“Know Thyself” -all our favorite personality tests!

Back after a week off, Kat and Val happily recount all of our most favorite personality tests and a myriad of other fun tools we use to better understand ourselves and others. 

*The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only*

Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast

Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club

Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art

Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
16 personalities quiz
Love languages quiz
Apology language quiz
Enneagram quiz
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD

Episode Transcript

Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.

(00:33):
I'm convincing KA that this wasthe best use of her day.

Kat (00:38):
Oh yeah.
It absolutely.
Is.
Are we starting?
Yeah.
Hi.
podcast days are always myfavorite day.
Absolutely.
Hands down.
100%, two thumbs up

Val (00:50):
Two ups up.
Like it, it's a vibe.
That's what the kids say.
Oh my gosh.

Kat (00:57):
that's so funny.
Yeah.
That is what the

Val (00:58):
I'm still not used to, but we get Airbnb reviews of like,
this house is a vibe.
Like I think that that's areally good compliment.
Thank you.
This

Kat (01:07):
a very good compliment.
Yeah.

Val (01:08):
we're here today.
Podcasting

Kat (01:11):
podcasting.
So

Val (01:13):
twing.

Kat (01:14):
Yeah.
Today's episode is about knowingourselves

Val (01:18):
know yourself, bitch.

Kat (01:24):
it's so funny.
We're a little SL happy at thispoint.
It's

Val (01:27):
this is where the magic comes out.
Actually, this would happen tome.
So often as a kid, a teenagerthat my one friend, oh, he
listened to the podcast, shoutout to my high school youth
group friend that they wouldcall it pumpkin time.
Oh, Val went to pu pumpkin time,probably in college too, like
said that, but I was like, oh,Val, wents pumpkin time.

Kat (01:46):
Yeah.
I use that in present time.
I'm like I'm pumpkin.
I'm pumpkin real hard now

Val (01:50):
do you really?
I dunno, anybody else that usesthat?

Kat (01:53):
turn into a pumpkin at midnight.

Val (01:54):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
So

Kat (01:56):
I

Val (01:57):
did tell my, I I've had to tell my husband and, you know,
if you, if you are a, a, afollower of the podcast my
husband does just enough that Idon't say I'm done with you.
because we do not value heteromen, you know doing their
emotional work.
Like that's not at least

Kat (02:14):
you as you and I, as individuals do.

Val (02:16):
of course.
But yeah.
And especially like what, like30, 40 years ago that was not
like high on the priority list.
So you know, it was, you know bea man and don't feel your
feelings like suck it up.
Don't cry.
So

Kat (02:30):
don't cry.

Val (02:31):
So I found myself telling my husband, sir,

Kat (02:33):
sir,

Val (02:34):
you're having some extreme feelings right now and you need
to realize that and then come tome with

Kat (02:39):
your shits or

Val (02:40):
yourself, sir.
And sometimes I help him knowhimself and you know what,
that's just a gift that keeps ongiving, I guess, to

Kat (02:47):
telling you, like, he's extremely lucky to be married to
you.

Val (02:50):
I think he does know that we've had some, we've had some
update update.
I'm you know, I'm keeping himaround for a while.

Kat (02:55):
Yeah.
Made the congratulations.

Val (03:00):
I, I really despise the bachelor.
I'm really sorry if anyone lovesit.
But like I do like you know, agood like project runway, top
chef.
So there is actually one calledmaking the cut and it's like,
congratulations.
You've made the cut for another

Kat (03:11):
exactly why I said it.
Cuz I watched the show and Ilove design

Val (03:15):
you like design shows.
I

Kat (03:17):
it always makes me wanna get my sew machine out and like
make

Val (03:20):
Aw.

Kat (03:21):
I love it.
I love it so much.

Val (03:22):
I love witnessing people's creativity,

Kat (03:25):
people, artists creating in real time.
I love

Val (03:28):
Know yourself.
Are you a creative bitch?
but yes.
Just to give a little, just togive a little update.
Yeah.
Yeah, we've had some hard talksthis week and I really thought
it wasn't, he was not gonna makethe cut and that's very sad.
Right.
I've told you me and freak.
Yeah.
If you wanna go back, see Val,what is, what is Shal talking
about?
What episode was that we talkedabout?

Kat (03:49):
Unsolvable problems.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We talked about getting creativewith unsolvable problems and
sometimes in a humanrelationship, two different
people.
You can have some unsolvableproblems.

Val (04:00):
The experts, some experts believe six, at least 60% of
problems in a relationship areunsolvable.
You just manage them.
Oh.
And then I came up with thissince, since then.
Yeah, because I'm a genius.
You

Kat (04:11):
You are a genius, a genius.
It's sexy.
When you say it.
I love it.

Val (04:18):
Not saying it to try to be sexy, just that like some, some
are manage, you just have tomanage them.
And then it's the unmanageableproblems that lead to, I think,
dissolution of relationships.
Oh, right.
So it's like, is it, is itunsolvable?
Okay.
But is it manageable?
And if it's unmanageable, thenmaybe that was good.
Right.

Kat (04:37):
You are good.
Yeah.

Val (04:39):
Yeah.
You know, so anyway, that's,that's my,

Kat (04:42):
luck, Rafi.
I mean,

Val (04:43):
Good luck rave What's the hunger games, quote, may the

Kat (04:46):
odd odds ever be

Val (04:47):
in your favor?

Kat (04:50):
I.

Val (04:50):
So anyway, that's our update from the unsolvable
problem land.
But today we're gonna talkabout, oh, you're welcome.
Mm-hmm today.
We're gonna talk about knowyourself.

Kat (04:57):
Yay.

Val (04:58):
And we have bonded over all the different, like quizzes on
knowing yourself and like allthe personality stuff and all

Kat (05:06):
my gosh.
Decades worth of talking aboutthis shit decades.
So fun.
That is

Val (05:10):
funny that we have since the beginning, since we knew
about them, actually, I wasgonna bring this one up.
Do you remember the first kindof personality test?
Is that what it was called?

Kat (05:21):
Sangwe melancholy.
Matic.
Yes.

Val (05:25):
that was, that was the

Kat (05:26):
no NAIC.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Caloric.
I'm like, now that sounds likecalorie, like yeah.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Personality.
Plus

Val (05:33):
That was the first one.
Oh my gosh.
It's like, oh, you're so Sanuright.
You were

Kat (05:38):
the Sanu is kind of your extrovert and like, you know,
playful and the Callic one waslike, like type a get shit

Val (05:46):
be mm-hmm

Kat (05:47):
Can run a business CEO and then thematic is like that
easygoing person who has like asilent will of iron, right?
Oh yeah.

Val (05:55):
I, I never heard that part.

Kat (05:57):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And then

Val (05:59):
silent will of iron.

Kat (06:02):
okay.
So like, they seem real laidback in easygoing, but they
just, they like, they don'twanna make any conflict, but
there are some like lines they

Val (06:11):
just, oh, gotcha.

Kat (06:12):
they'll seem like they're being like cooperative, but then
they're just, they're just notgonna do the thing, but they're
not gonna

Val (06:18):
mm,

Kat (06:18):
to it.
Yeah.

Val (06:19):
the passive aggressive actually that sounds like the
engram nine, which you can getinto, but yeah.
And then the melancholy.
Yeah.
Which is like the

Kat (06:26):
artist you're artist, your deep thinker and you're highly
emotive.

Val (06:29):
I remember like, we must have went, we must have like
went to some classes on this orsomething, but

Kat (06:34):
the book, I read the book and everyone, I made everyone
read the book, Yeah.
So over the years we have foundso many fun like tools like
this.
Right.
And nothing is perfect.
This is not, you know, no dog,Mihir, just like it's fun to

Val (06:47):
I tell clients, this is not a blood test.
OK.
this is not a blood test.
This, if it helps, it helps.
If it doesn't throw it in thegarbage.
Yeah anyway.
I think we should break rightbefore we forget let's break for
commercials before we break outall the personality

Kat (07:00):
Absolutely.
We'll be back with so much morefun, everybody.

Val (07:02):
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Kat (07:20):
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Val (07:21):
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Exactly.
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Grab your spot and get more infoat.
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Kat (07:32):
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Val (07:58):
Okay.
So here we are.
You ready?
I'm

Kat (08:00):
I'm so ready for this

Val (08:01):
Buckle up.

Kat (08:03):
I am buckled in.

Val (08:04):
Well, okay.
Why are we doing this?
Like, I think, you know,foundational to our work.
Right.
Did you ask me that question?
KA?
Why are we even interested in

Kat (08:12):
this?
topic?
Yeah.
Thank

Val (08:14):
That's what I thought you said.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Kat (08:16):
I, well, okay.
It's just a shared passion,right?
And I think that it's, you know,when we talk about all the other
shit, we talk about like, what'sreally.

Val (08:25):
This is foundational.
Sure.

Kat (08:27):
Yeah.
You have to have some workingknowledge of yourself and how
you work and how you functionthe world.
And so you and I have just lovedall these extra fun tools.
Yeah.
That help uncover some truethings about ourselves.
And then when you're readingsome of this shit, you're like,
oh, this is like my thing, mycategory that I fit into and you
start to read the descriptionsand you feel seen mm-hmm and

(08:48):
you're like, yes.
And sometimes you find newlanguage that you didn't have
access to before, but you'relike, ah, that resonates so
deeply.
I love that feeling.
Yeah.
And it just does feel fun.
I don't know.
Like, so you and I are bothreally curious and we just, we
love I don't know, discoveringother people, but also like
discovering ourselves.
It is like a fun thing.

Val (09:07):
It is, I think it's human nature, right?
Like just, all the quizzes arelike, I know social media's full
of when, when we used to readmagazines, like there'd be
quizzes, like find out.
And I think we, we kind of liketug in cheek, like, because a
lot of people will PPO on allthis and like Myers, Briggs is
one, like one has been aroundfor a long time and then people
are like, oh, it's like, it'snot even like scientific.

(09:28):
Yeah.

Kat (09:29):
sure.
Yeah.
I mean, I know there'scritiques, there's reasonable
critiques of a lot of thisstuff, which is fine, but also
if you don't take it so fuckingliteral and you're just like,
this is a fun tool I

Val (09:39):
will Well, yeah.
And we change, right.
I think there's some debate andresearch changes over like, does
your personality change overtime or is it pretty static?
And I think that there's like,I've read about both, like,
yeah, yeah.
There's and then there's even,well, yeah, like it tends to say
pretty, pretty steady, but thenalso we change and as we get

(10:00):
older, even like our, our, ourpersonality attributes, or maybe
the intensity change also, Ithink some things that we think
are a part of our personalityare things that are, that need
to be healed sometimes.
Right.
like, is it your personality oris it your trauma?
Like that's, that's part of it.
Right.
So all those things together,again, just tools.

Kat (10:21):
Yeah.
So.

Val (10:24):
Okay.
Cat, let's get into it.
Huh?
We got a lot of there's a lot ofstuff in here.

Kat (10:28):
It's just so fun.
And they're really cuz we'veknown each other so long.
We've we've like collected somany different like fun things.

Val (10:35):
I know.
All right.
Well, should we start just,we're gonna just kind of mention
a bunch of'em and yeah.
Yeah.
So Myers, Briggs, I feel likethat was kind of one of the big
ones after the personality,plus, although it's been around
a while.
Right.
And again, people, sometimes poopoo on it and be like, there's
no, there's no scientific data.

Kat (10:54):
Right.
And sometimes tools like thiscan be misused, cuz I've heard
some critique about like, youknow, they give them two
perspective employees, employersdo, and then they're like, oh
yeah, no based on a personalitytest.
Which isn't really ethical.

Val (11:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like meet the person.
Do you know?
What's really funny is thatactually my first job and my
first pastoral job, right?
The pastor.
Sent me this, right.
He had already hired me, but hewanted to know my Myers Briggs
before at the church.
Yeah.
So they were really using it inlike all the skill building and
stuff.
Also at Bible college, they toldyou that no one was gonna care
about your GPA.
This pastor cared about my GPAand told the whole congregation

(11:31):
about it.
Oh, that's hilarious.
And then I

Kat (11:32):
had a high

Val (11:33):
I did.

Kat (11:34):
I know

Val (11:37):
So I was okay with that.
But the virus breaks, like theytug, I think the big one.
So there's right.
This one has the differenttypes.
And it talks about introintroversion or extroversion,
right?
Where you get your where you getrevitalized or rejuvenated,

Kat (11:50):
Your relationship to other people.
And does it drain you or does itenergize

Val (11:53):
you mm-hmm and where do you need to, where do you need to
recharge?
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm so that's, that's thefirst letter on that

Kat (12:00):
that changed for me.
When we took this test, I was incollege.
I was a raging extrovert.
Mm-hmm then now I almost alwayscome out like 50, 50

Val (12:07):
And I think they have also added to this it's also can be
called the 16 personalities aswell.
But they've added the ambivert.
Yeah.
Because so many people, andagain, again, use it to help you
use it, to know like, oh gosh, Ineed to, anything can be misused
too.
Right.
And

Kat (12:24):
course.
Of course.
Yeah.

Val (12:26):
so then the, the next letter in your type and they,
they came out well, the nextletter in the type is about
information.
Do you prefer to focus on thebasic information you take in or
do you prefer to interpret it anad meeting?
So this is sensing with an S orintuition is the N right?
What, what was your latest?

Kat (12:46):
I'm an N I've always been an N

Val (12:48):
the whole thing though.

Kat (12:49):
Oh, well, Ian E Ft.
No, E NFT.
Yeah.
E P P

Val (12:55):
E N F P.
That's funny.
Cuz I'm an E N F J

Kat (12:59):
yeah, I know this about you.
Mm-hmm Yeah.
yeah.
We're really similar.
But you have the judging.
I have the perceiving I'mskipping ahead to the

Val (13:05):
You are, but you know, this is funny too, cause I have a
whole book about how MyersBriggs in relationships and the
different types.
I think that can be reallyhelpful.
It helped me too, because.
So, okay.
So we were in couplescounseling, right?
And I think what, what we didn'trealize is RAI is an S he's
sensing.
He wants the facts.
I was talking last episodeabout, I had to tell him that

(13:28):
our current home, this littletown that he would love it, cuz
it's very beachy and everything.
But he was like, I don't know.
He doesn't trust his intuition.
He's not the, he's not the

Kat (13:37):
not my ex-husband was like that too.
I was like, your intuition isactually good information.
Yeah.

Val (13:42):
But no doesn't trust the, the intuition.
And so he hadactually asked, hadto live here and then be like,
yep.
I like it.
So I feel like that's justreally helpful to understand the
people around you.
Yeah.
But I.
Well, and then, so then we'llget to the next one, which is
about decisions when makingdecisions, do you prefer to look
at it, logical and consistency,or first looking at the people

(14:03):
and special circumstances.
So thinking or feeling yeah.
Feeling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hello feeling.
So because my husband is or letme say it a different way.
I think RAI can be veryemotional and passionate.
Yeah.
And have a lot of like strongfeelings.
Sure.
I think even our therapistthought that he was an F so here
I was thinking that he wasmaking.

(14:25):
And when I read this about hispersonality type, I finally like
looked it up that he was the Sand the T yeah.
Making decisions logically,right.
It says there does not takepeople's consi feelings into
consideration when makingdecisions.
I was like, ah, and again, themeaning we make, he doesn't love
me.
He's a feeler.
He knows my feelings and he'sstill making decisions that are

(14:47):
hurtful to me.
Right.
And I was like, oh, I mean, thisdoesn didn't change the fact
that he was making decisions,but the meaning we make about
the motivation or the why thatwas like a revolution to our
relationship of how it helped.
Right.
That he was He's wired, but Ithink the cultural overlay of it
made myself and even thetherapist.
Yeah.
Think that he was an F insteadof a T and like, oh yeah.

(15:10):
Why is he doing this?
Right.

Kat (15:11):
So it, like, it made, you have certain expectations that
he wasn't able to like meetreally.

Val (15:17):
Yeah.

Kat (15:18):
Yeah.
But he better learn how tofucking meet

Val (15:19):
these guys.

Kat (15:20):
expectations.
it's funny.

Val (15:22):
it's just really helpful to know that that's how his brain
works.
Even though it seems like maybehe's more of a feeler than he
is.
No, he's very logical.
He's just very funny.
And Greg.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm yeah.
Fascinating.
Yeah.
Okay.
So the next letter is structure.
the last one in dealing with theoutside world.
Do you prefer to get thingsdecided or do you prefer to stay

(15:44):
open to new information andoptions?
oh, fuck you.
so, yeah.
Yeah.
J or P perceiving.
Yeah.
Which the shorthand is kind oflike.
Well, okay.
This is where I think again,when you're, you can really
study deeply into these thingsand really understand it, or do
you get like, kind of the popculture version of it?

(16:04):
And I think you used to, I usedto explain it, like the JS are
usually very structured people.
They're more of the admin typepeople and the P are more
spontaneous or go with the flow.
Right.
And I think we think aboutgetting things done, probably
cuz we're in a capitalistsociety, but it's really, and
this was really eyeopening to metoo, that the, the judging wants

(16:25):
to decide things.
Yeah.
Is, is less comfortable with theunknown.
Yeah.
And I think as a society, right,that's just a human nature is
that we need to label things sowe can organize them.
PEs are just way morecomfortable with like, Hmm.
We'll see I don't know.

(16:46):
Yeah.
And, and so my own, my ownpersonal growth, I think just
knowing that it's like, okay, I,I, I want an answer quick, or I
want to decide how I feel aboutsomething or make up my mind
about something, because Iprefer that it feels better, but
okay.
Let's just, let's a distresstolerance.
We can, let's just be open.
I don't know.
We'll see.
And I, I feel like I've grown somuch as a person just making

(17:10):
that shift.

Kat (17:10):
Yeah.
And these tools, what they do isthey help you see like, oh,
you're different than me andyou're not wrong.
Right.
It's not a character flaw.
Right.
But like, when you don't knowthat yeah.
When you don't know that, theway that you navigate the world
seems right to you.
We project human beings do this.
We project onto other people,you know, our, our, our own way

(17:32):
of navigating.
And then they, it fucks with ourheads when they don't function,
the way we

Val (17:37):
Isn't so funny.
We just expect everyone like,oh, you're not like me.
why not?
Like, why, why do we expectthat?
Isn't that

Kat (17:43):
not funny.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's weird that that's a humannature thing, but it really is
like, it is a huge sign ofgrowth.
When we, as individuals can belike, oh, you're different and
not wrong.
And that's not a threat to me.
Right.
That's a big deal.
Like it takes us a long time ashuman beings to get to that
place.
You

Val (18:00):
don't have to be like

Kat (18:01):
You don't have to be like me.
And it doesn't threaten me inany way that you're different
than me.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Val (18:09):
Good.
All right.

Kat (18:11):
Well, I got to there earlier than most people because
I'm a pee outta J

Val (18:15):
Maybe, maybe you did.
Alright.
So then the Enneagram.

Kat (18:20):
mm-hmm,

Val (18:21):
this one, I feel like I'm just getting to know more
recently used, used a lot bychurches and some O other
groups, but it's basically basedon the idea that there are nine
different major personalitytypes.
And it's funny, you're gonnatalk about as astrology in a few
minutes.
And I was making the joke thatlike astrology is like, oh, I,

(18:42):
and please forgive me.
I really don't know much aboutastrology because it was of the
devil as far as I was told

Kat (18:47):
was taught that too.
We were taught that

Val (18:48):
But it, but there's so many memes of like, oh, it's whatever
it's Virgo season.
This is why I'm gonna behavingbadly.
Right.
Or like this, I feel like that

Kat (18:57):
Virgos are really organized though,

Val (18:59):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Sorry.
See, see, pick the wrong lunch.
But it's almost like it's anexplanation of why I am the way
I am and at least in pop culturethat I have seen there, isn't a
lot of like, oh, this is how youchange.
This is, it's just like, haha.
This is how I am.
But the engram is really about,growth.

Kat (19:21):
Yeah.

Val (19:22):
And this is your type and this is like your character role
or this is like, I don't know.
I try to explain it.
I was like, this is the thingthat like you're most interested
in, in life or this is what youkind of center your, the basic
theme of what is the most

Kat (19:37):
thing to you.
Yeah, yeah.

Val (19:38):
Right.
And then there's so they talkabout like in stress, you go to
this number.
Yeah.
And then in health, you movetoward this number but it is all
about performance and changing.
And becoming a more likeactualized version of yourself,
which isn't necessarily bad.
But I, I think I'm alwaysalerted to the striving aspect.
I think you're alerted to thedogma aspect of our shared

(20:00):
history

Kat (20:01):
we're like, no,

Val (20:01):
no.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think the striving is, is, isstill something that I'm like,
ah,

Kat (20:07):
ah, yeah.

Val (20:08):
what I've also noticed about the types is I'm like, I
feel like there's an overlay,which I don't see in Myers
Briggs.
I feel like I see an overlay ofthe diagnoses that I was taught
to recognize like in the DSM orwhat we use in, you know, mental
health.
So I.
Nines really seem like theinattentive ADHD type and the

(20:30):
sevens seem like the hyperactivetype.
So I just think that's reallyfascinating.
There's always all these Venn

Kat (20:36):
of oh exactly.
I was gonna say, that's the funpart.
When you have some workingknowledge of these different
tools, then they kind of like,you can mash'em up and layer'em
over each other.
You know what I mean?
And you're like, oh, I just, Idon't know.
That's like, it is making mybrain like jump with joy.
Yeah.
I love it.

Val (20:52):
well.
And even I follow this womanthat like, she talks all about
the Agram nine and I think shewas fielding some questions of
like, yeah, if you identify asa, if you've tested as a nine,
you may have the inattentivetype of ADHD.
Right.
And just don't know it.
So there's nine types.
We'll have links to places where

Kat (21:10):
and I are both twos.
Right?

Val (21:12):
We are, but it,

Kat (21:14):
what, why do you sound sad?

Val (21:16):
Well, okay.
Because they say a lot of peoplehave been socializes F people in
the world identify as a two inthe church because that is the
message of like, you need to bethe helper and the giver and,
and relationships.
So there, there's a whole thingyou can read about like
mistypes, or, or I

Kat (21:34):
I have read that stuff.
And then I think when it getsdown to your like, core values
and like your core motivations,like there is something so deep
inside me and I see it in youtoo.
Like there is this like intensedesire to do good in the world,
right.
To be of service in

Val (21:51):
the world.

Kat (21:51):
Yeah.
Like when I think about coremotivations, that's it for me.
Right.

Val (21:56):
And, and the two is very Focus on relationships.
Yeah.
And in their life.
Yeah.
Where, well, again, know, knowthy self and know others.
It's like, not everyone.
That is their number one focus.
Right.
And so I actually do think, Ithink, I, I think my want was
like playing into type like or alot, I guess.
I just wanna say that out theretoo, if you were in the church

(22:19):
world for a long time and, andyou score a two, just, just,
just, you know, really digaround to see if, if you're
following this.
Like, is that really it, orsometimes nines get maybe you're
a nine instead of a two, butjust that, like how it might
have affected you.
But no, I definitely do if Isearch down.
Yes.
The thing that I'm alwaysthinking about is my

(22:39):
relationships.
Yeah.
Friendships, family romantic.
And so I do definitely think I'ma two.
And honestly, when I wasintroduced to this, it really
helped me.
To work on this.
Right.
And each one has like anunanswered question, kind of the
thing that they're thinkingabout, like and for the two it's
like, am I loved without workingfor it?

(23:04):
And so then it's like, well, arethese are twos?
Just people with like attachmenttrauma, you know,

Kat (23:08):
like, is it attachment trauma or is it like, I think we
have the ability to loveunconditionally and, and we want
reciprocation, you know what Imean?
But I want, I want to be loved,even if I'm having a hard time,
like I told this story sure.
Where like a group of friends,we're all hanging out and I'm
peer pressuring my one friend toplay, spin the bottle, even

(23:30):
though we're all there to placein the bottle Uhhuh.
And then my one friend is notinterested in playing and I,
every time it comes around, itcould be their time again.
I was like, okay, what your,their time you do did.
And then this other person inthe group.
Hey, or we could just center theperson who like doesn't, you
know, doesn't want to.
And I was like, oh, I'm anasshole.

(23:50):
And it ended up being this hugemoment for me because it's like,
my friends love me.
Mm-hmm even though in thisinstance, I'm being an asshole

Val (23:58):
sure, sure.
Yeah.

Kat (24:02):
Sorry.
I love that story.

Val (24:03):
story.
I, I think that the, the, the,the work of the two is to
believe that they are lovedwithout having to work for it.
Yeah.
And to sort of.
Leave some of that.
It does sound like anxiousattachment a

Kat (24:15):
It does.
Yeah.
But

Val (24:17):
man, I, and, and also doing things without resentment.
So the two is trying to gainlove through, through
relationship and through likethat service.
And so my thing to work on waslike to sort of hold some
relationships more loosely.
Yeah.
And to only do things that Iwouldn't be resentful for and
like, not feeling like I had todo those things or, or I

(24:41):
wouldn't be loved.

Kat (24:42):
Oh my

Val (24:43):
Even as recently as like my last year's birthday party,
everyone was trying to.
We were trying to get everyonetogether.
And my friend had to say to me,like, look, these people love
you.
Like, and if, if they gotta likefigure out you know, babysitting
or whatever, like they'll do it.
And it was almost like I was, Ifelt like I needed to make it
easy, even though I like, I feellike I have a pretty strong

(25:03):
self-esteem and I know thesepeople love me.
I've known them for at least adecade.
It still was like, I've gottamake it easy for people.
Yeah.
To love me, to show up for me.
And then, you know, then westart doing things we don't
wanna do and there's resentment.
So that's sort of how I've usedthe Ingram in my life.
And then just seeing that, likewhere you can go in stress or in
health, they also have wingsthat you can learn about.

(25:27):
And that kind of changes yourtype just a little bit.

Kat (25:29):
My wing is a three.
I don't remember what that oneis

Val (25:31):
I don't remember what the name is, but yeah, the three.
Yeah, the three is yeah, theachiever of the performer.
So I've like my intake withclients.
Now I ask them my first, myfirst session with them.
I'm like, okay, you've alreadytold me about the problem.
I wanna get to know you as theperson, tell me all, every
personality test you've evertaken your horoscope, everything
I'm like, tell me everything,your favorite color.

(25:53):
I ask them.
What will your friends tell meabout you?

Kat (25:56):
That's so good.

Val (25:57):
Cause I, I, you know, I don't want it to all be about
the problem.
Yeah.
And pathologizing it.
So I'm like, let me get to knowyou.
And that, that gives me so muchinformation about who they are
as a person.
Right.

Kat (26:08):
Oh,

Val (26:08):
last thing I'll say about any gram two that I've learned
is that Rakas a seven of course,cuz the hyperactive ADHD,
they're usually a seven some ofthe FOMO.
You know, loves to travel, needsto be in motion, all these
things, but it's like when a twoand a seven are together,
they're like this power dynamic.
Like, like like a fun force ofnature.

(26:30):
I was like, yes, that is us.

Kat (26:33):
yeah, it is.
Yeah.
That's fun.

Val (26:36):
Okay.
We said, we talk about, well,let's talk about the four
tendencies next, since we'retalking about change and
everything.
Yeah.
So you actually talked to meabout this first.

Kat (26:45):
Yeah.
Well, you know, cuz we're,

Val (26:46):
just yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kat (26:48):
So it came across my path somehow and probably a friend
told me about it and then Ishared it with you.
And so the four tendencies, thisis deals with how you are
motivated to like do anythingreally mm-hmm and so there's the
obliger and the questionermm-hmm and the rebel, but

(27:08):
there's what's the other one?

Val (27:10):
The upholder.

Kat (27:11):
Oh, the upholder.
Okay.
So this one, I feel like thewords sort of are good
explaining

Val (27:17):
mm-hmm mm-hmm

Kat (27:18):
the Myers Briggs.
I feel like the words

Val (27:19):
yes.
Are confusing.
Right?

Kat (27:20):
Okay.
So the.
The obliger is going to go alongwith the flow and like, you
know, you can delegate to it anobliger and they're gonna get it
done.
Right.
The

Val (27:32):
obliger needs external.
They're not doing it just forthemselves.
Right.
They need to do it for anoutside force.
Mm.

Kat (27:38):
Yeah.
All right.
And so then the

Val (27:41):
questioner I'm gonna obliger.
I know this

Kat (27:44):
the questioner is

Val (27:46):
They need to know the why, if you're gonna ask them to do
something they need buy in,they're gonna, you got, you need
to answer their questions of whyshould I do this?

Kat (27:55):
Yeah.
And then the upholder, are theymaking the rules?

Val (28:00):
They, they wanna do it because they're another external
person.
Right.
Because yeah, because that's theprecedent.
The rules make a lot of sense tothem.

Kat (28:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wonder how many people on theSupreme court are upholders.

Val (28:12):
Interesting.
Isn't that interesting?

Kat (28:14):
Okay.
Then you have the rebel wholike, they, they just don't
want, they don't,

Val (28:19):
Just That's what they don't told.

Kat (28:24):
what to do.
Yeah.
And even just making thecommitment to yourself.
It's so tricky to navigate this,but like, there's something
about anyone trying to haveauthority over you that you're
like, Ugh.
It feels confining and not good.
Yeah.

Val (28:37):
Or if you, and if you need to get something done, yeah.
You're gonna rebel.
If it's forced on you.
Yeah.
Which actually is goodinformation because I think I
notice my husband does that,like he is not, he is, does not
like to be put in a corner.
Yeah.
And so you give choice, theyneed choice, or like you ask a
rebel, what time will you beable to get that done for me?
Exactly.

(28:57):
Yeah.
it's just not always possible.
I

Kat (29:00):
know, I hear it.
I hear it.
My kids, I, I think at least oneof my kids is as, as a rebel as
well.
And so, but they also have ADHD.
And so here's another examplewhere all these things overlap.
Right.
Because Rafi and I both haveADHD, ADHD too.
So with my kid, it's my, I canjust tell my older kid, Hey,
unload the dishwasher and thenhe will do it.

(29:20):
Yeah.
yeah.
And then my younger one, it islike this tricky dance of
getting buy-in and findingrewards or like something to
help under ride the like the,they need to get, they need, I
need them to get this fuckingshit done, but it's just not as
straightforward.
And then again, as a parent,these tools are super fucking
helpful.

(29:41):
I'm not gonna crush theirspirit, my younger child.
I'm not gonna crush them forjust being wired the way that
they're wired, I'm gonna do whatI can to try to get buy in.
Right.
Yeah.
And it does look different thanmy other child.
They are different, verydifferent people, you know?
And so the thing of likedifferent, not wrong, very, very
helpful.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Val (29:59):
I'm still doing my work of like accepting that and being
like, yeah, it's not wrong.
I just think it sometimes makesit hard to again, play well with
others.
And that's just the hard, like,I, I guess I need more buy-in or
not buy-in, but like the upsideof that, well,

Kat (30:14):
okay.
So then when you read about therebels, like when they want to
do something though, it'sunstoppable.
Like that's the, that's the,yeah.
The high point is like

Val (30:23):
they, oh, the in cuz they have internal.
They're doing it for themselves.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There you go.
Okay.
That's what I needed.
but I mean, I'm not so happybeing an upholder either because
I need other people.
So for me, that was really good.
I used to say, oh, I'm a socialdoer.
Like I need people around to dothings.
Right.
And even just like in my ownbusiness doing like co-working
places or we've done that whereI'd be like, okay, I gotta get

(30:46):
something done.
Can you check in with me in anhour?
I need external which is reallypathetic in my mind too, you

Kat (30:52):
it's not pathetic

Val (30:53):
it feels it cuz it's like, geez, well, I

Kat (30:56):
just capitalism.
That's

Val (30:57):
a lot of people around

Kat (31:00):
Okay.

Val (31:00):
real helpful in sort of hacking again that like self
mastery hacking your own systemand knowing like, even if you,
if you know that you're a rebel,knowing that like, okay, giving
yourself choices or findinganother way to find buy-in so
that you do get that internal,internal,

Kat (31:17):
even like organizing your life in a way that you're like,
okay.
I recognize that working like adesk for me is soul

Val (31:24):
crushing.
Yeah.

Kat (31:25):
And you know, for someone else, it's not that big of a
deal for me.
It happens to be soul crushing.
Yeah.
Right.
And so I organize my lifedifferently.
Yep.
That's not my, that's not how

Val (31:34):
that's not my jam.
That's not how we do it.
Yeah.
Astrology

Kat (31:38):
wait, I just have to tell everyone you just checked it off
your

Val (31:40):
list.
Yes.

Kat (31:41):
damn.
It's so funny.
Like here you are.

Val (31:44):
yes.
We have a long list that wedon't have a lot of time.

Kat (31:47):
Oh, that's so funny.

Val (31:47):
I think that we, maybe we also just need to have another
episode about astrology and allthose things, but

Kat (31:53):
I know I'm a novice, because you were saying this
before, like this was allforbidden information.

Val (31:59):
Yes.
Like that you'll be touching thedevil's butthole.
If you do that and that's notgood going to hell.
Oh my God.

Kat (32:07):
So I, and then I have noticed that in queer circles,
people really use a lot ofastrology as shorthand and maybe
mainstream culture, they do aredoing it too, but we don't know
that you and

Val (32:17):
I, yeah,

Kat (32:17):
we were in a different

Val (32:18):
some of my younger friends and clients, it's almost like a
self care or like a, a, I don'twanna say a religion, but it's
their spiritual practice insteadof some you know, mainstream
religion.

Kat (32:30):
Well, yeah.
And it's, you know, I cantotally see all that.
So like I find it all veryinteresting.
And then I do identify with someof the attributes of being you
know a Sagittarius, but morethan that, I feel like there's
the four elements.
So there's like a fire sign,which is a Sagittarius.
And then two other signs arefire signs.
So I think Aries and say thefire sign, I can't see, I told

(32:54):
you I'm a novice and thenthere's their air signs.
And then there's water signs.
Like a cancer is a water sign.
And then there's the earth sign.
And so earth people who have anearth sign like a Capricorn and
a Taurus is an earth sign.
They have a tendency to be like,you know, grounded, right.
Earth sign.
And like, really like, like ininterested in like the way their

(33:18):
physical space

Val (33:19):
works.
They

Kat (33:20):
say that they're like materialistic.
And I think that's like puttinga negative spin on it, but they,
they have a

Val (33:25):
tendency concrete things.
Yes.
Concrete things.
Mm-hmm

Kat (33:27):
Right.
And then, you know, the watersigns are more emotive.
That's the, the idea of thewater sign,

Val (33:32):
but like changeable.

Kat (33:34):
Yeah.
Yep.
But big feelings, you know, andthen the fire sign is like, you
know, they sort of, they do,they like, they, their intensity
and they burn through stuff.
And I don't know the air sign.
I don't know that much about theair signs, but they're like, you
know, They're doing their thingtoo.
So anyway, again, it's like areal generalization, but what I
have noticed is when I'minteracting with people and I
learn their sign, I learn allthese things about it.

(33:55):
I'm like, oh, that's fun.
So then we send each other memesback and forth.
Yeah.
Like in our friend circle, likeall of our signs, it's just fun.
But you do find, you do findthings that feel resonant.
And so it's just, again, it'ssome, it's more information to
know about yourself and to beplayful, to be playful with it.

Val (34:12):
Yeah.
I am also a Sagittarius.
I do not burn things down likeyou do, but

Kat (34:18):
there's this thing about cusp ones.
I

Val (34:20):
think

Kat (34:20):
that you're like an early SD.
So I think you're on the

Val (34:22):
cusp

Kat (34:22):
of, the

Val (34:24):
also.
Don't you need to know the timeof your birth.
Like there's a funny meme.
That's like if a girl asks, if agirl asks you, or if you're a
mother and your son calls youand asks you what time he was
born, watch out, he's dating agirl that's bad news or
something.
Right?
Like just funny, funny memes.
I, I don't know.
I do,

Kat (34:41):
the time you were born.

Val (34:43):
Oh, my gosh, we just had my birth certificate out.
Yeah.
We could be doing this live onair.
No.
Yeah,

Kat (34:49):
that would be fun to do sometime.
Cuz it's fun.

Val (34:51):
Again, things

Kat (34:52):
you gotta know what other, your moon is in something and
your, I mean

Val (34:56):
all the houses.
I feel like everybody that'sborn on the same day.
Like can't have the samepersonality, but

Kat (35:02):
cuz you're born in different locations.
So like the, the planetarysystem directly above where you
were born, that all you know is,is supposed to have some kind of

Val (35:11):
even though we're inside of hospitals, when we're born,
we're not like exposed to themoon and the stars.

Kat (35:16):
take it up with someone else.
Don't take

Val (35:18):
so funny.
I love it.
I'm also fascinated.
Like I'm like, all right, fine.
And it's again, like put this inthings that our 20 year old
selves never thought we woulddo.
It's like I'm asking clients.
So what's your assign?
Like what does that tell meabout you?
How do you identify?
Like what is this happening?

Kat (35:33):
if you think astrology is a lot, right?
There's this other thing calledhuman design, which is like
astrology on steroids and theybring in some other stuff and
it's like intense.
Like I did this super long, deepdive on it a few weeks ago where
I just spent like, like at leasttwo hours, like maybe a few more
than two hours.
But like, I,

Val (35:51):
just the narrat the narrator says it was definitely
more than two hours.

Kat (35:56):
It was a weekend.
And so my kids were gone and Ijust found it so interesting.
And then again, because I getscared off on stuff, that's too
dogmatic.
Ah, so I was like listening tosome people that were like
really, really into it.
And I was like, okay, I'mstepping backwards.
I'm tip toeing away.
I'm sure it's useful, helpfulstuff.
But like the people I washearing talk about it, like saw

(36:17):
the whole world through thisparticular, you know, Like
discipline,

Val (36:22):
guys, can we just stop making everything Matic,
dogmatic that everybody else hasto follow and just admit that
you're really excited about it.
Okay.
You're hyper fixating on it.
I think again, in therapy, whenthey used to ask you what your
modality was or what your, youknow, and I think a lot of
therapists are eclectic becauseit's not one size fits all.

(36:43):
And one thing will reallyresonate with someone or work
for someone.
And then it's for another personit's like, yeah, yeah.
Right.
So,

Kat (36:50):
human designs your thing, if you're, that's your thing,
it's,

Val (36:53):
get excited or calm down.
Okay.
You decide which one you

Kat (36:57):
And you gotta know yourself to be able to determine that

Val (36:59):
that's right.
And I'm checking off astrologyon the.
That's it that's enough of that.
I actually think it'd be fun toget an expert in.
And I actually am very curiousabout taro cards, because again,
that was like, that was thedevil's game.
And so, but it's not, it's itisn't, it's, it's just a tool.
So I don't know.
Maybe we'll have our first guestwe'll

Kat (37:19):
oh my God.
I would love that.
Okay.

Val (37:21):
The rest of'em, those are somes of the major ones, I
guess, you know, the other ways.
Well, which one shouldattachment styles?
We've talked about them alreadyagain, please.
People.
This is not a, a blood test.
I know.
And, and I've see people on theinterwebs, like making up all
these different kinds and it'slike, okay, whatever.

(37:43):
It's like, if it's helpful toknow, right.
What level of intimacy youdesire?
What level of closeness and yourpatterns and, and you know, what
your tendencies are, right?
That's the basis of attachmentstyles.

Kat (37:59):
So there's anxious, attachment there's avoidant
attachment style, and thenthere's the mixed, or is it
called mixed?
It's called something else

Val (38:06):
There's one called disorganized dis, which is like
combination, which is like helpYeah.
And you can have an anxious, youcan have an anxious, avoidant
combo.
Right.
I just tell people, look at thebehaviors.
Right.
You know, and just kind of, it'sreally about how comfortable you
feel and what you do, how youreact.
If you're not getting theintimacy you want, if it's too

(38:27):
much or too little.
Yeah.

Kat (38:28):
Yeah.
But seriously, in interpersonalrelationships, when, when you
guys start having those kinds ofconversations, it's really
helpful to know the information.
Oh yeah.
To just give you some tools tonavigate some shit.

Val (38:40):
We talk about this in a previous episode.
Go, you can go, we, we go intoit a little bit more about,

Kat (38:44):
is that the breakup of stuff?

Val (38:46):
I love it.
I think it's either love stinksor the breakup episode.
Probably both of'em.
Yeah.
So if attachment styles get inthat and a lot of my work with
people who are dating or lookingfor love, we're talking about
attachment style and if you'reon a rollercoaster, my dear,
dear, dear, dear loved one.
If you're on a rollercoaster,you're probably in the anxious
avoidant pair.
And if you feel like you're justlosing your mind, you're

(39:09):
probably on that rollercoaster.
So gimme a call.
Well, no stop telling people.
Good luck.

Kat (39:16):
good help.
okay.

Val (39:17):
Okay.
sending you love and light onthat.
Good luck.
Seems like.
Yeah.
Good

Kat (39:22):
luck.
Oh, good luck.
So yeah.
I see.
I can hear that.
Yeah.
I mean it sincerely.

Val (39:26):
Aw,

Kat (39:27):
I'm like, oh,

Val (39:28):
Aw.
You're sincere

Kat (39:30):
about it.
I love it.
that's so funny.

Val (39:34):
Another old one.
Well from our church days waslove languages.
Oh yeah.
But I think it's still in,

Kat (39:40):
Yeah.
It's in mainstream

Val (39:41):
culture.
Mainstream culture.
People are also railing againstit unnecessarily

Kat (39:45):
these were mad about all kind.

Val (39:47):
all, all it really is, is like, let's identify your, first
reaction.
Right?

Kat (39:53):
Right.
Or what's meaningful to you.
How do you understand love andwhat do you, how do you want to
share love or, or demonstratelove?
Like, I, I love memes that showup are like, my love language is
tacos.
You know what I mean?
That's so funny.

Val (40:06):
right.
I was.
And some like deeper ones todayI was looking at that was like,
love languages is also likebeing accountable for your
actions and blah, blah.
I'm like, that's emotionalintelligence.
That's not a love language, butI get what you're saying.

Kat (40:18):
It's that's so funny.
So the main love languages,there's five, according to this
one researcher

Val (40:24):
person.
Yes.
And he's a Christian and hassome real problematic views
about

Kat (40:29):
him.
But thank you

Val (40:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's nobody else.
Like, it's not like there'sanother version of this, so.
Okay.
Thank you for your gift to theworld.

Kat (40:36):
acts of service mm-hmm right.
So RAI does the dishes, right?
That's how he's

Val (40:41):
say, I just tell you this quick story.
That's very funny.
Yeah.
I was crying probably, maybeabout infertility.
I don't know what it was, but Icame to him weeping one night.

Kat (40:50):
Yeah.
A long time ago.

Val (40:50):
Yeah.
Long time ago he looked me inthe eyes and he was like,
actually, probably didn't evenlook me in the eyes coward.
No

Kat (40:58):
Jesus Christ.

Val (40:59):
no, no, no.
He, he just, he turned to me andhe.

Kat (41:02):
goes,

Val (41:03):
I'm gonna go get your favorite soup and like ran out
of the house.
there's a pattern of this manrunning away from me and my
emotions.
But he just ran out of the houseand like went and bought Fu or
something.
I

Kat (41:14):
me.

Val (41:15):
know.
And if I didn't know about lovelanguages.
Yeah.
I probably would've changed thelocks.
Yeah.
You, the meaning you make youfucker I'm in crisis and you're
and I was like, so instead I waslike, oh, I see what he's doing.
He has no idea what to sayemotionally.

Kat (41:30):
Right.
So he's gonna do an acts ofservice.
Right?
Okay.
Yeah.
So acts of service.

Val (41:36):
Words of affirmation.
So, you know, that's mine.
Yeah, me too.
Pretty please.
Yeah.
That's all I need.
Tell me why some people even sayyou're amazing Val.
I'm like, but tell me why.
I'm amazing.
Give me a lot of words.
Not a cracker.
Yeah.
yeah, exactly.

Kat (41:50):
I mean, it's so funny that you said what what'd you say you
want people to say to you?

Val (41:56):
just now?

Kat (41:56):
re yeah, just now, what do you want them to say to you?

Val (41:58):
Tell me what, tell me why you think I'm amazing,

Kat (42:01):
right?
You think I'm amazing.
But the first thing I said waslike, tell me I'm pretty

Val (42:04):
Oh, I

Kat (42:06):
thought that was funny.

Val (42:07):
that is funny.
Yeah.
And then there's gifts andphysical touch.
Right.
And I think, I think, right.
We know the basics is that wetry to love people out of what
we want and just recognizing,and again, this was so pivotal
in my relationship because youthink like, oh, it's just this
little thing.
No, I felt deeply unlovedbecause quality time and words

(42:31):
of affirmation are my biggestlove languages.
And you know, in the age of cellphones, it was a very distract
this isn't quality time.
So it's a big deal.
If he's like, babe, I left myphone at home.
It's like, what?
maybe that's why his, oh, Ihaven't thought about this in a
while.
Maybe that's why his travel isso upsetting to me is that he's
gone so much and quality time isone of my things, right?

(42:51):
Yeah.

Kat (42:51):
My other big one is, is physical touch.
Like, you know, especially ifI'm in a romantic connection
with someone, but even just myfriends, like, like physically
being close together, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.

Val (43:02):
That's a big one.
Yeah.
Feeling love.
So, like knowing that, and thenmaking the efforts and the bids
of connection, knowing thatthat's what your partner's
language is.
Right.
So now I honestly, I see hisacts more as love than as, just
like before I'm like, oh, likeit's not my language stop doing
it.

Kat (43:19):
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then at some point all ofthese are sort of necessary,
right.
Cause if you have a, you know, aperson in your life that says, I
love you, I love you.
I love you.
And they will never do any nextof service that that's gonna bug
you at some point, too.
Sure.
You know, and same thing withlike, I, I mean, maybe you
really don't care about gifts,but if the person or people you

(43:39):
love and care about, like theynever,

Val (43:41):
like not on your birthday even.
Yeah,

Kat (43:43):
Right.
So, so there is some of thattoo, right?
Like they're all important.
Like we, we have lots ofabilities to love each other.
Well, sure.
So.

Val (43:52):
Yeah.
There's also, I, I, I think hewas supposed to come out with a
book on it.
I don't think it ever came out,but he was gonna do apology
languages.
I thought that was fascinating.
It's

Kat (44:01):
you should write that book, Val.

Val (44:03):
I'll just steal it from him.
What do you need out of anapology?
Do you want, do you just need tohear the words I am?
Sorry.
Is that enough?
Do you need to, do you need themto know and repeat to you why it
hurt you?
Do you need to hear that?
They'll never do it again andwhat they're gonna do instead.

Kat (44:19):
Fascinating.

Val (44:20):
you need to learn, hear them say what they learned from
it?

Kat (44:23):
Oh yeah.

Val (44:24):
I mean, also it shouldn't be my book because I'm still
dealing with like, we're stillearly in the apology journey if
you listen to our older podcast,

Kat (44:32):
but

Val (44:33):
I thought that was really interesting too, knowing like
what you need from that.

Kat (44:38):
Yeah.
I love that.
That's so helpful.

Val (44:40):
sharing the other one that, and these aren't personality
stuff, these are just like,preferences know yourself, but
even like your trauma response,like, Oh, of course.
you know, we talk about fightflight freeze, right?
Those are sort of the, the old,the

Kat (44:52):
OJ, the ones that most everyone knows, but yeah, the
one I find myself doing or havedone is fawning.
Right,

Val (44:57):
right.
So FAW and faint they've added.
And somebody told me aboutanother one and I'm like, okay
guys, come on.
If you're like not the nationalcenter for trauma.
I don't know if I need to knowsome other kind of penguin.
Are you penguin?
I don't know penguin.
I, I just made it up, butsometimes people just make shit
up.
Somebody told me a response thatI, it is unnerving.

(45:19):
This is what, what doctors mustfeel like with web ND where
they're like, I think I havethis, like, you know, and then
you're like, come on, you justfound

Kat (45:26):
they're just like, I know myself.

Val (45:28):
this is just basically I had a client asked me this and
it was a great question.
Like, are we, what are we tryingto do with our.
Type are we trying to eradicateit?
And I said, well, it's great toknow that this is your reaction
to your body signaling to youthat you're in danger.
Yeah.
Right.
And, and are, we don't know thedifference between emotional
danger.
It's just it's danger.

Kat (45:49):
right.

Val (45:49):
And old stuff, getting trapped in our body.
So do you get angry?
Do you attack, do you run, doyou want to run away?
That's what you think about, doyou, or do you hide or just
ignore that fawning?
I think of the freeze, I feellike I freeze a lot.
If someone says something, Idon't know what to say.
Yeah.
Or later on, I'll figure outlike, oh, I should have said

(46:11):
this or that or

Kat (46:12):
I think sometimes I don't know my reaction right away, cuz
I freeze.

Val (46:16):
Mm.

Kat (46:17):
and then I have I've, you know, whatever fucking all the
church shit, but like I alwayshave the exact right response
first, like right in the eyes ofthe other person.
So there's a little of the fondmixed in.
So someone's coming at me withsomething, you know, like I will
just not in the moment, notnecessarily know what my own
emotional reaction is, freezeuntil like I can get a handle on

(46:42):
it and then say back to themexactly what they need to hear.
I will say the exact right thingto them.

Val (46:48):
Yeah.
That's the fun.
Yeah.
So

Kat (46:50):
And then later I have to sort through it and be like,
okay, so here's what, here'swhat I gotta share here.

Val (46:57):
Yeah, yeah.
So the funny, if you've neverheard of that is like basically
reacting in a way that isappeasing, the other person,
making them happy and so thatthey don't attack

Kat (47:07):
it.
Yeah.
It, it nullifies the threat orthe perceived threat.
Right.
Because this is justinterpersonal relationships.
Yeah.
You know, if I was ever likereally like being attacked, I
don't, I don't know if I wouldfreeze.
I don't, I've not been in a

Val (47:18):
Right, right.
What I like, well, even when youtalk about like, right, like if
there's a dog, like, okay.
Pretty Dougy.
Who's a pretty Dougy.
Oh, you're so nice.
That's

Kat (47:28):
your neighbor's dog was barking real loud.
When I came here, you know whatI was doing?
I was fucking fawning at thatdog.
And, well, I wasn't superfawning, but I was like soothing
that fucker.
Yeah.
Right.

Val (47:38):
Yeah.
And we do like we, we know whatto do with different animals,
right?
Like, like they, you know,certain bears, you just run
what, and the other one you playdead.
Right.
That would be the, so anyway,knowing that can be really
helpful in just kind of gettingreconnected to your body,
understanding how you respond tothreats and

Kat (47:56):
and advocating for your needs too.
Right.
Like, so people that I'm inclose relationship with where
this pattern might show up, thenI get to say, you know, like,
Hey, I'm gonna take a few beats.
It just is gonna take me sometime to, to know how I feel
about whatever that stimuli was.
Yeah.
But I'll tell you the rightfucking thing, right.
To your goddamn face.

Val (48:15):
Yeah.
Appease.
Well, you said you spent a lotof time being good and that was
your protective mechanism.

Kat (48:21):
I got real good at being real good.
Yeah.

Val (48:24):
And then I think there's other things like, just knowing
your learning style.
Oh yeah.
You know, are, do you need tosee things verbally or audibly
or, or are you a tactile, akinesthetic learner?
Like, do you need to actually doit and have someone show you?
Yeah.
Are you a, are you an externalprocessor?
Are you a verbal processor?
I am.

(48:45):
I I'm gonna do some moreresearch and get back to you on
that answer.
I'm not really sure yet.

Kat (48:51):
I'm a verbal processor.
Are you teasing

Val (48:53):
I am.

Kat (48:53):
Okay.
I was like, it's pretty obvious.

Val (48:57):
is obvious.

Kat (48:59):
Would you say you are too?
Oh yeah.
You gotta say that loud,

Val (49:02):
It's it's and, and they say it's the extrovert thing.
Like extroverts have a reallyhard time with silence.
And then I think that like, wellthe last one we'll just touch on
real quick is like, I think it'sreally important to know like
your nervous system.
I don't know.
I'm sure there's a quiz outthere somewhere you could take,
but like knowing what soothesyou,

Kat (49:23):
right.

Val (49:24):
Is it, is it a forest?
Is it the water?
Is it a dark room?
quiet.
Dark room, right?
Like, are you, do you like thedesert?
You know what are the thingsthat soothe you from your
senses?
You know sense and, and tastesand textures.
Yeah.
And even views or things thatyou look at that, that calm you

(49:47):
down colors.
What colors?
I had a friend who painted herbedroom, like bright red and,
and that actually raises yourheart rate.
So I dunno if you're gonna havea spicy bedroom all the time,
but like, I want my bedroom tobe calm too, you know?
Yeah.

Kat (49:59):
Yeah.
Well, again, you know, this ishow we learn how to care for
ourselves.
Well, right.
So a lot of these are in contextof like navigating human
relationships.
But the truth is like, when youknow what soothes your nervous
system, that's you get to dothat.
Right.
You can tell other people, andthat can be helpful too.
But like, like this is

Val (50:19):
our your relationship with yourself is number one.
Like when we talk about being inrelationship yeah.
This helps your relationshipwith yourself.
Right.

Kat (50:26):
And then you can advocate for yourself, you know?
So if you're activated in someway, like now you you've learned
these things, you know, you needto do,

Val (50:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and in that sensing part,we've talked about this before
the highly sensitive person, theHSP.
And that for me also, if you'reanxious, I want you to go and
we'll, we'll put all the linksin the show notes, but I want
you to go and take an HS P testbecause they say that they wanna
have everybody who's diagnosedwith anxiety, also screened for
HSP.
And it's not just like, oh my,my emotions are sensitive.

(50:56):
It's that they're doing researchthat they're people that are HSP
have like, I don't know, 20%more like neural endings and
like a brain activity.
So it's almost like let's sayyour outdoor video cameras, you
can set the reactivity.
Mm.
Right.
The intensity, like, you know,zero to 10, so it's like, your
sensitivity has been dialed upbecause you have more of that

(51:18):
activity and then crossing overwith that is being an empath.
So if you have more of that, butthen you're also more you have a
heightened reaction to stimuli.
Yeah.
And this, again, the Venndiagram of overlap between.
Like neuro neuro divergence,sensory processing ad the
sensory processing and ADHD, theoverload that might come with O

(51:41):
C, D or anxiety.
So there's lots of differentnuances in all of this, but you
know, the, the, the mainquestions are like, were you
told you were dramatic as achild?
Yes, I, I used to think that Iwas just being nasty to Rafiq
when he talks so loud on thephone and he's always on the
phone.
And I felt like if he wastalking to someone else, he was

(52:02):
yelling at me.
Or like, I found that I, mynervous system was dysregulated.
Yeah.
It wasn't even talking to me.
Right.
It was just around.

Kat (52:11):
No.
Oh my gosh.
My kids are watching YouTube andif it's on the television there,
there are these very loud men.
Doing fun things that enjoy mykids

Val (52:21):
enjoy mm-hmm

Kat (52:22):
but I'm like, I cannot hear the yelling guys.
Okay.
I try not to be like, I don'twanna be a downer on the stuff
that they are enthusiasticabout, but I was like, Hey, I
get activated.
Just listen to these men yell.
They're just yelling so much.
I'm like, no, I can't.
And so I'm like, we have to puta calming show on.
Nice.

Val (52:42):
yeah, no, I, I have to I got some noise canceling
headphones.
That's good job because Icouldn't turn my music up loud
enough to, to drown'em out.
Yeah.
See know yourself, knowyourself, not yourself.
All right.
That was like a

Kat (52:54):
down bite at everyone.
It was, but it was fun.
Right.
Did you guys have fun?

Val (53:00):
so just like a little smorgasborg just like, we just
give you a little appetizerlittle tree.
We'll probably come back around,circle back around and talk at
depth in some of these otherones at some point, probably.
This

Kat (53:11):
this is fun.
Thank you for, yeah.
I like the umbrella overview.

Val (53:14):
Yeah.
And we'll, we'll have links inthe show notes that, you know,
follow your curiosity and whatserves you.
And maybe you heard yourself inthere a little bit and just keep
on that journey of understandingyourself so that you can center
yourself and you can just livewith a calm, nervous system.
Doesn't it feel amazing.
This sound amazing.

Kat (53:33):
It sounds amazing.
Oh, thanks friend.

Val (53:36):
love you.

Kat (53:37):
you.
Bye.