August 1, 2022 • 41 mins
Kat and Val do drugs now. They are so proud! Laugh and explore with our hosts as they share what they are learning about recreational and therapeutic uses of various substances, what old attitudes about drugs they happily moved away from and the extraordinary pleasure of partaking!
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
Find us on Instagram:
Kat and Val Podcast
Val's offerings:
So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
Instagram So This is Love Club
Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art
Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
How to Change Your Mind (Netflix Docuseries) Micheal Pollan
The Gottman Institute: Dreams Within Conflict
Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
Hi, Val.
Val (00:35):
Oh, is that my dear
Kat (00:36):
friends
Val (00:37):
KA
Kat (00:38):
mm-hmm Hi
Val (00:39):
cat, max.
Mm-hmm How are you?
Oh,
Kat (00:41):
Oh I'm a little bit stoned.
I think
Val (00:46):
Oh, we're starting off with that.
You're like, I don't know if I'mgonna mention it.
Kat (00:50):
I know, I know it.
You create a real safe space forme, so I'll just tell you
Val (00:55):
Aw.
Even though I'm so bratty
Kat (00:57):
too, you know, I like it when you're brat.
I've told you
Val (01:00):
oh, I keep forgetting Cause I don't like brattiness but
yeah, you came to my, you camein and I'm like, cat, are you
okay?
Are, are something is off withyour energy?
You're like, I did jokes.
I'm like, fuck you.
Supposed to be recording today.
I need you.
I need you sharp cat.
I need you on your game.
I know.
And then I said, I, this is adouble bind for me.
Kat (01:23):
because if it turns out great, they're like, oh man, she
can do shit on
Val (01:27):
But then if it doesn't turn out great, I'm still fucked.
Cuz it's like, ah, then we don'thave a good podcast we can
Kat (01:33):
use
Val (01:34):
damnit.
Kat (01:35):
So I'm experimenting with some micro dosing.
Yes.
And this is an episode wherewe're talking about drag.
Oh, my God.
Remember a while ago, we werelike, could you imagine if our
like 20 year old selves couldsee us now?
Wow.
Oh my gosh.
That's right.
I know when we were like littletiny babies in Bible college.
So I started getting curiousabout drugs before.
(01:57):
Before the pandemic it had beenjust legalized in in Oakland.
Yeah.
Where I live.
And I was like, well, and I hadsome friends too, just like on
the periphery of like, yeah, I'dprobably try marijuana.
You know, like if it was legal,I'm curious about it.
And I was like, oh,
Val (02:12):
Oh,
Kat (02:13):
but just real slowly.
I was like getting a littlecurious about it, but we had
been.
Val (02:18):
very thoroughly
Kat (02:19):
indoctrinated.
Right?
I mean, I was so sure this waslike bad, bad, bad.
Val (02:25):
just from the church.
And then we were in like theeighties and
Kat (02:28):
I know the dare.
Val (02:29):
yes, just say no,
Kat (02:31):
Nancy Reagan.
Fuck you Nancy.
Val (02:36):
I'm gonna talk about the, the, the show on Netflix, but
they, they brought me back to mychildhood where they showed the
commercial of the hot fryingband.
This is your brain.
And then, and then they open upan egg and it's like, just
frying.
Kat (02:49):
is your brain on
Val (02:50):
This is your brain on drugs.
Kat (02:52):
Any questions?
Val (02:57):
the one where the dad is so mad at the kid.
Cuz he finds some drugs.
Kat (03:01):
know this from,
Val (03:03):
you dad learned
Kat (03:04):
it from
Val (03:04):
watching.
Kat (03:05):
you.
Val (03:07):
So we would like say that to my dad.
Sometimes if we are doing
Kat (03:11):
something like,
Val (03:12):
are your kids doing that?
I learned it by watching you.
Kat (03:16):
Totally.
That's so funny.
Oh my okay.
So when I was a campus pastoryeah.
I worked college campuses and Ireally loved my job and my
students were so cool andeclectic.
But one time I was like, hang onthe porch at one of the
community houses with this likedarling boy.
And his name is Billy and therewas like a canvasser walking by
with her like clipboard.
(03:36):
And they were trying to, this isin the early two thousands.
They were trying to legalizemarijuana back in Oregon where I
was.
And and then like Billy signedit and I was so like, and then
like the person walked away andI.
Billy don't do drugs.
I was so scared for Billy andthen literally yesterday, this
other former student of mine whowas Billy's roommate back then,
(03:58):
this, this other person who Ijust loved so much.
They reached out to me.
And they're like, how you doing?
And I was like, I do drugs now.
Val (04:06):
Oh my gosh.
That's what's like, Hey, how youdoing?
I'm
Kat (04:14):
Silly, but it just it's that thing of like realizing it,
we were in like oppressivesystems that were limiting my
like exploration and like, youknow, freedom to discover.
Right.
And so now I'm like, yeah,whenever there's something like
that, I'm like I do drugs.
Yeah.
So I have also discovered thatsince I came out as queer, like
queer people do a lot of fuckingweed Not all queer people,
(04:39):
right?
Yeah.
So, but it's just funny, cuzlike, I feel like my my pandemic
experience was sort ofinteresting in that, like I came
out and then we all wentunderground.
Right.
Not literally underground, butwe all had to stay in our
houses.
Yes.
And.
I, I slowly started to like,make some queer community
connections and stuff like that.
And the first queer person Idated was like a regular
(05:00):
marijuana user is someone thatwould like you.
Use it medicinally, but all dayto get through the day.
Mm.
And I was like, wow, that'sfascinating.
But I hadn't already likedeconstructed all of my you
know, negative ideas about allthat.
Right.
Wow.
And so, and I'm really fortunatetoo, because by the time was
able to like go out in the worldand be gay.
(05:20):
I had really liked at all the,like the deconstructing around,
you know, whether or not thatthat was right or wrong.
So like, I didn't have anyinternalized homophobia by the
time I was like homo Yes, homo.
I had really alreadydeconstructed all that.
So I felt really fortunate inthat that little like cocoon
time for me was like a lot of,you know, A lot of stuff got to
(05:44):
move around internally so that,you know, once human beings were
out in the world and we're allgetting vaccinated, I was like,
gimme the drugs and gimme thegay people.
I would like to date queers.
I would like to get high withyou all.
Yeah.
And so, anyway, and then I, Imay, I have a friend now who I
like have like a legit drughookup, like that is like a true
(06:05):
thing.
And so like this person
Val (06:07):
wait, wait, wait, I wanna stop you.
Cause right before we, werecorded this, you're like, oh,
can we get in trouble fortalking like this?
And then I was like yeah.
Who, who are we gonna get introuble with?
You're like, I'm, I don't know.
I
Kat (06:19):
I just
Val (06:20):
I'm I'm high.
So I don't know.
My
Kat (06:23):
I know.
Right, right.
So anyway This person, likereally believes in the Modesto
properties
Val (06:29):
Yeah.
Kat (06:29):
of like psychedelics all different kinds.
And I've been learning moreabout it.
Like I have at least one goodfriend who is, you know, two
people that I know pretty wellwho were doing therapy and using
ketamine.
You know, therapist directedketamine use.
To like, do cool shit.
Right?
Lots of.
healing.
The human beings I was spendingtime with like psychedelics were
just something that was part ofthe conversation a little bit.
(06:52):
And I was like, this is veryinteresting to me.
Plus, you know, even though I'mnot a Christian anymore, not a
Pentecostal or charismatic, Icontinue to have certain kind of
mystical experiences and so mycuriosity about psychedelics or,
or any other kind of drug waslike, whoa, like What kind of
cool stuff.
Can we experience like feelingconnected to like the whole
(07:13):
universe and CAS.
it just thrills me.
So anyway, I was at a queer poolparty, cuz that's my favorite
thing to do.
Val (07:19):
yes,
Kat (07:21):
and I was chatting with this, you know, a kind of
acquaintance level friend who Ijust think is a cool person and
yeah, they were telling me aboutlike their history with drug
use.
They've been like someone whoexperiment.
All the drugs have this wealthof knowledge, right.
And, and lots of experientialknowledge.
And again, I was coming from aplace of curiosity and no
(07:41):
experience, but also nojudgment.
So it was such a funconversation to have both of us
have really different paths.
Right.
And different relationships withit.
And then like meet sort of inthis middle place where I think
like they've probably sloweddown their drug use.
Right.
And whereas I'm like, woo
Val (07:57):
it up.
better living through chemistry.
Kat (08:01):
Yeah.
And so they they brought me somepowdered, some mushrooms, some
magic mushrooms or sys.
Am I saying it right.
I dunno.
And so I just have beenmicrodosing them and yeah.
And then I was noticing that Ihad a few weeks of really hard
chronic pain body days.
That was it was getting me down,honestly.
(08:22):
And it.
It felt so scary that like thesymptoms were getting more
intense and happening morefrequently.
And I was like, Ooh.
And then I was like, oh, it feltlike an unsolvable problem to
me.
Right.
And I did reach out and Iinvited like, you know, the
medical community to try andhelp me.
Like I got some tests run.
Good job.
I know, and then actually mydoctor's referring me to some,
(08:44):
some specialists, so.
Okay.
We'll see.
But also what, what about ifthis other thing works, you
know, and so yeah, I've beentaking like little micro dose.
And I feel good.
Right.
But I, I was like, should I takeit this morning?
as I was getting ready to comeover to you.
And it really is when I saymicrodose, it's really, really
tiny.
It's like a teensy bit of, ofpowder of what would fit on just
(09:06):
like barely the tip of yourfinger.
And and so I thought it would befine cuz it's so little, but I
got here and you're like you,right.
and then we're trying to talkthrough our outlines and stuff
like that.
And I was like, Ah, I think I'mgonna be okay.
Like when we hit record, I'llprobably be fine.
Yeah.
So
Val (09:25):
This where you're asking, like, are we similar or
different?
We had just had a talk aboutmaking outlines and and it
wasn't your fault last time.
But you were not feeling welllast time, but so we're like,
okay, how can we problem solveto like really get through these
episodes?
And then you're like, oh yeah, Ijust decided to come this
Kat (09:46):
know But yeah, I was really sick the last time we did a big
record day and then like thistime I'm like, and I'm down high
Val (09:53):
so, so for different reasons, your brains are
Kat (09:54):
outta
Val (09:55):
but you're doing gray cat and
Kat (09:56):
Oh, thank you.
Val (09:57):
the double bind where it's like, fuck, need her to do good.
But then if she does, it's like,it'll be no living with her.
Oh, we don't.
We'll be fine, Mel.
We'll be fine.
Mm-hmm
Kat (10:07):
fine.
I know.
Like to, well, go ahead.
Val (10:10):
Oh, no.
I was gonna say my, when youwere talking about past
experiences, you know, I mean,are we some of the only people
that like, didn't see any drugsin college?
Like I'm thinking like not onesingle drug, like people were
drinking, they weren't supposedto be drinking.
Like
Kat (10:24):
I didn't see anyone drink.
I saw nothing.
Val (10:28):
Then we were hanging out with some good friends of ours
and this was not from Biblecollege, but we would always say
like, would you try marijuana?
And we went to a church that wasokay to drink and dance and
stuff.
But we're like, yeah.
Okay.
So we had a packed, like we wereall gonna try it together, I
don't know why we're like, yeah,we'll close the curtains and we
we'll try it.
Right.
And so we hadn't talked about itin so long and we're, and I'm
(10:50):
like, guess what?
I take gummies now.
Kat (10:52):
Like it's still
Val (10:53):
so tame, but they're like, oh, let me see which kind you
take.
Okay.
What's in it.
Oh, that's, that's lightweight.
That's all you do.
Blah, blah, blah.
They were like, okay, so we'regonna do a, adult sleepover
where,
Kat (11:03):
oh, that's
Val (11:03):
sleep over so we can do more
Kat (11:05):
Do more drugs definitely mean, yeah.
I started taking gummies duringthe pandemic because okay.
There was a lot of tension inour pandemic home at
Val (11:13):
Oh, sure.
Kat (11:13):
my ex hadn't moved out yet.
Cuz we didn't know we had brokenup, but like the pandemic, no
one knew how long it was allgonna last.
Right.
And so we were just sort ofhunkering down, you know?
Yeah.
but it wasn't fun because itjust was all tensiony like, you
know,
Val (11:26):
it more of like a coping, thing that you used it for?
Kat (11:28):
Was in the first like rung of people that were allowed to
go back to work.
And so he was out during the daysort of.
Oh, and then he would take thekids on weekends to go like
visit his parents and stuff.
So I could have like a littlebit of weekend time and yeah.
As soon as they would leave, Iwould take a gummy cuz there was
a, week of tension and then Icould just be like, Ugh, It
would just calm everything andit felt like nice.
(11:49):
And I would just watch TV thosefirst months that I would like
do it.
It was really sporadic still,but it was like, This is helping
me.
Yeah.
And then once, you know, like hehad moved out eventually and
then, you know, we were sharingtime with the kids.
And so when I was especiallyonce I was out dating, like,
yeah, like it's super fun to meand it'd be like hanging out
with people that I enjoy andthen we're all just getting high
(12:10):
and you're just, I don't know.
It just, everyone's a littlemore like chill and like, we're
just talking about whatever andit just feels really fun.
It feels communal.
Val (12:17):
Yeah.
Mm.
Hey, KA, before we talk more,Ooh.
About drugs
Kat (12:23):
drugs
Val (12:25):
and what we're learning, what we're learning about drugs.
Kat (12:27):
so much.
Cool shit,
Val (12:28):
I know.
Okay.
Let's take a little break.
Okay.
Kat (12:30):
Be right back.
Val (12:31):
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Kat (12:49):
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Val (13:26):
Okay.
So you know, cat, I haven't useddrugs yet for like coping.
Kat (13:34):
Oh, which,
Val (13:34):
which I did have that thought in the last episode I
talked about just being real sadwhile my husband was gone and it
feels so painful.
But I, I did think like, okay,I'm gonna go play some pickle
ball.
Maybe when I come back, I'lllike, have a gummy.
See if that just
Kat (13:48):
feels Yeah.
Val (13:49):
But it was too close to bedtime.
I think I was like, I'm knocked
Kat (13:51):
Oh.
But those were good for sleepingtoo.
Val (13:53):
Well, I don't usually have a problem sleeping, but yeah.
I think for me, it's still likea, oh, we're gonna get together
Kat (13:59):
It's a party
Val (14:00):
It is, it
Kat (14:01):
Oh Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (14:02):
I actually didn't even realize I was being judgemental,
but I, I think I used to say.
I just don't feel like I needit.
Yeah.
Cause cuz I just feel happy and,and, didn't feel like I needed
it.
And then I was like, oh, well,I'm judging.
Like that other people do needit.
Right.
And then realizing that, it'snot even a thing of need per se,
for some people it is.
(14:23):
What I'm hearing from you, atleast.
And from some other friends islike, it's just a preferred
state of being.
Yeah.
If it feels better, let's justbe in this state of.
Kat (14:31):
being yeah.
Well, okay.
And then you zoom way out andyou look at all of the like,
stressors that exist, like.
In our world and on our planet.
Yeah.
Right.
And so for those of us who likeare highly sensitive people, or
again, like if you'reneurodiverse or if you have any
other like things where theresomehow existing.
Yeah.
There's a state of tension init.
Val (14:50):
yep.
Kat (14:50):
And so, and I think maybe that's why in the queer
community, I see, you know, alot of marijuana use.
it's a small subset.
It's not like I know all queers.
There's definitely a lot ofsober queers out there that
I've, you know, interacted with.
So but it just feels nice.
It's like a lubricant, itsoftens the
Val (15:05):
Mm.
Kat (15:05):
you know, and imagine like a bit of dissonance just for
existing.
Right.
Just being out in the world.
And so it just softens that andit's kind of nice.
And then like when I wanna useit recreationally, like for fun
for, at a party or somethinglike that, then it, it feels
very fun to have like this.
Altered state of being withother people that are also, I
don't know, more silly and morelike, yeah.
(15:27):
You know, it just it'sdelightful,
Val (15:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess I wish I did have accessto it during some of those
darker times I did have with thepain of infertility and, that
sort of a thing, like, I think
Kat (15:38):
you ever use like, you know, glass of wine or two
glasses of wine?
Val (15:41):
No,
Kat (15:42):
I see.
Alcohol's never been a thing forme either.
And I don't know if it's justbecause we never build the
tolerance up in college, butlike not even one or two, like I
can have about half of a drink,whatever it is.
Like, even like a Mike's hard.
Val (15:53):
lemonade
Kat (15:54):
That used to be something that I like, but I could get
through about half and I justlike, would stop wanting it for
whatever reason.
Just alcohol's not my thing.
Yeah.
But then when I was like, oh,weed, this is so much more fun
than alcohol ever.
was.
Cause you know, alcohol's adepressant.
And so it would just make memore like tired and lethargic.
Yeah.
Whereas weed feels like thisdifferent kind of lubricant that
just makes me feel like,
Val (16:15):
Well, I, condition the neighbors to, not be offended.
It's funny.
Not be offended or to offer mealcohol toward the end of the
party, cuz it just makes metired.
But like we have Frenchneighbors and the champagne it's
like champagne is just flowinglike water and you know, it's.
People are drinking.
They want everyone to drink.
And so I'm like, look just bythe end of the night, cuz it, it
(16:36):
does feel nice.
And maybe I do get a littlesillier.
I mean, I'm pretty silly.
Just like get me around a bunchof people.
They're like, no Val needs it atthe end of the night.
Cuz it makes her tired and I'mfighting the chronic illness
Kat (16:47):
Mm-hmm
Val (16:47):
the exhaustion so much that it's like, oh I don't, I don't
want anything to make me wannago home early.
Yeah.
Kat (16:52):
Yeah.
Right.
Totally.
I get that.
You wanna be social, cuteextrovert.
I love all that,
Val (16:57):
but you know, I think speaking of alcohol and you
know, zooming out, the narrativein society and what sort of the
powers that be, and society havesaid like how Prevalent alcohol
is, like the morality, thejudgment we have about marijuana
versus alcohol versus,
Kat (17:13):
or other psychedelics.
Yeah.
That were like reallyvillainized.
But like, yeah.
The research, those are notaddictive.
These are non-addictive
Val (17:21):
So, so you wanna tell em, so if you've seen on Netflix
Kat (17:24):
yeah.
How to change your brain?
Yeah.
It's four episodes
Val (17:27):
from a book that the sky wrote, I forget his name.
Kat (17:30):
We'll we'll put the link in the show notes.
Yeah.
But anyway, like the first oneis about L S D.
Oh, my gosh, they were doing allthis cool research, like in the
fifties.
And like people were havingthese amazing breakthroughs,
right?
Yeah.
So they started using it in liketherapy settings when it was
first discovered.
Right.
And like really interesting,cool results.
But then it starts to get a bitmore mainstream and it
(17:51):
eventually bleeds into, youknow, like we think of acid,
which is just LSD, but it bleedsinto what we understand is like,
you know, hippie culture,whatever.
And it was a severe threat tolike, you.
Capitalism really?
Cause there was some chant thatthey say something like tune in.
So it's it's tune in, turn ondropout.
(18:12):
Right.
And that was this thing that waslike, be creating a cultural
phenomenon.
But again, it was not,controlled and I know that it
got a little messy too.
Right.
And so some regulation isprobably a good idea, but they
just shut that shit down, youknow?
And
Val (18:27):
even in the episode about the MDMA, when somebody started
capitalism yeah.
Started to make it available ina mass way.
Then the authorities gotinvolved and we're like, wait a
minute.
And then like, well, we need togive this bad propaganda and,
and actually faked MRI.
Kat (18:43):
research.
Yeah.
Val (18:44):
They, they faked MRIs to say that like it was gonna give
you holes in your brain.
Oh,
Kat (18:48):
And the whole, like the egg thing in your brain on drugs,
same thing.
Right.
And it turns out like the, thebad study was like, they showed
meth brains, methamphetamines.
And as opposed to these otherpsychedelics that are again non
addictive and don't create holesin your brain.
But what they do do Val?
Yes.
Is they like flood your brainwith dopamine in a way that.
(19:09):
Like we talk a lot about likecreative thinking, creative
problem solving in our lives.
It's like a substance that cancreate a metaphysical
experience.
Right.
And it's interesting, thatlittle thing, like, you know,
tune in, turn on and drop out,Like like it helps you
deconstruct from things thataren't actually serving you.
Yeah.
And you, and I like in the topof this episode, we're talking
(19:31):
about all the fuckingconditioning.
Yeah.
That existed in us.
Like we were.
Fucking good.
And now whenever I think aboutthat season in my life, it like
turns me off so much.
I'm like, Ugh, I was so good.
Ugh.
I'm still actually good.
Like, you know, like prettyaltruistic by nature.
And, and yet, like I have thefreedom to align myself with
(19:52):
things that actually resonatewith me.
Right.
As opposed to that, likeindoctrination of like fear of
being
Val (19:58):
Sure, sure.
Yeah.
The inflexibility right ofsomeone's already done all the
thinking for you.
So you don't think, right.
This is the way things shouldgo.
This is good.
This is bad.
This is the way.
And, there's this inflexibility.
Cuz we were talking right in theunsolvable problems episode
about just creativity and howthat could help us when we sort
of feel like we're at aroadblock or something seems
(20:21):
unsolvable, we can't quote fixit or get relief.
Like I could imagine your mindbeing opened and seeing all
these other possibilities.
So
Kat (20:29):
just a tool, right.
It's just a tool.
And then again, they're using itin therapy settings.
So like, people are talkingabout psychedelics as like, you
know, medicinal herbs.
Right.
You know, and like, so I thinkabout marijuana or weed and, you
know, it feels medicinal in thatit absolutely softens all the
edge.
So like people feel less anxietyand you just feel a different
sense of wellbeing, right?
(20:50):
Yeah.
And then so my limitedexperience with mushrooms or
Cicilline is yeah, it is adifferent sort of sensation, but
it's also like it's is anelevation of like overall
wellbeing and it's, it's kind oftricky to articulate, but like I
know that a lot of people areusing.
Instead of pharmaceuticalantidepressants.
(21:10):
Right.
And so I'm just coming off ofthis like really hard window.
I mean, I, it kind of stretchesback a bit, you know, like there
was a breakup and then like,I've had a lot of hard body
things recently.
And so yeah, I, I just, wasn'tkind of at a place emotionally
where I was consistently like,In a, in a positive state of
being yeah.
Or like a nor neutral that Ijust, I was sad a lot,
Val (21:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
Kat (21:33):
so like, it's been neat to sort of invite some creative
problem solving right.
And say, okay, well, I don'tknow, people use this instead of
antidepressants.
And I haven't enjoyed myexperience with antidepressants.
They sometimes worked, but youknow, side effects were a thing.
And, and so I was like, Oh, myGod, I'm gonna do this.
I'm gonna microdose mushroomsand like, see what happens.
(21:55):
This life that we live we get toexperiment and explore what
could work for us, you know,and, and certain psychedelics
are illegal in Oakland now.
And turns out
Val (22:04):
if
Kat (22:04):
you guys watch this doc, please watch this documentary.
I mean, there's so much reallyfascinating.
Also the war on drugs, fuckingpolitical.
Yes.
Val (22:12):
Fuck you.
Kat (22:12):
Thank you.
And, and absolutely aboutoppressing marginalized people
in a way that just, how do youfeel makes my heart so sad?
Yeah, no, I know, but I found itreally encouraging.
Like we get a lot of bad news,like, you know, just living in
the world today, you hear littlebits of news.
It's mostly feels negative.
But as I watched this, I sawlots of evidence to suggest
(22:35):
that.
Healing is happening more placesthan I knew.
And, and people are, are lookingfor restorative justice in
certain circles.
And it made me optimistic like,oh, I think my default is
ultimately everything's gonna beokay.
But again, when you have a lotof pain and when you're sad a
lot, like it, it's hard to holdthat.
(22:56):
And so it feels really good tobe returning to a place where I
just feel like, yeah, everythingis, is gonna be okay somehow.
I don't know
Val (23:04):
Mm.
Kat (23:05):
But I feel hopeful and it's, you
Val (23:07):
maybe it's the, maybe it's the drugs
Kat (23:09):
I know but that's why we should all be taking the drugs.
I mean, only if
Val (23:14):
drugs you are on are, are making you hopeful about the
effect of drugs on other people.
That's just, no, that's amazing.
That's great.
You know, In the series this onetherapist goes, I was never told
in my, master's program thatthere was all this use of drugs
and, stuff.
And I was like, oh, you knowwhat I did, I did get that.
And that was part of my processtoo.
I think just kind ofdeconstructing and the
(23:36):
establishment, people talk aboutbig pharma.
That kind of.
False sense of control orsafety, right?
Oh, these people have our bestinterest in mind.
Yeah.
Do they?
Oh, they'd never lied to usright.
But.
I do remember learning that inmy program about how marijuana,
there weren't really that manybad side effects or anything.
There was a war on marijuanaback in the day and a lot of it
(23:59):
was for money.
Yeah.
Right.
And, for politic
Kat (24:02):
galvanizing a political base too.
Yeah.
Because you can fear monger.
Yeah.
Right.
And then, the pipeline ofgetting, you know, people of
color in the prisons, it's sotransparent.
Yes.
It just it's, it's hard to like,even talk about it without
feeling so despondent.
Oh.
Val (24:17):
And I mean, it it's still happening, right?
Like it's, it's still happening,unfortunately.
Kat (24:21):
Yeah.
I mean, it is, but like it'sshifting.
And so like, you know, you zoomout enough to see the long view,
like again, these documentaries,so it's four episodes.
It did a really great job oflike explaining all the history
of things and where some ofthese different things have come
from it.
And these are all, you know,like naturally found.
Right.
So, you know, we discipline, weall know about that.
And then these mushrooms andthen They talk about PO a little
(24:43):
bit and IASA a little bitMasculine.
I'm my God.
So I've only tried two drugs.
I know like between the two ofus, like, I'm like the more like
drug
Val (24:53):
yeah, yeah, yeah,
Kat (24:54):
Two drugs.
And so like, I wanna try.
all the drugs.
If they become legal or like, Ihave safe ways to access them.
Like, like it just feels so likeenthralling to, to be open to
new experiences.
Mm-hmm you know, and it was neatagain, like, I really hope
you'll watch the documentarybecause they explain how this
particular compound, right.
(25:14):
Cuz they're chemicals they'refound in nature, but.
It like floods your brain withopening the other one, floods
your brain with serotonin, orthey're doing different kinds of
things.
Right.
Right.
And what, whatever it is thatthey're doing in your brain is
like, is, is sort of it'shealing trauma a lot.
It's opening up creativethinking.
It's giving most people who havethese experiences.
They're talking about feelinglike connected to the whole
(25:38):
world.
Right.
And so I just feels good tothink that we.
Have more and more people movingaway from individualism, which
again is like westernizedcolonial sort of I ideas, right.
That perpetuate capitalism.
And so if more and more of usare, are feeling connected to
our surroundings in one another,like it just, you can't help,
(26:00):
but have those kinds ofexperiences and not be more and
more altruistic.
Right.
Val (26:04):
And I
Kat (26:05):
I think that that's beautiful.
I think that's how, one of theways that consciousness like
collective consciousnesscontinues to erase, you know,
that, you know, there's more andmore ability for me to say you
are different than me and you'renot wrong.
And actually, I love you.
I just love you.
Right.
So, yeah.
Be on drugs.
Just love everybody.
Val (26:24):
Coming from my natural sort of place of the healing and the
therapy stuff, I am really alsohopeful and excited about the
use of right.
The continued use or more, ormaybe more the mainstream use.
The approval of different drugs,like ketamine, think about it,
special K like, you know,
Kat (26:39):
oh right.
Val (26:40):
special K to help with your depression.
Right.
They're finding it's very, veryhelpful for depression and
anxiety and for, trauma, I even.
Heard of someone going to thedoctor for I think I'm kind of
depressed and they're like,well, do you want ketamine?
it's getting offered now.
Right.
And then there's also therapy,assisted ketamine where, where
(27:00):
it can be used for trauma.
And so that stuff is veryexciting.
And then, you're like, okay,Val, you need to at least watch
the third episode of the MDMA.
And I, thought it wasfascinating because.
You could access that memorywithout all of the emotion
connected to it.
And I, it's sparking mycuriosity to learn more about
it, right.
(27:20):
Because listen, it's in ourintro.
We're great talkers.
So I'm really great at talktherapy.
Like let's, process you beheard, right.
And seen and witnessed holdspace and all the tools but
there's things that like are inour bodies that are especially
trauma that, that do not respondwell to talk therapy, right.
(27:41):
Or only to a certain point.
So.
I've added EMDR to my arsenal ofthings that I can use.
And the purpose of.
EMDR is to get these unprocessedmemories, unstuck, taking away
the charge of the emotion.
Right.
And you don't really have totalk about it.
Right.
But it still is distressing forsome people as it's kind of
(28:01):
getting unstuck and reprocessed,the emotion can be a little bit
overwhelming.
Mm-hmm but still, it seems likea lot of people find relief from
it, but I'm interested in the,the MDM a maybe taking, the pain
of the emotional way first.
Right.
So you can get to it.
Right.
Which I could imagine for veryheightened, you know this
heightened emotional response,right.
(28:23):
That could.
Just unlocking that unsolvableproblem.
Right?
Well, I can't even start talkingabout yeah.
The trauma to heal
Kat (28:31):
Right.
And, you know, we were talkingjust the other day about
preverbal trauma, you know,mm-hmm and so I haven't had my,
my kids this weekend, so that'swhen I was like, I'm gonna just
try, I do this microdosingthing, but I took a bit of a
bigger dose.
You know, it's still a microdose, but I took just a little
bit more the other morning and Idecided to like meditate and I
put on one of those sound wavethings, you know, that you're
(28:52):
talking about.
Val (28:53):
Oh yeah.
The sound baths, the heart, thechakra sound baths.
So funny.
You reminded me, I put myhammock up.
I need to go have a
Kat (29:00):
a Sunday.
Val (29:01):
Aw.
Kat (29:02):
So anyway, I felt sort of guided that there were some
things that were ready to movearound.
So then what did I do?
I created a safe space formyself to, to settle in to
whatever it was that was readyto like come through.
Right.
Val (29:16):
And if you wanna know more about doing that, please go to
the episode called reframingresistance.
toward the end cat guides, youand how to do this.
okay.
Please continue.
Kat (29:25):
The sound bath was really cool cuz it felt like I was
feeling things like that arelike deeply in my body all the
way through my body.
Sort of like, like bubble up tothe surface and it looked like.
I wanna say dust like particles,there we go.
It looked like particles.
And then like, I would justlike, like swoosh them away and
then like, just settle back intomore of like this cool sort of
(29:49):
relaxed feeling and then moreand more would sort of bubble
up.
So I was laying in bed alone bymyself with the music on a
little bit high.
And then every once in a while Iwould just lift my hands and
just like, sort of almost likedoing like I was w.
Over my
Val (30:02):
body.
Mm-hmm
Kat (30:02):
I wasn't even really touching my skin, but just sort
of like pushing it out, like,okay, we're done with that.
And then you and I happened tocall, we talked about some
podcast stuff, and then all of asudden I was like crying and
telling you about this reallyold shit that I it's funny, cuz
it was happening noncognitively.
I I wasn't like aware of whatexactly was coming up through.
Yeah.
(30:23):
Ready to heal itself.
Right.
Mm-hmm and then all of a suddenyou were there.
my darling friend.
Who's so good at being a talktherapist.
All of it just sort of came outand I was like it was like
really, really young, youngstuff.
And boy, I was so grateful tohave you to talk to just in like
half an hour after and sort ofcomplete that cycle of things
that were like wanting to behealed.
Val (30:44):
Mm
Kat (30:45):
yeah.
Val (30:45):
yeah.
And we talked about the wordpreverbal there, like yeah, just
that sometimes there's thingsthat, affected us that were
before we even had words for it.
Kat (30:54):
know.
And so it felt really true to methat like the medicinal
psychedelic was like helping meaccess things that I cognitively
didn't actually even have accessto, you know, and I have been
someone.
Adamantly trying to be whole andto heal since I was 20 years
old, it became like this hyperfocus of my life of like
recognizing the patterns of myparents and knowing I didn't
(31:17):
wanna repeat them.
Right.
And then Yeah.
And so I'm just, I feel sohopeful.
Val (31:26):
dear listeners.
as you can see, the drugs areworking,
Kat (31:32):
you're
Val (31:34):
This is actually commercial
Kat (31:37):
it, a commercial for that documentary.
Yeah.
Is how to change your brain onNetflix.
You
Val (31:42):
know what so, so, you know, one of our questions is like,
what are you learning?
And I was just looking, youknow, doing some research about
ketamine and the MDMA and.
Why they're so helpful.
Well, I can speak for sure aboutthe ketamine that it, it
strengthens neurotransmitters.
Kat (31:57):
Oh yeah.
Val (31:58):
That might be a damaged, especially in
Kat (32:01):
early
Val (32:02):
trauma in early childhood trauma.
Wow.
You know, we we've talked aboutthe ACEs score before that
doctors started.
Curious about why certain peoplehave so many health issues, like
what what's the root let's get,find the root.
Right.
That the higher your score wason this early childhood trauma
scale, the high they saw thelink.
Kat (32:20):
Yeah.
Val (32:21):
And unfortunately, dear friend, you know, the early
childhood trauma stuff is tough.
Kat (32:26):
know.
I know.
Val (32:27):
Yeah it just really affects so much.
So I know.
Aw,
Kat (32:30):
making me feel a little weepy now.
Like I I am someone thatexperience early childhood
trauma and, you know, I don't, Idon't have any control over
that.
And you know, here I am in mylike mid forties and it feels
really good to.
To see some of that heal itself,right?
Yeah.
And to like have support, right?
Like there are kind good humansin my life.
(32:52):
And then I stumble upon otherthings that are supportive.
Like, oh my God, we were likeindoctrinated that, you know,
drugs were bad.
And then we got to like, leavethat and be like, Nope, I'm
gonna explore the thing I'mcurious about.
And so then the thing that I'mcurious about is bringing this
wholeness, I've been, you know,wanting my whole life and, you
know, and I get to.
(33:14):
Oh, I, I think I'll tell thispart too.
I, I, in a meditation, I wasfeeling real tender and I was
noticing that it felt reallyyoung.
And so the way I practiceself-compassion is I just
imagine a comfy space and Ibring all these like aspects of
myself into this space.
And so I brought.
Baby this baby version ofCatherine.
And it was like a brand newcrawling baby, right?
(33:36):
So like in the six, eight monthin that window where they're
just starting to crawl and I hadimagined sort of like the more
adult versions of me at variousages.
Sort of surrounding the baby inlike a circle on a comfy carpet
and the little tiny babyCatherine is getting picked up
and like nuzzled and snuggledand like looked deeply into
(33:58):
their eyes and and then likegoes on to the next person.
When I can access what thepainfulness of that.
There, there was some likespecific abuse things that were
happening in my young childhood,but like I also, the, the
emotional thing was like, myparents were trying to survive.
And so I didn't ever feel seen,like, and I was a middle child
(34:18):
in a kind of chaotic homeenvironment.
And so like you were talkingabout like that long
Val (34:22):
gaze,
Kat (34:23):
right.
and and how we need that andhow, how desperately children
really need that to like, havesomeone lovingly look into their
eyes with, like, I see you.
I love you.
I'm here for you.
And so.
My God, you
Val (34:39):
Yeah.
I took a just quickly, I took atraining from, from these
amazing people that work a lotwith, childhood trauma.
And they just kept talking.
That's why I shared it with you.
Like they kept talking about theimportance of that gaze and how
like, healing that is right.
To have someone look you in theeye and say you're lovable.
This shouldn't have happened toyou.
(34:59):
You didn't deserve this.
You are worthy your whole.
Kat (35:03):
Yeah.
Val (35:03):
And, and how powerful that was for, for people's healing.
Kat (35:07):
Yeah.
I just feel so much gratitude.
Like, you know, we talk abouthow much we love our podcast so
much.
And I'm so grateful because itmeans I spend so much more time
with you.
you're so great.
and fun to look at.
That's amazing.
Val (35:25):
this is another one of our, our brand points is that we can
be going from like healing yourinner child to
Kat (35:32):
to like gas in a
Val (35:33):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Can I, can I read this?
I don't know if this is a goodplace for us to kind of start
winding down, but you know,we're talking about
intergenerational trauma.
So not just like guys, this iswhat's.
This is what we're stacked upagainst, right?
It's not.
Stuff that you remember that wewere harmed by, but the things
that like happened before wewere verbal before, like, you
know, our, our prefrontal cortexreally knew what to do with it.
(35:56):
Right.
So it's stored inside of ourbodies.
and then we even haveintergenerational trauma, right?
The study of epigenetics, justhow that trauma can be passed
down into our DNA and what thatmeans for oppressed people and
what that means for people wherethere has been trauma in our
bloodlines.
Right.
So the egg that made you.
(36:17):
In your grandmother's body.
Kat (36:19):
Mm.
Val (36:20):
Right?
So then your cells are alsoaffected by even the trauma that
your grandmother went through.
Right.
and so how we really are soconnected, and part of
self-compassion one of the, thepillars of that too, is how, you
know, to access.
Self-compassion like, it's notjust all on us.
Like our independence will bethe end of us.
(36:41):
I think in west.
Their culture.
Right?
It's it's not so helpful, butjust to think about like, it's
not just on all on you, like,you're the, some parts of like
the family you came from, likethe nurture and the nature and
the ancestors and all thesethings.
Right.
A part of a collective and, andwe're all just doing our best.
Right.
And so to try to get somecompassion for yourself in all
(37:01):
of that, you're not just the sumof your actions.
You're the sum of everythingthat your people went through.
right.
So this is from a website abouthealing intergenerational trauma
through ketamine therapy.
Okay.
This is a little, this is alittle
Kat (37:14):
drugs,
Val (37:15):
intergenerational trauma can have a tremendous often
unconscious impact on inindividual's mental or physical
wellbeing.
With the scientific study ofepigenetics.
We see the ways in which traumagets inherited in a family.
Exploring our unconsciousconnection to our lineage.
A person may gain anunderstanding of this
(37:35):
transgenerational transmissionsof trauma based patterns and
identify the behaviors, emotionswith transgenerational
components.
Kat (37:44):
Mm.
Val (37:45):
the ketamine medicine marries well with the healing
intergenerational trauma andgenerational shame.
Mm-hmm Ooh.
Mm.
I
Kat (37:54):
I know
Val (37:55):
it acts as an empathogen.
Kat (37:58):
empathogen
Val (37:58):
Opening the hearts.
Yeah.
And relaxing logic.
Kat (38:02):
Ah,
Val (38:02):
Ah, so that a person can connect sincerely, emotionally
and heartfully to the theancestor or to the trauma of a
family member that may not havebeen incurred in their lifetime.
Wow.
But lingers throughout thelineage.
Oh, I'm.
Goosebumps, just reading this.
A person may useintergenerational trauma
(38:23):
healing, ketamine therapy tobuild compassion, where there
was shame and connect with theancestral resources and
resiliencies.
And that we know that that'ssuch another important component
of healing.
Right.
Is your resources and yourresiliency.
And that's just one of the ways,right.
That kind of mean can help.
Yeah.
Us heal some of those thingsthat we don't really have access
(38:45):
to right at the, at the surface.
Kat (38:47):
And in slightly different ways, all of these things that
we've mentioned in the podcasttoday, like they're all I.
Allowing us to access differentparts of our brain, really, you
know, to turn down like we, weall can picture the brain skin,
right?
Yeah.
Western society told us toreally live in our thinking
brain.
But they're asking us also tolive less in our emotional
states.
Right.
Yeah.
And so when we just turn thevolume down on this one
(39:09):
particular part of your brain,that little piece of your brain
is not all of you.
right, right.
So much more.
And so it's interesting thatthese things exist in nature
like that the world, the earthprovided this for us.
Right.
That's a fun, like, woo, woo.
Way to think of it.
You know, like Gaia motherearth, whatever, like has
already given us these beautifultools The documentary too talks
(39:31):
about like indigenous peoplesand how their relationship with
the mushrooms and the guysdifferent psychedelics and even,
you know, cactus and used inritual, ancient long, long,
before us, you
Val (39:41):
that's one way that, like, I think therapists are trying to
decolonize therapy.
Yeah.
Right.
And not just give all the creditto this Western sort of
Eurocentric way.
But even when I explainbilateral stimulation or the use
of bilateral movements to calmyou, and that's just like, Where
you can tap both sides of yourbody, right.
Or even some of the tapping,the, meridians in your body.
(40:02):
This is all from ancientcultures.
So we need to give
Kat (40:06):
appropriate credit.
Val (40:07):
Yeah,
Kat (40:08):
We're slowly catching up to things that people already now
and then, you know, colonialsand try to stamp it all out and
they're like always better.
And then you're like, oops.
Nope, no, it's not.
It's awful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (40:17):
So a,
Kat (40:19):
Oh, this is a fun episode, Valerie.
I know.
All right.
Healing and drugs and sex androck and roll motherfuckers.
Val (40:27):
You did mention that you were like, I think you and RAI,
you know, in the last episode wetalked about some of our
unsolvable problems you guysshould just take some drugs
together and I think it would begood for your relationship.
So, so tune in, I don't know ifit'll be a live stream, but you
know, if we do decide to do it,we'll report back.
Kat (40:43):
good.
That
Val (40:43):
good.
Okay.
We have talked a lot about whatwe're learning.
What's moving around and what'sbringing us pleasure.
So I think it's time.
Kat (40:50):
Yep.
I love you, Val.
Val (40:52):
I love you too.
Bye.
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
Hi, Val.
Val (00:35):
Oh, is that my dear
Kat (00:36):
friends
Val (00:37):
KA
Kat (00:38):
mm-hmm Hi
Val (00:39):
cat, max.
Mm-hmm How are you?
Oh,
Kat (00:41):
Oh I'm a little bit stoned.
I think
Val (00:46):
Oh, we're starting off with that.
You're like, I don't know if I'mgonna mention it.
Kat (00:50):
I know, I know it.
You create a real safe space forme, so I'll just tell you
Val (00:55):
Aw.
Even though I'm so bratty
Kat (00:57):
too, you know, I like it when you're brat.
I've told you
Val (01:00):
oh, I keep forgetting Cause I don't like brattiness but
yeah, you came to my, you camein and I'm like, cat, are you
okay?
Are, are something is off withyour energy?
You're like, I did jokes.
I'm like, fuck you.
Supposed to be recording today.
I need you.
I need you sharp cat.
I need you on your game.
I know.
And then I said, I, this is adouble bind for me.
Kat (01:23):
because if it turns out great, they're like, oh man, she
can do shit on
Val (01:27):
But then if it doesn't turn out great, I'm still fucked.
Cuz it's like, ah, then we don'thave a good podcast we can
Kat (01:33):
use
Val (01:34):
damnit.
Kat (01:35):
So I'm experimenting with some micro dosing.
Yes.
And this is an episode wherewe're talking about drag.
Oh, my God.
Remember a while ago, we werelike, could you imagine if our
like 20 year old selves couldsee us now?
Wow.
Oh my gosh.
That's right.
I know when we were like littletiny babies in Bible college.
So I started getting curiousabout drugs before.
(01:57):
Before the pandemic it had beenjust legalized in in Oakland.
Yeah.
Where I live.
And I was like, well, and I hadsome friends too, just like on
the periphery of like, yeah, I'dprobably try marijuana.
You know, like if it was legal,I'm curious about it.
And I was like, oh,
Val (02:12):
Oh,
Kat (02:13):
but just real slowly.
I was like getting a littlecurious about it, but we had
been.
Val (02:18):
very thoroughly
Kat (02:19):
indoctrinated.
Right?
I mean, I was so sure this waslike bad, bad, bad.
Val (02:25):
just from the church.
And then we were in like theeighties and
Kat (02:28):
I know the dare.
Val (02:29):
yes, just say no,
Kat (02:31):
Nancy Reagan.
Fuck you Nancy.
Val (02:36):
I'm gonna talk about the, the, the show on Netflix, but
they, they brought me back to mychildhood where they showed the
commercial of the hot fryingband.
This is your brain.
And then, and then they open upan egg and it's like, just
frying.
Kat (02:49):
is your brain on
Val (02:50):
This is your brain on drugs.
Kat (02:52):
Any questions?
Val (02:57):
the one where the dad is so mad at the kid.
Cuz he finds some drugs.
Kat (03:01):
know this from,
Val (03:03):
you dad learned
Kat (03:04):
it from
Val (03:04):
watching.
Kat (03:05):
you.
Val (03:07):
So we would like say that to my dad.
Sometimes if we are doing
Kat (03:11):
something like,
Val (03:12):
are your kids doing that?
I learned it by watching you.
Kat (03:16):
Totally.
That's so funny.
Oh my okay.
So when I was a campus pastoryeah.
I worked college campuses and Ireally loved my job and my
students were so cool andeclectic.
But one time I was like, hang onthe porch at one of the
community houses with this likedarling boy.
And his name is Billy and therewas like a canvasser walking by
with her like clipboard.
(03:36):
And they were trying to, this isin the early two thousands.
They were trying to legalizemarijuana back in Oregon where I
was.
And and then like Billy signedit and I was so like, and then
like the person walked away andI.
Billy don't do drugs.
I was so scared for Billy andthen literally yesterday, this
other former student of mine whowas Billy's roommate back then,
(03:58):
this, this other person who Ijust loved so much.
They reached out to me.
And they're like, how you doing?
And I was like, I do drugs now.
Val (04:06):
Oh my gosh.
That's what's like, Hey, how youdoing?
I'm
Kat (04:14):
Silly, but it just it's that thing of like realizing it,
we were in like oppressivesystems that were limiting my
like exploration and like, youknow, freedom to discover.
Right.
And so now I'm like, yeah,whenever there's something like
that, I'm like I do drugs.
Yeah.
So I have also discovered thatsince I came out as queer, like
queer people do a lot of fuckingweed Not all queer people,
(04:39):
right?
Yeah.
So, but it's just funny, cuzlike, I feel like my my pandemic
experience was sort ofinteresting in that, like I came
out and then we all wentunderground.
Right.
Not literally underground, butwe all had to stay in our
houses.
Yes.
And.
I, I slowly started to like,make some queer community
connections and stuff like that.
And the first queer person Idated was like a regular
(05:00):
marijuana user is someone thatwould like you.
Use it medicinally, but all dayto get through the day.
Mm.
And I was like, wow, that'sfascinating.
But I hadn't already likedeconstructed all of my you
know, negative ideas about allthat.
Right.
Wow.
And so, and I'm really fortunatetoo, because by the time was
able to like go out in the worldand be gay.
(05:20):
I had really liked at all the,like the deconstructing around,
you know, whether or not thatthat was right or wrong.
So like, I didn't have anyinternalized homophobia by the
time I was like homo Yes, homo.
I had really alreadydeconstructed all that.
So I felt really fortunate inthat that little like cocoon
time for me was like a lot of,you know, A lot of stuff got to
(05:44):
move around internally so that,you know, once human beings were
out in the world and we're allgetting vaccinated, I was like,
gimme the drugs and gimme thegay people.
I would like to date queers.
I would like to get high withyou all.
Yeah.
And so, anyway, and then I, Imay, I have a friend now who I
like have like a legit drughookup, like that is like a true
(06:05):
thing.
And so like this person
Val (06:07):
wait, wait, wait, I wanna stop you.
Cause right before we, werecorded this, you're like, oh,
can we get in trouble fortalking like this?
And then I was like yeah.
Who, who are we gonna get introuble with?
You're like, I'm, I don't know.
I
Kat (06:19):
I just
Val (06:20):
I'm I'm high.
So I don't know.
My
Kat (06:23):
I know.
Right, right.
So anyway This person, likereally believes in the Modesto
properties
Val (06:29):
Yeah.
Kat (06:29):
of like psychedelics all different kinds.
And I've been learning moreabout it.
Like I have at least one goodfriend who is, you know, two
people that I know pretty wellwho were doing therapy and using
ketamine.
You know, therapist directedketamine use.
To like, do cool shit.
Right?
Lots of.
healing.
The human beings I was spendingtime with like psychedelics were
just something that was part ofthe conversation a little bit.
(06:52):
And I was like, this is veryinteresting to me.
Plus, you know, even though I'mnot a Christian anymore, not a
Pentecostal or charismatic, Icontinue to have certain kind of
mystical experiences and so mycuriosity about psychedelics or,
or any other kind of drug waslike, whoa, like What kind of
cool stuff.
Can we experience like feelingconnected to like the whole
(07:13):
universe and CAS.
it just thrills me.
So anyway, I was at a queer poolparty, cuz that's my favorite
thing to do.
Val (07:19):
yes,
Kat (07:21):
and I was chatting with this, you know, a kind of
acquaintance level friend who Ijust think is a cool person and
yeah, they were telling me aboutlike their history with drug
use.
They've been like someone whoexperiment.
All the drugs have this wealthof knowledge, right.
And, and lots of experientialknowledge.
And again, I was coming from aplace of curiosity and no
(07:41):
experience, but also nojudgment.
So it was such a funconversation to have both of us
have really different paths.
Right.
And different relationships withit.
And then like meet sort of inthis middle place where I think
like they've probably sloweddown their drug use.
Right.
And whereas I'm like, woo
Val (07:57):
it up.
better living through chemistry.
Kat (08:01):
Yeah.
And so they they brought me somepowdered, some mushrooms, some
magic mushrooms or sys.
Am I saying it right.
I dunno.
And so I just have beenmicrodosing them and yeah.
And then I was noticing that Ihad a few weeks of really hard
chronic pain body days.
That was it was getting me down,honestly.
(08:22):
And it.
It felt so scary that like thesymptoms were getting more
intense and happening morefrequently.
And I was like, Ooh.
And then I was like, oh, it feltlike an unsolvable problem to
me.
Right.
And I did reach out and Iinvited like, you know, the
medical community to try andhelp me.
Like I got some tests run.
Good job.
I know, and then actually mydoctor's referring me to some,
(08:44):
some specialists, so.
Okay.
We'll see.
But also what, what about ifthis other thing works, you
know, and so yeah, I've beentaking like little micro dose.
And I feel good.
Right.
But I, I was like, should I takeit this morning?
as I was getting ready to comeover to you.
And it really is when I saymicrodose, it's really, really
tiny.
It's like a teensy bit of, ofpowder of what would fit on just
(09:06):
like barely the tip of yourfinger.
And and so I thought it would befine cuz it's so little, but I
got here and you're like you,right.
and then we're trying to talkthrough our outlines and stuff
like that.
And I was like, Ah, I think I'mgonna be okay.
Like when we hit record, I'llprobably be fine.
Yeah.
So
Val (09:25):
This where you're asking, like, are we similar or
different?
We had just had a talk aboutmaking outlines and and it
wasn't your fault last time.
But you were not feeling welllast time, but so we're like,
okay, how can we problem solveto like really get through these
episodes?
And then you're like, oh yeah, Ijust decided to come this
Kat (09:46):
know But yeah, I was really sick the last time we did a big
record day and then like thistime I'm like, and I'm down high
Val (09:53):
so, so for different reasons, your brains are
Kat (09:54):
outta
Val (09:55):
but you're doing gray cat and
Kat (09:56):
Oh, thank you.
Val (09:57):
the double bind where it's like, fuck, need her to do good.
But then if she does, it's like,it'll be no living with her.
Oh, we don't.
We'll be fine, Mel.
We'll be fine.
Mm-hmm
Kat (10:07):
fine.
I know.
Like to, well, go ahead.
Val (10:10):
Oh, no.
I was gonna say my, when youwere talking about past
experiences, you know, I mean,are we some of the only people
that like, didn't see any drugsin college?
Like I'm thinking like not onesingle drug, like people were
drinking, they weren't supposedto be drinking.
Like
Kat (10:24):
I didn't see anyone drink.
I saw nothing.
Val (10:28):
Then we were hanging out with some good friends of ours
and this was not from Biblecollege, but we would always say
like, would you try marijuana?
And we went to a church that wasokay to drink and dance and
stuff.
But we're like, yeah.
Okay.
So we had a packed, like we wereall gonna try it together, I
don't know why we're like, yeah,we'll close the curtains and we
we'll try it.
Right.
And so we hadn't talked about itin so long and we're, and I'm
(10:50):
like, guess what?
I take gummies now.
Kat (10:52):
Like it's still
Val (10:53):
so tame, but they're like, oh, let me see which kind you
take.
Okay.
What's in it.
Oh, that's, that's lightweight.
That's all you do.
Blah, blah, blah.
They were like, okay, so we'regonna do a, adult sleepover
where,
Kat (11:03):
oh, that's
Val (11:03):
sleep over so we can do more
Kat (11:05):
Do more drugs definitely mean, yeah.
I started taking gummies duringthe pandemic because okay.
There was a lot of tension inour pandemic home at
Val (11:13):
Oh, sure.
Kat (11:13):
my ex hadn't moved out yet.
Cuz we didn't know we had brokenup, but like the pandemic, no
one knew how long it was allgonna last.
Right.
And so we were just sort ofhunkering down, you know?
Yeah.
but it wasn't fun because itjust was all tensiony like, you
know,
Val (11:26):
it more of like a coping, thing that you used it for?
Kat (11:28):
Was in the first like rung of people that were allowed to
go back to work.
And so he was out during the daysort of.
Oh, and then he would take thekids on weekends to go like
visit his parents and stuff.
So I could have like a littlebit of weekend time and yeah.
As soon as they would leave, Iwould take a gummy cuz there was
a, week of tension and then Icould just be like, Ugh, It
would just calm everything andit felt like nice.
(11:49):
And I would just watch TV thosefirst months that I would like
do it.
It was really sporadic still,but it was like, This is helping
me.
Yeah.
And then once, you know, like hehad moved out eventually and
then, you know, we were sharingtime with the kids.
And so when I was especiallyonce I was out dating, like,
yeah, like it's super fun to meand it'd be like hanging out
with people that I enjoy andthen we're all just getting high
(12:10):
and you're just, I don't know.
It just, everyone's a littlemore like chill and like, we're
just talking about whatever andit just feels really fun.
It feels communal.
Val (12:17):
Yeah.
Mm.
Hey, KA, before we talk more,Ooh.
About drugs
Kat (12:23):
drugs
Val (12:25):
and what we're learning, what we're learning about drugs.
Kat (12:27):
so much.
Cool shit,
Val (12:28):
I know.
Okay.
Let's take a little break.
Okay.
Kat (12:30):
Be right back.
Val (12:31):
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Val (13:26):
Okay.
So you know, cat, I haven't useddrugs yet for like coping.
Kat (13:34):
Oh, which,
Val (13:34):
which I did have that thought in the last episode I
talked about just being real sadwhile my husband was gone and it
feels so painful.
But I, I did think like, okay,I'm gonna go play some pickle
ball.
Maybe when I come back, I'lllike, have a gummy.
See if that just
Kat (13:48):
feels Yeah.
Val (13:49):
But it was too close to bedtime.
I think I was like, I'm knocked
Kat (13:51):
Oh.
But those were good for sleepingtoo.
Val (13:53):
Well, I don't usually have a problem sleeping, but yeah.
I think for me, it's still likea, oh, we're gonna get together
Kat (13:59):
It's a party
Val (14:00):
It is, it
Kat (14:01):
Oh Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (14:02):
I actually didn't even realize I was being judgemental,
but I, I think I used to say.
I just don't feel like I needit.
Yeah.
Cause cuz I just feel happy and,and, didn't feel like I needed
it.
And then I was like, oh, well,I'm judging.
Like that other people do needit.
Right.
And then realizing that, it'snot even a thing of need per se,
for some people it is.
(14:23):
What I'm hearing from you, atleast.
And from some other friends islike, it's just a preferred
state of being.
Yeah.
If it feels better, let's justbe in this state of.
Kat (14:31):
being yeah.
Well, okay.
And then you zoom way out andyou look at all of the like,
stressors that exist, like.
In our world and on our planet.
Yeah.
Right.
And so for those of us who likeare highly sensitive people, or
again, like if you'reneurodiverse or if you have any
other like things where theresomehow existing.
Yeah.
There's a state of tension init.
Val (14:50):
yep.
Kat (14:50):
And so, and I think maybe that's why in the queer
community, I see, you know, alot of marijuana use.
it's a small subset.
It's not like I know all queers.
There's definitely a lot ofsober queers out there that
I've, you know, interacted with.
So but it just feels nice.
It's like a lubricant, itsoftens the
Val (15:05):
Mm.
Kat (15:05):
you know, and imagine like a bit of dissonance just for
existing.
Right.
Just being out in the world.
And so it just softens that andit's kind of nice.
And then like when I wanna useit recreationally, like for fun
for, at a party or somethinglike that, then it, it feels
very fun to have like this.
Altered state of being withother people that are also, I
don't know, more silly and morelike, yeah.
(15:27):
You know, it just it'sdelightful,
Val (15:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess I wish I did have accessto it during some of those
darker times I did have with thepain of infertility and, that
sort of a thing, like, I think
Kat (15:38):
you ever use like, you know, glass of wine or two
glasses of wine?
Val (15:41):
No,
Kat (15:42):
I see.
Alcohol's never been a thing forme either.
And I don't know if it's justbecause we never build the
tolerance up in college, butlike not even one or two, like I
can have about half of a drink,whatever it is.
Like, even like a Mike's hard.
Val (15:53):
lemonade
Kat (15:54):
That used to be something that I like, but I could get
through about half and I justlike, would stop wanting it for
whatever reason.
Just alcohol's not my thing.
Yeah.
But then when I was like, oh,weed, this is so much more fun
than alcohol ever.
was.
Cause you know, alcohol's adepressant.
And so it would just make memore like tired and lethargic.
Yeah.
Whereas weed feels like thisdifferent kind of lubricant that
just makes me feel like,
Val (16:15):
Well, I, condition the neighbors to, not be offended.
It's funny.
Not be offended or to offer mealcohol toward the end of the
party, cuz it just makes metired.
But like we have Frenchneighbors and the champagne it's
like champagne is just flowinglike water and you know, it's.
People are drinking.
They want everyone to drink.
And so I'm like, look just bythe end of the night, cuz it, it
(16:36):
does feel nice.
And maybe I do get a littlesillier.
I mean, I'm pretty silly.
Just like get me around a bunchof people.
They're like, no Val needs it atthe end of the night.
Cuz it makes her tired and I'mfighting the chronic illness
Kat (16:47):
Mm-hmm
Val (16:47):
the exhaustion so much that it's like, oh I don't, I don't
want anything to make me wannago home early.
Yeah.
Kat (16:52):
Yeah.
Right.
Totally.
I get that.
You wanna be social, cuteextrovert.
I love all that,
Val (16:57):
but you know, I think speaking of alcohol and you
know, zooming out, the narrativein society and what sort of the
powers that be, and society havesaid like how Prevalent alcohol
is, like the morality, thejudgment we have about marijuana
versus alcohol versus,
Kat (17:13):
or other psychedelics.
Yeah.
That were like reallyvillainized.
But like, yeah.
The research, those are notaddictive.
These are non-addictive
Val (17:21):
So, so you wanna tell em, so if you've seen on Netflix
Kat (17:24):
yeah.
How to change your brain?
Yeah.
It's four episodes
Val (17:27):
from a book that the sky wrote, I forget his name.
Kat (17:30):
We'll we'll put the link in the show notes.
Yeah.
But anyway, like the first oneis about L S D.
Oh, my gosh, they were doing allthis cool research, like in the
fifties.
And like people were havingthese amazing breakthroughs,
right?
Yeah.
So they started using it in liketherapy settings when it was
first discovered.
Right.
And like really interesting,cool results.
But then it starts to get a bitmore mainstream and it
(17:51):
eventually bleeds into, youknow, like we think of acid,
which is just LSD, but it bleedsinto what we understand is like,
you know, hippie culture,whatever.
And it was a severe threat tolike, you.
Capitalism really?
Cause there was some chant thatthey say something like tune in.
So it's it's tune in, turn ondropout.
(18:12):
Right.
And that was this thing that waslike, be creating a cultural
phenomenon.
But again, it was not,controlled and I know that it
got a little messy too.
Right.
And so some regulation isprobably a good idea, but they
just shut that shit down, youknow?
And
Val (18:27):
even in the episode about the MDMA, when somebody started
capitalism yeah.
Started to make it available ina mass way.
Then the authorities gotinvolved and we're like, wait a
minute.
And then like, well, we need togive this bad propaganda and,
and actually faked MRI.
Kat (18:43):
research.
Yeah.
Val (18:44):
They, they faked MRIs to say that like it was gonna give
you holes in your brain.
Oh,
Kat (18:48):
And the whole, like the egg thing in your brain on drugs,
same thing.
Right.
And it turns out like the, thebad study was like, they showed
meth brains, methamphetamines.
And as opposed to these otherpsychedelics that are again non
addictive and don't create holesin your brain.
But what they do do Val?
Yes.
Is they like flood your brainwith dopamine in a way that.
(19:09):
Like we talk a lot about likecreative thinking, creative
problem solving in our lives.
It's like a substance that cancreate a metaphysical
experience.
Right.
And it's interesting, thatlittle thing, like, you know,
tune in, turn on and drop out,Like like it helps you
deconstruct from things thataren't actually serving you.
Yeah.
And you, and I like in the topof this episode, we're talking
(19:31):
about all the fuckingconditioning.
Yeah.
That existed in us.
Like we were.
Fucking good.
And now whenever I think aboutthat season in my life, it like
turns me off so much.
I'm like, Ugh, I was so good.
Ugh.
I'm still actually good.
Like, you know, like prettyaltruistic by nature.
And, and yet, like I have thefreedom to align myself with
(19:52):
things that actually resonatewith me.
Right.
As opposed to that, likeindoctrination of like fear of
being
Val (19:58):
Sure, sure.
Yeah.
The inflexibility right ofsomeone's already done all the
thinking for you.
So you don't think, right.
This is the way things shouldgo.
This is good.
This is bad.
This is the way.
And, there's this inflexibility.
Cuz we were talking right in theunsolvable problems episode
about just creativity and howthat could help us when we sort
of feel like we're at aroadblock or something seems
(20:21):
unsolvable, we can't quote fixit or get relief.
Like I could imagine your mindbeing opened and seeing all
these other possibilities.
So
Kat (20:29):
just a tool, right.
It's just a tool.
And then again, they're using itin therapy settings.
So like, people are talkingabout psychedelics as like, you
know, medicinal herbs.
Right.
You know, and like, so I thinkabout marijuana or weed and, you
know, it feels medicinal in thatit absolutely softens all the
edge.
So like people feel less anxietyand you just feel a different
sense of wellbeing, right?
(20:50):
Yeah.
And then so my limitedexperience with mushrooms or
Cicilline is yeah, it is adifferent sort of sensation, but
it's also like it's is anelevation of like overall
wellbeing and it's, it's kind oftricky to articulate, but like I
know that a lot of people areusing.
Instead of pharmaceuticalantidepressants.
(21:10):
Right.
And so I'm just coming off ofthis like really hard window.
I mean, I, it kind of stretchesback a bit, you know, like there
was a breakup and then like,I've had a lot of hard body
things recently.
And so yeah, I, I just, wasn'tkind of at a place emotionally
where I was consistently like,In a, in a positive state of
being yeah.
Or like a nor neutral that Ijust, I was sad a lot,
Val (21:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
Kat (21:33):
so like, it's been neat to sort of invite some creative
problem solving right.
And say, okay, well, I don'tknow, people use this instead of
antidepressants.
And I haven't enjoyed myexperience with antidepressants.
They sometimes worked, but youknow, side effects were a thing.
And, and so I was like, Oh, myGod, I'm gonna do this.
I'm gonna microdose mushroomsand like, see what happens.
(21:55):
This life that we live we get toexperiment and explore what
could work for us, you know,and, and certain psychedelics
are illegal in Oakland now.
And turns out
Val (22:04):
if
Kat (22:04):
you guys watch this doc, please watch this documentary.
I mean, there's so much reallyfascinating.
Also the war on drugs, fuckingpolitical.
Yes.
Val (22:12):
Fuck you.
Kat (22:12):
Thank you.
And, and absolutely aboutoppressing marginalized people
in a way that just, how do youfeel makes my heart so sad?
Yeah, no, I know, but I found itreally encouraging.
Like we get a lot of bad news,like, you know, just living in
the world today, you hear littlebits of news.
It's mostly feels negative.
But as I watched this, I sawlots of evidence to suggest
(22:35):
that.
Healing is happening more placesthan I knew.
And, and people are, are lookingfor restorative justice in
certain circles.
And it made me optimistic like,oh, I think my default is
ultimately everything's gonna beokay.
But again, when you have a lotof pain and when you're sad a
lot, like it, it's hard to holdthat.
(22:56):
And so it feels really good tobe returning to a place where I
just feel like, yeah, everythingis, is gonna be okay somehow.
I don't know
Val (23:04):
Mm.
Kat (23:05):
But I feel hopeful and it's, you
Val (23:07):
maybe it's the, maybe it's the drugs
Kat (23:09):
I know but that's why we should all be taking the drugs.
I mean, only if
Val (23:14):
drugs you are on are, are making you hopeful about the
effect of drugs on other people.
That's just, no, that's amazing.
That's great.
You know, In the series this onetherapist goes, I was never told
in my, master's program thatthere was all this use of drugs
and, stuff.
And I was like, oh, you knowwhat I did, I did get that.
And that was part of my processtoo.
I think just kind ofdeconstructing and the
(23:36):
establishment, people talk aboutbig pharma.
That kind of.
False sense of control orsafety, right?
Oh, these people have our bestinterest in mind.
Yeah.
Do they?
Oh, they'd never lied to usright.
But.
I do remember learning that inmy program about how marijuana,
there weren't really that manybad side effects or anything.
There was a war on marijuanaback in the day and a lot of it
(23:59):
was for money.
Yeah.
Right.
And, for politic
Kat (24:02):
galvanizing a political base too.
Yeah.
Because you can fear monger.
Yeah.
Right.
And then, the pipeline ofgetting, you know, people of
color in the prisons, it's sotransparent.
Yes.
It just it's, it's hard to like,even talk about it without
feeling so despondent.
Oh.
Val (24:17):
And I mean, it it's still happening, right?
Like it's, it's still happening,unfortunately.
Kat (24:21):
Yeah.
I mean, it is, but like it'sshifting.
And so like, you know, you zoomout enough to see the long view,
like again, these documentaries,so it's four episodes.
It did a really great job oflike explaining all the history
of things and where some ofthese different things have come
from it.
And these are all, you know,like naturally found.
Right.
So, you know, we discipline, weall know about that.
And then these mushrooms andthen They talk about PO a little
(24:43):
bit and IASA a little bitMasculine.
I'm my God.
So I've only tried two drugs.
I know like between the two ofus, like, I'm like the more like
drug
Val (24:53):
yeah, yeah, yeah,
Kat (24:54):
Two drugs.
And so like, I wanna try.
all the drugs.
If they become legal or like, Ihave safe ways to access them.
Like, like it just feels so likeenthralling to, to be open to
new experiences.
Mm-hmm you know, and it was neatagain, like, I really hope
you'll watch the documentarybecause they explain how this
particular compound, right.
(25:14):
Cuz they're chemicals they'refound in nature, but.
It like floods your brain withopening the other one, floods
your brain with serotonin, orthey're doing different kinds of
things.
Right.
Right.
And what, whatever it is thatthey're doing in your brain is
like, is, is sort of it'shealing trauma a lot.
It's opening up creativethinking.
It's giving most people who havethese experiences.
They're talking about feelinglike connected to the whole
(25:38):
world.
Right.
And so I just feels good tothink that we.
Have more and more people movingaway from individualism, which
again is like westernizedcolonial sort of I ideas, right.
That perpetuate capitalism.
And so if more and more of usare, are feeling connected to
our surroundings in one another,like it just, you can't help,
(26:00):
but have those kinds ofexperiences and not be more and
more altruistic.
Right.
Val (26:04):
And I
Kat (26:05):
I think that that's beautiful.
I think that's how, one of theways that consciousness like
collective consciousnesscontinues to erase, you know,
that, you know, there's more andmore ability for me to say you
are different than me and you'renot wrong.
And actually, I love you.
I just love you.
Right.
So, yeah.
Be on drugs.
Just love everybody.
Val (26:24):
Coming from my natural sort of place of the healing and the
therapy stuff, I am really alsohopeful and excited about the
use of right.
The continued use or more, ormaybe more the mainstream use.
The approval of different drugs,like ketamine, think about it,
special K like, you know,
Kat (26:39):
oh right.
Val (26:40):
special K to help with your depression.
Right.
They're finding it's very, veryhelpful for depression and
anxiety and for, trauma, I even.
Heard of someone going to thedoctor for I think I'm kind of
depressed and they're like,well, do you want ketamine?
it's getting offered now.
Right.
And then there's also therapy,assisted ketamine where, where
(27:00):
it can be used for trauma.
And so that stuff is veryexciting.
And then, you're like, okay,Val, you need to at least watch
the third episode of the MDMA.
And I, thought it wasfascinating because.
You could access that memorywithout all of the emotion
connected to it.
And I, it's sparking mycuriosity to learn more about
it, right.
(27:20):
Because listen, it's in ourintro.
We're great talkers.
So I'm really great at talktherapy.
Like let's, process you beheard, right.
And seen and witnessed holdspace and all the tools but
there's things that like are inour bodies that are especially
trauma that, that do not respondwell to talk therapy, right.
(27:41):
Or only to a certain point.
So.
I've added EMDR to my arsenal ofthings that I can use.
And the purpose of.
EMDR is to get these unprocessedmemories, unstuck, taking away
the charge of the emotion.
Right.
And you don't really have totalk about it.
Right.
But it still is distressing forsome people as it's kind of
(28:01):
getting unstuck and reprocessed,the emotion can be a little bit
overwhelming.
Mm-hmm but still, it seems likea lot of people find relief from
it, but I'm interested in the,the MDM a maybe taking, the pain
of the emotional way first.
Right.
So you can get to it.
Right.
Which I could imagine for veryheightened, you know this
heightened emotional response,right.
(28:23):
That could.
Just unlocking that unsolvableproblem.
Right?
Well, I can't even start talkingabout yeah.
The trauma to heal
Kat (28:31):
Right.
And, you know, we were talkingjust the other day about
preverbal trauma, you know,mm-hmm and so I haven't had my,
my kids this weekend, so that'swhen I was like, I'm gonna just
try, I do this microdosingthing, but I took a bit of a
bigger dose.
You know, it's still a microdose, but I took just a little
bit more the other morning and Idecided to like meditate and I
put on one of those sound wavethings, you know, that you're
(28:52):
talking about.
Val (28:53):
Oh yeah.
The sound baths, the heart, thechakra sound baths.
So funny.
You reminded me, I put myhammock up.
I need to go have a
Kat (29:00):
a Sunday.
Val (29:01):
Aw.
Kat (29:02):
So anyway, I felt sort of guided that there were some
things that were ready to movearound.
So then what did I do?
I created a safe space formyself to, to settle in to
whatever it was that was readyto like come through.
Right.
Val (29:16):
And if you wanna know more about doing that, please go to
the episode called reframingresistance.
toward the end cat guides, youand how to do this.
okay.
Please continue.
Kat (29:25):
The sound bath was really cool cuz it felt like I was
feeling things like that arelike deeply in my body all the
way through my body.
Sort of like, like bubble up tothe surface and it looked like.
I wanna say dust like particles,there we go.
It looked like particles.
And then like, I would justlike, like swoosh them away and
then like, just settle back intomore of like this cool sort of
(29:49):
relaxed feeling and then moreand more would sort of bubble
up.
So I was laying in bed alone bymyself with the music on a
little bit high.
And then every once in a while Iwould just lift my hands and
just like, sort of almost likedoing like I was w.
Over my
Val (30:02):
body.
Mm-hmm
Kat (30:02):
I wasn't even really touching my skin, but just sort
of like pushing it out, like,okay, we're done with that.
And then you and I happened tocall, we talked about some
podcast stuff, and then all of asudden I was like crying and
telling you about this reallyold shit that I it's funny, cuz
it was happening noncognitively.
I I wasn't like aware of whatexactly was coming up through.
Yeah.
(30:23):
Ready to heal itself.
Right.
Mm-hmm and then all of a suddenyou were there.
my darling friend.
Who's so good at being a talktherapist.
All of it just sort of came outand I was like it was like
really, really young, youngstuff.
And boy, I was so grateful tohave you to talk to just in like
half an hour after and sort ofcomplete that cycle of things
that were like wanting to behealed.
Val (30:44):
Mm
Kat (30:45):
yeah.
Val (30:45):
yeah.
And we talked about the wordpreverbal there, like yeah, just
that sometimes there's thingsthat, affected us that were
before we even had words for it.
Kat (30:54):
know.
And so it felt really true to methat like the medicinal
psychedelic was like helping meaccess things that I cognitively
didn't actually even have accessto, you know, and I have been
someone.
Adamantly trying to be whole andto heal since I was 20 years
old, it became like this hyperfocus of my life of like
recognizing the patterns of myparents and knowing I didn't
(31:17):
wanna repeat them.
Right.
And then Yeah.
And so I'm just, I feel sohopeful.
Val (31:26):
dear listeners.
as you can see, the drugs areworking,
Kat (31:32):
you're
Val (31:34):
This is actually commercial
Kat (31:37):
it, a commercial for that documentary.
Yeah.
Is how to change your brain onNetflix.
You
Val (31:42):
know what so, so, you know, one of our questions is like,
what are you learning?
And I was just looking, youknow, doing some research about
ketamine and the MDMA and.
Why they're so helpful.
Well, I can speak for sure aboutthe ketamine that it, it
strengthens neurotransmitters.
Kat (31:57):
Oh yeah.
Val (31:58):
That might be a damaged, especially in
Kat (32:01):
early
Val (32:02):
trauma in early childhood trauma.
Wow.
You know, we we've talked aboutthe ACEs score before that
doctors started.
Curious about why certain peoplehave so many health issues, like
what what's the root let's get,find the root.
Right.
That the higher your score wason this early childhood trauma
scale, the high they saw thelink.
Kat (32:20):
Yeah.
Val (32:21):
And unfortunately, dear friend, you know, the early
childhood trauma stuff is tough.
Kat (32:26):
know.
I know.
Val (32:27):
Yeah it just really affects so much.
So I know.
Aw,
Kat (32:30):
making me feel a little weepy now.
Like I I am someone thatexperience early childhood
trauma and, you know, I don't, Idon't have any control over
that.
And you know, here I am in mylike mid forties and it feels
really good to.
To see some of that heal itself,right?
Yeah.
And to like have support, right?
Like there are kind good humansin my life.
(32:52):
And then I stumble upon otherthings that are supportive.
Like, oh my God, we were likeindoctrinated that, you know,
drugs were bad.
And then we got to like, leavethat and be like, Nope, I'm
gonna explore the thing I'mcurious about.
And so then the thing that I'mcurious about is bringing this
wholeness, I've been, you know,wanting my whole life and, you
know, and I get to.
(33:14):
Oh, I, I think I'll tell thispart too.
I, I, in a meditation, I wasfeeling real tender and I was
noticing that it felt reallyyoung.
And so the way I practiceself-compassion is I just
imagine a comfy space and Ibring all these like aspects of
myself into this space.
And so I brought.
Baby this baby version ofCatherine.
And it was like a brand newcrawling baby, right?
(33:36):
So like in the six, eight monthin that window where they're
just starting to crawl and I hadimagined sort of like the more
adult versions of me at variousages.
Sort of surrounding the baby inlike a circle on a comfy carpet
and the little tiny babyCatherine is getting picked up
and like nuzzled and snuggledand like looked deeply into
(33:58):
their eyes and and then likegoes on to the next person.
When I can access what thepainfulness of that.
There, there was some likespecific abuse things that were
happening in my young childhood,but like I also, the, the
emotional thing was like, myparents were trying to survive.
And so I didn't ever feel seen,like, and I was a middle child
(34:18):
in a kind of chaotic homeenvironment.
And so like you were talkingabout like that long
Val (34:22):
gaze,
Kat (34:23):
right.
and and how we need that andhow, how desperately children
really need that to like, havesomeone lovingly look into their
eyes with, like, I see you.
I love you.
I'm here for you.
And so.
My God, you
Val (34:39):
Yeah.
I took a just quickly, I took atraining from, from these
amazing people that work a lotwith, childhood trauma.
And they just kept talking.
That's why I shared it with you.
Like they kept talking about theimportance of that gaze and how
like, healing that is right.
To have someone look you in theeye and say you're lovable.
This shouldn't have happened toyou.
(34:59):
You didn't deserve this.
You are worthy your whole.
Kat (35:03):
Yeah.
Val (35:03):
And, and how powerful that was for, for people's healing.
Kat (35:07):
Yeah.
I just feel so much gratitude.
Like, you know, we talk abouthow much we love our podcast so
much.
And I'm so grateful because itmeans I spend so much more time
with you.
you're so great.
and fun to look at.
That's amazing.
Val (35:25):
this is another one of our, our brand points is that we can
be going from like healing yourinner child to
Kat (35:32):
to like gas in a
Val (35:33):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Can I, can I read this?
I don't know if this is a goodplace for us to kind of start
winding down, but you know,we're talking about
intergenerational trauma.
So not just like guys, this iswhat's.
This is what we're stacked upagainst, right?
It's not.
Stuff that you remember that wewere harmed by, but the things
that like happened before wewere verbal before, like, you
know, our, our prefrontal cortexreally knew what to do with it.
(35:56):
Right.
So it's stored inside of ourbodies.
and then we even haveintergenerational trauma, right?
The study of epigenetics, justhow that trauma can be passed
down into our DNA and what thatmeans for oppressed people and
what that means for people wherethere has been trauma in our
bloodlines.
Right.
So the egg that made you.
(36:17):
In your grandmother's body.
Kat (36:19):
Mm.
Val (36:20):
Right?
So then your cells are alsoaffected by even the trauma that
your grandmother went through.
Right.
and so how we really are soconnected, and part of
self-compassion one of the, thepillars of that too, is how, you
know, to access.
Self-compassion like, it's notjust all on us.
Like our independence will bethe end of us.
(36:41):
I think in west.
Their culture.
Right?
It's it's not so helpful, butjust to think about like, it's
not just on all on you, like,you're the, some parts of like
the family you came from, likethe nurture and the nature and
the ancestors and all thesethings.
Right.
A part of a collective and, andwe're all just doing our best.
Right.
And so to try to get somecompassion for yourself in all
(37:01):
of that, you're not just the sumof your actions.
You're the sum of everythingthat your people went through.
right.
So this is from a website abouthealing intergenerational trauma
through ketamine therapy.
Okay.
This is a little, this is alittle
Kat (37:14):
drugs,
Val (37:15):
intergenerational trauma can have a tremendous often
unconscious impact on inindividual's mental or physical
wellbeing.
With the scientific study ofepigenetics.
We see the ways in which traumagets inherited in a family.
Exploring our unconsciousconnection to our lineage.
A person may gain anunderstanding of this
(37:35):
transgenerational transmissionsof trauma based patterns and
identify the behaviors, emotionswith transgenerational
components.
Kat (37:44):
Mm.
Val (37:45):
the ketamine medicine marries well with the healing
intergenerational trauma andgenerational shame.
Mm-hmm Ooh.
Mm.
I
Kat (37:54):
I know
Val (37:55):
it acts as an empathogen.
Kat (37:58):
empathogen
Val (37:58):
Opening the hearts.
Yeah.
And relaxing logic.
Kat (38:02):
Ah,
Val (38:02):
Ah, so that a person can connect sincerely, emotionally
and heartfully to the theancestor or to the trauma of a
family member that may not havebeen incurred in their lifetime.
Wow.
But lingers throughout thelineage.
Oh, I'm.
Goosebumps, just reading this.
A person may useintergenerational trauma
(38:23):
healing, ketamine therapy tobuild compassion, where there
was shame and connect with theancestral resources and
resiliencies.
And that we know that that'ssuch another important component
of healing.
Right.
Is your resources and yourresiliency.
And that's just one of the ways,right.
That kind of mean can help.
Yeah.
Us heal some of those thingsthat we don't really have access
(38:45):
to right at the, at the surface.
Kat (38:47):
And in slightly different ways, all of these things that
we've mentioned in the podcasttoday, like they're all I.
Allowing us to access differentparts of our brain, really, you
know, to turn down like we, weall can picture the brain skin,
right?
Yeah.
Western society told us toreally live in our thinking
brain.
But they're asking us also tolive less in our emotional
states.
Right.
Yeah.
And so when we just turn thevolume down on this one
(39:09):
particular part of your brain,that little piece of your brain
is not all of you.
right, right.
So much more.
And so it's interesting thatthese things exist in nature
like that the world, the earthprovided this for us.
Right.
That's a fun, like, woo, woo.
Way to think of it.
You know, like Gaia motherearth, whatever, like has
already given us these beautifultools The documentary too talks
(39:31):
about like indigenous peoplesand how their relationship with
the mushrooms and the guysdifferent psychedelics and even,
you know, cactus and used inritual, ancient long, long,
before us, you
Val (39:41):
that's one way that, like, I think therapists are trying to
decolonize therapy.
Yeah.
Right.
And not just give all the creditto this Western sort of
Eurocentric way.
But even when I explainbilateral stimulation or the use
of bilateral movements to calmyou, and that's just like, Where
you can tap both sides of yourbody, right.
Or even some of the tapping,the, meridians in your body.
(40:02):
This is all from ancientcultures.
So we need to give
Kat (40:06):
appropriate credit.
Val (40:07):
Yeah,
Kat (40:08):
We're slowly catching up to things that people already now
and then, you know, colonialsand try to stamp it all out and
they're like always better.
And then you're like, oops.
Nope, no, it's not.
It's awful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (40:17):
So a,
Kat (40:19):
Oh, this is a fun episode, Valerie.
I know.
All right.
Healing and drugs and sex androck and roll motherfuckers.
Val (40:27):
You did mention that you were like, I think you and RAI,
you know, in the last episode wetalked about some of our
unsolvable problems you guysshould just take some drugs
together and I think it would begood for your relationship.
So, so tune in, I don't know ifit'll be a live stream, but you
know, if we do decide to do it,we'll report back.
Kat (40:43):
good.
That
Val (40:43):
good.
Okay.
We have talked a lot about whatwe're learning.
What's moving around and what'sbringing us pleasure.
So I think it's time.
Kat (40:50):
Yep.
I love you, Val.
Val (40:52):
I love you too.
Bye.
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