August 16, 2022 • 47 mins
Anxiety is a nearly universal human experience. It’s not fun. It feels terrible. Yuck. Kat and Val open up about their experiences with anxiety and share how they’ve learned to navigate this very normal (though unpleasant) sensation.
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
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Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole by Susan Cain
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
Yay.
Hello?
Val
Val (00:37):
you're here.
Kat (00:38):
Mm Yes I brought a small human with me,
Val (00:43):
did You're small.
Human is just
Kat (00:46):
yeah.
Chill.
Yeah.
Happily, because you know, yougive a kid media.
here you go.
Headphones.
Here you go
Val (00:52):
Treat treats.
Ooh.
Well, speaking of my
Kat (00:57):
you're full size human
Val (00:58):
back.
Yeah.
Full size human he's back
Kat (01:01):
it's not like a snack size RKA is kind of a
Val (01:07):
Oh my gosh.
Kat (01:09):
Right.
So we had an episode where hewas away for too long.
Yeah.
Right.
Yep.
And how's reentry been, cuz he'sback now,
Val (01:17):
You know, it's, it's been good.
I, I was joking with you that Iwas gonna end the episode, like
with tune in next time folks, tosee
Kat (01:26):
I think you do say something like that.
Did I,
Val (01:28):
I
Kat (01:29):
Or maybe it was in the drug episode where you're like, maybe
we're gonna do drugs.
We'll let you know
Val (01:33):
That's right.
Yep.
That's right.
No drugs
Kat (01:35):
yet.
For someone who might not knowwe're referencing the episode
called unsolvable problems andthe unsolvable problem is simply
refi travels for work a lotlonger than feels comfortable
for you,
Val (01:46):
Right.
Yeah.
And it's kind of intermixed withlike his family's there.
Sure.
Right.
And it's been going on a longtime.
We've done a lot of creativethings or tried to figure it
out.
Love is a decision and it is,it, it is a decision to stay in
a partnership.
Right.
But love is also a feeling itcould be intense or and, and the
other night we were coming backfrom somewhere, I'm like, babe,
(02:07):
we really do have something gooddon't we like, we really do have
a good life together.
Don't we?
And he goes, yeah.
And he had just said that to mea couple days ago.
Right.
And he's like, yeah.
And he looks at me.
But I missed my family.
I was like, fuck you.
And I was like, dude, did youreally just, he tried to change
the subject.
I'm like, dude.
Kat (02:26):
mm-hmm
Val (02:26):
he's like, but I really wanna make sure you understand
how hard it is to, and I'm like,we've had conversations.
I get
Kat (02:32):
it.
Yeah.
Val (02:32):
I, do really get it.
And also you don't wanna live inBrazil,
Kat (02:35):
Right
Val (02:36):
so you've already made it tough to say
Kat (02:38):
right.
And so really it's like him,holding the tension and not
asking you to hold the tensionquite as much too.
Right.
So what does that make anysense?
Like, these are the choices thathe's made, but then because he
made that choice, then it hasthis like deep impact on you.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And how much of that is yourresponsibility to hold versus be
like, that was your choice,dude.
Val (02:57):
But then when you're, partnered up with someone it's
in some ways becomes yourproblem, and sometimes we work
on that problem together andsometimes you've got to manage
that, those feelings on your ownas well.
I get it.
And also here we are.
So then, I think it was more ofmaybe an ADHD thing of just
like, you know, Ruining themoment.
(03:19):
Sorry.
Kat (03:23):
talking about us.
You can't bring your fuckingfamily up.
That's hilarious.
Val (03:26):
Can you just let me have this moment, like,
Kat (03:29):
and like stay present in this
Val (03:30):
I'm trying to express, something to you.
Right.
And I mean, I've probably donethat to him a million times too.
Right.
So, I think it's only fair, butthen later he's like, no, babe,
We really do have a good lifetogether.
So, so there we go.
That's the update from
Kat (03:48):
the unsolvable problems.
Val (03:49):
the unsolvable problems.
Kat (03:50):
We're just assuming listeners, you're listening to
every fucking podcast we put outwe would love that if that were
true.
Val (03:59):
And then remember it
Kat (04:00):
Oh exactly right.
Yeah.
Val (04:02):
this is our lives.
Kat (04:03):
Like we,
Val (04:04):
we barely remember it.
Kat (04:06):
So, that you know,
Val (04:08):
so if we are repeating or referencing back, you know, for,
for all of you who are likereally falling along, we're your
favorite soap opera pleaseforgive us for those,
duplications,
Kat (04:17):
Yeah Oh
Val (04:19):
how are you doing KA?
Kat (04:21):
Oh my gosh.
I'm doing okay I'm on anupswing, which I'm pretty
grateful for.
Yeah.
A couple episodes ago we talkedabout drugs and so that was kind
of exciting, but like I've beenmicrodosing and it seems to be
helpful, like I'm microdosingCIL, which is, you know,
mushroom powder and it isworking the way like an
antidepressant would work inthat it sort of just gives, give
(04:44):
me a sense of general wellbeingand then just like a bit of
uptick in my energy level, whichoh my goodness.
Such a fucking
Val (04:52):
yes yay.
Kat (04:53):
And then, you know so my health stuff is coming along.
I think that I've developed anintolerance to gluten, so I've
been sort of staying away fromgluten and then I learned about
this amazing treat from you.
I learned it from you, Val.
Val (05:05):
learned it by watching you.
Kat (05:08):
yeah.
So your husband's Brazilian andthen at one of your parties, you
serve these little likeBrazilian cheese breads that are
made from tapioca flour andcheese, and they're like stupid,
delicious.
Chewy and crispy and savory,they're like, just so good.
So, you know, like gluten is ina lot of wonderful treats and I,
I don't think that food ismoral, so I just enjoy whatever
I enjoy.
(05:28):
But of course I don't wanna feelso sick.
Like I'm dying.
Yeah.
So I'm like, oh, these littlecheese bread things are like,
just the best thing.
So I brought some to you todayand we had some while we were
setting up and stuff.
Yeah.
So that's so fun.
Oh, and I'm still meeting withlike a specialist to, determine
if there's any like additionaldiagnosis or if it's just a
sensitivity or what it might be.
Yeah, it was kind of a roughroad for a little while and I'm,
(05:49):
I'm on the upswing mm-hmmsometimes you're not totally
aware of how, like far gone youare until you start to feel a
little better Again you're likehundred percent.
Oh my God.
How did I even survive all that?
Yes.
Oh, So I'm getting a littleperspective
Val (06:02):
Oh, today.
We, we talked about depressionright.
We're going in for anxiety now.
yeah,
Kat (06:11):
let's get
Val (06:11):
Let's get into it.
Ah well I figured we first justtalk about our own experiences
with anxiety.
Yeah.
You wanna go first?
Kat (06:20):
you were telling me that, like, you didn't notice anxiety
as part of your life when you'reyounger and that's really true
for me too.
Like, I didn't have language forit.
I didn't know.
It was a thing.
I may have been experiencing it,but I mean, it was sort of lost
in, I spent most of my childhoodpretty numb, because of
childhood trauma and stuff, justlike a coping mechanism just
turned everything off.
Yeah.
But then once I was like awayfrom my family origin, I was,
you know, we were in Biblecollege together.
(06:42):
Everything felt fun.
Right.
I mean, even though like, it'sso funny, cuz I think of it now
it's kind of like oppressiveworldview.
Right.
But I was like, but Biblecollege was kind of fun, you
know?
Cause you're around all thesepeople that are your age and
just like, people are fun
Val (06:56):
You know, why too, because you know, there's a verse in the
Bible that talks about you're analien among people.
Right.
And I really felt that I reallyfelt different, right.
Because of the things my parentswanted us to not do.
So you felt very othered, Andthen, unless you went to a
larger church yeah.
You didn't have a lot of friendsthat understood everything.
So, so I think it was just a bigplayground.
(07:17):
And since we were all like, yep,these are the rules, like yep.
We're following them for theLord.
Kat (07:25):
Yeah.
Val (07:25):
then it was sort of like, yeah.
Okay.
We have these boundaries, buteveryone's follow'em and
everyone's happy.
And you have all these friends.
It was a lovely time in somesome,
Kat (07:33):
ways I do have fond memories too.
Val (07:34):
I was gonna say that I didn't realize I had anxiety
until I went to grad school andstarted to study it.
And right before that I hadtaken a trip.
I had a friend who was workingin Shanghai, Beijing, and she's
like, come on over.
So I spent time with her and Iactually think it was a mixture
of really bad jet lag.
Oh.
And anxiety.
And I was going through a, arough time.
(07:56):
We had just left the church andnone of the nights could I
sleep?
I wish I had some drugs or evenjust some melatonin at that
point.
And I was like heartpalpitations.
And I was like, trying to timemy heart.
Was I having a heart attack?
So I think it was having somepanic and some anxiety that
once, like you see the list ofphysical symptoms of anxiety,
I'm like, oh my gosh, I was justanxious.
And I needed to sleep probably
Kat (08:17):
Oh yeah.
Val (08:18):
it was, it was really terrible.
And then I look back and Ithink, well, was I anxious as a
kid?
I had stomach aches.
You know, you went to the nursea lot for stomach aches.
Like maybe that was littleanxiety.
And then I had, even though Idon't remember dreams now, I had
a lot of reoccurring dreamswhere like things happen to my
parents.
And then of course, I didn'twanna tell them But like I had
dreams about them dying,
Kat (08:39):
Yeah
Val (08:40):
but I don't remember worrying as a kid
Kat (08:43):
Or catastrophizing isn't that what you told me Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (08:46):
I don't really remember that.
But then after realizing I'mlike, oh yeah, I think I have
way more anxiety now.
And you and I were just talkingabout well, why, why would that
be?
Kat (08:55):
Yeah.
Is it because we're like moreaware of our own mortality or
like.
Or we just, we're moreself-aware maybe too,
Val (09:02):
Like, are the stakes higher?
are the stakes higher?
We're adults now?
Like what's
Kat (09:06):
happening Oh yeah You have a lot more actual
responsibilities Yeah.
Yeah Being a kid.
Val (09:10):
Yeah.
Or we were talking about chronicillness, right?
If you Google it, oh, chronicillness can cause depression and
anxiety.
Is it chicken or egg?
Does that just come along as abonus or are we anxious or
depressed about the pain?
Of course.
Right.
Yeah.
and you were talking about like,yeah, we just have more to be
anxious
Kat (09:28):
about pain is so debilitating in all the possible
ways.
You know, if it's chronic andongoing, it's hard to stay
upbeat you know?
Yeah.
And then I was noticing like, Myfirst awareness that I was like,
truly anxious it was mixed inwith the grief of my, dad dying.
So I was, 29 and I just wasfinally aware of depression,
anxiety as things that we'retalking about regularly.
(09:50):
And then you know, my mother, Ihad seen my mother live through
lots of like panic attacks andthings like that.
And so I, I experienced onewhile I was like out in public
with my then boyfriend nowex-husband and I just couldn't
bear to be out in public aroundhuman beings.
And it was just such a, like a,this overwhelming sensation of,
(10:11):
of kind of like panic, right?
Yeah.
And and I did the need to fleeand I felt trapped it was really
terribly uncomfortable.
And then since then, you know,as my chronic illness
progressed, like I, I live withpain.
And so like, my mobility is prelimited, so I can't walk or
stand for too long without,without it being like dramatic
pain.
I have more like testing to dowith the doctor, but like,
(10:33):
because of COVID they moved outof the seating out of this one
particular area or the lab whereyou would, you had to wait in
line.
And so it's just interesting.
Like I have to think about waymore stuff than I used to have
to think about, like where can Ipark?
Right.
Cause it's a big parkingstructure and then to get from
the parking garage and to theelevator, to the lab.
And then like before I can talkto a person, you gotta wait in
(10:54):
line before you can talk to aperson and say, I need a seat
and that's too much.
And it gives me anxiety.
So I have to go like superfucking early first thing in the
morning.
There's no line.
Mm.
And so like, you can create somework rounds, but God damnit, I
can't do this thing for my own.
Selfcare without.
Fully knowing I will experiencephysical pain.
Right.
Because they don't, they're notaccommodating what my needs are.
So like my ongoing anxiety isoften that it's like, I will be
(11:18):
in pain if I don't know whereall the seats are gonna be.
Cuz I'll have to sit down.
Val (11:23):
I, I used to be very anxious on Saturday nights
because, you know, Sunday was myWorkday at church and I was
leading worship in, in heelswith chronic pain.
Right.
Standing for like
Kat (11:33):
what the fuck you stayed in heels that whole time.
Val (11:37):
Yeah.
Kat (11:38):
Foul.
Val (11:38):
Well, it wasn't as painful as it is now.
it was, it was still uh
Kat (11:44):
all my heels.
I don't even have them anymore
Val (11:45):
We used to do, a service in the morning and a service at
night and it's that, pain thatyou feel like you shouldn't be
functioning, but you try.
And when we would do anything onSaturday nights, I would be
really upset and anxious aboutit.
I had told RAI and I'm like,well, I'm just worried that if I
do too much tonight, and at themoment he had a good, reframe
for me that I hadn't thoughtabout.
That was helpful.
(12:06):
And yeah, I think as you getolder, the stakes get higher.
I mean, there's a lot of talkabout just the state of our
world climate change, making
Kat (12:13):
kids Oh yeah Just
Val (12:15):
that we're, exposed to so much news media.
the internet and, you know,technology has like opened up
the world so much.
I mean, was just so affirming toread somewhere on social media
that someone was like pointingout.
We were not meant to hold thismuch tragedy or news around the
world.
It's just too much.
So, so maybe that's why we'reall a little more anxious too.
Kat (12:38):
Yeah.
I mean, that makes a lot ofsense.
So what do we do now?
Val?
I'm like suddenly I don't feelas good in my body as I did 10
minutes ago.
how about we like break forcommercial and we'll come back.
Val (12:50):
Listen to our commercials.
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Val (13:48):
Okay.
We're back.
Did you, did you miss this?
Were you anxiously
Kat (13:51):
awaiting?
Yeah.
Val (13:52):
Our return.
Kat (13:53):
Alright, so here we go.
Val (13:55):
So I should just also say, I work a lot with anxiety more
than I honestly, more thandepression in
Kat (14:00):
my practice.
Val (14:00):
So, so I'm talking about anxiety day in and
Kat (14:04):
yeah out, Sure
Val (14:06):
And applying most of it to my own life
Kat (14:08):
lifetime
Val (14:08):
is really, really helpful.
Good job.
But I wanna talk about a conceptcalled anticipatory anxiety,
right?
You maybe have heard it before,right?
We've talked about radicalacceptance on this podcast that
just there's gonna be sufferingin life, but we there's ways
that we can reduce suffering.
Right.
The part of the suffering thatwe're we're in control of, and
there are things let's justvalidate that there are things
(14:29):
in this world that are verytroubling and a lot of our
concerns are very valid.
Right.
And so just recognizing.
The anticipatory anxiety, andit's almost like you can
anticipate the anxiety you'regoing to
Kat (14:43):
Right.
Yeah.
totally
Val (14:44):
So, so sort of noticing it, finding ways to soothe yourself
distract.
Right.
So that you're not addinganxiety on top of anxiety.
Which really is what a panicattack is.
Yeah.
It's when you start to worryabout anxious symptoms and then
that kind of sends you into astate that feels really, really
terrible.
Kat (15:02):
Sure.
Yeah.
Val (15:04):
But I thought first we'd zoom out.
Mm-hmm and I was like, okay,what's Katherine gonna talk
about anxiety.
And I don't know why I wasthinking about this, but I'm
like, you know, the wayKatherine deals with anxiety is
she's zoomed out and has beenlike,
Kat (15:17):
Non-attachment to outcome.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
So it's part of my spiritualpractice, right?
Is like some of these kind ofBuddhist concepts mm-hmm right.
So like non-judgment is a goodone.
Right.
And then, so then you apply thatto yourself.
Right?
So I notice that mitigates myown anxiety when I'm not worried
about my performance in a, B orC, cuz I am gonna accept and
(15:38):
love myself regardless.
Right.
So I don't judge myself harshly,but then the other one is like
non-attachment to outcome, whichI'm not perfect at at all, but
like
Val (15:47):
but
Kat (15:47):
it does mitigate anxiety too, when you're like, I'm gonna
be present with whatever, right.
This is gonna go, however, it'sgonna go.
I might, you know, I might beable to try my best or
something, but like, I'm notgoing to try to like grasp
tightly and control the outcome.
I'm not interested in being apuppet master for my own life or
for the humans that are close tome.
That doesn't feel good at all.
(16:08):
That makes me feel anxious.
Val (16:09):
Right?
Mm.
Kat (16:10):
Cause we actually can't control shit.
Val (16:11):
Ooh.
Well, that's a big one.
Yeah.
That is a big one is control.
Right.
Kat (16:16):
Or the illusion of control
Val (16:18):
there you The illusion of control so I think there's lots
of tools that we can implementin the moment.
But right now we're talkingabout sort of these outlooks and
views and philosophies, right.
That I think shifting them.
Right.
And just looking at that can bereally helpful.
So looking at control, and Ithink a lot of anxiety is to try
(16:40):
to keep in control and like, Iwould love to validate if you're
out there.
Like we can talk about the rootsof anxiety.
Sure.
It could be genetic that couldbe really run in your family or
your household was run by a lotof anxious people.
right.
Kat (16:55):
Or it might have been chaotic.
And so that created anxiety inyou.
Val (16:58):
or traumatic Right So there might be some reasons why you
started to go, okay.
I need to be the grown up hereor, Hey, I can't just kind of
take it easy
Kat (17:08):
or I can't trust other people, so I gotta do it all
myself.
Right.
That's a thing too, for
Val (17:12):
And again, I feel like we partner up with people it's the
yin and the a right.
But I married someone that isvery impulsive and More fly by
the seat of their pants Andespecially when I was younger,
it was a lot more rigidity,like.
Kat (17:27):
oh yeah.
Val (17:28):
well, that's not how things are done.
why can't we do this?
I don't know.
No one does it
Kat (17:33):
way.
Val (17:34):
Right.
That's just how my brain
Kat (17:36):
was.
Mm-hmm
Val (17:37):
I've opened up.
Right.
So so because I was able to havea little bit of openness.
Yeah.
I think that my way of seeingthings has really been shifted
by him.
Right.
And just being able to be well,this.
Weird, but okay.
Kat (17:49):
Yeah.
Val (17:50):
or it's different or unexpected.
Right.
But I was noticing my controland so my husband you know, is
kind of a, a serialentrepreneur.
And I I had a friend who goes,so have you finally just
accepted that about him oh God,for the life of me, I was like,
please just have a W2 form.
Kat (18:07):
mm.
Val (18:08):
please just have a job that like, right.
Because security was soimportant.
Yeah.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Right.
We're not moralizing or judgingthat, but then you were talking
to me about like sort of theillusion of control.
Yeah.
Holding things more loosely.
Right.
Not becoming as attached.
Right.
Asking the deeper questions oflike, why, why does that feel so
(18:28):
important?
And a lot of that
Kat (18:31):
mm-hmm
Val (18:32):
right.
Has to do with the shoulds.
Kat (18:34):
right?
Yeah.
Val (18:35):
That we've been told we should have Right.
Whether that comes from religionculture, our cultures of origin,
capitalism, wide supremacy, likeall of that Yeah.
All the systems that tell us howlife really should go.
And it would be
Kat (18:50):
like external information internalized?
Yeah, go
Val (18:53):
Yeah.
No, that's good.
But, but I think that where alot of suffering comes in is
like, it is unbearable.
Like you could not bear this oneresult.
It has
Kat (19:02):
to be
Val (19:03):
one, this one feels unbearable.
You, you are just rejecting itfully,
Kat (19:07):
Oh oh yeah, yeah.
yeah
Val (19:08):
I felt that way a lot about divorce for a long time.
Like I just, I just couldn'texist.
Yeah.
If, if I had to get a divorce,it was unbearable.
I couldn't think
Kat (19:16):
that makes me think of, you know, the whole storyline of
Fiddler on the roof.
Right.
Like, cuz he has a worldview.
Right.
And his first daughter likesteps outside the rules.
She picks her own husband.
Right.
But he's a Jewish boy.
Right.
That's okay.
And then the next daughter, shelike what's the deal with this
guy?
But the point of it, the thirddaughter is trying to marry
outside the faith and, and thisis too far.
(19:37):
He's been pushed too far and hegoes, if I bend that far.
I'll break.
And I remember that being sopoignant in my own evolution
where like, I had some thingswhere I was like you know, these
are the rules, this is the boxwe're inside of.
And so you, you play good.
Right.
And things must to work out foryou.
Yeah.
But then some things wereshifting in my, in my world and
I was like, holy fuck.
(19:59):
I broke.
And then I realized, I looked atthat story so differently.
I was like, you know what, if wewill be brave enough to let
ourselves break because you, youbreak the fucking construct
Val (20:09):
out of the box
Kat (20:10):
and then suddenly you get to emerge the truest you, the
you, that is not just all theinformation you've
Val (20:18):
mm-hmm
Kat (20:18):
right?
All of that social coding hasbeen internalized and every
single one of us, we are all aproduct of our society.
We cannot help that.
That's how human beings grow anddevelop.
But when you allow thedissonance to get accelerated
enough, the actual breakinghappens, you find what's
underneath it.
And then you get to know thatperson and find that person live
(20:39):
in compassion and love to thatperson, man.
That's cool.
But it's fucking hard.
There's a lot of sufferingaround that.
Val (20:46):
Like you hope to break because then you're free.
Yeah.
Right.
You're out of that box.
I'm seeing like the Pillsburycinnamon roll
Kat (20:53):
or oh yeah.
Okay.
Val (20:55):
popping.
Ooh There's no you can't, youcan't fit those biscuits back in
that
Kat (20:58):
No you cannot
Val (21:00):
popped it's out, biscuits are out.
Kat (21:06):
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Val (21:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're talking about these veryrigid structures that are kept
to honestly keep people
Kat (21:12):
right.
To oppress people until like youknow benefit a few
Val (21:15):
to keep social order,
Kat (21:16):
Yeah Control people.
Oh gross.
I don't wanna be controlled by Idon't even wanna control myself.
Val (21:26):
oh my
Kat (21:29):
I mean, it like, I'm not particularly disciplined about
shit.
I'm like, I'll do it.
If it's fun, shut up.
Val (21:36):
that's of conflict goes from I'm like cat, come on, get
in control at all.
I don't even wanna controlmyself and I'm trying not to
control you, but see here's theword, the problem
Kat (21:47):
is
Val (21:49):
I'm not control.
I'm on
Kat (21:51):
Kenny
Val (21:52):
You're like,
Kat (21:52):
like no, that's super funny.
Does that give you anxiety
Val (21:58):
really funny.
No, it feels really good
Kat (22:00):
for
Val (22:00):
to like, say it and actually explain it.
but these systems you're talkingabout.
So I talk to clients about, lookthese systems when you have to
divest from them, right?
Like.
That's the only way to like, ifyou either have to play by the
rules, right.
Or then if you're like, wait aminute, this, this isn't serving
me.
I don't believe this anymore.
But then you have to divest fromit and it means that you're not
(22:22):
gonna get the perks or thebenefits of it.
Right.
So I call it the gold stars.
Like what kind of gold stars areyou getting from this system?
Right.
Kat (22:29):
So like, even we just think about like capitalism, right?
If you play all the rules,right.
You gotta, you gotta finishschool.
And by your senior year, yougotta have a great grade point
average.
You gotta have all these thingsto get into a good school.
Right?
Not like us so you wanna go to agood school so you can win
capitalism.
Right.
And then you gotta like alreadyknow as a teenager, what you
wanna do for the rest of yourfucking life.
(22:51):
Yeah.
Right.
And then you gotta spend andget, however many degrees is
gonna support that, you know,and then you gotta climb the
ladder.
It's all climb, push, push,grind, all that shit.
Right.
And so, you know, it does affordyou some privileges, if you can
work your way up, all that,Right.
Yeah.
And so, but also.
Are you getting to live yourauthentic life?
(23:11):
You know what I mean?
Like who, you know, again,capitalism gives you this gross
lie about like, find what youwanna do and turn into career,
like what you love and turn intoa career.
Like sometimes that works withlike in the artist community,
like that poisons people a lot,you know?
Val (23:26):
Yeah.
Like, oh yeah.
Find something you love andyou'll never work a day in your
life.
Well, I mean, and I think halfmy practice is with young people
who are maybe in their midthirties that are like, I'm
really struggling with my joband like kind of working through
some of the lies of capitalismor just like that your job is
supposed to be all this.
And it's like, yeah, all ofthat.
Right?
All,
Kat (23:45):
all of that And I'm not saying you can't work.
I can't, I'm not saying youcan't do work that you love
doing.
I'm not, I'm not evensuggesting.
I'm just saying like theinternalized ideas about it are
what we'd like to helpchallenge, you know, because
like who you are is inherentlyvaluable.
Doesn't have anything to do withlike how much education you have
or you know, how much money youmake.
Like, you know, and then like toknow that person to be in touch
(24:06):
with that person to not loseyourself in pursuit of following
the rules in order to win atlife, you know?
Val (24:12):
cause, cause who's saying what, what is, what is it to
win?
Kat (24:16):
I know, right?
It's just this cultural thingit's like out in the Z guys.
And like, you really can, peoplespend their whole fucking lives
chasing these things and tryingto attain something.
And then many people are like,God, I, I got to the top now,
what the fuck am I gonna do?
I, I
Val (24:30):
and this isn't making me happy.
Kat (24:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (24:34):
I hear people say all the time.
Why are celebrities or richpeople unhappy?
I mean, obviously there's, youknow, there's a, there's a
number.
They found the happiness number.
Obviously there's like a povertyline number, but, but money
doesn't necessarily make youhappy.
right.
But we've been told that that'sthe cap.
That's the capitalism
Kat (24:52):
game right Yeah.
Yeah When I think about whatstill makes me anxious, it's
it's sometimes I'm like, ohfuck, am I gonna have enough
money to survive?
And, and so that's just a realthing.
Right.
And so, and then like how toreconcile that with this other,
like zoomed out of like,ultimately everything's gonna be
okay.
I don't know how right.
Yeah.
And so I don't, it's not likeI'm saying, like I have all the
(25:14):
answers.
Exactly.
It's just like recognizing thatwe get We can live a life
differently than the one thatthe culture told us to strive
for.
Right.
And I really, I see that withlike the younger people are a
lot less tied up in all So I, I,I feel hopeful about that and I
(25:34):
I'm.
Yeah.
Val (25:36):
Well,, but I wanna loop it all the way back.
Cuz I think we started talkingabout capitalism cuz I had said
to you, a couple years ago aboutjust feeling worried about my
husband's lack of a W2 right.
And so when I looked at like, sowhat if he has a DB two?
Like, is it more stable?
Sure.
But also he could get fired.
It's the illusion.
It actually, it just feels moresafe or stable to have a job
(26:01):
that someone says, they're gonnagive you a paycheck every week
instead of like, oh, how muchdid you sell?
And what's our profit and right.
So I was like, oh, that that'sis exactly what cat was saying.
Like it's an illusion ofcontrol.
Right.
I saw a really big change in mylife honestly, after really
internalizing the idea about howcontrol is an illusion.
Kat (26:21):
Yeah.
Val (26:22):
And then, Just understanding about the lies of
diet culture and, and abouthealthism and that, like, we
really have so much control overour health.
We only have an amount ofcontrol over our health and so
much is out of our control Ithink coupled with like what
you're saying.
you're gonna be okay.
Yeah.
will it end up the way you want?
I don't know.
Will there be some pain?
(26:42):
Probably.
Will there be some happiness?
Probably.
But, but you're going to beokay.
Yeah.
And finding that piece
Kat (26:49):
Maybe we have like an idea of these things need to be in
place for me to be okay.
And it might be important tochallenge that too, because some
of those things might not be inplace, but if you just sit alone
with yourself, In some roomsomewhere and you're like, oh
right now I'm alive and I'mbreathing and, oh, I'm, I'm
actually okay.
Like in this exact moment here,I.
Val (27:10):
I am
Kat (27:11):
I'm okay.
And I have unknowns.
Right.
And then again, that's where theanxiety comes from.
I have unknowns.
Right.
But is life right now.
This present moment is the onlything we have.
It's the only thing that's real.
And actually I, I am.
Okay.
And then for me, the greatestcomfort is like some we die.
(27:33):
I'm totally convinced that like,on the other side of this life
is something pleasant.
Right.
I don't know exactly what it is,but I'm like, yeah, someday
it'll be over.
It's gonna be okay.
Val (27:43):
Well, I mean, how much anxiety can you relieve from
your life?
Yeah.
If you did a pie chart of howmany of all the things you're
anxious about or worried aboutif death is, is, is a big piece
of the pie, how much Wow.
Kat (27:55):
yeah.
I know lucky me it's cuz of thedrugs,
Val (27:58):
Well and going back to the control, I think for me, what
was the unbearable thing?
The unthinkable thing, yeah.
Was that we would fail and wewould.
Have to sort of leave the thingsthat we had mm-hmm and, and we
would be seen as failures and Ithink that once I was like,
could accept that and not holdon as tightly.
Yeah.
Like just really seeing my fistgoing from this really tight
(28:22):
fist to an open hand, holdingthings loosely.
Yeah.
And like, well, do I want thatto happen?
No, but now it's not the end ofthe world anymore.
If something were to happen or
Kat (28:32):
failure is a bit arbitrary too,
Val (28:34):
Yeah
Kat (28:35):
it's like cultural standard and like who who's out there
judging people, you know what Imean?
Like what
Val (28:40):
well, there's a lot of judgment that goes on, but then
also
Kat (28:43):
really matter, Yeah Yeah I mean in whose eyes, like at the
end of the day, like, this isthe thing, when I think about
anxiety and how to cope with it,it really is like creating this
inside space where you're kindto yourself.
Mm-hmm right.
Where you live and you cultivateyour own practice of
self-compassion where you'rejust like, yeah, I'm always
gonna be on my own side.
It's interesting.
(29:03):
I met someone the other day andthey were talking about how they
just recently moved to the bayarea and how it's quite
difficult to start all And I waslike, yeah.
And I was realizing I've donethat several times over in my
life.
I have started completely overin a new city and, you know, a
new job.
You know, even like once I hadall this like beautiful security
that I was, you know, constantlooking for, I had this like
(29:25):
marriage and two kids.
And my ex-husband had like deeproots
Val (29:28):
in,
Kat (29:29):
you know, this area of the world.
There was just all these thingsthat I thought that I wanted,
but I, I had to say goodbye tothat.
I had to think goodbye to allthat security because I like my,
my truest essential self waslike, I'm not in resonance right
now.
I was like, whoa, Catherine.
I didn't think that through Iwas like, I just was like
(29:50):
following the next thing that Iwas like, oh, I have to be all
the way me here.
And, and for some reason, thisrelationship isn't giving me the
space to And so inside of who Iam as a person, I just am.
Okay.
And again, all of us, when wefeel anxiety, if we can come
(30:10):
back to like this exact presentlike, are you worried about a
future thing?
Are you experiencing somethingright now?
And like, do the thing where youlike, touch your body and just
like, come right back to itreally helps if you've
cultivated a safe space inside,Through mindfulness or
meditation or whatever yourpractices are.
Yeah.
I'm gonna be okay and I'm gonnabreathe through this and yes,
it's uncomfortable.
(30:31):
Oh, what's the thing I love thatterm.
You gave us a few episodes agoabout discomfort.
Val (30:36):
distress
Kat (30:37):
tolerance, distress.
yeah,
Val (30:39):
yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (30:41):
Cause when you have a mindfulness practice or some
kind of self-compassionpractice, your ability to
tolerate distress.
Yeah.
You're just more flexible withyou're like, yes, this is
unpleasant.
Like even when I was so, sosick, I was like, obviously I
don't like this.
It's not fun.
It is getting me down.
But like I'm still, I'm stillactually.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm okay.
Val (31:02):
Self-compassion as a way to reduce your anxiety.
Yeah.
Yes.
When you're kind, when you'regentle and kind and
understanding and graceful toyourself and your you're, you're
continually reminding yourself,you're gonna be okay.
Anxiety tells you, like watchout.
You're not gonna be okay.
Right, right, right.
So I love that usingself-compassion right.
(31:24):
To reduce anxiety.
We had one more zoomed out one.
Kat (31:28):
Oh, What's it
Val (31:28):
perfectionism Another way to reduce anxiety, fucking
Kat (31:33):
Yeah Get rid of that
Val (31:34):
that shit.
Kat (31:35):
it's just, that's just white supremacy.
That's so gross.
Don't you think?
So?
Val (31:41):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, because you were asking mebefore, but how do you get, how
do you get rid of it,
Kat (31:46):
Yeah What do you do?
Yeah,
Val (31:47):
Because it is hard,
Kat (31:48):
Again, internalized concepts,
Val (31:51):
Yeah.
Well, I love the quote that saysEngaging in perfectionism
ensures that you'll be in aperpetual state of self doubt.
Kat (31:59):
Mm yeah, right.
Yeah.
Val (32:02):
Mm isn't.
Yeah.
That's I don't like that.
No,
Kat (32:06):
that okay So I just wanna add to that too.
Like one of the ways to combatperfectional is to increase the
level of play.
So you know, that I'm an artist.
And so, I mean, it took me yearsto really cultivate an art
practice because ofperfectionism mm-hmm right.
I'm self taught.
Right.
But I would get all these artsupplies because they brought me
joy and pleasure, and I wouldfucking not use them.
(32:27):
Because whatever I was gonnacreate had to be perfect.
Right.
Yeah.
And so I was minimizing mywillingness to engage in
something that was gonna bringme pleasure and potentially help
me get into that lovely flowstate.
Right.
Because of perfectionism.
Right.
And so I started to get more andmore information about how
important play is in our lifeand like moving away from ideas
of like failure or success.
(32:48):
Right.
All that stuff.
And like, you just get to like,make a mess,
Val (32:52):
Mm
Kat (32:52):
know mm-hmm like just get in
Val (32:53):
fits so nicely with, I heard another quote recently,
play lets us know that we're
Kat (32:57):
Yeah Oh, isn't that
Val (32:59):
play lets us
Kat (32:59):
know that you only have access to play when you're
nervous system is regulatedenough to enjoy yourself.
That's interesting.
Well, okay.
Here's a random way that Iintroduce a little more
playfulness in my life.
This is gonna sound so funny,but my kids and I have this
roommate, who's just this lovelyhuman.
We love her so much.
And she happens to be the onethat buys bulk toilet paper for
(33:20):
the household.
And so it's so funny, but likewhen she moved in, she also put
this like this shelf in thebathroom.
And so it has all the toiletpaper.
And so I started ma I didn'tlike looking at the packaging of
it for some reason.
And so I would take all thetoilet paper rolls out and I
would stack them in like randomways.
And then like I thought, oh myGod, this is hilarious.
(33:40):
To have like my roommate walk inand be like, what the fuck?
is happening here And then mykids sort of got in on it.
And like my kids like helpedbasically create an art
structure out
Val (33:50):
making sculptures out of your toilet.
Kat (33:52):
Yeah.
It looked kind of like an owland so it was tall, but then it
kept getting shorter and shorterand shorter.
Cuz you would take the toilethair rolls from the bottom.
And then I was like, this isfun.
I can't wait for the next bulktoilet paper cuz we're gonna
like create some of the it'sjust silly.
Yeah.
But just playfulness becausethere's a lightness.
Right.
And again, I think that's a niceand synthesis to the seriousness
(34:12):
of anxiety.
Right.
We can't take ourselves tooseriously.
Right.
The idea that, oh my God, Imight be a failure.
That's taking yourself a littlebit too seriously.
You know what I mean?
If you're like, oh yep.
We tried that didn't go the wayI thought it was.
I learned a lot.
That was fun.
right
Val (34:28):
learning from failure, yeah.
I also tell people if there's aperfectionist voice in their
head, maybe asking again, like,whose voice does that sound
like?
And that might help kind ofunravel a doing this?
yeah,
Kat (34:40):
yeah, absolutely.
And then I just wanna say too,like maybe we touched on this
already a little bit, but youknow in some ways the anxiety is
serving you, right?
Val (34:49):
Anxiety isn't necessarily bad just in and of itself to
experience anxiety.
We don't need to pathologizethat there's not something wrong
with that.
We don't need to give someone adiagnosis cuz oh, you're
experiencing anxiety.
It's a part of everyday life.
Sure.
Right.
There actually are very fewanxiety diagnoses.
When I got to grad school, I waslike, wait, that's it like
(35:09):
right.
We're all gonna have some kindof worry And yeah, I do talk
about that worry does actuallyget us to move.
Right.
It, it sometimes can get us intoaction.
Hey, I haven't gone to thedoctor in a long time.
Okay.
Maybe that's just worry.
Yeah.
Saying, Hey, let's, justremember that thing.
Kat (35:26):
Yeah Remember that?
Yeah
Val (35:27):
We're just trying to tame it.
The other day I was like, youknow what?
Kat (35:30):
Befriend it,
Val (35:31):
befriend it.
Yeah.
Worry is like gum.
Kat (35:35):
Oh my God.
Val (35:36):
I was like, I'm a genius again.
Here.
I am saying, I'm a genius.
Kat (35:40):
you are a genius.
How is worry?
Like
Val (35:42):
gum, Well, because like the first few minutes of gum is
amazing.
You just had like a garlicylunch.
You want a fresh breath and thefirst five minutes, it's very
helpful.
Right.
And then the gum loses itsflavor.
And now you're just givingyourself a draw ache, cuz you're
chewing on this thing that hasno flavor.
(36:03):
Ah, now it's now it's hurtingyou now.
It's useless.
Because I do have a lot ofclients as well that like
they're project managers,they're like the organized one
and the group, And so it's liketaming that talent, or however
you wanna call it, it's like,okay, when you start to worry
about something.
Is it telling you any newinformation?
Is there anything you canaction.
(36:23):
Right.
Is there a plan you can get inplace?
Is this like, oh, I forgot thisthing, right?
No.
Okay, then we got to move onfrom it and
Kat (36:31):
Yeah Spit the gum out
Val (36:32):
now.
spit the gum out.
Spit the hair like with a littlekid, hold out your hand, spit
the gum out.
Come on, come on.
And so right.
We go to all of our practices,the soothing, all of those
things of when that comes.
So
Kat (36:44):
so good You are a genius.
Anxiety is like gum.
Val (36:49):
my gum.
So the other one you mention,you, you also just mentioned it
being mindfulness.
And when people come to me, howam I gonna be less anxious?
Well, first of all, you probablyneed to slow down.
We are not going to become lessanxious if we don't, we haven't
sort of found a rhythm of life.
What's a rhythm of life.
That's sustainable for you.
All right.
How much, how much sleep do youneed?
(37:10):
Is there a margin?
Are you booking your calendar?
Are you being too optimisticabout your time?
Are you not giving yourselfbreaks?
Right?
Are you it's funny cuz even fasttalkers.
I'm like, oh you're probablyanxious margin.
right.
Rent a little high.
Kat (37:25):
I feel Yeah Yeah
Val (37:26):
But if you're not slowing down to be with your thoughts,
the non-judgment, how can youhave a practice of being
non-judgmental with yourthoughts?
Yeah.
You have to slow down and noticethem.
Yeah.
Huh?
I notice that I'm getting reallyuncomfortable when this happens.
You gotta slow down so thatmindfulness.
And there's another there'sanother really cheesy
Kat (37:46):
give me the cheesy.
I love it so
Val (37:48):
much about like how, and I, I tell clients like, okay, this
is cheesy, but just listen.
Depression usually comes whenwe're looking too much to the
past, this is anoversimplification and anxiety
usually comes when we're toomuch in the future.
Right.
Right.
And so we need to stay and mostclients are like, oh yeah,
that's so true.
Like I know it is, isn't it.
So I find with anxiety, we areliving too much in the future.
(38:10):
Right.
And this is, the problem withthat.
Yeah.
Anxiety usually breeds in placeswhere we have taken
responsibility yet we have nocontrol.
Kat (38:20):
Ooh.
Val (38:20):
Let me Say it again.
Anxiety breeds in places.
Cause I made this up myself.
I want everyone to hear thisanxiety breeds in places where
we have taken responsibilitywhen we have no control over
Kat (38:35):
it.
Wow.
Val (38:36):
Trying to control your
Kat (38:37):
Yeah Your
Val (38:38):
spouse, your partner, you're taking responsibility.
That's my responsibility.
I'm gonna be judged by that.
But you have no control andthat's one place that anxiety
breeds.
So where are you trying to takecontrol?
Kat (38:51):
Oof.
I love that release.
Oh my gosh.
The ramifications for that, likejust parenting alone.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
So
Val (38:58):
Yes.
Kat (38:59):
Yes.
And okay.
Again, like the feeling ofanxiety isn't inherently bad,
but how we get mindful and howwe address it.
Like, again, I'm always gonnabring us back to like, get in
your fucking body, get in there,right?
Yeah.
Because when we live, you livetoo much just in your brain.
Listen, people are thinkingminds are just a small sliver of
who we are.
That is not you in yourentirety.
(39:21):
That's just this little bit.
And that's the part that is themost activated and susceptible
to all of this culturalmessaging, all the stuff that
gets
Val (39:28):
into your mind.
Mm-hmm
Kat (39:30):
And so when you get into just physical body, you just are
like, okay, I'm gonna the floor.
Feel real anxious.
I'm gonna breathe into my body.
I'm gonna feel air.
I'm gonna push air into fullestpart of my belly.
I'm gonna roll my shoulders,whatever you need to do, your
thighs, whatever feels good toyou,
Val (39:47):
getting
Kat (39:47):
in your body.
Val (39:49):
well, and mindfulness you having some kind of mindfulness
exercise.
Like I tell people, just pickone thing.
Yeah.
Washing your hair, making asandwich, doing the dishes.
This is all you are going tothink about.
So if this is like something youwanna get into is a good way to
start.
Right.
Just sit there with yoursandwich, your salad, whatever
you're eating.
And don't look at the phone,right.
(40:10):
Again, through your senses.
Yeah.
Trying to do it in doing thedishes.
Just, just focus on what you'redoing and just let your mind get
a break.
I like to call the mindfulnessspeed bumps.
So, so sometimes if you'retrying, if your brain is just
going into the future too much,let's say I had this one time
where I had to have a meetingwith some people that were
(40:32):
really mad.
At me.
And like my bosses were behindme, but I knew it was just gonna
be so unpleasant, especially asa people pleaser, like, and
being highly sensitive, like getme away from everybody's like
upset energy.
I didn't wanna go.
I was freaking out.
And so I was like, look okay,first, don't think about that
meeting.
All I have to do is go and takea shower.
Kat (40:53):
Ah,
Val (40:54):
Oh And even saying it it's like the relief.
I don't have to think about yes.
Getting all the way to themeeting.
Right, right.
Breaking things down intosmaller pieces.
It's one of the greatest tools.
Right.
So, okay.
So I could do that.
I could get up and go wash myhair and take a shower.
Yeah.
Okay.
When that's done, all you haveto do is dry your hair.
Now for me, that takes a while.
(41:14):
so all I have to do is draw myhair.
Stay in the moment and that kindof like speed bump and again,
distraction, soothing.
Yeah.
Involve other people, right.
I'm not gonna go any furtherthan this.
Now I'm gonna go get dressed.
And so I also teach that topeople as another way to kind of
help them bring their mind likeback into, Into that
Kat (41:33):
mindset And it's like a kind way, again, we're not
asking you to like, hideyourself for the anxiety
feelings.
Right.
We're just, we're gonna gently
Val (41:41):
Nope.
There it is.
And, and I've actually askedclients too, like, can we make
room for the anxiety?
Like, can we just make space forit and the distress tolerance
and riding the way emotionalwave surfing.
Yep.
It's gonna be here, you knowpersonify it.
What does it look like?
What kind of cartoon or color,or, and it's just like, yep.
(42:01):
You're here with me.
I know I have a big presentationtomorrow, so you're gonna be
here with me.
Yep.
Maybe I'm gonna feel you in myheart racing or I'm gonna be
like anxious or irritable orit's gonna be hard to sleep,
It's okay.
Like you're gonna be here withme.
Totally.
And it might just be there forthe rest of the journey.
Yeah.
And we're just gonna havecapacity with it, make it
comfortable.
All right.
I know you're here with me.
(42:21):
Like
Kat (42:21):
it's okay I mean, what if you could fucking play with it?
Like what if you like befriendand be like, oh, anxiety.
Oh, I see what you're doing.
You take a nap, you go take anap, go eat that sandwich.
I gotta do this over here.
You go.
Eat that sandwich.
You're funny
Val (42:36):
I actually talk about but I like this too.
I actually talk about like,being really fierce with anxiety
because it it's relentless.
Here's the other thing aboutanxiety.
Yeah.
For most things that it tellsyou to worry about.
Yeah.
You can't a hundred percent.
Prove the opposite.
Kat (42:50):
Oh, okay.
Val (42:52):
How can you tell someone there's a hundred percent chance
that nothing's, bad's gonnahappen to their house today?
True.
so why it's so insidioussometimes that when, when it
really bothers us is that youcan't prove the opposite to be a
hundred percent true.
Right.
And so it all kind of stickaround.
It might just be there 1%, 2%sure.
But then also it also like tellsus a lot of things.
You gotta worry about that.
(43:13):
What about this?
What about that?
Oh, you can't really trust thatperson and just kind of make it
like really talk back to it,
Kat (43:18):
back to
Val (43:19):
anxiety.
Yeah So I like that you're doingit in a playful way.
Like really?
Do we really think that, youknow, there's gonna be a tornado
here tomorrow?
No anxiety, come on.
I like the thought of doing itin a playful
Kat (43:28):
way.
Yeah Yeah.
That's really the more play wecan infuse into our life is
always gonna be helpful
Val (43:34):
before we end.
I have to talk aboutcatastrophizing because I feel
like a lot of people deal withit.
And I personally deal
Kat (43:41):
with it Yeah
Val (43:42):
of just that my brain immediately goes
Kat (43:46):
mm.
Val (43:47):
to what Google
Kat (43:48):
wrong.
Sure.
the
Val (43:49):
case, wait, Val that's that's not guaranteed that
Kat (43:52):
that's
Val (43:53):
what's gonna
Kat (43:53):
happen.
Val (43:54):
The scenarios that were immediately popping up in my
head were the worst case, but Iwas believing like that they
were like really, really gonnahappen.
And I had to really just walkmyself back and be like, wait,
that's just the worst case.
But my brain automatically showsme if it's like an algorithm,
oh, I never thought of this.
This is an algorithm like ontick TikTok or Instagram, it's
(44:17):
showing me the most intensething that could happen.
Whoa.
Maybe we can end on this.
I have a really coolvisualization for that, but I
wanna say this is one way whereit didn't serve me.
And I had a client tell me aboutthis article called the.
Upside of anxiety in the NewYork times, really talking about
the case for like, Hey, if youhave anxiety, you're fucking
lucky because you have access tolike, you're thinking you're
(44:40):
preparing.
Right.
And my client was like, youalready told me all these
things.
I'm like, oh, that's awesome.
So, so there is all this goodthing to it, but we have to know
where it's not serving us.
And my husband is more of the,like, let's just go for it.
He's not thinking about all thedetails.
He's just like, I have thisgreat idea.
Let's go for it.
Let's be optimistic.
And I'd be like, what aboutthis?
What about that?
(45:01):
What about this?
And it would really upset himand and one day I realized, oh,
maybe my way.
Isn't always the best way.
But I was realizing that at.
Actually was not helpful that I,every idea that he had or
whatever, I was immediatelyseeing the worst case that could
happen.
And it was not serving him.
It was discouraging him right.
(45:22):
In ways that were not helpful.
And I was
Kat (45:25):
yeah.
Val (45:26):
Okay.
But it feels so real.
But I was reading about Researchwas showing that visualization
was helping us move on quicker.
Yeah.
Where, in cognitive ways we'regetting stuck.
Kat (45:39):
Yeah
Val (45:39):
I didn't realize that when we catastrophize your brain is
already using its
Kat (45:46):
Exactly Yes
Val (45:47):
show you the worst case.
I did not realize imaginationwas, was a part of this.
Kat (45:54):
Right.
Mm.
Val (45:56):
So why not imagine
Kat (45:58):
Yeah.
Val (45:59):
the best case scenario?
Right.
So I have clients think aboutthe worst case, right.
Then I have them think about thebest case of the thing that
they're wearing.
Like what's the best.
Perfect.
If you could write the scriptand then they imagine that and
go to that, and then I have themdo.
An okay.
Scenario Right?
What's another alternative,cause we don't wanna be rigid
(46:19):
and maybe the best case won'thappen.
Right, right.
But what's an okay.
Scenario.
Why you're gonna survive if thishappens you'll feel good.
Yeah.
And so that I've found has alsobeen really helpful to balance
out the catastrophizing.
Kat (46:34):
Oh, so helpful
Val (46:37):
ground.
We sure did.
Aww
Kat (46:42):
Yay.
Val (46:42):
Yay.
I think we just need to endourselves
Kat (46:45):
here.
Val (46:47):
end our time together.
We've used it all up.
Yeah.
Aw, thanks cat.
Kat (46:52):
I love you, Val.
Val (46:53):
I love you until next
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
Yay.
Hello?
Val
Val (00:37):
you're here.
Kat (00:38):
Mm Yes I brought a small human with me,
Val (00:43):
did You're small.
Human is just
Kat (00:46):
yeah.
Chill.
Yeah.
Happily, because you know, yougive a kid media.
here you go.
Headphones.
Here you go
Val (00:52):
Treat treats.
Ooh.
Well, speaking of my
Kat (00:57):
you're full size human
Val (00:58):
back.
Yeah.
Full size human he's back
Kat (01:01):
it's not like a snack size RKA is kind of a
Val (01:07):
Oh my gosh.
Kat (01:09):
Right.
So we had an episode where hewas away for too long.
Yeah.
Right.
Yep.
And how's reentry been, cuz he'sback now,
Val (01:17):
You know, it's, it's been good.
I, I was joking with you that Iwas gonna end the episode, like
with tune in next time folks, tosee
Kat (01:26):
I think you do say something like that.
Did I,
Val (01:28):
I
Kat (01:29):
Or maybe it was in the drug episode where you're like, maybe
we're gonna do drugs.
We'll let you know
Val (01:33):
That's right.
Yep.
That's right.
No drugs
Kat (01:35):
yet.
For someone who might not knowwe're referencing the episode
called unsolvable problems andthe unsolvable problem is simply
refi travels for work a lotlonger than feels comfortable
for you,
Val (01:46):
Right.
Yeah.
And it's kind of intermixed withlike his family's there.
Sure.
Right.
And it's been going on a longtime.
We've done a lot of creativethings or tried to figure it
out.
Love is a decision and it is,it, it is a decision to stay in
a partnership.
Right.
But love is also a feeling itcould be intense or and, and the
other night we were coming backfrom somewhere, I'm like, babe,
(02:07):
we really do have something gooddon't we like, we really do have
a good life together.
Don't we?
And he goes, yeah.
And he had just said that to mea couple days ago.
Right.
And he's like, yeah.
And he looks at me.
But I missed my family.
I was like, fuck you.
And I was like, dude, did youreally just, he tried to change
the subject.
I'm like, dude.
Kat (02:26):
mm-hmm
Val (02:26):
he's like, but I really wanna make sure you understand
how hard it is to, and I'm like,we've had conversations.
I get
Kat (02:32):
it.
Yeah.
Val (02:32):
I, do really get it.
And also you don't wanna live inBrazil,
Kat (02:35):
Right
Val (02:36):
so you've already made it tough to say
Kat (02:38):
right.
And so really it's like him,holding the tension and not
asking you to hold the tensionquite as much too.
Right.
So what does that make anysense?
Like, these are the choices thathe's made, but then because he
made that choice, then it hasthis like deep impact on you.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And how much of that is yourresponsibility to hold versus be
like, that was your choice,dude.
Val (02:57):
But then when you're, partnered up with someone it's
in some ways becomes yourproblem, and sometimes we work
on that problem together andsometimes you've got to manage
that, those feelings on your ownas well.
I get it.
And also here we are.
So then, I think it was more ofmaybe an ADHD thing of just
like, you know, Ruining themoment.
(03:19):
Sorry.
Kat (03:23):
talking about us.
You can't bring your fuckingfamily up.
That's hilarious.
Val (03:26):
Can you just let me have this moment, like,
Kat (03:29):
and like stay present in this
Val (03:30):
I'm trying to express, something to you.
Right.
And I mean, I've probably donethat to him a million times too.
Right.
So, I think it's only fair, butthen later he's like, no, babe,
We really do have a good lifetogether.
So, so there we go.
That's the update from
Kat (03:48):
the unsolvable problems.
Val (03:49):
the unsolvable problems.
Kat (03:50):
We're just assuming listeners, you're listening to
every fucking podcast we put outwe would love that if that were
true.
Val (03:59):
And then remember it
Kat (04:00):
Oh exactly right.
Yeah.
Val (04:02):
this is our lives.
Kat (04:03):
Like we,
Val (04:04):
we barely remember it.
Kat (04:06):
So, that you know,
Val (04:08):
so if we are repeating or referencing back, you know, for,
for all of you who are likereally falling along, we're your
favorite soap opera pleaseforgive us for those,
duplications,
Kat (04:17):
Yeah Oh
Val (04:19):
how are you doing KA?
Kat (04:21):
Oh my gosh.
I'm doing okay I'm on anupswing, which I'm pretty
grateful for.
Yeah.
A couple episodes ago we talkedabout drugs and so that was kind
of exciting, but like I've beenmicrodosing and it seems to be
helpful, like I'm microdosingCIL, which is, you know,
mushroom powder and it isworking the way like an
antidepressant would work inthat it sort of just gives, give
(04:44):
me a sense of general wellbeingand then just like a bit of
uptick in my energy level, whichoh my goodness.
Such a fucking
Val (04:52):
yes yay.
Kat (04:53):
And then, you know so my health stuff is coming along.
I think that I've developed anintolerance to gluten, so I've
been sort of staying away fromgluten and then I learned about
this amazing treat from you.
I learned it from you, Val.
Val (05:05):
learned it by watching you.
Kat (05:08):
yeah.
So your husband's Brazilian andthen at one of your parties, you
serve these little likeBrazilian cheese breads that are
made from tapioca flour andcheese, and they're like stupid,
delicious.
Chewy and crispy and savory,they're like, just so good.
So, you know, like gluten is ina lot of wonderful treats and I,
I don't think that food ismoral, so I just enjoy whatever
I enjoy.
(05:28):
But of course I don't wanna feelso sick.
Like I'm dying.
Yeah.
So I'm like, oh, these littlecheese bread things are like,
just the best thing.
So I brought some to you todayand we had some while we were
setting up and stuff.
Yeah.
So that's so fun.
Oh, and I'm still meeting withlike a specialist to, determine
if there's any like additionaldiagnosis or if it's just a
sensitivity or what it might be.
Yeah, it was kind of a roughroad for a little while and I'm,
(05:49):
I'm on the upswing mm-hmmsometimes you're not totally
aware of how, like far gone youare until you start to feel a
little better Again you're likehundred percent.
Oh my God.
How did I even survive all that?
Yes.
Oh, So I'm getting a littleperspective
Val (06:02):
Oh, today.
We, we talked about depressionright.
We're going in for anxiety now.
yeah,
Kat (06:11):
let's get
Val (06:11):
Let's get into it.
Ah well I figured we first justtalk about our own experiences
with anxiety.
Yeah.
You wanna go first?
Kat (06:20):
you were telling me that, like, you didn't notice anxiety
as part of your life when you'reyounger and that's really true
for me too.
Like, I didn't have language forit.
I didn't know.
It was a thing.
I may have been experiencing it,but I mean, it was sort of lost
in, I spent most of my childhoodpretty numb, because of
childhood trauma and stuff, justlike a coping mechanism just
turned everything off.
Yeah.
But then once I was like awayfrom my family origin, I was,
you know, we were in Biblecollege together.
(06:42):
Everything felt fun.
Right.
I mean, even though like, it'sso funny, cuz I think of it now
it's kind of like oppressiveworldview.
Right.
But I was like, but Biblecollege was kind of fun, you
know?
Cause you're around all thesepeople that are your age and
just like, people are fun
Val (06:56):
You know, why too, because you know, there's a verse in the
Bible that talks about you're analien among people.
Right.
And I really felt that I reallyfelt different, right.
Because of the things my parentswanted us to not do.
So you felt very othered, Andthen, unless you went to a
larger church yeah.
You didn't have a lot of friendsthat understood everything.
So, so I think it was just a bigplayground.
(07:17):
And since we were all like, yep,these are the rules, like yep.
We're following them for theLord.
Kat (07:25):
Yeah.
Val (07:25):
then it was sort of like, yeah.
Okay.
We have these boundaries, buteveryone's follow'em and
everyone's happy.
And you have all these friends.
It was a lovely time in somesome,
Kat (07:33):
ways I do have fond memories too.
Val (07:34):
I was gonna say that I didn't realize I had anxiety
until I went to grad school andstarted to study it.
And right before that I hadtaken a trip.
I had a friend who was workingin Shanghai, Beijing, and she's
like, come on over.
So I spent time with her and Iactually think it was a mixture
of really bad jet lag.
Oh.
And anxiety.
And I was going through a, arough time.
(07:56):
We had just left the church andnone of the nights could I
sleep?
I wish I had some drugs or evenjust some melatonin at that
point.
And I was like heartpalpitations.
And I was like, trying to timemy heart.
Was I having a heart attack?
So I think it was having somepanic and some anxiety that
once, like you see the list ofphysical symptoms of anxiety,
I'm like, oh my gosh, I was justanxious.
And I needed to sleep probably
Kat (08:17):
Oh yeah.
Val (08:18):
it was, it was really terrible.
And then I look back and Ithink, well, was I anxious as a
kid?
I had stomach aches.
You know, you went to the nursea lot for stomach aches.
Like maybe that was littleanxiety.
And then I had, even though Idon't remember dreams now, I had
a lot of reoccurring dreamswhere like things happen to my
parents.
And then of course, I didn'twanna tell them But like I had
dreams about them dying,
Kat (08:39):
Yeah
Val (08:40):
but I don't remember worrying as a kid
Kat (08:43):
Or catastrophizing isn't that what you told me Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (08:46):
I don't really remember that.
But then after realizing I'mlike, oh yeah, I think I have
way more anxiety now.
And you and I were just talkingabout well, why, why would that
be?
Kat (08:55):
Yeah.
Is it because we're like moreaware of our own mortality or
like.
Or we just, we're moreself-aware maybe too,
Val (09:02):
Like, are the stakes higher?
are the stakes higher?
We're adults now?
Like what's
Kat (09:06):
happening Oh yeah You have a lot more actual
responsibilities Yeah.
Yeah Being a kid.
Val (09:10):
Yeah.
Or we were talking about chronicillness, right?
If you Google it, oh, chronicillness can cause depression and
anxiety.
Is it chicken or egg?
Does that just come along as abonus or are we anxious or
depressed about the pain?
Of course.
Right.
Yeah.
and you were talking about like,yeah, we just have more to be
anxious
Kat (09:28):
about pain is so debilitating in all the possible
ways.
You know, if it's chronic andongoing, it's hard to stay
upbeat you know?
Yeah.
And then I was noticing like, Myfirst awareness that I was like,
truly anxious it was mixed inwith the grief of my, dad dying.
So I was, 29 and I just wasfinally aware of depression,
anxiety as things that we'retalking about regularly.
(09:50):
And then you know, my mother, Ihad seen my mother live through
lots of like panic attacks andthings like that.
And so I, I experienced onewhile I was like out in public
with my then boyfriend nowex-husband and I just couldn't
bear to be out in public aroundhuman beings.
And it was just such a, like a,this overwhelming sensation of,
(10:11):
of kind of like panic, right?
Yeah.
And and I did the need to fleeand I felt trapped it was really
terribly uncomfortable.
And then since then, you know,as my chronic illness
progressed, like I, I live withpain.
And so like, my mobility is prelimited, so I can't walk or
stand for too long without,without it being like dramatic
pain.
I have more like testing to dowith the doctor, but like,
(10:33):
because of COVID they moved outof the seating out of this one
particular area or the lab whereyou would, you had to wait in
line.
And so it's just interesting.
Like I have to think about waymore stuff than I used to have
to think about, like where can Ipark?
Right.
Cause it's a big parkingstructure and then to get from
the parking garage and to theelevator, to the lab.
And then like before I can talkto a person, you gotta wait in
(10:54):
line before you can talk to aperson and say, I need a seat
and that's too much.
And it gives me anxiety.
So I have to go like superfucking early first thing in the
morning.
There's no line.
Mm.
And so like, you can create somework rounds, but God damnit, I
can't do this thing for my own.
Selfcare without.
Fully knowing I will experiencephysical pain.
Right.
Because they don't, they're notaccommodating what my needs are.
So like my ongoing anxiety isoften that it's like, I will be
(11:18):
in pain if I don't know whereall the seats are gonna be.
Cuz I'll have to sit down.
Val (11:23):
I, I used to be very anxious on Saturday nights
because, you know, Sunday was myWorkday at church and I was
leading worship in, in heelswith chronic pain.
Right.
Standing for like
Kat (11:33):
what the fuck you stayed in heels that whole time.
Val (11:37):
Yeah.
Kat (11:38):
Foul.
Val (11:38):
Well, it wasn't as painful as it is now.
it was, it was still uh
Kat (11:44):
all my heels.
I don't even have them anymore
Val (11:45):
We used to do, a service in the morning and a service at
night and it's that, pain thatyou feel like you shouldn't be
functioning, but you try.
And when we would do anything onSaturday nights, I would be
really upset and anxious aboutit.
I had told RAI and I'm like,well, I'm just worried that if I
do too much tonight, and at themoment he had a good, reframe
for me that I hadn't thoughtabout.
That was helpful.
(12:06):
And yeah, I think as you getolder, the stakes get higher.
I mean, there's a lot of talkabout just the state of our
world climate change, making
Kat (12:13):
kids Oh yeah Just
Val (12:15):
that we're, exposed to so much news media.
the internet and, you know,technology has like opened up
the world so much.
I mean, was just so affirming toread somewhere on social media
that someone was like pointingout.
We were not meant to hold thismuch tragedy or news around the
world.
It's just too much.
So, so maybe that's why we'reall a little more anxious too.
Kat (12:38):
Yeah.
I mean, that makes a lot ofsense.
So what do we do now?
Val?
I'm like suddenly I don't feelas good in my body as I did 10
minutes ago.
how about we like break forcommercial and we'll come back.
Val (12:50):
Listen to our commercials.
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Val (13:48):
Okay.
We're back.
Did you, did you miss this?
Were you anxiously
Kat (13:51):
awaiting?
Yeah.
Val (13:52):
Our return.
Kat (13:53):
Alright, so here we go.
Val (13:55):
So I should just also say, I work a lot with anxiety more
than I honestly, more thandepression in
Kat (14:00):
my practice.
Val (14:00):
So, so I'm talking about anxiety day in and
Kat (14:04):
yeah out, Sure
Val (14:06):
And applying most of it to my own life
Kat (14:08):
lifetime
Val (14:08):
is really, really helpful.
Good job.
But I wanna talk about a conceptcalled anticipatory anxiety,
right?
You maybe have heard it before,right?
We've talked about radicalacceptance on this podcast that
just there's gonna be sufferingin life, but we there's ways
that we can reduce suffering.
Right.
The part of the suffering thatwe're we're in control of, and
there are things let's justvalidate that there are things
(14:29):
in this world that are verytroubling and a lot of our
concerns are very valid.
Right.
And so just recognizing.
The anticipatory anxiety, andit's almost like you can
anticipate the anxiety you'regoing to
Kat (14:43):
Right.
Yeah.
totally
Val (14:44):
So, so sort of noticing it, finding ways to soothe yourself
distract.
Right.
So that you're not addinganxiety on top of anxiety.
Which really is what a panicattack is.
Yeah.
It's when you start to worryabout anxious symptoms and then
that kind of sends you into astate that feels really, really
terrible.
Kat (15:02):
Sure.
Yeah.
Val (15:04):
But I thought first we'd zoom out.
Mm-hmm and I was like, okay,what's Katherine gonna talk
about anxiety.
And I don't know why I wasthinking about this, but I'm
like, you know, the wayKatherine deals with anxiety is
she's zoomed out and has beenlike,
Kat (15:17):
Non-attachment to outcome.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
So it's part of my spiritualpractice, right?
Is like some of these kind ofBuddhist concepts mm-hmm right.
So like non-judgment is a goodone.
Right.
And then, so then you apply thatto yourself.
Right?
So I notice that mitigates myown anxiety when I'm not worried
about my performance in a, B orC, cuz I am gonna accept and
(15:38):
love myself regardless.
Right.
So I don't judge myself harshly,but then the other one is like
non-attachment to outcome, whichI'm not perfect at at all, but
like
Val (15:47):
but
Kat (15:47):
it does mitigate anxiety too, when you're like, I'm gonna
be present with whatever, right.
This is gonna go, however, it'sgonna go.
I might, you know, I might beable to try my best or
something, but like, I'm notgoing to try to like grasp
tightly and control the outcome.
I'm not interested in being apuppet master for my own life or
for the humans that are close tome.
That doesn't feel good at all.
(16:08):
That makes me feel anxious.
Val (16:09):
Right?
Mm.
Kat (16:10):
Cause we actually can't control shit.
Val (16:11):
Ooh.
Well, that's a big one.
Yeah.
That is a big one is control.
Right.
Kat (16:16):
Or the illusion of control
Val (16:18):
there you The illusion of control so I think there's lots
of tools that we can implementin the moment.
But right now we're talkingabout sort of these outlooks and
views and philosophies, right.
That I think shifting them.
Right.
And just looking at that can bereally helpful.
So looking at control, and Ithink a lot of anxiety is to try
(16:40):
to keep in control and like, Iwould love to validate if you're
out there.
Like we can talk about the rootsof anxiety.
Sure.
It could be genetic that couldbe really run in your family or
your household was run by a lotof anxious people.
right.
Kat (16:55):
Or it might have been chaotic.
And so that created anxiety inyou.
Val (16:58):
or traumatic Right So there might be some reasons why you
started to go, okay.
I need to be the grown up hereor, Hey, I can't just kind of
take it easy
Kat (17:08):
or I can't trust other people, so I gotta do it all
myself.
Right.
That's a thing too, for
Val (17:12):
And again, I feel like we partner up with people it's the
yin and the a right.
But I married someone that isvery impulsive and More fly by
the seat of their pants Andespecially when I was younger,
it was a lot more rigidity,like.
Kat (17:27):
oh yeah.
Val (17:28):
well, that's not how things are done.
why can't we do this?
I don't know.
No one does it
Kat (17:33):
way.
Val (17:34):
Right.
That's just how my brain
Kat (17:36):
was.
Mm-hmm
Val (17:37):
I've opened up.
Right.
So so because I was able to havea little bit of openness.
Yeah.
I think that my way of seeingthings has really been shifted
by him.
Right.
And just being able to be well,this.
Weird, but okay.
Kat (17:49):
Yeah.
Val (17:50):
or it's different or unexpected.
Right.
But I was noticing my controland so my husband you know, is
kind of a, a serialentrepreneur.
And I I had a friend who goes,so have you finally just
accepted that about him oh God,for the life of me, I was like,
please just have a W2 form.
Kat (18:07):
mm.
Val (18:08):
please just have a job that like, right.
Because security was soimportant.
Yeah.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Right.
We're not moralizing or judgingthat, but then you were talking
to me about like sort of theillusion of control.
Yeah.
Holding things more loosely.
Right.
Not becoming as attached.
Right.
Asking the deeper questions oflike, why, why does that feel so
(18:28):
important?
And a lot of that
Kat (18:31):
mm-hmm
Val (18:32):
right.
Has to do with the shoulds.
Kat (18:34):
right?
Yeah.
Val (18:35):
That we've been told we should have Right.
Whether that comes from religionculture, our cultures of origin,
capitalism, wide supremacy, likeall of that Yeah.
All the systems that tell us howlife really should go.
And it would be
Kat (18:50):
like external information internalized?
Yeah, go
Val (18:53):
Yeah.
No, that's good.
But, but I think that where alot of suffering comes in is
like, it is unbearable.
Like you could not bear this oneresult.
It has
Kat (19:02):
to be
Val (19:03):
one, this one feels unbearable.
You, you are just rejecting itfully,
Kat (19:07):
Oh oh yeah, yeah.
yeah
Val (19:08):
I felt that way a lot about divorce for a long time.
Like I just, I just couldn'texist.
Yeah.
If, if I had to get a divorce,it was unbearable.
I couldn't think
Kat (19:16):
that makes me think of, you know, the whole storyline of
Fiddler on the roof.
Right.
Like, cuz he has a worldview.
Right.
And his first daughter likesteps outside the rules.
She picks her own husband.
Right.
But he's a Jewish boy.
Right.
That's okay.
And then the next daughter, shelike what's the deal with this
guy?
But the point of it, the thirddaughter is trying to marry
outside the faith and, and thisis too far.
(19:37):
He's been pushed too far and hegoes, if I bend that far.
I'll break.
And I remember that being sopoignant in my own evolution
where like, I had some thingswhere I was like you know, these
are the rules, this is the boxwe're inside of.
And so you, you play good.
Right.
And things must to work out foryou.
Yeah.
But then some things wereshifting in my, in my world and
I was like, holy fuck.
(19:59):
I broke.
And then I realized, I looked atthat story so differently.
I was like, you know what, if wewill be brave enough to let
ourselves break because you, youbreak the fucking construct
Val (20:09):
out of the box
Kat (20:10):
and then suddenly you get to emerge the truest you, the
you, that is not just all theinformation you've
Val (20:18):
mm-hmm
Kat (20:18):
right?
All of that social coding hasbeen internalized and every
single one of us, we are all aproduct of our society.
We cannot help that.
That's how human beings grow anddevelop.
But when you allow thedissonance to get accelerated
enough, the actual breakinghappens, you find what's
underneath it.
And then you get to know thatperson and find that person live
(20:39):
in compassion and love to thatperson, man.
That's cool.
But it's fucking hard.
There's a lot of sufferingaround that.
Val (20:46):
Like you hope to break because then you're free.
Yeah.
Right.
You're out of that box.
I'm seeing like the Pillsburycinnamon roll
Kat (20:53):
or oh yeah.
Okay.
Val (20:55):
popping.
Ooh There's no you can't, youcan't fit those biscuits back in
that
Kat (20:58):
No you cannot
Val (21:00):
popped it's out, biscuits are out.
Kat (21:06):
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Val (21:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're talking about these veryrigid structures that are kept
to honestly keep people
Kat (21:12):
right.
To oppress people until like youknow benefit a few
Val (21:15):
to keep social order,
Kat (21:16):
Yeah Control people.
Oh gross.
I don't wanna be controlled by Idon't even wanna control myself.
Val (21:26):
oh my
Kat (21:29):
I mean, it like, I'm not particularly disciplined about
shit.
I'm like, I'll do it.
If it's fun, shut up.
Val (21:36):
that's of conflict goes from I'm like cat, come on, get
in control at all.
I don't even wanna controlmyself and I'm trying not to
control you, but see here's theword, the problem
Kat (21:47):
is
Val (21:49):
I'm not control.
I'm on
Kat (21:51):
Kenny
Val (21:52):
You're like,
Kat (21:52):
like no, that's super funny.
Does that give you anxiety
Val (21:58):
really funny.
No, it feels really good
Kat (22:00):
for
Val (22:00):
to like, say it and actually explain it.
but these systems you're talkingabout.
So I talk to clients about, lookthese systems when you have to
divest from them, right?
Like.
That's the only way to like, ifyou either have to play by the
rules, right.
Or then if you're like, wait aminute, this, this isn't serving
me.
I don't believe this anymore.
But then you have to divest fromit and it means that you're not
(22:22):
gonna get the perks or thebenefits of it.
Right.
So I call it the gold stars.
Like what kind of gold stars areyou getting from this system?
Right.
Kat (22:29):
So like, even we just think about like capitalism, right?
If you play all the rules,right.
You gotta, you gotta finishschool.
And by your senior year, yougotta have a great grade point
average.
You gotta have all these thingsto get into a good school.
Right?
Not like us so you wanna go to agood school so you can win
capitalism.
Right.
And then you gotta like alreadyknow as a teenager, what you
wanna do for the rest of yourfucking life.
(22:51):
Yeah.
Right.
And then you gotta spend andget, however many degrees is
gonna support that, you know,and then you gotta climb the
ladder.
It's all climb, push, push,grind, all that shit.
Right.
And so, you know, it does affordyou some privileges, if you can
work your way up, all that,Right.
Yeah.
And so, but also.
Are you getting to live yourauthentic life?
(23:11):
You know what I mean?
Like who, you know, again,capitalism gives you this gross
lie about like, find what youwanna do and turn into career,
like what you love and turn intoa career.
Like sometimes that works withlike in the artist community,
like that poisons people a lot,you know?
Val (23:26):
Yeah.
Like, oh yeah.
Find something you love andyou'll never work a day in your
life.
Well, I mean, and I think halfmy practice is with young people
who are maybe in their midthirties that are like, I'm
really struggling with my joband like kind of working through
some of the lies of capitalismor just like that your job is
supposed to be all this.
And it's like, yeah, all ofthat.
Right?
All,
Kat (23:45):
all of that And I'm not saying you can't work.
I can't, I'm not saying youcan't do work that you love
doing.
I'm not, I'm not evensuggesting.
I'm just saying like theinternalized ideas about it are
what we'd like to helpchallenge, you know, because
like who you are is inherentlyvaluable.
Doesn't have anything to do withlike how much education you have
or you know, how much money youmake.
Like, you know, and then like toknow that person to be in touch
(24:06):
with that person to not loseyourself in pursuit of following
the rules in order to win atlife, you know?
Val (24:12):
cause, cause who's saying what, what is, what is it to
win?
Kat (24:16):
I know, right?
It's just this cultural thingit's like out in the Z guys.
And like, you really can, peoplespend their whole fucking lives
chasing these things and tryingto attain something.
And then many people are like,God, I, I got to the top now,
what the fuck am I gonna do?
I, I
Val (24:30):
and this isn't making me happy.
Kat (24:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (24:34):
I hear people say all the time.
Why are celebrities or richpeople unhappy?
I mean, obviously there's, youknow, there's a, there's a
number.
They found the happiness number.
Obviously there's like a povertyline number, but, but money
doesn't necessarily make youhappy.
right.
But we've been told that that'sthe cap.
That's the capitalism
Kat (24:52):
game right Yeah.
Yeah When I think about whatstill makes me anxious, it's
it's sometimes I'm like, ohfuck, am I gonna have enough
money to survive?
And, and so that's just a realthing.
Right.
And so, and then like how toreconcile that with this other,
like zoomed out of like,ultimately everything's gonna be
okay.
I don't know how right.
Yeah.
And so I don't, it's not likeI'm saying, like I have all the
(25:14):
answers.
Exactly.
It's just like recognizing thatwe get We can live a life
differently than the one thatthe culture told us to strive
for.
Right.
And I really, I see that withlike the younger people are a
lot less tied up in all So I, I,I feel hopeful about that and I
(25:34):
I'm.
Yeah.
Val (25:36):
Well,, but I wanna loop it all the way back.
Cuz I think we started talkingabout capitalism cuz I had said
to you, a couple years ago aboutjust feeling worried about my
husband's lack of a W2 right.
And so when I looked at like, sowhat if he has a DB two?
Like, is it more stable?
Sure.
But also he could get fired.
It's the illusion.
It actually, it just feels moresafe or stable to have a job
(26:01):
that someone says, they're gonnagive you a paycheck every week
instead of like, oh, how muchdid you sell?
And what's our profit and right.
So I was like, oh, that that'sis exactly what cat was saying.
Like it's an illusion ofcontrol.
Right.
I saw a really big change in mylife honestly, after really
internalizing the idea about howcontrol is an illusion.
Kat (26:21):
Yeah.
Val (26:22):
And then, Just understanding about the lies of
diet culture and, and abouthealthism and that, like, we
really have so much control overour health.
We only have an amount ofcontrol over our health and so
much is out of our control Ithink coupled with like what
you're saying.
you're gonna be okay.
Yeah.
will it end up the way you want?
I don't know.
Will there be some pain?
(26:42):
Probably.
Will there be some happiness?
Probably.
But, but you're going to beokay.
Yeah.
And finding that piece
Kat (26:49):
Maybe we have like an idea of these things need to be in
place for me to be okay.
And it might be important tochallenge that too, because some
of those things might not be inplace, but if you just sit alone
with yourself, In some roomsomewhere and you're like, oh
right now I'm alive and I'mbreathing and, oh, I'm, I'm
actually okay.
Like in this exact moment here,I.
Val (27:10):
I am
Kat (27:11):
I'm okay.
And I have unknowns.
Right.
And then again, that's where theanxiety comes from.
I have unknowns.
Right.
But is life right now.
This present moment is the onlything we have.
It's the only thing that's real.
And actually I, I am.
Okay.
And then for me, the greatestcomfort is like some we die.
(27:33):
I'm totally convinced that like,on the other side of this life
is something pleasant.
Right.
I don't know exactly what it is,but I'm like, yeah, someday
it'll be over.
It's gonna be okay.
Val (27:43):
Well, I mean, how much anxiety can you relieve from
your life?
Yeah.
If you did a pie chart of howmany of all the things you're
anxious about or worried aboutif death is, is, is a big piece
of the pie, how much Wow.
Kat (27:55):
yeah.
I know lucky me it's cuz of thedrugs,
Val (27:58):
Well and going back to the control, I think for me, what
was the unbearable thing?
The unthinkable thing, yeah.
Was that we would fail and wewould.
Have to sort of leave the thingsthat we had mm-hmm and, and we
would be seen as failures and Ithink that once I was like,
could accept that and not holdon as tightly.
Yeah.
Like just really seeing my fistgoing from this really tight
(28:22):
fist to an open hand, holdingthings loosely.
Yeah.
And like, well, do I want thatto happen?
No, but now it's not the end ofthe world anymore.
If something were to happen or
Kat (28:32):
failure is a bit arbitrary too,
Val (28:34):
Yeah
Kat (28:35):
it's like cultural standard and like who who's out there
judging people, you know what Imean?
Like what
Val (28:40):
well, there's a lot of judgment that goes on, but then
also
Kat (28:43):
really matter, Yeah Yeah I mean in whose eyes, like at the
end of the day, like, this isthe thing, when I think about
anxiety and how to cope with it,it really is like creating this
inside space where you're kindto yourself.
Mm-hmm right.
Where you live and you cultivateyour own practice of
self-compassion where you'rejust like, yeah, I'm always
gonna be on my own side.
It's interesting.
(29:03):
I met someone the other day andthey were talking about how they
just recently moved to the bayarea and how it's quite
difficult to start all And I waslike, yeah.
And I was realizing I've donethat several times over in my
life.
I have started completely overin a new city and, you know, a
new job.
You know, even like once I hadall this like beautiful security
that I was, you know, constantlooking for, I had this like
(29:25):
marriage and two kids.
And my ex-husband had like deeproots
Val (29:28):
in,
Kat (29:29):
you know, this area of the world.
There was just all these thingsthat I thought that I wanted,
but I, I had to say goodbye tothat.
I had to think goodbye to allthat security because I like my,
my truest essential self waslike, I'm not in resonance right
now.
I was like, whoa, Catherine.
I didn't think that through Iwas like, I just was like
(29:50):
following the next thing that Iwas like, oh, I have to be all
the way me here.
And, and for some reason, thisrelationship isn't giving me the
space to And so inside of who Iam as a person, I just am.
Okay.
And again, all of us, when wefeel anxiety, if we can come
(30:10):
back to like this exact presentlike, are you worried about a
future thing?
Are you experiencing somethingright now?
And like, do the thing where youlike, touch your body and just
like, come right back to itreally helps if you've
cultivated a safe space inside,Through mindfulness or
meditation or whatever yourpractices are.
Yeah.
I'm gonna be okay and I'm gonnabreathe through this and yes,
it's uncomfortable.
(30:31):
Oh, what's the thing I love thatterm.
You gave us a few episodes agoabout discomfort.
Val (30:36):
distress
Kat (30:37):
tolerance, distress.
yeah,
Val (30:39):
yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (30:41):
Cause when you have a mindfulness practice or some
kind of self-compassionpractice, your ability to
tolerate distress.
Yeah.
You're just more flexible withyou're like, yes, this is
unpleasant.
Like even when I was so, sosick, I was like, obviously I
don't like this.
It's not fun.
It is getting me down.
But like I'm still, I'm stillactually.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm okay.
Val (31:02):
Self-compassion as a way to reduce your anxiety.
Yeah.
Yes.
When you're kind, when you'regentle and kind and
understanding and graceful toyourself and your you're, you're
continually reminding yourself,you're gonna be okay.
Anxiety tells you, like watchout.
You're not gonna be okay.
Right, right, right.
So I love that usingself-compassion right.
(31:24):
To reduce anxiety.
We had one more zoomed out one.
Kat (31:28):
Oh, What's it
Val (31:28):
perfectionism Another way to reduce anxiety, fucking
Kat (31:33):
Yeah Get rid of that
Val (31:34):
that shit.
Kat (31:35):
it's just, that's just white supremacy.
That's so gross.
Don't you think?
So?
Val (31:41):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, because you were asking mebefore, but how do you get, how
do you get rid of it,
Kat (31:46):
Yeah What do you do?
Yeah,
Val (31:47):
Because it is hard,
Kat (31:48):
Again, internalized concepts,
Val (31:51):
Yeah.
Well, I love the quote that saysEngaging in perfectionism
ensures that you'll be in aperpetual state of self doubt.
Kat (31:59):
Mm yeah, right.
Yeah.
Val (32:02):
Mm isn't.
Yeah.
That's I don't like that.
No,
Kat (32:06):
that okay So I just wanna add to that too.
Like one of the ways to combatperfectional is to increase the
level of play.
So you know, that I'm an artist.
And so, I mean, it took me yearsto really cultivate an art
practice because ofperfectionism mm-hmm right.
I'm self taught.
Right.
But I would get all these artsupplies because they brought me
joy and pleasure, and I wouldfucking not use them.
(32:27):
Because whatever I was gonnacreate had to be perfect.
Right.
Yeah.
And so I was minimizing mywillingness to engage in
something that was gonna bringme pleasure and potentially help
me get into that lovely flowstate.
Right.
Because of perfectionism.
Right.
And so I started to get more andmore information about how
important play is in our lifeand like moving away from ideas
of like failure or success.
(32:48):
Right.
All that stuff.
And like, you just get to like,make a mess,
Val (32:52):
Mm
Kat (32:52):
know mm-hmm like just get in
Val (32:53):
fits so nicely with, I heard another quote recently,
play lets us know that we're
Kat (32:57):
Yeah Oh, isn't that
Val (32:59):
play lets us
Kat (32:59):
know that you only have access to play when you're
nervous system is regulatedenough to enjoy yourself.
That's interesting.
Well, okay.
Here's a random way that Iintroduce a little more
playfulness in my life.
This is gonna sound so funny,but my kids and I have this
roommate, who's just this lovelyhuman.
We love her so much.
And she happens to be the onethat buys bulk toilet paper for
(33:20):
the household.
And so it's so funny, but likewhen she moved in, she also put
this like this shelf in thebathroom.
And so it has all the toiletpaper.
And so I started ma I didn'tlike looking at the packaging of
it for some reason.
And so I would take all thetoilet paper rolls out and I
would stack them in like randomways.
And then like I thought, oh myGod, this is hilarious.
(33:40):
To have like my roommate walk inand be like, what the fuck?
is happening here And then mykids sort of got in on it.
And like my kids like helpedbasically create an art
structure out
Val (33:50):
making sculptures out of your toilet.
Kat (33:52):
Yeah.
It looked kind of like an owland so it was tall, but then it
kept getting shorter and shorterand shorter.
Cuz you would take the toilethair rolls from the bottom.
And then I was like, this isfun.
I can't wait for the next bulktoilet paper cuz we're gonna
like create some of the it'sjust silly.
Yeah.
But just playfulness becausethere's a lightness.
Right.
And again, I think that's a niceand synthesis to the seriousness
(34:12):
of anxiety.
Right.
We can't take ourselves tooseriously.
Right.
The idea that, oh my God, Imight be a failure.
That's taking yourself a littlebit too seriously.
You know what I mean?
If you're like, oh yep.
We tried that didn't go the wayI thought it was.
I learned a lot.
That was fun.
right
Val (34:28):
learning from failure, yeah.
I also tell people if there's aperfectionist voice in their
head, maybe asking again, like,whose voice does that sound
like?
And that might help kind ofunravel a doing this?
yeah,
Kat (34:40):
yeah, absolutely.
And then I just wanna say too,like maybe we touched on this
already a little bit, but youknow in some ways the anxiety is
serving you, right?
Val (34:49):
Anxiety isn't necessarily bad just in and of itself to
experience anxiety.
We don't need to pathologizethat there's not something wrong
with that.
We don't need to give someone adiagnosis cuz oh, you're
experiencing anxiety.
It's a part of everyday life.
Sure.
Right.
There actually are very fewanxiety diagnoses.
When I got to grad school, I waslike, wait, that's it like
(35:09):
right.
We're all gonna have some kindof worry And yeah, I do talk
about that worry does actuallyget us to move.
Right.
It, it sometimes can get us intoaction.
Hey, I haven't gone to thedoctor in a long time.
Okay.
Maybe that's just worry.
Yeah.
Saying, Hey, let's, justremember that thing.
Kat (35:26):
Yeah Remember that?
Yeah
Val (35:27):
We're just trying to tame it.
The other day I was like, youknow what?
Kat (35:30):
Befriend it,
Val (35:31):
befriend it.
Yeah.
Worry is like gum.
Kat (35:35):
Oh my God.
Val (35:36):
I was like, I'm a genius again.
Here.
I am saying, I'm a genius.
Kat (35:40):
you are a genius.
How is worry?
Like
Val (35:42):
gum, Well, because like the first few minutes of gum is
amazing.
You just had like a garlicylunch.
You want a fresh breath and thefirst five minutes, it's very
helpful.
Right.
And then the gum loses itsflavor.
And now you're just givingyourself a draw ache, cuz you're
chewing on this thing that hasno flavor.
(36:03):
Ah, now it's now it's hurtingyou now.
It's useless.
Because I do have a lot ofclients as well that like
they're project managers,they're like the organized one
and the group, And so it's liketaming that talent, or however
you wanna call it, it's like,okay, when you start to worry
about something.
Is it telling you any newinformation?
Is there anything you canaction.
(36:23):
Right.
Is there a plan you can get inplace?
Is this like, oh, I forgot thisthing, right?
No.
Okay, then we got to move onfrom it and
Kat (36:31):
Yeah Spit the gum out
Val (36:32):
now.
spit the gum out.
Spit the hair like with a littlekid, hold out your hand, spit
the gum out.
Come on, come on.
And so right.
We go to all of our practices,the soothing, all of those
things of when that comes.
So
Kat (36:44):
so good You are a genius.
Anxiety is like gum.
Val (36:49):
my gum.
So the other one you mention,you, you also just mentioned it
being mindfulness.
And when people come to me, howam I gonna be less anxious?
Well, first of all, you probablyneed to slow down.
We are not going to become lessanxious if we don't, we haven't
sort of found a rhythm of life.
What's a rhythm of life.
That's sustainable for you.
All right.
How much, how much sleep do youneed?
(37:10):
Is there a margin?
Are you booking your calendar?
Are you being too optimisticabout your time?
Are you not giving yourselfbreaks?
Right?
Are you it's funny cuz even fasttalkers.
I'm like, oh you're probablyanxious margin.
right.
Rent a little high.
Kat (37:25):
I feel Yeah Yeah
Val (37:26):
But if you're not slowing down to be with your thoughts,
the non-judgment, how can youhave a practice of being
non-judgmental with yourthoughts?
Yeah.
You have to slow down and noticethem.
Yeah.
Huh?
I notice that I'm getting reallyuncomfortable when this happens.
You gotta slow down so thatmindfulness.
And there's another there'sanother really cheesy
Kat (37:46):
give me the cheesy.
I love it so
Val (37:48):
much about like how, and I, I tell clients like, okay, this
is cheesy, but just listen.
Depression usually comes whenwe're looking too much to the
past, this is anoversimplification and anxiety
usually comes when we're toomuch in the future.
Right.
Right.
And so we need to stay and mostclients are like, oh yeah,
that's so true.
Like I know it is, isn't it.
So I find with anxiety, we areliving too much in the future.
(38:10):
Right.
And this is, the problem withthat.
Yeah.
Anxiety usually breeds in placeswhere we have taken
responsibility yet we have nocontrol.
Kat (38:20):
Ooh.
Val (38:20):
Let me Say it again.
Anxiety breeds in places.
Cause I made this up myself.
I want everyone to hear thisanxiety breeds in places where
we have taken responsibilitywhen we have no control over
Kat (38:35):
it.
Wow.
Val (38:36):
Trying to control your
Kat (38:37):
Yeah Your
Val (38:38):
spouse, your partner, you're taking responsibility.
That's my responsibility.
I'm gonna be judged by that.
But you have no control andthat's one place that anxiety
breeds.
So where are you trying to takecontrol?
Kat (38:51):
Oof.
I love that release.
Oh my gosh.
The ramifications for that, likejust parenting alone.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
So
Val (38:58):
Yes.
Kat (38:59):
Yes.
And okay.
Again, like the feeling ofanxiety isn't inherently bad,
but how we get mindful and howwe address it.
Like, again, I'm always gonnabring us back to like, get in
your fucking body, get in there,right?
Yeah.
Because when we live, you livetoo much just in your brain.
Listen, people are thinkingminds are just a small sliver of
who we are.
That is not you in yourentirety.
(39:21):
That's just this little bit.
And that's the part that is themost activated and susceptible
to all of this culturalmessaging, all the stuff that
gets
Val (39:28):
into your mind.
Mm-hmm
Kat (39:30):
And so when you get into just physical body, you just are
like, okay, I'm gonna the floor.
Feel real anxious.
I'm gonna breathe into my body.
I'm gonna feel air.
I'm gonna push air into fullestpart of my belly.
I'm gonna roll my shoulders,whatever you need to do, your
thighs, whatever feels good toyou,
Val (39:47):
getting
Kat (39:47):
in your body.
Val (39:49):
well, and mindfulness you having some kind of mindfulness
exercise.
Like I tell people, just pickone thing.
Yeah.
Washing your hair, making asandwich, doing the dishes.
This is all you are going tothink about.
So if this is like something youwanna get into is a good way to
start.
Right.
Just sit there with yoursandwich, your salad, whatever
you're eating.
And don't look at the phone,right.
(40:10):
Again, through your senses.
Yeah.
Trying to do it in doing thedishes.
Just, just focus on what you'redoing and just let your mind get
a break.
I like to call the mindfulnessspeed bumps.
So, so sometimes if you'retrying, if your brain is just
going into the future too much,let's say I had this one time
where I had to have a meetingwith some people that were
(40:32):
really mad.
At me.
And like my bosses were behindme, but I knew it was just gonna
be so unpleasant, especially asa people pleaser, like, and
being highly sensitive, like getme away from everybody's like
upset energy.
I didn't wanna go.
I was freaking out.
And so I was like, look okay,first, don't think about that
meeting.
All I have to do is go and takea shower.
Kat (40:53):
Ah,
Val (40:54):
Oh And even saying it it's like the relief.
I don't have to think about yes.
Getting all the way to themeeting.
Right, right.
Breaking things down intosmaller pieces.
It's one of the greatest tools.
Right.
So, okay.
So I could do that.
I could get up and go wash myhair and take a shower.
Yeah.
Okay.
When that's done, all you haveto do is dry your hair.
Now for me, that takes a while.
(41:14):
so all I have to do is draw myhair.
Stay in the moment and that kindof like speed bump and again,
distraction, soothing.
Yeah.
Involve other people, right.
I'm not gonna go any furtherthan this.
Now I'm gonna go get dressed.
And so I also teach that topeople as another way to kind of
help them bring their mind likeback into, Into that
Kat (41:33):
mindset And it's like a kind way, again, we're not
asking you to like, hideyourself for the anxiety
feelings.
Right.
We're just, we're gonna gently
Val (41:41):
Nope.
There it is.
And, and I've actually askedclients too, like, can we make
room for the anxiety?
Like, can we just make space forit and the distress tolerance
and riding the way emotionalwave surfing.
Yep.
It's gonna be here, you knowpersonify it.
What does it look like?
What kind of cartoon or color,or, and it's just like, yep.
(42:01):
You're here with me.
I know I have a big presentationtomorrow, so you're gonna be
here with me.
Yep.
Maybe I'm gonna feel you in myheart racing or I'm gonna be
like anxious or irritable orit's gonna be hard to sleep,
It's okay.
Like you're gonna be here withme.
Totally.
And it might just be there forthe rest of the journey.
Yeah.
And we're just gonna havecapacity with it, make it
comfortable.
All right.
I know you're here with me.
(42:21):
Like
Kat (42:21):
it's okay I mean, what if you could fucking play with it?
Like what if you like befriendand be like, oh, anxiety.
Oh, I see what you're doing.
You take a nap, you go take anap, go eat that sandwich.
I gotta do this over here.
You go.
Eat that sandwich.
You're funny
Val (42:36):
I actually talk about but I like this too.
I actually talk about like,being really fierce with anxiety
because it it's relentless.
Here's the other thing aboutanxiety.
Yeah.
For most things that it tellsyou to worry about.
Yeah.
You can't a hundred percent.
Prove the opposite.
Kat (42:50):
Oh, okay.
Val (42:52):
How can you tell someone there's a hundred percent chance
that nothing's, bad's gonnahappen to their house today?
True.
so why it's so insidioussometimes that when, when it
really bothers us is that youcan't prove the opposite to be a
hundred percent true.
Right.
And so it all kind of stickaround.
It might just be there 1%, 2%sure.
But then also it also like tellsus a lot of things.
You gotta worry about that.
(43:13):
What about this?
What about that?
Oh, you can't really trust thatperson and just kind of make it
like really talk back to it,
Kat (43:18):
back to
Val (43:19):
anxiety.
Yeah So I like that you're doingit in a playful way.
Like really?
Do we really think that, youknow, there's gonna be a tornado
here tomorrow?
No anxiety, come on.
I like the thought of doing itin a playful
Kat (43:28):
way.
Yeah Yeah.
That's really the more play wecan infuse into our life is
always gonna be helpful
Val (43:34):
before we end.
I have to talk aboutcatastrophizing because I feel
like a lot of people deal withit.
And I personally deal
Kat (43:41):
with it Yeah
Val (43:42):
of just that my brain immediately goes
Kat (43:46):
mm.
Val (43:47):
to what Google
Kat (43:48):
wrong.
Sure.
the
Val (43:49):
case, wait, Val that's that's not guaranteed that
Kat (43:52):
that's
Val (43:53):
what's gonna
Kat (43:53):
happen.
Val (43:54):
The scenarios that were immediately popping up in my
head were the worst case, but Iwas believing like that they
were like really, really gonnahappen.
And I had to really just walkmyself back and be like, wait,
that's just the worst case.
But my brain automatically showsme if it's like an algorithm,
oh, I never thought of this.
This is an algorithm like ontick TikTok or Instagram, it's
(44:17):
showing me the most intensething that could happen.
Whoa.
Maybe we can end on this.
I have a really coolvisualization for that, but I
wanna say this is one way whereit didn't serve me.
And I had a client tell me aboutthis article called the.
Upside of anxiety in the NewYork times, really talking about
the case for like, Hey, if youhave anxiety, you're fucking
lucky because you have access tolike, you're thinking you're
(44:40):
preparing.
Right.
And my client was like, youalready told me all these
things.
I'm like, oh, that's awesome.
So, so there is all this goodthing to it, but we have to know
where it's not serving us.
And my husband is more of the,like, let's just go for it.
He's not thinking about all thedetails.
He's just like, I have thisgreat idea.
Let's go for it.
Let's be optimistic.
And I'd be like, what aboutthis?
What about that?
(45:01):
What about this?
And it would really upset himand and one day I realized, oh,
maybe my way.
Isn't always the best way.
But I was realizing that at.
Actually was not helpful that I,every idea that he had or
whatever, I was immediatelyseeing the worst case that could
happen.
And it was not serving him.
It was discouraging him right.
(45:22):
In ways that were not helpful.
And I was
Kat (45:25):
yeah.
Val (45:26):
Okay.
But it feels so real.
But I was reading about Researchwas showing that visualization
was helping us move on quicker.
Yeah.
Where, in cognitive ways we'regetting stuck.
Kat (45:39):
Yeah
Val (45:39):
I didn't realize that when we catastrophize your brain is
already using its
Kat (45:46):
Exactly Yes
Val (45:47):
show you the worst case.
I did not realize imaginationwas, was a part of this.
Kat (45:54):
Right.
Mm.
Val (45:56):
So why not imagine
Kat (45:58):
Yeah.
Val (45:59):
the best case scenario?
Right.
So I have clients think aboutthe worst case, right.
Then I have them think about thebest case of the thing that
they're wearing.
Like what's the best.
Perfect.
If you could write the scriptand then they imagine that and
go to that, and then I have themdo.
An okay.
Scenario Right?
What's another alternative,cause we don't wanna be rigid
(46:19):
and maybe the best case won'thappen.
Right, right.
But what's an okay.
Scenario.
Why you're gonna survive if thishappens you'll feel good.
Yeah.
And so that I've found has alsobeen really helpful to balance
out the catastrophizing.
Kat (46:34):
Oh, so helpful
Val (46:37):
ground.
We sure did.
Aww
Kat (46:42):
Yay.
Val (46:42):
Yay.
I think we just need to endourselves
Kat (46:45):
here.
Val (46:47):
end our time together.
We've used it all up.
Yeah.
Aw, thanks cat.
Kat (46:52):
I love you, Val.
Val (46:53):
I love you until next
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