February 13, 2025 • 63 mins
Talking about one of the oldest IPA'a in the Pacific Northwest from the legendary Terminal Gravity Brewery, living in a van down by the river, and spending your last dollar on a Winston fly rod. This episode dips into the joys and struggles of living and recreating in rural communities. I'll bet you a pint you learn something.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
These are stories of outdoor adventure and expert
advice from folks with callousedhands.
I'm James Nash and this is theSix Ranch Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Mr Dave Flynn.
How are you doing, sir?
I'm doing great.
Yeah, yes, thank you for havingme.
This is incredible.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Yeah, I'm stoked that you're here.
I'm stoked that you're here.
I'm trying to think back to thefirst time I met you and I feel
like it was pretty close tothis time of year.
It might've been Christmasbreak in college, so it might've
been closer to like January 1st.
Somewhere in there it wascolder than hell down on the
Grand Ronde.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Right, and you were home for college.
Yeah, and you were coming downto fish.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yep, yeah, you were looking at boosting up a little
guide operation down there,correct, and you?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
seemed like the perfect person to take it on,
but you had some other thingsgoing on.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, it's weird how that happens, isn't it?
The other things?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yep, yeah, what brought you to the Grand Ronde.
The Grand Ronde I grew up inLeGrand.
When I was about 21 years old Afriend of mine, mike Keffer,
got me into fly fishing and Ireally had no ties to LeGrand
(01:38):
family-wise.
My dad lived there when I wasin high school.
He moved on my junior year so Istayed and finished high school
.
I was just stuck there for awhile and learned to fish.
He took me to the Wenaha River.
We left Friday after work, hikeddown that night, and when I say
(02:02):
fished, I fished the uppergrand ron and a couple lakes
around the grand.
So hadn't actually caught anyreal fish yet, yeah, and got to
the winaha and started landingbig bull trout over 20 inches
and uh, never made it to troy atthat point.
But I got to the winaha and Iknew that I had to, you know,
(02:26):
spend more time there.
So consecutive weekends throughthat summer, uh, would go down,
hike down, fish the Wenaha,come back up.
And then it was rolling intoOctober and I knew the steelhead
were coming into Troy but I'dnever been yet.
So October 31st 1995, I went toTroy and stayed down there for
(02:52):
the night, fished a couple daysand just fell in love with it
Was working at a dead-end job ina trailer factory in La Grande,
which is what you did if youdidn't go to college.
Either that or you pulled greenchain at the mill, and I was
lucky enough to spend almostfive years at the trailer
factory and knew that if Ididn't get out of there then I
(03:12):
would probably never get out.
Was that Nash Trailers?
It was Terry Trailers, but Nashwas the CEO.
Gotcha, they got rid of him.
He started his own thing, and soit was just chaos for a few
years he basically came in andtook all the good talent that we
had and had a great operationout of the gate.
(03:35):
So but me as a 20 year old kid,there was a lot of
opportunities in lead positionsand things in this company that
had just been gutted.
So I got a few opportunities tokind of do everything in the
plant and was just bored andwanted to get out.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Before we get back into fly fishing, what are some
lessons you learned during thosetimes that you're using now at
Terminal Gravity?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Production number one .
Yeah, yeah, you know, uh, inthe trailer factor we got paid
on production.
You know you got your your baserate but at the end of the week
if you did really well and whennash was there we did really
well we'd get like 50 to 60percent of our paycheck again.
And you know I was making greatmoney out of high school.
And then once he left, you knowI never saw another bonus.
(04:26):
But it's about keeping thefactory moving, uh, at terminal
gravity.
It's scanning line.
You know that thing.
Just once you start it it needsto run until you're done.
And downtime is loss of beertime, just everything.
And what is terminal?
gravity uh, terminal gravitybrewing is the local brewery and
(04:49):
enterprise that has been theresince 1996.
Uh, opened by a couplebootstrapping guys that you know
brought it up as a microbreweryin the mid 90s which was for
oregon.
It wasn't full ofmicrobreweries yet, you know
there was a handful in Portland,a handful in Bend and that was
(05:09):
about it.
So it made an early start.
Their IPA, I think, won IPA ofthe Year Award in 96 or 97,
maybe, and you know, still goingtoday.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Yeah, pretty incredible.
Today, you know we, I mean youcan't go to a city and, you know
, swing a cat without hitting anew IPA.
You know, yeah, but at thattime that wasn't a normal thing
at all.
You know those big IPAs thatthe Pacific Northwest became
(05:45):
known for, that started here.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, it did, and it's uh carried on and uh,
there's been hundreds andhundreds of brewery scents and
uh, I think this is the firstyear that uh, more breweries
closed than actually opened inOregon.
Really, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So what's happening why?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
is that occurring?
I think people are drinkingless beer.
Number one, A lot of differentoptions between cider and
seltzer and, you know, less fatoptions.
A lot of people are justdrinking less.
Saturation in the market withbreweries is huge.
It's not an extremelyprofitable business at all.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
What are some of the biggest struggles?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Being, you know, this far away from your marketplace.
I mean Portland historicallyhas been our biggest marketplace
.
So just getting your beer there, getting all of our packaged
goods brought here to make cansof beer from Portland, so just
you know, being further awayfrom the hubs make it tough.
(06:56):
You know our brewery hasn'tgrown in 10, 15 years probably.
You know we're just kind ofGrown in 10, 15 years probably
you know it's kind of Grown inwhat way?
Grown in barrels of productionper year.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
So like your capacity , yeah, like 2008 was the most
beer we ever made.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, and funny, 2020 was the second most beer we
ever made.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
So recession, depression, 2020 was wild and
there's so many growing painsthat are left over in industry
from that and, whether it's beeror guns or ammunition or
whatever, there's a lot ofspending that was going on in
(07:46):
certain sectors and in othersectors there was no spending at
all.
So you had businesses thatexploded, businesses that fell.
I was definitely part of abusiness that fell during that
time because they shut downguiding very, very hard and they
shut down boat, boat launches,boat ramps Couldn't do it.
(08:08):
They actually reopened stripclubs in Oregon before they
before they allowed guidingagain.
So funny to me and you know I Ipivoted into other things and
it's all good.
But yeah, I also saw a lot ofbusinesses who made a bunch of
money have the expectation thatthey were going to continue
(08:32):
making that amount of money, andif you've ever worked in an
industry like agriculture, youknow that whenever prices are
good, bad times are coming next.
You know that whenever pricesare good, bad times are coming
next.
So it was really interesting tome that so many businesses got
caught off guard because by thetime 2022 rolled around, they're
(08:53):
like a whole crap.
We had all this spend plannedand now nobody's buying like
they were in 2020.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Absolutely.
For us, we have a very limitedinside seating capacity.
So Natalie Millard that wasrunning the place at the time
decided she wanted to buy abunch of wall tents and stick
them up.
And you know, I've been in anoutfitter before and I'm just
like, yeah, you're kind of crazyand I don't know.
(09:23):
And uh, our best winter ever.
It was awesome.
I love the wall tent so much.
They were great.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Uh, a little propane heater in the corner.
You were there with your ownpeople.
I mean drinking beer and eatingfood in a wall tent.
That's some of the best partsof hunting.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
It is, and it's interesting to see at a
restaurant level to be able tosee.
When we first started out weput a bunch up but we didn't
have all of our own yet, so wehad borrowed one from Dub
Darneel, you know outfitter inJoseph Creek, and there's two
bloody handprints on the ceilingof it.
(10:03):
I'm just like, yeah, this isWall, this is yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Willow County.
Welcome to Willow County.
You know this is also I don'tknow.
I think we're an interestingfood culture here, like a fairly
unique food culture even, youknow, outside of beer and stuff
like that.
We've got some some goodrestaurants here and we've got a
lot of people that care a hugeamount not only about how that
(10:27):
food gets plated and served butwhere the ingredients are
sourced.
And you know there's some niceplaces here, but there's not a
single restaurant in WallowaCounty that I wouldn't feel
comfortable walking into if Ihad a substantial amount of
either blood or cow shit on meand it would be okay, part of
(10:51):
the deal.
No, nobody would look twice,unless they were from out of
town.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I love that for us.
Yeah, just uh, no corked, youknow.
Boots on the floors please.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, does anybody still?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
wear corked logging boots.
No fishing, though.
Oh yeah, they're not corked,but spiked yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Do you remember ever coming over and seeing like the
little store in the 90s?
Yeah, yeah.
So all the loggers wore corkedboots, right With spikes all
over them, and it was perfectlyacceptable to go into this
convenience storeers were corkedboots right with spikes all
over them, and it was perfectlyacceptable to go into this
convenience store with yourcorked boots.
And it had a wood floor thathad been perforated by you know
(11:32):
a hundred years of loggers goingin there to get coffee in the
morning.
And that floor was so coolbecause it was just so spiked up
, that is cool.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I don't remember that specifically, but that is, that
is cool, yeah uh, yeah, thecorked wading boots, man, that's
, that's another one.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
The metal they put in those things just is the
destroyer of worlds.
It is.
It kills everything.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
yeah, yeah, uh, and I run rafts a lot, so I mean I
try to just stick with felt.
Yeah, but We've got slipperyrivers.
Yes, very much, and you know itdoesn't take one person going
down in October, november andthe day's over.
Yeah, you know.
Yeah totally, and you're fouror five miles away from the
(12:15):
takeout.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, Like it's a borderline survival situation at
that point.
Yes, it's.
Not only is it slick, but it'scold.
But whether it's ice or justthe consistency shape of our
rocks, that little bit of slimethat gets on them at certain
times of year, these areslipperier rivers than a lot of
places I've fished.
Yeah, yeah, Slip strips andfalls.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, I had two clients in October go down this
year and luckily it was, youknow, 90 degrees, yeah yeah, and
just dripped down and got dry.
But that happens, you know,this time of year and it's no
fun.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
How do you maintain your mental health while guiding
steelhead fishermen?
Whew, because I couldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, I'm pretty easy it.
Yeah, I'm I'm pretty easy going.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
You know, and I think that, uh, I'm probably too easy
going, right?
Uh, I remember, I remember youknow guiding with you several
times and you know us sharingclients back and forth, and you
know us sharing clients back andforth and you know, you just
telling this guy, you're justlike every time you got a man,
(13:29):
you got a man and you would tellhim all day, and I think you
were just frustrated and, uh, Ijust told him a few times and he
just didn't do it, and so Ijust let him roll for the day.
You know, I feel like I can fixwhat I can fix, but there's
sometimes there's just somethings with certain people that
you, just you can't and if Itook that on myself as a
(13:52):
responsibility to fix, Iwouldn't.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, I wouldn't do it.
Yeah, the way I guided 10 yearsago, 15 years ago, was so
different from how I guide nowand it's something that I've.
I talk about a lot and I'llcontinue to, because it was the
single biggest lesson I learnedin guiding In my early days.
I was trying to give people thetrip that I wanted if I was a
(14:18):
client, you know, and that would, that would mean at that time,
like doing my very best to fishthat water well, to have the
maximum opportunity, to catchthe most the biggest fish, to
improve constantly, things likethat.
And that's me.
So I was imposing what I wouldlike on my clients and some of
(14:41):
these guys don't care about that, like they just want to hang
out and fish, and some of themdon't want to fish at all, they
just want to sit in the boat orread a book, or they're just
looking forward to hitting campthat night and pulling the cork
out of a bottle of wine andwatching the river go past them.
And I think that that's lovelyand that's wonderful and I want
to help people achieve theirversion of success.
(15:02):
But I made some mistakes atthat time where I was just
frustrated because peopleweren't trying to improve.
And that's on them, it's theirtrip, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, and I think it's accepting that a little bit
.
Uh, you and I did a a woundedwarriors trip years ago and I
remember there was a lateaddition to the trip and the guy
just didn't want to fish and hewas in your boat and I just
remember your frustration.
You're just like, yeah, there'ssuch great opportunity right
here in front of you.
You just gotta, you know, takethat rod and listen to me.
(15:40):
And uh, for whatever reason,just wasn't his thing.
Yeah and uh, it's.
I just don't think those arethings that you can fix.
Sometimes, you know, it's justlike every other aspect of the
trip was perfect for this personand just like, uh, yeah, and
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, yeah, that's okay.
In that case I I rememberspecifically thinking that he
had some fears that was holdinghim back and that I felt like he
wanted to fish but just had avariety of fears and I was
trying to figure out a mechanismfor helping him get over that.
(16:19):
But yeah, there's also there'sdifferent folks that that I
think your profession reallyinforms the way you approach fly
fishing.
Doctors are some of the veryhardest people to teach anything
(16:40):
to and there's such authoritiesin their day to day their.
Their word is like gold.
You know you can't teach adoctor to mend.
It's impossible.
And mending is is editing, it'sadmitting that your initial
approach was wrong and thatyou've got to do something now
(17:01):
to make it a little bit better,and you're probably going to
have to continue to do thatduring this drift.
You're going to have to dosomething now to make it a
little bit better, and you'reprobably going to have to
continue to do that during thisdrift.
You're going to have to do itagain, the next cast, and if you
don't do it, the initialproblem is going to get worse.
And that's probably notsomething that they experience
very much in their day-to-day inthe medical field.
You know they're going to firethat first shot based off of all
(17:24):
the information that they haveand all of their experience, and
you know they're going to comeback after a time and see if
that needs to be corrected.
But it's not this constantthing.
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, two of my favorite clients and my longest
clients are these two doctorsand it's father my longest
clients are these two doctorsand its father's son the son
recently retired orthopedicsurgeon from Seattle, and the
dad long-term retired but wasthe orthopedic surgeon for the
(17:58):
Seattle Seahawks in the 80s Okay, and went to the Pro Bowl twice
.
Wow, if you didn't know, yeah,you get the surgeons, get to go
too.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
They deserve it Right .
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, anyway, it's my favorite thing.
I'm really more of a mediatorbetween these two rather than
you know they won't let me touchtheir flies or their line.
Yeah, I don't offer anyextraction.
The son is just like you needto get dad down further in that
hole and get him casting out alittle more upstream.
(18:30):
And you know, and it's amazingwatching these two, they just
it's a battle, yeah, two, youknow that just fight.
And the old man, they each packa spay rod and a nymph rod and,
you know, do the appropriatething.
So yeah, it's fun.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
That is fun.
One trip that I had that wasjust absolutely hysterical to me
, that I ended up just kind ofassuming the position of the
oarsman and not doing much else.
I had these twin brothers whowere like in their early
eighties and I'm convinced thatwhenever you get guys together
(19:13):
who are the same age, they allact like 16 year olds.
And these guys definitely didact like 16 year olds and they
had that like brotherlycompetitiveness.
But they were also twins,identical twins, and they wanted
to catch each other's fish allday long, which meant casting to
the same exact spot and hooks,hook, stuff, as it turns out,
(19:35):
including other hooks.
So it was a tangle for theentire stretch of the willow
river because these guys werejust constantly trying to catch
each other's fish and it washilarious and I just kept
thinking about, like theirmother, and the frustrations
this is what a fishing trip islike knuckleheads, but it was so
(19:58):
funny I just laughed the entiretime and uh, yeah, I don't know
.
You just get some reallywonderful experiences like
stepping into the role of guidein these family groups,
sometimes in these close friendgroups.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty important, uh, especially
not to ruin a trip for otherclients that are around, you
know, I mean, yeah, families aretough.
So a story that I want to hearuh, you and I both got this call
years ago.
Um, there's a raft trip inhell's canyon.
Mike baird hits his head andthey don't have enough guides to
(20:39):
move the party, so they have tobasically overnight right there
until they get an extra guidejet boated up so that they can
move.
Yeah, and you get the call andyou're going in and, uh, I
always thought about just likeyou're kind of the hero, right,
(20:59):
like the whole party can't move,these people are stranded until
they get another guy that canmove.
Tell me about that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
So I definitely did think that it was also the 4th
of July.
I hadn't gotten to celebrate a4th of July in many, many years
and I was excited about beinghome for it.
But these guys are jammed updown there.
I'm going to do the right thingand go and I thought, yeah, you
know they're going to be,they're going to be pumped,
pumped to see me.
(21:28):
I'm, you know, sacrificingsomething here.
I'm going to get to go helpthese guys finish out the trip.
They were below all the majorwhitewater at that point, so it
was just going to be easy streetfor a couple of days on the on
kind of a milder section ofhell's canyon, and when I caught
up with them they were floating, they were on the river.
They'd figured it out, theydidn't need me at all oh, really
(21:51):
, yeah, they didn't need me evena little bit.
So I went from like thinkingthat I was doing a good thing
and like being the hero to like.
Oh, I could have been at homelike eating hamburgers.
What?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
do they like roll a vote and put some people on the
gear vote or what?
I think that they just had.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
they had enough folks like they'd figured it out,
okay, and I was a little bitbutthurt about it, honestly.
And Jordan Manley, when we gotto camp that night, he's like,
hey, man, like what's the deal?
And I sort of explained my, myperspective to him and he said,
you know, we we figured out howto, how to do this without you,
(22:33):
but we also wanted you herebecause everybody was a little
bit stressed out because thetrip leader just gotten hurt.
We went through all this bigwhitewater and we, we just like
you and we wanted you to be hereand thought that you'd want to
be here too.
And, uh, that totally dissolved,like any feelings that I'd had
about about myself and uh, itmade me realize how important
(22:56):
that guide community is,especially on those expedition
trips, and and how mucheverybody's there to support
each other.
Yeah, and from that pointforward, I just had a wonderful
time and and I so appreciatedJordan for you know, having that
really honest conversation withme and in a way that was was uh
, just acceptable and that Icould, that I could take it in
(23:20):
and feel it.
Jordan's awesome about thatstuff.
Yeah, yeah, that's good, yeah,but uh, no, that was a, that was
a super wild whitewater year.
I think every, every guideended up flipping that year um,
except for me and paul, maybe.
Wow, yeah, yeah, brutal, brutalwhitewater year.
(23:41):
What was that?
2016, 2017?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, right in there.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
And then I got motorized after that and said
I'm done with the rubber, I'mgoing to go upstream in a jet
boat.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
You know there's always been that.
You know the jet boat versusrafting.
You know debacle, which youknow.
We're really all partners inkeeping the river system open
and good.
But I love that you get in abind on a raft and a jet boat
comes and helps you.
You know we had EnterpriseSenior Trip two years ago.
(24:22):
Yeah, we are.
We do the lower section down toPittsburgh and then jet back up
and we had to take.
We had to go through the rapidstwice because there's only one
jet boat operator that could gothrough the big stuff.
We're sitting there waiting forsome boats come through Wild
(24:43):
Sheep.
One of them flips over thefirst one, the second one flips
over and there's three moreboats in this party.
These are rafts, these arerafts and they just eddy out.
You know they don't even followtheir crew.
And uh, this jet boat operatedfrom the idaho side.
He just is like hey man um, youknow, load those people up on my
(25:04):
tail, got the people rath'scompletely flipped over and he
just pushes it with the front ofhis jet boat to get it over,
you know, to the bank.
Yeah, get those two people off,go and do the same thing with
the next one and, uh, it's justit, I'll tell you.
I mean, you go through Wildshipupside down, you know, granted,
(25:28):
it's not that far away, yeah,and these guys were not going to
flip those boats over, so it'spretty cool for everybody to
work together down there.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, hells is interesting and I think this
year in Hells is going to be abrand new type of year and I'll
explain why.
But up until this point there'sno road access, there are only
a handful of airstrips.
There's only a handful ofplaces that you can even get a
helicopter in, no cell service.
(26:00):
Satellite phones are sketchy atbest.
Inreaches take forever andthey're a relatively new
technology.
Not forever, but you might be15 minutes between communication
, because it's the steepest anddeepest canyon in North America,
so it's hard to get a satellitesignal out.
(26:23):
Have understood for as long aspeople have been in that canyon
that if anybody has a problemyou have an obligation to help
them in any way that you can,and I've helped people down
there, I've gotten help downthere, and there's never an
expectation of like oh now youowe me something or whatever.
(26:44):
It's just, you just do it.
There's a huge tide because ofthe dam right and you never
really know how much waterthey're going to be letting out
or holding back.
And just a couple of years agoI tied my boat up.
I'd gone and checked it threeor four times throughout the
night, which is my normalprocedure when I'm down there.
(27:04):
When I'm down there because I'mterrified of you.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Know, I don't know some kind of creature chewing
through my rope and my boatfloating away.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
You know I've usually got it tied up at a couple of
points and I'm also checking tomake sure that it's still in the
water and that they haven'tshut the dam off too much.
Well, between four o'clock andsix o'clock in the morning they
shut it down and when I woke upthe boat was completely dry.
So I've got 23 feet of jetboats sitting on the rocks right
.
It's like, oh boy, this is, thisis not great, but they're going
(27:35):
to let water out again.
They always do.
Well, the whole day goes bythey don't let water out.
Whole night goes by, they don'tlet water out.
The next morning boat's stilldry, they're not letting water
out.
I was like huh, and I've got acouple buddies with me there,
like we've got a schedule.
We you know, you know we've gotto get out at some point and, uh
(27:56):
, the number of boats thatstopped to see if we're okay, if
they needed to pull us off therocks or whatever, was every
single boat.
Yeah, every single boat thatcame up or down the river, came
over and was like you guys goodand like, yeah, we're good.
And on the last day the watercame up a little bit and we were
able to get it shoved off andeverything was dandy.
(28:18):
Yeah, I love that.
The reason I think it's goingto be different this year is
because now we have satellitetext on iPhones.
Yep, you can text picturesthrough satellite on iPhone.
Now we have mobile Starlink,which is increasingly common.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
So for the first year ever, people are going to be
able to go to Hell's Canyon andstream Netflix.
I've never even thought of itthat way.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
You know, I'm thinking of rescue help
communication, but uh, yeah, nokidding um, yeah one of these,
one of these last vestiges of offreedom from connectivity in
north america is no longer thatway.
Yeah, it's interesting.
That is interesting.
(29:14):
So the good old days justbecame that, you know?
Yes, it's changing right now,like this is the year that it's
happening.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Which you know it's bound to happen, I guess.
Um, I feel thankful that wewere able to see the other side.
You know, before it allhappened, I, in the winter of
1996, I had the opportunity togo to the idaho side of the
snake river, in get a creek outof, like Joseph Plains White
(29:49):
Bird area and winter some cowsdown there.
Oh, you did.
And best winter of my life, youknow, it was so exciting.
You know, I lived down on abouta mile off the Snake, up Getty
Creek, right across fromBeamers' Lodge, right across
from, uh, beemers' Lodge, yeah,and um so this farmer, he had,
(30:14):
you know, his summer place uptop and his canyon place in the
bottom, and you know they'reabout three miles apart, but you
know the road takes, you know,an hour and 15 minutes to get up
out of it's, it's brutal.
Um so in one of his pastures hebuilt these big rock jacks and
(30:34):
with a big pole on top, you know, just super tall one, and he
ran him a phone line down to thecanyon and um so, every once in
a while the cows would, youknow, rubber rock jack down and
you'd have to go, you know, fixit.
But I had a phone down there.
I got my mail by the jet boatonce a week and I could call
(30:57):
Beamers and say, hey, I need acase of beer and some dog food,
and they would throw it on,deliver it.
And I'd write them a check atthe thing so they would front
the money.
Throw it on, deliver it.
I'd write them a check at thething so they would front the
money.
And you know it's like wow.
You know, I got to experience athing in time that you know
maybe it'll still exist forever.
(31:18):
You know the mail service downthere, but having them go
shopping for you too andbringing you what you needed,
yeah, it was such a coolexperience, and mail is still
delivered by jet boat down there.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
US mail Right.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, all the way to Sheep Creek, right?
I believe so, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting because a lotof the Idaho side got to remain
private land.
They didn't take that side witheminent domain, but Oregon
caved man.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
They caved all the way to the state line.
Yeah, it's really sad knowingthe families affected by that.
You know, like before Iactually knew these families,
I'm like, oh yeah, well, itshould be, you know, a preserved
area.
It's really cool and everybodyshould get to experience it.
And when you think about howthey just took it, yeah.
(32:13):
And they had no choice and justchanged lifestyles.
And I understand now,especially being down there, and
I understand how those familiesfeel a little bit.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
You know a lot about rangeland and range science.
What do you think the impacthas been and what do you see it
going forward for the removal oflivestock from the canyon and
now a significant reduction ofthe wild ungulate populations?
(32:52):
I just was doing some researchon this yesterday.
So the management objective forelk in in the Snake River unit
is 4,000.
We're we're under 2,000 now andcalf recruitment has been in
the single digits.
The bighorns are getting sicklike um.
(33:13):
You know the.
The wildlife's not not doinggreat down there.
What, what do you see like how?
How has it changed sincelivestock was was removed from
the canyon and and how's thatgoing to affect the canyon
moving?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
forward.
I think the increase for firedanger with not utilizing those
canyons is huge.
We're devastated by fire everyyear now, on one side of the
(33:50):
county or the other we're hit byit, and I mean that fire is the
thing that's really changingthe landscape.
I just think that there'sbetter ways.
I think there are responsiblepeople that can utilize public
(34:12):
ground really well and I think,you know, with um, the new
technologies that you know thatthese ranchers are experimenting
with are really cool.
I mean being able to, uh, youknow, uh, put collars on cattle
and turn them out, and draw yourlines from a computer of where
they can and can't go.
I mean and electric fencingbasically uh, electric fencing,
(34:34):
but the satellite, there it's,but your cows are wearing it,
yeah, so you're not, you know,building electric fence anymore,
they're just setting up theseparameters with these towers
that reflect.
You know, know that it's thedog technology right, adapted to
livestock, and I think it'sgreat.
(34:57):
I think it shows a lot ofpromise for being able to, you
know, use ground appropriatelyand you can show on satellite
mapping on where these animalsare and aren't and you can prove
that it was, you know, the elkin the riparian zone versus your
cattle.
I mean, it's, it's a differenttool now that we we've never had
(35:18):
and uh, yeah, it's prettyinteresting it.
I think that with some of this,there might be more
opportunities in the future touh, some of this, there might be
more opportunities in thefuture to uh, yeah, to do it.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
I mean probably not in this county, but it'll take a
little while.
Yep, it'll take a little while,but as a national recreation
area it is designated multi-useand there's no reason why they
can't be allowing grazing onthose allotments.
Yeah, but no matter what theForest Service does, they get
sued and it makes it hard.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Exactly, and that's why you know, out in Troy, in
the North End, you know we're onthe Umatilla and so they.
I feel like they have betterpractices out there and are a
little more open just becausethey're out of the threat of of
being sued for anything they do.
Yeah, you know, I mean, I, uh,I'm on the natural resource
(36:17):
conservation council and I cansee how the forest service just
gets hamstrung into doingnothing.
Yeah, you know, um they, theycan't really win either way.
Yeah, um, yeah, um they, theycan't really win either way.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, um, yeah, it's tough, it is a tough situation,
it's a super tough situation anda lot of people want to throw
stones, but it it kind of islike that If they do something
in any one direction, they'reprobably going to get sued.
If they do nothing nothingeventually they get sued for not
doing anything yeah, and youknow you, just you whoop on
somebody like that and the riskaversion that comes up, uh, just
(36:57):
really prevents, preventsprogress.
It's tough, tough, tough.
So what is what does nrac do?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
uh, natural resource conservation council um your dad
obviously served.
Uh, they have some players fromthe nature conservancy odf um
oregon department forestryoregon department of forestry.
Um will our resources?
Uh, you know, every, everyplayer in the natural resource
(37:29):
game has a seat at the table.
Basically, there's a few peoplelike myself that are just
citizens and businesses that arethere, but it's, you know, a
monthly check in of whateverybody's doing.
And I think the most importantthing about it is you know a
(37:50):
monthly check-in of whateverybody's doing.
And I think the most importantthing about it is all of these
people sitting around the tablekind of sharing their plan,
which I feel for years had beena shortfall in all these
agencies working together inwith the community and I don't
(38:11):
know.
I just think that there's.
I think it's just good having apolicy.
I mean, I watch your dad, youknow, just straight call the
Forest Service guy out Like Iwant to know about this, and you
know.
And then they, you know, givewhat they know.
(38:33):
But sometimes you have to beasked and this is a forum to be
able to try to get theinformation out to the community
.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, there's a difficult balance between
committee collaboration,stakeholders and then people who
are acting in an authoritariancapacity without any type of
collaboration or oversight.
Have you ever heard that acamel is a horse by committee?
(39:08):
Have you ever heard that?
No, but I love it.
Yeah, so like that's how thecamel got built.
You just had too many peoplelike trying to, you know, add
their pieces to it and then youget this conglomeration of
things that looks like it's madeout of spare parts.
Yeah, yeah, adapted.
(39:29):
Yeah Well, yeah, somewhat.
I just read that they're lookingat these major major solar
projects in the Sahara.
Speaking of camels, yeah, oneof the things that I find
interesting about tinkering withthat zone and a lot of people
(39:52):
don't know this, this is a funfact is the origin of every
single hurricane comes from onesingle point in Africa, and it
is dust from the Sahara thathits the Atlantic Ocean at
Timbuktu.
And if you look at maps ofhurricanes, every single one of
(40:14):
them comes from this onespecific point in Africa, from
that dust, which is what thewater is able to form around and
, you know, become a cloud andthen travels across the Atlantic
, goes up into, you know, theGulf of America or wherever and
decides you know which piece ofland it's going to stomp on
(40:44):
piece of land it's gonna stompon.
But I I have concerns abouttinkering with a place like that
, that is, is the generator ofall these monster hurricanes.
Yeah, yeah, uh.
Have you ever read the bookskeletons of the sahara?
No, oh, that's a.
That's a great one.
It's a lot about camels, butit's about some sailors who get
shipwrecked there and getcaptured and taken as slaves and
(41:09):
they have to survive on amountsof fluid that you would think
would kill absolutely anybody,and a lot of what they were
allowed to drink as slaves wascamel urine.
Um, wow, really, yeah, and uh,it, it.
It is one of the the mostincredible stories of survival
(41:29):
I've ever heard.
There's been several, severalbooks written about it, but I
think skeletons of the Sahara isis one of the best, and it's a
good one on audible too.
If you're that kind of guy,which I am yeah, do you read
much?
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Nope, I'm a bit dyslexic.
I mean, I can read, I can makeit out, but, man, I cannot sit
and finish a book.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Yeah, do you like to listen to them?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
I do.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah, I prefer that much, but I just, you know I
don't find the time to do it.
I would do it.
I used to road trip back andforth to Portland a lot.
I would listen to books, butyou know I don't do it a lot.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
I vaguely remember you at one point spending almost
all of your money on a fly rod.
Yeah, tell me about thatportion of your life that was my
first.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
So I moved here in May of 96 to Troy and I had
everything that I owned in a1973 Volkswagen van, like faded
Kermit, the Frog color, but itwas a Westfalia, so it was the
pop top, had the oven and allthat.
Bougie, yeah, bougie, yeah,bougie, till you roll into Troy
(42:44):
in 1996.
And they are like what, son,tell us about Troy a little bit.
Oh, all right, yeah, so Troy inthat day.
It was kind of cool because thebig, mega ranches they're not
(43:08):
mega ranches, but the 10,000acre ranches weren't all put
together yet.
There were families.
You had 14 kids in the schoolat that point.
There still is a school in Troy.
There's now currently two and Ibelieve it's one family, two
students, yeah, so it's one fellswoop away from, you know, not
having a school.
Yeah, but yeah, there's 14 kids, there's quite a few people.
(43:32):
The town is kind of hopping,you know.
A lot of people are floatingthe Grand Ronde, a lot of people
are pulling out at Troy, a lotof people are stopping and
getting burgers and it was justkind of interesting.
It was a lot more people aroundfor the summertime.
(43:53):
Mark Hemstreet, who owns theShiloh Inns, at that point in
time he had this family ofworkers, about 30 people, uh,
called the amigos, and theywould.
They managed all of his timberon the ranch.
They maintained all of hisbuildings.
(44:13):
They came and took care of allthe grounds in troy.
And, uh, every saturday youknow I know there's a lot of
things about Markem Streetpeople are not like stoked about
but every Saturday night hewould pay full bill for all
these families to come down toTroy and eat what they want,
(44:34):
drink what they want and go home.
And he left the workers at therestaurant which I was working
at, the restaurant, 20% tipRight and like these are big
nights, these guys are drinkingpitchers of beer and having
tequila and there was music andit was kind of a fun scene the
first summer there.
(44:56):
And pretty soon the amigosdisbanded.
You know, he stopped hiringworkers and he leased the place
out and yeah, so trade has kindof changed.
A lot of ranch consolidation.
So where you had families on160 or 240 acres, now one person
(45:22):
would come in and they wouldbuy it all and so the families
are gone.
You know, you still have allthe old housing up there but
nobody's living there.
So you on grouse flat north oftroy you had, you know, 25
houses up there that had nopopulation.
You just have a few ranchershanging on up there and uh, you
(45:42):
know, the consolidation of allthese lands kind of kind of
killed the, the community vibefor the area a little bit.
Yeah, um and uh yeah, there'snot a whole lot to do down there
for for work.
So I get it.
The logging's dried up, thelogging used to.
There were mills in Troy, threeon the north side, two on the
(46:07):
other side.
There were mills everywhere andthere were population centers
back then.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, so you moved there in 1996 in your van.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Oh, in my van and I roll in in your van.
Oh, in my van, I roll in.
I have a Bucks bag pontoon, oneman pontoon, but on the top of
it too.
And, lucky enough, this fellowthat I had met, rick George, had
a house down there.
He had a house and a cabin,they had drug across the river
(46:40):
from the mill site and he said,hey, if you, you know, got this
place, if you can live behind itin your van for a while.
And I'm, you know, 30 feet awayfrom the Wenaha River.
There's no other houses nearbyor neighbors, and it was just,
it was pretty epic, and I fishedmore that summer than you know
(47:06):
I've ever fished in my life andit really cemented it that I
want to be there and tell meabout the fly rod.
The fly rod, here we go.
I'm working at the restaurant,I'm making tip money, I'm a
server.
All of a sudden I'm working atthe restaurant, I'm making tip
money, I'm a server, all of asudden, and I have no Amazon or
any of that back then.
There's nowhere to spend it,there's no internet yet for us,
(47:36):
bob Lamb's Joseph Fly Shop inJoseph, oregon.
And yeah, I spent a thousandbucks on a Winston rod and an
Abel reel Still have it allright.
I mean, you know, at the timeI'm just like wow, that's a lot
of money.
But you know, advertised out,you know it's a good investment,
(47:57):
yeah, great rod, yeah, buthonestly I fish a lot of cheap
rods now, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
I mean, I break so many and I, the cheap rods, have
gotten so much better.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
They are so good.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
A cheap rod in the 90s was going to be some kind of
fiberglass debacle that youknow flexed all the way past the
cork and they were so slow,that you could eat a sandwich
while you're waiting on yourback cast.
Uh, yeah, they're.
They weren't great.
The cheap rods today are veryhigh performance, but they're
(48:32):
still nothing quite like ahigh-end rod either.
For people who know if, if youfish very much, as soon as you
pick one up you're like, oh mygosh, like it feels like a
living thing that's connected toyou, yeah, yeah, and whether
that's, you know, sage orwinston or yeah, whoever else.
Uh, there's some reallywonderful fly rods out there
(48:55):
loop.
You know.
I've got some loop rods that Ireally love, but as far as just
the feeling of of a great rodthat you just, I don't know,
there's some kind of electricitythat happens as soon as it's in
your hand and that fly linestarts to load up.
For me, there's still justnothing quite like a Winston.
Yeah, yeah, they're prettyspecial.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
They really are.
Yeah, that was my first Winstonand my last actually.
I've never, uh, yeah, haven'tstarted having kids and just my
priorities changed.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
That'll change the game a little bit.
Yep, yeah.
So at what point are you goingto feel like you're an old timer
?
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Well, I was thinking about that because in May I will
have been here 29 years andthey told me when I got to
Willow County that you had to behere 30 years before you were
local.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Before you were local .
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Yeah, yeah, so I figure I'm getting my non-native
local license next year.
Nice Congratulations, yeah,which feels good.
It's hard.
It takes a lot to make thathappen.
Nice Congratulations, yeah,which feels good.
It's hard, it's a.
It takes a lot to make thathappen.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Yeah, I, I haven't spent 30 years here.
I'm 38 years old.
You know this has been my, myhome, my whole life.
But I've spent so much timeliving in other places, whether
that was, you know, a foreignexchange or college, or the
military, et cetera.
You know I'm not over the30-year mark yet.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Yeah, so you might be more local than me.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
The roots run deep, you know.
But no, I remember first seeingthis area.
I came and stayed with my dadin like sixth grade and he lived
in La Grande and we went up toWallowa Lake and there was
(50:51):
go-karts and mini golf and thiswhole world I've never seen
before and I was just like, oh,this place is cool, like I want
to live here someday.
This is great.
Yeah, and you know, never wasable to do it through the
teenage years, but I knew I wascoming back here Like there's
just something very special.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
What's your 2025 meet rodeo plan?
Oh God, All right.
You thought you had it thisyear.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
I thought you had it it's oh, man, man, I can't
believe you brought that up.
Yeah, so the meat rodeo.
This is our uh second or thirdyear, right, yeah?
something like that, yeah, soand yeah, uh, terminal gravity
has lost twice the range rider.
One side a won the first time,side side a won the first time
(51:40):
range rider.
So every time I go to the rangerider, one side a won the first
time, side side a won the firsttime range rider.
So every time I go to the rangerider I look at this buckle,
you know, staring at me on thewall and I just I, you know, was
trying to bring our a game andum, and then why?
we dominated every, every pieceof it, except for the burger
(52:00):
cooking which we were last.
I'm not even sure that it was.
I think it was totally raw.
And yeah, I think it's thatclassless thing of celebrating
too early.
Not that I was celebrating, butI had a right, I had a beer,
(52:21):
feel good, like I think this,you know.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
one more step but uh, your son won the burger eating
competition in the mostmasculine way possible.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Yeah, he, uh, he's been practicing all year.
Right, he's the ringer, likebring it on, what do you guys
have?
Yeah, no, his mother wasdisgusted, but yeah, the kid's a
winner.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah, I mean, you guys dominated trivia.
You won the cocktailcompetition.
Yeah, yeah, everybody was likealready visually wearing that
belt buckle in your minds,everybody was already visually
wearing that belt.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Buckle in your minds.
It's what's so cool.
And these newcomers, theWinding Waters crew, who I you
know, hats off, love them allthey showed up late.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
I tried to bring it up on a technicality.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
I'm like, hey, you were like 10 minutes late to
even start the competition, butthey did it.
They had a great burger and macand cheese and they were a fun
new competitor to the Meat Rodeo.
The thing that you guys havedone with that is really cool.
I love it.
It's uniquely for me justseeing the other restaurants
(53:39):
that are using the products andyou know and really also, yeah,
supporting those guys, becauseit's uh, being in direct sales
and having people that supportyour product is huge man
absolutely it's really big,rather than being out there
trying to find new customersevery week and trying to.
(54:02):
You know, that's just not asustainable method.
Well, all these jobs are.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
they're impossible to do on your own, whether that is
you know, creating beer inNortheast Oregon that you know
is is unique, using only handfulof ingredients and then trying
to distribute that from a placethat's difficult to distribute
from, when you have competitionfrom so many other places that
(54:31):
have it logistically easier toraising cattle in a place with a
brutal winter climate, lots ofpredators again, more, more
logistics issues.
We need each other to besuccessful and I think it's
awesome and it's hard, but we'redoing it.
(54:52):
We're making it Skin of ourteeth year to year.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
you know, right, yeah , and that's yeah.
That's what it's about for us.
Just hang on now.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yeah, right, you're you're here for the ride, and
that that's really what februaryis all about.
I want to ask you one other oneother thing here do do the
people of wallowa county have aresponsibility to show up to
places like Terminal, gravityRange Rider in the wintertime
(55:26):
and help you guys stay aliveduring during tough times when
we don't have, you know, oodlesof tourists coming through.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
You know I can't.
It's hard because financiallythere's a lot of people you just
can't, and I mean me for one.
I'm not.
I'm not going out to dinner,you know, very often at all and
uh, so, uh, you know the thefinancial struggle is real, so I
(55:58):
don't.
I think there's, um, if you can, it's great, because this is
the months those businessesreally need your.
You know, in the summertime,when there's a lot of people
around, um, it's great, but thisis where we need our locals.
Yeah, but it's also on theserestaurants to do some cool
(56:18):
things and get people out.
You know, uh, we do triviatwice a month and it's our best
night of the month every twoweeks.
It's really cool and it's fun,but you can't do that.
Every night it's packed andRange Riders are doing some
really cool things to get peopleout.
Um, range riders doing somereally cool things to get people
(56:39):
out.
Um, yeah, it's, you know it'son the restaurants a little bit
to get, you know, make peoplewant to come out this time of
year.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
I think it's it.
I, from my perspective, it ison the community too, and and
this is our time to engage withthe restaurants, because in the
summertime it can be tough therethere's lots and lots of
tourists, there's lots and lotsof tourists, there's lots, lots
of people there it feels likelike it's not really my home
right now, like if I show up toterminal gravity in this in the
summertime, july, like I, Idon't really fit in here.
(57:12):
Yeah, but if I go there infebruary, if I go there in march
, I do, and you know I, I knoweverybody that works there, if I
haven't been there in threeyears, the waitress is still
going to know which glass ismine.
That's in it, you know, in acupboard behind the bar, and
(57:34):
that's a pretty special thing.
It's a pretty special thing.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
It's a pretty special thing, so I do think that it is
a responsibility of thecommunity to help keep these
restaurants of locals getoverlooked and it gets you know,
does a local really want to goto a chaos of you know, 25 kids
in the Creek?
Speaker 1 (58:07):
And uh, I love watching kids fall in that Creek
One of my favorite things.
Just watch them take absolutediggers in that Creek and start
crying.
Love it.
Speaker 2 (58:15):
Yeah, I've.
I've often thought about uhjust, you know, when you sit
down, we're no longer liable foranything.
Your kid happens to your kid.
No, but it's a wonderfulsetting, you know, it's a
beautiful setting in thesummertime for families.
But yeah, we get busy and thenwe get slow.
(58:36):
You know it's hard toconstantly working on different
things, to try to improve onthose things.
But you know, and then in thewintertime it's hard to keep two
or three people on full time.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:51):
You know so.
Okay, if somebody is going tocome down to Terminal Gravity
(59:12):
and they're going to order onebeer and one food item that will
make a lasting impression today.
What's it going to be Got to gowith the Six Ranch Burger?
Well, hang on, I mean you gotto go with the Six Ranch Burger,
but we also offer bison fromStangles.
Yeah, which is a.
Those are our two proteinoptions for red meat.
Both good choices, both goodchoices and amazing, like every
(59:35):
time you know.
So I classic six-inch burgerwith, you know, pepper jack.
I will say our sides havealways been a little rough.
You can have tortilla chipswith salsa or kettle chips I
generally do the kettle chipsand beer.
(59:56):
If you've never tried our beer,I think the ESG across the line
is our easiest, most likablebeer in the county.
Not popular in Portland at all.
Like we sell very little ESG inPortland but we sell twice as
(01:00:17):
much ESG than any other beer wehave on tap.
Interesting, so it is very muchthe locals' beer.
What's Portland's deal?
Just not into Goldens, you knowLove their IPAs and Golden's
just a.
I mean, think of another Goldenthat is big.
(01:00:39):
There's just not a sectorthat's big, but it's a good beer
.
It has rye in it, which is alittle different, but I enjoy it
.
I think it's great.
Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Yeah, that's going to be pretty close to my go-to
down there as well, esg, yeah.
Yeah, I'm also going to getsteak bites.
The steak bites are good Steakbites.
They hit hard.
Um, and I'm going blue cheeseon the burger.
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh, it's nice A lot of people
do.
Yeah, my son loves it, I just,I'm a can't do it.
Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
It's a divisive cheese.
Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
It is yeah, and I love all other cheeses but blue
cheese in that manner, you knowbecause that, no, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
But uh, yeah, that's gonna be my moves, because I
think it the our beef is alreadydry aged to an extent, um, and
(01:01:47):
it helps bring that out a littlebit, so I like that yeah, yeah
that's my move, all right?
Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
well, thanks, dave yeah, thanks for having me
thanks, thanks for coming up.
Look forward to uh, lookforward to meet rodeo this year,
seeing what team tg brings I'malready working out, leave me
leaving it up working on mymental game, uh, so, uh, yeah,
we uh, beware, there's a lot ofbitterness.
(01:02:15):
Here could be your year.
Yes, it's on.
Yeah, 2025 is my year.
By the way, yeah calling itright now.
Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Yeah, okay, yeah, the funniest thing, man, because
the whiting waters crew, they're, they're the, they're the
whitewater rafting guides and,um, you know, they signed up the
day before.
They showed up late and theywere close on every category and
then they won the burgercompetition, ended up winning
the whole thing and side a.
(01:02:45):
You know, those guys take thisthing very, very seriously,
especially the burger portion,and, uh, afterwards they were a
little bit brokenhearted, youknow, and they went and jumped
in the river and came back andone of these guys, uh, comes
over and he's got like asleeveless t-shirt from some
metal band and, you know, long,dark hair I believe I was there,
(01:03:08):
yeah, yeah and he lights up acigarette and he goes.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
Man, those freaking river hippies came out of
nowhere can't trust him, mancan't trust him love it thanks
again, jax bye everybody.
Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time out of
their busy lives to write areview for the show and share it
with their friends.
I'm extremely proud of howintelligent, engaged and
adventurous this audience is.
Original music for the sixranch podcast is written and
performed by justin hay.
Art for the six ranch podcastwas created by john chatelain
(01:03:50):
and digitized by cilia harlander.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you again next week.
These are stories of outdoor adventure and expert
advice from folks with callousedhands.
I'm James Nash and this is theSix Ranch Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Mr Dave Flynn.
How are you doing, sir?
I'm doing great.
Yeah, yes, thank you for havingme.
This is incredible.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Yeah, I'm stoked that you're here.
I'm stoked that you're here.
I'm trying to think back to thefirst time I met you and I feel
like it was pretty close tothis time of year.
It might've been Christmasbreak in college, so it might've
been closer to like January 1st.
Somewhere in there it wascolder than hell down on the
Grand Ronde.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Right, and you were home for college.
Yeah, and you were coming downto fish.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yep, yeah, you were looking at boosting up a little
guide operation down there,correct, and you?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
seemed like the perfect person to take it on,
but you had some other thingsgoing on.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, it's weird how that happens, isn't it?
The other things?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yep, yeah, what brought you to the Grand Ronde.
The Grand Ronde I grew up inLeGrand.
When I was about 21 years old Afriend of mine, mike Keffer,
got me into fly fishing and Ireally had no ties to LeGrand
(01:38):
family-wise.
My dad lived there when I wasin high school.
He moved on my junior year so Istayed and finished high school
.
I was just stuck there for awhile and learned to fish.
He took me to the Wenaha River.
We left Friday after work, hikeddown that night, and when I say
(02:02):
fished, I fished the uppergrand ron and a couple lakes
around the grand.
So hadn't actually caught anyreal fish yet, yeah, and got to
the winaha and started landingbig bull trout over 20 inches
and uh, never made it to troy atthat point.
But I got to the winaha and Iknew that I had to, you know,
(02:26):
spend more time there.
So consecutive weekends throughthat summer, uh, would go down,
hike down, fish the Wenaha,come back up.
And then it was rolling intoOctober and I knew the steelhead
were coming into Troy but I'dnever been yet.
So October 31st 1995, I went toTroy and stayed down there for
(02:52):
the night, fished a couple daysand just fell in love with it
Was working at a dead-end job ina trailer factory in La Grande,
which is what you did if youdidn't go to college.
Either that or you pulled greenchain at the mill, and I was
lucky enough to spend almostfive years at the trailer
factory and knew that if Ididn't get out of there then I
(03:12):
would probably never get out.
Was that Nash Trailers?
It was Terry Trailers, but Nashwas the CEO.
Gotcha, they got rid of him.
He started his own thing, and soit was just chaos for a few
years he basically came in andtook all the good talent that we
had and had a great operationout of the gate.
(03:35):
So but me as a 20 year old kid,there was a lot of
opportunities in lead positionsand things in this company that
had just been gutted.
So I got a few opportunities tokind of do everything in the
plant and was just bored andwanted to get out.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Before we get back into fly fishing, what are some
lessons you learned during thosetimes that you're using now at
Terminal Gravity?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Production number one .
Yeah, yeah, you know, uh, inthe trailer factor we got paid
on production.
You know you got your your baserate but at the end of the week
if you did really well and whennash was there we did really
well we'd get like 50 to 60percent of our paycheck again.
And you know I was making greatmoney out of high school.
And then once he left, you knowI never saw another bonus.
(04:26):
But it's about keeping thefactory moving, uh, at terminal
gravity.
It's scanning line.
You know that thing.
Just once you start it it needsto run until you're done.
And downtime is loss of beertime, just everything.
And what is terminal?
gravity uh, terminal gravitybrewing is the local brewery and
(04:49):
enterprise that has been theresince 1996.
Uh, opened by a couplebootstrapping guys that you know
brought it up as a microbreweryin the mid 90s which was for
oregon.
It wasn't full ofmicrobreweries yet, you know
there was a handful in Portland,a handful in Bend and that was
(05:09):
about it.
So it made an early start.
Their IPA, I think, won IPA ofthe Year Award in 96 or 97,
maybe, and you know, still goingtoday.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Yeah, pretty incredible.
Today, you know we, I mean youcan't go to a city and, you know
, swing a cat without hitting anew IPA.
You know, yeah, but at thattime that wasn't a normal thing
at all.
You know those big IPAs thatthe Pacific Northwest became
(05:45):
known for, that started here.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, it did, and it's uh carried on and uh,
there's been hundreds andhundreds of brewery scents and
uh, I think this is the firstyear that uh, more breweries
closed than actually opened inOregon.
Really, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So what's happening why?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
is that occurring?
I think people are drinkingless beer.
Number one, A lot of differentoptions between cider and
seltzer and, you know, less fatoptions.
A lot of people are justdrinking less.
Saturation in the market withbreweries is huge.
It's not an extremelyprofitable business at all.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
What are some of the biggest struggles?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Being, you know, this far away from your marketplace.
I mean Portland historicallyhas been our biggest marketplace
.
So just getting your beer there, getting all of our packaged
goods brought here to make cansof beer from Portland, so just
you know, being further awayfrom the hubs make it tough.
(06:56):
You know our brewery hasn'tgrown in 10, 15 years probably.
You know we're just kind ofGrown in 10, 15 years probably
you know it's kind of Grown inwhat way?
Grown in barrels of productionper year.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
So like your capacity , yeah, like 2008 was the most
beer we ever made.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, and funny, 2020 was the second most beer we
ever made.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
So recession, depression, 2020 was wild and
there's so many growing painsthat are left over in industry
from that and, whether it's beeror guns or ammunition or
whatever, there's a lot ofspending that was going on in
(07:46):
certain sectors and in othersectors there was no spending at
all.
So you had businesses thatexploded, businesses that fell.
I was definitely part of abusiness that fell during that
time because they shut downguiding very, very hard and they
shut down boat, boat launches,boat ramps Couldn't do it.
(08:08):
They actually reopened stripclubs in Oregon before they
before they allowed guidingagain.
So funny to me and you know I Ipivoted into other things and
it's all good.
But yeah, I also saw a lot ofbusinesses who made a bunch of
money have the expectation thatthey were going to continue
(08:32):
making that amount of money, andif you've ever worked in an
industry like agriculture, youknow that whenever prices are
good, bad times are coming next.
You know that whenever pricesare good, bad times are coming
next.
So it was really interesting tome that so many businesses got
caught off guard because by thetime 2022 rolled around, they're
(08:53):
like a whole crap.
We had all this spend plannedand now nobody's buying like
they were in 2020.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Absolutely.
For us, we have a very limitedinside seating capacity.
So Natalie Millard that wasrunning the place at the time
decided she wanted to buy abunch of wall tents and stick
them up.
And you know, I've been in anoutfitter before and I'm just
like, yeah, you're kind of crazyand I don't know.
(09:23):
And uh, our best winter ever.
It was awesome.
I love the wall tent so much.
They were great.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Uh, a little propane heater in the corner.
You were there with your ownpeople.
I mean drinking beer and eatingfood in a wall tent.
That's some of the best partsof hunting.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
It is, and it's interesting to see at a
restaurant level to be able tosee.
When we first started out weput a bunch up but we didn't
have all of our own yet, so wehad borrowed one from Dub
Darneel, you know outfitter inJoseph Creek, and there's two
bloody handprints on the ceilingof it.
(10:03):
I'm just like, yeah, this isWall, this is yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Willow County.
Welcome to Willow County.
You know this is also I don'tknow.
I think we're an interestingfood culture here, like a fairly
unique food culture even, youknow, outside of beer and stuff
like that.
We've got some some goodrestaurants here and we've got a
lot of people that care a hugeamount not only about how that
(10:27):
food gets plated and served butwhere the ingredients are
sourced.
And you know there's some niceplaces here, but there's not a
single restaurant in WallowaCounty that I wouldn't feel
comfortable walking into if Ihad a substantial amount of
either blood or cow shit on meand it would be okay, part of
(10:51):
the deal.
No, nobody would look twice,unless they were from out of
town.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I love that for us.
Yeah, just uh, no corked, youknow.
Boots on the floors please.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, does anybody still?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
wear corked logging boots.
No fishing, though.
Oh yeah, they're not corked,but spiked yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Do you remember ever coming over and seeing like the
little store in the 90s?
Yeah, yeah.
So all the loggers wore corkedboots, right With spikes all
over them, and it was perfectlyacceptable to go into this
convenience storeers were corkedboots right with spikes all
over them, and it was perfectlyacceptable to go into this
convenience store with yourcorked boots.
And it had a wood floor thathad been perforated by you know
(11:32):
a hundred years of loggers goingin there to get coffee in the
morning.
And that floor was so coolbecause it was just so spiked up
, that is cool.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I don't remember that specifically, but that is, that
is cool, yeah uh, yeah, thecorked wading boots, man, that's
, that's another one.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
The metal they put in those things just is the
destroyer of worlds.
It is.
It kills everything.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
yeah, yeah, uh, and I run rafts a lot, so I mean I
try to just stick with felt.
Yeah, but We've got slipperyrivers.
Yes, very much, and you know itdoesn't take one person going
down in October, november andthe day's over.
Yeah, you know.
Yeah totally, and you're fouror five miles away from the
(12:15):
takeout.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, Like it's a borderline survival situation at
that point.
Yes, it's.
Not only is it slick, but it'scold.
But whether it's ice or justthe consistency shape of our
rocks, that little bit of slimethat gets on them at certain
times of year, these areslipperier rivers than a lot of
places I've fished.
Yeah, yeah, Slip strips andfalls.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, I had two clients in October go down this
year and luckily it was, youknow, 90 degrees, yeah yeah, and
just dripped down and got dry.
But that happens, you know,this time of year and it's no
fun.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
How do you maintain your mental health while guiding
steelhead fishermen?
Whew, because I couldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, I'm pretty easy it.
Yeah, I'm I'm pretty easy going.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
You know, and I think that, uh, I'm probably too easy
going, right?
Uh, I remember, I remember youknow guiding with you several
times and you know us sharingclients back and forth, and you
know us sharing clients back andforth and you know, you just
telling this guy, you're justlike every time you got a man,
(13:29):
you got a man and you would tellhim all day, and I think you
were just frustrated and, uh, Ijust told him a few times and he
just didn't do it, and so Ijust let him roll for the day.
You know, I feel like I can fixwhat I can fix, but there's
sometimes there's just somethings with certain people that
you, just you can't and if Itook that on myself as a
(13:52):
responsibility to fix, Iwouldn't.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, I wouldn't do it.
Yeah, the way I guided 10 yearsago, 15 years ago, was so
different from how I guide nowand it's something that I've.
I talk about a lot and I'llcontinue to, because it was the
single biggest lesson I learnedin guiding In my early days.
I was trying to give people thetrip that I wanted if I was a
(14:18):
client, you know, and that would, that would mean at that time,
like doing my very best to fishthat water well, to have the
maximum opportunity, to catchthe most the biggest fish, to
improve constantly, things likethat.
And that's me.
So I was imposing what I wouldlike on my clients and some of
(14:41):
these guys don't care about that, like they just want to hang
out and fish, and some of themdon't want to fish at all, they
just want to sit in the boat orread a book, or they're just
looking forward to hitting campthat night and pulling the cork
out of a bottle of wine andwatching the river go past them.
And I think that that's lovelyand that's wonderful and I want
to help people achieve theirversion of success.
(15:02):
But I made some mistakes atthat time where I was just
frustrated because peopleweren't trying to improve.
And that's on them, it's theirtrip, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, and I think it's accepting that a little bit
.
Uh, you and I did a a woundedwarriors trip years ago and I
remember there was a lateaddition to the trip and the guy
just didn't want to fish and hewas in your boat and I just
remember your frustration.
You're just like, yeah, there'ssuch great opportunity right
here in front of you.
You just gotta, you know, takethat rod and listen to me.
(15:40):
And uh, for whatever reason,just wasn't his thing.
Yeah and uh, it's.
I just don't think those arethings that you can fix.
Sometimes, you know, it's justlike every other aspect of the
trip was perfect for this personand just like, uh, yeah, and
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, yeah, that's okay.
In that case I I rememberspecifically thinking that he
had some fears that was holdinghim back and that I felt like he
wanted to fish but just had avariety of fears and I was
trying to figure out a mechanismfor helping him get over that.
(16:19):
But yeah, there's also there'sdifferent folks that that I
think your profession reallyinforms the way you approach fly
fishing.
Doctors are some of the veryhardest people to teach anything
(16:40):
to and there's such authoritiesin their day to day their.
Their word is like gold.
You know you can't teach adoctor to mend.
It's impossible.
And mending is is editing, it'sadmitting that your initial
approach was wrong and thatyou've got to do something now
(17:01):
to make it a little bit better,and you're probably going to
have to continue to do thatduring this drift.
You're going to have to dosomething now to make it a
little bit better, and you'reprobably going to have to
continue to do that during thisdrift.
You're going to have to do itagain, the next cast, and if you
don't do it, the initialproblem is going to get worse.
And that's probably notsomething that they experience
very much in their day-to-day inthe medical field.
You know they're going to firethat first shot based off of all
(17:24):
the information that they haveand all of their experience, and
you know they're going to comeback after a time and see if
that needs to be corrected.
But it's not this constantthing.
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, two of my favorite clients and my longest
clients are these two doctorsand it's father my longest
clients are these two doctorsand its father's son the son
recently retired orthopedicsurgeon from Seattle, and the
dad long-term retired but wasthe orthopedic surgeon for the
(17:58):
Seattle Seahawks in the 80s Okay, and went to the Pro Bowl twice
.
Wow, if you didn't know, yeah,you get the surgeons, get to go
too.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
They deserve it Right .
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, anyway, it's my favorite thing.
I'm really more of a mediatorbetween these two rather than
you know they won't let me touchtheir flies or their line.
Yeah, I don't offer anyextraction.
The son is just like you needto get dad down further in that
hole and get him casting out alittle more upstream.
(18:30):
And you know, and it's amazingwatching these two, they just
it's a battle, yeah, two, youknow that just fight.
And the old man, they each packa spay rod and a nymph rod and,
you know, do the appropriatething.
So yeah, it's fun.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
That is fun.
One trip that I had that wasjust absolutely hysterical to me
, that I ended up just kind ofassuming the position of the
oarsman and not doing much else.
I had these twin brothers whowere like in their early
eighties and I'm convinced thatwhenever you get guys together
(19:13):
who are the same age, they allact like 16 year olds.
And these guys definitely didact like 16 year olds and they
had that like brotherlycompetitiveness.
But they were also twins,identical twins, and they wanted
to catch each other's fish allday long, which meant casting to
the same exact spot and hooks,hook, stuff, as it turns out,
(19:35):
including other hooks.
So it was a tangle for theentire stretch of the willow
river because these guys werejust constantly trying to catch
each other's fish and it washilarious and I just kept
thinking about, like theirmother, and the frustrations
this is what a fishing trip islike knuckleheads, but it was so
(19:58):
funny I just laughed the entiretime and uh, yeah, I don't know
.
You just get some reallywonderful experiences like
stepping into the role of guidein these family groups,
sometimes in these close friendgroups.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty important, uh, especially
not to ruin a trip for otherclients that are around, you
know, I mean, yeah, families aretough.
So a story that I want to hearuh, you and I both got this call
years ago.
Um, there's a raft trip inhell's canyon.
Mike baird hits his head andthey don't have enough guides to
(20:39):
move the party, so they have tobasically overnight right there
until they get an extra guidejet boated up so that they can
move.
Yeah, and you get the call andyou're going in and, uh, I
always thought about just likeyou're kind of the hero, right,
(20:59):
like the whole party can't move,these people are stranded until
they get another guy that canmove.
Tell me about that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
So I definitely did think that it was also the 4th
of July.
I hadn't gotten to celebrate a4th of July in many, many years
and I was excited about beinghome for it.
But these guys are jammed updown there.
I'm going to do the right thingand go and I thought, yeah, you
know they're going to be,they're going to be pumped,
pumped to see me.
(21:28):
I'm, you know, sacrificingsomething here.
I'm going to get to go helpthese guys finish out the trip.
They were below all the majorwhitewater at that point, so it
was just going to be easy streetfor a couple of days on the on
kind of a milder section ofhell's canyon, and when I caught
up with them they were floating, they were on the river.
They'd figured it out, theydidn't need me at all oh, really
(21:51):
, yeah, they didn't need me evena little bit.
So I went from like thinkingthat I was doing a good thing
and like being the hero to like.
Oh, I could have been at homelike eating hamburgers.
What?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
do they like roll a vote and put some people on the
gear vote or what?
I think that they just had.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
they had enough folks like they'd figured it out,
okay, and I was a little bitbutthurt about it, honestly.
And Jordan Manley, when we gotto camp that night, he's like,
hey, man, like what's the deal?
And I sort of explained my, myperspective to him and he said,
you know, we we figured out howto, how to do this without you,
(22:33):
but we also wanted you herebecause everybody was a little
bit stressed out because thetrip leader just gotten hurt.
We went through all this bigwhitewater and we, we just like
you and we wanted you to be hereand thought that you'd want to
be here too.
And, uh, that totally dissolved,like any feelings that I'd had
about about myself and uh, itmade me realize how important
(22:56):
that guide community is,especially on those expedition
trips, and and how mucheverybody's there to support
each other.
Yeah, and from that pointforward, I just had a wonderful
time and and I so appreciatedJordan for you know, having that
really honest conversation withme and in a way that was was uh
, just acceptable and that Icould, that I could take it in
(23:20):
and feel it.
Jordan's awesome about thatstuff.
Yeah, yeah, that's good, yeah,but uh, no, that was a, that was
a super wild whitewater year.
I think every, every guideended up flipping that year um,
except for me and paul, maybe.
Wow, yeah, yeah, brutal, brutalwhitewater year.
(23:41):
What was that?
2016, 2017?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, right in there.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
And then I got motorized after that and said
I'm done with the rubber, I'mgoing to go upstream in a jet
boat.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
You know there's always been that.
You know the jet boat versusrafting.
You know debacle, which youknow.
We're really all partners inkeeping the river system open
and good.
But I love that you get in abind on a raft and a jet boat
comes and helps you.
You know we had EnterpriseSenior Trip two years ago.
(24:22):
Yeah, we are.
We do the lower section down toPittsburgh and then jet back up
and we had to take.
We had to go through the rapidstwice because there's only one
jet boat operator that could gothrough the big stuff.
We're sitting there waiting forsome boats come through Wild
(24:43):
Sheep.
One of them flips over thefirst one, the second one flips
over and there's three moreboats in this party.
These are rafts, these arerafts and they just eddy out.
You know they don't even followtheir crew.
And uh, this jet boat operatedfrom the idaho side.
He just is like hey man um, youknow, load those people up on my
(25:04):
tail, got the people rath'scompletely flipped over and he
just pushes it with the front ofhis jet boat to get it over,
you know, to the bank.
Yeah, get those two people off,go and do the same thing with
the next one and, uh, it's justit, I'll tell you.
I mean, you go through Wildshipupside down, you know, granted,
(25:28):
it's not that far away, yeah,and these guys were not going to
flip those boats over, so it'spretty cool for everybody to
work together down there.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, hells is interesting and I think this
year in Hells is going to be abrand new type of year and I'll
explain why.
But up until this point there'sno road access, there are only
a handful of airstrips.
There's only a handful ofplaces that you can even get a
helicopter in, no cell service.
(26:00):
Satellite phones are sketchy atbest.
Inreaches take forever andthey're a relatively new
technology.
Not forever, but you might be15 minutes between communication
, because it's the steepest anddeepest canyon in North America,
so it's hard to get a satellitesignal out.
(26:23):
Have understood for as long aspeople have been in that canyon
that if anybody has a problemyou have an obligation to help
them in any way that you can,and I've helped people down
there, I've gotten help downthere, and there's never an
expectation of like oh now youowe me something or whatever.
(26:44):
It's just, you just do it.
There's a huge tide because ofthe dam right and you never
really know how much waterthey're going to be letting out
or holding back.
And just a couple of years agoI tied my boat up.
I'd gone and checked it threeor four times throughout the
night, which is my normalprocedure when I'm down there.
(27:04):
When I'm down there because I'mterrified of you.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Know, I don't know some kind of creature chewing
through my rope and my boatfloating away.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
You know I've usually got it tied up at a couple of
points and I'm also checking tomake sure that it's still in the
water and that they haven'tshut the dam off too much.
Well, between four o'clock andsix o'clock in the morning they
shut it down and when I woke upthe boat was completely dry.
So I've got 23 feet of jetboats sitting on the rocks right
.
It's like, oh boy, this is, thisis not great, but they're going
(27:35):
to let water out again.
They always do.
Well, the whole day goes bythey don't let water out.
Whole night goes by, they don'tlet water out.
The next morning boat's stilldry, they're not letting water
out.
I was like huh, and I've got acouple buddies with me there,
like we've got a schedule.
We you know, you know we've gotto get out at some point and, uh
(27:56):
, the number of boats thatstopped to see if we're okay, if
they needed to pull us off therocks or whatever, was every
single boat.
Yeah, every single boat thatcame up or down the river, came
over and was like you guys goodand like, yeah, we're good.
And on the last day the watercame up a little bit and we were
able to get it shoved off andeverything was dandy.
(28:18):
Yeah, I love that.
The reason I think it's goingto be different this year is
because now we have satellitetext on iPhones.
Yep, you can text picturesthrough satellite on iPhone.
Now we have mobile Starlink,which is increasingly common.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
So for the first year ever, people are going to be
able to go to Hell's Canyon andstream Netflix.
I've never even thought of itthat way.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
You know, I'm thinking of rescue help
communication, but uh, yeah, nokidding um, yeah one of these,
one of these last vestiges of offreedom from connectivity in
north america is no longer thatway.
Yeah, it's interesting.
That is interesting.
(29:14):
So the good old days justbecame that, you know?
Yes, it's changing right now,like this is the year that it's
happening.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Which you know it's bound to happen, I guess.
Um, I feel thankful that wewere able to see the other side.
You know, before it allhappened, I, in the winter of
1996, I had the opportunity togo to the idaho side of the
snake river, in get a creek outof, like Joseph Plains White
(29:49):
Bird area and winter some cowsdown there.
Oh, you did.
And best winter of my life, youknow, it was so exciting.
You know, I lived down on abouta mile off the Snake, up Getty
Creek, right across fromBeamers' Lodge, right across
from, uh, beemers' Lodge, yeah,and um so this farmer, he had,
(30:14):
you know, his summer place uptop and his canyon place in the
bottom, and you know they'reabout three miles apart, but you
know the road takes, you know,an hour and 15 minutes to get up
out of it's, it's brutal.
Um so in one of his pastures hebuilt these big rock jacks and
(30:34):
with a big pole on top, you know, just super tall one, and he
ran him a phone line down to thecanyon and um so, every once in
a while the cows would, youknow, rubber rock jack down and
you'd have to go, you know, fixit.
But I had a phone down there.
I got my mail by the jet boatonce a week and I could call
(30:57):
Beamers and say, hey, I need acase of beer and some dog food,
and they would throw it on,deliver it.
And I'd write them a check atthe thing so they would front
the money.
Throw it on, deliver it.
I'd write them a check at thething so they would front the
money.
And you know it's like wow.
You know, I got to experience athing in time that you know
maybe it'll still exist forever.
(31:18):
You know the mail service downthere, but having them go
shopping for you too andbringing you what you needed,
yeah, it was such a coolexperience, and mail is still
delivered by jet boat down there.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
US mail Right.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, all the way to Sheep Creek, right?
I believe so, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting because a lotof the Idaho side got to remain
private land.
They didn't take that side witheminent domain, but Oregon
caved man.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
They caved all the way to the state line.
Yeah, it's really sad knowingthe families affected by that.
You know, like before Iactually knew these families,
I'm like, oh yeah, well, itshould be, you know, a preserved
area.
It's really cool and everybodyshould get to experience it.
And when you think about howthey just took it, yeah.
(32:13):
And they had no choice and justchanged lifestyles.
And I understand now,especially being down there, and
I understand how those familiesfeel a little bit.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
You know a lot about rangeland and range science.
What do you think the impacthas been and what do you see it
going forward for the removal oflivestock from the canyon and
now a significant reduction ofthe wild ungulate populations?
(32:52):
I just was doing some researchon this yesterday.
So the management objective forelk in in the Snake River unit
is 4,000.
We're we're under 2,000 now andcalf recruitment has been in
the single digits.
The bighorns are getting sicklike um.
(33:13):
You know the.
The wildlife's not not doinggreat down there.
What, what do you see like how?
How has it changed sincelivestock was was removed from
the canyon and and how's thatgoing to affect the canyon
moving?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
forward.
I think the increase for firedanger with not utilizing those
canyons is huge.
We're devastated by fire everyyear now, on one side of the
(33:50):
county or the other we're hit byit, and I mean that fire is the
thing that's really changingthe landscape.
I just think that there'sbetter ways.
I think there are responsiblepeople that can utilize public
(34:12):
ground really well and I think,you know, with um, the new
technologies that you know thatthese ranchers are experimenting
with are really cool.
I mean being able to, uh, youknow, uh, put collars on cattle
and turn them out, and draw yourlines from a computer of where
they can and can't go.
I mean and electric fencingbasically uh, electric fencing,
(34:34):
but the satellite, there it's,but your cows are wearing it,
yeah, so you're not, you know,building electric fence anymore,
they're just setting up theseparameters with these towers
that reflect.
You know, know that it's thedog technology right, adapted to
livestock, and I think it'sgreat.
(34:57):
I think it shows a lot ofpromise for being able to, you
know, use ground appropriatelyand you can show on satellite
mapping on where these animalsare and aren't and you can prove
that it was, you know, the elkin the riparian zone versus your
cattle.
I mean, it's, it's a differenttool now that we we've never had
(35:18):
and uh, yeah, it's prettyinteresting it.
I think that with some of this,there might be more
opportunities in the future touh, some of this, there might be
more opportunities in thefuture to uh, yeah, to do it.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
I mean probably not in this county, but it'll take a
little while.
Yep, it'll take a little while,but as a national recreation
area it is designated multi-useand there's no reason why they
can't be allowing grazing onthose allotments.
Yeah, but no matter what theForest Service does, they get
sued and it makes it hard.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Exactly, and that's why you know, out in Troy, in
the North End, you know we're onthe Umatilla and so they.
I feel like they have betterpractices out there and are a
little more open just becausethey're out of the threat of of
being sued for anything they do.
Yeah, you know, I mean, I, uh,I'm on the natural resource
(36:17):
conservation council and I cansee how the forest service just
gets hamstrung into doingnothing.
Yeah, you know, um they, theycan't really win either way.
Yeah, um, yeah, um they, theycan't really win either way.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, um, yeah, it's tough, it is a tough situation,
it's a super tough situation anda lot of people want to throw
stones, but it it kind of islike that If they do something
in any one direction, they'reprobably going to get sued.
If they do nothing nothingeventually they get sued for not
doing anything yeah, and youknow you, just you whoop on
somebody like that and the riskaversion that comes up, uh, just
(36:57):
really prevents, preventsprogress.
It's tough, tough, tough.
So what is what does nrac do?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
uh, natural resource conservation council um your dad
obviously served.
Uh, they have some players fromthe nature conservancy odf um
oregon department forestryoregon department of forestry.
Um will our resources?
Uh, you know, every, everyplayer in the natural resource
(37:29):
game has a seat at the table.
Basically, there's a few peoplelike myself that are just
citizens and businesses that arethere, but it's, you know, a
monthly check in of whateverybody's doing.
And I think the most importantthing about it is you know a
(37:50):
monthly check-in of whateverybody's doing.
And I think the most importantthing about it is all of these
people sitting around the tablekind of sharing their plan,
which I feel for years had beena shortfall in all these
agencies working together inwith the community and I don't
(38:11):
know.
I just think that there's.
I think it's just good having apolicy.
I mean, I watch your dad, youknow, just straight call the
Forest Service guy out Like Iwant to know about this, and you
know.
And then they, you know, givewhat they know.
(38:33):
But sometimes you have to beasked and this is a forum to be
able to try to get theinformation out to the community
.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, there's a difficult balance between
committee collaboration,stakeholders and then people who
are acting in an authoritariancapacity without any type of
collaboration or oversight.
Have you ever heard that acamel is a horse by committee?
(39:08):
Have you ever heard that?
No, but I love it.
Yeah, so like that's how thecamel got built.
You just had too many peoplelike trying to, you know, add
their pieces to it and then youget this conglomeration of
things that looks like it's madeout of spare parts.
Yeah, yeah, adapted.
(39:29):
Yeah Well, yeah, somewhat.
I just read that they're lookingat these major major solar
projects in the Sahara.
Speaking of camels, yeah, oneof the things that I find
interesting about tinkering withthat zone and a lot of people
(39:52):
don't know this, this is a funfact is the origin of every
single hurricane comes from onesingle point in Africa, and it
is dust from the Sahara thathits the Atlantic Ocean at
Timbuktu.
And if you look at maps ofhurricanes, every single one of
(40:14):
them comes from this onespecific point in Africa, from
that dust, which is what thewater is able to form around and
, you know, become a cloud andthen travels across the Atlantic
, goes up into, you know, theGulf of America or wherever and
decides you know which piece ofland it's going to stomp on
(40:44):
piece of land it's gonna stompon.
But I I have concerns abouttinkering with a place like that
, that is, is the generator ofall these monster hurricanes.
Yeah, yeah, uh.
Have you ever read the bookskeletons of the sahara?
No, oh, that's a.
That's a great one.
It's a lot about camels, butit's about some sailors who get
shipwrecked there and getcaptured and taken as slaves and
(41:09):
they have to survive on amountsof fluid that you would think
would kill absolutely anybody,and a lot of what they were
allowed to drink as slaves wascamel urine.
Um, wow, really, yeah, and uh,it, it.
It is one of the the mostincredible stories of survival
(41:29):
I've ever heard.
There's been several, severalbooks written about it, but I
think skeletons of the Sahara isis one of the best, and it's a
good one on audible too.
If you're that kind of guy,which I am yeah, do you read
much?
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Nope, I'm a bit dyslexic.
I mean, I can read, I can makeit out, but, man, I cannot sit
and finish a book.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Yeah, do you like to listen to them?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
I do.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah, I prefer that much, but I just, you know I
don't find the time to do it.
I would do it.
I used to road trip back andforth to Portland a lot.
I would listen to books, butyou know I don't do it a lot.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
I vaguely remember you at one point spending almost
all of your money on a fly rod.
Yeah, tell me about thatportion of your life that was my
first.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
So I moved here in May of 96 to Troy and I had
everything that I owned in a1973 Volkswagen van, like faded
Kermit, the Frog color, but itwas a Westfalia, so it was the
pop top, had the oven and allthat.
Bougie, yeah, bougie, yeah,bougie, till you roll into Troy
(42:44):
in 1996.
And they are like what, son,tell us about Troy a little bit.
Oh, all right, yeah, so Troy inthat day.
It was kind of cool because thebig, mega ranches they're not
(43:08):
mega ranches, but the 10,000acre ranches weren't all put
together yet.
There were families.
You had 14 kids in the schoolat that point.
There still is a school in Troy.
There's now currently two and Ibelieve it's one family, two
students, yeah, so it's one fellswoop away from, you know, not
having a school.
Yeah, but yeah, there's 14 kids, there's quite a few people.
(43:32):
The town is kind of hopping,you know.
A lot of people are floatingthe Grand Ronde, a lot of people
are pulling out at Troy, a lotof people are stopping and
getting burgers and it was justkind of interesting.
It was a lot more people aroundfor the summertime.
(43:53):
Mark Hemstreet, who owns theShiloh Inns, at that point in
time he had this family ofworkers, about 30 people, uh,
called the amigos, and theywould.
They managed all of his timberon the ranch.
They maintained all of hisbuildings.
(44:13):
They came and took care of allthe grounds in troy.
And, uh, every saturday youknow I know there's a lot of
things about Markem Streetpeople are not like stoked about
but every Saturday night hewould pay full bill for all
these families to come down toTroy and eat what they want,
(44:34):
drink what they want and go home.
And he left the workers at therestaurant which I was working
at, the restaurant, 20% tipRight and like these are big
nights, these guys are drinkingpitchers of beer and having
tequila and there was music andit was kind of a fun scene the
first summer there.
(44:56):
And pretty soon the amigosdisbanded.
You know, he stopped hiringworkers and he leased the place
out and yeah, so trade has kindof changed.
A lot of ranch consolidation.
So where you had families on160 or 240 acres, now one person
(45:22):
would come in and they wouldbuy it all and so the families
are gone.
You know, you still have allthe old housing up there but
nobody's living there.
So you on grouse flat north oftroy you had, you know, 25
houses up there that had nopopulation.
You just have a few ranchershanging on up there and uh, you
(45:42):
know, the consolidation of allthese lands kind of kind of
killed the, the community vibefor the area a little bit.
Yeah, um and uh yeah, there'snot a whole lot to do down there
for for work.
So I get it.
The logging's dried up, thelogging used to.
There were mills in Troy, threeon the north side, two on the
(46:07):
other side.
There were mills everywhere andthere were population centers
back then.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, so you moved there in 1996 in your van.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Oh, in my van and I roll in in your van.
Oh, in my van, I roll in.
I have a Bucks bag pontoon, oneman pontoon, but on the top of
it too.
And, lucky enough, this fellowthat I had met, rick George, had
a house down there.
He had a house and a cabin,they had drug across the river
(46:40):
from the mill site and he said,hey, if you, you know, got this
place, if you can live behind itin your van for a while.
And I'm, you know, 30 feet awayfrom the Wenaha River.
There's no other houses nearbyor neighbors, and it was just,
it was pretty epic, and I fishedmore that summer than you know
(47:06):
I've ever fished in my life andit really cemented it that I
want to be there and tell meabout the fly rod.
The fly rod, here we go.
I'm working at the restaurant,I'm making tip money, I'm a
server.
All of a sudden I'm working atthe restaurant, I'm making tip
money, I'm a server, all of asudden, and I have no Amazon or
any of that back then.
There's nowhere to spend it,there's no internet yet for us,
(47:36):
bob Lamb's Joseph Fly Shop inJoseph, oregon.
And yeah, I spent a thousandbucks on a Winston rod and an
Abel reel Still have it allright.
I mean, you know, at the timeI'm just like wow, that's a lot
of money.
But you know, advertised out,you know it's a good investment,
(47:57):
yeah, great rod, yeah, buthonestly I fish a lot of cheap
rods now, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
I mean, I break so many and I, the cheap rods, have
gotten so much better.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
They are so good.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
A cheap rod in the 90s was going to be some kind of
fiberglass debacle that youknow flexed all the way past the
cork and they were so slow,that you could eat a sandwich
while you're waiting on yourback cast.
Uh, yeah, they're.
They weren't great.
The cheap rods today are veryhigh performance, but they're
(48:32):
still nothing quite like ahigh-end rod either.
For people who know if, if youfish very much, as soon as you
pick one up you're like, oh mygosh, like it feels like a
living thing that's connected toyou, yeah, yeah, and whether
that's, you know, sage orwinston or yeah, whoever else.
Uh, there's some reallywonderful fly rods out there
(48:55):
loop.
You know.
I've got some loop rods that Ireally love, but as far as just
the feeling of of a great rodthat you just, I don't know,
there's some kind of electricitythat happens as soon as it's in
your hand and that fly linestarts to load up.
For me, there's still justnothing quite like a Winston.
Yeah, yeah, they're prettyspecial.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
They really are.
Yeah, that was my first Winstonand my last actually.
I've never, uh, yeah, haven'tstarted having kids and just my
priorities changed.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
That'll change the game a little bit.
Yep, yeah.
So at what point are you goingto feel like you're an old timer
?
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Well, I was thinking about that because in May I will
have been here 29 years andthey told me when I got to
Willow County that you had to behere 30 years before you were
local.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Before you were local .
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Yeah, yeah, so I figure I'm getting my non-native
local license next year.
Nice Congratulations, yeah,which feels good.
It's hard.
It takes a lot to make thathappen.
Nice Congratulations, yeah,which feels good.
It's hard, it's a.
It takes a lot to make thathappen.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Yeah, I, I haven't spent 30 years here.
I'm 38 years old.
You know this has been my, myhome, my whole life.
But I've spent so much timeliving in other places, whether
that was, you know, a foreignexchange or college, or the
military, et cetera.
You know I'm not over the30-year mark yet.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Yeah, so you might be more local than me.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
The roots run deep, you know.
But no, I remember first seeingthis area.
I came and stayed with my dadin like sixth grade and he lived
in La Grande and we went up toWallowa Lake and there was
(50:51):
go-karts and mini golf and thiswhole world I've never seen
before and I was just like, oh,this place is cool, like I want
to live here someday.
This is great.
Yeah, and you know, never wasable to do it through the
teenage years, but I knew I wascoming back here Like there's
just something very special.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
What's your 2025 meet rodeo plan?
Oh God, All right.
You thought you had it thisyear.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
I thought you had it it's oh, man, man, I can't
believe you brought that up.
Yeah, so the meat rodeo.
This is our uh second or thirdyear, right, yeah?
something like that, yeah, soand yeah, uh, terminal gravity
has lost twice the range rider.
One side a won the first time,side side a won the first time
(51:40):
range rider.
So every time I go to the rangerider, one side a won the first
time, side side a won the firsttime range rider.
So every time I go to the rangerider I look at this buckle,
you know, staring at me on thewall and I just I, you know, was
trying to bring our a game andum, and then why?
we dominated every, every pieceof it, except for the burger
(52:00):
cooking which we were last.
I'm not even sure that it was.
I think it was totally raw.
And yeah, I think it's thatclassless thing of celebrating
too early.
Not that I was celebrating, butI had a right, I had a beer,
(52:21):
feel good, like I think this,you know.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
one more step but uh, your son won the burger eating
competition in the mostmasculine way possible.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Yeah, he, uh, he's been practicing all year.
Right, he's the ringer, likebring it on, what do you guys
have?
Yeah, no, his mother wasdisgusted, but yeah, the kid's a
winner.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah, I mean, you guys dominated trivia.
You won the cocktailcompetition.
Yeah, yeah, everybody was likealready visually wearing that
belt buckle in your minds,everybody was already visually
wearing that belt.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Buckle in your minds.
It's what's so cool.
And these newcomers, theWinding Waters crew, who I you
know, hats off, love them allthey showed up late.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
I tried to bring it up on a technicality.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
I'm like, hey, you were like 10 minutes late to
even start the competition, butthey did it.
They had a great burger and macand cheese and they were a fun
new competitor to the Meat Rodeo.
The thing that you guys havedone with that is really cool.
I love it.
It's uniquely for me justseeing the other restaurants
(53:39):
that are using the products andyou know and really also, yeah,
supporting those guys, becauseit's uh, being in direct sales
and having people that supportyour product is huge man
absolutely it's really big,rather than being out there
trying to find new customersevery week and trying to.
(54:02):
You know, that's just not asustainable method.
Well, all these jobs are.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
they're impossible to do on your own, whether that is
you know, creating beer inNortheast Oregon that you know
is is unique, using only handfulof ingredients and then trying
to distribute that from a placethat's difficult to distribute
from, when you have competitionfrom so many other places that
(54:31):
have it logistically easier toraising cattle in a place with a
brutal winter climate, lots ofpredators again, more, more
logistics issues.
We need each other to besuccessful and I think it's
awesome and it's hard, but we'redoing it.
(54:52):
We're making it Skin of ourteeth year to year.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
you know, right, yeah , and that's yeah.
That's what it's about for us.
Just hang on now.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yeah, right, you're you're here for the ride, and
that that's really what februaryis all about.
I want to ask you one other oneother thing here do do the
people of wallowa county have aresponsibility to show up to
places like Terminal, gravityRange Rider in the wintertime
(55:26):
and help you guys stay aliveduring during tough times when
we don't have, you know, oodlesof tourists coming through.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
You know I can't.
It's hard because financiallythere's a lot of people you just
can't, and I mean me for one.
I'm not.
I'm not going out to dinner,you know, very often at all and
uh, so, uh, you know the thefinancial struggle is real, so I
(55:58):
don't.
I think there's, um, if you can, it's great, because this is
the months those businessesreally need your.
You know, in the summertime,when there's a lot of people
around, um, it's great, but thisis where we need our locals.
Yeah, but it's also on theserestaurants to do some cool
(56:18):
things and get people out.
You know, uh, we do triviatwice a month and it's our best
night of the month every twoweeks.
It's really cool and it's fun,but you can't do that.
Every night it's packed andRange Riders are doing some
really cool things to get peopleout.
Um, range riders doing somereally cool things to get people
(56:39):
out.
Um, yeah, it's, you know it'son the restaurants a little bit
to get, you know, make peoplewant to come out this time of
year.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
I think it's it.
I, from my perspective, it ison the community too, and and
this is our time to engage withthe restaurants, because in the
summertime it can be tough therethere's lots and lots of
tourists, there's lots and lotsof tourists, there's lots, lots
of people there it feels likelike it's not really my home
right now, like if I show up toterminal gravity in this in the
summertime, july, like I, Idon't really fit in here.
(57:12):
Yeah, but if I go there infebruary, if I go there in march
, I do, and you know I, I knoweverybody that works there, if I
haven't been there in threeyears, the waitress is still
going to know which glass ismine.
That's in it, you know, in acupboard behind the bar, and
(57:34):
that's a pretty special thing.
It's a pretty special thing.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
It's a pretty special thing, so I do think that it is
a responsibility of thecommunity to help keep these
restaurants of locals getoverlooked and it gets you know,
does a local really want to goto a chaos of you know, 25 kids
in the Creek?
Speaker 1 (58:07):
And uh, I love watching kids fall in that Creek
One of my favorite things.
Just watch them take absolutediggers in that Creek and start
crying.
Love it.
Speaker 2 (58:15):
Yeah, I've.
I've often thought about uhjust, you know, when you sit
down, we're no longer liable foranything.
Your kid happens to your kid.
No, but it's a wonderfulsetting, you know, it's a
beautiful setting in thesummertime for families.
But yeah, we get busy and thenwe get slow.
(58:36):
You know it's hard toconstantly working on different
things, to try to improve onthose things.
But you know, and then in thewintertime it's hard to keep two
or three people on full time.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:51):
You know so.
Okay, if somebody is going tocome down to Terminal Gravity
(59:12):
and they're going to order onebeer and one food item that will
make a lasting impression today.
What's it going to be Got to gowith the Six Ranch Burger?
Well, hang on, I mean you gotto go with the Six Ranch Burger,
but we also offer bison fromStangles.
Yeah, which is a.
Those are our two proteinoptions for red meat.
Both good choices, both goodchoices and amazing, like every
(59:35):
time you know.
So I classic six-inch burgerwith, you know, pepper jack.
I will say our sides havealways been a little rough.
You can have tortilla chipswith salsa or kettle chips I
generally do the kettle chipsand beer.
(59:56):
If you've never tried our beer,I think the ESG across the line
is our easiest, most likablebeer in the county.
Not popular in Portland at all.
Like we sell very little ESG inPortland but we sell twice as
(01:00:17):
much ESG than any other beer wehave on tap.
Interesting, so it is very muchthe locals' beer.
What's Portland's deal?
Just not into Goldens, you knowLove their IPAs and Golden's
just a.
I mean, think of another Goldenthat is big.
(01:00:39):
There's just not a sectorthat's big, but it's a good beer
.
It has rye in it, which is alittle different, but I enjoy it
.
I think it's great.
Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Yeah, that's going to be pretty close to my go-to
down there as well, esg, yeah.
Yeah, I'm also going to getsteak bites.
The steak bites are good Steakbites.
They hit hard.
Um, and I'm going blue cheeseon the burger.
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh, it's nice A lot of people
do.
Yeah, my son loves it, I just,I'm a can't do it.
Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
It's a divisive cheese.
Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
It is yeah, and I love all other cheeses but blue
cheese in that manner, you knowbecause that, no, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
But uh, yeah, that's gonna be my moves, because I
think it the our beef is alreadydry aged to an extent, um, and
(01:01:47):
it helps bring that out a littlebit, so I like that yeah, yeah
that's my move, all right?
Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
well, thanks, dave yeah, thanks for having me
thanks, thanks for coming up.
Look forward to uh, lookforward to meet rodeo this year,
seeing what team tg brings I'malready working out, leave me
leaving it up working on mymental game, uh, so, uh, yeah,
we uh, beware, there's a lot ofbitterness.
(01:02:15):
Here could be your year.
Yes, it's on.
Yeah, 2025 is my year.
By the way, yeah calling itright now.
Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Yeah, okay, yeah, the funniest thing, man, because
the whiting waters crew, they're, they're the, they're the
whitewater rafting guides and,um, you know, they signed up the
day before.
They showed up late and theywere close on every category and
then they won the burgercompetition, ended up winning
the whole thing and side a.
(01:02:45):
You know, those guys take thisthing very, very seriously,
especially the burger portion,and, uh, afterwards they were a
little bit brokenhearted, youknow, and they went and jumped
in the river and came back andone of these guys, uh, comes
over and he's got like asleeveless t-shirt from some
metal band and, you know, long,dark hair I believe I was there,
(01:03:08):
yeah, yeah and he lights up acigarette and he goes.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
Man, those freaking river hippies came out of
nowhere can't trust him, mancan't trust him love it thanks
again, jax bye everybody.
Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time out of
their busy lives to write areview for the show and share it
with their friends.
I'm extremely proud of howintelligent, engaged and
adventurous this audience is.
Original music for the sixranch podcast is written and
performed by justin hay.
Art for the six ranch podcastwas created by john chatelain
(01:03:50):
and digitized by cilia harlander.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you again next week.
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