Deconstructing Depression

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.

Deconstructing Depression_va (00:33):
Oh my

Kat (00:34):
Yeah.
Oh.

Deconstructing Depression_ (00:36):
your friend.

Kat (00:37):
Yay.
Hi everybody.
Oh, I thought you were saying hito them.
You're saying hi to me.

Hi everybody.

Kat (00:46):
you guys today.
We're gonna talk aboutdepression.
Yeah.
We're just we're deconstructing.
It is what we're doing.
We're deconstructing depression.

Deconstructing Depression (00:54):
Sure.
Yeah.
I

Kat (00:55):
I know

Deconstructing Depressi (00:56):
talking about it.
We're normalizing it.
We're getting the word out tothe peoples.

Kat (01:00):
Yeah.
There's lots of kinds.
We're gonna tell you about thekinds

lots of kinds wants around with you.

Kat (01:07):
I think I'm a little slap happy I was outside on your back
deck.
tell us about living my best

Deconstructing Depression_v (01:11):
you pleasure, friend.
What's

Kat (01:13):
Oh my God.
Well, first of all, you offer tomake us a capris salads.
And I was like, I don't want asalad.
Thanks.
Yeah.
And then you described to me indetail, what you were putting
together.
And I was like, oh my God, thatsounds amazing.

like, this bitch doesn't want my

Kat (01:27):
salad.
I was like, yes, I do.
I'm so sorry.
And so, and I was like, do youmind if I go sit on your back
deck while you work on that?
And you're like, yes, go ahead.
So you're inside.
Making this wonderful caprissalad.
I took a picture.
I'm gonna post it on theInstagram.
Oh, that's so good.
Why are you so talented at allthe things and you make
everything beautiful.
It's so great.

it's cuz I'm highly sensitive.
It makes me happier to see itall

Kat (01:47):
all fancy.
So I'm on your bank deck andthere's lots of fun sunshine out
there.
And I spend the summer in poolsas much as I possibly can.
I, I swim all year round here.
We live in California, and myjourney with my like body
liberation, I have beenconsistently.
Gravitating towards smaller andsmaller swimsuits mm-hmm And so,

(02:07):
yeah, so now I'm in two piece,like first was in like a two

must be very

Kat (02:10):
exciting.
I know.
So like, but living in like anon-traditional body, like in a
very fat body it's been thisjourney where like, yeah, so
like wearing a two piece was abig deal.
so the two piece starts offbeing like a tankini and like a
swim skirt.
Right.
So it's two pieces, so it's alittle less cumbersome than a
big old one piece.
But then I was like, I just wantbriefs.
This is dumb And so then andthen also, like, I just want

(02:33):
like a regular bikini top.
This is just, you know, it'slike a lot of wet fabric, you
know?
Yes.
And so yeah, so anyway, I'm onyour back deck and I was.
Oh, it's so nice.
Oh, the Sunshine's so good.
I've been swimming in twopieces, you know, all summer.
And I was like, oh, I'm wearinga sports bra.
I'm like I'm gonna take my shirtoff.
I know.
And I was like, yeah, I knowsome of your neighbors, cuz

(02:54):
you've had like parties here andthe way you're set up is the
neighbors can all sort of seeeach other in this back area.
Yeah.
And so I was like, I don't mind,I don't mind if these, people
I've met once or twice, observeme and just, what would
essentially be like a swim top.
I was just like vibing out tosome like great mellow music.
And so I was like, look at me.
Oh my God.
I'm like so amazing.
That just that I feltcomfortable.

(03:15):
Yeah.
And I was getting all thisfantastic vitamin D and then I
came inside and I ate the mostamazing salad.
I'm not depressed.

Yes.
First of all, this, a tie intoone of our earlier episodes, sad
bitches give vitamin D I thoughthow perfect that you were on the
deck, getting your vitamin D youstill got your gummies.

Kat (03:34):
I do.
I still have them?

Deconstructing Depressio (03:35):
That's so

Kat (03:36):
I, them, mm-hmm,

You know, what's bringing me
pleasure is the produce ofCalifornia.

Kat (03:41):
yes.

And so a great heirloom tomato,

Kat (03:44):
Oh my gosh.
So Goodar.

some fresh I put some peaches in

Kat (03:48):
there.
The peaches was the winner.
Some

prou.

Kat (03:51):
oh, Jesus

Or if I was really being Italian,
I'd say pro shoot

Kat (03:55):
Peruz I love that.
you guys missed the handgesture.
I know she did the hand gestureeverybody.

it and then yes, I do.
I go all the way to, to Sonomafor this special lemon oil that
they, crush the olives and thelemon RHS together.

Kat (04:11):
My goodness,

fig BSO

Kat (04:13):
How is this party happening in my mouth right now?
It's too much.
Goodness.
I was so happy.

it is it's those little pleasures.
It's those things we've beentalking about.

Kat (04:22):
yeah, I know.
like

the seasonality and just it being
beautiful.

Kat (04:26):
Absolutely.

It's such a great treat.

Kat (04:29):
And then again, for me, like I added the pleasure of
feeling really comfortable in myown skin.
Oh my God, I, I could take myshirt off.
Like that's new.

Deconstructing Depression_val (04:36):
a thing.

Kat (04:38):
that's that fun?
Yeah.
it's sweat.
So thank you for that amazinglunch.
I loved it.
Aw, Mm-hmm welcome.
to your friends.
We're

about depression and I think neither
of us are feeling especiallydepressed.
So maybe like that is helpful.
I don't know.

Kat (04:57):
Oh yeah.
To talk about it when you're notactually depressed.
Definitely.
Yeah.

And it's something that, you know,
is sort of a, almost a universalexperience.
Right.
So I figured it's

Kat (05:07):
human experience to be sad for prolonged period of time.

Okay.
I wanna get to commercial nowbecause remember that one time
where cat was crying and

Kat (05:15):
then I like, let's to commercial.

How I thought that that was a good

Kat (05:18):
idea.

So now I'm really scared of doing
that again, cuz I don't wannahurt anyone's

Kat (05:22):
you.
So

let's get to commercial now, before we
start talking about

Kat (05:25):
depression, depression,

we'll be right back.

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Kat (05:46):
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Okay.
That was great.
So good.
We Got that

Kat (06:27):
out of the way in there.
Hello?

buy cat's art.
It's

Kat (06:30):
Aw.

Yes,

Kat (06:31):
My art made it possible for me to sit in your deck with no
shirt on

Yes

Kat (06:37):
yeah, it's true.
It's true.
I love it.
Oh yeah.
Thank you.
That looks so good.
That's great.
Yeah.
Yeah.

So depression here we are.
Yeah.
Well first of all, I guess Iwanna say, you know, it is part
of the human

Kat (06:49):
experience.
Absolutely.
it

And if you interact with other
cultures in other countries,People in the world are sort of
dumbfounded by the Americanpursuit of happiness or I would
say the American sort offixation

Kat (07:03):
happiness.
Oh, Right?
Well, it's in the constitution,right?
oh, it's.
I was like, okay, That's funny.

No, it really is.

Kat (07:12):
well, that's why it's, woven into the fabric of, you
know, the pursuit of happinessis right.
Is that the constitution,whatever we wrote to the,
declaration of independence it'sin there.

There we go.
Good job.
Good job.
No,

Kat (07:25):
Some old fucking

Other countries are like, why are
Americans, like, what is thisfascination?

Kat (07:29):
Right.
And,

you know, we've also talked in
previous episodes about sort ofthe negative connotation or
stigma that, sort of the quotenegative emotions get.
Right, right.
Yeah.
or even how women are told tosmile

Kat (07:41):
Oh, fuck you.
I know.

or if you're like just kind of
grumpy or just not happy people,like, feel like they need to fix

Kat (07:50):
it.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Oh, you referenced the book called
bittersweet.

Kat (07:54):
Mm.

right.

Kat (07:55):
I found it really beautiful to, to have more people having
the conversation about holdingspace for the tender and like
when we're good at that.
Mm-hmm it, it feels bittersweet.
It feels sweet.
And I've had, you know, a numberof challenging things happen
just in the summer.
Right.
Mm-hmm and, and to have thehumans in my life that I love
and care about, like hold spacefor me as I'm processing,

(08:17):
whatever, the hard thing is thatI'm dealing with, there is a.
Profound sweetness in it.
Right.
And God, that's so much moreappealing.
than, you know, what I would sayis like a capitalistic driven
pursuit of quote unquotehappiness, which is, you know,
like consumerism and, you know,do more and play hard and all
that,

thing will make you ha buy this thing
to make you happy.

Kat (08:39):
Totally.
Yeah.
And I'm not saying thatsometimes purchasing things
doesn't give us the dopaminehit, like for sure.
Yeah.
Right.
You have that gorgeous shirtYeah.

cause I was saying, fuck you to my
husband.
sorry.
There's a backstory to that,yeah, no, for sure.

Kat (08:55):
Yeah.
So I'm not saying that's, that'sinherently wrong, but I'm just
saying like when we are willingto sit with what's challenging
and then share.

it,

Kat (09:03):
With kind people that are emotionally present with us,
the, the kind of connection thathappens is very sweet and then
again, like I talk about this anawful lot, because, you know,
depression runs in my family andI've had you know, a lot of
firsthand experience withdepression.
And when I started a deeppractice of self-compassion, I
noticed that any experience Ihad of prolonged sadness just

(09:27):
was a lot less intense.
Like it just didn't I don't knowhow to explain it, but despair
didn't take hold of me.
And then the, the few times thatI realized I wanted to reach out
for some support, like with thedoctor and get some
prescriptions, it was becausethe despair.
I couldn't cope with it.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Mm, we'll circle back around to sort
of the things that have helpedyou.
Yeah.
You know, manage that.
Cuz you said, some great thingsthere about despair,
hopelessness and just what isdepression, we started out kind
of talking about, you know,sadness is, is sort of a human
experience.
It is a part of life.
Like we're not gonna, avoid thatreally.
And just sort of living of life.

Kat (10:07):
You know what, it's also, it's also reflected to us in
nature, you know?
So like, when you think aboutlike what's dormant in winter
and it's darker.
There's allegories all around usfor like it's okay.
That there's death that's weeksand months long.
It's okay.
That there's this like needingto draw in and and not be like

(10:28):
all shiny, like the summer, youknow what I mean?
Yeah.

And a period where things die, like,
and that, that is natural.

Kat (10:34):
It's natural.
Yeah.
And we don't have to war againstit.
You know,

I've always said our country.
In general, doesn't do a greatjob with grief mourn with death.
We don't have a ton of ritualsthat help us process.
Right.
I think some other cultureshave, many more rituals that can
be

Kat (10:50):
helpful Mm-hmm

in just processing that and making
it natural

Kat (10:54):
and creating some space for it and not demonizing it as
though you should avoid this atall cost and right.
Yeah.
And then You're running awayfrom it, you know, like often in
those, you know, dormant timeswhere those dark places, there,
there can be some beauty in it,

okay.
So there's, there's somedepression that's sort of
situational, something terriblehappens.
There's a death, there's theending of a relationship
difficulties in a relationshipjob your environment, your
neighborhood, your family, your

Kat (11:22):
Yeah.
Loss of any kind grief of anykind.
Yeah.

And then I think there's also, the
kindness may be clinical

Kat (11:28):
mm-hmm

right.
Maybe there, you can't reallypinpoint something that would've
caused you to be

Kat (11:32):
Sure.

Sure.
It feels reoccurring.
So we call those like majordepressive episodes.
Right?

Kat (11:38):
Yeah.
So there's brain chemistry stuffcan equal depression that sure.
You know, needs somepharmaceutical support.
Sure.

Deconstructing Depres (11:44):
something called this.
Well, now it's called dystymia.
That is sort of like a low gradedepression.
Kind of like the EOR feeling,you know, from Wendy, the

Kat (11:53):
I do,

Just kind of this low level, which I,
I saw someone say, and I lovethis.
That's like, well, you knowwhat?
They included EOR,

Kat (12:00):
really did.
he

like, sort of bummed out.
Right.
He was included.
And I love

Kat (12:05):
they weren't constantly trying to cheer that fucker up,
you know,

Deconstructing Depress (12:08):
weren't.
I probably would've tried.

Kat (12:10):
They looked for his tail a bunch.
I feel like I remember that thistail get lost.
Sometimes

love an inclusive story.

Kat (12:16):
I do too.
I do too.
Those sweet little people.

You are gonna talk maybe a little
bit about postpartum depression.
There's also bipolar disorderwhere your brain kind of goes
back and forth between a manicor a hypomanic, episode, and
then it kind of swings back tosort of a depression.
And then there's depression thatcomes with chronic illness,

Kat (12:33):
course.
Yeah.

Is it co-occurring or are we
depressed?
Because our bodies aren'tworking

Kat (12:39):
Well, when you're in extended pain, when you're pain
for a long time, it is just toohard to keep your morale up.
It, it, It takes, it takes a lotfrom you.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.

Well then there's the hormonal
shifts,

Kat (12:51):
mm-hmm right.
For people

have periods and things like there's
also PM, D D, which is a very

Kat (12:56):
intense

form of mood swings around your cycle
and hormonal changes, right?
There's, there's lots ofdiagnoses that kind of have
depression

Kat (13:04):
or anxiety

of linked

Kat (13:06):
Oh, wait, isn't depression also linked to men as they age
like a drop in testosterone canlead to depression too.
Yeah.
So it's not just, you know folksassigned female at birth that
experience hormonal changesthat, that eventually can lead
to depression.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm

I've had this experience of sudden.
Moments or periods of despair or

Kat (13:26):
like deep sadness that yeah.

that feel really terrible.
They don't last too long.
Mm-hmm but it feels like ifyou're in the bay area of
California, that dark

Kat (13:36):
fog Yeah.

and you're like, I need to see the
fucking sun and I

Kat (13:40):
gotta see it.
I dunno if

it'll ever come back

Kat (13:42):
out.
Yeah.

And in those moments, I learned to
tell myself, Hey, you know, thatthis doesn't last, go to bed

Kat (13:48):
right.

And so, you know, I think it's like,
oh, am I depressed?
Well, But you know, thesymptoms, right.
It's not just sadness.
And that's what I was sayingabout people who are socialized
as male.
A lot of times they don't have aconnection to the sadness.
Yeah.
So we are trained, especially

Kat (14:03):
with that

Deconstructing Depre (14:03):
population to look out for other symptoms
and not just the classic.

Kat (14:07):
What are those symptoms

Well, the other ones are oh, I might,
pronounce this wrong, but theAdonia, where you don't have
pleasure anymore and things thatused to

Kat (14:15):
bring oh, right, sure.
Okay.

Loss or change in your appetite less
sleep or change in your sleep?
Sure.
Less motivation

Kat (14:24):
mm-hmm concentration

and what was the other one?

Kat (14:28):
Is anger in the mix of that?

It could be frustration.

Kat (14:31):
Yeah.

Yeah.
Irritability.
That is

Kat (14:33):
definitely oh, sure.

changing your sex drive.
Right.
So all these like changes and itcould be a hopelessness.
It could be despair, it could besadness, but it doesn't always
have to be.

Kat (14:45):
Right, right.
Right.

Like I was working with a client
recently.
Oh, I don't know if I'm superhappy, but it's the low
motivation

Kat (14:51):
and, right.
and,

low energy.
And of course, like, there's somany overlaps into

Kat (14:55):
all of course things, Right.
Yeah.

But there's like a real loss in
function.
Right.
Sometimes like you don't evenwanna take care of yourself.
Oh, totally.

Kat (15:03):
the, telltale sign for me.
Like when you can't get out ofbed.
And you know jumping into, like,I did have some bouts of
postpartum depression and like Ijust remember it being so hard
to get outta bed and thesensation of overwhelm, you
know?

Mm.
Yeah.

Kat (15:17):
Yeah, just the desire to function.
just not being very high.
yeah, yeah.
Dread, I think, dread being abig in the mix there, cuz you
know, when my kids were small Iwas home with them.
My ex-husband would be at work alot that's what it looked like
for me.
And so like, it could have beenrelated to the hormones around
birth, but I felt like it wasmore situational.
Like I stayed postpartum, but itfelt situational too, because I

(15:40):
just, I felt trapped and stuck.
And that the task of caring fortwo very small kids was mine
alone for, you know, 12 hours aday often.
Yeah.
Unless I went and took themsomewhere where there were other
people around, right.
Again, cuz our culture's notreally set up to be, you know,
the way it once was, you have avillage and you know, you have
like your neighbors hanging outwith you and you know what I

(16:01):
mean?
Yeah.
So, well,

we talk about that just for a
second?
Yeah.
I'm, I'm mad at our culture.

Kat (16:06):
I know

I'm mad at our society.
Like I do think about that, likethe way that we've sectioned off
everyone and the way we'vesectioned off even work.
Right.
It's for the most part, eitheryou have to go and get a 40, 50
hour, job or like you're notworking or even retirement.
Or that if you were raising yourkids, back in the back in the
day.
there's more people

Kat (16:26):
around, right.

more communal.
Right.

Kat (16:29):
Yeah.
And obviously that wasn't allperfect either.
Right?
Women don't have as manyoptions, stuff like that, but
what we have done in our cultureis we glorified the nuclear
family in a way that, you know,it, it's not great for anyone
you know, it puts way too muchpressure and expectation on, you
know, the two parents, if youhappen to come from a two parent
home and then, you know, you'rejust, you're isolated more, you

(16:52):
know,

I don't like it.
I

Kat (16:53):
kinda like it.

We've talked about like starting like
a commune, communal living, nota commune.
Like, I don't know.
We're gonna freeze vegetablesand sells out of the road or
like have a spiritual componentor maybe we

Kat (17:07):
will.
maybe.

Yeah, I feel like especially RA and I
are like made for communalliving.
Like we love having peoplearound.
We definitely love like maybethe other episode you asked me
if I, I I would considerpolyamory

Kat (17:18):
winter.
I know

RA was gone, and I didn't get a
chance to say it, but it's likeor, or like communal living.

Kat (17:24):
yeah.

I don't have to be having sex with

Kat (17:26):
those people.
Well, you know, what's reallyfunny, Val.
It's like every queer person, Iknow this is their dream
fantasy.
So everyone is talking aboutlike the queer commune someday,
like, yeah.
And so I'm like, oh, you guyswill fit right in but yeah, like
homesteading and like everyonegets to use the skillset that
they're good at.
Like, I will give haircuts andlike help people resolve
conflict.
That's what I will do.

(17:46):
Oh.
And I'll do like guided mushroomtrips too.
I decided that's gonna be one ofmy like contributions to the
commune.
Yeah.
I can cook soup on soup

Oh yes.
You had soup day.
Okay.
I'll be on

Kat (17:58):
top, but I'm not gonna be the gardener.
That's not my jam.
Yeah.

no, that's

Kat (18:03):
funny.

I feel I experienced some more
depression when I am left aloneor by myself.
Right.
Or like going through lonelierseasons of life.
Right.

Kat (18:14):
Oh yeah.
I mean, we can mitigate ourexperiences of depression when
we do the work to know what itis.
We need to sort of stay afloat.
Right.
So you need as an extrovert,you.
X amount of social engagementregularly.
Right?
I do.
You know, it can't be

Vessence I know I need some deep and
meaningfuls, I need some peoplewho will laugh, like an idiot
with me as my friend

Kat (18:35):
does.
Right?
right.
Yeah.

I do need those

Kat (18:38):
Right.
And then I noticed like, whatwas so challenging about this
season in my life, where my kidswere quite small and I was alone
with them a lot is that I wasnot getting enough alone time.
And nor did I have theexperience of being autonomous,
hardly at all in that window.
And so I'm sure that contributedto some of my depressive
episodes.
Cause I just, I couldn't movefreely about the world.

(18:58):
constantly having small kids intoe and they, their needs like
you're constantly having to giveand give and give, and then I
just wasn't able to meet my ownvery well.

I'd say my first episode with some
depressed feelings or depressedepisode was when I was getting
diagnosed With my chronicillness in

Kat (19:15):
in college, actually, Yeah.

I kind of felt a little zombie,

Kat (19:17):
like, mm-hmm, like I

was like, what is going on?
I remember sitting in thecafeteria, just watching friends
kind of.
Yeah, I really thought I mighthave to withdraw cause I
couldn't focus to write a paperor

Kat (19:29):
something.
Yeah.

And then I guess a couple years
later with my dad sort of sudden

Kat (19:33):
death.

That was the first and the only time
up until this point that I'vereally taken medication.
I was like, I need something.

Kat (19:40):
Right.

I remember my mom saying, I don't
like this one cuz it takes awayyour personality or

Kat (19:44):
like I kinda see myself.
Sure.
Right.

didn't, I didn't stay on it too

Kat (19:48):
long, Right.

but, but remember feeling like I need
something for this prettyterrible pain.
Yeah.
This pretty terrible pain.
And then, just on and off Copingwith with a chronic illness.
I, you, funny enough, right?
Like dear young listener.
if you're there, can you hearme?

Kat (20:08):
Can you

you a little thing that I, like, I
wish I could go back and tell myyounger

Kat (20:11):
self, Yeah.

But it's like the journey, right?
We get so caught up in thedestination, but I was about to
say, you know, I was kind ofdepressed when I was single for
longer than I thought I wassupposed to be.
Right.
I was alone.
Am I ever gonna find anyone one,one find me acceptable because
of our society's standards andblah, blah, blah.
Okay.
I was, depressed then.
And it's like, and then lateron, I'm depressed inside my

(20:33):
marriage too.

Kat (20:33):
too.
Right.

so dear young listener, enjoy the
journey.
It is about the journey and notnecessarily the destination,
right?
Yeah.
So I had some, sadness there.
I don't think I was likeclinically depressed at that
point, and then I've shared onthe podcast that, we went
through a time of infertilityand trying to have children and
just that crossing over withleaving the church.
And then my husband's travel andall of that, like that

Kat (20:57):
intersection, stuff happens at once a lot.
Like, I, I too, like I was like,my dad died and I was newly
dating my ex-husband.
But also like big deconstructionhappening.
That's the thing about religiousdeconstruction or, or what,
anything that can feel like anexistential crisis.
You cannot plan that shit.

(21:17):
So when, when my dad died thedepression was definitely there,
but it was grief.
Right.
And so it was situational.
Grief and depression looked likethe same thing often.
But I, that was my first realexperience with ongoing anxiety.
And it was the first time I everhad like really profound social
anxiety.
So I was at like an event withmy ex-husband and I was meeting
some of his family members.

(21:37):
And it was like at a concerts,and I think I experienced my
first ever panic attack while Iwas there.
I just, it felt like the wallswere caving in on me.
And so, yeah, it's messy, right?

All those things at once.
Yeah.
I thought a lot about like,should I go back on medications

Kat (21:53):
Mm-hmm Yeah,

The deep pain and actually our
friends would joke, like, wegotta go check on you to make
sure you're not in your roomwith the shades down,

Kat (21:59):
on the premise.

And it was kind of a joke, but it
wasn't, you know but there wassome really deep, like, feel it
in your

Kat (22:07):
body.
Mm-hmm

I don't want my life to be like
this.
Like I remember like being bythe beach or in golden gate
park, trying to do my exerciseand just walking and balling and

Kat (22:19):
just like

being that person, cuz my, my emotions
tend to be.
Closer to the surface.
When it Wells up, it's verydifficult.
So I'll be the one like attrader drills, try not

Kat (22:29):
show up and cry

or I, when I was younger and just
first moved here, I struggled alittle bit on that transition.
Right.
My first big

Kat (22:35):
girl, Yeah.

move.
And I used to roller blade atlunchtime through golden gate
park.

Kat (22:40):
Uhhuh.
I remember that.

but I would cry cuz I

Kat (22:43):
I was like, oh,

I'm like, it was probably like the
luckiness monster.
Did you see the girl who rollerblades and cries?
Like, did you see her today?
Oh my gosh.
I saw her last week.
whoa, geez.

Kat (22:53):
if you were gonna offer that girl compassion, what would
you say to her?

I think I'd say you're gonna be
okay.
Like you're gonna figure it out.
Yeah.
It's okay.
Yeah.

Kat (23:02):
Yeah.
And, you know, sometimesoffering compassion to like
younger versions of ourselves.
It's not always verbal, I don'tknow.
I just pictured.
You giving the girl on rollerblades, a hug, you

Oh,

Kat (23:11):
oh's and just enjoying her that's what I mean when I think
about younger selves, right.
Me at different ages.
It's, that's the thing I wannagive me younger me so much.
I just wanna give them some morelike knowledge about being in
your own body and like yeah.
And advocating for your ownneeds and just the know they
self stuff.

(23:32):
And so when I think about someof my past experiences with
depression, I can see how I'mnot experiencing some of those
things.
Not just cuz I live in a stateof self-compassion but also
because I deconstructed fromsystems that were telling me I
was wrong, I was bad.
Right.
Yeah.
And so it's hard not toexperience depression when the
culture you live in isconstantly telling you you're

(23:53):
wrong.
You're bad.
You don't belong.
You're not good enough.
You're not worthy of love.
All those kinds of things.
You know, that's basicallypsychological abuse from our
culture.
Yeah.
Right.
And so if you're experiencingthat, that it's hard not to be
depressed, you know?

Yeah.
I do think I have a lot lesssadness or negative feelings
about my body now.
Sure.

Kat (24:14):
I'm so glad

I, me

Kat (24:17):
too, I know

also, I told you I was gonna rage.
I told you I was gonna rageagainst the church.
about mental health.
Cuz I've sat there.
know, actually I didn't go tochurch very long after I, I

Kat (24:30):
after became a therapist.
Yeah.

But you know, to hear people talking
about how you shouldn't beanxious or depressed, if you

Kat (24:38):
know, there's literally a BI, a Bible verse says, do not
be anxious.
Right.

I guess having, studied mental
health and psychology more.
And like having a high empathysituation going on, I just felt
like myself in people's shoeswere really struggling, I was
sitting there thinking orsomeone who was depressed

Kat (24:58):
or anxious,

really struggling with their mental

Kat (25:00):
health.

then it was like, it's your fault
because you should just, youhave this access, if you really
accessed it, you would be ableto cure yourself.
Mental health is just, is biggerthan that.
Could you be healed?
Of course.
Do you find comfort?
Of course, that's part of a jobas a mental health practitioner.
What's your spiritual beliefs.
What are your spiritualpractices?
How do you find comfort?

(25:21):
What does your religion sayabout this?
What does your spiritual

Kat (25:24):
beliefs.
Sure.
Yeah, absolutely.

that's very valid, but, to say that we
shouldn't have these

Kat (25:29):
things Yeah.
Because,

Of a higher power, I just think it
does more harm.
So I'm sorry if you've ever beenharmed by

Kat (25:36):
the, or yeah.
Shamed, right.
Shame is a terrible motivator.
Shame is destructive in ourlives and disruptive,

So yeah.
Let's talk about ways that we'vefound helpful.
Tell me about the ways you've Iknow you're gonna talk about
self-compassion.
Yeah,

Kat (25:50):
but I was thinking back to when I was first ever
experiencing depression youknow, I was you know, probably a
little bit in college, butmostly in my early twenties is
when I started to acknowledgeand recognize, oh, I'm depressed
or need support.
And so saying it out loud tosomeone, you know, and in my
story, someone else who had youknow, been going to therapy and
we worked together she wassaying, Catherine, you seem like

(26:11):
you're depressed to me.
And I was kind of in denial andalso very not in touch with my
body back then.
Right.
Yeah.
And so I had resistance to thatat first.
But eventually I came around andI was like, oh right, this is
what depression looks like, andI do need support.
And so that was the first timethat I like, you know, reached
out to get therapy.
And then also medication from adoctor.
So.

(26:32):
I did something you're notreally supposed to do those, cuz
I, I didn't have my healthinsurance shit covered really.
Oh.
And so like when I ran out, Ijust stopped cold Turkey.
I know, I know that was notsupposed to do that.
But anyway, just so the firststep was just acknowledging it
to yourself and then seekinghelp.
Right?
Oh, yeah.

that's hard.
I, I have been there too.

Kat (26:52):
Absolutely.

Because a flood of grief comes in.
Like once you admit it, once youacknowledge it, once you see it,
then I think that there's, therecan be relief, but I think
there's

Kat (27:01):
it felt like failure too, though, because of what the
messages we were getting fromour, our subculture, you know?
Yeah, there was definitely theidea that if you're sad or in
despair, you're failing Godsomehow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And failing, maybe even ourculture

Kat (27:15):
too.
Mm-hmm like

at life.
What do you have to be sadabout?
you should be grateful,

Kat (27:20):
right?
But as I've gotten older and Ispent more time, like exploring
healing modalities and differentI have acquired quite an arsenal
skills.
and ways to support myself andways to seek out support, you
know, it's funny cuz we did, wejust have the episode about
drugs, like that has been such afun new discovery.
Every time I think about it, itjust makes me feel excited.
And then something you weresaying earlier too, like

(27:41):
sometimes to have grief, likeyou're referencing like.
Realizing that your life wasn'tthe way you wanted.
And when we feel like stuck ortrapped.
Yeah.
And whatever our life is at thatparticular time, that can be
such good fodder for realdepression, right.
To feel trapped.
Oh, I mean, how do you avoiddespair if you're trapped?

was gonna say if you're trapped,
it's gonna lead to despair and

Kat (28:02):
is, yeah.
Those two are just tough.
And so the thing that just feelsso fun to me is that like, I
feel like I just in the lastyear are so stumbled on this
whole new category of likehealing modalities with
psychedelics.
Right.
The research is so fascinatingand so thrilling that there's a
way to take a substance that'snaturally occurring in the world

(28:25):
and it just opens your brain up,you know?
And so it unstucks, you.

Yeah.

Kat (28:32):
It unstucks you Yeah, There's so many things, right?
The mindfulness and meditation.
I have a lot of friends now whoare practicing Buddhist and I've
noticed that.
My spirituality now is prettyeclectic, but I tend to really
resonate with, people that havea deep Buddhist practice.
And I have this one friend whojust came back from a silent
retreat and they like, yeah,they went away for a full week

(28:55):
where they're with other peopleand they're like basic needs are
met.
But you're, actually not makingeye contact with anybody else.
And no one is speaking and it'sa time of like deeply drawing in
and and just allowing, I don'tknow, allowing kind of.
Stillness.
And I was asking, I was reallycurious.
I've I've done a silent retreaton my own just for like a
weekend I was so fucking chattyright after but never for a

(29:18):
whole week, but I was curioushow that impacted time.
And they had some reallyinteresting to say about how,
like, in some ways it felt slowand then some other ways it was
faster and it was just, youknow, a week is enough time that
you like you're in a whole otherworld, you know, you get into a
rhythm in a different, you know,space it's.
Yeah.

I feel like it's my worst

Kat (29:36):
nightmare.
oh, but that's such a goodpoint.
yeah.
Cause it's not gonna work foreveryone.
What, what you're drawn to, orit's gonna feel good to you is
not, what's gonna feel good toevery.

Thank you for saying that.
Cuz I always feel like, again,we talked about it other day,
like, like I I'm okay with theirbeing things in this world that
I'm afraid of.
Like I don't have to.
Yeah.
I, I I'm okay with being afraidof like jumping out of a plane,
I feel like I should be

Kat (29:58):
be afraid

And I don't need to do that.
I know what

Kat (30:01):
do that.
Gravity gravity happens.
And the

silent retreat, right.
We've been taught this,

Kat (30:09):
we've been taught taught

in Christianity.
And I think in, in our culturethat's like anything that, that
like you feel like, oh

Kat (30:16):
no, Uhhuh,

the thing you should do because

Kat (30:18):
that's just bullshit if you're really supposed to do it,
sometimes you have, you have aninner drive that says a yes.
Even if it's a little scary,sometimes you might have a yes.
If it's scary and then you haveto get support around it.
But if you really just don'twanna do a thing, don't do the
fucking thing.

Yeah.
Well, thank you for saying that,cuz I was like, when you were
talking about I'm like thatsounds

Kat (30:35):
I saw your body language change.
I know

I was trying to sigh really

Kat (30:39):
loudly.

Just

Kat (30:41):
stop it, but that's the point too, is that these healing
modalities, right?
Whatever, whatever you feeldrawn to, or you feel curious
about, like, please try to letthat guide you as opposed to
external information, right?
Yes.
So some people are reallybenefiting from, pharmaceutical
drugs, like you and I both havebeen on antidepressants mm-hmm
But I, I really now prefer notbeing on antidepressants and,

(31:05):
and using other things to, toregulate like meditation and my
deep practice of selfcompassion.
And then co-regulation is areally big practice of mine.
Yeah.
You know, and here I am, like,I'm not in a long-term
partnership, but I have humansin my life that I can
co-regulate with like a fewmonths ago even with my kids,
like we had a roommate move.

in

Kat (31:24):
And she's a long time friend and she's just someone
that is we're good atco-regulating, you know, it has
a really familial energy and Ijust am so glad not to be home
alone, you know, when my kidsare away.
Yeah, yeah.
Or even when my kids are there,like I realized, oh my God, it
was such a relief to not be theonly fucking adult around, you
know, mm-hmm because it's just adifferent kind of energy.

(31:46):
And so, yeah.
I was so grateful when I reallyembraced how valuable
co-regulation was as a, ahealing modality, you know?

It is a valid way to, Regulate your
mood.

Kat (31:59):
Exactly.
Human beings, we just need thatwe're social people, even an
introvert needs some amount ofco-regulation with someone else,
you know?
And not having, like, a longterm partner, like I've been
able to cultivate that within myfriend group.
And again, that's kind of acultural idea where we you know,
we elevate romantic connectionsover other kinds of connections.
Yeah.
And it's a disservice to usreally

well.
And I work with a lot of young,CIS hetero women, right.
Where it's like, look, you aregoing to need your girlfriends.
And in reality, I think mygirlfriends probably calm me
down way more.
I get a lot more co-regulationfrom my girlfriends, but yeah,
that's just that's culture.
Right.
That, that elevates

Kat (32:34):
that.
Oh, totally.

I wanna just point out again,
thank you for saying like yeah,just leave everything that just
like doesn't serve

Kat (32:40):
you.
right.
Or doesn't resonate in some

doesn't resonate.
And I think that that's, ifwe're talking about ways that
we've dealt with depression, Ithink giving up things

Kat (32:48):
that oh yeah.

don't serve us.

Kat (32:51):
or just don't interest you anymore too.
Yeah.
Like, you know, this culturalidea that you have to finish
what you started.
Fuck.
All that.
I listened to someone likejoyfully talk about like the
pleasure of quitting shit.
And I was like, yes, Yes.
Oh, you don't like this one.
I can see it on your face.

no, it's so funny.
It's so funny.
Cuz of course, right.
Cuz the whole ADHD thing islike, can we have a service
where people with ADHD like

Kat (33:15):
train, train the hobbies

hobbies shit that they

Kat (33:18):
dog.
Yeah.
right?
Yeah.
That's so funny.
It's really true.

is funny.
So I love it.
That you're totally embracing.
Like, but no, no, I actually wasstarting to think like it is
true.

Kat (33:27):
Mm-hmm

there, there is this great deep release
to quit something and like whosays you have to do everything
forever,

Kat (33:32):
right?
I know.
Well, okay.
That ties into like whether ornot you're comfortable with
failure.
Right.
And it's just how you framesomething, you know?
So like meaning you make.
yeah, of course.
So like, yeah, I tried somethingout cuz I was curious about it
and then I get into it enoughthat I'm like, mm, no, it's not,
it's not the fit that I thoughtit was gonna be.
So that.
It's not wrong.

No,

Kat (33:52):
I didn't fail.
No, I just got enoughinformation to be like, yes,
pass.
And then I had some experiencesalong the way, you know?
Yeah, Yeah.
Yeah.

Well, and friends, I guess, you know,
we we're on this like selfcentering self-compassion
journey and I know that, well,there's two things, right.
There's situations that we're inthat maybe aren't good for us a
job.
Yeah.

Kat (34:11):
relationship, a

a friendship, a partnership,
right.
Where it was like, Hey, either

Kat (34:16):
somebody, a political regime.

Oh, my

Kat (34:20):
Sorry.
That's True.
Mm-hmm True.
I know.

I think allowing ourselves to
leave

Kat (34:26):
things mm-hmm

or reassess our boundaries.
Right.
can relieve a lot of sadness.
Yeah.
And then there's things thatcan't change, like our
infertility.
I mean, we couldn't change that,like that radical acceptance,
working through imagining adifferent

Kat (34:39):
life.
Right?
Mm-hmm

finding that creativity we're talking
about.
Like, can you imagine, and Itell you this, I say this on the
podcast that we were still goingto church this preacher that we
knew he was visiting and I, Irespected his ability, like we'd
call that prophecy.
Yeah.
He said a lot of deep shit thatI never told him, just about
what I was dealing with RAI and

Kat (35:00):
just

like not getting wrapped up in
someone else's sadness

Kat (35:04):
Oh.

Deconstructing (35:04):
disappointment.
That was really interesting.
Then he said something to theeffect of like, just hold on.
Your life is going to beamazing.
Just not what you imagined.
Oh

Kat (35:17):
wow.
So someone prophesied that overyou.
Yeah.
Your life is gonna be amazing,but just not what you imagined.

just not how you saw it.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Kat (35:23):
He could, he could say that to everybody.

Fuck.
Fuck you.
Fuck you,

Kat (35:28):
No I'm

What the fuck?
What the

Kat (35:32):
I was trying to make IRR joke, but I was thinking about
how true that is for all of us.

I think I just scared you over a
second.
Sorry.
That was a little bit foreffect, but, well, that's the
thing, right?

Kat (35:45):
I'm sorry, teasing you a little bit, but I mean, the
reason why I'm saying it too,though, is cuz as you're saying
that out loud, it resonates withme so much and I'm sure it must
resonates with our I'm.
sure.
Cause we're all

in church, like if, if someone else
gets a word and that resonateswith you, like grab it

Kat (35:59):
for yourself clean it for yourself or like it

being said to you too.

Kat (36:03):
ran, Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So now are you still mad at me?

I am kind of, you ruined my moment
fucker.
it feels bad in my body right

Kat (36:12):
now.

was such a good moment.
Fuck you.

Kat (36:15):
What can I do to help?

I, I don't know.
Just let me get over.
Just let me rant

Kat (36:20):
and

That's a coping

Kat (36:22):
Yeah, You gotta get it out.
Oh seriously.
It's

cultural.
It feels like very Italian.

Kat (36:27):
as.

very connected to my Italian kids.

Kat (36:29):
but if you are depressed, right, again, like coping skill
for depression, like ranting andraging.
Yes.
Would

Does that feel good?

Kat (36:36):
so helpful.
Yeah.
It's something I have a hardtime accessing.
Yeah.
So it's funny cuz you're likeyou said that, oh, I scared cat,
but like a little bit cause likeI, anger is still like a tricky
one for me.
I just, oh yeah.
I don't, you know, there's someanger in my family origin that
was unsafe.
And so like I, I have a hardtime.
Really a holding anger towardsothers, even.

(36:57):
It's almost like I'm, you know,so quick to forgive, but I think
it's really more of my owndiscomfort with it.
Yeah.
So, but a few times in my lifeI've been able to like rage,
right.
And like scream into a pillow orsomething, or like go for a
drive, you know?
But man, I, again, the thingabout depression sometimes can
be that like you described itlike the heavy fog or you're in

(37:17):
that lethargy is having thatstuck feeling and so seriously.
Thing to try is like rage.
You know, like we have a lot ofbridges out here in the bay
area.
And so when my ex-husbandfinally moved out I would drop
the kids off and I would have tocross a bridge.
And I started doing this thingfor like weeks at a time, even
though it was cold outside whenI was over the water, I would

(37:39):
roll the windows down.
How would scream literally asloud as I possibly could.
It wasn't always rage, but itwas like the most helpful
release, you know, there's justa whole year of tension before
we finally separated.
And So, man, it took a while forthat to get outta my body, look
at you intuitively knowing whatto do

well, I, I, and I can do a rant and a
rave.
And so I joke about like thatbeing very like east coast

Kat (38:05):
energy and

like very Italian and very but also
my, my dad had a little bit ofanger and, and it was like one
time.
It really scared me, but, butthere was like, anger was an
okay.
But I don't know that I wasreally allowed to be

Kat (38:18):
angry.
Mm-hmm

so it's so it's interesting.
I, I do also feel scared

Kat (38:23):
of, of anger.
Mm-hmm

I that's in that people pleasing
is like, I don't wanna feelother people's anger

Kat (38:28):
in my body.
Right.
Oh yeah.
that interesting.
Mm-hmm yeah.
so

dear friends, if, if you are you
know, experiencing one of thoseseasons.

Kat (38:36):
yeah.

Is there something that you need to
release or is, is yourdepression telling you like that
this is not okay.
What's happening or that youneed to change?
Or is it something that you needto sort of have that radical
acceptance and reimaginesomething different

Kat (38:51):
I wanna say too.
I think that step one, it's veryhelpful.
If you always just let step onebeing radical acceptance, it's
just acknowledging it.
Right.
Mm-hmm like, not that you wannastay in this state of being
forever, but like, this iswhat's actually

radically accept that you'll

Kat (39:06):
feel your, your reality.
Yeah.
I am experiencing this, this isthe truth and I am not going to
pretend it's not, ah, right.
sure.
Cause it's hard to get any likereal help.
Yeah.
So you start there, like youjust acknowledge what's true.
Yeah.
And you're like, you try toacknowledge it without.
Applying morality to it.
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you don't judge it.

(39:26):
Yeah.
Right.
And then once I noticed in me,like when I do that, then some
creative thinking around itshows Yeah.
And then suddenly you, I'venoticed it's really possible to
just allow yourself to bedirected by whatever you're
curious about or whatever feelsa little bit spacious, you know,
and sometimes we talk a lotabout like centering pleasure.

(39:46):
And so like, is there any littlesmall thing to G give you a
little bit of pleasure, youknow?
Cause you need that little hitof dopamine, a little hit of
serotonin.
It might be hanging out with aperson.
It really might be like goingshopping.
It might be going for a driveand taking the beach way, home,
whatever that is.
Right.

Whatever.
It may be just dopamine,dopamine, get it, get the

Kat (40:04):
the hit.
Oh, and if you're not there yet,like, this is the other thing
again, radical acceptance.
So.
When I am having a real, likedepressed window, I give myself
so much spaciousness of like, Iknow I'd probably feel better if
I could get myself outside inthe sun, but I can't, I can't
yet.
And so I wait for enough energyto do the thing.

(40:25):
I don't force myself, so I willjust binge watch TV.
I'll try really hard to feedmyself and drink water.
Like I really readjust myexpectations for myself.
Sure.
So it's just try to feedyourself.
It's not, I'm gonna feel betterif I do a, B and C, I don't have
access to that yet.
And that's actually okay.
Yeah.
So if I'm really, I stay withwhere I really am and I own it

(40:47):
of like, okay, what do you haveaccess to?
And it's very, very little andI'm like, okay, Catherine, let's
just try to make sure we eatsome food.
Yeah.
Right.
And actually I have in my home Ihave these like a protein shake,
you know?
And it's, it has nothing to dowith like trying to be on a diet
it's because often I don't haveaccess.
Yeah.
To feeding myself well.
Yeah.
And some of that's the ADHD andsome of it's the chronic

(41:08):
illness.
Well, there's lots of overlaphere, but when I'm sad, when
there's been a lot of grief inmy life, in the last several
weeks.
I have figured out like, havesome easy shit around to just
put in your body, cuz it's hardto feed yourself and that's okay
too, because I've learned totrust that that state is not a
forever state mm-hmm you know?
And so yeah, I know we'retalking about all these things

(41:28):
that are helpful, but I'mrealizing that like, I, I can't
even do those things

Oh, sure.

Kat (41:33):
takes a while to get up to that.

one, one of the ways that we do work
with people with depression isto break everything down into
incredibly

Kat (41:40):
small Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, Right.
Mm-hmm

maybe it's not even a full shower.
Maybe it's

Kat (41:44):
like, oh yeah.

brush your teeth or wash your face or
can you drink some water today?
Right.
Like

Kat (41:49):
also think you

down into very small

Kat (41:51):
bit, very small.
And sometimes you skip theshower for a lot of days.
That is

yeah.
Oh yeah.

Kat (41:56):
The wall's not gonna end mm-hmm no.
And don't clean your house anddon't do your laundry.
The world does not end.

And then asking what would feel
better?
Yeah.
Right.
Sometimes right.
Again, it's like going back tobeing in your body, asking
yourself what is good right now.
Because for some people,especially being an extrovert,

Kat (42:13):
mm-hmm I

do try and force myself, not all
the time.
Right.
But if I'm not feeling well,I'll be like, Force yourself to
go, right.
Because you know, through trialand error yeah.
That it's better to go or likejust sit outside, you don't have
to walk or go anywhere.
Right.
Right.
You know what I'm saying?

Kat (42:31):
because you figure that out because again, that's tailored
specifically to you.
Yep.
And again, when I give advice topeople, that's the thing.
I just, I feel so strongly aboutcuz I I don't think there is a
one size fits.
All right.

No.
And we're listing so many thingscuz it's like, well maybe one of
'em might appeal to you,

Kat (42:47):
whatever feels shiny to you of them I

be like, fuck you

Kat (42:50):
guys

you

Kat (42:51):
no, they're not saying that they love us.

they do?
I think so

Kat (42:58):
We only get positive feedback from our listeners.
So we're so lucky.

I will say, you know, not to be a
bossy bitch, but I do wanna addthese things just again,
throwing them out just in caseyou're like, oh yeah.
well, you know, we have a wholeepisode called sad bitch.
Just get vitamin D.
Yeah.
I, I don't know how, I didn'tknow this, but how vitamin D is
really so impactful in your moodand in pain.
Like I was having some sorenessthat all went away literally
like a day or two after Istarted

Kat (43:25):
Gosh, that's amazing.
Its so wild.
Like

how come?
I didn't know this.
And I, I do wanna talk aboutexercise.
Sometimes that is way just offthe

Kat (43:33):
table, Sure.

yeah.
But, and I talk about this,maybe even aspirationally, cuz
it took me a long time.
The first time you, exercise oryou realize, oh, exercise
actually changed my mood or ittook away my anxiety or my
body's not shaking

Kat (43:51):
it.
Yeah.

Right.
So we're reclaiming it andtaking it back from like all the
diet culture bullshit.
Right.
And then we're saying like, oh Ican actually use it as a
self-regulation

Kat (44:01):
tool Yeah.
Or even pleasure, like movementcan be pleasure.
Right?
Yeah.
I go to the pool as often as Ican because it's pleasure.
But it's specifically merecognizing that this kind of
movement doesn't hurt my bodyalmost always makes me feel so
much better.
Increases my mood always.
Right.

Well, I'm bringing it all the way back
around.
You know, we talk about like howto manage emotion.
We talk about we've talked aboutemotion surfing, right?
Just how seeing emotions as awave.
Right.
And that waves, never just staythe same.
They ebb and flow.
Right.
They're not gonna be here for,and just, can we tolerate that
distress?
If you have your self soothingtools, can you tolerate like,

(44:40):
okay, this is gonna be sad

Kat (44:42):
today right?
Yeah.

It's not gonna be here

Kat (44:44):
forever.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
What if you could make sad daylists, you know of like maybe
when you're not super sad, okay.
It's a sad day.
And then you, you almost turn itinto a game.
I'm like, I'm gonna stay in mybed for seven extra hours.
Like, like, can I make it sevenhours?
You know what I mean?
Like oh, it's a sad day.
Like just recognizing, andagain, trying to address it with
non-judgment.

(45:04):
So then you just, when you'rejust a little irreverent with
it.
it.
can be so helpful.
yeah.
And then okay, so it'sacceptance.
And then like that little tweakof like, okay, I'm gonna be
irreverent about this.
And so you know, it could be ashorthand in your like circle
of, of humans, right?
Like, Hey, it's a sad day.
And so you send a text to these,you know, handful of people,
it's a sad day.
And so like, you're not gonnatalk to them and they, they all

(45:27):
know they're fine.
Right.
Mm-hmm and then you're like, andthey know maybe to send you like
what they're watching on TV.
Right?
Yeah.
Like, Hey, it's a sad day, you

but I love that our culture's
already done that with theSunday scaries.

Kat (45:39):
Oh, yes.
Right.
Like totally

talking about that, like Sunday night
that like anxiety, that weirdfeeling you get

Kat (45:45):
fucking

yeah.
Weekends over Mondays coming theSunday scaries.
I love that.
Like, there's a shorthand forthat.
Right.
And we just kind of, when youtalk about it again, shame, how
do, how do we sort of eradicateshame by sharing it with someone
else?
Right.
Kind of the same thing.
Yeah.
Just kind of, oh, I guess thissummertime sadness,

Kat (46:04):
right?
Yeah.

Sad girl.
Sad girl,

Kat (46:06):
summer sad girl, summer

and I guess, I guess I wanna wrap up
my stuff with this.
can we.
Also allow just these periods

time

without not being able to tolerate them
and be like, I shouldn't ever be

Kat (46:23):
sad.
Yeah.

Yeah.
So that doesn't get stuffed downin our

Kat (46:25):
body Exactly.

then other weird things happen.
Right.
It comes out in other ways, butjust moving through it.

Kat (46:31):
Right.
Oh, you're so smart.
Val.

cat.

Kat (46:36):
Are you still mad at me?
No.
Oh, good.
no.

I'm over it.
Wait, let me think about it.
Oh yeah.
I'm mad about it.
Still.
Fuck.

Kat (46:44):
You don't even remember what it was.
Do you remember?
of course Oh, do.

Oh, of course I do.
You've

Kat (46:48):
I've already forgotten.
Yeah.
I

my husband, unfortunately, you
married someone with anincredibly good memory.
Fuck you.
Ah, well, we already talkedabout what's bringing us'

Kat (46:58):
pleasure.
I Know,

know.
And so I think that we just haveto say goodbye.

Kat (47:02):
okay.
I just wanna say, do drugs.

upset.

Kat (47:09):
you haven't listened to

Okay.
Cat,

Kat (47:14):
objects I love you I love you so

so much until next time.
Bye.

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