Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now we know the Northern Territory government announced a little
bit earlier this week an additional one million dollars for
Legal Aid NT which is planning to significantly cut back
its services amid a funding crisis. Now Legal Aid had
announced plans to stop accepting new adult clients facing criminal
charges from January one, which would have significant ramifications on
(00:21):
the justice system. It is something that we've spoken about
at length over recent weeks and around the concerns. Now
yesterday I spoke to the Attorney General, Mary Clare Boothby,
who said that she had met with Legal Aid committing
the funding as a short term solution while long term
plans are worked through as part of that budget process.
But as we've discussed this morning on the week that was,
(00:44):
we know that we've got around forty one percent of
our prisoners currently in the correctional facilities are on remand
there is no doubt that there's some huge delays facing
our court system. Now joining us on the line is
the Criminal Lawyers Association of the Northern Territories NTY President
Beth Wild.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Good morning, Beth, Good morning Katie.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Thanks so much for your time this morning. Now, Beth,
in terms of the additional one million dollars that the
Northern Territory government has announced for legal aid. Do you
think that's going to make much of a difference.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
It's not going to make the difference that's required. So
we've been told are the private profession that they won't
be able to resume business as usual as a result
of that one million dollar investment, but that they're not
yet sure as to what that will mean to their
(01:40):
service cuts.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
It must make it difficult for them in terms of
that forward planning, and it must make it difficult when
you look at this whole situation more broadly.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
It does make it difficult where we're looking at trials
in early next year where people don't have lawyers at
the moment. So we had the first of the applications
made this week as to whether or not the trial
can even proceed without a lawyer for a trial is
sit on the sixth of January, and that decision hasn't
(02:15):
been made yet by the court. That bail was granted.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, well, and so we spoke about that a little
earlier in the week. I know the ABC was reporting
on Tuesday that a man who'd appeared in the Anti
Supreme Court in Darwin, charge with serious offenses, was released
on bail, partly due to uncertainty around whether his trial
could proceed. Now unable to afford his own lawyer, the
man had been receiving legal representation from a private criminal
(02:41):
law firm, an arrangement which was funded by NT Legal Aids.
So I mean not only that situation, but Beth, do
you think that we could potentially see more of that?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yes, I'm aware of one application that's being made today
and they'll be likely more next week for all of
those trials that are listed in the January February period
where people are unlikely to be represented in their matters,
and so we may see people getting bail and stays
(03:14):
been granted by the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So best I mean just breaking that down for our
listeners who've maybe never been through any kind of court
process before. One application made today for one of those
cases for next year. Now, I'm not expecting you to
go into specifics, but sort of talk us through. You
know what that means exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So what it could mean and what we saw earlier
this week is bail. So though the court can take
it into account, like you just said, as to the
cause of delay, So the Bail Act allows the court
to look at delay as a reason for granting bail.
So whilst the ultimate decision as to whether or not
(03:59):
the trial is day, meaning it doesn't happen until such
time that funding is in place, is what that means.
So people are likely they will be given bail until
such time as they can have the fair trial, that's
what it means.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, Look, there's going to be people listening this morning
who feel quite upset about that situation. You know, they
may be thinking to themselves, could this mean that we
have got you know, we've got people that could be
dangerous out on the street.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
The other side of that is the fact that we've
got people who can't actually get legal representation. I mean,
as the president of the Criminal Lawyers Association for the
Northern Territory, how do you feel about that whole situation.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Well, it's coming also at the time when we've got
just real crisis in the prison system as well, with
just overwhelming amounts of people in custody, and that's got
safety issues too, we're hearing from the unions. So it
does seem that the system is a huge amount of
unsustainable pressure. We're talking about delays, the amount of people
(05:05):
on remand and if it buckled, then it's not doing
the job that it needs to do just keep the
community safe.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
We spoke to the Attorney General on the show yesterday,
Marie Claire Boothby. She said that there are discussions underway
with the federal government as well in relation to you
to additional funding. You know, from your perspective, what needs
to happen here.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
From the outside of perspectives, it seems to me that
the various government bodies, so be at federal or local
and legal aid, really need to get together and not
out what it means so even and I hope that
(05:55):
that communication can be a little bit better to sort
out what the funding requirements are and who should be
paying for it and what it's going to take to
get the services up and running.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah. Best you know, when you look at how full
the prisons are at this point in time, my understanding
is that there's around forty one percent of the prisoners
are currently on remand. So I mean that indicates to me,
and correct me if I'm wrong, but that indicates to
me that they're obviously waiting to go through the court system.
How long are some people waiting.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
It depends if they're in the local court or and
the Supreme Court. The local court, I think we're talking
up to about eight months to get a hearing date
if someone's pleading not guilty. To get up to the
Supreme Court, can take up to a year to even
get to the Supreme Court, and then potentially another year
(06:50):
to get a trial date. So those are the sorts
of numbers. There has been an increase in the amount
of time it's taking to get to finality in these cases,
which is impacting the remand rate.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
You know what would help to speed things up.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
So I think appointing another local court judge could help
matters utilizing full days in court. I also think is
another good idea to make sure that matters are getting
reached every day. We know that that is something that's
really increased recently, the amount of matters that aren't getting
reached in a day, and that means they get adjourned
(07:29):
to the next day. So that means that we're seeing
a lot more adjournments and a greater amount of time
in reaching matters. So if we're able to get small
efficiencies like that and ensure that the legal aid services
are adequately funded, because if they're not, then we're seeing
extra delays as well, and that's putting a pressure on
(07:51):
the prisons and the watch housers. So small efficiencies like
that can make a big difference.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
And I'm assuming that those things do require some additional
funding as well to appoint an additional judge and to
get those efficiencies within the court system.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yes, but you could do it in a cost effective way.
And really, when you're talking about the amount of money
that's getting spent on over time for corrections officers that
if we can look at the other end of things
to make things more efficient, it's actually it's probably saved money.
So it's not a huge amount of money that needs
to be investing. It just needs to be prioritized as
(08:28):
an important part of the justice system.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, look, something's got to change. By the sounds of it,
I mean, you can see that things are really sort
of falling short in a number of different areas. And
I guess it's become so so obvious to everybody at
the moment, given the huge number of prisoners that we've got,
and given the huge number of those prisoners that are
actually on remand it's sort of made it really obvious
(08:51):
to everyday territorians that there is definitely some hold ups here.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yes, that's right, and I also urge people to think
about alternatives to imprisonment. Not everybody is a dangerous person
that's in prison. So you can start to look at
those people and if they could be on bail, or
if they could be somewhere other than bail, like supported
bail accommodation, particularly the women prisoners, if they could be
somewhere that wasn't prison and kept the community safe, then
(09:21):
we can really start to reduce prison numbers, which will
alleviate the pressure best.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
We always appreciate your time. Anything else we should know
about before I let you go this morning.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
No, I'm always a bit of chat.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Thank you, thank you, thanks so much. We appreciate it.
Now we know the Northern Territory government announced a little
bit earlier this week an additional one million dollars for
Legal Aid NT which is planning to significantly cut back
its services amid a funding crisis. Now Legal Aid had
announced plans to stop accepting new adult clients facing criminal
charges from January one, which would have significant ramifications on
(00:21):
the justice system. It is something that we've spoken about
at length over recent weeks and around the concerns. Now
yesterday I spoke to the Attorney General, Mary Clare Boothby,
who said that she had met with Legal Aid committing
the funding as a short term solution while long term
plans are worked through as part of that budget process.
But as we've discussed this morning on the week that was,
(00:44):
we know that we've got around forty one percent of
our prisoners currently in the correctional facilities are on remand
there is no doubt that there's some huge delays facing
our court system. Now joining us on the line is
the Criminal Lawyers Association of the Northern Territories NTY President
Beth Wild.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Good morning, Beth, Good morning Katie.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Thanks so much for your time this morning. Now, Beth,
in terms of the additional one million dollars that the
Northern Territory government has announced for legal aid. Do you
think that's going to make much of a difference.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
It's not going to make the difference that's required. So
we've been told are the private profession that they won't
be able to resume business as usual as a result
of that one million dollar investment, but that they're not
yet sure as to what that will mean to their
(01:40):
service cuts.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
It must make it difficult for them in terms of
that forward planning, and it must make it difficult when
you look at this whole situation more broadly.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
It does make it difficult where we're looking at trials
in early next year where people don't have lawyers at
the moment. So we had the first of the applications
made this week as to whether or not the trial
can even proceed without a lawyer for a trial is
sit on the sixth of January, and that decision hasn't
(02:15):
been made yet by the court. That bail was granted.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, well, and so we spoke about that a little
earlier in the week. I know the ABC was reporting
on Tuesday that a man who'd appeared in the Anti
Supreme Court in Darwin, charge with serious offenses, was released
on bail, partly due to uncertainty around whether his trial
could proceed. Now unable to afford his own lawyer, the
man had been receiving legal representation from a private criminal
(02:41):
law firm, an arrangement which was funded by NT Legal Aids.
So I mean not only that situation, but Beth, do
you think that we could potentially see more of that?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yes, I'm aware of one application that's being made today
and they'll be likely more next week for all of
those trials that are listed in the January February period
where people are unlikely to be represented in their matters,
and so we may see people getting bail and stays
(03:14):
been granted by the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So best I mean just breaking that down for our
listeners who've maybe never been through any kind of court
process before. One application made today for one of those
cases for next year. Now, I'm not expecting you to
go into specifics, but sort of talk us through. You
know what that means exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So what it could mean and what we saw earlier
this week is bail. So though the court can take
it into account, like you just said, as to the
cause of delay, So the Bail Act allows the court
to look at delay as a reason for granting bail.
So whilst the ultimate decision as to whether or not
(03:59):
the trial is day, meaning it doesn't happen until such
time that funding is in place, is what that means.
So people are likely they will be given bail until
such time as they can have the fair trial, that's
what it means.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, Look, there's going to be people listening this morning
who feel quite upset about that situation. You know, they
may be thinking to themselves, could this mean that we
have got you know, we've got people that could be
dangerous out on the street.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
The other side of that is the fact that we've
got people who can't actually get legal representation. I mean,
as the president of the Criminal Lawyers Association for the
Northern Territory, how do you feel about that whole situation.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Well, it's coming also at the time when we've got
just real crisis in the prison system as well, with
just overwhelming amounts of people in custody, and that's got
safety issues too, we're hearing from the unions. So it
does seem that the system is a huge amount of
unsustainable pressure. We're talking about delays, the amount of people
(05:05):
on remand and if it buckled, then it's not doing
the job that it needs to do just keep the
community safe.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
We spoke to the Attorney General on the show yesterday,
Marie Claire Boothby. She said that there are discussions underway
with the federal government as well in relation to you
to additional funding. You know, from your perspective, what needs
to happen here.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
From the outside of perspectives, it seems to me that
the various government bodies, so be at federal or local
and legal aid, really need to get together and not
out what it means so even and I hope that
(05:55):
that communication can be a little bit better to sort
out what the funding requirements are and who should be
paying for it and what it's going to take to
get the services up and running.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah. Best you know, when you look at how full
the prisons are at this point in time, my understanding
is that there's around forty one percent of the prisoners
are currently on remand. So I mean that indicates to me,
and correct me if I'm wrong, but that indicates to
me that they're obviously waiting to go through the court system.
How long are some people waiting.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
It depends if they're in the local court or and
the Supreme Court. The local court, I think we're talking
up to about eight months to get a hearing date
if someone's pleading not guilty. To get up to the
Supreme Court, can take up to a year to even
get to the Supreme Court, and then potentially another year
(06:50):
to get a trial date. So those are the sorts
of numbers. There has been an increase in the amount
of time it's taking to get to finality in these cases,
which is impacting the remand rate.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
You know what would help to speed things up.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
So I think appointing another local court judge could help
matters utilizing full days in court. I also think is
another good idea to make sure that matters are getting
reached every day. We know that that is something that's
really increased recently, the amount of matters that aren't getting
reached in a day, and that means they get adjourned
(07:29):
to the next day. So that means that we're seeing
a lot more adjournments and a greater amount of time
in reaching matters. So if we're able to get small
efficiencies like that and ensure that the legal aid services
are adequately funded, because if they're not, then we're seeing
extra delays as well, and that's putting a pressure on
(07:51):
the prisons and the watch housers. So small efficiencies like
that can make a big difference.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
And I'm assuming that those things do require some additional
funding as well to appoint an additional judge and to
get those efficiencies within the court system.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yes, but you could do it in a cost effective way.
And really, when you're talking about the amount of money
that's getting spent on over time for corrections officers that
if we can look at the other end of things
to make things more efficient, it's actually it's probably saved money.
So it's not a huge amount of money that needs
to be investing. It just needs to be prioritized as
(08:28):
an important part of the justice system.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, look, something's got to change. By the sounds of it,
I mean, you can see that things are really sort
of falling short in a number of different areas. And
I guess it's become so so obvious to everybody at
the moment, given the huge number of prisoners that we've got,
and given the huge number of those prisoners that are
actually on remand it's sort of made it really obvious
(08:51):
to everyday territorians that there is definitely some hold ups here.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yes, that's right, and I also urge people to think
about alternatives to imprisonment. Not everybody is a dangerous person
that's in prison. So you can start to look at
those people and if they could be on bail, or
if they could be somewhere other than bail, like supported
bail accommodation, particularly the women prisoners, if they could be
somewhere that wasn't prison and kept the community safe, then
(09:21):
we can really start to reduce prison numbers, which will
alleviate the pressure best.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
We always appreciate your time. Anything else we should know
about before I let you go this morning.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
No, I'm always a bit of chat.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Thank you, thank you, thanks so much. We appreciate it.
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