Episode 7 - Cole Sirucek - Educated Mind, Tough Body

According to Cole Sirucek, you'll fall in love with jiu jitsu if you’re passionate about improving yourself.  And you will most certainly will fall in love with Cole for his determination to change the world, and his pearls of wisdom on health, marriage, parenting and business. 
Cole and his wife created DocDoc, a health-tech startup, after their infant daugther was suddenly diagnosed with a rare liver condition that required a transplant. Since that time DocDoc has grown into one of Asia’s largest doctor discovery and appointment reservation system, empowering thousands of patients to make data-driven healthcare decisions which are safe, transparent and fair.
In 2012, prior to DocDoc, MIT and Harvard graduated Cole and his partner founded Epic MMA Club in Hong Kong, which at the time was Asia’s largest mixed martial arts training center.
Cole has started his jiu jitsu journey since the mid 1990s.  In this episode, he talks about his favourite memories along this journey, how to develop mental fortitude and deal with adversity, the challenges of building a martial arts brand in Asia, and his views on the most important values a parent can instil in their kids.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
[inaudible].
Hey everyone.
I'm JK founder of four stripes.
We're serving martial arts andJujitsu community in Hong Kong
and rest of Asia through uniqueevents, training and networking
opportunities.
Jujitsu is our passion, but it'sthe people that inspire us with
their life stories.
You be the referee.

(00:22):
Welcome to the 4STRIPESCollective podcast.
I'm your host Voon Lee.
Join me as we explore thegrowing, Jujitsu and grappling
community in Hong Kong, Asia,and beyond as our guests share
their stories, inspirations, andhard won lessons on how to live
in adventurous, authentic, andfulfilling life.
Today my guest is cold search.

(00:44):
Cole is an investor andentrepreneur with a background
in private equity and investmentmanagement and degrees from MIT
and Harvard University Colon.
His wife, grace created theirhealth tech startup doc doc.
After their 90 day old daughterwas suddenly diagnosed with a
rare liver condition thatrequired a transplant.
Since that time, doc doc hasgrown into Asia's largest doctor

(01:05):
discovery and appointmentreservation system, empowering
thousands of patients to makedata-driven healthcare
decisions, which are safe,transparent, and fair.
Prior to doc, doc Cole was alsothe cofounder of epic MMA club,
which at the time of its launchin Hong Kong in 2012 was Asia's
largest mixed martial artstraining center.

(01:26):
Coles had a long history ofJujitsu since discovering the
gentle art in the mid 1990s.
We talk about his favoritememories along this journey, how
to develop mental fortitude anddeal with adversity, the
challenges of building a martialarts brand in Asia, and his
views on the most importantvalues apparent can instill in
their kids.
I hope you enjoyed theconversation.

(01:46):
So welcome to the podcast today.
We have, we have

Speaker 2 (01:48):
cold sir, sir.
Cheque welcome to the show.
That's right.
Thanks guys.
Cole, you've actually had, uh, along standing history with the
art of Jujitsu, correct?
Yeah, I mean, I've been inmartial arts since, uh, five
years old, so I'm 43 now, soI've trained martial arts weekly

(02:09):
for, you know, what does that 30I shows up about my math is, but
37 years of my life.
And what did you start off with?
I started off with a tie Kung Fuand then I got into moody tie
and then I got into a uh, gcondo.
Okay.
Uh, and then got into Jujitsu.
Right.
And then kind of didn't reallytie in Jujitsu.

(02:30):
Well I think what's interestingis that you started Jujitsu at a
time cause a lot of people,especially here in Asia, they
kind of have taken up Jujitsulater in their life and their
late twenties or early thirties,you took it up when you are much
younger.
Correct.
Yeah.
Jitsu itself was also muchyounger.
Yeah.
16 I mean you guys don't realizehow much better it's gotten to

(02:50):
learn Jujitsu as a non Brazilianin the last call it decade,
decade, you know, 15 just evennot even 15 years just, yeah,
because I remember being a bluebelt in the early nineties and
there were no black belts thatweren't resilient.
Yeah.
And it wasn't even clear if theywere ever going to allow a non

(03:11):
Brazilian to be a black belt.
Well it wasn't even like theywouldn't even, there were whole
sections of knowledge that theyjust didn't talk about.
We didn't share, well youstarted almost a pre UFC one,
right.
So it would have[inaudible] UFCone as a purely Brazilian art
form.
Oh, it was a mystery thing.
So there was this guy namedPedro Sauer who, yeah, I mean it

(03:32):
was before, it was before hoistGracie and UFC one and a, um,
uh, this guy, Pedro Sauer hadmoved up to Salt Lake and, uh,
he started teaching Jujitsu andI'd done a lot of wrestling in
high school.
Right.
And so, um, some, some friendsof mine said, let's go check
this out.
Yeah.
And we went in there and it wasjust, it was just, you don't

(03:53):
like, you don't realize howeffective Jujitsu actually is.
Um, you forget about it.
Cause you know, when, like whenwe trained Jujitsu, we're
training with other people thathave trained before.
But when you really train withsomeone who's never seen the
art, you don't realize how easyit is, you know, dominant,
dominating and how intimidatingit actually is.
Yes.
Yeah.

(04:14):
Um, did you have that classickind of come to Jesus moment
where you were the wrestler whocame in?
Oh yeah, I thought I was likethat.
I was like, guys submits you andI'm a tough, I'm a tough
wrestler and a young high schoolguy, but in martial arts
forever, let's see how good thisis.
And I just got lit up.
It was like, um, uh, what's hisname?
A M oiler Gracie I think, saidit really wants to said it very

(04:35):
well.
He said, um, I'm a shark.
This is an ocean and you don'teven know how to swim.
Yeah.
And it was like that.
Like it was just, and after thatI was, I was hooked.
Yeah.
I think Brazilian Jujitsu, somuch fun.
And you know, I haven't trainedconsistently the entire time.
Uh, I really hurt my back when Iwas a four stripe blue belt, uh,

(04:55):
training under Helson and, uh, Iruptured my l four l five and I
actually went to, when I went tograduate school, I couldn't sit
for a half hour without gettinga migraine.
Right.
So I literally, for the firstyear of Grad School, ended up
standing in the back of theclassroom, uh, having to take
notes.
I couldn't sit down that longand I thought I'd permanently

(05:16):
injured myself.
Right.
And it was interesting how mybody just over time, my, my, my,
my disks kind of, they, they,they, they, as you get older,
your disks naturally compress alittle and that takes off some
of the pressure and it was thatand a lot of rehab and yeah.
You know, uh, there was thisstudio in Singapore s five years

(05:37):
later called evolve.
Right.
And I walked in and I was thefirst student.
Right.
And they had just opened up andI was, so I remember walking in
there and how skeptical I was.
You had taken a full break fromJujitsu from, for at least five
years.
Did you follow the, uh, thesport at all during that time?
I followed, I didn't follow thesport.
I followed the UFC.
Right.
Pretty.
Yeah.
But I didn't, you know, no, evenno g grappling a really, it was

(06:02):
just starting to really take offat that point.
Yeah.
Um, you know, it was kind ofinteresting.
You told some stories earlier onit, the revisiting them a little
bit, but how you met like, youknow, some fairly interesting
early characters that youtrained a little bit.
Why Hawaii under Helson and youmet BJ Penn.
Oh, BJ Penn was there and Saloand uh, Salo Robero was, was

(06:22):
that was, he was like this youngup and coming black belt
superstar.
Yeah.
And I watched BJ Penn go fromwhite belt and you know, yeah.
A bear Yoshida who actually, youknow, went on.
He was a real phenol, I traineda lot with Barrett actually.
Uh, he was a female or age,right.
Well maybe even a little bityounger, is that right?
And then, yeah, yeah, exactly.
So it was Barrett and it wasBJ's brother and it was myself

(06:46):
and maybe three or four otherguys that were all that all
trained together.
Uh, Barrett was clearly thebest.
Um, but the thing about Barrettwas, it was interesting.
So he lived in the gym and hereally, you know, he took the
judo.
Like, when you talk to g, like areally good judoka about judo,
you'll, they'll say, no, ittakes 10,000 throws.

(07:08):
They'll just practice that samethrow over and over and they'll
just drill it and drill it.
And really, you don't see thathappening as much in Jujitsu
bare.
It was one of those guys thatwould do that.
So you embraced the wholedrilling and he would take, he
would take a move, he'd watch iton a watch, a video.
Cause this was a time when theywere, they weren't really
sharing, you know, it wasn'tlike Helson was, you know,
openly sharing all the, hisintimate secrets.
Right.

(07:28):
And so he went there, theirearliest videos, you know, he
would watch these videos and,and he would sit in there and he
would just drill for six hours,literally six hours.
He'd just sit with a couple ofguys and just drill, drill,
drill, drill, drill.
And he got phenomenal reallyquickly and everyone kind of
thought he was the phenom inHawaii.
And then, uh, um, BJ's olderbrother, uh, you know, she

(07:52):
started talking about, hey, youknow, my brother is a really
good athlete and he's trainingand uh, wrestling.
And I don't remember, I was likesaying it was like San Diego
state or, or it was some statecollege, but it wasn't like it
wasn't a big wrestling program.
Right.
And he'd done that and then allof a sudden he was training with
health and he came out and hewas just really tough white
belt.
I remember rolling with him andthen, um, he came back like

(08:14):
three or four months later andhe was a blue belt and basically
at that point nobody in the gymcould pass this card.
Like it was just kind of mindboggling how quickly he got that
good news.
This is a gym full of somereally good people.
And what sort of insight did youhave as to how he did it?
Was it just that he was just aphysically of a phenom or with

(08:37):
assumptions about any learningprocess?
I wish I could tell you thatthere was a lot.
I actually think that, you know,his brother and I talked about
this.
I think he, um, I think he coulddo a move 10 times, 15 times and
just own it.
Just an intuitive fields ownedit for what it should look like,

(08:58):
just what it, what it shouldlook like, how it fit in with
the timing was, you know, somuch at Jujitsu's actually
timing.
Yeah.
It's that feel of the push andthe pull and the weighing and
the unwavering and the, and its,that was way more important than
strength.
And I think he had an, an anjust an, an inherent feel for
that, that even to this day Istill have absolutely.

(09:20):
You know, I still do verypoorly.
Yeah.
You know, I just think he hadthat.
And it's an interesting, I meanit's an interesting contrast
even just in a gym where you hada guy like Barry Yoshida who
embraced the idea that, youknow, I need to drill this
thousands of times.
And once I do that I've got amaster it.
And then on the other side ofthe spectrum, you have someone
who just has tuition.

(09:41):
Barrett trained Jujitsu as hardand as long and as consistent as
anybody in the world.
Like that guy was just in thegym always.
And what I understand after Ileft why's he didn't stop.
Yeah.
He left Helson sure.
And he went over and trainedwith a, um, Egan and ensign
annoy.
Yes.
Um, and uh, but my, my, myunderstanding is he never slowed
down.
But look at what, look, lookwhat BJ did.

(10:01):
BJ went from no name to thisgood white belt to this blue
belt that was just had thisphenomenal guard to all the
sudden he's a purple belt andhe's, he was winning big
tournaments in Hawaii, even inthe open division.
And, and that was, there weresome really good people in that.
And then like a year later itwas a brown belt.
And then a year later he got hisblack belt the day of the Mundey

(10:24):
halls and he won the tournament.
I mean, and he was the firstAmerican.
And so you can get good in theirhearts, but there are a lot of
examples of this.
Actually I think it took, whatwas it, Marcella Garcia?
I heard and I don't rememberremember the exact, but I heard
he got his black belt in likethree years.
I think.
I also heard Kaia Tara, TyraTerrell's also yours just got it

(10:46):
incredibly quickly.
And so I think some peopleabsorb knowledge faster.
Yeah.
I don't think there's any, anymystery there.
They're just better athletes andbetter timing and they absorb
knowledge faster, betterneuromuscular monkey see monkey
do.
Have you found any particularapproach to learning that you
think uh, is optimal when itcomes to kind of learning

(11:09):
Jujitsu?
Yeah, I think so.
Um, the best, I've been reallyfortunate.
I've had some really goodinstructors.
The best instructors startreally small with you and they
play really small game with youand they just, you know, it's
like we're going to do closeguard two on one grip and that's

(11:31):
all we're going to do today foran hour and just work on two on
one, two on one.
How do you do two on one and,and then after you get all
better at that, then they moveto another piece and another
piece and another piece untilyou get to a position.
And then they let you just drillthat for awhile and play with
it.
And then they come back to youand they start from that
foundation.
Like you've got to startsomewhere.

(11:51):
Yeah.
You've got to start someposition and then some little
game inside that position andthen build.
Yeah.
Right.
And just keep coming back tothat and going through that
strain.
If you don't do that, I thinkJujitsu, it's really easy to
develop islands of knowledge.
Yeah.
Right.
And where you want to have is anintegrated knowledge graph.
And do you feel like that'stranslated into how you approach

(12:13):
learning?
I guess many new subjects thatyou've obviously encountered
different things as[inaudible]?
It's interesting.
I'm not so much in that regard,but in terms of, in terms of
resilience and grit, Jujitsu'sreally helped me.
Like I was always kind of astubborn asshole.
Like I was kind of born thatway.

(12:34):
Sure.
But my ability to endure painand call it normal yeah.
Was definitely increased becauseof Jujitsu.
You know, like Jujitsu.
Like now someone gets me in themountain, they're really
grinding on me.
I'm like, that's kind of normal.
You know, I'm not freaked out byit.
Sure.
And so if you notice, if youtrain a lot of Jujitsu, nothing

(12:55):
actually, the dramatic peakskind of vanish in your life.
And that's lovely.
Yeah.
That's lovely.
It's never that bad, you know,if that makes any sense.
No, it makes a ton of sense.
And knowing what I know aboutyou, cause you've also done some
ultra marathon events before inthe past that you're the type of
personality that kind of seeksout perhaps, uh, the grind and

(13:20):
bracing.
So, okay.
That's a different, so a bigpart of my life is my wife
throwing my ass off a cliff andthen in me building a parachute
on the way down.
Sure.
So the ultra marathon, so thatwas all her, oh, she took part
in it as well.
I, Ya know, didn't just takepart in it.
Yeah.
So here's actually where youshould take a little sidebar and

(13:41):
describe a little bit about yourwife.
So grace is, I'm the most honestassessment of her and my
relationship is I want tostrangle her on a regular basis.
And yet if I was to live athousand lifetimes, I'd marry
the same woman.

(14:02):
Sure.
So it's a, you know, it's a,it's a, you're any high quality
marriage is complex.
Sure.
Like it has to be, right.
I don't know how else todescribe that, that the nature
of that relationship in the,it's just complex.
And so here's an example of mewanting to strangle my wife and
yet loving her to death.
So she was on this panel is kindof a woman leadership panel

(14:23):
thing and it was, there was awoman who had done the goat, the
, uh, uh, Sahara desert or aGobi desert, um, March, yes.
250 kilometer foot race acrossthe Gobi desert.
And, uh, and so grace wastalking about, um, her time at
my wife went to West Point inthe u s not United States
military academy.

(14:43):
And, and she, you know, her bigsport there was judo and she was
quite accomplished in it.
She was a four time allAmerican.
Yeah, she was very, yeah, shewas, was accomplished.
And, and um, so she was talkingabout that, that was her speak
on the panel and this otherwoman was talking about this
race.
And apparently grace comes homewhen we're lying in bed and
grace says, Cole, you shouldhave seen this race.

(15:04):
She had heard about it.
I mean it was difficult and shewanted to quit, but she made it
through.
And at this point I'm justengaged with my wife and, and
grace is like, and you know, Iknow that if we could make it
through a race like that, thatthat's a good test for us being
able to make it through life.
And I'm like, honey.
Yeah, you're right.
I hear your point.
Aha.
Aha.
I'm going to bed now.

(15:25):
But that was a good talk and Ihad no idea cause I'm an
outdoors man.
I grew up hiking in Idaho and soI know a lot about the outdoors.
Uh, 250 kilometer foot ratesacross the Gobi desert is tough.
Amy Is gnarly writers.
It's really like, it's not, it'sclearly people that are doing
that are on the spectrum, as wewere saying earlier.
Well, I think people should alsounderstand that this is not your

(15:46):
typical foot race either.
This is a self sufficient footrace.
So you actually have to carryall your own food, everything,
everything, everything or yourmedical care plan, but water,
everything but water in a tent.
That's right.
That's right.
So, so, uh, the next day she'sstill talking about this race
and I'm like, that's reallyinteresting, grace.
You know?

(16:07):
Uh, I know I'm happy to learnmore about it and, and be
supportive.
And, and so then she sends me,she gets these videos, she sends
out National Geographic and onthis big expedited they on the
race, we're watching it andthere's these big strong grown
men and they're sitting on theside crying and giving up.
And I'm like, grace, you realizehow gnarly this is?
And she's like, yeah, yeah.

(16:27):
You know, maybe it is too.
And Harley.
I'm like, okay, good.
So then I'm a week later, I'msitting at work and I get this
bill, uh, I've learned on mycredit card and she's just spent
five,$10,000 to enroll us bothin the race and pay for it.
And, and she just sends me theemail of the enrollment and she

(16:49):
didn't even tell me what itcosts, but I get it on my text
and she says, Cole, if we canmake it through this, then I
think we can get married.
Sure.
This is a good sign that we canmake it through life together.
Some people go, some people whoare part of our church go to
their pastor and say, I havelike a couples therapy
counseling.
And you guys went for a, youknow, 250 Columbia amateur march

(17:12):
through the, so she says to me,you've got to get us through
this.
Sure.
Just, that's it.
You got to get us through us.
Now we're doing it.
You've got to get us through it.
Yeah.
So I totally geek out, kind oflike, you're, uh, you're
wonderful set up here and on themicrophones.
I mean, I am like, I got to justgeek out on everything.
So I'm reading everything I canabout adventure racing and, and
training.
And we go there and we'retotally ready.
Yeah.
And the day before we go, one ofthe most important things to

(17:34):
avoid blisters is having yourfeet like a baby's button.
There can be no dry skin.
So you really got to keep yourfeet real smooth so there's no
friction in your socks.
So I'm going into manicure inthe, the, the woman, the woman
doing the manicure startslaughing cause they never had a
man get a manicure or a not amanicure or pedicure, pedicure.
And, um, and she's like, wegotta do something with your

(17:58):
toes.
And so we till we paint my toes,like checkered flags, right?
That's the, and, and so we getinto the race.
And about day three, I stub mytoe on a rock really hard and my
little toe, and I'm just limpinginto the med tent that night.
And I take off my shoe and mytoes purple and I'm just, and I,

(18:20):
and the keep the toenails or nowill, no, no, they did it.
Those, those take time to comeoff.
They don't just come off and, no, no, they didn't Yank it off.
But yeah, and the, the, the, um,doctor says toenails are cute.
Yeah.
And he said, but you know, yousee, I don't have any toenail
Polish remover out here in thedesert, so I can't tell.

(18:40):
And he said, I think you brokeyour toe.
And he said, so I've got goodnews and bad news.
And I go, what's that?
And he said, the good news,you're going to be fine.
The bad news is it's gonna hurtlike hell for the rest of the
race.
I'll never forget the next wegot on the long day of the race.
I'm out there and the date, thefirst day of the race, we're all

(19:01):
sleeping in this tent.
And all these, um, uh, adventureracers are, uh, are, are sitting
there talking about, uh, they're, they've all done like four or
five iron man or other races.
And we're gracing, are feelingreally, really, uh, undergone or
uh, and sure they're talkingabout going on the blurb.
I go, what's that?
You know, you just kind of startcrying and you just, and he was,

(19:25):
you know, and they're alltalking about their different
experiences where they have goneon the blurb, you know, they're
in the run of the, the, the, thelast half of the iron man run
and they just break down andtrying not to quit.
And they call it the blub.
So I'm on my long march and justas the sun's going down and we
still have another six or eighthours of high, I mean more than
that, we got in at 4:00 AM thatday.

(19:45):
So yeah.
So we still have a long way togo and all of a sudden I start
going,

Speaker 1 (19:52):
cause I'm not quitting.
Yeah, you'll have to kill me toget you to quit.
But there I was, whimpering andgrace is like toughen up.
I'm trying doing it as a couple.
Yeah, he's incredibly difficult.
I uh, cause I did, I did thesame race as you.
I did it in Nepal, but I didteam, I did a dozen of Paul

(20:13):
race.
You did the race and the planetNepal racing the planet.
Oh cool.
And what did you think of it?
Did you enjoy that?
I loved it.
Yeah.
I love to for all the samereasons that you love it now
when you look back.
Yeah.
But when you're doing it, yeah,it's a different thing.
Did you go on the blurb?
So every race has got its own

Speaker 2 (20:32):
complications.
Yeah.
Ours was that I, end of day one,25% of the camp had caught a
viral infection of the stomach.
So that's throwing up people.
It was coming up every whichway.
Oh, I bet.
By Day two

Speaker 1 (20:48):
and day three and day four, by the time it came to day
four, about 60% of the camp hadit one way or another.
And Oh Sophie, I bet dehydrationwas just so unbelievably hard to
keep hydrated in that situation.
I was kind of lucky in a way,and I caught it day one.
So by the end of day one I kindof basically I threw up
everything that I had.

(21:09):
And Day two I had y went on withbasically no food in my stock.
So Day two was the hardest, butby the time day three came
around, I thought I was gettingbetter.
The worst parts were the guyswho were catching it at the end
of the day long door than Daveon the Long March, I had a
friend who basically went inevery single field across Nepal

(21:29):
for tea.
Yeah.
Maybe 17 hours every hour.
That was quite difficult.
But he got through, he gotthrough it and it's amazing to
see what people kind of getthrough.
It really truly is.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
So the second time I cried on the Gobi desert, um, it
was uh, about 1:00 PM on thelong day.
Yeah.
And this end, and it was, I meanit was like 48 degrees Celsius.
It was just baking.
It was so hot outside.
Your eyeballs hurt.
Yeah.
And, uh, I see this Japanesewoman and this Japanese guy, and

(22:01):
I think they're husband, wifecouple.
And the Japanese man isscreaming at her.
He's just, and I don't know whathe says, can't speak Japanese,
but[inaudible] and he's justgoing out here and just going at
her and just going at her andshe's going, no, just keeping
the walking now.
And I realized, cause gracespeaks a little bit, he's trying
to get her to quit.

(22:23):
Oh sure.
Because she is in her wouldsandals.
Oh right.
Because her feet aren't fittingand they still got 30 miles to
go that day.
30 miles.
Yeah.
Right.
And it's not, and she won'tquit.
Yeah.
And it was so beautiful that Ijust started crying and I'll be
damned.

(22:43):
She finished.
Yes.
I, I 7:00 AM we got in at 4:00AM and by the time I was kind of
just kind of relaxing to kind ofget to sleep was like seven ish.
I'll be damned.
They came across the line, herand her, her and her wooden
sandals.
Yeah.
And that's that aspect of humannature.
That's

Speaker 1 (23:03):
part of why Brazilian Jujitsu.
So fun too.
Yeah.
What do you think of that, thatis about it.
You think Jujitsu.
Do you think Jujitsu attractspeople who are naturally
predisposed to that, this idea,that ideal of seeking out, you
know, so Hayne and grit andresilience?
Or do you think it actuallyhelps build that capacity in
people to both?

Speaker 2 (23:23):
I think both.
Um, I think one of the mostimportant things for happiness.
I gave this Ted speech aboutthis, um, about why martial art,
why I love martial arts so much.
Um, martial arts makes youhappy.
Yeah.
The community is a big deal.
Yep.
The community being aroundpeople and communing with them

(23:46):
in a way that isn't about moneyand isn't about power and isn't
about just how awful we can beto one another.
It's just about, it's like ahigh end form of salsa dancing.
Sure.
I think that is really, I thinkthat's what we grew up, we, we
evolve to do as animals.
Like if you watch, I have three,I have English bulldogs and

(24:08):
when, and when you watch themplay they role.
Yeah.
You know, they w the, the littleone rolls to garden's pushing
off with his feet and that, youknow what I mean?
And then the big ones trying tocome in and bite him in the
neck.
I mean they're not actually,they're just playing.
Sure.
I think we as, as a species weredesigned to roll around and
wrestle.
Yeah.
I think we were just, we werebuilt for that.
We were built to run, we werebuilt to wrestle.

(24:30):
We were built to be active in acommunal way.
You never meant or do you thinkwe're also built, cause one of
the interesting things thatyou're seeing nowadays obviously
is um, kind of like the rise of,you know, various symptoms like
depression, you know,alienation, isolation, obviously
a bunch of things like socialmedia doesn't really help with

(24:51):
that.
But also the fact that we livein a time where things are way
easier than they've ever been.
Right.
And so coming back to this idea,do you think humans need to
search out, you know, difficultchallenges?
Do you think that that is whatkind of helped provide?
So, I mean a really honestobservation about myself, I have

(25:13):
more of everything than I'llever need.
Yeah.
And yet I spend a significantportion of my day feeling
desperate to make somethinghappen.
Yeah.
I mean, how messed up is that?
Well, I think I have more ofeverything.
I, my fridge has never empty.
Yeah.
I never don't have access tomedical care.

(25:35):
My daughter's never, my daughterdoesn't never, it never doesn't
have access to education.
Sure.
Right.
I don't worry about power or, orI don't have everything or
clothing or shelter from theelements.
I have everything.
I have an excess of everything.
Yeah.
And yet because people, I thinkdeal, I think that the issue
around that as much as anythingelse is that as we aggregate

(25:58):
into larger communities, itbecomes harder to find
significance.
Yes.
I mean for me to be the bestperson in La in Jujitsu makes me
one of the best in the entireplanet.
For me to be amazingly good atJujitsu and Stanley, Idaho, it's
relatively easy.
Sure.
So as our tribes get larger,yeah, we have a lot less

(26:19):
significance.
Cause we're always comparingourselves to one another.
Yeah.
You look at sort of evolutionarybiology and you know, I guess
the idea that we're socialprimates, we're evolved to
basically a dubby and basicallysmall groups, tribes of up to a
hundred 150 people and anythingbeyond that is basically
something that's kind of beyondwhat our psychological limits

(26:41):
are adapted to.
Right.
Your leadership

Speaker 1 (26:44):
structures at that point you start getting real
weird.
There's that one 52 is just theability to kind of define, you
know, what is your contributionto the tribe?
What do you derive your ownpersonal identity and meaning
from your specific contributionwithin kind of like a hundred
150 people.
It can be quite clear, right?
Larger than that.
Then it becomes, you know, muchmore difficult to really

(27:07):
ascertain.
And I think that's whatcontributes to it.
A lot of this, as you say, youknow, we have everything and yet
people still have thatevolutionary fight or flight
response.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, we are not, uh,wanting for food and we're not
under threat from predators.
But at the same time, if youactually look at kind of what
day two daily interactionforward is all levels, they

(27:28):
don't seem to reflect that.
Yeah.
They just spike all the timebecause I think we're adapted to
essentially, you know, threatresponse.
That's so that's

Speaker 2 (27:38):
evolutions bitch.
Yeah, right.
It's always pushing us to bemore right.
And, and so, uh, yeah, I thinkthat's a,

Speaker 1 (27:50):
um, I think it's complicated and I think it's
interesting like coming back toyour idea that you said about
community, right?
Because I think part of, uh,what's interesting about your
background too was you moved toAsia.
Uh, you are very successfulinvestor.
You're working with Tamasic, butthe, you also were kind of a
pioneer in kind of developing,you know, the idea behind mixed

(28:12):
martial arts and Jujitsu byintroducing, at least in Hong
Kong, uh, epic MMA, which iskind of like the first major, I
guess, premium.
Um, how would you define it?

Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, no, no, I look, I shouldn't, I'm with you.
I, that was the thought process.
I mean, I definitely, um, I feellike I got a lot of, I, I still
to this day feel like I havesome unfinished business there.
Sure.
Um, what did you see the initialopportunity was there and what
was the market like buddy?
I know.
Okay.
So with the exception of onetype of person, there's one type

(28:46):
of per, there's actually twotypes of people that really just
cannot benefit or enjoy Jujitsu.
The people that are just don'tlike are scared of anybody near
them.
I kind of just don't get nearme, don't touch me, don't hold
me, don't let phobes just thatif you have a lot of that, you
can't do Jujitsu, just nevergonna work.
And then the other ones are theones.

(29:07):
And these guys can sometimeswork it out, but most often not
the ones that have an ego that'sso big that they can't make
themselves small to beginlearning.
Right?
So, so those are the twoeveryone else that I've ever
seen that gets into Jujitsu,loves it.
And, and I think that in theenvironment, I, my feel is that
the environment in Singapore and, and just the actually all over

(29:30):
Asia but, but particularly inthe more developed markets,
Singapore, Malaysia, Shanghai,Beijing, um, there was a, just a
complete and utter absence, aphysicality in there in people's
lives.
They didn't really have a lot ofsports that they did, maybe a
little basketball.
Sure.
But, and so I really thoughtthere was a great market because

(29:50):
martial arts has been in theblood out here for a very long
time.
Yeah.
And, um, my thought processaround epic was that,

Speaker 3 (30:02):
right.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
My thought process around epic was launching a
world class gym with that kindof footfall.
And that's the most that thatstreet we were on where we were,
has more traffic than any otherplace in the world on a daily
basis.
Absolutely true.
And so with that kind offootfall, a gym light that would
transform a lot of lives, do alot of good for the world, I

(30:25):
want to be a lot of fun as youput it in.
Put it in context because Iguess people in Asia understand
like in Hong Kong, this isbasically smack dab in the
middle of the central businessdistrict, literally in the
middle of central.
Yeah.
That would be equivalent.
The most central place in mostcentral place in the most
central central businessdistrict.
That would be equivalent ofwhat?
In New York or in London forexample.

(30:46):
Oh, it would be like, it wouldbe like in Times Square.
Yeah.
It would be like, you know,right on the corner of Time
Square.
Sure.
It would be.
Um, right in the, I mean, I'mjust trying to, I don't know
London that well, but it wouldbe probably right in the heart
of Dilley or Piccadilly.
It'd be right.
It would be right at PiccadillySquare.
Yeah.
Or Piccadilly Circle.
Yes.
It's what it is.

(31:07):
I mean, it would be right thereon the corner there.
Um, yeah, no, it was just, Imean, there in lies, I still to
this, to this day, I mean, youknow, epic had a very
unfortunate ending and, and Iwasn't there for the end of it.
Um, my, my daughter needed a, atransplant, uh, about a year
into owning about a year and ahalf into launching epic.

(31:29):
Um, but she got sick about alittle, even under a year of
launching epic and um, so that,that required me to kind of make
a, a graceful exit.
Sure.
But, um, that business model,

Speaker 3 (31:42):
yeah.
Uh, yeah,

Speaker 2 (31:44):
it had big potential.
Um, I think the issue there and,and I think the thing that, that
we should have done better, ifyou're going to go as big in the
flagship as we did, we needed tobe ready to roll out six or
seven more next year becausethat flagship place was never
going to be super profitable.

(32:05):
Yeah.
Um, none of the flagship storesin any piece of real estate like
that are sure.
But it did a tremendous amountto build the brand, uh, for the
gym.
And it did a tremendous amountto build the sport in the, in,
in, in this part of the world.
We did a tremendous amount,actually.
I know you have sort of mixedfeelings about how it ended, but
certainly from my perspective,like I know for a fact that it

(32:26):
certainly changed a lot ofpeople's lives as well.
Introducing Jujitsu to, youknow, a whole community of
people, let's say we're in HongKong in particular would be kind
of professionals, you know,people as you say, who are
lacking physicality and the fromit and you know, really opened
the doors for, for them toactually kind of embrace
something as well at that time.

(32:46):
Kind of esoteric is that, well,you know what if you, um, life
is, so, I'm 43 years old and I'mcontinually enamored with how
short life really is.
Sure.
You got a lot.
If you're going to be anentrepreneur, only do stuff
that's cool.
Yeah.
Only, I mean there's, life isway too short to be like, you

(33:07):
know, what do you do?
I sell him sixteens yeah.
Or I sell grenades or I just,I'm a merchant of death.
Yes.
Life is too short and I, everybusiness is difficult.
Yes.
So life is too short to not dothings that make a huge impact.
And I agree with you, by theway, every time I go to Hong
Kong, I can't walk down thestreet at all without seeing
lots of people that are likecoal man.

(33:28):
That place was state.
Dia Changed my life and theirtraining and that's cool.
And I feel like that made a hugeimpact and I'm super proud of
what was built there.
I would like to have, um, Iwould, yeah, I just would like
to have seen it to its fruitionand its potential and that's
okay.
You know what guys, noteverything works.
Life is early.
I think you've like, you'rebased in Singapore now and I

(33:50):
think you ever probably seeingthat potential being fulfilled
by a number of different, um,you know, companies and gyms out
there that seems like it reallyis taking a big deal.
I mean the fact that, you know,the UFC is opening performance
institute and Shanghai onechampionship is doing the work
that it's doing there.
It definitely that you are early, uh, and basically cottoned on

(34:12):
to a trend that you're actuallyseeing really accelerated right
now.
Yeah, I think so too.
I, that's one of the hardestthing about being an
entrepreneur is not seeing areally good value proposition.
It's timing it correctly.
Yeah.
And I think we went really big.
Yeah.
So, um, yeah.
W what did they say?
A M

Speaker 3 (34:34):
uh,

Speaker 2 (34:34):
restraint is the best part of Valor, right?
Or, or what, how does, how doesthat quote go?
It's not, maybe if it's notrestraint, it's the, um, I have
to go back and look, but it's,it's it, the ability to take a
deep breath and do things in aprudent way, yes.
Is really important.
I think we went to big with epicright out of the gate.
Sure.
I think that was the fundamentalissue.

(34:56):
But look, it left an indeliblemark on, on fitness and mixed
martial arts in, in Asia.
Yeah.
20 years from now, people willstill know who epic was.
I'm sure that's true.
Right.
So, so, yeah, I think it wascool.
Uh, I think it was cool.
And I, and I don't regretanything that we did there.
Yes.
Um, I think it was cool.

(35:16):
Well, you've got a veryinteresting entrepreneurship
journey as well because the nextstep as you kind of alluded to
earlier on, it was a lot morepersonal and kind of led to kind
of what you're doing right now.
Yeah.
They're happy to speak a littlebit more about that.
Yeah, sure.
So, um, so I was in epic, uh,and uh, um, my daughter was a a
hundred days old and uh, uh, wewere taking her in to do a

(35:40):
checkup and I was actuallylaunching a hedge fund at the
time, uh, with another partner.
And um, my, uh, I just come backfrom London and, uh, Ra.
Yeah, this is, this is just sognarly.
Um, and I take her in to do a, acheckup this a hundred day
checkup and the, the, the, thepediatrician says, Cole, she's

(36:01):
jaundice.
Since she shouldn't be jaundice,I go, okay, you need to put her
into the blue light again.
Like, I didn't think anything ofit, but I, I could, I just, my,
my spider sense is Kinda saidsomething.
He's a little too serious aboutthis.
And he says, I want you to go tothe hospital right now and I
want you to go get an ultrasounddone.
And so I go over there and I'mholding my daughter and my
daughter literally fit from knowthe base of my wrist to my

(36:24):
forearm, to my elbow.
That's how small she was.
And I'm holding her at the time.
And the nurses doing the, as thek y jelly over on her stomach
and they're doing the ultrasoundwith the wand and she's cooing
and then all of a sudden thenurse starts crying.
And I'm like, Oh shit.
Not a great sign.
No.
And she's like, Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.

(36:44):
I'm sorry.
And she's just crying and youknow, she cleans up Aranda and I
walk out of the room and shejust burst into tears and I'm
like, oh my God.
So the next thing you know, I'min this tiny room with no
windows.
I'm surrounded by surgeons anduh, they tell me that, um, my
daughter's liver is failing andwe need to immediately do this
procedure.
It's a huge operation called a[inaudible] operation.

(37:06):
They basically cut the bottom20% of the liver and they take a
piece of her small intestine andthey build a little trough.
And the idea is maybe that willsave the liver to start draining
bile.
This is a huge deal.
Yeah.
And it has about less than a0.1% success rate.
Right.
Meaning that it almost alwaysfails.
It's just buys you a littletime.

(37:26):
Right?
So for liver transplant, sure.
Well, she's too young to have aliver transplant.
No one's ever had one at thatage.
And um, so I thought she wastotally healthy when I woke,
when I came, when I, this thatmorning and by lunch I'm being
told that her life has changedforever.
Right.
And so I'm asking the doctors,how many times have you done

(37:49):
this?
And the doctor says, I'm thehead of the department.
I'm good at my job.
I say, White, the answer, whatis this gonna cost?
And he says, uh, are youinsured?
And I say, yeah.
He says, don't worry, it's goingto be really expensive.
I'm like, again, not exactly.
I was looking for a little morefeedback and I say, you know,

(38:09):
um, what are the longtermconsequences of this?
And the guy looks at me and hesays, you don't have a choice.
We got to do it tomorrow.
Like that is the ultimate innegative consumer experience.
Yeah.
Complete absence of empowerment.
Complete a, I felt sovulnerable.
And then to add injury to insult, um, so grace being the smarter
of the two of us called a agentleman that was one of the

(38:33):
top pediatric cardiac surgeonsin, he is a friend of ours.
We had for the Gobi DesertMarch, we'd raised a bunch of
money from Tomasic and Medtronicand we launched the first
pediatric cardiac surgery unitin Vietnam.
Ah, okay.
And so we took a bunch ofsurgeons from Singapore up there
to train the surgeons in uh, in,uh, Vietnam.
And, uh, it was a huge, westarted this, we started a

(38:55):
process and an exchange and thatit even goes on today and it's
been hugely successful in termsof like, you know, now
[inaudible] that now that centeris a center in Vietnam where all
the kids go, that then theoutcomes are really good and
we're really proud of it.
And Yeah.
So the gentleman, the doctor'sname was Dr Shanker and we
called him and said, hey, thisis going on.
And he said, okay, I'll be rightover.

(39:15):
He literally comes running overand scrubs and he puts his arms
around his, the doctors in theroom weren't real happy and he
came, put his arms around us andsaid, okay, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Walks the side of the room, thedoor shuts.
I'll never forget what he said.
Cole, don't let anybody in thatroom touch your daughter.
They're really not qualified.

(39:36):
Yeah.
This is very, very, veryprecarious situation.
Yeah.
We got to do a global search andfind the right people.
Yeah.
And so, and it turned out that,that we needed to do this
procedure promptly measured inweeks.
We didn't have to do it measuredin hours.
Yeah.
So they kind of gave you kindof, oh, straight up, straight up
used car salesman, got to do itnow, got buy now, buy now, buy

(39:58):
now.
Buy Now.
Right.
I couldn't believe it.
And I felt so horrified by that.
And then, so long story short,um, we did this major search,
uh, you know, Sloan SloanKettering and Stanford and the
Mayo Clinic and Bostonchildren's and Yusef, and like
all these places in the u swhich I forgot who the right

(40:18):
teams were.
And the chairman of surgery atStanford said, actually, the
highest volume guys in the worldare in Japan for, for pediatric
live liver transplants.
They have a higher higherincidents of biliary Atresia.
Their, the procedure wasinvented there.
I think that's where I'd go ifit was me.
Yeah.
And you're already in that partof the world.
Yeah.
So we found, Dr Shankerintroduced me to the founder of

(40:39):
the live liver transplant, theinventor of the procedure.
And, um, we flew to Kobe, Japanand we did the first procedure.
It failed that it always failsbasically.
And then about a month later wedid the transplant and I was the
donor.
Yup.
So we flew the team in fromJapan to Singapore to actually
do the procedure.
Yeah.
Here's the nut of this and thisis why we started doc doc when

(41:02):
this was all done.
So the team that we brought inwas head and shoulders above
anybody else.
You know, this guy literallywritten the textbook on
pediatric level, on live livertransplants in Japanese.
They translated into English asthe book they used everywhere.
Sure.
He was the highest volume.
He stayed next to my daughter'sbed for two weeks in the ICU.

(41:23):
Yeah.
He wouldn't let it, he wouldn'tlet a nurse, anybody give her
any medication that he didn'tfirst check.
That's how that's, I mean I feltlike I was walking into a sword
fight with Yoda.
Yeah.
You as my partner.
Yeah.
Like I had the guy, thank God.
And at the end of this, thetotal bill was 60% cheaper than

(41:43):
what the team in Singapore atthe other team had won.
It really wasn't even close.
Wow.
And it was at that point that Irealized that there is such an
asymmetry of information inhealthcare that this is
massively impacted everyone'slife, you know?
And so my wife and I decided tostart doc doc, and that's where
we're, we're, you know, theworld's first patient
empowerment company.
Right.
And we partner with insurancecompanies to create this

(42:05):
repository of medicalinformation and this discovery
engine that matches patients anddoctors, um, based on the
patient's unique needs and thedoctor's unique expertise.
Yeah.
And, uh, um, yeah, I mean, everyjourney is a hard journey, but
I'm real proud of what we'redoing in that space.
We've legitimately are changingthe world.
I think it's incredible.
I think it seems, I mean, a lotof what you described about that

(42:28):
situation is kind of everyone'sworst nightmare, a parent's
worst nightmare.
Right.
And, you know, uh, the aspect ofhaving to make decision making
under duress without anyinformation, without any
information.
Uh, I, it's incredible whatyou're doing.
We've talked dog, how manydoctors are there now on the
platform?
23,000.
23,000.

(42:49):
That's pretty amazing.
It's where, I mean, look, it's abuilding anything in, in, in
healthcare is, and dealing withinsurance as nightmarish.
Yeah.
Um, and that's why you gotta beproud of what you're doing.
It's so important.
Like it's so important to bedoing things that you're proud
of.
Yeah.
If you're not proud of theproduct you're selling, yes.
Your life takes on a verycynical and nihilistic cue.

(43:13):
Yes.
And I, I just think that that'snot worth any amount of money.
I think what's interesting aboutdoc doc too is this
acknowledgement that there arepeople who are, there are
essentially, there are levels totwo games, right.
And there are people who aretruly masters of what they do,
right?
Oh yeah.
Just like Jujitsu, just like youJitsu.
It's like, so, okay.

(43:34):
I'm sorry.
Please go ahead.
So, um, I, this is a good one.
So, uh, I ponder this one a lot.
So do you know how Aristotledefines success?
No.
I, these are the exact, as isthe exact definition, operating
in one's core competency in alife that affords one scope.

(43:54):
So if you, if you unpack thatoperating in one's core
competency.
So for Mike Tyson, it was a lefthook in a life that affords one
scope because he could do thatleft hook so well he could do
anything else.
He could drive any car you want.
He could fly anywhere.
He could travel in where hecould eat anything, he can meet
anybody, right?
So if you do one thing reallywell with exceptional mastery

(44:18):
and the world values that you'resuccessful.
And I think in the surgeryworld, just like in, in, in PR
Demean surgeons are athletes.
Yeah.
Right.
They just operated a veryprecise scale.
Sure.
So is there a difference betweengolfers on the PGA?
I mean, they're all PGAcertified, quote unquote.
Yeah.
But of course there's adifference.

(44:40):
And if your, you know, if it'syour daughter, you want tiger
woods in the tee box.
Yeah.
You don't want a PGA certifiedpro.
Yeah.
There's a difference.
And that's what doc doc's about.
Sure.
But this, this idea ofidentifying a master and being
on the path to mastery, what doyou think that, what do you
think it takes to actuallybecome a master in a particular

(45:04):
field?
The masters that, okay.
So I've never done it, so Idon't know.
Right.
Cause really, you know, thosewho don't, those who know do and
those that can't do teach.
So, um, I think you're sellingyourself a little bit short.

(45:25):
[inaudible] no, no.
I've gotten good at things, butit's different.
So being a scratch golfer is goto golf, right?
Sure.
But Tiger Woods beat you by 10strokes every time you play.
So depends on how you definemastery.
Be getting a black belt inJujitsu, make if you're a real
black belt, you're legitimatelytough human.
Yeah.

(45:45):
Right.
You're legitimately good atJujitsu, but you're not, I
wouldn't call you a master.
I mean like what does John,Donna, her say about black
belts?
It's, that's the beginning.
Yeah.
That's the beginning.
That's where you basically aredefined as a serious student.
Yeah.
I think that's probably aboutright.
So what I have found about guy,people that are, that are true
masters, they're really good atkeeping it simple.

(46:08):
They just keep things realsimple.
Like in their Jujitsu or, or intheir painting or in their, in
whatever they do.
Well, there's just a naturalsimplicity to it and using,
that's because uh, a recognitionthat what mastery is, is first a
mastery of the fundamentals.

(46:29):
So Bruce Lee said that a punchbegins as a punch and then it
becomes much more as a punchonly to end up being a punch.
Yeah.
Meaning that when any idiot canthrow their fist in the air and
think that's a punch.
Yeah.
And then once you startrealizing how hard it is to
actually punch you, you find outthat it's really difficult and

(46:52):
you start thinking about how thef it starts in your ankle and
then it moves up and it turnsinto your hip and the whole, you
know, and you, you become almostPratt paralysis.
You almost get no state ofparalysis about understanding
how much there is.
But when you practice, you getthrough that and then it turns
into muscle memory again and youstart throwing correct punches
without thinking about them.
I think there's a lot of that,but I think that at least in my

(47:17):
own life, I look at my ownJujitsu and its limitations.
I think it's stymied.
In fact, it's stymied by thefact that I complicate things.
You know, I think that thepeople that are really at
Jujitsu flow and they flowbecause they feel, and I think,
I think a lot.
Yeah.
And I think thinking is theenemy of flow.

(47:39):
Sure.
In Jujitsu in particular as a,as a is a good place for that to
be relevant because it's a bigcomplex game.
I think what's interesting is,uh, that if you actually, even
by kind of the definition thatyou, that you had, which I think
is, yeah, I think you couldprobably argue one way or the
other.
I think a black belt relativeto, you know, the best black

(48:03):
belt in the world is probablynot a master but black belt
relative to 99% of the rest ofthe population.
Of the world would certainlylook like someone who has some
master hours.
Yes.
Basically mastered somethingincredibly difficult.
But I think what's interestingis even for the ones that you
would, uh, you and I wouldclearly agree are true masters

(48:24):
of what they are at their are towhatever it happened to do,
would not self define themselvesas masters.
They would not even callthemselves as masters.
They would more and more oftenthan not refer to themselves as
a continuing student.
And to me that kind of feelslike the important thing is not
to achieve mastery, but just tobe continued to be on that path
of mastery and never, I thinkthat's true for sure.

(48:46):
I mean the definition ofstresses, things aren't going
the way you want them to andanything you can't control.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, I think that'sbeing on that path of
progressive achievement.
Um, and you guys, you don't TonyRobins.
Yep.
So I love Tony Robbins.
I'm a total Tony robins buff andI get, I get that he's cheesy.
Anybody at least your giant withthat.
I've done that.

(49:06):
Yeah.
I've listened to all his and notall that, listen to a whole
bunch of his tapes.
I've been listening to TonyRobbins for 20 years.
Sure.
I think he's fantastic.
And I think he's really rightwhen he talks about growth and
you know, you don't, if yousuccessful people, the one thing
they all have in common isthey're always growing.
Yeah.
And if your, if you look atdepression or you look at the
majority or anxiety disorders,or you look at a lot of people

(49:28):
that just aren't really happy,you can trace it back to they're
not growing.
Yeah.
You know, as long as you'removing forward, it doesn't even
matter if you're starting from asmall base.
As long as you're movingforward, tomorrow will be better
than today and be, and that weneed that psychologically.
And I think Jujitsu helps withthat.
Yeah.
You know, moving forward, evenif it's slow matters.

(49:51):
Yes.
You know, I mean, I've trainedJujitsu now since 1994 and I sit
and I'm a black belt.
Sure.
Right.
But I'm looking forward.
Yeah.
And so I'm not no rush.
And I love that fact.
I really am not in a rush.
Yeah.
You know, my biggest nightmarein Jujitsu is that I get a black
belt and I'm not really a blackbelt.
Like I don't want to be an oldman black belt.
It doesn't actually, if I wave aflag, you know, you know as they

(50:12):
say in the Middle East and Shelayes.
When I wear a black belt I wantit to matter.
It's funny when I talked toother black belts is that um, is
that when they achieve being ablack belt, it's a little bit of
like a let down because nowthey, that

Speaker 1 (50:28):
there is no more belt progression.
There's no, you know, fixedlike, oh I know how well I'm
doing because there's anotherstripe, here's that, here's
another color and now I'm just ablack belt.
Right.
Just like every other black beltout there.
Now the challenge is actuallywhat type of black belt am I
going to be.
The challenge now is notprogression but almost

(50:50):
self-expression.
Like what is it that I'm goingto be about?
And that seems to be like, youknow, kind of like the threshold
moment where, you know, peoplestart differentiating themselves
a little bit.
There are people who kind ofstick with the games that they,
they're currently doing and youknow, they dominate in their gym
or whatever it happens to be.
And then there are others whojust continue, as you say,

(51:12):
pursuing growth and kind ofreally just continuing being a
perpetual student.
Yeah,

Speaker 2 (51:18):
I mean, um, I think Jujitsu definitely gets more
fun.
Yeah.
The more you do it, um, I thinkit's a lot more fun being a
black belt, tapping out bluebelts than it is being a blue
belt, getting tapped by blackbelts.
Like if I had to pick in thathierarchy, I think it's a lot
more fun.
Yeah.
Uh, I don't know.

(51:39):
Um, a big part of Jujitsu for meas I, uh, as I kind of move up
is health.
Yeah.
It feels a lot more like I'msalsa dancing now.
Yeah.
And it does.
And I'm fighting.
Sure.
And I, and I think that's reallyNice, particularly as I get
older, it becomes about healthand flexibility.

(52:00):
And, and less about being alphaand less about that.
Um, and a lot more aboutteaching.
I love teaching.
It's, I, I just love it.
Yeah.
And I find that when I'm inJujitsu, I'm always teaching.
Sure.
I mean, I'm rolling andlearning, but then I'm teaching
like, ah, you know, or I'mproblem solving with somebody.

(52:20):
Maybe that's a better way to sayit.
Ah, you know, right there thatyou should've been here.
You know, I find that I'm halfthe time when I'm rolling, I'm
thinking about the otherperson's position relative to my
position and noticing theirmistake.
Um, as much as I am noticing howI capitalize on it.
Sure.
Um, but yeah, I mean, look, uh,at the end of the day, none of
this matters.
We're all dust, like when itreally comes down to it.

(52:42):
So I don't know if it reallymatters to be a world champion.
Sure.
But I think that it matters thatyou do your best and I think
that it matters that you get asense of, um, uh, that you feel
good about yourself.
Yeah.
Uh, and good about yourpractice.
I think that matters.

(53:04):
Like self-esteem matters a lotand I think Jujitsu helps with
that.
You know, you become a much moregentle soul sure.
Because you feel better aboutyour place in the world.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
I mean just as a physical activity, every, all
the benefits that come alongwith doing that too on a daily
basis.
Sure.
And but let's talk a little bitabout parenting.
Cause I think that's one of thethings that also changes
significantly as people olderthey become parents and that
become, you basically becomekind of like a slightly
different person or at leastyour perspective shifts.
Do you have kids?
I have to, yeah.
Okay.
Eldest one also does Jujitsu'sseven years old.

(53:37):
A turning seven.
Okay.
Gray white belt just about totransition to gray black belt.
Very cool.
That's really very cool.
No, I mean that it's one of thethings I've found most
interesting just about myselfand just my relationship to
Jujitsu too, is just looking at,ah, what an interesting vehicle
this is for learning and forteaching and for instilling kind

(54:00):
of certain things, certainvalues, especially to kind of a
young formative mind like, uh,like a child actually.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
So brush, pseudo, mm or Bushido if I'm saying it
correctly.
A M I think is a wonderful basicpremise for living your life and
the basic worldview.
Describe Machino Bushido it'sthe Japanese is the way of the
Samurai.
So it's, you know, one part zenand about zen simplicity.
It's one part.

(54:29):
Um, uh, well I guess, okay.
So the way the Samurai is about,there's a couple of different
things.
So there's a, a strong sense ofum, letting go of all fear
because, and that really stemsfrom duty.
So you have a duty to uphold a,the honor of your master.
You have a duty to defend thedefenseless and, and the only

(54:53):
way you can really fulfill thatduty is by letting go of your
fear of self preservation.
So you can't be a good swordfighter if you're worried about
being cut.
Yup.
And so, uh, the first step ofthat is that daily contemplation
of death and to perceiveyourself as already dead.
Yeah.

(55:13):
Because then that only then canyou really be brave.
So that's, that's one element ofit.
I think.
Um, I think the other element of, uh, the, the, the focus on
simplicity and elegance, youknow, so the, the Japanese tea
ceremony is an example of it orthe way in which they trained
me.
They invented Jujitsu, thetechnical elements of Jujitsu.

(55:35):
I mean that's, you have a hardtime getting away from the way
of the Samurai, uh, if you'restudying Jujitsu, cause a lot of
this came from there.
Yeah.
I mean, a huge part of it,frankly, you know, we like to
believe that the Braziliansinvented Jujitsu, or at least
modern Jujitsu.
But if you go back and actuallystart looking at a lot of the, a
lot of these moves we'vereinvented.

(55:57):
Yeah.
They have already kind of beenthere.
Yeah.
And if you talk to old school,Brazilian goes over like, Ya
know, we were always doing deliHiva just didn't call it Deli
Heva we were always, you know,half guard is, you know, yes.
It wasn't quite the positionthat it is now, but you know it
and that's just in our lifetimesand realize this stuff's a
thought over thousands of yearsold.

(56:17):
Yeah.
So when you really kind of diginto into it,

Speaker 1 (56:21):
if stuff comes in with fads as well.
Right.
And you know, even within

Speaker 2 (56:24):
kind of Japanese culture, they are fads around
kind of new Aza and kind ofdropping it back off.
So I would not be surprised thatthere's the kind of nothing new
under the sun really.
I mean, or very little.
Yeah.
Very little.
Yeah.
I've heard the electric chairwas no[inaudible] you're not up
to date on the nomenclature sofar.
Not Up to date.

(56:44):
[inaudible] any holes from yourelectric chairs, your mission
controls, you know, crazy.
So yeah, recently I rolled withsomeone who's really good with
legs.
Yeah.
Small guy.
I was amazed at how he destroyedme.
Sure.
I was amazed at people that werereally good at bare and Bolo and
people that are really good atleg locks.

(57:04):
Yeah.
That game is a very, verydifferent game.
Oh yeah.
Like, I mean, I felt like Ireally felt like rolling with
him.
I was like a white belt.
I'm like, wow.
Like I'm just not prepared.
You know, I, I'm just notfundamentally prepared to deal
with this.
You've been ignoring 50% of thehuman body.
That's true for 20 years.
Oh yeah.
I know it's very true, butthat's the beauty of it.

(57:26):
Right.
So I mean, there's so much moreto learn and, and um, yeah.
To stay injury free.
Yes.
And continue to train issomething that I want to do for
a long time.
Well, actually, let's, let'sfinish off on that topic.
So, you know, I'm kind of anhour by this idea of like
compound effects, right?
Yeah, I agree.
And it's quite easy tounderstand, although it's hard

(57:46):
to kind of, uh, have thediscipline to enforce, but you
know, people recognize thatthere are, you know, negative
things that people do in theirlife but have very small
consequences in the short term,but they have compound effects
that could mean the bigdifference in terms of your
quality of life, you know,towards the end in 20 or 30
years, whether it's smoking ordrinking, not getting enough

(58:08):
sleep, carrying too much weightor fat or being, you know,
unhealthy.
So on the flip side, what doyou, what are the kind of
positive compound effects thatyou feel that you are kind of
now putting in place foryourself, for your family that
you think will kind of enhanceyour quality of life as you go
along?

Speaker 3 (58:28):
Um, there's a bunch, there's a bunch.
Um, uh,[inaudible]

Speaker 2 (58:36):
my family values, education.
Hmm.
We're all the whole family.
We're all always reading booksand talking about the books that
we're reading.
There's a compounded F and, anduh, I make a real effort with my
daughter to try to make surethat she's integrating the
knowledge that she's acquiringinto, into other topics.
Yeah.
So if we're going to studygeology, we start talking about

(58:59):
volcanology and how that playsinto biology.
Sure.
And evolutionary biology causethey all tie it right.
Everything's connected.
Yeah.
So I think there's a huge amountof value in, in, in making a
real effort to learn.
Yeah.
And to really focus on learning.
I think that's really anactually of a very important
idea.
Yeah.
I mean it falls onto your kindof like, uh, identification of
the growth mindset that comes,you know, and that's kind of

(59:23):
distilled while you do Jujitsuthat you embrace that kind of
centrality.
The second thing is I think it'sreally important to live beneath
your means.
Hmm.
I don't care how much money youhave live beneath it.
Yeah.
No matter how much money youmake, spend less than what you
make.
You sit in that margin ofsafety.
Right.
Just, it's just a, the more thatyou, the more you have, I think

(59:43):
the stoics have got this rightwhere they talk about, you know,
the more you get, the more youhave, the more you need.
Yeah.
And it's, it's OK to have a lot,but it's not okay to need a lot,
you know.
So with my daughter, I've gottwo basic ideas that are, so
again, as you get older, one ofthe realizations I'm coming to
is how little, how little timeand how little impelled little

(01:00:07):
room.
You really have to make a realimpact in the list, right.
If you do one thing and it makesa big impact, that's a lot.
That's more than almosteverybody in the world.
Yeah.
Right.
Most people, when they die,their name and what they did in
the earth very quickly vanishes.
Sure.
So with my daughter, I've gottwo ideas that I, I, the other
more important than anythingelse that I want to instill in

(01:00:28):
her.
The first is self-esteem.
It's very important to me thatshe feels good about herself.
I will trade almost anythingelse I can give her for
self-esteem.
Yeah, the second.
But using that more importantfor girls than for boys.
I only have a girl.
Sure.
But if I had a boy, I had saidthe same thing.
I think as a parent I want mydaughter or my son to feel good

(01:00:52):
about themselves fundamentallygood.
And the second thing, which isrelated to the first is I want
to maximize self-esteem and Iwant to maximize adversity.
Yeah.
I want to watch my daughter hitthe asphalt a bunch in front of
me cause I know I can pick herup because I won't always be
there for her.
And I wanna make sure she knowshow to pick herself up for sure.

(01:01:13):
And, and so those, you know,those two issues, I think
Jujitsu does a lot of that.
Yes.
Because you can't get goodunless you get tapped a lot.
And if you're worried aboutbeing tapped, then your f your
ego is getting in the way ofyour growth.
Yes.
And so I do that with mydaughter in all things in her
life and that's what I'm tryingto give her.

(01:01:34):
If I can just give her that,that's more important than
everything else.
She'll figure everything elseout in her own way, in her own
time.
I think for Jujitsu, for kids, Imean, I'm a huge proponent of it
, obviously, but for thatspecific point, I agree with you
100% because I think it's reallyinteresting that you can
essentially have this kind ofcontrolled atmosphere, right?
Where you can experiment withthese ideas of resilience and

(01:01:57):
adversity, but where theconsequences are completely, you
know, bounded, right?
Yeah.
And you kind of just, you canliterally do it on a daily basis
and then they can kind ofextrapolate from that.
Hopefully bring that out intoother parts of their life.
They can just learn by analogy.
So I think it's super important.
Cool.
So I think that's a greatconversation.

(01:02:18):
Thanks so much guys.
I really appreciate your time.
Thank guys.
Thank you.
Take care.