September 5, 2022 • 39 mins
Kat and Val go really deep this episode as Kat dives into the questions “What is moving around for you”. This week our hosts acknowledge, that vulnerability is risky, and yet, finding a kind witness to our most intimate experiences of growth and healing can transform us as individuals and our relationships with others.
*This podcast is for entertainment purposes only
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Kat and Val Podcast
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So This is Love Club
Reset Yourself for Love Program
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Additional resources/definitions referenced in most episodes:
How to Change Your Mind (Netflix Docuseries) Micheal Pollan
The Gottman Institute: Dreams Within Conflict
Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria
Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole by Susan Cain
Jill Johnson Young- grief talker
Five Stages of Grief
Intuitive eating.org
NAAFA National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance
Tell Me I'm Fat - This American Life
Prentis Hemphill
Vitamin D gummies!!!!!!
Adrienne Maree Brown
Pleasure Activism; The Politics of Feeling Good
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Book by Emily Nagoski
Attached - Book by Amir Levine and Rachel S. F. Heller
Understanding Dopamine: Love Hormones And The Brain
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Val (00:05):
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
Good
Val (00:34):
Good morning.
Good morning.
Kat (00:35):
Hi, Val.
Val (00:36):
Hi cats.
Kat (00:39):
I am very grateful to be in your home today.
it was hard to get out of
Val (00:44):
my neighborhood.
Kat (00:44):
Yeah.
I love it here.
It was very hard to get out ofmy bed.
I got my kids up and out forschool today, which was pretty
easy.
Yeah, no, they're doing so good.
The kids are doing so good aboutthat.
We started back at schoolobviously and yeah.
And then I was like, Fuck.
And I crawled right back in mybed and I was like, oh my God.
(01:06):
And it is one of those thingswhere I, I was like, oh my God,
I think I need some dopamine orsomething.
Like usually podcast day is mymost favorite day.
And so I'm always energized onpodcast day.
Yeah.
So to be.
I wanna hide under my coversindefinitely.
And it was also podcast day.
I was like, oh no, existentialcrisis.
Val (01:31):
poor widow, cat.
Kat (01:32):
I know.
So I called you and what did Iask you?
What I ask
Val (01:36):
said yell at me.
So I get out of my bed.
And then you're like yell a
Kat (01:40):
harder.
Val (01:41):
I was like, oh geez, you want dopamine?
Don't you?
Yes,
Kat (01:46):
you?
mean, you taught us all thesegood tricks about how to get
dopamine sometimes.
Oh my God.
That's hilarious.
I'm
Val (01:54):
actually really impressed and proud of you.
Because you.
We're able to get what you need.
You're like, I need anotherhuman to like intervene into my
cocooning.
I'm gonna cocoon in 3, 2, 1.
And you stopped to processyourself so well done.
Well, that's a really goodskill.
Kat (02:12):
Oh, thank you.
I have gotten, I have gottenpretty okay at like, asking for
help when I need it, but it justwas honestly like dis
unsettling.
It was unsettling.
I didn't like it.
That I was.
I don't think I'm doing greattoday.
And the truth is, is.
Val (02:28):
is that
Kat (02:30):
Today.
We're gonna talk aboutvulnerability and I
Val (02:35):
It's your favorite topic, KA.
Well, okay.
Also, this is what I love aboutyou.
And I'm also puzzled by quitehonestly, cuz you're like I
could barely get outta bed.
Some stuff swooping around forme.
I, I think I could tell by yourface, you've got some, some
heavy emotions inside.
You're like, so let's just goand talk about vulnerability but
(02:57):
I think, you know, the releaseis good too, but
Kat (02:59):
I know, well, I don't know what I think that might be like
my fire sign, like, right.
So I have like all, all my signsare fire signs.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Astrology.
So
Val (03:10):
just running well, and you also,
Kat (03:11):
so you run into it.
That's what I'm saying.
I have a tendency to run intoshit, which Anyway.
Yeah.
You know, so this is threequestions with cat and Val.
And so our three questions are,you know, what's bringing you
pleasure.
What are you learning?
And I love those questions and Ireally also love what is moving
around for you.
But sometimes when, what ismoving around for us is.
(03:33):
Is the hard and the deep yeah.
You're like, come on,motherfucker.
Yeah.
Like again, really still morewhat,
Val (03:41):
more?
Yeah.
More healing.
Kat (03:43):
Yeah.
Val (03:44):
shifting.
Kat (03:45):
Yeah.
And so, you know, last week wetalked about like, you know, the
title of last week's episode isfamily ties.
And we, we spent like a longtime talking about family war
and stuff.
Right.
Yeah.
And I like.
Had that moment in the lastepisode where I, like, I started
to cry a little bit, cuzeverybody knows now that I cry
like a motherfucker, but like Iwas like, oh yeah, I remember
(04:06):
like I was kind of young and Imade this vow to myself
Val (04:09):
before
Kat (04:09):
all of, all of the trauma, all the bullshit, all of the,
the family of origin stuff.
It stops, it stops with me.
And so.
I'm 44, right?
I'm gonna be 45 this year.
Val (04:22):
Mm-hmm
Kat (04:22):
I was, I was in my late teens when I made this kind of
like, really significant, likevow to myself and I have been
like incredibly diligent aboutmy own,
Val (04:36):
healing.
Kat (04:36):
More so than most humans I've ever interacted with, I've
been like, this is the thingthat I have got to do.
I just want to be whole right.
Mm-hmm And several years ago Iwas like, Hey, I am whole, now I
just have to feel all of mygoddamn mother fucking feelings
And so I've made this commitmentto myself, like to like, you
(04:59):
know, to live in this amount ofauthenticity and to.
Val (05:03):
not
Kat (05:04):
be constantly relying on these old coping mechanisms.
He served me for a while.
Mm-hmm one of the biggest oneswas being pleasing, you know?
And so I feel also frustrated.
Like there's still all thenormal human stuff that shows up
in me.
Like, I, I do feel like I'mwhole, but like somehow talking
about family boards and stuff,it just, I don't know.
(05:26):
It was like, I'm so mad aboutit.
because I wanted it to be allhealed and tied up with a pretty
bow Val.
Yeah.
Val (05:35):
And
Kat (05:35):
It, it feels frustrating to me to be like, what?
It's, there's still pockets ofpain.
Come on.
And so that's I'm, I don't wantthat to be how it is.
I, I want it to be like, we healit all the way and we're
thorough and we're kind toourselves and we live in self
(05:56):
compassion.
This is all this shit I reallydo.
And I really practice.
So, so why Valerie
Val (06:04):
oh boy.
Kat (06:05):
why is there still more?
Why is
Val (06:07):
this works?
Kat (06:08):
Do you have any, do you have any thoughts on that?
Val (06:11):
fuck
Kat (06:12):
cute.
Val (06:14):
You know
Kat (06:14):
you relate to that frustration though?
Val (06:16):
you know, it's so interesting.
We've been doing this podcast,the episodes that I was more
concerned about.
I'm like, okay, that wasn't sobad.
And, and I felt good about them,you know, I was just looking on,
on social media this morning andwhat I'm noticing a lot.
And again, right.
People and their messages and,and, and saying something that's
(06:37):
interesting.
I just see a lot of peoplethought leaders.
I don't even know if they'rehealers, but they're talking a
lot about like, Hey, you don'talways have to be healing.
Yeah.
Like stop this.
Like, you know, you're okay.
Right.
Like, and, and, and actuallythis one was very nuanced, but
it was like, Hey, you.
It's just gonna happen naturallyfrom now on.
(06:58):
And so it was very, no, it's notyou're wrong.
so to be here today, I know, youknow, in the last episode two,
you talked about just Well, andwe're gonna talk about
vulnerability, but just thatlike openness that you're, you
know, I think you were recallingback to how I seem to come
undone during music sometimes,and just being very sensitive
(07:21):
and open and feeling and I dowonder if that's part of it that
you are creating a space where,well, you said you, you vowed to
yourself.
I need to feel all my fuckingfeelings.
So I don't know.
I mean, I always talk abouthealing is layers and yeah.
Pockets.
I kind of like that, that too.
Kat (07:39):
Yeah.
I've been watching stuffrecently.
Maybe these are mostly likeInstagram and tos, but like
people are talking about likehow, you know, somatic therapy,
like sometimes pain is lodged onour body.
Right.
And then I've been trying tomove my body in ways that are
you know, helping it, you know,Have have more range of motion
and things like that.
(08:00):
And so then I just happened tosee one today where like someone
is like, you know, trying to dothis like deep hip stretch to
unlock inner healing so they canfinally heal.
And I definitely hear whatyou're saying about like, we
don't have to be constantlyhealing all the time.
And, and I would say that thishappened organically where I was
like, dude, to do.
I'm good.
I'm good.
And then all of a sudden, youknow, our conversation, it feels
(08:21):
like.
One of the things out of a, alittle series of things that
sort of poked at some just oldthings.
Val (08:29):
Yeah.
Kat (08:30):
And I just, I think that I have to now, like we even had an
episode on re resistance and Iwas like, I have to acknowledge
how deep my own resistance is tothis reality.
The reality being there is thereare still within me, places that
feel extremely tender and relateall the way back to family
(08:51):
boards and stuff.
And.
That's that's okay.
It's it's not pleasant cuz
Val (08:59):
Mm-hmm
Kat (09:00):
in some ways my resistance is the, the safety mechanism of
like
Val (09:05):
ow,
Kat (09:05):
OE.
Val (09:06):
this is as much as I can handle.
Kat (09:08):
Yeah.
And like, Hey motherfucker.
I thought you know, like again,like a coping mechanism, one of
mine is like, Hey, I'm an, astudent in my own healing.
Right.
And I'm like, I, eh, I tried mybest you know, like.
I thought I did all thisalready.
And so when there's still more,that shows up, I'm like, come
(09:29):
on, like, you know, Everybody'sgot their sad story.
If, if I'm working this hard totry to be, you know, whole what
the fuck, the whole Y ofhumanity, every evolve I zoom
out too much and I'm like, andthen comes to despair.
Val (09:48):
fair.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, no, no.
Zoom back in cat.
zoom back in.
It's too much.
It's too
Kat (09:53):
much.
Val (09:54):
too much.
Yeah.
Maybe there's some resistance oflike, wow, I've worked so hard.
Yeah.
I've, I've gone through the painof healing.
Yeah.
I, I resist the idea thatthere's more, or that I'll be
affected again.
This was supposed to be healedup.
Kat (10:12):
yeah.
So yes, exactly.
That like, that's exactly what'shappening.
And then what, one of the thingsthat, like I noticed, like
really started to like pushagainst that resistance.
This is a few weeks ago now.
There is a, like a, a person inthe public eye.
I don't wanna name who they are.
Val (10:29):
but
Kat (10:30):
there's someone who I followed their work for a long
time and I respect them.
And in some ways I reallyidentify with them.
Mm-hmm and they were recentlysharing that they've got like,
they're probably in theirfifties.
I think that they they decidedto like get involved in a 12
step program that they felt likethey needed to.
And I was like, what the fuck?
(10:53):
Cause I was like, Good for you,but also like I thought, I, I
thought we heal.
I thought we heal enough.
I thought that at 50, in ourfifties, we won't still be
stumbling into something whereyou're like, oh yeah, I gotta, I
gotta do this still pro 12 stepprogram.
You know what I mean?
(11:13):
Like.
Val (11:13):
work to do
Kat (11:15):
Big work.
I, I just, it, it reallydiscombobulated me cuz I, I was
like smooth sailing.
Val (11:23):
Oh.
Kat (11:23):
that's what I thought.
Val (11:25):
Oh, maybe it's resistance to the, like the, the future of
smooth sailing.
Kat (11:31):
I want
Val (11:32):
to believe,
Kat (11:33):
I mean, so what it is is it's challenging a belief,
right?
Yeah.
It's challenging a deeply heldbelief that maybe was a little
bit unconscious.
Like I didn't necessarily knowthat I was like, this is my
worldview know, like, I, I, I doall this.
I lean in, I press in hard.
We're gonna be whole, we'regonna heal.
We're gonna cultivate community.
We're gonna have the life wewant.
And then you get to reap thebenefits of that, which does not
(11:55):
include another crisis thateventually you.
And I need to go to a 12 stepprogram.
It's not that it nullifies allthe other work, but I guess I.
I think the emotion I wasfeeling was like, does that
nullify everything else?
Oh, you see what I'm saying?
Val (12:11):
yeah,
Kat (12:12):
I feel bad that I had these perfectionist ideas.
There were sneaky littlemotherfuckers they're in there
and then they're gettingchallenged.
I'm getting all likediscombobulated, mad.
Val (12:23):
I mean, not to dig at you anymore, but
Kat (12:26):
but
Val (12:27):
I'm wondering, and I'm just wondering if, because it's part
of your identity.
Right.
It's part of your identity thatlike I am the healer, I have
healed myself.
Yeah.
But I wonder if that challengesyour, your identity, I decided
to really hyperfocus on mydevelopment
Kat (12:43):
and.
Val (12:45):
Oh,
Kat (12:45):
and oh fuck.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, honestly, there'sbeen several points in my life
where it feels like the floorfalls out.
And so then you are like, whatAnd so I guess to be really
vulnerable, you know, like Iwanna be someone that really is.
(13:07):
Living and practicing, you know,all the things that I say,
right.
That's important to me.
Mm-hmm And so I know that I havedone a lot of work to get to
this point.
I know that I have healedsignificantly and I have
beautiful, healthy relationshipsin my life.
And I, you know, I have a reallystrong relationship with my
children and genuine mean likethose things are true, but I
(13:30):
think when, when older pain isunearthed, And you feel like a
child all over again, you know,you feel small and you feel
scared.
Like the big really, really likebase feelings.
It can, it can make me feellike.
(13:51):
Oh, my God has, has any of thisbeen
Val (13:53):
real works real mm-hmm
Kat (13:55):
Yeah.
And so in that, and it feelslike a crisis to have that, that
much emotion just show up, youknow, and Yeah.
And so like in those moments,the zooming out is what's the
most helpful, right?
Of like, okay,
Val (14:13):
yeah, this
Kat (14:13):
the first time I'm like, this has happened.
Mm-hmm it's just that I thought,I don't know, Val.
I thought we get to a placewhere we, where this stops being
part of the story and maybe thatjust is wrong.
Maybe it's just wrong aboutthat.
I had a belief that was kind ofan unchecked belief right.
Val (14:30):
Ah,
Kat (14:31):
perfectionism and, or.
I shouldn't have to deal withthis fucking shit anymore.
Val (14:37):
yeah.
Or maybe even like the reasonwhy you work so hard to heal is
so that the rest of your lifecan be UN painful.
Yeah.
Or like you're done with it.
Yeah.
Let me, maybe the belief is Idid all this hard work.
Yeah.
So that the rest of the time Idon't have to,
Kat (14:51):
yeah.
Val (14:51):
could, it could be less pain.
Well, sure.
Yeah, sure.
Of course.
Of course, that sounds perfectlylogical.
Kat (15:00):
Like I have you know, you watch TV or movies or whatever,
and you watch you know, folkswho are, you know, our age, but
their parents are still anactive parental role in their
life as opposed to like my wholelife.
I, I didn't feel like my parentswere very Per parental mm-hmm,
you know, mm-hmm I was you know,fiercely independent at a young
age cuz I kind of had to be.
And so I didn't really grow upwith that.
(15:21):
Like the, the, the feeling oflike an older wiser person has
got
Val (15:26):
mm mm.
Kat (15:29):
And that that's, what's showing up.
And I remember just months,months ago watching a movie and.
Someone was sort of talkingabout feeling orphaned.
And I was like, that's sointeresting.
I have no desire for that roleto be filled and I was like, oh,
(15:50):
I've evolved so far.
I don't need a parent And sothat's not, not true, but also I
think it's the both and right oflike, I
Val (16:04):
hadn't,
Kat (16:06):
I don't know, sat with this in a long, long time.
So I didn't see
Val (16:11):
it mm-hmm
Kat (16:12):
so it didn't feel like a reality that I was, you know,
wrestling with.
And then I don't know, very oldgrief showed up.
Right.
And I think that's, what'sreally interesting about our own
healing journey is like whenyou're a child.
You're gonna do whatever youneed to do to survive.
(16:32):
And so one of my copingmechanisms, one that many of us
use is you just, you bury shitand you find a way to move
through.
And so I chose to be pleasingand it worked, it served me for
many years, but then to undothat and to like, Integrate.
And so that's what I feel likeis happening.
Like even this morning,actually, when I was showering
(16:54):
there was just some old, someimagery of like where I had
buried rage because it wasn't, Icouldn't, there was no safe
outlet for it.
So I had to bury it as a youngyoung kid.
Val (17:07):
Mm.
Kat (17:08):
And so I, it showed up in one of my meditations as like
this ward hog actually.
And along with like a child, ayounger version of me and today
in the shower, I I, I saw thatthose were two parts of the same
and I was like, oh, that needsto be integrated.
(17:31):
You know, it's just messy.
Val (17:32):
though.
Kat (17:34):
Yes.
And then it feels so fuckingtender.
And here we are like, again, thesubject is vulnerability and I
think this is why I wanted tostart off with that today was
that, I don't know if it's justhow I'm wired.
It's not comfortable to be thisvulnerable.
It's not, it's uncomfortable.
Val (17:51):
Mm-hmm
Kat (17:52):
but I have learned enough to know that, like to say things
out loud and to have a kindwitness to what is
uncomfortable.
Helps it, it makes us feel lessalone and it I don't know.
I, again, like, I I'm resistantto like trying to find some,
some math equation or to make itpretty, cuz it's not pretty
(18:14):
right now.
Mm-hmm doesn't feel prettyright.
So vulnerability is not prettyand it's not, it's a practice
that adds richness and depth toour relationships.
Mm-hmm
Val (18:24):
and it
Kat (18:25):
It's fucking risky, you know,
Val (18:28):
It is risky it's
Kat (18:29):
it's and brave,
Val (18:31):
mm-hmm yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (18:34):
But if we, if we want a life where we feel like we're
able to show up all the way withourselves and tell the truth to
ourselves and then share thatwith other people.
Val (18:47):
Mm.
Kat (18:47):
don't know.
I still, I think this, this isnot very eloquent, but these are
the choices that I've made.
I, this is I'm too committed tothe life that I want to stop
risking shit now.
Mm mm.
Val (19:03):
when you were talking about burying rage and you were
talking about pockets, I guess Ijust wondered is that sort of a
great picture for what you'reexperiencing, that you had to
bury things and, and as you'rehealing, and as time goes on,
these little things you'veburied are kind of popping up
and these pockets.
(19:25):
You know, are showing up
Kat (19:26):
yeah, yeah.
Val (19:28):
And they're kind of coming up in, in different times.
Kat (19:32):
It's interesting too, cuz things are, you know, we're
really skilled at finding a wayto survive hard shit, you know?
And so some of this stuff isjust.
So far down there, you know, andthen it does require a lot of
time and attention and effortand stillness in order to like,
make it emerging even possible,you know?
Val (19:55):
Well, I think that is the hard work that you are committed
to is to make space for it.
Yeah.
For these things to emerge.
Kat (20:02):
Yeah.
But also it was really funny torealize how like pissed off I
was, that it existed still, youknow?
Val (20:12):
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well now you're releasing thatrage.
You have the space.
Yeah.
To be able to release
Kat (20:18):
live on air
Val (20:23):
well,
Kat (20:24):
it's not exactly live, but like, it's funny that I'm like,
it feels, it is a little weirdto be like, this does feel like
a conversation I would have witha therapist.
And I'm like, it's funny thatwe're it.
oh, Jesus.
Val (20:40):
Well, since you're laughing, it's a good place to
stop for commercials.
Mm.
Kat (20:44):
Mm.
Good idea.
Yeah, let's stop
Val (20:46):
okay.
That felt good.
It felt good in your body.
Am I rushing commercials again?
When you're all vulnerable?
Kat (20:52):
Oh
Val (20:52):
Okay.
We'll we'll take a break forcommercials.
We'll come back and we'll getright back into talk more about
vulnerability.
Kat (20:59):
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Val (21:58):
Okay, we're back.
And one thing I was gonna say,yeah, and I was like, no, Val
end on the end on the laughter
Kat (22:04):
then say
Val (22:05):
a, a touching thing.
Kat (22:07):
Oh.
A touching thing.
Val (22:08):
but I guess so I know that what, what, you're the trigger
from last episode was that yousaid, well, this, this ends with
me, right.
And I guess I just want to say,I recognize that I really think
you've done that.
Kat (22:20):
Yeah.
It's funny.
You just said this sentence andit just, my eyes just welled
with tears,
Val (22:26):
mm,
Kat (22:26):
the
Val (22:28):
like
Kat (22:29):
the magnitude of it, you know, I feel like it's, there's
just this like energy in my bodythat like,
Val (22:36):
it's
Kat (22:37):
A lot had to end with me.
It's a little bit bigger thanmy, my immediate family of
origin.
It it's their family and theirparents and their parents.
And
Val (22:45):
there's so
Kat (22:46):
much right.
Val (22:48):
Ugh.
Kat (22:49):
since I was pretty young, Val, I remember being like
really intrigued by the questionof suffering, right?
Like why, why does sufferingexist in the world?
You know, and I remember I hadan acquaintance, well, a friend
really who I knew that they hadlost a sibling.
Val (23:07):
Mm.
Kat (23:07):
And yeah, I was like seeking them out to have these
conversations.
I just wanted to understand,like, how did you cope or heal
or what did that grief, how wasthat for you?
And I, I don't know why I'vealways been so.
Interested in that, you know,and like CS Lewis writes about
it.
It feels like this, like sort ofone of those questions, many
people like grapple with, youknow, like what is the purpose
(23:30):
of suffering in the world?
You know?
And Christianity said thatsuffering was a result of sin.
And that doesn't resonate withme anymore.
Val (23:37):
Mm.
Kat (23:38):
And so now I feel like I have to find some new, you know,
again, like if the idea of like,when you have a world, you are a
belief system.
This is what's interesting aboutbeliefs is that when they're
challenged and you're open andyou're open to be like, well,
maybe there is more informationnow.
Right?
So then to have.
Val (23:57):
to reorganize
Kat (24:00):
again, after you've had a challenge to a belief, you know
can be jarring and painful rightthere after leaving
fundamentalist, Christianity,and then Christianity together.
I found myself really attractedto like Buddhist thought or
doism and you know, some ofthese other really ancient
(24:21):
worldviews and one of.
Talks a lot about non-belief andso like being so open handed
with everything that you you'reopen to, everything you believe,
everything mm-hmm and youbelieve nothing at the same
time.
Mm-hmm which that really feelsgood to me because I feel like
for me, it's the the pendulumand swing away from
fundamentalism or dogmaticthinking.
Yeah.
And what's interesting is that.
(24:44):
I think the human condition, wecan't help ourselves from
formulating beliefs.
You know, like the belief that Iobviously had of like, Hey, I do
all this work, you know, I'mgonna be like, good, good to go.
Now you know, like no moresuffering.
Val (25:01):
Well, it helps us organize our experience and make sense of
things.
Right.
Kat (25:05):
Yeah.
And I mean, maybe I'm not a verygood, spokesperson for like
inner healing.
I'm like crying.
I'm like, Ooh, it all hurtsstill.
I'm like rah RA don't you wannabe healed too?
Val (25:17):
Well, I mean, that's, that's why I brought it back to
you have disrupted thosegenerational sufferings.
Like you have yeah.
Changed your children.
I see them.
Your children are experiencingyou know, the love and the
safety of childhood.
Kat (25:32):
Right, right.
Val (25:33):
You've done that work to disrupt that.
Yeah.
Kat (25:36):
I just thought we get to an end point and maybe that's the
belief that is being challenged.
Val (25:42):
Yeah.
Kat (25:42):
so the fact that I feel some grief and pain and
discomfort now, and it's notsmall, I'm trying to like.
Be able to still have aconversation, right.
It's not small.
Right.
And so that's why it feels likea crisis mm-hmm So to find a new
pocket, you know, there's somesong about a pocket full of
(26:05):
sunshine.
I'm like motherfucker
Val (26:07):
I have a pocket full of trauma and grief and suffering
in deep, deep, painful emotions.
So take your pocket and shoveit.
oh, friend.
You have left yourselfvulnerable and open right.
To, to feeling these things and.
I mean, that's the essence ofvulnerability in that, you know
(26:29):
which is you're allowingyourselves to, you're taking
your defenses down.
right
Kat (26:34):
you say that again?
Val (26:35):
Well, to be vulnerable is to, is to allow your defenses to
go down.
Yeah.
And you're making yourself well,we use the word vulnerable.
I always love to look at aconcrete, you know, example to
kind of help us understand theemotional, but you leave, we
leave yourself.
Oh, you, you know that countryleft himself vulnerable to
attack or, you know,
Kat (26:54):
mm-hmm.
Val (26:55):
The the, the new game of Thrones, a spinoff is just
coming up and so such it castleswith like moats and all that
kind of stuff.
Right?
Like when you're vulnerable,your exposed you're open.
And that can be painful.
Kat (27:09):
Yeah.
It's interesting because youknow, the more healing you do
than you get to like, learnabout good boundaries too.
And so like the differencebetween like a coping mechanism,
which is a fortress
Val (27:20):
Mm.
Kat (27:21):
and then healing enough so that you're like, oh, here are
boundaries.
And it's boundary is differentthan like creating a fortress
where you, you, you.
Wall yourself in, you know
Val (27:33):
yeah.
You know, my work with couples,we talk a lot about defenses and
sort of the things that stopCommunication and getting to
the, the meat of the matter.
Right.
Mm-hmm And so I just talk about,you know, defenses, they are
just natural in all of us.
Right.
Like, and to continue theanalogy like, oh, someone's
(27:56):
coming in a distance put up theDrawbridge, like we don't know
them.
They could be friend or foe.
Right.
Like, like automatic.
Like I think in the beginning Icarried a lot of shame of like,
oh, I don't know if I'm reallyenjoying my marriage, but I'm a
marriage therapist, right?
Like that pressure of likehaving a perfect relationship
(28:16):
but even if you are trying touse all the tools you're
teaching other people, we'rejust human and our natural
impulse, our first response isto put up a defense when we're
threatened.
Yeah.
Right.
Shove it down.
Or, or.
Tell people the fuck off So likein, in, in working with couples,
(28:37):
right, your partner comes andsays like, ouch, or, Hey, this
isn't working for me or, or Ireally have a hard time when
this happens.
Usually it's the automatic firstI have to protect myself.
You're telling me I'm bad.
You're telling me I didsomething wrong.
Right.
You're this is, this is painful.
I'm gonna have to look atmyself.
It's going to affect the way Isee myself, my own ego.
(28:59):
Right.
To protect the way we seeourself, because we all wanna
believe like, Hey, we're, we'reokay.
we're lovable.
Right.
I think a lot of it all goesback to that.
So it's that practice of sayingoh, okay.
Recognizing that nonjudgmentalnoticing.
Yeah.
Oh, My partner's trying to gimmesome information.
Yeah.
Or my friend is trying to, or mychild or my parent.
Kat (29:20):
right, right.
Val (29:21):
Let me, let me put the defense down enough so I can
take a peek.
Right?
So again, breaking the analogy.
I love to beat an analogy todeath.
You know, we see someone coming,we put up the Drawbridge, but
then like we have to at leastopen the people to see who it
is.
Cuz maybe they're bringingsupplies.
Maybe it's our friendlyneighbor.
Right.
Or maybe it, it is an enemy.
(29:42):
Right.
And.
And then maybe that's where wemove to boundaries.
Like, Nope, sorry, you can'ttreat me this way.
But then we just lower that justa little bit to see like, Hmm.
What are they talking about?
Yeah.
And then being able to.
Handle we go back to distresstolerance.
It doesn't feel great to have amirror put up or someone to say,
Hey, I don't really like whenyou do this or this hurts me.
(30:03):
Or I think this is an area thatis affecting our relationship
Kat (30:07):
right.
Val (30:08):
You're leaving yourself exposed.
Kat (30:10):
Mm.
You know, I'm, I'm thinkingabout this analogy too, and
seeing the picture it's sovivid, but like the other thing
is, is that.
Val (30:17):
the
Kat (30:18):
reason why we actually want to choose vulnerability is
because otherwise you're left inisolation.
You know, if every, you know,everything that we could
potentially understand is athreat, the Drawbridge goes up
you're a fucking alone.
You know?
Yes.
And that's the part, I thinkabout, you know, the choices
(30:40):
that I made, especially as itrelates to family origin and the
kind of boundaries that I dohave.
And then in, in presentrelationships in my life, I, I
don't have anyone in my life.
That's injuring me in thoseways.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm, like, because I said,no.
I said, no, I have boundaries topeople.
But in, in my own healing andlike discovering this, pocket of
pain or whatever, like I got offthe phone with you and then I
(31:02):
still was like, Messy.
And I was like, what the fuck isthis?
And so I checked in with myother friend, who's a therapist
Val (31:14):
and we're gonna get by with a little help from our friends
who are therapists
Kat (31:18):
of help of our friends.
Yeah.
It took me talking out loud withmy other friend before I was
like, oh shit, it was, it was alot of pain.
It was a pocket of pain.
That's a really helpful, I'mglad we found that.
Mm-hmm language for it.
Mm-hmm because.
And then I was re resistant inall these things, but then
eventually I was like, oh fuck,there's a lie here.
And so, like, I only had 10minutes to talk to my friend,
(31:40):
but I was like, I was like, Goddamnit, motherfucker.
You know?
And then I was laughing and Iwas like, I'm so resistant to
feeling any of this.
I'm so mad that this is actuallyhere.
I don't want it.
These are the things I'm sayingto my friend mm-hmm but I'm
also.
But God damn it.
I feel better.
like, I feel better cuz forwhatever reason, the way I made,
(32:02):
like I would much rather feelsomething, even if it's painful
than to feel numb or feelnothing.
That's why I spent all theseyears trying to heal because I
don't like feeling alone.
And the only way to not feelalone, Val is to find the safe
people.
yeah.
And let the goddamn draw bridgedown
Val (32:19):
but, and with safe people, they want you to be vulnerable
too, right?
Yeah.
Cause if you wanna have a mutualrelationship, right.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
You took the straight line fromvulnerability all the way to
isolation, which I agree becauseI, I was talking to a client
once.
Their boyfriend and we're gonnatalk about personality in the
next couple episodes, but theirpartner was like at any gram
(32:39):
nine, which is very, like,they're mergers.
They don't wanna disrupt thepiece.
They have a hard time connectingto their own.
They just want everyone else tobe happy.
And it was just so interestingthat like that fear of upsetting
people.
Right, right.
Was actually going to maybeisolate this person because
their partner actually wantedthem to be messy.
They wanted to hear theiremotions.
They wanted them to speak up Soit's just very interesting.
(33:02):
What we think is gonna keep ussafe or what we think is going
to keep us at that homeostasis,that piece can actually isolate
us.
Right.
Kat (33:10):
Totally.
Yeah.
Val (33:11):
This is something I say a lot is like, okay, when you're
fighting, you're bickering witha partner, I always say, go, go
a step deeper.
What is it really about?
Kat (33:19):
Mm,
Val (33:20):
Okay.
It's about, you don't want to doX, Y, Z.
And, and if you can take therisk, so there's risk in
vulnerability.
Oh yeah.
There's pain.
Yeah.
Because I think that we're alsoafraid that we're unlovable or
that we don't like this thingabout ourselves.
But if you take that risk to godeeper, it's like, okay, you're
mad that your partner's doingthis, but what what's really
(33:41):
underneath that.
And that usually if you speakthat and then if you have
courage, let's say to actuallytell your partner that Then
you're bringing down theDrawbridge, right.
Then you're exposing rightyourself and you are allowing
your partner to really know youbetter and understand what it
actually is.
(34:02):
That is upsetting you.
Yeah.
Kat (34:03):
Well, thank you, Val, cuz this has been really helpful.
and like it's funny lots oftimes we check in after, you
know, we put an episode out andI just was like, fuck this was
something that was a bit of acatalyst.
And like again, unearthing apocket of pain, which.
Unbearable, but then it turnsout the scariness, it's not
(34:25):
actually unbearable.
Right?
And like, you know, you lowerthe Drawbridge and you let the
safe people in and then you getto say out loud, whatever the
hard thing is.
And you're like, it starts todissipate pretty quickly when
you've got, when you're, whenyou're fortunate to have safe
people in your life to look atit with you and hold space with
you.
Mm-hmm then.
it makes the vulnerability worthit, you know, and again, like
(34:48):
right now, sitting here at thetable, I feel less alone than I
did, like in my bed, justfeeling like this sort of dread
and, and like overwhelmed.
Val (34:57):
Mm-hmm
Kat (34:58):
and it, took you and another person.
And then me deciding like, okay,I'm gonna look at this.
I could have numbed out.
I could have just like made someother choices, you know, and,
and I'm not saying that thoseare always bad to do, you know,
sometimes you just gotta fuckingput it on the side burner and
get through whatever you useurgent to do.
Right.
And we've all done that.
That's, that's an okay thing todo, but.
(35:20):
Sometimes when we have thespaciousness for it, like to
actually meet it where it is,and, and be present with what
shows up for us.
And then again, the deeppractice of authenticity and
vulnerability is, is choosing toallow this safe relationship in
your life to witness you
Val (35:37):
mm-hmm
Kat (35:38):
to hold space for you and ultimately to make you feel less
alone.
Val (35:42):
Yeah.
It's a.
Rewarding risk when, done withsafe people and or even just
trusting yourself that you canexpose some of the parts of you
that are tender, but like those,like our private parts are more,
sensitive.
We have to treat them more withcare, right?
(36:03):
Like.
I have a neighbor who, who nakedwater skis.
And I don't really understandwhy that's a good idea.
cause there's some realvulnerable parts
Kat (36:11):
that
Val (36:11):
I think really should maybe have a little more coverage.
Kat (36:14):
Right.
Val (36:15):
So those vulnerable parts we treat with more care, right.
And so we know that there's abigger risk when we expose them.
Right.
That's where the deep work comesin our relationships and our
relationship to ourself is whenwe're like, okay, I know I'm
exposing this more vulnerable,more delicate thing.
And that brings up a whole bunchof feelings.
The price of, of vulnerability,it can feel high, especially if
(36:37):
we're not used
Kat (36:38):
to
Val (36:39):
revealing those more tender parts of ourselves and our
emotions.
Part of those more tender partsthat we don't expose to
everyone.
Right?
Those are real.
Sometimes they're very private.
Sometimes we talk about them ona podcast, but There's such
reward in trusting yourself thatyou can, tolerate the distress
(37:00):
that might come up.
Yeah.
About exposing the things aboutyourself that maybe you don't
like as much, or these deepneeds yeah.
Or feelings or the ways you'vebeen hurt, but the reward for
that.
Yeah.
Especially interpersonally orthe relationship with yourself
can be so great.
Kat (37:18):
Well, I, I think that's the thing that keeps motivating me
too, is the reward is thenyou're not alone.
Right.
And the beauty of like, I don'tknow why it's so important to
me, but like the fact that Icould really know myself feels
powerful and big.
And, and then so the quest toknow myself fully and to be
(37:40):
known right by people who I loveand care about.
Val (37:43):
It's such a beautiful feeling I think that is that's
at the core.
I think of, most of us.
There's a beautiful quote aboutthe best way to love someone is
to let them fully be themselves.
Mm-hmm
Kat (37:55):
mm-hmm right, right.
Yeah.
Val (37:56):
I think one of those questions that we're, we kind of
all have, or this desire we haveis like, am I acceptable and
loving
Kat (38:04):
right.
Val (38:05):
as I am.
Kat (38:06):
Right.
Fully.
Yeah.
Val (38:08):
and all.
Kat (38:08):
Yeah.
As I am.
And frailed Al I think that'sthe other thing like to, to own
that we have need, or that westill have pain or that we need,
we need the extra caresometimes.
Yeah.
Thank you for providing extracare for me
Val (38:21):
Ah, extra care.
Aw.
Well thank you, KA for sharing.
And dear friends.
Kat (38:32):
Good luck.
Val (38:36):
Just little encouragements, you know, if, you're wanting to
try and be just a little bitmore vulnerable than you usually
are, you know, just start small,start with something that maybe
you would think, but then youwould stop yourself from
sharing.
Kat (38:47):
Mm.
Yeah.
Val (38:48):
maybe you're on the surface and you go, well, what's one
level deeper, right?
Or even just the first step oflike who are the.
Safe people in your life.
Mm-hmm, that's important too, toknow.
Absolutely.
Who do you share that with?
Yeah, thanks for sharing cap.
Love you.
Kat (39:03):
love me.
Val (39:04):
Bye.
Love you.
Bye
You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm
Kat and I'm bow.
We've been friends for over 20years.
Thousands of therapists and catsand artists.
We're both great talkers.
And we're both XFN delicacy whoused to pastor gay.
Now we both have chronicillnesses.
We think we're fuckinghilarious.
Kat (00:33):
Good
Val (00:34):
Good morning.
Good morning.
Kat (00:35):
Hi, Val.
Val (00:36):
Hi cats.
Kat (00:39):
I am very grateful to be in your home today.
it was hard to get out of
Val (00:44):
my neighborhood.
Kat (00:44):
Yeah.
I love it here.
It was very hard to get out ofmy bed.
I got my kids up and out forschool today, which was pretty
easy.
Yeah, no, they're doing so good.
The kids are doing so good aboutthat.
We started back at schoolobviously and yeah.
And then I was like, Fuck.
And I crawled right back in mybed and I was like, oh my God.
(01:06):
And it is one of those thingswhere I, I was like, oh my God,
I think I need some dopamine orsomething.
Like usually podcast day is mymost favorite day.
And so I'm always energized onpodcast day.
Yeah.
So to be.
I wanna hide under my coversindefinitely.
And it was also podcast day.
I was like, oh no, existentialcrisis.
Val (01:31):
poor widow, cat.
Kat (01:32):
I know.
So I called you and what did Iask you?
What I ask
Val (01:36):
said yell at me.
So I get out of my bed.
And then you're like yell a
Kat (01:40):
harder.
Val (01:41):
I was like, oh geez, you want dopamine?
Don't you?
Yes,
Kat (01:46):
you?
mean, you taught us all thesegood tricks about how to get
dopamine sometimes.
Oh my God.
That's hilarious.
I'm
Val (01:54):
actually really impressed and proud of you.
Because you.
We're able to get what you need.
You're like, I need anotherhuman to like intervene into my
cocooning.
I'm gonna cocoon in 3, 2, 1.
And you stopped to processyourself so well done.
Well, that's a really goodskill.
Kat (02:12):
Oh, thank you.
I have gotten, I have gottenpretty okay at like, asking for
help when I need it, but it justwas honestly like dis
unsettling.
It was unsettling.
I didn't like it.
That I was.
I don't think I'm doing greattoday.
And the truth is, is.
Val (02:28):
is that
Kat (02:30):
Today.
We're gonna talk aboutvulnerability and I
Val (02:35):
It's your favorite topic, KA.
Well, okay.
Also, this is what I love aboutyou.
And I'm also puzzled by quitehonestly, cuz you're like I
could barely get outta bed.
Some stuff swooping around forme.
I, I think I could tell by yourface, you've got some, some
heavy emotions inside.
You're like, so let's just goand talk about vulnerability but
(02:57):
I think, you know, the releaseis good too, but
Kat (02:59):
I know, well, I don't know what I think that might be like
my fire sign, like, right.
So I have like all, all my signsare fire signs.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Astrology.
So
Val (03:10):
just running well, and you also,
Kat (03:11):
so you run into it.
That's what I'm saying.
I have a tendency to run intoshit, which Anyway.
Yeah.
You know, so this is threequestions with cat and Val.
And so our three questions are,you know, what's bringing you
pleasure.
What are you learning?
And I love those questions and Ireally also love what is moving
around for you.
But sometimes when, what ismoving around for us is.
(03:33):
Is the hard and the deep yeah.
You're like, come on,motherfucker.
Yeah.
Like again, really still morewhat,
Val (03:41):
more?
Yeah.
More healing.
Kat (03:43):
Yeah.
Val (03:44):
shifting.
Kat (03:45):
Yeah.
And so, you know, last week wetalked about like, you know, the
title of last week's episode isfamily ties.
And we, we spent like a longtime talking about family war
and stuff.
Right.
Yeah.
And I like.
Had that moment in the lastepisode where I, like, I started
to cry a little bit, cuzeverybody knows now that I cry
like a motherfucker, but like Iwas like, oh yeah, I remember
(04:06):
like I was kind of young and Imade this vow to myself
Val (04:09):
before
Kat (04:09):
all of, all of the trauma, all the bullshit, all of the,
the family of origin stuff.
It stops, it stops with me.
And so.
I'm 44, right?
I'm gonna be 45 this year.
Val (04:22):
Mm-hmm
Kat (04:22):
I was, I was in my late teens when I made this kind of
like, really significant, likevow to myself and I have been
like incredibly diligent aboutmy own,
Val (04:36):
healing.
Kat (04:36):
More so than most humans I've ever interacted with, I've
been like, this is the thingthat I have got to do.
I just want to be whole right.
Mm-hmm And several years ago Iwas like, Hey, I am whole, now I
just have to feel all of mygoddamn mother fucking feelings
And so I've made this commitmentto myself, like to like, you
(04:59):
know, to live in this amount ofauthenticity and to.
Val (05:03):
not
Kat (05:04):
be constantly relying on these old coping mechanisms.
He served me for a while.
Mm-hmm one of the biggest oneswas being pleasing, you know?
And so I feel also frustrated.
Like there's still all thenormal human stuff that shows up
in me.
Like, I, I do feel like I'mwhole, but like somehow talking
about family boards and stuff,it just, I don't know.
(05:26):
It was like, I'm so mad aboutit.
because I wanted it to be allhealed and tied up with a pretty
bow Val.
Yeah.
Val (05:35):
And
Kat (05:35):
It, it feels frustrating to me to be like, what?
It's, there's still pockets ofpain.
Come on.
And so that's I'm, I don't wantthat to be how it is.
I, I want it to be like, we healit all the way and we're
thorough and we're kind toourselves and we live in self
(05:56):
compassion.
This is all this shit I reallydo.
And I really practice.
So, so why Valerie
Val (06:04):
oh boy.
Kat (06:05):
why is there still more?
Why is
Val (06:07):
this works?
Kat (06:08):
Do you have any, do you have any thoughts on that?
Val (06:11):
fuck
Kat (06:12):
cute.
Val (06:14):
You know
Kat (06:14):
you relate to that frustration though?
Val (06:16):
you know, it's so interesting.
We've been doing this podcast,the episodes that I was more
concerned about.
I'm like, okay, that wasn't sobad.
And, and I felt good about them,you know, I was just looking on,
on social media this morning andwhat I'm noticing a lot.
And again, right.
People and their messages and,and, and saying something that's
(06:37):
interesting.
I just see a lot of peoplethought leaders.
I don't even know if they'rehealers, but they're talking a
lot about like, Hey, you don'talways have to be healing.
Yeah.
Like stop this.
Like, you know, you're okay.
Right.
Like, and, and, and actuallythis one was very nuanced, but
it was like, Hey, you.
It's just gonna happen naturallyfrom now on.
(06:58):
And so it was very, no, it's notyou're wrong.
so to be here today, I know, youknow, in the last episode two,
you talked about just Well, andwe're gonna talk about
vulnerability, but just thatlike openness that you're, you
know, I think you were recallingback to how I seem to come
undone during music sometimes,and just being very sensitive
(07:21):
and open and feeling and I dowonder if that's part of it that
you are creating a space where,well, you said you, you vowed to
yourself.
I need to feel all my fuckingfeelings.
So I don't know.
I mean, I always talk abouthealing is layers and yeah.
Pockets.
I kind of like that, that too.
Kat (07:39):
Yeah.
I've been watching stuffrecently.
Maybe these are mostly likeInstagram and tos, but like
people are talking about likehow, you know, somatic therapy,
like sometimes pain is lodged onour body.
Right.
And then I've been trying tomove my body in ways that are
you know, helping it, you know,Have have more range of motion
and things like that.
(08:00):
And so then I just happened tosee one today where like someone
is like, you know, trying to dothis like deep hip stretch to
unlock inner healing so they canfinally heal.
And I definitely hear whatyou're saying about like, we
don't have to be constantlyhealing all the time.
And, and I would say that thishappened organically where I was
like, dude, to do.
I'm good.
I'm good.
And then all of a sudden, youknow, our conversation, it feels
(08:21):
like.
One of the things out of a, alittle series of things that
sort of poked at some just oldthings.
Val (08:29):
Yeah.
Kat (08:30):
And I just, I think that I have to now, like we even had an
episode on re resistance and Iwas like, I have to acknowledge
how deep my own resistance is tothis reality.
The reality being there is thereare still within me, places that
feel extremely tender and relateall the way back to family
(08:51):
boards and stuff.
And.
That's that's okay.
It's it's not pleasant cuz
Val (08:59):
Mm-hmm
Kat (09:00):
in some ways my resistance is the, the safety mechanism of
like
Val (09:05):
ow,
Kat (09:05):
OE.
Val (09:06):
this is as much as I can handle.
Kat (09:08):
Yeah.
And like, Hey motherfucker.
I thought you know, like again,like a coping mechanism, one of
mine is like, Hey, I'm an, astudent in my own healing.
Right.
And I'm like, I, eh, I tried mybest you know, like.
I thought I did all thisalready.
And so when there's still more,that shows up, I'm like, come
(09:29):
on, like, you know, Everybody'sgot their sad story.
If, if I'm working this hard totry to be, you know, whole what
the fuck, the whole Y ofhumanity, every evolve I zoom
out too much and I'm like, andthen comes to despair.
Val (09:48):
fair.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, no, no.
Zoom back in cat.
zoom back in.
It's too much.
It's too
Kat (09:53):
much.
Val (09:54):
too much.
Yeah.
Maybe there's some resistance oflike, wow, I've worked so hard.
Yeah.
I've, I've gone through the painof healing.
Yeah.
I, I resist the idea thatthere's more, or that I'll be
affected again.
This was supposed to be healedup.
Kat (10:12):
yeah.
So yes, exactly.
That like, that's exactly what'shappening.
And then what, one of the thingsthat, like I noticed, like
really started to like pushagainst that resistance.
This is a few weeks ago now.
There is a, like a, a person inthe public eye.
I don't wanna name who they are.
Val (10:29):
but
Kat (10:30):
there's someone who I followed their work for a long
time and I respect them.
And in some ways I reallyidentify with them.
Mm-hmm and they were recentlysharing that they've got like,
they're probably in theirfifties.
I think that they they decidedto like get involved in a 12
step program that they felt likethey needed to.
And I was like, what the fuck?
(10:53):
Cause I was like, Good for you,but also like I thought, I, I
thought we heal.
I thought we heal enough.
I thought that at 50, in ourfifties, we won't still be
stumbling into something whereyou're like, oh yeah, I gotta, I
gotta do this still pro 12 stepprogram.
You know what I mean?
(11:13):
Like.
Val (11:13):
work to do
Kat (11:15):
Big work.
I, I just, it, it reallydiscombobulated me cuz I, I was
like smooth sailing.
Val (11:23):
Oh.
Kat (11:23):
that's what I thought.
Val (11:25):
Oh, maybe it's resistance to the, like the, the future of
smooth sailing.
Kat (11:31):
I want
Val (11:32):
to believe,
Kat (11:33):
I mean, so what it is is it's challenging a belief,
right?
Yeah.
It's challenging a deeply heldbelief that maybe was a little
bit unconscious.
Like I didn't necessarily knowthat I was like, this is my
worldview know, like, I, I, I doall this.
I lean in, I press in hard.
We're gonna be whole, we'regonna heal.
We're gonna cultivate community.
We're gonna have the life wewant.
And then you get to reap thebenefits of that, which does not
(11:55):
include another crisis thateventually you.
And I need to go to a 12 stepprogram.
It's not that it nullifies allthe other work, but I guess I.
I think the emotion I wasfeeling was like, does that
nullify everything else?
Oh, you see what I'm saying?
Val (12:11):
yeah,
Kat (12:12):
I feel bad that I had these perfectionist ideas.
There were sneaky littlemotherfuckers they're in there
and then they're gettingchallenged.
I'm getting all likediscombobulated, mad.
Val (12:23):
I mean, not to dig at you anymore, but
Kat (12:26):
but
Val (12:27):
I'm wondering, and I'm just wondering if, because it's part
of your identity.
Right.
It's part of your identity thatlike I am the healer, I have
healed myself.
Yeah.
But I wonder if that challengesyour, your identity, I decided
to really hyperfocus on mydevelopment
Kat (12:43):
and.
Val (12:45):
Oh,
Kat (12:45):
and oh fuck.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, honestly, there'sbeen several points in my life
where it feels like the floorfalls out.
And so then you are like, whatAnd so I guess to be really
vulnerable, you know, like Iwanna be someone that really is.
(13:07):
Living and practicing, you know,all the things that I say,
right.
That's important to me.
Mm-hmm And so I know that I havedone a lot of work to get to
this point.
I know that I have healedsignificantly and I have
beautiful, healthy relationshipsin my life.
And I, you know, I have a reallystrong relationship with my
children and genuine mean likethose things are true, but I
(13:30):
think when, when older pain isunearthed, And you feel like a
child all over again, you know,you feel small and you feel
scared.
Like the big really, really likebase feelings.
It can, it can make me feellike.
(13:51):
Oh, my God has, has any of thisbeen
Val (13:53):
real works real mm-hmm
Kat (13:55):
Yeah.
And so in that, and it feelslike a crisis to have that, that
much emotion just show up, youknow, and Yeah.
And so like in those moments,the zooming out is what's the
most helpful, right?
Of like, okay,
Val (14:13):
yeah, this
Kat (14:13):
the first time I'm like, this has happened.
Mm-hmm it's just that I thought,I don't know, Val.
I thought we get to a placewhere we, where this stops being
part of the story and maybe thatjust is wrong.
Maybe it's just wrong aboutthat.
I had a belief that was kind ofan unchecked belief right.
Val (14:30):
Ah,
Kat (14:31):
perfectionism and, or.
I shouldn't have to deal withthis fucking shit anymore.
Val (14:37):
yeah.
Or maybe even like the reasonwhy you work so hard to heal is
so that the rest of your lifecan be UN painful.
Yeah.
Or like you're done with it.
Yeah.
Let me, maybe the belief is Idid all this hard work.
Yeah.
So that the rest of the time Idon't have to,
Kat (14:51):
yeah.
Val (14:51):
could, it could be less pain.
Well, sure.
Yeah, sure.
Of course.
Of course, that sounds perfectlylogical.
Kat (15:00):
Like I have you know, you watch TV or movies or whatever,
and you watch you know, folkswho are, you know, our age, but
their parents are still anactive parental role in their
life as opposed to like my wholelife.
I, I didn't feel like my parentswere very Per parental mm-hmm,
you know, mm-hmm I was you know,fiercely independent at a young
age cuz I kind of had to be.
And so I didn't really grow upwith that.
(15:21):
Like the, the, the feeling oflike an older wiser person has
got
Val (15:26):
mm mm.
Kat (15:29):
And that that's, what's showing up.
And I remember just months,months ago watching a movie and.
Someone was sort of talkingabout feeling orphaned.
And I was like, that's sointeresting.
I have no desire for that roleto be filled and I was like, oh,
(15:50):
I've evolved so far.
I don't need a parent And sothat's not, not true, but also I
think it's the both and right oflike, I
Val (16:04):
hadn't,
Kat (16:06):
I don't know, sat with this in a long, long time.
So I didn't see
Val (16:11):
it mm-hmm
Kat (16:12):
so it didn't feel like a reality that I was, you know,
wrestling with.
And then I don't know, very oldgrief showed up.
Right.
And I think that's, what'sreally interesting about our own
healing journey is like whenyou're a child.
You're gonna do whatever youneed to do to survive.
(16:32):
And so one of my copingmechanisms, one that many of us
use is you just, you bury shitand you find a way to move
through.
And so I chose to be pleasingand it worked, it served me for
many years, but then to undothat and to like, Integrate.
And so that's what I feel likeis happening.
Like even this morning,actually, when I was showering
(16:54):
there was just some old, someimagery of like where I had
buried rage because it wasn't, Icouldn't, there was no safe
outlet for it.
So I had to bury it as a youngyoung kid.
Val (17:07):
Mm.
Kat (17:08):
And so I, it showed up in one of my meditations as like
this ward hog actually.
And along with like a child, ayounger version of me and today
in the shower, I I, I saw thatthose were two parts of the same
and I was like, oh, that needsto be integrated.
(17:31):
You know, it's just messy.
Val (17:32):
though.
Kat (17:34):
Yes.
And then it feels so fuckingtender.
And here we are like, again, thesubject is vulnerability and I
think this is why I wanted tostart off with that today was
that, I don't know if it's justhow I'm wired.
It's not comfortable to be thisvulnerable.
It's not, it's uncomfortable.
Val (17:51):
Mm-hmm
Kat (17:52):
but I have learned enough to know that, like to say things
out loud and to have a kindwitness to what is
uncomfortable.
Helps it, it makes us feel lessalone and it I don't know.
I, again, like, I I'm resistantto like trying to find some,
some math equation or to make itpretty, cuz it's not pretty
(18:14):
right now.
Mm-hmm doesn't feel prettyright.
So vulnerability is not prettyand it's not, it's a practice
that adds richness and depth toour relationships.
Mm-hmm
Val (18:24):
and it
Kat (18:25):
It's fucking risky, you know,
Val (18:28):
It is risky it's
Kat (18:29):
it's and brave,
Val (18:31):
mm-hmm yeah.
Yeah.
Kat (18:34):
But if we, if we want a life where we feel like we're
able to show up all the way withourselves and tell the truth to
ourselves and then share thatwith other people.
Val (18:47):
Mm.
Kat (18:47):
don't know.
I still, I think this, this isnot very eloquent, but these are
the choices that I've made.
I, this is I'm too committed tothe life that I want to stop
risking shit now.
Mm mm.
Val (19:03):
when you were talking about burying rage and you were
talking about pockets, I guess Ijust wondered is that sort of a
great picture for what you'reexperiencing, that you had to
bury things and, and as you'rehealing, and as time goes on,
these little things you'veburied are kind of popping up
and these pockets.
(19:25):
You know, are showing up
Kat (19:26):
yeah, yeah.
Val (19:28):
And they're kind of coming up in, in different times.
Kat (19:32):
It's interesting too, cuz things are, you know, we're
really skilled at finding a wayto survive hard shit, you know?
And so some of this stuff isjust.
So far down there, you know, andthen it does require a lot of
time and attention and effortand stillness in order to like,
make it emerging even possible,you know?
Val (19:55):
Well, I think that is the hard work that you are committed
to is to make space for it.
Yeah.
For these things to emerge.
Kat (20:02):
Yeah.
But also it was really funny torealize how like pissed off I
was, that it existed still, youknow?
Val (20:12):
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well now you're releasing thatrage.
You have the space.
Yeah.
To be able to release
Kat (20:18):
live on air
Val (20:23):
well,
Kat (20:24):
it's not exactly live, but like, it's funny that I'm like,
it feels, it is a little weirdto be like, this does feel like
a conversation I would have witha therapist.
And I'm like, it's funny thatwe're it.
oh, Jesus.
Val (20:40):
Well, since you're laughing, it's a good place to
stop for commercials.
Mm.
Kat (20:44):
Mm.
Good idea.
Yeah, let's stop
Val (20:46):
okay.
That felt good.
It felt good in your body.
Am I rushing commercials again?
When you're all vulnerable?
Kat (20:52):
Oh
Val (20:52):
Okay.
We'll we'll take a break forcommercials.
We'll come back and we'll getright back into talk more about
vulnerability.
Kat (20:59):
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Val (21:58):
Okay, we're back.
And one thing I was gonna say,yeah, and I was like, no, Val
end on the end on the laughter
Kat (22:04):
then say
Val (22:05):
a, a touching thing.
Kat (22:07):
Oh.
A touching thing.
Val (22:08):
but I guess so I know that what, what, you're the trigger
from last episode was that yousaid, well, this, this ends with
me, right.
And I guess I just want to say,I recognize that I really think
you've done that.
Kat (22:20):
Yeah.
It's funny.
You just said this sentence andit just, my eyes just welled
with tears,
Val (22:26):
mm,
Kat (22:26):
the
Val (22:28):
like
Kat (22:29):
the magnitude of it, you know, I feel like it's, there's
just this like energy in my bodythat like,
Val (22:36):
it's
Kat (22:37):
A lot had to end with me.
It's a little bit bigger thanmy, my immediate family of
origin.
It it's their family and theirparents and their parents.
And
Val (22:45):
there's so
Kat (22:46):
much right.
Val (22:48):
Ugh.
Kat (22:49):
since I was pretty young, Val, I remember being like
really intrigued by the questionof suffering, right?
Like why, why does sufferingexist in the world?
You know, and I remember I hadan acquaintance, well, a friend
really who I knew that they hadlost a sibling.
Val (23:07):
Mm.
Kat (23:07):
And yeah, I was like seeking them out to have these
conversations.
I just wanted to understand,like, how did you cope or heal
or what did that grief, how wasthat for you?
And I, I don't know why I'vealways been so.
Interested in that, you know,and like CS Lewis writes about
it.
It feels like this, like sort ofone of those questions, many
people like grapple with, youknow, like what is the purpose
(23:30):
of suffering in the world?
You know?
And Christianity said thatsuffering was a result of sin.
And that doesn't resonate withme anymore.
Val (23:37):
Mm.
Kat (23:38):
And so now I feel like I have to find some new, you know,
again, like if the idea of like,when you have a world, you are a
belief system.
This is what's interesting aboutbeliefs is that when they're
challenged and you're open andyou're open to be like, well,
maybe there is more informationnow.
Right?
So then to have.
Val (23:57):
to reorganize
Kat (24:00):
again, after you've had a challenge to a belief, you know
can be jarring and painful rightthere after leaving
fundamentalist, Christianity,and then Christianity together.
I found myself really attractedto like Buddhist thought or
doism and you know, some ofthese other really ancient
(24:21):
worldviews and one of.
Talks a lot about non-belief andso like being so open handed
with everything that you you'reopen to, everything you believe,
everything mm-hmm and youbelieve nothing at the same
time.
Mm-hmm which that really feelsgood to me because I feel like
for me, it's the the pendulumand swing away from
fundamentalism or dogmaticthinking.
Yeah.
And what's interesting is that.
(24:44):
I think the human condition, wecan't help ourselves from
formulating beliefs.
You know, like the belief that Iobviously had of like, Hey, I do
all this work, you know, I'mgonna be like, good, good to go.
Now you know, like no moresuffering.
Val (25:01):
Well, it helps us organize our experience and make sense of
things.
Right.
Kat (25:05):
Yeah.
And I mean, maybe I'm not a verygood, spokesperson for like
inner healing.
I'm like crying.
I'm like, Ooh, it all hurtsstill.
I'm like rah RA don't you wannabe healed too?
Val (25:17):
Well, I mean, that's, that's why I brought it back to
you have disrupted thosegenerational sufferings.
Like you have yeah.
Changed your children.
I see them.
Your children are experiencingyou know, the love and the
safety of childhood.
Kat (25:32):
Right, right.
Val (25:33):
You've done that work to disrupt that.
Yeah.
Kat (25:36):
I just thought we get to an end point and maybe that's the
belief that is being challenged.
Val (25:42):
Yeah.
Kat (25:42):
so the fact that I feel some grief and pain and
discomfort now, and it's notsmall, I'm trying to like.
Be able to still have aconversation, right.
It's not small.
Right.
And so that's why it feels likea crisis mm-hmm So to find a new
pocket, you know, there's somesong about a pocket full of
(26:05):
sunshine.
I'm like motherfucker
Val (26:07):
I have a pocket full of trauma and grief and suffering
in deep, deep, painful emotions.
So take your pocket and shoveit.
oh, friend.
You have left yourselfvulnerable and open right.
To, to feeling these things and.
I mean, that's the essence ofvulnerability in that, you know
(26:29):
which is you're allowingyourselves to, you're taking
your defenses down.
right
Kat (26:34):
you say that again?
Val (26:35):
Well, to be vulnerable is to, is to allow your defenses to
go down.
Yeah.
And you're making yourself well,we use the word vulnerable.
I always love to look at aconcrete, you know, example to
kind of help us understand theemotional, but you leave, we
leave yourself.
Oh, you, you know that countryleft himself vulnerable to
attack or, you know,
Kat (26:54):
mm-hmm.
Val (26:55):
The the, the new game of Thrones, a spinoff is just
coming up and so such it castleswith like moats and all that
kind of stuff.
Right?
Like when you're vulnerable,your exposed you're open.
And that can be painful.
Kat (27:09):
Yeah.
It's interesting because youknow, the more healing you do
than you get to like, learnabout good boundaries too.
And so like the differencebetween like a coping mechanism,
which is a fortress
Val (27:20):
Mm.
Kat (27:21):
and then healing enough so that you're like, oh, here are
boundaries.
And it's boundary is differentthan like creating a fortress
where you, you, you.
Wall yourself in, you know
Val (27:33):
yeah.
You know, my work with couples,we talk a lot about defenses and
sort of the things that stopCommunication and getting to
the, the meat of the matter.
Right.
Mm-hmm And so I just talk about,you know, defenses, they are
just natural in all of us.
Right.
Like, and to continue theanalogy like, oh, someone's
(27:56):
coming in a distance put up theDrawbridge, like we don't know
them.
They could be friend or foe.
Right.
Like, like automatic.
Like I think in the beginning Icarried a lot of shame of like,
oh, I don't know if I'm reallyenjoying my marriage, but I'm a
marriage therapist, right?
Like that pressure of likehaving a perfect relationship
(28:16):
but even if you are trying touse all the tools you're
teaching other people, we'rejust human and our natural
impulse, our first response isto put up a defense when we're
threatened.
Yeah.
Right.
Shove it down.
Or, or.
Tell people the fuck off So likein, in, in working with couples,
(28:37):
right, your partner comes andsays like, ouch, or, Hey, this
isn't working for me or, or Ireally have a hard time when
this happens.
Usually it's the automatic firstI have to protect myself.
You're telling me I'm bad.
You're telling me I didsomething wrong.
Right.
You're this is, this is painful.
I'm gonna have to look atmyself.
It's going to affect the way Isee myself, my own ego.
(28:59):
Right.
To protect the way we seeourself, because we all wanna
believe like, Hey, we're, we'reokay.
we're lovable.
Right.
I think a lot of it all goesback to that.
So it's that practice of sayingoh, okay.
Recognizing that nonjudgmentalnoticing.
Yeah.
Oh, My partner's trying to gimmesome information.
Yeah.
Or my friend is trying to, or mychild or my parent.
Kat (29:20):
right, right.
Val (29:21):
Let me, let me put the defense down enough so I can
take a peek.
Right?
So again, breaking the analogy.
I love to beat an analogy todeath.
You know, we see someone coming,we put up the Drawbridge, but
then like we have to at leastopen the people to see who it
is.
Cuz maybe they're bringingsupplies.
Maybe it's our friendlyneighbor.
Right.
Or maybe it, it is an enemy.
(29:42):
Right.
And.
And then maybe that's where wemove to boundaries.
Like, Nope, sorry, you can'ttreat me this way.
But then we just lower that justa little bit to see like, Hmm.
What are they talking about?
Yeah.
And then being able to.
Handle we go back to distresstolerance.
It doesn't feel great to have amirror put up or someone to say,
Hey, I don't really like whenyou do this or this hurts me.
(30:03):
Or I think this is an area thatis affecting our relationship
Kat (30:07):
right.
Val (30:08):
You're leaving yourself exposed.
Kat (30:10):
Mm.
You know, I'm, I'm thinkingabout this analogy too, and
seeing the picture it's sovivid, but like the other thing
is, is that.
Val (30:17):
the
Kat (30:18):
reason why we actually want to choose vulnerability is
because otherwise you're left inisolation.
You know, if every, you know,everything that we could
potentially understand is athreat, the Drawbridge goes up
you're a fucking alone.
You know?
Yes.
And that's the part, I thinkabout, you know, the choices
(30:40):
that I made, especially as itrelates to family origin and the
kind of boundaries that I dohave.
And then in, in presentrelationships in my life, I, I
don't have anyone in my life.
That's injuring me in thoseways.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm, like, because I said,no.
I said, no, I have boundaries topeople.
But in, in my own healing andlike discovering this, pocket of
pain or whatever, like I got offthe phone with you and then I
(31:02):
still was like, Messy.
And I was like, what the fuck isthis?
And so I checked in with myother friend, who's a therapist
Val (31:14):
and we're gonna get by with a little help from our friends
who are therapists
Kat (31:18):
of help of our friends.
Yeah.
It took me talking out loud withmy other friend before I was
like, oh shit, it was, it was alot of pain.
It was a pocket of pain.
That's a really helpful, I'mglad we found that.
Mm-hmm language for it.
Mm-hmm because.
And then I was re resistant inall these things, but then
eventually I was like, oh fuck,there's a lie here.
And so, like, I only had 10minutes to talk to my friend,
(31:40):
but I was like, I was like, Goddamnit, motherfucker.
You know?
And then I was laughing and Iwas like, I'm so resistant to
feeling any of this.
I'm so mad that this is actuallyhere.
I don't want it.
These are the things I'm sayingto my friend mm-hmm but I'm
also.
But God damn it.
I feel better.
like, I feel better cuz forwhatever reason, the way I made,
(32:02):
like I would much rather feelsomething, even if it's painful
than to feel numb or feelnothing.
That's why I spent all theseyears trying to heal because I
don't like feeling alone.
And the only way to not feelalone, Val is to find the safe
people.
yeah.
And let the goddamn draw bridgedown
Val (32:19):
but, and with safe people, they want you to be vulnerable
too, right?
Yeah.
Cause if you wanna have a mutualrelationship, right.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
You took the straight line fromvulnerability all the way to
isolation, which I agree becauseI, I was talking to a client
once.
Their boyfriend and we're gonnatalk about personality in the
next couple episodes, but theirpartner was like at any gram
(32:39):
nine, which is very, like,they're mergers.
They don't wanna disrupt thepiece.
They have a hard time connectingto their own.
They just want everyone else tobe happy.
And it was just so interestingthat like that fear of upsetting
people.
Right, right.
Was actually going to maybeisolate this person because
their partner actually wantedthem to be messy.
They wanted to hear theiremotions.
They wanted them to speak up Soit's just very interesting.
(33:02):
What we think is gonna keep ussafe or what we think is going
to keep us at that homeostasis,that piece can actually isolate
us.
Right.
Kat (33:10):
Totally.
Yeah.
Val (33:11):
This is something I say a lot is like, okay, when you're
fighting, you're bickering witha partner, I always say, go, go
a step deeper.
What is it really about?
Kat (33:19):
Mm,
Val (33:20):
Okay.
It's about, you don't want to doX, Y, Z.
And, and if you can take therisk, so there's risk in
vulnerability.
Oh yeah.
There's pain.
Yeah.
Because I think that we're alsoafraid that we're unlovable or
that we don't like this thingabout ourselves.
But if you take that risk to godeeper, it's like, okay, you're
mad that your partner's doingthis, but what what's really
(33:41):
underneath that.
And that usually if you speakthat and then if you have
courage, let's say to actuallytell your partner that Then
you're bringing down theDrawbridge, right.
Then you're exposing rightyourself and you are allowing
your partner to really know youbetter and understand what it
actually is.
(34:02):
That is upsetting you.
Yeah.
Kat (34:03):
Well, thank you, Val, cuz this has been really helpful.
and like it's funny lots oftimes we check in after, you
know, we put an episode out andI just was like, fuck this was
something that was a bit of acatalyst.
And like again, unearthing apocket of pain, which.
Unbearable, but then it turnsout the scariness, it's not
(34:25):
actually unbearable.
Right?
And like, you know, you lowerthe Drawbridge and you let the
safe people in and then you getto say out loud, whatever the
hard thing is.
And you're like, it starts todissipate pretty quickly when
you've got, when you're, whenyou're fortunate to have safe
people in your life to look atit with you and hold space with
you.
Mm-hmm then.
it makes the vulnerability worthit, you know, and again, like
(34:48):
right now, sitting here at thetable, I feel less alone than I
did, like in my bed, justfeeling like this sort of dread
and, and like overwhelmed.
Val (34:57):
Mm-hmm
Kat (34:58):
and it, took you and another person.
And then me deciding like, okay,I'm gonna look at this.
I could have numbed out.
I could have just like made someother choices, you know, and,
and I'm not saying that thoseare always bad to do, you know,
sometimes you just gotta fuckingput it on the side burner and
get through whatever you useurgent to do.
Right.
And we've all done that.
That's, that's an okay thing todo, but.
(35:20):
Sometimes when we have thespaciousness for it, like to
actually meet it where it is,and, and be present with what
shows up for us.
And then again, the deeppractice of authenticity and
vulnerability is, is choosing toallow this safe relationship in
your life to witness you
Val (35:37):
mm-hmm
Kat (35:38):
to hold space for you and ultimately to make you feel less
alone.
Val (35:42):
Yeah.
It's a.
Rewarding risk when, done withsafe people and or even just
trusting yourself that you canexpose some of the parts of you
that are tender, but like those,like our private parts are more,
sensitive.
We have to treat them more withcare, right?
(36:03):
Like.
I have a neighbor who, who nakedwater skis.
And I don't really understandwhy that's a good idea.
cause there's some realvulnerable parts
Kat (36:11):
that
Val (36:11):
I think really should maybe have a little more coverage.
Kat (36:14):
Right.
Val (36:15):
So those vulnerable parts we treat with more care, right.
And so we know that there's abigger risk when we expose them.
Right.
That's where the deep work comesin our relationships and our
relationship to ourself is whenwe're like, okay, I know I'm
exposing this more vulnerable,more delicate thing.
And that brings up a whole bunchof feelings.
The price of, of vulnerability,it can feel high, especially if
(36:37):
we're not used
Kat (36:38):
to
Val (36:39):
revealing those more tender parts of ourselves and our
emotions.
Part of those more tender partsthat we don't expose to
everyone.
Right?
Those are real.
Sometimes they're very private.
Sometimes we talk about them ona podcast, but There's such
reward in trusting yourself thatyou can, tolerate the distress
(37:00):
that might come up.
Yeah.
About exposing the things aboutyourself that maybe you don't
like as much, or these deepneeds yeah.
Or feelings or the ways you'vebeen hurt, but the reward for
that.
Yeah.
Especially interpersonally orthe relationship with yourself
can be so great.
Kat (37:18):
Well, I, I think that's the thing that keeps motivating me
too, is the reward is thenyou're not alone.
Right.
And the beauty of like, I don'tknow why it's so important to
me, but like the fact that Icould really know myself feels
powerful and big.
And, and then so the quest toknow myself fully and to be
(37:40):
known right by people who I loveand care about.
Val (37:43):
It's such a beautiful feeling I think that is that's
at the core.
I think of, most of us.
There's a beautiful quote aboutthe best way to love someone is
to let them fully be themselves.
Mm-hmm
Kat (37:55):
mm-hmm right, right.
Yeah.
Val (37:56):
I think one of those questions that we're, we kind of
all have, or this desire we haveis like, am I acceptable and
loving
Kat (38:04):
right.
Val (38:05):
as I am.
Kat (38:06):
Right.
Fully.
Yeah.
Val (38:08):
and all.
Kat (38:08):
Yeah.
As I am.
And frailed Al I think that'sthe other thing like to, to own
that we have need, or that westill have pain or that we need,
we need the extra caresometimes.
Yeah.
Thank you for providing extracare for me
Val (38:21):
Ah, extra care.
Aw.
Well thank you, KA for sharing.
And dear friends.
Kat (38:32):
Good luck.
Val (38:36):
Just little encouragements, you know, if, you're wanting to
try and be just a little bitmore vulnerable than you usually
are, you know, just start small,start with something that maybe
you would think, but then youwould stop yourself from
sharing.
Kat (38:47):
Mm.
Yeah.
Val (38:48):
maybe you're on the surface and you go, well, what's one
level deeper, right?
Or even just the first step oflike who are the.
Safe people in your life.
Mm-hmm, that's important too, toknow.
Absolutely.
Who do you share that with?
Yeah, thanks for sharing cap.
Love you.
Kat (39:03):
love me.
Val (39:04):
Bye.
Love you.
Bye
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