Member for Araluen Robyn Lambley says the Attorney General has given more detail in estimates on the circumstances surrounding the former Police Commissioner’s retirement

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Let's get into it because joining me on the line
right now is the Member for our Lun, the Independent
Member for Our Lun, Robin Lamley.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Good morning to you, Robin, Good morning Katie, Robin.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
It has been an interesting time, to say the least,
as budget estimates have sat and well, last night the
ABC revealed the legal fees paid by the Northern Territory
government around the payout to Jamie Chalker. So just the
legal fees were almost seventeen grand sixteen eight hundred and

(00:33):
seventy three dollars. In fact, that's not the payout amount,
the Chief Minister saying that's confidential, that's just the legal fees.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Robin.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
What do you make of the fact that nobody could
sort of get that answer throughout the estimates process, but
the media has been able to get a hold of it.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well, I hadn't heard that, Katie, So that's fascinating. What
we saw yesterday was intriguing. We had the Attorney General
Chancey Peig before us for most of the day and
I don't think he got the memo I deny it
and deny lie, lie lie, because he was more forthcoming
than lawl Warden and files put together on the whole

(01:11):
background and details of the Chalker case. What he revealed
was something that hadn't been revealed before in endemates, and
that is that the Attorney General's Department used an outside
solicitor to provide legal assistance to Kate Warden, Minister for

(01:32):
Police and the Chief Minister regarding the Chalker case. So
that certainly wasn't provided by any of the others. And
then that led to what legal agency or business did
they use And I can't remember the name, and now
we're being told to costs. So I don't think my

(01:54):
hunches at the Attorney General probably wasn't meant to reveal
that information, but he did. And that's very politically, very
interesting in itself that the Chancey Pake would decide to
do that, almost inconsistent with his more senior colleagues or
other colleagues.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Robin, what do you think that means?

Speaker 1 (02:15):
You know, the fact that they used an outside legal
service to get that support.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
So we were told yesterday and this was a revelation
to me too. I've never had much to do with
the Department of Justice, but the Solicitor for the Northern
Territory commonly acts as what they called a conduit by
providing ministers and other senior bureaucrats with legal advice from

(02:46):
outside the department. So they basically set it up for
ministers and people that might need legal representation or advice
if they can't provide it themselves.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, right, that is I mean, that's I'm fascinating.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
It's just sort of just trying to wrap my head
around and I suppose and what it all means. And
I guess, you know, the whole situation around the payout
to the former police commissioner has been unbelievable really to
watch in budget estimates and that lack of information forthcoming.
The Chief Minister a little bit more open when we
spoke to her on the show yesterday and saying that

(03:22):
you know, this is not going to come out of
the police operating budget. It comes out of their HR
budget and should there be a shortfall that they would
be prepared to do a Treasurer's advance to top that up.
But there is no denying Robin that you know, this
is a situation where we are paying for a bungle
which has been made by the Chief Minister and the

(03:43):
Minister for Police.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
No doubt, Katie and some my perspective. Sitting in estimates
throughout all of last week and this week, each minister
gave a slightly different story. We started off with Manison,
who wouldn't say anything, basically shut down, wasn't forthcoming at all,

(04:05):
pretty much the same with Lawla. Lawla then implied that
it was the payout to talk or was coming out
of the police budget. Then the Police Minister said, well,
she didn't know how much it was, wasn't really clear
or didn't provide any clarification on what that looked like

(04:27):
exactly where or how it was like see no evil here,
no evil speak no evil. I mean, you know, it
was just ridiculous and very very offensive, Katie, when you're
sitting before ministers in an a parliamentary committee context and

(04:48):
it's the only real opportunity you have to fire endless
questions at them and they're essentially lying to you or
not telling you the truth. No matter how whatever way
you want to couch it. It is offensive to us
and it's offensive to territorians. And I think that this
incident has really scarred this government because you know, we

(05:14):
know that this whole business with Chalker was triggered by
a letter that the Chief Minister sent to Chalker which
was apparently allegedly factually incorrect. And you know, the consequence
has been obviously a huge payout or a significant payout,
and we have no idea of the size of it.

(05:36):
But it's been a comedy of errors and at the
expense of all Territorians and it's just not on and
the files to shut down, not answer questions, Warden, Lawla
and Manison to be in on it all and take
to just dribble us a bit is really quite offensive.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, it's been really disappointing, to say the least watching
it all unfold. I think in estimates, Rob and I
do want to ask there were some pretty interesting revelations
around corrections yesterday and the watch house in Darwin being
used to hold prisoners. What did you learn in terms
of the number of prisoners that are being held in
the Darwen watch House currently.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
Well, what we were told is that right across the
five prisons in the Northern Territory they're basically all at
capacities and the capacity, of course over the years has
been expanded and expanded, particularly in the Darwin Prison and
the Alice Springs Prison. But things are so bad in
Darwin that they've been using the Darwin Police Watchhouse for

(06:38):
about the last six months to house forty prisoners. Now
this is a watchhouse, it's not set up to be
a prison, and what we heard yesterday is that because
it's not set up suitably with sufficient amenities showers, toilets,
the staff to prisoner ratio is hideously high. So therefore

(06:59):
the expense of running this mini little prison in the
Darwin Watchhouse, which is meant to expire in July but
it probably won't, has been ridiculously high. So another very
poor indictment on the government. I mean they've sat back
in allowed crime to escalate, and of course we all

(07:20):
know that more crime equals more prisoners, but the government
has failed to plan more prisons.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
And robin so so forty prisoners currently being held in
the Darwin Watchhouse. So right in the city we've got
forty prisoners in there. Do we know how many correction
staff are there to look after them?

Speaker 3 (07:42):
So it works out to be over a thirty eight
hour week. I did the sums. It's about forty staff
that need to be there over a thirty eight hour
period for forty forty prisoners, which is just ridiculous. It's
so inofficial and expensive to run that robin.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
How are they feeding them?

Speaker 1 (08:04):
And how are they if there's not all the facilities
there that are required, what are they doing well?

Speaker 3 (08:09):
That came up too, I mean they don't have the
facilities there like they do in the prisons to feed them.
So the food's being brought in and at one point
the Corrections commissioners said that they get supplementary food packs
and I thought, the minister, what's that and he said that,

(08:31):
you know, they get these prisoners that are generally low
security I used to eating a bit more than the
other prisoners, so they get a little bit of extra
food in some sort of supplementary food pack. But look,
the whole prison system in the Northern Territory you could
only described as being in crisis. There are thirty one

(08:53):
vacant positions custodial officer positions in Alice Springs, which is
a significant shortage and it really you really have to
question the risk for prisoners and staff working under those conditions.
The staff shortage is really really acute and serious, and

(09:17):
although there was a lot of talk about things that
they're doing to try and address this, you can only
be left wondering just what the hell is going on?
It's just a mess. It is truly a big, big mess,
once again making the government look very very bad.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Robin, What needs to happen here? Do you think?

Speaker 1 (09:38):
You know, you've said that our corrections system is in
crisis right now.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
What do you reckon needs to happen?

Speaker 3 (09:46):
Well, they're trying desperately to sell this justice reinvestment model
where they're trying to avert people who commit crimes ending
up in jail. I suppose that's the only option they have.
I mean, you know, one would think that they try
and just stop the crime in the first place. But
I guess that's too hard for them to get their

(10:07):
head around. I mean, five years ago, we didn't have
this enormous pressure on the jails that we have now.
So you know, the elephant in the room is why
are these people just going berserk and committing all these
crimes in the first place, whereas they weren't to this
extent five to ten years ago. What the heck's going
on that we had to potentially build more prisons or

(10:28):
put in these programs that avert people or send them
somewhere else, rather than to jail. I mean, ironically, the
government's one of their platform policies has always been to
reduce the incarceration rate of Aboriginal people. Yet this government
has incarcerated more Aboriginal people than any other Northern Territory

(10:50):
government in the history of the Northern Territory. So they
are failing, failing, failing, Katie, and any mission or acknowledgment
of their failure just doesn't happen. And I guess you
know that's politics. But when you're sitting in front of
these ministers one after the other for a week and
a half now and you're just getting the positive stories,

(11:12):
it's really it's like you're in a parallel universe, like
what happened outside.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Well, and they've got to listen, you know, they have
to listen to what normal people are saying.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, this is the thing.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
And Robin, look, coming up next, we're actually going to
be speaking to Samara Lavity Decland's mum. She's taken aim
at the government for not acting with urgency following her
son's death. Robin, do you think that the government are
doing enough in this space?

Speaker 3 (11:41):
Look, I think they probably are trying to work very
quickly to fix the problems that they created. Territorians will
remember that over the last seven years this government relaxed
the BAO requirements for people that have committed certain crimes.
Now they're having to fix the problem that they created.

(12:05):
So we heard from the Attorney General yesterday that he's
working hard and there's all these timelines around different reviews
and reports around the use of weapons and the bar legislation.
The fact that a woman who's lost her son is

(12:25):
calling them out is really grave and deeply embarrassing for them.
Not enough was done in the first place to stop
these crimes from happening. The fact that they might be
working hard at the moment to fix the problem that
they created is neither here nor there. A life has been.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Lost, Robin Lamley, we are going to have to leave
it there. It is always good to catch up with you.
Hopefully talk to you again very soon.

Speaker 3 (12:52):
I'd like that, Katie.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
Thanks, thank you, Thanks Robin.