Downtown Revitalized Including Bonrue Bakery

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
A lot of people talk about not wanting change and
seeing growth as this negativething and wanting to keep things
the same as the way that theyare and, at the same time,
people are born to be creativeand create things right.
It's a human nature thing isthat we want to create something
.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
When you're a small business owner, when you're an
entrepreneur, all you do ischange.
That's all you do.
Every day is somethingdifferent.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
It's true there's so many people that revolve around
this industry that that 18% isthe construction, but then the
layers beyond.
That is much, much higher.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
From the Blueform Media Studios.
This is the 435 Podcast, thepulse of Southern Utah.
If you're looking for a nice cupof coffee and you're in
downtown St George, fs Coffee Co, that's where you're going to
want to stop.
It's right there on the cornerof Tabernacle and Main Street in
downtown St George.
So if you've got a bicycle,ride it on down there and grab a

(00:58):
drip of coffee and tell themthe 435 guys sent you.
We got a treat, a literal treatfor everybody.
We treat, a literal treat foreverybody.
We got a little treat, treatfor everybody.
Chris conners, with the newlybranded bonroo bakery, formerly
known as farmstead.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
you're here, I'll take a sip as the bonroo is
branded.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
It's beautiful you got sweet hats.
You brought us swag.
You brought us some, uh, bondroom swag.
I love it.
Yeah, yeah, um, it was.
This was a, I think.
Were you nervous about thebrand change a little bit?
Oh, I was.
You gotta get in, you gotta getin there.
I was terrified, you were oh mygod, I was yeah because of my

(01:40):
thought is because of like thefacebook whenever there's like
changes, people like panic, likewhat's happening or what.
What was the fear coming from?
I?

Speaker 2 (01:48):
think my biggest fear was it somehow going to saint
george word of mouth first.
Yeah, right, um the positivecomments on always saint george
word it's very uplifting if yougo to that um uh, I mean the.
The response we received on ourown page was insane.
Yeah, um, it was a hundredpercent positive.

(02:09):
There wasn't one negativecomment.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah, I was shocked.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
It was.
It was crazy and I was, and wedid so much research behind it.
On, I love the name, I thinkthe name's great and I think
it's more fitting.
I hate to say this and I thinkit's more fitting.
I hate to say this, but I thinkit's more fitting than
farmstead, because when peopleand and we've said this before
when people come to bonru, theysay you know what?

(02:32):
this reminds me of a, of abakery in france, or you know,
in europe and so it has somesome european feel to the name
and so, yeah, I was terrified, Alot of sleepless nights and and
, like I was telling McCray, I'mso sick of names, I mean I'm
terrible with that, I'm not thecreative type with any of that

(02:53):
stuff.
So, um, someone coming in withuh, uh, I just, I just kind of
left it in the in the hands ofmore of of more creative and
more talented people than me,which isn't hard, you know,
being more talented and morecreative than me, because I'm
not that person, or even beingsmarter than me.
But, McRae hated it right out ofthe gate.

(03:14):
Mcrae hated it.
No, I didn't.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
No, I just couldn't get it to roll off my tongue.
I was saying that day in thefocus group I kept saying to
myself hey, let's go to farm orfarmstead, right, let's go to
Bonne Rue.
And initially I was like I justcan't get it to roll.
I can't, I don't know likefarmstead I I've I've seen
farmstead since before it wasfarmstead, you know, and it's

(03:38):
just farmstead.
And uh, so that day I was like,oh, I liked it.
But in me I'm that you knowthat NIMBY or that not NIMBY,
we're going to talk about NIMBYsthat person that doesn't want
change, right, I was like, butafter some thinking, and now I'm
like let's go to Bonnaroo.

(03:59):
It's like it just flows, it'sgreat.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, I think it's good, I love it.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
And what's funny, flows it's great yeah, I think
it's good, I love it and, what'sfunny, everyone's resistant to
change.

Speaker 4 (04:08):
Yeah, we're all resistant, all resistant, and
you're gonna definitely havepeople who are like I hate it.
What have you done?
And then, two months later,they'll say they'll forget about
they'll forget about it.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Well, isn't it funny too when, when you're in, when
you're a small business owner,when you're an entrepreneur, all
you do is change, that's allyou do is change you are.
Every day is something differentand you're always dealing with
that adversity.
And to me it was like it'sweird because I've this is my

(04:36):
seventh concept, my seventhrestaurant and every five years
I've actually opened arestaurant and sold a restaurant
and I I was like I'm neverdoing that again.
After farmstead, I'm like thisis my baby, this is my child,
I'm going with this.
This is my meal.
Ticket and literal meal ticketliteral meal ticket.

(04:57):
And then five years later, I'mlike we changed, we changed the
name.
I didn't sell anything, but wechanged the name.
So I'm like, yeah, for me itwas kind of a little bit easier.
But, um, yeah, I'm glad youguys like it, I love it.
So, and and the response fromthe community has been fantastic
.
So, and I, I, I, I just lovethis community so much because

(05:18):
it's just a such a positivecommunity.
It's just fantastic, yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Support yeah it's very european.
Uh, it was inspired, it's, it'sa.
It was a french bakery to beginwith, right, french style
pastries to begin with, and soto really have it match when you
walk in, I I think makes themost sense because, for, for all
of us that know farmstead frombefore, like the americana I

(05:43):
made made this comment when wewere talking in the focus group
about like this Americana feelsthat does this take away from
the Americana feel?
But I think it.
You know it's a made up word,right, and so when we think of,
like, what is America?
It's a melting pot of all thesedifferent cultures, and
Southern Utah has become a placefor people from everywhere in
the world, right, and so I thinkit.
I think it's really fitting, andI think you're going to look

(06:05):
back, probably even just a yearfrom now, and be like, why did
we ever go with farmstead?
This doesn't.
You know what I mean.
And I I think, uh, especiallynew people coming into the area
will feel St George isn't just,uh, this small town trying to be
a big town.
It, there's going to be a lotof these elements that will keep
cropping up to where it makesus, really continue to make us

(06:26):
unique Right, not just thelandscape.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
I think we need to continue to push that envelope.
I mean we push it.
Yeah, I mean we could use BonneRue as an example, but we
should continue to kind of pushfor little, small incremental
improvements.
Yeah, especially with our just,with our community.
Yeah, in general in my opinion.
Yeah, especially with our just,with our community in general
in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, and not everybody has that opinion.
I think it's easy, especiallyfor the people that are born and
raised here.
You know the city didn't changefrom, you know, 1920 to 1970.
And then from 1970 to 99, itreally didn't change a whole ton
.
And then you know, sincebasically 20, I bet you 2017, I
think it was right, after thatbig five marketing campaign

(07:11):
through greater Zion, to bringpeople to the national parks at
least because we moved here in2015,.
We went up to I've sold thestory before.
It was Christmas day and nobodywas in Zion.
We drove up, we we maybe sawtwo other cars up there on
Christmas day in 2015.
By 2017, they were runningtrams and there were lines like
down Springdale Boulevard, right, or the yeah, it's Springdale

(07:34):
Boulevard, and it was justpacked.
You know it was like the wordwas out the St George wasn't
this little hidden gem anymoreand so and we've just been on an
upward trajectory ever since2017.

Speaker 4 (07:44):
Right, that's the big five advertising, right.
But I want to push back alittle bit on what you were
saying about the.
It didn't change from like the1920s to the 1970s because in
reality it was always in decline, like financially, economically
, it was just a fight to stayalive here.
So like if you talk to myhusband's family that started

(08:05):
here.
All their business was out oftown.
Every kid who grew up had toleave town right to be able to
make it economically, to be ableto find a job.
So even though we say, oh, itdidn't change and we loved it
and it just stayed the same,it's this remembrance that is
clouded because you'reforgetting, or we're all
forgetting, that, like when atown stays that small my, my mom

(08:27):
, grew up in parowan.
Parowan has stayed like 2 000people.
It was 2 000 people when shewas a kid, it's 2 000 people now
.
I think it might be 2 500, butit stayed very small for now,
yeah, and they'll probablyexpand right.
But all this time, what you didif you grew up in parowan is you
left, so there's, there's adifference and most people

(08:47):
wanted to leave too.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
It wasn't even just like they.
They could probably stay, butthere was no people to build
businesses and and grow and theyprobably were like we would
like to stay but we can't.
We have we got to go.
And the kids younger kids theyalways want to.
I want to leave my small townand go to the big city.
And then they have kids andthey're like I want to move back
right, which has kind ofhappened which is happening
massively here which is everyoneI talked to that doesn't live

(09:11):
in saint george wants to getback to saint george?
where, when they were growing up, they were probably like I
gotta get out of here and samewith my.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
My mom also grew up in parowan and my family's from
parowan and and uh, so it'sinteresting.
It's the, the.
The comparison is interestingand even I'll push back on, even
from 80, from 70, 80, that'sreally when I think the incline
really started was yeah, thei-15 was connected in 71, right,

(09:40):
so, like they, they cut throughthe gorge in 71, and so that
was like we've had steady, likepretty steady upward trajectory
since then until, obviously, thecrash.
But then I think you're I meanthe.
It's like we had this up uptrend and then around that time
when Instagram and every youknow all that marketing and all
the you know St George ZionNational Park at all, it all hit

(10:04):
the mainstream.
And then since then it's justup.
Yeah, it's been up Even morestraight up.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Do you think that there's still more people
leaving St George because ofwhat Danielle described as like
going?
They have to go and get jobssomewhere else.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
I think it's becoming less and less.
I think it's still, I thinkit's still out there.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Is our economy diverse enough to where we can
offer all those?
Not, yet it's getting there.
It's getting there.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
It's not there yet.
I mean, compared to 10 yearsago, absolutely there's a huge
difference, a lot morediversification.
But I think we still have aways to go.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
So I would say, from a diversification standpoint
because I ran this research onhow diverse is our economic base
as percentages of the economyBecause it's one thing to say,
do we have enough jobs, is thereenough total jobs to where you
know somebody graduates fromhigh school or college Can they
find a job here?

(11:07):
We don't, we don't have enoughof that, but we do have a
diverse enough economy to wherethere's options for a lot of
different things for people todo right.
So, like, if they want to getinto manufacturing and
engineering, there is, there'sjobs here, where 10 years ago
that wasn't necessarily as trueright.

(11:29):
Where, if they want to get intomarketing, there's marketing
options.
If they want to get into health, there's health.
If they want to get intogovernment.
So I think the thediversification, especially
since the nineties, issignificantly different.
In 2008, 30% of the entireeconomy was built on
construction, just constructionalone, and in the, at that, 30
percent and right.
This is like 2005 to 2007 andso when the market crashed
because of the bloated housinginventory that just devastated

(11:53):
the local economy, where, uh,and I was going to pull it up,
so I had the exact number, but Ithink it's about.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
I feel like it's about 15.

Speaker 4 (11:59):
Oh, it's 15.
I think it's like 18 is thelast number that I heard.
Oh, that's interesting, yeah,but it's still huge.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
It's still huge, it's still maybe 18 that's still a
big that's still a big number,which is why you know the whole,
the whole conversation ofpeople that are, you know,
complaining about the building.
If you cut off building, youcut off 18 of our of our local
economy, which is which spreadsvery.

(12:25):
I was talking to a builderabout this the other day because
he was like, too, he's like Ibet you two or between two or
300 people touch every home thatI build, from my crew to all
the subcontracting crews, theengineering, everything, and it
falls down into the realtors andlenders and title companies.

(12:46):
Like there's so many peoplethat revolve around this
industry that even that, that 18percent is the construction but
then the layers beyond that ismuch, much higher it also falls
down into food trucks and peoplepicking up their breakfast at
bonru, like it's exponentiallyaffecting all of our economy.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yes, absolutely so.
It's actually mining, loggingand construction, which
construction you can classify ina couple of different ways,
because this is Bureau of LaborStatistics for the US.
This is St George specifically,it's 11.1% of the economy as of
January of 2025.
Interesting, Exactly.

(13:26):
So there's some tangent stuff,because I think other services
is 2.6%.
Some of that stuff tradetransportation utilities I think
some of that could be,depending on how you mix it in
Trades might fit intoconstruction, where it's like
the electricians and the HVACand plumbing, and some of that
stuff might get lumped intotrade transportation, which

(13:48):
that's the biggest one.
Trade transportation utilitiesis 18%.
So between construction, tradetransportation utilities, which
is probably mostly constructionand development type stuff, is
18%.
So those two things combined is29% of the local economy.
But utilities has grown quite abit, transportation's grown
quite a bit and I know that'sjust going to with the new

(14:10):
inland port that's going to groweven more.
There's going to be lots ofjobs there.
Our unemployment is about fourand a half percent, so it's
higher than the state and it'shigher than the national average
.
But that comes into thissecondary category, which is
transition is finding places forpeople to live.
You know it's like you can,especially as restaurants, right

(14:31):
, and you know the leisurehappens.

Speaker 4 (14:34):
Well.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
Robert as I understand it.

Speaker 4 (14:37):
Unemployment is actually affected by our
retirement community because ifyou retire early, you are
actually counted as unemployed,even though you're choosing to
be unemployed.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
So that does actually affect our numbers in St George
?
Yeah, and that makes a lot ofsense.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
That's got to be a huge effect Because, as an
employer, I can't find enoughpeople Right and I think most
people can't.

Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah, we definitely counted our business.
I think that number is like Imean 4.5%.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
I think it's closer to maybe 2%.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
It has to be right and that's an interesting.
I didn't realize I wish to beemployed, which is weird.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
We count unemployment and we keep changing the way we
count employment.
I feel like they change, likewhat's the…?

Speaker 2 (15:17):
They change the field goal.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, they change the goalposts Exactly.
Well, and the interesting thingwith employment too.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
Now you know, we see all the work from home or the
remote.
You don't have to have a job inSt George to live here either,
which we see a ton of A lot ofentrepreneurialism in general in

(15:51):
St George.
Whether you have so many peoplethat have found ways to not
have to depend on a job in StGeorge.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, and they still want.
They don't want to necessarilyhave to work out of their house,
they prefer to go to some kindof office and have the
networking piece to it.
So they've really found thisbecause there's a large
community of that so.
So I think when we're we're wekind of started in
congratulations on bonroo man,this stuff I have to point this
out before we keep going.
This is called a what.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
That is incredible a s'more sandwich, so this is a
s'more sandwich of 10.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
That is a graham cracker cookie with.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
I've never seen that one um, and then dipped in
chocolate.
I can't wait to eat that Ican't wait, I mean it.
You know I'm, I'm not.
I'm not a baker, I'm not, I'm,I'm an operator.
You know, I just try to findtalented people and we spoke
about that on the last podcast.
Is is finding talent.
So like doing all of this stuffand the piping that it takes to

(16:47):
do our our filled chocolatecroissant and artists man, I
mean it's just, it's unreal, andyou just kind of, I mean, you
find talented people and you'relike, okay, go off.
And you know, be, be wild, gooff and great.
It's like, go off and do yourthing, I'll leave you alone.
Let me know what you need tosucceed and I'm here if you need
me.

(17:07):
And you know, it's just, it's.
It's been fantastic to see kids, too, in our local community.
18 year olds, 20 year olds comein no, absolutely nothing about
food, and then they just catchon and they're just like man,
they their eyes light up andthen they're doing stuff at home

(17:28):
and you know we have fourpeople that started their own
business, oh yeah, from fromfarmstead.
That's awesome, um, you know, uh, and, and they've all been
successful yeah, which is so, sorewarding for me to see yeah
you it's just it kind of bringsa tear to my eye when they come
in I was like, how's yourbusiness?
And they're like, oh, it'sgoing really well, it's.

(17:50):
It's awesome to see.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
And and, and this is the cool thing, right, Going
back to um, you know, empowering, thinking of St George being on
life support for you know, ahundred years.
Right, no water, tough, toughenvironment to live.
Right, we get H, we get AC, andit makes it a little bit easier
.
Right, we get a freeway, and itmakes it a little bit easier,
and then we start to move on.
But then you have thesebusinesses that create

(18:13):
businesses, and that's that'sone of those.
You know, a lot of people talkabout not wanting change and
seeing growth as this negativething and wanting to keep things
the same as the way that theyare and, at the same time,
people are born to be creativeand create things.
Right, this, it's a human naturething is that we want to create
something, and havingbusinesses create other
businesses is what helps reallyhave this compounding effect in

(18:37):
in every aspect of life, and italso gives people roots in St
George to where they want totake care and love their
community even more.
Right, when they're able tostay here.
It's not a lily pad tosomewhere else.
It's as beautiful as it is, asit tastes, right, and, danielle,
you had mentioned how.
You know it can look pretty,but it might not taste great,

(18:57):
but it always tastes as good asit looks, which is a cool combo.
How have you been able toattract?
Thinking of St Georgeorge beingthis smaller town, has it been
difficult for you to attracttalent because you're bringing
talent from every man everywhere.
Yeah, like you're bringingpeople from not just vegas, but
like europe and it's incredibleall over the place.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
You know it, it recently it has.
At the very beginning it was,it was fairly easy to recruit
from Las Vegas.
Now, from Las Vegas now we'vebecome very popular, right,
fortunate.
I mean I thank God every daythat how popular we've become.

(19:35):
So now I mentioned the name andthey're like yeah, I'll apply.
Yeah, you know things like that.
At the very beginning it was alittle bit more difficult, but I
would just call some contactsin Las Vegas and say, hey, we're
looking for this, we're lookingfor this.
Do you know anyone?
And fortunately, through our uh,one of our founders, chris
Herron, who passed away a yearafter we, we opened um, he had a

(19:59):
huge name, um in Las Vegas.
He was the most talented pastrychef in las vegas.
When he was there, yeah, um,and so he, he would make calls
and stuff like that.
So we were able to recruittalent.
Now, the first it's funnybecause the first year I you
know we were making absolutely.
I was making absolutely nomoney because I was just paying

(20:21):
people to get here.
Yeah, right, I was just likedude, I will give you, and all
of them stayed at the jewel uh,which is right above farmstead,
because it was the only placethat I could get, I mean 2020 to
2025, 2024.
I was like, where did they stay?
they stayed at the one placewhere the uh, the psychic is on,

(20:41):
yeah, yeah and I was like dudeI kind of like I need to find
you something else, so you know,and then jewel would give us
some deals because we had at onetime, I think we had six
apartments oh wow, in jewel ohdang, you know, and uh, and now
we've gotten to the point towhere it's like, okay, now you,
I could pay you enough to whereyou can afford your own

(21:04):
apartment, but it's still.
that's one of the things that isholding us back is the cost of
living, or the idea of maybe notnecessarily pushing that
envelope, but saying, hey, weneed a little bit.
We need to think of a differentway to do something different
with housing so I can recruitmore people.
We need to think of a differentway to do something different

(21:24):
with housing, you know, so I canrecruit more people.
Right, you know?
I mean, I started at 15, I'm ata hundred people.
Yeah, I want to.
I want to be around 200.
Probably by the time we're donewith expansion in Southern Utah
, we'll probably have 200 peopleemployed.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, which is incredible by the way.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
And I can't just say you, 200 people employed, yeah
which is incredible, by the wayand I can't just say, you know,
go to the apartment behind thepsychic and give that lady 100
bucks or whatever it is, youknow, motel looking we need a
solution for that, in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
Um sorry, to go off on changing those because I
think it's a good transition,because what I, what I wanted,
what we wanted to talk about,because talent.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
That's what you need is the downtown plan.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
the general plan we've been it about is the
downtown plan.
The general plan We've been.
It's been a working plan forabout two years, right, because
I think the first working planwas about 2022, 2023.

Speaker 4 (22:12):
About five years ago.
Believe it or?

Speaker 1 (22:14):
not, was it?
Was it that far?
Ok, so and then you had, youknow, people come in consultants
saying, ok, let me look at yourdemographics, let me look at
the way the city is designed andlet's come up with a plan.
How do we zone out the city ofSt George, but then more
specifically the downtown sector?
Right, that's right.
And so then they fireconsultants and then they think

(22:37):
that consultant doesn't knowwhat they're talking about.
So we take that plan and maybewe send them away and we twist
that plan and it seems like ithasn't changed a whole lot in
the last two years at least,from like the original downtown
plan.

Speaker 4 (22:49):
It hasn't changed hardly at all.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
Yeah, it hasn't changed, hardly at all.
How do you feel, like, um, thestruggle to go through it?
Where do you get do you get themost pushback from inside city
hall?
Or do you get the most pushpushback from the public
feedback like where do you,where do you get that pressure?
Because we we have to evolve,right, especially as we're

(23:12):
growing businesses, but thecity's changing and you have all
these different opinions.
Where do you find that thebiggest friction point in this
general plan?
Where have you seen it anyway?

Speaker 4 (23:23):
you know it's interesting as we're talking
about change.
People are fearful.
Right Change feels scary, itfeels threatening.
How's this going to change myway of life, my quality of life,
how my family exists here?
So when you do things like makea general plan, it feels
threatening to people at times.
So to your question I feel likegenerally the biggest pushback

(23:47):
comes from the general publicjust not being educated on.
Well, what is a general plan?
Why does it matter?
It's really just this bubble,this overview of how can we
continue forward, and even justthat word forward, it's funny.
And even just that word forward.
It's funny.
When we were doing the generalplan.

(24:07):
There are all these triggerwords.
You know, progressive forwardmove, building high density.
All of those words are triggerwords that in reality, they are
what we need because we are anever-evolving people like we.
There's no such thing assitting still you, we don't sit
still.
We change every single day.
We can pretend and say I'm thesame as I was 10 years ago, not

(24:28):
even close.
I'm not the same as I wasyesterday, but it just feels
scary to people.
So I feel like our bestopportunity to move forward in
an intelligent way so that allof us who own businesses can
progress and help our employeesto find housing.
I mean, this is a big issuewith my business also.
I have people driving as far asfrom Parowan, from Apple Valley

(24:51):
, from Hilldale, coming inbecause they can't afford
housing here and they're comingto work with us.
It's education and I know weall share different education
things because we all know eachother and sometimes we'll text
like, hey, have you seen this?
Have you heard this?
If there was a way for us to getour general public to start

(25:12):
listening to podcasts, right, Imean, that are really about what
do you do when you live in acity that is growing rapidly.
What does that look like?
Like what does incrementaldevelopment that's healthy for
our economy look like?
What do streets that make senseat a human that look like?
Like what does incrementaldevelopment that's healthy for
our economy look like?
What do streets that make senseat a human scale, look like and
that actually grow wealth forpeople?
What does a street look likethat grows?

(25:34):
Well, if people understood that, then it wouldn't feel
frightening.
When they see a bike lanecoming in or a wider sidewalk or
a trail, they would say, oh,that's about building business
instead of um, oh, that's forpeople in Lycra you know and we
don't like them and they'reobnoxious and we're going to
have a lot of them in town thisweekend and you know,
some of them are obnoxious,they're humans and so, you know,

(25:59):
you run into a couple of jerkyguys on bikes and then you don't
like people on bikes anymore,and and so we just have these
weird conflict points that don'treally look at the actual issue
, which is, over time, we wantpeople to be able to live here,
and we want people to be able tolive here in a healthy way that
they can build wealth, buildgenerational wealth and just

(26:19):
have a healthy quality of life.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
So I think back and you probably don't know this,
know this at least, and I don'tthink the three of us other than
you might know anything aboutthis, but I'm thinking about the
last time they built a generalplan.
I think that the demographicand the cultural setup of St
George, coming as a LDScommunity, primarily LDS
community, you know theorganization within that LDS

(26:41):
communities.
You had wards, you have stakes,you have these communities
built into the culture that areoutside of government, right,
and so you had this ability tocollaborate in large groups, and
it's less so now.
I think it's about 50% of thecounty is really active LDS, and
so you have just the smallerportion of the culture that has

(27:02):
this community effort into it.
And we you sent me a podcast, uh, on strong towns and he was
talking about you know how do we?
How do we collectively getcommunities that are, um, that
can organize themselves andsaying, hey, this is what we
want in this small community,and this is what we want in this
small community, cause I, Ithink there's this one size fits

(27:23):
all general plan when thepopulation isn't one hundred and
ten thousand and it was only atfifty thousand.
Yeah, you could make a generalplan and have some pretty good
consensus, but it gets more andmore difficult as you get bigger
and bigger.
Do you think the consensusbuilding is really all that
different from before, that itis today, and does that question
make sense?

Speaker 4 (27:43):
I feel like consensus building is a little different,
and I personally think one ofour biggest problems is social
media.
It's such a blessing and it'ssuch a curse because, instead of
people actually sitting downand talking through issues in a
diplomatic and intelligent way,they just fire things off.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
I mean.

Speaker 4 (28:02):
I shared with you guys last night one that just
kind of made me laugh.
I mean, this lady was justfurious that someone had built a
home next to her, on theproperty next to her, because it
was just rude.
Is what she wrote?
It's rude, it blocked my viewand that post just made me I'm
like, okay, we need to reallybreak this down because we live

(28:23):
in a place where people reallybelieve in personal property
rights and they believe inindependence.
You should be able to come hereand build a business like
Kristen and just bring yourwares and market them.
But then in the same breath youhear people say things.
I bet if I asked that lady shewould be like I believe strongly
in personal property rights forme, but not for you.

(28:46):
Who's building next door?
And so I feel like social mediahas made us into like reactors,
these fast reactors where wejust like spit out.
If she'd had a few days tothink about that is my point and
someone to talk it through withand say, hey, I know you, I
know you believe in personalproperty rights, so let's talk
about what this house next doorreally means to you.

(29:07):
Like if you were the onebuilding it, would you want me
restricting you and having thatconversation, I feel like could
have dialed back her emotion andit wouldn't have gone out on St
George word of mouth and becomethis explosive dialogue that
doesn't even make any sense anddoesn't go anywhere.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Well it also.
There's this friction pointbetween she has property rights
as well and she might bethinking they're infringing on
my own property rights, as I washere already and now, because
of what you're building, it'saffecting my quality of life and
my vision and expectation ofwhat my property rights are
Right, and so she's like it'syour property rights versus my

(29:44):
property rights are right, andso she's like it's your property
rights versus my propertyrights.
And so when you get into thatheadbutt, you're both shouting
the same thing at each otherwith what solution comes in
right, and so it's a non.
You end up at a stalemate,right?

Speaker 4 (29:59):
Totally, and I mean what you're bringing up is a
really good point, because whatit speaks to is zoning.
Like why did we create zoning?
We created it because we werelike well, the people in the
5,000 square foot houses don'twant to live by the people in
the 1,000 square foot houses,and not next to a Costco or a
Costco.
And so we created these zoningplans that now, in a sense, are

(30:21):
really like counterintuitive,because we are like saying we,
everything belongs in a exactspace.
But if you go back to the waycommunities were built
originally which is the thingthat something like Bonne Rue
speaks to, right You're, youwalk into Bonne Rue and you go
oh, it feels like I'm in aFrench village.
Well, what does that feel like?
It feels like craftsmanship, itfeels like neighbors.

(30:44):
It feels like community.
It feels like I come in andyou're the owner of the store
and I know you and I talk to you, and so people are like I don't
want apartments next to me, Idon't want commercial next to me
, but actually I want to live ina charming neighborhood where I
know my neighbors and I feelsafe in my community and those
two things are contradicting,because we've created such

(31:05):
strong zoning that separatespeople in ways that if you went
back to the early building of StGeorge downtown where the shops
are, a shop on the front we hadour business Larkin plumbing
was where Capoletti's is rightnow and then there's like an
apartment behind it.
And then that's how you wouldbuild is you would just kind of
like add on as needed.

(31:26):
But we've gone so far away fromthat with zoning and with plans
.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
And I think, evolution of people's
expectations, right.
We go from retirement communitylife support to retirement
community to tourism right and aresort community, and so we
keep evolving tourism right anda resort community, and so we
keep evolving.
And so the expectations of the,of the new people that are here

(31:51):
, um, supersede that of thepeople that were here before.
So it's like it used to be okaythat you wanted to.
You didn't want to have to getin a car and drive, you want to
be able to walk to work, so youwanted commercial and your
housing to be connected.
But then you get to this pointwhere I know now I'm in
retirement and I want it dead,silent, quiet with no lights
when the sun's down, and theirexpectations of life.
So finding balance is likethere's an area here where this

(32:14):
is the type of life you can havehere.
This is the type of life youcan have here, and that's where
I've come.
I used to beat up Ivans prettybad about being a bedroom
community like this, likethey're not carrying their
weight of, you know, theexpectations on the community
because their prices are thehighest in the County.
And when now I live out thereand I'm like, oh, I think

(32:34):
there's a place for a reallyquiet, just neighborhood
community, right, so like beingable to have that, that
different, um, differentvillages, so to speak.
You want this kind of lifestyle.
It's over here.
But now downtown is, it's adowntown, it's urban.
Right, we're like pre-urban aswe're growing.
And I look at that downtownplan and there's this, these

(32:54):
different scales.
Right, there's lively, there'sinterconnected, where commercial
and residential mix, there'sthe lively which is basically
all commercial, not a whole lotof residential, and then there's
the traditional neighborhoodzone.
So you have these differentzones within the downtown and in
my mind I'm thinking, no,downtown is like it's an urban
area.
It's kind of all lively at thispoint, right, no matter where

(33:16):
you drive.
Now there's a few places, likeyou know, off 400 and 400, like
as you get a little bit closerto the freeway but further from
main street and St GeorgeBoulevard.
But that evolution of how do wecreate an urban St George that
feels good, and is it thegovernment's job to do that or

(33:36):
is it the neighborhood's job todo that?
Who gets to have that?
Say, and that's that's.
The tough thing is that I don'tknow.
I don't really have an answerto it.

Speaker 4 (33:41):
Well and we've talked about this before I mean, at
the end of the day, if we wantedto do the smartest thing we
could possibly do, maybe wewould just like literally end
zoning right Like just blanketstate, blanket over the entire
city, just say, all right, we'vealready built a framework, now
go.
What do you want to do withthis framework?
Because the framework's alreadythere.

(34:03):
That's so just unconscionableto them because, it's like well,
what if I end up with a pigfarm next to my house?

Speaker 1 (34:09):
Those are the arguments you start to hear
You're going to undo zoning.
Just a ridiculous yeah.

Speaker 4 (34:13):
Right.
So I feel like the general planand the downtown general plan
is a city's attempt, hopefullynot to discourage but to
encourage creativity andhopefully it keeps evolving.
That's the danger in creatingthose kinds of plans is that you
do to your point like you putthese spaces oh this is the

(34:33):
lively space.
Well, what if the lively spaceinches over a block?
It should, if it naturally, youknow, if someone naturally
wants it to.
So it should be looked at asbubbles and it should be ever
evolving and it really should bedictated by the people who are
building downtown, who arerunning businesses downtown.
That's where it's sochallenging for cities to
actually collect feedback andimplement it in a way we set up.

(34:59):
I would love for us to be ableto go backwards from that and do
it differently.
And I don't blame the people atcity hall, like they're all
doing their very best to reallymake St George.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
But they're just abiding by the rule Exactly, and
and every time like I looked atthe city um, ordinance and and
the permits and stuff, it'scrazy, it's crazy.
It's crazy.
Like I, there's so manydifferent zones Right, and like
I built in downtown Right and Iwas lucky enough to find like an
empty lot.

(35:31):
And thanks to McCray McCrayhelper.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
You're welcome.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
I was.
I was able to to buy that emptylot and I kind of wanted to
build a home that fit indowntown.
And then I'm like I want tobuild an ADU back there but I
have enough room for two ADUssmall, so I could rent them out
to my employees.
That's not allowed, right?

(36:01):
And yet it's not allowed yet butit's like, but I feel like I've
only been here for five years,little more than five years.
I feel like every time I go tothe city and ask for something,
it's like well, we're working onthis and I feel like it's.
It's constantly kind of moving,but I feel like it should be

(36:22):
community driven with that likeI can't believe how much, how
much stuff the the bike lane goton university I thought that
was a great idea and, likepeople, I was like, yeah, that
seems like a solid idea, like abike lane all the way through
main street, like a dedicatedbike lane where you could just
put it on one side of the roadand it could be both traffic

(36:45):
with bikes, cause I, I, I ridethat with my boys, my family,
that my boys are eight and six.
I don't want to ride on mainstreet, just with a a little
line, I mean, a car could justcome up and plow us, you know,
but a little median it slowstraffic down.
All that kind of stuff I'm evenafraid to bring that up.
Yeah, you know, but it would begreat if we could ride from our

(37:08):
house, which is right off ofmain street, all the way down
main street on bluff, hit thevirgin river trail and go on.
Yeah, great bike ride, becausethat's what's special about
saint george what?

Speaker 1 (37:18):
what's the negative feedback like?
What do people say about that?

Speaker 4 (37:21):
it'll slow down cars, it'll get in the way of cars
parking parking there'll be,there'll be a couple cars that
can't park on that side of thestreet.
See, this is where the conflict.
This is where I see that wehave feedback from the community
that people just aren'tunderstanding what they're
saying, because we're gettingfeedback saying we hate traffic,
we're so frustrated by thetraffic.

(37:43):
So the solution in a lot ofpeople's minds is all roads need
to be for only cars and we needto widen them and we need to
make them fast, and that will doaway with traffic.
We know full well that isexactly how you make traffic
worse.
You induce demand.
More people drive, more peopledrive aggressively.

(38:03):
You have increased death.
You have increased you knowfrustration.
You have decreased quality oflife.
You have decreased air quality.
You have people who I mean.
The numbers that I've seen arethat 40% of people in our
society can't don't have adriver's license right, so it's
either they're just too young orthey're too old, or they have
some reason why they can't drive, or they just can't afford a
car.

(38:23):
So there's all these reasonswhy you just might not drive.
So almost half of our society.
But we're saying like the onlypeople that we're going to
really focus on are people whoare able to afford a car and
we're going to put all of ourmoney into our infrastructure
that is for cars, basicallyforcing you to have a car to be
able to be one of the people whoworks for Chris to get to the

(38:43):
bakery.
And so when we get that kind offeedback that people just want
to be able to drive fast andthey want traffic to go away and
their solution is one thatexcludes anybody who's outside
of a car, well then we're headeddown this dangerous road where
we all of a sudden are the exactthing that everybody says they
don't want to be, which is LosAngeles.
We don't want to be LA, and yetwe head down that road and do

(39:07):
the exact same pattern that theydid.
And how do we back out of that?
So to me, it's all education,because I don't think anybody is
saying this, because they aretrying to harm our community.
They want our community to begreat, and their idea of how our
community would be great isabsolutely no bike lanes.
You know, I need you out of theway of my car.
If you ask that same personwhen they're standing on 700

(39:29):
East with their grandkids tryingto go to the Cox auditorium,
they're going to say man, I wishpeople would slow down.
I wish there was a safe placefor me to walk and I think that
that 700 East was kind ofadvertised poorly.
It really is an extension ofour trail system so it connects
to the trail system up on RedHills Parkway.
You'll be able to go all theway up and connect.
It will be a connection down tothe lower trail system once we

(39:50):
get the street going underneathI-15.
Awesome, so you can actuallywalk on it.
It'll be striped Like you canride your bike on it, but you
can walk on it like any of ourtrail systems.
So it really is just aseparation for humans outside of
cars to be able to safelyaccess the university.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
And it gives people more options other than a car,
because that's the thing is, ifyou give people other options
than driving, then that's partof what helps reduce the traffic
, the parking concerns andwhatnot, because then not
everybody is like I've got totake my car to that area, you
can walk to it, you can bike toit and that's yeah.
That whole discussion is superinteresting and, with zoning in

(40:28):
general, the reason why I soldthat lot to you, which I'm glad,
I'm glad it worked out.
But I own a little townhomecomplex, two parcels down that
are fantastic and they're like,they're always in demand,
they're we're able to keep theprice because they're small and
you can't really find many small, affordable things in downtown.

(40:52):
Your vacancy rate is prettymuch zero, basically zero, yeah
and uh.
So we, when we got that, we alsogot this lot.
That's the exact same lot, theexact same, pretty much exact
same dimensions and everything.
And our idea was okay, we'regonna get this lot and we want
to do the exact same thing.
It's six little townhomes thatare two bed, one bath, 750

(41:13):
square feet.
Perfect, because we, because wethe university is growing,
college students could couldrent it, young people could rent
it, people we want.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
Elderly people that don't need a Sun River Villa.
Yes, right, like it's, $500,000for two bedroom.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
So Arthur Ott was like that's perfect, it's two
lots down.
Well, no, because of someArbitrary line, arbitrary line
that was on the same block twoparcels down.
There's this from 1995, therewas some zoning thing put there
that no more townhomes.

(41:52):
And so now 25, 30 years later,I'm glad, 30 years later I'm
glad they did a traffic studyand this traffic study is very
scientific.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
Okay, they have somebody sit there and they
count every car that drives by,because that never traffic, is
that?

Speaker 2 (42:06):
literally the study, the traffic studies.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
They literally sit there and they'll have their
little umbrella and they'll sitthere and they'll count every
car.
Because you know, you know andsay george, exactly you know and
say george, that one weekendversus another weekend you're
going to get two completelydifferent you know, scenarios,
right?
what oh this?
This thing's going on in town,so over here it's busy and then
it's it's crickets over here.
Right, these traffic studiesdrive me insane, but but these

(42:31):
are the reasons why we havethese arbitrary zoning lines,
right?
You talked about it before aswell.
Well, so, thinking about thisis the primary election results
for 2023.
So the last election you ranthis is primary election.
So if we were to compare theprimary election of local
government to, let's say, thisyear, because it's an

(42:52):
off-election year for thenational elections we're
probably going to get a similarresult in this election as we
did in this primary race.
There was a total turnout of35% in St George.
Total turnout 35%.
So 37,000, yeah, remainingturned in.

(43:15):
Yeah, turned in ballots.
This was at the end of.
It was 13,000 people voted inthe primary 13,000 out of
110,000.
So when you think of likeeducation, I feel like we're
yelling into a void.
Yeah, nobody, nobody wants toget educated.
They want to wait until theyhear about this thing and see
the public hearing sign and thenthey just say the thing that's
on their mind.
So what's?

(43:37):
What's the government's role?
Is it their government's rolesupposed to just listen to those
?
That small neighborhood thatcomes out and is not paying
attention to anything?
Or are they supposed to stepback and not be reactive but
proactive and say you might not,you might not like this, but
this is what we think, based offof everybody who does this on a
daily, daily basis.
This is the direction that wewant to go, because I think of
the bike lanes.

(43:58):
How does a local governmenteven craft a city?
Because we end up just gettingwhatever is left over, right?

Speaker 2 (44:05):
I feel like that's how it isn't a cool part of a
downtown, kind of like thefunkiness of it too like well,
photoshop shop.
Someone's living right above itlike Like that's awesome to me,
I mean.
And sometimes when I talk topeople, I talk to everyone who
comes into the bakery.
If I'm there, right, andsometimes people say, oh, I just

(44:26):
got back from vacation.
I'm like where'd you go?
And it's always a place wherewe're kind of talking smack
about Right.
It's like always like a San.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
Francisco, we're in New York or.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
San Diego or something like that.
But when you go to thosedowntown areas like San
Francisco if it were, you knowobviously some political things
need to change in San Franciscoand the homelessness and drugs
and things like that.
But what's cool about SanFrancisco is being a foodie like
me.
I could walk anywhere in thatcity and find a good restaurant

(44:59):
and it's a little funky, it hasa weird layout, things like that
, and that's what's cool aboutcrave.
Yeah, and that's what's coolabout uh Bonru is, you know it's
underneath all these apartmentsand I'm sure you know those
apartments.
I I came here right when jewelopened, so to me I was sure you
know those apartments.
I came here right when Jewelopened, so to me I was like, wow
, this is really cool, all theseapartments.

(45:19):
And I lived in Jewel for twoyears, while you know, I owned
Farmstead for the first twoyears.
So to me that was kind of acool little spot and I thought
that was a really nice step inthe right direction for downtown
, same with City View.
A really nice step in the rightdirection for downtown, same
with uh city view.
But I, I've heard now thatthat's that's a fight with

(45:40):
building an apartment complexlike that.

Speaker 4 (45:42):
Yeah, you have no idea the fight that you think
about, we would not.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
Even we wouldn't have I mean, maybe you would have
figured it out somewhere else,right, but we would not have
what we have sitting on thistable if you hadn't moved here
for one which we have a lot ofpeople that move here, and
that's one of the things thatpeople always bring up ah, too
many people moving here.
Well, we had a uh, the bestrestaurant tour we ever could
have imagined that moved here.

(46:06):
Then jewel plaza was built,with a perfect spot for a
farmstead and for two or threedifferent types of farmsteads
right like yeah and it's.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
It's a law office, a mortgage company and a title
company and a title company.
And then you have a restaurantand and my thought was like why
didn't other restaurants?
Why have is it?

Speaker 2 (46:27):
is it?
That was kind of weird.
It's still weird to me becauseeven even city view.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
There's still vacant commercial space.
High, high, four, three, fivehas has done a pretty good job.
I think they've stayed busy.
Every time I drive by it's busy.
It's its own little uniqueniche.
But I just can't.
It's surprising to me that thesuccess that you've had isn't
duplicated.
Why haven't other businessesdone it in those other spaces?

(46:51):
But anyway, keep.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
And then also if we hadn't built a jewel Plaza, if
we hadn't built city view,farmstead would never have been
able to be created in downtownSt George, like that.
Because if you think about theexisting infrastructure, where
could Chris have gone to putsuch a cool?
I mean, there's a few placesthat you could rebuild, of
course, and whatever.

(47:12):
But I just think, I just thinkabout that.
I'm like if chris hadn't, ifchris wouldn't have 100
employees, he wouldn't have fourlocations, he wouldn't have the
warehouse in leeds, if therewasn't a good opportunity for
him to be able to come in here,live very, very strapped in an
apartment yeah, above his bakery, that where he could, doesn't

(47:34):
have to travel to every day,it's just walking downstairs.
Like, because people complainabout the jewel plazas, they
complain about all these thingsin downtown that really make the
downtown a downtown like I love.
Over the last five years, morepeople walking downtown there
are.
There are so many things wehave to still improve about
downtown, but there's, I thinkit's getting better and better

(48:02):
and better, and yet there's somany people in the community
that for some reason, morehousing downtown or more
apartments, more things thatwill get people downtown or is
somehow a bad thing, and I justdon't, I just don't understand
that.

Speaker 4 (48:11):
I think it's a suburban mentality that a lot of
us grew up with.
I did.
I grew up on an acre in Sandy,utah, out in the suburbs, and we
lived on these sprawling acresour entire street.
And you get that suburbanmentality and then you try to
overlay that onto a downtown andbecause for so many years
downtown St George wasn'tgrowing, it became a suburban

(48:34):
space and so there are stillpeople who feel like this should
just be single family homesdowntown and there really is a
push for that.
I wish that I had been preparedfor this and brought actual
conversations that were had whenJoel Plaza was trying to build.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
I don't do a good job preparing my guests.
I'm just telling you that itwould be.

Speaker 4 (48:52):
It would be so enlightening for you to hear
some of the I mean justabsolutely extreme.

Speaker 3 (48:59):
Like this will ruin downtown.

Speaker 4 (49:01):
It will be, you know, brothels and crime and drugs
and it will be a completedisaster and everybody will have
to move out of downtown.
Downtown's dead because JoePlaza is coming in.
I am not exaggerating.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
You know what's crazy .

Speaker 1 (49:16):
It's the same thing for town square.
There was like a huge uproarabout town square putting in the
waste.
What a waste of money ofputting in a uh uh a park in the
middle of town you know what'scrazy, though.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
That's why we moved here like so many people love it
, being from las vegas it is sosuburban it is, and I hated it.
I hated the living situation inLas Vegas.
I there was never.
I couldn't walk to work, Icouldn't bike to work without
the fear of literally beingkilled, because there is just
it's four way traffic and it's65 miles an hour, you don't know

(49:51):
who's driving drunk around andall that kind of stuff, you know
.
So we had to literally drive toa trail to go for a walk.
Yeah, like, think of that.
Like that's just to me thatjust sounds crazy.
Right, but we looked at cityview first.
We looked at city view with ourMagusa tacos concept.
We looked at city view first asit was being built and city

(50:14):
view didn't have a hood.
And I said, well, why are you,why do you?
You can't have a restauranthere, you need a hood.
And they were like, oh well,we've never done this before.
We kind of made it as thoughthey literally had to make a
hood, but they wanted us to topay for it the early, like you
know, uh tenant improvement orwhatever it is, and I'm like
well, I'm going up four storiesand I'm going in people's

(50:37):
apartments and they're like,okay, let, let us get back to
you and think about that.
And now there's a restaurantthere.
Uh, you know, two years after welooked, at it yeah right and
luckily the the uh owners ofjewel were like we need food and
we'll do anything to get youguys in here with, like, your
track record and initially thatwas supposed to be in magusa

(50:58):
tacos.
Then danielle knows that, yeah,that was supposed to be in
magusa tacos and they actuallymessed up on the the build out
with the hood.
They originally the owners ofthat gave us um an apartment
hood, so they gave us anapartment for a microwave, like
for a microwave.

Speaker 4 (51:15):
they gave us an apartment hood, so they gave us
an apartment for a microwave,like for a microwave.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
They gave us an apartment hood and I'm like this
is not going to work.
This isn't going to work.
And they said, okay, we'll doanything to make it right.
How should we do it?
So we got the engineer in andwe, we made it work.
Yeah, and that and, and theysaid and they said you can't do
two concepts, because it wassupposed to be a Magusta tacos
and Farmstead donuts.
Okay, so we were supposed tochange.

(51:39):
It was supposed to be twoconcepts in one building,
basically one unit.
And they said, but we couldonly do one concept with this
new way.
That we did it and our chef,chris Herron at the time, was
like you know what?
Let's just do an awesome bakery.
And I was like, dude, what?
Let's just do an awesome bakery.
And I was like dude, I am athousand percent in and that's

(52:02):
how Farmstead came about.
But it would have neverhappened that way if we didn't
look at the traffic and say StGeorge Boulevard is too much
traffic for us because peopleare flying by.
We want somewhere where peopleare going a little bit less
miles per hour and see oursignage and see people in and
see the energy of people goingin there and people could park
on the street.

(52:23):
And we knew that people, if wehad a product that was great,
people would park and just walk.
Yeah Right, and that's kind oflike what we created.
Yeah Right, and that's kind oflike what we created.
But now I don't think you couldeven build a jewel because you
have to pay.
How much is it for a parkingspot?

Speaker 4 (52:41):
Well, if you build a parking garage right now, the
parking spaces are averagingabout $40,000 per parking space
in a parking garage.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
Yeah, Wait $40,000 per parking space to build a
parking garage so so I know thatsounds like a fake number so so
for the space just for onespace to do the engineer, like
when you, when you build it up,like when you boil it all down
of all the costs that go into it.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
So how much is a?
Do you know this number off ina just a regular parking garage.

Speaker 4 (53:14):
The parking garage that the city is building right
now is costing $10 million.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
That to me is crazy, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
It's insane and ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
Do you know what you could create for $10 million for
a building, Not to say is itwarranted?
I'm just asking.

Speaker 4 (53:32):
To me it's insanity.
I mean we do need places, right, like we need places downtown,
but the imbalance to me is soinsane because if we were
putting that same kind of energy, I mean I can.
I don't want to get on mysoapbox about transportation,
Cause that's a whole notherconversation, but you start
looking at the amount of moneythat we put into roads.
We are supplementing everysingle person who drives a car.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:54):
When people are like why are you putting in bike
lanes?
Those people don't pay taxes.
It's like well, roads are onlycovered by less than 50% gas tax
.
If you drive a car, you'rebeing supplemented by the rest
of the community that doesn'tdrive cars with general taxes.
Roads are our most expensivething that we do, and the
concept of wanting to widen themis not a conservative ideology.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
This is another thing , though, because I do want to
talk about transportation justbriefly, but before I go to
transportation I'll come back tothe government shaping the
community for the future, right?
So without the fight to haveJuul, we might not have had
Farmstead in its current form.
Right, we might have had aDonuts and a Magusta Tacos right

(54:38):
, we might have had that right.
So there's some of this thathappens where we're all a part
of a trend.
Nobody's really in full control.
Not one person or a group ofpeople can really control the
direction we're headed.
But when we have thiscollaboration of effort towards
moving this general feel andvibe, I think st george done a
really good job with that islike making parks, open space,

(55:00):
community type spaces, hasalways been really important,
but it also has always been afight and it's going to continue
to be a fight.
So organizing it's funnythinking of, like, the northern
corridor, this, this argument oflike okay, we don't want to
have a road that goes, you know,over and spills into this open
space because of the tortoises,maybe, because it's, you know,

(55:21):
the native American land that'sthere.
This, this, uh, this battlebetween, uh, environmentalism
and also this urbanism, right,this, this crash between the two
.
And also we, we, we want theopen spaces, we want the parks,
we want the trails, we wantpeople have other routes so
we're not congesting trafficinto one space.

(55:41):
So like we're all yelling ateach other about these
conflicting opinions, where dowe agree?
I think in general we agree thatwe want these community spaces,
we want these trails, this youknow 13,000 people that vote in
the primaries.
You know they're going to maketheir voice heard.
But the city still has to kindof shape and the people that

(56:01):
work in the city that or have adeep knowledge and understanding
of that same vision which yougo through.
The general plan and the visionof saint george is very clear.
It's very obvious like this isthe direction we're head.
But then then, as stuff getsput on the agenda to approve,
now it chips away at thesegeneral plan things or we fight
against what this vision is.

(56:21):
So I feel like this is myopinion the general plan is a
good framework, but then thegovernment has to sit back and
let the community then adoptwhat how they feel that vision
is, and we battle over that allthe time.

Speaker 4 (56:35):
I agree with that, robert, and I think you have to
remember at a city there'sadministrative and there's
legislative right and thenthere's executive.
So the administrative is thepeople that you're hiring, that
are the experts that arestudying these things out and
hopefully learning, like, thelatest and greatest knowledge on
how to best build a park thatwill last for 30 or 40 years,
those kinds of things.
So you get your general planand your vision built, mostly by

(56:58):
them.
Then you elect people into thelegislative space and if they
are always countering that, thisis where it gets very tricky,
right, like, who are the peoplewho are elected?
Who are we listening to?
I tell people all the time andthis is sad, but the truth is
like somebody gets real loud,gets real angry, gets real

(57:18):
aggressive, and they'rerepetitive.
They almost always get heard bythe legislative and sometimes
that means that things changethat shouldn't have changed and
you're like why did you do that?
Why did you vote against a bikelane on 700?
Well, I heard from all theseresidents.
Well, tell me exactly how manyresidents you heard from.
Well, it was five, but theyemailed me every day.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
You see what I'm saying, and so you need like an
order of magnitude on the flipside in favor of something to
negate something negative thatwas said, right.
You need, like you know, eightto 10 more people for every one
person that doesn't like it.
You need, you know, almost 10times that amount just to feel
comfortable with making adecision that feels unpopular.
Right, Because that loudness ismakes it feel like it's way

(58:02):
bigger than it really is.

Speaker 4 (58:03):
Yeah, and I also think, as humans, like if I'm
mad about something, I'm gonna,I'm gonna call, I'm gonna tell
you.
If I'm like, no, I support this, then I just sit back and think
, well, good they're, they'reheaded in a direction that I
support, I don't email and say Ineed you to know that I support
you and I want you to keepdoing this.
So, as a council, what we hearis the people who want to burn

(58:24):
it down, Right.
We don't hear the people whoare like, actually we're all out
here supporting it, we're allout here building businesses and
actually please keep going thedirection you are building
businesses and actually pleasekeep going the direction you are
but, like, take a littlefeedback from us too, and you
have, you're a part of thedowntown business alliance.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
You guys created a downtown business alliance, is
that right?
Yeah, so like these coalitions,so tell me about.
Uh, is this kind of like a, anability for you to to voice?

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Yeah, I think I think , with the downtown business
alliance, our, our goal is tojust focus on almost like that,
Main Street USA.
So like when you go to MainStreet in St George, it is
primarily, like you said withJuul, it's title companies, real
estate, you know things Lawfirms accountants, Law firms,

(59:11):
law accountants.
And when I look at a space, whenI'm looking at a space and
doing my work, before I go intoa commercial space for a
restaurant, I look at number one, traffic flow, traffic count
and how many appointment-basedbusinesses there are.
For me that's really important,like hair salons, and stuff

(59:31):
like that are super important.
Barbershops, things like that,um, and now real estate offices
they don't necessarily have thatMaybe, maybe title, things like
that.
People are coming and going, um, but in main street right now
that doesn't happen.
So, uh, the business Alliance,downtown business Alliance, is
with the St George chamber andour our goal.

(59:54):
What we're trying to focus on umis, right now, what.
What's important to us is howpeople, how the flow of traffic,
specifically foot traffic, can,can go through main street and
right now, I think it's, I thinkit's kind of archaic with with
just a traffic traffic stop.

(01:00:15):
I think that traffic stop isdangerous to me.
It just seems really dangerousbecause that it almost gets
overflowed at times, becausethat correct me if I'm wrong is
that the most populated and usedstop crosswalk, yes, downtown
or in the only other one thatcompares is 100 south and 1000

(01:00:37):
East because of the high trafficfrom the university.

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
The university.
Yeah, there's so many peoplethat are walking right there too
, which?
Is yeah, the other thing thatwe could use as a use case.
Those two are the perfect forwhat I think you're going to tee
up.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Yeah, so our main goal is to actually get a
pedestrian scramble.
And when you mention pedestrianscramble and you show a picture
of it, people automaticallythink it needs to be the biggest
city in the world in order todo a pedestrian scramble, and it
doesn't.

(01:01:10):
Could just be a very thoughtfulway to treat our economy, the
people who come and visit righta little bit better, because the
flow is going to be better.
It's much better for cars.
It's much better for cars.
Everyone stops for 20 secondswhile people go whichever which

(01:01:30):
way.
So the pedestrian scramble is.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
It's like an X right, it's like an x.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Right, it's like an x yeah, so so you could go to uh
the furniture store from from uhthe advenir, you know, and then
when you're at the, at the bank, or going up that way from the
parking structure, right, yeah,you could go up there you go
cross instead of go this way,and then go this way Because the
problem is right now.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
From I'll see if I can get a picture of it to put
in overlay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
I've been there so many times because I just live
down the street, so we're alwayswalking down there, we always
go for a walk after dinner.
So when we're there and you'recrossing, what is that west to
east?
That person going on St GeorgeBoulevard actually has that
yield Right.
So it's a flashing yellow, sothey're.
They're not necessarily lookingat the pedestrians, they're

(01:02:20):
just looking for the cars andthat's.
That's a tough turn too.
So like they go, and I've seenso many times where it's like
hurry up, hurry up, hurry up,and the the pedestrian like
literally has to sprint, yeah,and then they almost get hit you
know, and I just think it's it.
You know, as a business ownerand a restaurant owner, I look

(01:02:40):
for energy.
Energy is like the number onefactor that I have to put in my
and energy.
You can't pay for energy.
You either have it or you don't.
Yeah, it's somewhat created,you know.
So, like that energy going andbeing used at a pedestrian
scramble is that flow?
Is is just better energy.

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
Yeah, in my opinion, well, I think it goes back to
and I know you, you gotsomewhere, you got to be mccray
it goes back to creating what isthe type of environment that we
want to create, what's the thelocal government's role, but
then what is also the the peoplethat live in that neighborhood,
and I think there needs to bemuch more collaboration.
So I like the Downtown Alliance, the idea that that is a
collective voice for thesethings that will help drive

(01:03:21):
pedestrian walking traffic tomake a downtown that prioritizes
the individual pedestrian in acommunity space.
Take it out of just the park,put it into the commercial,
allow there to be more livelyspace for everybody in the
community, not just the tourists.
Put it into the commercial,allow there to be more lively
space for everybody in thecommunity, not just the tourists
, right, this is everybody thatcan live and work and and play
all in that same space.

(01:03:41):
And it could be a model to wherewe could do it in spaces that
haven't been developed, you know, in different cities, cause St
George has always been well,what is St George doing and what
have they done wrong?
And then let's take that to ourcity, right, whether it's
Washington or it's, you know,tokerville, right, who has this,
this massive growthopportunities like what can they
create out there?
And they're looking to StGeorge to to keep that

(01:04:01):
innovative thinking alive.
But do you have anything?
Last last thing you want to say, mccray, before you jump off?
I want to talk abouttransportation, for like five
more minutes if we can.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
No, I mean honestly, this whole conversation is part
of the drive that I have for theplatform that I do what I do,
because it is all abouteducation and the more that we
can just keep having theseconversations, it goes back to
like the Geobon last year.
I wanted to do a specific videoon the Geobon because I felt

(01:04:30):
like most people just had noidea even what it was.
It was just that was one ofthose big narrative discussions
that people just took and kindof ran with.
However, and I think that themore that we have these kinds of
conversations and we buildthese local platforms so that
people can actually get educated, I think and that's why I love
the four, three, five podcasts,because just local issues and we

(01:04:53):
just need more people havingthe conversation.
Having the conversation, havingthe conversation and more
people learning.
Yeah, because it really is justthese sound bites, it's this or
these, not these words thattrigger people and they don't go
anywhere.
They, and it's always after thefact.
It's always oh, I just heardabout this.
It's been in the works forever,but I, I had this word put into

(01:05:15):
my head and now it, you know, Igotta go, I gotta go show up,
and the people that show up arethe ones that are not always the
most thoughtful.

Speaker 4 (01:05:28):
Thoughtful, yeah, it's all and I think beyond that
, I mean in defense of peoplealso not knowing like sometimes
the government hasn't done agood job sharing the actual
information, so that people canbe educated, and so McCray a lot
of times shares things that thecity could have shared or the
county could have shared, but wejust haven't.

(01:05:48):
A really good example just thisweek Celeste Malloy got a bunch
of land.
The city has not purchased it,the county has not purchased it.
The way it was written by themedia isn't exactly correct.
So she has this land in thisbill that is now available for

(01:06:08):
the city and the county to takeover.
That's federal land.
Well, I hadn't heard about itand I'm on the city council and
I read this article.
So I send it to our citymanager and to the mayor and the
mayor's mayor says I don't evenknow what this is.
So we start investigating andwe realize what it is is
actually small parcels of landthat we've been asking for for
years.
Most of them sit over the topof wells that we need to protect

(01:06:31):
the water.
So there's a bunch of them thatare gunlock well, number one,
gunlock well, number two.
There's like 15 of those.
There's some land.
It would be the land for theWestern Corridor if that is ever
built.
It's very specific parcels thatare just kind of spotted all
over.
But you write an articlebecause that's how it was
written in the bill 11,000 acresin Washington County, that's

(01:06:52):
going to the city of St George,and that just makes people
furious.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:06:57):
Right, and the city's just buying this land and we're
just going to sprawl into thedesert and we're going to, you
know waste all the water, wasteall the water and go, and so
even I had to learn about itbecause the communication wasn't
there.
So now we're having, instead ofbeing proactive, we're having to
be reactive and say, oh, hey,hey, hey, this is what.
This is where it would havebeen so much better if we had
been able to proactively say,hey, this is coming next week,

(01:07:24):
just know.
In fact, here's a map that willshow you the exact parcels that
could be purchased by the cityto protect these water resources
.
That would have been the betterway to go, and I feel like
things like the 435 podcast andthings like what mccray is doing
, just sharing, like here'swhat's coming, it really helps
yeah to be proactive in that wayyeah, the, the uh, landon and
mccray, thanks for being here.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
Buddy, we'll see you guys um, it's interesting
because there's a lot happeningthere and I want to have celeste
on to talk more about, uh, whatthey're doing with the land and
urban development, releasingcounty federal state land for
development.
Right, I know they're trying torelease a lot of the
restrictions in the red tape andbeing able to develop land, but

(01:08:06):
we still have to be thoughtfuljust because the city gets it,
we still have to be thoughtfulwith how we develop it,
especially with the waterconcerns.
I'm going to go back totransportation really quickly
because I think we're thinkingabout transportation like we
thought about transportation 50years ago.

Speaker 4 (01:08:20):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
When, 10 years from now, self-driving cars are going
to be the predominant way thatpeople get around, and I think
of all the people that can'tdrive.
But my son, he learned aboutself-driving cars.
He's nine years old and it blewhis mind.
He's like, why would I everhave to drive a car?
And I think as a kid I was likeso excited to drive a car

(01:08:41):
because it's self-driving carwasn't an option.
And you think of the freedomthat you get out of a
self-driving car, right, and Iwas excited about the go-ped
where it was.
Instead of having a pedal, Icould get on a little.
You know, two stroke engine anddrive down.
Right, I'm excited about that.
He's like, wait, so I couldjust get in the car and I could
just read a book or play videogame.
I was like, yeah, he's likethat's awesome.

(01:09:01):
I was like, yeah, and then, andthen the car could take you
where you want to go, and thenthe car would just go back to
the house.
It wouldn't even wouldn't evenneed to park.
Horses were thinking about carswhen this is like the future,
like we're right here.
It's not like this is 20-30years down the road and so we're
going to make infrastructureplans with this idea that for

(01:09:23):
sure is going to just overwhelmand change transportation at a
massive degree to whereindividual cars can manage
thousands of people withrelative ease.
And I think about-.

Speaker 4 (01:09:35):
Driving right next to each other.
Driving right next to eachother.

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):
In a tiny space.
We don't need large cars, wedon't need the safety is going
to go up.
Musk said that they did a study.
This was with all the differentself-driving cars and it was
half the number of accidentsoccur in self-driving cars
versus, uh, human-powered carslike even today, with what, what
, what technology they have it'slike one in ten thousand or

(01:10:00):
something like that.
It was like one in ten thousandaccidents were happening on on
full self-driving versus likethe 2.5 that happen in non-self
driving cars.
Right, and so thinking aboutsafety is going to go up, but
the fear of the change is whatdrives from the generations that
were looking at a window backbefore, and so I think of those
local governments as saying, hey, we need to accept that this is

(01:10:21):
a reality.
This isn't like.
Well, what if this happens?
Because I don't think there'sany stopping it.
The biggest tech companies inthe world are doing it, all the
auto manufacturers are all onboard with doing that, and it's
going to change the way citiesmove and the way we flow
throughout the county, and so Iwonder about a young city like
this that typically doesn't lookat this advanced technology as

(01:10:42):
being something that, oh, we'regoing to be behind Salt Lake,
and we're going to be behind,but we don't really need to be.
We choose to be if we want to.
But can we look at thesedifferent technological advances
that are happening because wehave?
The world is at our fingertipsand the ability to know that?
Can we rethink that?
Is there even a conversationabout how self-driving is going
to change city development inany way?

Speaker 4 (01:11:02):
No, that conversation really isn't happening like at
the city level right now.
The thing that I noticed,though, robert, like speaking to
what you're talking about, isthe only way people aren't
afraid, the only way that wethat I've learned that we're
able to get them to change theirminds or to think into the
future, is storytelling.
It really is.
It's emotion and it'sstorytelling.

(01:11:23):
It's like asking them, you know, did you know that 45,000
people die every year in theUnited States in car accidents?
Like this is a huge number ofpeople.
Like we've just grown to acceptthat.
Did you know that we coulddecrease that by you know and
here's what that looks like foryou and bringing it down to the
human level every time, when itcomes to transportation

(01:11:44):
especially, did you know youcould get to work faster and
safer?
Did you know that the airquality won't be so negatively
affected?
Did you know that your kidscould walk to school and you're
not going to be worried thatthey're going to get run over at
that crosswalk, you know,because the stopping ability
will be so much better?
Like, bringing it back down tohuman scale and telling stories
about how that will affect ourlives helps people, and I don't

(01:12:08):
think that the conversation willat least be an open
conversation in government untilpeople start to feel a little
more comfortable with it rightBecause there's a risk factor.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
Right, there's this risk percentage involved to
where?
Well, what if we're wrong?
And I don't want to be the onewho made this decision when we
were wrong?
Versus being iterative right,having an entrepreneurial mind
and being like, okay, hey, let'stry this thing out and see how
it goes.
Let's just try this out and seehow it goes and but it's all or
nothing.
It's like.
It's almost like the mindset ofthe stick shift versus

(01:12:37):
automatic.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Yeah Right, it was like everyone was kind of
fearful from going from a stickshift to automatic.
Yeah, you know.
And now, yeah, you're.
You're right, I think we'rewith the tech, the robo taxis
and things like that.
I think it's.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
We're less than 10, less than 10 years, yeah
absolutely, you know, and andthe generation of kids that will
get their license right in that10 years they're 100 on board
with being like, oh, I don'thave to, I don't have to buy a
car, I could have a.
Uh, I could get on uber andit's like significantly cheaper
to where we could call aself-driving uber it's almost
just like a membership it's likeit'd be a membership right and

(01:13:13):
uber is built on that.
It was built off a columbiauniversity study saying how
could we replace every taxi cabif?
If we were to do this, if wewere to replace every cab in new
york city with a self-drivingcar, what would that look like?
And they got down to 500 cabswith less than five minute wait
for everybody who wanted a cab.
If it was just fullself-driving, they'd cut

(01:13:34):
thousands of thousands.
I think there was like 10,000cabs in New York when they did
the study and they got it downto 500 cabs throughout New York
city.
They could have a five minutewait because of the way they
were called up Right and the waythat they could service certain
areas within the city, becausewhen it's all systematic, you
can see patterns, human patternsand this was a big thing when I

(01:13:55):
lived in Las Vegas Uber comingout because the taxi cab unions
were huge, and so when that cameout and the taxi medallions
like all of a sudden lost alltheir value.

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
Yeah, and then you know, I mean, it just came down
to when.
When that was implemented, itwas just easier for everyone.
Taxis are still there, yeah,you know, and and, but when
we're, when we're building moreof these roads and and things
like that to accommodate moreand more cars, one thing that we

(01:14:27):
have to take into account isall that concrete too, that
concrete everything around that.
I'm from Las Vegas, like I said, yeah, everything in that
downtown area where there's moreconcrete, it's gotten a lot
hotter, it's hotter.

Speaker 4 (01:14:39):
It's seven degrees hotter.
Is it seven degrees?
Yes, the Arboretum Index forVegas is seven degrees hotter.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
And one of the reasons I love downtown is
because there's so many awesomebeautiful mature trees and
landscapes and all that kind ofstuff Like that's what I
absolutely love, and my wife islike crazy about trees and her
garden and all that kind ofstuff.
You know, as, as Danielle's momprobably knows, danielle's mom
comes over every once in a whileand helps Stacy with the garden

(01:15:07):
.
But you know, it's one of thosethings I still can't wrap my
head around $10 million for theparking garage.
But then you go to the parkinggarage and you're like man,
that's a lot of concrete andthat's going to kind of pop up
that temp a little bit aroundthere.

Speaker 4 (01:15:24):
Not only the temp, chris, but like, actually
anything that's impermeable in adesert creates issues, because
deserts actually need for anywater that comes to be able to
like recharge the aquifers andto like keep the moisture in the
soil.
So that's something that saintgeorge and the water district is
already seeing, especially indrought conditions, the more

(01:15:45):
non-permeable surfaces that youhave, the bigger challenge that
you have when you do get thoserains, because the rain doesn't
seep into the ground like it'ssupposed to.

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
It causes a lot of problems, which is probably why
Las Vegas floods so bad.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
Yes, yeah, it's really interesting to see how
all these factors have thesesecond and third, fourth,
unintended consequences.
When you look at it.
And so, making decisions basedoff this one neighbor feeling
this one particular way, I feellike it's the job of the
government to take a step backand my ultimate point goes to

(01:16:18):
they have a fear of well, Idon't want to lose in the next
election.
I want to stay doing my job,and this is where Hurricane
tried to pass a referendum voteto have term limits on their
city council members and themayor, and the mayor, who's a
beloved layer mayor right now,right, nanette?

(01:16:38):
Everybody loves Nanette andHurricane.
They're like why would you dothis?
She's like because I don'tthink that you know politicians
should stay here forever, rightvery smart that way, yeah, but
they didn't even get it on theballot they didn't
get enough signatures to get iton the ballot right, and part of
it, she said, was timing waswas off.
She didn't get a big enoughcoalition to to get the because

(01:16:59):
they.
She didn't want it just to belegislation, because if it was
just legislation it can bechanged right, and so she wanted
it as a referendum.
So then it was stuck there,which is is really smart, but I
I think about that for the cityof saint george's, would this,
would would the city councilmayors, uh, city council members
, be more apt to take somethingthat's seemingly a little bit

(01:17:21):
more risky?
yes if, if they didn't have toworry.
He's like well, I, I got.
I got two or three cycles andI'm not going to worry about an
election cycle, I'm going tojust do what I think is right
and then it offers.
Is that always a good thing,though?

Speaker 4 (01:17:34):
Well.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
I mean to me.

Speaker 4 (01:17:35):
Well, at the end of the day, you're right.
Like you should always vote.
Like you're never going to bereelected.
Like that's just across theboard.
Like you should but.

Speaker 1 (01:17:43):
But they don't vote that way but we're talking about
humans.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:17:45):
And people's egos.
I mean when you were so, yes, Imean.
But back to the car thing, youknow, I think it'll be really
interesting as autonomous cars,like these new options, come
that are safer and better forour society overall.
What we're going to see, whatwe always see, is the collective
good versus the individual goodand really it's almost always

(01:18:07):
about ego.
I brought this book because Ilove this book so much I even
brought it to city council lastnight.
It's the history of WashingtonCounty from isolation to
desolation.
This is one of the coolest books.
It was written by Doug Alder,who was the university president
, and Carl Brooks, who was themayor of St George for a while.

Speaker 1 (01:18:22):
Oh cool.

Speaker 4 (01:18:23):
It's such a good book , but it literally tells the
story of the collaboration tobuild this space in the desert.
I mean, we built a city in adesert and we've always had to
collaborate.
Water has always been an issue,the heat has always been an
issue, it always will be, and sohow do we collaborate when it
comes to things liketransportation, autonomous cars
Well, but I drive a G wagon andthat makes me look better than

(01:18:45):
my neighbor, like all of asudden, if we're all in the same
autonomous cars like, how's myego going to be fed there's?

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
no flex.

Speaker 1 (01:18:52):
You will see that kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (01:18:53):
I promise you, because we are human and we do,
we have these.
You know, we have thisattachment.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):
That's why there's Uber Black you can do Uber Black
.
Like those people have.

Speaker 2 (01:19:02):
You're just going to post that on Instagram.
Yeah, exactly, guys.

Speaker 4 (01:19:04):
By the way, I called up an Uber Black, that's right,
and you just put a picture ofyou in front of your.

Speaker 1 (01:19:09):
Yeah, autonomous G-Wagon.

Speaker 4 (01:19:11):
Your more fancy Uber.

Speaker 1 (01:19:12):
I don't even need to drive my G-Wagon it drives
itself.

Speaker 4 (01:19:14):
That's right.
Well, I just bring that upbecause I do think it all goes
back to why did we build thecity in the first place?
The only way can be a good city, a good community, is
collaboration.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
Yeah, yeah and I think one of the reasons I chose
to live downtown.
I love living downtown and Ilove St George.
People in St George areabsolutely incredible.
I just absolutely love livinghere, but we can walk to things.
There's a little bit offunkiness with it.
Like, right next to us is a, anapartment complex that you know

(01:19:49):
, you just kind of havedifferent people in different
walks of life.
And me raising uh, two boys,eight and six, right now, I want
them to see that, becausethey're going to see it
regardless.
Right, we can't necessarilyprotect them.
I think my goal as a parent isto explain things to them that
are somewhat different, thatthey haven't experienced yet.

(01:20:10):
Right, but when we walk to thepark, when we walk to town
square park, you know there's somany different plants and
people that we come across thatwe all say hi to and we always
get in these conversations.
But that builds so such astrong community, because then
we see those people again.
When we walk on Sunday mornings, we, we see all the people

(01:20:33):
walking to church and we, I meanit's like it's, it's amazing,
it's fantastic.
You're waving hi to everyone.
Like my hand gets tired, youknow.
And those are the things that Ithink make this community so
special.
Yeah, it's small enough to, butit's also in that like happy

(01:20:55):
spot to where it still has thatsmall town feel.
You know, I was watching aYouTube video last night and it
was a guy who was visiting StGeorge and he's like this place
is kind of stuck in the times alittle bit and I was like, you
know, I kind of got like mad.
Yeah, but he was going onTabernacle and he was going on

(01:21:15):
Main Street and by the end ofthe video he kind of changed his
tune a little bit.
He's like, wow, look at this,look at this restaurant, look,
he went into Judd's and all thiskind of stuff.
He went into FS coffee and he'slike, wow, a coffee shop in St
George.
And it's like that mentality is, you know, we don't hear that
much, yeah, or at least at leastI don't.

(01:21:36):
But you know, it's interestingto see that perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:21:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:41):
You know and, and I think that's just kind of like
what makes my neighborhoodamazing.
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 4 (01:21:47):
it it's diverse and there has been a change of
perception, I even think by themajority lds culture of.
I mean, I sat in a meeting sixyears ago where a man said if
you allow a bar downtown, therewill just be drunk people
stumbling all over the streets.
Right, and he really did.
That was a very legitimate fearthat he had and he was actually
one of the same people who alsoreally protested jewel Plaza

(01:22:11):
and he's a very sweet man andhis intentions were good, like
he just wanted to keep a goodcommunity.
And I've heard him say sinceabout jewel I was totally wrong,
you know, he was like it'lljust be a disaster for
everything and he said Iactually love it.
And I haven't had aconversation with him about the
bars, but I would imagine thathe would say the same thing like

(01:22:32):
oh okay, I realized that.
You know these are well-managed.
Utah has great liquor laws thatkeep these things you know,
under control and this is just,like you know, kind of part of
the ecosystem of a downtown andit's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
Yeah, well, it's easy to slippery slope it right when
you're like, well, you let thisin, and then it opens the door
for this thing, and then itopens the door, which we do,
which is which is a fairargument, and at the same time,
it's there's nuance to it.
There has to be someprogression, mixed with some
control and staying conservative, right.
And so, okay, what does thebars look like?
Is it going to look like?

(01:23:05):
You know, I went to Cal State,fullerton, and then downtown
Fullerton is massively known asjust the party street, right?

Speaker 4 (01:23:13):
So there are other people stumbling.

Speaker 1 (01:23:14):
Yeah, there is that right, but they're open until 2
am and you know, it's like theydon't open until 10 o'clock.
It's like, yeah, you thinkwe're going to go from, you know
a to Z instantly where that'snot, that's not really what the
the that's not the goal foranybody in town.
And what is the?
What is the goal?
Okay, we, we, we want toprovide a more vibrant downtown

(01:23:37):
that includes a mix of a lot ofdifferent people Like what are
these things that we can create?
And if, if the communitydoesn't want it, they'll reject
those businesses and then theywon't patronize them, they'll go
elsewhere, they'll go out ofbusiness.

Speaker 4 (01:23:49):
And we do want it to stay family friendly.
We always want people to feelsafe, you know bringing their
families downtown.
So it is.
It's a.
It's a very good balance andmix that we have to strike.
But to your point, I love that.
I mean, yeah, you let a barcome in.

Speaker 2 (01:24:07):
If, if the community doesn't want wanted, it will go
out of business, and that's good.
I mean the competition breedssuccess, right, I mean the
competition having, let's say,another bar open in downtown, I
mean I think that just raisesthe standard for the rest of the
bars that are already operating.
Yeah, same same thing goes forrestaurants or any other
business.
You have to get better.
Yeah, and that's the beauty ofbusiness is, if you don't get

(01:24:29):
better, you're going to getswallowed up, right?
So, like you're, you're alwaysstriving to get better, and I
think that's what our mindsetshould be in downtown or in St
George in general, is justalways thinking of ways that we
could improve.
Yeah, it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:43):
Rather than progress, I think evolve is the best way
to describe it, because itdoesn't always have to look like
this never-ending.

Speaker 4 (01:24:53):
Progress is definitely a trigger word.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
It's trigger of saying, okay, we're changing
from the past.
It's like, no, maybe we justneed to adapt to this different
environment, right?
And that's where housing comesinto play.
And I balance this.
How does the government forceaffordable housing?
Truthfully, I've looked at allthe different ways.
They can't force it.
They can't force it.
But they can let the shacklesoff of developers and allow them

(01:25:18):
to explore that diversity andthat ability to say, okay, can I
do more with this small space,the space on River Road and Fort
Pierce Drive.
Right, it was nine acres, it waslow density.
It went from 10,000 square footlots to.
They wanted to have a mix ofsingle family and multifamily
homes on this space, right, andyou're getting public comments

(01:25:39):
saying it's going to destroythat area and it's already too
busy and all these problems.
When they wanted to put 30units on this three acres, it's
just over three houses per acre,which is still low density.
Right, it's low density still,but because the zone was one
house per 10,000 square feet,it's a funky lot.

(01:26:00):
Because there's a hill in themiddle of it.
Right, it's.
Nine acres is a lot, but notall of it can be developed, for
you know, it would go from oh,maybe two houses could have been
built there to what is 30 looklike, and maybe they don't even
use the whole thing and make 30full units.
But how?
How do we just let the buildersand developers come up with
something unique to allow thatprice point to come down?

(01:26:22):
And they've really done a goodjob.
This is the other misconception,too is that the developers just
want to keep building biggerand bigger, where the vast
majority of new constructionthroughout the county has been
under $500,000.
The vast majority of it.
Right, we've built moreaffordable homes in the last
three years than we've everbuilt in Southern Utah.
Multifamily has come downbecause of factors outside of

(01:26:43):
our control.
Right, we can't.
It's financially expensive tobuild, because of parking,
because of all these otherrestrictions.
It's expensive to buildapartments and condos, and even
long-term values.
That's not the best thing forthat resident, right?
I, 99% of the time.
If somebody wants to buy acondo, I'm like are you sure you
want to buy a condo?

(01:27:04):
I mean, it's not really like a.
If you really want to livethere and you just want that
kind of environment, okay, youcould buy a condo, but they
don't appreciate and value.
The same way they don't resellthe same way.

Speaker 2 (01:27:14):
I wish you would have told me that when I when I
bought a condo in Mesquite.

Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
I know I would have.
I would have talked you out ofthat.

Speaker 2 (01:27:20):
The HOA has gone up $200 in the past three years
because of insurance claims.
Yeah, and I that's mymother-in-law who lives there,
so we're trying to get her towith McCray.
I was like McCray, do you haveanything?
You know, like in in thosetownhomes, yeah, and he's like
man, I'm like nothing, there'snothing.

(01:27:41):
And you, we try to lookeverywhere downtown to town to
bring her here.
Yeah, there's nothing for forthat price point.

Speaker 1 (01:27:46):
And that's the problem that I think we're we're
tugging on Right and it's notalways we don't have to do the
full spectrums, it's the middleright, it's the it's the middle
margin is actually where we canmake the biggest impact is that
medium density type setup andallow single flat townhomes.
You know single level flattownhomes in, you know already

(01:28:07):
developed.
It's the redevelopment spacethat I think we can make the
biggest impact on and the onlyway we can do that is through
zoning and through the cityallowing us to say okay, this,
this is a should be.
It looks like a manufacturedhouse.
It's halfway falling down.
There's a block on 700.
That's right outside.
It's in the net.
The neighbor traditionalneighborhood zone.
It's a.
It's literally on the border ofthat and interconnected, so it

(01:28:28):
doesn't allow for multifamily.
But there's six houses therewith a bunch of empty lots in
the middle, because the lots areweirdly shaped and you can only
build houses there.
So it's either I build a 35,000, you know a 3,500 square foot
McMansion in the middle ofdowntown but I can't build two
or three smaller cottage typehomes there because of that

(01:28:50):
zoning and because of that.
Well, that would require a 40foot road to have to go to the
middle of this neighborhood andall of a sudden the asphalt
costs and all these things makeit undeveloped.
So they just put lipsticklipstick on a pig and resell the
houses that were built in theseventies that nobody really
wants to live in anyway.
It doesn't allow forredevelopment and that's where
the city can come in.

(01:29:10):
Is that redevelopment zone andwe want tighter density.
But I want somebody to own theland.
I don't want them to build abunch of condos.
We could make a big impact withjust medium density, medium to
low density housing in zonesthat are older.

Speaker 4 (01:29:27):
And this is where I feel like the development
community needs to get loud.
Now that the general plan andthe downtown plan are out, the
development community needs tostart saying okay, this is a
great framework, but it needs tobe loose.
It needs to be like the realityis to your point about all the
zones.
It like blows my mind and we'vetalked.

(01:29:47):
You talked with Stacy and Stacytold you that there's 16 zones
in Japan.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
Yeah, remember that, like over the entire country,
there's 16 zones.

Speaker 4 (01:29:54):
I mean, we have 16 residential, just residential
zones, yeah, sub zones.
Yeah, sub zones.
We have to loosen that up.

Speaker 1 (01:30:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:30:04):
Like we have to make it so that if you as an
individual want to come in tocity hall and say, like I want
to do this creative thing, aslong as it's safe housing, like
you're not going to buildsomething that's unsafe or that
would cause problems, you shouldbe able to walk out with a
building permit.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
Yeah, Well, currently on my lot.
Right, we didn't build a hugehome and we purposely have land.
We left it there because wewanted to do an ADU and we want
to buy something from Box House.
So we're saving up to buysomething from Box House, a St
George company, but I would loveto put two back there.

(01:30:41):
I'm not building 25.
I want to put two.
I want to have something for mymother in law and I want to
have something possibly for anemployee, because there's always
an employee that needs housing.
You know they're.
They're either like hey, theymy landlord told me I have to be
out in a month.
Is there something?

(01:31:01):
Yeah, you could stay here for amonth until you go, or a couple
of months before you.
You know, find something.
And I, I, every time I go thereand I'm not the smartest, right
, but I get so confused when Isee the, the different zones and
all that kind of stuff and I'mlike so, so can you just answer

(01:31:21):
me this question Can I do it?
Yeah, they're like well, no,not really.

Speaker 4 (01:31:26):
Yeah, you know, but then you got to just like take
it.
We're confused, Like even thecity is confused right.
Like they have to break it downand pull your lot up and then
and it's not just, it's not justlike you go into city hall and
you ask this person.

Speaker 1 (01:31:42):
No, it's like you got to schedule the sit down and
you have all sit there andthere's 10 people around and
they all give their opinion asto what they can and can't do.
It's like, yeah, you could dothis, but you can't do this.
And then you're like, okay, I'mgonna take a shot, I'm gonna go
to the, the planning commission, and then the planning
commission.
You do the same thing all overagain and they're like just say
to heck with it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:58):
I'm just gonna try it yeah exactly if I get caught,
you know and that's whathappened like which we have
plenty of.
There's plenty of that and Iunderstand why, and that's what
it's going to lead to is, somepeople are just going to get
frustrated and they're justgoing to be like, ah, screw it.

Speaker 1 (01:32:11):
Yeah, you know, and that's not good, we don't want
that On that block, on 700, Iprobably put 40 hours into
reading all of the differentzones and being like, okay, with
this one, can this one work?
And then you go and not beingan architect cause you don't
want to go spend a bunch ofmoney on an architecture time,
right?
Or a draftsman I'm like, okay,here's the rule.
I have, like you know, my justrudimentary tools, right?

(01:32:35):
You're like, oh, this is ameasuring tool.
I take the satellite view andI'm like, okay, if I, if I put
this here, this is about thismany feet, Can I put this house
here, in this house here.
And then you know you're 20hours in and you're like, nope,
can't do that.

Speaker 4 (01:32:46):
Well, you know, I called our city manager the
other day just and who I love.
He's great and I really believe.

Speaker 1 (01:32:51):
He won't come on the podcast by the way.

Speaker 4 (01:32:53):
Okay, I'll talk to him.

Speaker 1 (01:32:54):
Yeah, I don't think he's still going to go.

Speaker 4 (01:32:57):
I just told I talked to him about this exactly.
You know, and he agrees.
You know they have met thedemand of what the community has
said.
Like we, you guys, nobody comesin and demands more than people
who are NIMBYs.
Like they want more zoning,they want more restrictions.
They've got their houses.

Speaker 1 (01:33:13):
And now.

Speaker 4 (01:33:14):
They don't want other people to be able to build
anything next to them.
We have to hear louder frompeople who are like, yes, we
want creativity.
Yes we want our city to be ableto do things like infill.
Because you know, I said, I'mlooking at this zoning code and
I've been looking at it for 10years since I joined planning
commission and I'm stillconfused by it yeah like it

(01:33:36):
still just blows my mind likethat I have to sit here and
study to your point, robert,who's a professional in this
space?
you had to study this out for 40hours yeah that should not be
so yeah and I mean, and john andJohn did commit, he said I,
we're going to work, we're goingto work on this Like we really
are, and we do meet with thebuilders a lot, um, and with the
realtors, and it just needs tobe more.

Speaker 1 (01:33:57):
Yeah, and we're moving in the right direction.
There's, there's been a lot ofthings.
It's just slow movement, right,and I'm okay with the slow
movement, you know, know, toyour point where it's like it
feels like there's always, youknow, progression taking place,
like, uh, evolution taking place.
It's just slower and withaffordable housing it should be
slow.

Speaker 2 (01:34:13):
I want it to be slow and careful one.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
One of the things that I'm I'm in uh, disagreement
with the governor on isspecifically this idea that he
can, he can shove it down thecity's throat to be like nope,
you're, you're building 48,000houses, like tomorrow.

Speaker 4 (01:34:28):
And it's like we're just going to give you a bunch
of federal land and you're justgoing to build a bunch of houses
.

Speaker 1 (01:34:32):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:34:33):
That's the same pattern that Vegas did, and it's
a disaster.

Speaker 1 (01:34:37):
Exactly, it's a disaster and, because of our
unique geographical issues, thecompounding effects of just
jumping into it is a problem, sowe have to be thoughtful with
it.
Uh, but uh that, and that's whyI'm so pro redevelopment,
because I don't want to keepsprawling out into the desert.
I like the open spaces.

(01:34:57):
I want to rethink the spacethat we have and can we, can we
change this and that andfinancially make it work?
And ultimately we're in a tightfinancial market to where we
weren't and when, when it wasloose, it was so fast and it was
us trying to keep up with it.
Now that it's slowed down, itallows us this opportunity to
okay, let's really start to testsome things out.
And I'm encouraging, you know,city council members and

(01:35:20):
planning commission members tobe okay with testing some things
out and saying, hey, thatwasn't a great decision, we
tried this.
It didn't quite work, but allowtime to play out and not have
to force this idea of affordablehousing, because ultimately you
could end up with Dixie Downsand things like that, where we
end up that has a 50 year impacton that community Right, and so

(01:35:40):
being a little bit more, youknow, a scalpel rather than a
sledgehammer, I think is isimportant for the city and the
development, but keep lookingforward.
We have to keep thinking forward, especially transportation too.
I'm really encouraging peopleto be like the world is going to
look different in 10 years withtraffic.
Do we really have to have thismany cars, spaces and

(01:36:00):
requirements and do we have tohave parking structures Because
you know China has a billionunliving?
You know homes that nobody'sliving in because they thought,
oh, this is what it was going tolook like and waste a bunch of
time and money and resources?
Uh, I think we could be morethoughtful with transportation.
But anyway, we can talk forever.
Let's get.
Let's get out of here.
Thanks for coming on, guys thisis fun.

Speaker 2 (01:36:22):
Thank you for always fun.

Speaker 1 (01:36:23):
You guys are the best .
Um, thanks for tuning ineverybody.
Bon Rue Bakery, downtown StGeorge they're going to be all
over the world.
Just very shortly Check it out.
I'm going to dive into one ofthese.
Danielle Larkin with the CityCouncil.
Thank you for being here and,mccray, we miss you.
We'll see you out there.
Bye guys, see you out there.
Thanks for listening in.
If you enjoyed this episode,please like and subscribe.

(01:36:44):
Make sure you're following uson all the social media websites
.
We love your support.
We love the dialogue.
We want to continue that going.
Find us at realestate435.com.

Speaker 3 (01:36:53):
We'd love to help you find a house here in town or
help you get wherever you'regoing.

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