Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Situation with the Northern Territories correctional facilities being over capacity,
with that emergency action being taken, continues to dominate headlines
the Northern Territory News today, reporting that a proposed walk
off by prison staff has the support of nearly four
hundred union members. Sources have reportedly told the paper that
(00:20):
the Northern Territory correction system remains in an insane and
dangerous state of emergency. We know that a number of
different measures have been enacted by the Northern Territory Department
of Corrections and Corrections Commissioner to try to deal with
those large numbers of prisoners, will record high numbers of
prisoners that we're experiencing right now. Now. Joining us on
(00:42):
the line is Justine Davi, c Independent Member for Johnson.
Good morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Justine, Hey Katie, how are you going?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
You're really good. Thanks for joining me on the show
this morning. Now, Justine, what do you make of the
current situation with the Northern Territories correction facilities.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I think it's a disaster, which is what everyone's saying
across the board. You know, no one is winning, not
the people who are locked up, not the prison staff
who I heard you just say, you know, we've heard
that they're going to go and strike their potentially they've
got unsafe work conditions, and not the community because none
of this is making any of us safer. So yeah,
(01:22):
I think we're in big trouble here.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It seems as though the government has got a bit
of a plan. I mean they've outlined what their sort
of short to medium plan is and then their longer
term plan in terms of infrastructure, which we've spoken about
in quite a lengthy way last week. We now know
that the Northern Territories Corrections Commissioner has really had to
implement these emergency measures. Do you think that that's going
(01:48):
to be enough? Do you think that we're going to
be able to think keep things under control?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
I mean, I've talked on your show before, Katie that
I think this is not the right approach to community safety,
and I have I've heard the say O PA over
and over again in government in Parliament that they want
to address the causes of crime. That's the only way
we're going to actually address this, this new tough on
crime measure building more prisons. All we're going to do
is fill them up. And like I'm really worried about
(02:18):
what we're going to see happen here. I mean, I
think what we're already seeing advices. So in answer to
your question about do I think, you know, let's wait
and see and give it a chance and see what happens.
I don't. I don't. That's not what you said. So
I'm paraphrasing, but I don't think that's I don't think
that's going to work for us. I mean, I think,
you know, for example, you know, one of the really
(02:40):
biggest concerns that people have raised for me with me
is this removal of children from Alice Springs to Darwin,
people across the territory. Even though I'm an independent I'm
fill my community in Johnson, but people from across the
territory calling me to say, what's happening about this? Can
you please raise it? These are children who are being
taken away from their health supports, from their family supports,
(03:02):
and their community supports. And that happened before in Alice Springs,
and we saw that the result was that kids ended
up in prison for a much longer time. The new
laws that have been brought in mean that we're going
to have more and more people in prison We're going
to have more and more people on remand, and I
think I feel like I need to keep saying this
because people don't tend to realize that when you're in
(03:22):
prison on remand, that doesn't mean you've been found guilty.
It just means you're waiting for your court date. And
because of the state of our legal system, because of
the crisis that's in sometimes people wait literally for years
for their day in court and they're not even found guilty.
So that the whole system, I mean, I'll say it again,
(03:43):
the whole system is just in crisis.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Well, it certainly seems that way. I've literally just been
handed Justine, So you and I are both hearing and
reading this first time right now. That's well, we're basically
being told that there's two youths that have escape from
Alice Spring Detention overnight. So what I'm being told is
that last night the seventeen year old youth detainees escaped
(04:06):
after climbing on the roof of that facility. One of
the youth escapes has two hundred and seventy three previous
criminal occurrences with police, while the other had ninety previous
criminal occurrences. Those two youths now remain at large. So
we are being told by the Minister for Corrections, Mister
(04:27):
Jared Mayley, that the incident highlighted the need for major
changes to the territory's correction system, in which the COLP
is implementing that three step infrastructure plan. Now, as I said,
I'm literally reading this for the first time, and I'm
sure you're hearing it for the first time, as is
the rest of the Northern Territory. As I read that
out loud, I mean, that's a pretty woeful situation with
(04:49):
these two seventeen year olds obviously escaping that facility in
Alae Springs.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, and the Minister the Corrections is exactly right. We
need major change. What what an incredibly terrible situation that we
have first of all, young people, children that have that
you know, a history behind them of you know, of
that many interactions with the justice system, and you know
they're still not getting the support and help they need,
which is what the CEOP says they want to do.
(05:20):
You know, we like, as I said, we're going to think.
I fear that things are going to get worse and
worse unless we invest in what we what I believe
will work and what the Coop has said well, which
is addressing the causes of crime, why are these things
happening in the first place, and setting up a system
that doesn't just keep stuffing and overstuffing our prisons. You know,
(05:43):
we can build prisons forever and keep filling them up.
That is not going to address our crime crisis. We
need to look at look at the root causes of it.
If we really want to build a safe community.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Justine, what do you reckon that we could be doing
differently right now?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
So I think there needs to be some really well
resourced use facilities for young people, facilities for young people,
places that they can go that are safe. There are
strong community representatives at the moment that say they can
offer those things, and that needs to happen. We need
to invest in on country peacemaking so where people in
(06:19):
communities who have authority can actually work with these young
people to address what's happening and to fix it up.
We need to address in restorative justice programs which actually
what they do is bring true accountability and look after
victims first, all the things that we the Feel piece
says they want to see. There's no shortage, there's a huge.
(06:41):
I could keep going. There's no shortage of things we
could actually be doing today.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
We want to I know, I get a lot of
feedback on the show, and you know, and I've said
it to you before, I think that we've got so
many victims of crime that listen to the show that
feel really frustrated sometimes by this discussion. They're at the
point where the they're sort of going, do you know
what these kids, some of them do, need to spend
some time in jail to realize that they've impacted the
community in such a negative way. So I suppose I'm
(07:10):
keen to find out are there examples around the nation
that you can sort of point to where some of
what you've just spoken about has worked, so that we
can maybe look at that and go all right, well
that's worked in this other location. And so while I
might feel like, you know, putting these kids in jail
is the right thing to do, hang on, this is
an example of a program that's worked in another state
(07:32):
that's been really effective.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, there absolutely are, and not only throughout Australia, also
here in the Northern Territory. I doesn't say, first of all,
of course, people are sick of you know of crime,
a sick of feeling unsafe, as sick of those things happening,
and the solution they have in their mind is let's
lock these kids out so they can learn a lesson.
(07:55):
But it just doesn't work. So I don't know why
we keep doing something that we know doesn't work. Does work. So,
for example, on Groot Island, the Groot Island Peacemakers, the
imprisonment rate of and the crime rate they're dropped by
more than ninety percent through investing in community based peacemaking options.
So we don't need to look. But there are many
programs and I'd be happy to kind of come and
(08:17):
give examples of that and talk more about it. There's
programs that I've been involved in here in the NT
that work to As I said, what people want is
young people to be or whoever's committed a crime to
be accountable. I agree, I agree there's a huge gap
in accountability, but you don't People do not feel accountable
(08:38):
when you lock them up. We know that's not true.
So they feel accountable when they sit down with someone
who they've hurt and have to listen to their story
and acknowledge it and then work out how to fix
it up. So that's what a restorative justice program can
do and it works.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Justin will move along because there is a lot happening
around the place this morning. And another topic which I'm
not sure whether you've seen much about, but I know
we have spoken about in the past. It is a
situation with Legal Aid. Now we know that you know
that there are obviously very much underfunded at this point
in time, the organization confirming a bit earlier in the
(09:15):
year that they're dramatically cutting back some of those critical
services due to insufficient funding. Now the ABC reporting this
morning that a man who appeared in the Northern Territory
Supreme Court in Darwin charge for serious offenses was released
on bail, partly due to uncertainty around whether his trial
could proceed. So The allegations reportedly involved domestic violence related
(09:36):
offenses and one counter aggravated robbery, which carries a maximum
sentence of life in prison. Unable to afford his own lawyer,
the man has been receiving legal Aid representation from a
private criminal law firm under an arrangement funded by Legal
Aid here in the Northern Territory, and he's due to
face criminal trials starting on January sixth. But what's being
(09:59):
reported is that the critical service cuts at Legal Aid
mean that he's no longer going to have a lawyer
to defend him at that upcoming trial. And in the
matter hood yesterday, the prosecution argued that the Dawa man's
bail applications should be refused out of concern for the
complainant's safety. But according to this report by Samantha Dick,
the accused had previously been denied bail due to the
(10:21):
close proximity of his proposed address. However, Justice Blocklin said
that ongoing uncertainty at Legal Aid, combined with other factors
such as the defendant securing a new address and agreeing
to comply with strict bail conditions, influenced her decision to
ultimately grant him bail. Justine, Like, it's a dire situation,
(10:43):
There is no doubt about that. What do you think
needs to happen here?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
We cannot have a legal system which where people are unrepresented,
where we're putting our community, both the people who are
before the court and the rest of the community at risk.
Like it's just as you do said, I mean, this
is a compot. I'm not going to comment on the
particularities of that case, but there are so many things
within that that point to where the system is falling apart.
(11:10):
And unless we have a really robust legal system that's
properly resourced that can represent people, we're going to see
more and more situations where justice is not served. And
so I mean, there's the cuts to legal aid coming
or the lack of funding to legal aid at the
same time as a huge increased pressure on our legal
(11:33):
system because of these new laws that the SEAL people
brought in. Once again, Like, I'm really worried about what
we're going to see here in our community. Like everyone,
I want to have a safe community, like everyone, I
care about community safety, and I just I feel like
that's not what we're going to be seeing here. We're
going to it's going to get worse and worse. Yeah,
(11:56):
it is.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
We need to sort this outside. I know it's easiest
said than done, but we certainly need to get this
situation sorted out with legal later. I've put in a
request to have the Attorney General on the show for
tomorrow morning, so I'm hoping that I'm able to do that. Justine,
I am going to have to leave it there. Unfortunately
we have got such a busy show lined up. Always
appreciate your time and thank you so much for joining
me this morning.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
No worries, Thanks Katie, thank you.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Talks you soon.
Situation with the Northern Territories correctional facilities being over capacity,
with that emergency action being taken, continues to dominate headlines
the Northern Territory News today, reporting that a proposed walk
off by prison staff has the support of nearly four
hundred union members. Sources have reportedly told the paper that
(00:20):
the Northern Territory correction system remains in an insane and
dangerous state of emergency. We know that a number of
different measures have been enacted by the Northern Territory Department
of Corrections and Corrections Commissioner to try to deal with
those large numbers of prisoners, will record high numbers of
prisoners that we're experiencing right now. Now. Joining us on
(00:42):
the line is Justine Davi, c Independent Member for Johnson.
Good morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Justine, Hey Katie, how are you going?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
You're really good. Thanks for joining me on the show
this morning. Now, Justine, what do you make of the
current situation with the Northern Territories correction facilities.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I think it's a disaster, which is what everyone's saying
across the board. You know, no one is winning, not
the people who are locked up, not the prison staff
who I heard you just say, you know, we've heard
that they're going to go and strike their potentially they've
got unsafe work conditions, and not the community because none
of this is making any of us safer. So yeah,
(01:22):
I think we're in big trouble here.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It seems as though the government has got a bit
of a plan. I mean they've outlined what their sort
of short to medium plan is and then their longer
term plan in terms of infrastructure, which we've spoken about
in quite a lengthy way last week. We now know
that the Northern Territories Corrections Commissioner has really had to
implement these emergency measures. Do you think that that's going
(01:48):
to be enough? Do you think that we're going to
be able to think keep things under control?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
I mean, I've talked on your show before, Katie that
I think this is not the right approach to community safety,
and I have I've heard the say O PA over
and over again in government in Parliament that they want
to address the causes of crime. That's the only way
we're going to actually address this, this new tough on
crime measure building more prisons. All we're going to do
is fill them up. And like I'm really worried about
(02:18):
what we're going to see happen here. I mean, I
think what we're already seeing advices. So in answer to
your question about do I think, you know, let's wait
and see and give it a chance and see what happens.
I don't. I don't. That's not what you said. So
I'm paraphrasing, but I don't think that's I don't think
that's going to work for us. I mean, I think,
you know, for example, you know, one of the really
(02:40):
biggest concerns that people have raised for me with me
is this removal of children from Alice Springs to Darwin,
people across the territory. Even though I'm an independent I'm
fill my community in Johnson, but people from across the
territory calling me to say, what's happening about this? Can
you please raise it? These are children who are being
taken away from their health supports, from their family supports,
(03:02):
and their community supports. And that happened before in Alice Springs,
and we saw that the result was that kids ended
up in prison for a much longer time. The new
laws that have been brought in mean that we're going
to have more and more people in prison We're going
to have more and more people on remand, and I
think I feel like I need to keep saying this
because people don't tend to realize that when you're in
(03:22):
prison on remand, that doesn't mean you've been found guilty.
It just means you're waiting for your court date. And
because of the state of our legal system, because of
the crisis that's in sometimes people wait literally for years
for their day in court and they're not even found guilty.
So that the whole system, I mean, I'll say it again,
(03:43):
the whole system is just in crisis.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Well, it certainly seems that way. I've literally just been
handed Justine, So you and I are both hearing and
reading this first time right now. That's well, we're basically
being told that there's two youths that have escape from
Alice Spring Detention overnight. So what I'm being told is
that last night the seventeen year old youth detainees escaped
(04:06):
after climbing on the roof of that facility. One of
the youth escapes has two hundred and seventy three previous
criminal occurrences with police, while the other had ninety previous
criminal occurrences. Those two youths now remain at large. So
we are being told by the Minister for Corrections, Mister
(04:27):
Jared Mayley, that the incident highlighted the need for major
changes to the territory's correction system, in which the COLP
is implementing that three step infrastructure plan. Now, as I said,
I'm literally reading this for the first time, and I'm
sure you're hearing it for the first time, as is
the rest of the Northern Territory. As I read that
out loud, I mean, that's a pretty woeful situation with
(04:49):
these two seventeen year olds obviously escaping that facility in
Alae Springs.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, and the Minister the Corrections is exactly right. We
need major change. What what an incredibly terrible situation that we
have first of all, young people, children that have that
you know, a history behind them of you know, of
that many interactions with the justice system, and you know
they're still not getting the support and help they need,
which is what the CEOP says they want to do.
(05:20):
You know, we like, as I said, we're going to think.
I fear that things are going to get worse and
worse unless we invest in what we what I believe
will work and what the Coop has said well, which
is addressing the causes of crime, why are these things
happening in the first place, and setting up a system
that doesn't just keep stuffing and overstuffing our prisons. You know,
(05:43):
we can build prisons forever and keep filling them up.
That is not going to address our crime crisis. We
need to look at look at the root causes of it.
If we really want to build a safe community.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Justine, what do you reckon that we could be doing
differently right now?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
So I think there needs to be some really well
resourced use facilities for young people, facilities for young people,
places that they can go that are safe. There are
strong community representatives at the moment that say they can
offer those things, and that needs to happen. We need
to invest in on country peacemaking so where people in
(06:19):
communities who have authority can actually work with these young
people to address what's happening and to fix it up.
We need to address in restorative justice programs which actually
what they do is bring true accountability and look after
victims first, all the things that we the Feel piece
says they want to see. There's no shortage, there's a huge.
(06:41):
I could keep going. There's no shortage of things we
could actually be doing today.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
We want to I know, I get a lot of
feedback on the show, and you know, and I've said
it to you before, I think that we've got so
many victims of crime that listen to the show that
feel really frustrated sometimes by this discussion. They're at the
point where the they're sort of going, do you know
what these kids, some of them do, need to spend
some time in jail to realize that they've impacted the
community in such a negative way. So I suppose I'm
(07:10):
keen to find out are there examples around the nation
that you can sort of point to where some of
what you've just spoken about has worked, so that we
can maybe look at that and go all right, well
that's worked in this other location. And so while I
might feel like, you know, putting these kids in jail
is the right thing to do, hang on, this is
an example of a program that's worked in another state
(07:32):
that's been really effective.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, there absolutely are, and not only throughout Australia, also
here in the Northern Territory. I doesn't say, first of all,
of course, people are sick of you know of crime,
a sick of feeling unsafe, as sick of those things happening,
and the solution they have in their mind is let's
lock these kids out so they can learn a lesson.
(07:55):
But it just doesn't work. So I don't know why
we keep doing something that we know doesn't work. Does work. So,
for example, on Groot Island, the Groot Island Peacemakers, the
imprisonment rate of and the crime rate they're dropped by
more than ninety percent through investing in community based peacemaking options.
So we don't need to look. But there are many
programs and I'd be happy to kind of come and
(08:17):
give examples of that and talk more about it. There's
programs that I've been involved in here in the NT
that work to As I said, what people want is
young people to be or whoever's committed a crime to
be accountable. I agree, I agree there's a huge gap
in accountability, but you don't People do not feel accountable
(08:38):
when you lock them up. We know that's not true.
So they feel accountable when they sit down with someone
who they've hurt and have to listen to their story
and acknowledge it and then work out how to fix
it up. So that's what a restorative justice program can
do and it works.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Justin will move along because there is a lot happening
around the place this morning. And another topic which I'm
not sure whether you've seen much about, but I know
we have spoken about in the past. It is a
situation with Legal Aid. Now we know that you know
that there are obviously very much underfunded at this point
in time, the organization confirming a bit earlier in the
(09:15):
year that they're dramatically cutting back some of those critical
services due to insufficient funding. Now the ABC reporting this
morning that a man who appeared in the Northern Territory
Supreme Court in Darwin charge for serious offenses was released
on bail, partly due to uncertainty around whether his trial
could proceed. So The allegations reportedly involved domestic violence related
(09:36):
offenses and one counter aggravated robbery, which carries a maximum
sentence of life in prison. Unable to afford his own lawyer,
the man has been receiving legal Aid representation from a
private criminal law firm under an arrangement funded by Legal
Aid here in the Northern Territory, and he's due to
face criminal trials starting on January sixth. But what's being
(09:59):
reported is that the critical service cuts at Legal Aid
mean that he's no longer going to have a lawyer
to defend him at that upcoming trial. And in the
matter hood yesterday, the prosecution argued that the Dawa man's
bail applications should be refused out of concern for the
complainant's safety. But according to this report by Samantha Dick,
the accused had previously been denied bail due to the
(10:21):
close proximity of his proposed address. However, Justice Blocklin said
that ongoing uncertainty at Legal Aid, combined with other factors
such as the defendant securing a new address and agreeing
to comply with strict bail conditions, influenced her decision to
ultimately grant him bail. Justine, Like, it's a dire situation,
(10:43):
There is no doubt about that. What do you think
needs to happen here?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
We cannot have a legal system which where people are unrepresented,
where we're putting our community, both the people who are
before the court and the rest of the community at risk.
Like it's just as you do said, I mean, this
is a compot. I'm not going to comment on the
particularities of that case, but there are so many things
within that that point to where the system is falling apart.
(11:10):
And unless we have a really robust legal system that's
properly resourced that can represent people, we're going to see
more and more situations where justice is not served. And
so I mean, there's the cuts to legal aid coming
or the lack of funding to legal aid at the
same time as a huge increased pressure on our legal
(11:33):
system because of these new laws that the SEAL people
brought in. Once again, Like, I'm really worried about what
we're going to see here in our community. Like everyone,
I want to have a safe community, like everyone, I
care about community safety, and I just I feel like
that's not what we're going to be seeing here. We're
going to it's going to get worse and worse. Yeah,
(11:56):
it is.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
We need to sort this outside. I know it's easiest
said than done, but we certainly need to get this
situation sorted out with legal later. I've put in a
request to have the Attorney General on the show for
tomorrow morning, so I'm hoping that I'm able to do that. Justine,
I am going to have to leave it there. Unfortunately
we have got such a busy show lined up. Always
appreciate your time and thank you so much for joining
me this morning.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
No worries, Thanks Katie, thank you.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Talks you soon.
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