July 26, 2022 • 48 mins
Kat and Val get into their relationship experiences when faced with what appears to be an “unsolvable problem”. With love, laughter and candor, our hosts share what it looks like to “manage” this kind of core-values conflict. As always, understanding ourselves better makes a path forward so much more clear. Join us!
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast
Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club
Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art
Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
The Gottman Institute: Dreams Within Conflict
Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
(00:34):
Oh, here we are again, myfriend.
Kat (00:37):
hello, Val.
Val (00:38):
How are you doing
Kat (00:39):
for today?
Oh I love that.
We open all of our episodes.
Giggling.
Val (00:43):
I do like it.
I dunno if anyone else likes it,
Kat (00:45):
we like it.
It's good for us.
Oh, friends.
We just like each other andVal's so gorgeous right now.
People I made I took a wholebunch of pictures and then Val
was like, I might need to takethis into my own hands.
Yes.
Val (00:58):
Yes.
Kat (00:59):
yes.
Val (00:59):
Self love
Kat (01:05):
yay
Val (01:05):
right.
But I am wearing this beautifulshirt I got, my little shopping
trip yesterday, and I told youthat I was mad at my husband for
being gone so long.
So I was like, he's like, what'syour plan for today's sugar?
And I was like, I'm going out tospend your money.
Asshole.
Kat (01:22):
cause he hasn't gone a long fucking time.
Val (01:24):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
We're gonna talk about that alittle more, but I was like,
yeah, I'm just going to go spendyour money.
And just so that, you know, it'sjust really etched into your
brain.
It's not a good idea to becaught this
Kat (01:36):
I know you told me that normally you guys talk about
your money as your guys' money,like your money together,
collectively and that whenyou're mad at him, you're like,
I'm gonna spend your money
Val (01:44):
Exactly, exactly.
Cuz it's our money.
Like, like we have one account,but I, yeah, exactly.
It feels good to be like I'mspending your money.
Cause I know how much it hurtshim.
It hurts him to part with hismoney.
When, when when we were youngerwe would go and, and this
barista would always be like,Hey, where's Rafi.
I'm like Paul, he's out makingmy money.
(02:08):
so I loved saying that where'sRafi, he's out making my money.
Kat (02:13):
Oh that's awesome.
Val (02:13):
then I realized it's our money.
but I was like, babe, you knowthat I could really fuck you up.
I remind every once in a while Iwant him to be a little scared.
I feel like that's healthy,isn't it?
No, is that, but I'm like, youknow, I could just take all of
our money and you would neverknow
Kat (02:35):
Could, could.
Val (02:36):
and actually my grandma is so funny.
Right.
She's like OG, I mean, don'tever joke with her that our
family was ever in the Italianmob from New York.
I don't think that they were,yeah.
Wink, wink.
I mean, I actually don't thinkthey were, but like, don't joke
with her about that, but she's alittle bit gangster.
She's like.
Take it from me.
Just hide a little bit of yourmoney from Rafi.
(02:58):
Just a little, just a little onthe side.
Every woman needs a littlemoney.
Her husband doesn't knowanything about now.
I mean, granted, she was born inthe twenties and women were
actually not allowed to havetheir own bank
Kat (03:07):
I know So,
Val (03:08):
right.
But so RAI hates to hear that,cuz he thinks he's got my
grandmother wrapped around hislittle finger, but she doesn't
trust him.
Kat (03:17):
that's
Val (03:18):
he's a trauma.
She says he's a cha yeah.
But she really likes that heloves his money and saves his
money.
If I know that Rafi, he saveshis money
Kat (03:30):
Oh my gosh he does, Oh, these are good grandma stories.
Val (03:32):
Oh, oh man.
Well, I haven't even broken outthe, the grandma stories.
There's some pretty amazingones, but I know how, how much
it hurts my husband's apart withhis money.
So, I mean, I bought a shirt atfull price,
Kat (03:43):
Yes you
Val (03:44):
wild as I got and I bought a lipstick with credit.
And then he was like, no, no,no, no, babe.
Don't do it.
Don't do it.
It will just grow weeds insideyour beautiful heart.
You're a good woman.
You're a good woman.
I'm like, yes, I am.
So stop fucking around.
Kat (03:58):
I know.
And so like your act ofrebellion is to buy one gorgeous
shirt that looks amazing on youat full price one
Val (04:05):
just one.
Kat (04:07):
it was such a good investment.
Cuz you got all that greatdopamine.
You got to be a little bitrebellious and just sort of like
exercise your autonomy cuz he'sgone at work for work way too
long Yeah And so yeah I thinkthat was, those are good choices
you made Val.
Val (04:21):
I think I did.
And then he had like some goodmeetings at work and if you've
been around for a while that Iget full permission from him to
share about our lives.
I get consent.
So don't worry about him.
But I said, you know, I'm gonnatalk about our relationship on
look podcast today.
Kat (04:33):
He's been warned He's been well
Val (04:35):
oh man, don't do it.
Don't do it.
I'm gonna get the haters.
Kat (04:38):
He's always making up haters
Val (04:40):
he's
Kat (04:41):
that motherfucker doesn't know what haters are.
Val (04:44):
He's worried about the haters.
No, no.
And then he's like, babe, I hadsuch good.
I have such good meetings.
I'm going to fill your breastswith cash.
Kat (04:53):
My God.
Val (04:58):
I said you know, I'm saying that on the podcast.
No, no, don't do it.
Don't do it.
They're gonna think it's a poor,no podcast.
I said they probably already do.
It's all right.
You're cat's showing you up.
It's all good.
Kat (05:10):
Oh my
Val (05:11):
God.
But that's how much he lovescash.
So, I mean, yeah, well
Kat (05:14):
sounds pretty kinky to me.
Val (05:16):
So no, So the other, the other way I've been trying to
cope while he's gone is playingpickleball.
Oh yeah.
Got second place and a little,little round
Kat (05:26):
I didn't know you were doing
Val (05:27):
round Robin tournament.
It's like you change partnerswith every game.
So it's not, not like the othertournaments, but yeah, it was,
it was fun.
There was a little, I
Kat (05:35):
place though
Val (05:36):
Yeah.
competitive.
I am actually, it, it is.
I don't know if it's always sogood, but
Kat (05:42):
always noticeable.
Like from our conversations,like people who listen to the
podcast, they probably have noidea.
I barely see this competitiveside of you.
Yeah.
I like hearing
Val (05:50):
remember.
Kat (05:50):
though.
Val (05:53):
you like that?
Don't you got, let me tell youhow see.
I can't do it.
I was about to try to dosomething sexy with competition
and I was like, wow, I don'tknow what I'm doing.
I
Kat (06:04):
you lost your nerve.
Val (06:05):
I didn't know what to say.
Kat (06:09):
okay.
So this is funny You would come,I have friends in my circle of
friends.
I can't remember exactly how itcame up, but someone's talking
about flirting.
I'm always talking aboutflirting and I'm like, I'm like
such a good flirt.
And like the key to flirting isjust like a sincere compliment
and like holding eye contact.
And then ONAC, there's all theselike, things about flirting.
Okay.
So watch this.
So like value look really goodtoday, right?
(06:30):
That's not flirting.
Yeah.
But you're like valuing reallygood today.
Yeah.
Val (06:33):
OK.
I do.
I do know those basics offlirting.
Cause thank you very
Kat (06:37):
so what you can say any sentence
Val (06:39):
cuz I was trying to think of something clever, but I
Kat (06:41):
it doesn't really
Val (06:42):
oh cat.
I bet you like to see me becompetitive.
Kat (06:45):
Yeah exactly And then don't let it go up at the end.
You keep it nice and low.
Oh yeah You wanna see me becompetitive?
Huh?
Yeah.
See that's all it is.
It's all that.
Listen, we just given that shitout for free people.
Go get your flirt on.
Go flirt with some people.
I'll also flirt with yourfriends It's good for your
friendships Oh my
Val (07:02):
gosh So I was talking about trying to cope yeah.
With pickle ball.
So I ended up, like, I playedthis tournament and I guess I
wasn't tired after.
Yeah.
So I was like, let's stay andplay some more.
And the other people came outand then it's of course.
It's just one more game.
Wait, wait, wait, if you leave,we only have three.
Okay.
Fine.
But then I was
Kat (07:20):
chasing the dopamine high.
Aren't
Val (07:22):
I was like, guys,
Kat (07:23):
Yeah
Val (07:24):
peoples the bottoms of my feet burn and I can't feel my
little toe
Kat (07:30):
Oh no,
Val (07:31):
I've been playing for five hours.
I have to leave.
And then I kind of did the samething the next day.
I know.
I know, but it just, it's sofun.
It feels so good.
and then I went shopping after.
Kat (07:42):
I yeah.
And that's where you got thegreat top.
Val (07:44):
I got the great top, but then I was like, I don't
Kat (07:46):
you do to your body
Val (07:47):
I dunno.
What do people do if they can'twalk back to their car?
I wasn't sure.
See people try to say exercise,there's nothing wrong with it.
Well, you can even abuse thatand, and hurt yourself.
Kat (07:58):
yeah.
That's a real common tale.
Yeah.
Val (08:01):
It's a common town.
Yeah.
I haven't gotten an injury, but,you know, since my illness is
sort of chronic, Ooh, you'regonna feel like you can't walk
Kat (08:08):
So how did it, how did it go getting up this morning?
Val (08:10):
I kind of do this.
Ooh, ow.
Hey, ow.
I take I actually couldn't fallasleep.
Real good.
I had to wait till the ibuprofenkicked in or whatever.
Yeah.
But it's, it's a fun way ofcoping.
Right.
And you talk about getting mydopamine.
It was just so lovely.
I've been shouting out our mayorof pickleball, a lot on this
podcast, but one morning I wentand he's like so Val I'm caught
(08:31):
up on the podcast and,
Kat (08:32):
oh yay.
Val (08:33):
you here for your communal ever vests?
it was so lovely to be greetedthat way.
So the podcast is just comingback in my face, giving me some,
just little gratitude.
So that's, what's been going
Kat (08:47):
I had someone DM me in our, Instagram account saying that
they started calling theirpartner motherfucker and it's so
fun.
I made me so happy.
Oh my God We just Yeah peoplelet's all be a little bit
irreverent.
It's pretty wonderful.
Helps us get through the fuckingday.
Val (09:07):
It really does.
It feels good
Kat (09:09):
well I think, I don't know.
Maybe it began because weweren't allowed to swear once
upon a time.
Like it feels like freedom everytime I say fuck her.
But also it's just such aregular part of my vocabulary
now I don't edit myself, but indeference to my ex-husband's
preferences, I try not to swearto him.
Right.
Cuz he really does not like it.
He feels strongly about it, butwe're talking about some kid
(09:29):
stuff and he and I are doinggood with like being co-parents
right now It's it's going prettywell, but so I can't remember
what we were talking about, butall this, I was like, yeah,
Jesus fucking Christ.
It's just rough right now.
Oh, it's cuz I was feelingreally ill.
I was having like a really roughcouple weeks and so I didn't
realize, and I was too late.
And so like out of all thethings that he would not
appreciate hearing Jesus fucking
Val (09:54):
no, it's not good.
I, something happens inside mybody still when you say it
Kat (09:58):
oh really?
Val (10:00):
and
Kat (10:01):
so you like, fuck and fuck and motherfucker Yeah But you
can't
Val (10:05):
did Jesus do to you?
What did Jesus like?
Kat (10:07):
What, oh yeah What did Jesus do to you?
I think Jesus is probably fine.
Like if Jesus, Jesus and I, wegonna kick it, I'd be like
what's up Jesus.
But anyway I, I love taking hisname in vain so
Val (10:21):
Yeah.
That one
Kat (10:21):
cuz I wasn't allowed to Yeah
Val (10:23):
still is hard for me.
That's sorry.
No, no, no, no, but I just wannasay, in an effort not to censor
you.
Oh, cuz I edit the podcast.
I could edit it out, but I
Kat (10:32):
don't, You don't
Val (10:33):
don't without telling you that's my own internal, there
are no weeds in my heart.
As my husband Don't censor catthat will put weeds in your
heart.
Kat (10:42):
Yeah.
Not without my knowledge.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's so funny.
Val (10:47):
But you know leading into our topic
Kat (10:50):
Yeah.
Val (10:50):
I realize there's something that I've been doing that I
think is coming from our past aswell.
Right.
Because you know the last coupleepisodes we've released, we
talked about resistance andADHD.
We did another ADHD episode andin there I remember listening
back to it and I'm like, wow, Ireally talk a lot about yeah,
maybe I'm just gonna divorce myhusband.
Kat (11:10):
yeah.
yeah, that comes in like today'sthe day
Val (11:15):
I think it's a funny stick.
It's a funny bit that I'm like,oh, well maybe time's up.
Yep.
And I was like, Val, why are youdoing that?
Like, people are gonna thinkyou've like, you're, you're a
little too wild here.
Right.
So I thought I started to justkind of think about it and
reflect on it.
And I was like, you know, Ithink because for so long it was
one of the worst things, right.
(11:35):
It just seems like, that.
And like premarital sex, theworst things you could do
Kat (11:39):
in our old worldview Totally
Val (11:40):
And how even disruptive it is, I mean, to everybody's
lives, like whether you're inthat kind of belief system or
not, but just even if you wereworking for church, how could
you get divorced?
Cuz the woman always gets thrownunder the bus.
They always get the short underthe stick in that situation.
And so how, like that was theworst thing.
And I mean, there were timeswhen I was like, it would just
be better if I weren't alivethan get a divorce.
(12:01):
How terrible is that?
that's how big of a failure itfelt, right?
That inflexibility.
This is not how life is.
Kat (12:07):
And so now you have the freedom of actually I have
autonomy and if I decided to bedone, I could be done.
And you could just like, liveyour life in that shame free.
Val (12:16):
I feel like it's just that reminder, yep.
Hey, if it's done, it's done.
And I think because we have apretty big unsolvable problem in
our relationship, I think Ibrought that up in the ADHD
episode and we thought we wouldtalk about that more today.
Yeah.
Right.
Kat (12:30):
The unsolvable problems,
Val (12:32):
The unsolvable
Kat (12:33):
problems.
Val (12:34):
Should we break to commercial now?
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Kat (12:54):
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Val (12:55):
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Exactly.
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Val?
What happens when there's anunsolvable problem?
Val (13:35):
Oh man.
ah,
Kat (13:40):
well, they show up in our lives in all different kinds of
contexts in ways Right.
So, yeah, interpersonalrelationships maybe our
listeners, you guys haveexperienced this where you and
someone else can't seem toreconcile a particular issue.
Mm-hmm but then, you know, welook at like bigger things in
our culture it zooms out there'sproblems in the world.
Yeah.
You and I talked about chronicillness Yeah.
(14:00):
So what
Val (14:01):
Friendships, family relationships.
Yeah.
What do we do about it?
Well, I'm sort of in thatsituation now.
And I know you've, you've shareda lot.
I was like, well, I guess it'smy turn.
Kat (14:10):
Yeah
Val (14:10):
you've shared a lot.
You've shared a lot of thingsthat are happening in your life,
sort of in real time.
And the podcast, things thatwere not tied up with a bow.
And it just so happens that aswhen we started this podcast, I
had gone through a lot ofpainful things in the recent
past, but was kind of feelinggood.
Kat (14:26):
I know you were like, I'm doing good right now.
Val (14:28):
I'm like should
Kat (14:29):
like, I was crying all the time and you're like, I'm I'm
doing so good.
I'll just hold space for yourshit.
Cat
Val (14:36):
Listeners.
I did not but I did think like,should I be crying more?
Like also, I did come out oflike a, a long period of
sadness.
Right.
how weird to say, like, somethings got resolved during the
pandemic.
Right.
I feel like I kind of had abreakthrough in sort of my
grieving and the trauma aroundinfertility trying to be
(14:58):
pregnant.
And actually in some ways theissue, the unsolvable issue in
our relationship is about
Kat (15:04):
you and your husband,
Val (15:05):
me and my husband is about his travel.
and that even got a reprieveduring the pandemic, of course.
Right.
I got, him home for a while.
Actually it took a pandemic forhim to stop fully and then when
he could travel he still wasn'tgoing as often.
Kat (15:18):
Right And for the listeners who maybe don't know like your
husband's Brazilian and he has awhat international business.
He sounds so fancy Yeah.
well, like
Val (15:30):
he created all this on his own.
Right.
Like it's very smart and verywhat's the word?
Kat (15:35):
like ambitious Oh resource so sure
Val (15:37):
right?
Like he actually created abusiness and actually, this is
part of the whole thing.
It's like he has a foot in each
Kat (15:44):
right
Val (15:45):
And actually he said to me on the phone, something to the
effect of like, I have a greatlife with let me maybe not push
it and like try to have twogreat
Kat (15:54):
Oh oh yeah.
Val (15:55):
Where okay.
Listeners, I'm not gonna be ableto fill you in, on every single
detail.
Cuz what I realized was this hasbeen going on for a decade.
an unsolvable problem in themiddle of that too was well,
some
Kat (16:06):
well because you want him home more cuz your life together
is good and you don't wanna haveto be by yourself living life.
Val (16:12):
Right actually funny enough at the beginning of 2020 I just
kept say I don't, and can't dothis anymore.
I don't want you gone as much.
And I feel like I've done a lotof compromising or the problem
solving, like, okay, I'll takemy practice online, a video even
before the pandemic so I canhave some more flexibility and
travel with you.
And he said, okay, look, give methe year 2020.
Kat (16:36):
little, did we know
Val (16:37):
little, did he know?
Oh, I wish there was one ofthose voiceovers that our
narrators little did he know?
I'm like, all right.
He goes, just gimme this time tolike, get things in place.
So don't have to go as often,blah blah.
And so yeah, I was already atthat place.
Right.
But yeah, I did have a littlebit of a meltdown this weekend
and he's, he told me I need tobe gone for two weeks, you know,
(16:58):
business trying to rebuild thebusiness after he got really hit
by the pandemic.
So, right.
I feel like I'm a veryunderstanding person in general.
Right.
Okay.
I get that.
And accepted that, yeah, he'sfrom another country, so this is
part of it.
But yeah, I had a little bit ofa breakdown this weekend of.
sadness and my sort of dealingswith this problem after about
(17:19):
six days.
Yeah, I'm good.
I have my friends, a pickleball, the community that
communal effervescence, thatbeing connected to something
larger than even just yourfamily or friend
Kat (17:29):
group.
Right right.
Val (17:30):
My work, all these things, but after the sixth day and I
saw the pattern, I mean,probably even six to eight years
ago and shared with him can wecome to an understanding, can we
come to an agreement that aftersix days, this intense sadness
comes over and I'm done like oneweek a month.
Okay.
That's still a
Kat (17:47):
lot.
It is a lot.
It is a lot for
Val (17:49):
It's still a lot.
And he just was unable to
Kat (17:52):
it Yeah
Val (17:53):
which blows my mind, honestly.
Yeah.
But I think I've talked about, Idon't know if it's an ADHD trait
or not, but it just seems thatit's harder to compromise.
Once you get an idea in yourhead, it's like, this is how it
should be.
Right.
Also there's some like freedomstuff and rebel stuff,
Kat (18:08):
and yeah
Val (18:09):
the freedom.
And how do you write the fourtendencies?
You introduced me to that, butthe rebel can't really feel like
they're backed into a corner.
They need choice.
They need a little bit of say onwhen, and their terms.
Kat (18:21):
And I'm sure
Val (18:22):
I mean, which just sounds like being an asshole to me.
Kat (18:26):
I know.
That's so funny.
The need for autonomy for therebel.
Like that's my tendency too.
So we should just quick say thefour tendencies.
You can be an obliger.
You can be a, what are the othertwo, Oh, upholder.
Those are the rule followers.
Oh my God Yeah.
And then there's one
Val (18:40):
bar
Kat (18:40):
Oh my God.
Anyway, the book's good.
The link is in our show notes.
People's
Val (18:44):
Yes Yeah.
It's really helpful to find yourmotivation.
Kat (18:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I thought it was so cool.
Val (18:48):
The questioner that's the
Kat (18:49):
other one.
Oh yeah.
Val (18:50):
The questioner, it has to make sense.
Like if you wanna follow a rule,like it has to make
Kat (18:54):
sense Right You need buy in by asking yeah.
And then the obliger is justgonna follow the rules.
Val (19:00):
Yes.
And they're motivated, if you'retrying to get motivation, you're
doing it for other people.
You have a harder time to do itfor yourself.
Yeah.
Kat (19:06):
I wonder what the overlap is between revels and
neurodiversity, because I'm alsoa revel, but I did all that
masking cuz of like thecultural, being raised fem in
the world and all those otherkinds of things and like the
conservative Christianity nowstuff.
So I did masking as an obligerfor years and then like my
truest self started manifestingmore and more.
And I was like yeah, I can't Ican't do I have to, I need a lot
(19:27):
of
Val (19:28):
Yeah.
I couldn't respect that eventhough right.
I'm different.
Like, but one time his, cousinsaid to me, Val, for Rafi, it's
his way or no way.
Oh.
And that was a long time ago.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
Yes.
But he also comes off as kindlike go with the flow.
Kat (19:44):
He does come off that way.
But now I know more
Val (19:47):
that
Kat (19:47):
I'm like seeing different sides of him.
And
Val (19:49):
it's
Kat (19:50):
oh you are, you're a
Val (19:52):
It's a paradox.
Kat (19:53):
in a Speedo He's a
Val (19:54):
paradox
Kat (19:55):
in a Speedo you're Brazilian husband.
Val (19:57):
Poor guy.
And we're gonna talk aboutmedications and psychedelics
later, but I got to the pointwhere I was like, this
depression would come on for aday or two.
That was like, it was ahopelessness.
Like I like that dark fog.
Am.
I gonna really take some kind ofmedicine just to stay in this
marriage, like this feeling thatgame.
Right.
And and now actually being okayto decide to not be in a
relationship cause it's notworking, but there's so much
(20:18):
good also in our relationship.
Right.
So it's this thing.
And, and, and so anyway, I wasreally upset this weekend I
think I got to the place where Iwas like, yeah, I think I know
the answer now.
Kat (20:32):
Right.
Is the answer polyamory Is thatwhat you decided an open
marriage really?
you need more people toco-regulate with talk about like
Val (20:45):
creative problem solving.
Kat (20:48):
That's a good creative Wait, you guys, Val is not
making eye contact with me.
Val (20:53):
so stupid.
Kat (20:56):
I just love to on you, you like, you're like, hang with me
for a bit and you're like, oh,I'm not gonna look you though.
Val (21:02):
pushing me over the
Kat (21:03):
I'm not looking I'm not looking at you.
Val (21:09):
But he has made promises to me before I've tried.
even where I was like, okay, whycan't you compromise for seven
days?
Right?
All right, knowing that he lovesmoney.
I'm like, Hey look.
cuz he also would book ticketsand then tell me the wrong day
he was coming home because hewas afraid.
And so I'm like you're cominghome tomorrow.
Right.
And then at the last moment he'slike actually no,
Kat (21:29):
that's some weird ass I know
Val (21:31):
yeah I mean, when I heard that people with ADHD tend to
lie more, right?
Like not everyone obviously is ablank
Kat (21:38):
No not everyone, but yeah.
Like my kid who is ADHD, thatfucking kid lies and I don't
know why I don't lie, but I getdefensive.
Like when people tease me, likeI'm lying.
I'm like Uhuh, cuz I'm like, itis I don't know, just a core
value of mine that I'm like, Iam very truthful.
Val (21:54):
Yes.
Kat (21:55):
Yeah
Val (21:55):
So, so when we went to therapy, I think I brought this
up, like, why are you lying?
Or he didn't wanna tell me stuffRight.
And so, the therapist actuallyasked me, like, I was the one
with the problem.
why is truthfulness so importantto you?
And it was a Christian therapistand we're still going to church.
And I just
Kat (22:13):
whoa,
Val (22:14):
I'm like, I dunno, it's the basics of Christianity.
And, and so I, I was like, look,
Kat (22:20):
yeah,
Val (22:21):
lying will always make it worse, but I'm afraid to tell
you the truth of how I fucked upor whatever.
Right.
Lying will always make it
Kat (22:27):
worse.
In my mind.
Lying is an interruption tointimacy.
You can't fully know me if I'mtelling you lies.
Right.
Val (22:33):
Why are you trying to preach right now?
Yes, of course.
yes.
It, it stops trust.
Yeah.
And safety.
Trust and safety.
So when he tells me this time,babe, no more two week trips I'm
committed to you and our lifehere.
And I was like, well, I hearyou, but what happens if you
don't?
So before, when he would tell methat he wasn't gonna gone as
(22:55):
long, I'm like, look, what if Ijust find you for every day,
you're gone over seven days, Iget to put money in my like home
decor, budget or something.
Right.
Yeah.
Ooh,
Kat (23:05):
Did it?
I
Val (23:06):
I think he felt like
Kat (23:07):
he was the revel in him
Val (23:08):
Yeah.
And then I was like,
Kat (23:09):
like
Val (23:10):
ah, okay.
Forget it.
Kat (23:11):
he like,
Val (23:12):
anyway, again, it's my money too.
It's not like it's his money,but I try to even tried to like
put like a tax, a tariff.
You wanna be gone longer.
Fine.
It's gonna cost you
Kat (23:23):
Look at all this creative problem solving.
You're attacking this unsolvableproblem with all this.
Creativity's so impressive
Val (23:29):
So this time I said, well, what happens?
And he's like, look.
You know how much I love money.
You could take all our assetsand leave me I was like, well,
I'll do that anyway.
No, no, just kidding.
Kat (23:42):
OK.
he's
Val (23:44):
so upset that I told him we wouldn't be like, back in the
day, I was like, Facebookfriends.
If we ever got divorced, I'mlike, fuck you.
Fuck.
No, if we're getting divorced,
Kat (23:51):
totally.
Val (23:52):
I, I reserved the right to change my mind, but he thinks
that's hilarious and he can'tunderstand it.
Why can't we be friends afterI'm like, because we couldn't be
friends inside of a marriage, sofuck you.
Go have a fucking great life.
I don't know.
That's how I feel
Kat (24:06):
that's funny.
Val (24:08):
reserve the right to totally change
Kat (24:09):
that Yeah.
Well okay.
So my ex-husband, I was like,why can't we be friends?
Like, I would love to know like,like his dating adventures.
Like, I'd be like down for allthat shit.
I'd be like his biggest Butlike, he does at all.
Val (24:21):
yeah
Kat (24:22):
no, thank you.
Nah.
And I was like okay.
Val (24:26):
So I sort of sent you a polo, just, you know, well, I
had been crying, but I had thisknowing and I told you it's
weird, cuz we've been talkingabout those knowings that I'm
like cap.
I believe him.
And I actually think that he isgoing to change this knowing
inside of me I have this knowingthat I believe him and I, the
way he's talking differently,like, and bringing it up, cuz of
(24:48):
course, right.
That avoidant attachment it'slike, let's not talk about it.
And when I would want to sharewhat I was feeling, he would try
to change the subject.
I'm like, you gotta leave roomfor me to say what I need to say
to you.
He's listening.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
You're right.
apologized, which we know thatthat's difficult for him.
Yeah.
I'm sorry for hurting you.
(25:08):
Sorry for causing you pain.
And we were able to talk aboutit in a different way and I
really do think, right.
And of course I've done a lot ofmy own work that this is a lot
about him.
Right.
But of course it could make mequestion does he really love me
Kat (25:21):
Of course Yeah
Val (25:22):
have so much evidence that he does.
Right.
And that intuitive feeling oflike, this is real, which we've
talked about that on pastepisodes too, But I, like, I
have so much evidence to thecontrary, but it's like, well,
then what's going on?
And I think, poor RAI, I haven'tshared this yet on the podcast,
but like he was orphaned beforehe was like in high school.
Right.
Both of his parents and he wassort of.
(25:43):
live with his grandma.
And his uncle and just neverreally having a So I'm sure
there's some deep stuff that hehasn't connected to yet.
But I think the, the deepsadness for me too, was like, I
think I know that if he can'tfor whatever reason, and I've
told him if this is the life, ifthat really is what you need to
(26:05):
do, cuz he also doesn't wannamove to Brazil full time.
Cuz sometimes I'm like, wellVal, like be reasonable.
This man is from another countryhe's living here in your
country.
I don't really think I want tobe an expat in another country.
I love traveling, and he doesn'twanna live there full time
either.
So it really is this cake andeat it
Kat (26:22):
too.
Right.
Yeah.
And you know, as you've talkedabout like owning your shit and
all this, I've seen you like doall this work with boundaries
and articulating what your needsare and like getting more I
mean, forceful is the wordthat's coming to mind, but just
more like self-assertive right.
it's neat to see how, then wehave these opportunities to look
for our own growth in it, youknow, again, when we're like
(26:44):
we're dealing with conflict,conflict has this potential
opportunity for both parties.
Val (26:49):
Yes.
And I think that just sheddingsome of the stuff I use, I think
it just becomes clear if thatmakes sense.
What I need, like where my hardboundaries are or being okay
with cuz I think there can be astruggle when you're a people
pleaser and I was gonna saytrauma too.
Right.
Where you doubt yourself a lot.
(27:10):
And so I think maybe I'vedoubted myself.
But I think as it became clear,I think I was grieving cuz I was
doing that tired, sad, cry,
Kat (27:20):
right this week Yeah
Val (27:22):
And I think it was the grieving of oh, but I think I
know what I, what I'll have todo if he really can't do it.
Oh, does that make
Kat (27:29):
makes sense?
Yeah.
Like if he can't show up for youand like be home as much as
you're gonna need him to behome, then what, what you will
have to do in order some
Val (27:40):
Yeah.
And you gave me great languagefor it too, where you said, well
sure.
Your co-regulation partner islike gone for like more than 25%
of the time.
cuz I always think well how dopeople that, their partners are
always traveling., how come isthis hard for me?
And it also,
Kat (27:55):
for
Val (27:56):
and it doesn't matter.
Like I don't have to compare Ireally am okay with centering
myself and like, this is what Ineed.
what does it
Kat (28:04):
makeup their needs are gonna be different, but you're
allowed to have your needs, knowwhat they are and communicate
them to the people in Yeah,
Val (28:10):
Yeah.
But I think it goes about likeself care.
Yeah.
And what you
Kat (28:16):
Right.
Val (28:16):
And are you okay if I read this little poem I found for the
end, but I think part of mysadness this week is very well
explained
Kat (28:25):
this.
Okay.
Val (28:26):
Because before self love becomes a liberation, it is
first a burden.
Well, there's the anger at whotreated you poorly when you
didn't know how to ask forbetter the anger at yourself for
what you've allowed.
There's the grief for lost time.
There's the strangling necessityto push people, things, ideas
out because there's no room forthem.
(28:48):
There's the loneliness andisolation that accompanies the
growth of self there's.
The new boundary lines, the newrange of the word.
No, the opening of eyes thatwould rather be.
And the terrifying realizationthat love isn't synonymous with
joy, it's synonymous with growthAnd growth isn't bliss.
(29:10):
It never was.
It was a lie that said lovewould be white teeth smiles on
beaches.
The pinnacle of self love is notendless It is a heartbreaking
process of undoing the life,your unloved self built brick by
unworthy And these words are byJamie vain.
Kat (29:33):
Wow.
That's powerful I mean, youlistening, you read that and
this conversation of course,makes me think about my own
marriage and divorce, you know?
Yeah And I had to do a lot ofthe grieving before, before we
were even divorced or separated.
but you know, in my story, we,couldn't solve a problem because
it was I was no longer aChristian and I had tried so
hard to make sure that I stayeda Christian because I
(29:56):
intuitively knew that if Ididn't continue to share the
same faith as my former spouse,then that was it.
And yeah, so.
that was the strangest thing torealize that I sort of knew this
really early.
I had had this, my dad had diedwhen I was six weeks to dating.
(30:23):
with me to Ohio where I grew upand, the funeral with me and was
like, it felt so good to havehis love And then the grief
after And he was like thistangible human that it was a
manifestation of love becauseprior to dating him you know, my
(30:44):
whole support was like myfriendships.
Yes.
But I had this relationship withJesus Christ where he was, you
know, this was the culture toldus, Jesus Christ was my best
friend and was my husband andwas God.
And you know, all these things
Val (30:57):
be enough.
Mm-hmm
Kat (30:58):
But then I had like a physical person that loved me
and like would hold me and likeyou know, our friendships back
then, you know, it's sodifferent.
I discovered it was so differentthan being in a intimate
relationship because I wasthinking about like, when you're
kissing someone or you're justlaying in bed, your faces are
so, so close.
Right.
You don't usually get that closewith your like platonic
friendships, right.
Especially not in the worldwhere we came but then that
amount of grief ended up beingkind of a catalyst for some of
(31:22):
my spiritual evolution and.
I remember going to therapyright after we got married,
because I was like, holy shit.
I could feel the groundunderneath me.
Mm-hmm changing tremendously.
And I was like, I just thing.
I'd always wanted Mm.
Cause I was like, in ourworldview, like we both got
(31:42):
married sort of late in ourworldview, you know, like I was
31.
And, and so I'd finally gottenthis thing and you know, I
absolutely was in love with my,my husband at the time.
And so I had to like find aChristian therapist so I could
like stay a Christian.
Yeah.
And like work through all thisbut it's interesting.
The grief and then poem, likethe grief of the things that.
(32:04):
I had to like wrestle with thefact that, I chose a
relationship over my authenticpath, you know, and then I had
wanted to be a parent too.
And so we ended up having kidsright away.
And so then all of my owndevelopment got sort of put on
pause as I was, you know,parenting and, you know, it's a
whole series of events and awhole bunch of things where I, I
(32:24):
was choosing a life that wasn'tactually, as in line with who I
really, really am.
There was a lot of grief aroundthat.
And then, you know, I had causedharm because I had agreed to all
these things And then when Istarted to see that, I just
couldn't keep participating init the way that, he had imagined
you know, it devastated him.
Right That's right.
And so I, in, in deciding to endour marriage, I was like home to
(32:48):
myself.
And then right after wearticulated that, you know, our
relationship was over.
I was like, oh, I'm gay.
oh, of course I am.
Duh.
You know, a lot of people hearthe timeline and they assume I,
I find out I'm gay and I end themarriage, but that that's not
actually what happened.
I just realized I wasn't aChristian and I I was noticing
that I, I had agreed to the lifethat he wanted because.
(33:10):
I taught to do that, Val.
Yeah.
You know, we're taught to eraseourselves and to like, you know,
the whole codependency thing.
Right.
And it's not like he didn't makesacrifices too.
And I honestly, like, I don'thave anything negative to He's
like a good person, know, he'sgot some rigidity in his
thinking and he's, you know he'sreally changed averse.
He's got some things that madeit hard for us, you know?
(33:32):
And this became the, theunsolvable problem.
Val (33:36):
Which is
Kat (33:38):
felt like I had promised him a Christian life together
and a Christian family.
Yeah.
And I couldn't keep to promise.
And so in his mind he said itwas really interesting, but he
said, it feels like.
Adultery to But like that's howbetrayal, betrayal
Val (33:55):
Yeah.
Betrayal
Kat (33:56):
because I, I could no longer share his faith.
don't have control over that.
You know?
And that was such a strange, itwas really strange to be in a
truly unsolvable where I was.
you want me to keep denyingmyself and that feels so bad,
right?
Yeah.
And then again, you got therebel thing.
I was just starting to like,come into myself in a way where
(34:19):
I was clear about who I am andwhat I needed and what resonated
with me.
And so I was noticing like, Ididn't have to be on
antidepressants anymore.
I was having of depressionbecause I was finally like, oh,
this Right?
And then for that to notresonate with the person that
picked to spend their life withme was incredibly fucking
(34:40):
painful.
Like I wanted him to, be likeyay, look at how happy you are
now.
Look at all this growth in your
Val (34:48):
But, but that worldview tells you that that's the most
important thing and thateverything else really is
nothing.
Kat (34:55):
And what he needs is stability.
And he needs someone that'sgonna be his like partner and
working towards the goals thatfeel resonant to him.
And his goals didn't resonatewith me And It was strange It
was like stuff about likewhether or not we save for the
kids' college.
We don't even know if college isgonna be a thing when our kids,
like, you know, like the wholeeverything felt.
And so anyway yeah, he wanted usto be making sacrifices that
(35:19):
felt like they were biggersacrifices to me.
Like I just didn't have enoughsupport at home.
Yeah.
And he was like, we gotta savemoney for their college.
And I was like, I'm depressedall the time.
Being home alone with thesechildren, could we maybe like
invest in me.
Right.
And so anyway Yeah.
So sometimes the unsolvableproblem.
Means you walk away.
Yeah And, and in my story, Idid.
(35:40):
And so now there's, there's alot more unknowns in my life.
It's interesting because even asI explore like my own health
issues and sometimes those feellike unsolvable problems right
Yeah oh I left a lot of securityin order to
Val (35:54):
like Mm-hmm you
Kat (35:57):
sense of you know, and that's just a fascinating trade
off, you know?
Val (36:02):
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And for me the poem, it mightseem, it felt a little maybe
extreme my circumstances, but Idefinitely that first I have to
choose what feels right for me.
Yeah.
It was that sadness sooner
Kat (36:18):
Mm Not
Val (36:19):
before, or it talks about grief of time lost.
Why didn't I come to thisconclusion earlier?
Yeah.
Or that time that you speak uplouder for like, too much.
This shouldn't happen.
So
Kat (36:33):
well I think about that too, the whole, like being like
how, how did I not have accessto that?
And, you know, and I can, seelike, it's the
Val (36:40):
Sure, sure.
Kat (36:42):
And then, but it helps if we're like, oh, time is a, a
construct it's okay This is alittle bit vulnerable to share,
I think.
But like I was thinking about,as soon as we were all
vaccinated I was like, I need todate, I'm gonna date everybody.
Right.
So I went from being.
only having one partner is myhusband.
And then like, I'm gonna do allthe things.
Right.
(37:02):
And so I, I Googled like, what'sthe average sexual partners that
a human being has and I'm reallyproud of, cause I already passed
it.
And so like yes, but it feltlike a, freedom thing of like,
fuck you purity culture.
Oh
Val (37:20):
yeah, that time you lost.
Okay, good.
So you've caught up, you'vecaught up in the time construct
the sexual time construct.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Okay.
I dunno how I'm gonna pivot outof that back to unsolvable
problems.
But before we wrap up, though, Iwanna talk about the unsolvable
problems.
And I think in one of theearlier episodes, I talk about
the Gottman's who did a lot ofresearch about relationships.
(37:40):
And they say that around twothirds, almost 70% of problems
in a relationship areunsolvable.
Kat (37:47):
That is a lot.
Val (37:48):
And I think there is this fun game of is it glass, half
empty or full?
Like, does that encourage you?
Or does that, scare you?
And until be honest, when Ishare that with people, a lot of
them are encouraged oh, okay.
Like this is actually okay, thatthere's unsolvable problems.
And then it's you're gettingmore proficient in managing
them.
Kat (38:04):
Right.
Val (38:05):
Getting better at solving the solvable problems in the
relationship.
Right.
The got ones were the first onesthat I heard say like that they
think people compromise too muchin a relationship that's
fascinating.
And that kinda humbled me, cuz Iprobably would've said Hey guys,
compromise more.
Right.
And I think because I am aperson that loves collaboration.
Yeah.
Can we can we get to like aplace where we're like, oh,
(38:26):
okay.
Yeah, we can all agree withthat.
But actually they're saying thatyou gotta get to the core, the
core of what you want, whatmakes you feel alive, who you
are, what you need that youshould not compromise on.
And to be honest, it was a goodlesson for me as well.
Because if Rav would've followedmy daily regimen of how many
days he could be gone, would hiscompany have gotten off the
ground and been as successful asit is.
(38:48):
And that was a part of him andhis journey and what he needed
to do.
And so I think that that was agood lesson for me too, of you
can't always compromise your wayout of it.
Sometimes it is that okay, ifthis is what you need to do, am
I still in?
Yeah.
Can I sacrifice for this time?
Or how do we manage
Kat (39:03):
this?
I love the word manage asopposed to solve.
Yeah.
Because again, if we're sayingit's okay, sometimes these are
unsolvable like You know, I talkabout now a lot in my
interpersonal relationshipsplease center yourself you send
to yourself and you justcommunicate that clearly to me
and I'm gonna do the same.
And then we'll see how weprogress.
Right.
Right.
Because my, in my marriage,neither one of us are really
doing a great job of that.
(39:24):
Right.
And so then you find you'restill gonna find conflict Yeah
Two people centering themselves.
You're like, okay So how do wemanage
Val (39:31):
this?
Yep Yeah.
Well, and I just had this well,because inside of strict,
Christianity divorce is notokay.
Right.
And so how can you tell peopleto send to themselves, you have
to have all these other rulessubmit to this one and like
absolutely right.
So you have to have all theseother rules to kind of make it
work.
Ah, so, here's two things that,come straight from the Gottman's
that I love to use with coupleswhen they get into gridlock,
(39:52):
they call it gridlock, which Ithink is a great sort of analogy
for that.
Right?
Like you've used all your tools.
This just doesn't seem like wecan solve it is to really look
for dreams within conflict.
Kat (40:03):
Right.
What's underneath whatever the
Val (40:07):
and I always, tell clients, okay, let's go a level beneath.
What could be underneath this?
I can give a great example inour lives.
intermingled in with thetraveling was, my desire to
start a family.
The dream for him was that heneeded to self actualize.
He needed to feel like he was asuccess.
Right.
He needed to be good atsomething.
Right.
And, he wanted to be financiallysecure before he brought a child
(40:28):
into this world.
That was his dream within thatconflict.
Yeah.
And then mine was that my familyof origins were sort of small
and there was some isolation andI wanted more joy.
I wanted more communaleffervescents
Kat (40:42):
Yes
Val (40:44):
And so I'm like, you know what?
I'm gonna do that for myself.
I'm gonna make a big family.
Kat (40:48):
Mm-hmm
Val (40:48):
And there won't be that loneliness.
there'll be so much communallife event.
That feels so good.
And so he was stopping me fromdoing that and from creating my
own family.
Right.
and so to be able to connect inan emotional way to the dreams
that are inside your partners,their resistance, we talked
about resistance last time.
Right.
And then just really knowingwhat's important to them and
being able to connect on anemotional level about things can
(41:11):
be really helpful.
Kat (41:12):
Yeah.
Val (41:14):
And then, So how do we manage this?
The exercise is to, to make twocircles, one inside each other.
And what you wanna do is findthe nucleus, that small circle
on the inside and right inthere, the things that are,
non-negotiables the things thatare really that core part of
yourself, who you are, what youwant, what your values are and
(41:35):
make that as small as you can.
What really are, think about it.
If you're getting value out ofyour relationship, like, I
always say like, I'd like tokeep this going like this, my
relationship is less of reallyamazing parts to it.
Right.
So with that in mind, with thegreater goal in mind, like how
small can you make that circle?
Like, what is really what arenice to haves?
Yeah.
(41:55):
And what are the things that youcan compromise So those things
go in the outer circle.
Kat (41:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
make sense?
Yeah, it does.
Now.
I just wanna understand why doyou want to make the little
circle as small as possible?
Val (42:08):
Well, I figured you would, you would not like that.
Kat (42:11):
I'm like all the freedom, all the freedom
Val (42:15):
well, I think it is a great exercise
Kat (42:17):
maybe it's about distilling it down to its most essential
Val (42:21):
you.
Distilling it down.
Does that sound better thanmaking
Kat (42:24):
audience
Val (42:24):
Yeah.
Okay.
Rebel.
Oh fuck you.
Kat (42:26):
I know.
I'm like can we like, tweak thelanguage here so I can get
Val (42:31):
well, and actually that was probably the language I just
came up in the moment.
So yes.
Distill it down.
Thank you very much to itsessence.
Yeah.
Right.
Is this really a non-negotiableright, right.
So yes, maybe the idea isn't tomake it as small as possible,
but distill it down to thethings that you're willing to
walk away because you can't getthese things.
Kat (42:49):
Another, I mean, we talk about core values So that that's
just know, articulating again,the process of know the myself,
right?
Yeah And unfortunately like,even though I was already 30,
because of the worldview we werein, I was restricted from
knowing as well as I make alifelong commitment
Val (43:08):
I think you did get to a very unsolvable problem.
Yeah.
Right.
That was very unsolvable.
I think one of you would reallyhave to change your core values.
Kat (43:17):
Right.
Val (43:17):
And you know, I was telling you about a great example about
this couple who was fightingover money and to one money
meant security.
Right.
And so he really wanted to save.
And the other partner had thisdream of a family cabin, buying
a second home.
Right.
And they were really fightingover like, well, that seems
frivolous.
We should be investing blah,blah, blah.
(43:38):
Right.
And so they were reallygridlocked into like what to do
with their money.
Right.
And they looked at dreams withinconflict, found that the one
partner money really meantsecurity.
And there was some things thathappened in, in their family,
you know wanting to make surethey were stable and you know,
that sort of a thing.
And for the other partner, therewere these dreams about family
time and how they wanted to livetheir life.
Kat (44:00):
Right.
Val (44:00):
I think it's a really good example of how they did the core
circle exercise, where for thepartner that wanted the cabin,
it was like the idea of a cabin.
Yeah.
In the woods was in the middle.
I really want that.
And we have the funds to do it.
Yeah.
So the other things that were onthe side were like, well, maybe
it doesn't have to be as big asI thought mm-hmm
Kat (44:20):
Mm since
Val (44:21):
my partner is really concerned about saving money and
that's a value of theirs.
Right, right, right.
Or maybe it doesn't have to bethis timeline that I thought
like, I could wait.
Yeah.
Right.
So that can be really helpful tosort of manage.
And I think then there is somesoothing that goes on.
You go to your coping skills.
I know that sometimes when Iagree to like a trip and I'm
(44:42):
like on day three, I'm like, youagreed to this.
Right.
Like you're, you're still in thewindow.
You're okay.
Like, go go play some more.
Pickable you come to manage Andthen we were talking too about
even some creative solutionsthat, are there different ways
to solve the problems that wehave that feel insolvable?
Kat (45:00):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, we don't know allthe answers obviously, but I
think the idea that like, I'mkind of taking away from this,
this whole thing is thatindividual growth can be such a
big piece of All of theinterpersonal stuff that's
happening.
Right.
And so like, we own as much aswe can for ourselves knowing
(45:21):
yourself and distilling your,essence of this is what I
absolutely need to have.
Yeah.
For me.
And then, you know, finding thatin the, the humans in our lives
and how to actualize that asbest we can.
Yeah.
So I really love that.
We keep coming back to you ownwhat's, yours and they get to
own what's theirs.
And then you're not saying youare wrong.
I'm right.
Like that feels like such animportant piece of it you are
(45:41):
allowed to be different yourcore values are allowed to be
different than mine Yeah Right.
And that doesn't make you wrong.
And so if we want to maintain anintimate level of relationship
We have to then find creativeways to manage, maybe solve,
maybe not solve.
Yeah But creativity it suddenly,it gets us out of that stuck
(46:02):
feeling, right?
Yeah.
It's funny, cuz you're like, Iplayed all the pick ball and
then I was like, am now I'mgonna spend some fucking money.
You're finding creative ways tolike get some dopamine because
your co-regulation partner isstill overseas.
Yeah.
You know And so you're beingcreative and you're managing in
the midst of something, youknow?
And then you're still having toreconcile well, but he's still
(46:22):
is gonna have to like meet me alittle closer to this circle
because even though I've got allmy creativity in the mix.
You know, it's still causingharm, right Yeah.
Yeah
Val (46:31):
And just changing my mind a little bit again, not that he's
wrong.
It does seem a little wild.
I gotta admit to you friends itseems out of the box, like who
lives like this?
Right.
I don't know if it got into ourepisode about ADHD, but you
know, when you're living withsomeone who's neurodiverse or
from a different culture thanyou are, or just, we tend to
like the yin and the yang, wetend to gravitate towards people
(46:52):
that are very different than us.
And then we spend the next,however many years trying to
figure out how to manage it.
The way for your relationship tolast is to make sure that you're
not thinking that you're right.
I think I said that in the ADHDepisode if you want to continue
your relationship and have itthrive.
the neurotypical person, can'tbe like, oh, my way is right.
(47:12):
And they're wrong.
They have to fix it.
Totally.
It's different.
Yeah.
And, and then how do we manageit,
Kat (47:17):
right?
Yeah, absolutely.
And we manage it.
We manage our lives.
by like centering pleasure andlike learning and growing and
being willing to evolve and
Val (47:27):
Yes.
Oh, we, I was laughing.
Were you talking about ourrelationship that we manage our
differences?
Kat (47:33):
Well, yeah, we do.
We do have to it too.
I don't
Val (47:36):
that's what I was laughing
Kat (47:37):
at.
you.
Val (47:38):
I did say, fuck you cat this
Kat (47:40):
morning.
Val (47:42):
but it's all working out fine.
So see, not wrong, but
Kat (47:46):
different.
Do you think that you and I arevery different?
do.
I think we have a lot of overlapand
Val (47:53):
We do.
We do.
That's why it's so funny, but weare very different.
But I love you so much.
Aww.
I love our podcast.
I love our time together.
I love all of our friends slashlisteners.
And I think that we've talked alot about all of our three
Kat (48:10):
questions we sure did.
Good job.
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
(00:34):
Oh, here we are again, myfriend.
Kat (00:37):
hello, Val.
Val (00:38):
How are you doing
Kat (00:39):
for today?
Oh I love that.
We open all of our episodes.
Giggling.
Val (00:43):
I do like it.
I dunno if anyone else likes it,
Kat (00:45):
we like it.
It's good for us.
Oh, friends.
We just like each other andVal's so gorgeous right now.
People I made I took a wholebunch of pictures and then Val
was like, I might need to takethis into my own hands.
Yes.
Val (00:58):
Yes.
Kat (00:59):
yes.
Val (00:59):
Self love
Kat (01:05):
yay
Val (01:05):
right.
But I am wearing this beautifulshirt I got, my little shopping
trip yesterday, and I told youthat I was mad at my husband for
being gone so long.
So I was like, he's like, what'syour plan for today's sugar?
And I was like, I'm going out tospend your money.
Asshole.
Kat (01:22):
cause he hasn't gone a long fucking time.
Val (01:24):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
We're gonna talk about that alittle more, but I was like,
yeah, I'm just going to go spendyour money.
And just so that, you know, it'sjust really etched into your
brain.
It's not a good idea to becaught this
Kat (01:36):
I know you told me that normally you guys talk about
your money as your guys' money,like your money together,
collectively and that whenyou're mad at him, you're like,
I'm gonna spend your money
Val (01:44):
Exactly, exactly.
Cuz it's our money.
Like, like we have one account,but I, yeah, exactly.
It feels good to be like I'mspending your money.
Cause I know how much it hurtshim.
It hurts him to part with hismoney.
When, when when we were youngerwe would go and, and this
barista would always be like,Hey, where's Rafi.
I'm like Paul, he's out makingmy money.
(02:08):
so I loved saying that where'sRafi, he's out making my money.
Kat (02:13):
Oh that's awesome.
Val (02:13):
then I realized it's our money.
but I was like, babe, you knowthat I could really fuck you up.
I remind every once in a while Iwant him to be a little scared.
I feel like that's healthy,isn't it?
No, is that, but I'm like, youknow, I could just take all of
our money and you would neverknow
Kat (02:35):
Could, could.
Val (02:36):
and actually my grandma is so funny.
Right.
She's like OG, I mean, don'tever joke with her that our
family was ever in the Italianmob from New York.
I don't think that they were,yeah.
Wink, wink.
I mean, I actually don't thinkthey were, but like, don't joke
with her about that, but she's alittle bit gangster.
She's like.
Take it from me.
Just hide a little bit of yourmoney from Rafi.
(02:58):
Just a little, just a little onthe side.
Every woman needs a littlemoney.
Her husband doesn't knowanything about now.
I mean, granted, she was born inthe twenties and women were
actually not allowed to havetheir own bank
Kat (03:07):
I know So,
Val (03:08):
right.
But so RAI hates to hear that,cuz he thinks he's got my
grandmother wrapped around hislittle finger, but she doesn't
trust him.
Kat (03:17):
that's
Val (03:18):
he's a trauma.
She says he's a cha yeah.
But she really likes that heloves his money and saves his
money.
If I know that Rafi, he saveshis money
Kat (03:30):
Oh my gosh he does, Oh, these are good grandma stories.
Val (03:32):
Oh, oh man.
Well, I haven't even broken outthe, the grandma stories.
There's some pretty amazingones, but I know how, how much
it hurts my husband's apart withhis money.
So, I mean, I bought a shirt atfull price,
Kat (03:43):
Yes you
Val (03:44):
wild as I got and I bought a lipstick with credit.
And then he was like, no, no,no, no, babe.
Don't do it.
Don't do it.
It will just grow weeds insideyour beautiful heart.
You're a good woman.
You're a good woman.
I'm like, yes, I am.
So stop fucking around.
Kat (03:58):
I know.
And so like your act ofrebellion is to buy one gorgeous
shirt that looks amazing on youat full price one
Val (04:05):
just one.
Kat (04:07):
it was such a good investment.
Cuz you got all that greatdopamine.
You got to be a little bitrebellious and just sort of like
exercise your autonomy cuz he'sgone at work for work way too
long Yeah And so yeah I thinkthat was, those are good choices
you made Val.
Val (04:21):
I think I did.
And then he had like some goodmeetings at work and if you've
been around for a while that Iget full permission from him to
share about our lives.
I get consent.
So don't worry about him.
But I said, you know, I'm gonnatalk about our relationship on
look podcast today.
Kat (04:33):
He's been warned He's been well
Val (04:35):
oh man, don't do it.
Don't do it.
I'm gonna get the haters.
Kat (04:38):
He's always making up haters
Val (04:40):
he's
Kat (04:41):
that motherfucker doesn't know what haters are.
Val (04:44):
He's worried about the haters.
No, no.
And then he's like, babe, I hadsuch good.
I have such good meetings.
I'm going to fill your breastswith cash.
Kat (04:53):
My God.
Val (04:58):
I said you know, I'm saying that on the podcast.
No, no, don't do it.
Don't do it.
They're gonna think it's a poor,no podcast.
I said they probably already do.
It's all right.
You're cat's showing you up.
It's all good.
Kat (05:10):
Oh my
Val (05:11):
God.
But that's how much he lovescash.
So, I mean, yeah, well
Kat (05:14):
sounds pretty kinky to me.
Val (05:16):
So no, So the other, the other way I've been trying to
cope while he's gone is playingpickleball.
Oh yeah.
Got second place and a little,little round
Kat (05:26):
I didn't know you were doing
Val (05:27):
round Robin tournament.
It's like you change partnerswith every game.
So it's not, not like the othertournaments, but yeah, it was,
it was fun.
There was a little, I
Kat (05:35):
place though
Val (05:36):
Yeah.
competitive.
I am actually, it, it is.
I don't know if it's always sogood, but
Kat (05:42):
always noticeable.
Like from our conversations,like people who listen to the
podcast, they probably have noidea.
I barely see this competitiveside of you.
Yeah.
I like hearing
Val (05:50):
remember.
Kat (05:50):
though.
Val (05:53):
you like that?
Don't you got, let me tell youhow see.
I can't do it.
I was about to try to dosomething sexy with competition
and I was like, wow, I don'tknow what I'm doing.
I
Kat (06:04):
you lost your nerve.
Val (06:05):
I didn't know what to say.
Kat (06:09):
okay.
So this is funny You would come,I have friends in my circle of
friends.
I can't remember exactly how itcame up, but someone's talking
about flirting.
I'm always talking aboutflirting and I'm like, I'm like
such a good flirt.
And like the key to flirting isjust like a sincere compliment
and like holding eye contact.
And then ONAC, there's all theselike, things about flirting.
Okay.
So watch this.
So like value look really goodtoday, right?
(06:30):
That's not flirting.
Yeah.
But you're like valuing reallygood today.
Yeah.
Val (06:33):
OK.
I do.
I do know those basics offlirting.
Cause thank you very
Kat (06:37):
so what you can say any sentence
Val (06:39):
cuz I was trying to think of something clever, but I
Kat (06:41):
it doesn't really
Val (06:42):
oh cat.
I bet you like to see me becompetitive.
Kat (06:45):
Yeah exactly And then don't let it go up at the end.
You keep it nice and low.
Oh yeah You wanna see me becompetitive?
Huh?
Yeah.
See that's all it is.
It's all that.
Listen, we just given that shitout for free people.
Go get your flirt on.
Go flirt with some people.
I'll also flirt with yourfriends It's good for your
friendships Oh my
Val (07:02):
gosh So I was talking about trying to cope yeah.
With pickle ball.
So I ended up, like, I playedthis tournament and I guess I
wasn't tired after.
Yeah.
So I was like, let's stay andplay some more.
And the other people came outand then it's of course.
It's just one more game.
Wait, wait, wait, if you leave,we only have three.
Okay.
Fine.
But then I was
Kat (07:20):
chasing the dopamine high.
Aren't
Val (07:22):
I was like, guys,
Kat (07:23):
Yeah
Val (07:24):
peoples the bottoms of my feet burn and I can't feel my
little toe
Kat (07:30):
Oh no,
Val (07:31):
I've been playing for five hours.
I have to leave.
And then I kind of did the samething the next day.
I know.
I know, but it just, it's sofun.
It feels so good.
and then I went shopping after.
Kat (07:42):
I yeah.
And that's where you got thegreat top.
Val (07:44):
I got the great top, but then I was like, I don't
Kat (07:46):
you do to your body
Val (07:47):
I dunno.
What do people do if they can'twalk back to their car?
I wasn't sure.
See people try to say exercise,there's nothing wrong with it.
Well, you can even abuse thatand, and hurt yourself.
Kat (07:58):
yeah.
That's a real common tale.
Yeah.
Val (08:01):
It's a common town.
Yeah.
I haven't gotten an injury, but,you know, since my illness is
sort of chronic, Ooh, you'regonna feel like you can't walk
Kat (08:08):
So how did it, how did it go getting up this morning?
Val (08:10):
I kind of do this.
Ooh, ow.
Hey, ow.
I take I actually couldn't fallasleep.
Real good.
I had to wait till the ibuprofenkicked in or whatever.
Yeah.
But it's, it's a fun way ofcoping.
Right.
And you talk about getting mydopamine.
It was just so lovely.
I've been shouting out our mayorof pickleball, a lot on this
podcast, but one morning I wentand he's like so Val I'm caught
(08:31):
up on the podcast and,
Kat (08:32):
oh yay.
Val (08:33):
you here for your communal ever vests?
it was so lovely to be greetedthat way.
So the podcast is just comingback in my face, giving me some,
just little gratitude.
So that's, what's been going
Kat (08:47):
I had someone DM me in our, Instagram account saying that
they started calling theirpartner motherfucker and it's so
fun.
I made me so happy.
Oh my God We just Yeah peoplelet's all be a little bit
irreverent.
It's pretty wonderful.
Helps us get through the fuckingday.
Val (09:07):
It really does.
It feels good
Kat (09:09):
well I think, I don't know.
Maybe it began because weweren't allowed to swear once
upon a time.
Like it feels like freedom everytime I say fuck her.
But also it's just such aregular part of my vocabulary
now I don't edit myself, but indeference to my ex-husband's
preferences, I try not to swearto him.
Right.
Cuz he really does not like it.
He feels strongly about it, butwe're talking about some kid
(09:29):
stuff and he and I are doinggood with like being co-parents
right now It's it's going prettywell, but so I can't remember
what we were talking about, butall this, I was like, yeah,
Jesus fucking Christ.
It's just rough right now.
Oh, it's cuz I was feelingreally ill.
I was having like a really roughcouple weeks and so I didn't
realize, and I was too late.
And so like out of all thethings that he would not
appreciate hearing Jesus fucking
Val (09:54):
no, it's not good.
I, something happens inside mybody still when you say it
Kat (09:58):
oh really?
Val (10:00):
and
Kat (10:01):
so you like, fuck and fuck and motherfucker Yeah But you
can't
Val (10:05):
did Jesus do to you?
What did Jesus like?
Kat (10:07):
What, oh yeah What did Jesus do to you?
I think Jesus is probably fine.
Like if Jesus, Jesus and I, wegonna kick it, I'd be like
what's up Jesus.
But anyway I, I love taking hisname in vain so
Val (10:21):
Yeah.
That one
Kat (10:21):
cuz I wasn't allowed to Yeah
Val (10:23):
still is hard for me.
That's sorry.
No, no, no, no, but I just wannasay, in an effort not to censor
you.
Oh, cuz I edit the podcast.
I could edit it out, but I
Kat (10:32):
don't, You don't
Val (10:33):
don't without telling you that's my own internal, there
are no weeds in my heart.
As my husband Don't censor catthat will put weeds in your
heart.
Kat (10:42):
Yeah.
Not without my knowledge.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's so funny.
Val (10:47):
But you know leading into our topic
Kat (10:50):
Yeah.
Val (10:50):
I realize there's something that I've been doing that I
think is coming from our past aswell.
Right.
Because you know the last coupleepisodes we've released, we
talked about resistance andADHD.
We did another ADHD episode andin there I remember listening
back to it and I'm like, wow, Ireally talk a lot about yeah,
maybe I'm just gonna divorce myhusband.
Kat (11:10):
yeah.
yeah, that comes in like today'sthe day
Val (11:15):
I think it's a funny stick.
It's a funny bit that I'm like,oh, well maybe time's up.
Yep.
And I was like, Val, why are youdoing that?
Like, people are gonna thinkyou've like, you're, you're a
little too wild here.
Right.
So I thought I started to justkind of think about it and
reflect on it.
And I was like, you know, Ithink because for so long it was
one of the worst things, right.
(11:35):
It just seems like, that.
And like premarital sex, theworst things you could do
Kat (11:39):
in our old worldview Totally
Val (11:40):
And how even disruptive it is, I mean, to everybody's
lives, like whether you're inthat kind of belief system or
not, but just even if you wereworking for church, how could
you get divorced?
Cuz the woman always gets thrownunder the bus.
They always get the short underthe stick in that situation.
And so how, like that was theworst thing.
And I mean, there were timeswhen I was like, it would just
be better if I weren't alivethan get a divorce.
(12:01):
How terrible is that?
that's how big of a failure itfelt, right?
That inflexibility.
This is not how life is.
Kat (12:07):
And so now you have the freedom of actually I have
autonomy and if I decided to bedone, I could be done.
And you could just like, liveyour life in that shame free.
Val (12:16):
I feel like it's just that reminder, yep.
Hey, if it's done, it's done.
And I think because we have apretty big unsolvable problem in
our relationship, I think Ibrought that up in the ADHD
episode and we thought we wouldtalk about that more today.
Yeah.
Right.
Kat (12:30):
The unsolvable problems,
Val (12:32):
The unsolvable
Kat (12:33):
problems.
Val (12:34):
Should we break to commercial now?
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Val?
What happens when there's anunsolvable problem?
Val (13:35):
Oh man.
ah,
Kat (13:40):
well, they show up in our lives in all different kinds of
contexts in ways Right.
So, yeah, interpersonalrelationships maybe our
listeners, you guys haveexperienced this where you and
someone else can't seem toreconcile a particular issue.
Mm-hmm but then, you know, welook at like bigger things in
our culture it zooms out there'sproblems in the world.
Yeah.
You and I talked about chronicillness Yeah.
(14:00):
So what
Val (14:01):
Friendships, family relationships.
Yeah.
What do we do about it?
Well, I'm sort of in thatsituation now.
And I know you've, you've shareda lot.
I was like, well, I guess it'smy turn.
Kat (14:10):
Yeah
Val (14:10):
you've shared a lot.
You've shared a lot of thingsthat are happening in your life,
sort of in real time.
And the podcast, things thatwere not tied up with a bow.
And it just so happens that aswhen we started this podcast, I
had gone through a lot ofpainful things in the recent
past, but was kind of feelinggood.
Kat (14:26):
I know you were like, I'm doing good right now.
Val (14:28):
I'm like should
Kat (14:29):
like, I was crying all the time and you're like, I'm I'm
doing so good.
I'll just hold space for yourshit.
Cat
Val (14:36):
Listeners.
I did not but I did think like,should I be crying more?
Like also, I did come out oflike a, a long period of
sadness.
Right.
how weird to say, like, somethings got resolved during the
pandemic.
Right.
I feel like I kind of had abreakthrough in sort of my
grieving and the trauma aroundinfertility trying to be
(14:58):
pregnant.
And actually in some ways theissue, the unsolvable issue in
our relationship is about
Kat (15:04):
you and your husband,
Val (15:05):
me and my husband is about his travel.
and that even got a reprieveduring the pandemic, of course.
Right.
I got, him home for a while.
Actually it took a pandemic forhim to stop fully and then when
he could travel he still wasn'tgoing as often.
Kat (15:18):
Right And for the listeners who maybe don't know like your
husband's Brazilian and he has awhat international business.
He sounds so fancy Yeah.
well, like
Val (15:30):
he created all this on his own.
Right.
Like it's very smart and verywhat's the word?
Kat (15:35):
like ambitious Oh resource so sure
Val (15:37):
right?
Like he actually created abusiness and actually, this is
part of the whole thing.
It's like he has a foot in each
Kat (15:44):
right
Val (15:45):
And actually he said to me on the phone, something to the
effect of like, I have a greatlife with let me maybe not push
it and like try to have twogreat
Kat (15:54):
Oh oh yeah.
Val (15:55):
Where okay.
Listeners, I'm not gonna be ableto fill you in, on every single
detail.
Cuz what I realized was this hasbeen going on for a decade.
an unsolvable problem in themiddle of that too was well,
some
Kat (16:06):
well because you want him home more cuz your life together
is good and you don't wanna haveto be by yourself living life.
Val (16:12):
Right actually funny enough at the beginning of 2020 I just
kept say I don't, and can't dothis anymore.
I don't want you gone as much.
And I feel like I've done a lotof compromising or the problem
solving, like, okay, I'll takemy practice online, a video even
before the pandemic so I canhave some more flexibility and
travel with you.
And he said, okay, look, give methe year 2020.
Kat (16:36):
little, did we know
Val (16:37):
little, did he know?
Oh, I wish there was one ofthose voiceovers that our
narrators little did he know?
I'm like, all right.
He goes, just gimme this time tolike, get things in place.
So don't have to go as often,blah blah.
And so yeah, I was already atthat place.
Right.
But yeah, I did have a littlebit of a meltdown this weekend
and he's, he told me I need tobe gone for two weeks, you know,
(16:58):
business trying to rebuild thebusiness after he got really hit
by the pandemic.
So, right.
I feel like I'm a veryunderstanding person in general.
Right.
Okay.
I get that.
And accepted that, yeah, he'sfrom another country, so this is
part of it.
But yeah, I had a little bit ofa breakdown this weekend of.
sadness and my sort of dealingswith this problem after about
(17:19):
six days.
Yeah, I'm good.
I have my friends, a pickleball, the community that
communal effervescence, thatbeing connected to something
larger than even just yourfamily or friend
Kat (17:29):
group.
Right right.
Val (17:30):
My work, all these things, but after the sixth day and I
saw the pattern, I mean,probably even six to eight years
ago and shared with him can wecome to an understanding, can we
come to an agreement that aftersix days, this intense sadness
comes over and I'm done like oneweek a month.
Okay.
That's still a
Kat (17:47):
lot.
It is a lot.
It is a lot for
Val (17:49):
It's still a lot.
And he just was unable to
Kat (17:52):
it Yeah
Val (17:53):
which blows my mind, honestly.
Yeah.
But I think I've talked about, Idon't know if it's an ADHD trait
or not, but it just seems thatit's harder to compromise.
Once you get an idea in yourhead, it's like, this is how it
should be.
Right.
Also there's some like freedomstuff and rebel stuff,
Kat (18:08):
and yeah
Val (18:09):
the freedom.
And how do you write the fourtendencies?
You introduced me to that, butthe rebel can't really feel like
they're backed into a corner.
They need choice.
They need a little bit of say onwhen, and their terms.
Kat (18:21):
And I'm sure
Val (18:22):
I mean, which just sounds like being an asshole to me.
Kat (18:26):
I know.
That's so funny.
The need for autonomy for therebel.
Like that's my tendency too.
So we should just quick say thefour tendencies.
You can be an obliger.
You can be a, what are the othertwo, Oh, upholder.
Those are the rule followers.
Oh my God Yeah.
And then there's one
Val (18:40):
bar
Kat (18:40):
Oh my God.
Anyway, the book's good.
The link is in our show notes.
People's
Val (18:44):
Yes Yeah.
It's really helpful to find yourmotivation.
Kat (18:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I thought it was so cool.
Val (18:48):
The questioner that's the
Kat (18:49):
other one.
Oh yeah.
Val (18:50):
The questioner, it has to make sense.
Like if you wanna follow a rule,like it has to make
Kat (18:54):
sense Right You need buy in by asking yeah.
And then the obliger is justgonna follow the rules.
Val (19:00):
Yes.
And they're motivated, if you'retrying to get motivation, you're
doing it for other people.
You have a harder time to do itfor yourself.
Yeah.
Kat (19:06):
I wonder what the overlap is between revels and
neurodiversity, because I'm alsoa revel, but I did all that
masking cuz of like thecultural, being raised fem in
the world and all those otherkinds of things and like the
conservative Christianity nowstuff.
So I did masking as an obligerfor years and then like my
truest self started manifestingmore and more.
And I was like yeah, I can't Ican't do I have to, I need a lot
(19:27):
of
Val (19:28):
Yeah.
I couldn't respect that eventhough right.
I'm different.
Like, but one time his, cousinsaid to me, Val, for Rafi, it's
his way or no way.
Oh.
And that was a long time ago.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
Yes.
But he also comes off as kindlike go with the flow.
Kat (19:44):
He does come off that way.
But now I know more
Val (19:47):
that
Kat (19:47):
I'm like seeing different sides of him.
And
Val (19:49):
it's
Kat (19:50):
oh you are, you're a
Val (19:52):
It's a paradox.
Kat (19:53):
in a Speedo He's a
Val (19:54):
paradox
Kat (19:55):
in a Speedo you're Brazilian husband.
Val (19:57):
Poor guy.
And we're gonna talk aboutmedications and psychedelics
later, but I got to the pointwhere I was like, this
depression would come on for aday or two.
That was like, it was ahopelessness.
Like I like that dark fog.
Am.
I gonna really take some kind ofmedicine just to stay in this
marriage, like this feeling thatgame.
Right.
And and now actually being okayto decide to not be in a
relationship cause it's notworking, but there's so much
(20:18):
good also in our relationship.
Right.
So it's this thing.
And, and, and so anyway, I wasreally upset this weekend I
think I got to the place where Iwas like, yeah, I think I know
the answer now.
Kat (20:32):
Right.
Is the answer polyamory Is thatwhat you decided an open
marriage really?
you need more people toco-regulate with talk about like
Val (20:45):
creative problem solving.
Kat (20:48):
That's a good creative Wait, you guys, Val is not
making eye contact with me.
Val (20:53):
so stupid.
Kat (20:56):
I just love to on you, you like, you're like, hang with me
for a bit and you're like, oh,I'm not gonna look you though.
Val (21:02):
pushing me over the
Kat (21:03):
I'm not looking I'm not looking at you.
Val (21:09):
But he has made promises to me before I've tried.
even where I was like, okay, whycan't you compromise for seven
days?
Right?
All right, knowing that he lovesmoney.
I'm like, Hey look.
cuz he also would book ticketsand then tell me the wrong day
he was coming home because hewas afraid.
And so I'm like you're cominghome tomorrow.
Right.
And then at the last moment he'slike actually no,
Kat (21:29):
that's some weird ass I know
Val (21:31):
yeah I mean, when I heard that people with ADHD tend to
lie more, right?
Like not everyone obviously is ablank
Kat (21:38):
No not everyone, but yeah.
Like my kid who is ADHD, thatfucking kid lies and I don't
know why I don't lie, but I getdefensive.
Like when people tease me, likeI'm lying.
I'm like Uhuh, cuz I'm like, itis I don't know, just a core
value of mine that I'm like, Iam very truthful.
Val (21:54):
Yes.
Kat (21:55):
Yeah
Val (21:55):
So, so when we went to therapy, I think I brought this
up, like, why are you lying?
Or he didn't wanna tell me stuffRight.
And so, the therapist actuallyasked me, like, I was the one
with the problem.
why is truthfulness so importantto you?
And it was a Christian therapistand we're still going to church.
And I just
Kat (22:13):
whoa,
Val (22:14):
I'm like, I dunno, it's the basics of Christianity.
And, and so I, I was like, look,
Kat (22:20):
yeah,
Val (22:21):
lying will always make it worse, but I'm afraid to tell
you the truth of how I fucked upor whatever.
Right.
Lying will always make it
Kat (22:27):
worse.
In my mind.
Lying is an interruption tointimacy.
You can't fully know me if I'mtelling you lies.
Right.
Val (22:33):
Why are you trying to preach right now?
Yes, of course.
yes.
It, it stops trust.
Yeah.
And safety.
Trust and safety.
So when he tells me this time,babe, no more two week trips I'm
committed to you and our lifehere.
And I was like, well, I hearyou, but what happens if you
don't?
So before, when he would tell methat he wasn't gonna gone as
(22:55):
long, I'm like, look, what if Ijust find you for every day,
you're gone over seven days, Iget to put money in my like home
decor, budget or something.
Right.
Yeah.
Ooh,
Kat (23:05):
Did it?
I
Val (23:06):
I think he felt like
Kat (23:07):
he was the revel in him
Val (23:08):
Yeah.
And then I was like,
Kat (23:09):
like
Val (23:10):
ah, okay.
Forget it.
Kat (23:11):
he like,
Val (23:12):
anyway, again, it's my money too.
It's not like it's his money,but I try to even tried to like
put like a tax, a tariff.
You wanna be gone longer.
Fine.
It's gonna cost you
Kat (23:23):
Look at all this creative problem solving.
You're attacking this unsolvableproblem with all this.
Creativity's so impressive
Val (23:29):
So this time I said, well, what happens?
And he's like, look.
You know how much I love money.
You could take all our assetsand leave me I was like, well,
I'll do that anyway.
No, no, just kidding.
Kat (23:42):
OK.
he's
Val (23:44):
so upset that I told him we wouldn't be like, back in the
day, I was like, Facebookfriends.
If we ever got divorced, I'mlike, fuck you.
Fuck.
No, if we're getting divorced,
Kat (23:51):
totally.
Val (23:52):
I, I reserved the right to change my mind, but he thinks
that's hilarious and he can'tunderstand it.
Why can't we be friends afterI'm like, because we couldn't be
friends inside of a marriage, sofuck you.
Go have a fucking great life.
I don't know.
That's how I feel
Kat (24:06):
that's funny.
Val (24:08):
reserve the right to totally change
Kat (24:09):
that Yeah.
Well okay.
So my ex-husband, I was like,why can't we be friends?
Like, I would love to know like,like his dating adventures.
Like, I'd be like down for allthat shit.
I'd be like his biggest Butlike, he does at all.
Val (24:21):
yeah
Kat (24:22):
no, thank you.
Nah.
And I was like okay.
Val (24:26):
So I sort of sent you a polo, just, you know, well, I
had been crying, but I had thisknowing and I told you it's
weird, cuz we've been talkingabout those knowings that I'm
like cap.
I believe him.
And I actually think that he isgoing to change this knowing
inside of me I have this knowingthat I believe him and I, the
way he's talking differently,like, and bringing it up, cuz of
(24:48):
course, right.
That avoidant attachment it'slike, let's not talk about it.
And when I would want to sharewhat I was feeling, he would try
to change the subject.
I'm like, you gotta leave roomfor me to say what I need to say
to you.
He's listening.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
You're right.
apologized, which we know thatthat's difficult for him.
Yeah.
I'm sorry for hurting you.
(25:08):
Sorry for causing you pain.
And we were able to talk aboutit in a different way and I
really do think, right.
And of course I've done a lot ofmy own work that this is a lot
about him.
Right.
But of course it could make mequestion does he really love me
Kat (25:21):
Of course Yeah
Val (25:22):
have so much evidence that he does.
Right.
And that intuitive feeling oflike, this is real, which we've
talked about that on pastepisodes too, But I, like, I
have so much evidence to thecontrary, but it's like, well,
then what's going on?
And I think, poor RAI, I haven'tshared this yet on the podcast,
but like he was orphaned beforehe was like in high school.
Right.
Both of his parents and he wassort of.
(25:43):
live with his grandma.
And his uncle and just neverreally having a So I'm sure
there's some deep stuff that hehasn't connected to yet.
But I think the, the deepsadness for me too, was like, I
think I know that if he can'tfor whatever reason, and I've
told him if this is the life, ifthat really is what you need to
(26:05):
do, cuz he also doesn't wannamove to Brazil full time.
Cuz sometimes I'm like, wellVal, like be reasonable.
This man is from another countryhe's living here in your
country.
I don't really think I want tobe an expat in another country.
I love traveling, and he doesn'twanna live there full time
either.
So it really is this cake andeat it
Kat (26:22):
too.
Right.
Yeah.
And you know, as you've talkedabout like owning your shit and
all this, I've seen you like doall this work with boundaries
and articulating what your needsare and like getting more I
mean, forceful is the wordthat's coming to mind, but just
more like self-assertive right.
it's neat to see how, then wehave these opportunities to look
for our own growth in it, youknow, again, when we're like
(26:44):
we're dealing with conflict,conflict has this potential
opportunity for both parties.
Val (26:49):
Yes.
And I think that just sheddingsome of the stuff I use, I think
it just becomes clear if thatmakes sense.
What I need, like where my hardboundaries are or being okay
with cuz I think there can be astruggle when you're a people
pleaser and I was gonna saytrauma too.
Right.
Where you doubt yourself a lot.
(27:10):
And so I think maybe I'vedoubted myself.
But I think as it became clear,I think I was grieving cuz I was
doing that tired, sad, cry,
Kat (27:20):
right this week Yeah
Val (27:22):
And I think it was the grieving of oh, but I think I
know what I, what I'll have todo if he really can't do it.
Oh, does that make
Kat (27:29):
makes sense?
Yeah.
Like if he can't show up for youand like be home as much as
you're gonna need him to behome, then what, what you will
have to do in order some
Val (27:40):
Yeah.
And you gave me great languagefor it too, where you said, well
sure.
Your co-regulation partner islike gone for like more than 25%
of the time.
cuz I always think well how dopeople that, their partners are
always traveling., how come isthis hard for me?
And it also,
Kat (27:55):
for
Val (27:56):
and it doesn't matter.
Like I don't have to compare Ireally am okay with centering
myself and like, this is what Ineed.
what does it
Kat (28:04):
makeup their needs are gonna be different, but you're
allowed to have your needs, knowwhat they are and communicate
them to the people in Yeah,
Val (28:10):
Yeah.
But I think it goes about likeself care.
Yeah.
And what you
Kat (28:16):
Right.
Val (28:16):
And are you okay if I read this little poem I found for the
end, but I think part of mysadness this week is very well
explained
Kat (28:25):
this.
Okay.
Val (28:26):
Because before self love becomes a liberation, it is
first a burden.
Well, there's the anger at whotreated you poorly when you
didn't know how to ask forbetter the anger at yourself for
what you've allowed.
There's the grief for lost time.
There's the strangling necessityto push people, things, ideas
out because there's no room forthem.
(28:48):
There's the loneliness andisolation that accompanies the
growth of self there's.
The new boundary lines, the newrange of the word.
No, the opening of eyes thatwould rather be.
And the terrifying realizationthat love isn't synonymous with
joy, it's synonymous with growthAnd growth isn't bliss.
(29:10):
It never was.
It was a lie that said lovewould be white teeth smiles on
beaches.
The pinnacle of self love is notendless It is a heartbreaking
process of undoing the life,your unloved self built brick by
unworthy And these words are byJamie vain.
Kat (29:33):
Wow.
That's powerful I mean, youlistening, you read that and
this conversation of course,makes me think about my own
marriage and divorce, you know?
Yeah And I had to do a lot ofthe grieving before, before we
were even divorced or separated.
but you know, in my story, we,couldn't solve a problem because
it was I was no longer aChristian and I had tried so
hard to make sure that I stayeda Christian because I
(29:56):
intuitively knew that if Ididn't continue to share the
same faith as my former spouse,then that was it.
And yeah, so.
that was the strangest thing torealize that I sort of knew this
really early.
I had had this, my dad had diedwhen I was six weeks to dating.
(30:23):
with me to Ohio where I grew upand, the funeral with me and was
like, it felt so good to havehis love And then the grief
after And he was like thistangible human that it was a
manifestation of love becauseprior to dating him you know, my
(30:44):
whole support was like myfriendships.
Yes.
But I had this relationship withJesus Christ where he was, you
know, this was the culture toldus, Jesus Christ was my best
friend and was my husband andwas God.
And you know, all these things
Val (30:57):
be enough.
Mm-hmm
Kat (30:58):
But then I had like a physical person that loved me
and like would hold me and likeyou know, our friendships back
then, you know, it's sodifferent.
I discovered it was so differentthan being in a intimate
relationship because I wasthinking about like, when you're
kissing someone or you're justlaying in bed, your faces are
so, so close.
Right.
You don't usually get that closewith your like platonic
friendships, right.
Especially not in the worldwhere we came but then that
amount of grief ended up beingkind of a catalyst for some of
(31:22):
my spiritual evolution and.
I remember going to therapyright after we got married,
because I was like, holy shit.
I could feel the groundunderneath me.
Mm-hmm changing tremendously.
And I was like, I just thing.
I'd always wanted Mm.
Cause I was like, in ourworldview, like we both got
(31:42):
married sort of late in ourworldview, you know, like I was
31.
And, and so I'd finally gottenthis thing and you know, I
absolutely was in love with my,my husband at the time.
And so I had to like find aChristian therapist so I could
like stay a Christian.
Yeah.
And like work through all thisbut it's interesting.
The grief and then poem, likethe grief of the things that.
(32:04):
I had to like wrestle with thefact that, I chose a
relationship over my authenticpath, you know, and then I had
wanted to be a parent too.
And so we ended up having kidsright away.
And so then all of my owndevelopment got sort of put on
pause as I was, you know,parenting and, you know, it's a
whole series of events and awhole bunch of things where I, I
(32:24):
was choosing a life that wasn'tactually, as in line with who I
really, really am.
There was a lot of grief aroundthat.
And then, you know, I had causedharm because I had agreed to all
these things And then when Istarted to see that, I just
couldn't keep participating init the way that, he had imagined
you know, it devastated him.
Right That's right.
And so I, in, in deciding to endour marriage, I was like home to
(32:48):
myself.
And then right after wearticulated that, you know, our
relationship was over.
I was like, oh, I'm gay.
oh, of course I am.
Duh.
You know, a lot of people hearthe timeline and they assume I,
I find out I'm gay and I end themarriage, but that that's not
actually what happened.
I just realized I wasn't aChristian and I I was noticing
that I, I had agreed to the lifethat he wanted because.
(33:10):
I taught to do that, Val.
Yeah.
You know, we're taught to eraseourselves and to like, you know,
the whole codependency thing.
Right.
And it's not like he didn't makesacrifices too.
And I honestly, like, I don'thave anything negative to He's
like a good person, know, he'sgot some rigidity in his
thinking and he's, you know he'sreally changed averse.
He's got some things that madeit hard for us, you know?
(33:32):
And this became the, theunsolvable problem.
Val (33:36):
Which is
Kat (33:38):
felt like I had promised him a Christian life together
and a Christian family.
Yeah.
And I couldn't keep to promise.
And so in his mind he said itwas really interesting, but he
said, it feels like.
Adultery to But like that's howbetrayal, betrayal
Val (33:55):
Yeah.
Betrayal
Kat (33:56):
because I, I could no longer share his faith.
don't have control over that.
You know?
And that was such a strange, itwas really strange to be in a
truly unsolvable where I was.
you want me to keep denyingmyself and that feels so bad,
right?
Yeah.
And then again, you got therebel thing.
I was just starting to like,come into myself in a way where
(34:19):
I was clear about who I am andwhat I needed and what resonated
with me.
And so I was noticing like, Ididn't have to be on
antidepressants anymore.
I was having of depressionbecause I was finally like, oh,
this Right?
And then for that to notresonate with the person that
picked to spend their life withme was incredibly fucking
(34:40):
painful.
Like I wanted him to, be likeyay, look at how happy you are
now.
Look at all this growth in your
Val (34:48):
But, but that worldview tells you that that's the most
important thing and thateverything else really is
nothing.
Kat (34:55):
And what he needs is stability.
And he needs someone that'sgonna be his like partner and
working towards the goals thatfeel resonant to him.
And his goals didn't resonatewith me And It was strange It
was like stuff about likewhether or not we save for the
kids' college.
We don't even know if college isgonna be a thing when our kids,
like, you know, like the wholeeverything felt.
And so anyway yeah, he wanted usto be making sacrifices that
(35:19):
felt like they were biggersacrifices to me.
Like I just didn't have enoughsupport at home.
Yeah.
And he was like, we gotta savemoney for their college.
And I was like, I'm depressedall the time.
Being home alone with thesechildren, could we maybe like
invest in me.
Right.
And so anyway Yeah.
So sometimes the unsolvableproblem.
Means you walk away.
Yeah And, and in my story, Idid.
(35:40):
And so now there's, there's alot more unknowns in my life.
It's interesting because even asI explore like my own health
issues and sometimes those feellike unsolvable problems right
Yeah oh I left a lot of securityin order to
Val (35:54):
like Mm-hmm you
Kat (35:57):
sense of you know, and that's just a fascinating trade
off, you know?
Val (36:02):
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And for me the poem, it mightseem, it felt a little maybe
extreme my circumstances, but Idefinitely that first I have to
choose what feels right for me.
Yeah.
It was that sadness sooner
Kat (36:18):
Mm Not
Val (36:19):
before, or it talks about grief of time lost.
Why didn't I come to thisconclusion earlier?
Yeah.
Or that time that you speak uplouder for like, too much.
This shouldn't happen.
So
Kat (36:33):
well I think about that too, the whole, like being like
how, how did I not have accessto that?
And, you know, and I can, seelike, it's the
Val (36:40):
Sure, sure.
Kat (36:42):
And then, but it helps if we're like, oh, time is a, a
construct it's okay This is alittle bit vulnerable to share,
I think.
But like I was thinking about,as soon as we were all
vaccinated I was like, I need todate, I'm gonna date everybody.
Right.
So I went from being.
only having one partner is myhusband.
And then like, I'm gonna do allthe things.
Right.
(37:02):
And so I, I Googled like, what'sthe average sexual partners that
a human being has and I'm reallyproud of, cause I already passed
it.
And so like yes, but it feltlike a, freedom thing of like,
fuck you purity culture.
Oh
Val (37:20):
yeah, that time you lost.
Okay, good.
So you've caught up, you'vecaught up in the time construct
the sexual time construct.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Okay.
I dunno how I'm gonna pivot outof that back to unsolvable
problems.
But before we wrap up, though, Iwanna talk about the unsolvable
problems.
And I think in one of theearlier episodes, I talk about
the Gottman's who did a lot ofresearch about relationships.
(37:40):
And they say that around twothirds, almost 70% of problems
in a relationship areunsolvable.
Kat (37:47):
That is a lot.
Val (37:48):
And I think there is this fun game of is it glass, half
empty or full?
Like, does that encourage you?
Or does that, scare you?
And until be honest, when Ishare that with people, a lot of
them are encouraged oh, okay.
Like this is actually okay, thatthere's unsolvable problems.
And then it's you're gettingmore proficient in managing
them.
Kat (38:04):
Right.
Val (38:05):
Getting better at solving the solvable problems in the
relationship.
Right.
The got ones were the first onesthat I heard say like that they
think people compromise too muchin a relationship that's
fascinating.
And that kinda humbled me, cuz Iprobably would've said Hey guys,
compromise more.
Right.
And I think because I am aperson that loves collaboration.
Yeah.
Can we can we get to like aplace where we're like, oh,
(38:26):
okay.
Yeah, we can all agree withthat.
But actually they're saying thatyou gotta get to the core, the
core of what you want, whatmakes you feel alive, who you
are, what you need that youshould not compromise on.
And to be honest, it was a goodlesson for me as well.
Because if Rav would've followedmy daily regimen of how many
days he could be gone, would hiscompany have gotten off the
ground and been as successful asit is.
(38:48):
And that was a part of him andhis journey and what he needed
to do.
And so I think that that was agood lesson for me too, of you
can't always compromise your wayout of it.
Sometimes it is that okay, ifthis is what you need to do, am
I still in?
Yeah.
Can I sacrifice for this time?
Or how do we manage
Kat (39:03):
this?
I love the word manage asopposed to solve.
Yeah.
Because again, if we're sayingit's okay, sometimes these are
unsolvable like You know, I talkabout now a lot in my
interpersonal relationshipsplease center yourself you send
to yourself and you justcommunicate that clearly to me
and I'm gonna do the same.
And then we'll see how weprogress.
Right.
Right.
Because my, in my marriage,neither one of us are really
doing a great job of that.
(39:24):
Right.
And so then you find you'restill gonna find conflict Yeah
Two people centering themselves.
You're like, okay So how do wemanage
Val (39:31):
this?
Yep Yeah.
Well, and I just had this well,because inside of strict,
Christianity divorce is notokay.
Right.
And so how can you tell peopleto send to themselves, you have
to have all these other rulessubmit to this one and like
absolutely right.
So you have to have all theseother rules to kind of make it
work.
Ah, so, here's two things that,come straight from the Gottman's
that I love to use with coupleswhen they get into gridlock,
(39:52):
they call it gridlock, which Ithink is a great sort of analogy
for that.
Right?
Like you've used all your tools.
This just doesn't seem like wecan solve it is to really look
for dreams within conflict.
Kat (40:03):
Right.
What's underneath whatever the
Val (40:07):
and I always, tell clients, okay, let's go a level beneath.
What could be underneath this?
I can give a great example inour lives.
intermingled in with thetraveling was, my desire to
start a family.
The dream for him was that heneeded to self actualize.
He needed to feel like he was asuccess.
Right.
He needed to be good atsomething.
Right.
And, he wanted to be financiallysecure before he brought a child
(40:28):
into this world.
That was his dream within thatconflict.
Yeah.
And then mine was that my familyof origins were sort of small
and there was some isolation andI wanted more joy.
I wanted more communaleffervescents
Kat (40:42):
Yes
Val (40:44):
And so I'm like, you know what?
I'm gonna do that for myself.
I'm gonna make a big family.
Kat (40:48):
Mm-hmm
Val (40:48):
And there won't be that loneliness.
there'll be so much communallife event.
That feels so good.
And so he was stopping me fromdoing that and from creating my
own family.
Right.
and so to be able to connect inan emotional way to the dreams
that are inside your partners,their resistance, we talked
about resistance last time.
Right.
And then just really knowingwhat's important to them and
being able to connect on anemotional level about things can
(41:11):
be really helpful.
Kat (41:12):
Yeah.
Val (41:14):
And then, So how do we manage this?
The exercise is to, to make twocircles, one inside each other.
And what you wanna do is findthe nucleus, that small circle
on the inside and right inthere, the things that are,
non-negotiables the things thatare really that core part of
yourself, who you are, what youwant, what your values are and
(41:35):
make that as small as you can.
What really are, think about it.
If you're getting value out ofyour relationship, like, I
always say like, I'd like tokeep this going like this, my
relationship is less of reallyamazing parts to it.
Right.
So with that in mind, with thegreater goal in mind, like how
small can you make that circle?
Like, what is really what arenice to haves?
Yeah.
(41:55):
And what are the things that youcan compromise So those things
go in the outer circle.
Kat (41:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
make sense?
Yeah, it does.
Now.
I just wanna understand why doyou want to make the little
circle as small as possible?
Val (42:08):
Well, I figured you would, you would not like that.
Kat (42:11):
I'm like all the freedom, all the freedom
Val (42:15):
well, I think it is a great exercise
Kat (42:17):
maybe it's about distilling it down to its most essential
Val (42:21):
you.
Distilling it down.
Does that sound better thanmaking
Kat (42:24):
audience
Val (42:24):
Yeah.
Okay.
Rebel.
Oh fuck you.
Kat (42:26):
I know.
I'm like can we like, tweak thelanguage here so I can get
Val (42:31):
well, and actually that was probably the language I just
came up in the moment.
So yes.
Distill it down.
Thank you very much to itsessence.
Yeah.
Right.
Is this really a non-negotiableright, right.
So yes, maybe the idea isn't tomake it as small as possible,
but distill it down to thethings that you're willing to
walk away because you can't getthese things.
Kat (42:49):
Another, I mean, we talk about core values So that that's
just know, articulating again,the process of know the myself,
right?
Yeah And unfortunately like,even though I was already 30,
because of the worldview we werein, I was restricted from
knowing as well as I make alifelong commitment
Val (43:08):
I think you did get to a very unsolvable problem.
Yeah.
Right.
That was very unsolvable.
I think one of you would reallyhave to change your core values.
Kat (43:17):
Right.
Val (43:17):
And you know, I was telling you about a great example about
this couple who was fightingover money and to one money
meant security.
Right.
And so he really wanted to save.
And the other partner had thisdream of a family cabin, buying
a second home.
Right.
And they were really fightingover like, well, that seems
frivolous.
We should be investing blah,blah, blah.
(43:38):
Right.
And so they were reallygridlocked into like what to do
with their money.
Right.
And they looked at dreams withinconflict, found that the one
partner money really meantsecurity.
And there was some things thathappened in, in their family,
you know wanting to make surethey were stable and you know,
that sort of a thing.
And for the other partner, therewere these dreams about family
time and how they wanted to livetheir life.
Kat (44:00):
Right.
Val (44:00):
I think it's a really good example of how they did the core
circle exercise, where for thepartner that wanted the cabin,
it was like the idea of a cabin.
Yeah.
In the woods was in the middle.
I really want that.
And we have the funds to do it.
Yeah.
So the other things that were onthe side were like, well, maybe
it doesn't have to be as big asI thought mm-hmm
Kat (44:20):
Mm since
Val (44:21):
my partner is really concerned about saving money and
that's a value of theirs.
Right, right, right.
Or maybe it doesn't have to bethis timeline that I thought
like, I could wait.
Yeah.
Right.
So that can be really helpful tosort of manage.
And I think then there is somesoothing that goes on.
You go to your coping skills.
I know that sometimes when Iagree to like a trip and I'm
(44:42):
like on day three, I'm like, youagreed to this.
Right.
Like you're, you're still in thewindow.
You're okay.
Like, go go play some more.
Pickable you come to manage Andthen we were talking too about
even some creative solutionsthat, are there different ways
to solve the problems that wehave that feel insolvable?
Kat (45:00):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, we don't know allthe answers obviously, but I
think the idea that like, I'mkind of taking away from this,
this whole thing is thatindividual growth can be such a
big piece of All of theinterpersonal stuff that's
happening.
Right.
And so like, we own as much aswe can for ourselves knowing
(45:21):
yourself and distilling your,essence of this is what I
absolutely need to have.
Yeah.
For me.
And then, you know, finding thatin the, the humans in our lives
and how to actualize that asbest we can.
Yeah.
So I really love that.
We keep coming back to you ownwhat's, yours and they get to
own what's theirs.
And then you're not saying youare wrong.
I'm right.
Like that feels like such animportant piece of it you are
(45:41):
allowed to be different yourcore values are allowed to be
different than mine Yeah Right.
And that doesn't make you wrong.
And so if we want to maintain anintimate level of relationship
We have to then find creativeways to manage, maybe solve,
maybe not solve.
Yeah But creativity it suddenly,it gets us out of that stuck
(46:02):
feeling, right?
Yeah.
It's funny, cuz you're like, Iplayed all the pick ball and
then I was like, am now I'mgonna spend some fucking money.
You're finding creative ways tolike get some dopamine because
your co-regulation partner isstill overseas.
Yeah.
You know And so you're beingcreative and you're managing in
the midst of something, youknow?
And then you're still having toreconcile well, but he's still
(46:22):
is gonna have to like meet me alittle closer to this circle
because even though I've got allmy creativity in the mix.
You know, it's still causingharm, right Yeah.
Yeah
Val (46:31):
And just changing my mind a little bit again, not that he's
wrong.
It does seem a little wild.
I gotta admit to you friends itseems out of the box, like who
lives like this?
Right.
I don't know if it got into ourepisode about ADHD, but you
know, when you're living withsomeone who's neurodiverse or
from a different culture thanyou are, or just, we tend to
like the yin and the yang, wetend to gravitate towards people
(46:52):
that are very different than us.
And then we spend the next,however many years trying to
figure out how to manage it.
The way for your relationship tolast is to make sure that you're
not thinking that you're right.
I think I said that in the ADHDepisode if you want to continue
your relationship and have itthrive.
the neurotypical person, can'tbe like, oh, my way is right.
(47:12):
And they're wrong.
They have to fix it.
Totally.
It's different.
Yeah.
And, and then how do we manageit,
Kat (47:17):
right?
Yeah, absolutely.
And we manage it.
We manage our lives.
by like centering pleasure andlike learning and growing and
being willing to evolve and
Val (47:27):
Yes.
Oh, we, I was laughing.
Were you talking about ourrelationship that we manage our
differences?
Kat (47:33):
Well, yeah, we do.
We do have to it too.
I don't
Val (47:36):
that's what I was laughing
Kat (47:37):
at.
you.
Val (47:38):
I did say, fuck you cat this
Kat (47:40):
morning.
Val (47:42):
but it's all working out fine.
So see, not wrong, but
Kat (47:46):
different.
Do you think that you and I arevery different?
do.
I think we have a lot of overlapand
Val (47:53):
We do.
We do.
That's why it's so funny, but weare very different.
But I love you so much.
Aww.
I love our podcast.
I love our time together.
I love all of our friends slashlisteners.
And I think that we've talked alot about all of our three
Kat (48:10):
questions we sure did.
Good job.
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