August 30, 2022 • 48 mins
Kat and Val talk family of origin, and boundaries. Many of us can relate to the tension of honoring our own paths while wanting to maintain connection with the humans who raised us.
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
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Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
How to Change Your Mind (Netflix Docuseries) Micheal Pollan
The Gottman Institute: Dreams Within Conflict
Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria
Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole by Susan Cain
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
I love Valerie.
Val (00:35):
hello,
Kat (00:36):
Oh my God.
I missed you.
Val (00:38):
I miss you too.
I'm doing a little happy dance.
Kat (00:40):
You are together.
Yay.
Val (00:44):
How do you feel about a partner?
Who's who's always traveling
Kat (00:48):
well, I love that you're living your life, right?
And when you are away, I justmake do right.
but I'm like, oh, I like it somuch better when you're in town.
And I get to like, have this,you know, weekly, regular, like
we get to talk our hearts outtogether
Val (01:04):
we do.
Kat (01:05):
and then talk about stuff like this synergy of being in
the same space with you.
Honestly, like always makes mefeel better.
It really, really does.
I love it.
Yeah,
Val (01:14):
good.
Isn't
Kat (01:14):
Yeah.
You're one of the humans in mylife that always makes me feel
better.
Aw.
Val (01:18):
that's sweet.
Kat (01:19):
Yeah, I think we're like vibrating.
Similarly.
there's a deep resonance in ourvibe.
Val (01:30):
Yes.
I'm back.
We did our little east coasttour, we went to Miami saw the
bubble family had a great timewith them.
Checked in on our investments,
Kat (01:39):
that a good weather
Val (01:40):
got to swim in the warm ocean.
Then we went to New York city,
Kat (01:44):
New York city
Val (01:45):
where RAI got to live out his musical
Kat (01:48):
dreams.
Val (01:48):
We, we saw the last show of the Tina Turner
Kat (01:52):
story.
Oh my God.
Val (01:53):
know it.
Got it.
Got canceled.
During Christmas because ofOmicron.
and that man,
Kat (01:58):
Oh, he loves Tina Turner so much.
Val (02:01):
seeing so much.
If you know, she's a part of herorigin story.
Kat (02:04):
I know.
I love that story.
Do you remember what episodethat's on?
There's this great story thatVal tells about one of her early
dates with her feet where I
Val (02:11):
which episode, but basically, yeah, I picked him up
and he was watching a
Kat (02:15):
TV.
Val (02:15):
Turner concert, DVT, and I was like, and then he booed all
my girlfriends by, they werethought he was stupid at
Kat (02:21):
first.
Val (02:21):
so he loves, oh, he loves student Turners.
So that was amazing.
And then the Michael Jacksonmusical as well, and you know,
he broke out some real MichaelJackson moves at our dance
parties.
he did it on our friend'swedding.
the, the bride's sister.
And, and he got into this likeMichael Jackson dance
Kat (02:39):
battle.
Oh my God.
That's hilarious.
Val (02:41):
with like black
Kat (02:42):
fedoras,
Val (02:43):
cuz it was like 2008, I guess.
Kat (02:45):
Oh, that's awesome.
Val (02:46):
I remember in a couple episodes ago I talked about
crying during music.
Kat (02:49):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Val (02:50):
I was crying again.
KA, we're gonna do an episodeabout this once I do some more
research
Kat (02:56):
About it.
Val (02:56):
I, I really am because I'm so fascinated about this.
It wasn't like, like it was amoving part of the show, but my
body was just like overwhelmed
Kat (03:05):
by it.
Mm-hmm
Val (03:06):
I really thought I could go into the full heaving body,
like, weeping.
I had to stop myself
Kat (03:14):
you're in public and you don't wanna seem odd.
Yeah.
Is that
Val (03:17):
yeah, I'd get made fun
Kat (03:18):
of them.
Val (03:18):
my husband.
Kat (03:20):
so it's not the public,
Val (03:21):
I don't know, the full on body heaving cry.
It's
Kat (03:26):
Totally.
Val (03:27):
So I, we were our masks
Kat (03:29):
it's and cleansing and, and it releases it's catharsis.
It's our body's way of lettingshit out.
Maybe that's
Val (03:36):
just it, but it's happening at weird times.
So then, okay.
I'll come back to this, but fastforward to the end of our trip,
we're in this gorgeousamphitheater in San Diego with
refis twin peacock, twin, whowe're watching the gypsy Kings
and probably doesn't surpriseanyone, but she dated a gypsy
king when she was
Kat (03:53):
like, I don't even know what gypsy king is.
Val (03:56):
it's a band.
Okay.
Bule, you'll hear them.
It's very like guitar.
Kat (04:00):
fun.
Val (04:01):
Anyway.
It was amazing.
Cuz there was like six rhythmguitars.
So it felt
Kat (04:04):
Like
Val (04:05):
just this rush of man, I love music.
I ah, and it was amazing.
Everything was so beautiful.
And I was like, you know what,here, I don't care.
I'm gonna cry.
I'm gonna let it go.
I'm not gonna stop myself.
Yeah.
And then I didn't feel it atall.
Kat (04:20):
all.
That's so funny.
Val (04:24):
I'm a mystery.
I, I own a mystery.
And then we went to Connecticutto see my family.
And it was a very interestingexperience.
And so I thought, oh, maybe it'stime.
We do an episode about family
Kat (04:35):
matters.
Val (04:36):
Should we call it the, this episode family matters or family
ties?
Or is there another show fromthe nineties that we could, you
know, rip off the title, butanyway, title T B D but I just
had some really conflicting,interesting, like everybody
seemed to
Kat (04:52):
to be
Val (04:53):
healthier and it's so funny that I have to say.
but healthy is always aeuphemism for like their
skinnier, right.
Like, so I ha I feel like I haveto say, it's not like, oh,
people lost weight.
It was that people just seemedmore vivacious.
Like more active, happier, like,not as stressed, even my mom's
dog was healthier.
(05:13):
Even our friend's dog washealthier.
I guess it was the pandemic.
And we, we minimize it so much.
Kat (05:19):
so like, because of all the stillness that, you know, we
collectively all had to likeengage in that, coming up out of
it.
People seem a little bit morelike alive, more vibrant.
Val (05:29):
But I think the stress and the sickness.
Yeah.
Right.
We also saw my, one of my mom'sbest friends was my first boss
ever.
My first job, Joanne fabrics.
Yes.
I'm a crafting and sewing nerdto thank you very much.
Do you remember in college?
Okay.
Everybody was getting marriedbecause that was what you were
supposed to do.
And so me and my best friend atthe time, we would make wedding
(05:51):
albums.
This was back in.
Kat (05:54):
oh yes, fuck.
I remember
Val (05:56):
they were like plush covered with different
Kat (05:59):
I'm so gross out right now.
Val (06:01):
And so I was like the creative
Kat (06:03):
lace sticking out of the end.
I remember I can picture you inyour room working on these
things.
Oh my God.
That's
Val (06:10):
hilarious.
And then, well, okay.
So I would do the creative likevision and then my my best
friend could really cut astraight line.
Kat (06:19):
that's such a skill.
I
Val (06:20):
She, she was more of the executor of the fine details.
But that was, and then we wouldgive them to our friends who are
getting married.
And so then Joanne fabrics, Iwould.
I actually did classes andtaught other people how to make
these like fabric scrapbookphoto albums.
And if you happen to be
Kat (06:36):
upholstered the outside of a, of a scrapbook, a photo
album.
That's what you've done.
Val (06:40):
done.
So if you're a, a millennialgen, well, no, if you're gen Z
we used to actually print ourphotos
Kat (06:46):
yeah.
Val (06:47):
and put them in a book.
And so isn't that funny?
Yeah.
Why was I telling that storydating?
Kat (06:52):
ourselves cuz you're crafty your boss.
Val (06:54):
And I really loved her and I'm like, you know what?
You'd be good friends with mymom And so after I went to
college, My mom got a job there.
Kat (07:02):
Oh my
Val (07:03):
they've been friends for like what, 30 years?
She came to our wedding.
Kat (07:06):
Wow.
Val (07:07):
And she was in a car accident, a hit and run.
I know.
And the person just fled thescene.
So she was, yeah.
So she was like at 70 now she'sdoing better.
Yeah.
So everybody just felthealthier.
So it was really great to seethat.
And we had a great time andthere was some, also some other
family dynamics going
Kat (07:25):
on
Val (07:25):
when my, my nephew's birthday.
So we went over there, hadlittle cake and They got all
kinds of Nerf guns and Nerfgrenade, like all this stuff,
these boys are running around.
So, so RAI gets in the mix.
Oh my uncle.
Yeah.
And I'm like, oh gosh, watchthis.
And so he starts yelling guys,you know, I don't know how to
play.
(07:46):
Okay.
Cause I was like, watch out cuzhe has no mercy on kids.
Like I, he has no mercy.
You play with him.
He's a terrible loser.
He is.
He's gotten mad during cardgames that we plays with our
friends.
And I'm like, are you kidding meright now?
This is a game.
So he's there with the Nerf gunsand then he'll just let the kids
hit him.
(08:06):
And then he's like, oh, youdone?
Okay.
Pop, pop.
He's like hitting kids in theglasses.
I'm like, dude, So he keepssaying, I don't know how to
play.
And I was like, no, you don'tknow how to play well with
others.
Okay.
These are small children.
So then
Kat (08:22):
small are they?
How small
Val (08:23):
They're 10.
They're not that small.
No, he, no.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
These kids.
So we found out he has bruisesall over his
Kat (08:31):
oh, shit
Val (08:32):
where the kids were hanging out
Kat (08:33):
God.
Val (08:33):
So that was fun.
Oh my gosh.
Then we took a ferry to see mygrandmother who was gonna turn
94.
She is a wild child.
Kat (08:42):
And she lives where
Val (08:44):
at long island,
Kat (08:45):
long
Val (08:45):
island.
Yes.
She's like the nanny'sgrandmother.
That's, that's how she talks.
And I have a classic grandmastory.
Maybe I'll tell after oh man,this woman.
I mean, she's a riot.
We saw her and then went to theairport
Kat (08:58):
Okay.
Val (08:58):
yeah.
And then flew home.
And
Kat (09:00):
I just wanna hear you talk like you're grandma some more.
Val (09:03):
Oh gosh.
I wanna tell the grandma story.
But should I tell it now orafter the break?
What, what do you think weshould do?
Kat (09:09):
Yeah, let's save it for the break.
Come on back, everybody.
We're gonna hear Val talk likeher grandma.
thanks for joining us.
We'll be right back.
Val (09:18):
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Kat (09:35):
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Val (09:36):
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Kat (09:47):
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Val (10:13):
Yay.
All right.
Kat (10:15):
Oh, come right in talking like your grandma.
Val (10:18):
I'm so glad you came.
You're gorgeous.
You're looking gorgeous.
Thanks for my chocolates.
Okay.
Funny enough.
She is.
Kat (10:24):
is like a
Val (10:25):
A chocolate monster.
She loves chocolate so much thatI, my mom didn't want me to have
sugar, all that.
So like, my second Easter, shegrabs me from my mother.
As soon as we walk into herhouse, runs to the kitchen and
starts shoving, like chocolateeggs into my mouth.
My whole time, my mom gets in, Ihave like chocolate
Kat (10:45):
oh my gosh.
Val (10:46):
And she was like, yeah, it's very rigid personality.
She doesn't know how to play
Kat (10:50):
either.
Val (10:51):
So maybe that's why her and her feet get along so well.
But she's just been such a bigfigure in, in our lives and So
once I brought CI candy syrups,I'm like, well, grandma, love
chocolate.
This is the best chocolate Andso I always bring it and She has
no self control when it goes tochocolate.
So one time we find out thatshe's telling my uncle who lives
with her.
Hey hide this chocolate fromyou.
(11:11):
Cuz she'll eat the whole poundbox in, in one sitting.
She's like hide this from me.
Hide this from me.
I can't get it.
Just, just don't listen to me.
Hide it from
Kat (11:19):
me.
Val (11:21):
She wanted the chocolate so bad that she woke him up in the
middle of the night.
Where's my chocolate where mychocolate
Kat (11:29):
Oh my God.
Val (11:30):
and she's all, she's not even five foot tall.
He hit it where she couldn'treach it.
I think he put it the freezerand she woke this man up for the
middle of sleep just to get herchocolate.
Kat (11:41):
Oh my God.
Oh gosh.
Val (11:42):
So there's a lot of comedy.
There's a lot of comedy relief.
Kat (11:46):
Yeah.
Val (11:46):
if you let me, my favorite story, can I tell it?
Of
Kat (11:49):
Of course,
Val (11:50):
so my grandma calls me now, if you know her, it is the duty
of the children and thegrandchildren to call the
grandma.
She should not lift a finger tocall you.
That is your job.
So I see her calling.
I'm like, shit, what'shappening.
So I'm at work this is about,six, seven years
Kat (12:07):
ago.
Sure.
Val (12:08):
Grandma what's wrong.
Well, Valerie Rafi just calledme asking for money and I mean,
I would love to give it to himcuz you're my granddaughter.
But I told him no.
Now in that millisecond.
Kat (12:18):
Yeah.
Val (12:19):
I had divorced RAI
Kat (12:22):
it's like, it's it?
Val (12:24):
What is going on in his world?
That he is keeping from me andasking my old grandma for money.
Right.
I was like, that's it it's over.
Kat (12:33):
oh no.
So bads happening.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Val (12:36):
Maybe show some of my own neurosis.
Kat (12:39):
right.
Val (12:39):
Worst case scenario jumper am I?
I was like, grandma, what areyou talking about?
And I'm like mortified and
Kat (12:45):
embarra.
Val (12:46):
And she's like, well, he called me to tell me that he was
in Mexico and he went to jailand he told me that he was at a
wedding.
And so he needed me to send himmoney.
So first of all, she goes, Nowyou're my granddaughter.
So of course I would wanna givehim money, but, you know, I just
did my floors.
I don't have that kind of cashflying around.
(13:07):
I was like, what?
and plus, why is he in Mexicowithout my granddaughter?
At a wedding?
Without my granddaughter.
I don't like it.
I don't like it at all.
he had worked for the airlinesand he had just been in Mexico
the
Kat (13:20):
week Oh my
Val (13:21):
And of course he's so impulsive that he might actually
be in Mexico.
And I was like, grandma, I'm 99%sure that he's at working at the
airport right now.
He's not in Mexico.
She goes but then when I said, Ididn't have any money with me.
The guy told me where I could goand pull out money.
And then when I told him I don'tdrive anymore, he hung up the
(13:42):
phone.
I said, oh grandma, that was ascammer.
I'm so glad that you outsmartedthem.
The best part of this though, isthat she was like, you know,
anyways, if he really was injail, I need to check with you
first because you're the wife.
She goes, how do I know youdon't wanna stay in jail for a
(14:03):
few days?
Kat (14:08):
Oh my
Val (14:09):
God.
OG.
Kat (14:10):
she's.
Yeah.
Yeah, she is.
Val (14:13):
So was working at, for the airline at the time and he like,
couldn't be on his phone.
So I text him nine one, oneemergency called me and like,
what?
Okay, where are you?
He's like, I'm at the airport.
What's wrong.
I'm like, okay.
I think someone was trying to mygrandma goodbye.
there could been a slight
Kat (14:32):
a slight oh my God.
Oh my
Val (14:33):
a
Kat (14:34):
good
Val (14:37):
So then I tell Ravi the whole story, and then he's like,
wait a minute, your grandma wasgonna let RO in jail.
Kat (14:44):
Yeah,
Val (14:44):
So when we call her, he is like, again, he doesn't know how
to play.
He's like, well, grandma, youbetter hope that you never go to
jail because I'm not bailing youout.
You better not call me.
Kat (14:55):
Jesus Christ.
Val (14:56):
he's he keeps a grudge.
He can keep a grudge.
Kat (15:00):
Oh shit.
That's funny.
Val (15:02):
Oh gosh.
So that's one of my best grandmastories, But I saw her, and I
saw the rest of my family and itwas such a mixed bag.
So that's what I wanna talkabout today.
And I feel like there's aspectrum, right?
There's a spectrum of people onone end is.
Kat (15:16):
like
Val (15:16):
I have some friends and actually, I adopted myself into
one of these large families whenI was here by myself.
Right.
And, you know, everyone gottogether for, for all the
holidays and, and after churchand, and everybody really seemed
like they got along.
No family is perfect or there'snot sacrifices or challenges or
little TIFs, whatever.
But I, I think that on the oneend, there are people that their
(15:39):
families feel
Kat (15:39):
like a safe place,
Val (15:40):
like a safe place, a mutual place.
And there's not maybe therigidity or the like power and
coercion, Aren used as much toget you to be there.
Right.
Right.
People seem to want to be there.
So we have a few friends thatthey, they have these big
families, especially in the bayarea where a lot of people come
here.
Not a lot of people.
(16:01):
we're raised here and havefamily here.
It's such a luxury in one senseand then I think on the other
end, right, is, is that peoplewho have had to cut family off
made that decision, because itfeels very unsafe or one sided
or unhealthy all those things.
And then I feel like there'slots of people in the middle,
right.
Trying to just trying to
Kat (16:22):
figure out, just navigate it.
Yeah.
Navigate family of origin.
Relationships is tricky.
Messy.
Because families are made up ofhuman beings, right?
Yes.
And all of us as human beings,we have like all of our
bullshit.
Right.
We've got like trauma andhealing and stuff that needs to
happen.
We have like our shortcomings,we have our light in our dark.
Right.
People are complicated and youthrow people and you bind them
(16:42):
together in a little unit.
Right.
And they create a subculture oftheir own.
Yeah.
And then as you grow and mature,like, is that a place that you
wanna continue to participate inyeah.
Val (16:53):
In grad school I learned the concept of family rules,
Uhhuh, and like how familieshave these rules that like,
they're not even aware of, butthey're abiding by them.
So both me and one of mybrothers married people that
work quite a bit more like onthe edge, we're the like prudish
ones, I guess.
of our spouses were with us andour mom and they were saying
things like talking about sex orsexy things, and it's like, We
(17:15):
don't, we don't do that in ourfamily.
We don't say that around ourmother, but they don't know the
family rules.
Kat (17:20):
Yeah.
Val (17:21):
Right.
Or even just like that.
My mom controls the radio.
I mean, I guess that, like,that's a regular, but like RCOs
put on some kind of, you know,secular music and it's like,
you're gonna get in trouble.
Kat (17:34):
Oh my gosh.
Val (17:35):
Let's see how this goes.
Let me just step back and watch,but realizing like, oh, those
are family rules yeah.
So then you bring in the in-laws
Kat (17:42):
and right.
and,
Val (17:43):
spouses as well or partners.
Oh my gosh.
It is messy.
And so I think actually thehardest work is to keep some
sort of relationship withfamily.
Yeah.
And navigate it.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, all of it is painful.
Right.
Whenever let's be real.
But no, what I meant was if youhad to cut off your family, that
(18:05):
is also painful, but
Kat (18:07):
sure, sure, sure, sure.
So the idea of this episode wasthat we were just gonna talk
about like, as adult people.
Yeah.
What does it look like tonavigate relationships with your
family origin, especially likeyou and I, we both lived far
away from our family originbefore we did the episode, I
looked it up I'm 2,355 milesaway from my
Val (18:26):
parents.
Oh,
Kat (18:27):
and so I, Grew up in a dysfunctional family.
And then I did have childhoodtrauma as a part of my lived
experience.
And I was thinking about like,you know, human beings and, and
the culture we live in.
There's, there's kind of thisidea that like, you have to
maintain relationship with yourfamily of origin because you
know, blood is thicker thanwater.
And I don't, I don't subscribeto that anymore.
(18:48):
Like, I, I did a lot of shiftingand changing and evolving.
I choose to spend my time and myenergy with people who like, I
feel resonance with, you know?
And so my family of origin, Theycan't meet me where I am really.
And so I have a really limitedrelationship with only a couple
of them.
Yeah.
Right.
And then the rest, I reallydon't.
And you know, that was a longprocess to get there, but I
(19:10):
started to see it modeled andsome of my adult relationships
where they're like, yeah, Idon't talk to my family anymore.
You know?
And if someone had harmed you,who was not related to you, you
would not have a culturalexpectation to maintain
relationship with that person.
Yeah.
Who caused harm
Val (19:25):
unbelievable.
Kat (19:25):
Right, but because family, yeah.
And so that was a, that was areally big arc for me.
And I would say that ourrelationship with you know,
fundamentalist Christianity likekept me in those relationships a
lot longer.
Like I thought it was my job tobe so forgiving
Val (19:41):
and
Kat (19:41):
I still had to like witness to them.
I had to like, make sure, like,somehow it was my responsibility
to be in a relationship thatwith people that had cost harm
and save them, Ooh, yucky gross,yucky gross.
And so when I healed enough tobe like, oh, I don't have to do
that.
Whenever I speak with this oneperson, it's very dysregulating.
like, wow.
(20:02):
I feel like shit for hours.
And sometimes days when thisperson reaches out to me and
calls unexpectedly, like my God,you know, I was in my early
twenties when I started torecognize that pattern.
And you know, it, it was anotherlike several years before I went
to therapy for the first timeand learned like, I don't have
to be in relationship withanybody.
Yeah.
(20:23):
Yeah.
I don't have to be inrelationship with anybody that,
that it does not feel good in mybody.
Yeah.
I have decided you know, I stillcheck in with my mom and that
dynamic is, is fine.
You know, we don't talkregularly.
And like, I don't I dunno, it'snot like a, a traditional mother
daughter dynamic that, you know,we might think of, but, you
know, I love that woman and Iknow that she loves me and we
(20:45):
talk sometimes.
And like we talked just theother day and I don't feel
responsible for her anymore.
Val (20:51):
Mm.
Kat (20:51):
I spent many years as a young teen all the way through
my like early twenties feelinglike, again, it was my job to
save her.
And like, I was always likeeverything I would learn, I was
trying to teach her because shedidn't have all these, these
skills.
And then.
It was just this, it was, it wasan imbalance.
It didn't feel good.
And like, she's not even askingfor my advice about every
(21:12):
fucking thing under the sun.
Right.
I, she's not a project.
Yeah.
So I can, so the journey oflearning how to like accept her
exactly as she is.
Yeah.
And then just show up as exactlyas I am like unapologetically,
she had not a big reaction tothe fact that I came out as gay,
because I was like, I'm, I'mlike, there's no authority.
Like there's no hierarchydynamic that exists.
(21:33):
Mm-hmm between she and I mm-hmmAnd so that feels better.
And so I was like, yeah, I'mgay.
like, and that was fine.
And when I was, you know, beendating someone, I was dating
someone a little while ago.
Val (21:43):
that
Kat (21:44):
I thought might be serious.
I would told my mom about it andmy mom was like, fine.
So, but we don't, we don't talkregularly.
And I, I mean, she's just not aperson that I like, like, I
don't call her when I'm sad.
Right.
I have to call her if I'm, ifI'm in like already good head
space, mm-hmm and I can be alittle bit light with her.
Yeah.
And then during a conversation,if I hear myself falling into
(22:05):
old patterns, which is liketrying to fix her messy life, I
have to get.
Val (22:09):
the phone.
Yeah,
Kat (22:10):
I gotta go now.
Yeah.
And, and that's, that's theextent of intimacy I can have
with, you know, my own mom, butI have other relationships in my
life that I get my needs met,but I'm not expecting my family
of origin to meet needs becausethere were decades of them being
unable to meet my needs and mehaving all this pining and
longing and please meet myneeds, please meet my needs.
(22:31):
They cannot meet my needs.
Yeah.
So I get to create boundaries.
Yeah.
And that was not an easy,overnight decision, and then,
you know, we've talked aboutthis on the podcast.
Like my dad has passed away.
And so I was for many yearstrying so hard to like mend and
fix that relationship.
Cause I loved my dad.
I wanted to, to know him.
But even that I'm like, I wonderwhat it would be like now if you
(22:53):
were still alive, if I wouldstill be wanting that or if I'd
be like, I don't know.
Val (22:56):
Well, man, it's also nuance, isn't it?
Cuz even as I'm thinking abouttalking about some of the
challenges, that I face, mynuclear family, while it was
very chaotic because it wasinfused with ADHD from most
sides.
Right.
It was also very stable, likewhen I went to college realizing
that us eating dinner together,my dad coaching, my sports teams
(23:18):
us having just that stabilityand, you know, no, even just no
abuse.
Like that feels like, whoa,
Kat (23:26):
yeah.
Wow.
Really?
Val (23:27):
But it was also, probably from my sensitive little nervous
system.
Just always chaos.
like my brothers were justwrestling and Everything was
always broken or missing orsomebody getting in trouble or
yelling and all that.
Right.
Which I, I think I'm just onlyrealizing oh, Hey, that probably
had an effect on you.
Kat (23:45):
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Val (23:46):
Because you think well, okay, this was, a safe, healthy,
happy home for, you know, allintents purposes.
But I think, I guess I alsorealized that I was aware from
an early age that there wassadness around there not being a
lot of extended family aroundus, although we did have some,
but I only have three firstcousins.
Kat (24:07):
Yeah.
Wow.
Val (24:08):
And I've only seen them like two or three times in my
life.
And even though my grandmother,which I'll get to in a minute,
but espousing this whole like,oh, she loved to tell me, I'm
like, oh my, my friends, it's sogood.
Oh, friends, believe you, youknow, you can't count on them.
It's your family.
Only your family's gonna careabout you only your family and,
the wild irony of that was I waslike, I don't see that.
(24:30):
I have aunts and uncles that donot talk, have had a nurturing
relationship with me.
Right.
You know, and even mygrandmother's own family, like
she sort of a, I think alienatedherself and also this fierce
independence.
So I actually didn't find that.
And either parent side.
And so I felt like, oh, I feltthat, that, and I think I'm just
(24:51):
realizing this.
I think I felt.
Missing piece of maybe like alarger community.
We always had church friends
Kat (24:58):
and stuff.
Mm-hmm yeah.
Val (24:59):
which was, which was nice, but I always felt that we were
missing that.
And I think some of it wasn'tjust, oh, you came from a
smaller family or, oh, youraunts and uncles didn't have
kids.
There was estrangement mm-hmmand it just wasn't talked
Kat (25:12):
about.
Right, Yeah.
right.
Val (25:13):
There's a lot of shoving things under or changing the
story, but I think a lot of italso was my dad dying young
because that was my grandmotherlost a son.
my mom lost a partner.
We lost a father.
And I think that that sadness.
Kat (25:28):
I
Val (25:29):
I feel it all the time going back there.
And so I was telling you thatgoing back, it was like, wow,
everyone feels like healthier
Kat (25:36):
and more energy.
Val (25:37):
And you know, my mom deals with a chronic illness and I
have a brother who, one brotherwho's has some disabilities and
my other brother's just toobusy.
Yeah.
And you know, I've tried to haverelationship and not, you know,
it's caused me a lot of greatsadness and I just had to
release that expectation.
But then when we go there,
Kat (25:58):
yeah,
Val (25:59):
It was beautiful
Kat (26:00):
This,
Val (26:00):
It was easy and so
Kat (26:02):
good.
Yeah.
Val (26:03):
It was actually confusing.
I was confused.
Like, this feels great, but youfucker can't even return a text
message to me.
You know what I mean?
It's like, it is that outtasight, outta mind with the ADHD
I'm telling you.
Yeah.
And so it was, it was confusing.
One of my brothers have alwayssaid, I think we'd be way closer
if you lived nearby, which Iwould agree with, you know?
(26:23):
There was this, dichotomy oflike, oh, this feels good.
And then also there's just lotsof sadnesses.
My mom's still not, having apartner and going into
retirement.
my little brother just, reallystruggling.
And then my grandma just she'sshe hasn't laid it on thick in a
while, but she was like, if youwere here, this would be your
job.
Aren't you glad you live so faraway?
(26:45):
And I was like, yep.
well, grandma, I left at 17.
And she's just started tosoften, like at 94, like just a
few years ago, it was stilllike, Again, going to grad
school realizing like, oh,there's some,
Kat (26:59):
yeah.
Val (26:59):
I think I know the name for
Kat (27:00):
what
Val (27:01):
you're dealing with and not knowing it was just my grandma's
demanding and she won't letthings go and she's very rigid
about how she thinks life,should go and you can't disagree
with her.
I mean, she'll complain, eventhe good things you do for her.
And so that has been a struggle.
And you know, we've talked aboutboundaries before on the
podcast, we got two greatepisodes about it, but that was
(27:24):
the hardest one.
And when I'm talking to clientsabout like, I know it's hard
work to put those boundaries upwith people who really don't
like boundaries.
And I had to just go through aperiod of time where I was like,
grandma, look, if you want me tokeep calling you I, you can't
talk about
Kat (27:38):
this.
Yeah.
Val (27:40):
She's estranged from, from part of the family.
And I'm like, I can't fix thisfor you.
And I don't want ourrelationship to be about that.
And so I'm gonna hang up thephone if you won't listen to me.
And she didn't like it, andfinally, I was like, look, I'm
doing this because I love you.
And I do want to stay inrelationship with you.
Right.
But this is what I need.
Yeah.
(28:00):
And she did.
And a funny thing too, again,there's generational stuff.
Yeah.
That I realized the older peoplein my family while they might
have good friends.
they don't talk about thepainful stuff with them.
Cuz that's too embarrassing.
I'm like I can't be the one thatyou talk to about
Kat (28:16):
no, no, no, no,
Val (28:17):
no.
So that's been a long journeyand to be honest, it's been tied
up with me about just sort ofthis like savior complex that I
think we get right.
Cuz I, you and I had thisconversation, I talked about
this on the parenting andinfertility episode.
But I, finally got a hold of mythoughts and was, like, why do
you think you always have to dothe hardest thing and make the
biggest
Kat (28:35):
yeah.
Yeah.
Val (28:36):
And why is that what you feel like you need to do?
Yeah.
Oh, because that's, what's,that's, what's taught to us in
this sacrifice, really thegreater, the sacrifice,
Kat (28:46):
Cause God loved us so much that he gave us only begotten
son.
Yeah.
Right.
The greatest sacrifice that God,that was the dogma.
Yeah.
And so you have to be like, God,you would be
Val (28:55):
and then Jesus died.
Right.
So everybody everybody's
Kat (28:58):
every big sacrificing.
Val (28:59):
Yeah.
Kat (28:59):
Oh my God.
Val (29:00):
And right.
I think there are beautifulattributes.
Like more like the fruits of thespirit you would call them like
love, joy and peace and patienceand all of that.
Like, I, I think that it's okayto hold on.
I, I do want to make thissacrifice.
And again, we've talked aboutshould en energy, right.
And why you're doing it.
And are you abandoning yourself,right?
(29:21):
It is all very nuanced, cuz ifsomeone's drowning you, you go
into save them.
Right.
But then also if you don't havea death, wish, you know, where
like this is gonna take me downtoo, I can't help anymore.
Right.
So there's obviously times Ithink that we do decide to
sacrifice or we do decide torelieve someone suffering.
But what I've learned and Ithink what you're talking about
(29:41):
is, is to not lose yourself inthat.
Kat (29:44):
Well, okay.
I'm always gonna keep bringingus back to the body.
Like this is how we navigatethat, because what you're saying
is we we're living our liveswhere there's give and take.
Right.
Mm-hmm and I think that'sappropriate in any relationship,
right?
Yeah.
And so when you live in yourbody, you recognize, oh, you
know, I, I can do this thing.
Yes.
This is a sacrifice I'm willingto make this sacrifice.
(30:05):
It's a conscious choice.
You get to engage in as opposedto the programming and the
expectations that maybe we'regetting from our families of
origin.
Yeah.
And then they're not allowingyou to self-actualize right,
right.
That you must sacrifice in orderto maintain relationship, to
keep the peace.
Yeah.
And when we talk aboutboundaries, especially within
our family of origin, we, wehave to.
(30:27):
Except that there's grief inthis
Val (30:29):
mix.
Mm-hmm
Kat (30:30):
if it's rocks the boat, you have to be fucking brave to rock
the boat enough and then be upfor the fact that it's grief.
You're not gonna get the storythat you want.
The only reason why people arekeeping their external, their
family members happy is cuz theywanna keep the peace.
They want the story of like thishappy family.
All of us would love that story.
That's a great, beautiful story.
(30:51):
I'd love that story.
So we don't get that storyalways.
And so there's grief, right?
If you're gonna uphold aboundary and then at the end of
it, that's why I say like whenwe go through hard and traumatic
things, what we discover therichness within ourselves, I
don't feel desolate because I'mnot in close relationship with
my family of origin, because Ihave an inside space that's been
(31:14):
cultivated where I'm actuallyhonoring myself.
I'm actually centering myself.
I'm learning what my needs are.
And I'm articulating it to thehumans that are in my life that
do resonate with me.
Mm-hmm you know, but holyfucking shit.
That's not an easy path to walk.
Val (31:30):
No, no, no.
And there is a lot of grief,right?
There is a lot of grief over theexpectations and the things that
we do want.
And I think there's lots ofreasons why people continue to
be in that pattern of like, thisis what my parents or my
grandparents expect of me.
Right.
Kat (31:45):
I think that you can go along with that and it not
destroy you.
And I think that's whyindividually we need to like, be
able to navigate that.
Yeah.
Like I was listening to an audiobook and someone who said this
phrase that stuck up in my headthat they honored the
expectations of their culture.
And I think they were talkingabout a, a girl in India that
she honored the expectations ofher culture.
(32:06):
And I was like, in order forthat human to survive, she
needed to have this arrangedmarriage to get married young
mm-hmm And, and in our Westernculture that really grace
against us, we don't like that.
Right.
But that there was a way therewas a path forward for that
young woman to like, to find Godand to center herself and to do
these things.
But she still wanted to honorthe expectations of our culture.
(32:27):
So again, there's lots of nuancehere.
I'm never gonna be like,everyone should cut everyone
off, but like when we do theinside work, we find out what
can I bear?
What can I not bear?
What's harming me.
And what's limiting me for myown growth and my own healing.
Val (32:43):
Well, and you know I've shared that my first job in San
Francisco was in the ChineseAmerican community here.
I love all the cultural nuancesand, it was the first time I
really saw this real honoring ofelders and real,
Kat (32:55):
and I oh yeah.
In the Asian
Val (32:57):
community.
Yeah.
In the Asian community andtalking to friends like, you
know, that's a mixed bag.
Like, yes, it's beautiful.
And also, right.
There's tons of expectations aswell.
Even my grandmother the story islike her father lived to be 95
and was really nasty.
Kat (33:11):
And she
Val (33:12):
to do everything for her.
And so she's expecting, and oneday she said to me, you know,
the priest was preaching cuz shegoes the mass and he said, you
know, it's the new times andthings are different.
So she goes, so I gotta get withthe new
Kat (33:23):
times.
Val (33:23):
I'm like, okay
Kat (33:24):
oh, 95.
Val (33:25):
I tell, I actually tell clients, my older clients, the
task of the older generations isto allow the younger generations
to live in more freedom.
Yeah.
And softness right.
Than they had without using itagainst them or becoming bitter.
Kat (33:40):
Absolutely.
Val (33:40):
And actually too the power piece, because I think it was
wielded, right?
The more that people havefreedom and power of choice, the
expectations can't be wielded soheavily, right?
Like, did women want arrangedmarriages back in the day.
No, but what were there otheroptions society has given them
no other choice.
Right, right,
Kat (33:59):
This conversation keeps, make me think of the idea of
like people who have liketraumatic pasts or whatever,
like the idea that like thisgenerational trauma ends with
me.
Mm-hmm And that's something thatwas a concept that I came
across, like in my, you know,late teens, I think.
I remember it being almost likea vow I was making, I, it felt
so loud in my body mm-hmm andthen like, I was literally 20
(34:21):
years old.
I was already outta college atthat point.
And I, I was feeling a lot ofemotional turmoil, right?
Like I was away from my familyof origin and I was starting to
feel a lot of emotional distressand it was just healing that was
trying to, you know, it wasready to move through.
When you're, continuallysubjected to a dysfunctional
(34:42):
environment or traumaticenvironment you're activated.
And so you're just in survivalmode and you move away from it
enough.
And you have a little space andyou create a little bit of
safety, you know, like we can beflooded with these emotions
because as a coping mechanism,we just shove it down.
Mm-hmm right.
And you find a way to keepgoing.
I chose to be very pleasing andI chose to be like academically
(35:04):
strong and I got out.
Right.
And then after college, it wasall there waiting for me.
And it, it really, like, I canhear myself willing it because
it it's very unfair.
Val (35:17):
Mm.
Kat (35:19):
It doesn't serve us to like linger in the space with the
fact that this is unfair, thatwe can have experiences that we
don't have any control of yeah.
In our family of origin, but wedon't wanna perpetuate that harm
yeah.
In the world.
And we don't wanna perpetuateour own suffering or anyone
behind us they're suffering.
And so the amount of work toheal and be whole yeah, I think
(35:44):
sometimes we make thesedecisions.
Like it ends with me.
Mm-hmm I, I know that I had nofucking idea what I was signing
on for when I made that vow tomyself.
Cause it's, it's huge work tolike heal enough to be whole.
But then also we talked aboutbefore how like in our cells and
our DNA is trauma.
That's not even ours, you know,mm-hmm, it carries through from
(36:06):
generations, you know?
Yeah.
and just the amount of trauma inthose stories alone, let alone
all of them that I don't knowthat go on and on and on.
And so I just know that like,even though it's.
Not perfect and not easy.
Like I I'm, I'm doing it like,like the culture of the family
that I live in now and my ownchildren, The relationship that
(36:28):
I have with them when theybecome adults will be because
they want to, not because I'mtelling them that
Val (36:33):
they
Kat (36:34):
have to, they owe something to me because I carried them
around in my body and I raisedthem for how many years, you
know what I
Val (36:39):
mean?
Sure.
Yeah.
Kat (36:40):
they get to be free in the world because I did all this
fucking work to try to get freemyself, you know?
Val (36:46):
Yeah.
Kat (36:47):
It's not a small thing, but it, it is, the thing that I'm
most proud of, of my whole life,you know,
Val (36:53):
Mm.
Kat (36:53):
like to, to choose, to engage and to heal and to get
free and to get free and to getfree is fucking beautiful and
hard, but worth it, you know?
And then you're like a softhuman in the world so much so
that you go to a Broadwaymusical and you're like welling
up with tears.
You know what I mean?
You're like moved by beauty andyou're moved by a sunset you're
(37:16):
like deeply moved and impacted,you know what I mean?
Val (37:20):
And that, I think opens me up to, the suffering, you know,
and actually when my dad died, Iremember being at my mom's house
back from San Francisco, and Ijust was crying.
And I was like, just afraid thatyou're gonna ask me, or you're
gonna expect me to come back andlive with you because my dad had
died.
And she said, I would never askthat of you.
You need to go live your life.
And I don't.
(37:41):
I think, I sense things thatmaybe people aren't saying, but
my mom hasn't, really grasp atthings.
But I think when you care,right, and you feel people
suffering, you don't want themto suffer.
Right.
And, and so I think I'm justgetting to the place where I'm
okay with what I can do.
What I can do.
Because it feels like when I goback there, the undertone.
(38:03):
And again, I should probably ownmy own stuff.
Maybe it's maybe I'm, I'm makingit up.
I don't know if I am, but I'mmoving to that possibility.
But, but there's the undertonethat, and if you were just here,
things would be better.
Yeah.
Kat (38:17):
Well, you might be picking up on someone's actual belief,
even if they won't say that outloud.
Right.
Or a belief that you have.
And like right.
When I bump into stuff likethat, I offer that belief,
compassion.
I say it out loud and then yousee if that belief will, will
move because it's creatingsuffering.
Right.
Mm-hmm And so, yeah, like likethe reason why I've been able to
(38:38):
like move away from all thattrauma and all that, that hard
stuff is like, at this point inmy life, I have a very deep
compassion practice, like avery, very deep self-compassion
practice where like, it took alot to get here, but like,
whenever we have any of thosekind of feelings, especially,
they can be so tender whenthey're related to family origin
stuff.
Right.
These are the human beings thatlike we're around us when we
(39:02):
were the most vulnerable.
And this was how we werelearning about what love is.
Right.
And then if people didn't havethe skills to be excellent at
it.
Yeah.
Or even just good enough yeah.
Yeah.
If they caused harm because theydidn't heal from the harm that
was done to them, you know,mm-hmm, like, that's all real
tender.
So.
We need to be able to live andcultivate compassion for
(39:22):
ourselves.
And then, and then it can beextended to other people.
What's interesting is that myself-compassion practice has
increased my what's thetolerance again?
I don't know why.
I never remember the phrase testtolerance.
It's increased my distresstolerance, not just for me, but
like to trust someone else ontheir journey.
Mm-hmm like, that's their story.
And if I have capacity toalleviate suffering within my
(39:45):
like circle of people, I'm Ilove to do that.
That makes me so happy.
I'm gonna bring you food, youget sick.
I'm gonna bring you some soup.
I make really good soup butbeyond that, I'm just going to
trust someone in their story,you know, which I feel like I
still have a hard time lettingit come outta my mouth, but
(40:05):
it's, that I zoom out that's myMo I zoom out enough to be like,
I feel like the universe.
Is is for us somehow,
Val (40:13):
right?
Mm.
Kat (40:13):
is a benevolent, I don't know, entity.
And so I am not the savior ofthe world.
Right.
And again, that's deconstructingfrom all of that stuff in
Christianity, but also in likewhat we, as, as fem people in
the world have been taught to doto alleviate and nurture and to
heal all the suffering.
Right.
(40:34):
And so I, I sort of removemyself from that and my
compassion practice means I'msofter in the world to myself
and to others.
And it somehow means I havebetter boundaries than I've ever
Val (40:45):
had.
Mm.
Kat (40:46):
And then I get to be compassionate with myself and
others about how the boundariesdo create grief.
Right.
Val (40:53):
Yeah.
Well, and I, I think, likeyou're saying about the martyr
or savior, like I wasparticipating in that, right.
I was raised that way or you.
As a fem person to be pleasingand to take care of everyone
and, and all of that.
So I probably leaned into thatrole more in the past.
But just being very okay withthat martyrdom doesn't feel good
Kat (41:13):
it does not feel good.
Val (41:14):
Then creating our own, chosen families, right.
I know you talk a lot about inthe queer community that's a lot
of times necessary becausethere's so much rejection.
Right.
And people who, come to citiesto live, like you have to find
family.
And a lot of those needs arebeing met in, in the church
actually.
And I just found too, like Itold my mom do not listen to
this podcast.
(41:35):
cause she's a good mom.
And she like, wants to like, youknow, listen to all the things I
do and whatever.
And I was like, do not listen.
She's like why?
I'm like, cuz there's a lot ofswearing.
Well, why is there swearing?
Because that's how I talk momoh, and we're talking about
stuff that I don't, you, youwill not agree
Kat (41:52):
Yeah.
Val (41:53):
And I don't know that it's right.
Yeah.
Like, so I think sometimes evenjust like the people that you
are born from, like if, ifthey're not approving of what
you do, then there isn't thatinterest or, right.
so I think the more dissonancethere is in a family where,
like, oh, well, I don't agreewith what you're doing, so I'll
never ask you about it.
And so then it's like all theseparts of you that you don't
(42:15):
share with them.
Right.
And then finding like that needto find community and people
that do resonate with that.
And I do believe like, you know,that, that we do need a
community and people around us.
I just think it, can't always beour family.
Kat (42:31):
You know what else I'm thinking about right now?
First of all, I really agreewith that sentence.
And then additionally, I thinkthat okay.
As we grow and we evolve, wesometimes outgrow people.
Right.
Mm-hmm And so even having someflexibility around our chosen
family, right.
The, the humans that we're closewith, we might be close with
(42:53):
them for two years, 10 years, 20years.
Yeah.
And then, You might grow apartand that's not wrong.
Yeah.
And so, again, our culture, likewe glorify relationships that,
you know, last forever, youknow, oh, I met this friend in
kindergarten and we've beenfriends, our whole lives.
That's a beautiful story.
Sure.
Have you been close and intimatethe whole time?
That's amazing how beautiful youget to have that companion for
(43:16):
your whole journey.
Lucky, lucky.
right.
Yeah.
But then that hasn't been mystory.
I mean, I picked up and I movedaway and I moved again and I
moved again and I would havelike groups of people that were
resonant we're close with andthen like more shifts and where
evolution happens.
Mm-hmm and then I'm noticingthat like, people keep showing
(43:36):
up.
Right.
And if I take the time to invitehumans that I actually feel
resonance with versus like, Ineed to make sure I never let go
of this particular relationshipbecause it was meaningful to me
once mm-hmm it doesn't actuallyserve them or me.
I can hold everyone
Val (43:54):
it loosely.
Oh.
And there are seasons of life.
Like I've shared that in thepodcast where friends of ours
who had young kids, like, I, Idid get hurt and I could be hurt
or just letting it just flow inand out and leaving the door
open for when a season changesthat there can be this closeness
again, or maybe not, and justnormalizing relationships kind
of coming that flux being okay.
Kat (44:16):
Yeah.
Normalize that shit.
as you were just saying that Iwas sort of thinking about like,
when you and I first met, youknow, we were in Bible college
and we were like 16, 17 yearsold.
Right.
Mm-hmm And then we, we've neverbeen as close as we are right
now.
Mm-hmm and I think that's kindof fun and funny.
Like we just, like, we met solong ago and we've just sort of
(44:37):
always kind of checked in, like,I've always admired you and
thought that you were likebrilliant and delightful and
gorgeous and wonderful.
Right.
You were always someone that Iwas just enjoyed.
Yeah.
And then, you know, it's justbeen, you know, these decades.
Right.
And I think, I think this fallit's 28 years that we met wow.
28 years ago.
(44:59):
and so like, how fucking cool isthat, that like it's at this
window, right?
We're in our mid forties.
And like, this is where thisbeautiful blooming gets to
happen.
I think that's so cool.
And the, the fact that we bothhad to like evolve and shift and
change a whole lot.
Val (45:16):
Right?
Yes.
Kat (45:17):
I think that's amazing.
Val (45:18):
I think it's
Kat (45:19):
amazing.
Val (45:19):
too.
Kat (45:21):
Hey, you feel like family, to me, I'm so grateful.
Mm
Val (45:24):
Mm I'm so grateful too.
Thanks, KA.
Kat (45:26):
Yay.
yay.
Val (45:28):
family.
Ah, yeah.
Kat (45:32):
Well, I thank you everyone for, you know, this felt a
little like messy, but familiesare messy,
Val (45:38):
right?
Families are
Kat (45:39):
and that's okay.
Human relationships are messy.
And I think that's the thingabout like, family is intimate
in a way that's different than alot of our other relationships.
Right.
And so it is messier cuz you're,you're in tighter, you're in
close, you're cohabitating,right.
For parts of our lives.
So
Val (45:54):
yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I hope we just, you know,continuing the conversation of,
Kat (45:59):
of healing and boundaries and holding loosely and yeah,
Val (46:04):
yeah, People living more authentic lives and, and making
choices out of their own.
Will when we're in that victimmode of like, oh, I have to do
it and I have no choices andwell, they're expecting it of
me.
That can feel good but then whenwe realize that we actually have
agency, yes.
Then there's freedom.
There's responsibility.
Cuz now we have to take actionor we can check action.
(46:25):
Right.
And something's just not beingdone to us.
There's so much more freedomwith that responsibility.
Right.
And maybe it's just that like.
You don't wanna call yourgrandma every week.
Kat (46:38):
yeah.
Val (46:38):
And maybe there are some relationships that are really,
causing some pain that have tobe, re reexamined.
Kat (46:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think it's, it takes a lotof bravery and I think that we
can be brave.
We can be brave to centerourselves in our life and take
responsibility for our own wellwellness and
Val (46:57):
well mm-hmm,
Kat (46:58):
if you move out of those expectations and you get to be
who you are, you gotta fuckinglook yourself in the mirror.
I mean, think about that's hardwork.
Val (47:05):
Yeah.
You know, your family wants youto be at Thanksgiving all day
and the next day and the nextday, and you are like this sucks
and whatever it may be.
I, I don't want to be here.
This is painful.
And a lot of people in the lastcouple years have realized, oh,
I'm out of alignment with myfamily.
This is really painful.
Kat (47:24):
Right.
Val (47:24):
What about if you were like, you know what, we're gonna
stop by for dessert.
Yeah.
And say, you know what?
I care about my family.
I want to be in connection.
I wanna say hi, I wanna hugeverybody, whatever it is.
Right.
And we're just gonna come fordessert.
Right.
And do that out of like, well,my value is I wanna keep
relationship with these people.
Right?
these people happen to berelated to and how different
(47:46):
that might be to even just thinkoutside of the box and, and
start to do things that feelbetter.
Like how much better would thatfeel to just be intentional
Kat (47:54):
yes, I know.
Oh my gosh.
I
Val (47:57):
love sounds good.
I love
Kat (47:58):
job.
I love you, Val.
I
Val (48:02):
you cat until next time.
Kat (48:04):
Bye everybody.
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
I love Valerie.
Val (00:35):
hello,
Kat (00:36):
Oh my God.
I missed you.
Val (00:38):
I miss you too.
I'm doing a little happy dance.
Kat (00:40):
You are together.
Yay.
Val (00:44):
How do you feel about a partner?
Who's who's always traveling
Kat (00:48):
well, I love that you're living your life, right?
And when you are away, I justmake do right.
but I'm like, oh, I like it somuch better when you're in town.
And I get to like, have this,you know, weekly, regular, like
we get to talk our hearts outtogether
Val (01:04):
we do.
Kat (01:05):
and then talk about stuff like this synergy of being in
the same space with you.
Honestly, like always makes mefeel better.
It really, really does.
I love it.
Yeah,
Val (01:14):
good.
Isn't
Kat (01:14):
Yeah.
You're one of the humans in mylife that always makes me feel
better.
Aw.
Val (01:18):
that's sweet.
Kat (01:19):
Yeah, I think we're like vibrating.
Similarly.
there's a deep resonance in ourvibe.
Val (01:30):
Yes.
I'm back.
We did our little east coasttour, we went to Miami saw the
bubble family had a great timewith them.
Checked in on our investments,
Kat (01:39):
that a good weather
Val (01:40):
got to swim in the warm ocean.
Then we went to New York city,
Kat (01:44):
New York city
Val (01:45):
where RAI got to live out his musical
Kat (01:48):
dreams.
Val (01:48):
We, we saw the last show of the Tina Turner
Kat (01:52):
story.
Oh my God.
Val (01:53):
know it.
Got it.
Got canceled.
During Christmas because ofOmicron.
and that man,
Kat (01:58):
Oh, he loves Tina Turner so much.
Val (02:01):
seeing so much.
If you know, she's a part of herorigin story.
Kat (02:04):
I know.
I love that story.
Do you remember what episodethat's on?
There's this great story thatVal tells about one of her early
dates with her feet where I
Val (02:11):
which episode, but basically, yeah, I picked him up
and he was watching a
Kat (02:15):
TV.
Val (02:15):
Turner concert, DVT, and I was like, and then he booed all
my girlfriends by, they werethought he was stupid at
Kat (02:21):
first.
Val (02:21):
so he loves, oh, he loves student Turners.
So that was amazing.
And then the Michael Jacksonmusical as well, and you know,
he broke out some real MichaelJackson moves at our dance
parties.
he did it on our friend'swedding.
the, the bride's sister.
And, and he got into this likeMichael Jackson dance
Kat (02:39):
battle.
Oh my God.
That's hilarious.
Val (02:41):
with like black
Kat (02:42):
fedoras,
Val (02:43):
cuz it was like 2008, I guess.
Kat (02:45):
Oh, that's awesome.
Val (02:46):
I remember in a couple episodes ago I talked about
crying during music.
Kat (02:49):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Val (02:50):
I was crying again.
KA, we're gonna do an episodeabout this once I do some more
research
Kat (02:56):
About it.
Val (02:56):
I, I really am because I'm so fascinated about this.
It wasn't like, like it was amoving part of the show, but my
body was just like overwhelmed
Kat (03:05):
by it.
Mm-hmm
Val (03:06):
I really thought I could go into the full heaving body,
like, weeping.
I had to stop myself
Kat (03:14):
you're in public and you don't wanna seem odd.
Yeah.
Is that
Val (03:17):
yeah, I'd get made fun
Kat (03:18):
of them.
Val (03:18):
my husband.
Kat (03:20):
so it's not the public,
Val (03:21):
I don't know, the full on body heaving cry.
It's
Kat (03:26):
Totally.
Val (03:27):
So I, we were our masks
Kat (03:29):
it's and cleansing and, and it releases it's catharsis.
It's our body's way of lettingshit out.
Maybe that's
Val (03:36):
just it, but it's happening at weird times.
So then, okay.
I'll come back to this, but fastforward to the end of our trip,
we're in this gorgeousamphitheater in San Diego with
refis twin peacock, twin, whowe're watching the gypsy Kings
and probably doesn't surpriseanyone, but she dated a gypsy
king when she was
Kat (03:53):
like, I don't even know what gypsy king is.
Val (03:56):
it's a band.
Okay.
Bule, you'll hear them.
It's very like guitar.
Kat (04:00):
fun.
Val (04:01):
Anyway.
It was amazing.
Cuz there was like six rhythmguitars.
So it felt
Kat (04:04):
Like
Val (04:05):
just this rush of man, I love music.
I ah, and it was amazing.
Everything was so beautiful.
And I was like, you know what,here, I don't care.
I'm gonna cry.
I'm gonna let it go.
I'm not gonna stop myself.
Yeah.
And then I didn't feel it atall.
Kat (04:20):
all.
That's so funny.
Val (04:24):
I'm a mystery.
I, I own a mystery.
And then we went to Connecticutto see my family.
And it was a very interestingexperience.
And so I thought, oh, maybe it'stime.
We do an episode about family
Kat (04:35):
matters.
Val (04:36):
Should we call it the, this episode family matters or family
ties?
Or is there another show fromthe nineties that we could, you
know, rip off the title, butanyway, title T B D but I just
had some really conflicting,interesting, like everybody
seemed to
Kat (04:52):
to be
Val (04:53):
healthier and it's so funny that I have to say.
but healthy is always aeuphemism for like their
skinnier, right.
Like, so I ha I feel like I haveto say, it's not like, oh,
people lost weight.
It was that people just seemedmore vivacious.
Like more active, happier, like,not as stressed, even my mom's
dog was healthier.
(05:13):
Even our friend's dog washealthier.
I guess it was the pandemic.
And we, we minimize it so much.
Kat (05:19):
so like, because of all the stillness that, you know, we
collectively all had to likeengage in that, coming up out of
it.
People seem a little bit morelike alive, more vibrant.
Val (05:29):
But I think the stress and the sickness.
Yeah.
Right.
We also saw my, one of my mom'sbest friends was my first boss
ever.
My first job, Joanne fabrics.
Yes.
I'm a crafting and sewing nerdto thank you very much.
Do you remember in college?
Okay.
Everybody was getting marriedbecause that was what you were
supposed to do.
And so me and my best friend atthe time, we would make wedding
(05:51):
albums.
This was back in.
Kat (05:54):
oh yes, fuck.
I remember
Val (05:56):
they were like plush covered with different
Kat (05:59):
I'm so gross out right now.
Val (06:01):
And so I was like the creative
Kat (06:03):
lace sticking out of the end.
I remember I can picture you inyour room working on these
things.
Oh my God.
That's
Val (06:10):
hilarious.
And then, well, okay.
So I would do the creative likevision and then my my best
friend could really cut astraight line.
Kat (06:19):
that's such a skill.
I
Val (06:20):
She, she was more of the executor of the fine details.
But that was, and then we wouldgive them to our friends who are
getting married.
And so then Joanne fabrics, Iwould.
I actually did classes andtaught other people how to make
these like fabric scrapbookphoto albums.
And if you happen to be
Kat (06:36):
upholstered the outside of a, of a scrapbook, a photo
album.
That's what you've done.
Val (06:40):
done.
So if you're a, a millennialgen, well, no, if you're gen Z
we used to actually print ourphotos
Kat (06:46):
yeah.
Val (06:47):
and put them in a book.
And so isn't that funny?
Yeah.
Why was I telling that storydating?
Kat (06:52):
ourselves cuz you're crafty your boss.
Val (06:54):
And I really loved her and I'm like, you know what?
You'd be good friends with mymom And so after I went to
college, My mom got a job there.
Kat (07:02):
Oh my
Val (07:03):
they've been friends for like what, 30 years?
She came to our wedding.
Kat (07:06):
Wow.
Val (07:07):
And she was in a car accident, a hit and run.
I know.
And the person just fled thescene.
So she was, yeah.
So she was like at 70 now she'sdoing better.
Yeah.
So everybody just felthealthier.
So it was really great to seethat.
And we had a great time andthere was some, also some other
family dynamics going
Kat (07:25):
on
Val (07:25):
when my, my nephew's birthday.
So we went over there, hadlittle cake and They got all
kinds of Nerf guns and Nerfgrenade, like all this stuff,
these boys are running around.
So, so RAI gets in the mix.
Oh my uncle.
Yeah.
And I'm like, oh gosh, watchthis.
And so he starts yelling guys,you know, I don't know how to
play.
(07:46):
Okay.
Cause I was like, watch out cuzhe has no mercy on kids.
Like I, he has no mercy.
You play with him.
He's a terrible loser.
He is.
He's gotten mad during cardgames that we plays with our
friends.
And I'm like, are you kidding meright now?
This is a game.
So he's there with the Nerf gunsand then he'll just let the kids
hit him.
(08:06):
And then he's like, oh, youdone?
Okay.
Pop, pop.
He's like hitting kids in theglasses.
I'm like, dude, So he keepssaying, I don't know how to
play.
And I was like, no, you don'tknow how to play well with
others.
Okay.
These are small children.
So then
Kat (08:22):
small are they?
How small
Val (08:23):
They're 10.
They're not that small.
No, he, no.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
These kids.
So we found out he has bruisesall over his
Kat (08:31):
oh, shit
Val (08:32):
where the kids were hanging out
Kat (08:33):
God.
Val (08:33):
So that was fun.
Oh my gosh.
Then we took a ferry to see mygrandmother who was gonna turn
94.
She is a wild child.
Kat (08:42):
And she lives where
Val (08:44):
at long island,
Kat (08:45):
long
Val (08:45):
island.
Yes.
She's like the nanny'sgrandmother.
That's, that's how she talks.
And I have a classic grandmastory.
Maybe I'll tell after oh man,this woman.
I mean, she's a riot.
We saw her and then went to theairport
Kat (08:58):
Okay.
Val (08:58):
yeah.
And then flew home.
And
Kat (09:00):
I just wanna hear you talk like you're grandma some more.
Val (09:03):
Oh gosh.
I wanna tell the grandma story.
But should I tell it now orafter the break?
What, what do you think weshould do?
Kat (09:09):
Yeah, let's save it for the break.
Come on back, everybody.
We're gonna hear Val talk likeher grandma.
thanks for joining us.
We'll be right back.
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Val (10:13):
Yay.
All right.
Kat (10:15):
Oh, come right in talking like your grandma.
Val (10:18):
I'm so glad you came.
You're gorgeous.
You're looking gorgeous.
Thanks for my chocolates.
Okay.
Funny enough.
She is.
Kat (10:24):
is like a
Val (10:25):
A chocolate monster.
She loves chocolate so much thatI, my mom didn't want me to have
sugar, all that.
So like, my second Easter, shegrabs me from my mother.
As soon as we walk into herhouse, runs to the kitchen and
starts shoving, like chocolateeggs into my mouth.
My whole time, my mom gets in, Ihave like chocolate
Kat (10:45):
oh my gosh.
Val (10:46):
And she was like, yeah, it's very rigid personality.
She doesn't know how to play
Kat (10:50):
either.
Val (10:51):
So maybe that's why her and her feet get along so well.
But she's just been such a bigfigure in, in our lives and So
once I brought CI candy syrups,I'm like, well, grandma, love
chocolate.
This is the best chocolate Andso I always bring it and She has
no self control when it goes tochocolate.
So one time we find out thatshe's telling my uncle who lives
with her.
Hey hide this chocolate fromyou.
(11:11):
Cuz she'll eat the whole poundbox in, in one sitting.
She's like hide this from me.
Hide this from me.
I can't get it.
Just, just don't listen to me.
Hide it from
Kat (11:19):
me.
Val (11:21):
She wanted the chocolate so bad that she woke him up in the
middle of the night.
Where's my chocolate where mychocolate
Kat (11:29):
Oh my God.
Val (11:30):
and she's all, she's not even five foot tall.
He hit it where she couldn'treach it.
I think he put it the freezerand she woke this man up for the
middle of sleep just to get herchocolate.
Kat (11:41):
Oh my God.
Oh gosh.
Val (11:42):
So there's a lot of comedy.
There's a lot of comedy relief.
Kat (11:46):
Yeah.
Val (11:46):
if you let me, my favorite story, can I tell it?
Of
Kat (11:49):
Of course,
Val (11:50):
so my grandma calls me now, if you know her, it is the duty
of the children and thegrandchildren to call the
grandma.
She should not lift a finger tocall you.
That is your job.
So I see her calling.
I'm like, shit, what'shappening.
So I'm at work this is about,six, seven years
Kat (12:07):
ago.
Sure.
Val (12:08):
Grandma what's wrong.
Well, Valerie Rafi just calledme asking for money and I mean,
I would love to give it to himcuz you're my granddaughter.
But I told him no.
Now in that millisecond.
Kat (12:18):
Yeah.
Val (12:19):
I had divorced RAI
Kat (12:22):
it's like, it's it?
Val (12:24):
What is going on in his world?
That he is keeping from me andasking my old grandma for money.
Right.
I was like, that's it it's over.
Kat (12:33):
oh no.
So bads happening.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Val (12:36):
Maybe show some of my own neurosis.
Kat (12:39):
right.
Val (12:39):
Worst case scenario jumper am I?
I was like, grandma, what areyou talking about?
And I'm like mortified and
Kat (12:45):
embarra.
Val (12:46):
And she's like, well, he called me to tell me that he was
in Mexico and he went to jailand he told me that he was at a
wedding.
And so he needed me to send himmoney.
So first of all, she goes, Nowyou're my granddaughter.
So of course I would wanna givehim money, but, you know, I just
did my floors.
I don't have that kind of cashflying around.
(13:07):
I was like, what?
and plus, why is he in Mexicowithout my granddaughter?
At a wedding?
Without my granddaughter.
I don't like it.
I don't like it at all.
he had worked for the airlinesand he had just been in Mexico
the
Kat (13:20):
week Oh my
Val (13:21):
And of course he's so impulsive that he might actually
be in Mexico.
And I was like, grandma, I'm 99%sure that he's at working at the
airport right now.
He's not in Mexico.
She goes but then when I said, Ididn't have any money with me.
The guy told me where I could goand pull out money.
And then when I told him I don'tdrive anymore, he hung up the
(13:42):
phone.
I said, oh grandma, that was ascammer.
I'm so glad that you outsmartedthem.
The best part of this though, isthat she was like, you know,
anyways, if he really was injail, I need to check with you
first because you're the wife.
She goes, how do I know youdon't wanna stay in jail for a
(14:03):
few days?
Kat (14:08):
Oh my
Val (14:09):
God.
OG.
Kat (14:10):
she's.
Yeah.
Yeah, she is.
Val (14:13):
So was working at, for the airline at the time and he like,
couldn't be on his phone.
So I text him nine one, oneemergency called me and like,
what?
Okay, where are you?
He's like, I'm at the airport.
What's wrong.
I'm like, okay.
I think someone was trying to mygrandma goodbye.
there could been a slight
Kat (14:32):
a slight oh my God.
Oh my
Val (14:33):
a
Kat (14:34):
good
Val (14:37):
So then I tell Ravi the whole story, and then he's like,
wait a minute, your grandma wasgonna let RO in jail.
Kat (14:44):
Yeah,
Val (14:44):
So when we call her, he is like, again, he doesn't know how
to play.
He's like, well, grandma, youbetter hope that you never go to
jail because I'm not bailing youout.
You better not call me.
Kat (14:55):
Jesus Christ.
Val (14:56):
he's he keeps a grudge.
He can keep a grudge.
Kat (15:00):
Oh shit.
That's funny.
Val (15:02):
Oh gosh.
So that's one of my best grandmastories, But I saw her, and I
saw the rest of my family and itwas such a mixed bag.
So that's what I wanna talkabout today.
And I feel like there's aspectrum, right?
There's a spectrum of people onone end is.
Kat (15:16):
like
Val (15:16):
I have some friends and actually, I adopted myself into
one of these large families whenI was here by myself.
Right.
And, you know, everyone gottogether for, for all the
holidays and, and after churchand, and everybody really seemed
like they got along.
No family is perfect or there'snot sacrifices or challenges or
little TIFs, whatever.
But I, I think that on the oneend, there are people that their
(15:39):
families feel
Kat (15:39):
like a safe place,
Val (15:40):
like a safe place, a mutual place.
And there's not maybe therigidity or the like power and
coercion, Aren used as much toget you to be there.
Right.
Right.
People seem to want to be there.
So we have a few friends thatthey, they have these big
families, especially in the bayarea where a lot of people come
here.
Not a lot of people.
(16:01):
we're raised here and havefamily here.
It's such a luxury in one senseand then I think on the other
end, right, is, is that peoplewho have had to cut family off
made that decision, because itfeels very unsafe or one sided
or unhealthy all those things.
And then I feel like there'slots of people in the middle,
right.
Trying to just trying to
Kat (16:22):
figure out, just navigate it.
Yeah.
Navigate family of origin.
Relationships is tricky.
Messy.
Because families are made up ofhuman beings, right?
Yes.
And all of us as human beings,we have like all of our
bullshit.
Right.
We've got like trauma andhealing and stuff that needs to
happen.
We have like our shortcomings,we have our light in our dark.
Right.
People are complicated and youthrow people and you bind them
(16:42):
together in a little unit.
Right.
And they create a subculture oftheir own.
Yeah.
And then as you grow and mature,like, is that a place that you
wanna continue to participate inyeah.
Val (16:53):
In grad school I learned the concept of family rules,
Uhhuh, and like how familieshave these rules that like,
they're not even aware of, butthey're abiding by them.
So both me and one of mybrothers married people that
work quite a bit more like onthe edge, we're the like prudish
ones, I guess.
of our spouses were with us andour mom and they were saying
things like talking about sex orsexy things, and it's like, We
(17:15):
don't, we don't do that in ourfamily.
We don't say that around ourmother, but they don't know the
family rules.
Kat (17:20):
Yeah.
Val (17:21):
Right.
Or even just like that.
My mom controls the radio.
I mean, I guess that, like,that's a regular, but like RCOs
put on some kind of, you know,secular music and it's like,
you're gonna get in trouble.
Kat (17:34):
Oh my gosh.
Val (17:35):
Let's see how this goes.
Let me just step back and watch,but realizing like, oh, those
are family rules yeah.
So then you bring in the in-laws
Kat (17:42):
and right.
and,
Val (17:43):
spouses as well or partners.
Oh my gosh.
It is messy.
And so I think actually thehardest work is to keep some
sort of relationship withfamily.
Yeah.
And navigate it.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, all of it is painful.
Right.
Whenever let's be real.
But no, what I meant was if youhad to cut off your family, that
(18:05):
is also painful, but
Kat (18:07):
sure, sure, sure, sure.
So the idea of this episode wasthat we were just gonna talk
about like, as adult people.
Yeah.
What does it look like tonavigate relationships with your
family origin, especially likeyou and I, we both lived far
away from our family originbefore we did the episode, I
looked it up I'm 2,355 milesaway from my
Val (18:26):
parents.
Oh,
Kat (18:27):
and so I, Grew up in a dysfunctional family.
And then I did have childhoodtrauma as a part of my lived
experience.
And I was thinking about like,you know, human beings and, and
the culture we live in.
There's, there's kind of thisidea that like, you have to
maintain relationship with yourfamily of origin because you
know, blood is thicker thanwater.
And I don't, I don't subscribeto that anymore.
(18:48):
Like, I, I did a lot of shiftingand changing and evolving.
I choose to spend my time and myenergy with people who like, I
feel resonance with, you know?
And so my family of origin, Theycan't meet me where I am really.
And so I have a really limitedrelationship with only a couple
of them.
Yeah.
Right.
And then the rest, I reallydon't.
And you know, that was a longprocess to get there, but I
(19:10):
started to see it modeled andsome of my adult relationships
where they're like, yeah, Idon't talk to my family anymore.
You know?
And if someone had harmed you,who was not related to you, you
would not have a culturalexpectation to maintain
relationship with that person.
Yeah.
Who caused harm
Val (19:25):
unbelievable.
Kat (19:25):
Right, but because family, yeah.
And so that was a, that was areally big arc for me.
And I would say that ourrelationship with you know,
fundamentalist Christianity likekept me in those relationships a
lot longer.
Like I thought it was my job tobe so forgiving
Val (19:41):
and
Kat (19:41):
I still had to like witness to them.
I had to like, make sure, like,somehow it was my responsibility
to be in a relationship thatwith people that had cost harm
and save them, Ooh, yucky gross,yucky gross.
And so when I healed enough tobe like, oh, I don't have to do
that.
Whenever I speak with this oneperson, it's very dysregulating.
like, wow.
(20:02):
I feel like shit for hours.
And sometimes days when thisperson reaches out to me and
calls unexpectedly, like my God,you know, I was in my early
twenties when I started torecognize that pattern.
And you know, it, it was anotherlike several years before I went
to therapy for the first timeand learned like, I don't have
to be in relationship withanybody.
Yeah.
(20:23):
Yeah.
I don't have to be inrelationship with anybody that,
that it does not feel good in mybody.
Yeah.
I have decided you know, I stillcheck in with my mom and that
dynamic is, is fine.
You know, we don't talkregularly.
And like, I don't I dunno, it'snot like a, a traditional mother
daughter dynamic that, you know,we might think of, but, you
know, I love that woman and Iknow that she loves me and we
(20:45):
talk sometimes.
And like we talked just theother day and I don't feel
responsible for her anymore.
Val (20:51):
Mm.
Kat (20:51):
I spent many years as a young teen all the way through
my like early twenties feelinglike, again, it was my job to
save her.
And like, I was always likeeverything I would learn, I was
trying to teach her because shedidn't have all these, these
skills.
And then.
It was just this, it was, it wasan imbalance.
It didn't feel good.
And like, she's not even askingfor my advice about every
(21:12):
fucking thing under the sun.
Right.
I, she's not a project.
Yeah.
So I can, so the journey oflearning how to like accept her
exactly as she is.
Yeah.
And then just show up as exactlyas I am like unapologetically,
she had not a big reaction tothe fact that I came out as gay,
because I was like, I'm, I'mlike, there's no authority.
Like there's no hierarchydynamic that exists.
(21:33):
Mm-hmm between she and I mm-hmmAnd so that feels better.
And so I was like, yeah, I'mgay.
like, and that was fine.
And when I was, you know, beendating someone, I was dating
someone a little while ago.
Val (21:43):
that
Kat (21:44):
I thought might be serious.
I would told my mom about it andmy mom was like, fine.
So, but we don't, we don't talkregularly.
And I, I mean, she's just not aperson that I like, like, I
don't call her when I'm sad.
Right.
I have to call her if I'm, ifI'm in like already good head
space, mm-hmm and I can be alittle bit light with her.
Yeah.
And then during a conversation,if I hear myself falling into
(22:05):
old patterns, which is liketrying to fix her messy life, I
have to get.
Val (22:09):
the phone.
Yeah,
Kat (22:10):
I gotta go now.
Yeah.
And, and that's, that's theextent of intimacy I can have
with, you know, my own mom, butI have other relationships in my
life that I get my needs met,but I'm not expecting my family
of origin to meet needs becausethere were decades of them being
unable to meet my needs and mehaving all this pining and
longing and please meet myneeds, please meet my needs.
(22:31):
They cannot meet my needs.
Yeah.
So I get to create boundaries.
Yeah.
And that was not an easy,overnight decision, and then,
you know, we've talked aboutthis on the podcast.
Like my dad has passed away.
And so I was for many yearstrying so hard to like mend and
fix that relationship.
Cause I loved my dad.
I wanted to, to know him.
But even that I'm like, I wonderwhat it would be like now if you
(22:53):
were still alive, if I wouldstill be wanting that or if I'd
be like, I don't know.
Val (22:56):
Well, man, it's also nuance, isn't it?
Cuz even as I'm thinking abouttalking about some of the
challenges, that I face, mynuclear family, while it was
very chaotic because it wasinfused with ADHD from most
sides.
Right.
It was also very stable, likewhen I went to college realizing
that us eating dinner together,my dad coaching, my sports teams
(23:18):
us having just that stabilityand, you know, no, even just no
abuse.
Like that feels like, whoa,
Kat (23:26):
yeah.
Wow.
Really?
Val (23:27):
But it was also, probably from my sensitive little nervous
system.
Just always chaos.
like my brothers were justwrestling and Everything was
always broken or missing orsomebody getting in trouble or
yelling and all that.
Right.
Which I, I think I'm just onlyrealizing oh, Hey, that probably
had an effect on you.
Kat (23:45):
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Val (23:46):
Because you think well, okay, this was, a safe, healthy,
happy home for, you know, allintents purposes.
But I think, I guess I alsorealized that I was aware from
an early age that there wassadness around there not being a
lot of extended family aroundus, although we did have some,
but I only have three firstcousins.
Kat (24:07):
Yeah.
Wow.
Val (24:08):
And I've only seen them like two or three times in my
life.
And even though my grandmother,which I'll get to in a minute,
but espousing this whole like,oh, she loved to tell me, I'm
like, oh my, my friends, it's sogood.
Oh, friends, believe you, youknow, you can't count on them.
It's your family.
Only your family's gonna careabout you only your family and,
the wild irony of that was I waslike, I don't see that.
(24:30):
I have aunts and uncles that donot talk, have had a nurturing
relationship with me.
Right.
You know, and even mygrandmother's own family, like
she sort of a, I think alienatedherself and also this fierce
independence.
So I actually didn't find that.
And either parent side.
And so I felt like, oh, I feltthat, that, and I think I'm just
(24:51):
realizing this.
I think I felt.
Missing piece of maybe like alarger community.
We always had church friends
Kat (24:58):
and stuff.
Mm-hmm yeah.
Val (24:59):
which was, which was nice, but I always felt that we were
missing that.
And I think some of it wasn'tjust, oh, you came from a
smaller family or, oh, youraunts and uncles didn't have
kids.
There was estrangement mm-hmmand it just wasn't talked
Kat (25:12):
about.
Right, Yeah.
right.
Val (25:13):
There's a lot of shoving things under or changing the
story, but I think a lot of italso was my dad dying young
because that was my grandmotherlost a son.
my mom lost a partner.
We lost a father.
And I think that that sadness.
Kat (25:28):
I
Val (25:29):
I feel it all the time going back there.
And so I was telling you thatgoing back, it was like, wow,
everyone feels like healthier
Kat (25:36):
and more energy.
Val (25:37):
And you know, my mom deals with a chronic illness and I
have a brother who, one brotherwho's has some disabilities and
my other brother's just toobusy.
Yeah.
And you know, I've tried to haverelationship and not, you know,
it's caused me a lot of greatsadness and I just had to
release that expectation.
But then when we go there,
Kat (25:58):
yeah,
Val (25:59):
It was beautiful
Kat (26:00):
This,
Val (26:00):
It was easy and so
Kat (26:02):
good.
Yeah.
Val (26:03):
It was actually confusing.
I was confused.
Like, this feels great, but youfucker can't even return a text
message to me.
You know what I mean?
It's like, it is that outtasight, outta mind with the ADHD
I'm telling you.
Yeah.
And so it was, it was confusing.
One of my brothers have alwayssaid, I think we'd be way closer
if you lived nearby, which Iwould agree with, you know?
(26:23):
There was this, dichotomy oflike, oh, this feels good.
And then also there's just lotsof sadnesses.
My mom's still not, having apartner and going into
retirement.
my little brother just, reallystruggling.
And then my grandma just she'sshe hasn't laid it on thick in a
while, but she was like, if youwere here, this would be your
job.
Aren't you glad you live so faraway?
(26:45):
And I was like, yep.
well, grandma, I left at 17.
And she's just started tosoften, like at 94, like just a
few years ago, it was stilllike, Again, going to grad
school realizing like, oh,there's some,
Kat (26:59):
yeah.
Val (26:59):
I think I know the name for
Kat (27:00):
what
Val (27:01):
you're dealing with and not knowing it was just my grandma's
demanding and she won't letthings go and she's very rigid
about how she thinks life,should go and you can't disagree
with her.
I mean, she'll complain, eventhe good things you do for her.
And so that has been a struggle.
And you know, we've talked aboutboundaries before on the
podcast, we got two greatepisodes about it, but that was
(27:24):
the hardest one.
And when I'm talking to clientsabout like, I know it's hard
work to put those boundaries upwith people who really don't
like boundaries.
And I had to just go through aperiod of time where I was like,
grandma, look, if you want me tokeep calling you I, you can't
talk about
Kat (27:38):
this.
Yeah.
Val (27:40):
She's estranged from, from part of the family.
And I'm like, I can't fix thisfor you.
And I don't want ourrelationship to be about that.
And so I'm gonna hang up thephone if you won't listen to me.
And she didn't like it, andfinally, I was like, look, I'm
doing this because I love you.
And I do want to stay inrelationship with you.
Right.
But this is what I need.
Yeah.
(28:00):
And she did.
And a funny thing too, again,there's generational stuff.
Yeah.
That I realized the older peoplein my family while they might
have good friends.
they don't talk about thepainful stuff with them.
Cuz that's too embarrassing.
I'm like I can't be the one thatyou talk to about
Kat (28:16):
no, no, no, no,
Val (28:17):
no.
So that's been a long journeyand to be honest, it's been tied
up with me about just sort ofthis like savior complex that I
think we get right.
Cuz I, you and I had thisconversation, I talked about
this on the parenting andinfertility episode.
But I, finally got a hold of mythoughts and was, like, why do
you think you always have to dothe hardest thing and make the
biggest
Kat (28:35):
yeah.
Yeah.
Val (28:36):
And why is that what you feel like you need to do?
Yeah.
Oh, because that's, what's,that's, what's taught to us in
this sacrifice, really thegreater, the sacrifice,
Kat (28:46):
Cause God loved us so much that he gave us only begotten
son.
Yeah.
Right.
The greatest sacrifice that God,that was the dogma.
Yeah.
And so you have to be like, God,you would be
Val (28:55):
and then Jesus died.
Right.
So everybody everybody's
Kat (28:58):
every big sacrificing.
Val (28:59):
Yeah.
Kat (28:59):
Oh my God.
Val (29:00):
And right.
I think there are beautifulattributes.
Like more like the fruits of thespirit you would call them like
love, joy and peace and patienceand all of that.
Like, I, I think that it's okayto hold on.
I, I do want to make thissacrifice.
And again, we've talked aboutshould en energy, right.
And why you're doing it.
And are you abandoning yourself,right?
(29:21):
It is all very nuanced, cuz ifsomeone's drowning you, you go
into save them.
Right.
But then also if you don't havea death, wish, you know, where
like this is gonna take me downtoo, I can't help anymore.
Right.
So there's obviously times Ithink that we do decide to
sacrifice or we do decide torelieve someone suffering.
But what I've learned and Ithink what you're talking about
(29:41):
is, is to not lose yourself inthat.
Kat (29:44):
Well, okay.
I'm always gonna keep bringingus back to the body.
Like this is how we navigatethat, because what you're saying
is we we're living our liveswhere there's give and take.
Right.
Mm-hmm and I think that'sappropriate in any relationship,
right?
Yeah.
And so when you live in yourbody, you recognize, oh, you
know, I, I can do this thing.
Yes.
This is a sacrifice I'm willingto make this sacrifice.
(30:05):
It's a conscious choice.
You get to engage in as opposedto the programming and the
expectations that maybe we'regetting from our families of
origin.
Yeah.
And then they're not allowingyou to self-actualize right,
right.
That you must sacrifice in orderto maintain relationship, to
keep the peace.
Yeah.
And when we talk aboutboundaries, especially within
our family of origin, we, wehave to.
(30:27):
Except that there's grief inthis
Val (30:29):
mix.
Mm-hmm
Kat (30:30):
if it's rocks the boat, you have to be fucking brave to rock
the boat enough and then be upfor the fact that it's grief.
You're not gonna get the storythat you want.
The only reason why people arekeeping their external, their
family members happy is cuz theywanna keep the peace.
They want the story of like thishappy family.
All of us would love that story.
That's a great, beautiful story.
(30:51):
I'd love that story.
So we don't get that storyalways.
And so there's grief, right?
If you're gonna uphold aboundary and then at the end of
it, that's why I say like whenwe go through hard and traumatic
things, what we discover therichness within ourselves, I
don't feel desolate because I'mnot in close relationship with
my family of origin, because Ihave an inside space that's been
(31:14):
cultivated where I'm actuallyhonoring myself.
I'm actually centering myself.
I'm learning what my needs are.
And I'm articulating it to thehumans that are in my life that
do resonate with me.
Mm-hmm you know, but holyfucking shit.
That's not an easy path to walk.
Val (31:30):
No, no, no.
And there is a lot of grief,right?
There is a lot of grief over theexpectations and the things that
we do want.
And I think there's lots ofreasons why people continue to
be in that pattern of like, thisis what my parents or my
grandparents expect of me.
Right.
Kat (31:45):
I think that you can go along with that and it not
destroy you.
And I think that's whyindividually we need to like, be
able to navigate that.
Yeah.
Like I was listening to an audiobook and someone who said this
phrase that stuck up in my headthat they honored the
expectations of their culture.
And I think they were talkingabout a, a girl in India that
she honored the expectations ofher culture.
(32:06):
And I was like, in order forthat human to survive, she
needed to have this arrangedmarriage to get married young
mm-hmm And, and in our Westernculture that really grace
against us, we don't like that.
Right.
But that there was a way therewas a path forward for that
young woman to like, to find Godand to center herself and to do
these things.
But she still wanted to honorthe expectations of our culture.
(32:27):
So again, there's lots of nuancehere.
I'm never gonna be like,everyone should cut everyone
off, but like when we do theinside work, we find out what
can I bear?
What can I not bear?
What's harming me.
And what's limiting me for myown growth and my own healing.
Val (32:43):
Well, and you know I've shared that my first job in San
Francisco was in the ChineseAmerican community here.
I love all the cultural nuancesand, it was the first time I
really saw this real honoring ofelders and real,
Kat (32:55):
and I oh yeah.
In the Asian
Val (32:57):
community.
Yeah.
In the Asian community andtalking to friends like, you
know, that's a mixed bag.
Like, yes, it's beautiful.
And also, right.
There's tons of expectations aswell.
Even my grandmother the story islike her father lived to be 95
and was really nasty.
Kat (33:11):
And she
Val (33:12):
to do everything for her.
And so she's expecting, and oneday she said to me, you know,
the priest was preaching cuz shegoes the mass and he said, you
know, it's the new times andthings are different.
So she goes, so I gotta get withthe new
Kat (33:23):
times.
Val (33:23):
I'm like, okay
Kat (33:24):
oh, 95.
Val (33:25):
I tell, I actually tell clients, my older clients, the
task of the older generations isto allow the younger generations
to live in more freedom.
Yeah.
And softness right.
Than they had without using itagainst them or becoming bitter.
Kat (33:40):
Absolutely.
Val (33:40):
And actually too the power piece, because I think it was
wielded, right?
The more that people havefreedom and power of choice, the
expectations can't be wielded soheavily, right?
Like, did women want arrangedmarriages back in the day.
No, but what were there otheroptions society has given them
no other choice.
Right, right,
Kat (33:59):
This conversation keeps, make me think of the idea of
like people who have liketraumatic pasts or whatever,
like the idea that like thisgenerational trauma ends with
me.
Mm-hmm And that's something thatwas a concept that I came
across, like in my, you know,late teens, I think.
I remember it being almost likea vow I was making, I, it felt
so loud in my body mm-hmm andthen like, I was literally 20
(34:21):
years old.
I was already outta college atthat point.
And I, I was feeling a lot ofemotional turmoil, right?
Like I was away from my familyof origin and I was starting to
feel a lot of emotional distressand it was just healing that was
trying to, you know, it wasready to move through.
When you're, continuallysubjected to a dysfunctional
(34:42):
environment or traumaticenvironment you're activated.
And so you're just in survivalmode and you move away from it
enough.
And you have a little space andyou create a little bit of
safety, you know, like we can beflooded with these emotions
because as a coping mechanism,we just shove it down.
Mm-hmm right.
And you find a way to keepgoing.
I chose to be very pleasing andI chose to be like academically
(35:04):
strong and I got out.
Right.
And then after college, it wasall there waiting for me.
And it, it really, like, I canhear myself willing it because
it it's very unfair.
Val (35:17):
Mm.
Kat (35:19):
It doesn't serve us to like linger in the space with the
fact that this is unfair, thatwe can have experiences that we
don't have any control of yeah.
In our family of origin, but wedon't wanna perpetuate that harm
yeah.
In the world.
And we don't wanna perpetuateour own suffering or anyone
behind us they're suffering.
And so the amount of work toheal and be whole yeah, I think
(35:44):
sometimes we make thesedecisions.
Like it ends with me.
Mm-hmm I, I know that I had nofucking idea what I was signing
on for when I made that vow tomyself.
Cause it's, it's huge work tolike heal enough to be whole.
But then also we talked aboutbefore how like in our cells and
our DNA is trauma.
That's not even ours, you know,mm-hmm, it carries through from
(36:06):
generations, you know?
Yeah.
and just the amount of trauma inthose stories alone, let alone
all of them that I don't knowthat go on and on and on.
And so I just know that like,even though it's.
Not perfect and not easy.
Like I I'm, I'm doing it like,like the culture of the family
that I live in now and my ownchildren, The relationship that
(36:28):
I have with them when theybecome adults will be because
they want to, not because I'mtelling them that
Val (36:33):
they
Kat (36:34):
have to, they owe something to me because I carried them
around in my body and I raisedthem for how many years, you
know what I
Val (36:39):
mean?
Sure.
Yeah.
Kat (36:40):
they get to be free in the world because I did all this
fucking work to try to get freemyself, you know?
Val (36:46):
Yeah.
Kat (36:47):
It's not a small thing, but it, it is, the thing that I'm
most proud of, of my whole life,you know,
Val (36:53):
Mm.
Kat (36:53):
like to, to choose, to engage and to heal and to get
free and to get free and to getfree is fucking beautiful and
hard, but worth it, you know?
And then you're like a softhuman in the world so much so
that you go to a Broadwaymusical and you're like welling
up with tears.
You know what I mean?
You're like moved by beauty andyou're moved by a sunset you're
(37:16):
like deeply moved and impacted,you know what I mean?
Val (37:20):
And that, I think opens me up to, the suffering, you know,
and actually when my dad died, Iremember being at my mom's house
back from San Francisco, and Ijust was crying.
And I was like, just afraid thatyou're gonna ask me, or you're
gonna expect me to come back andlive with you because my dad had
died.
And she said, I would never askthat of you.
You need to go live your life.
And I don't.
(37:41):
I think, I sense things thatmaybe people aren't saying, but
my mom hasn't, really grasp atthings.
But I think when you care,right, and you feel people
suffering, you don't want themto suffer.
Right.
And, and so I think I'm justgetting to the place where I'm
okay with what I can do.
What I can do.
Because it feels like when I goback there, the undertone.
(38:03):
And again, I should probably ownmy own stuff.
Maybe it's maybe I'm, I'm makingit up.
I don't know if I am, but I'mmoving to that possibility.
But, but there's the undertonethat, and if you were just here,
things would be better.
Yeah.
Kat (38:17):
Well, you might be picking up on someone's actual belief,
even if they won't say that outloud.
Right.
Or a belief that you have.
And like right.
When I bump into stuff likethat, I offer that belief,
compassion.
I say it out loud and then yousee if that belief will, will
move because it's creatingsuffering.
Right.
Mm-hmm And so, yeah, like likethe reason why I've been able to
(38:38):
like move away from all thattrauma and all that, that hard
stuff is like, at this point inmy life, I have a very deep
compassion practice, like avery, very deep self-compassion
practice where like, it took alot to get here, but like,
whenever we have any of thosekind of feelings, especially,
they can be so tender whenthey're related to family origin
stuff.
Right.
These are the human beings thatlike we're around us when we
(39:02):
were the most vulnerable.
And this was how we werelearning about what love is.
Right.
And then if people didn't havethe skills to be excellent at
it.
Yeah.
Or even just good enough yeah.
Yeah.
If they caused harm because theydidn't heal from the harm that
was done to them, you know,mm-hmm, like, that's all real
tender.
So.
We need to be able to live andcultivate compassion for
(39:22):
ourselves.
And then, and then it can beextended to other people.
What's interesting is that myself-compassion practice has
increased my what's thetolerance again?
I don't know why.
I never remember the phrase testtolerance.
It's increased my distresstolerance, not just for me, but
like to trust someone else ontheir journey.
Mm-hmm like, that's their story.
And if I have capacity toalleviate suffering within my
(39:45):
like circle of people, I'm Ilove to do that.
That makes me so happy.
I'm gonna bring you food, youget sick.
I'm gonna bring you some soup.
I make really good soup butbeyond that, I'm just going to
trust someone in their story,you know, which I feel like I
still have a hard time lettingit come outta my mouth, but
(40:05):
it's, that I zoom out that's myMo I zoom out enough to be like,
I feel like the universe.
Is is for us somehow,
Val (40:13):
right?
Mm.
Kat (40:13):
is a benevolent, I don't know, entity.
And so I am not the savior ofthe world.
Right.
And again, that's deconstructingfrom all of that stuff in
Christianity, but also in likewhat we, as, as fem people in
the world have been taught to doto alleviate and nurture and to
heal all the suffering.
Right.
(40:34):
And so I, I sort of removemyself from that and my
compassion practice means I'msofter in the world to myself
and to others.
And it somehow means I havebetter boundaries than I've ever
Val (40:45):
had.
Mm.
Kat (40:46):
And then I get to be compassionate with myself and
others about how the boundariesdo create grief.
Right.
Val (40:53):
Yeah.
Well, and I, I think, likeyou're saying about the martyr
or savior, like I wasparticipating in that, right.
I was raised that way or you.
As a fem person to be pleasingand to take care of everyone
and, and all of that.
So I probably leaned into thatrole more in the past.
But just being very okay withthat martyrdom doesn't feel good
Kat (41:13):
it does not feel good.
Val (41:14):
Then creating our own, chosen families, right.
I know you talk a lot about inthe queer community that's a lot
of times necessary becausethere's so much rejection.
Right.
And people who, come to citiesto live, like you have to find
family.
And a lot of those needs arebeing met in, in the church
actually.
And I just found too, like Itold my mom do not listen to
this podcast.
(41:35):
cause she's a good mom.
And she like, wants to like, youknow, listen to all the things I
do and whatever.
And I was like, do not listen.
She's like why?
I'm like, cuz there's a lot ofswearing.
Well, why is there swearing?
Because that's how I talk momoh, and we're talking about
stuff that I don't, you, youwill not agree
Kat (41:52):
Yeah.
Val (41:53):
And I don't know that it's right.
Yeah.
Like, so I think sometimes evenjust like the people that you
are born from, like if, ifthey're not approving of what
you do, then there isn't thatinterest or, right.
so I think the more dissonancethere is in a family where,
like, oh, well, I don't agreewith what you're doing, so I'll
never ask you about it.
And so then it's like all theseparts of you that you don't
(42:15):
share with them.
Right.
And then finding like that needto find community and people
that do resonate with that.
And I do believe like, you know,that, that we do need a
community and people around us.
I just think it, can't always beour family.
Kat (42:31):
You know what else I'm thinking about right now?
First of all, I really agreewith that sentence.
And then additionally, I thinkthat okay.
As we grow and we evolve, wesometimes outgrow people.
Right.
Mm-hmm And so even having someflexibility around our chosen
family, right.
The, the humans that we're closewith, we might be close with
(42:53):
them for two years, 10 years, 20years.
Yeah.
And then, You might grow apartand that's not wrong.
Yeah.
And so, again, our culture, likewe glorify relationships that,
you know, last forever, youknow, oh, I met this friend in
kindergarten and we've beenfriends, our whole lives.
That's a beautiful story.
Sure.
Have you been close and intimatethe whole time?
That's amazing how beautiful youget to have that companion for
(43:16):
your whole journey.
Lucky, lucky.
right.
Yeah.
But then that hasn't been mystory.
I mean, I picked up and I movedaway and I moved again and I
moved again and I would havelike groups of people that were
resonant we're close with andthen like more shifts and where
evolution happens.
Mm-hmm and then I'm noticingthat like, people keep showing
(43:36):
up.
Right.
And if I take the time to invitehumans that I actually feel
resonance with versus like, Ineed to make sure I never let go
of this particular relationshipbecause it was meaningful to me
once mm-hmm it doesn't actuallyserve them or me.
I can hold everyone
Val (43:54):
it loosely.
Oh.
And there are seasons of life.
Like I've shared that in thepodcast where friends of ours
who had young kids, like, I, Idid get hurt and I could be hurt
or just letting it just flow inand out and leaving the door
open for when a season changesthat there can be this closeness
again, or maybe not, and justnormalizing relationships kind
of coming that flux being okay.
Kat (44:16):
Yeah.
Normalize that shit.
as you were just saying that Iwas sort of thinking about like,
when you and I first met, youknow, we were in Bible college
and we were like 16, 17 yearsold.
Right.
Mm-hmm And then we, we've neverbeen as close as we are right
now.
Mm-hmm and I think that's kindof fun and funny.
Like we just, like, we met solong ago and we've just sort of
(44:37):
always kind of checked in, like,I've always admired you and
thought that you were likebrilliant and delightful and
gorgeous and wonderful.
Right.
You were always someone that Iwas just enjoyed.
Yeah.
And then, you know, it's justbeen, you know, these decades.
Right.
And I think, I think this fallit's 28 years that we met wow.
28 years ago.
(44:59):
and so like, how fucking cool isthat, that like it's at this
window, right?
We're in our mid forties.
And like, this is where thisbeautiful blooming gets to
happen.
I think that's so cool.
And the, the fact that we bothhad to like evolve and shift and
change a whole lot.
Val (45:16):
Right?
Yes.
Kat (45:17):
I think that's amazing.
Val (45:18):
I think it's
Kat (45:19):
amazing.
Val (45:19):
too.
Kat (45:21):
Hey, you feel like family, to me, I'm so grateful.
Mm
Val (45:24):
Mm I'm so grateful too.
Thanks, KA.
Kat (45:26):
Yay.
yay.
Val (45:28):
family.
Ah, yeah.
Kat (45:32):
Well, I thank you everyone for, you know, this felt a
little like messy, but familiesare messy,
Val (45:38):
right?
Families are
Kat (45:39):
and that's okay.
Human relationships are messy.
And I think that's the thingabout like, family is intimate
in a way that's different than alot of our other relationships.
Right.
And so it is messier cuz you're,you're in tighter, you're in
close, you're cohabitating,right.
For parts of our lives.
So
Val (45:54):
yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I hope we just, you know,continuing the conversation of,
Kat (45:59):
of healing and boundaries and holding loosely and yeah,
Val (46:04):
yeah, People living more authentic lives and, and making
choices out of their own.
Will when we're in that victimmode of like, oh, I have to do
it and I have no choices andwell, they're expecting it of
me.
That can feel good but then whenwe realize that we actually have
agency, yes.
Then there's freedom.
There's responsibility.
Cuz now we have to take actionor we can check action.
(46:25):
Right.
And something's just not beingdone to us.
There's so much more freedomwith that responsibility.
Right.
And maybe it's just that like.
You don't wanna call yourgrandma every week.
Kat (46:38):
yeah.
Val (46:38):
And maybe there are some relationships that are really,
causing some pain that have tobe, re reexamined.
Kat (46:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think it's, it takes a lotof bravery and I think that we
can be brave.
We can be brave to centerourselves in our life and take
responsibility for our own wellwellness and
Val (46:57):
well mm-hmm,
Kat (46:58):
if you move out of those expectations and you get to be
who you are, you gotta fuckinglook yourself in the mirror.
I mean, think about that's hardwork.
Val (47:05):
Yeah.
You know, your family wants youto be at Thanksgiving all day
and the next day and the nextday, and you are like this sucks
and whatever it may be.
I, I don't want to be here.
This is painful.
And a lot of people in the lastcouple years have realized, oh,
I'm out of alignment with myfamily.
This is really painful.
Kat (47:24):
Right.
Val (47:24):
What about if you were like, you know what, we're gonna
stop by for dessert.
Yeah.
And say, you know what?
I care about my family.
I want to be in connection.
I wanna say hi, I wanna hugeverybody, whatever it is.
Right.
And we're just gonna come fordessert.
Right.
And do that out of like, well,my value is I wanna keep
relationship with these people.
Right?
these people happen to berelated to and how different
(47:46):
that might be to even just thinkoutside of the box and, and
start to do things that feelbetter.
Like how much better would thatfeel to just be intentional
Kat (47:54):
yes, I know.
Oh my gosh.
I
Val (47:57):
love sounds good.
I love
Kat (47:58):
job.
I love you, Val.
I
Val (48:02):
you cat until next time.
Kat (48:04):
Bye everybody.
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