Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now, I'm sure you would have heard and seen in
(00:02):
the news in recent weeks that traditional owners are planning
to open Gunlan Falls next year. After Parks Australia was
hit with a massive fine over the construction of a
walkway in twenty nineteen through a sacred site. Now Parks
Australia pleaded guilty to damaging a rock art site and
was ordered to pay two hundred thousand dollars for that breach,
(00:23):
marking the first time that a Commonwealth agency has been
prosecuted under the Northern Territory Sacred Sites Laws. But it
doesn't seem to be the end of the issues for
Parks Australia, with Kagadoo tourism operators contacting me here at
the station with concerns about late openings as well as
early closures at particular areas with very little notice, is
(00:45):
what we're being told now. Joining us on the line
is empty driver guide operator and owner Deb frosh Oh.
Let me just make sure I've got you there, Deb.
Good morning to you, Deb.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Hi Katie, how are you? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Really good? Lovely to have you on.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
The show now, Dad, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
What are your concerns at the moments it's O Katie.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I'm a relatively new tour operator, but I've been working
in the industry here for about twelve years, so it's
not like it's a new thing, and I'm sort of
getting on the bandwagon as a new operator. So much
the industry as a whole. We all talk about these
things like on private Facebook pages and networking meetings, and
I think collectively the speak that I've been hearing over
(01:28):
the last week especially, is particularly after the Gunlom decision,
if we can call it that, one would think that
parks would be really keen to communicate well with everybody,
but particularly tour operators who pay permits to go to
certain places throughout the year to make sure that we
get the best out of the park for our guests.
(01:51):
And look, you know, we know that things are going
to close over the wet season, whether it's because of heat, water, crocodiles,
We're totally aware of that. But we pay a large
amount of money to run out tours. All of the
tour operators pay large amounts of money to have permits
to work in Kakadoo for twelve months at a time.
(02:11):
This year, however, for example, mcgook opened in August instead
of May and last as they were advised at three
thirty Thursday afternoon that the closer of Mcgook was immediate.
So we got three months out of our twelve months
this year.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So why was it closing immediately?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So I've made some inquiries to Kakadou and I have
actually just received in the last ten minutes some photos
of the road. So granted there is damage into Mcgook,
and there was. There's been a big discussion recently as
well about two will drivers going down into Mcgook and
getting stuck, and I personally pulled out four people unto
will drive vehicles out of the sands down the end.
(02:54):
So we understand that it's it's not ideal for everybody
with every vehicle. And the photos that I've just seen
literally in the last ten minutes do show that there
was quite a large amount of water over the road
actually at the top end of the road. But this
is a flood. It's a short term flood situation. It's
the same everywhere else. It's the same in Lichfield. I've
(03:17):
just spent the weekends down on the Reynolds track driving
through half a meter waters in my ball drive as
a tour operator in complete safety. We survived in Lichfield.
They had two big storms there last week. There was
some water over the road which looks like it was
probably about thirty or forty centimeters deep on the burst
(03:39):
and the decision was made to immediately close that road.
So why can we not go up and down these
roads in our ball drives as tour operators? But we
can in Lichfield for example, and we don't pay the
same but we still pay permits in Lichfield, but they're
nothing the same.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
They're nowhere new, so deep I mean, obviously Kackadoo was
managed by the by Parks Australia as I understand it.
Lichfield managed by the Northern Territory Government. And do you
feel as though it's you know, like do you feel
as though you do get more notice and it's it's, oh,
I don't know what the right word is. Maybe a
little bit easier to work things out working with you know,
(04:21):
the NT government for Lichfield.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, well, I guess because it's localized, we can always
ring Lichfield Parks management say hey, what's going on? And
we can do that with Kakadu with like I've got
really good relationships with Kackadoo, there's a there's a tourism advisor.
He talks to me. We have good relationship and he
actually escalated this to me last week and the result
is is now I have photos. So I guess the
(04:44):
answer is because it's Parks Australia, it is a little
harder to communicate with them. But I think one of
the things that's been brought up recently is the communication
that goes out for a start, no notice at all.
And this was brought up in May when you know,
we we were talking about why can't we get into
my book because the road was closed and we were
just getting stone faced responses. Was the response was, well
(05:08):
it's closed because of damage, so show us the damage
so we can understand why we're having trouble running our
tours or why we can't go there. So I've had
to ask the question, wait a few days, get a
photograph which has been sent to me, and I've suggested
send these photos across the board to people and we'll
understand and probably back off or what have you?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Is Magook the only place where this has happened or
have you like, has it been in some other locations?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Okay, so it's not the only place. Obviously, we haven't
had access to Gundlam and that's another story. And we're
hoping it will be opening. We listen to the pos
and they're saying it'll be open next year, but you know,
we'll see. Who knows what the road's like. Will we
be able to get in there? Jim Jim. They gave
us about a week's notice closed on the thirty first October,
(06:01):
and with that road is always an issue. And of
course the heat climbing into gym Gym, it's been hot
out there. We get it. But another example is, for example,
Uber Rock in the wet season, Kaki do offer tour
operators the opportunity to have a key to access the
rock Art area through the wet season. At times when
(06:24):
it's not open to the general public. However, they will
close the Owunpelly roads so we can't actually get there.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
So from that decision I mean, is that a decision
being made by Parks Australia or by traditional owners.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Well, the communication comes from Parks Australia. Whether it's actually
traditional owners or not, who's to say. But I think
the frustration overall is Katie is when we ask questions
as to why we don't really get answers, and if
we understood well, then we'd be able to probably not
be quite as irritated things we're trying to sell products
(07:02):
a year out or six months about we don't know
what's going to be open when, and we'd like reasons.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Well, And this is I think, you know, the biggest
point that I would imagine is becoming quite frustrating for
any tour operator is that if you don't have that
certainty either way, like at least if you know something's
closed and you know the reasons why you've got that certainty,
then you won't book those tours potentially. But if you're
being told something's going to be open for a certain
(07:28):
period of time, then you operate your business accordingly. But
by the sounds of it, that communication is not necessarily there,
and I've no doubt it's having a big impact for
you then, particularly with international tourists who would have to
book very early.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yes, that's right. So for example, this week, I'm taking
a couple out from Sweden who booked in November last
year for next week. For this week, their dream was
to swim in the outback and the natural landscape of
kakado Whilst I don't generally market to say come swimming
in Kackadoo because I'm very cautious do that. I felt
(08:03):
that it was safe and I've had to ask permission
now to go to another site. And if that's not possible,
well then I have to drive to Edith Falls. We're
not going to Lichfield on this tour, so that means
I need to reroute our itinery. It's a three day itinery.
I wish for inker me costs because I have to
drive another four hundred five hundred kilometers. So I still
(08:24):
need to give them this thing that they really really want,
even if it's not in Kakadu, it's somewhere else yep.
And the Kakadu website actually says things like mygook most
likely to be open May to October. Well, this year
was August to October, and it was the same to
a lesser extent with Jim Jim.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Well, and the thing is dip like I've not long
ago come back from New Zealand where my young fella
really wanted to mountain bike in Queenstown. Now, you absolutely
you look at that website, you look at it daily
to make sure that the actual you know that that
track is going to be open to go across and
do what you want to do your book accordingly in
(09:05):
terms of getting there to be able to do it,
and you do understand that whether in different things are
going to have an impact as it did when we
were in New Zealand and lucky we're there for a
little bit longer so it could still do it. But
these are the types of considerations that people take into
account when they're booking something. So then you know, if
changes come about and there's not really a reason given,
(09:27):
it would become utterly frustrating, I would think for you
as an operator trying to market your business to international tourists.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Absolutely well to anybody. But also you know, we're aware
that things close that traditional owners will close for cultural reasons,
story business, et cetera. We totally get that, and that
can happen very at very short notice. Yeah, so all
the too operators I know that we've been talking about.
Of course, we have a clause in our terms and
conditions that says subject to availability, cultural reasons, whether et cetera.
(09:58):
We get it, but we just want better communication from Kakadu.
I don't want to waste my time having to ask
permission to go to places that either I've already paid
for technically through my permit, or alternatively, there are places
that are open to the general public that tour operators
are not allowed to go to. Yeah, so we now
(10:18):
have to ask permission to say can we go there instead?
And we're business owners, we're not children. We are responsible.
We understand the culture, we understand the landscape. That's while
we're to a guide and we're passionate about this country.
And I guess overall it is what it is. But
the communication is probably the bigger issue. And I've got
(10:39):
great relationships out there, and this conversation I do not want,
you know, is not designed to upset those relationships. But
I think we're all banging our heads against the wall
asking for better communications and trust that we do understand is.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
That ultimately what you are after is that better communication.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
That's right, We've got all this technology over the years.
I've done tours where I've done day tours and driven
all the way out to Kakado on the day to
find the gates to be closed. But the report that
came out that morning says that it's open, or maybe
the afternoon before and because there's been a cultural activity
(11:21):
or situation they've had to close it. That's okay, And
yes we do have limited mobile service, etc. But why
don't we have the telecommunications or the technology to text
message to our operators as early as they know six o'clock,
seven o'clock in the morning, I don't know, but as
soon as they know. We should not be notified of
these closures immediately. If it's a short term for like
(11:44):
a sudden yea. And if it's not sudden, well then
we need to see photos, or even if it is sudden,
if it's not cultural, we need to see photos. Why
can't we go down these roads? Why they closed?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, look, I've no doubt that you are not alone
in concerns. I'm sure that we'll probably hear from other
operators or even other tourists in fact, that are probably
going to get in contact with us. So I really
appreciate you having a chat with me this morning. And yeah, look,
I'm keen to continue the discussion, so I'll see whether
we can get in contact with Parks Australia. I know
(12:18):
it's something that does get raised to raised with us.
Pretty well every year, and it just beggars believe to
me that there's not a better system in place so
that it works for everybody, you know, for you guys
as operators, for our traditional owners, and indeed you know,
for tourists wanting to head on out there.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Absolutely. And the other thing is is that making sure
that tourists who are independent, yeah, are given the right
information that this road is not okay for a higher
car or a too will drive, and maybe we set
up a situation where that then naturally drives more tourists
to us as tour operators because they feel they can't
go down there, yep. And then of course the con
(12:58):
based in Darwin. But there are a couple of operators
in Kackadoo who run their business only on Kackadoo and
they rely on this information one hundred percent. I know
you've spoken to a couple over the years. I remember
hearing it, yep. And I haven't spoken to one or
two of them yet, but they'd be mortified to know
that their last maybe three or four weeks of running
(13:19):
was just shut down last week with zero notice.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yep. Well, deb, thank you so much for your time
this morning. I really appreciate it. If there is anyone
else that is keen to have a chat to us
that you know of, send them our way, because I
think it's a discussion that needs to be had, particularly
you know, when we are looking at a time right
now territory is number one on Netflix across the world, Like,
(13:42):
we want to capitalize on this in the right ways.
We want you know, you want tour operators, you want
us here in Darwin, you want traditional loaners, you want
everybody to benefit from that.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah. And on top of that, finally, tourism mentee spend
millions and minds of dollars promoting this country and we
can't get there.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah yep, well, deb yeah, that is incredibly frustrating. Thank
you so very much for having a chat with me
this morning. I really appreciate it. Thank you,
Now, I'm sure you would have heard and seen in
(00:02):
the news in recent weeks that traditional owners are planning
to open Gunlan Falls next year. After Parks Australia was
hit with a massive fine over the construction of a
walkway in twenty nineteen through a sacred site. Now Parks
Australia pleaded guilty to damaging a rock art site and
was ordered to pay two hundred thousand dollars for that breach,
(00:23):
marking the first time that a Commonwealth agency has been
prosecuted under the Northern Territory Sacred Sites Laws. But it
doesn't seem to be the end of the issues for
Parks Australia, with Kagadoo tourism operators contacting me here at
the station with concerns about late openings as well as
early closures at particular areas with very little notice, is
(00:45):
what we're being told now. Joining us on the line
is empty driver guide operator and owner Deb frosh Oh.
Let me just make sure I've got you there, Deb.
Good morning to you, Deb.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Hi Katie, how are you? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Really good? Lovely to have you on.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
The show now, Dad, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
What are your concerns at the moments it's O Katie.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I'm a relatively new tour operator, but I've been working
in the industry here for about twelve years, so it's
not like it's a new thing, and I'm sort of
getting on the bandwagon as a new operator. So much
the industry as a whole. We all talk about these
things like on private Facebook pages and networking meetings, and
I think collectively the speak that I've been hearing over
(01:28):
the last week especially, is particularly after the Gunlom decision,
if we can call it that, one would think that
parks would be really keen to communicate well with everybody,
but particularly tour operators who pay permits to go to
certain places throughout the year to make sure that we
get the best out of the park for our guests.
(01:51):
And look, you know, we know that things are going
to close over the wet season, whether it's because of heat, water, crocodiles,
We're totally aware of that. But we pay a large
amount of money to run out tours. All of the
tour operators pay large amounts of money to have permits
to work in Kakadoo for twelve months at a time.
(02:11):
This year, however, for example, mcgook opened in August instead
of May and last as they were advised at three
thirty Thursday afternoon that the closer of Mcgook was immediate.
So we got three months out of our twelve months
this year.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So why was it closing immediately?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
So I've made some inquiries to Kakadou and I have
actually just received in the last ten minutes some photos
of the road. So granted there is damage into Mcgook,
and there was. There's been a big discussion recently as
well about two will drivers going down into Mcgook and
getting stuck, and I personally pulled out four people unto
will drive vehicles out of the sands down the end.
(02:54):
So we understand that it's it's not ideal for everybody
with every vehicle. And the photos that I've just seen
literally in the last ten minutes do show that there
was quite a large amount of water over the road
actually at the top end of the road. But this
is a flood. It's a short term flood situation. It's
the same everywhere else. It's the same in Lichfield. I've
(03:17):
just spent the weekends down on the Reynolds track driving
through half a meter waters in my ball drive as
a tour operator in complete safety. We survived in Lichfield.
They had two big storms there last week. There was
some water over the road which looks like it was
probably about thirty or forty centimeters deep on the burst
(03:39):
and the decision was made to immediately close that road.
So why can we not go up and down these
roads in our ball drives as tour operators? But we
can in Lichfield for example, and we don't pay the
same but we still pay permits in Lichfield, but they're
nothing the same.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
They're nowhere new, so deep I mean, obviously Kackadoo was
managed by the by Parks Australia as I understand it.
Lichfield managed by the Northern Territory Government. And do you
feel as though it's you know, like do you feel
as though you do get more notice and it's it's, oh,
I don't know what the right word is. Maybe a
little bit easier to work things out working with you know,
(04:21):
the NT government for Lichfield.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, well, I guess because it's localized, we can always
ring Lichfield Parks management say hey, what's going on? And
we can do that with Kakadu with like I've got
really good relationships with Kackadoo, there's a there's a tourism advisor.
He talks to me. We have good relationship and he
actually escalated this to me last week and the result
is is now I have photos. So I guess the
(04:44):
answer is because it's Parks Australia, it is a little
harder to communicate with them. But I think one of
the things that's been brought up recently is the communication
that goes out for a start, no notice at all.
And this was brought up in May when you know,
we we were talking about why can't we get into
my book because the road was closed and we were
just getting stone faced responses. Was the response was, well
(05:08):
it's closed because of damage, so show us the damage
so we can understand why we're having trouble running our
tours or why we can't go there. So I've had
to ask the question, wait a few days, get a
photograph which has been sent to me, and I've suggested
send these photos across the board to people and we'll
understand and probably back off or what have you?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Is Magook the only place where this has happened or
have you like, has it been in some other locations?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Okay, so it's not the only place. Obviously, we haven't
had access to Gundlam and that's another story. And we're
hoping it will be opening. We listen to the pos
and they're saying it'll be open next year, but you know,
we'll see. Who knows what the road's like. Will we
be able to get in there? Jim Jim. They gave
us about a week's notice closed on the thirty first October,
(06:01):
and with that road is always an issue. And of
course the heat climbing into gym Gym, it's been hot
out there. We get it. But another example is, for example,
Uber Rock in the wet season, Kaki do offer tour
operators the opportunity to have a key to access the
rock Art area through the wet season. At times when
(06:24):
it's not open to the general public. However, they will
close the Owunpelly roads so we can't actually get there.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
So from that decision I mean, is that a decision
being made by Parks Australia or by traditional owners.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Well, the communication comes from Parks Australia. Whether it's actually
traditional owners or not, who's to say. But I think
the frustration overall is Katie is when we ask questions
as to why we don't really get answers, and if
we understood well, then we'd be able to probably not
be quite as irritated things we're trying to sell products
(07:02):
a year out or six months about we don't know
what's going to be open when, and we'd like reasons.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Well, And this is I think, you know, the biggest
point that I would imagine is becoming quite frustrating for
any tour operator is that if you don't have that
certainty either way, like at least if you know something's
closed and you know the reasons why you've got that certainty,
then you won't book those tours potentially. But if you're
being told something's going to be open for a certain
(07:28):
period of time, then you operate your business accordingly. But
by the sounds of it, that communication is not necessarily there,
and I've no doubt it's having a big impact for
you then, particularly with international tourists who would have to
book very early.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yes, that's right. So for example, this week, I'm taking
a couple out from Sweden who booked in November last
year for next week. For this week, their dream was
to swim in the outback and the natural landscape of
kakado Whilst I don't generally market to say come swimming
in Kackadoo because I'm very cautious do that. I felt
(08:03):
that it was safe and I've had to ask permission
now to go to another site. And if that's not possible,
well then I have to drive to Edith Falls. We're
not going to Lichfield on this tour, so that means
I need to reroute our itinery. It's a three day itinery.
I wish for inker me costs because I have to
drive another four hundred five hundred kilometers. So I still
(08:24):
need to give them this thing that they really really want,
even if it's not in Kakadu, it's somewhere else yep.
And the Kakadu website actually says things like mygook most
likely to be open May to October. Well, this year
was August to October, and it was the same to
a lesser extent with Jim Jim.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Well, and the thing is dip like I've not long
ago come back from New Zealand where my young fella
really wanted to mountain bike in Queenstown. Now, you absolutely
you look at that website, you look at it daily
to make sure that the actual you know that that
track is going to be open to go across and
do what you want to do your book accordingly in
(09:05):
terms of getting there to be able to do it,
and you do understand that whether in different things are
going to have an impact as it did when we
were in New Zealand and lucky we're there for a
little bit longer so it could still do it. But
these are the types of considerations that people take into
account when they're booking something. So then you know, if
changes come about and there's not really a reason given,
(09:27):
it would become utterly frustrating, I would think for you
as an operator trying to market your business to international tourists.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Absolutely well to anybody. But also you know, we're aware
that things close that traditional owners will close for cultural reasons,
story business, et cetera. We totally get that, and that
can happen very at very short notice. Yeah, so all
the too operators I know that we've been talking about.
Of course, we have a clause in our terms and
conditions that says subject to availability, cultural reasons, whether et cetera.
(09:58):
We get it, but we just want better communication from Kakadu.
I don't want to waste my time having to ask
permission to go to places that either I've already paid
for technically through my permit, or alternatively, there are places
that are open to the general public that tour operators
are not allowed to go to. Yeah, so we now
(10:18):
have to ask permission to say can we go there instead?
And we're business owners, we're not children. We are responsible.
We understand the culture, we understand the landscape. That's while
we're to a guide and we're passionate about this country.
And I guess overall it is what it is. But
the communication is probably the bigger issue. And I've got
(10:39):
great relationships out there, and this conversation I do not want,
you know, is not designed to upset those relationships. But
I think we're all banging our heads against the wall
asking for better communications and trust that we do understand is.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
That ultimately what you are after is that better communication.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
That's right, We've got all this technology over the years.
I've done tours where I've done day tours and driven
all the way out to Kakado on the day to
find the gates to be closed. But the report that
came out that morning says that it's open, or maybe
the afternoon before and because there's been a cultural activity
(11:21):
or situation they've had to close it. That's okay, And
yes we do have limited mobile service, etc. But why
don't we have the telecommunications or the technology to text
message to our operators as early as they know six o'clock,
seven o'clock in the morning, I don't know, but as
soon as they know. We should not be notified of
these closures immediately. If it's a short term for like
(11:44):
a sudden yea. And if it's not sudden, well then
we need to see photos, or even if it is sudden,
if it's not cultural, we need to see photos. Why
can't we go down these roads? Why they closed?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, look, I've no doubt that you are not alone
in concerns. I'm sure that we'll probably hear from other
operators or even other tourists in fact, that are probably
going to get in contact with us. So I really
appreciate you having a chat with me this morning. And yeah, look,
I'm keen to continue the discussion, so I'll see whether
we can get in contact with Parks Australia. I know
(12:18):
it's something that does get raised to raised with us.
Pretty well every year, and it just beggars believe to
me that there's not a better system in place so
that it works for everybody, you know, for you guys
as operators, for our traditional owners, and indeed you know,
for tourists wanting to head on out there.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Absolutely. And the other thing is is that making sure
that tourists who are independent, yeah, are given the right
information that this road is not okay for a higher
car or a too will drive, and maybe we set
up a situation where that then naturally drives more tourists
to us as tour operators because they feel they can't
go down there, yep. And then of course the con
(12:58):
based in Darwin. But there are a couple of operators
in Kackadoo who run their business only on Kackadoo and
they rely on this information one hundred percent. I know
you've spoken to a couple over the years. I remember
hearing it, yep. And I haven't spoken to one or
two of them yet, but they'd be mortified to know
that their last maybe three or four weeks of running
(13:19):
was just shut down last week with zero notice.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yep. Well, deb, thank you so much for your time
this morning. I really appreciate it. If there is anyone
else that is keen to have a chat to us
that you know of, send them our way, because I
think it's a discussion that needs to be had, particularly
you know, when we are looking at a time right
now territory is number one on Netflix across the world, Like,
(13:42):
we want to capitalize on this in the right ways.
We want you know, you want tour operators, you want
us here in Darwin, you want traditional loaners, you want
everybody to benefit from that.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah. And on top of that, finally, tourism mentee spend
millions and minds of dollars promoting this country and we
can't get there.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah yep, well, deb yeah, that is incredibly frustrating. Thank
you so very much for having a chat with me
this morning. I really appreciate it. Thank you,
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