September 12, 2022 • 46 mins
Many of us have found that making friends as an adult is much more difficult than it was as kids or teenagers. This week, Kat and Val tell stories and share insights about how to make new friends and deepen connections with folks we’d like to know better. Join Us!
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast
Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club
Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art
Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
How to Change Your Mind (Netflix Docuseries) Micheal Pollan
The Gottman Institute: Dreams Within Conflict
Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria
Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole by Susan Cain
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
We're back.
Hello?
Hello.
Hello.
Val (00:35):
Did you miss us?
Come on.
Tell the truth.
Kat (00:39):
We're talking about friendship, Val.
I'm so glad.
You're my friend.
Val (00:42):
Hmm.
I'm glad.
You're my friend too.
Cat.
Kat (00:44):
Yeah.
We've been friends for 28 years.
Yikes.
Do you remember the first timeyou met me?
Val (00:49):
No.
Kat (00:52):
Can I
Val (00:53):
myself and have a very good memory, but at the older I get
the more I just like, Nope, Idon't remember.
Kat (00:58):
that.
Oh my gosh.
I, I don't know for sure if Iremember exactly when I first
met you, but I can remember.
Hearing you laugh from like adistance away.
And I feel like it was probablyaround like Val and I were both
on like drama teams in collegeand our Bible college that we
went to.
And so you were like older andcool.
(01:19):
I mean, were you just asophomore?
And I was a freshman.
guess you seem so like matureand interesting and you like,
you're very popular.
Yes.
And attractive.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And you had like this greatlaugh.
Val (01:31):
Aw.
Kat (01:31):
Yeah.
That's what I remember when Ithink of you.
Val (01:33):
Oh, I that's sweet.
What's really funny that yousaid that was, I get that a lot
where even people I had justmet, she's like, were you at the
community food market on thisday?
Yeah.
I think I heard you laugh
Kat (01:45):
grocery
Val (01:47):
Oh my gosh, this person doesn't even know me.
Who's been with me like threetimes and she can spot my laugh
across the grocery store.
Kat (01:55):
I love that.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Val (01:57):
I mean, there's worse things to be known, you know,
Kat (02:00):
Sure.
Val (02:00):
for.
So I'll take it.
Yeah,
Kat (02:03):
Gregarious person.
Totally.
Val (02:05):
Maybe that just helps me you know, we talk about like
things getting trapped in thebody and all that.
So maybe it's one of my waysjust like, let stuff go
Kat (02:13):
feel.
Yeah.
Having a good loud laugh.
Also, you talk about being likea, an east coaster too, and
aren't just east coasters, justlouder as a loud, right?
Val (02:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
East coast energy.
Yeah.
Louder.
Kat (02:24):
louder.
so you can have a
Val (02:25):
take up more space, you know, we have very intense
feelings.
We like to talk to strangers.
Kat (02:32):
Oh, that's so good.
I love that so much.
so friends.
Yeah.
Today we decided to talk aboutlike how to make friends, having
a friend for the end of theworld.
I feel like there's some showthere's a movie.
It was called how to really,yeah.
How to like finding a friend forthe end of the world or
something with bill Murray.
Val (02:50):
I mean, I feel like that's really important.
Also we watch one of the zombieshows the walking dead which I
probably wouldn't watch if Iwere not married to the person
I'm married to.
If I were alone with my choices,I
Kat (03:03):
probably
Val (03:03):
probably would not choose that.
It's
Kat (03:05):
Is it still going on?
Oh,
Val (03:07):
it's the last fucking season.
Get out with it.
We're only watching it cuz it'sthe end.
It's like 10 seasons, but yeah,it's
Kat (03:12):
a long time for the zombie apocalypse.
Val (03:15):
it's not great.
it's not great.
Oh gosh.
I mean, it really makes youthink about some existential
questions about like thecivility that we like, the, or
maybe even the pretend that theillusion of civility we have in
this world, but just like thisstraight up anarchy, you know,
and just.
How do you, do you trust anyonelast, the last episode we were
(03:36):
talking about moats and likeputting up your walls.
I mean, literally they're likewe gotta maybe kill these people
cuz they're probably gonna wannakill us.
can you imagine, can youimagine?
Kat (03:46):
No, thank you.
Val (03:47):
Anyway, I thought it was funny that you were like, yeah,
let's talk about making friendsfor the end of the world.
I'm like, what do you mean cat
Kat (03:53):
I mean like the fall of capitalism, we're late stage
capitalism and there's like, youknow, climate crisis anyway,
like as an adult, it's harder tomake friends.
We all know that.
And like also we live in like atumultuous times.
Yeah.
And so
Val (04:09):
it's not great.
Kat (04:10):
Yeah.
Like having more friends isimportant.
Let's have more friends.
Val (04:13):
I actually tell them like younger clients, like, look it
gets harder and harder to makefriends.
So.
I wanna send you this letterfrom the other end of the
Kat (04:22):
yeah.
Val (04:23):
from the future.
Like it is harder.
Kat (04:26):
I think what's harder because our culture has fucked
us all over.
Right.
You're required in order to stayalive in this world to work X
amount of time within thecapitalist structure, most
people do not have the emotionalenergy, like it's all given to
the workplace.
Right.
And then you spend your, eveningor your weekend, if you're a
(04:46):
parent, then that's a wholeother thing,
Val (04:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (04:49):
then like you're recovering from like all of the output,
right.
In order to just to survive.
Right.
I'm trying not to be a donor,but it's a donor so I'm like,
Val (04:59):
Well, and even before the pandemic, I feel like, and
again, I don't know where I getthis feeling from, or if anybody
else feels the same way, but itjust felt like the pace everyone
was on the pace society was on.
Like even my friends that havekids, it was like, oh, we have
three birthday parties thisweekend, and then we have to go
do this and then we have karateand then we have that.
(05:19):
And then we're, I mean, it just,it was, it.
It's unsustainable, right.
Or the amount of travel or justthe amount of movement.
It just, it didn't seemsustainable.
Right?
Kat (05:29):
Yeah.
And then, so the pandemic slowedmost of us down.
Right.
Significantly.
So, yeah.
And again, it's in these spacesthough that like cultivating
community or actual, realmeaningful friendships is so
important.
You know, obviously most of usfrom the pandemic are also like,
oh my God, we're prettyisolated, you know?
Right, Yeah.
Val (05:48):
I, I have heard from several people probably in the
general chatter
Kat (05:52):
yeah.
Val (05:53):
that it did maybe make us really take evaluations, who are
the relationships that we reallywanna be a part of what's
important and, and really spendour energy.
Yeah.
In those.
Kat (06:04):
Yeah.
Do you have any, like, reallyweird, like how you made a new
friend stories, do you ever meetin one of really weird ways?
Val (06:11):
I'm sure I do have some, but I can't think of it right
now, but do you have any,
Kat (06:15):
oh my God.
I have this great story.
How I met this like fantasticmusician who later became my
friend.
So yeah, I had discovered thislo musician named Willam mammo.
She's so cool.
You can check her out.
She's on Instagram and she's aqueer musician singer
songwriter, there's somethingabout her that is just like,
she's just shiny.
(06:35):
And you're like, oh my God, Iwanna be in your press.
It's very interesting person.
And so I had newly come out andI was like, you know, wanting to
be in queer spaces.
I can't get anyone to go withme.
And I'm like, ah, I'm just gonnago.
I'm gonna go by myself.
And so I remember I like kind ofducked into the bathroom and I'm
just like on my phone, and asI'm just texting this person, I
(06:58):
hear will mammo humming, like inthe bathroom that I'm in.
And so I'm like, okay.
Oh my God.
And I go to this sink and she'slooking at me and I'm looking at
her.
And I, I think I'm probably likea little starstruck, you know,
mm-hmm But she's, she looks atme and we say, hello, and then
she.
Do I do.
I know you.
And I was like I know you fromthe internet and she was like,
(07:22):
do you like make art?
And I was like, what the fuck ishappening?
My head started exploding, cuz Iwas like, I don't understand
what's happening right now.
And so then I was like, yes.
And she goes, do you make bodypositive art?
And I.
Val (07:36):
was like,
Kat (07:37):
Yes, but I was like having kinda an out body experience.
And then she was like, I wasjust on your page today.
And I was like, I was just onyour page today.
It was just the strangest thing.
She started trying to like kindof bow down to me, like in this
bathroom, because she was solike in impacted by what I was
(07:57):
putting out in the world.
And I was just enthralled withher and what she's putting out
in the world.
And so, like, I remember it justlike, it really fucked with my
head.
For sure was like, well, aAmanda is amazing, you know what
I mean?
And like, gorgeous, like soattractive and like talented,
all these wonderful things, youknow?
So it was not hard to be alittle like sweetie, and she
(08:20):
knows my name.
Aw.
So
Val (08:23):
that's awesome.
Kat (08:24):
I know.
And then that turned into like,you know, we chatted a little
bit at the intermission and.
Val (08:29):
then
Kat (08:30):
We like took a picture together and then like, she
hosts an open mic night and thenlike, I went to that and then
we, she just welcomed me intocommunity.
And so like, I've been to a fewmore of her shows and yeah, like
she's like legit friend of mine,like during the pandemic I gave
her a haircut, so Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, so anyway, if you'reinterested in like a cool
musician and she's like in thebay area, but she's actually
(08:52):
moving cross country.
So I got to give her a hug justlast week and say goodbye to my
like darling friend who, youknow Aww.
Yeah, but I, I love her andlike, it feels really good.
Val (09:02):
She knows me.
Kat (09:02):
she does know me.
Val (09:04):
my art.
Kat (09:07):
So when we think about like cultivating friendships in our
life, you know, like that, thatstory in particular, like I, you
know, it could have just beenlike this fun, like meeting that
we had once, but I rememberlike, Reading on her page, like,
oh, she does these open micthings.
And I have a kid who'sinterested in music and I was
like, oh, I can put myself in,in her presence again, you know?
(09:27):
And so yeah, like making theextra effort to like, be in
spaces where people we'd like tobuild community with are going
to be is, you know, like kind ofa first step to like, how do you
make more friends?
Mm.
So, And I'd say like, my friendgroup has really shifted a lot
since most of my friends when Iwas married I don't spend as
(09:50):
much time with, and, you know,and now I have like a really
wonderful core group of likequeer people in my life, you
know, mm-hmm and and so thoseare the, the main people I, I
see regularly, you know, you'relike the exception I have, like
one or two straight friendsleft.
Yeah.
Val's straight everybody.
you found the.
(10:12):
I said it like out of the sideof my mouth.
So like that's what you'resaying.
That's how you identify.
I have to honor that you saidthat.
Val (10:17):
really, that how funny, you know, If you've been following
around the podcast, I moved hereright after Bible college with,
with my best friend at the time.
And I've been in the bay area,man.
It's been like, 25
Kat (10:31):
years, I know, I know.
I
Val (10:33):
I mean, I love it here.
But, and then I, I still amfriends with some of the, they
were kids.
They were like in the youthgroup or they were just
graduating.
The first church I worked athere and they're still in the
bay or are we keep in contactand, and so it's just.
Lovely to feel because I,because I did, like, I left home
at 17.
Right.
And not feeling like, well, wedon't have any family here.
(10:56):
Right.
And then my husband rap is froma different country, so he
doesn't have family here.
So it kind of feels great.
Like.
To have, they're probably thepeople I've known probably
second longest to you.
Right.
And then another church that Iwent to and that I worked at,
and that spent like most of mytwenties at I made such amazing
lifelong friends and that.
Was kind of really what kept methere at that church.
(11:18):
And like, was the thing thateveryone said was like, oh,
we're finding community.
Cuz a lot of people come to theSan Francisco bay area for work
school.
Right.
they're here for a good time.
Not a long time.
they're here for the vibe.
They're not here for a longtime, but like, yeah.
And we just, we needed communityand we were a welcoming place
and, and, and you know, I stillconsider a lot of them to be
(11:40):
they're in the best frontier.
You know, my closest friendswere in that group.
But unfortunately with a lot ofpeople who live in a
metropolitan area or the bayarea is that people move.
Right.
Kat (11:49):
Right, right.
Right.
Val (11:50):
And so not many of them still live here.
Yeah.
But what has happened is like, Idon't know if I spoke it into
existence or just made ithappen, but it was like, all
right, all of my super closefriends and I mean, years
cultivating these friendships.
Right.
I'm like, I guess I just.
Go visit them.
So so we got our bubble familyin Miami.
(12:11):
We got, you know, the besties inPortland.
We got San Diego.
We I'm planning a trip to Texas.
see a couple of them just had areunion in, in New York city.
And just, I think grateful thatI've been able to do that.
And obviously technology andFaceTimes and phone
Kat (12:25):
all the things.
Val (12:26):
Canada, I just had a friend visit from Canada, you know, but
like just realizing.
Okay.
These friendships are soimportant.
And we were in that like realthose developmental times where
like you're young, you'refiguring yourself out, you're
getting into your career.
We're you're meeting partners.
Those things are just so deepand important and just like,
(12:47):
okay, well I'm not giving upjust cuz they're moving.
Right.
And just, okay, those arefriends.
And, but then unfortunatelythey're not around in physical
body as much.
Right.
And so then I think then, thenthat comes to community, right?
I've had a lot of new people inmy life this year because of
pick a ball, pick ball, shoutout to all the, pick a ball
people.
And it's like, it is thatcommunity.
I joke that like, since we don'thave children or a dog, a dog.
(13:14):
We had friends come, they hadtheir, their toddler.
Yeah.
And I think they had their dogwith them.
Kat (13:19):
Okay.
Val (13:19):
Okay.
And, oh gosh, we went to thefarmer's market.
I mean, it's seriously, someoneasked for their number.
Oh my gosh.
Our kid is the same age.
Like where are you going topreschool?
She's like, I don't live here.
And I was like, oh my gosh, wehaven't met anybody in this,
this
Kat (13:31):
Right, right, Right.
Val (13:33):
So I joke, like if you don't have a kid or a dog, a dog
it's a little bit harder.
Right.
And so I just have this greatrich, like multi-generational
pickle ball community now.
Right.
And maybe one or two are peoplethat like, I would like really
talk about how, how I'm doing,but just to have, I think it was
a missing piece that we had.
Also because we seem to betraveling a lot.
Kat (13:54):
It's
Val (13:55):
like to get those, but I feel like I need those.
Like, I do love to travel.
I'm so curious about the worldand all the different people in
it.
I wanna see all the places andexperience all the things, but I
want roots too.
Yeah.
I've had to fight a little bitfor that, but I want roots and I
feel like I just feel so goodabout that.
Finding that thing that hasconnected me to the community I
(14:17):
live in.
Also, thank you.
We just got a silver medal thisweekend.
Kat (14:21):
yes.
Val (14:22):
pick up all update deceptive.
Kat (14:24):
Val is
Val (14:24):
the role that in.
Kat (14:26):
Yeah.
Silver.
Congratulations.
You
Val (14:28):
the gold.
Thank you very much to like 20year olds.
oh my gosh.
My partner's 53.
Yes.
One of my 46.
So one of the girls was half myage and one was 30 years older.
And so we held our own, but youknow, my body does not bend like
theirs does there's some winnersthat they shouldn't have been
able to get.
their body still is like Gumby.
Like you can, it's disposable.
(14:50):
It's disposable.
Comes back.
It doesn't break.
Kat (14:54):
right.
Val (14:55):
But yeah, I, feel like there's like layers of people in
our lives
Kat (14:59):
that.
Val (15:00):
That I even talk like again in my program or set yourself
for love when like kind ofreclaiming that time that we
have in life when we aren'tpartnered.
And I know we're gonna talk moreabout this when we talk about
it, that like our cultureovervalues romantic.
Connections and the romanticpeople in our lives.
And I love to hear on socialmedia, tell your friends, you
(15:22):
love them so much and make itawkward.
And I do that.
Kat (15:25):
Yeah, I do too.
All my friends.
I'm like, I love you.
I Yeah.
Hey, will we talk about like thetiers of relationship?
So like, you know, we have likethe best frontier
Val (15:34):
Well, yeah, we we've talked about the best frontier, right.
That I don't like to crown onewinner.
Kat (15:41):
it's
Val (15:41):
a race.
It's not a game, everybody.
I, I always say, I feel like youneed, you need a, a few
different people in your lifethat, that are like, If you are
partnered up, you need somebodythat's like you in many ways and
that you can commiserate with.
Right.
And then maybe somebody we've,we've talked about Rai's fake
(16:02):
twin, the peacock twins that shereally helps me kind of see
things from his perspective.
And I, I respect her opinionmore than I did.
Right.
Like those are good.
And just.
So we have the best frontier.
And then I think there arepeople in our lives that maybe
are they're friends.
And they're great.
they're not the ones that whenwe think about, Ooh, I have a
(16:22):
few minutes, like, who would Iwanna be with?
But they're friends, they'regreat.
They're in our lives.
And then I think there's thatacquaintance, that community,
right?
Like people that care about youand know you.
I might have said this on thepodcast before, but like the
first time someone noticed like,because I have a lot of like
this chronic lower back pain andsomeone had said something about
it and, and I just saw theconcern and one of the guys'
(16:44):
faces like the older guys that.
Probably my parents at pickleball.
Yeah.
Probably my parents' age.
And he's like a big jokester,but like I saw in his eye that
at that moment he would've doneanything that I needed and like
was so genuinely concerned aboutmy welfare.
I wish that for everyone, right.
That like you have multiplelevels of people that know you.
(17:07):
care about you.
Right.
And just like miss you whenyou're gone.
Totally.
Yeah.
Right.
I've never lived in a placewhere we have neighbors that we
know.
Yeah.
And I know you have some greatneighbors, you know, neighbors
that know you and care aboutyou.
cause I think all of our life,it was about the church, right.
That was really the place wherepeople were supposed to know
Kat (17:26):
And I think it's really valuable to like, actually think
about these different sort ofagain, tier is what the word
we're using, you know, like alayer, your circles of intimacy.
Right?
Mm-hmm but like, I think thatthere's a lot of value for every
tier, you know?
I have mostly lived in reallylarge cities, but when you know,
we went to college in a smalltown.
Our, our town was small, butthen after college I lived in a
(17:47):
city that was about 50,000 andit had a really small town feel.
It was Boze in Montana and itwas a lot of years ago.
I think it's probably grownsince then, but I remember just,
I would bump into people that Ihappen to know just like at a
store, yeah.
And like, I remember being.
Oh, my God, that felt so nice tonot be like an anonymous human,
(18:10):
trying to get what you're tryingto get.
And I, I was really struck bythat.
And then, I mostly live in, in,in larger city since then.
So I haven't really experiencedthat with the same regularity,
but like to bump into like, justan acquaintance.
Right.
But a human being who knows yourname, it makes me think of the
cheers song, you know?
Oh,
Val (18:29):
I know actually mine and refi's first date,
Kat (18:32):
Uhhuh, he
Val (18:33):
he was talking about like, well, where do you wanna live?
Like, he went hard.
First date went hard.
Mm-hmm and, and I was like, Ireally love San Francisco.
I really love it.
And he.
He didn't have the greatest,first impressions.
Right?
Sure.
And again, he grew up in anincredibly large city in Rio de
Janeiro.
Right.
And so he's like, I wanna livein a place where everybody knows
my name.
(18:53):
He goes a small town in a lake,like in the movie, the
Kat (18:56):
notebook oh my gosh.
She's moving you hard.
Val (19:01):
It's so on brand for, for who he is now.
Now I know him to be, he's like,yeah, like in the notebook, you
know, like I sit down, I, I pullout my newspaper, everything
that he wants in life.
He's like it was Americanmovies,
Kat (19:12):
Oh Yeah.
Val (19:13):
I, I pull out my newspaper and they say, Hey, Hey, Mr.
The usual right.
Uhhuh And so I was.
Okay.
I, I don't wanna leave SanFrancisco.
And then, so of course I put onthe charm, like, okay, we'll get
like a, like a vacation home ina place, like, like a notebook.
I'm like, okay, fine.
That was good enough for me inthe moment.
But we live in a, a little beachcommunity, a little island in
(19:34):
the east bay, if you will.
And it does have that feel.
Yeah.
And I had to kind of convincehim to move here cuz he needs,
he needs, oh, we're gonna talkabout personalities next time.
He needs to sense it.
He needs to be in it, but I'mlike, no, no you're gonna love
this place.
And so we have, we have a cafewhere, you know, the waiters
know him and they're like theusual crab cakes, Beed addict,
you know know how he likes hiscoffee and he is, he's so happy
(19:57):
for it.
Right?
Kat (19:58):
Well, that's a great point, Val, like for cultivating, like
if we're trying to make newfriends and community like
frequenting, the same place overand over again is actually a
pretty good like method, youknow,
Val (20:09):
yeah,
Kat (20:10):
And, you know, listeners, when you think about like, how
do you make friends startingwith your acquaintance level
people and seeing like, Hey, isthere someone in that rung of
people I might like to get toknow them more, you know?
Val (20:21):
Well, we did talk about vulnerability last
Kat (20:23):
Yeah, we really did.
Val (20:25):
we were like, you modeled it for us.
Kat (20:30):
I'm a model, everybody.
I'm a model.
Yes.
Val (20:32):
a model where, you know, we talked about lowering that
Drawbridge.
Yeah.
Right.
And like making yourselfvulnerable to allow someone in.
Right.
And so I think it is likeputting yourself out there.
So, so yeah, to make newfriends, I think just kind of be
around you gotta kind of.
Be around yeah.
And be open.
(20:53):
Right.
That's why I think dogs are petsare good.
Right.
You go to the dog park or peoplestrike up a conversation because
of the dogs or right.
It's these like shared thingsthat,
Kat (21:04):
Well, one thing that I think is great about the
internet is that it's prettyeasy to find groups of people
based on different identitiesyou fall within.
Right?
So I'm pretty vocal about beingpart of the fat community mm-hmm
And so like, I, my art is likefat liberation art.
So there's a, collection ofhumans that live in fat bodies
and who are also sort of, you.
Saying, no thank you dietculture, we're gonna be
(21:26):
liberated.
And so like you know, if that'sone of your identities, there
are like groups you could liketap in, you know?
Yeah.
You know, fat community in yourarea or, you know, and then you
and I both have a chronicillness.
And so like those, some of thosesupport groups exist.
And so a lot of.
Online spaces also have localin-person meetups.
You know, I'm also a queerperson.
So same thing.
(21:46):
I have some online groups thathave in-person meetups.
And what you're saying is reallytrue, Val.
Like if, if we wanna pushagainst the, the loneliness that
is, you know, pretty rampant inour culture, we have to push
ourselves out of our comfortzone.
And there's just, there's no wayaround that piece.
Right.
We have to put ourselves whereother humans are.
(22:07):
Or make the effort to like, youknow connect and then, you know,
and then once you have likethese tears of people, there's
like other great things that youcan do to sort of deepen those
connections, you know?
Val (22:19):
know.
Yeah.
And as listening to you talking,like I have to make, I haven't
been the best at that.
And I think, because like, from,I just wonder, like from such a
young age, it was like,everything is around church.
And even some of the messages oflike your close friends should
be Christians because of theinfluence they have and all that
stuff.
Right.
But I think I'm just used tothat and I do have some
(22:39):
identities I've even thoughtlike, and I've shared this on
some of the other episodes thatit was really a rough time for
me socially when all my friendshad young, young kids and not,
not all my friends had kids atthe same age, but, but it was
pretty much in a general likefive year.
And then of course going throughmy own infertility at the same
time, and then kind ofstruggling with my husband's
(22:59):
travel and his business and allof that at the same time was
just incredibly.
It, it made for a very lonelytime and I really wish, I always
suggest that to clients like,Hey, have you thought about it?
And sometimes it feels toopainful to be in a support group
or maybe interest group oridentity group actually feels a
little bit less.
Cuz sometimes I think peoplehave said like, I don't wanna go
into a, a small group about myproblem, cuz it's just, it just
(23:22):
feels like so much of maybepeople feel overwhelmed sure.
By this shared experiencesometimes.
And sometimes it feels veryaffirming yeah.
And, and cathartic.
But I think that I wish Iwould've reached out cuz I felt
very isolated.
I didn't know anyone else thatwas going through infertility
and it's such a uniqueexperience.
I wish I would've found thepeople that said yeah, me.
(23:43):
which is one of my favoritequotes about friendship.
Like friends are made when, whenyou turn to someone and say, oh,
you too,
Kat (23:49):
right.
Ugh.
Yeah.
Val (23:50):
Even in therapy.
I've read some things about how.
People are wanting therapistswith lived experience because
it's in the nuance that you feelseen and you feel known.
In that shared experience, it'slike, you really understand what
I'm going through and how heavythis is.
I should have reached out andfound people that were more in
my stage of life.
Right.
Because that is, that does causestress and isolation.
(24:14):
When you go through stages oflife that are different than
your peers, you have childrenearlier, you have children
later, you go back, you go toschool, right?
Imagine when someone goes backto school older
Kat (24:25):
yeah.
And again, that's the thing,like the internet is actually a
great place to sort of findthose and then you can move from
the internet to like, you know,some real life interactions and
stuff like that.
Val (24:35):
There was a time where we did we were like sort of living
in a new area and I was.
I do love this, that Bumble has,they have a professional and
then romance and then the friendone too.
Right.
And so it was like, oh, you
Kat (24:48):
there's an app for that.
Yeah.
Val (24:49):
There's a net for that.
Finding friendships.
Kat (24:52):
yeah.
Val (24:52):
Is is also important and let's help people find that.
So, so I was on there for alittle while.
Like a lot of people were justlike, oh, I'm new to the area.
Or I went through a lifetransition, whether my kids left
or I went through a divorce orall these things and looking for
friends and I think, yeah, geton there and, and, and find some
people.
I think that we have more toolsthan ever yeah.
(25:13):
To be connected.
Yeah.
Kat (25:14):
And,, so once you've made contact with, a couple humans
that you're like, oh, I'd liketo know you better.
We have three questions that canhelp deepen your relationships.
I feel like we've been a littleguilty Val on the last.
Several episodes where we, like,we haven't actually like set our
questions out loud.
Yeah.
And so like, yeah.
The title of the podcast,everybody's three questions with
(25:34):
cat and Val.
Yeah.
And so the questions are, what'sbringing you pleasure.
Yep.
And then what are you learning?
Yes.
And what's moving around foryou?
Yes.
And so what's fun about thesequestions, depending on the
level of relationship you havewith whomever, you're discussing
this with, you know, again, wejust talked about vulnerability.
Last episode, you get to decidehow deep you go in any of these
(25:55):
mm-hmm but they, they are adeepening thing, you know, like
how to get to know someone.
right, is to be interested inthem.
And, and our, our conversationscan go so much.
They can become so much morericher if we move away from like
traditional small talk, youknow, what do you do for a
living?
Where did you grow up?
You know?
Yeah.
Val (26:10):
Well, and, you know, use your judgment, dear friends.
If your opening line is what'sbringing you pleasure you know,
you might get a
Kat (26:16):
it works for me.
That works for me.
Val (26:21):
there you go.
There you go.
Friends.
There you go.
But I love that somebody saidlike, instead of asking, what do
you do?
For a living ask, what do you dofor fun?
Or what do you love to do?
Oh yeah.
I love that.
I love actually I pickle balltoo.
That nobody's, asking like, oh,what do you do?
Right.
That's not what people areleading with.
It's like, who cares?
But how many spaces are you in?
(26:43):
Or at least I was in that,wasn't the first question.
And so I love sneakily findingout my partner's a CEO of a
company
Kat (26:51):
wow.
Val (26:51):
And then it's hilarious when people find out that I'm a
therapist, cuz no one's asking.
Kat (26:56):
I love that though, because again, I think capitalism has
sort of taught us to rank peoplebased on perfection mm-hmm and
if you're in a new space whereyou're like, no, we are here to
play.
Yeah.
We're here to play together.
And so like you bring yourpresence.
It's it's less about socialcurrency stuff.
Val (27:14):
Mm-hmm mm-hmm social
Kat (27:15):
hierarchy.
Yep.
I love that.
Yay.
Pick ball.
Val (27:17):
Yes.
Kat (27:18):
I will say that I've noticed in queer spaces small
talk doesn't look like it usedto look when I was in
heteronormative spaces and Ithink that's really interesting.
Again, when I think about likemy journey from.
You know, living in a, aheterosexual long term marriage
and the, I don't know the, theconstraints on what was
available to you in making newfriendships.
(27:42):
It really was.
You had to like, it was aroundyour kids and there's not a
complete negative, but alsothere's this strange energy in
modern parenting.
There's a lot of perfectionismmm-hmm and it, it.
Felt good to me.
It was rare that you'd findanother parent that was like,
you know open about the factthat they swear or like that
their house is a mess or youknow, that there, you know what
(28:04):
I mean?
I remember it felt like therewere these nonverbal rules that
existed and I'm noticing that inqueer spaces, it just, those.
Those don't exist, at least notin the same way.
Yeah.
And so, like you were mentioningthat IM pick a ball the first
question, isn't what you do fora living, you know, and then I
would say in queer spaces, it'salso not the first question that
(28:26):
you're, you're getting met witheither.
Yeah.
And so that's really refreshingwhen we can find, you know
places where you get to show upas opposed to like these other
sort of markers that we, we cannavigate through mainline
culture with.
Right.
And I find that refreshing.
Val (28:43):
Ooh, okay.
Oh, I wanted to rant aboutsomething.
May I?
Yeah.
Well because I think you'retalking about social currency
and like what we do if we'repartnered or not, that's a
social currency, right?
If we're parents, and I thinkanother one and I just wanna
push back against it cuz justfuck capitalism is like this
(29:04):
whole thing of well, you know,show me your friends and then
I'll show you what you'llaccomplish or like you will only
go as far as like your threeclosest friends it greats me
because it commodifies peopleand, the transactional nature of
what people think friendshipsare.
Yeah.
Fuck that.
Fuck that.
Like be around people who feelgood to you, be around people
(29:26):
who feel good to your nervoussystem we are gonna talk about
more about like the communitycare, but it really upsets me
when I hear people talking likethat because then talk about
business associates, like, like,sure.
Are we influenced?
Are we are, are, are weinfluenced by the people we were
around?
Ooh, fuck.
Diet culture too.
Like, I remember reading stuffabout like, the, the eating
(29:47):
habits of your friends weregonna like, like determine
whether you were overweight ornot.
Kat (29:52):
follow.
Val (29:53):
you.
Fuck all
Kat (29:54):
I know that makes
Val (29:54):
burn.
That shit.
Kat (29:55):
Yeah,
Val (29:56):
it's like, no, be around people cuz you want to be around
them.
Stop the social climbing, thencall that like business
associates.
That is not right.
Although I, okay.
I'm done with the ramp, but Iunderstand how like
Kat (30:08):
well, no, what you're saying is true.
There are still elements, loudelements in our culture that
commodifies people, right?
Yeah.
And, and it manipulates the needwe have for connection and
community.
Val (30:19):
Yes.
And maybe there needs to be adistinction between friendships
and then community care.
Right.
Cause I, of my first days as asocial worker, we were in a
training and I never forget likethis eye opening statement.
Right.
She was like, you know, usuallymost people get their first job
from someone they know in theircommunity.
Mm.
And if no one is employed inyour community,
Kat (30:39):
wow.
Val (30:40):
How are you going to get your first job?
Wow.
Kat (30:42):
Yeah.
Val (30:43):
Oh yeah.
Oh shit.
Sure.
Like, so your community who, youknow right.
Who, again, like how we'recaring for each other, cuz the
systems whether some of themwere created, you know, with
good intentions or a lot of themwere not created from good
intentions, right.
Created to suppress people.
And it's really all back againabout power consolidating power.
(31:07):
Even just with the school loans.
Oh gosh.
Kat (31:09):
I know, I know
Val (31:10):
A memo coming out from the Reagan era about if college was
free, we would have, I forgetthe term, a strong pro educated
prote.
I don't know if they were like,this is bad.
If everyone is educated for freewe'll lose.
Our power is BA and it's a memo.
It's like a classified memo thatwas released, whatever.
Yeah.
Kat (31:29):
Ugh.
I hate that.
That exists.
Val (31:30):
Yeah, I, I guess in sharing that I want to recognize that
like the communities we live inyour neighborhood will affect,
how you grow up and your healthand the people around you.
But I think I wanna take outfriendship and the people that
you wanna just live life withand share your day with, or go
on an outing with is different
Kat (31:49):
Well, in my story, it's interesting, I make friends with
people that I feel resonantwith.
Right.
And that changes as we evolveand change mm-hmm you know what
I mean?
And so, like the community thatI grew up in, I don't have
friends in that community.
I mean, it's a different stateand everything, but also it was,
there weren't very many healedpeople that I grew up around
mm-hmm you know?
And so when I think about likewho I wanna surround myself with
(32:12):
now, and the kind of people thatI'm attracted to and drawn to
for friendship and community andall of that thing, it's, it's
people that are in resonancewith, how I've evolved, you
know, and yeah.
I don't know.
one of the things about livingin a smaller town or like the
comfort of you go to the postoffice and, you know, people
(32:33):
there here's the tension.
If you grew up there, sometimescommunity can like lock you
Val (32:40):
Yeah.
Kat (32:41):
To like, this is who we understand you as.
And so this is who you need tobe for us.
And that was one thing that Iexperienced within Christianity.
Right.
Mm-hmm like, I was locked in tobeing like a straight person.
Right.
I had.
Idea.
I wasn't straight until I was afull adult, you know?
And then I, you know, like I was40 when I came out 40 years old,
(33:02):
you know?
And so again, like there's,there's the, both, and in all of
this, right, we need community.
We, we want to have those thingsand we wanna have the freedom to
grow and evolve.
And then when I think aboutcultivating relationships over
the course of a lifetime, thereis also this idea that sometimes
we outgrow relationships.
Yeah.
Right.
Be it friendship, or, you know,you have to adjust some
(33:23):
dynamics.
Boundaries with family you knowpeople that we are in resonance
with may continue to change aswe grow up, you know?
And so that's been myexperience, especially like the,
the very clear shift was like, Iwas in a straight heterosexual
Christian marriage I am gay youknow?
And so like, that's a pretty bigshift.
(33:46):
And so yeah, most of the peopleI spend my time with right.
Are, are also.
Val (33:50):
queer
Kat (33:51):
Or, you know, like have that like desire for growth and
evolution and all thosebeautiful things.
So in this conversation aboutfriendship and building
community and all these things,like I also just wanna say,
Val (34:02):
like,
Kat (34:04):
Sometimes these things shift.
And so you make new friends andthat's not a failure.
That's just part of growing andhealing and evolving.
You know,
Val (34:13):
I do love that.
That is part of like, you hearjust kind of in the social
commentary.
Yeah.
Like let's normalizefriendships, not lasting forever
and, and letting them go gently.
Yeah.
And even like, not it not havingto be a breakup or, or yeah.
And even just normalizing thatsometimes friendship breakups,
when they happen can feel as badas like a romantic breakup as
times.
(34:33):
Right.
I'm trying to do my part inbattling that social commentary
that your romantic relationshipis, the end all be all, and that
it should consume most of yourlife and that all these things
especially, you know, I deal alot in CI, hetero relationships,
you know?
And I have hope for the youngergenerations, I joke about like,
(34:54):
well, wow, great.
Your boyfriend knows how toapologize.
And in my head, I'm.
But I'm still working on thatwith my husband, you know?
He's, he's doing better, but, asthey're raised, in households
that maybe are less of this, youknow old school, stereotypical
gender norms that I have morehope for hetero asexual
relationships.
But like, it does seem to be a,a shock for some of my younger
female straight clients to hearyour partner is not gonna
(35:17):
understand it all.
Kat (35:18):
Mm.
You
Val (35:19):
You know?
And, and I think we could saythat in, In any kind of
relationship, right?
That like your partner might notget it all.
And, and that's a lot ofpressure to put on one person
and again, diversify yourinvestments.
That's the number one role ofinvesting diversify and that not
every friend, I don't go toevery friend for everything and
I, I don't get the same thing,but that's why we need to hold
(35:40):
tier of best friends.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (35:43):
Yeah.
A tier of people that we areemotionally comfortable being
vulnerable with.
Right.
And then and then you move outfrom there.
There's another tier whereyou're a little less intimate,
but like, it really does take alot more than one person to meet
all of our complex needs.
You know,
Val (36:01):
We are two complex people.
So it really makes sense that weneed a lot of, we need a
village, it takes a village and
Kat (36:07):
I think all human beings are
Val (36:08):
I know.
I know.
And you know, as you've talkedabout like hyper focusing on
your healing, I think that, andmaybe it was the first time I
verbalized it in our family.
Episode that I think I knew at ayoung age, I felt the isolation
and the smallness of my naturalfamily and some of the distance
that, some people caused in thefamily and I think just from an
(36:31):
early age, I wanted, I'm like, Ineed more people than
Kat (36:34):
this
Val (36:35):
group.
Kat (36:36):
yeah.
Val (36:36):
need more people than this.
I want more people.
And I think that I've alwaysreally valued that.
And I think that's why it was sohard for me when a lot of my
friends started having youngkids, cuz they've even
researched this, that, that zeroto five year old.
When you have zero to five yearolds you're in survival mode,
your relationships do suffer.
(36:57):
And then after they get moreautonomous, then it's like,
you're coming up for air.
And, you know, I have friendsthat, you know, they're in,
they're in that they're at thatstage and our relationships have
kind of they've we have moretime together.
We have, they have more spacefor it.
Right.
I'm going on a girl's weekend,this weekend, we've been trying
to get this together and theirkids are older now and it feels
(37:19):
so good to have some of thatreconnection.
Kat (37:22):
You know?
Well, it's interesting too, cuzlike I, for sure experienced
that when I, when my kids weresmall, it's very isolating.
And again, I feel like it's acritique on the culture, right?
Because it's so much work to bethe only, you know, you and if
you have a partner.
Responsible for small lives andall of the demands that that
requires as opposed to, again,in other cultures or spaces,
(37:46):
it's, it's not on, you know, thetwo parents, it's not the
nuclear family is, is toofucking hard.
on, on, you know, the grownupsit's.
awful.
I didn't like that.
I was looking at a picture of mykids recently and they were so
little.
Val (38:03):
and,
Kat (38:03):
And I was struck by like this wash of like, oh my God, I
love them so much.
And, and at the same time mixedinto all those memories is holy
shit.
That part was so goddamn hard.
I wish there, our culture, youknow, you were gonna talk about
like growing up and having a acommune.
Yeah.
Right.
Val (38:21):
Growing up and having one.
Yeah.
yeah.
When I'm a grownup,
Kat (38:24):
I want that.
I want real communal living,right.
That would've been so differentto be able to raise small
children with other childrenaround and other adults that
like the kids are just runningaround and then you get to like
talk to a grownup, you know?
Val (38:41):
Well, I think that's why even Rafi.
Twin when we go to San Diegothey love that we're around cuz
there are other humans to investin their kids to cuz uncle Rafi
is a big kid.
We know he doesn't always playnice, but he's a big kid, you
know?
And it's like another humanpouring into their kid and I
know you're not gonna glorifythe past because again, right.
There was less rights for womenand all that.
(39:03):
But I remember this onedocumentary of, of some tribes,
somewhere where all the womenwere sitting around and they
were caring for their babiestogether.
Kat (39:11):
Yes, yes.
Val (39:13):
yes.
What a, what, a more beautifulpicture, right.
Even, even introverts needpeople at times.
And I, wanna repeat this, but,you know, my, I remember my
grandmother and I was so excitedabout making friends and like,
well, you're not giving me anextended family.
I need to go make some friends.
Right.
And, and she was like, no, yourfriends will leave.
You.
It's only family that'll bethere for you.
(39:33):
And it was just so odd that theexact opposite had happened.
Yeah.
In my need, it was like, friendsare very important.
And like, I feel the absencewhen I don't have that.
But it is harder when you areolder and there's a lot more
like responsibilities, lesstime, I think too, you were
talking about even in sometender times, not wanting.
(39:55):
That there's a different kind ofenergy for new people.
Yeah.
That, why do we stick?
Why are the, why are the friendsthat we've made in the old
times?
So important?
Cuz they live life with us.
They know us.
They've like journeyed with usand, and it's just a different
ease to go in and spend timewith those people as opposed to
the energy.
Kat (40:13):
Well, again, the amount of time it takes to cultivate
actual intimacy, right.
To like lower the Drawbridge toreference last week.
Yeah.
Right.
So in order to be your full,authentic self with another
person, it takes a little timebecause it's a vulnerable thing
to be.
You know, this is all the waywho I am, and I'm gonna show up
as authentically as I can withyou.
(40:34):
And yeah.
So with someone new, you don'tknow if they're worthy of your
trust yet, you know,
Val (40:38):
Yeah.
And, and we need that tocultivate new friendships.
So the old friendships we'vealready put that time in.
Yeah.
Right.
We've already put that time.
But yes.
Going back to the commune I'mactively recruiting.
well, I have a lot of holes in,in my plan, so I'm not really
sure what's gonna happen becauseI want it now.
Kat (40:55):
I know I want it
Val (40:56):
I want it now where it's not just RKA and I, I feel like
we are extroverted, I've askedbefore, can a, can a
relationship be extroverted?
Like Valentine's day, it waslike who's coming with us, you
know?
And when you're in a very youngromance, People like they, oh,
you should be alone.
We're like, no, we wannacelebrate with other people.
Like, we can go have sex alone,but like Valentine dinner, who's
(41:16):
coming with us.
Who's coming outta ourhoneymoon.
Like, you know we always wantedpeople around.
So I feel like it's good forboth of us.
We're our best selves too, Ithink.
Yeah.
And so I feel like I wanted tohappen now, but then I, I read
this couple stories.
Mm-hmm of there's there wasthese couples that bought some
land.
Kat (41:32):
yeah.
Val (41:33):
and built some tiny homes.
And that's where they're likeretiring with their friends.
Yeah.
Then there's these women, Idon't know if it's China or
Japan.
I I can't remember now, but theythey're in their thirties.
Mm-hmm but they bought thisgiant home.
Yeah.
And they're gonna plan to retirethere.
They're working on it and theyall have, have had this pact
that they're all gonna bring a,a very specialized life skill to
(41:54):
this commune when they're allright.
Gardening.
Right.
Accounting,
Kat (41:59):
dunno.
Mm-hmm,
Val (42:00):
like, all these things, right?
Herbal medicine, one of'em wasstudying.
So they're bringing to this likecommun.
And so there's a part of me thatlike, wants that to be something
for retirement.
Oh, that's very hard to likepredict the future, but there's
a part of me that wants it now.
Yeah.
And, but all the homes are builtfor.
So anyway.
Yeah.
I think I'd be living my bestlife if I was in some sort of
like a communal living
Kat (42:21):
Yeah, same here.
Like when I was a campus pastor,like that's literally what we
did.
Like we rented out houses cuzlike in
Val (42:29):
right
Kat (42:29):
town there's lots of rentals and they, they all
touched each other.
Like, you know, their yardstouched is what I'm trying to
say.
And then like just lots ofcommunity houses and you just
fill'em up with students and wejust, we were fucking living
life together.
So goddamn fun.
Yeah.
I loved that.
And then I, you know, a fewyears later after that I was
married and it felt soisolating.
(42:49):
It was so different.
And I just, I don't know.
I'm I'm with you you know,
Val (42:55):
Someone needs to tell you, like when you live on campus and
you're in college, like.
This is the last time you'regonna be surrounded with that
many people at that, at
Kat (43:04):
again, that's just because our culture was built this way.
Val (43:07):
Yeah.
Kat (43:07):
know what I mean?
Yeah.
It, it it's because it, youknow, it's the whole pull
yourself up individualism,right.
Bootstraps and all that stuff.
And, and again, the, the, theculture we lives in live in has
this like hyperfocus on thenuclear family.
Mm-hmm And again, this like.
You know, private fences inyour, your single family home.
And so that's the thing likeculturally, we have been forced
(43:30):
into isolation.
Right.
Whereas here, you and I are justtwo people that are like, Ooh, I
would prefer not to be inisolation.
Right.
Yeah.
And so
Val (43:39):
all right.
Kat (43:40):
don't know how we, like, We gotta build it.
Val (43:43):
All right.
I have a few friends who arearchitects.
I'm gonna go talk to'em today.
Kat (43:46):
Friends.
We're glad that you exist outthere.
And we, we do love to think ofyou all our listeners as our
friends
Val (43:52):
Well, and part of our community, right?
Yeah.
Like someone accidentallyresponded to something on
Instagram.
They're like, oh, sorry, Val.
I I thought I was responding tomy friend, but.
The podcast.
I'm like, oh, thank you so much.
How'd you know, like, you know,how'd you find us
Kat (44:05):
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
That's so fun.
Yeah.
Reach out to us anytime we, welove that shit.
Val (44:10):
So I feel like the three questions with KA Val are like,
they're like a designinspiration.
Kat (44:18):
okay.
Okay.
Val (44:20):
Like, you know my design aesthetic is cozy.
Mid-century glam.
Ooh.
Kat (44:25):
Ooh,
Val (44:25):
Okay.
When you come into my house,that's, that's the feeling,
right?
There's a whole shelf of discoballs in this house, right?
Kat (44:31):
Cozy midcentury glam.
That's exactly it.
Oh, okay.
Right.
Val (44:35):
But I don't have to like I don't have to have it posted
somewhere.
So I feel like our threequestions are molded into
Kat (44:41):
the conversation.
Val (44:42):
Okay.
In the same way they are, theyare.
And I think today we have talkedabout that.
What we've, what we've learnedabout friendships, sort of how
we, even, how we want to shiftthings.
Kat (44:54):
Yes.
yes,
Val (44:56):
things have shifted in our life with friendships.
As we changed as our life stagechange, as our religious
affiliations have changed andwhat's bringing us pleasure.
I, I feel incredibly gratefulfor you for the friendships in
my life.
And I, I do get a.
Pleasure in cultivating those.
Yeah.
And, and like the richness thatit brings to my life.
Kat (45:19):
Absolutely.
Yay.
Val (45:21):
go.
I did the three questions.
Yay.
Kat (45:24):
All right.
Bye friends.
Val (45:26):
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You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
We're back.
Hello?
Hello.
Hello.
Val (00:35):
Did you miss us?
Come on.
Tell the truth.
Kat (00:39):
We're talking about friendship, Val.
I'm so glad.
You're my friend.
Val (00:42):
Hmm.
I'm glad.
You're my friend too.
Cat.
Kat (00:44):
Yeah.
We've been friends for 28 years.
Yikes.
Do you remember the first timeyou met me?
Val (00:49):
No.
Kat (00:52):
Can I
Val (00:53):
myself and have a very good memory, but at the older I get
the more I just like, Nope, Idon't remember.
Kat (00:58):
that.
Oh my gosh.
I, I don't know for sure if Iremember exactly when I first
met you, but I can remember.
Hearing you laugh from like adistance away.
And I feel like it was probablyaround like Val and I were both
on like drama teams in collegeand our Bible college that we
went to.
And so you were like older andcool.
(01:19):
I mean, were you just asophomore?
And I was a freshman.
guess you seem so like matureand interesting and you like,
you're very popular.
Yes.
And attractive.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And you had like this greatlaugh.
Val (01:31):
Aw.
Kat (01:31):
Yeah.
That's what I remember when Ithink of you.
Val (01:33):
Oh, I that's sweet.
What's really funny that yousaid that was, I get that a lot
where even people I had justmet, she's like, were you at the
community food market on thisday?
Yeah.
I think I heard you laugh
Kat (01:45):
grocery
Val (01:47):
Oh my gosh, this person doesn't even know me.
Who's been with me like threetimes and she can spot my laugh
across the grocery store.
Kat (01:55):
I love that.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Val (01:57):
I mean, there's worse things to be known, you know,
Kat (02:00):
Sure.
Val (02:00):
for.
So I'll take it.
Yeah,
Kat (02:03):
Gregarious person.
Totally.
Val (02:05):
Maybe that just helps me you know, we talk about like
things getting trapped in thebody and all that.
So maybe it's one of my waysjust like, let stuff go
Kat (02:13):
feel.
Yeah.
Having a good loud laugh.
Also, you talk about being likea, an east coaster too, and
aren't just east coasters, justlouder as a loud, right?
Val (02:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
East coast energy.
Yeah.
Louder.
Kat (02:24):
louder.
so you can have a
Val (02:25):
take up more space, you know, we have very intense
feelings.
We like to talk to strangers.
Kat (02:32):
Oh, that's so good.
I love that so much.
so friends.
Yeah.
Today we decided to talk aboutlike how to make friends, having
a friend for the end of theworld.
I feel like there's some showthere's a movie.
It was called how to really,yeah.
How to like finding a friend forthe end of the world or
something with bill Murray.
Val (02:50):
I mean, I feel like that's really important.
Also we watch one of the zombieshows the walking dead which I
probably wouldn't watch if Iwere not married to the person
I'm married to.
If I were alone with my choices,I
Kat (03:03):
probably
Val (03:03):
probably would not choose that.
It's
Kat (03:05):
Is it still going on?
Oh,
Val (03:07):
it's the last fucking season.
Get out with it.
We're only watching it cuz it'sthe end.
It's like 10 seasons, but yeah,it's
Kat (03:12):
a long time for the zombie apocalypse.
Val (03:15):
it's not great.
it's not great.
Oh gosh.
I mean, it really makes youthink about some existential
questions about like thecivility that we like, the, or
maybe even the pretend that theillusion of civility we have in
this world, but just like thisstraight up anarchy, you know,
and just.
How do you, do you trust anyonelast, the last episode we were
(03:36):
talking about moats and likeputting up your walls.
I mean, literally they're likewe gotta maybe kill these people
cuz they're probably gonna wannakill us.
can you imagine, can youimagine?
Kat (03:46):
No, thank you.
Val (03:47):
Anyway, I thought it was funny that you were like, yeah,
let's talk about making friendsfor the end of the world.
I'm like, what do you mean cat
Kat (03:53):
I mean like the fall of capitalism, we're late stage
capitalism and there's like, youknow, climate crisis anyway,
like as an adult, it's harder tomake friends.
We all know that.
And like also we live in like atumultuous times.
Yeah.
And so
Val (04:09):
it's not great.
Kat (04:10):
Yeah.
Like having more friends isimportant.
Let's have more friends.
Val (04:13):
I actually tell them like younger clients, like, look it
gets harder and harder to makefriends.
So.
I wanna send you this letterfrom the other end of the
Kat (04:22):
yeah.
Val (04:23):
from the future.
Like it is harder.
Kat (04:26):
I think what's harder because our culture has fucked
us all over.
Right.
You're required in order to stayalive in this world to work X
amount of time within thecapitalist structure, most
people do not have the emotionalenergy, like it's all given to
the workplace.
Right.
And then you spend your, eveningor your weekend, if you're a
(04:46):
parent, then that's a wholeother thing,
Val (04:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (04:49):
then like you're recovering from like all of the output,
right.
In order to just to survive.
Right.
I'm trying not to be a donor,but it's a donor so I'm like,
Val (04:59):
Well, and even before the pandemic, I feel like, and
again, I don't know where I getthis feeling from, or if anybody
else feels the same way, but itjust felt like the pace everyone
was on the pace society was on.
Like even my friends that havekids, it was like, oh, we have
three birthday parties thisweekend, and then we have to go
do this and then we have karateand then we have that.
(05:19):
And then we're, I mean, it just,it was, it.
It's unsustainable, right.
Or the amount of travel or justthe amount of movement.
It just, it didn't seemsustainable.
Right?
Kat (05:29):
Yeah.
And then, so the pandemic slowedmost of us down.
Right.
Significantly.
So, yeah.
And again, it's in these spacesthough that like cultivating
community or actual, realmeaningful friendships is so
important.
You know, obviously most of usfrom the pandemic are also like,
oh my God, we're prettyisolated, you know?
Right, Yeah.
Val (05:48):
I, I have heard from several people probably in the
general chatter
Kat (05:52):
yeah.
Val (05:53):
that it did maybe make us really take evaluations, who are
the relationships that we reallywanna be a part of what's
important and, and really spendour energy.
Yeah.
In those.
Kat (06:04):
Yeah.
Do you have any, like, reallyweird, like how you made a new
friend stories, do you ever meetin one of really weird ways?
Val (06:11):
I'm sure I do have some, but I can't think of it right
now, but do you have any,
Kat (06:15):
oh my God.
I have this great story.
How I met this like fantasticmusician who later became my
friend.
So yeah, I had discovered thislo musician named Willam mammo.
She's so cool.
You can check her out.
She's on Instagram and she's aqueer musician singer
songwriter, there's somethingabout her that is just like,
she's just shiny.
(06:35):
And you're like, oh my God, Iwanna be in your press.
It's very interesting person.
And so I had newly come out andI was like, you know, wanting to
be in queer spaces.
I can't get anyone to go withme.
And I'm like, ah, I'm just gonnago.
I'm gonna go by myself.
And so I remember I like kind ofducked into the bathroom and I'm
just like on my phone, and asI'm just texting this person, I
(06:58):
hear will mammo humming, like inthe bathroom that I'm in.
And so I'm like, okay.
Oh my God.
And I go to this sink and she'slooking at me and I'm looking at
her.
And I, I think I'm probably likea little starstruck, you know,
mm-hmm But she's, she looks atme and we say, hello, and then
she.
Do I do.
I know you.
And I was like I know you fromthe internet and she was like,
(07:22):
do you like make art?
And I was like, what the fuck ishappening?
My head started exploding, cuz Iwas like, I don't understand
what's happening right now.
And so then I was like, yes.
And she goes, do you make bodypositive art?
And I.
Val (07:36):
was like,
Kat (07:37):
Yes, but I was like having kinda an out body experience.
And then she was like, I wasjust on your page today.
And I was like, I was just onyour page today.
It was just the strangest thing.
She started trying to like kindof bow down to me, like in this
bathroom, because she was solike in impacted by what I was
(07:57):
putting out in the world.
And I was just enthralled withher and what she's putting out
in the world.
And so, like, I remember it justlike, it really fucked with my
head.
For sure was like, well, aAmanda is amazing, you know what
I mean?
And like, gorgeous, like soattractive and like talented,
all these wonderful things, youknow?
So it was not hard to be alittle like sweetie, and she
(08:20):
knows my name.
Aw.
So
Val (08:23):
that's awesome.
Kat (08:24):
I know.
And then that turned into like,you know, we chatted a little
bit at the intermission and.
Val (08:29):
then
Kat (08:30):
We like took a picture together and then like, she
hosts an open mic night and thenlike, I went to that and then
we, she just welcomed me intocommunity.
And so like, I've been to a fewmore of her shows and yeah, like
she's like legit friend of mine,like during the pandemic I gave
her a haircut, so Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, so anyway, if you'reinterested in like a cool
musician and she's like in thebay area, but she's actually
(08:52):
moving cross country.
So I got to give her a hug justlast week and say goodbye to my
like darling friend who, youknow Aww.
Yeah, but I, I love her andlike, it feels really good.
Val (09:02):
She knows me.
Kat (09:02):
she does know me.
Val (09:04):
my art.
Kat (09:07):
So when we think about like cultivating friendships in our
life, you know, like that, thatstory in particular, like I, you
know, it could have just beenlike this fun, like meeting that
we had once, but I rememberlike, Reading on her page, like,
oh, she does these open micthings.
And I have a kid who'sinterested in music and I was
like, oh, I can put myself in,in her presence again, you know?
(09:27):
And so yeah, like making theextra effort to like, be in
spaces where people we'd like tobuild community with are going
to be is, you know, like kind ofa first step to like, how do you
make more friends?
Mm.
So, And I'd say like, my friendgroup has really shifted a lot
since most of my friends when Iwas married I don't spend as
(09:50):
much time with, and, you know,and now I have like a really
wonderful core group of likequeer people in my life, you
know, mm-hmm and and so thoseare the, the main people I, I
see regularly, you know, you'relike the exception I have, like
one or two straight friendsleft.
Yeah.
Val's straight everybody.
you found the.
(10:12):
I said it like out of the sideof my mouth.
So like that's what you'resaying.
That's how you identify.
I have to honor that you saidthat.
Val (10:17):
really, that how funny, you know, If you've been following
around the podcast, I moved hereright after Bible college with,
with my best friend at the time.
And I've been in the bay area,man.
It's been like, 25
Kat (10:31):
years, I know, I know.
I
Val (10:33):
I mean, I love it here.
But, and then I, I still amfriends with some of the, they
were kids.
They were like in the youthgroup or they were just
graduating.
The first church I worked athere and they're still in the
bay or are we keep in contactand, and so it's just.
Lovely to feel because I,because I did, like, I left home
at 17.
Right.
And not feeling like, well, wedon't have any family here.
(10:56):
Right.
And then my husband rap is froma different country, so he
doesn't have family here.
So it kind of feels great.
Like.
To have, they're probably thepeople I've known probably
second longest to you.
Right.
And then another church that Iwent to and that I worked at,
and that spent like most of mytwenties at I made such amazing
lifelong friends and that.
Was kind of really what kept methere at that church.
(11:18):
And like, was the thing thateveryone said was like, oh,
we're finding community.
Cuz a lot of people come to theSan Francisco bay area for work
school.
Right.
they're here for a good time.
Not a long time.
they're here for the vibe.
They're not here for a longtime, but like, yeah.
And we just, we needed communityand we were a welcoming place
and, and, and you know, I stillconsider a lot of them to be
(11:40):
they're in the best frontier.
You know, my closest friendswere in that group.
But unfortunately with a lot ofpeople who live in a
metropolitan area or the bayarea is that people move.
Right.
Kat (11:49):
Right, right.
Right.
Val (11:50):
And so not many of them still live here.
Yeah.
But what has happened is like, Idon't know if I spoke it into
existence or just made ithappen, but it was like, all
right, all of my super closefriends and I mean, years
cultivating these friendships.
Right.
I'm like, I guess I just.
Go visit them.
So so we got our bubble familyin Miami.
(12:11):
We got, you know, the besties inPortland.
We got San Diego.
We I'm planning a trip to Texas.
see a couple of them just had areunion in, in New York city.
And just, I think grateful thatI've been able to do that.
And obviously technology andFaceTimes and phone
Kat (12:25):
all the things.
Val (12:26):
Canada, I just had a friend visit from Canada, you know, but
like just realizing.
Okay.
These friendships are soimportant.
And we were in that like realthose developmental times where
like you're young, you'refiguring yourself out, you're
getting into your career.
We're you're meeting partners.
Those things are just so deepand important and just like,
(12:47):
okay, well I'm not giving upjust cuz they're moving.
Right.
And just, okay, those arefriends.
And, but then unfortunatelythey're not around in physical
body as much.
Right.
And so then I think then, thenthat comes to community, right?
I've had a lot of new people inmy life this year because of
pick a ball, pick ball, shoutout to all the, pick a ball
people.
And it's like, it is thatcommunity.
I joke that like, since we don'thave children or a dog, a dog.
(13:14):
We had friends come, they hadtheir, their toddler.
Yeah.
And I think they had their dogwith them.
Kat (13:19):
Okay.
Val (13:19):
Okay.
And, oh gosh, we went to thefarmer's market.
I mean, it's seriously, someoneasked for their number.
Oh my gosh.
Our kid is the same age.
Like where are you going topreschool?
She's like, I don't live here.
And I was like, oh my gosh, wehaven't met anybody in this,
this
Kat (13:31):
Right, right, Right.
Val (13:33):
So I joke, like if you don't have a kid or a dog, a dog
it's a little bit harder.
Right.
And so I just have this greatrich, like multi-generational
pickle ball community now.
Right.
And maybe one or two are peoplethat like, I would like really
talk about how, how I'm doing,but just to have, I think it was
a missing piece that we had.
Also because we seem to betraveling a lot.
Kat (13:54):
It's
Val (13:55):
like to get those, but I feel like I need those.
Like, I do love to travel.
I'm so curious about the worldand all the different people in
it.
I wanna see all the places andexperience all the things, but I
want roots too.
Yeah.
I've had to fight a little bitfor that, but I want roots and I
feel like I just feel so goodabout that.
Finding that thing that hasconnected me to the community I
(14:17):
live in.
Also, thank you.
We just got a silver medal thisweekend.
Kat (14:21):
yes.
Val (14:22):
pick up all update deceptive.
Kat (14:24):
Val is
Val (14:24):
the role that in.
Kat (14:26):
Yeah.
Silver.
Congratulations.
You
Val (14:28):
the gold.
Thank you very much to like 20year olds.
oh my gosh.
My partner's 53.
Yes.
One of my 46.
So one of the girls was half myage and one was 30 years older.
And so we held our own, but youknow, my body does not bend like
theirs does there's some winnersthat they shouldn't have been
able to get.
their body still is like Gumby.
Like you can, it's disposable.
(14:50):
It's disposable.
Comes back.
It doesn't break.
Kat (14:54):
right.
Val (14:55):
But yeah, I, feel like there's like layers of people in
our lives
Kat (14:59):
that.
Val (15:00):
That I even talk like again in my program or set yourself
for love when like kind ofreclaiming that time that we
have in life when we aren'tpartnered.
And I know we're gonna talk moreabout this when we talk about
it, that like our cultureovervalues romantic.
Connections and the romanticpeople in our lives.
And I love to hear on socialmedia, tell your friends, you
(15:22):
love them so much and make itawkward.
And I do that.
Kat (15:25):
Yeah, I do too.
All my friends.
I'm like, I love you.
I Yeah.
Hey, will we talk about like thetiers of relationship?
So like, you know, we have likethe best frontier
Val (15:34):
Well, yeah, we we've talked about the best frontier, right.
That I don't like to crown onewinner.
Kat (15:41):
it's
Val (15:41):
a race.
It's not a game, everybody.
I, I always say, I feel like youneed, you need a, a few
different people in your lifethat, that are like, If you are
partnered up, you need somebodythat's like you in many ways and
that you can commiserate with.
Right.
And then maybe somebody we've,we've talked about Rai's fake
(16:02):
twin, the peacock twins that shereally helps me kind of see
things from his perspective.
And I, I respect her opinionmore than I did.
Right.
Like those are good.
And just.
So we have the best frontier.
And then I think there arepeople in our lives that maybe
are they're friends.
And they're great.
they're not the ones that whenwe think about, Ooh, I have a
(16:22):
few minutes, like, who would Iwanna be with?
But they're friends, they'regreat.
They're in our lives.
And then I think there's thatacquaintance, that community,
right?
Like people that care about youand know you.
I might have said this on thepodcast before, but like the
first time someone noticed like,because I have a lot of like
this chronic lower back pain andsomeone had said something about
it and, and I just saw theconcern and one of the guys'
(16:44):
faces like the older guys that.
Probably my parents at pickleball.
Yeah.
Probably my parents' age.
And he's like a big jokester,but like I saw in his eye that
at that moment he would've doneanything that I needed and like
was so genuinely concerned aboutmy welfare.
I wish that for everyone, right.
That like you have multiplelevels of people that know you.
(17:07):
care about you.
Right.
And just like miss you whenyou're gone.
Totally.
Yeah.
Right.
I've never lived in a placewhere we have neighbors that we
know.
Yeah.
And I know you have some greatneighbors, you know, neighbors
that know you and care aboutyou.
cause I think all of our life,it was about the church, right.
That was really the place wherepeople were supposed to know
Kat (17:26):
And I think it's really valuable to like, actually think
about these different sort ofagain, tier is what the word
we're using, you know, like alayer, your circles of intimacy.
Right?
Mm-hmm but like, I think thatthere's a lot of value for every
tier, you know?
I have mostly lived in reallylarge cities, but when you know,
we went to college in a smalltown.
Our, our town was small, butthen after college I lived in a
(17:47):
city that was about 50,000 andit had a really small town feel.
It was Boze in Montana and itwas a lot of years ago.
I think it's probably grownsince then, but I remember just,
I would bump into people that Ihappen to know just like at a
store, yeah.
And like, I remember being.
Oh, my God, that felt so nice tonot be like an anonymous human,
(18:10):
trying to get what you're tryingto get.
And I, I was really struck bythat.
And then, I mostly live in, in,in larger city since then.
So I haven't really experiencedthat with the same regularity,
but like to bump into like, justan acquaintance.
Right.
But a human being who knows yourname, it makes me think of the
cheers song, you know?
Oh,
Val (18:29):
I know actually mine and refi's first date,
Kat (18:32):
Uhhuh, he
Val (18:33):
he was talking about like, well, where do you wanna live?
Like, he went hard.
First date went hard.
Mm-hmm and, and I was like, Ireally love San Francisco.
I really love it.
And he.
He didn't have the greatest,first impressions.
Right?
Sure.
And again, he grew up in anincredibly large city in Rio de
Janeiro.
Right.
And so he's like, I wanna livein a place where everybody knows
my name.
(18:53):
He goes a small town in a lake,like in the movie, the
Kat (18:56):
notebook oh my gosh.
She's moving you hard.
Val (19:01):
It's so on brand for, for who he is now.
Now I know him to be, he's like,yeah, like in the notebook, you
know, like I sit down, I, I pullout my newspaper, everything
that he wants in life.
He's like it was Americanmovies,
Kat (19:12):
Oh Yeah.
Val (19:13):
I, I pull out my newspaper and they say, Hey, Hey, Mr.
The usual right.
Uhhuh And so I was.
Okay.
I, I don't wanna leave SanFrancisco.
And then, so of course I put onthe charm, like, okay, we'll get
like a, like a vacation home ina place, like, like a notebook.
I'm like, okay, fine.
That was good enough for me inthe moment.
But we live in a, a little beachcommunity, a little island in
(19:34):
the east bay, if you will.
And it does have that feel.
Yeah.
And I had to kind of convincehim to move here cuz he needs,
he needs, oh, we're gonna talkabout personalities next time.
He needs to sense it.
He needs to be in it, but I'mlike, no, no you're gonna love
this place.
And so we have, we have a cafewhere, you know, the waiters
know him and they're like theusual crab cakes, Beed addict,
you know know how he likes hiscoffee and he is, he's so happy
(19:57):
for it.
Right?
Kat (19:58):
Well, that's a great point, Val, like for cultivating, like
if we're trying to make newfriends and community like
frequenting, the same place overand over again is actually a
pretty good like method, youknow,
Val (20:09):
yeah,
Kat (20:10):
And, you know, listeners, when you think about like, how
do you make friends startingwith your acquaintance level
people and seeing like, Hey, isthere someone in that rung of
people I might like to get toknow them more, you know?
Val (20:21):
Well, we did talk about vulnerability last
Kat (20:23):
Yeah, we really did.
Val (20:25):
we were like, you modeled it for us.
Kat (20:30):
I'm a model, everybody.
I'm a model.
Yes.
Val (20:32):
a model where, you know, we talked about lowering that
Drawbridge.
Yeah.
Right.
And like making yourselfvulnerable to allow someone in.
Right.
And so I think it is likeputting yourself out there.
So, so yeah, to make newfriends, I think just kind of be
around you gotta kind of.
Be around yeah.
And be open.
(20:53):
Right.
That's why I think dogs are petsare good.
Right.
You go to the dog park or peoplestrike up a conversation because
of the dogs or right.
It's these like shared thingsthat,
Kat (21:04):
Well, one thing that I think is great about the
internet is that it's prettyeasy to find groups of people
based on different identitiesyou fall within.
Right?
So I'm pretty vocal about beingpart of the fat community mm-hmm
And so like, I, my art is likefat liberation art.
So there's a, collection ofhumans that live in fat bodies
and who are also sort of, you.
Saying, no thank you dietculture, we're gonna be
(21:26):
liberated.
And so like you know, if that'sone of your identities, there
are like groups you could liketap in, you know?
Yeah.
You know, fat community in yourarea or, you know, and then you
and I both have a chronicillness.
And so like those, some of thosesupport groups exist.
And so a lot of.
Online spaces also have localin-person meetups.
You know, I'm also a queerperson.
So same thing.
(21:46):
I have some online groups thathave in-person meetups.
And what you're saying is reallytrue, Val.
Like if, if we wanna pushagainst the, the loneliness that
is, you know, pretty rampant inour culture, we have to push
ourselves out of our comfortzone.
And there's just, there's no wayaround that piece.
Right.
We have to put ourselves whereother humans are.
(22:07):
Or make the effort to like, youknow connect and then, you know,
and then once you have likethese tears of people, there's
like other great things that youcan do to sort of deepen those
connections, you know?
Val (22:19):
know.
Yeah.
And as listening to you talking,like I have to make, I haven't
been the best at that.
And I think, because like, from,I just wonder, like from such a
young age, it was like,everything is around church.
And even some of the messages oflike your close friends should
be Christians because of theinfluence they have and all that
stuff.
Right.
But I think I'm just used tothat and I do have some
(22:39):
identities I've even thoughtlike, and I've shared this on
some of the other episodes thatit was really a rough time for
me socially when all my friendshad young, young kids and not,
not all my friends had kids atthe same age, but, but it was
pretty much in a general likefive year.
And then of course going throughmy own infertility at the same
time, and then kind ofstruggling with my husband's
(22:59):
travel and his business and allof that at the same time was
just incredibly.
It, it made for a very lonelytime and I really wish, I always
suggest that to clients like,Hey, have you thought about it?
And sometimes it feels toopainful to be in a support group
or maybe interest group oridentity group actually feels a
little bit less.
Cuz sometimes I think peoplehave said like, I don't wanna go
into a, a small group about myproblem, cuz it's just, it just
(23:22):
feels like so much of maybepeople feel overwhelmed sure.
By this shared experiencesometimes.
And sometimes it feels veryaffirming yeah.
And, and cathartic.
But I think that I wish Iwould've reached out cuz I felt
very isolated.
I didn't know anyone else thatwas going through infertility
and it's such a uniqueexperience.
I wish I would've found thepeople that said yeah, me.
(23:43):
which is one of my favoritequotes about friendship.
Like friends are made when, whenyou turn to someone and say, oh,
you too,
Kat (23:49):
right.
Ugh.
Yeah.
Val (23:50):
Even in therapy.
I've read some things about how.
People are wanting therapistswith lived experience because
it's in the nuance that you feelseen and you feel known.
In that shared experience, it'slike, you really understand what
I'm going through and how heavythis is.
I should have reached out andfound people that were more in
my stage of life.
Right.
Because that is, that does causestress and isolation.
(24:14):
When you go through stages oflife that are different than
your peers, you have childrenearlier, you have children
later, you go back, you go toschool, right?
Imagine when someone goes backto school older
Kat (24:25):
yeah.
And again, that's the thing,like the internet is actually a
great place to sort of findthose and then you can move from
the internet to like, you know,some real life interactions and
stuff like that.
Val (24:35):
There was a time where we did we were like sort of living
in a new area and I was.
I do love this, that Bumble has,they have a professional and
then romance and then the friendone too.
Right.
And so it was like, oh, you
Kat (24:48):
there's an app for that.
Yeah.
Val (24:49):
There's a net for that.
Finding friendships.
Kat (24:52):
yeah.
Val (24:52):
Is is also important and let's help people find that.
So, so I was on there for alittle while.
Like a lot of people were justlike, oh, I'm new to the area.
Or I went through a lifetransition, whether my kids left
or I went through a divorce orall these things and looking for
friends and I think, yeah, geton there and, and, and find some
people.
I think that we have more toolsthan ever yeah.
(25:13):
To be connected.
Yeah.
Kat (25:14):
And,, so once you've made contact with, a couple humans
that you're like, oh, I'd liketo know you better.
We have three questions that canhelp deepen your relationships.
I feel like we've been a littleguilty Val on the last.
Several episodes where we, like,we haven't actually like set our
questions out loud.
Yeah.
And so like, yeah.
The title of the podcast,everybody's three questions with
(25:34):
cat and Val.
Yeah.
And so the questions are, what'sbringing you pleasure.
Yep.
And then what are you learning?
Yes.
And what's moving around foryou?
Yes.
And so what's fun about thesequestions, depending on the
level of relationship you havewith whomever, you're discussing
this with, you know, again, wejust talked about vulnerability.
Last episode, you get to decidehow deep you go in any of these
(25:55):
mm-hmm but they, they are adeepening thing, you know, like
how to get to know someone.
right, is to be interested inthem.
And, and our, our conversationscan go so much.
They can become so much morericher if we move away from like
traditional small talk, youknow, what do you do for a
living?
Where did you grow up?
You know?
Yeah.
Val (26:10):
Well, and, you know, use your judgment, dear friends.
If your opening line is what'sbringing you pleasure you know,
you might get a
Kat (26:16):
it works for me.
That works for me.
Val (26:21):
there you go.
There you go.
Friends.
There you go.
But I love that somebody saidlike, instead of asking, what do
you do?
For a living ask, what do you dofor fun?
Or what do you love to do?
Oh yeah.
I love that.
I love actually I pickle balltoo.
That nobody's, asking like, oh,what do you do?
Right.
That's not what people areleading with.
It's like, who cares?
But how many spaces are you in?
(26:43):
Or at least I was in that,wasn't the first question.
And so I love sneakily findingout my partner's a CEO of a
company
Kat (26:51):
wow.
Val (26:51):
And then it's hilarious when people find out that I'm a
therapist, cuz no one's asking.
Kat (26:56):
I love that though, because again, I think capitalism has
sort of taught us to rank peoplebased on perfection mm-hmm and
if you're in a new space whereyou're like, no, we are here to
play.
Yeah.
We're here to play together.
And so like you bring yourpresence.
It's it's less about socialcurrency stuff.
Val (27:14):
Mm-hmm mm-hmm social
Kat (27:15):
hierarchy.
Yep.
I love that.
Yay.
Pick ball.
Val (27:17):
Yes.
Kat (27:18):
I will say that I've noticed in queer spaces small
talk doesn't look like it usedto look when I was in
heteronormative spaces and Ithink that's really interesting.
Again, when I think about likemy journey from.
You know, living in a, aheterosexual long term marriage
and the, I don't know the, theconstraints on what was
available to you in making newfriendships.
(27:42):
It really was.
You had to like, it was aroundyour kids and there's not a
complete negative, but alsothere's this strange energy in
modern parenting.
There's a lot of perfectionismmm-hmm and it, it.
Felt good to me.
It was rare that you'd findanother parent that was like,
you know open about the factthat they swear or like that
their house is a mess or youknow, that there, you know what
(28:04):
I mean?
I remember it felt like therewere these nonverbal rules that
existed and I'm noticing that inqueer spaces, it just, those.
Those don't exist, at least notin the same way.
Yeah.
And so, like you were mentioningthat IM pick a ball the first
question, isn't what you do fora living, you know, and then I
would say in queer spaces, it'salso not the first question that
(28:26):
you're, you're getting met witheither.
Yeah.
And so that's really refreshingwhen we can find, you know
places where you get to show upas opposed to like these other
sort of markers that we, we cannavigate through mainline
culture with.
Right.
And I find that refreshing.
Val (28:43):
Ooh, okay.
Oh, I wanted to rant aboutsomething.
May I?
Yeah.
Well because I think you'retalking about social currency
and like what we do if we'repartnered or not, that's a
social currency, right?
If we're parents, and I thinkanother one and I just wanna
push back against it cuz justfuck capitalism is like this
(29:04):
whole thing of well, you know,show me your friends and then
I'll show you what you'llaccomplish or like you will only
go as far as like your threeclosest friends it greats me
because it commodifies peopleand, the transactional nature of
what people think friendshipsare.
Yeah.
Fuck that.
Fuck that.
Like be around people who feelgood to you, be around people
(29:26):
who feel good to your nervoussystem we are gonna talk about
more about like the communitycare, but it really upsets me
when I hear people talking likethat because then talk about
business associates, like, like,sure.
Are we influenced?
Are we are, are, are weinfluenced by the people we were
around?
Ooh, fuck.
Diet culture too.
Like, I remember reading stuffabout like, the, the eating
(29:47):
habits of your friends weregonna like, like determine
whether you were overweight ornot.
Kat (29:52):
follow.
Val (29:53):
you.
Fuck all
Kat (29:54):
I know that makes
Val (29:54):
burn.
That shit.
Kat (29:55):
Yeah,
Val (29:56):
it's like, no, be around people cuz you want to be around
them.
Stop the social climbing, thencall that like business
associates.
That is not right.
Although I, okay.
I'm done with the ramp, but Iunderstand how like
Kat (30:08):
well, no, what you're saying is true.
There are still elements, loudelements in our culture that
commodifies people, right?
Yeah.
And, and it manipulates the needwe have for connection and
community.
Val (30:19):
Yes.
And maybe there needs to be adistinction between friendships
and then community care.
Right.
Cause I, of my first days as asocial worker, we were in a
training and I never forget likethis eye opening statement.
Right.
She was like, you know, usuallymost people get their first job
from someone they know in theircommunity.
Mm.
And if no one is employed inyour community,
Kat (30:39):
wow.
Val (30:40):
How are you going to get your first job?
Wow.
Kat (30:42):
Yeah.
Val (30:43):
Oh yeah.
Oh shit.
Sure.
Like, so your community who, youknow right.
Who, again, like how we'recaring for each other, cuz the
systems whether some of themwere created, you know, with
good intentions or a lot of themwere not created from good
intentions, right.
Created to suppress people.
And it's really all back againabout power consolidating power.
(31:07):
Even just with the school loans.
Oh gosh.
Kat (31:09):
I know, I know
Val (31:10):
A memo coming out from the Reagan era about if college was
free, we would have, I forgetthe term, a strong pro educated
prote.
I don't know if they were like,this is bad.
If everyone is educated for freewe'll lose.
Our power is BA and it's a memo.
It's like a classified memo thatwas released, whatever.
Yeah.
Kat (31:29):
Ugh.
I hate that.
That exists.
Val (31:30):
Yeah, I, I guess in sharing that I want to recognize that
like the communities we live inyour neighborhood will affect,
how you grow up and your healthand the people around you.
But I think I wanna take outfriendship and the people that
you wanna just live life withand share your day with, or go
on an outing with is different
Kat (31:49):
Well, in my story, it's interesting, I make friends with
people that I feel resonantwith.
Right.
And that changes as we evolveand change mm-hmm you know what
I mean?
And so, like the community thatI grew up in, I don't have
friends in that community.
I mean, it's a different stateand everything, but also it was,
there weren't very many healedpeople that I grew up around
mm-hmm you know?
And so when I think about likewho I wanna surround myself with
(32:12):
now, and the kind of people thatI'm attracted to and drawn to
for friendship and community andall of that thing, it's, it's
people that are in resonancewith, how I've evolved, you
know, and yeah.
I don't know.
one of the things about livingin a smaller town or like the
comfort of you go to the postoffice and, you know, people
(32:33):
there here's the tension.
If you grew up there, sometimescommunity can like lock you
Val (32:40):
Yeah.
Kat (32:41):
To like, this is who we understand you as.
And so this is who you need tobe for us.
And that was one thing that Iexperienced within Christianity.
Right.
Mm-hmm like, I was locked in tobeing like a straight person.
Right.
I had.
Idea.
I wasn't straight until I was afull adult, you know?
And then I, you know, like I was40 when I came out 40 years old,
(33:02):
you know?
And so again, like there's,there's the, both, and in all of
this, right, we need community.
We, we want to have those thingsand we wanna have the freedom to
grow and evolve.
And then when I think aboutcultivating relationships over
the course of a lifetime, thereis also this idea that sometimes
we outgrow relationships.
Yeah.
Right.
Be it friendship, or, you know,you have to adjust some
(33:23):
dynamics.
Boundaries with family you knowpeople that we are in resonance
with may continue to change aswe grow up, you know?
And so that's been myexperience, especially like the,
the very clear shift was like, Iwas in a straight heterosexual
Christian marriage I am gay youknow?
And so like, that's a pretty bigshift.
(33:46):
And so yeah, most of the peopleI spend my time with right.
Are, are also.
Val (33:50):
queer
Kat (33:51):
Or, you know, like have that like desire for growth and
evolution and all thosebeautiful things.
So in this conversation aboutfriendship and building
community and all these things,like I also just wanna say,
Val (34:02):
like,
Kat (34:04):
Sometimes these things shift.
And so you make new friends andthat's not a failure.
That's just part of growing andhealing and evolving.
You know,
Val (34:13):
I do love that.
That is part of like, you hearjust kind of in the social
commentary.
Yeah.
Like let's normalizefriendships, not lasting forever
and, and letting them go gently.
Yeah.
And even like, not it not havingto be a breakup or, or yeah.
And even just normalizing thatsometimes friendship breakups,
when they happen can feel as badas like a romantic breakup as
times.
(34:33):
Right.
I'm trying to do my part inbattling that social commentary
that your romantic relationshipis, the end all be all, and that
it should consume most of yourlife and that all these things
especially, you know, I deal alot in CI, hetero relationships,
you know?
And I have hope for the youngergenerations, I joke about like,
(34:54):
well, wow, great.
Your boyfriend knows how toapologize.
And in my head, I'm.
But I'm still working on thatwith my husband, you know?
He's, he's doing better, but, asthey're raised, in households
that maybe are less of this, youknow old school, stereotypical
gender norms that I have morehope for hetero asexual
relationships.
But like, it does seem to be a,a shock for some of my younger
female straight clients to hearyour partner is not gonna
(35:17):
understand it all.
Kat (35:18):
Mm.
You
Val (35:19):
You know?
And, and I think we could saythat in, In any kind of
relationship, right?
That like your partner might notget it all.
And, and that's a lot ofpressure to put on one person
and again, diversify yourinvestments.
That's the number one role ofinvesting diversify and that not
every friend, I don't go toevery friend for everything and
I, I don't get the same thing,but that's why we need to hold
(35:40):
tier of best friends.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (35:43):
Yeah.
A tier of people that we areemotionally comfortable being
vulnerable with.
Right.
And then and then you move outfrom there.
There's another tier whereyou're a little less intimate,
but like, it really does take alot more than one person to meet
all of our complex needs.
You know,
Val (36:01):
We are two complex people.
So it really makes sense that weneed a lot of, we need a
village, it takes a village and
Kat (36:07):
I think all human beings are
Val (36:08):
I know.
I know.
And you know, as you've talkedabout like hyper focusing on
your healing, I think that, andmaybe it was the first time I
verbalized it in our family.
Episode that I think I knew at ayoung age, I felt the isolation
and the smallness of my naturalfamily and some of the distance
that, some people caused in thefamily and I think just from an
(36:31):
early age, I wanted, I'm like, Ineed more people than
Kat (36:34):
this
Val (36:35):
group.
Kat (36:36):
yeah.
Val (36:36):
need more people than this.
I want more people.
And I think that I've alwaysreally valued that.
And I think that's why it was sohard for me when a lot of my
friends started having youngkids, cuz they've even
researched this, that, that zeroto five year old.
When you have zero to five yearolds you're in survival mode,
your relationships do suffer.
(36:57):
And then after they get moreautonomous, then it's like,
you're coming up for air.
And, you know, I have friendsthat, you know, they're in,
they're in that they're at thatstage and our relationships have
kind of they've we have moretime together.
We have, they have more spacefor it.
Right.
I'm going on a girl's weekend,this weekend, we've been trying
to get this together and theirkids are older now and it feels
(37:19):
so good to have some of thatreconnection.
Kat (37:22):
You know?
Well, it's interesting too, cuzlike I, for sure experienced
that when I, when my kids weresmall, it's very isolating.
And again, I feel like it's acritique on the culture, right?
Because it's so much work to bethe only, you know, you and if
you have a partner.
Responsible for small lives andall of the demands that that
requires as opposed to, again,in other cultures or spaces,
(37:46):
it's, it's not on, you know, thetwo parents, it's not the
nuclear family is, is toofucking hard.
on, on, you know, the grownupsit's.
awful.
I didn't like that.
I was looking at a picture of mykids recently and they were so
little.
Val (38:03):
and,
Kat (38:03):
And I was struck by like this wash of like, oh my God, I
love them so much.
And, and at the same time mixedinto all those memories is holy
shit.
That part was so goddamn hard.
I wish there, our culture, youknow, you were gonna talk about
like growing up and having a acommune.
Yeah.
Right.
Val (38:21):
Growing up and having one.
Yeah.
yeah.
When I'm a grownup,
Kat (38:24):
I want that.
I want real communal living,right.
That would've been so differentto be able to raise small
children with other childrenaround and other adults that
like the kids are just runningaround and then you get to like
talk to a grownup, you know?
Val (38:41):
Well, I think that's why even Rafi.
Twin when we go to San Diegothey love that we're around cuz
there are other humans to investin their kids to cuz uncle Rafi
is a big kid.
We know he doesn't always playnice, but he's a big kid, you
know?
And it's like another humanpouring into their kid and I
know you're not gonna glorifythe past because again, right.
There was less rights for womenand all that.
(39:03):
But I remember this onedocumentary of, of some tribes,
somewhere where all the womenwere sitting around and they
were caring for their babiestogether.
Kat (39:11):
Yes, yes.
Val (39:13):
yes.
What a, what, a more beautifulpicture, right.
Even, even introverts needpeople at times.
And I, wanna repeat this, but,you know, my, I remember my
grandmother and I was so excitedabout making friends and like,
well, you're not giving me anextended family.
I need to go make some friends.
Right.
And, and she was like, no, yourfriends will leave.
You.
It's only family that'll bethere for you.
(39:33):
And it was just so odd that theexact opposite had happened.
Yeah.
In my need, it was like, friendsare very important.
And like, I feel the absencewhen I don't have that.
But it is harder when you areolder and there's a lot more
like responsibilities, lesstime, I think too, you were
talking about even in sometender times, not wanting.
(39:55):
That there's a different kind ofenergy for new people.
Yeah.
That, why do we stick?
Why are the, why are the friendsthat we've made in the old
times?
So important?
Cuz they live life with us.
They know us.
They've like journeyed with usand, and it's just a different
ease to go in and spend timewith those people as opposed to
the energy.
Kat (40:13):
Well, again, the amount of time it takes to cultivate
actual intimacy, right.
To like lower the Drawbridge toreference last week.
Yeah.
Right.
So in order to be your full,authentic self with another
person, it takes a little timebecause it's a vulnerable thing
to be.
You know, this is all the waywho I am, and I'm gonna show up
as authentically as I can withyou.
(40:34):
And yeah.
So with someone new, you don'tknow if they're worthy of your
trust yet, you know,
Val (40:38):
Yeah.
And, and we need that tocultivate new friendships.
So the old friendships we'vealready put that time in.
Yeah.
Right.
We've already put that time.
But yes.
Going back to the commune I'mactively recruiting.
well, I have a lot of holes in,in my plan, so I'm not really
sure what's gonna happen becauseI want it now.
Kat (40:55):
I know I want it
Val (40:56):
I want it now where it's not just RKA and I, I feel like
we are extroverted, I've askedbefore, can a, can a
relationship be extroverted?
Like Valentine's day, it waslike who's coming with us, you
know?
And when you're in a very youngromance, People like they, oh,
you should be alone.
We're like, no, we wannacelebrate with other people.
Like, we can go have sex alone,but like Valentine dinner, who's
(41:16):
coming with us.
Who's coming outta ourhoneymoon.
Like, you know we always wantedpeople around.
So I feel like it's good forboth of us.
We're our best selves too, Ithink.
Yeah.
And so I feel like I wanted tohappen now, but then I, I read
this couple stories.
Mm-hmm of there's there wasthese couples that bought some
land.
Kat (41:32):
yeah.
Val (41:33):
and built some tiny homes.
And that's where they're likeretiring with their friends.
Yeah.
Then there's these women, Idon't know if it's China or
Japan.
I I can't remember now, but theythey're in their thirties.
Mm-hmm but they bought thisgiant home.
Yeah.
And they're gonna plan to retirethere.
They're working on it and theyall have, have had this pact
that they're all gonna bring a,a very specialized life skill to
(41:54):
this commune when they're allright.
Gardening.
Right.
Accounting,
Kat (41:59):
dunno.
Mm-hmm,
Val (42:00):
like, all these things, right?
Herbal medicine, one of'em wasstudying.
So they're bringing to this likecommun.
And so there's a part of me thatlike, wants that to be something
for retirement.
Oh, that's very hard to likepredict the future, but there's
a part of me that wants it now.
Yeah.
And, but all the homes are builtfor.
So anyway.
Yeah.
I think I'd be living my bestlife if I was in some sort of
like a communal living
Kat (42:21):
Yeah, same here.
Like when I was a campus pastor,like that's literally what we
did.
Like we rented out houses cuzlike in
Val (42:29):
right
Kat (42:29):
town there's lots of rentals and they, they all
touched each other.
Like, you know, their yardstouched is what I'm trying to
say.
And then like just lots ofcommunity houses and you just
fill'em up with students and wejust, we were fucking living
life together.
So goddamn fun.
Yeah.
I loved that.
And then I, you know, a fewyears later after that I was
married and it felt soisolating.
(42:49):
It was so different.
And I just, I don't know.
I'm I'm with you you know,
Val (42:55):
Someone needs to tell you, like when you live on campus and
you're in college, like.
This is the last time you'regonna be surrounded with that
many people at that, at
Kat (43:04):
again, that's just because our culture was built this way.
Val (43:07):
Yeah.
Kat (43:07):
know what I mean?
Yeah.
It, it it's because it, youknow, it's the whole pull
yourself up individualism,right.
Bootstraps and all that stuff.
And, and again, the, the, theculture we lives in live in has
this like hyperfocus on thenuclear family.
Mm-hmm And again, this like.
You know, private fences inyour, your single family home.
And so that's the thing likeculturally, we have been forced
(43:30):
into isolation.
Right.
Whereas here, you and I are justtwo people that are like, Ooh, I
would prefer not to be inisolation.
Right.
Yeah.
And so
Val (43:39):
all right.
Kat (43:40):
don't know how we, like, We gotta build it.
Val (43:43):
All right.
I have a few friends who arearchitects.
I'm gonna go talk to'em today.
Kat (43:46):
Friends.
We're glad that you exist outthere.
And we, we do love to think ofyou all our listeners as our
friends
Val (43:52):
Well, and part of our community, right?
Yeah.
Like someone accidentallyresponded to something on
Instagram.
They're like, oh, sorry, Val.
I I thought I was responding tomy friend, but.
The podcast.
I'm like, oh, thank you so much.
How'd you know, like, you know,how'd you find us
Kat (44:05):
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
That's so fun.
Yeah.
Reach out to us anytime we, welove that shit.
Val (44:10):
So I feel like the three questions with KA Val are like,
they're like a designinspiration.
Kat (44:18):
okay.
Okay.
Val (44:20):
Like, you know my design aesthetic is cozy.
Mid-century glam.
Ooh.
Kat (44:25):
Ooh,
Val (44:25):
Okay.
When you come into my house,that's, that's the feeling,
right?
There's a whole shelf of discoballs in this house, right?
Kat (44:31):
Cozy midcentury glam.
That's exactly it.
Oh, okay.
Right.
Val (44:35):
But I don't have to like I don't have to have it posted
somewhere.
So I feel like our threequestions are molded into
Kat (44:41):
the conversation.
Val (44:42):
Okay.
In the same way they are, theyare.
And I think today we have talkedabout that.
What we've, what we've learnedabout friendships, sort of how
we, even, how we want to shiftthings.
Kat (44:54):
Yes.
yes,
Val (44:56):
things have shifted in our life with friendships.
As we changed as our life stagechange, as our religious
affiliations have changed andwhat's bringing us pleasure.
I, I feel incredibly gratefulfor you for the friendships in
my life.
And I, I do get a.
Pleasure in cultivating those.
Yeah.
And, and like the richness thatit brings to my life.
Kat (45:19):
Absolutely.
Yay.
Val (45:21):
go.
I did the three questions.
Yay.
Kat (45:24):
All right.
Bye friends.
Val (45:26):
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But you're ready to give up ondating it's.
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Kat (45:44):
It's like you're a
Val (45:45):
dating doula.
Exactly.
I'm here to guide you on yourjourney to love.
Grab your spot and get more infoat.
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Yay.
Kat (45:56):
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