July 18, 2022 • 40 mins
Resistance is something all of us experience from time to time. This week Kat and Val explore cool shit they have learned about resistance in their own lives and how being curious about it can open up new paths to profound freedom. Also, they laugh and swear at lot and that’s just fucking fun.
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
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Kat and Val Podcast
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So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
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Kat's offerings:
Fat Liberation Art -Fat Mystic Etsy Shop
Instagram Fat_Mystic_Art
Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Enneagram
The Four Tendencies
Myers Briggs Personality Profiles
Highly Sensitive People (HSP)
Fat Liberation Movement
Lipedema
Exvangelical/deconstructing from Christianity
ADHD
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
(00:33):
Hello.
You're making the
Kat (00:37):
funniest face
Val (00:38):
I was like, should we do a staring=contest?
But that wouldn't be so fun on apodcast.
Kat (00:45):
not one of your better instincts.
Val (00:48):
let's see how long it takes for either of us to say anything
that we, I don't think we wouldbe good at that.
I'd wanna talk the I lovetalking to you.
I'm glad you're here.
It's a nice day.
We should tell the people I waswatering.
My fiddle leaf fig, which weknow are like
Kat (01:05):
though.
Kind of
Val (01:06):
fiddle leaf F
Kat (01:08):
It's a fiddle leaf.
Oh, cuz the leaf looks like afiddle.
Oh, I see that.
Sure.
Val (01:11):
I have no idea.
I beautiful plan.
It
Kat (01:14):
well, I'm looking at this beautiful plant and I know that
you're proud of yourself thatit's still alive, right?
Val (01:18):
right.
Because like we travel a lot.
It is a tree.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I also say it's the onlything that's, happy that we're
gone for a great length of time,because it only wants to be
watered like once every twoweeks or three weeks
Kat (01:30):
Oh,
Val (01:30):
something.
So I was watering it cuz it'skind of hot today and I have a
little sundress on and.
Kat (01:38):
was thanking you for the view.
Yeah.
So I can see you watering itfrom here.
And you were like, we're in thisshore dress and you were leaning
over and I was like, wow, PS gotincredible legs.
Val (01:49):
but you're like, Ooh, thanks for the view.
So I need to put one more cup ofwater instead of bending over.
I
Kat (01:56):
a knee.
Val (01:58):
down.
So was to not expose myself ina.
Kat (02:03):
it, wasn't like I was,
Val (02:06):
Well, I dunno.
I was like, I dunno how much I'mshowing it could just be my
calf.
I don't know.
Or maybe it's like my wholebutt.
I don't know
Kat (02:14):
my God.
If it was your whole butt, Iwould probably look awake.
Cause I'd be like, oh, that'sprobably not, you know, like,
That's that seems inappropriate,but like, you know, you're just
like showing a little extra leg.
I was like, fantastic legs.
Wonderful.
Look at these fantastic legstoday.
What good choices you have madelike in your ensemble?
(02:38):
It's wonderful.
Val (02:39):
Oh, that is so funny.
And then, your jumpsuit.
Yeah.
Your wardrobe stuff ishappening.
You're just like showing me thatyour, dress is falling down your
jumpsuit.
So we're just having a good oldtime over here.
It's so funny though.
Isn't it?
How we mix, deep, emotionaltransformational topics and a
(03:00):
booty shot.
I wasn't even a booty shot.
Kat (03:06):
Oh, that's so funny.
There's some upper thigh actionthere.
What is the back of your thighcalled?
Yeah.
Hamstrings.
Congratulations.
Val (03:13):
Yeah.
Yes.
Congratulations.
Kat (03:14):
to you.
Pick a ball has given you somefantastic hamstring.
Val (03:19):
I caught my pickleball, but yep.
Oh, KA.
Kat (03:21):
cats.
Hi.
Hi.
I'm like really excited.
I mean, the lead up for thisconversation, I'm telling
Val (03:28):
you
Kat (03:28):
I am pumped up today.
We're gonna talk about reframing
Val (03:38):
Yes.
Kat (03:38):
Yes.
Which is a very cool thing totalk about because in my
experience.
I feel like most people don'tknow that when we're resistant
to something, it's justinformation and often very
helpful things.
And so I want all human beingsto sort of like make peace with
the fact that we feel resistanceto stuff sometimes.
(03:58):
And that's totally fine andgood.
And we can talk to resistanceand be like, what are you trying
to tell me, motherfucker?
Val (04:06):
just like that.
Exactly like that.
Totally.
Yes.
Kat (04:09):
Ah, yeah.
So today's topic.
Yeah.
Reframing
Val (04:12):
reframing resistance.
Yeah.
Kat (04:13):
adjusting how we understand resistance.
We experience in our own
Val (04:17):
body what's our default?
How are we experiencing it?
Re resistance.
We don't like it.
Kat (04:22):
Yeah.
We try to reject it.
I think it falls under thecategory of like negative
emotion.
Mm-hmm right.
Mm-hmm or we can shame spiralbecause we feel it like the idea
that we just choose to getcurious about things that show
up for us versus judging whatshows up for us.
Mm-hmm very different.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (04:40):
So resistance, maybe not being just a roadblock or just
like a, an, well,
Kat (04:46):
Well, that's the other thing.
We live in a culture that tellsus to like railroad resistance.
We might be feeling right.
And that's not always
Val (04:53):
happening.
Kat (04:54):
Right.
So it depends on the context.
we don't know why any resistanceis showing up in your life.
Right.
Mm-hmm so the context is superimportant, but yeah, no matter
what the context.
our resistance is somethingimportant for us to recognize
and, and, and we recognize it bybeing in our body.
Right.
And then for us to likenegotiate and like understand
(05:15):
and bring some compassion to andsay, Hey, what am I learning?
Because I feel this resistance,you know, Yeah.
Yeah,
Val (05:21):
yeah.
You know, in therapy school wasI about to say that in therapy
school?
that was kind of one of thoseOoh aha moments I had where, you
know, where I learned aboutSeeing resistance as a really,
really helpful information.
Right.
Especially if, if you feel likea client is being resistant to
something you're trying to bringup right.
Not moralizing or judging thator seeing that as problematic,
(05:44):
also seeing that you're not theall knowing all powerful
therapists that the person,their body, their minds are
like, Nope.
And it's so fascinating.
So we're seeing resistance islike, Ooh.
That's information.
Kat (05:58):
Yeah.
Val (05:59):
I've been curious and when someone's Response.
Isn't what I thought it wasgonna be.
Or if I feel some resistance,I'm like, Ooh, tell me more why.
Kat (06:08):
And then there usually is yes.
Val (06:11):
A really, really valid and important reason why they're
feeling resistant about that.
And it's like, oh, I wouldn'thave known that.
I wouldn't have thought of that.
But your body is telling youlike me.
Nope.
Kat (06:27):
that's a weird noise.
Your body
Val (06:28):
is
Kat (06:29):
weird noises.
I, yeah.
when I'm navigatinginterpersonal relationships, I.
Have learned to like noticeresistance and then just welcome
it.
whether it's my own resistanceor maybe someone else's, cuz you
can kind of feel thatenergetically too when you're
just relating to people.
And then suddenly you can feellike a shift and like something
(06:49):
that was open is maybe closingand you're like, oh, Hey, let's
talk about that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
but without judgment.
we spent a lot of time talkinglast time about rejection,
sensitivity, dysphoria.
so it's really helpful if youreframe how you understand
resistance, you don't understandit as rejection.
Right.
You understand it as you know,information.
Yeah.
And so then you can just sort ofcheck in about that.
(07:11):
Yeah.
Val (07:12):
Well, you had a little bit, you wanna talk about your kind
of episode about resistance?
Kat (07:17):
not really.
I'm having some
Val (07:20):
are you having some resistance about the re.
Kat (07:24):
Okay.
Well, okay.
So you know, we, you hear it inour intro.
You and I both live with chronic
Val (07:29):
illness.
Mm-hmm
Kat (07:30):
and my experience of trying to navigate My own like healing
or wellness journey withintraditional medicine has been
disheartening, you knowmainstream medicine.
Doesn't really, it's notexcelling at trying to like deal
with chronic illness, right.
Because there's a lot of mysteryinvolved in chronic illness.
Val (07:48):
And can I just say too, I know we talked about this on a
prior episode, just a little,it's a complex, it's an
industrial complex.
Yeah.
Like we talk about the prisonindustrial complex and like, it
is a capitalistic we don't havesocialized medicine.
Right.
There's a lot of profit and itreally is like, you have a
(08:08):
problem.
We're trying to fix it.
Kat (08:11):
Yeah.
Val (08:11):
For really like, right.
As cheap as possible, also
Kat (08:15):
they can.
Val (08:15):
And I know we have amazing friends, people that are out
there in the healthcare systemthat have empathy and are
caring, but the system treatsyou like a problem.
Yeah.
And if it's not cut and dry,right.
Then your problem is a problemto them, right.
That they can't cure for you.
Kat (08:34):
Yeah.
Or they just are like, good luckwith that.
you know, like there's just noanswers and there's not.
I think there's not space orbandwidth for the amount of
collective curiosity around, youknow, holistic medicine.
Right.
And how to like, be with aperson who's having some really
complicated symptoms you know,to help them, you know, find
(08:54):
something that might, improvehow they're feeling and
Val (08:57):
Man.
we talked about also lessepisode about stress cycles.
Right.
And being able to like speak outand I do in the flight flatter
freeze.
I do the freeze
Kat (09:05):
response.
Yeah.
Val (09:07):
Yeah.
If someone is like disrespectingme or treating me badly at first
is the freeze what is thisreally happening?
I went to a doctor.
And I was IBS on top of my otherchronic stuff, and that's pretty
common like, and The care that Igot was so terrible that I was
(09:27):
like the first time I wrote aGoogle review.
And I just was like, if you wantcompassionate care, if you've
ever had any sort of eatingdisorder, please do not go to
this office.
You will not receive what youneed.
Thousands of people have readit.
Oh my I'm so proud of it.
And people are thumbs up in itand I'm just like, no, this
(09:47):
person was really, reallyterrible to me.
And just so dismissive, sodismissive.
So, Like I'm validating even,maybe some of the resistance you
had.
Yeah.
And when you, Deal with chronicstuff.
It is like, mm.
I, haven't gone to the doctorsabout my fibromyalgia in like
two decades, because unlessthere's something new, yeah.
(10:09):
I, I don't know what they coulddo for me.
I really don't.
You know, so I can understandthe resistance.
Kat (10:14):
Thank you.
Val (10:15):
To going
Kat (10:16):
right.
And so you know, I'm having someissues where I'm having sort of
new symptoms that are recurringmore frequently and they're
pretty debilitating.
And so again, it's a whole, likequality of life and I.
I've done all this work aroundlike resting when I need to, and
trying to listen to my body andlike being kind and gentle of my
body and accepting I myself as Iam and embracing some
(10:36):
limitations, all that's fine.
But then, you know, I'm likemore is heaped on top of, and
I'm like, I'm having a hard timefunctioning.
And so you were just so kind andjust very, like, it's very like
consistently coming back tolike, so what.
Some tests though, maybe.
Huh And so, yeah, and then Iactually do like my primary care
physician.
It's just you know, it's in theKaiser system.
(10:57):
I know that she has 1500patients it's too
Val (11:00):
that number blows my mind.
That number blows my mind
Kat (11:02):
Right.
Cause not everyone is evenaccessing care who has
insurance.
Right.
And so, but that's too much towork on.
You know, the, the doctor can'tspend the amount of time with me
that, you know, I need
Val (11:12):
Sure, sure.
Kat (11:13):
Sure.
And so anyway, yeah, so Iemailed her and then she ordered
some tests and I went and gotthe test done.
And so you know, I'll wait tosee an E email and then I try to
schedule an appointment formyself and it's weeks away,
stupid dumb thing unbeliev.
I know.
So anyway, and then
Val (11:26):
you were noticing that you had some resistance.
Yeah.
Kat (11:30):
Well, the resistance is because of the trauma of the
medical industrial complex,right?
Like it's everything you justsaid.
Yeah.
I've had all those experiencestoo.
And then it, it feels like a lotto welcome someone into a space
that's so tender and I wasnoticing that will.
The resistance comes from thereluctance to open up something
(11:52):
that's so tender, cuz it feelsscary to have new symptoms and
to feel like I can't functionlike this.
Right.
And so, I, you know, had madeplans with someone and had to go
on a bit of a drive to get tothem.
And then I ended up getting sickat their place and I felt so
terrible.
Like I felt really yucky and badand I wasn't in my own space.
(12:15):
And so it made fear show upwhere I'm like, God, can I not
go do fun things that are, youknow, a few hours away?
So it's just a thing where I've.
Already adapted my life quite abit, and I don't want my world
to get even smaller, you know?
And so that feels tender becausethere's grief and there's
unknowns.
And maybe I feel like I failedbecause
Val (12:36):
Jesus
Kat (12:37):
thought my like strategy was.
Pretty pretty amazing andrevolutionary I'm like, I'm
gonna be the mostself-compassion radical
acceptance person out there.
Like that's, I'm gonna regulatemy nervous system by being kind
to myself and resting as much asI need to.
So I have this deep practice,which I has changed my life.
(12:57):
Like I love it, but my body'sstill freaking out.
So.
Val (13:01):
Sure.
And I think the symptoms startedto show up when you were going
through a stressful yeah.
They're flaring up during astressful time, but then some of
the symptoms seemed maybe alittle bit more acute, okay,
maybe a doctor actually can helpwith this.
Obviously.
Tons of things get worse whenwe're more stressed, but it
seemed like maybe this issomething that needs to get
(13:23):
tested.
Right.
Kat (13:24):
So I'm like actively in that process, but yeah, like, so
when I get curious about theresistance, I found a lot of
spaces that are, you know, kindof tucked in pretty tight that
need some love and care andcompassion.
Right.
And even talking about it outloud, I can hear how it's still
tender.
Right.
And so.
That's what that resistance toldme is that there's some tender
(13:45):
that will probably take me sometime to sit with and be with and
slowly invite people into.
Mm.
And, you know, again, that's ourprerogative.
Like when we ask resistance,what are you there for?
It usually is preservation ofsome kind, right?
It's self protection.
Yeah.
Val (14:00):
Self-protection
Kat (14:01):
Yeah.
And so it's not a negativething.
The people that I agree to letinto this space that they have
to be, you know, well, vettedbecause I, cause I, I don't feel
safe, sharing it.
You know the details of it with,just anybody cuz it's tender and
it hurts and it feels it'sunresolved and it's not neat and
tidy.
And I would like it to be sure
Val (14:21):
Sure.
Well, it sounds like there'sfear of the unknown, right?
Is it hopelessness of, themedical con also, I think I made
up the term about it.
I don't know if I did make thatup.
I just wanna
Kat (14:29):
maybe I've heard it.
The medical industrial conflictsounds like a thing.
Yeah.
Val (14:32):
But some distrust or some like why even try well founded.
Yeah,
Kat (14:38):
exactly.
And so like, that's the thing,in order to get these tests run,
to see if there is somethingmaybe medical that could be
tweaked and addressed so
Val (14:45):
mm-hmm
Kat (14:45):
feel better.
Right.
That's the goal.
Yeah.
I have to then get myself kindof settled in enough that I'm
like, okay, I'm gonna take thisrisk again within a system that
I already know.
Has not served me well.
Right.
And again, even though I like myactual PCP, my primary care
physician she, herself is notproblematic in any particular
(15:06):
way.
we can't solve the puzzle veryeasily.
Right.
Mm-hmm and so,
Val (15:10):
and just even the energy of advocating for yourself, all of
it pushing.
Yes.
Right.
All of that is, is verydifficult and takes a lot of
energy and all of that.
Kat (15:20):
Yeah,
Val (15:22):
also a little bit different than resistance, but I talk
about anxiety and we haven'treally talked a ton about it yet
on the podcast, but I feel likeanxiety is helpful to a.
Kat (15:33):
point.
Val (15:34):
Kind of like, okay, should I be worried about this?
Like I remember being worriedabout you know, my dad died
young.
And so just checking on myself,getting, blood tests and all
that right.
Feeling resistance to that.
Actually I didn't feelresistance.
Well, I didn't recognize it.
I felt anxiety about my health.
Well, why, well, because youdon't have any data.
You haven't gotten it checked ina while.
(15:55):
Right.
And so just noticing that evenanxiety can be just that nudge
sometimes that's where it'shelpful, I think productive.
And then when it goes pastworry, we need to release it,
Anxiety can't or worry.
Can't really change my health.
But it can, it
Kat (16:13):
can, well, it can't improve your
Val (16:14):
health.
It can't improve.
It
Kat (16:15):
can, can
Val (16:16):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you for that.
Very
Kat (16:19):
I know.
I was like, I'm pretty sure
Val (16:22):
Right.
Worry can, oh geez.
I can, but it's not going tohelp my health.
Right.
But that kind of nudge, like, soif we're feeling anxious about
something like, is, is theanxiety nudging me to do
anything?
okay.
Yep.
Let me go schedule some tests.
Right.
So sometimes those feelingsactually have a real helpful
duty.
Kat (16:39):
Our culture asks us over and over again shut down
anything we perceive as negativeemotions.
So anxiety resistance.
Right.
So like really the, biggerumbrella here in this
conversation, it's not justresistance, but it's anything
that we understand as negativeemotion.
Like if we can move away fromthe black and white thinking or
the binary thinking of this isgood, this is bad.
(17:01):
This is negative.
This is positive.
Mm-hmm if we just acknowledge anemotion has shown up enough that
we're like, oh, that's a thing.
You know,
Val (17:09):
Yeah.
Kat (17:09):
of back when we were in Bible college, mm-hmm I lived in
a much smaller body then, but Istill had a slightly larger body
than I thought I was supposed tohave.
So we were on drama teams,remember?
Val (17:20):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
We
Kat (17:21):
had to go to the fucking store and like pick out the
clothes.
And so we're supposed to havelike the same uniform, I can't
buy the same pants at the rackwhere everyone else is buying
them.
I have to go to differentsection.
Right.
And so that didn't feel good atall.
Mm-hmm and yeah.
And then also the clothing thatwere picked out for this drama
team.
a baggy sweatshirt and khakipants.
(17:43):
Yeah.
And I'm like, that's not fuckinggonna look good on me.
And I remember the director,like noticing that I was
shutting down and then likeinsisting on me telling her what
the problem was and that justmade it, I felt worse, you know?
Oh, I mean, I didn't.
Skills to articulate it, but,you know, I think I got the
point across and then she sortof left it alone,.
(18:03):
But what I was feeling was likeintense shame and it was
shutting me down.
And so it could have been likethis fun all of us are like
having this bonding experience.
We're doing this thing and we'reexcited about the drama teams,
but I remember like the wholerest of the day felt bad to me.
Mm.
Yeah..
Well, I didn't know how to likeown it or let it move through.
All I knew how to do was shutsomething down, Shutting
Val (18:23):
down an emotion versus acknowledging it.
Yeah.
Validating it.
Mm-hmm being curious about beingcurious.
Right.
Kat (18:31):
Asking for support around.
Yeah.
I mean, I think all of us, Imean, listeners, I'm sure you
can relate to this.
I think all of us have storeswhere we can remember, oh, I
just shut down.
And I didn.
Address, whatever, again, thenegative a feeling was so yeah,
if we talk about negativeemotions, like sometimes it's
really hard to recognize shamewhen it shows up.
(18:52):
I feel like shame is one of themost sort of sneaky and
insidious painful
Val (18:56):
emotion.
Kat (18:57):
I mean, is it an emotion is an experience.
Is it just programming?
Is it just the story we'retelling ourselves around
something?
Val (19:03):
Yeah.
I think maybe it's, all the bothends.
Like I think it can be called anemotion.
I'm feeling shame.
I also think you have a bodilyresponse to it.
Mm
Kat (19:12):
Mm.
Yeah.
Val (19:13):
also, could it be a belief I love the very simple
definition that guilt is I didsomething bad.
Oops, my bad, I hurt yourfeelings, but shame is I'm bad,
I'm a fuck up.
I'm terrible.
I'm not worthy anymore so guiltis, I did a bad thing.
Shame is I'm bad.
Kat (19:29):
Yeah.
And I just, I wanna send likeyounger Catherine, a lot of
compassion because I felt like Iwas bad.
I was wrong because my body, Icouldn't clothe it in the same
part of the goddamn departmentstore as the other people that's
fucked up.
That's sad.
I'm sorry about that.
I'm sorry for me.
You know what I mean?
Yeah,
Val (19:47):
Oh, a hundred percent.
One time we were in Brazil and Ileft my bathing suit there and
he's like, oh, just go buy abikini right here.
And I, I had so much shame thatI didn't wanna say.
it won't fit me or it won't lookgood.
I mean, I couldn't believe weactually found one that fit, but
then I wore a shirt over it, cuzI was like, well, my stomach's
not flat.
Like, you know what I mean?
(20:08):
That was maybe seven years agoor eight years ago.
But that shame that.
And again, because it'sinternalized because we were
taught that we were bad becausewe couldn't keep our bodies at a
certain size that was healthyand acceptable or whatever.
Right.
That we were bad.
We must have done somethingwrong
Kat (20:28):
Yeah.
I'm just realizing I'mremembering more about the drama
team story.
Ooh.
So listen, I don't know if I'vebeen clear of listeners, Valerie
and I, we were both on dramateam.
We used to on weekends, go andtravel at churches and sometimes
our spring break.
Val (20:42):
and summer break
Kat (20:43):
too.
We would go and travel all thesechurches.
we would do skits.
Val (20:47):
What were the other things called?
Human videos.
Oh my gosh.
Kat (20:51):
God.
Oh, I, I feel, feels real.
Val (20:53):
If you were here for the deconstruction.
You did human videos in youryouth group,
Kat (20:59):
what's funny is human videos are like a fun thing to
do.
Now I think about TikTok.
it's that fun, creative energyof like, here's a song I'm gonna
MI it and I'm maybe gonna createdance
Val (21:09):
moves.
Mm-hmm mm-hmm
Kat (21:11):
similar.
So we were all really into it,but they were always Christian
songs.
We were trying to get peoplesaved.
Val (21:16):
But God's love like, that was, that was in there too.
It wasn't it
Kat (21:19):
it was, it was for being
Val (21:19):
cat.
It was for being so optimistic.
And in its own way.
Sure.
I think it was like an outreachof Hey God is here for you and
here's healing
Kat (21:30):
Yeah.
They weren't all bad.
But yeah, there was just, therewas still a lot of the toxic
Val (21:34):
stuff It's the both ACA
Kat (21:35):
So what I was remembering as we're having this
conversation, I had resistance.
It's flooding my memory of likeI had dread and resistance.
I did not wanna go and I didn'twanna go because I fucking knew
you
Val (21:47):
it was not
Kat (21:48):
like, it was not gonna be fun to try to go shopping with
other people, especially inother people in more normative
bodies than myself.
Right.
And I was gonna feel othered andthat would make me feel shame.
Val (21:58):
Yeah.
Kat (21:59):
So like resistance in that story was self-preservation.
I didn't wanna have that shameexperience.
Val (22:04):
Yeah.
Kat (22:05):
Mm-hmm So like in interpersonal relationships,
when suddenly someone isbehaving oddly, and you know,
you guys realize there's someresistance to that.
Again, being curious and notjudgemental about it, because we
don't know someone's wholestory.
Val (22:18):
Okay.
Before we go any further withresistance, should we cut to
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Val (23:25):
All right.
Thank you.
We're back.
Yay.
Alright.
So today reframing resistance.
I think we have a coupleoptions.
When resistance shows up.
Kat (23:36):
Sure.
Yeah.
Val (23:37):
I think first we've talked a lot about centering yourself,
right?
Checking in with yourself, isthis something that I wanna do
so first maybe the resistance isshowing up because oh, I don't
want to do this.
And maybe giving yourselfpermission.
Giving yourself permission tosay, this does not sound good.
Right.
And giving yourself thepermission to center yourself.
Kat (23:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Val (24:00):
Then I think there's a deeper one, right?
What's showing up for me.
And what's deeper here.
What's the backstory.
what's the backstory, crack itopen.
There's something else going onhere.
And, and kind of just sittingwith that and asking those
questions to see like, Okay,well then where do we go from
(24:21):
here?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (24:23):
I have a practice
Val (24:24):
I Ooh,
Kat (24:24):
kind of intuited, you know, like I later found out that
there is something in therapyterms.
That's called internal familysystems.
Mm-hmm and so, but my ownpractice of it is when I
experience a particular emotion,it's quite strong.
Sometimes I will do the thingwhere I personify
Val (24:40):
it.
Mm.
And
Kat (24:41):
so.
So what I do is I I have createdinside my body just using my
imagination really decadentliving room.
Right.
Val (24:49):
It's
Kat (24:49):
is my internal spaces.
And so it's blankets and snacksand the comas couches and you
know it's wonderful.
Val (24:58):
It's a such great space.
Kat (24:59):
Also.
There's like a lot of windowsand there's like beautiful
Val (25:01):
views.
It's So fantastic.
Kat (25:02):
fantastic.
And so when there's somethinghappening that I, I need to have
a better understanding of, Iwill personify it.
So there's a door and I welcome.
Whatever's showing up for me.
They can come in the door.
And so it's really kind of coolbecause oftentimes it'll look,
you know, like kind of likepeople or whatever.
But they're quite distinctive.
Like, I mean, different ages ofCatherine has shown up,
Val (25:24):
Mm.
So different parts of yourself.
Kat (25:26):
All, I mean, it can be anything
Val (25:27):
though.
And that's the
Kat (25:27):
the neat thing, Like I may have shared this before, but
like one time, grief was showingup in such a big way.
Mm-hmm and I was reallysurprised that when I allowed
grief him, it didn't show up inany kind of.
Form that looked humanoid orlike an animal.
It was like this orb, this largemessy pulsating orb.
I remember feeling like anxiouscuz it was making mess in my
(25:49):
beautiful imagined space.
Val (25:51):
oh
Kat (25:51):
yeah.
And it reminded me of Pigpen,you know how from in the, in the
peanuts, like he's just making amess.
There's like a mess puddlearound him.
And it was this throbbing sortof orb thing and it was quite
large.
And so then I had invited ahuman that I love and feel safe
with, to sit with the, griefwith me because it was a really
overpowering emotion for me.
And so I was like, could youplease ask grief
Val (26:13):
questions?
Kat (26:14):
And they were like, they were just along for the ride.
Like, it was a little unusualfor them.
To do this, but they're like,okay, Catherine, whatever.
So they're like grief what youneed.
And it was interesting becauseit, I mean, I heard the answers
show up inside me before theyeven finished getting the
question out.
And then because I wasrecognizing my resistance, I had
resistance to the grief, evenbeing in this like
Val (26:35):
beautiful circum didn't make a
Kat (26:36):
I created.
Cause they're gonna make a.
Val (26:37):
mess.
Kat (26:38):
Right.
And so the answer was griefneeded permission to be here.
And then, so I got to say like,yes, grief you're allowed to be
here.
And then I got to adjust theresistance I was feeling.
So then we just spent a littletime in the orb.
What does it do?
Cracked open and inside of itwas this really young version of
me, like this little three yearold of me,
Val (26:59):
like yeah, like,
Kat (27:00):
went on the couch and like, got to be comforted by a
different aspect of
Val (27:04):
myself.
Kat (27:05):
And I'm telling you, like, all this is happening while like
big crying tears and all thesethings like feeling some big
things.
But what it communicated to mein hindsight is that again, we
can.
Old shit sometimes like thegrief, whatever was happening in
my present day life to sort ofkick it
Val (27:20):
loose.
Yeah.
Kat (27:21):
Yeah.
it was creating a pathway forsome very old
Val (27:24):
grief
Kat (27:25):
to surface and then be healed, right.
Because of care and compassion,you know, and it included that
story includes co-regulation ofanother human being
Val (27:34):
who's sure.
Kat (27:34):
safe and loving.
And so like, I think about howwe would use that say it's
resistance.
So you just.
You know, I do this with people,who I love in my life.
And I'm like, oh, you wanna goplay in the magic space?
And so some people will createan outdoor space, that makes you
just feel so good.
Val (27:49):
KA, so, so for maybe some of our listeners who don't have
such a free access to thisemotional, you know creativity.
Yeah.
I think what you're saying isjust close your eyes and think
of a, place that seems nice toyou.
Is that a good place to start?
Kat (28:06):
absolutely.
So like, just imagine a spacewhere you feel at home and
comfortable.
Yeah.
Okay.
And so that's the key is cuzyou're trying to get your
nervous system out of fight or
Val (28:15):
flight mm-hmm thing.
Kat (28:16):
And so, yeah, so you're picking a beautiful
Val (28:18):
space.
Kat (28:18):
Okay.
And then you just create a doorjust somewhere.
And then, so you welcome, yousay out loud or just in your
imagination, like, okay, I'mready to look at you resistance
and so welcome.
And then here's, what's reallycool.
Is that you'll see like how theyeven present themselves often is
all the information,
Val (28:38):
right?
Yeah.
It look like?
Ooh, I ask clients when there'slike a harsh, inner voice.
Yeah.
I ask well, what do you think itcould look like?
Or if you had to pick, topersonify it or whose voice does
that sound like?
Yeah.
And then it's like, oh, there'ssome answers.
Okay.
Now maybe we.
Seeing some of the origins ofit.
(28:59):
right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Kat (29:01):
it can really help us untangle, like when we're
getting curious about ourselves,especially when it comes to
negative emotions, we're gettingcurious, not judgemental, just
curious.
And so then suddenly there's somuch information that we can
like utilize in reallyproductive ways.
Mm-hmm right.
Or really healing ways.
Mm-hmm and then it just, I don'tknow, I'm fucking passionate
(29:22):
about it cuz it feels so cool toget free.
Yeah.
And this is just another.
Way to
Val (29:26):
get free.
Kat (29:27):
This is how we get free.
Another really helpful thing todo is to just sit and
Val (29:31):
write stream.
Right.
Kat (29:31):
of consciousness.
And then you could do the samekind of thing because yeah, we
can hack it however we want
Val (29:37):
Yeah.
Kat (29:38):
Right.
Figure out what's gonna work
Val (29:39):
for you.
Yeah.
Kat (29:40):
stream of consciousness can be really effective because you
also have some physical movementinvolved.
Mm.
And you're writing.
And what I notice when I dostream of consciousness is that
sometimes it's just the freedomto like write messy, write super
big, underline
Val (29:53):
something
Kat (29:53):
18 times, you know, to like, like harshly flip the page
over and scribble really big.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so what you're doing is.
in any creative way.
You can imagine you're creatingsome space for whatever the
emotion
Val (30:07):
is.
Mm-hmm
Kat (30:07):
to get as big as it needs to get.
Mm-hmm and that's the key we'relooking for creative ways to
like, be with mm-hmm a big, hard
Val (30:15):
emotion.
Yeah.
Kat (30:16):
Yeah.
And then it's allowed to sort ofmove through and often it will
give us really, really helpful
Val (30:21):
information.
Yeah.
Kat (30:22):
will help us navigate, you know, forward in some other
areas of our life.
You know, when I think about,folks out there who are maybe
listening, who this soundsappealing, but maybe
overwhelming if you feel likeit's not something you can
access on your own, that's whenyou're like, Hmm.
I may find a
Val (30:35):
therapist,
Kat (30:36):
you know, or like, you know, there's life coaches,
there's, you know, there'speople out there where this is
their vocation to come alongsideand to help.
So if you don't already haverelationships cultivated where
this is like the kind of shityou can talk
Val (30:47):
folks.
Kat (30:51):
then you know, you seek out, seek out care for folks
who.
can hold space for
Val (30:55):
it.
Kat (30:55):
Sure.
Yeah.
it's one of those things that Ithink most of us can grow in,
learning how to hold space for
Val (31:00):
yourself.
Mm-hmm
Kat (31:01):
and your own individual experiences in a compassionate
way.
Val (31:04):
Mm-hmm
Kat (31:05):
And so going back to the living room though, like again,
whatever your space that youfeel good in, but when I would
welcome.
An emotion in, I would make themas comfortable as I could.
I'd be like here, have a seat,have this fuzzy blanket, you
know?
Would you like a snack?
And that it was like, it waslike a imagined physical way to
offer compassion.
(31:26):
Right.
Val (31:27):
So, and make it feel welcome.
Because we talk about creatingenough space for an emotion to
sort of just be exist, movethrough you.
So it seems like that you weredoing it in a very
Kat (31:38):
creative
Val (31:38):
way.
of Like here
Kat (31:40):
and then here's compassion for you.
Right.
And so compassion looks like ablanket.
Val (31:44):
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
Kat (31:45):
that?
So how can I be soft with you?
How can I engage with you?
Emotion say you're allowed to behere and also like direct some
kindness at you.
And so literally in myimagination, I'm just making
them comfortable.
Isn't that interesting?
It's super
Val (31:59):
It is fun.
You know, another thing that II'd ask someone like when they
have resistance, how well do youfeel?
Oh,
Kat (32:06):
Oh, that's such a good one.
Val (32:07):
cuz I can hear like maybe a client sound kind of like a bra
teenager or even younger, Idon't wanna like, it's so
unfair, not that I'm sayingthose things are bad, but oh,
they feel younger when they'retalking about that thing.
And then you can do some of thiswork with your younger self.
Totally.
Kat (32:23):
When I think about this, it's a room full of beings at
this point, Different ages ofCatherine's.
Right.
all different ages.
Like a neat way to do some innerhealing.
This idea of
Val (32:33):
reparenting yourself?
Mm-hmm
Kat (32:35):
and it's really similar.
There's a lot of overlap betweenwhat I'm saying, just
self-compasion.
But one time I was chatting withsomeone and they had, some big
feelings they're trying toprocess and they needed comfort.
And so I was like, what if youcould imagine a 60 year old
version of yourself?
Could they come into the room?
Mm-hmm right.
And most of us, when we thinkabout that, this older version
(32:55):
is wiser, Mm-hmm and, you know,paternal, right.
mm-hmm if you add 20 years toyour age or whatever.
That was this really powerfulthing for this friend of mine,
suddenly they had access to amature, grounded, loving,
parental
Val (33:10):
self.
Mm mm isn't that interesting.
Mm-hmm
Kat (33:13):
and then when you're just going about your life and your
day, you still have access tothat kind of energy for
reparenting yourself foroffering yourself compassion for
the tender, for the hard, forthe trauma, for whatever is
showing
Val (33:26):
up Yeah.
Yeah.
Ooh.
I like the, older version, cuzmaybe sometimes if you're still
in it, right.
If you're still feeling realtender or I don't know what I'm
doing, like how can I, reparentmy younger self, right.
Accessing an older version thatdoes sound powerful.
Kat (33:42):
I saw something, maybe it was a meme or something, but it
was like, you were already theadult that the child you desk
really wanted.
Val (33:50):
Yes.
Isn't it?
yes, yes.
Yes.
Kat (33:53):
So when you ask these hard emotions, you know, like how old
are
Val (33:57):
you,
Kat (33:57):
But the, the point is, is that most of us still have
tender places.
Yeah.
We've locked down because ourculture wouldn't let us feel our
feelings at the
Val (34:06):
time.
Yeah.
Kat (34:06):
Right.
Val (34:07):
And in the eternal family system.
So they talk about the protectortype mm-hmm and, and this part
of you that is in a lot of timesfrom, some traumatic things, is
that resistance?
Absolutely.
And then, you get to bring theminto the present.
Yeah.
And say like, oh, thank you.
Yeah.
Like that was so wise.
It was so wise to never letanyone in to never take a chance
(34:31):
at vulnerability because of whatyou experienced or that you
weren't able to, you know,control the situation cuz you
were a kid and now welcomingthat person into the future that
version of yourself and go lookaround like, we're adults.
Now this whole apartment isours.
We call the shots.
We decide if we're in danger, wecould do something about it.
(34:51):
And that, protection, maybeisn't.
Need it anymore.
Yeah.
Hey, we can stand up forourselves now we can say no.
Yeah.
And so thanking it, realizingthat it was very helpful then.
Yeah.
And kind of just showing themaround
Kat (35:07):
yeah.
Val (35:07):
Yeah.
Kat (35:08):
And, okay, so I've experienced more than once.
Like something shows up and youinvite them in, you talk to'em
and then they'll transmutethemselves.
Mmm In your imagination, it'salmost like you're watching a
movie, but you're just engagingwith that energy.
And then you address it, youoffer it compassion and it will
just like fucking transformright before your eyes, before
your imagination really
Val (35:25):
before your imagination's eyes.
It's
Kat (35:25):
before your imagination eyes.
But it's interesting because itdoesn't feel like you're
consciously trying to imagineit.
It feels like you're just beingopen and you're allowing these
things to sort of move.
In your consciousness
Val (35:38):
moving like a
Kat (35:38):
almost like a picture like a movie
Val (35:40):
would
Kat (35:40):
mm-hmm it's really cool.
Like even again, that big, scarygrief, right.
That orb thing was throbbing.
And I was so afraid of it.
Like it transmuted, it crackedopen and it turned out to be
this younger version of myself.
Val (35:52):
Well, that's interesting because I'm trained in EMDR
therapy and there's differentphases of it and, sort of
discharge the distress from theold memories.
Yeah.
And then it's called futuretemplating where cuz you always
start with the present triggers,what are the present problems?
Yeah.
Right.
And then you look to the futureand oh how would you wanna deal
with this situation in thefuture?
(36:13):
And so then you create a movie.
And then yep.
And then we do the bilateralstimulation As a part of it, and
we keep doing it until they canrun the movie like they're doing
it successfully.
And then if there's anynegative, they get stuck, then
we, keep reprocessing.
But wow, it's really powerful.
So it's all kind of, right.
It's all kind of in the samerealm
Kat (36:34):
no wrong way.
Right?
Like, you know, that's the neatthing.
Val (36:36):
And you know, I am using more imagination for anxiety
too, because they're showingthat, the part of your brain
that deals with imagery andimagination can be more powerful
to get you unstuck.
Oh.
Than in the cognitive mm-hmmhundred percent.
Yeah.
And this is really powerful.
I know we need to do an, anepisode of, and anxiety, but
(36:57):
especially with people whocatastrophize worst case
scenario, I do suffer from that.
But your brain has already usedits imagination, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
anticipate the worst casescenario.
Sure.
So let's use our brain to thinkof best case scenario and then I
do like a, okay.
We'll live if it happens thisway.
Sure.
Right.
And the power to shift right.
(37:19):
Anxiety that way, instead ofwell, let's think of what are
the probabilities that yourhouse is gonna burn down.
Right.
all of that is really, really
Kat (37:26):
powerful.
Okay.
So like, we're still talking alittle bit about mental
exercises and this kind ofcreativity, but you just like
trying to get into a flow stateby making something or sewing
something, but somethingtactile, like any kind of
creative outlet.
It literally could be ending.
You could be like writing comedyand gonna perform it.
So, but something creative cansometimes move and dislodge some
(37:48):
emotions that can be stuck.
Val (37:49):
And you have to
Kat (37:50):
to engage your cognitive brain.
Yep.
That's what's so
Val (37:53):
fascinating.
Oh, well, and with the EMDR,it's not talk therapy.
I mean, it really is gettingstuff unstuck in your brain.
Yeah.
And even art therapy, which Ihaven't studied.
But just the power.
It, it really is powerful.
So thank you for all the arttherapists who are out there
just helping people.
And I know you said that
Kat (38:14):
well, yeah, you don't have to be an art.
The, so even know what the fuckit is, but you could just play
around with some art supplies.
Uh, yes, Like I spent years nowmaking fat liberation art, where
I make beautiful imagery fromvery fat and diverse bodies and
it transformed
Val (38:28):
me.
Kat (38:28):
And, you know, I told that story at the top of the episode,
I know about feeling shame goingshopping, and I wouldn't have
that experience day cuz I reallyhave healed from some of those
things.
Yeah.
And a hundred percent, the, thereason is because of spending
this deep
Val (38:42):
dive and
Kat (38:43):
in, in believing that you know, all bodies are beautiful.
Right.
And that yeah.
Body diversity is,
Val (38:50):
natural duh.
Bodies are different.
Duh, get over
Kat (38:54):
a no brainer and
Val (38:55):
Open your eyes.
Kat (38:56):
I know, I know.
Val (38:59):
open your eyes.
Oh, I kinda just got aggressive.
What the, what is that?
Oh, cat.
This was good today.
I don't know.
Do we need to talk aboutpleasure or do we just end it?
I'm gonna cut this out if wewant to.
It's alright.
I just wanna ask you a question,KA.
Kat (39:13):
Yeah.
Well, I just, I just wanna saylike, it brings me pleasure.
This practice is
Val (39:17):
pleasure and
Kat (39:18):
and what's interesting is.
There is an immediate release tounlocking something.
It could be resistance, it couldbe any number of things, but on
the other side of engaging withit, curiously and maybe
creatively is fucking freedom.
Mm.
I don't know what is morepleasurable than freedom.
What the fuck's more pleasurablethan freedom.
(39:40):
Right?
Val (39:41):
Yes.
Yes.
yes
Kat (39:46):
So that's, what's bringing me pleasure.
Getting free, getting free,getting free.
Val (39:49):
You getting free.
Kat (39:50):
Okay.
Well, we love you guys.
We want you all to be as free
Val (39:52):
this Ooh.
Kat (39:53):
possible.
Thank you for being on thisjourney with us.
good.
It's so good.
Val (39:56):
It's so good.
It's so good.
It's so good.
You're so good.
I love you, cat.
Kat (40:02):
I love
Val (40:02):
you bell until next time.
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
(00:33):
Hello.
You're making the
Kat (00:37):
funniest face
Val (00:38):
I was like, should we do a staring=contest?
But that wouldn't be so fun on apodcast.
Kat (00:45):
not one of your better instincts.
Val (00:48):
let's see how long it takes for either of us to say anything
that we, I don't think we wouldbe good at that.
I'd wanna talk the I lovetalking to you.
I'm glad you're here.
It's a nice day.
We should tell the people I waswatering.
My fiddle leaf fig, which weknow are like
Kat (01:05):
though.
Kind of
Val (01:06):
fiddle leaf F
Kat (01:08):
It's a fiddle leaf.
Oh, cuz the leaf looks like afiddle.
Oh, I see that.
Sure.
Val (01:11):
I have no idea.
I beautiful plan.
It
Kat (01:14):
well, I'm looking at this beautiful plant and I know that
you're proud of yourself thatit's still alive, right?
Val (01:18):
right.
Because like we travel a lot.
It is a tree.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I also say it's the onlything that's, happy that we're
gone for a great length of time,because it only wants to be
watered like once every twoweeks or three weeks
Kat (01:30):
Oh,
Val (01:30):
something.
So I was watering it cuz it'skind of hot today and I have a
little sundress on and.
Kat (01:38):
was thanking you for the view.
Yeah.
So I can see you watering itfrom here.
And you were like, we're in thisshore dress and you were leaning
over and I was like, wow, PS gotincredible legs.
Val (01:49):
but you're like, Ooh, thanks for the view.
So I need to put one more cup ofwater instead of bending over.
I
Kat (01:56):
a knee.
Val (01:58):
down.
So was to not expose myself ina.
Kat (02:03):
it, wasn't like I was,
Val (02:06):
Well, I dunno.
I was like, I dunno how much I'mshowing it could just be my
calf.
I don't know.
Or maybe it's like my wholebutt.
I don't know
Kat (02:14):
my God.
If it was your whole butt, Iwould probably look awake.
Cause I'd be like, oh, that'sprobably not, you know, like,
That's that seems inappropriate,but like, you know, you're just
like showing a little extra leg.
I was like, fantastic legs.
Wonderful.
Look at these fantastic legstoday.
What good choices you have madelike in your ensemble?
(02:38):
It's wonderful.
Val (02:39):
Oh, that is so funny.
And then, your jumpsuit.
Yeah.
Your wardrobe stuff ishappening.
You're just like showing me thatyour, dress is falling down your
jumpsuit.
So we're just having a good oldtime over here.
It's so funny though.
Isn't it?
How we mix, deep, emotionaltransformational topics and a
(03:00):
booty shot.
I wasn't even a booty shot.
Kat (03:06):
Oh, that's so funny.
There's some upper thigh actionthere.
What is the back of your thighcalled?
Yeah.
Hamstrings.
Congratulations.
Val (03:13):
Yeah.
Yes.
Congratulations.
Kat (03:14):
to you.
Pick a ball has given you somefantastic hamstring.
Val (03:19):
I caught my pickleball, but yep.
Oh, KA.
Kat (03:21):
cats.
Hi.
Hi.
I'm like really excited.
I mean, the lead up for thisconversation, I'm telling
Val (03:28):
you
Kat (03:28):
I am pumped up today.
We're gonna talk about reframing
Val (03:38):
Yes.
Kat (03:38):
Yes.
Which is a very cool thing totalk about because in my
experience.
I feel like most people don'tknow that when we're resistant
to something, it's justinformation and often very
helpful things.
And so I want all human beingsto sort of like make peace with
the fact that we feel resistanceto stuff sometimes.
(03:58):
And that's totally fine andgood.
And we can talk to resistanceand be like, what are you trying
to tell me, motherfucker?
Val (04:06):
just like that.
Exactly like that.
Totally.
Yes.
Kat (04:09):
Ah, yeah.
So today's topic.
Yeah.
Reframing
Val (04:12):
reframing resistance.
Yeah.
Kat (04:13):
adjusting how we understand resistance.
We experience in our own
Val (04:17):
body what's our default?
How are we experiencing it?
Re resistance.
We don't like it.
Kat (04:22):
Yeah.
We try to reject it.
I think it falls under thecategory of like negative
emotion.
Mm-hmm right.
Mm-hmm or we can shame spiralbecause we feel it like the idea
that we just choose to getcurious about things that show
up for us versus judging whatshows up for us.
Mm-hmm very different.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (04:40):
So resistance, maybe not being just a roadblock or just
like a, an, well,
Kat (04:46):
Well, that's the other thing.
We live in a culture that tellsus to like railroad resistance.
We might be feeling right.
And that's not always
Val (04:53):
happening.
Kat (04:54):
Right.
So it depends on the context.
we don't know why any resistanceis showing up in your life.
Right.
Mm-hmm so the context is superimportant, but yeah, no matter
what the context.
our resistance is somethingimportant for us to recognize
and, and, and we recognize it bybeing in our body.
Right.
And then for us to likenegotiate and like understand
(05:15):
and bring some compassion to andsay, Hey, what am I learning?
Because I feel this resistance,you know, Yeah.
Yeah,
Val (05:21):
yeah.
You know, in therapy school wasI about to say that in therapy
school?
that was kind of one of thoseOoh aha moments I had where, you
know, where I learned aboutSeeing resistance as a really,
really helpful information.
Right.
Especially if, if you feel likea client is being resistant to
something you're trying to bringup right.
Not moralizing or judging thator seeing that as problematic,
(05:44):
also seeing that you're not theall knowing all powerful
therapists that the person,their body, their minds are
like, Nope.
And it's so fascinating.
So we're seeing resistance islike, Ooh.
That's information.
Kat (05:58):
Yeah.
Val (05:59):
I've been curious and when someone's Response.
Isn't what I thought it wasgonna be.
Or if I feel some resistance,I'm like, Ooh, tell me more why.
Kat (06:08):
And then there usually is yes.
Val (06:11):
A really, really valid and important reason why they're
feeling resistant about that.
And it's like, oh, I wouldn'thave known that.
I wouldn't have thought of that.
But your body is telling youlike me.
Nope.
Kat (06:27):
that's a weird noise.
Your body
Val (06:28):
is
Kat (06:29):
weird noises.
I, yeah.
when I'm navigatinginterpersonal relationships, I.
Have learned to like noticeresistance and then just welcome
it.
whether it's my own resistanceor maybe someone else's, cuz you
can kind of feel thatenergetically too when you're
just relating to people.
And then suddenly you can feellike a shift and like something
(06:49):
that was open is maybe closingand you're like, oh, Hey, let's
talk about that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
but without judgment.
we spent a lot of time talkinglast time about rejection,
sensitivity, dysphoria.
so it's really helpful if youreframe how you understand
resistance, you don't understandit as rejection.
Right.
You understand it as you know,information.
Yeah.
And so then you can just sort ofcheck in about that.
(07:11):
Yeah.
Val (07:12):
Well, you had a little bit, you wanna talk about your kind
of episode about resistance?
Kat (07:17):
not really.
I'm having some
Val (07:20):
are you having some resistance about the re.
Kat (07:24):
Okay.
Well, okay.
So you know, we, you hear it inour intro.
You and I both live with chronic
Val (07:29):
illness.
Mm-hmm
Kat (07:30):
and my experience of trying to navigate My own like healing
or wellness journey withintraditional medicine has been
disheartening, you knowmainstream medicine.
Doesn't really, it's notexcelling at trying to like deal
with chronic illness, right.
Because there's a lot of mysteryinvolved in chronic illness.
Val (07:48):
And can I just say too, I know we talked about this on a
prior episode, just a little,it's a complex, it's an
industrial complex.
Yeah.
Like we talk about the prisonindustrial complex and like, it
is a capitalistic we don't havesocialized medicine.
Right.
There's a lot of profit and itreally is like, you have a
(08:08):
problem.
We're trying to fix it.
Kat (08:11):
Yeah.
Val (08:11):
For really like, right.
As cheap as possible, also
Kat (08:15):
they can.
Val (08:15):
And I know we have amazing friends, people that are out
there in the healthcare systemthat have empathy and are
caring, but the system treatsyou like a problem.
Yeah.
And if it's not cut and dry,right.
Then your problem is a problemto them, right.
That they can't cure for you.
Kat (08:34):
Yeah.
Or they just are like, good luckwith that.
you know, like there's just noanswers and there's not.
I think there's not space orbandwidth for the amount of
collective curiosity around, youknow, holistic medicine.
Right.
And how to like, be with aperson who's having some really
complicated symptoms you know,to help them, you know, find
(08:54):
something that might, improvehow they're feeling and
Val (08:57):
Man.
we talked about also lessepisode about stress cycles.
Right.
And being able to like speak outand I do in the flight flatter
freeze.
I do the freeze
Kat (09:05):
response.
Yeah.
Val (09:07):
Yeah.
If someone is like disrespectingme or treating me badly at first
is the freeze what is thisreally happening?
I went to a doctor.
And I was IBS on top of my otherchronic stuff, and that's pretty
common like, and The care that Igot was so terrible that I was
(09:27):
like the first time I wrote aGoogle review.
And I just was like, if you wantcompassionate care, if you've
ever had any sort of eatingdisorder, please do not go to
this office.
You will not receive what youneed.
Thousands of people have readit.
Oh my I'm so proud of it.
And people are thumbs up in itand I'm just like, no, this
(09:47):
person was really, reallyterrible to me.
And just so dismissive, sodismissive.
So, Like I'm validating even,maybe some of the resistance you
had.
Yeah.
And when you, Deal with chronicstuff.
It is like, mm.
I, haven't gone to the doctorsabout my fibromyalgia in like
two decades, because unlessthere's something new, yeah.
(10:09):
I, I don't know what they coulddo for me.
I really don't.
You know, so I can understandthe resistance.
Kat (10:14):
Thank you.
Val (10:15):
To going
Kat (10:16):
right.
And so you know, I'm having someissues where I'm having sort of
new symptoms that are recurringmore frequently and they're
pretty debilitating.
And so again, it's a whole, likequality of life and I.
I've done all this work aroundlike resting when I need to, and
trying to listen to my body andlike being kind and gentle of my
body and accepting I myself as Iam and embracing some
(10:36):
limitations, all that's fine.
But then, you know, I'm likemore is heaped on top of, and
I'm like, I'm having a hard timefunctioning.
And so you were just so kind andjust very, like, it's very like
consistently coming back tolike, so what.
Some tests though, maybe.
Huh And so, yeah, and then Iactually do like my primary care
physician.
It's just you know, it's in theKaiser system.
(10:57):
I know that she has 1500patients it's too
Val (11:00):
that number blows my mind.
That number blows my mind
Kat (11:02):
Right.
Cause not everyone is evenaccessing care who has
insurance.
Right.
And so, but that's too much towork on.
You know, the, the doctor can'tspend the amount of time with me
that, you know, I need
Val (11:12):
Sure, sure.
Kat (11:13):
Sure.
And so anyway, yeah, so Iemailed her and then she ordered
some tests and I went and gotthe test done.
And so you know, I'll wait tosee an E email and then I try to
schedule an appointment formyself and it's weeks away,
stupid dumb thing unbeliev.
I know.
So anyway, and then
Val (11:26):
you were noticing that you had some resistance.
Yeah.
Kat (11:30):
Well, the resistance is because of the trauma of the
medical industrial complex,right?
Like it's everything you justsaid.
Yeah.
I've had all those experiencestoo.
And then it, it feels like a lotto welcome someone into a space
that's so tender and I wasnoticing that will.
The resistance comes from thereluctance to open up something
(11:52):
that's so tender, cuz it feelsscary to have new symptoms and
to feel like I can't functionlike this.
Right.
And so, I, you know, had madeplans with someone and had to go
on a bit of a drive to get tothem.
And then I ended up getting sickat their place and I felt so
terrible.
Like I felt really yucky and badand I wasn't in my own space.
(12:15):
And so it made fear show upwhere I'm like, God, can I not
go do fun things that are, youknow, a few hours away?
So it's just a thing where I've.
Already adapted my life quite abit, and I don't want my world
to get even smaller, you know?
And so that feels tender becausethere's grief and there's
unknowns.
And maybe I feel like I failedbecause
Val (12:36):
Jesus
Kat (12:37):
thought my like strategy was.
Pretty pretty amazing andrevolutionary I'm like, I'm
gonna be the mostself-compassion radical
acceptance person out there.
Like that's, I'm gonna regulatemy nervous system by being kind
to myself and resting as much asI need to.
So I have this deep practice,which I has changed my life.
(12:57):
Like I love it, but my body'sstill freaking out.
So.
Val (13:01):
Sure.
And I think the symptoms startedto show up when you were going
through a stressful yeah.
They're flaring up during astressful time, but then some of
the symptoms seemed maybe alittle bit more acute, okay,
maybe a doctor actually can helpwith this.
Obviously.
Tons of things get worse whenwe're more stressed, but it
seemed like maybe this issomething that needs to get
(13:23):
tested.
Right.
Kat (13:24):
So I'm like actively in that process, but yeah, like, so
when I get curious about theresistance, I found a lot of
spaces that are, you know, kindof tucked in pretty tight that
need some love and care andcompassion.
Right.
And even talking about it outloud, I can hear how it's still
tender.
Right.
And so.
That's what that resistance toldme is that there's some tender
(13:45):
that will probably take me sometime to sit with and be with and
slowly invite people into.
Mm.
And, you know, again, that's ourprerogative.
Like when we ask resistance,what are you there for?
It usually is preservation ofsome kind, right?
It's self protection.
Yeah.
Val (14:00):
Self-protection
Kat (14:01):
Yeah.
And so it's not a negativething.
The people that I agree to letinto this space that they have
to be, you know, well, vettedbecause I, cause I, I don't feel
safe, sharing it.
You know the details of it with,just anybody cuz it's tender and
it hurts and it feels it'sunresolved and it's not neat and
tidy.
And I would like it to be sure
Val (14:21):
Sure.
Well, it sounds like there'sfear of the unknown, right?
Is it hopelessness of, themedical con also, I think I made
up the term about it.
I don't know if I did make thatup.
I just wanna
Kat (14:29):
maybe I've heard it.
The medical industrial conflictsounds like a thing.
Yeah.
Val (14:32):
But some distrust or some like why even try well founded.
Yeah,
Kat (14:38):
exactly.
And so like, that's the thing,in order to get these tests run,
to see if there is somethingmaybe medical that could be
tweaked and addressed so
Val (14:45):
mm-hmm
Kat (14:45):
feel better.
Right.
That's the goal.
Yeah.
I have to then get myself kindof settled in enough that I'm
like, okay, I'm gonna take thisrisk again within a system that
I already know.
Has not served me well.
Right.
And again, even though I like myactual PCP, my primary care
physician she, herself is notproblematic in any particular
(15:06):
way.
we can't solve the puzzle veryeasily.
Right.
Mm-hmm and so,
Val (15:10):
and just even the energy of advocating for yourself, all of
it pushing.
Yes.
Right.
All of that is, is verydifficult and takes a lot of
energy and all of that.
Kat (15:20):
Yeah,
Val (15:22):
also a little bit different than resistance, but I talk
about anxiety and we haven'treally talked a ton about it yet
on the podcast, but I feel likeanxiety is helpful to a.
Kat (15:33):
point.
Val (15:34):
Kind of like, okay, should I be worried about this?
Like I remember being worriedabout you know, my dad died
young.
And so just checking on myself,getting, blood tests and all
that right.
Feeling resistance to that.
Actually I didn't feelresistance.
Well, I didn't recognize it.
I felt anxiety about my health.
Well, why, well, because youdon't have any data.
You haven't gotten it checked ina while.
(15:55):
Right.
And so just noticing that evenanxiety can be just that nudge
sometimes that's where it'shelpful, I think productive.
And then when it goes pastworry, we need to release it,
Anxiety can't or worry.
Can't really change my health.
But it can, it
Kat (16:13):
can, well, it can't improve your
Val (16:14):
health.
It can't improve.
It
Kat (16:15):
can, can
Val (16:16):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you for that.
Very
Kat (16:19):
I know.
I was like, I'm pretty sure
Val (16:22):
Right.
Worry can, oh geez.
I can, but it's not going tohelp my health.
Right.
But that kind of nudge, like, soif we're feeling anxious about
something like, is, is theanxiety nudging me to do
anything?
okay.
Yep.
Let me go schedule some tests.
Right.
So sometimes those feelingsactually have a real helpful
duty.
Kat (16:39):
Our culture asks us over and over again shut down
anything we perceive as negativeemotions.
So anxiety resistance.
Right.
So like really the, biggerumbrella here in this
conversation, it's not justresistance, but it's anything
that we understand as negativeemotion.
Like if we can move away fromthe black and white thinking or
the binary thinking of this isgood, this is bad.
(17:01):
This is negative.
This is positive.
Mm-hmm if we just acknowledge anemotion has shown up enough that
we're like, oh, that's a thing.
You know,
Val (17:09):
Yeah.
Kat (17:09):
of back when we were in Bible college, mm-hmm I lived in
a much smaller body then, but Istill had a slightly larger body
than I thought I was supposed tohave.
So we were on drama teams,remember?
Val (17:20):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
We
Kat (17:21):
had to go to the fucking store and like pick out the
clothes.
And so we're supposed to havelike the same uniform, I can't
buy the same pants at the rackwhere everyone else is buying
them.
I have to go to differentsection.
Right.
And so that didn't feel good atall.
Mm-hmm and yeah.
And then also the clothing thatwere picked out for this drama
team.
a baggy sweatshirt and khakipants.
(17:43):
Yeah.
And I'm like, that's not fuckinggonna look good on me.
And I remember the director,like noticing that I was
shutting down and then likeinsisting on me telling her what
the problem was and that justmade it, I felt worse, you know?
Oh, I mean, I didn't.
Skills to articulate it, but,you know, I think I got the
point across and then she sortof left it alone,.
(18:03):
But what I was feeling was likeintense shame and it was
shutting me down.
And so it could have been likethis fun all of us are like
having this bonding experience.
We're doing this thing and we'reexcited about the drama teams,
but I remember like the wholerest of the day felt bad to me.
Mm.
Yeah..
Well, I didn't know how to likeown it or let it move through.
All I knew how to do was shutsomething down, Shutting
Val (18:23):
down an emotion versus acknowledging it.
Yeah.
Validating it.
Mm-hmm being curious about beingcurious.
Right.
Kat (18:31):
Asking for support around.
Yeah.
I mean, I think all of us, Imean, listeners, I'm sure you
can relate to this.
I think all of us have storeswhere we can remember, oh, I
just shut down.
And I didn.
Address, whatever, again, thenegative a feeling was so yeah,
if we talk about negativeemotions, like sometimes it's
really hard to recognize shamewhen it shows up.
(18:52):
I feel like shame is one of themost sort of sneaky and
insidious painful
Val (18:56):
emotion.
Kat (18:57):
I mean, is it an emotion is an experience.
Is it just programming?
Is it just the story we'retelling ourselves around
something?
Val (19:03):
Yeah.
I think maybe it's, all the bothends.
Like I think it can be called anemotion.
I'm feeling shame.
I also think you have a bodilyresponse to it.
Mm
Kat (19:12):
Mm.
Yeah.
Val (19:13):
also, could it be a belief I love the very simple
definition that guilt is I didsomething bad.
Oops, my bad, I hurt yourfeelings, but shame is I'm bad,
I'm a fuck up.
I'm terrible.
I'm not worthy anymore so guiltis, I did a bad thing.
Shame is I'm bad.
Kat (19:29):
Yeah.
And I just, I wanna send likeyounger Catherine, a lot of
compassion because I felt like Iwas bad.
I was wrong because my body, Icouldn't clothe it in the same
part of the goddamn departmentstore as the other people that's
fucked up.
That's sad.
I'm sorry about that.
I'm sorry for me.
You know what I mean?
Yeah,
Val (19:47):
Oh, a hundred percent.
One time we were in Brazil and Ileft my bathing suit there and
he's like, oh, just go buy abikini right here.
And I, I had so much shame thatI didn't wanna say.
it won't fit me or it won't lookgood.
I mean, I couldn't believe weactually found one that fit, but
then I wore a shirt over it, cuzI was like, well, my stomach's
not flat.
Like, you know what I mean?
(20:08):
That was maybe seven years agoor eight years ago.
But that shame that.
And again, because it'sinternalized because we were
taught that we were bad becausewe couldn't keep our bodies at a
certain size that was healthyand acceptable or whatever.
Right.
That we were bad.
We must have done somethingwrong
Kat (20:28):
Yeah.
I'm just realizing I'mremembering more about the drama
team story.
Ooh.
So listen, I don't know if I'vebeen clear of listeners, Valerie
and I, we were both on dramateam.
We used to on weekends, go andtravel at churches and sometimes
our spring break.
Val (20:42):
and summer break
Kat (20:43):
too.
We would go and travel all thesechurches.
we would do skits.
Val (20:47):
What were the other things called?
Human videos.
Oh my gosh.
Kat (20:51):
God.
Oh, I, I feel, feels real.
Val (20:53):
If you were here for the deconstruction.
You did human videos in youryouth group,
Kat (20:59):
what's funny is human videos are like a fun thing to
do.
Now I think about TikTok.
it's that fun, creative energyof like, here's a song I'm gonna
MI it and I'm maybe gonna createdance
Val (21:09):
moves.
Mm-hmm mm-hmm
Kat (21:11):
similar.
So we were all really into it,but they were always Christian
songs.
We were trying to get peoplesaved.
Val (21:16):
But God's love like, that was, that was in there too.
It wasn't it
Kat (21:19):
it was, it was for being
Val (21:19):
cat.
It was for being so optimistic.
And in its own way.
Sure.
I think it was like an outreachof Hey God is here for you and
here's healing
Kat (21:30):
Yeah.
They weren't all bad.
But yeah, there was just, therewas still a lot of the toxic
Val (21:34):
stuff It's the both ACA
Kat (21:35):
So what I was remembering as we're having this
conversation, I had resistance.
It's flooding my memory of likeI had dread and resistance.
I did not wanna go and I didn'twanna go because I fucking knew
you
Val (21:47):
it was not
Kat (21:48):
like, it was not gonna be fun to try to go shopping with
other people, especially inother people in more normative
bodies than myself.
Right.
And I was gonna feel othered andthat would make me feel shame.
Val (21:58):
Yeah.
Kat (21:59):
So like resistance in that story was self-preservation.
I didn't wanna have that shameexperience.
Val (22:04):
Yeah.
Kat (22:05):
Mm-hmm So like in interpersonal relationships,
when suddenly someone isbehaving oddly, and you know,
you guys realize there's someresistance to that.
Again, being curious and notjudgemental about it, because we
don't know someone's wholestory.
Val (22:18):
Okay.
Before we go any further withresistance, should we cut to
commercials?
Yes, please.
Okay.
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Val (23:25):
All right.
Thank you.
We're back.
Yay.
Alright.
So today reframing resistance.
I think we have a coupleoptions.
When resistance shows up.
Kat (23:36):
Sure.
Yeah.
Val (23:37):
I think first we've talked a lot about centering yourself,
right?
Checking in with yourself, isthis something that I wanna do
so first maybe the resistance isshowing up because oh, I don't
want to do this.
And maybe giving yourselfpermission.
Giving yourself permission tosay, this does not sound good.
Right.
And giving yourself thepermission to center yourself.
Kat (23:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Val (24:00):
Then I think there's a deeper one, right?
What's showing up for me.
And what's deeper here.
What's the backstory.
what's the backstory, crack itopen.
There's something else going onhere.
And, and kind of just sittingwith that and asking those
questions to see like, Okay,well then where do we go from
(24:21):
here?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (24:23):
I have a practice
Val (24:24):
I Ooh,
Kat (24:24):
kind of intuited, you know, like I later found out that
there is something in therapyterms.
That's called internal familysystems.
Mm-hmm and so, but my ownpractice of it is when I
experience a particular emotion,it's quite strong.
Sometimes I will do the thingwhere I personify
Val (24:40):
it.
Mm.
And
Kat (24:41):
so.
So what I do is I I have createdinside my body just using my
imagination really decadentliving room.
Right.
Val (24:49):
It's
Kat (24:49):
is my internal spaces.
And so it's blankets and snacksand the comas couches and you
know it's wonderful.
Val (24:58):
It's a such great space.
Kat (24:59):
Also.
There's like a lot of windowsand there's like beautiful
Val (25:01):
views.
It's So fantastic.
Kat (25:02):
fantastic.
And so when there's somethinghappening that I, I need to have
a better understanding of, Iwill personify it.
So there's a door and I welcome.
Whatever's showing up for me.
They can come in the door.
And so it's really kind of coolbecause oftentimes it'll look,
you know, like kind of likepeople or whatever.
But they're quite distinctive.
Like, I mean, different ages ofCatherine has shown up,
Val (25:24):
Mm.
So different parts of yourself.
Kat (25:26):
All, I mean, it can be anything
Val (25:27):
though.
And that's the
Kat (25:27):
the neat thing, Like I may have shared this before, but
like one time, grief was showingup in such a big way.
Mm-hmm and I was reallysurprised that when I allowed
grief him, it didn't show up inany kind of.
Form that looked humanoid orlike an animal.
It was like this orb, this largemessy pulsating orb.
I remember feeling like anxiouscuz it was making mess in my
(25:49):
beautiful imagined space.
Val (25:51):
oh
Kat (25:51):
yeah.
And it reminded me of Pigpen,you know how from in the, in the
peanuts, like he's just making amess.
There's like a mess puddlearound him.
And it was this throbbing sortof orb thing and it was quite
large.
And so then I had invited ahuman that I love and feel safe
with, to sit with the, griefwith me because it was a really
overpowering emotion for me.
And so I was like, could youplease ask grief
Val (26:13):
questions?
Kat (26:14):
And they were like, they were just along for the ride.
Like, it was a little unusualfor them.
To do this, but they're like,okay, Catherine, whatever.
So they're like grief what youneed.
And it was interesting becauseit, I mean, I heard the answers
show up inside me before theyeven finished getting the
question out.
And then because I wasrecognizing my resistance, I had
resistance to the grief, evenbeing in this like
Val (26:35):
beautiful circum didn't make a
Kat (26:36):
I created.
Cause they're gonna make a.
Val (26:37):
mess.
Kat (26:38):
Right.
And so the answer was griefneeded permission to be here.
And then, so I got to say like,yes, grief you're allowed to be
here.
And then I got to adjust theresistance I was feeling.
So then we just spent a littletime in the orb.
What does it do?
Cracked open and inside of itwas this really young version of
me, like this little three yearold of me,
Val (26:59):
like yeah, like,
Kat (27:00):
went on the couch and like, got to be comforted by a
different aspect of
Val (27:04):
myself.
Kat (27:05):
And I'm telling you, like, all this is happening while like
big crying tears and all thesethings like feeling some big
things.
But what it communicated to mein hindsight is that again, we
can.
Old shit sometimes like thegrief, whatever was happening in
my present day life to sort ofkick it
Val (27:20):
loose.
Yeah.
Kat (27:21):
Yeah.
it was creating a pathway forsome very old
Val (27:24):
grief
Kat (27:25):
to surface and then be healed, right.
Because of care and compassion,you know, and it included that
story includes co-regulation ofanother human being
Val (27:34):
who's sure.
Kat (27:34):
safe and loving.
And so like, I think about howwe would use that say it's
resistance.
So you just.
You know, I do this with people,who I love in my life.
And I'm like, oh, you wanna goplay in the magic space?
And so some people will createan outdoor space, that makes you
just feel so good.
Val (27:49):
KA, so, so for maybe some of our listeners who don't have
such a free access to thisemotional, you know creativity.
Yeah.
I think what you're saying isjust close your eyes and think
of a, place that seems nice toyou.
Is that a good place to start?
Kat (28:06):
absolutely.
So like, just imagine a spacewhere you feel at home and
comfortable.
Yeah.
Okay.
And so that's the key is cuzyou're trying to get your
nervous system out of fight or
Val (28:15):
flight mm-hmm thing.
Kat (28:16):
And so, yeah, so you're picking a beautiful
Val (28:18):
space.
Kat (28:18):
Okay.
And then you just create a doorjust somewhere.
And then, so you welcome, yousay out loud or just in your
imagination, like, okay, I'mready to look at you resistance
and so welcome.
And then here's, what's reallycool.
Is that you'll see like how theyeven present themselves often is
all the information,
Val (28:38):
right?
Yeah.
It look like?
Ooh, I ask clients when there'slike a harsh, inner voice.
Yeah.
I ask well, what do you think itcould look like?
Or if you had to pick, topersonify it or whose voice does
that sound like?
Yeah.
And then it's like, oh, there'ssome answers.
Okay.
Now maybe we.
Seeing some of the origins ofit.
(28:59):
right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Kat (29:01):
it can really help us untangle, like when we're
getting curious about ourselves,especially when it comes to
negative emotions, we're gettingcurious, not judgemental, just
curious.
And so then suddenly there's somuch information that we can
like utilize in reallyproductive ways.
Mm-hmm right.
Or really healing ways.
Mm-hmm and then it just, I don'tknow, I'm fucking passionate
(29:22):
about it cuz it feels so cool toget free.
Yeah.
And this is just another.
Way to
Val (29:26):
get free.
Kat (29:27):
This is how we get free.
Another really helpful thing todo is to just sit and
Val (29:31):
write stream.
Right.
Kat (29:31):
of consciousness.
And then you could do the samekind of thing because yeah, we
can hack it however we want
Val (29:37):
Yeah.
Kat (29:38):
Right.
Figure out what's gonna work
Val (29:39):
for you.
Yeah.
Kat (29:40):
stream of consciousness can be really effective because you
also have some physical movementinvolved.
Mm.
And you're writing.
And what I notice when I dostream of consciousness is that
sometimes it's just the freedomto like write messy, write super
big, underline
Val (29:53):
something
Kat (29:53):
18 times, you know, to like, like harshly flip the page
over and scribble really big.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so what you're doing is.
in any creative way.
You can imagine you're creatingsome space for whatever the
emotion
Val (30:07):
is.
Mm-hmm
Kat (30:07):
to get as big as it needs to get.
Mm-hmm and that's the key we'relooking for creative ways to
like, be with mm-hmm a big, hard
Val (30:15):
emotion.
Yeah.
Kat (30:16):
Yeah.
And then it's allowed to sort ofmove through and often it will
give us really, really helpful
Val (30:21):
information.
Yeah.
Kat (30:22):
will help us navigate, you know, forward in some other
areas of our life.
You know, when I think about,folks out there who are maybe
listening, who this soundsappealing, but maybe
overwhelming if you feel likeit's not something you can
access on your own, that's whenyou're like, Hmm.
I may find a
Val (30:35):
therapist,
Kat (30:36):
you know, or like, you know, there's life coaches,
there's, you know, there'speople out there where this is
their vocation to come alongsideand to help.
So if you don't already haverelationships cultivated where
this is like the kind of shityou can talk
Val (30:47):
folks.
Kat (30:51):
then you know, you seek out, seek out care for folks
who.
can hold space for
Val (30:55):
it.
Kat (30:55):
Sure.
Yeah.
it's one of those things that Ithink most of us can grow in,
learning how to hold space for
Val (31:00):
yourself.
Mm-hmm
Kat (31:01):
and your own individual experiences in a compassionate
way.
Val (31:04):
Mm-hmm
Kat (31:05):
And so going back to the living room though, like again,
whatever your space that youfeel good in, but when I would
welcome.
An emotion in, I would make themas comfortable as I could.
I'd be like here, have a seat,have this fuzzy blanket, you
know?
Would you like a snack?
And that it was like, it waslike a imagined physical way to
offer compassion.
(31:26):
Right.
Val (31:27):
So, and make it feel welcome.
Because we talk about creatingenough space for an emotion to
sort of just be exist, movethrough you.
So it seems like that you weredoing it in a very
Kat (31:38):
creative
Val (31:38):
way.
of Like here
Kat (31:40):
and then here's compassion for you.
Right.
And so compassion looks like ablanket.
Val (31:44):
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
Kat (31:45):
that?
So how can I be soft with you?
How can I engage with you?
Emotion say you're allowed to behere and also like direct some
kindness at you.
And so literally in myimagination, I'm just making
them comfortable.
Isn't that interesting?
It's super
Val (31:59):
It is fun.
You know, another thing that II'd ask someone like when they
have resistance, how well do youfeel?
Oh,
Kat (32:06):
Oh, that's such a good one.
Val (32:07):
cuz I can hear like maybe a client sound kind of like a bra
teenager or even younger, Idon't wanna like, it's so
unfair, not that I'm sayingthose things are bad, but oh,
they feel younger when they'retalking about that thing.
And then you can do some of thiswork with your younger self.
Totally.
Kat (32:23):
When I think about this, it's a room full of beings at
this point, Different ages ofCatherine's.
Right.
all different ages.
Like a neat way to do some innerhealing.
This idea of
Val (32:33):
reparenting yourself?
Mm-hmm
Kat (32:35):
and it's really similar.
There's a lot of overlap betweenwhat I'm saying, just
self-compasion.
But one time I was chatting withsomeone and they had, some big
feelings they're trying toprocess and they needed comfort.
And so I was like, what if youcould imagine a 60 year old
version of yourself?
Could they come into the room?
Mm-hmm right.
And most of us, when we thinkabout that, this older version
(32:55):
is wiser, Mm-hmm and, you know,paternal, right.
mm-hmm if you add 20 years toyour age or whatever.
That was this really powerfulthing for this friend of mine,
suddenly they had access to amature, grounded, loving,
parental
Val (33:10):
self.
Mm mm isn't that interesting.
Mm-hmm
Kat (33:13):
and then when you're just going about your life and your
day, you still have access tothat kind of energy for
reparenting yourself foroffering yourself compassion for
the tender, for the hard, forthe trauma, for whatever is
showing
Val (33:26):
up Yeah.
Yeah.
Ooh.
I like the, older version, cuzmaybe sometimes if you're still
in it, right.
If you're still feeling realtender or I don't know what I'm
doing, like how can I, reparentmy younger self, right.
Accessing an older version thatdoes sound powerful.
Kat (33:42):
I saw something, maybe it was a meme or something, but it
was like, you were already theadult that the child you desk
really wanted.
Val (33:50):
Yes.
Isn't it?
yes, yes.
Yes.
Kat (33:53):
So when you ask these hard emotions, you know, like how old
are
Val (33:57):
you,
Kat (33:57):
But the, the point is, is that most of us still have
tender places.
Yeah.
We've locked down because ourculture wouldn't let us feel our
feelings at the
Val (34:06):
time.
Yeah.
Kat (34:06):
Right.
Val (34:07):
And in the eternal family system.
So they talk about the protectortype mm-hmm and, and this part
of you that is in a lot of timesfrom, some traumatic things, is
that resistance?
Absolutely.
And then, you get to bring theminto the present.
Yeah.
And say like, oh, thank you.
Yeah.
Like that was so wise.
It was so wise to never letanyone in to never take a chance
(34:31):
at vulnerability because of whatyou experienced or that you
weren't able to, you know,control the situation cuz you
were a kid and now welcomingthat person into the future that
version of yourself and go lookaround like, we're adults.
Now this whole apartment isours.
We call the shots.
We decide if we're in danger, wecould do something about it.
(34:51):
And that, protection, maybeisn't.
Need it anymore.
Yeah.
Hey, we can stand up forourselves now we can say no.
Yeah.
And so thanking it, realizingthat it was very helpful then.
Yeah.
And kind of just showing themaround
Kat (35:07):
yeah.
Val (35:07):
Yeah.
Kat (35:08):
And, okay, so I've experienced more than once.
Like something shows up and youinvite them in, you talk to'em
and then they'll transmutethemselves.
Mmm In your imagination, it'salmost like you're watching a
movie, but you're just engagingwith that energy.
And then you address it, youoffer it compassion and it will
just like fucking transformright before your eyes, before
your imagination really
Val (35:25):
before your imagination's eyes.
It's
Kat (35:25):
before your imagination eyes.
But it's interesting because itdoesn't feel like you're
consciously trying to imagineit.
It feels like you're just beingopen and you're allowing these
things to sort of move.
In your consciousness
Val (35:38):
moving like a
Kat (35:38):
almost like a picture like a movie
Val (35:40):
would
Kat (35:40):
mm-hmm it's really cool.
Like even again, that big, scarygrief, right.
That orb thing was throbbing.
And I was so afraid of it.
Like it transmuted, it crackedopen and it turned out to be
this younger version of myself.
Val (35:52):
Well, that's interesting because I'm trained in EMDR
therapy and there's differentphases of it and, sort of
discharge the distress from theold memories.
Yeah.
And then it's called futuretemplating where cuz you always
start with the present triggers,what are the present problems?
Yeah.
Right.
And then you look to the futureand oh how would you wanna deal
with this situation in thefuture?
(36:13):
And so then you create a movie.
And then yep.
And then we do the bilateralstimulation As a part of it, and
we keep doing it until they canrun the movie like they're doing
it successfully.
And then if there's anynegative, they get stuck, then
we, keep reprocessing.
But wow, it's really powerful.
So it's all kind of, right.
It's all kind of in the samerealm
Kat (36:34):
no wrong way.
Right?
Like, you know, that's the neatthing.
Val (36:36):
And you know, I am using more imagination for anxiety
too, because they're showingthat, the part of your brain
that deals with imagery andimagination can be more powerful
to get you unstuck.
Oh.
Than in the cognitive mm-hmmhundred percent.
Yeah.
And this is really powerful.
I know we need to do an, anepisode of, and anxiety, but
(36:57):
especially with people whocatastrophize worst case
scenario, I do suffer from that.
But your brain has already usedits imagination, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
anticipate the worst casescenario.
Sure.
So let's use our brain to thinkof best case scenario and then I
do like a, okay.
We'll live if it happens thisway.
Sure.
Right.
And the power to shift right.
(37:19):
Anxiety that way, instead ofwell, let's think of what are
the probabilities that yourhouse is gonna burn down.
Right.
all of that is really, really
Kat (37:26):
powerful.
Okay.
So like, we're still talking alittle bit about mental
exercises and this kind ofcreativity, but you just like
trying to get into a flow stateby making something or sewing
something, but somethingtactile, like any kind of
creative outlet.
It literally could be ending.
You could be like writing comedyand gonna perform it.
So, but something creative cansometimes move and dislodge some
(37:48):
emotions that can be stuck.
Val (37:49):
And you have to
Kat (37:50):
to engage your cognitive brain.
Yep.
That's what's so
Val (37:53):
fascinating.
Oh, well, and with the EMDR,it's not talk therapy.
I mean, it really is gettingstuff unstuck in your brain.
Yeah.
And even art therapy, which Ihaven't studied.
But just the power.
It, it really is powerful.
So thank you for all the arttherapists who are out there
just helping people.
And I know you said that
Kat (38:14):
well, yeah, you don't have to be an art.
The, so even know what the fuckit is, but you could just play
around with some art supplies.
Uh, yes, Like I spent years nowmaking fat liberation art, where
I make beautiful imagery fromvery fat and diverse bodies and
it transformed
Val (38:28):
me.
Kat (38:28):
And, you know, I told that story at the top of the episode,
I know about feeling shame goingshopping, and I wouldn't have
that experience day cuz I reallyhave healed from some of those
things.
Yeah.
And a hundred percent, the, thereason is because of spending
this deep
Val (38:42):
dive and
Kat (38:43):
in, in believing that you know, all bodies are beautiful.
Right.
And that yeah.
Body diversity is,
Val (38:50):
natural duh.
Bodies are different.
Duh, get over
Kat (38:54):
a no brainer and
Val (38:55):
Open your eyes.
Kat (38:56):
I know, I know.
Val (38:59):
open your eyes.
Oh, I kinda just got aggressive.
What the, what is that?
Oh, cat.
This was good today.
I don't know.
Do we need to talk aboutpleasure or do we just end it?
I'm gonna cut this out if wewant to.
It's alright.
I just wanna ask you a question,KA.
Kat (39:13):
Yeah.
Well, I just, I just wanna saylike, it brings me pleasure.
This practice is
Val (39:17):
pleasure and
Kat (39:18):
and what's interesting is.
There is an immediate release tounlocking something.
It could be resistance, it couldbe any number of things, but on
the other side of engaging withit, curiously and maybe
creatively is fucking freedom.
Mm.
I don't know what is morepleasurable than freedom.
What the fuck's more pleasurablethan freedom.
(39:40):
Right?
Val (39:41):
Yes.
Yes.
yes
Kat (39:46):
So that's, what's bringing me pleasure.
Getting free, getting free,getting free.
Val (39:49):
You getting free.
Kat (39:50):
Okay.
Well, we love you guys.
We want you all to be as free
Val (39:52):
this Ooh.
Kat (39:53):
possible.
Thank you for being on thisjourney with us.
good.
It's so good.
Val (39:56):
It's so good.
It's so good.
It's so good.
You're so good.
I love you, cat.
Kat (40:02):
I love
Val (40:02):
you bell until next time.
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