:05):
that I've done it too recently.
Val (35:07):
Totally.
No, it's, it's really
Kat (35:09):
powerful.
it's synergy, it's synergy,right?
It's it's music, which is itsown wonderful, incredible thing.
And then you have like acollective shared experience
with other people for a sharedintention, right.
And it's a beautiful soullifting spirit lifting
Val (35:24):
him well.
So what's interesting in thisarticle, they're saying that
some research shows that maybefind, trying to find your bliss,
your happiness, your joy byyourself might lead to more
feelings of loneliness Sure.
And I mean, in right that's ingeneral, not like the regular
introvert guys leave me alone.
I gotta recharge my battery.
Yeah, that is.
Actually do you know, what'sgood for your gut health?
(35:46):
I started to have a lot of IBS.
Yeah.
And they're like Garling andloud singing is really good for
your gut health.
gonna start getting an choiragain?
Kat (35:55):
Yeah.
Val (35:56):
Again.
Yeah.
Body being so wise, yeah, buthere I wanna read this quote.
I finally found it.
Okay.
Before COVID research showedthat more than three quarters of
people found collectiveeffervescent, at least once a
week, 75% of people and almost30% experienced it at least once
a day.
Wow.
They felt it when they sang incourses, ran in races, quieter
(36:18):
moments of connection at coffeeshops in yoga classes.
Kat (36:21):
Did you know that even a movie can accomplish that for
you?
Right?
Like going to a movie theater.
Val (36:27):
Yeah.
I balled at the end of onemovie.
Yeah.
Of course, it was about racialinjustice and tragedy.
Yeah.
And there was one clip at theend.
Right.
And one older black lady kind ofyelped or, how old, like, kind
of in pain.
Yeah.
I getting
Kat (36:43):
chills now
Val (36:43):
talking about it.
I just started weeping becauseit's that click.
Of experience.
Yeah.
Ah, it also goes into justwitnessing and holding space for
someone else's pain, the magicof therapy or any other healing
or your friendships that feelhealing is when you're seen
yeah.
Shame.
We know shame can exist onceit's been shared right.
(37:05):
It's been exposed.
Yeah.
Right.
Kat (37:08):
So beautiful.
Okay.
So last episode, we're talkingabout like how to like rebuild
your relationship with yourbody, you know, mm-hmm and so
like just recently I was invitedto like specifically a fat queer
pool party where the peoplefacilitating, the party.
They, did the thing on swiftly,you know, like you can rent a
backyard pool Oh wow Yeah.
So these two queer people wholive in fat bodies were like,
(37:30):
yeah, I just wanna like swimaround in the pool with other
people who also identify as fat.
And again, it's like theycreated a space and a container
for a fucking amazing sharedexperience of just joy and just
pleasure.
Safety of you could be whereveryou were on your body journey,
but you are looking at otherpeople around you that are like
feeling good on their body,right.
(37:51):
In non-normative bodies, right?
Yeah.
So, or, you know what we wouldcall like straight size or
typically appealing bodies,right?
Whatever.
Like the mainstream culture saysis acceptable.
You've got all of us runningaround.
You know, two pieces and like,and people are queer and like so
you've got like folks that havelike recently had top surgery
and, you know, I mean, not sorecent that they can't swim, but
like, you know what I'm saying?
(38:11):
Like non-normative and it's justsafe and everyone's having a
fucking, great time.
Oh my God.
That's a beautiful collectiveexperience.
Yes Communal effervescence.
Val (38:24):
Dear listeners.
Where are you finding that?
Communal effervescence.
Can we be in the 30% thatexperiences that at least once a
Kat (38:33):
day Right Or
Val (38:33):
in a small way,
Kat (38:34):
put it on your radar as a thing to be
Val (38:37):
Let's start.
Yeah.
Kat (38:38):
Being open.
I mean, do you wanna puttogether a thing, like take all
your close friends and do athing or like host a thing or
like also maybe something assimple as writing it down in, in
a journal or something like,okay, I'm gonna put this out in
the world or on the universe oflike, oh, I'm recognizing that I
need a shift in my relationshipwith my body.
I wanna.
Space with other humans.
That's very specificallyliberation, Body positive,
(39:01):
whatever words you like, Yeah.
And maybe it's another thing.
Maybe it's grief yeah.
so I can have the assistance ofsynergy from other humans in
whatever shift is going on orwhatever shift I'm looking
Val (39:12):
help Yeah.
Well, and, I mean, I'm noscientist but you know, Adam's
bouncing off each other.
Yeah.
And like the energy that motioncreates and all of us together.
Right.
Mm-hmm I, you even said that tome, was it last night where
you're like, okay, your energyis kind of helping me pull
myself up a little bit out of abad mood or whatever was Right.
(39:34):
So I think even prioritizingmaking space, also the intention
there's research around this,that.
If you are aware that the thingyou're doing is good for you
and, and health promoting, youget way more health benefits is
so wild.
So knowing like, no, my choirpractice or, my softball team,
my pickle ball.
(39:55):
Yeah.
Let me say this first, before Imove on, because of course I got
a mention pickleball This is anarticle I found somewhere
pickleball has the unifying feelgood spirit of family game
night.
True.
The potential for a Zumba classis caloric burn true.
And the vitamin D of a day atthe beach.
And I've always asked, like, whydoes it feel so fucking good?
(40:15):
It's communal effervesce painfulIt's communal effervescence.
Kat (40:20):
Totally I've got something coming up.
I'm super excited about.
It's called queers of theFatosphere and so it's like a
live performance.
Ooh.
Of like fat queer performers,just comedy and, I know a couple
of the performers, but I'm justso excited and it's, in San
Francisco and, you know, I don'tgo out to the city that often.
But yeah, just I'm gonna sharespace with other people that
(40:40):
like use some of the sameidentifiers that I use to be
like, entertained, to be likesupporting people that I care
about and believe in and justlike them expressing themselves
creatively.
And I can't wait.
Val (40:52):
Yeah.
Exciting.
Communal effervescence,
Kat (40:55):
communal EFSS since Oh man.
oh,
Val (41:02):
I love
Kat (41:02):
it.
Yeah.
In service to whatever is goingon in our life, you know, like
again, Last week.
I feel like we did a pretty goodjob of explaining, like we gotta
engage in our own journey.
Right.
And so much of this work isinside Yeah.
But the both and is, Hey, weactually need one another and we
don't just need one or two closepeople in our lives.
(41:23):
We need the collective.
We need the groups of humanssometimes.
Val (41:28):
a hundred percent.
And that's some of the critiqueof like doing your individual
work.
Yeah.
We do need to be in service toeach other and looking out for
one another.
Right.
But from that same article Iwrote down that emotions are
inherently social weavingthrough society and
Kat (41:44):
Wow Yeah.
Okay.
Val (41:47):
Wow.
Yeah.
And I think there, it really isright.
A social.
Component to emotions.
We have some emotions inisolation of course, but a lot
of the emotions we're evenhaving in isolation come from
our interactions with otherpeople.
Right.
Sure.
And when we have them, right, wewanna share them with
Kat (42:02):
people So like your laughter is doubled and your,
sorrow is, halved.
Right?
What's that phrase,
Val (42:07):
Oh, I don't know,
Kat (42:08):
but I Yeah.
Val (42:09):
Ooh that's
Kat (42:10):
beautiful.
I know, This whole conversationis bringing me a lot of pleasure
though.
Val (42:17):
was that a hint?
Yes.
Ah, so good.
Kat (42:20):
Thank you for suggesting this topic.
Val (42:22):
Dear friends We hope that maybe something sparked like an
everyday practice or every weekpractice, or if you're looking
for a breakthrough you'reneeding.
To shift something.
Yeah.
Look to a communal space.
Yeah.
Or some sort of spiritual tapinto that
Kat (42:41):
And we wanna be really clear, like it literally can be
anything, and here's the otherthing to piggyback on last
week's episode?
Try to be aware in your body,when an invitation crosses your
path just be like, oh, how's itfeel in my body to imagine going
to
Val (42:53):
this?
Mm.
Kat (42:53):
mm-hmm and then sometimes we'll get like a loud yes.
Or a loud, no, but sometimesit's in that middle.
Wrong and that's okay.
But take a little risk here andthere, like try this thing out,
like try something new, like,
Val (43:03):
Yeah.
Use your imagination.
Call your BFFs to be like, comeon.
Let's think of a ritual orsomething we can do together or
Yeah.
Even, like they can be fun.
Like I follow somebody thatthey're like, we're in Iceland
for my, girlfriend's divorce
Kat (43:17):
trip.
Oh my gosh Yeah
Val (43:19):
gotten divorced do that.
Right.
So there's so many differentthings that can help you shift
Yeah It's been so good to bewith you today,
Kat (43:27):
Yay
Val (43:27):
So to close this out, you know, we've been talking a lot
about what we've been learning,how we've been shifting, right.
What's bringing you pleasure
Kat (43:36):
Well, I mean, the pool party that I got to go to, I
think is still just like just abright fucking highlight.
It feels really good to sharespace with people who are also
comfortable in their skin.
Yeah.
And and so you're not like theodd one out cuz you live in a
non-normative body.
It was fun.
Got all that vitamin D welaughed so much.
Maybe there were some substancesit is a good fucking day.
(44:00):
how about you Val?
Val (44:00):
You know, I was still really thinking about the few
parties we've thrown and just Iactually think I'm getting
pleasure about thinking aboutmaybe some of the events we're
gonna
Kat (44:09):
in the future.
Mm.
Yeah.
Some great ideas percolating
Val (44:11):
yeah.
Sort of dreaming about thefuture mm-hmm When you know, it
can do good or help people.
Right.
That's what really feels reallyamazing.
So as we're talking, I'm kind ofthinking back to some of these
things.
I am getting excited kind ofgetting back to that and using
those
Kat (44:28):
Uhhuh
Val (44:29):
to.
Change.
What did you say before?
Like
Kat (44:31):
Well, I talk about like limiting suffering.
There's less suffering in thewhole world.
Val (44:34):
less suffering in the whole wide world.
Kat (44:36):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yay.
I love you, Kim.
I love you Val Bye.
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
(00:33):
LA.
Kat (00:34):
LA
Val (00:35):
Checking check.
We better fucking
Kat (00:37):
fucking work, fucking work fucker.
Val (00:38):
I know
Kat (00:40):
Hi, Val, that's our sound check.
Everybody.
It turns out producing your ownpodcast is
Val (00:49):
podcast is, oh my gosh.
Garage band is like a littlebrother, like unchecking
buttons.
When you check one box, it likesto just fuck with me.
So that was like the third try.
You heard there friends.
Oh, we thought that'd be a goodlaugh to start off today.
Oh, when
Kat (01:09):
Oh my gosh.
We need a good laugh.
Don't we Val?
Val (01:12):
you do that, don't we remember?
Ah, we do, because currently itfeels like
Kat (01:15):
I know
Val (01:16):
we're on the Titanic.
Kat (01:18):
yes.
I saw a meme.
I saw a meme that said somethinglike, our country and then like,
it's the Titanic.
And then the next shot is like,the people playing the music and
it's like meme artists.
Val (01:29):
That's true.
Thank you.
Meme artists for keeping us
Kat (01:33):
Been giving us.
Go see shit
Val (01:34):
Oh shit.
I hope the meme artists are theones that are gonna go down with
this ship though.
Someone throw a life raft forthe me artists jump on the door
with rose.
You know how it was like therewas room for Jack on the door.
Kat (01:49):
room for Jack
Val (01:50):
Forget Jack.
Fuck Jack.
Save the me artist.
yeah, I love the ones that arelike, this year, 4th of July is,
canceled cuz we have no moreindependence.
I know it's not, it's not goodif Reverend humor that's our
brand.
Don't don't go soft on me.
Cat.
Come on.
(02:10):
This is not the time to go softon me.
Kat (02:12):
so funny.
Okay.
I won't go.
Oh.
Val (02:15):
Ah,
Kat (02:16):
So obviously darling humans, we're referencing the
fact that, some rise have beenremoved from people with
uteruses and that fucking sucksand it feels terrifying.
It does.
Val (02:27):
does feel terrifying.
It really does.
That one is obviously a giantone.
And then also at the same time,there were other, rulings of the
court about states not beingable to make their own laws
about gun control.
And, you know, that'sterrifying.
Kat (02:42):
right.
Val (02:42):
And even the border patrol, let's not even go there yet.
And just even what Roe V Wademeant To other rulings.
I found this great slide deckfrom the NAACP about like how
many other times Roe V.
Wade was referenced to supportpeople's privacy and choice.
(03:04):
I don't think this is fullyunderstood.
Right.
And just sort of the, maybe thethreats yeah.
Of other people's rights, theLGBT community, other people's
rights being come for
Kat (03:15):
secure, honestly.
Yeah.
So anyway, darling humans, wethought maybe we'll try to start
the episode with some laughterbecause we're just, we're
looking at each other and we'rejust grappling with, you know
This, the state of the world welive in.
And, and also this doggeddetermination to like, not given
(03:36):
to despair, right?
Yes.
Feel our feelings, but then notgiven to despair.
And how the fuck do we do that?
How the fuck do we do that?
Man.
Val (03:46):
are you looking at me for that shit?
Well, again, listeners, ifyou're in the future, this is
the time in which, you know,we're recording this and
actually this episode.
We recorded ahead of time.
Yeah.
About this collective energyand, shifts in your life every
day shifts into pleasure and joyand tapping into the collective
(04:08):
and then also maybe how to makesome big shifts.
If you're feeling.
Ah, what's moving around foryou.
And I mean, maybe it's a goodtime for this episode to come
out in the sense, we talk a lotabout joy and, and these are
different coping tools.
Yeah.
Kat (04:23):
And it's interesting.
it's not like an easy thing toarticulate what we're actually
discussing.
We're we're talking about likepersonal growth and
transformation, right.
And the role of community andcommunal experiences in that.
Val (04:36):
And I think that there's no better time to remember that.
Because it's easy or it can beeasy maybe to think that this
doesn't affect me as much, orthis one affects me, but this
one doesn't.
And I think what affects one ofus affects all
Kat (04:51):
us.
Right, right.
Yeah.
And
Val (04:52):
And we really need to remember that, and you and I
were checking in on each otherand I, I sort of sent you
something funny and then you'relike, well how are you doing?
And I'm like, oh, I realize.
I had times of mourning.
and then it was like, okay, tonot fall into despair.
I need to get back into themoment.
Kat (05:11):
Yeah.
Val (05:11):
And find the joy in the moment.
But it's is this weird shiftingin and out of like,
Kat (05:17):
kind of like a dance
Val (05:18):
it is.
And then it's like, well, wheredid you catch me?
you know, wait a minute.
We're all grieving.
Oh shit.
Yeah.
I was just living my life for aminute, you know, and that can
feel Dison it too.
Right.
Or like, should I keep grieving?
You know?
But then I think we've.
Resting.
Yeah.
Pleasure relationships are justvital for us to survive.
Kat (05:38):
Yeah.
You know, and I was listening toa therapist doing like a TikTok
and they were talking about likethe state of the world and like,
yeah, you can meet with me fortherapy.
But that's not gonna get rid ofthe amount of fear and anxiety
that exists.
Completely because of the worldwe live in.
Right.
And so there's this strange,both, and that all of us as
human beings are facing.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
It's this really interesting,like push, pull.
(06:00):
Yeah.
And dance.
When I was I lived in Montanafor a little while and I learned
how to do country swing dance.
And then I also did a little bitof like swing dancing when that
was the thing in the odds,remember, remember when swing
Val (06:09):
dancing.
Kat (06:09):
was like all big again.
And so.
The push pull of a swing dance.
Right?
You got do people together andyou also learn how to like move
with each other's body.
It's just so fascinating, butlike, literally that feels like
the best kind of word picture orimage for how to.
Stay afloat right now, how to bepresent with what we're feeling,
but then how to check in enoughthat we're not towed under by
(06:33):
it.
Right.
I think for me personally, isreally tempting to sort of
isolate and slip into despairbecause of the heavy collective
energy I just can feel.
Sure.
Val (06:44):
Well, and I think that there's talk amongst therapists
about how it's harmful, if we'rejust really individualizing
things, right.
If it's like, well, I'm feelingreally sad.
Okay.
Well, let's talk about thesetools of how for you to not feel
sad or like let's get rid ofthis anxiety like that undertone
of Hey, you should be able toget yourself out of this
anxiety, but seeing peopleinside of.
(07:05):
Them right.
Systemic racism or all the ismsand just the world we live in
today, that just seems to be soheavy, you'll actually do harm
to a person by expecting them asthe individual.
That it's their problem.
Right.
acknowledging this is the worldwe live
Kat (07:21):
Yeah.
The context is so fuckingimportant, right?
Val (07:24):
yeah, for sure.
Kat (07:26):
so my group of queer friends, we all, you know, felt
all of our feelings as best wecould on, Friday when the news
hit.
But then by Saturday we had allplanned this pretty epic pool
party.
It's also pride weekend in thebay area this weekend.
And So a lot of people weredoing pride events and things.
And but yeah, we spent the dayenjoying substances and sunshine
in the pool at like a backyardrented pool again.
(07:47):
Yes.
And it was that thing where wewere co-regulating together.
We were like enjoying eachother's company and we were
enjoying just taking a breakfrom how heavy the world felt,
you know, Man.
It was such a gift and it's,it's that kind of shit that like
helps me stay afloat.
Val (08:04):
that I helped me stay.
now I was suing you before youdid take your top off in the
Kat (08:06):
the
Val (08:06):
right?
Kat (08:09):
I did not take my, nobody took their jobs off.
Oh my God.
Actually, though, this ishilarious.
It's the broad daylight, right?
And it's like, we've rentedsomeone else's backyard.
There are humans that arestrangers to us inside their
home.
That's how you rent.
You rented backyard.
It's called swiftly.
Yeah, But they don't, they don'tvacate their home just because
you're using their backyard.
Right.
Wow.
So anyway,
Val (08:29):
I would vacate
Kat (08:29):
someone at the party was like, oh my God, I wanna do like
a night swim, maybe naked.
And they're like, definitelynaked.
And so we're like, oh yeah,well, that's gonna be like, we
have to rent a whole home.
Right.
And then like have the backyardpool, because that would be just
not okay to have people inside.
And then like everyone's gettingnaked in their pool.
Oh my God.
Val (08:49):
That's an extra charge.
Kat (08:50):
that cuz I'm like, I was like, no, Val.
And I was like, oh
Val (08:54):
Actually.
We did plan
Kat (08:55):
about that.
Val (08:56):
another time.
Kat (08:59):
You know, me too well, Val.
Oh, friends.
Val (09:00):
I do.
Oh friends.
Well, we wanna encourage you tojust take the time you need to
take care of yourself, yourloved ones.
I think, there's time forresting.
There's time to put it aside.
And there's a tide for actiondonation activism, all of those
things, if we're a part of thecollective, what are we going to
do?
And also I think remembering.
(09:21):
The most marginalized, right?
how it's affecting, the mostmarginalized among us, us,
Kat (09:26):
process.
And I've heard some interestingtalks about how we engage in
activism.
And this is something I I'vereally taken in for myself.
It's that when I feel triggeredby the state, The world I am
more effective.
I am more capable, affectingchange when I first sort of meet
with myself and what comes upfor me, mm-hmm then what happens
(09:47):
is, is my ability to be presentand to be not in a triggered
state then whatever action stepI'm feeling attracted to, or is
shiny to me, like this is theyes.
In my body.
Mm-hmm I just have more to giveto that versus when we are
reactionary, cuz we're triggeredit's very triggering
information.
The state of the world istraumatic.
(10:07):
Right?
I just wanna say to us, let'sjust spend a little time tending
our
Val (10:12):
yeah, no, that's good.
Kat (10:12):
selves and do that in loving community.
All right, well, what are wegonna do?
What's in front of us to do, andthen, yeah.
So tend yourself, put the, putthe mask on yourself first.
Val (10:21):
Sure.
As you're talking, I'm thinkingabout our shared Christian
background about evangelizingand how there was no tending to
yourself.
Or like, it always felt like youhad to do it.
And there was only one way to doit.
With no care for yourself.
And so I think we can go intoactivism.
I think it's important for us toact and be active in tearing
(10:41):
down systems of oppression.
There are some people that.
In your face activism.
That's how their body's wired.
Yeah.
They're that protector that'stheir thing.
Right.
And then people find other waysto be helpful and use their
gifts.
Yeah.
It's like, I also wannaencourage everyone, like it's
okay.
It's okay.
To find a way that feels likeit's moving in the way.
Obviously we challenge ourselvesand we get out of our comfort
(11:04):
zone, but.
There's lots of different waysto be involved and to do action,
Kat (11:09):
right?
Yeah.
And, oh, that's so good.
Val, thank you for showing that
Val (11:12):
Oh, well sure.
No.
So we want you to enjoy and wehope that this episode is
helpful.
We talk about collectiveeffervescence.
Ooh.
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Kat (11:45):
It's like you're a
Val (11:45):
dating doula.
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Val (12:23):
All right.
So we're gonna jump into thistopic
Kat (12:26):
Yay.
Val (12:27):
I know that we've been talking amongst ourselves about
doing sort of a Woohoo episode.
Kat (12:33):
I know I really do identify as a Woohoo bitch.
Like it's on all my datingprofiles.
there's only two.
I only have two,
Val (12:44):
Yes.
Like you have gone from our,Pentecostal evangelical spirit
filled background in church.
Right.
And you've, you've been checkingon some wild shit.
Woo stuff.
I've DIPP my toes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Eclectic, eclectic.
Woo bitch.
I've dipped my toes.
Just, just a tiny bit.
Yeah.
Kat (13:04):
Wait, wait, wait, I wanna say earlier today you're like,
is mercury retrograde over yet?
Val (13:08):
I was like,
Kat (13:10):
I was like, yes, Val, it ended a while ago.
Val (13:14):
like, things are still feeling pretty wild what's
happening.
But yes, I was like, oh yeah,three or four planets, like
blocking each other in a row.
Yeah.
That's gotta affect
Kat (13:23):
something.
Val (13:24):
Listen.
I was one over, maybe more byscience.
I think science helps me getinto the boob bitch because I
had some nurse friends that saidmore births happen
Kat (13:34):
right.
Val (13:35):
at the full moon.
And I was like, why?
And they're like, whoa, cuzthere's water in your womb.
And the tides are affected.
Kat (13:43):
Yeah.
I like what modern science sortof like
Val (13:46):
Val, right, right.
What, what we've known.
So we wanted to talk about thatin the intersection of we've
been talking about big topics.
Yeah.
Grief, breakups,
Kat (13:55):
right?
Our relationship with our bodyfucking
Val (13:58):
narratives about our bodies.
Yeah.
Oh, that seems
Kat (14:02):
and deconstructing from like, not just religious
systems, but like our cultural
Val (14:05):
that
Kat (14:06):
that don't serve us.
Yes.
How do we make these shifts?
Val?
These are big shifts.
Val (14:10):
what I'm asking you.
Stop fighting me.
Kat (14:18):
what I'm asking you.
Stop together.
I got some ideas.
Val (14:20):
Yes you do.
That's what I'm saying.
We're just drawing that out ofyou.
Yeah.
you and I have had someconversations recently about
needing that shift needing toshake something up, needing, a
big push, like a breakthrough.
Ooh.
Another word would be
Kat (14:34):
breakthrough breakthrough.
of
Val (14:35):
need a breakthrough, a shift, moving things around.
Kat (14:38):
Definitely.
Val (14:39):
So, how do you make that happen?
And I know, when you were, atsort of one stage of the breakup
process, you were like, I wantsome help, but I don't want a
therapist.
and I didn't take events, butyou're like, I want a
supernatural
Kat (14:54):
right Well that was still I was so desperate to try to
understand, that experience, cuzit felt so profound.
It felt very.
Spiritual the, connection I hadwith that person.
So if it felt to like divinewhile I was experiencing it, I
needed like, a divine doula tohelp me make the transition.
If that's done, then I need Idon't know.
(15:14):
I needed to put it in aspiritual framework for me too,
as part of my
Val (15:18):
Sure.
Oh, that makes sense.
No, I think that's awesome.
And I'm also gonna be a littlebit of a brat.
I truly was not offended whenyou said that, but then later
you're like, I've been listeningto the podcast and the things
that you said were reallyhelping me.
I'm like, yep.
Kat (15:31):
know.
Okay.
This is totally a side note.
This goes back over to
Val (15:34):
Yeah,
Kat (15:35):
Yeah but I will say, in the most intense parts of the grief
I was feeling around thebreakup, I was listening to us
talk to each other in ourpodcast over and over and over
again, cuz it found it socomforting.
Amazing.
Yeah.
And it was funny cuz it was justlike, you're alone in your work
on something and, and it's easyto get real sad about stuff.
And then there's.
(15:55):
Possibility too, that some ofit's the ADHD where I need, kind
of high stimuli.
Like if I'm like cooking in thekitchen Mm-hmm It doesn't feel
good if there's not some sort ofnoise.
And sometimes I need more thanjust music
Val (16:04):
yes, no, I'm married to a human jukebox there's not one
second of the day that there'snot
Kat (16:11):
Right, And so you and I, and our podcasts were like
helping me co-regulate all thattime.
So, yeah.
Val (16:18):
that's so beautiful and actually kind of meta, like I
Kat (16:20):
I know
Val (16:21):
it's kind of what we're talking about.
You actually using the podcastfor helping
Kat (16:25):
That's
Val (16:26):
That's amazing.
Thank you for sharing that.
I love it.
I love
Kat (16:29):
it.
so, but then one of the otherthings I did when I was aware
that there was a lot of griefcoming with the end of that
relationship.
And so I was the recipient of anonline.
and I was like, oh my God.
It was like someone advertisingthis, communal, like breathwork
experience Yes.
And, Valerie it, I showed youpictures of it.
It looked exactly like ourPentecostal days where like
(16:50):
you're having this.
Big, very high emotionallycharged sort of alter call
experience.
Yeah.
Right.
And you can feel like there'slike this tangible, like energy
in the air.
Yes.
And everyone is fucking crying.
Everyone's crying
Val (17:04):
even testimonials you're like, it really is like church
there's testimonies after.
Kat (17:09):
So this was a a non-religious version of that.
Oh my God, I know exactly whatthat is.
And it's funny.
The facilitator of it was thisperson from Poland.
And I was like, I don't give ashit about them.
I'm not even gonna read theirfucking bio.
I know exactly what that is.
And I'm gonna fucking go to
Val (17:23):
their fucking bio I know exactly what that is You
actually said to me, I don'tcare if it's a cult or
Kat (17:26):
not, I'm not
Val (17:26):
I'm not gonna get sucked in.
Cause the divine, wait, wait,wait.
Okay.
This is, this is a deep dive.
If you guys have listened toevery single episode, the divine
doesn't give a fuck about dogma.
Kat (17:38):
It doesn't.
Nope.
I stay really far away fromdogma.
I will pick and choose anythingthat resonates in all these
kinds of spiritual modalitiesand world religions, all that
shit, but no dogma ever again.
Fuck you, motherfucker.
No gurus.
Val (17:52):
Sure Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kat (17:53):
I was like, no, I can see it.
And I think, our experience withliving in charismatic, worldview
and paradigm, there really arepeople that like embody a
certain kind of charisma andenergy.
You see it with performers too.
Like, they're aware that whenthey're like singing in front of
stadiums, there's thiscollective energy and they can
fucking move it around.
I also, I was just listening tolike, oh my God.
(18:17):
My biggest celebrity crush ofall I fucking am in love with
that You know what actually Irealized I had like the biggest
crush on them before I even knewit was queer.
this is like a crush crush.
What the fuck,
Val (18:30):
I do remember you saying that actually.
Yeah.
Kat (18:33):
I do remember saying that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway, so Hannah GA me has aaudio book.
10 steps to.
And so I was listening to thisand, she was talking about
Recognizing that she had controlover this huge room.
She had
Val (18:44):
energy control
Kat (18:45):
and then she even talked about how, like, she doesn't
necessarily wanna have controlover that many people.
It was just, just thefascinating.
I was like, I know exactly whatthat
Val (18:53):
is.
Yeah
Kat (18:54):
Yeah.
So when I was in pain and grief,I could tell there's like big
emotion there.
I want to have a communalcatharsis experience.
Yeah.
And it was advertised directlyto me and it was happening the
very next week.
And I was like, yes, that signedme up.
I'm going So
Val (19:10):
can I, just aside before you tell us about your
experience yeah.
You were trying to get me to go,
Kat (19:14):
Oh yeah.
I was like, let's do thistogether for the podcast though.
Val (19:17):
oh yeah to get the podcast though And I was so down for
like three questions with catand Val goes on an experience.
Oh yeah, yeah.
But I had to work and then I waslike, well, do I shift
everything around?
And I was looking for an answer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then you're like, did youwatch the video?
I sent you of the testimonialsImmediately in my body knew it
did not feel good when Ilistened to those testimonials,
I don't know if I'm gettingtriggered from the past.
(19:38):
It's just too much, but I'mlike, I got my answer cat it's
no, I don't know I'm beingtriggered and you're of course
you're like, that's okay.
But
Kat (19:45):
I went all by myself, like.
Place in downtown Oakland.
And like everyone brings theirlike yoga mat to basically land
the floor in this large venue.
And then.
What they did is they led youthrough breathe this way.
And, the body's kind of amazingin this way.
Like, there are lots of way toget into a deep meditative
space, right?
A subconscious space.
(20:06):
And then you and I haveexperienced this because of our
Pentecostal days.
We had experience this calledbeing like slain in the spirit
mm-hmm Sometimes someone wouldpray for you.
And there would be like a surgeof energy.
Val (20:16):
Mm.
Kat (20:16):
And whether we were conditioned to expect it to
happen or whether it was reallyjust this authentic reaction or
response to this energy surge,like it would knock you down.
Yeah.
And then, then you'd have likepeople that were like prepared
to they'd be behind you, readyto catch you and lay you down
gently.
And then all the modesty policeare like, Here's a, blanket And
so my experience of that.
It was always really a positiveexperience.
(20:37):
I would be like on the groundand I would feel if I really
wanted to move my body, Iprobably could, but it would
like take a lot of effort, but Iwould feel myself sort of in
this sublime space whereeverything in the world felt
okay.
There was a deep sense ofstillness and and unconditional
love and acceptance.
Mm.
There was always like praise andworship music kind of in the
(20:58):
background.
And it was just this reallyfucking cool space.
Mm.
And I've had experiences, inmore recent years where I can
achieve that kind of.
Space with just meditation, butlike, there's something more
powerful when you're doing it ina collective.
And so I'm telling you when Isaw this thing, I was like that
and see again, we listened toour bodies.
My body was like, yes.
(21:19):
And it was such a cleared loud.
Yes.
and I think it's fascinating.
It was a clear loud.
No for you.
Right.
And just that again, likethere's space for both of that.
Right, right.
Because everything is not foreverybody.
Right.
And that's totally fine.
the event ended up going reallywell.
I didn't have any expectationsexcept for, I knew that it would
be an opportunity to have.
(21:39):
The synergy of multiple peoplekind of doing their own private
Val (21:43):
Mm
Kat (21:44):
We're all, we're in a collective environment.
So like this one person isleading it and saying, breathe
these ways, but you can hearother people having like big
emotional responses and there'smusic playing pretty loud.
And then they're, they'releading you, so you don't have
to engage your, your thinkingmind too much.
And again, it's just breathing.
There's they're like they havesome sort of formula for it, I
guess.
You know?
And I was like, I don't care.
Like I'm, here for the ride.
(22:05):
Right.
Yeah.
But it, I did end up having areally profound experience and
it really.
Like move a lot of, griefthrough me in sort of a, fast
expedient kind of way.
And it doesn't mean that I wasimmediately over the breakup or
anything.
I still had lots of things toprocess, but it was sure it was
really a cathartic event.
Val (22:23):
That's so good Yeah Yeah.
Well, we wanted to talk a littlebit more too today about just
the power of, that collectivemm-hmm And then when you add in
the spiritual too, right?
Like in the churches that, I wasinvolved in, we would do these
sort of healing weekends.
Totally.
Right.
why couldn't you just.
Have one night.
Why are retreats so powerful or,popular, like getting together,
(22:46):
setting aside the time, right.
Spending the
Kat (22:49):
There's the intentions in two right the intentions, So
it's the collective, there issomething about like the synergy
of multiple people with thisshared intention.
That's really, really powerful.
Val (22:58):
All these different spiritual things.
I had heard some teaching evenwhile I was still in the church
about how the charisma, thecharismatic gifts were given.
To everyone.
Yeah.
Not just, you know, the quoteChristians or so even being
inside Christianity, believingthat these gifts are out there
everywhere.
Right, right So I already hadthat in my worldview.
Kat (23:18):
Sure.
Val (23:19):
Right.
And then you start seeing itright.
So you were talking about justthis feeling that overcomes you
in the spirit.
Right?
Some people had visions, right.
Or just can see pictures.
Get words or even a psychicability of like, this is what I
see in the future for you.
Right.
Or just words of wisdom or
Kat (23:37):
Or an intuitive, there's a lot of like quote, secular
spiritual words that we had allthese things in the church that
I'm like, oh yeah, like I'm aspiritual, intuitive.
Absolutely.
I'm a fucking mystic.
Absolutely.
Right.
I don't super identify as apsychic because none of the
stuff that I the mysticism Iplay in isn't really about, it's
not future focused.
Yeah.
But yeah, we still have allthose
Val (23:58):
What's really funny is like, you've gone past the
future.
You're like in anotherdimension.
Kat (24:02):
my God.
That's true.
Val (24:03):
That's true.
You're in a different construct.
Kat (24:05):
I don't, it's hard to live in this world anymore.
it sounds so dumb, but it'sreally true.
Val (24:14):
That's I think we make a good
Kat (24:15):
Care
Val (24:16):
cause I can get into that, but like I think I still, my Fe
feed are firmly
Kat (24:21):
I'm just I, I'm not grounded at all.
Val (24:25):
no, I think it's amazing.
It's so good.
Yeah.
We also wanted to talk about.
Well in that is like thiscommunal catharsis, right?
Yeah.
Right.
And I think that event you wentto, I think I'm sort of private.
Yeah.
Still a prudish if you'velistened to other
Kat (24:42):
episodes.
Val (24:42):
So I think like you, you described it exactly perfectly
that it is a communal spacewhere you go to do private
Kat (24:50):
very private, deep shit.
People are wailing and crying,
Val (24:53):
are wailing crying.
Kat (24:54):
I love that shit.
Val (24:55):
I think I like to do my private work in the private and
I get this sort of likesecondhand embarrassment.
It's like, I know like ifsomeone's wheeling so much, I.
Oh, my gosh.
Kat (25:06):
that's funny.
I'm not embarrassed by shit
Val (25:08):
I know you're not,
Kat (25:09):
Oh my God.
I was definitely loud and verydemonstrative in my like little
individual space.
And at the end, This lady cameup to me and I felt like she was
being kind of condescending, cuzI was like, I'm good.
But she was like, you having anexperience.
Huh?
And I was like, mm-hmm I'm gladI came.
(25:31):
cuz she thought it was the firsttime.
And I was like, listen, youdon't know anything fucking
about me I'm like, I don't needyour fucking hug.
I got what I needed.
It sounds so terrible.
Like, she just looks at me asmaking some assumptions and I
was like, nah,
Val (25:47):
don't know me lady
Kat (25:50):
I don't even live in your fucking dimension
Val (25:54):
the different social time
Kat (25:55):
construct.
Val (25:57):
Oh my gosh.
And you know, like thecatharsis.
Just explaining why, like we dopublic memorials, Or come
together.
Or feel like you have to govisit a place that
Kat (26:07):
something happens Okay So we're getting the bigger topic
here is like these shifts thatwe need to make.
So sometimes it can be aroundlike a hard thing or grief or
mourn, but also it's publiccommunity experience of like joy
and pleasure.
Right.
So we're talking about, Theexperience of going out.
Dancing and, and the energy oflike, everyone is dancing and
moving together.
Like you have parties here andlike we're all dancing.
(26:28):
And that is this sharedexperience that I think does
create shifts.
Right.
And it can be like, oh my God,there's joy in the world.
Oh my God.
I can, this is what my life canlook like,
Val (26:39):
like the week is heavy and then you can shake it
Kat (26:41):
off You can shake it off.
That's why they invented happyhour.
I'm sure of it.
I'm sure
Val (26:45):
I was introduced to a term that I was like, oh, I
Kat (26:48):
can't Oh, it's such a good term.
Thought about this.
It's.
good
Val (26:50):
Collective effervescence is the
Kat (26:53):
term Ooh
Val (26:54):
I coined back in 1912 by like a
Kat (26:57):
Yeah Effervescence is the best word
Val (26:58):
I know.
But Adam Grant, who has writtensome great books he wrote an
article about it during thepandemic about what we're
missing is this collective
Kat (27:08):
Right, right,
Val (27:09):
right, right.
Yeah So, so it could be.
in the every day, comingtogether as synergy yeah.
Coming together for like a,purpose with strangers.
Right.
So when you kind of get in syncwith some of the stranger on the
dance floor, or you're all atMemorial or.
At a sporting
Kat (27:28):
Yes.
Val (27:28):
Oh, the power of these things when I go with my
husband, he's originally fromBrazil and of course it is SA
Romania.
The world stops because of it.
The stock market in Brazil
Kat (27:38):
That's amazing on
Val (27:39):
the days that Brazil plays in the world cup every four
years, I'm like, guys, get ittogether.
they shut down ATMs.
I don't
Kat (27:47):
Oh my God.
ATMs.
Val (27:48):
Yeah.
Yeah,
Kat (27:48):
yeah.
Val (27:48):
Every the, the street, your grandma's
Kat (27:51):
Wow
Val (27:51):
for the team.
Every everybody takes off work.
Yeah.
It is a moving experience and Ifind it fascinating because it's
all for a sport.
We actually schedule vacationsaround world cup every four
years because America doesn'treally get into the party.
There's no effervescence.
There's there's very littlecollective effervescence around
(28:11):
world cup.
And my poor husband, he needsthat.
Yeah, but I love it too.
We go to other countries and iftheir country is in it,
everybody's in the streets.
The cafes set up, TVs outsidegrandmas are yelling at the
screen.
Everyone's cheering.
And it feels so
Kat (28:26):
good right yeah.
I don't think we should poolike, oh, it's just a game.
Like, that's the thing that youand I keep saying, like turning
the hard things in.
Into a game or, looking forplay.
Yeah.
Right.
And I think it is beautiful tolike allow yourself to get swept
up in something that's biggerthan yourself.
Val (28:42):
Oh a hundred percent and that's why it's so big.
Right.
And of course we got it inchurch and a lot of, religious
events, but.
It is such a powerful thing.
And we did, we did lose a lot ofthat in COVID
Kat (28:55):
and, yeah
Val (28:55):
There was a stat I wanted to read, research has found that
people laugh five times as oftenwhen they're with others as when
they're alone, even exchangingpleasantries with a stranger on
a train is enough to spark joy.
I live for that shit.
Yeah.
I live for making a strangersmile.
Right.
Joking.
Right.
And I, I don't think it'sultraism, I want it.
(29:16):
I want it cuz it feels good inmy buddy.
I wanna talk to the guy attrader Joe's.
I wanna laugh with a strangerabout
Kat (29:21):
something.
Absolutely Yeah.
And that's proof of your likeoutgoing nature too, right?
Mm-hmm but also for ourintroverted friends and I'm kind
of mixture of both anyway, somaybe it's not a complete
stranger or it's a limitedamount of time with the
strangers cuz there can be adraining.
Experience too, but like sure.
the fact that like an experiencethat we have in any kind of
group can like heighten theexperience and allow space for
(29:45):
these shifts for this elevation.
Mm.
Yeah.
Val (29:47):
I I'm sure you've been at a concert.
I mean, definitely happened atbigger church events, but, you
know, just concerts yeah.
Feeling like that energy rushingthrough your body.
When I was going through justthe worst of the infertility
sadness we'd be at church andduring worship, I, it was so
overwhelming.
I would cry so hard.
I have to leave cuz it was justkind of embarrassing.
(30:09):
To be crying so hard.
And I didn't know if that was aspiritual connection, but then
one day it was the Grammy's andJohn legend, he just sang two
Kat (30:18):
Yeah.
Val (30:19):
I started to tear up.
Yeah.
I mean, could have hormones haveplayed a part?
Yes.
But then we were at some stupidamusement park watching some
play kind of thing.
And the music came on.
I don't know what this musicwas.
Yeah.
I started crying.
I started crying.
Yeah.
I did not let my husband seethat.
Oh, it would've freaked him
Kat (30:38):
out.
He wasn't
Val (30:39):
yet but I think now I can understand it as this collective
energy.
Just being very sensitive tothat and being moved by that
Kat (30:48):
music Yeah And music is moving like, oh yeah, for sure.
I'll cry over music too.
Yeah.
Val (30:53):
Well.
And you talked about thiscollective energy in this being
aware of being able to movearound the energy.
Yeah.
I love worship for 10 years
Kat (31:02):
Totally great Yeah.
Val (31:03):
Yeah.
Every week, right?
10
Kat (31:06):
years.
you know what that feels
Val (31:07):
feels like.
I sound like a jackass say this,but like, I know how to work a
crowd,
Kat (31:10):
it's not a jackass thing.
It's just the truth.
Right?
See, that's old churchy shitbecause
Val (31:15):
is.
Kat (31:15):
You're a fucking awesome human You can control the, the
energy of the room.
Val (31:19):
Well, I had 10 years of that and like people who are MCs
at events and stuff, right.
So that's a long time to dosomething.
I was not manipulative right.
In any conscious way.
It wasn't like ha.
This, and also there was aspiritual realm, I think in this
mixture of music and thisspiritual realm and knowing what
music does to us.
(31:39):
Right.
As
Kat (31:40):
and like the journey that you have a sense of where you
need to take this collective,that's the coolness of it.
Yeah.
Yes.
And I would feel a lot when Iwould be preaching.
I feel sometimes in differentsettings where I'm, talking and
I can feel these things sort ofshift and it's really cool.
You're tapped into something.
Right.
Mm-hmm, something a littlebigger than yourself.
Mm-hmm and you're like, oh, I'maware that in this moment, I'm
(32:01):
the one directing the ship andit's a very awesome experience.
It fills me with awe.
Yeah.
You know, luckily for you and I,we were kind of altruistic by
nature and so we're not usingthis to like, to our own ends.
Yeah.
But like to help foster an
Val (32:18):
experience.
Yeah.
Did you do Al alter calls as apart of your yeah, so right.
The piano music comes on andyou're feeling like what's
supposed to happen in
Kat (32:25):
like laying hands and praying
Val (32:27):
Oh yeah.
Kat (32:28):
Oh yeah.
We're like down there in there.
Yeah.
I mean, I have really positivememories of
Val (32:32):
that.
Sure
Kat (32:32):
Sure.
What's interesting is that, allthis deconstruction from that
worldview, there's so manythings that I was like, I don't
know how to understand thispowerful thing I experienced
though, you know?
And then later.
I was able to see some of thespiritual stuff come back
without that rigid container offundamentalism.
That's why I say so often thatyes, the divine does not care
about dogma, right?
(32:53):
Because all of that isirrelevant to the fact that we
can tap in to an energy that'slarger than just us and in my
mind now, the way I understandit is that we're all connected.
Right?
So we're all part ofconsciousness.
And so that feeling of being.
in, a highly charged spaceenvironment.
And sometimes just being aparticipant and sometimes being
(33:13):
a facilitator mm-hmm you knowand when I went to that
breathwork thing, I knew I wasjust a participant and I didn't
wanna talk to anybody.
But then in the past, there'sbeen these times where I've been
the facilitator where you'vebeen the facilitator and then
you get to hold space for humansto have these cool fucking
shifts.
Val (33:30):
Oh, and you need to have your own it's it's a really
powerful experience.
I mean, and it's probably why Istayed with it for so long.
I mean, well, sometimes we weredoing this once a month, but I
think we ended up with quarterlyholding these weekend
experiences where, women wouldcome together and I mean, they
were getting heal.
Of so much shit.
Right.
And just being able to shift theenergy, move the energy, Kind of
sense what may be going on, whatpeople need to hear.
(33:52):
And it's so interesting that youtalk about moving around the
collective energy.
Because, you know, I used tosing a lot.
And I just recently sang at myhusband's birthday party and I
wanted to get back into it and Iwas thinking about it.
I don't have the best voice.
Kat (34:06):
Well, you have an incredible
Val (34:07):
Well, thank you.
But it's not like, like I reallyenjoy.
moving someone with a song.
Yeah And I think that's what I'mreally good at It's that I know
how to move energy and make youfeel something like I had
neighbors were sitting in myliving room crying,
Kat (34:24):
know Yeah.
Val (34:25):
Because I got a lot of feedback and I think the
feedback was just that like, oh,you helped me get to that
Kat (34:30):
place.
Mm-hmm Yeah, that's a goodfeeling.
I just wanna say about musictoo.
And like, so there's, I'mhearing you say that there's
multiple things at play here,right?
So there's just the power oflike singing your heart out is a
great experience, right?
Mm-hmm and then getting to do itwith, other people or performing
for other people and watchingthe energy move around and kind
of steer that.
But then also.
When we think about things thatyou can do practically to have
(34:53):
some of these experiences likejoining a choir is like a really
good one.
There's all these studies that
Val (34:57):
talk Yes The health benefits.
Kat (35:00):
Yes.
Are the
Val (35:01):
Are singing fucking choirs,
Kat (35:03):
music Oh I
Val (35:04):
Well I did
Kat (35:05):
that I've done it too recently.
Val (35:07):
Totally.
No, it's, it's really
Kat (35:09):
powerful.
it's synergy, it's synergy,right?
It's it's music, which is itsown wonderful, incredible thing.
And then you have like acollective shared experience
with other people for a sharedintention, right.
And it's a beautiful soullifting spirit lifting
Val (35:24):
him well.
So what's interesting in thisarticle, they're saying that
some research shows that maybefind, trying to find your bliss,
your happiness, your joy byyourself might lead to more
feelings of loneliness Sure.
And I mean, in right that's ingeneral, not like the regular
introvert guys leave me alone.
I gotta recharge my battery.
Yeah, that is.
Actually do you know, what'sgood for your gut health?
(35:46):
I started to have a lot of IBS.
Yeah.
And they're like Garling andloud singing is really good for
your gut health.
gonna start getting an choiragain?
Kat (35:55):
Yeah.
Val (35:56):
Again.
Yeah.
Body being so wise, yeah, buthere I wanna read this quote.
I finally found it.
Okay.
Before COVID research showedthat more than three quarters of
people found collectiveeffervescent, at least once a
week, 75% of people and almost30% experienced it at least once
a day.
Wow.
They felt it when they sang incourses, ran in races, quieter
(36:18):
moments of connection at coffeeshops in yoga classes.
Kat (36:21):
Did you know that even a movie can accomplish that for
you?
Right?
Like going to a movie theater.
Val (36:27):
Yeah.
I balled at the end of onemovie.
Yeah.
Of course, it was about racialinjustice and tragedy.
Yeah.
And there was one clip at theend.
Right.
And one older black lady kind ofyelped or, how old, like, kind
of in pain.
Yeah.
I getting
Kat (36:43):
chills now
Val (36:43):
talking about it.
I just started weeping becauseit's that click.
Of experience.
Yeah.
Ah, it also goes into justwitnessing and holding space for
someone else's pain, the magicof therapy or any other healing
or your friendships that feelhealing is when you're seen
yeah.
Shame.
We know shame can exist onceit's been shared right.
(37:05):
It's been exposed.
Yeah.
Right.
Kat (37:08):
So beautiful.
Okay.
So last episode, we're talkingabout like how to like rebuild
your relationship with yourbody, you know, mm-hmm and so
like just recently I was invitedto like specifically a fat queer
pool party where the peoplefacilitating, the party.
They, did the thing on swiftly,you know, like you can rent a
backyard pool Oh wow Yeah.
So these two queer people wholive in fat bodies were like,
(37:30):
yeah, I just wanna like swimaround in the pool with other
people who also identify as fat.
And again, it's like theycreated a space and a container
for a fucking amazing sharedexperience of just joy and just
pleasure.
Safety of you could be whereveryou were on your body journey,
but you are looking at otherpeople around you that are like
feeling good on their body,right.
(37:51):
In non-normative bodies, right?
Yeah.
So, or, you know what we wouldcall like straight size or
typically appealing bodies,right?
Whatever.
Like the mainstream culture saysis acceptable.
You've got all of us runningaround.
You know, two pieces and like,and people are queer and like so
you've got like folks that havelike recently had top surgery
and, you know, I mean, not sorecent that they can't swim, but
like, you know what I'm saying?
(38:11):
Like non-normative and it's justsafe and everyone's having a
fucking, great time.
Oh my God.
That's a beautiful collectiveexperience.
Yes Communal effervescence.
Val (38:24):
Dear listeners.
Where are you finding that?
Communal effervescence.
Can we be in the 30% thatexperiences that at least once a
Kat (38:33):
day Right Or
Val (38:33):
in a small way,
Kat (38:34):
put it on your radar as a thing to be
Val (38:37):
Let's start.
Yeah.
Kat (38:38):
Being open.
I mean, do you wanna puttogether a thing, like take all
your close friends and do athing or like host a thing or
like also maybe something assimple as writing it down in, in
a journal or something like,okay, I'm gonna put this out in
the world or on the universe oflike, oh, I'm recognizing that I
need a shift in my relationshipwith my body.
I wanna.
Space with other humans.
That's very specificallyliberation, Body positive,
(39:01):
whatever words you like, Yeah.
And maybe it's another thing.
Maybe it's grief yeah.
so I can have the assistance ofsynergy from other humans in
whatever shift is going on orwhatever shift I'm looking
Val (39:12):
help Yeah.
Well, and, I mean, I'm noscientist but you know, Adam's
bouncing off each other.
Yeah.
And like the energy that motioncreates and all of us together.
Right.
Mm-hmm I, you even said that tome, was it last night where
you're like, okay, your energyis kind of helping me pull
myself up a little bit out of abad mood or whatever was Right.
(39:34):
So I think even prioritizingmaking space, also the intention
there's research around this,that.
If you are aware that the thingyou're doing is good for you
and, and health promoting, youget way more health benefits is
so wild.
So knowing like, no, my choirpractice or, my softball team,
my pickle ball.
(39:55):
Yeah.
Let me say this first, before Imove on, because of course I got
a mention pickleball This is anarticle I found somewhere
pickleball has the unifying feelgood spirit of family game
night.
True.
The potential for a Zumba classis caloric burn true.
And the vitamin D of a day atthe beach.
And I've always asked, like, whydoes it feel so fucking good?
(40:15):
It's communal effervesce painfulIt's communal effervescence.
Kat (40:20):
Totally I've got something coming up.
I'm super excited about.
It's called queers of theFatosphere and so it's like a
live performance.
Ooh.
Of like fat queer performers,just comedy and, I know a couple
of the performers, but I'm justso excited and it's, in San
Francisco and, you know, I don'tgo out to the city that often.
But yeah, just I'm gonna sharespace with other people that
(40:40):
like use some of the sameidentifiers that I use to be
like, entertained, to be likesupporting people that I care
about and believe in and justlike them expressing themselves
creatively.
And I can't wait.
Val (40:52):
Yeah.
Exciting.
Communal effervescence,
Kat (40:55):
communal EFSS since Oh man.
oh,
Val (41:02):
I love
Kat (41:02):
it.
Yeah.
In service to whatever is goingon in our life, you know, like
again, Last week.
I feel like we did a pretty goodjob of explaining, like we gotta
engage in our own journey.
Right.
And so much of this work isinside Yeah.
But the both and is, Hey, weactually need one another and we
don't just need one or two closepeople in our lives.
(41:23):
We need the collective.
We need the groups of humanssometimes.
Val (41:28):
a hundred percent.
And that's some of the critiqueof like doing your individual
work.
Yeah.
We do need to be in service toeach other and looking out for
one another.
Right.
But from that same article Iwrote down that emotions are
inherently social weavingthrough society and
Kat (41:44):
Wow Yeah.
Okay.
Val (41:47):
Wow.
Yeah.
And I think there, it really isright.
A social.
Component to emotions.
We have some emotions inisolation of course, but a lot
of the emotions we're evenhaving in isolation come from
our interactions with otherpeople.
Right.
Sure.
And when we have them, right, wewanna share them with
Kat (42:02):
people So like your laughter is doubled and your,
sorrow is, halved.
Right?
What's that phrase,
Val (42:07):
Oh, I don't know,
Kat (42:08):
but I Yeah.
Val (42:09):
Ooh that's
Kat (42:10):
beautiful.
I know, This whole conversationis bringing me a lot of pleasure
though.
Val (42:17):
was that a hint?
Yes.
Ah, so good.
Kat (42:20):
Thank you for suggesting this topic.
Val (42:22):
Dear friends We hope that maybe something sparked like an
everyday practice or every weekpractice, or if you're looking
for a breakthrough you'reneeding.
To shift something.
Yeah.
Look to a communal space.
Yeah.
Or some sort of spiritual tapinto that
Kat (42:41):
And we wanna be really clear, like it literally can be
anything, and here's the otherthing to piggyback on last
week's episode?
Try to be aware in your body,when an invitation crosses your
path just be like, oh, how's itfeel in my body to imagine going
to
Val (42:53):
this?
Mm.
Kat (42:53):
mm-hmm and then sometimes we'll get like a loud yes.
Or a loud, no, but sometimesit's in that middle.
Wrong and that's okay.
But take a little risk here andthere, like try this thing out,
like try something new, like,
Val (43:03):
Yeah.
Use your imagination.
Call your BFFs to be like, comeon.
Let's think of a ritual orsomething we can do together or
Yeah.
Even, like they can be fun.
Like I follow somebody thatthey're like, we're in Iceland
for my, girlfriend's divorce
Kat (43:17):
trip.
Oh my gosh Yeah
Val (43:19):
gotten divorced do that.
Right.
So there's so many differentthings that can help you shift
Yeah It's been so good to bewith you today,
Kat (43:27):
Yay
Val (43:27):
So to close this out, you know, we've been talking a lot
about what we've been learning,how we've been shifting, right.
What's bringing you pleasure
Kat (43:36):
Well, I mean, the pool party that I got to go to, I
think is still just like just abright fucking highlight.
It feels really good to sharespace with people who are also
comfortable in their skin.
Yeah.
And and so you're not like theodd one out cuz you live in a
non-normative body.
It was fun.
Got all that vitamin D welaughed so much.
Maybe there were some substancesit is a good fucking day.
(44:00):
how about you Val?
Val (44:00):
You know, I was still really thinking about the few
parties we've thrown and just Iactually think I'm getting
pleasure about thinking aboutmaybe some of the events we're
gonna
Kat (44:09):
in the future.
Mm.
Yeah.
Some great ideas percolating
Val (44:11):
yeah.
Sort of dreaming about thefuture mm-hmm When you know, it
can do good or help people.
Right.
That's what really feels reallyamazing.
So as we're talking, I'm kind ofthinking back to some of these
things.
I am getting excited kind ofgetting back to that and using
those
Kat (44:28):
Uhhuh
Val (44:29):
to.
Change.
What did you say before?
Like
Kat (44:31):
Well, I talk about like limiting suffering.
There's less suffering in thewhole world.
Val (44:34):
less suffering in the whole wide world.
Kat (44:36):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yay.
I love you, Kim.
I love you Val Bye.
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