The Housing Market Squeeze

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When you think about the life cycle the starter home,

(00:02):
the family home, the retirementhome you know there's this life
cycle and if they don't keepmoving through it and they stall
for whatever reason, it createsa backlog of people that are
able to enter into the market.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
You combine those two things together, you have the
real estate agent and you havethe access to the data for the
buyer.
It's really tough to fool theminto paying for something that
there's not really value in.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
You know it's interesting when you have the
affordability conversation.
What is affordable to me maynot be the same as what is
affordable to you.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
From the Blueform Media Studios.
This is the 435 Podcast, thepulse of Southern Utah.
If you're looking for a nicecup of coffee and you're in
downtown St George, fs Coffee Cothat's where you're going to
want to stop.
It's right there on the cornerof Tabernacle and Main Street in
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So if you've got a bicycle,ride it on down there and grab a

(00:57):
drip of coffee and tell themthe 435 guys sent you.
Hey guys, we have CEO of theWashington County Board of
Realtors, emily Merkley, herewith us today.
We're covering real estate.
We're going to go back overreal estate.
It's May 21st, lots has changedand lots has not changed.

(01:18):
The market moves pretty quickin some ways and in other ways
it does not.
So if you're listening, it'd bea good time to move over to
YouTube.
Check out some of the data here.
But if you're watching, I'mgoing to do my best.
If you're listening, I'm goingto do my best to kind of break
down just the analysis.
We're going to start at kind of20,000 view.

(01:39):
We're going to start up in Utahas a whole to look over what
the health of the market is.
She's going to jump in, butwe're going to rapid fire this
off so that you guys can get anidea of what's going on in the
housing market in Utah and inSouthern Utah in general.
You can always go torealestate435.com and check it
out for the housing marketupdates.
We do them mainly quarterly,but things keep changing and I'm

(02:01):
seeing a lot of movement thatthey're shifting, continuing to
happen and kind of anaccelerated pace for a couple of
different reasons.
I know there's a lot of agentsthat are, you know, saying
otherwise, but in my perspectiveI can see there's a shift
coming stronger and strongertowards the buyer's market over
the next few months and I'lltell you why as we get along.
So home sales 2022 through 2025.

(02:24):
This chart is can be a littlebit tough to look at because
there is four years of data onthis.
I'll zoom in.
We are on pace to have theslowest year in total home sales
that we've had in the last fiveyears, which isn't saying much
because we're looking at thepost-COVID boom that happened

(02:46):
and the number of home salesjumped dramatically.
But I was hopeful that we weregoing to do better in 25 than we
were in 2024.
But total home sales inWashington County are only up 2%
, but basically statewide we'renot tracking for total home
sales statewide, so we're down alittle bit.
Only 34, 3,424 homes sold inMarch.

(03:11):
April data isn't included inthis, but it did not do better
than 2024.
2023 was a slow year as well.
It was the initial bump inrates that pushed a lot of
buyers out of the market and aswe've settled into those higher
interest rates, more and morepeople are getting kind of used
to it.
Wages have come up a little bitand the requirement to get off

(03:32):
the fence is there's not a lotof hope for rates to come down.
So they're just getting off thefence from my perspective.
But home sales continue to besluggish in 2025.
And even if you look backpost-CO COVID, there are still
pretty sluggish from 2019numbers as well.
If you go all the way back there, um annual months of inventory.
So that was looking at justwhat.
How many homes are sellingtotal, right, we're a little bit

(03:54):
down statewide.
Uh, we're a little bit up.
So far this year in WashingtonCounty, only 2%.
We'll get get to that in asecond.
Um months of supply of inventory.
This is an important number tolook at because this is
basically the index as to are wein a buyer's market, a balanced
market or a seller's market,and this goes all the way back
to 2005.
This is statewide.

(04:14):
You could see 2008, 2009,.
We had 11 and 12 months ofinventory.
That's an extreme buyer'smarket.
Obviously, everybody remembershome values collapsed due to a
lot of different factors, mainlybeing supply was already high
at the beginning.
There there was already a tonof inventory already on the
market before the bubble popped.
And then the bubble popped,demand dried up to almost

(04:36):
nothing and supply, as theannual months of inventory goes,
skyrocketed.
And then you can see, asinterest rates came down, the
annual months of inventory goesdown to a bottom in 2021 of 0.9
months of inventory.
Things were flying.
Washington County more homessold than were listed.
Prices soared and we started toclimb back up.

(04:57):
For statewide we're at 3.6months of inventory, which is
still a pretty strong seller'smarket.
There's going to beappreciation on values statewide
.
Not quite the case inWashington County, but it's an
indicator of things that arecoming and you can see on the
chart 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025, it's a climbing number.

(05:19):
Basically it's the point ispeople aren't selling their
house because they don't need tosell their house.
They have a great interest rateand they're not going to want
to move, but we can see thisshift happening.
So statewide we're still in aseller's market at 3.6 months of
inventory.
Anything over four months ofinventory correct me if I'm
wrong, emily anything over fourmonths of inventory is a

(05:40):
balanced market.
We like to see four to sixmonths of inventory to keep pace
with the market so that homevalues don't skyrocket or move
at an unsustainable rate.
So we're just kind ofapproaching that balanced market
statewide.
But it's just one indicator.
It's just one indicator, but itis the best single indicator to

(06:01):
look at, I think, as to whatthe health of the market is.
It is the best single indicatorto look at, I think, as to what
the health of the market is.
Average days on market.
This is a secondary element.
A metric to look at is how longare homes staying on the market
to determine, you know, am Ipriced right?
Is the inventory being acceptedby the demand, the buyers that
are out there?
And we've seen a huge jumpstatewide.

(06:24):
We go all the way back to 2014to get to 69 days in the market,
which is the current Utahaverage days on market.
69 days on the market that goesall the way back to 2014 was the
last time we were that manydays on market, which shows
buyer sentiment is not in a rush, and I think if you talk to
realtors across the board,they're all saying the same
thing Buyers aren't in a rush.

(06:44):
And I think if you talk torealtors across the board,
they're all saying the samething Buyers aren't in a rush.
Sellers are feeling thepressure which, when you have
lingering days on market,sellers decide I should probably
lower the price in order to getsomebody off the fence.
So you'll continue to see asthose days continue to climb.
If they do continue to climbwhich I think they will continue
to climb you're going to seethe absorption rate follow is my

(07:05):
assumption.
There's a lot of agents thatonly use days on market to
determine buyers or sellersmarkets.
What do you think about that?

Speaker 1 (07:11):
I would agree, and I think they're missing out on
valuable data by not alsoincluding the absorption rate.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, it's kind of a two function thing.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
It is.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
Because sometimes you're sitting on the market
because you're just so farpriced out of the market and
it's a good barometer to see.
Okay, if I'm lingering on themarket even though absorption
rate is staying in a seller'smarket, then what is the problem
here?
The issue is likely the houseand the price that we're asking
for the house.

(07:41):
Exactly so.
Average days on market 69 daysstatewide and climbing going all
the way back to 2014 was thelast time we saw that Housing
affordability.
This is something I actuallywant to talk to you about here
in a little bit, but this is theindex of how.
The affordability index takesinto account three functions

(08:03):
it's the interest rate, themedian value of the home, the
home and then the wage themedian wage of the area.
So this is statewide, uh,housing affordability and the
index basically a a perfectaffordable market where those
things align in.
Perfection is 100.
100 is like hey, that's, it'sperfectly affordable about 30%

(08:25):
of the income to purchase thehouse, right?
Anything below 100 means lessaffordable.
Anything above 100 is moreaffordable.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah, I think there's a couple of different indexes
you can look at.
You're basing off of the 100scale.
I look at a different index anda three is a, which means that
your income is three times morethan what the median household
payment would be, is anindicator, right, because that
says that housing is affordable,and the last graph that we

(08:56):
pulled showed Washington Countyat a 6.9.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
6.9, and three is affordable.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
And three would be considered affordable.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
And so below three would be more affordable, extra
affordable, three is affordableand three would be considered
affordable.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
And so below three would be more affordable.
Extra affordable, extraaffordable, yeah, and we're just
great conditions for housingright and for affordability and
housing anything over a three.
It starts to get less and lessaffordable.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
Does that?
So that's just the income, it'sjust the income function, is
that right?

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, they base it off of several factors, like you
said, but a lot of it has to dowith income and then the
housing price.
And what's fascinating about,if we look at Utah, Utah's
median and I think you have thathere is about 500,000, right.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
I think so yeah 500.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Washington County is 520.
So our median is currentlysitting it's come down slightly
since last year and hovering inthe 514, 515.
But we sit higher than thestate's median.
But our wages, our annualmedian income wages, sit about
$16,000 lower than the state'saverage, which kind of gives you

(10:02):
a picture of what affordabilityis like in Washington County.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
We're experiencing they're experiencing extreme
conditions.
Ours are just a little bit moreextreme.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
And even though our wages are keeping pace with the
state average, there's stillthat difference that's causing
problems.
And then you have the disparitybetween the median house price
as well.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
The interesting thing about this affordability index?
Yeah, so, looking right here,this is the Utah home prices by
year.
So 500,000 year to date, so farin 2025, 500,000 in 2024.
And then also, this graph isalso showing the percent
increase from the years abovethe average, which is a 4%

(10:44):
long-term average right.
And so in 2024, the value of ahome was 51% higher than the
long-term average trajectory andat the top in 2022, we're 67%
above the trend line.
And if you look at it goingback to 2007, 2008, we were only
27% above that trend before thebubble popped.
Which is really fascinating tome is to see, you know, as

(11:07):
markets shift, if a shift isindeed coming, if this is a new
trajectory the Fed creates.
You know, basically the numbersbetween five and six trillion
dollars over the course of threeyears.
You pump that money into thesupply, you create new trends,
you create new markets, youcreate new values, and that's
where inflation is coming intoeffect on this.

(11:29):
So I don't necessarily thinkthat that 4% trend line is one
that we're going to revert backto anytime soon for it to
correct.
I see a lot of plateauinghappening until that trajectory
comes up.
At least from my perspective, Idon't see that there's a huge
correction on the horizon, butshort-term corrections are

(11:49):
definitely going to happen.
So, going back to the housingaffordability in Washington
County, even though it is soaffordable or it is so
unaffordable, we also havebasically 30% of the county
that's retired and drawingincome from other places.
That's not the working classthat's factoring into these
housing prices, right?

Speaker 1 (12:09):
I mean you, you certainly have a little.
You have that.
That people moving into thearea that you know mortgage
rates aren't an issue.
They're a second home buyer, sothey're they're cash buyer, so
economic conditions aren't asimportant to them as it is for
somebody that is financing thatmortgage.
We do have these retirees, butdata is showing that sometimes

(12:31):
these retirees are still somedraw additional income from
pension, whatever.
But there are others that areSocial Security based and as
these housing prices go up, sodo their property taxes, and
even they are becoming costburdened by the acceleration of
home prices.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, it's been an interesting dynamic at play, for
everybody for sure, and I thinkit's interesting to go back to
2012.
So, with that 6.9, as yourindex goes as affordability, if
you look at this one, we're at76.
So, basically, it's hard to.
It's not like a percentage,right, but out of a hundred

(13:09):
we're at 76.
So 24 points, uh, lessaffordable than we were in a
perfect market, which was backto 2021.
We were at at affordable rates.
And then, if you go back to 2012, we were at 159 from the
affordability scale, and that'sreally interesting because home

(13:30):
values had fallen so far,because that was basically the
bottom, at the very bottom,where home values were at the
minimum.
So it'd be even moreinteresting and I'd have time to
look back and say, okay, whatwas affordability like back in
the 80s?
Right, if we think of like 70,because this moment in time is a
really similar to the late 70s,early 80s, where interest rates

(13:50):
rose up significantly, whichreally put a big strain on
housing across the country,right, and so it'd be
interesting to see affordabilityindex.
But the 2022, we were at 69 outof 100.
So we've gotten a little bitmore affordable, but not by much
, not by much, and that's, Ithink, a function of wages.

(14:10):
Just don't keep up pace,because it's moving so fast.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
No, and unfortunately it's not as simple as telling
business owners to just pay youremployees more Just pay them
more.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
I was talking to Michelle Tanner.
I was like I think thegovernment has something to do
with this.
It's like 30 to 40% of ourworkforce is government, so the
government could just pay themmore.
I mean, if they're going to beprinting all the money, they can
just pay their employees.
More Might bring up the privatemarket, but that's not really
how it works.
It'd be great in a pretty worldthat might work.

(14:40):
Utah median home payment.
This is an interesting chart asinterest rates.
The yellow line is interestrates gone up and down.
This goes all the way back to2003.
2008,.
We had a 6.3% interest rate.
We just crossed over 7%.
Today, as the 10 yearscontinues, the yield continues

(15:02):
to go up.
Mortgage rates are going to goup.
We just crossed over 7%.
So this is 2024.
Our interest rate was rightaround the six and a half let's
call it six and a half percent,but our payment was 2,500.
The median home value paymentwas $2,500.
And just three years before itwas 1,500.
So $1,000 a month, which ishuge.1,500.

(15:23):
So $1,000 a month, which ishuge, huge, huge.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
In Washington County it's about $2,800 based on our
median.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah, our median At the current interest rates yeah
$2,800.
And it's a tough thing to biteoff, especially when you're on a
fixed income, if you're wantingto move up or move down and you
don't have the full cash, whichmost of them do a big portion
of them do, but that for a firsttime home buyer, it's
completely out of the realm ofpossibility, right?
It just pushes so many peopleout of the market.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
Well, it's interesting.
I was talking to a gentlemanfrom up north.
He works in a silicone slopestech company and he said you
know, I get paid really well.
I get paid really well for thejob that I have and for what I
do.
My wife and I just had ourfirst baby.
And he said we were sittingdown and looking at our finances

(16:14):
I had even just gotten a raiseand we realized we had a choice
to make.
We could either continue togrow our family or get into a
home.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
So like think about the dynamics for that, If that's
the choice that Utah familiesare having to make do I have
children or do I get into a home?
Think of the dynamics in Utahthat would change if people
stopped having children.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
You know what I mean.
Yeah, and what it, what itwould actually do to the economy
and and that's truthfully, thedecisions that a lot of Utah
families are trying, and Utahindividuals in general, are
trying to make right now.
What's more important, a familyor a home.
Yeah, because based on whereI'm at right now, I can't have
both.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, and the tough thing is rent continues to climb
.
I mean it's pulled back alittle bit just in the last year
, but even the HUD to get uh HUDfinancing or uh basically
vouchers, grants for like lowerincome housing for a three
bedroom, it's the.
A fair rent is, uh, I think,$2,000 for a three bedroom Right

(17:16):
and so 2200 to 2200.
And so it's.
Even rent is putting pressureand that's just what the fair
housing market has said.
Is the rent, All the rent isabove that.
Every county across the stateis above what the fair housing
rate for rent is.
And so you're looking at northof that, $2,000 just to get a
three bedroom home and if yougot kids you got to have some

(17:38):
bedrooms, right, Unless you'relike me and I put all my kids in
one room, I just put them allin one room.
I don't know if that's going toplay out in the long term, but
it seems to be working out nowwhile they're little, while
they're little.
So yeah, it's expensive to buyhouses across the state median
sales price and the payment ishigh.
Projected housing demand.
This is I don't know how theycome up with the number.

(17:59):
I would like a little bit moredeep dive into this, your
perspective on how they come upwith these numbers.
But in Washington County we'reshort 22,000 homes.
Utah as a state, we're short44,000 homes based on the demand
.
People that are.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
The demand between now and like eight years from
now, I think is what thatstatistic shows.
That yes, and it is based onpopulation growth.
So internal migration, netmigration, and then influx of
people from outside the state.
You know it's interesting whenyou have the affordability
conversation what is affordableto me may not be the same as

(18:36):
what is affordable to you.
And when people from outsidethe state look at Utah, yes, to
us living here and with thewages we we have, it feels and
it looks unaffordable.
But to somebody who's in amarket like california or
washington dc or new york, whichour mls shows, those are heat
maps like where a lot of there'sa lot of look eyes looking at

(18:59):
our mls, um, it's very appealingyeah to them our housing prices
are low.
To them our taxes, our propertytaxes, are low.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, on the last episode we covered a bunch of
different areas where what istheir median price moving here
from, and Indiana was anotherhotspot.
For whatever reason, indianapeople are more we're appealing
In Indiana no, that was the onlyone that the median home price
was less, but everywhere elsewas significantly higher.
Not just like a little bit, butyou can get a lot more house

(19:29):
for less money, Right.
And so that migration to yourpoint.
And this is dwellings, right.
So this isn't like projectedhousing demand for affordable
units, this is just rooftops,Rooftops in general, Just
rooftops in general.
44,000 across the state.
Short in Washington County weWait a minute.

(19:50):
Utah County is 44,000.
Utah County is 44,000.
Utah statewide is much biggerthan that, Right.
So 44,000 Utah County, 42,000Salt Lake County and then
Washington County coming in atthird at 22,000 units that we
need.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
And I'm glad you point that out, that it's
rooftops, because our market isso unique where we have a second
home market.
There's the vacation rentalelement, there's the
affordability and we see westill have this high demand for
these luxury multi-milliondollar houses.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
There's everything, yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
McMansions.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
So it's a need for the whole rate, the whole range
of homes and dwellings, utahmortgage rates.
This is an interesting stat andthis is just keeps dwindling
every time I look at it.
80% of mortgages have less thana 5% interest rate, 28% have
almost 29% have 3% or lowerinterest rate, 38% have between

(20:47):
three and 4% and those are thepeople that are never going to
move.
Yeah or they're forced to belandlords.
They're going to be forced torent that house out.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
Right yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Right.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Even if they don't want to.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, it's for them to give that up, and we've seen
the number keeps dwindling.
We look at this almostquarterly and it's getting
smaller and smaller.
It was 89% last year it was 89%of mortgages were less than 5%,
and so it's shrinking, but it'sa slow shrink.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
It's a really slow shrink.
Well, I think there is anelement of people are forced to
move, right.
I think where you have areaswhere the cost of living is
increasing, they leave right.
Where can I go where I can finda lower cost of living, lower
housing and still get the wages?

Speaker 2 (21:33):
that.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
I have, and so I think that there has been a
shift in people who probablydidn't want to lose that 3% but
for whatever reason, had tobecause of other extenuating
circumstances, job relocation,whatever Divorces.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Divorces right.
You're just kind of forced todo it.
You can't keep it right.
There's a lot of equity inthere and the value of the house
is there and typically theydon't have the money to buy one
or the other person out to keepthat rate the same.
So divorce is a big part of it.
Job transfers obviously deathhas a function into it, but
those are, in my mind, those arethe only.
And that's where the market, Ithink, is so frozen is because

(22:10):
there's such a big portion ofthe market that's not moving.
They're just not moving.
They're not looking to go up.
They don't need to go down.
You know, if you have a bighouse and you want to sell and
downsize, right, kids are out ofthe house You're not forced to
do it.
It's like well, I can keepliving in my big house.
I don't really want to keepliving in that house.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
But Right, and see, that's the problem.
When you think about the lifecycle, the starter home, the
family home, the retirement home, you know there's this life
cycle and if they don't keepmoving through it and they stall
for whatever reason, it createsa backlog of people that are
able to enter into the market.
Right, so you have people thatare going well.
I bought this home when myneeds were less.

(22:51):
I was single.
I didn't have a family, so Iwent with the two bedroom, one
bathroom, 900 square footbungalow.
But now I have a wife and twokids and I'm forced to make this
work because there's nothingavailable that I can afford.
Mortgage rates are keeping mehere and nothing else is opening
up that allows them totransition through that life

(23:12):
cycle.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Right, exactly, so it's keeping things locked up.
Okay, moving on, washingtonCounty.
So absorption rate inWashington County, year to date
is just under five.
So five months of inventory,we're right there in a balanced
market, right, right in the mixof the balanced market.
And if you look at the averagesold, if you jump down to the

(23:34):
average sold price, we'reactually down 4% from last year,
almost $30,000 less on theaverage.
But the median price has goneup and we'll go into kind of
some of the individual pricepoints that things have changed.
So yeah, the absorption rate,five months of inventory, in
April we were, uh, 5.23 itclient.
It keeps climbing right.

(23:55):
But if you look at annualchange in that absorption rate
25 year over year change in theabsorption rate it's a big jump.
It's a huge jump.
It's a big jump and these arerolling.
The way they function, this isthey look at the past 12 months
of sales to create thisabsorption rate.
So it's not just saying in thisone month, this is what the
absorption rate is based off,the last 12 months of how many

(24:16):
homes sell and then.
So that's how they come up withthis months of inventory.
So it is a good picture inabsorption rate as to where the
health of the market is, and aswe continue to see that
absorption rate climb up, you'regoing to see more and more
pressure on pricing coming down.
More and more pressure onpricing coming down.
If you look at the average listprice, we're trying to list and
sell for more we're almost 2%higher than we were last year

(24:43):
even though we're getting 4%less right?

Speaker 1 (24:44):
I mean, you're an agent.
You probably experience thoseclients who say to you well, I
need to sell my house, but Iwant what I could have got two
years ago.
That's true, and oftentimesthese sellers push for that list
price and in a month, six weeks, when they're not getting any
traction, they're making pricecorrections.
So we are seeing the list tosales price ratio expand as well
.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, and I'll cover that here in a second.
It definitely expands.
The other way I think of thislist price is that if I don't
sell it for this, I can't makethe change Because it's like it
might not be what the market'ssaying.
But if I can't sell the housefor this much, I'm just not
going to move because I don'thave enough equity.
If I don't sell it at thisprice to go on to that next

(25:26):
house, right Going back to, I'mstuck here and if I could get
this price then I don't have tobe stuck here.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
But if I can't get this price then I guess I'm
stuck here and I just right, andI'm hearing from agents to a
lot of sellers saying, well, Iwant, I want to see what I can
do.
Yeah, and that's not helpfulreally either, Because if you're
not serious about selling,you're going on the market.
I mean it just it fluctuatesthe data.
It's not helpful in the longrun.

(25:50):
Right, but there's more andmore people with that mindset
that I can only move if I cannet X.
If I can't net X, then I'mstaying put.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Right, exactly, and so it's a tough conversation.
I've had thousands ofconversations.
I remember in 2015,.
I was working with JeremyLarkin and we would go into
Entrata and this is 2015.
You think we were, we werealready kind of digging out of
the bottom of it.
And 2015, 2016, they were stillin trotter homes that were like
hundred thousand dollars upsidedown in the properties that

(26:20):
they had bought in 2005, youknow.
And this, 10 years later, andthey were still 100 grand and
they're just like get out ofhere.
And then they'd hit the marketfor the price that they want and
it wouldn't sell, and then itexpired and it doesn't move.
And there's just countlessexamples of like expired,
expired, expired.
Some houses just don't sell butit's mainly because the price

(26:40):
that they're asking the buyersaren't willing to pay that right
.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
They see the value.
I do think because of thechallenges that buyers are
facing today.
They are more savvy, and theyreally are.
They're not.
The COVID days are gone, wherethey were willing to risk paying
over list price or overappraisal price and and deplete
a savings account just to getinto a home.
They're more savvy now.
They're going to be morecareful.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, and this goes back to the value of a realtor
because, if you know, zillow wasa baby in 2005 and six, like it
, didn't really start picking upsteam till 2007.
So if you look at the, the data, the amount of data, whether
it's accurate or not, the,whether they have data at their
fingertips, online, that theycan, they can establish an
understanding of the marketwithout going to a real estate

(27:24):
agent, and so you combine thosetwo things together you have the
real estate agent and you havethe access to the data.
For the buyer is it's it'sreally tough to fool them into
paying for something thatthere's not really value in.
Right, it's really difficult todo these days, especially these
days versus uh generations past.
As markets change.
Um median sole price I thinkit's an interesting number is

(27:47):
really just been stable Um monthover month.
You know April of 25 versusApril 24, it's 5% less, but year
to date, all of the monthscombined.
You know the last four monthsbecause it's just up to date at
the end of April I know it sayshere folks who are paying
attention it says March, butit's April.
Up to April's data, the mediansales price is $515.

(28:10):
It's pretty much been low fivesfor like six months right.
It's like that's the medianprice of 515.
It's pretty much been low fivesfor like six months, right,
it's like that's the medianprice of a home.
Uh, days on market we actuallysaw days on market go down in
the last few months, uh, andthis year, but not by much one
day on the median cumulativedays on market and then the
average cumulative days onmarket is 77 days on the market.

(28:30):
Um, cumulative being sometimesit goes on the market and then
comes off the market undercontract and then goes back on
the market or they pull it offthe market for whatever reason
and then they put it back on orthey change agents.
So the total amount of daysconsecutively without a
two-month break, I think it'stwo months, 30 days, 30-day
break, that's where it'scollected and then even from

(28:51):
pending to going under contract,because typically about 30 days
on the market it's still notfully closed until that number.
So take it for what you will,but days on market is staying
pretty stable as right now, but77 days average on the market is
still significantly higher.
It's over that 69 daysstatewide.
It's taken a lot longer to sellhomes than it has in a long

(29:14):
time.
Just at a glance, 30-year rate6.99.
This was as of yesterday, buttoday I know it just crested
over 7%.
As an index, it's a 30-yearindex.
It's looking at a bunch ofdifferent mortgage rates,
everybody's mortgage rates I saythis every time.
Everybody's mortgage rate isdifferent Debt to income ratio,
what's your credit score, what'syour payment histories, all

(29:35):
these different things.
Your rate is going to bedifferent.
So you got to make sure youtalk to a qualified lender.
We can help you with that Ifyou need talk to a lender and
they can give you what yourinterest rate would be.
But this is an index of all themortgages that are going out.
Balance market I think wecovered.
We covered that oh, whatsellers want versus what they
get.
So I like to look at what theoriginal uh most of the data

(29:58):
like.
If you look on zillow or youlook at even uar data, they use
uh, the, the final list to saleratio.
I like to look at what was theoriginal list like, what did
they start at and then what didthey start at and then what did
they sell at?
Because the price reductions, Ithink, have a function in
watching where buyer sentimentis and we've hovered around the

(30:20):
95% to 96% and good agents willlook at the true, the full
history, the full history.
Because if you look at it, justlist to sale, it's about 98%,
98% to 99%.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, about 2% less than.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
Which is the reason why the buyer they saw value and
then they're like, okay, once Isee the value, most people they
don't want to negotiate superhardcore.
That's not their natural way.
There's probably 10% of themarket in there is like let's go
in, pull the Trump, you knowart of the deal, let's super low
ball them and see where we canget them.
But that's not typically thecase and so that original list

(30:55):
price is showing hey, it failedat this point and we've hovered
around the 95%, which ishistorically pretty low, pretty
low.
I mean it typically is like 97,96 to 97%.
Most of the time it's 97 orabove original list price to
sales ratio.
So we're below that, whichmeans buyers are they're they're

(31:16):
not looking, they're notputting offers in on homes that
they don't see value in.
This is like I said they'regetting savvy.
They're getting savvy.
This is because everybodyalways asks well, my neighbor's
house sold for this price persquare foot.
They always go to price persquare foot.
I want to get that for my housebecause this is what price per
square foot is.
There's two totally differentnumbers.
Your house is not the same asyour neighbor's house.

(31:38):
Depending on size, there'sdiminishing return on size.
So if they're 500 square feet,600 square feet that's just one
bedroom, but that skews what theprice per square foot does.
And then if they're two storyand you're a single level,
that's not going to match up.
Or if they're a single leveland you're a walkout basement,
it's also not going to match upAlso year that the home was
built.
The year the home was built anda lot of them with your

(32:00):
neighbors, like theneighborhoods, a lot of that is
pretty close.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
I mean, I'm about to build in a neighborhood where
the surrounding homes are 20years older than me.
Yeah, which is?

Speaker 2 (32:08):
tough, but you got an infill lot, that, but you got
an infill lot.
That's a good one.
We want to keep building inthose infill lots.
Okay, year to date single level.
So single level price persquare foot $302 a square foot.
Two story price per square foot$265 a square foot.
So you get less, less persquare per square foot as you go

(32:30):
up.
So, yeah, there it is.
That's, that's the what's goingon in the market.
So average prices declined forthe first time in 2025 from a
month perspective, just thesingle month.
If you looked at over year todate, the average has fallen,
but the single month averageprice declined for the first
time in 2025.
So, out of all the months theaverage price declined, active

(32:50):
inventory remains 10 year high.
We have 1700 and this isdwellings.
This does include land, lot andwater and some of these other
listings commercial multifamilyand specifically Washington
County, and this specificallyWashington County 1700 homes.
So it cuts out Iron Countybecause our MLS covers stuff in
Sandy and then in Cedar City.

(33:10):
So this is just WashingtonCounty, but it's a 10 yearyear
high.
So I went back to the data.
10-year high was the last time,march of 2015 inventory was
1800 homes.
Uh, so we've we've hit a10-year high, which is is
relatively speaking.
If you go back to 2005, we hadlike 3 000 homes on the market

(33:31):
in 2004 and 5, 3 000 most ofthem were vacant.
It's crazy.
I stumbled into a uh brad, uhhabel brad, I don't brad habel
uh agent here in town.
I forget his first name, joshjosh habel uh.
When I was doing research itpulled a blog post of his from
2006 and it was showing how muchactive inventory is like 3000,

(33:54):
which I thought was funnybecause there wasn't a lot of
MLS data Like our MLS data, Ithink, only goes back to 2007
and then 2006, 2005,.
It's like all sporadic.
There's like you could seemonths that data was getting
transferred over Um.
But yeah, 3000 homes back whenthe market popped before, which
is crazy, but informationnonetheless for you guys to take

(34:15):
in.
Numbers sold units are up 2%.
So number of units were up 2.9,almost 3% year to date in
Washington County.
So, unlike Utah as a whole,we're still seeing increased
growth from last year in numberof units sold.
So demand is staying strong.
Compared to last year, interestrates hovering over 7% we

(34:35):
covered that Absorption rate.
Rapid growth days on market,slight drop year over year.
Those are kind of the keyfunctions.
So I've done this a couple oftimes, looking at different
price points.
If you're looking at this chart,if it's in green, that means
supply and demand are bothincreasing.
So supply is going up.
The number of new listingshitting the market in this year

(34:57):
has gone up and also demand hasgone up for that supply.
If it's in yellow, that meanssupply has gone down and demand
has gone down for those pricepoints.
And then red is supply has goneup and demand has gone down,
meaning there's downwardpressure on pricing.
So I think the most notablenumbers is that three to 350

(35:19):
mark.
I was going to say yeah, yeah,really three to four.
I mean as a whole three to four.
We're not keeping up withsupply at that price point and I
think that has to do with sizeand the ability to build in this
price point and the existinghome inventory.
Because we're not building newinventory, this existing home
inventory is pushing up intothat 400,000, which you can see

(35:40):
is 400 to 450 is up 21% insupply.
So because we can't build inthat lower price point, then
you're going to see a lowersupply number and demand is down
because there's not a lot ofoptions out there.
Also, it's just a side note canyou talk to the mls to see if
we could fix this?
Uh, these, the five to 750 markreally throws me off, because

(36:04):
it's the biggest chunk out ofall of them but it's hard to see
down more.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
We can break it down a little bit more.
Break it down more um, it would.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
It would be helpful because everybody's you know you
have these little price windowsfor the house and so for me to
be able to see, okay, this isseeing supply demand in price
points is really actuallyhelpful when I'm talking to
sellers about it and there's alot of inventory between five
and seven and I can separate itout.
But you got to go to the quicksearch and then you got to do
the CMA statistical.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
I can take care of that.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
You're the best.
I appreciate that.
So $450,000 to $500,000, wehave a 24% increase in supply
and a 6% decrease in demand,which is really interesting,
especially considering demand$450,000 to $450,000 has gone up
.
So there's this water linebased off interest rates that I

(36:56):
think are keeping people frombeing able to crest over that
$450,000 mark.
But our builders have done agood job at building in that
$400,000 to $500,000 mark, Ithink, over the last two years.
So that's helped a little bit.
But there is a little bit ofdownward pressure in pricing
just below $500,000.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
The state down payment incentive for the grant
for new construction first timehome buyers was helpful.
I think it really motivatedbuilders to focus more on that
price point and meet that pricepoint to also meet the demand
and the opportunity for thosebuyers to enter the market.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, there's been some policy grants and things
like that.
That's helped have buildersstart building more of that
product.
And I know SITLA.
They've offered up four parcelsof land in Washington County
and they're trying to hit a$400,000 price point.
They are.
I don't think they're going tomake a $400,000 price point for
those, but I'm hopeful.
Maybe they can.
Maybe Jed can figure somethingout to get that done.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
I mean, he's showing that it can be done.
He's showing that it can bedone and it's fascinating too,
because a lot of people wereskeptical and if you talk to him
, even his own accountant thatwas like I can't make sense of
this.
Why do you want to sell a$375,000 single family home?
You know, and the after thenews article broke, that he was
doing this.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Jed Nielsen Nielsen homes yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Um.
Over a hundred people showed upto the model home that day and
he said, yes, tell me, there'snot a demand for this home.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Yeah, you're like why would I do it?
Well, because we wouldn't have.
We wouldn't have this propertyto build on, it would.
We'd have to go build somewhereelse.
And so why would I do it?
It's because there's demand forit.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
There's demand and and quantity.
If you give me the opportunityto build the number of units,
then I'm not losing anything andI'm providing.
I mean, he's providing thatsomething that's so needed in
Utah right now and he provedthat the demand exists.
And when you talk to buyersright now, they just want an
opportunity to get into themarket.

(38:44):
And when you have these citiesset these size restrictions or
design standards and you havethese buyers going, I'm okay
with Formica.
I don't need a stone countertop, I just need a tile roof.
Right, right.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yeah, I don't.
I don't know why we requireblock walls everywhere.
I get.
I get it.
The sun beats up the wood andthe vinyl.
I get it and it's it'sexpensive to maintain over time,
but at the same point it's likeyou're you're requiring we have
to build block walls.
This is crazy.
Well, I think that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
And two I think oftentimes we talk about
homeownership and the mainbenefit being wealth generation,
and that is huge.
But I think people forget thatdata shows that homeowners are
more civically engaged right,they're involved and they pay
attention.
They are more likely tomaintain that home.
Their kids are more likely toachieve higher education, I mean

(39:40):
socially.
They're invested becausethey've now created this
community right, and if theydon't have that opportunity,
we're setting them back fordisadvantages down the road.
And so if they had opportunities, if these design standards
would that that cities wouldalleviate or be a little bit
more flexible to allow for that,I think that they would see so

(40:03):
many more benefits in withintheir cities and within these
communities.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yeah, I just think it's unnecessary.
I do too, and I think there'san argument to be made.
You have these developers thatare greedy, right, but when you
put their P&L under a microscope, nobody would be able to argue
that because the profit marginfor a developer is right around
10%, they'd be so happy with 15%, but it's about 10%.

(40:32):
And Jed's not making 10%.
When he's selling those 750,you know, or a 375 to $400,000
houses, he's not making 10%, buthe's making a marginal enough
to know that if this isimpactful to the community, he
cares about the communities thathe's building in and he sees
the demand and the need and it'smore about creating something
that has a lasting legacy thanjust just the dollar, dollar.

(40:53):
And there are a lot of thosedevelopers out there and I think
, uh, it's easy to paint a paint, a broad brush to developers
and home builders to say they'rejust greedy and they're just
building these houses becauseyou know they want to make a lot
of money.
It's like, well, they're,they're weighing out demand
versus what do I know I can sell.
Like, if I'm going to invest ina two million dollar house,

(41:14):
it's because they're prettyconfident they might actually
have a buyer already.
That's putting them into aposition to build that $2
million house right.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
And something else that I think is really notable
about what he's doing is heinvested the time.
And when you talk to developersthey say you know for every day
, for every month, that I'mdelayed in a development, that I
spend in planning or fightingthe city to alleviate some of
these restrictions or to allowfor higher density.
It's costing me money and thatend cost is tacked on to the

(41:45):
cost of the home for furtheringan unaffordable unit.
And so there are oftentimesbuilders and developers who are
who say city, just tell me whatI can do, right, because I I
don't, I don't want to make thisany more affordable than than
what it is.
So I'll try to comply and andwhat Jed said was no, no, no,

(42:07):
we're not going to do that,we're not going to do this,
we're going to make this work,and he invested the time and
think he set a standard that Ithink other I'd love to see
other builders follow.
And he's going around the statepromoting what he's doing to
other cities in an effort to seecities kind of pull back.

(42:28):
And that's the thing.
That's hard too is a lot ofpeople will say to me, emily,
the government can't solve allyour problems.
Right and OK, there's truth tothat.
But it's.
Ok, the government is here tosave us.
But also government created someof these problems.
Yeah, and it's only through thegovernment process that we can
pull back Right, there was aninteresting article I read.

(42:49):
I can send it to you.
But they talked about how, youknow, this government oversight
was necessary.
You know, in New York, you know, 100 years ago, where multiple
families' health conditions werebad and so they had to come in
and say, okay, we've got tocreate some rules and laws to
preserve and create safe andstable living environments.

(43:11):
But now we've swung a littlebit too far.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah, right, well, and interestingly, I don't know
how to talk these days.
The interesting part about thatis that because younger cities,
small towns, didn't want to putthe work and effort into
adopting zoning codes or rules,they just blanket adopted these
rules that across the entirecountry.

(43:34):
Right, and it's like so whatwas well?
If it was okay in Dallas, thenit's okay across the entire
country.
Then it works here, right?
Which isn't the case, right?
Every community should be alittle bit different.
But it took a lot of work andit was like oh, you can just
adopt these housing policies andthese guidelines, this code,
and now we're going to you know,freddie and Fannie Mae, we're
going to give lending if youadopt this one.

(43:55):
But if you don't adopt this one, you come up with your own.
Then it's going to have to gothrough approval process to get
lending qualifications on thistype of housing unit, right.
And so, instead of oh, we'rejust going to figure out our
thing, we're just going to adoptthe one that they did across
the country, and then it neverchanged.
Those standards and policiesjust never changed, right.
And a lot of those policieswere predatory in nature to

(44:17):
different socioeconomic classes,specifically like line items,
oh, absolutely Specificallyacross the South, right, it was
specifically to cut out lowersocioeconomic areas from them
owning homes.
And then those codes andpolicies were adopted across the
entire country.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
Google the redlining maps.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
The redlining maps.
Yeahlining maps for Salt.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
Lake City and you see that that dynamic it may not
have been as much of a racething but a religious thing and
if you look at that redliningand I'm not trying to be
disrespectful at all, but youlook at that redlining map and
based on what was happening inthe 40s, has had very negative
effects on today.

(44:55):
I mean, you think thisshouldn't be happening right now
, but it's because of thosepractices back then that have
shaped the, have shaped thecommunities and the problems
that exist today.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, and it goes it always.
And I, the reason I saysocioeconomic is because they
they put it into a perspectiveof a finance terms, but whether
it's the color of your skin oryour religion or it, came down
to.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
What class are you?
What class are you?

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Right.
And if you were in that class,you were basically excluded from
owning a house because banksdidn't want to lend on this
lower socioeconomic class, andthen that's had compounding
effects for decades, right, well, right, they viewed you as
higher risk, right, exactly, itwas social credit score all the
way back then.
We had that already.
We think it's new.
It's not new.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
You know what, though ?
I mean?
You see it today.
You go and you attend any citycouncil meeting or a fair
housing class that I wasteaching just last month, and
you talk about exactly whatyou're talking about and the
need for more diversecommunities, and when I say
diverse, I'm not just talkingabout the color of your skin,
right, I'm talking about housingtypes and allowing for

(46:05):
different socioeconomicbackgrounds to move in, and I
had a realtor raise her hand andsay, but what about my home
value?
Yeah, and you're going oh mygosh, okay, this is the problem.
This is the problem, and you'vegot these people that are
embedded in communities thatthey are far more concerned

(46:30):
about who their neighbor isgoing to be, far more concerned
about who their neighbor isgoing to be, and I think what
they don't realize is, by youtrying to fight or restrict
different housing types anddifferent housing accessibility
to different groups of people,you're eventually going to price
out your own children frombeing able to live here.
You're also going to impactyour own quality of life, right?

(46:51):
Because if the barista fromStarbucks can't live here and
the nurse who takes care of yourailing parents can't live here,
right, that impacts the qualityof your life and, truthfully,
when we look at differentmulti-unit or high density
communities around the nation,it actually shows the opposite.
It doesn't show that it resultsin housing prices dropping in

(47:13):
different housing types.
It actually shows the opposite.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
It doesn't show that it results in housing prices
dropping in different housingtypes.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
It actually shows that it actually supports
appreciation.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah, there's a certain buyer out there.
It's like I use Middleton Ifyou're familiar with Washington
County, like Middleton it's anolder area on the border between
St George and Washington City.
It's off I-15.
On the border between St Georgeand Washington city it's off
I-15 and you are required todrive through Middleton to get
up to a bunch of really luxuryview homes up top.
And I've had a couple buyers belike man, you really got to

(47:45):
kind of drive through some someold stuff to get here, right,
and they kind of have this likeface that's like oh, that's
hilarious.
Yeah, this, this is kind of arundown part of town, right.
Like yeah, it's, it's an olderpart of town but it's, it's just
down the street and ultimatelyall of those homes sell over a
million dollars, like ultimately, like that perspective of, oh,
I got to drive through this area, maybe it's not the ideal thing
to drive through because it wasindustrial space and there was

(48:08):
mobile homes there at one time.
There's still a few left.
It doesn't really change thevalue of the home Ultimately it
doesn't do it.
And but this goes back to homeownership versus, because right
now what we're dealing with isthe difference between a
McMansion and then a bunch ofcondos, yeah Right.
And like, if I'm looking at thetype of person that I'm or the

(48:28):
quality of a neighborhood, if wejust stack a bunch of
apartments, which isn'tnecessarily a bad thing in
certain areas of town, again,all housing types are needed.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
All housing types are needed.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
You know the type of person that can't afford a home,
isn't going to invest in theircommunity and they're not going
to take care of it.
But if they can own thatproperty, whether it's a condo
or a townhome or a small singlefamily home, that ownership
piece will.
They will on the on the long,broad margin they will take care
of it.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
They're an asset to the community Exactly.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
But I'm going to wrap this part up so we can kind of
keep rolling forward.
My, my biggest price fear is amillion to 2 million.
So supplies grown 13% and onthe flip side demand has dropped
13%.
So it's like a big swing andit's the biggest swing on the
map here right now is between amillion and 2 million and I

(49:20):
think a lot of that has to dowith the new construction is
landing in that price point.
As well as the move, the buyerthat's moving out or around,
whether it's a second home,because this fits into a lot of
different categories.
This is just single familyhomes where they moved out of
the area or they want justsomething different.
They have the abilityfinancially to make a change

(49:42):
left or right.
So you have new constructionand existing inventory competing
in the same market as well as adrop in the ability for people
to buy those homes.
They're buying powers down.
They're buying powers down, so,and they're going to end up
just getting something a littlebit less right Between 750 and a
million and there's a littlebit more inventory in that price
point but demand has grown downbelow that million.

(50:04):
So I think that's that bigprice point where we're going to
see a big squeeze and basicallyeverything over a million
there's.
There's a squeeze going onMillion to 2 million.
We're down 5% in supply,demands down 52%.
But the total number we're onlyat 19 units.
Uh, nine nine homes between twoand 3 million have sold so far

(50:25):
this year.
We're 19 sold last year.
Um, where we have 50 of thoseunits have hit the market.
There's a tight squeeze over amillion.
That and that always happens asthe market squeezes.
You're going to see it squeezefrom the top down and we're
seeing that start to trickle ondown.
Overall, supplies up 16%,demands up only 2.9%.

(50:47):
Something to keep a watch on.
That's why I think we'repushing more and more closer to
a buyer's market.
If you're watching it closely,let's see what else we have here
.
Okay, a realtor data.
So that's kind of the wrap forthe housing market update.
My advice to buyers is it's okayto be patient, negotiate.
Don't be afraid to negotiate.

(51:09):
If you see a house just hit themarket and it seems like it's
overpriced, you can watch it orpotentially go in and put an
offer in and see what they do,because I think sellers who have
put them a house on the marketthey're motivated.
Still, it's hard to identifythat, but don't be afraid to
negotiate a little bit moreright now in the market Sellers,

(51:29):
be realistic with where themarket's headed.
The values are going down,they're not going up, especially
if you're over that $500,000mark.
The demand is just notsupporting a lot of those values
.
So be realistic about yoursales price.
If your neighbor sold for anumber, it's, or a comparable
home is sold for a number, it'slikely a little bit less, or
right at that.
Don't try to go more than whatyour neighbor sold just to have

(51:51):
this.
You know, feather in your cap,that you had the nicer house
than your neighbor, right, right.
But yeah, be realistic with theprices.
So those are.
That's my advice for buyers andsellers.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
I think, to don't get discouraged.
I think there's a lot ofchallenges that buyers face, but
opportunities are there.
Yeah, just work with an agent,work with a realtor, be patient,
just like you said, and beready so when the opportunity,
the right opportunity comesyou're ready.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Yeah, be ready, be ready.
Do the financing part first.
Let's look at go talk to alender and we can direct you to
a few that we trust.
But definitely go find amortgage broker.
I appreciate your banks andyour credit unions and they can
give you these deals and allthis stuff.
But go to a mortgage brokerthat's looking at a lot of
different products across theboard and and draw out a game

(52:36):
plan right, Take, take a fewmonths ahead of when you really
want to go buy to get that, thatfoundation set, so that way,
when you do find the one thatyou want, you can pull the
trigger Right.
Anything else on that?
Okay, let's talk about realestate and what's going on in
the industry.
So if anybody's been following,anybody who's still listening is
probably a realtor or hassomebody in the real estate

(52:57):
business and they want to knowwhat's going on.
The industry has changed alittle bit over the last six
months in some ways and ithasn't changed in other ways.
Yeah, NAR versus UAR membershipreport.
There's just thousands ofrealtors out there.
There's 1.5 million realtorsacross the country.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
I think everybody knows somebody that's a realtor.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Everybody knows somebody.
There's 19,000.
And this is according to UARmembership report.
But you were saying before wegot started that that membership
number might not be 100%accurate.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
No, the membership number is right, but membership
versus licensees.
So there are a lot of people inUtah that have a license but
don't subscribe.
Maybe they're a part-time orthey're working a referral
network or property management.
But the last number I saw oftotal real estate licensees in
the state it was close to 30,000.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
Wow yeah, that's crazy.
So so I think this Utah, the KWUtah, probably scrubbed.
These are probably sellingagents.
So 19,000 agents according tothe Utah Association of Realtors
.
What's that number look like inWashington County?

Speaker 1 (54:02):
So in Washington County right now we have about
1,650 local agents.
I do have about 400 more inkind of surrounding Southern
Utah areas Kanab, iron County,places like that so about 2000
that live and work here in thearea In our area and how many of

(54:23):
those actually sell real estate, like how many of them have
closed a deal?

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Do you know the number of how many have actually
closed a deal?

Speaker 1 (54:29):
I do check from time to time and it is fascinating
because there is a smallpercentage that does about 50%
of the sales volume and it'sabout 10%.
Wow, now, and these are your.
This is my full-time job, youknow every day, this is how I

(54:51):
make my money, type of agent.
Now, kind of the beauty aboutbeing in real estate is you get
out of it what you put in.
And so I often see teachers who, during the summer months, when
they're not teaching, this is away to supplement income, and
so certainly there are a lot ofpart-time agents.

(55:12):
I believe, far more part-timeagents than there are full-time
agents.
I also think and you know I camefrom Logan, which is a very
different market and a verydifferent demographic of agent
there are a lot of agents thatretire down here and there are a
lot of agents that retire downhere and there are a lot of
agents that they still havetheir license, they still

(55:33):
maintain membership with arealtor organization, but
they're not actively selling,and so, if I were to pull data
from our MLS, about 50% of ourmembers did not participate in
one transaction side last year.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
Wow, yeah, that's crazy.
So that cuts it to like athousand agents that are
actually doing business.
And then you said 10% of theagents are doing 50% of the
sales.
Yeah, just under 50%.
Yeah, that's pretty crazy.
Is that number changing?
Has it changed, like in thelast five years?

Speaker 1 (56:07):
I mean it's hard to say, I've only been down here
for about three and a half, sothat's kind of my window of time
and insight into this market.
I grew up in Salt Lake and thenlived in Cache Valley for 16
years before coming down here,so but in terms of the last
three and a half years that I'vebeen down here, that has stayed
pretty consistent.
We are currently I did amembership report today we are

(56:31):
currently sitting at about 170agents less than at September
1st of last year.
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
So there's a few getting out.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
There are people getting out, but I am also so.
Typically, if you're a realtor,October 1st comes your dues
renewal time.
And we generally see thebiggest drop off at that time,
and so when I say we're 170 less, we had a drop off of about 350

(57:02):
, 360.
And we've made that up justsince last September.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
Yeah, the attrition rate, from what I understand, is
about 80% of agents that gettheir license will stop selling
within two to three years.
That's correct About 80%attrition rate and so if you
made it it's not almost 10 years.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
This is my 10 year mark.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
This is my 10 year mark.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
It is not easy.
It is not easy.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
It's a tough job.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
It is a tough job and I think that there, I think
good agents pay attention to thedetails, pay attention to
what's happening in the industry, not just here locally, but
nationwide and and truly and Igotta be careful saying this but
they're the ones that are bestserving their clients.
Let's be honest, there is anelement of if I'm only in this

(57:51):
business part-time, I'm onlygiving it part-time attention.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
And um, you're right.
In the last six months to ayear, so much has changed.
So much has changed, and I wasan agent in um 2005 to 2010,
2011.
Things are changing at a farfaster pace now than they were
back then.
In terms of what, and Iexperienced the recession Like
the market- Just, industrychanges, market changes, the

(58:17):
amount of lawsuits that we havegoing on in terms of the real
estate tech, you know, and datathat's out there.
I mean it's on a whole notherlevel than it was 20 years ago.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Yeah, it reminds me of like when they just
transferred to the MLS, likefrom like printing out the
active listings.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
I still have those MLS books at my office.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
Yeah, you'd have to like line up every day and
everybody be printing out thenewest listings for that day.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Well, and by the time that booklet was printed, some
of those houses were alreadygone.
I mean they were not up to date, Right.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
And so I think it was more difficult to be an agent
back then, in my opinion.
Oh, sure it was far moredifficult to be an agent back
then in some ways and then inother ways.
But you can see, even over timesince 1990, like this is almost
parabolic increase in number ofagents, like up to 2007, 2008,
there was this huge jump up ofagents and then we had this huge

(59:14):
drop off till 2012.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
And then it's just been a sharp climb.
Yes, and COVID brought a wholelot of agents to the market
because, I'm sorry, it was easymoney, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
Yeah, I mean, it's easy short-term money and you
can supplement your lifestyle bydoing it this way.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
Sure, and that's truly what we're seeing.
It's not a way to live a life.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
Because if you look at that 50% that didn't sell
anything, they didn't make anymoney, so they likely had
another job.
And then of the remaining 40%,if 10% are doing 50% of the work
, the remaining 40% most of themare closing four to five deals
a year, which is like 40 to 50grand a year.
Like it's not that great.
It's not a living wage?
No, it's not.
And so, that being said, withthe changes that have happened,

(01:00:02):
with commissions being offeredon the MLS and no longer being
offered on the MLS, have youseen commission percentages go
down?

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
No, and that's why Ricky Carruth you know Ricky
Carruth.
So he's a big agent.
I think he's in California buthe's got teams all over the
country, right, he's one ofthose agents that builds a team
in different markets and hemanages a bunch of agents, kind
of like a brokerage, but he doesit nationwide.
But he was talking about howthe buyer agent commission
hasn't changed at all, Likenothing's changed in six months.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
So I was at a meeting up north last week.
I met with a lot of other boardexecs throughout the state and
this is pretty consistent acrossthe state.
Buyer's agents are actuallyreporting, making more.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Than they were before .
I mean, when you think aboutthe dynamic before, you know
seller was offering a buyeragent commission.
It could have been anythingfrom a dollar to you know.
I mean we saw four and a halfpercent being offered to a
buyer's agent Sure.
Um, these agents were saying,well, I was just accepting what
was being offered, you know, and, and sometimes that meant this

(01:01:09):
still was a 1% and this stillwas a half percent, maybe this
one was four, right.
And now these buyers agents,especially the, the buyers
agents that I think haveembraced the changes.
I was, because I'm in thisenvironment where I'm saying to

(01:01:31):
a buyer these are the servicesthat I'm providing, this is the
value I have placed on those and, by the way, I'm good at what I
do and I can negotiate to helpget this fee covered for you in
negotiations of a rep, see, andthey're going forward and
they're actually getting whatthey, what they asked for, right

(01:01:52):
, and I and I think that thathas been super beneficial to the
consumer, because, number one,um, and if I had to put like a,
a title on everything that'shappening the MLS changes, the
settlement, it's transparency,the, the buyers, the consumers
in general, are far moreinformed and because of a lot of

(01:02:12):
these industry changes thatcame in a way that was not ideal
, right, they're empowered tomake more informed decisions,
right.
And I do think that thoseagents who embrace the change,
who operate on a platform oftransparency and I'm going to
give you all the information youneed.

(01:02:34):
They're actually seeing moresuccess and their clients and
customers are far more satisfied.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
From the beginning, like so, if you don't know kind
of the background, SitzerBurnett is a a court case that
happened in missouri whereintentionally in missouri-
intentionally in missouri whichwas the perfect.
It was a perfect field ofthere's anti uh, antitrust, uh.
Law being violated is basicallywhat their stance was is that

(01:03:03):
the sellers did not realize.
Their argument was the sellersdid not realize that the
commission they were offeringthe listing agent half of that
was going to the buyer agent andthat if they would have been
offered a different option, theywould not have given value to
the buyer agent.
My first, my first thought isthe whole case was was uh was

(01:03:27):
really set up from the beginningand the nar didn't do a very
good job of defending themselves?
I would agree with that mythought is that they did a poor
job in the case if you get intothe details of it.
But what they found was acrossthe MLS in Missouri it was 6%
was like 99% of the deals thatagents weren't disclosing
listing agents weren'tdisclosing that they were

(01:03:48):
sharing their commission with abuyer agent.
It's not in the contract therein the MLS where it is here in
Utah it was yes, it was here andhas been for decades, For a
long time.
So there was clarity in thatalready here in Utah but there
wasn't that in Missouri and sothey were able to craft this
case that the agents werecollaborating together to

(01:04:10):
basically trick.
Their thought is that they'retrying to trick the seller into
thinking that was the argumentthat that um, that this
commission was, didn't need tobe paid for and there was a set
standard.
You couldn't sell the house ifit wasn't six percent.
Now there are there is plentyof evidence to where agents
would say if you're not offeringme three percent, I'm not
showing the house.
There is plenty of evidence towhere agents would say if you're

(01:04:30):
not offering me 3%, I'm notshowing the house.
There's plenty of evidence thathappens still to this day
across the board.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
Yeah Right, it happens.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
I know agents specifically that I've had this
conversation with them andthat's their belief.
Right coming out of that is nowthere is, in a weird way, less
public disclosure of thecommission, because now it can't
be marketed on the MLS as thiscommission is being offered to a

(01:04:58):
buyer agent, so there's lesspublic accountability for being
able to see what the commissionis being offered.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Do you really think the public was looking at that
amount as they were going?
I mean, let's be honest.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
I think the general public no.
But the agents were aware ofwhat is the typical commissions
coming in and being offeredright.
So they got to see the lay ofthe land to see what are the
sellers willing to pay for incommission and here in Utah I
had that conversation with thesellers.
I said this is the commission,but this commission is split

(01:05:31):
with.
We're going to give a bonus toa buyer agent to be able to
bring a buyer.
It's an incentive to a buyeragent to bring a buyer buyer's
agent to negotiate against them.

(01:05:51):
I see that it's like wait, I'm aseller and I'm gonna pay an
agent to negotiate against me.
This doesn't make any sense.
So, like the whole thing fromthe beginning, the lawsuit the
lawsuit made less sense to mebecause what ended up falling
out is the solution to where Idon't know is better for the
consumer.
I don't know if it's better ornot.
I think the jury's out iswhether it's better for the
consumer, because at the wholepoint it was is this better for
the consumer, this route?

(01:06:11):
So the solution to what fellout from the case I don't know
is better and I still thinkthere's something that just
doesn't make sense.
We're the only industry thatdoes it this way.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
Yeah, it is kind of bizarre, but it's also proven to
be effective.
I agree with you that NARhandled the case really well.
I think they thought they wereuntouchable and this has shown
them that they're not and theydid a poor job at defending.
Now, with that said and here'san interesting fact, at the time
that that lawsuit was filed,only 13 states had agency

(01:06:46):
representation agreements, utahbeing one of those.
Oh wow.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
I didn't realize it was that few.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
So again, that's why I say having that class action
in Missouri was largelyintentional, because it was in a
state where transparency andmaybe full disclosure may not
have existed on the level thatit has here right.
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
And so how many states just going back to how
many states required an attorneyto review the contracts,
Because I know there's a lot ofstates where an attorney has to
be involved.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
I know states where an attorney has to be involved
for closing as a they're.
They're an attorney state forclosing.
But in terms of where anattorney has to review purchase
contracts, I don't think thereare any.
But like, look at Florida.
Attorney has to review purchasecontracts, I don't think there
are any.
But like, look at Florida.
Florida was was largely atransactional state, so sellers
had agreements with the agent,buyers did not.

(01:07:40):
They were gettingrepresentation but they didn't
have any type of buyer brokeragreement.
That that explained, commission.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
So and duties and things like that Right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
right, that's changing 18 States now and I'm
sure we'll start to see more asbecause because this whole class
action kind of upended theindustry and, um, I mean even
the state of utah, our licensingdivision started looking at the
settlement going well, wait asecond, do our, do we have not

(01:08:06):
that.
They thought they had problems.
But how are these rules nowgoing to affect licensees?
Because it is different right.
The division sets the minimumstandard, the legal standard,
but the realtor organization hasthis ethical standard in these
practices that you have toadhere to.
You know, in terms of whetheror not I think it's effective, I
think it has been effective fora couple of reasons.

(01:08:28):
Number one agents are talkingmore, and this is important
because you mentioned thebooklets from decades ago.
It required agents to becommunicating with other agents
all the time instead of justrelying on a data sheet on the
MLS right.
Number two it is projected overtime to result in $40 billion

(01:08:51):
worth of cost savings to sellersand buyers.
So there's a report out thatsays, because a lot of people
were asking well, is thesettlement going to bring down
home prices?
No, that seller is still goingto ask what he can ask for his
property and get that amount.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
It's ultimately always come down to the net
number.
Yeah, it's always come down tothat, but what's?

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
going to happen is agents.
In order to be competitive,they are going to start you're
going to start seeing commissionrates fluctuate right and then
you're going to start seeingbuyers and sellers actually
having the conversation, whichcould result in savings.
So, for example, if I werewilling to represent a buyer for

(01:09:31):
2% and that seller was willingto have paid me three, I'm now
in a position where I cannegotiate that to benefit my
buyer.
Right, I'm taking the two hewas willing to take.
Pay three, there's a percent onthe table.
Let's ask for your closingcosts to be paid.
So therein lies where consumersare projected to see savings

(01:09:52):
and they are already starting tosee those savings.

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
But commissions haven't come down.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
Not with.
It depends on the agent.
You know I mean there areagents that.
I mean they're full serviceagents.
They are not take photos withtheir iPhone and throw them up
on the MLS.
They're helping you stage,they're getting professional.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Yeah, I'm like $1,500 into photos for one of my
listings right now.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
Right and weeks in preparation trying to help that
seller get their property readyto market right.
And so for them.
They're looking at it from abusiness standpoint that a 3%, a
two and a half, whatever.
I've seen agents charge as highas four and if consumers see
the value in it they'll pay it.
But I think there are still agrouping of agents We've talked

(01:10:38):
about the agents that sell less.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
Yeah.
So this is where I see is thatyou're going to see the quality
agents maintain theircommissions and the part-time
agents probably lose theircommission as a percentage of
what the purchase price is.
They're going to get squeezed.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
Yeah, or you're just going to have agents say I'm
willing to work for less becauseI haven't had a closing in a
while and it's going to resultin savings, ultimately to the
buyer, to the consumer.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
Because the commission is in the negotiation
of the contract.
So if people aren't aware mostpeople are not aware the
commission of what is being paidto the buyer agent is now right
in the purchase contract.
The Utah Association ofRealtors approved contract which
every licensed realtor shouldbe using.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
They're supposed to use it in a residential cell, in
a residential cell.

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):
It's built right into the contract so it is clear to
the buyer and the seller exactlywhat commission is going to be
paid to the buyer agent, and thelisting agent doesn't have to
disclose it because it wasalready negotiated.
It's between the seller and theagent and so that's where
there's this.
It's another piece of thenegotiating from from the
beginning Right, and it's rightthere in front for everybody to

(01:11:50):
see and you can't ignore it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
And since you brought up as a seller paying a buyer's
agent commission to pay abuyer's agent that's negotiating
against them, I had an agent umoffer an interesting
perspective.
What if our market flippedagain and we were back in a
seller's market?
Right, he said to me well,there were people willing to pay

(01:12:14):
over asking is it logical tothink that now a buyer would
offer to pay a seller's agent'sfees as a negotiating tool?
And I think that it's aninteresting concept.
Do I see it happening?
Possibly it depends on whathappens with the market, but I
think that ultimately, theconversation is now being had

(01:12:39):
between all parties and, again,all parties are informed about
how agents are paid and whatthey're getting paid.
And what they're getting paidfor yeah, what they're getting
paid and what they're gettingpaid for.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
Yeah, and so this is where I kind of wanted to
dovetail into this.
This is a good transition,because my feeling is we should
make it more difficult foragents to become licensed agents
.
You're speaking my language.
It's an unpopular opinion forsome reason.
To the agents when you like,talk to like agent groups as in

(01:13:09):
groups.
You know it's this well, you'regonna.
Uh, if you raise the bar ofentry, then my you know 19 year
old son won't be able to get hislicense and start making you
know tens of thousands ofdollars in in transaction
commissions.
Where is the feeling if youlook at it as an industry from
your perspective?
Is there a push to see?

(01:13:30):
Do we raise the bar?
Because I think of realtors getlooked at like used car
salesmen there's thousands ofthose but we get paid like
attorneys in a lot of ways.
Without the formal education,without the formal education
without the bar certifications,without these other rungs of
requirements.
Right, I think financialadvisors like what they have to

(01:13:52):
jump through to be able to dothis, but or even an appraiser.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
I mean, let's be honest, working under a fully
licensed appraiser for anextended period of time just to
gain experience.

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
Yeah, I think the bar should be higher, whether it's
a financial bar, which is aneasy way to just be like oh, you
got to be wealthy to become areal estate agent, or you know
what I mean, or an educationalbar.

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
And don't interpret this to think that I'm trying to
deflect Um as a realtororganization.
Um, your eligibility is alicense right, so I can't, I
can't, deny uh entry into thereal, the realtor organization,
um, unless you don't have alicense right.
So we have to look at thelicensing regulations.
And it's what?

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
120 hours and I saw an agent post a article on st
george news about how she I'mnot, I'll even give you that
hint she did her 120 hours inlike a total of.
She said like a week.
There's less hours total to beable to do the 120 hours.

(01:14:57):
That's how she got her license.
She did it in less time thanthere are days in the week which
I don't even know how she didthat.

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
And you can do it all online, right.
So where's your attention?

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
What did you?

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
actually learn.
When I went through licensingschool, a portion of it could be
done through videos, but therewas a requirement that a certain
amount be done in actual liveclasses.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
Yeah, now again in comparison now they're free, oh
yeah, and in comparison, if youwant a free license, go to RD
academics academics.

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):
If you want a free license, go to arty academics.
I mean it's, it is.
It is frustrating because Imean just a hair technician just
to be licensed to do hair.
You're like three thousandhours, is that that?

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
that may seem high, but I think it's like years I
think I think for barber school,I think it's like 350 hours I'm
pretty sure, like a barberschool of like dedicated yeah,
like or like uh I think it's twosolid months of them going
every single day yeah and youand you, you do you think about
the amount of harm that a realestate agent could pose on a

(01:16:02):
consumer?

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):
you would think that the educational requirement,
that the testing requirement andthen even the maintenance would
be far higher.
I mean 18 hours In 2019,.
When the division came out withtheir mandatory core course you
know that you've got to takeevery renewal cycle I was like,
yes, we're going in a good step.
It's going to be in addition tothat 18.

(01:16:25):
And then they said, no, it'llbe included in the 18.
And I'm like what?
It'll be included.
It'll be included in the 18.
And I'm like what is three morehours of education?
What is that in the in twoyears?

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
21 hours or even 25?
.
So much of it is ethics and andlike logical scenarios.
It's like just representationtype stuff.
Ethics it's not.
It has nothing to do with uhunderstanding contracts Like
very few of it is like beingable to interpret and understand
contracts and I think a part ofthat is because, well, you have
these approved forms, you'resupposed to use these approved
forms.
You just got to know thoseforms.
You don't have to think outsideof that.
And and I don't know exactlyhow to uh educate people more on

(01:17:03):
the job, cause, truthfully,it's a simple job, like my part
of me thinks.
Like well, it is kind of basic,it is kind of easy.
You know, with a with arelatively average IQ, anybody
can do it.
So it's not really it doesn'ttake us a special individual to
do the process.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
I saw a real the other day that said you know, in
elementary school they theysorted you by the high IQ, the
mediocre and then the needs helpstudents.
And he's like and in realestate they put us all together.
Put us all together.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
And so I even think of like okay, the educational
portion and the licensingrequirements, Okay, well, what
do we require people to learnwhen it is a pretty simple
process?
So that's where I lean to.
Maybe it's a financial hurdlein order to get people into it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
Well, and I'll even give you an example of a huge, a
huge disappointment, and I havea love-hate relationship with
the division.
I try to work with them so Ican be a part of.
You know committees andpositive change, which I am
participating in a couple rightnow that I think are going to
really impact the Utah licensees.

(01:18:10):
But last year, when they cameout with the new Rep-C, they
sent out an email and then theydid zero training.
The division Now keep in mind,this is a division form, this
isn't a realtor form.
This is a division form andit's like okay, here you go and
you're not going to explain tothese agents how and when to use
it, why it was written the waythat it was.

(01:18:32):
And the division I think in away, they appreciate that the
realtor organization existsbecause we're out here trying to
provide educational classes.
At my office I hold one class aweek.
You have plenty ofopportunities to stay up to date
, educated, informed on all ofthese things that we've talked

(01:18:53):
about Contracts forms.

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):
I mean, that's how Keller Williams built their
brand around Education you gotto educate them, right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:18:59):
I maybe have 30 agents a week in a class, right
and so without 18 hours justisn't enough, and without some
sort of requirement that holdsthe agents accountable to
learning.
Education becomes the secondthought.

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:19):
You know, makes sense , it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
It'll be interesting to see how the industry shifts.
I think downward pressure oncommissions is going to push a
lot of people out.
I think so too.
As a total number.
This last data is UAR sides peragent.
You can't see it 4.4 sides peragent in the state of Utah in

(01:19:42):
2024.
And that is just above the foursides per agent in 2023.
But that's the lowest goingback in recorded time that we
have 2003.
That's the lowest sides peragent.

Speaker 1 (01:19:58):
The market is certainly saturated with agents.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
Lots of agents but less transactions, just in
general, just less transactions.
So there's going to be thispressure to get agents out of
the industry because I thinkthat's better for consumers.
Having more choices isn'talways a better option when
you're talking thousands ofpeople, because this is the
biggest financial decision mostof these people make, right, and
it does have a big impact onwhen you make a mistake.

(01:20:23):
It's painful, so it is.
It's interesting.
Well, it's five o'clock already.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
It goes by fast Went by fast.

Speaker 2 (01:20:31):
Went by fast.
I want to have you on againbecause we have lots of other
stuff policies, local politicscoming up.
I'm curious about the realestate industry's perspective.
As a realtor, I have my ownopinion, but as I interview
candidates across the county wehave two city council seats.
Mayors across the county areall up for election.
We have two city council seats.
Mayors across the county areall up for election.

(01:20:52):
Looking at the differentinterest groups, they're going
to have different thoughts onwhat they want city council and
mayors because it's mainly landuse policy is what they're
dealing with is the bulk of it.
So I'd be interested theWashington County Board of
Realtors perspective on whatcandidates where's value at.
So let's have you back on,let's talk about that next, but
we hope you guys enjoyed thisepisode.

(01:21:13):
Talking real estate EmilyMerkley.

Speaker 1 (01:21:15):
CEO, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
Washington County Board of Realtors.
We'll see you out there guys.
Have a great week.
Thanks for listening in.
If you enjoyed this episode,please like and subscribe.
Make sure you're following uson all the social media websites
.
We love your support.
We love the dialogue.
We want to continue that going.
Find us at realestate435.com.
We'd love to help you find ahouse here in town or help you

(01:21:38):
get wherever you're going.

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