August 21, 2022 • 38 mins
Kat and Val spent decades steeped in religious "purity" culture, only to abandon that limiting and restrictive worldview for a much more expansive one. Welcome to sex positivity! Our hosts laugh heartily as they unpack delightful words like "kink" and "power play" and embrace the freedom to explore whatever lights us up.
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
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So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
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Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
RADICAL ECSTASY - Dossie Easton; Janet W. Hardy
How to Change Your Mind (Netflix Docuseries) Micheal Pollan
The Gottman Institute: Dreams Within Conflict
Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria
Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole by Susan Cain
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
Valerie Del Lugo today, we're talking about sex.
Val (00:39):
Let's talk about six, babe.
B
Kat (00:42):
let's talk about you and me.
No, no.
you right into.
That's so funny as if you didn'tsee it coming.
My God,
Val (00:51):
I didn't see it coming till I finished the light.
I was like, oh, this is comedygold.
I
Kat (00:56):
I mean, you.
Val (00:56):
it.
Kat (00:58):
Oh, my gosh
Val (00:59):
goes around here folks.
Kat (01:00):
Uhhuh, I've teased you bit in these weeks and weeks.
We've been together podcastingabout being do you self identify
as a prudish person?
Val (01:08):
I, I really feel like that's a bell curve.
that's really really that'sreally just dependent upon who's
around.
Kat (01:18):
Sure.
Oh yeah.
Contextual of course.
Contextual.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (01:21):
That's really funny dear listeners and maybe new friends
out
Kat (01:25):
there, do you just, Hey, new friends,
Val (01:28):
if the title of this episode pulled you in and you're
like, I don't even know thesepeople.
There was a question was if Iwas a prude or not, and now it's
probably true.
I feel like I wanna say no, butI probably say.
Kat (01:39):
yes,
Val (01:39):
I'm working on it, definitely working on it.
Sure.
And I, I blame purity culture.
We can talk about that later.
But you know, you teased me alsoabout like value, you know,
we're gonna talk.
Sex at some point in this and Ijust didn't wanna look at your
Kat (01:53):
eyes.
I know, I know.
No, that's my favorite thing todo is tell on you when we're
talking about something a littlere scared.
I'm like everybody's not makingeye contact.
Val (02:02):
yeah.
Yeah.
We'll see how we go today.
Cuz folks buckle up.
Kat (02:08):
a whole episode about sex.
I wanna pretend like I'm like soexcited.
So here for this, but also I'm alittle bit like how much do I
really wanna say out loud tostrangers on the
Val (02:19):
internet?
Yeah.
Cause you're a real andvulnerable bitch.
Kat (02:24):
I'm a real and vulnerable bitch.
Val (02:26):
I feel encouraged by that
Kat (02:28):
shot Oh okay.
Good.
Yeah,
Val (02:30):
you're thinking about things before you say them
Kat (02:34):
Holy shit.
This hilarious.
occasionally I think a bitbefore I
Val (02:39):
of course you do.
I just like to tease
Kat (02:41):
you.
I have a couple things on mynotes that I'm like, I may say
that I may not say
Val (02:46):
Yeah.
You reserve the right to changeyour
Kat (02:49):
Totally.
So I have landed in a placewhere identify.
Very much so as someone who issex positive.
we both have a shared backgroundof evangelical culture, which
includes purity culture, whichis not sex positive.
No,
Val (03:03):
Nope.
It's sex.
Absolutely not.
Kat (03:08):
right.
And so sex positivity is justlike having an open attitude, a
tolerant attitude, a progressiveattitude towards sex and
sexuality.
And, as long as consent isinvolved, like not yuck and
someone's Yu, right.
Val (03:22):
I'm really grossed out by that saying I just wanna let you
know, I really don't like that.
But that's just, how many timesis Val gonna prove
Kat (03:30):
it
Val (03:30):
she's approved?
You know, there's certain words.
Like some people really don'tlike the word moist.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (03:36):
You don't like the word.
Yum.
Why is that?
Val (03:38):
Someone's yum.
I don't know.
Kat (03:39):
Oh, poor Val.
That's hilarious.
Val (03:42):
I.
Kat (03:42):
know.
I thought that was like a reallyneutral way of saying something,
you know, like, oh, don't, don'tpoo poo, someone's curiosity or
someone's interest.
I love it.
Val (03:52):
I've seen memes recently, too, where it was like, if
somebody's putting theirChristmas decorations out now,
leave them alone.
maybe that's their only shred ofhappiness.
Like if it's not bothering you,let them do it.
Kat (04:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if it does bother you keepit yourself.
Yes.
So the larger idea is Hey, letpeople live and do their thing.
Right.
If we're not hurting anybody,like we can have a positive
attitude towards, it might notbe your deal, but someone else's
deal and that's fine
Val (04:16):
also.
Yeah.
Let's not shame it.
If it's consensual andeveryone's happy,
Kat (04:20):
right.
Why the fuck not Val.
Val (04:22):
The older I get and the more I deconstruct from
everything,
Kat (04:24):
it's like,
Val (04:25):
why not Who's it
Kat (04:27):
bothering?
Right
Val (04:28):
When I see things from people who are past ideologies,
posting things do you really, isit really that big of a deal?
Let people, whatever pronounthey wanna use, however they
wanna identify whoever
Kat (04:37):
whatever you want.
Val (04:37):
sex with.
Like, do you really think it'sthat big of a
Kat (04:40):
deal?
right What's
Val (04:41):
about like, God made all the galaxies.
Do you think he
Kat (04:43):
cares Totally.
Val (04:45):
No shame.
Kat (04:46):
Oh, good.
I like
Val (04:47):
this.
So I, I, I think I've exposedit.
Kat (04:49):
Yes.
You're congratulations.
Clap, clap, clap, clap club.
I'm giving you little snaps forbeing so positive.
Quite the journey.
We're gonna break for commercialand then we're gonna get into
it.
We're gonna deconstruct purityculture.
We're gonna talk about someother very fun things.
Val (05:03):
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Kat (05:21):
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Val (05:22):
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Exactly.
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Kat (05:33):
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Val (06:00):
We're back.
Kat (06:01):
That was super fun.
Val (06:03):
Thanks for supporting us.
Kat (06:04):
Yeah, we really appreciate that commercials.
Yeah Okay.
So again, we both came frompurity culture.
We spent years subjected to itand I mean, we were in ministry
and a campus pastor and I laterwent back to some of my students
and like apologized for how Ihad perpetuated
Val (06:19):
some of
Kat (06:20):
about we're not supposed to have sex before marriage.
Val (06:22):
What would you say is a working definition of purity
culture?
like, if someone was notsubjected to this,
Kat (06:29):
yeah.
Val (06:30):
what did it look like?
Kat (06:30):
Well yeah, it's like an understanding that like, you are
supposed to be avoiding sex atall costs just address modestly.
The onus on purity was way moreplaced on fem people than
Val (06:43):
Mm.
Kat (06:44):
people Right.
You were supposed to kind oflive like an asexual person
until you got married and onyour wedding night, you're
allowed to be a sexual personwithin a really tight container
of marriage and, you know,monogamy and all that It doesn't
make any sense with how a humanbeing actually is.
You can't turn it
Val (07:01):
on There you go.
Yeah, there you go.
Cat.
There you go.
Kat (07:04):
purity culture.
I wanna try to saycounterintuitive.
It it's just not how a humanworks.
Right.
So normal human development isin your young teens.
You begin like having sexualfeelings, impulses and desires.
Curiosity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
Val (07:20):
and all that shamed.
Kat (07:22):
I think, you know, the larger culture outside of
evangelical culture can be kindof puritanical as well.
Val (07:26):
Well, right.
The Puritans came here to findreligious solace.
Just very
Kat (07:31):
Rigid ideas around well, and then what else is it?
Is it that like a
Val (07:35):
Victorian era sensibility about
Kat (07:38):
sex or, yeah, well, like when did it show up, right.
Is what I'm trying to get to,like, when did these ideas about
sex and sexuality show upthroughout human history?
Right.
And it'd be interesting to learnabout like the more indigenous
peoples and their relationshipto sex and sexuality and sexual
development.
That's not something I know verymuch about, but I'm curious
Val (07:56):
I remember reading actually I think through grad school
about this tribe, I wanna say itwas somewhere in like Southeast
Asia where the young womanactually picked their sexual
partners.
They had their own little huts,little sleeping areas, and it
was encouraged that they hadmany partners and they were the
(08:17):
ones with the power I love tohear about that too, because,
well, I'm fascinated bycultures, but just that there
are different ways to
Kat (08:23):
that Yeah.
And to give sexual agency tolike a young woman is, is kind
of amazing.
And that's really different thanwhat we've all been exposed to
in like patriarchal culture.
Right.
Where, you know, it's a, a manwho has to initiate sex and, you
know, again, our ideas about sextend to be again, very
heteronormative mm-hmm right.
Even the ideas of like, Firstbase second base, you know,
(08:45):
again, these are like the endgoal being penis, vagina sex, as
if that's the only like actualsex mm-hmm whereas I've noticed
as a queer person now, like sexis a lot more expansive and it's
definition, right?
Any kind of sexual energy andsexual contact, all of it is
sex.
Right?
Val (09:02):
right.
I don't know how much I willtalk about sex in this, episode.
We've talked about that, but Iwill say.
I think purity culture is justso damaging because it goes
against one of the naturaldrives that we have a hunger
thirst sleep, right.
And a sexual drive that it'snatural.
(09:22):
And why shame it?
And fear, I think fear wasanother way to control people.
Right.
And also withholdinginformation.
God.
Kat (09:32):
We didn't know anything.
I was in college and we did notknow hardly anything about
Val (09:36):
sex.
Did you get the sex talk?
Kat (09:38):
No,
Val (09:38):
I didn't either I just heard keep your pants on.
I scoffed at that point too.
Kat (09:42):
I'm like, yeah,
Val (09:43):
gonna be the sex talk.
I mean, I was glad, right.
Every teenager was like, ah,help,
Kat (09:47):
so fear and repression.
When you repress your naturalcuriosities and desires and you
hold it in place with shame andfear, right.
It comes out in, in other
Val (09:58):
ways, Mm-hmm I
Kat (09:59):
the other thing, you know?
Yeah.
Or it just takes you a hell of along time to like, learn
something about
Val (10:03):
yourself.
And I think that it really doescreate this disconnection with
your body.
Absolutely.
Right.
So you're talking about you knowfem people are told that your
body is dangerous.
Mm-hmm like it can cause a fullgrown adult.
To be tempted, but all theplacement, even we're talking
about, what's happening in theworld now with abortion rights,
(10:24):
it's all about the, the personcarrying the baby.
Isn't it.
And not about the other personthat might have been involved,
that patriarchal thing of likeit's all on the, on the woman.
So the spaghetti straps, right.
It's always talking about likegirls getting sent home because
they're wearing spaghetti strapsso then you get this
internalized shame about yourbody and that you're just
supposed to be.
Kat (10:43):
mm-hmm
Val (10:44):
And that you're gonna cause someone else to sin.
Right.
Kat (10:46):
As opposed to teaching us all of us, not just, you know
fem people or masculine people,all of us need to learn how to
like, recognize what our urgesare and then open up
conversations about consent,about how to control yourself.
Like self-control right.
It's interesting.
Cuz like in Christian circlesthey talk about self control a
lot, but like.
What they have done with,sexuality is they're like, shut
(11:08):
it all the fuck down as opposedto just acknowledging yeah.
We're all sexual beings.
And like, in some places it'sappropriate to express that in
other places.
It's not, you know what I
Val (11:17):
Sure And talking about maybe the sex in, in a more
realistic way.
Sure.
And, and sure.
Right.
Like puberty happens to comewhen you're a teenager.
Right.
The brain is not fullyfunctional yet.
Right.
The brain is not thinking aheadtoward consequences as much.
Definitely feels invincible,right?
And you feel like, you know,everything, you don't need any
adults to tell you what to do.
(11:38):
So it is sort of in that sense,right?
Like maybe a time to startexperimenting with, with all
this.
Like, I get
Kat (11:45):
my choices as a parent, this is interesting again.
So I've been sex positive for along time.
Like before I even realized Iwas queer and before my long
term heterosexual marriageended, we were evangelical you
and I were, and then I marriedsomeone who Was a devout
Christian, but like mainlineChristianity was just a lot less
rigid about some of this stuff.
And so anyway, so it was prettysex positive.
(12:06):
So I've been talking to my kidsabout sex as soon as it was like
any possible
Val (12:10):
way to come up Sure.
It's part of life.
Kat (12:11):
Yeah, very normalized so much so that they're like the
information has been given tothem before they recognized any
sexual desire in themselves,which I think is really
empowering where they're notsuddenly like,
Val (12:25):
ah, they're not surprised by it, the shame what's
happening to my
Kat (12:29):
body.
right Where they've
Val (12:30):
they're prepared.
Kat (12:31):
And they've already been like, this is not an
embarrassing thing.
This is a normal thing.
You know?
And it's funny, like sometimeswe're watching, even Marvel
movies or something where like,you know, two characters are
kissing or making out orsomething like that.
And it used to be a funny jokewhere they didn't notice it for
a little while.
And then they started to beaware of it, you know, like, oh,
you guys don't like that part.
And then, you know, my older kidwas like, I don't, I don't mind
(12:52):
anymore.
You know, and so like my olderkid will check in with me
sometimes and, and just aboutpuberty stuff, you know?
And I'm like, oh my God.
But also my kids are like, mom,stop talking about sex, cuz
they're at that age where it's alittle bit, you know?
And so I don't know.
I'm just really.
Delighted that I get to have anup close view of what it's like
(13:12):
to watch a human being developwithout all of that shame and
all of that, restriction thatthey get to just kind of bloom
into who they are free of that.
Right.
Val (13:23):
Well, and what I was gonna say was I can understand the
concern.
Yeah, all these things areconverging at once where
teenagers, but I, I love yourapproach is like, well, let's
get them some informationbeforehand so that it's not
right.
I mean, even just the first timethat you have your period,
right?
Like if you knew it was coming,if you were prepared, but if not
like, right.
We've all seen the movie wherethe girl thinks that she's
(13:43):
dying.
Kat (13:43):
Of course
Val (13:45):
so how gentle, how.
compassionate.
Yeah.
I I'm just realizing, like togive kids information obviously
age appropriate, right.
Yeah.
Mostly
Kat (13:54):
I think so.
I might be an oversharesometimes.
but you know, what I've beengood about too I talk since they
were quite young, talk a lotabout like bodily autonomy and
consent stuff.
Right?
Yeah.
And so they really know what itmeans to be in charge of their
own body and their own space.
Val (14:13):
Can I just say that comes at a price?
And I think as parents, you haveto do the work, to have the,
repercussions of a child who hasbody autonomy, because you just
asked one of your children for ahug and you got denied
Kat (14:26):
I know, I know.
Like I, it's sort of this funny
Val (14:28):
and now it's a funny thing, but a lot of people, I think.
For whatever reasons couldn'thandle that.
Right.
I'm the mom give me a hug,
Kat (14:37):
too.
Right?
So again, if you zoom out whatpurity culture is, it's about
controlling people.
It's mostly about controllingfem people.
Mm-hmm which is just soinfuriating.
But once you zoom out enough andyou look at what the fuck is
going on, that's what patriarchyis.
It's this masculine person isgonna have control over
everybody else and fuck allthat.
Right.
When you look in the history,people have, moved like women's
(14:59):
liberation forward often there'slike overt sexuality.
As part of that, reclaiming your
Val (15:05):
Mm-hmm
Kat (15:05):
your interest in sex, your pleasure reclaiming your
pleasure as a means of like,power.
Isn't that powerful.
Isn't that interesting?
Val (15:16):
Yes.
Kat (15:16):
Okay.
So we talk about, yeah.
Sexual power is, is a huge partof my deconstruction too.
Right.
And it was interesting cuz I'monline on some like X
evangelical groups, like somesupport groups, you know?
And then I saw this meme onthere once.
So it was talking about thechurch kid to kinky person.
And I love that.
I was like, oh my God, me too.
(15:37):
Me too.
Right.
Well, and the, the idea is thatwhen you're impurity culture, it
like tries to, teach you thatyou should basically, like we
said, live asexually untilsuddenly you're married and then
boom.
Everything should just be likeno problem with very, very
little education.
Yeah.
Right.
And and you know, my own storyis that I was someone who didn't
(15:57):
have.
Sex with my husband before wegot married.
And so it was like, we werewaiting until we were married.
And then because of all theyears of shut it down, shut it
down, shut it down.
It really did take us a while tolike, have both of us be able
to, to be together in this waywithout our brain sort of being
like, oh, shut it down, shut itdown.
(16:18):
Right.
Val (16:18):
Yeah.
I, I think it's a mind fog totell people to keep it all the
way down and then like, oh yeah.
And now because you have pledgedmarriage right now, you're
supposed to just all of a suddenturn it on.
And I think there's a lot ofsexual dysfunction out there in
it Yeah, because of
Kat (16:36):
this.
Yeah.
But when you, okay, so when youleave like an oppressive
worldview that tries to say, youhave to stay within this narrow
margin.
Most of us who have left thatspace have left it because we
started to feel curious aboutthings that were outside.
What was
Val (16:52):
mm-hmm you
Kat (16:53):
and then you have to do this inner work of like, oh, I'm
recognizing some dissonance withwhat I've been told.
And what's happening is theinformation inside of me is
getting louder than all theprogramming.
And I have to like, follow whatfeels true on the inside.
And so it doesn't surprise methat a lot of other former
church kids would also want toexplore sexuality and all the
(17:14):
way to the fullness of it.
And so if you're gonna besomeone that's exploring
sexuality into the fullness ofit, you're probably gonna run
across like, you know, a funword called kink
Val (17:28):
you can talk to us about this.
I actually think that this isfascinating.
you are bringing the knowledgeto the table today about this,
cuz I really know very littleand I was actually really
interested even from just like apsychology humanity kind of
viewpoint, because I think thatthe mainstream idea of it and
even living in the bay area,like there's the Folsom street
fair and Oh, these people justlike to do wild things that,
(17:48):
that sound wild but actuallywhen you explained it and I
actually, even before UAT hadanother.
Talking to me about theirexploration in sort of the, the
submissive dominating cultureand just that it was maybe
deeper than I thought it
Kat (18:04):
this and and holistic it's really, really fascinating.
So I realized that my long termmarriage is over.
I realized that I'm queer.
And then in that, in that space,it was like the floodgates
opened and suddenly I wanted toexplore everything.
So, you know, like I talk aboutmy dating journey of like dating
as many queer people as I could.
And I was exploring like nonmonogamy or polyamory, but also
(18:28):
in that space, I was.
Interacting with people thatwere like actively involved in
the kink community or theleather community.
Also the known as the BDSMcommunity mm-hmm so it's
interesting of my understanding.
I'm still a novice in thesespaces.
And I wouldn't say it's like abig part of my identity, but
it's something that I gavemyself permission to be curious
about without shame.
(18:49):
right?
Yeah.
So like, that's the thing.
Once I moved away from all thoserepressive systems, I was like,
I'm allowed to be curious aboutanything that just looks shiny
to me, you know?
And that was like probably oneof the.
The most powerful transitions ofmy life to no longer feel any
shame about anything I wascurious
Val (19:08):
about Mm
Kat (19:09):
Yeah.
It was a really profound shiftin my life that I could just be
allowed to be like, oh, that'sinteresting.
I'm gonna read everything I canabout that, you know?
So when I was dating people, oneof the first queer people I
dated, I've mentioned thisbefore they were a sex educator.
And so they would do likeworkshops.
And so they'd had onlineworkshops cuz the pandemic and
(19:29):
so it was like intro to BDSM.
And so, you know, again, likemainstream culture, we have
these scary ideas about it cuzwe don't understand it.
Right.
But it's a community of peoplewhere they're just.
I'm curious about this, or I'minterested in like different
sensations and people in thekink community are really
careful to say, Hey, everythingabout kink is not sex.
(19:51):
And that's really, reallyimportant because what we're
doing is we're creating safespaces to explore.
Deepest desires mm-hmm right.
When we think about BDSM, youknow, we understand that there's
an element of, of sensation andor pain.
Right.
And so when you, you're kind ofplaying in that space, you're.
(20:15):
Allowing your body to reframeyour understanding of what pain
might be.
you're allowing yourself to haveexperiences that in a safe
context can be like tremendouslycathartic mm-hmm And again,
maybe not ever end up in like asexual act.
Right.
But just a space where you'relike, I want to feel something,
you know,
Val (20:36):
and from what I understand control as well, having a
different idea about control orwho you give control to or
Kat (20:44):
right.
Val (20:45):
What you're in control of.
Kat (20:46):
yeah.
So zooming out a bit like thekink space.
And again, I'm not saying that Iknow everything, I'm just
sharing some of my, like myknowledge and my own curiosities
here.
But, I read this really coolbook.
I'm still working my way throughit, but it's called radical
ecstasy.
And then there's another bookthat is really interesting to
me.
It's called ethical slut andit's creating.
Language and a culture of likeconsent and self awareness.
(21:10):
And that's what else is really,really cool.
Like I think that.
this space where you havepermission to explore whatever
your curiosity is, there's lotsof people who have done lots and
lots of work to like trainpeople about what does consent
mean?
What does creating like a scenemean?
You have to know yourself prettywell to
Val (21:30):
to answer all those questions
Kat (21:31):
Yeah.
And it's, again, it's one ofthose things that in mainstream
culture, people are not doingRight, because you're not self
aware or you are just sort oflike, oh, this person likes me
and oh, I'm kind of a peoplepleaser and oh, I'm gonna like,
you know, kind of move down thatpath.
Right.
There's all these other kinds ofways that people have sexual
experiences, but like in thesespaces, it's very intentional,
(21:54):
which I think is so beautiful.
Val (21:56):
When you're talking, I'm like, yeah, because purity
culture, you have to play hardto get, or no doesn't really
mean, no, we do have a verystrong, What's the opposite of
consent culture, right.
Even to the point where I'vestarted asking people like, oh,
Hey, you know, I'm going throughsomething you, have the space to
hear this?
Or even like can I ask thisquestion?
Not even assuming that like Ican, I'm not.
(22:18):
Demanding this information fromsomeone, right.
Just that consent.
So I said this before in thepodcast, when I was listening to
a lot of your dating storiesthat you were checking in with
people that you were meeting upwith, and there was so much talk
ahead of time, which seems to goagainst this mainstream idea we
have about this spontaneous sexthat just happens.
(22:42):
And doesn't seem like a lot ofconsent is happening
Kat (22:45):
right.
And you know, there's somediscussion about that.
Like, I can imagine a scenariowhere like, someone doesn't
wanna do all those things, butthey're already in a a
relationship with each other.
Right.
And so maybe you don't have tobe as hyper vigilant about it,
but.
But again with my past traumaexperiences, I'm really
attracted to a space that issuper communicative, super
consent forward.
(23:06):
Mm-hmm you check in about everysingle possible thing you can
think of to check in.
Right.
Because what you're trying to dois create a positive experience
for you and the other peoplethat you're engaging with, you
know So, you know, like kink isas diverse as all of humanity is
diverse.
Right?
And I would say you zoom outmore like sexuality is as
diverse as all of humanity isdiverse.
Mm-hmm And so when you giveyourself permission to live
(23:29):
outside of shame, and you'rejust like, Hey, Oh, my God, I'm
a sexual being.
Right.
and then what I've noticed isthat I think in, in sexual
spaces, there's a growingmovement of like sexual magic
and sex healing, which I thinkis profound and amazing and
wonderful.
Val (23:47):
Can you imagine our 21 year old selves, if we told them that
we were gonna be talking aboutsexual healing?
Kat (23:52):
Well,
Val (23:53):
outside of purity culture I
Kat (23:54):
know, I know.
Val (23:56):
I do believe that every positive experience we have with
another human being can becorrective, can be healing
right.
For the trauma we've had.
And just like those things youshare they're very intimate and
can be very healing or magical.
Right.
And I mean, why not?
Like.
People talk about other kinds oforgasms, like, like joking
around like like a food gasmright.
(24:18):
Or we, this is so, oh my gosh.
It's so cheesy.
Kat (24:22):
Well, come on.
I
Val (24:22):
Bible college.
we used to talk about a harmAgam where like the harmonizing
of people's voices.
I mean, I still stand by this.
Sure.
But just that feeling that likeeuphoria, it is it's this
transformative feeling orexperience.
Right.
Kat (24:36):
Yeah So.
and it feels spiritual.
It does And transformative, itfeels like metaphysical
sometimes.
Like it's an elevation
Val (24:43):
an elevation.
Well that's a good
Kat (24:44):
word, right?
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
Okay.
So we can experience that in allkinds of context.
Right.
So it's funny that yeah, gasm onthe end of other words.
Sure, sure.
Yeah.
So the harm Agam is that whatyou said?
Mm-hmm There's so many ways weexperience this is what I've
discovered.
Right?
So I still experience stuff likethat.
In meditation.
We had experiences like thatwhen we were in charismatic
spaces, during an altar call,right.
(25:06):
Church where people are likepraying for each other.
We used to have experienceswhere someone would like lay
hands on you and you get likeslain in this.
Spirit mm-hmm like, that was avery heightened metaphysical
experience for me quite often.
Like you can have visions, youcan have prophecies, like all
those things make you feelconnected to something much
larger than just yourself.
Right I think
Val (25:24):
that's part of the.
Kat (25:26):
Of course it
Val (25:27):
Yes The the people that were the most into that stuff
Yes yes,
Kat (25:32):
yes, And so that's what I've noticed is.
I've had these sort ofexperiences, in meditation or on
retreats sometimes.
But then when I started havingsex with queer people, I was
noticing that I could get into ahead space that felt.
Like these other experiences youknow one of the things in a
kinky dynamic, you can havelike, this fun playing with
(25:52):
power, people are using termslike top or bottom.
And so it doesn't even reallyhave to be about like sexual
positions, but it's just like,who is holding this space and
they're like the top they'reholding the, power position.
And then the other person it'sreally interesting.
It gives you permission torelinquish control and just
like, And then to be having likea really charged sexual
(26:16):
experience while also likeletting go of everything can
take you into what's known assubspace and it's like a
euphoria.
It's a really.
Brilliant.
Cool.
Kind of euphoria.
And in some people's play thisisn't my personal experience.
I haven't explored this verymuch, but in some people's play,
you can get a kind of euphoriafrom intense sensation.
(26:38):
Right.
So that would be like peoplewanting to use you know, like.
Whips and things like that.
Like I can hear myself be alittle shy about it still.
that's not super where I haveplayed yet, but again, it's
just, it's like to allow yourbody to have these sort of
experiences that just sort ofheighten everything.
The, the human body can do.
Cool.
Amazing
Val (26:56):
shit.
Why do people do a polar plunge?
Kat (26:58):
exactly right.
Yeah.
When we push ourselves to anykind of extreme what our
physical bodies will do as aresult, equal a state of
euphoria can catapult us into asensation of like, wow, every
it's much larger than just me.
Mm-hmm And somehow you'reconnected to everything in the
cosmos, because, of somethingthat you've.
(27:20):
you've done in your body, youknow, in, even like in some
indigenous communities, youknow, we know about like sweat,
is it sweat, lodge?
Mm-hmm yeah, like they, they dolike an intense ceremony and
they allow their body toexperience some amount of what
we would call suffering.
Mm-hmm in order to overcome itin order to get to the other
side of it.
And it's really beautiful.
Again, in kink spaces peoplewill agree on the kinds of
(27:42):
exchange that they want to have.
And then lot of emphasis onafter.
And that's so beautiful cuz youjust had really big, sometimes
cathartic experience.
And then the people that you'reengaging with everyone is
informed like, well, what do youneed for aftercare?
What kind of things You know?
And some people might say, I'mprobably gonna need to be like.
(28:03):
Tucked in and lay like in a bedby myself for a little while.
Some people are like, oh, I'mgonna want to be held.
And like softly petted, I'mgonna need this kind of music.
I'm gonna need this amount ofquiet.
Right?
Like you have to know yourself.
Right.
And you get to
Val (28:17):
just amaz I'm just amazed.
I'm just amazed.
Right.
Because it's just like, that'samazing.
Yeah.
Like just in general forcommunications, for
relationships.
Yeah.
Right.
Thinking about.
About even just what you'll needafter the act, not just the act.
And I think that's what maybemainstream culture says about
sex anyway.
Right.
It's all about that.
Act the climax and then like,whatever.
(28:37):
Right?
The joke is that someone's gonnafall asleep It's beautiful.
The care and the thought and theintentionality.
Yeah.
In.
Kat (28:45):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And again, sometimes this isincluding what we would think of
as sex acts and sometimes it'snot.
But ultimately what the, kinkcommunity or the leather
community is, creating our, oursafe places to kind of explore,
you know?
And then it's interestingbecause as I've done a lot of
work around radical self.
Acceptance.
(29:06):
I look back on our time inevangelical culture and I
realize I was constantly tryingto repent away my own shadow
side to strive and strive andstrive to be so.
Fucking good to honor God to belike, Jesus was to be perfect.
Right?
You've got perfectionism andlike the good, bad binary and
(29:26):
all these things.
And then as I moved towardsradical self acceptance, I
started to make peace with myown shadow side.
Right.
And it, it might be like adarker impulse, but it also is
just.
I can fail at things.
I can be bad at stuff.
My house can be perpetuallymessy and I'm not somehow
morally inept because of that.
(29:46):
Right.
Mm-hmm and then again, in myADHD diagnosis, that helped me
so much to be like, oh, this isjust a cool part of me that has
some strengths, but it has somelike weaker areas too.
But see, I am done.
trying to eradicate that fuckingshit.
Right.
And so I've noticed in my likeown sexual awakening, I get to
do shadow work.
I get to integrate all of me.
(30:09):
I don't have to be a good
Val (30:11):
Mm-hmm
Kat (30:12):
Mm-hmm fuck that.
Right.
But also I have a praise king,so praise me, praise me.
Praise me.
cuz I love that shit.
Val (30:20):
is that that's a thing.
Is that a
Kat (30:21):
It's a thing.
Everything's a thing, Val.
Val (30:23):
I know But did you make that up or someone else
Kat (30:25):
did not make that up.
Val (30:26):
up Okay Yeah Well, I could see that Sure, sure.
Yeah.
That's
Kat (30:31):
funny.
I know Yeah but it's great spacetoo.
Like.
I think that I have a deepcommitment at this point to be
all the way me, right.
To find every avenue ofself-expression that exists
because there's something in methat just wants.
Well, I think it is it's theyears of living in a.
Like a contained space thatallowed little freedom and
(30:54):
little self-expression and thento like kind of break out of it.
And then suddenly the wholecosmos is open to
Val (31:02):
us.
Mm
Kat (31:03):
And so that, that kind of freedom and exploration is, is
enthralling.
You know?
Yeah.
And you know, it's not to saythat I've done things perfectly
or like that I'm perfectly outthere in, in the dating world
we're still learning and makingmistakes all the time.
All of us as humans, you knowwhat I mean?
Yeah.
And so that's the other thingtoo, is I've noticed in some of
these circles, there's like abeautiful Space for repair too,
(31:27):
you know, and I just thinkthat's amazing.
And again, I think it's amazingthat like all of these skills
are being taught and practicedin a context that our mainstream
culture poo poos and makes funof as though these are deviance.
And yet these are the mostpresent.
Groups of people I've everencountered.
Val (31:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (31:47):
And there's still, I mean, again, and everyone's still
human, like there's not theexpectation of perfectionism and
I, I think that that's fuckingbeautiful too.
Val (31:55):
Well, I mean, let's talk about if you wanna be authentic.
And vulnerable your goal can'tbe perfection, right?
Mm-hmm you have to know thatyou're messy and you're
imperfect and leaving spacewhere I think in the culture
that we grew up in.
There was no room for
Kat (32:11):
you were gonna go to hell, fuck it.
God damn it.
If you make too many mistakesand then you die, you're gonna
go to hell But
Val (32:17):
even just like the shame that would come or the
separation or lose your job ifyou had any sexual mistakes.
Right.
I'm just saying that's the verypresent ones like, oh, you're
gonna lose all your friends, allyour community, because cuz of
that
Kat (32:32):
yeah.
I mean, I used to have a lot ofreally close friends from Bible
college.
I have one or two friends leftbecause I have changed so much,
but like, I feel like I've comehome to myself, the people who I
connect with now, and I meet nowget to know like the most
authentic Catherine there's everbeen.
Right.
And that feels really good, butit is hard that like that
(32:53):
worldview wouldn't.
Me maintain relationship with alot of people.
they don't have space in theirworldview for me to be gay for
me to be non monogamous.
Sure.
You know, for me to be all thesethings, cuz we were fucking
taught really very clearly.
This is the devil, right?
This is sin.
I don't believe in sin at all.
Yeah, fuck that.
(33:14):
No, because again, I love theidea of shadow work and like the
imagery of the yang and the yangand that beautiful symbol.
Right.
I realized that I spent all ofmy life trying to eradicate all
the shadow.
Right.
We were sort of taught
Val (33:26):
that in our culture.
Yeah.
Kat (33:27):
and then you cannot possibly center yourself if
you're trying to live justwholly in the light, cuz you're
repressing and repressing andrepressing.
Yeah.
The dark.
That just is a part of
Val (33:38):
It's just there
Kat (33:39):
Yeah.
And so like when you allow forboth and you engage in like
self-acceptance, then you startto come into your own and then
suddenly learning how to centeryourself.
Isn't so fucking but if you'reonly light and only love you
can't quite find your center.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I lived that way for so many,
Val (33:59):
Mm.
Kat (34:01):
Yeah.
And in some ways I was kind ofgood at it.
Right.
It's really But eventually mybody was like, let's try
Val (34:09):
isn't Cause it takes a lot of energy repress.
to ignore.
Yeah.
And numb.
Kat (34:16):
Right.
I feel so happy to be like,again, these, parts of me are
not my whole identity, but itfeels really good to be able to
explore and, to like really nothave shame a part of it.
You know, it feels really goodto be raising my kids where
okay.
This story.
Oh my gosh.
Both of my kids will likehappily watch plenty of YouTube
(34:36):
and I am okay with that.
I'm comfortable with them.
Following their own curiosity.
And my older kid is 12 and youknow, is in middle school and is
coming home with some, words andthings that I can tell his kid
is like trying them out, youknow?
Wow.
And so I can't remember at onepoint we're like in the car and
they said something likesomething like you're a ho.
(34:58):
And I was like, do you know whatthat means?
And they're like I, think itmeans you couldn't be that
anyway.
I, think it means it's someonethat like and they didn't really
know what it was.
They, they knew it was a littlebit derogatory.
They didn't know why.
Right.
And so I explained, yeah, peopleuse that to shame people who
have they go on lots of datesand they have lots of partners
and then he was like, oh, thatcouldn't be you.
And I was like, actually yes, Ido go on lots of dates.
(35:19):
Right.
And so they.
They were like, this is newinformation you know, cuz I, I
don't have my kids all the time.
They get to go yeah.
Be with their great parent,their dad So I've had a lot of
freedom to date, you know?
It was really, really amazing tobe
Val (35:33):
he's like my mom is a
Kat (35:34):
okay you would be so surprised, but it was such a
happy day for me.
Yeah.
To be like, yeah, your mom goeson dates with lots of people.
Right.
As many as I can get.
Getting to raise my children.
In a context that is, you know,extremely sex positive, and
there's no morality around howmuch experience someone may or
may not have.
(35:55):
You know, also there's plenty ofspace for people to not be
sexual.
You know, like asexuality is areal valid way to live your
life.
You don't have to be as curiousas I am about all these things,
you get to, again, All I wantfor all of us is to just know
ourselves, to be kind toourselves and then to have the
freedom to follow the curiosity.
Right.
Yeah.
And then it doesn't happeninstantaneously.
(36:16):
Yeah.
Like once I started to realize,I want, you know, these kinds of
relationships in my life, theydidn't show up, then it manifest
immediately, but they'remanifesting, they're showing up
and that feels really, reallygood.
We
Val (36:27):
GA thanks for leading this conversation.
I was like, oh, you wanna talkabout sex?
Yeah.
You're in charge today.
Yeah, I like this.
I appreciate the conversationbecause.
I just think it's great for usto be talking more about sex.
Like we're having it.
We're not having it it's a partof life.
It's a part of who we all are.
Like you said to varying degreesand it's all okay.
Kat (36:47):
Yeah.
I think sex is a really fun wayto explore, you know, getting
for me.
It's been really, really fun forme.
I'm having a fucking great time.
Val (36:58):
Well, you know what you know, going against my
stereotype or my type castinghere as a therapist, one day I
was like, you gotta put your biggirl panties on, you gotta talk
about sex.
Like, is it awkward?
Not, you know, sometimes I'lljust joke about, like, I don't
know if you wanna talk about sexwith your therapist, or this is,
you know, weird, but like,Definitely.
You're talking about pleasure.
I talk about orgasms and liketotally.
We've talked about creativitycoming through orgasm and just
(37:22):
that, that is a part of anyother kind of release or stress
release or
Kat (37:26):
just like
Val (37:27):
self-care self-care
Kat (37:28):
Like regular masturbation as part of normal
Val (37:30):
self care.
Selfcare yeah.
Yes exactly.
So see, are you proud of me for
Kat (37:35):
yeah.
Are you, practicing what youpreach?
That's what I wanna know.
Val
Val (37:39):
Oh,
Kat (37:40):
the time.
Val (37:40):
am.
Kat (37:44):
I love you so much.
I can see that.
You're not gonna answer rightquestion.
I love you.
Good job, Val, you made a lot of
Val (37:49):
job I made, it through
Kat (37:50):
there You did.
We did it.
Val (37:52):
And I like to joke about it, but I'm so glad we're having
these conversations.
It's so good.
Yay.
Thanks.
Thanks friends and listeners.
I forget coming on
Kat (38:01):
this journey with bye
Val (38:02):
right.
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
Valerie Del Lugo today, we're talking about sex.
Val (00:39):
Let's talk about six, babe.
B
Kat (00:42):
let's talk about you and me.
No, no.
you right into.
That's so funny as if you didn'tsee it coming.
My God,
Val (00:51):
I didn't see it coming till I finished the light.
I was like, oh, this is comedygold.
I
Kat (00:56):
I mean, you.
Val (00:56):
it.
Kat (00:58):
Oh, my gosh
Val (00:59):
goes around here folks.
Kat (01:00):
Uhhuh, I've teased you bit in these weeks and weeks.
We've been together podcastingabout being do you self identify
as a prudish person?
Val (01:08):
I, I really feel like that's a bell curve.
that's really really that'sreally just dependent upon who's
around.
Kat (01:18):
Sure.
Oh yeah.
Contextual of course.
Contextual.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Val (01:21):
That's really funny dear listeners and maybe new friends
out
Kat (01:25):
there, do you just, Hey, new friends,
Val (01:28):
if the title of this episode pulled you in and you're
like, I don't even know thesepeople.
There was a question was if Iwas a prude or not, and now it's
probably true.
I feel like I wanna say no, butI probably say.
Kat (01:39):
yes,
Val (01:39):
I'm working on it, definitely working on it.
Sure.
And I, I blame purity culture.
We can talk about that later.
But you know, you teased me alsoabout like value, you know,
we're gonna talk.
Sex at some point in this and Ijust didn't wanna look at your
Kat (01:53):
eyes.
I know, I know.
No, that's my favorite thing todo is tell on you when we're
talking about something a littlere scared.
I'm like everybody's not makingeye contact.
Val (02:02):
yeah.
Yeah.
We'll see how we go today.
Cuz folks buckle up.
Kat (02:08):
a whole episode about sex.
I wanna pretend like I'm like soexcited.
So here for this, but also I'm alittle bit like how much do I
really wanna say out loud tostrangers on the
Val (02:19):
internet?
Yeah.
Cause you're a real andvulnerable bitch.
Kat (02:24):
I'm a real and vulnerable bitch.
Val (02:26):
I feel encouraged by that
Kat (02:28):
shot Oh okay.
Good.
Yeah,
Val (02:30):
you're thinking about things before you say them
Kat (02:34):
Holy shit.
This hilarious.
occasionally I think a bitbefore I
Val (02:39):
of course you do.
I just like to tease
Kat (02:41):
you.
I have a couple things on mynotes that I'm like, I may say
that I may not say
Val (02:46):
Yeah.
You reserve the right to changeyour
Kat (02:49):
Totally.
So I have landed in a placewhere identify.
Very much so as someone who issex positive.
we both have a shared backgroundof evangelical culture, which
includes purity culture, whichis not sex positive.
No,
Val (03:03):
Nope.
It's sex.
Absolutely not.
Kat (03:08):
right.
And so sex positivity is justlike having an open attitude, a
tolerant attitude, a progressiveattitude towards sex and
sexuality.
And, as long as consent isinvolved, like not yuck and
someone's Yu, right.
Val (03:22):
I'm really grossed out by that saying I just wanna let you
know, I really don't like that.
But that's just, how many timesis Val gonna prove
Kat (03:30):
it
Val (03:30):
she's approved?
You know, there's certain words.
Like some people really don'tlike the word moist.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (03:36):
You don't like the word.
Yum.
Why is that?
Val (03:38):
Someone's yum.
I don't know.
Kat (03:39):
Oh, poor Val.
That's hilarious.
Val (03:42):
I.
Kat (03:42):
know.
I thought that was like a reallyneutral way of saying something,
you know, like, oh, don't, don'tpoo poo, someone's curiosity or
someone's interest.
I love it.
Val (03:52):
I've seen memes recently, too, where it was like, if
somebody's putting theirChristmas decorations out now,
leave them alone.
maybe that's their only shred ofhappiness.
Like if it's not bothering you,let them do it.
Kat (04:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if it does bother you keepit yourself.
Yes.
So the larger idea is Hey, letpeople live and do their thing.
Right.
If we're not hurting anybody,like we can have a positive
attitude towards, it might notbe your deal, but someone else's
deal and that's fine
Val (04:16):
also.
Yeah.
Let's not shame it.
If it's consensual andeveryone's happy,
Kat (04:20):
right.
Why the fuck not Val.
Val (04:22):
The older I get and the more I deconstruct from
everything,
Kat (04:24):
it's like,
Val (04:25):
why not Who's it
Kat (04:27):
bothering?
Right
Val (04:28):
When I see things from people who are past ideologies,
posting things do you really, isit really that big of a deal?
Let people, whatever pronounthey wanna use, however they
wanna identify whoever
Kat (04:37):
whatever you want.
Val (04:37):
sex with.
Like, do you really think it'sthat big of a
Kat (04:40):
deal?
right What's
Val (04:41):
about like, God made all the galaxies.
Do you think he
Kat (04:43):
cares Totally.
Val (04:45):
No shame.
Kat (04:46):
Oh, good.
I like
Val (04:47):
this.
So I, I, I think I've exposedit.
Kat (04:49):
Yes.
You're congratulations.
Clap, clap, clap, clap club.
I'm giving you little snaps forbeing so positive.
Quite the journey.
We're gonna break for commercialand then we're gonna get into
it.
We're gonna deconstruct purityculture.
We're gonna talk about someother very fun things.
Val (05:03):
Are you looking for love?
But you're ready to give up ondating it's.
So hopper and reset yourself forlove with me in my six week
coaching program together, we'llprepare you for dating with new
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Kat (05:21):
It's like you're a
Val (05:22):
dating doula.
Exactly.
I'm here to guide you on yourjourney to love.
Grab your spot and get more infoat.
So this is love.club.
Yay.
Kat (05:33):
Living in a culture that preaches conformity to narrow
beauty standards.
It feels really good to own artthat celebrates honors and
glorifies diverse bodies thatmystic art uses photos from real
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(05:56):
underscore art on Instagram.
we're back.
Val (06:00):
We're back.
Kat (06:01):
That was super fun.
Val (06:03):
Thanks for supporting us.
Kat (06:04):
Yeah, we really appreciate that commercials.
Yeah Okay.
So again, we both came frompurity culture.
We spent years subjected to itand I mean, we were in ministry
and a campus pastor and I laterwent back to some of my students
and like apologized for how Ihad perpetuated
Val (06:19):
some of
Kat (06:20):
about we're not supposed to have sex before marriage.
Val (06:22):
What would you say is a working definition of purity
culture?
like, if someone was notsubjected to this,
Kat (06:29):
yeah.
Val (06:30):
what did it look like?
Kat (06:30):
Well yeah, it's like an understanding that like, you are
supposed to be avoiding sex atall costs just address modestly.
The onus on purity was way moreplaced on fem people than
Val (06:43):
Mm.
Kat (06:44):
people Right.
You were supposed to kind oflive like an asexual person
until you got married and onyour wedding night, you're
allowed to be a sexual personwithin a really tight container
of marriage and, you know,monogamy and all that It doesn't
make any sense with how a humanbeing actually is.
You can't turn it
Val (07:01):
on There you go.
Yeah, there you go.
Cat.
There you go.
Kat (07:04):
purity culture.
I wanna try to saycounterintuitive.
It it's just not how a humanworks.
Right.
So normal human development isin your young teens.
You begin like having sexualfeelings, impulses and desires.
Curiosity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
Val (07:20):
and all that shamed.
Kat (07:22):
I think, you know, the larger culture outside of
evangelical culture can be kindof puritanical as well.
Val (07:26):
Well, right.
The Puritans came here to findreligious solace.
Just very
Kat (07:31):
Rigid ideas around well, and then what else is it?
Is it that like a
Val (07:35):
Victorian era sensibility about
Kat (07:38):
sex or, yeah, well, like when did it show up, right.
Is what I'm trying to get to,like, when did these ideas about
sex and sexuality show upthroughout human history?
Right.
And it'd be interesting to learnabout like the more indigenous
peoples and their relationshipto sex and sexuality and sexual
development.
That's not something I know verymuch about, but I'm curious
Val (07:56):
I remember reading actually I think through grad school
about this tribe, I wanna say itwas somewhere in like Southeast
Asia where the young womanactually picked their sexual
partners.
They had their own little huts,little sleeping areas, and it
was encouraged that they hadmany partners and they were the
(08:17):
ones with the power I love tohear about that too, because,
well, I'm fascinated bycultures, but just that there
are different ways to
Kat (08:23):
that Yeah.
And to give sexual agency tolike a young woman is, is kind
of amazing.
And that's really different thanwhat we've all been exposed to
in like patriarchal culture.
Right.
Where, you know, it's a, a manwho has to initiate sex and, you
know, again, our ideas about sextend to be again, very
heteronormative mm-hmm right.
Even the ideas of like, Firstbase second base, you know,
(08:45):
again, these are like the endgoal being penis, vagina sex, as
if that's the only like actualsex mm-hmm whereas I've noticed
as a queer person now, like sexis a lot more expansive and it's
definition, right?
Any kind of sexual energy andsexual contact, all of it is
sex.
Right?
Val (09:02):
right.
I don't know how much I willtalk about sex in this, episode.
We've talked about that, but Iwill say.
I think purity culture is justso damaging because it goes
against one of the naturaldrives that we have a hunger
thirst sleep, right.
And a sexual drive that it'snatural.
(09:22):
And why shame it?
And fear, I think fear wasanother way to control people.
Right.
And also withholdinginformation.
God.
Kat (09:32):
We didn't know anything.
I was in college and we did notknow hardly anything about
Val (09:36):
sex.
Did you get the sex talk?
Kat (09:38):
No,
Val (09:38):
I didn't either I just heard keep your pants on.
I scoffed at that point too.
Kat (09:42):
I'm like, yeah,
Val (09:43):
gonna be the sex talk.
I mean, I was glad, right.
Every teenager was like, ah,help,
Kat (09:47):
so fear and repression.
When you repress your naturalcuriosities and desires and you
hold it in place with shame andfear, right.
It comes out in, in other
Val (09:58):
ways, Mm-hmm I
Kat (09:59):
the other thing, you know?
Yeah.
Or it just takes you a hell of along time to like, learn
something about
Val (10:03):
yourself.
And I think that it really doescreate this disconnection with
your body.
Absolutely.
Right.
So you're talking about you knowfem people are told that your
body is dangerous.
Mm-hmm like it can cause a fullgrown adult.
To be tempted, but all theplacement, even we're talking
about, what's happening in theworld now with abortion rights,
(10:24):
it's all about the, the personcarrying the baby.
Isn't it.
And not about the other personthat might have been involved,
that patriarchal thing of likeit's all on the, on the woman.
So the spaghetti straps, right.
It's always talking about likegirls getting sent home because
they're wearing spaghetti strapsso then you get this
internalized shame about yourbody and that you're just
supposed to be.
Kat (10:43):
mm-hmm
Val (10:44):
And that you're gonna cause someone else to sin.
Right.
Kat (10:46):
As opposed to teaching us all of us, not just, you know
fem people or masculine people,all of us need to learn how to
like, recognize what our urgesare and then open up
conversations about consent,about how to control yourself.
Like self-control right.
It's interesting.
Cuz like in Christian circlesthey talk about self control a
lot, but like.
What they have done with,sexuality is they're like, shut
(11:08):
it all the fuck down as opposedto just acknowledging yeah.
We're all sexual beings.
And like, in some places it'sappropriate to express that in
other places.
It's not, you know what I
Val (11:17):
Sure And talking about maybe the sex in, in a more
realistic way.
Sure.
And, and sure.
Right.
Like puberty happens to comewhen you're a teenager.
Right.
The brain is not fullyfunctional yet.
Right.
The brain is not thinking aheadtoward consequences as much.
Definitely feels invincible,right?
And you feel like, you know,everything, you don't need any
adults to tell you what to do.
(11:38):
So it is sort of in that sense,right?
Like maybe a time to startexperimenting with, with all
this.
Like, I get
Kat (11:45):
my choices as a parent, this is interesting again.
So I've been sex positive for along time.
Like before I even realized Iwas queer and before my long
term heterosexual marriageended, we were evangelical you
and I were, and then I marriedsomeone who Was a devout
Christian, but like mainlineChristianity was just a lot less
rigid about some of this stuff.
And so anyway, so it was prettysex positive.
(12:06):
So I've been talking to my kidsabout sex as soon as it was like
any possible
Val (12:10):
way to come up Sure.
It's part of life.
Kat (12:11):
Yeah, very normalized so much so that they're like the
information has been given tothem before they recognized any
sexual desire in themselves,which I think is really
empowering where they're notsuddenly like,
Val (12:25):
ah, they're not surprised by it, the shame what's
happening to my
Kat (12:29):
body.
right Where they've
Val (12:30):
they're prepared.
Kat (12:31):
And they've already been like, this is not an
embarrassing thing.
This is a normal thing.
You know?
And it's funny, like sometimeswe're watching, even Marvel
movies or something where like,you know, two characters are
kissing or making out orsomething like that.
And it used to be a funny jokewhere they didn't notice it for
a little while.
And then they started to beaware of it, you know, like, oh,
you guys don't like that part.
And then, you know, my older kidwas like, I don't, I don't mind
(12:52):
anymore.
You know, and so like my olderkid will check in with me
sometimes and, and just aboutpuberty stuff, you know?
And I'm like, oh my God.
But also my kids are like, mom,stop talking about sex, cuz
they're at that age where it's alittle bit, you know?
And so I don't know.
I'm just really.
Delighted that I get to have anup close view of what it's like
(13:12):
to watch a human being developwithout all of that shame and
all of that, restriction thatthey get to just kind of bloom
into who they are free of that.
Right.
Val (13:23):
Well, and what I was gonna say was I can understand the
concern.
Yeah, all these things areconverging at once where
teenagers, but I, I love yourapproach is like, well, let's
get them some informationbeforehand so that it's not
right.
I mean, even just the first timethat you have your period,
right?
Like if you knew it was coming,if you were prepared, but if not
like, right.
We've all seen the movie wherethe girl thinks that she's
(13:43):
dying.
Kat (13:43):
Of course
Val (13:45):
so how gentle, how.
compassionate.
Yeah.
I I'm just realizing, like togive kids information obviously
age appropriate, right.
Yeah.
Mostly
Kat (13:54):
I think so.
I might be an oversharesometimes.
but you know, what I've beengood about too I talk since they
were quite young, talk a lotabout like bodily autonomy and
consent stuff.
Right?
Yeah.
And so they really know what itmeans to be in charge of their
own body and their own space.
Val (14:13):
Can I just say that comes at a price?
And I think as parents, you haveto do the work, to have the,
repercussions of a child who hasbody autonomy, because you just
asked one of your children for ahug and you got denied
Kat (14:26):
I know, I know.
Like I, it's sort of this funny
Val (14:28):
and now it's a funny thing, but a lot of people, I think.
For whatever reasons couldn'thandle that.
Right.
I'm the mom give me a hug,
Kat (14:37):
too.
Right?
So again, if you zoom out whatpurity culture is, it's about
controlling people.
It's mostly about controllingfem people.
Mm-hmm which is just soinfuriating.
But once you zoom out enough andyou look at what the fuck is
going on, that's what patriarchyis.
It's this masculine person isgonna have control over
everybody else and fuck allthat.
Right.
When you look in the history,people have, moved like women's
(14:59):
liberation forward often there'slike overt sexuality.
As part of that, reclaiming your
Val (15:05):
Mm-hmm
Kat (15:05):
your interest in sex, your pleasure reclaiming your
pleasure as a means of like,power.
Isn't that powerful.
Isn't that interesting?
Val (15:16):
Yes.
Kat (15:16):
Okay.
So we talk about, yeah.
Sexual power is, is a huge partof my deconstruction too.
Right.
And it was interesting cuz I'monline on some like X
evangelical groups, like somesupport groups, you know?
And then I saw this meme onthere once.
So it was talking about thechurch kid to kinky person.
And I love that.
I was like, oh my God, me too.
(15:37):
Me too.
Right.
Well, and the, the idea is thatwhen you're impurity culture, it
like tries to, teach you thatyou should basically, like we
said, live asexually untilsuddenly you're married and then
boom.
Everything should just be likeno problem with very, very
little education.
Yeah.
Right.
And and you know, my own storyis that I was someone who didn't
(15:57):
have.
Sex with my husband before wegot married.
And so it was like, we werewaiting until we were married.
And then because of all theyears of shut it down, shut it
down, shut it down.
It really did take us a while tolike, have both of us be able
to, to be together in this waywithout our brain sort of being
like, oh, shut it down, shut itdown.
(16:18):
Right.
Val (16:18):
Yeah.
I, I think it's a mind fog totell people to keep it all the
way down and then like, oh yeah.
And now because you have pledgedmarriage right now, you're
supposed to just all of a suddenturn it on.
And I think there's a lot ofsexual dysfunction out there in
it Yeah, because of
Kat (16:36):
this.
Yeah.
But when you, okay, so when youleave like an oppressive
worldview that tries to say, youhave to stay within this narrow
margin.
Most of us who have left thatspace have left it because we
started to feel curious aboutthings that were outside.
What was
Val (16:52):
mm-hmm you
Kat (16:53):
and then you have to do this inner work of like, oh, I'm
recognizing some dissonance withwhat I've been told.
And what's happening is theinformation inside of me is
getting louder than all theprogramming.
And I have to like, follow whatfeels true on the inside.
And so it doesn't surprise methat a lot of other former
church kids would also want toexplore sexuality and all the
(17:14):
way to the fullness of it.
And so if you're gonna besomeone that's exploring
sexuality into the fullness ofit, you're probably gonna run
across like, you know, a funword called kink
Val (17:28):
you can talk to us about this.
I actually think that this isfascinating.
you are bringing the knowledgeto the table today about this,
cuz I really know very littleand I was actually really
interested even from just like apsychology humanity kind of
viewpoint, because I think thatthe mainstream idea of it and
even living in the bay area,like there's the Folsom street
fair and Oh, these people justlike to do wild things that,
(17:48):
that sound wild but actuallywhen you explained it and I
actually, even before UAT hadanother.
Talking to me about theirexploration in sort of the, the
submissive dominating cultureand just that it was maybe
deeper than I thought it
Kat (18:04):
this and and holistic it's really, really fascinating.
So I realized that my long termmarriage is over.
I realized that I'm queer.
And then in that, in that space,it was like the floodgates
opened and suddenly I wanted toexplore everything.
So, you know, like I talk aboutmy dating journey of like dating
as many queer people as I could.
And I was exploring like nonmonogamy or polyamory, but also
(18:28):
in that space, I was.
Interacting with people thatwere like actively involved in
the kink community or theleather community.
Also the known as the BDSMcommunity mm-hmm so it's
interesting of my understanding.
I'm still a novice in thesespaces.
And I wouldn't say it's like abig part of my identity, but
it's something that I gavemyself permission to be curious
about without shame.
(18:49):
right?
Yeah.
So like, that's the thing.
Once I moved away from all thoserepressive systems, I was like,
I'm allowed to be curious aboutanything that just looks shiny
to me, you know?
And that was like probably oneof the.
The most powerful transitions ofmy life to no longer feel any
shame about anything I wascurious
Val (19:08):
about Mm
Kat (19:09):
Yeah.
It was a really profound shiftin my life that I could just be
allowed to be like, oh, that'sinteresting.
I'm gonna read everything I canabout that, you know?
So when I was dating people, oneof the first queer people I
dated, I've mentioned thisbefore they were a sex educator.
And so they would do likeworkshops.
And so they'd had onlineworkshops cuz the pandemic and
(19:29):
so it was like intro to BDSM.
And so, you know, again, likemainstream culture, we have
these scary ideas about it cuzwe don't understand it.
Right.
But it's a community of peoplewhere they're just.
I'm curious about this, or I'minterested in like different
sensations and people in thekink community are really
careful to say, Hey, everythingabout kink is not sex.
(19:51):
And that's really, reallyimportant because what we're
doing is we're creating safespaces to explore.
Deepest desires mm-hmm right.
When we think about BDSM, youknow, we understand that there's
an element of, of sensation andor pain.
Right.
And so when you, you're kind ofplaying in that space, you're.
(20:15):
Allowing your body to reframeyour understanding of what pain
might be.
you're allowing yourself to haveexperiences that in a safe
context can be like tremendouslycathartic mm-hmm And again,
maybe not ever end up in like asexual act.
Right.
But just a space where you'relike, I want to feel something,
you know,
Val (20:36):
and from what I understand control as well, having a
different idea about control orwho you give control to or
Kat (20:44):
right.
Val (20:45):
What you're in control of.
Kat (20:46):
yeah.
So zooming out a bit like thekink space.
And again, I'm not saying that Iknow everything, I'm just
sharing some of my, like myknowledge and my own curiosities
here.
But, I read this really coolbook.
I'm still working my way throughit, but it's called radical
ecstasy.
And then there's another bookthat is really interesting to
me.
It's called ethical slut andit's creating.
Language and a culture of likeconsent and self awareness.
(21:10):
And that's what else is really,really cool.
Like I think that.
this space where you havepermission to explore whatever
your curiosity is, there's lotsof people who have done lots and
lots of work to like trainpeople about what does consent
mean?
What does creating like a scenemean?
You have to know yourself prettywell to
Val (21:30):
to answer all those questions
Kat (21:31):
Yeah.
And it's, again, it's one ofthose things that in mainstream
culture, people are not doingRight, because you're not self
aware or you are just sort oflike, oh, this person likes me
and oh, I'm kind of a peoplepleaser and oh, I'm gonna like,
you know, kind of move down thatpath.
Right.
There's all these other kinds ofways that people have sexual
experiences, but like in thesespaces, it's very intentional,
(21:54):
which I think is so beautiful.
Val (21:56):
When you're talking, I'm like, yeah, because purity
culture, you have to play hardto get, or no doesn't really
mean, no, we do have a verystrong, What's the opposite of
consent culture, right.
Even to the point where I'vestarted asking people like, oh,
Hey, you know, I'm going throughsomething you, have the space to
hear this?
Or even like can I ask thisquestion?
Not even assuming that like Ican, I'm not.
(22:18):
Demanding this information fromsomeone, right.
Just that consent.
So I said this before in thepodcast, when I was listening to
a lot of your dating storiesthat you were checking in with
people that you were meeting upwith, and there was so much talk
ahead of time, which seems to goagainst this mainstream idea we
have about this spontaneous sexthat just happens.
(22:42):
And doesn't seem like a lot ofconsent is happening
Kat (22:45):
right.
And you know, there's somediscussion about that.
Like, I can imagine a scenariowhere like, someone doesn't
wanna do all those things, butthey're already in a a
relationship with each other.
Right.
And so maybe you don't have tobe as hyper vigilant about it,
but.
But again with my past traumaexperiences, I'm really
attracted to a space that issuper communicative, super
consent forward.
(23:06):
Mm-hmm you check in about everysingle possible thing you can
think of to check in.
Right.
Because what you're trying to dois create a positive experience
for you and the other peoplethat you're engaging with, you
know So, you know, like kink isas diverse as all of humanity is
diverse.
Right?
And I would say you zoom outmore like sexuality is as
diverse as all of humanity isdiverse.
Mm-hmm And so when you giveyourself permission to live
(23:29):
outside of shame, and you'rejust like, Hey, Oh, my God, I'm
a sexual being.
Right.
and then what I've noticed isthat I think in, in sexual
spaces, there's a growingmovement of like sexual magic
and sex healing, which I thinkis profound and amazing and
wonderful.
Val (23:47):
Can you imagine our 21 year old selves, if we told them that
we were gonna be talking aboutsexual healing?
Kat (23:52):
Well,
Val (23:53):
outside of purity culture I
Kat (23:54):
know, I know.
Val (23:56):
I do believe that every positive experience we have with
another human being can becorrective, can be healing
right.
For the trauma we've had.
And just like those things youshare they're very intimate and
can be very healing or magical.
Right.
And I mean, why not?
Like.
People talk about other kinds oforgasms, like, like joking
around like like a food gasmright.
(24:18):
Or we, this is so, oh my gosh.
It's so cheesy.
Kat (24:22):
Well, come on.
I
Val (24:22):
Bible college.
we used to talk about a harmAgam where like the harmonizing
of people's voices.
I mean, I still stand by this.
Sure.
But just that feeling that likeeuphoria, it is it's this
transformative feeling orexperience.
Right.
Kat (24:36):
Yeah So.
and it feels spiritual.
It does And transformative, itfeels like metaphysical
sometimes.
Like it's an elevation
Val (24:43):
an elevation.
Well that's a good
Kat (24:44):
word, right?
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
Okay.
So we can experience that in allkinds of context.
Right.
So it's funny that yeah, gasm onthe end of other words.
Sure, sure.
Yeah.
So the harm Agam is that whatyou said?
Mm-hmm There's so many ways weexperience this is what I've
discovered.
Right?
So I still experience stuff likethat.
In meditation.
We had experiences like thatwhen we were in charismatic
spaces, during an altar call,right.
(25:06):
Church where people are likepraying for each other.
We used to have experienceswhere someone would like lay
hands on you and you get likeslain in this.
Spirit mm-hmm like, that was avery heightened metaphysical
experience for me quite often.
Like you can have visions, youcan have prophecies, like all
those things make you feelconnected to something much
larger than just yourself.
Right I think
Val (25:24):
that's part of the.
Kat (25:26):
Of course it
Val (25:27):
Yes The the people that were the most into that stuff
Yes yes,
Kat (25:32):
yes, And so that's what I've noticed is.
I've had these sort ofexperiences, in meditation or on
retreats sometimes.
But then when I started havingsex with queer people, I was
noticing that I could get into ahead space that felt.
Like these other experiences youknow one of the things in a
kinky dynamic, you can havelike, this fun playing with
(25:52):
power, people are using termslike top or bottom.
And so it doesn't even reallyhave to be about like sexual
positions, but it's just like,who is holding this space and
they're like the top they'reholding the, power position.
And then the other person it'sreally interesting.
It gives you permission torelinquish control and just
like, And then to be having likea really charged sexual
(26:16):
experience while also likeletting go of everything can
take you into what's known assubspace and it's like a
euphoria.
It's a really.
Brilliant.
Cool.
Kind of euphoria.
And in some people's play thisisn't my personal experience.
I haven't explored this verymuch, but in some people's play,
you can get a kind of euphoriafrom intense sensation.
(26:38):
Right.
So that would be like peoplewanting to use you know, like.
Whips and things like that.
Like I can hear myself be alittle shy about it still.
that's not super where I haveplayed yet, but again, it's
just, it's like to allow yourbody to have these sort of
experiences that just sort ofheighten everything.
The, the human body can do.
Cool.
Amazing
Val (26:56):
shit.
Why do people do a polar plunge?
Kat (26:58):
exactly right.
Yeah.
When we push ourselves to anykind of extreme what our
physical bodies will do as aresult, equal a state of
euphoria can catapult us into asensation of like, wow, every
it's much larger than just me.
Mm-hmm And somehow you'reconnected to everything in the
cosmos, because, of somethingthat you've.
(27:20):
you've done in your body, youknow, in, even like in some
indigenous communities, youknow, we know about like sweat,
is it sweat, lodge?
Mm-hmm yeah, like they, they dolike an intense ceremony and
they allow their body toexperience some amount of what
we would call suffering.
Mm-hmm in order to overcome itin order to get to the other
side of it.
And it's really beautiful.
Again, in kink spaces peoplewill agree on the kinds of
(27:42):
exchange that they want to have.
And then lot of emphasis onafter.
And that's so beautiful cuz youjust had really big, sometimes
cathartic experience.
And then the people that you'reengaging with everyone is
informed like, well, what do youneed for aftercare?
What kind of things You know?
And some people might say, I'mprobably gonna need to be like.
(28:03):
Tucked in and lay like in a bedby myself for a little while.
Some people are like, oh, I'mgonna want to be held.
And like softly petted, I'mgonna need this kind of music.
I'm gonna need this amount ofquiet.
Right?
Like you have to know yourself.
Right.
And you get to
Val (28:17):
just amaz I'm just amazed.
I'm just amazed.
Right.
Because it's just like, that'samazing.
Yeah.
Like just in general forcommunications, for
relationships.
Yeah.
Right.
Thinking about.
About even just what you'll needafter the act, not just the act.
And I think that's what maybemainstream culture says about
sex anyway.
Right.
It's all about that.
Act the climax and then like,whatever.
(28:37):
Right?
The joke is that someone's gonnafall asleep It's beautiful.
The care and the thought and theintentionality.
Yeah.
In.
Kat (28:45):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And again, sometimes this isincluding what we would think of
as sex acts and sometimes it'snot.
But ultimately what the, kinkcommunity or the leather
community is, creating our, oursafe places to kind of explore,
you know?
And then it's interestingbecause as I've done a lot of
work around radical self.
Acceptance.
(29:06):
I look back on our time inevangelical culture and I
realize I was constantly tryingto repent away my own shadow
side to strive and strive andstrive to be so.
Fucking good to honor God to belike, Jesus was to be perfect.
Right?
You've got perfectionism andlike the good, bad binary and
(29:26):
all these things.
And then as I moved towardsradical self acceptance, I
started to make peace with myown shadow side.
Right.
And it, it might be like adarker impulse, but it also is
just.
I can fail at things.
I can be bad at stuff.
My house can be perpetuallymessy and I'm not somehow
morally inept because of that.
(29:46):
Right.
Mm-hmm and then again, in myADHD diagnosis, that helped me
so much to be like, oh, this isjust a cool part of me that has
some strengths, but it has somelike weaker areas too.
But see, I am done.
trying to eradicate that fuckingshit.
Right.
And so I've noticed in my likeown sexual awakening, I get to
do shadow work.
I get to integrate all of me.
(30:09):
I don't have to be a good
Val (30:11):
Mm-hmm
Kat (30:12):
Mm-hmm fuck that.
Right.
But also I have a praise king,so praise me, praise me.
Praise me.
cuz I love that shit.
Val (30:20):
is that that's a thing.
Is that a
Kat (30:21):
It's a thing.
Everything's a thing, Val.
Val (30:23):
I know But did you make that up or someone else
Kat (30:25):
did not make that up.
Val (30:26):
up Okay Yeah Well, I could see that Sure, sure.
Yeah.
That's
Kat (30:31):
funny.
I know Yeah but it's great spacetoo.
Like.
I think that I have a deepcommitment at this point to be
all the way me, right.
To find every avenue ofself-expression that exists
because there's something in methat just wants.
Well, I think it is it's theyears of living in a.
Like a contained space thatallowed little freedom and
(30:54):
little self-expression and thento like kind of break out of it.
And then suddenly the wholecosmos is open to
Val (31:02):
us.
Mm
Kat (31:03):
And so that, that kind of freedom and exploration is, is
enthralling.
You know?
Yeah.
And you know, it's not to saythat I've done things perfectly
or like that I'm perfectly outthere in, in the dating world
we're still learning and makingmistakes all the time.
All of us as humans, you knowwhat I mean?
Yeah.
And so that's the other thingtoo, is I've noticed in some of
these circles, there's like abeautiful Space for repair too,
(31:27):
you know, and I just thinkthat's amazing.
And again, I think it's amazingthat like all of these skills
are being taught and practicedin a context that our mainstream
culture poo poos and makes funof as though these are deviance.
And yet these are the mostpresent.
Groups of people I've everencountered.
Val (31:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (31:47):
And there's still, I mean, again, and everyone's still
human, like there's not theexpectation of perfectionism and
I, I think that that's fuckingbeautiful too.
Val (31:55):
Well, I mean, let's talk about if you wanna be authentic.
And vulnerable your goal can'tbe perfection, right?
Mm-hmm you have to know thatyou're messy and you're
imperfect and leaving spacewhere I think in the culture
that we grew up in.
There was no room for
Kat (32:11):
you were gonna go to hell, fuck it.
God damn it.
If you make too many mistakesand then you die, you're gonna
go to hell But
Val (32:17):
even just like the shame that would come or the
separation or lose your job ifyou had any sexual mistakes.
Right.
I'm just saying that's the verypresent ones like, oh, you're
gonna lose all your friends, allyour community, because cuz of
that
Kat (32:32):
yeah.
I mean, I used to have a lot ofreally close friends from Bible
college.
I have one or two friends leftbecause I have changed so much,
but like, I feel like I've comehome to myself, the people who I
connect with now, and I meet nowget to know like the most
authentic Catherine there's everbeen.
Right.
And that feels really good, butit is hard that like that
(32:53):
worldview wouldn't.
Me maintain relationship with alot of people.
they don't have space in theirworldview for me to be gay for
me to be non monogamous.
Sure.
You know, for me to be all thesethings, cuz we were fucking
taught really very clearly.
This is the devil, right?
This is sin.
I don't believe in sin at all.
Yeah, fuck that.
(33:14):
No, because again, I love theidea of shadow work and like the
imagery of the yang and the yangand that beautiful symbol.
Right.
I realized that I spent all ofmy life trying to eradicate all
the shadow.
Right.
We were sort of taught
Val (33:26):
that in our culture.
Yeah.
Kat (33:27):
and then you cannot possibly center yourself if
you're trying to live justwholly in the light, cuz you're
repressing and repressing andrepressing.
Yeah.
The dark.
That just is a part of
Val (33:38):
It's just there
Kat (33:39):
Yeah.
And so like when you allow forboth and you engage in like
self-acceptance, then you startto come into your own and then
suddenly learning how to centeryourself.
Isn't so fucking but if you'reonly light and only love you
can't quite find your center.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I lived that way for so many,
Val (33:59):
Mm.
Kat (34:01):
Yeah.
And in some ways I was kind ofgood at it.
Right.
It's really But eventually mybody was like, let's try
Val (34:09):
isn't Cause it takes a lot of energy repress.
to ignore.
Yeah.
And numb.
Kat (34:16):
Right.
I feel so happy to be like,again, these, parts of me are
not my whole identity, but itfeels really good to be able to
explore and, to like really nothave shame a part of it.
You know, it feels really goodto be raising my kids where
okay.
This story.
Oh my gosh.
Both of my kids will likehappily watch plenty of YouTube
(34:36):
and I am okay with that.
I'm comfortable with them.
Following their own curiosity.
And my older kid is 12 and youknow, is in middle school and is
coming home with some, words andthings that I can tell his kid
is like trying them out, youknow?
Wow.
And so I can't remember at onepoint we're like in the car and
they said something likesomething like you're a ho.
(34:58):
And I was like, do you know whatthat means?
And they're like I, think itmeans you couldn't be that
anyway.
I, think it means it's someonethat like and they didn't really
know what it was.
They, they knew it was a littlebit derogatory.
They didn't know why.
Right.
And so I explained, yeah, peopleuse that to shame people who
have they go on lots of datesand they have lots of partners
and then he was like, oh, thatcouldn't be you.
And I was like, actually yes, Ido go on lots of dates.
(35:19):
Right.
And so they.
They were like, this is newinformation you know, cuz I, I
don't have my kids all the time.
They get to go yeah.
Be with their great parent,their dad So I've had a lot of
freedom to date, you know?
It was really, really amazing tobe
Val (35:33):
he's like my mom is a
Kat (35:34):
okay you would be so surprised, but it was such a
happy day for me.
Yeah.
To be like, yeah, your mom goeson dates with lots of people.
Right.
As many as I can get.
Getting to raise my children.
In a context that is, you know,extremely sex positive, and
there's no morality around howmuch experience someone may or
may not have.
(35:55):
You know, also there's plenty ofspace for people to not be
sexual.
You know, like asexuality is areal valid way to live your
life.
You don't have to be as curiousas I am about all these things,
you get to, again, All I wantfor all of us is to just know
ourselves, to be kind toourselves and then to have the
freedom to follow the curiosity.
Right.
Yeah.
And then it doesn't happeninstantaneously.
(36:16):
Yeah.
Like once I started to realize,I want, you know, these kinds of
relationships in my life, theydidn't show up, then it manifest
immediately, but they'remanifesting, they're showing up
and that feels really, reallygood.
We
Val (36:27):
GA thanks for leading this conversation.
I was like, oh, you wanna talkabout sex?
Yeah.
You're in charge today.
Yeah, I like this.
I appreciate the conversationbecause.
I just think it's great for usto be talking more about sex.
Like we're having it.
We're not having it it's a partof life.
It's a part of who we all are.
Like you said to varying degreesand it's all okay.
Kat (36:47):
Yeah.
I think sex is a really fun wayto explore, you know, getting
for me.
It's been really, really fun forme.
I'm having a fucking great time.
Val (36:58):
Well, you know what you know, going against my
stereotype or my type castinghere as a therapist, one day I
was like, you gotta put your biggirl panties on, you gotta talk
about sex.
Like, is it awkward?
Not, you know, sometimes I'lljust joke about, like, I don't
know if you wanna talk about sexwith your therapist, or this is,
you know, weird, but like,Definitely.
You're talking about pleasure.
I talk about orgasms and liketotally.
We've talked about creativitycoming through orgasm and just
(37:22):
that, that is a part of anyother kind of release or stress
release or
Kat (37:26):
just like
Val (37:27):
self-care self-care
Kat (37:28):
Like regular masturbation as part of normal
Val (37:30):
self care.
Selfcare yeah.
Yes exactly.
So see, are you proud of me for
Kat (37:35):
yeah.
Are you, practicing what youpreach?
That's what I wanna know.
Val
Val (37:39):
Oh,
Kat (37:40):
the time.
Val (37:40):
am.
Kat (37:44):
I love you so much.
I can see that.
You're not gonna answer rightquestion.
I love you.
Good job, Val, you made a lot of
Val (37:49):
job I made, it through
Kat (37:50):
there You did.
We did it.
Val (37:52):
And I like to joke about it, but I'm so glad we're having
these conversations.
It's so good.
Yay.
Thanks.
Thanks friends and listeners.
I forget coming on
Kat (38:01):
this journey with bye
Val (38:02):
right.
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