June 6, 2022 • 51 mins
Welcome to the grief episode mother fuckers! Kat and Val have both experienced big losses in their lives. They are not strangers to profound grief. With their characteristic humor and irreverence, our hosts walk us through some hard earned insights about grief, healing and learning how to re-organize ourselves after collective and individual loss, tragedy, and trauma.
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast
Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club
Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art
Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
(00:34):
Oh, yeah.
Kat (00:35):
I about,
Val (00:37):
I thought that we were going to start this episode.
Just kind of calm and somberbecause we have a somber topic.
It's a heavy topic,
Kat (00:45):
but we're going to lighten it up.
Val (00:47):
You just asked me what?
what did you just
Kat (00:49):
Well, I was looking at my notes and I just wrote the word
dads and it's underlined.
And I was like, why didn't Iwrite dads
Val (00:57):
and I had to remind you, cause we have dead dads.
That's why you wrote thatbecause we have dead dads.
Welcome to the grief episodemotherfuckers you got so grief.
Let's just
Kat (01:13):
gets better.
It gets better.
Val (01:17):
This is just the AdRoll books.
Oh my gosh.
Kat (01:23):
Val, I love you so
Val (01:25):
I love you.
Kat (01:27):
Everybody.
Val is the most wonderful,bright red lips today.
It just is making me
Val (01:31):
It's because I have my Parisian white and black striped
shirt on, so
Kat (01:35):
took a picture.
I'm going to put it on theInstagram.
Val (01:37):
yay.
I have a good hair day.
too.
Kat (01:38):
Yeah.
You look gorgeous.
Val (01:42):
And your hair is.
growing in and you've dyed itand it looks fabulous.
I love it.
I do.
I love, I love that you dyed it
Kat (01:51):
yeah, it looks better than I do.
Val (01:53):
So today we thought we would talk about grief and I
thought, I'd say a few things inthe beginning here.
Just that I think like allthings we, we deal with these
topics, with vulnerability.
We can get deep
Kat (02:09):
you.
Of course we can.
Val (02:10):
There might be some tears.
I've been crying.
recently a lot about stuff.
Yeah.
I freaked out my husband.
the other day.
Kat (02:17):
Good.
He needs to get rattled once inawhile.
Val (02:19):
but he's better.
Remember in former episodes.
I said, he's doing just enough.
He was actually doing even alittle more than just enough,
but I've trained him that Likeif I cry it's okay.
Like it's it's all right.
It's just tears.
Kat (02:31):
have to train everybody that too.
I do.
I cry a lot.
Val (02:34):
So he said, he said, it's okay.
if you want to cry baby cry.
We're going to treat thesetopics with irreverent humor,
Kat (02:41):
have to, I think that's the main coping mechanism
Val (02:44):
I do.
Kat (02:44):
Yeah.
Because you have to anchor ontosomething, otherwise the grief
and despair can swallow you up,but we don't want that.
Val (02:52):
I think it's a way to switch your brain into, you
know, we talk about negative andpositive thinking and how to
retrain your brain, to startthinking more positively.
I think you could retrain yourbrain to see some more of the
humor in life.
And Again, it's kind of likethat narrative therapy, we get
to create our own stories, andthe meaning that we make out of
things.
So I just find that it feels somuch better in my body.
(03:14):
I actually was laughing with my93 year old grandmother.
about sort of.
hi-jinks that might, my youngestbrother's getting into and kind
of how he decides to live hislife.
And she's just Like, you know,we're laughing about it.
It's, it's a serious thing, butit's better than crying that
gene went through her down thefamily tree.
We're going to use a Reverendhumor and I'm gonna reference
one, a grief expert, and I wasjust on her website and I saw a
(03:36):
little video about researchabout, humor in, in grief.
So
Kat (03:41):
I read it lots of places too.
Like we're not just making it,we don't make this shit up.
People were well read.
Val (03:48):
And so, we thought it was a good time to talk about grief
for many reasons, personal andalso collectively.
right.
And we'd like these episodes tokind of be evergreen or
timeless.
If you're listening to this inthe future, we're not going to
talk a lot about the currentevents.
I think We're justacknowledging.
But if you're listening to thisin the future, the context in
(04:09):
which we're talking about ourcollective grieve, there's been
an uptick in mass shootings.
There's some Supreme courtdecisions that are possibly
taking away.
rights.
We're still in like this postCOVID.
Kat (04:24):
Hm, but not post it's.
Yeah.
Val (04:26):
it's still
Kat (04:27):
It's still here and people are fatigued and exhausted and
Val (04:31):
And then there's a war.
in Russia and Ukraine, Andthat's devastating
Kat (04:35):
other parts of the world too.
Val (04:36):
And there's so many other things that, you know, listen,
there's a, V like something, I'msure that's more at the center
of your experience.
that We could add to this.
list, But that's the context inwhich we're sort of talking
about.
It's a dark time,
Kat (04:51):
It is.
And that's, what's so sort offascinating about grief is that
we live in a culture that wedon't have good outlets for it.
Like our culture really wants usto deny and repress it all.
And so then if you have anylike, personal grief in the
midst of this, like collectivesort of soup of trauma and grief
and loss, and then, you know,again, like reoccurring trauma
(05:14):
too, right?
Val (05:15):
The
Kat (05:15):
The, mash, this is reoccurring, so this is this
whole other thing that many ofus don't have skills yet to cope
with really.
And so when then you havesomething personal in your life
too, on top of that.
And so we just thought we'regoing to like, do our best to
share some of our helpful ideas.
Val (05:32):
Yeah.
And this is a part of how we'redealing with our grief Is making
art
Kat (05:37):
isn't it.
It's self-expression for sure.
Val (05:38):
And so much catharsis in
Kat (05:40):
And community together, and
Val (05:42):
And I hope our laughter I did have one listener say, can
you just make a really longlaugh, track?
Oh, okay.
pick a ball update.
There's a, there's an oldergentleman.
Oh Actually.
The first day I met him, he waslaughing and then someone's
like, oh, he just lost his wifeThe other day, I was like, oh
shit but he has like such aunique laugh and cause I also
(06:03):
was like teased about my love byadults.
By pastors.
Yeah.
Kat (06:08):
stupid
Val (06:08):
I don't know
Kat (06:10):
So awful.
Val (06:11):
Who makes fun of a child Who's laughing Yeah.
They said, Oh, I thought yougrew out of
Kat (06:16):
of that.
Shut up.
Oh, I hate
Val (06:18):
Yeah,
Kat (06:18):
who they are.
Val (06:21):
they're dead too.
We're talking a lot about today,this just lovely pickleball
gentlemen, they were like, oh,have you, Valerie, have you met
so-and-so?
And I'm like, oh yeah, I know.
I know.
So-and-so I'm like we're in theamazing laugh club.
together.
I said you didn't know that.
(06:43):
So they all laughed.
And I thought that washilarious.
I feel like you should have justlaughed a little
Kat (06:48):
bit more.
Val (06:48):
you just made that up in my head.
Kat (06:57):
I was waiting for them to be like more, like he said
something next.
I didn't know that the story wasover.
Val (07:03):
No, that was the genius.
I was like, should I know him?
Kat (07:07):
We're an amazing lab club.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
Val (07:11):
That's all right.
I just want it to be honest,just get that out.
I didn't want to hold thatgrudge against you.
Anyway, everybody laughed.
And I was like, yeah, you didn'tsee his membership card.
And then I just felt good aboutit.
Cause I made everyone laugh.
Yes.
Thank you.
Kat (07:27):
All right.
I have to confess
Val (07:28):
something.
Oh boy.
Kat (07:29):
Yeah.
Like in the midst of thisfucking soup of collective grief
guests.
Well, you already know
Val (07:35):
Oh, I know I'll play along for the sake of our listeners
though.
What has happened, cat?
Kat (07:40):
I experienced a breakup that really broke my fucking
heart.
Yeah.
And so then I was like, this isthe worst.
I hate it so much.
Oh, but you know what?
I have a fucking podcast and youknow what else?
I'm going to Taylor swift allover you mother fuckers.
(08:02):
And so yeah, you want to dateme?
You better be prepared.
'cause I have a God damn fuckingplatform with thousands of
downloads.
Val (08:15):
yes.
told the pickup ballers, theyall want to listen to the
podcast.
I'm like, I'm not sure guys, ifthis is your cup of tea, but I
was like, look, You might be init, if you've been said
something really funny or reallyrude.
Okay.
you might be in it.
So watch out, watch how youtreat me folks.
Kat (08:33):
everybody,
Val (08:34):
watch out.
Kat (08:35):
you all watch yourselves.
Oh my Yes.
Val (08:39):
Yes.
Dear friend, you have been goingthrough A lot of heartache in
the midst of this, in the midstof also some really wonderful
things like our podcasts,launching.
I mean,
Kat (08:49):
so what we decided is we're going to talk about grief today
and it was going to be a littlebit more like some overview of
how to cope with grief.
And then next week I'm gonnalike, watch out,
Val (08:59):
set your DVRs.
Kat (09:03):
This is a fucking teaser.
Val (09:05):
Yes.
Good job.
I'm I'm excited for thatepisode.
Oh yeah.
I
Kat (09:10):
have some real insights about like how to
Val (09:12):
do
Kat (09:12):
with a breakup.
You are very wise, Val.
I mean, people who want somesupport in their relationship
should definitely seek you out.
Val (09:20):
I mean, I've been on fire.
This, week.
I just want to say, I
Kat (09:24):
your clients are so
Val (09:25):
I feel like therapists don't get a chance to like show
out and be like, oh, Maybe theydo.
Maybe I'm just not doing it.
But yeah, it was like, Ooh, Itold One client.
You need to have a breakupritual.
when you're out there dating,and she was like, oh yeah.
I felt that too.
You need to do something.
And we're going to talk aboutrituals to how powerful they can
be We've done this full swingback and forth.
(09:47):
from like, Oh, rituals are emptyand we don't need them to like
they help us shift.
and move things.
Kat (09:55):
And if it's somehow personal, you're like, that's
the whole thing of like, if itfeels resonant, see, this is why
you got to be in touch with yourfucking body.
Is it resonant with you?
Then it will be meaningful ifit's just this thing that people
are doing over there.
Does it mean anything to you?
Of course it's
Val (10:08):
Right.
Oh yes.
There's little Pearl of
Kat (10:11):
fucking engaged in your own goddamn healing, your own
goddamn life.
Val (10:15):
Okay.
So can we just talk about grief?
For a minute, what it is andwhat it isn't
Kat (10:21):
let's get into it.
Val (10:22):
I love just watching sort of our evolution as a society.
and What what comes into likeour social discourse?
When I started doing therapyabout 10 years ago, clients had
never heard the word self-care Ihad to explain that isn't, that,
that was just under 10 years.
ago.
So the things that we're talkingabout and, I feel like what
doctors feel like with Webb andD you know, I have clients
(10:43):
coming and saying like, well,you know, I Googled all this and
like, this is what I found, butwhat do you think?
Kat (10:47):
Yeah,
Val (10:48):
so I think we are getting a bit better at understanding what
grief is, when Kobe Bryant died,right.
The basketball player Peoplewere asking how can I feel so
deeply, over somebody that Inever met.
Right.
But I think that we know whatgrief is when it's a loss of a
parent or a child or a lovedone.
But then all the other griefs, Idon't think that we're really
(11:12):
that great at spotting.
but they're affecting us.
Kat (11:14):
are.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
And so I just want to say too,it's capitalism's fault, stupid
fucking white supremacy,colonialism, bullshit.
You know, the idea that you needto like go to work and put most
of your humanity away so thatyou can be productive for this
other entity.
Right.
It's asked all of us over andover and over again to separate
(11:36):
ourselves from our emotional
Val (11:39):
It does create dissonance doesn't it.
Like I have to show up and dothis.
Like, what does this even mean,job?
And put all my humanity aside toproduce.
Kat (11:50):
We all have grown up in this environment.
And so it's not, that surprisingthat it's difficult for most of
us to engage with grief, youknow?
And then you were talking aboutVal, I really appreciate that.
You've said this.
It has been so helpful to me.
You said that.
Dissonance creates
Val (12:05):
trauma.
Kat (12:07):
And so that's what's happening is that.
Val (12:10):
you know,
Kat (12:10):
I even think about like when it was time to send the
kids back to school, right?
Like people really wanted my kidto be at school every single
day.
And my kid has ADHD and theschool is a little bit chaotic
because of how many timesteachers are out and admins are
out because of COVID and sothere's a lot of inconsistency
and I know that everyone's doingtheir best, but my kid just has
(12:33):
their own set of unique needs.
And then those needs were notable to be fostered enough.
So my
Val (12:39):
because we were in a pandemic
Kat (12:41):
know, so I can use to stay home and reset and I'm like,
that's okay with me.
I don't care that much aboutlike their academic success as a
fourth grader, when there aresome big picture things that we
don't even know how this impactsall of us.
Right.
But then like people that are init, they're like attendance is
only 91%.
I was thinking about roofing.
I was like, ah, that's a fuckinga get the fuck.
(13:03):
Like my job is to make sure mykid is emotionally.
Well, you know, not just liketell them they have to.
Disappear part of themselves tosit there, button a chair and
pay attention.
Val (13:14):
Right.
Kat (13:15):
Don't try to convince me that I should believe that your
particular story when I'm theone that lives with my child,
you know what I mean?
And I'm like, that createsdissonance.
but there's enough of them thatfelt a little gas lady.
Honestly.
Listen, people we're still inthis shit.
What kind of hoops?
(13:36):
Did you jump through to get tothe conclusion that we have to
soldier on?
I don't know.
They're not nearly as I'mjudging their body as I am when
the plug is,
Val (13:44):
Well, and then we also have just have to survive.
Right?
And capitalism is like, youjust, you have to work.
And I've actually had a fewclients and friends recently
talk about how their bosses Soreadily dismissed their grief
because it wasn't a spouse orsomething, You know, It's
interesting.
You talk about dissonance, likewalking through the world, even
just when we've called out howwhite supremacy, affects us all,
(14:08):
but obviously more for moremarginalized groups and just the
dissonance of like a friend wastelling me, I'm trying my best.
And yet there's this ideal ofthe white male, pattern that you
have to fit in there was such adissonance of well, I'm trying
my best, but it feels like thetarget.
I can never meet it because I'mnot that.
right.
Or even when my dad died it wasabout.
(14:30):
Hm, four months before nine 11.
And My dad died very suddenly.
I was about 25.
He was very young.
And I remember sitting in myliving room watching the news
about nine 11 but I was like,yeah, now, you know how I
Kat (14:46):
feel
Val (14:47):
And obviously I was devastated about nine 11, too.
Right.
But I remember sitting therejust in my grief, in my
devastation.
And then it was like the wholeworld was devastated.
The whole world caught up towhere I was.
and There was less dissonance.
I wasn't the only one grieving.
And the whole world was grievingalong with me.
Kat (15:08):
Yeah.
Val (15:09):
We don't realize that grief, takes energy
Kat (15:12):
so much
Val (15:13):
energy.
so much energy, Right.
And so we need to make shiftsand changes and have
self-compassion.
And I have a friend who wastrying to take care of himself
after multiple friends died andwork is just like, I don't get
it.
I don't get it.
They're your friends.
which, Which is just terriblyinhumane.
But he's trying to take care ofhimself in that knowing he needs
(15:36):
more time off.
So I think one, we want to justremind everyone.
If you're grieving, if yourheart is heavy to take some
time.
And really take care of yourselfin those times,
Kat (15:47):
what was the other thing you talked about in one of our
other episodes the ability tosit in the discomfort.
You had a cool phrase for thatwhat's that called?
Val (15:54):
Distress tolerance.
Kat (15:56):
So, so I think that might be a muscle that we, can learn
to grow in.
So when you're in grief oryou're experiencing any kind of
pain say the phrase again.
Val (16:07):
distress tolerance.
Kat (16:09):
It there's this thing that when we're in it, it feels like
this is forever.
Cause it's so
Val (16:13):
intense.
Kat (16:14):
But when you realize, oh, I've lived through some shit and
actually this is not forever,you know?
I loved the words, distresstolerance, for some reason, they
felt like something I could justgrab on to in that moment so it
doesn't mean like whiteknuckling, it just stress
tolerance.
It means you're feeling yourfeelings and you're like, I can
still survive and this is notgoing to be forever.
(16:35):
I can endure this, this I'mfeeling it.
And it is absolutelyuncomfortable.
It really does hurt, but also.
I'm still here.
I'm okay.
And this is not going to beforever.
And those kinds of things, whenyou're really in it, just
remembering that and thatoffering yourself as much
kindness and softness andgentleness as you can, you know?
Val (16:57):
Yeah.
And the way I introduce it toclients, I say, it's a reminder
it is a muscle we have theability to tolerate distress.
Emotions are like waves.
and They, ebb and they flow andthey don't stay as intense as
the peak.
How do you tolerate.
Distract sooth.
Co-regulate we've talked aboutthat before.
(17:18):
There are so many ways and toolsthat we have at our disposal to
really ride those waves.
of grief.
Kat (17:25):
And I remember I was 29 when my dad died.
He also died suddenly.
And the intensity of the wavesand that was my first experience
with that kind of grief.
And so I remember like being outin public with I was dating my
husband back then and we were atsome event and some of his
family was meeting them for thefirst time.
And I had to like ask to leaveearly, We were just like at this
(17:48):
event.
And I just, Crumbled.
And it was so painfullyuncomfortable to have that
experience out in public.
And then, it was reallyfortunate that he was like,
yeah, let's go, that's fine.
it did eventually start to, besomething that I could manage,
but my life changed in thatthose grieving months, you know?
And then over, the years, it'sgotten a lot less intense
(18:10):
obviously.
So one of the things Iappreciated that you said was
that all coping mechanisms areon the table when we're
experiencing grief.
Do you want to say more about
Val (18:18):
Well, sure.
Can I say before that can I saygrief is
Kat (18:21):
wild.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Unpredictable
Val (18:26):
It makes us do a wild.
day.
Kat (18:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (18:29):
And there's some great tools out there, like the stages
of grief.
Right, You've probably heard ofthat Kubler-Ross started with
the five stages of grief.
We think oh, their stages, theycome one after another but
actually they're wild.
It's going back and forth.
up and down, They don't.
And I
Kat (18:44):
ping pong
Val (18:45):
ping-pong, I think it's helpful to go like, oh, okay.
I'm in my anger.
I'm you know, in a
Kat (18:51):
depression, I can relate to that.
Yeah, for sure.
Val (18:54):
So they kind of go back and forth and you think okay, I'm
good.
And then another
Kat (18:58):
lady.
Val (18:58):
right?
I always talk about healing andgrowth and, realizations come
Kat (19:03):
in layers
Val (19:03):
So I think I would love to see us realize that grief is
not.
Just something to be gonethrough as quickly as possible.
Okay, let's see what level ofgrief.
This is like if you sprainedyour ankle?
Oh, okay.
this is a mild sprain.
So it should be you know, right.
That grief actually can staywith us our whole life.
(19:26):
And I think that that can feelscary, but I think that if we
realize that it will dissipatein its severity, but we carry
around this loss.
For the rest of our lives.
And that's okay.
Kat (19:38):
is.
And you, sort of, youaccommodate it, it becomes
integrated and, you also cankind of be friended.
It's interesting.
We think of negative emotions aslike something to be avoided at
all costs because we don't knowhow to deal with them honestly.
But what I have noticed is thatwhen we can befriend those
emotions they teach us profoundthings and, they're like
(20:00):
companions that like are notfrivolous.
Does that make sense?
They like, I don't know if thatmakes any sense, but it makes me
feel more grounded to know thatI've lived through the loss of a
parent at a young age, you know?
When I'm interacting with otherhumans that are experiencing
grief and loss, I can tap rightinto that.
I know what that feels like.
And then I get to hold spacewith someone else.
(20:21):
And so it makes me closer to thehumans in my life, you
Val (20:24):
Right.
And loss is just a part of life.
I think we can border on thesort of toxic positivity or the
oh, everything happens for areason.
or, Oh, there must have been a
Kat (20:34):
plan because all that
Val (20:35):
Right, Right, I just think that yes, we can see how grief
has shaped us and even thepositive.
Like, you saying that we canrelate to people it's almost
like a complexity in the depthIt gives your
Kat (20:48):
life.
It does.
Val (20:49):
But I guess we're saying that at the same time, it's not
the toxic positivity of like,oh, I'm so glad this happened
because now I can empathize withpeople.
No, It's that, Hey, thisterrible thing happened.
I have no control over that.
And also because we've done ourhealing work, Yeah.
Look at the depth, Look at WhatI've learned
Kat (21:06):
from it.
Yeah.
it's not black and white.
It's both.
And and that's, where the toxicpositivity gets in as they're
trying to push you all the wayover into one.
Life is so fucking nuanced.
it's all of it all mixedtogether at once.
Yeah.
I know that big grief in my lifehas also been a catalyst for
change for me.
So like my body, when I wasdiagnosed with a chronic illness
(21:26):
and ended up being a hugecatalyst for a lot of spiritual,
like awakening experiences.
And then even when my dad died,the timing of it was really
interesting, but that is whatreally began my deconstruction.
Yeah there was something aboutpeople were saying fucking
platitudes to me, you know, thatGod knows.
And then my dad, wasn't the onlyone to die.
(21:47):
There was two other paternalsort of figures in my life that
also died in that quicksuccession.
I was angry and anger has beensomething difficult for me to
hold onto my whole life.
I think, as a coping mechanism,decided to like be pleasing as
opposed to like really hold anyof the anger that, you know
there's plenty for me to havebeen angry about.
(22:09):
But that was the first time inmy life.
I was really angry.
I was forced to confront a lotof dissonance
Val (22:17):
Well sure.
because religion is supposed toBe there for us in those
moments.
Kat (22:21):
But also the grief was so profound that it shook
everything in me.
And so it shook me
Val (22:29):
up.
Kat (22:30):
Yeah.
And so If you zoom out, you canbe like, oh, my dad died.
And so then I deconstruct fromChristianity.
Isn't that great.
But no, that's exactly what itfelt like, but it was like my
world shattered and I had tofind out how to rebuild it.
Right.
You and I were talking aboutthat too.
Like, there's this, what thefuck do I do now?
Right.
And so what was happening isthat I had this intense pain of
(22:51):
loss that I wasn't expecting.
And then also suddenly thisworldview doesn't resonate like
it did before.
Then I had to fucking deal withthat too.
And then in my story ended upbeing the early part of my
marriage.
And I was like, oh fuck.
I was really grateful to have mythen husband, because, in a lot
(23:12):
of ways, he was such a giftthrough that, through that
grief.
But what happened was with thedeconstruction is that I became
aware of like, oh, I have tosomehow stay at Christian.
So to help me with my angrygrief, I found a Christian
therapist who was a realtherapist and not just someone
was going to give me platitudes.
And they were the ones thatreally helped with the
deconstruction, because I wasexpressing all this dissonance
(23:33):
and they're like, you know, lotsof Christian people don't take
the Bible literally.
And I was like,
Val (23:38):
what?
yes.
Kat (23:40):
So at that season of my life, I was committed to like, I
need to stay a Christian cause Iwant to be married to this man.
But yeah.
So grief it just is right.
It's going to be part of it.
All right.
We can sit with it and be withit and then it, can have beauty
is what I'm trying
Val (23:54):
to say.
Kat (23:55):
Like, and again, it's not that I'm being overly positive.
It's that in everything weexperience in life, it can be
transmuted into somethingfucking.
Val (24:02):
radiant.
I have to admit, and I thinkthis is, what our podcast
Kat (24:05):
is about.
Val (24:06):
I don't feel that way about the things that I have
Kat (24:09):
went through.
Val (24:09):
at all.
I just don't like my dad dying.
Nope.
Just It's just a tragedy.
I mean, like, right.
It's just It's a tragedy.
It was a health tragedy.
That had a real effect on a lotof people.
I think some of the beautifulthings that came of it was I
still have people.
And I think one of our long-termlisteners friend from, high
(24:31):
school, they'll still talk aboutmy dad was one of the best men
they ever knew.
Actually in his hospital room, Iremember.
The young men coming in, youknow, he helped me so much and
he was there for me.
The legacy, or we've talkedabout clean pain and dirty pain.
Like, I didn't have trauma withmy dad.
I was a daddy's girl.
We had a great
Kat (24:50):
room.
Val (24:51):
There's a lot of sadness that he never met Rafiq.
He never Met my brother's wife,you know, never met his
grandkids.
The grief that my mom stilllives with the way it affected
my younger brother and mygrandmother.
And, and I don't know, I guessI've just contrasting your
experience with mine, right?
So to have the.
full Spectrum of experiences,but and I don't feel like it did
(25:13):
anything.
No great awakenings, no,nothing.
I mean, that was 25, again, nine11 happened.
I did have a premonition.
that I remember we talked aboutthese, knowings.
I had, I say it in the otherepisode, I was actually at a
funeral.
Well, my dad was probably havinga stroke I was doing my pastoral
duties.
It was for a young person.
(25:34):
Their grandmother had died andthey wanted me to come support
them.
And I was sitting there lookingat the picture of the woman,
living into her old age.
And I remember thinking That'snot going to be my dad Wow.
I think the exact same time.
He was probably.
dying.
And so of course we had no cellphones then, And so I got home
when there was a message.
on the answering machine.
(25:56):
And So again, we talked abouthow these little knowings maybe
prepare us.
I was at peace with even thatknowing cause he had some health
problems, but it was still avery sudden thing.
So I'm grateful for that.
And you know, that's the firsttime, that I went on
antidepressants the depth of thegrief and I don't know at that
young age, like if I even wasable to go to the depths of it
(26:18):
and to be very honest with youfor being like a very process
oriented person, I feel like oneof the ways that I, I think I've
dealt with the profound grief.
is I'm.
Yeah.
He's gone.
And I don't, I don't know ifit's not my personality, I have
such great like childhoodmemories and stories, and get my
(26:39):
humor from him, I married, likea Brazilian version of my dad.
My mom was the first one topoint that out.
I have cousins who, on theanniversary of their father's
death, like post this bigFacebook you know, dad, I miss
you so much.
I don't know if I don't do itbecause it's not my personality
or if it would hurt too much, orif it feels cheesy, to me or
it's too sophisticated.
(26:59):
for that.
And I like to tell stories abouthim, but yeah, it's sometimes
I've wondered about that.
Like have I, and I have I alsocheated myself of something by
just
Kat (27:09):
going to be in like,
Val (27:10):
yep.
He's gone.
I'm from a family that doesn'ttalk about emotions too, much,
that's why this all feels veryfreeing to me.
that we Just don't talk
Kat (27:19):
about things.
Val (27:20):
And so maybe that was a little bit part of it, or maybe
it was my grease.
I thought I would be swallowedup by losing this man you know,
that I love so much.
So early.
So I don't know, even theinfertility, it's like, yeah, I
don't know.
I don't think it's given meanything except for, I've.
I think like that.
Kat (27:38):
alchemy,
Val (27:39):
you turn it into like, love the life you have.
I want to make sure we talkabout everyday
Kat (27:43):
grief.
Val (27:44):
Can we really recognize the everyday grief and go, oh, I
need to grieve that.
It's just recognizing it,allowing it to pass through and
calling it as such.
Like I, When I started cryingyesterday, the coffee shop, it
was because I saw this olderlady and I love the older ladies
of Northern California becausethey've done some
Kat (28:04):
shit.
Val (28:05):
They've like hiked Mount Kilimanjaro.
You could be sitting next tosomeone in a coffee shop.
And then I think I heard thislady say, well, what I really
want to do is go to Antarctica.
in the winter, which Maybesuggests that she's been in.
summer or spring.
And how, I don't know.
She was saying there was condomseverywhere.
(28:25):
like in like the.
I want to say.
Space station.
but that's not the right word.
There's nothing else to do.
there.
I guess it's like, they give youa pregnancy test If you're going
to be there.
over the winter.
Cause they can't get you out ofThere but there's this lady and
she's like one of those cyclistswith like the little mirror.
attached to her Elvis, you know,those, And I was like, dang, I
(28:46):
want to have this vitality intomy golden years.
But my body has felt like in hisage since I've been 20 years old
since I've been diagnosed.
And just that grief for like,how am I going to keep playing
pickleball when it just, I couldbarely walk this morning?
after playing yesterday.
Right.
And when my emotions are on thetop, I just cry about it, I'm
grieving something and I have tobe careful.
(29:08):
Right?
I talk about anticipatoryanxiety and this is anticipatory
grief.
when We're trying to predict thefuture and we're grieving over
something that may or may not
Kat (29:17):
happen.
Val (29:18):
Even the last couple of days, like we had friends here.
And I was like, okay, I think Ihave to go home and rest, this
shopping is fun, but I think I'mdone And just that loss of
ability.
We learned during COVID, I thinkit got into the social Discourse
about grieving things thatdidn't happen.
grieving your graduation, thatdidn't happen.
grieving, You know, all the babyshowers and and family dinners
(29:40):
that we missed out.
And that It's okay.
To grieve things that neverhappened.
We got to grieve those things,people, it's real
Kat (29:48):
well, we have to create space to do it too.
And then like acknowledge itbecause these things will pass
through our body.
Right.
Well, feel a thing.
And then in the moment where youhave that little like, welling
of oh my God, am I going to cryright now?
Right.
do you like take a beat and say,wow, well what's showing up for
me right now.
And the only way to do that isto actually create some space in
(30:09):
our life.
Yeah.
And again, we're pushing againstreally loud messages from the
culture we live in because ourculture.
It's very toxic and broken,especially around these, these,
the idea of living embodied is,is very contrary to what we've
been indoctrinated with incapitalist society.
And so, whatever our grief is.
(30:31):
I just want us to acknowledge,it literally is everywhere,
right.
So, if we could just be like,Hey, cool listeners, could you
maybe take more naps,
Val (30:41):
Could you take those mental health days?
when you need them?
Kat (30:44):
Yeah.
And like, would you maybe whenyou're interacting with your
kids, have them have stillness,could we learn it for ourselves
and then model it for otherpeople?
Could we interact with thehumans that are alive and be
like, oh, What I hear you sayingis, is that there's some grief
there and it's okay to sit withthat,
Val (31:03):
And if you're a manager at a company, Do your fucking best
to validate acknowledge and giveyour employees space for that.
Don't make it harder.
Kat (31:13):
You do that by doing it for yourself first.
That's the
Val (31:16):
you won't do it for other people if you're not doing it
Kat (31:18):
for, you know, because, we talk about there's all these
different coping mechanisms thatwe use.
And so our culture has taught usthat coping mechanism of work
harder at work will
Val (31:27):
save you
Kat (31:28):
work as the only thing that will see you through this.
Right.
That's a quote from sleepless in
Val (31:32):
Seattle,
Kat (31:32):
by the way.
And
Val (31:35):
also say, can we acknowledge that, like you were
talking about grief being allaround us, that the more
marginalized identities that wehold, the more that grief is
around all the time.
Whether their Racial identitiesand the grief of fuck this, the
system is rigged against, meeverywhere I go.
Or, you know, I'm always judgedby the color of my skin.
Fuck.
(31:55):
Right.
That is a, that is a griefRight, right.
Living in or having any otherkind of marginalized identity
there's grief all the time.
and How are we acknowledgingand, and letting it pass through
us instead of getting sort ofbottled up so looping back
around to what you asked before.
Grief grief does it's wild.
It's wild.
It makes us do weird things.
(32:16):
I actually didn't.
Start using the past tense of myfather's death for a while.
And at the same time I wasdating someone and he broke up
with me, like right after my dadI'm grateful, but a little bit
of a Dick move, but I'm alsograteful, He heard me call him
my boyfriend, or I didn't evenknow I did it, but I was still
(32:36):
using it in the present
Kat (32:37):
tense.
Yeah.
Val (32:38):
And so he was like, why'd you say that?
Like, we're broken up.
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
But also I was doing the samething with my dad.
I was like, oh yeah, my dad, hedoes blah, blah, blah, blah,
Kat (32:47):
blah.
Val (32:47):
My body's didn't want to change.
my language to the past tenseyet.
Kat (32:51):
Yeah.
Cause God, it's, it's huge.
It's a major shift.
It takes our whole selves awhile to catch up to what our
present reality is.
Sometimes
Val (33:00):
I'm not going to get to the coping mechanisms because I'm
going to go on another side, butI think we have to mention
complicated grief, wherethere's, many things happening
at once.
Right.
And recognizing why am I havingsuch a hard time?
Why is this feeling so hard?
Well, it's that complicatedgrief.
There's many griefs going on atonce.
Right.
Rafiq and I were just talkingabout he needs to do some more
(33:23):
traveling and I'm like, look, Ithink that I had, it was
complicated grief with theinfertility that we experienced
also at the same time, leavingour church and not feeling like
a divorce, and losing a lot of.
friendships.
And then him being gone and ushaving difficulty.
in our relationship.
So it was all mixed together.
Cause I could have blamed it allon him.
(33:44):
Fuck you.
You're ruining our marriage, Icould have blamed it all on, the
infertility I could have blamedit all in the church.
And honestly it was a mixture ofall things.
And now that I have found somehealing from that and processed
a lot of the grief around theinfertility.
It doesn't feel torturousanymore.
when you leave.
Cause I would ask myself, I wasnot being very kind to myself,
are you that weak?
(34:04):
that you can't be by yourselfRight?
Cause I was brought up you needto be strong But it was the
trauma of all these other thingson top of it.
So now his traveling is just, Iwant him to be around.
and doesn't feel torturousanymore.
cause I've Healed other aspects.
of Grief and pain.
Does That make
Kat (34:22):
sense.
Yeah, it really does.
Val (34:23):
So should I, so should I just finally talk about coping
mechanisms
Kat (34:26):
well, I think we should do it right after the break.
We're going to go for a breakand then some coping mechanisms,
people, we have some things totell you that might actually be
helpful.
Val (34:37):
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Val (35:33):
Okay.
We're back.
Kat (35:34):
Hi,
Val (35:35):
So So in the middle of sometimes I get like these,
great downloads in the middle ofmy rantings during therapy.
I tell glides, okay.
I'm getting on my soapbox.
I want to, I want to tell
Kat (35:44):
you something.
I want to hear it.
I want
Val (35:45):
to hear it.
was like our culture.
We love a bootstrap and a white
Kat (35:51):
Knight.
Val (35:52):
We love a bootstrap and a white knuckle.
telling Everyone just pullyourself up by the bootstrap.
Or you can make it just go alittle harder.
you know?
And so I'm like, we love abootstrap in a white knuckle,
but we demonize the crutch.
Kat (36:08):
Yeah, we do.
Val (36:09):
And what fuckers, demonize a crutch, which actually just
helps you walk.
It's a beautiful object.
Thank you so much, crutch.
You're You're enabling me towalk when I've had an illness or
I've twisted an ankle.
Cause I have clients say like,well, I don't want it to be a
crutch.
Well, I don't want this to be acrutch.
Crutches help you walk people.
Kat (36:30):
Use them, find them anything.
That's a crutch.
Get some fucking crutches.
People,
Val (36:35):
crutches are amazing.
When did crutches become eviland morally wrong to use a
Kat (36:41):
of ableism fucking
Val (36:42):
Oh, can you describe ableism for anyone who hasn't
heard
Kat (36:47):
yet?
Yeah.
So ableism is just one of thosethings where you kind of vilify
someone who is disabled, right?
So like the ideal that, youknow, we're constantly projected
is, this, able-bodied can do allthese things.
And so when you live in a bodythat doesn't do those things,
you become
Val (37:05):
marginalized.
Kat (37:07):
And so yeah, the idea that.
Well, the goal should be foreveryone to be perfectly
able-bodied.
And so that we, like we pushaside people, you know what,
just real quick, the whole COVIDthing.
Like you know, I, I spent sometime in, in disabled circles,
right?
Like I,
Val (37:19):
I tech
Kat (37:20):
am disabled and I have limited mobility.
And so I spend time in thesegroups and so P these would be
people who are immunocompromisedand things like that.
And so this group of people islike, Hey, fuckers COVID is not
over.
I get that.
We all have fucking fatigue withthis shit, but seriously, you
are saying that it's okay if Idie.
Right because we don't valuesomeone's life.
(37:42):
But like a disabled person thatwe have systematically
marginalized, or like, yeah, youcould just die.
Right.
That's not cool.
That's bad.
So that's what Abel ism is.
So like, it's just a bias thatwe
Val (37:56):
right.
So, right.
We have a bias that if you needa crutch, then you are weak
Kat (38:00):
yeah.
And somehow less than adehumanize you.
So your social currency isdiminished.
We're always doing that work.
Val (38:07):
We are, we are.
Kat (38:08):
And we're not trying to shame anyone like we're
indoctrinated.
Right.
So, but when you become aware ofit, you're just like,
Val (38:13):
Shining
Kat (38:14):
like, yeah, notice it.
And then be like, Hey, maybe Iwill take an examine that at
some point after my seven naps,because of all the fucking grief
or
Val (38:21):
when we know better, we do better.
Thank you, Maya Angelou.
I love that.
So, any, yeah.
you said any sort of copingmechanism is on the table.
I also, yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
somewhat client was telling meabout like, I just want to stick
my head in the sand and theywere going through a lot.
and I'm like, Look, sometimes Idon't know if I surprised them,
(38:43):
I give them permission forwhatever, right?
Sometimes you just have to stickyour head in the sand for a
while.
And that's okay.
And then I, it just pops up.
Look.
Astra, just do it all the time.
Sticking their head.
in the sand.
Are they extinct?
No, they're surviving.
they did not go the way of theDodo bird.
Putting your head in the sandfor a little while.
(39:04):
Is that going to make youextinct?
Kat (39:06):
a legit Colby mechanism.
People find some fucking sad.
Val (39:10):
Do you like the answer?
Just do, put your head in thestand for a little while and
then shake it off, shake it offand find something else that
maybe might be more helpful inthe moment.
Kat (39:18):
Right?
Okay.
This is why we got to stay intouch with our
Val (39:21):
Yes.
Kat (39:22):
Don't live so much in your fucking brains.
Our brains are not reliable forcoping with grief, our brains do
weird shit.
So you got to stay in your bodyand then you say high body.
I would like to be gentle withyou.
I know we're going through alot.
Like what's the next thing thatwe need.
And then just listen,
Val (39:41):
so clients, I help them make lists for self-care and I
talk about self care self,nurturing, and self-soothing,
And I have them make a list ofeverything that they turn to
when they want to feel better.
And I think That freaks out somepeople
Kat (39:53):
like, oh,
Val (39:54):
am I going to tell you what I do when I just want to soothe
myself?
Right.
Like, right.
And I said, we're not going tomoralize.
Any of them, They're not goingto be good or bad.
We're going to learn how tocheck into our body each day and
realize, you know, when.
is Laying in bed, bingeing, yourfavorite show, the best thing
(40:14):
for you.
in that moment.
And when will that not feelgreat?
Right.
Like maybe you've got a paperthat's due or whatever, you
know, sometimes.
Going out for a walk feelsamazing.
and Sometimes it won't So Youcan't just have a list and be in
your head about it.
You have to check in because youwill feel the best
Kat (40:36):
when and what works today.
Won't work tomorrow and that'sokay.
That's again, like when you rideout the waves of grief and, and
looking at it as waves isreally, really helpful because
you need to, you need to be likethe surfer, right?
You gotta be the surf pro surferon the surfboard.
And what they're doing isthey're constantly in relation
to the wave.
They're moving their body.
They're adjusting, they'remaking adjustments as we go.
(40:58):
And that's why our bodies are sokey here.
Our brains want a fucking listto check it off.
And you know, our brains areextremely susceptible to all of
the messaging we have from ourculture.
And again, I'm not trying toshame our brains.
They're, they're doing theirjob.
They're trying to keep us safe.
But our bodies, our bodies arewhat know how to heal.
Val (41:18):
Yes.
And as a part of that, as partycoping mechanisms, we've talked
about a lot of things
Kat (41:23):
already.
Val (41:24):
Also rituals, Can we get a
Kat (41:26):
circle.
Val (41:26):
to that?
I ask clients when there's beena big thing that's going on.
Is there a ritual that you cando that might help move or shift
something commemorate?
Memorialize is there, you know,a lot of like the burning
something like that, we'll getto that next.
Week's ever burn baby burn.
(41:46):
Do we need to burn some shit?
We almost burned some shit thatwas leftover from the
Kat (41:50):
relationship
Val (41:50):
you know?
Or is there something that willhelp you
Kat (41:54):
to move up.
Yeah.
but sometimes we're in so muchpain, we're just grasping for
whatever.
And I think we're in that stage,it's better to just be still and
try to sooth.
Right.
And then sometimes the, theenergy is too intense.
And so you're like, okay,stillness is making me feel
worse.
And so you're like, okay, wellI'm going to move my body.
Val (42:10):
What, feels
Kat (42:11):
good?
What kind of movement feelsgood?
And then, once you're likethrough that intense crest of
the wave, you can settle intowell, what is going to pull me
out of the dark sadness.
And so you gather these lists.
I like that you have everyonewrite these lists.
And would you say the threedifferent things can cause
they're all a little differentaren't they
Val (42:28):
Self-soothing So how do you feel better?
Self-nurturing what things makeyou feel alive when Nurture.
your soul curious And then selfcare, like what are the things,
you know, like I talked aboutthe plant stick before.
right?
What are those three things?
And it's so funny, minor, likewhy.
Laughter and protein the thingsthat keep me going, right.
(42:52):
water.
Laughter protein so I askedpeople to, To make the list.
One thing that they they'd beenthinking about that might be
good.
Let me try it.
And one thing that they know isnot good.
Before we go, I also want totalk about, Reorganization.
Kat (43:06):
I just underlined that.
I was like, let's get to
Val (43:08):
Let's get to that.
Cause you really liked that whenI told you about it.
So we're going to link herwebsite, Jill Johnson, young.
is a therapist who reallyfocuses on grief.
I think She has a book or apodcast called the rebellious
widow or something like that.
I know I liked that it talks alot about grief.
And I took one of her trainingsand she talked about people who
were able to continue to live afull life after experiencing
(43:30):
loss, what they did was theywere able to reorganize their
life after the loss.
So reorganization I think issuch a great phrase
Kat (43:41):
Concept.
So, so grief can alter us,
Val (43:44):
like it
Kat (43:45):
us.
And then we can, part of thehealing process is making peace
with the alteration.
And then that includes, like, Ithought my life was going to
look like this.
I thought it was going toinclude my dad.
I thought it was going toinclude children in my life.
And my dad, no, my children.
Right.
And so like the, the grief thatalters us, it alters our reality
and it alters who we are.
(44:06):
Right.
And then the process of makingpeace with that, I think can be
really profound.
And then, you've got to decidethat I'm still alive.
So what the fuck I'm going todo?
Am I going to curl up and die orI'm going to like still find a
way to live.
That is actually incredibly
Val (44:22):
difficult.
It's incredibly difficult.
And I think it can be incrediblypowering if you can get,
Kat (44:29):
yeah.
Well, that's the thing myperspective on like terrible
things happen.
We don't want them to happen andit's not trying to like turn
everything rosy, but like, I dolove who I am today and I did
experience all of that fuckingshit.
Right.
I don't know who I would havebeen if I didn't experience
that, but I love who I am today.
And I accept myself for himtoday in the, all of the
alterations and all of thecolors and all of the, the shape
(44:51):
of who I am.
Right.
Like I love me.
And so every bit of it getsredeemed because I fucking love
myself.
And I think that's, that's whatI was trying to
Val (45:00):
say earlier,
Kat (45:01):
know, like, yeah.
I w when great, if I didn't haveall that fucking trauma, right.
I love me and I have beenaltered and I've come back
Val (45:11):
swinging,
Kat (45:11):
you know, like sure.
I get knocked down, but I get upagain.
Val (45:17):
I can knock down, but I get up again.
Okay.
I think I'm feeling what you'resaying.
It's kind of just beenintegrated.
into who you are and thereforeyou love it.
Kat (45:28):
I love
Val (45:29):
like, you all love
Kat (45:30):
Yeah.
And I've made peace and I'veaccepted these truths and I, I'm
not rejecting any part of me,even the traumatized part.
I'm not
Val (45:36):
rejecting it.
and the loss,
Kat (45:38):
Yeah.
And I've had to re I've had toreorganize my life so many
fucking times and I, you know,there's this meme about I don't
want to be resilient and Iunderstand the point of that.
I didn't want to have to beresilient, but man, it's a
fucking skill.
I am very resilient, you know,and I still feel all my fucking
feelings.
It's weird because I've healedenough to feel all my feelings
(46:00):
and God damn motherfucker.
It's a lot.
Val (46:04):
It is a lot.
And it can also move us into aspace of agency and power.
Right.
If we can do it.
Then we have the agency and thepower to rewrite the story.
Right.
Have an alternative ending.
Like they have in the movies.
Right.
What's the alternative ending.
How can life be since this thingdidn't happen.
Right.
And I think that there's power,there's a whole thing.
(46:25):
Narrative therapy is all aboutfocusing on the story, the story
we tell ourselves, and that weactually have the power to
change that story, make themeaning we want it to make, you
know, and how do we reorganize?
How do we move on from here?
How do you realize that thingsare
Kat (46:41):
changed?
Right.
Val (46:43):
And, how do we
Kat (46:44):
move forward?
Yeah.
And maybe you didn't want thechange, but it doesn't mean it
didn't
Val (46:47):
change.
Okay.
So interesting.
I've talked about radicalacceptance I think on the
podcast before, and even thatcomes out of the DBT.
if you're like a therapy junkieIn that book, they cite the
Kubler-Ross stages of grief.
The acceptance.
So radical acceptance is reallybuilding off of that.
And I'll just say it again, thatradical acceptance knows that
(47:07):
there's going to be suffering inthe world and in life.
And what we're trying to do isreduce suffering and have an
experience with the pain.
And so we have choices.
We can, one change thesituation.
Is there any way to get out ofthis terrible situation that
we're in?
Number two, can we see itdifferently?
Can we reframe it Right.
Is there a different way to lookat this.
(47:27):
That feels good.
Number three.
We can accept it, radicallyaccept.
This is what it is.
I don't like it.
I don't want it, but it is whatit is.
And if I accept it, I can moveforward.
Or The fourth choice is to staystuck and to just be like, I
don't want it.
Nope.
It's not happening.
Little kids do that all thetime.
Right.
They're just like, Hmm.
if I don't look at it, it's notthere.
Kat (47:49):
And that's allowed you to, that's part of it for awhile.
That's the put your head in thesand That's okay.
As soon as you're ready to comeup for error, let's
Val (47:56):
reorganize Yeah.
Kat (47:58):
and then find some
Val (47:59):
humans.
Oh, some good humans that makeyou feel good, that support, you
that understand validate
Kat (48:04):
that can have a fucking real
Val (48:05):
conversation Hmm.
Yeah.
I was joking, I think in anotherepisode about this meme I saw
that said why don't we call it?
Emotional baggage we missed agreat opportunity for humor.
We should've called it our griefcase.
And I just love that Funny,smart humor.
And I do ask clients like, whatare you going to put in
Kat (48:24):
your briefcase,
Val (48:26):
especially when you lose someone, or something, what
things do you want to take withyou how are you sort of packing
up after
Kat (48:33):
it's all over?
Val (48:34):
What are you taking with you and what aren't you taking
with you?
Because sometimes there'sexpectations, we've heard people
say, like, I have to do it.
Cause my, you know, my dad wouldhave wanted it or, this is what
he thought that was supposed tobe for my life.
You can decide, do you want totake that with you?
Or do you lay that down?
Kat (48:50):
Well, is it resonant with what you're doing and
reorganizing your own life?
Val (48:54):
so I did a guest podcasting with this one young woman, her
podcast is called good grief.
Jessie.
and She lost literally everyonein her nuclear family.
one by one.
How is she reorganizing?
and moving?
She's created a podcast thattalks in an irreverent, like
funny way about grief, so that'sone example of how she's taken
(49:16):
that.
with her.
And brought that, grief with herprobably for the rest of her.
life.
Kat (49:20):
Right.
Good job.
Val (49:21):
Ooh, that's
Kat (49:22):
We did a Val, I think we're wrapping up now.
Val (49:25):
I think we are.
And it was, sprawling and messyand, and amazing.
And intense.
Kat (49:31):
what's bringing you some pleasure.
Val (49:32):
today.
Hmm.
I think just being able to talkabout, these things, you know
one of our faithful listeners,he calls after every podcast.
I just mean so much to me.
And I think that he's justreally thanking us for our
vulnerability to share aboutthese things and his experiences
might be different, but thethemes are, resonating.
(49:53):
And it's bringing our friendshipcloser, like this is a form of
alchemy to putting this out inthe world all the grief that
we've experienced and passingthat along and sharing that with
others, I think is reallybringing me a lot of pleasure.
right now.
What about you?
Kat (50:09):
Well, this sounds a little strange, but like, Just crying
with you as my like
Val (50:14):
kind friend
Kat (50:15):
it's oddly pleasure.
Like to be witnessed, to be sosafe, I feel super safe.
Right.
And then I feel honored in mystory and in my journey and in
my pain.
Right.
So like, that's the beautifulthing of like, you know, we talk
about these three questions andhow you deepen your relationship
with other people.
And we are all constantlyevolving.
I mean, if we choose to right,you could make the choice not
(50:37):
to, but it feels really goodevolve with other safe humans.
And like, it feels really goodthat we've cultivated this
friendship.
And so in a strange way, itfeels like, like pleasure to be
exposed and vulnerable with youand with our
Val (50:51):
listeners.
Yeah.
Thank you for going along thisjourney with us, we love, you
Kat (50:57):
listeners.
We're so glad you're here.
We appreciate you so
Val (51:00):
much.
in Malibu cat.
Kat (51:02):
I love you, Val.
Bye.
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
(00:34):
Oh, yeah.
Kat (00:35):
I about,
Val (00:37):
I thought that we were going to start this episode.
Just kind of calm and somberbecause we have a somber topic.
It's a heavy topic,
Kat (00:45):
but we're going to lighten it up.
Val (00:47):
You just asked me what?
what did you just
Kat (00:49):
Well, I was looking at my notes and I just wrote the word
dads and it's underlined.
And I was like, why didn't Iwrite dads
Val (00:57):
and I had to remind you, cause we have dead dads.
That's why you wrote thatbecause we have dead dads.
Welcome to the grief episodemotherfuckers you got so grief.
Let's just
Kat (01:13):
gets better.
It gets better.
Val (01:17):
This is just the AdRoll books.
Oh my gosh.
Kat (01:23):
Val, I love you so
Val (01:25):
I love you.
Kat (01:27):
Everybody.
Val is the most wonderful,bright red lips today.
It just is making me
Val (01:31):
It's because I have my Parisian white and black striped
shirt on, so
Kat (01:35):
took a picture.
I'm going to put it on theInstagram.
Val (01:37):
yay.
I have a good hair day.
too.
Kat (01:38):
Yeah.
You look gorgeous.
Val (01:42):
And your hair is.
growing in and you've dyed itand it looks fabulous.
I love it.
I do.
I love, I love that you dyed it
Kat (01:51):
yeah, it looks better than I do.
Val (01:53):
So today we thought we would talk about grief and I
thought, I'd say a few things inthe beginning here.
Just that I think like allthings we, we deal with these
topics, with vulnerability.
We can get deep
Kat (02:09):
you.
Of course we can.
Val (02:10):
There might be some tears.
I've been crying.
recently a lot about stuff.
Yeah.
I freaked out my husband.
the other day.
Kat (02:17):
Good.
He needs to get rattled once inawhile.
Val (02:19):
but he's better.
Remember in former episodes.
I said, he's doing just enough.
He was actually doing even alittle more than just enough,
but I've trained him that Likeif I cry it's okay.
Like it's it's all right.
It's just tears.
Kat (02:31):
have to train everybody that too.
I do.
I cry a lot.
Val (02:34):
So he said, he said, it's okay.
if you want to cry baby cry.
We're going to treat thesetopics with irreverent humor,
Kat (02:41):
have to, I think that's the main coping mechanism
Val (02:44):
I do.
Kat (02:44):
Yeah.
Because you have to anchor ontosomething, otherwise the grief
and despair can swallow you up,but we don't want that.
Val (02:52):
I think it's a way to switch your brain into, you
know, we talk about negative andpositive thinking and how to
retrain your brain, to startthinking more positively.
I think you could retrain yourbrain to see some more of the
humor in life.
And Again, it's kind of likethat narrative therapy, we get
to create our own stories, andthe meaning that we make out of
things.
So I just find that it feels somuch better in my body.
(03:14):
I actually was laughing with my93 year old grandmother.
about sort of.
hi-jinks that might, my youngestbrother's getting into and kind
of how he decides to live hislife.
And she's just Like, you know,we're laughing about it.
It's, it's a serious thing, butit's better than crying that
gene went through her down thefamily tree.
We're going to use a Reverendhumor and I'm gonna reference
one, a grief expert, and I wasjust on her website and I saw a
(03:36):
little video about researchabout, humor in, in grief.
So
Kat (03:41):
I read it lots of places too.
Like we're not just making it,we don't make this shit up.
People were well read.
Val (03:48):
And so, we thought it was a good time to talk about grief
for many reasons, personal andalso collectively.
right.
And we'd like these episodes tokind of be evergreen or
timeless.
If you're listening to this inthe future, we're not going to
talk a lot about the currentevents.
I think We're justacknowledging.
But if you're listening to thisin the future, the context in
(04:09):
which we're talking about ourcollective grieve, there's been
an uptick in mass shootings.
There's some Supreme courtdecisions that are possibly
taking away.
rights.
We're still in like this postCOVID.
Kat (04:24):
Hm, but not post it's.
Yeah.
Val (04:26):
it's still
Kat (04:27):
It's still here and people are fatigued and exhausted and
Val (04:31):
And then there's a war.
in Russia and Ukraine, Andthat's devastating
Kat (04:35):
other parts of the world too.
Val (04:36):
And there's so many other things that, you know, listen,
there's a, V like something, I'msure that's more at the center
of your experience.
that We could add to this.
list, But that's the context inwhich we're sort of talking
about.
It's a dark time,
Kat (04:51):
It is.
And that's, what's so sort offascinating about grief is that
we live in a culture that wedon't have good outlets for it.
Like our culture really wants usto deny and repress it all.
And so then if you have anylike, personal grief in the
midst of this, like collectivesort of soup of trauma and grief
and loss, and then, you know,again, like reoccurring trauma
(05:14):
too, right?
Val (05:15):
The
Kat (05:15):
The, mash, this is reoccurring, so this is this
whole other thing that many ofus don't have skills yet to cope
with really.
And so when then you havesomething personal in your life
too, on top of that.
And so we just thought we'regoing to like, do our best to
share some of our helpful ideas.
Val (05:32):
Yeah.
And this is a part of how we'redealing with our grief Is making
art
Kat (05:37):
isn't it.
It's self-expression for sure.
Val (05:38):
And so much catharsis in
Kat (05:40):
And community together, and
Val (05:42):
And I hope our laughter I did have one listener say, can
you just make a really longlaugh, track?
Oh, okay.
pick a ball update.
There's a, there's an oldergentleman.
Oh Actually.
The first day I met him, he waslaughing and then someone's
like, oh, he just lost his wifeThe other day, I was like, oh
shit but he has like such aunique laugh and cause I also
(06:03):
was like teased about my love byadults.
By pastors.
Yeah.
Kat (06:08):
stupid
Val (06:08):
I don't know
Kat (06:10):
So awful.
Val (06:11):
Who makes fun of a child Who's laughing Yeah.
They said, Oh, I thought yougrew out of
Kat (06:16):
of that.
Shut up.
Oh, I hate
Val (06:18):
Yeah,
Kat (06:18):
who they are.
Val (06:21):
they're dead too.
We're talking a lot about today,this just lovely pickleball
gentlemen, they were like, oh,have you, Valerie, have you met
so-and-so?
And I'm like, oh yeah, I know.
I know.
So-and-so I'm like we're in theamazing laugh club.
together.
I said you didn't know that.
(06:43):
So they all laughed.
And I thought that washilarious.
I feel like you should have justlaughed a little
Kat (06:48):
bit more.
Val (06:48):
you just made that up in my head.
Kat (06:57):
I was waiting for them to be like more, like he said
something next.
I didn't know that the story wasover.
Val (07:03):
No, that was the genius.
I was like, should I know him?
Kat (07:07):
We're an amazing lab club.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
Val (07:11):
That's all right.
I just want it to be honest,just get that out.
I didn't want to hold thatgrudge against you.
Anyway, everybody laughed.
And I was like, yeah, you didn'tsee his membership card.
And then I just felt good aboutit.
Cause I made everyone laugh.
Yes.
Thank you.
Kat (07:27):
All right.
I have to confess
Val (07:28):
something.
Oh boy.
Kat (07:29):
Yeah.
Like in the midst of thisfucking soup of collective grief
guests.
Well, you already know
Val (07:35):
Oh, I know I'll play along for the sake of our listeners
though.
What has happened, cat?
Kat (07:40):
I experienced a breakup that really broke my fucking
heart.
Yeah.
And so then I was like, this isthe worst.
I hate it so much.
Oh, but you know what?
I have a fucking podcast and youknow what else?
I'm going to Taylor swift allover you mother fuckers.
(08:02):
And so yeah, you want to dateme?
You better be prepared.
'cause I have a God damn fuckingplatform with thousands of
downloads.
Val (08:15):
yes.
told the pickup ballers, theyall want to listen to the
podcast.
I'm like, I'm not sure guys, ifthis is your cup of tea, but I
was like, look, You might be init, if you've been said
something really funny or reallyrude.
Okay.
you might be in it.
So watch out, watch how youtreat me folks.
Kat (08:33):
everybody,
Val (08:34):
watch out.
Kat (08:35):
you all watch yourselves.
Oh my Yes.
Val (08:39):
Yes.
Dear friend, you have been goingthrough A lot of heartache in
the midst of this, in the midstof also some really wonderful
things like our podcasts,launching.
I mean,
Kat (08:49):
so what we decided is we're going to talk about grief today
and it was going to be a littlebit more like some overview of
how to cope with grief.
And then next week I'm gonnalike, watch out,
Val (08:59):
set your DVRs.
Kat (09:03):
This is a fucking teaser.
Val (09:05):
Yes.
Good job.
I'm I'm excited for thatepisode.
Oh yeah.
I
Kat (09:10):
have some real insights about like how to
Val (09:12):
do
Kat (09:12):
with a breakup.
You are very wise, Val.
I mean, people who want somesupport in their relationship
should definitely seek you out.
Val (09:20):
I mean, I've been on fire.
This, week.
I just want to say, I
Kat (09:24):
your clients are so
Val (09:25):
I feel like therapists don't get a chance to like show
out and be like, oh, Maybe theydo.
Maybe I'm just not doing it.
But yeah, it was like, Ooh, Itold One client.
You need to have a breakupritual.
when you're out there dating,and she was like, oh yeah.
I felt that too.
You need to do something.
And we're going to talk aboutrituals to how powerful they can
be We've done this full swingback and forth.
(09:47):
from like, Oh, rituals are emptyand we don't need them to like
they help us shift.
and move things.
Kat (09:55):
And if it's somehow personal, you're like, that's
the whole thing of like, if itfeels resonant, see, this is why
you got to be in touch with yourfucking body.
Is it resonant with you?
Then it will be meaningful ifit's just this thing that people
are doing over there.
Does it mean anything to you?
Of course it's
Val (10:08):
Right.
Oh yes.
There's little Pearl of
Kat (10:11):
fucking engaged in your own goddamn healing, your own
goddamn life.
Val (10:15):
Okay.
So can we just talk about grief?
For a minute, what it is andwhat it isn't
Kat (10:21):
let's get into it.
Val (10:22):
I love just watching sort of our evolution as a society.
and What what comes into likeour social discourse?
When I started doing therapyabout 10 years ago, clients had
never heard the word self-care Ihad to explain that isn't, that,
that was just under 10 years.
ago.
So the things that we're talkingabout and, I feel like what
doctors feel like with Webb andD you know, I have clients
(10:43):
coming and saying like, well,you know, I Googled all this and
like, this is what I found, butwhat do you think?
Kat (10:47):
Yeah,
Val (10:48):
so I think we are getting a bit better at understanding what
grief is, when Kobe Bryant died,right.
The basketball player Peoplewere asking how can I feel so
deeply, over somebody that Inever met.
Right.
But I think that we know whatgrief is when it's a loss of a
parent or a child or a lovedone.
But then all the other griefs, Idon't think that we're really
(11:12):
that great at spotting.
but they're affecting us.
Kat (11:14):
are.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
And so I just want to say too,it's capitalism's fault, stupid
fucking white supremacy,colonialism, bullshit.
You know, the idea that you needto like go to work and put most
of your humanity away so thatyou can be productive for this
other entity.
Right.
It's asked all of us over andover and over again to separate
(11:36):
ourselves from our emotional
Val (11:39):
It does create dissonance doesn't it.
Like I have to show up and dothis.
Like, what does this even mean,job?
And put all my humanity aside toproduce.
Kat (11:50):
We all have grown up in this environment.
And so it's not, that surprisingthat it's difficult for most of
us to engage with grief, youknow?
And then you were talking aboutVal, I really appreciate that.
You've said this.
It has been so helpful to me.
You said that.
Dissonance creates
Val (12:05):
trauma.
Kat (12:07):
And so that's what's happening is that.
Val (12:10):
you know,
Kat (12:10):
I even think about like when it was time to send the
kids back to school, right?
Like people really wanted my kidto be at school every single
day.
And my kid has ADHD and theschool is a little bit chaotic
because of how many timesteachers are out and admins are
out because of COVID and sothere's a lot of inconsistency
and I know that everyone's doingtheir best, but my kid just has
(12:33):
their own set of unique needs.
And then those needs were notable to be fostered enough.
So my
Val (12:39):
because we were in a pandemic
Kat (12:41):
know, so I can use to stay home and reset and I'm like,
that's okay with me.
I don't care that much aboutlike their academic success as a
fourth grader, when there aresome big picture things that we
don't even know how this impactsall of us.
Right.
But then like people that are init, they're like attendance is
only 91%.
I was thinking about roofing.
I was like, ah, that's a fuckinga get the fuck.
(13:03):
Like my job is to make sure mykid is emotionally.
Well, you know, not just liketell them they have to.
Disappear part of themselves tosit there, button a chair and
pay attention.
Val (13:14):
Right.
Kat (13:15):
Don't try to convince me that I should believe that your
particular story when I'm theone that lives with my child,
you know what I mean?
And I'm like, that createsdissonance.
but there's enough of them thatfelt a little gas lady.
Honestly.
Listen, people we're still inthis shit.
What kind of hoops?
(13:36):
Did you jump through to get tothe conclusion that we have to
soldier on?
I don't know.
They're not nearly as I'mjudging their body as I am when
the plug is,
Val (13:44):
Well, and then we also have just have to survive.
Right?
And capitalism is like, youjust, you have to work.
And I've actually had a fewclients and friends recently
talk about how their bosses Soreadily dismissed their grief
because it wasn't a spouse orsomething, You know, It's
interesting.
You talk about dissonance, likewalking through the world, even
just when we've called out howwhite supremacy, affects us all,
(14:08):
but obviously more for moremarginalized groups and just the
dissonance of like a friend wastelling me, I'm trying my best.
And yet there's this ideal ofthe white male, pattern that you
have to fit in there was such adissonance of well, I'm trying
my best, but it feels like thetarget.
I can never meet it because I'mnot that.
right.
Or even when my dad died it wasabout.
(14:30):
Hm, four months before nine 11.
And My dad died very suddenly.
I was about 25.
He was very young.
And I remember sitting in myliving room watching the news
about nine 11 but I was like,yeah, now, you know how I
Kat (14:46):
feel
Val (14:47):
And obviously I was devastated about nine 11, too.
Right.
But I remember sitting therejust in my grief, in my
devastation.
And then it was like the wholeworld was devastated.
The whole world caught up towhere I was.
and There was less dissonance.
I wasn't the only one grieving.
And the whole world was grievingalong with me.
Kat (15:08):
Yeah.
Val (15:09):
We don't realize that grief, takes energy
Kat (15:12):
so much
Val (15:13):
energy.
so much energy, Right.
And so we need to make shiftsand changes and have
self-compassion.
And I have a friend who wastrying to take care of himself
after multiple friends died andwork is just like, I don't get
it.
I don't get it.
They're your friends.
which, Which is just terriblyinhumane.
But he's trying to take care ofhimself in that knowing he needs
(15:36):
more time off.
So I think one, we want to justremind everyone.
If you're grieving, if yourheart is heavy to take some
time.
And really take care of yourselfin those times,
Kat (15:47):
what was the other thing you talked about in one of our
other episodes the ability tosit in the discomfort.
You had a cool phrase for thatwhat's that called?
Val (15:54):
Distress tolerance.
Kat (15:56):
So, so I think that might be a muscle that we, can learn
to grow in.
So when you're in grief oryou're experiencing any kind of
pain say the phrase again.
Val (16:07):
distress tolerance.
Kat (16:09):
It there's this thing that when we're in it, it feels like
this is forever.
Cause it's so
Val (16:13):
intense.
Kat (16:14):
But when you realize, oh, I've lived through some shit and
actually this is not forever,you know?
I loved the words, distresstolerance, for some reason, they
felt like something I could justgrab on to in that moment so it
doesn't mean like whiteknuckling, it just stress
tolerance.
It means you're feeling yourfeelings and you're like, I can
still survive and this is notgoing to be forever.
(16:35):
I can endure this, this I'mfeeling it.
And it is absolutelyuncomfortable.
It really does hurt, but also.
I'm still here.
I'm okay.
And this is not going to beforever.
And those kinds of things, whenyou're really in it, just
remembering that and thatoffering yourself as much
kindness and softness andgentleness as you can, you know?
Val (16:57):
Yeah.
And the way I introduce it toclients, I say, it's a reminder
it is a muscle we have theability to tolerate distress.
Emotions are like waves.
and They, ebb and they flow andthey don't stay as intense as
the peak.
How do you tolerate.
Distract sooth.
Co-regulate we've talked aboutthat before.
(17:18):
There are so many ways and toolsthat we have at our disposal to
really ride those waves.
of grief.
Kat (17:25):
And I remember I was 29 when my dad died.
He also died suddenly.
And the intensity of the wavesand that was my first experience
with that kind of grief.
And so I remember like being outin public with I was dating my
husband back then and we were atsome event and some of his
family was meeting them for thefirst time.
And I had to like ask to leaveearly, We were just like at this
(17:48):
event.
And I just, Crumbled.
And it was so painfullyuncomfortable to have that
experience out in public.
And then, it was reallyfortunate that he was like,
yeah, let's go, that's fine.
it did eventually start to, besomething that I could manage,
but my life changed in thatthose grieving months, you know?
And then over, the years, it'sgotten a lot less intense
(18:10):
obviously.
So one of the things Iappreciated that you said was
that all coping mechanisms areon the table when we're
experiencing grief.
Do you want to say more about
Val (18:18):
Well, sure.
Can I say before that can I saygrief is
Kat (18:21):
wild.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Unpredictable
Val (18:26):
It makes us do a wild.
day.
Kat (18:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (18:29):
And there's some great tools out there, like the stages
of grief.
Right, You've probably heard ofthat Kubler-Ross started with
the five stages of grief.
We think oh, their stages, theycome one after another but
actually they're wild.
It's going back and forth.
up and down, They don't.
And I
Kat (18:44):
ping pong
Val (18:45):
ping-pong, I think it's helpful to go like, oh, okay.
I'm in my anger.
I'm you know, in a
Kat (18:51):
depression, I can relate to that.
Yeah, for sure.
Val (18:54):
So they kind of go back and forth and you think okay, I'm
good.
And then another
Kat (18:58):
lady.
Val (18:58):
right?
I always talk about healing andgrowth and, realizations come
Kat (19:03):
in layers
Val (19:03):
So I think I would love to see us realize that grief is
not.
Just something to be gonethrough as quickly as possible.
Okay, let's see what level ofgrief.
This is like if you sprainedyour ankle?
Oh, okay.
this is a mild sprain.
So it should be you know, right.
That grief actually can staywith us our whole life.
(19:26):
And I think that that can feelscary, but I think that if we
realize that it will dissipatein its severity, but we carry
around this loss.
For the rest of our lives.
And that's okay.
Kat (19:38):
is.
And you, sort of, youaccommodate it, it becomes
integrated and, you also cankind of be friended.
It's interesting.
We think of negative emotions aslike something to be avoided at
all costs because we don't knowhow to deal with them honestly.
But what I have noticed is thatwhen we can befriend those
emotions they teach us profoundthings and, they're like
(20:00):
companions that like are notfrivolous.
Does that make sense?
They like, I don't know if thatmakes any sense, but it makes me
feel more grounded to know thatI've lived through the loss of a
parent at a young age, you know?
When I'm interacting with otherhumans that are experiencing
grief and loss, I can tap rightinto that.
I know what that feels like.
And then I get to hold spacewith someone else.
(20:21):
And so it makes me closer to thehumans in my life, you
Val (20:24):
Right.
And loss is just a part of life.
I think we can border on thesort of toxic positivity or the
oh, everything happens for areason.
or, Oh, there must have been a
Kat (20:34):
plan because all that
Val (20:35):
Right, Right, I just think that yes, we can see how grief
has shaped us and even thepositive.
Like, you saying that we canrelate to people it's almost
like a complexity in the depthIt gives your
Kat (20:48):
life.
It does.
Val (20:49):
But I guess we're saying that at the same time, it's not
the toxic positivity of like,oh, I'm so glad this happened
because now I can empathize withpeople.
No, It's that, Hey, thisterrible thing happened.
I have no control over that.
And also because we've done ourhealing work, Yeah.
Look at the depth, Look at WhatI've learned
Kat (21:06):
from it.
Yeah.
it's not black and white.
It's both.
And and that's, where the toxicpositivity gets in as they're
trying to push you all the wayover into one.
Life is so fucking nuanced.
it's all of it all mixedtogether at once.
Yeah.
I know that big grief in my lifehas also been a catalyst for
change for me.
So like my body, when I wasdiagnosed with a chronic illness
(21:26):
and ended up being a hugecatalyst for a lot of spiritual,
like awakening experiences.
And then even when my dad died,the timing of it was really
interesting, but that is whatreally began my deconstruction.
Yeah there was something aboutpeople were saying fucking
platitudes to me, you know, thatGod knows.
And then my dad, wasn't the onlyone to die.
(21:47):
There was two other paternalsort of figures in my life that
also died in that quicksuccession.
I was angry and anger has beensomething difficult for me to
hold onto my whole life.
I think, as a coping mechanism,decided to like be pleasing as
opposed to like really hold anyof the anger that, you know
there's plenty for me to havebeen angry about.
(22:09):
But that was the first time inmy life.
I was really angry.
I was forced to confront a lotof dissonance
Val (22:17):
Well sure.
because religion is supposed toBe there for us in those
moments.
Kat (22:21):
But also the grief was so profound that it shook
everything in me.
And so it shook me
Val (22:29):
up.
Kat (22:30):
Yeah.
And so If you zoom out, you canbe like, oh, my dad died.
And so then I deconstruct fromChristianity.
Isn't that great.
But no, that's exactly what itfelt like, but it was like my
world shattered and I had tofind out how to rebuild it.
Right.
You and I were talking aboutthat too.
Like, there's this, what thefuck do I do now?
Right.
And so what was happening isthat I had this intense pain of
(22:51):
loss that I wasn't expecting.
And then also suddenly thisworldview doesn't resonate like
it did before.
Then I had to fucking deal withthat too.
And then in my story ended upbeing the early part of my
marriage.
And I was like, oh fuck.
I was really grateful to have mythen husband, because, in a lot
(23:12):
of ways, he was such a giftthrough that, through that
grief.
But what happened was with thedeconstruction is that I became
aware of like, oh, I have tosomehow stay at Christian.
So to help me with my angrygrief, I found a Christian
therapist who was a realtherapist and not just someone
was going to give me platitudes.
And they were the ones thatreally helped with the
deconstruction, because I wasexpressing all this dissonance
(23:33):
and they're like, you know, lotsof Christian people don't take
the Bible literally.
And I was like,
Val (23:38):
what?
yes.
Kat (23:40):
So at that season of my life, I was committed to like, I
need to stay a Christian cause Iwant to be married to this man.
But yeah.
So grief it just is right.
It's going to be part of it.
All right.
We can sit with it and be withit and then it, can have beauty
is what I'm trying
Val (23:54):
to say.
Kat (23:55):
Like, and again, it's not that I'm being overly positive.
It's that in everything weexperience in life, it can be
transmuted into somethingfucking.
Val (24:02):
radiant.
I have to admit, and I thinkthis is, what our podcast
Kat (24:05):
is about.
Val (24:06):
I don't feel that way about the things that I have
Kat (24:09):
went through.
Val (24:09):
at all.
I just don't like my dad dying.
Nope.
Just It's just a tragedy.
I mean, like, right.
It's just It's a tragedy.
It was a health tragedy.
That had a real effect on a lotof people.
I think some of the beautifulthings that came of it was I
still have people.
And I think one of our long-termlisteners friend from, high
(24:31):
school, they'll still talk aboutmy dad was one of the best men
they ever knew.
Actually in his hospital room, Iremember.
The young men coming in, youknow, he helped me so much and
he was there for me.
The legacy, or we've talkedabout clean pain and dirty pain.
Like, I didn't have trauma withmy dad.
I was a daddy's girl.
We had a great
Kat (24:50):
room.
Val (24:51):
There's a lot of sadness that he never met Rafiq.
He never Met my brother's wife,you know, never met his
grandkids.
The grief that my mom stilllives with the way it affected
my younger brother and mygrandmother.
And, and I don't know, I guessI've just contrasting your
experience with mine, right?
So to have the.
full Spectrum of experiences,but and I don't feel like it did
(25:13):
anything.
No great awakenings, no,nothing.
I mean, that was 25, again, nine11 happened.
I did have a premonition.
that I remember we talked aboutthese, knowings.
I had, I say it in the otherepisode, I was actually at a
funeral.
Well, my dad was probably havinga stroke I was doing my pastoral
duties.
It was for a young person.
(25:34):
Their grandmother had died andthey wanted me to come support
them.
And I was sitting there lookingat the picture of the woman,
living into her old age.
And I remember thinking That'snot going to be my dad Wow.
I think the exact same time.
He was probably.
dying.
And so of course we had no cellphones then, And so I got home
when there was a message.
on the answering machine.
(25:56):
And So again, we talked abouthow these little knowings maybe
prepare us.
I was at peace with even thatknowing cause he had some health
problems, but it was still avery sudden thing.
So I'm grateful for that.
And you know, that's the firsttime, that I went on
antidepressants the depth of thegrief and I don't know at that
young age, like if I even wasable to go to the depths of it
(26:18):
and to be very honest with youfor being like a very process
oriented person, I feel like oneof the ways that I, I think I've
dealt with the profound grief.
is I'm.
Yeah.
He's gone.
And I don't, I don't know ifit's not my personality, I have
such great like childhoodmemories and stories, and get my
(26:39):
humor from him, I married, likea Brazilian version of my dad.
My mom was the first one topoint that out.
I have cousins who, on theanniversary of their father's
death, like post this bigFacebook you know, dad, I miss
you so much.
I don't know if I don't do itbecause it's not my personality
or if it would hurt too much, orif it feels cheesy, to me or
it's too sophisticated.
(26:59):
for that.
And I like to tell stories abouthim, but yeah, it's sometimes
I've wondered about that.
Like have I, and I have I alsocheated myself of something by
just
Kat (27:09):
going to be in like,
Val (27:10):
yep.
He's gone.
I'm from a family that doesn'ttalk about emotions too, much,
that's why this all feels veryfreeing to me.
that we Just don't talk
Kat (27:19):
about things.
Val (27:20):
And so maybe that was a little bit part of it, or maybe
it was my grease.
I thought I would be swallowedup by losing this man you know,
that I love so much.
So early.
So I don't know, even theinfertility, it's like, yeah, I
don't know.
I don't think it's given meanything except for, I've.
I think like that.
Kat (27:38):
alchemy,
Val (27:39):
you turn it into like, love the life you have.
I want to make sure we talkabout everyday
Kat (27:43):
grief.
Val (27:44):
Can we really recognize the everyday grief and go, oh, I
need to grieve that.
It's just recognizing it,allowing it to pass through and
calling it as such.
Like I, When I started cryingyesterday, the coffee shop, it
was because I saw this olderlady and I love the older ladies
of Northern California becausethey've done some
Kat (28:04):
shit.
Val (28:05):
They've like hiked Mount Kilimanjaro.
You could be sitting next tosomeone in a coffee shop.
And then I think I heard thislady say, well, what I really
want to do is go to Antarctica.
in the winter, which Maybesuggests that she's been in.
summer or spring.
And how, I don't know.
She was saying there was condomseverywhere.
(28:25):
like in like the.
I want to say.
Space station.
but that's not the right word.
There's nothing else to do.
there.
I guess it's like, they give youa pregnancy test If you're going
to be there.
over the winter.
Cause they can't get you out ofThere but there's this lady and
she's like one of those cyclistswith like the little mirror.
attached to her Elvis, you know,those, And I was like, dang, I
(28:46):
want to have this vitality intomy golden years.
But my body has felt like in hisage since I've been 20 years old
since I've been diagnosed.
And just that grief for like,how am I going to keep playing
pickleball when it just, I couldbarely walk this morning?
after playing yesterday.
Right.
And when my emotions are on thetop, I just cry about it, I'm
grieving something and I have tobe careful.
(29:08):
Right?
I talk about anticipatoryanxiety and this is anticipatory
grief.
when We're trying to predict thefuture and we're grieving over
something that may or may not
Kat (29:17):
happen.
Val (29:18):
Even the last couple of days, like we had friends here.
And I was like, okay, I think Ihave to go home and rest, this
shopping is fun, but I think I'mdone And just that loss of
ability.
We learned during COVID, I thinkit got into the social Discourse
about grieving things thatdidn't happen.
grieving your graduation, thatdidn't happen.
grieving, You know, all the babyshowers and and family dinners
(29:40):
that we missed out.
And that It's okay.
To grieve things that neverhappened.
We got to grieve those things,people, it's real
Kat (29:48):
well, we have to create space to do it too.
And then like acknowledge itbecause these things will pass
through our body.
Right.
Well, feel a thing.
And then in the moment where youhave that little like, welling
of oh my God, am I going to cryright now?
Right.
do you like take a beat and say,wow, well what's showing up for
me right now.
And the only way to do that isto actually create some space in
(30:09):
our life.
Yeah.
And again, we're pushing againstreally loud messages from the
culture we live in because ourculture.
It's very toxic and broken,especially around these, these,
the idea of living embodied is,is very contrary to what we've
been indoctrinated with incapitalist society.
And so, whatever our grief is.
(30:31):
I just want us to acknowledge,it literally is everywhere,
right.
So, if we could just be like,Hey, cool listeners, could you
maybe take more naps,
Val (30:41):
Could you take those mental health days?
when you need them?
Kat (30:44):
Yeah.
And like, would you maybe whenyou're interacting with your
kids, have them have stillness,could we learn it for ourselves
and then model it for otherpeople?
Could we interact with thehumans that are alive and be
like, oh, What I hear you sayingis, is that there's some grief
there and it's okay to sit withthat,
Val (31:03):
And if you're a manager at a company, Do your fucking best
to validate acknowledge and giveyour employees space for that.
Don't make it harder.
Kat (31:13):
You do that by doing it for yourself first.
That's the
Val (31:16):
you won't do it for other people if you're not doing it
Kat (31:18):
for, you know, because, we talk about there's all these
different coping mechanisms thatwe use.
And so our culture has taught usthat coping mechanism of work
harder at work will
Val (31:27):
save you
Kat (31:28):
work as the only thing that will see you through this.
Right.
That's a quote from sleepless in
Val (31:32):
Seattle,
Kat (31:32):
by the way.
And
Val (31:35):
also say, can we acknowledge that, like you were
talking about grief being allaround us, that the more
marginalized identities that wehold, the more that grief is
around all the time.
Whether their Racial identitiesand the grief of fuck this, the
system is rigged against, meeverywhere I go.
Or, you know, I'm always judgedby the color of my skin.
Fuck.
(31:55):
Right.
That is a, that is a griefRight, right.
Living in or having any otherkind of marginalized identity
there's grief all the time.
and How are we acknowledgingand, and letting it pass through
us instead of getting sort ofbottled up so looping back
around to what you asked before.
Grief grief does it's wild.
It's wild.
It makes us do weird things.
(32:16):
I actually didn't.
Start using the past tense of myfather's death for a while.
And at the same time I wasdating someone and he broke up
with me, like right after my dadI'm grateful, but a little bit
of a Dick move, but I'm alsograteful, He heard me call him
my boyfriend, or I didn't evenknow I did it, but I was still
(32:36):
using it in the present
Kat (32:37):
tense.
Yeah.
Val (32:38):
And so he was like, why'd you say that?
Like, we're broken up.
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
But also I was doing the samething with my dad.
I was like, oh yeah, my dad, hedoes blah, blah, blah, blah,
Kat (32:47):
blah.
Val (32:47):
My body's didn't want to change.
my language to the past tenseyet.
Kat (32:51):
Yeah.
Cause God, it's, it's huge.
It's a major shift.
It takes our whole selves awhile to catch up to what our
present reality is.
Sometimes
Val (33:00):
I'm not going to get to the coping mechanisms because I'm
going to go on another side, butI think we have to mention
complicated grief, wherethere's, many things happening
at once.
Right.
And recognizing why am I havingsuch a hard time?
Why is this feeling so hard?
Well, it's that complicatedgrief.
There's many griefs going on atonce.
Right.
Rafiq and I were just talkingabout he needs to do some more
(33:23):
traveling and I'm like, look, Ithink that I had, it was
complicated grief with theinfertility that we experienced
also at the same time, leavingour church and not feeling like
a divorce, and losing a lot of.
friendships.
And then him being gone and ushaving difficulty.
in our relationship.
So it was all mixed together.
Cause I could have blamed it allon him.
(33:44):
Fuck you.
You're ruining our marriage, Icould have blamed it all on, the
infertility I could have blamedit all in the church.
And honestly it was a mixture ofall things.
And now that I have found somehealing from that and processed
a lot of the grief around theinfertility.
It doesn't feel torturousanymore.
when you leave.
Cause I would ask myself, I wasnot being very kind to myself,
are you that weak?
(34:04):
that you can't be by yourselfRight?
Cause I was brought up you needto be strong But it was the
trauma of all these other thingson top of it.
So now his traveling is just, Iwant him to be around.
and doesn't feel torturousanymore.
cause I've Healed other aspects.
of Grief and pain.
Does That make
Kat (34:22):
sense.
Yeah, it really does.
Val (34:23):
So should I, so should I just finally talk about coping
mechanisms
Kat (34:26):
well, I think we should do it right after the break.
We're going to go for a breakand then some coping mechanisms,
people, we have some things totell you that might actually be
helpful.
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Val (35:33):
Okay.
We're back.
Kat (35:34):
Hi,
Val (35:35):
So So in the middle of sometimes I get like these,
great downloads in the middle ofmy rantings during therapy.
I tell glides, okay.
I'm getting on my soapbox.
I want to, I want to tell
Kat (35:44):
you something.
I want to hear it.
I want
Val (35:45):
to hear it.
was like our culture.
We love a bootstrap and a white
Kat (35:51):
Knight.
Val (35:52):
We love a bootstrap and a white knuckle.
telling Everyone just pullyourself up by the bootstrap.
Or you can make it just go alittle harder.
you know?
And so I'm like, we love abootstrap in a white knuckle,
but we demonize the crutch.
Kat (36:08):
Yeah, we do.
Val (36:09):
And what fuckers, demonize a crutch, which actually just
helps you walk.
It's a beautiful object.
Thank you so much, crutch.
You're You're enabling me towalk when I've had an illness or
I've twisted an ankle.
Cause I have clients say like,well, I don't want it to be a
crutch.
Well, I don't want this to be acrutch.
Crutches help you walk people.
Kat (36:30):
Use them, find them anything.
That's a crutch.
Get some fucking crutches.
People,
Val (36:35):
crutches are amazing.
When did crutches become eviland morally wrong to use a
Kat (36:41):
of ableism fucking
Val (36:42):
Oh, can you describe ableism for anyone who hasn't
heard
Kat (36:47):
yet?
Yeah.
So ableism is just one of thosethings where you kind of vilify
someone who is disabled, right?
So like the ideal that, youknow, we're constantly projected
is, this, able-bodied can do allthese things.
And so when you live in a bodythat doesn't do those things,
you become
Val (37:05):
marginalized.
Kat (37:07):
And so yeah, the idea that.
Well, the goal should be foreveryone to be perfectly
able-bodied.
And so that we, like we pushaside people, you know what,
just real quick, the whole COVIDthing.
Like you know, I, I spent sometime in, in disabled circles,
right?
Like I,
Val (37:19):
I tech
Kat (37:20):
am disabled and I have limited mobility.
And so I spend time in thesegroups and so P these would be
people who are immunocompromisedand things like that.
And so this group of people islike, Hey, fuckers COVID is not
over.
I get that.
We all have fucking fatigue withthis shit, but seriously, you
are saying that it's okay if Idie.
Right because we don't valuesomeone's life.
(37:42):
But like a disabled person thatwe have systematically
marginalized, or like, yeah, youcould just die.
Right.
That's not cool.
That's bad.
So that's what Abel ism is.
So like, it's just a bias thatwe
Val (37:56):
right.
So, right.
We have a bias that if you needa crutch, then you are weak
Kat (38:00):
yeah.
And somehow less than adehumanize you.
So your social currency isdiminished.
We're always doing that work.
Val (38:07):
We are, we are.
Kat (38:08):
And we're not trying to shame anyone like we're
indoctrinated.
Right.
So, but when you become aware ofit, you're just like,
Val (38:13):
Shining
Kat (38:14):
like, yeah, notice it.
And then be like, Hey, maybe Iwill take an examine that at
some point after my seven naps,because of all the fucking grief
or
Val (38:21):
when we know better, we do better.
Thank you, Maya Angelou.
I love that.
So, any, yeah.
you said any sort of copingmechanism is on the table.
I also, yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
somewhat client was telling meabout like, I just want to stick
my head in the sand and theywere going through a lot.
and I'm like, Look, sometimes Idon't know if I surprised them,
(38:43):
I give them permission forwhatever, right?
Sometimes you just have to stickyour head in the sand for a
while.
And that's okay.
And then I, it just pops up.
Look.
Astra, just do it all the time.
Sticking their head.
in the sand.
Are they extinct?
No, they're surviving.
they did not go the way of theDodo bird.
Putting your head in the sandfor a little while.
(39:04):
Is that going to make youextinct?
Kat (39:06):
a legit Colby mechanism.
People find some fucking sad.
Val (39:10):
Do you like the answer?
Just do, put your head in thestand for a little while and
then shake it off, shake it offand find something else that
maybe might be more helpful inthe moment.
Kat (39:18):
Right?
Okay.
This is why we got to stay intouch with our
Val (39:21):
Yes.
Kat (39:22):
Don't live so much in your fucking brains.
Our brains are not reliable forcoping with grief, our brains do
weird shit.
So you got to stay in your bodyand then you say high body.
I would like to be gentle withyou.
I know we're going through alot.
Like what's the next thing thatwe need.
And then just listen,
Val (39:41):
so clients, I help them make lists for self-care and I
talk about self care self,nurturing, and self-soothing,
And I have them make a list ofeverything that they turn to
when they want to feel better.
And I think That freaks out somepeople
Kat (39:53):
like, oh,
Val (39:54):
am I going to tell you what I do when I just want to soothe
myself?
Right.
Like, right.
And I said, we're not going tomoralize.
Any of them, They're not goingto be good or bad.
We're going to learn how tocheck into our body each day and
realize, you know, when.
is Laying in bed, bingeing, yourfavorite show, the best thing
(40:14):
for you.
in that moment.
And when will that not feelgreat?
Right.
Like maybe you've got a paperthat's due or whatever, you
know, sometimes.
Going out for a walk feelsamazing.
and Sometimes it won't So Youcan't just have a list and be in
your head about it.
You have to check in because youwill feel the best
Kat (40:36):
when and what works today.
Won't work tomorrow and that'sokay.
That's again, like when you rideout the waves of grief and, and
looking at it as waves isreally, really helpful because
you need to, you need to be likethe surfer, right?
You gotta be the surf pro surferon the surfboard.
And what they're doing isthey're constantly in relation
to the wave.
They're moving their body.
They're adjusting, they'remaking adjustments as we go.
(40:58):
And that's why our bodies are sokey here.
Our brains want a fucking listto check it off.
And you know, our brains areextremely susceptible to all of
the messaging we have from ourculture.
And again, I'm not trying toshame our brains.
They're, they're doing theirjob.
They're trying to keep us safe.
But our bodies, our bodies arewhat know how to heal.
Val (41:18):
Yes.
And as a part of that, as partycoping mechanisms, we've talked
about a lot of things
Kat (41:23):
already.
Val (41:24):
Also rituals, Can we get a
Kat (41:26):
circle.
Val (41:26):
to that?
I ask clients when there's beena big thing that's going on.
Is there a ritual that you cando that might help move or shift
something commemorate?
Memorialize is there, you know,a lot of like the burning
something like that, we'll getto that next.
Week's ever burn baby burn.
(41:46):
Do we need to burn some shit?
We almost burned some shit thatwas leftover from the
Kat (41:50):
relationship
Val (41:50):
you know?
Or is there something that willhelp you
Kat (41:54):
to move up.
Yeah.
but sometimes we're in so muchpain, we're just grasping for
whatever.
And I think we're in that stage,it's better to just be still and
try to sooth.
Right.
And then sometimes the, theenergy is too intense.
And so you're like, okay,stillness is making me feel
worse.
And so you're like, okay, wellI'm going to move my body.
Val (42:10):
What, feels
Kat (42:11):
good?
What kind of movement feelsgood?
And then, once you're likethrough that intense crest of
the wave, you can settle intowell, what is going to pull me
out of the dark sadness.
And so you gather these lists.
I like that you have everyonewrite these lists.
And would you say the threedifferent things can cause
they're all a little differentaren't they
Val (42:28):
Self-soothing So how do you feel better?
Self-nurturing what things makeyou feel alive when Nurture.
your soul curious And then selfcare, like what are the things,
you know, like I talked aboutthe plant stick before.
right?
What are those three things?
And it's so funny, minor, likewhy.
Laughter and protein the thingsthat keep me going, right.
(42:52):
water.
Laughter protein so I askedpeople to, To make the list.
One thing that they they'd beenthinking about that might be
good.
Let me try it.
And one thing that they know isnot good.
Before we go, I also want totalk about, Reorganization.
Kat (43:06):
I just underlined that.
I was like, let's get to
Val (43:08):
Let's get to that.
Cause you really liked that whenI told you about it.
So we're going to link herwebsite, Jill Johnson, young.
is a therapist who reallyfocuses on grief.
I think She has a book or apodcast called the rebellious
widow or something like that.
I know I liked that it talks alot about grief.
And I took one of her trainingsand she talked about people who
were able to continue to live afull life after experiencing
(43:30):
loss, what they did was theywere able to reorganize their
life after the loss.
So reorganization I think issuch a great phrase
Kat (43:41):
Concept.
So, so grief can alter us,
Val (43:44):
like it
Kat (43:45):
us.
And then we can, part of thehealing process is making peace
with the alteration.
And then that includes, like, Ithought my life was going to
look like this.
I thought it was going toinclude my dad.
I thought it was going toinclude children in my life.
And my dad, no, my children.
Right.
And so like the, the grief thatalters us, it alters our reality
and it alters who we are.
(44:06):
Right.
And then the process of makingpeace with that, I think can be
really profound.
And then, you've got to decidethat I'm still alive.
So what the fuck I'm going todo?
Am I going to curl up and die orI'm going to like still find a
way to live.
That is actually incredibly
Val (44:22):
difficult.
It's incredibly difficult.
And I think it can be incrediblypowering if you can get,
Kat (44:29):
yeah.
Well, that's the thing myperspective on like terrible
things happen.
We don't want them to happen andit's not trying to like turn
everything rosy, but like, I dolove who I am today and I did
experience all of that fuckingshit.
Right.
I don't know who I would havebeen if I didn't experience
that, but I love who I am today.
And I accept myself for himtoday in the, all of the
alterations and all of thecolors and all of the, the shape
(44:51):
of who I am.
Right.
Like I love me.
And so every bit of it getsredeemed because I fucking love
myself.
And I think that's, that's whatI was trying to
Val (45:00):
say earlier,
Kat (45:01):
know, like, yeah.
I w when great, if I didn't haveall that fucking trauma, right.
I love me and I have beenaltered and I've come back
Val (45:11):
swinging,
Kat (45:11):
you know, like sure.
I get knocked down, but I get upagain.
Val (45:17):
I can knock down, but I get up again.
Okay.
I think I'm feeling what you'resaying.
It's kind of just beenintegrated.
into who you are and thereforeyou love it.
Kat (45:28):
I love
Val (45:29):
like, you all love
Kat (45:30):
Yeah.
And I've made peace and I'veaccepted these truths and I, I'm
not rejecting any part of me,even the traumatized part.
I'm not
Val (45:36):
rejecting it.
and the loss,
Kat (45:38):
Yeah.
And I've had to re I've had toreorganize my life so many
fucking times and I, you know,there's this meme about I don't
want to be resilient and Iunderstand the point of that.
I didn't want to have to beresilient, but man, it's a
fucking skill.
I am very resilient, you know,and I still feel all my fucking
feelings.
It's weird because I've healedenough to feel all my feelings
(46:00):
and God damn motherfucker.
It's a lot.
Val (46:04):
It is a lot.
And it can also move us into aspace of agency and power.
Right.
If we can do it.
Then we have the agency and thepower to rewrite the story.
Right.
Have an alternative ending.
Like they have in the movies.
Right.
What's the alternative ending.
How can life be since this thingdidn't happen.
Right.
And I think that there's power,there's a whole thing.
(46:25):
Narrative therapy is all aboutfocusing on the story, the story
we tell ourselves, and that weactually have the power to
change that story, make themeaning we want it to make, you
know, and how do we reorganize?
How do we move on from here?
How do you realize that thingsare
Kat (46:41):
changed?
Right.
Val (46:43):
And, how do we
Kat (46:44):
move forward?
Yeah.
And maybe you didn't want thechange, but it doesn't mean it
didn't
Val (46:47):
change.
Okay.
So interesting.
I've talked about radicalacceptance I think on the
podcast before, and even thatcomes out of the DBT.
if you're like a therapy junkieIn that book, they cite the
Kubler-Ross stages of grief.
The acceptance.
So radical acceptance is reallybuilding off of that.
And I'll just say it again, thatradical acceptance knows that
(47:07):
there's going to be suffering inthe world and in life.
And what we're trying to do isreduce suffering and have an
experience with the pain.
And so we have choices.
We can, one change thesituation.
Is there any way to get out ofthis terrible situation that
we're in?
Number two, can we see itdifferently?
Can we reframe it Right.
Is there a different way to lookat this.
(47:27):
That feels good.
Number three.
We can accept it, radicallyaccept.
This is what it is.
I don't like it.
I don't want it, but it is whatit is.
And if I accept it, I can moveforward.
Or The fourth choice is to staystuck and to just be like, I
don't want it.
Nope.
It's not happening.
Little kids do that all thetime.
Right.
They're just like, Hmm.
if I don't look at it, it's notthere.
Kat (47:49):
And that's allowed you to, that's part of it for awhile.
That's the put your head in thesand That's okay.
As soon as you're ready to comeup for error, let's
Val (47:56):
reorganize Yeah.
Kat (47:58):
and then find some
Val (47:59):
humans.
Oh, some good humans that makeyou feel good, that support, you
that understand validate
Kat (48:04):
that can have a fucking real
Val (48:05):
conversation Hmm.
Yeah.
I was joking, I think in anotherepisode about this meme I saw
that said why don't we call it?
Emotional baggage we missed agreat opportunity for humor.
We should've called it our griefcase.
And I just love that Funny,smart humor.
And I do ask clients like, whatare you going to put in
Kat (48:24):
your briefcase,
Val (48:26):
especially when you lose someone, or something, what
things do you want to take withyou how are you sort of packing
up after
Kat (48:33):
it's all over?
Val (48:34):
What are you taking with you and what aren't you taking
with you?
Because sometimes there'sexpectations, we've heard people
say, like, I have to do it.
Cause my, you know, my dad wouldhave wanted it or, this is what
he thought that was supposed tobe for my life.
You can decide, do you want totake that with you?
Or do you lay that down?
Kat (48:50):
Well, is it resonant with what you're doing and
reorganizing your own life?
Val (48:54):
so I did a guest podcasting with this one young woman, her
podcast is called good grief.
Jessie.
and She lost literally everyonein her nuclear family.
one by one.
How is she reorganizing?
and moving?
She's created a podcast thattalks in an irreverent, like
funny way about grief, so that'sone example of how she's taken
(49:16):
that.
with her.
And brought that, grief with herprobably for the rest of her.
life.
Kat (49:20):
Right.
Good job.
Val (49:21):
Ooh, that's
Kat (49:22):
We did a Val, I think we're wrapping up now.
Val (49:25):
I think we are.
And it was, sprawling and messyand, and amazing.
And intense.
Kat (49:31):
what's bringing you some pleasure.
Val (49:32):
today.
Hmm.
I think just being able to talkabout, these things, you know
one of our faithful listeners,he calls after every podcast.
I just mean so much to me.
And I think that he's justreally thanking us for our
vulnerability to share aboutthese things and his experiences
might be different, but thethemes are, resonating.
(49:53):
And it's bringing our friendshipcloser, like this is a form of
alchemy to putting this out inthe world all the grief that
we've experienced and passingthat along and sharing that with
others, I think is reallybringing me a lot of pleasure.
right now.
What about you?
Kat (50:09):
Well, this sounds a little strange, but like, Just crying
with you as my like
Val (50:14):
kind friend
Kat (50:15):
it's oddly pleasure.
Like to be witnessed, to be sosafe, I feel super safe.
Right.
And then I feel honored in mystory and in my journey and in
my pain.
Right.
So like, that's the beautifulthing of like, you know, we talk
about these three questions andhow you deepen your relationship
with other people.
And we are all constantlyevolving.
I mean, if we choose to right,you could make the choice not
(50:37):
to, but it feels really goodevolve with other safe humans.
And like, it feels really goodthat we've cultivated this
friendship.
And so in a strange way, itfeels like, like pleasure to be
exposed and vulnerable with youand with our
Val (50:51):
listeners.
Yeah.
Thank you for going along thisjourney with us, we love, you
Kat (50:57):
listeners.
We're so glad you're here.
We appreciate you so
Val (51:00):
much.
in Malibu cat.
Kat (51:02):
I love you, Val.
Bye.
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