Old School Game Warden Stories with Bill Ables

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From hunting for Claude Dallas in the Owyhee to covert operations to catch bull elk poachers in the wilderness, Bill Ables was a tough game warden for a thirty year career in the wild country of eastern Oregon. These are the salt of the earth stories that you've come to expect from this show. Enjoy.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:07):
These are stories of outdoor adventure and expert
advice from folks with callousedhands.
I'm James Nash and this is theSix Ranch Podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Because, you know, in Oregon it's a Fish and Wildlife
Division, a Traffic Division, aCriminal Division, an.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Artisan Division.
Okay, so you were Fish andWildlife Correct my entire
career.
And when did that start myentire career and when did that?

Speaker 1 (00:45):
start.
Well, that started in 1972,actually, or 73.
Yeah, because I graduated fromOregon State in 73.
And out of 254 graduating fishand wildlife biologists, only
three of them got permanent fishand wildlife or biologist jobs,

(01:05):
and so I was searching and Iwent up to you were not one of
the three, I was not one of thethree.
Probably a long ways down thelist.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
So did you want to work as a biologist?

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Oh, by all means.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
That was my goal for many, many, many years.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
And where did that come from?
Because that's the path Istarted down in college as well,
oh really.
But as I started to get into it, and after my first year, I was
looking at the curriculum forthe years that were to come, and
very few of my classes hadanything to do with biology.
True, especially wildlifebiology.

(01:45):
You know, there is a lot ofmath, there is organic chemistry
organic chemistry too.
There just didn't seem to be abunch of stuff that was like
studying critters in the field,which is what I thought I was
getting into.
I think you got to get pastthose first two years.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
That's when you get into what I felt was the meat of
things.
Okay, you know.
No, John Ely, I don't know ifyou knew those first two years.
Yeah, that's when you get intowhat I felt was the meat of
things.
Okay, you know, no, john Ely Idon't know if you knew Craig Ely
in La Grande.
He was the ODFW regional soupYep, good friends with my
brother in Pendleton.
We were raised in Pendleton.
John Ely was the biologist,wildlife biologist over there
and I always, I and I just had a.
I loved the outdoors, loved tofish, hunt and all that fun

(02:24):
stuff, and I always wanted tocall John up and say, hey, john,
can you take this young student, this dummy, with you on just a
day's ride?
And I never did.
And I look back at that, youknow, looking at these kids
nowadays, you know, and I alwaysask them the same question have
you ever felt like you wantedto go for a ride or something
you know?
Anyway, I didn't do that, but Istill had that passion to be a

(02:49):
biologist and anyway.
So then graduated from PHA atPendleton High School and then
we went to two years there atBlue Mountain in Pendleton, as a
money thing for me and lookingback on it had I went to a big
college like Oregon State thefirst year, first year I've been
washed out, this pendleton kid.
So I would have been washed out.

(03:09):
Where did you go to high schoolpendleton?
okay yeah, both judy and I wentto pendleton.
Yeah, I didn't have the studyhabits I mean, yeah, that sort
of thing.
But anyway, after two years inblue mountain, uh, I went down
to oregon state and finished updown there in the Fish and
Wildlife curriculum down there.
But there was no jobs and so wehad a fin and antler club and

(03:32):
maybe you belonged to the finand antler club when you were
there and what we'd do?
We'd bring in differententities, organizations that
hired young biologists.
Anyway, I can remember this onemeeting I went to.
It had ODFW, it had the BLM, ithad the Forest Service, it had

(03:52):
OSP and there was a gentleman,he was a captain of the Fish and
Wildlife Division and he wasreally long-sighted, captain
Walt Hershey.
And what he was doing, he wasgoing out to these colleges like
Oregon State and recruitingfish and wildlife biologists,
wanting them to be game wardens,and so anyway, they all gave

(04:15):
their presentation.
I went home that night withJudy and I said you know,
there's a guy that says there'sa job, possibly as a warden here
in.
Oregon and so I went up to.
I got a meeting with him andwent up to Salem.
He sat me down in his officejust a really neat man and

(04:39):
talked a little bit.
He said you want to take a test.
I said, well, what for?
He said well, we got a cadetprogram.
He said, well, our county, theyhave road closures up there.
He says we send cadets up therein the fall and all you do is
you go around and look in thesnow and you look for vehicle
tracks and you follow thesevehicle tracks and you issue

(05:03):
these people citations.
You know, I thought hey, I.
And he says you know, he sayswe got some openings for this
summer, one at Diamond Lake upout of Roseburg, and he said,
would you be interested in that?
And I said before I just walkedin the door an hour earlier you
know, and I said sure, becauseI didn't have a job.
I mean, I was graduating fromcollege and a wife to support

(05:24):
and no place to go to earn money.
And was Judy teaching at thistime?
No, we graduated together in 73.
And we'd just gotten married in72.
But anyway.
So we bought us a little17-foot travel trailer, took it
to Diamond Lake and the peoplethat owned the lodge at that

(05:46):
time they loved the OSP peoplecoming up there and be on site.
So they gave us a free RV space, they paid for our propane and
Judy, she was a waitress in thelocal cafe there at Diamond Lake
and I got to work on the lakewith the officers from Roseburg

(06:06):
who came up there and theytrained me how to run the boat
and meet people and stuff likethat.
So this went all summer.
I loved it up there.
We had one of the best summerswe've ever had and because in
the evenings I'd take an eveningoff every now and then.
If you know Diamond Lake, it'sused to have and maybe it still
does some beautiful rainbowtrout and you'd take a fly rod
down there on the northwest sideand in five minutes you'd catch

(06:31):
, you know, a couple 18-inchrainbows and that'd feed Judy
and I for a week almost, youknow.
So we lived off fish.
And anyway one of the officers,he said, bill, have you ever
thought about being a permanentOSP.
I said yeah, I could dosomething like this.
Anyway, larry said well, writea letter, you know, to
headquarters.

(06:52):
And I addressed it to CaptainHershey.
And Lieutenant from Roseburg,duane Pankratz came up there one
day this assignment wentthrough September and he said I
understand you want to be astate policeman full time.
I said yes, sir, and I said youknow, I prefer fish and game,

(07:15):
but I'll work patrol becausegetting into fish and wildlife
division was hard at that timeit was sought after.
And I'll work traffic, you know, any place in the state, but
except, but, except portland.
I said, sir, I will not work inthe portland area period.
You know I'm an eastern oregonboy.
He said okay, well, you comeback.
Uh, he says we got an openingat uh gold beach on the south

(07:39):
coast and he says I said now isit fishing game?
He said yes, it is.
And uh, I said now is it fishand game?
He said yes, it is, and I saidI'll take it, you know.
I said now, lieutenant, tell mewhere Gold Beach is at, you
know.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
Gold Beach kind of has a reputation for poachers
and wildlife criminals today.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
I've since learned that.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
What was it like then ?

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Well, let me I'll finish my story.
I never did go there.
Anyway, lieutenant Pankratz,come back a week later, two
weeks later, and he said, bill,you're an Eastern Oregon boy,
you'd be bugging us to go backeast all the time you're on the
coast.
I said, possibly.
He said, but we got an openingin Ontario, I said.

(08:20):
He said, would you like to goto Ontario?
I said, sir, that's as far eastas you can send me, I'll take
it.
And I knew a little bit aboutOntario, but not as much as I
was to learn the next few years.
So anyway, long story short,after my cadet assignment in
September, recruit class was inOctober Went through the recruit
class and I reported to Ontarioin May, I think May of 73.

(08:43):
Yeah, 73.
No, yeah, september or May, butanyway.
So that's how we ended up inOntario.
So it's a roundabout way to getto Eastern Oregon.
Yeah, how long did you spend inOntario?
We spent a little over threeyears.
Judy taught school at Vail, andnot Vail, but Nyssa and I

(09:03):
worked there.
And, being the young guy, theygave me the South End, which was
McDermott, jordan Valley.
And you know I'm a timber guyand this desert really didn't
appeal to me too much.
But I'll tell you what If I wasin Wallowa County now, I'd be
in the desert down there.
It's that beautiful down there.
It's pretty special, oh it's.

(09:24):
People have no idea what's downthere in that desert.
And let's keep it that way, yes,and the Basco people down there
, james, they are the neatestpeople you'd ever want to be
around.
Yeah, but I found, you know, inthree years I didn't even touch
that country because you'd haveto go down there for three or
four days, spend nights, just toyou know, learn it, and it's

(09:45):
such a vast area just to coverit, you know.
And those Basco people, if youcaught them doing something
wrong and you didn't cite them,they lost all respect for you.
Period Interesting, if youcited them, it was a good site.
They would invite you in fordinner, they'd let you use their
house.
I mean, I'd never been aroundfolks like that and made a lot

(10:06):
of good friends.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Where do you think that sense of accountability,
self-accountability, comes from?

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Oh, it had to be the family, the Basco family unit,
you know?
No, I mean they didn't lie toyou.
I mean, even if they did someof the, they weren't bad by no
means, but they were justforthright.
Yeah, that's just the way theywere.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, so what were they up to?
Were they shooting theoccasional deer out of season?

Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, that, and sage they love sage grouse yeah, I
mean which.
I always wanted to shoot one inJune too, but never did.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
But good people hardworking good people.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, but good people , hardworking good people.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
So you were down there.
Let's see, that'd be before theClaude Dallas thing.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
I just yeah that was during the Claude Dallas thing
actually, yeah, I knew boththose officers that got shot.
So what's your take on that?
Well, knowing both Conley andBill Bill Pogue, he and I worked
a lot of night shifts downthere because I'd go down to
Jordan Valley and Bill was.

(11:10):
He was out of Idaho, of course,and we would set up road checks
and the locals down there inthe Idaho area thought Bill
Pogue, they didn't like him.
Yeah, he was very strict, butI'll tell you what.
Working with him, he was strictfor a reason.
I think there was a lot ofrespect for Bill, but he called

(11:36):
a spade a spade.
I didn't work with Conley thatmuch.
I knew him.
I took him up the Snake Riveron the jet boat a couple times.
But he's a big man but he had aheart the size of a pig heart.
Just a neat guy.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Everyone I've ever talked to said that Conley Alms
was just a sweetie.
Everybody liked him, periodyeah.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
You know what happened down there.
I know I'd like to do thegentleman that shot him.
You know I have a hard timecalling him a gentleman.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah Well, I'm curious about that because you
know that there's a risk.
You know that there's danger inwhat you're doing, but when a
couple fellow wildlife officersget killed in line of duty in
the area that you're working in,that brings it home in a

(12:29):
certain way.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
It really enrages you .
It's kind of like when the TwinTowers got airborne or ran into
back in Pennsylvania.
It just erupted something in methat you don't realize is there
.
Until something like thathappens, you just get instantly
pissed.
I mean you just yeah, andthat's what that did to me.

(12:51):
We took Fleur up in ourairplanes looking for him and he
was.
He was quite an outdoorsman.
You don't give him that muchcredit, yeah, but he was a
coward.
Yeah, period yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, it's a it's.
It's an interesting story andit continues to be interesting.
Right, and there was, there wascelebration of Claude Dallas
that I think just came frompeople being feeling feeling
hurt by the government and thatthey didn't know where feeling

(13:26):
hurt by the government and thatthey didn't know where where to
place that hurt.
So, you know, they, a lot ofpeople looked at him as a, as a
hero, where other people arelooking at him as a villain and
then the stories start gettingtwisted around and it it just it
ran out of control it was blackand white.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
There was nobody in between.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
On that one Really.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, I mean either they were the hero you know felt
he was a hero, others felt hewas a villain.
Bottom line.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
I did a whole episode on Claude Dallas here a while
back and somebody sent me apicture of a tip jar from a bar
in Nevada that was for people toto put money in for him, and
he's living back in the Oahe now.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Oh he is.
I heard he was in McGrath,alaska.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
He was in Alaska for a while, but yeah, he's
cowboying back in the Oahe now.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
Okay, yeah, that is some of the neatest country.
I'm sure you've been down there, you've ever been to Anderson
Crossing.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
I've not no.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
It's that I own country where the three states
come together.
Oh just gorgeous country.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, yeah, I, I do love it down there.
I love the lava flows, um, it'sjust, it's incredible.
The, the desert is reallyspecial.
But the desert, kind of likethe canyons here, it's an
acquired taste.
You don't necessarilyunderstand and love it at first
sight.
It takes a little bit of timebefore you start to figure out

(14:51):
how special it really is.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Hey, man, my coach.
He worked in Ontario, malheurCounty, his entire career and I
got there.
Jack had 22 years in and hetaught me a lot about the desert
and I always wanted Jack towrite a book because he had a
memory that was just parexcellence.
And I can't remember my namefrom yesterday, but he never did

(15:14):
.
Jack just passed away.
But I remember Jack.
We'd go by a ranch house one day, out by Bully Creek Reservoir,
and Jack turned to me and said,oh, so-and-so moved back there.
I looked and there was amailbox, no name on it, no
vehicle there, and I followeddown the road about a half mile
and said, jack, how in the helldo you know that so-and-so moved

(15:35):
back there?
Well, his horse is in thecorral.
This guy had a memory.
This guy had moved to Boise forfive or eight years, came back
to Malheur County, brought thatsame horse that Jack knew about.
Yeah, you know, and I mean theguy was phenomenal, but yeah,
it's just one of those specialplaces over there that people

(15:57):
like Jack.
I mean you know, when you'reawarding people you hate your
love, you're, you know, not alot of in-between stuff, but
Jack had a lot of respect overthere and I said I'd ask him
about different people, what doyou think about this guy?
And Jack always told me he saidBill, he says I'm not going to
share my opinion about him.
I want you to form your ownopinion about him.
You know, in your tenure hereand I really respected and

(16:18):
appreciated Jack for doing thatyeah, because how you see
somebody and how I see somebodymight be a little bit different
Sure.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
And the way you go into it will change that first
and lasting impression.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Big time.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, so where did you move after?

Speaker 1 (16:33):
Ontario.
We spent about three and a halfyears in Ontario and I told
Jack.
I said, jack, I got to get backto Timber.
I said I'm a Timber guy.
I got to get back the timber.
I said I'm a timber guy.
I got to get back there andDean Harrison was up here.
I knew Dean and I said I wantto go to Alaska.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
My wife didn't obviously she went out.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
But, and I had several offers up in Alaska
because they wanted wardens withpilot's license to come up
there and I'd take it home toher.
And well, when are you going tomove up there?

Speaker 2 (17:09):
You can go.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
You got it, but long story short.
So I said you know, honey,let's pick a spot in Oregon
where we both like, and anyway,wallowa County, because Judy was
a little bit familiar with it.
Her parents used to bring herup here as a kid and I was Boy
Scouts, brought me up here, andthat's as remote as we could
find in Oregon.
So I put my request fortransfer in for Willow County.

(17:32):
Well, anyway, dean actuallyDean was still working another
officer up here he transferredout and they asked me if I
wanted to come up here and itwas May of 76.
And I said, hey, when do youwant me up there?
And we were ready to move thenext day.
So we moved up to Willow Countyin May of 76.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
And, yeah, been here ever since it ran me out, yeah,
Now, Judy was my second-gradeteacher and I think this podcast
is the first time I've ever notcalled her Mrs Ables.
It feels a little weird to mestill so did she start teaching
up here as soon as you moved up?

Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, she taught in Nyssa and then she moved up here
and she taught gymnastics.
Larry oh golly, I just lost hisname the superintendent,
chrisman Chrisman.
Thank you, larry Chrisman.
Larry wanted, gymnasticsteaches a kid a lot, you know,

(18:37):
not just how to tumble and stuff, there's a lot to the learning
process that gymnastics does.
And Judy, she did a lot ofkinesiology courses and things
like that.
Anyway, larry got a hold of herand said hey, would you mind,
would you teach gymnastics herein Enterprise for our kids?
And she did.
Anyway, then she went in.
She was a high school physicaled teacher and so she, after

(18:58):
teaching gymnastics there, shereally fell in love with the
elementary and she said I wantto go back and get my elementary
degree.
So she hustled the LeGrand fora couple years and got her
credentials to be an elementaryteacher and then they hired her
to be one of your teachers.
Yep, yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
She's very, very nice .
That's about what I remember.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
I don't remember a lot of second grade.
She is actually.
Yeah, she's a nice person, Niceperson.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, she's a nice person.
Nice person, yeah, and you're anice person too.
I wonder how you manage thedifficulty of the confrontations
that are just part of the jobof being a game warden, like
that's a confrontational job.
How does that work, especiallyin a small community where

(19:44):
you're going to see those peopleagain at the grocery store and
at the gas station and maybe atchurch?

Speaker 1 (19:49):
It can be confrontational, james.
I won't say it has to be, andthat's all how, as you mentioned
earlier, it's all how youpresent yourself.
Yeah, you know, I'm just a real, you know dumb kid in Pendleton
and I had a little experiencewith game wardens over there
chasing me around and I had alot of respect for them and they

(20:10):
were.
All my contacts over there werevery good and scared the
peawattens out of me a coupletimes, but they were still very
good and I did some wrong thingsI truly did when I was growing
up.
Not a bad thing, but just butjust you know, stupid wildlife
violation, uh, and anyway.
So, and that's how I approachedpeople when I was working.

(20:30):
Uh, I always, I guess one of mysayings to some of these people
were if you want to act like anasshole, I'll treat you like an
asshole if you want to act likea lady or gentleman, I'll treat
you like a lady or gentleman.
And they kind of turn their headat you and look at you like, oh
, the onus is on me, yeah,choose your own adventure.
Exactly.
But you know, I didn't have alot of trouble with people.

(20:53):
I guess I related to them, youknow.
But most people out there areabsolutely super nice people.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
They truly are, and you can't go into a camp, you
can't go into a group of hunters.
You know thinking you're GodAlmighty, that's just not me
number one.
But if you do that it's anuphill battle.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
Sure, it's an uphill battle, and everybody that
you're talking to is armed.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
I know that that didn't bother me, sure.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
Well, I mean, even if they're not, you might as well
assume that they are Period.
Oh, if you don't, you're yeah.
So I don't know what thatmentality would actually change,
but the reality is that theyare.
You know, that's kind of thenature of the job.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, what were some of the popular crimes that you
had to deal with here in WallowaCounty specifically?

Speaker 1 (21:49):
You know most what I found over the years.
Most fish and wildlifeviolations are opportunists.
They don't go out there toviolate, right.
You know an opportunitypresents themselves and they
make the wrong choice and youknow you have to deal with those
folks.
I always felt warnings most ofthe time did you 10 times more

(22:11):
good than a citation.
Yeah, and thank Walt Hershey.
He was a proponent of that.
You know you always hear policeofficers like to write a lot of
tickets and there's a numbersthing and I'll be honest with
you, state police had that for awhile where you had to produce
so many numbers.
Well, walt Hershey wasn't ofthat mindset and again, he was

(22:31):
way ahead of his time and hefelt that a warning, you know,
was just good, if not morepowerful than a citation.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
That's interesting.
I bet there's somepsychological studies behind
that now.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
There has to be.
Oh, I mean, I can almostguarantee it because I mean, you
know, on the snake river Ispent a lot of time down there
in the jet boat and drift boats.
But uh, what we will?
You know, people sometimesforget their fishing license,
can't find it, and what westarted doing is we had a little
form, just basically, we justmimeographed it off handwritten
form and say okay, would youmind mailing me your fishing
license?

(23:11):
I'll give you 10 days, you know, and I'll give you a warning
now.
But here's my address, here's alittle form, fill it out, send
it to me.
And you don't know howappreciative people, honest
people, were of that.
They're not getting a citation,they don't got to go to court,
they don't have to deal with acourt system, and I know we
gained a lot of respect oversomething like that.

(23:32):
Numbers weren't important to me.
I like to catch the really badguys, and so we kind of keyed in
on the.
We had an operation up inWenaha where people were killing
big bulls and then, you know,cutting their heads off and
hanging them up in trees to comeback the next spring and
getting them, and we did somecovert stuff with that and those

(23:53):
were fun.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
Tell me a story about that.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
Well, it cost me a wrecked pickup and a wrecked
horse trailer that the statewouldn't pay me for.
But no, we had these people upin the Wenaha and we set it up
where we'd be up there a fullmonth and this was in December
and we never caught them, neverdid make the case.
But we put a lot of effort intoit.
But we'd take our horses andmules and we'd go over in the

(24:19):
Wenaha and we'd set up a campand we'd just glass, we'd just
sit on our hindies and we'd justwait for folks to do what
they're going to do.
And that's where I learned howto drink Carolines in my coffee.
You know, was during thatoperation.
But coming out of there one day, I had my pickup and my
fifth-wheel horse trailer, I hadmy mules, I had five animals in

(24:42):
it and it just snowed.
And, unbeknownst to me, therewere some chip truck drivers
going into a ranch's place andthey were chipping trees and of
course those chip trucks packedthat snow down right, turned it
into ice.
Well then, we had about three,four inches of fresh snow on top
of that, so you couldn't seethe ice.
And we got to Trailhead and Ididn't chain up, put everything

(25:05):
in, we're heading home and I gotto the top of this one hill and
it was probably a 100 yard hill, maybe 150 at the most, and I
had about 15 yards to go to makeit and my tires started
spinning and I started goingbackwards.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
And.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
I had a passenger and a guy in the back, in my behind
, the in the backseat.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
This is some steep country.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
And you don't know how fast you can get going.
You know, on sheer ice.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
And next thing, I know, and I had it under control
about half the way down, butthen just in a split second that
horse trailer jackknife went onits side and about took my cab
off.
It didn't and of course I'mworried about the animals back
there.
Now we all three get out and Iknow I'm going to go back there
and just see five dead horses,mule, sure, and I looked in

(26:00):
there.
Of course it's sideways.
And I looked in there, ofcourse it's sideways.
And I looked in there and theywere moving, except my one, mare
and uh, and I had a pistol, butI went in, I opened the door
and I just started cutting leadropes because they were kind of
hanging from the upper side andthey all got up, except my mare
and I.
I told steve, I said she, youknow, because there's quite a

(26:22):
bit of blood on her, and Ikicked her in the belly.
Well, she kicked back at me youknow, and anyway she was just
yeah, we got them all out ofthere, you know.
But and then trying to get thestate to pay for my anyway, it
was a long story, but Bill paidfor everything.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
Well, that's frustrating.
Bill paid for everything Well,that's frustrating, especially
when there's an expectation thatyou're going to be using your
own gear for a job.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
Yeah, it's, you know, my lieutenant.
He went to bat for me.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
But the big boys down there said no, so you never did
catch those folks.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Never did Not those, Not those.
But there was other folks thatdid the same thing that we were
lucky enough to fight Right.
But you know, there's a lot ofpeople out there that I mean
they'll do something wrong againin the opportunist category.
But they don't like otherpeople.
When I retired in 01, it tookprobably three years until the

(27:24):
calls at night stopped coming in.
I'd get calls from people allover the county saying, hey, I'm
not going to tell you who I am.
Most of the times I knew themby their voice, you know.
But they would say hey, so andso just killed a deer elk,
whatever.
All he took was a back strap.
He said that pisses me off.
Yeah, you know, and uh, Ienjoyed talking to those people.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, you know there's.
There's the crimes that arethat are written down in books,
and then there's crimes thatthat are sort of against the
social, the social tolerance,social acceptance.
That's exactly what this was.
And here in Wallowa County, ifsomebody was shooting for meat

(28:11):
and it was out of season, thatdidn't feel like much of a crime
to a lot of folks here.
But no matter what, if theydidn't use that meat, that was a
crime and it was sociallyunacceptable.
Here still is, and that'ssomething that I I very much
appreciate about this community.
I never even consideredsomething like that, something

(28:33):
like wanton waste could occur.
Um, until it happened with thelocal outfitter here, I was like
, oh wow, like I just never evenimagined such a thing.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, no, it's.
I remember going down.
I loved to work in Naha Again,I kind of always.
When I first came here HatPoint, lord Flat, that was my
favorite area and I'd go to theNaha Cafe about 8, 30, 9 o'clock
every morning to have coffee.

(29:05):
Well, my intent was just to getto know the people down there.
Well, down there, if you'vebeen down there back then, there
was a table for the ladies andthere was a table for the
gentlemen, and that was the timethey'd done their chores and
they'd come in to have morningcoffee.
Well, I'd sit at the counterand I'd sat there.
Over the first probably sixmonths they wouldn't hardly talk
to me and pretty soon one ofthe and I knew most of the

(29:29):
ranchers they said come on over,sit down with us.
And so it took six months forthem to warm up to me, or me to
warm up to them, to get them to.
But yeah, after that, and theywouldn't tell me nothing.
I mean, no, they were like youwere talking about.
Hey, if somebody needed it, byall means go out.
I'll go out and get one for you, you know, but don't waste it

(29:51):
you know, and I got calls fromsome of those people.
You know about just what we weretalking about.
Yeah, I bet.
But yeah, neat people.
Those are Naha people MaryMarks Mary and Kit Marks up the
upper river, and maybe you knewthem after Kit passed away.
I'd pull in there and I'd checkon Mary every now and then,
well, grandma wrote that bookabout Mary Marks.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
There you go, yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
Neat lady.
Yeah, they let me stay in theircabin at Freezeout Creek that
burnt down one of the last fires.
Yeah, that was a beautifulcabin.
I mean oh, my goodness, JimDorrance, there at Phyllis White
, you know, with his daughter.
He's on the cafe down there.
Jim, he cowboyed down thatNevada country and all over

(30:31):
Buckaroo.
In fact my uncle in Alahelcoknows him, knew Jim.
I got him together actuallybefore Jim passed.
But I come in there and Jim, hejust he come back up there
pretty stoved up and he'd justwash dishes for Phyllis.
I got to know Jim.
I mean we had some really neatconversations One day I said,
jim, when's the last time you'vebeen out to Doran's cow camp?

(30:53):
His cow camp, right?
He said oh, we moved out ofthere in 43.
I said you haven't been backthere since then.
He says no.
I said Jim, get your butt in mypickup.
We're going to go for a ride.
Actually it was the next dayand I took him up there and we
drove clear out to LordFlatfield, naha, and he was
showing me trails here and this,there and this.

(31:13):
You know I mean I learned morefrom that gentleman, you know,
in that day's ride than I'llever, you know learn in a
person's career, and when thatburnt down last two years ago I
was in that enraged stage.
That happened, you know.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, the Forest Service almost seems relieved
when these homesteads burn down.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
You said it real good right there.
Yeah, it's really sad becausewe use those things.
I can't tell you how manynights I've spent in that
Dorrance cow camp.
One night I was in there duringdeer season, I don't know when,
and a cowboy pulled in thereafter dark and he was going to
buckaroo up there.
He said, well, Bud Stangl'sgoing to come in here and we're

(32:03):
going to buckaroo up there.
He said, well, bud stangle'sgoing to come in here and we're
going to fly for cows tomorrow.
Oh, that'd be cool.
He said I'm not going to get inthat plane.
I don't fly, you know.
And the and my brain startedworking.
Well, maybe bud needs an extraset of eyes.
So I get down there at daylightand bud lands and this cowboy's
there and he said, hey, checkthis place, this place, this
place and that place.

(32:23):
You know we got so many missing.
I said Bud.
I said, do you need an extrapair of eyes?
Yeah, hop in, you know.
So I jumped in the Super Cuband for two and a half hours we
fly around looking for cows andBud oh, look at that bull.
He banked that cowboy.
Look at that bear.
Oh, I got to look for cows too.
You know that was Bud Stango.
And after about an hour and 15minutes old, bill's belly was

(32:48):
getting a little talkative and Itapped Bud on the shoulder and
I said, bud, you got a six sack.
Didn't even look at me, didn'tdo nothing, he just grabbed a
six sack and handed it back tome.
Of course I do my thing, youknow.
And he still look at this.
Yeah, no mercy.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
Zero, absolutely zero .

Speaker 1 (33:07):
But he was a hell of a pilot, that guy.
It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
But yeah so.
Did you have anybody duringyour career that you were just
constantly trying to get?
Was there ever like a nemesisor a person that you were kind
of playing cat and mouse withfor a long time?

Speaker 1 (33:29):
You know some of our biggest cases come out of the
West Side People that utilizeover here.
One was a Bear Gall Bladdercase.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yeah, that doesn't seem like it's much of a thing
anymore, but it sure was for awhile.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
It was a big thing Asians you know, coming over
here and I can remember goingdown to the west side.
I don't know how many teams wehad.
There was over 100 officersinvolved in that.
I had a team of seven guys thatsearched a house out near
Eugene and it's funny we wentinto this house because this was
one of the main operators andwe didn't find any dried

(34:06):
gallbladders.
But I had an officer that was.
He was basically drawing to theinch of the house because we'd
find some evidence here and we'dsay, okay, we took this from
here and we were logging it.
And at the end of everything hewalks up and he said Bill, he
said this closet says this far,but the inside dimensions are

(34:27):
this far and there was about an18-inch space that was
unaccounted for.
Any long story short, a falsewall and he had a grill
operation up in his attic.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
Oh really.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
That's the kind of people you're dealing with.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah, I mean yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
That's the kind of people you're dealing with.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yeah, I mean but yeah , the bear gallbladder thing
that hit in North Carolina toofor a while and they had to to
sharpen up some some regulationsaround their bear stuff back
there.
But yeah, it's so crazy to methat that there's all these
different wildlife traffickingissues that end up being oh,

(35:02):
this is used as an aphrodisiacin Asia, and it spans a huge
number of species and materials,whether that's rhinoceros horn
or bear gallbladder or ground-upvelvet elk antler you can keep
on going down the list.
And it's like what's going onwith these people over there?

(35:23):
Can they just like relax andnot snort animals?
It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
Well, it really drives a.
It's a money issue over herefor these people, yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
Our end of it.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
I mean they're selling these gallbladders for a
lot of money.
I mean, we found bear carcasseshere where they just see the
incision.
They went in there and pulledthe gallbladder out and that was
all they took.
Really, oh yeah, I won't say itwasn't uncommon, but I can.
You know, right now I can thinkof three right off the top of
my head.
Wow, right here in WallowaCounty those people were coming

(35:57):
right in.
But you know, as far as localpeople here, james, no, there
was no big operators here.
I mean they all did theopportunity thing.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
It's most of.
Yeah, those people come in fromthe outside.
Here I'm talking Bobcatspotlighters.
I remember one call one nightfrom a gentleman down below
MNaha.
This is February, and, Bill, hesaid I just had a spotlighting
and a shot right below my house.
Well, February, how do you getout of Mnaha?

(36:32):
Yeah, one way.
One way, I mean, I wouldn't sayit's easy, but he had a fairly
good description of the vehicle.
So this is 10 o'clock at night.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Which this could be anything right.
That could be somebody that'sjust checking for calves shoots
a coyote.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Well, bud was a rancher, he knew that kind of
stuff.
I mean this, was they shotsomething off the road?
Yeah, raccoon, whatever youknow.
And so I saddle up, jump mypickup head down that way Now
it's about 11 o'clock at night Ipass the vehicle, I turn around
and I stop these two gentlemenand we have a conversation.

(37:13):
I say, hey, you mind if Isearch your vehicle?
And they had suitcases backthere.
They were from way out of thearea and I'm getting.
You know, I'm watching theseguys, I know their arm, you know
all this stuff doing my thing.
And I see these lights come upfrom Anaha.
They stop about 100 yardsbehind me, 80 yards, and then

(37:35):
they leave the lights on us, youknow.
So I'm kind of now I'm not onlyconcentrating on these two
gentlemen, I'm concentrating onthat rig behind me.
And so I get done with them,find the little-legal things
there didn't find the bobcat wewere looking for and turn them
loose.
They were packing some paper.
And then this car pulls upslowly to me.

(37:57):
Well, it was a gentleman thatcalled and his neighbor.
After he called me, he knew I'dbe by myself.
He called his neighbor.
They jumped in the car, had tworifles sitting next to each one
of them.
They would have killed thosesons of bitches in a heartbeat
if they had done anything to me.
Sure, I know that, and my, youknow?
Uh, that's cool.
Yeah, that is cool, you know.

(38:18):
So what were those guys up to?
What did they shoot?
Oh, bobcats, they've beencamped down there for half a
dozen days.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah, you know, they were just coming out and they
seen a raccoon along the roadand, yeah, you know what was a
bobcat worth in those days oh, agood cat was worth 300 bucks a
lot of money, a lot of money.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yeah yeah, I know, it was again money driven yeah,
yeah and I like bobcats a lot,you you know, but that just
tells you.
You know, as an officer you canbuild this kind of rapport up
with your local people or youcan let it go the other way.
You know, and those guys, Iwon't say they saved my life,

(39:00):
but I'll guarantee you I wouldhave been home one way or
another that night.
You know, because of them.
Sure, so yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
I had a funny one down in Omaha here a couple
years ago I guess more than acouple years ago now but one of
our local wildlife officerswho's still here and who's a
friend of mine which is why I'mnot going to tell you that his
name's Jacob Foe, was down thereturkey hunting with my buddy
Jim and we'd shot a turkey firstthing in the morning and packed

(39:32):
up our decoys and we went upthe canyon a little ways, found
a pretty spot and took somepictures and we're coming back
out and Jacob goes past us andthen stops in the road and
starts to back up.
I had never met him at thattime and I walked down there and
I said hey, like you lookingfor us, he goes, I think so.

(39:52):
Are you turkey hunting?
I said yeah, and uh, he goes.
How many turkeys you shoot?
And I said one.
He said well, are you sure?
Yep, pretty sure we got one.
He said well, mind, if I lookin the truck and I'm like yeah,
go for it, knock yourself out.
Then open up the back door thereand he sees this bag and he

(40:15):
turns around and he's got thiskind of funny look on his face
like this gotcha, and he goes.
Well, somebody called and theysaw you put that second turkey
in a bag and I instantly knewexactly what was going on.
I was so excited for what wasabout to happen next.
I was like, well, all right.
And he reached over there andgrabbed it and it was our decoy.

(40:38):
You know that we'd put in thebag.
Oh, it was so good, it was sogood, I loved it.
And he's a great example of asuper solid game warden.
Right, he laughed it off.
I'm like, yeah, have a good day, see you later.
And I think that we're wecontinue to be blessed by really
, really solid game troops hereand you know our, our state

(40:59):
police, they're, they're friendsand they're allies.
And if you do wrong yeah, youknow you, you did wrong You're

(41:21):
going to have to pay for it.
But there's times I've hadtimes in Hell's Canyon where,
you know, I one time I was brokedown, uh like had a, had a part
that to fix it, checked ourlicenses and went about his day,
and I think that that's howthat relationship should be.
Oh yeah, but it's just notalways the case everywhere.
Like you said, it doesn't haveto be adversarial, it doesn't

(41:42):
have to be confrontational, butit really depends about the
attitudes of everybody involved.
As you're getting into it.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
I totally agree with that.
I'm thinking of stories nowthat's popped up in my career.
I had, if I may no, please doHell's Canyon.
Hell's Canyon is my spot, as isLord Flatton, and Dean Harrison
told me.
He said, bill, I understand youkind of like Lord Flatton, that

(42:11):
Snake River captain.
I said I do.
I'm going to give you one pieceof advice.
I said, what's that, dean?
He says if there's a half inchof snow on the road, put all
four chains on, period.
Well, it didn't take me long tofigure out why he told me that,
but anyway, I made a lot ofgood friends out in those camps.
I knew a lot of the camps thathad really good pie makers in

(42:32):
them and coffee makers and theylet me imbibe in there, things
like that.
But anyway, I went out thereone day and I was going out this
one ridge and this camp that Iknew from Ontario, they said hey
, bill, I don't know a lot, butI just know that somebody wasted
a five point bull down here.
They shot it and just broughtthe head out and uh, that's all

(42:53):
they knew.
So out the ridge I went andanyway, long story short, uh,
this young man from the coasthad, went down in there.
Uh, went down in there andkilled a five-point bull.
Didn't know how to get it,hadn't been taught how to get it
, and just cut the head off.
Was going to go back and gethis buddies and they were going
to come down and salvage themeat.
Well, he brought the head outand the meat spoiled.

(43:16):
Yeah, doesn't take very long.
No, not that particular yearespecially.
And so now they had a fivepoint head.
Well, they went ahead and killeda spike bull, which at that
time was a three point bull area.
Only they put the spike meatwith the five point head.
How'd that go anyway, there wasanother, anyway that.

(43:40):
So when I checked that meat, Icould see it wasn't a mature
carcass, right.
And so they says well, so whenI checked that meat, I could see
it wasn't a mature carcass,right.
And so they says well, the campdown the way is the one that
killed the spike.
And so I go down there and Iconfront them and no, we didn't
do it.
Well, who you know?
Who put the tag on it?
Well, I did.
Well, let's go take a look atyour carcass.

(44:01):
We said it's down there a mileand a half.
You know your car, because wewas down there a mile and a half
, you know.
I said, well, that's fine,let's walk down there.
And so, as we were walking downthere and this young man was
probably 23, 24, well built, and, uh, we get about halfway down
there and she's, you know, heturned around.
He said I don't have to takeyou down there, do I?
I said no, you don't, butyou're going to.
And he knew I was serious, andso he did a 180 and off it, long

(44:25):
story short, went down there,and sure enough, it was a spike
bull that he had killed.
And so, anyway, these and thisyoung man that did kill the five
point, we later we were goodfriends, and they were all good
people actually, but they justmade a stupid mistake, you know,
and were trying to amend it, soto speak, but still it didn't

(44:46):
keep that five-point bullet.
And it was just out ofignorance, it wasn't intentional
, by no means, it's just hehadn't been taught how to skin
that bull out properly and wedid our business with him.
But later they never felt badfeelings about it?

Speaker 2 (45:04):
Was there ever a time where you feel like you got it
wrong, like you?

Speaker 1 (45:09):
wrote it Two times.
Two times, yeah, but I wish Icould take those citations back.
Yeah, what happened?
I just had a bad day.
Yeah, period.
Yeah, just a bad day.
You know, I gave somebody acitation that deserved a warning
.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Yeah, you know I gave somebody a citation that
deserved a warning.
Yeah Well, I mean, it's a humanjob, right?
You're a human being, like youknow, sometimes you're not going
to be feeling quite right.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Yeah, I still regret those two times.
I could tell you second bysecond what happened.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
But I won't, but yeah , yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
So what advice would you give to your younger self?

Speaker 1 (45:53):
You know what I try to do with these younger
officers as they come along.
Number one get your ass out ofthat pickup Walk.
You know, go out and meet thesehunters in the field.
I've always felt that a huntera paying hunter that wants to
buy the license it's paying yourwages he has more respect for
you if you get checked fivemiles back in than out of a

(46:16):
pickup window to window, youknow.
So I tried whether I'm in thecanyon, I had him walk up to the
Tryon Ranch.
I had him walk up to differentplaces just to go up there and
uh, you know, contact thesepeople off the off the beaten
path and uh, I think I made alittle headway there with some
of them, but uh, Not enough.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
I don't know if I've, if I've ever seen green pants
more than a hundred yards awayfrom a truck.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, you've made my case.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
But it's a good point .
You know, if, oh truly, if, ifI was in the back country and
and, uh, and somebody walked upand said, you know, hey, how's
it going?
Mind, if I check your license,like, as long as I didn't have a
bull that was coming in rightat that moment, you know I'd
have a totally differentrelationship with that person.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Oh yeah yeah, I've been known to pack quarters
after guys.
I walked in there and they weretotally legal.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Well, one of my.
I issued a citation and I said,well, let's get this thing out
of here.
He says what do you mean?
I said, well, I'm going to packa quarter out, nice.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
So yeah, that's good of you, yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
So hey, I'm going.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
And you're an athletic guy, you know that's.
It's almost, almost fair tothrow some weight on there to
slow you down.
How was?
How was trucker hunting today,by the way?

Speaker 1 (47:31):
The wind slowed us down.
There was wind out there ofconsistently 25 miles an hour
and it blew us out of there.
We hunted for three and a halfhours and finally Pat and I
decided, no, we're not going todo this, no more.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Did you kill a bird?
No, no, four shots, zero birds.
Oh, you got a little shootingin though.
Yeah, oh yeah, all the dogsthey can get a little fast in
the wind.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
These two dogs are brother and sister and they're
21 months old now and last yearshe ate a hun and a chucker and
I mean I still had high hopesfor her but I had my work cut
out.
Uh, this year, that dog, thefirst time we went out, we're
going along.
She's lollygagging around outfor a walk right with dad.
And I got this bush and Ibrought her over there because I

(48:19):
knew there been chuckers inthere.
I wanted to send some and shegot a little excited.
You know, half a mile furtherdown the road, uh, she didn't
point them but a bunch ofchukras got up and I happened to
hit one and that bird hit about20 yards in front of her.
As soon as they hit the ground,the like a switch went off.
She ran down there, grabbedthat bird, put it in her mouth,

(48:41):
looked at me, smiled at me andjust chugged back and gave it to
me.
I mean, the rest of the day.
She was a bird dog.
She knew what she was there for.
Yeah, and that's why it's beenthis whole year chuck around.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
She is a phenomenal, she's a little britney dog and
she's the best bird dog I'veever had isn't it awesome when
your dog has that light bulbmoment and you can just see him,
and it seems like it's.
It especially happens withfemale dogs, right, male dogs
can have that light bulb moment,but then you've got to change

(49:12):
the light bulb again.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Good point, but females.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
sometimes it'll just click for them and it's like, oh
, I get it now, and then theyhave it forever.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Oh, she is so much fun to hunt.
I had my grandson and son outthere, chuck and Rharant, this
year and we had what we calledan epic day out there hunting
birds.
We all got birds.
I think between the three of uswe got 11 birds, but my
grandson got his first bird andthis dog was working phenomenal.
She made so many trees it wouldknock your socks off and, yeah,

(49:43):
it would just pinch yourselftime and time again.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Yeah, when did you learn how to fly?

Speaker 1 (49:52):
You know, I got my license in 75 when Judy and I
were over in Ontario.
Judy knew I always wanted tofly.
My dad flew for a short timeand he did a lot of model
airplanes, both control line andradio control, and had
magazines laying all over thehouse.
So I was kind of bitten by it.

(50:13):
You know, at a young age andTreasure Valley had a course
come up for a term or two terms,I can't remember for 40 hours
and by the end of the 40 hoursyou would solo and you would
also take your written test andwe didn't have a pot to piss in,
no money and, judy, we didn'thave no kids and she said why

(50:33):
don't you take that class?
I go say that again, you know.
So long story short.
I took that class and that'swhy I got my license over there
in 75.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
So yeah, do you recall how much that class costs
?
Oh boy.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
I could look it up, james, but no, I don't, it
wasn't.
I mean, it was a lot to us then.
Yeah, it was, but after that,you know, you still didn't have
a lot of money and I didn't flya lot.
And then I moved to AllouaCounty in 76 and they have a
flying club over here called theChief Joseph Flyers it's the

(51:09):
oldest still active club inOregon and I joined that and one
of the things you had to do tojoin that, or when they allowed
you to join it, was to fly fivehours with Bud Stangle.
And so I talked to Bud and wemet up and I learned more from
that man in five hours than Ihad, up to that point, any

(51:30):
instructor ever.
I mean, he showed me things thatI didn't realize an airplane
could do.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
That's how I feel about Joe Spence today.
Yep.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Period.
Yep, joe's just a.
He's a shorter, bud Stangle.
Yeah, just a, he's a shorter,bud stangle.
Yeah, you know so.
But yeah, no, that's uh.
And then and then bud would flyus a lot on on fish and
wildlife stuff.
You know, do a lot of work withbud and I can remember him
landing on the vance draw roadout there in chesney during elk
season.
We were looking for, uh, roadclosure violators.

(52:02):
We landed on this road.
That wasn't to me.
It looked like about three feetwide and it was just a vast
straw road which is probablywhat, 14, 15 foot wide, and this
guy put this Super Cub down onthis road.
I thought this guy's goodPeriod, I mean.
And so anyway, that's kind ofwhat kind of?

(52:22):
Really got me bitten by theflying bug and I joined the club
.
Anyway, you know, you go throughbeing president, you go through
being treasurer.
I was in that club for 22 yearsand we had a 172 and a 182.
Well, finally, I could onlyafford the 172 at first, and
then I think Shannon was born in79.

(52:45):
So you can't, you don't have alot of extra money to spend on
airplanes when you've got twokids, and but anyway, we got the
.
We had enough money to buy intothe 182, which is a real, more
stable platform than 172.
And anyway did that for 22years.

(53:06):
And then retirement was comingup and I was still in the club
in 01 and in 03 we decided tobuy an airplane and I looked all
over the United States, alaska,canada.
I wanted a 180, cessna 180 andI'd make a deal on this one and
it'd fall through.
I'd make a deal on that one andit'd fall through.
I'd make a deal on that one,it'd fall through.
And uh, I had a 180, uh, foundover by tri-cities.

(53:31):
And so I don't know if youremember uh, uh, oh, the
mechanic here, oh shoot, helives on hurricane creek, dave
young dave young he went over totri-cities with me, out to this
rancher's place to do apre-purchase inspection.
So we drove over there in my rigand Dave, this was just a plain
Jane 180, and Dave said, hey,it's a good airplane.

(53:55):
I mean there's not a lot to itbut it's fine.
That's what I wanted.
I wanted a high-time enginewhere I could redo the engine
and then redo the interior andthis rancher was a very nice
gentleman and then redo theinterior.
And this rancher was a verynice gentleman and him and I got
within $1,000 one another onthis 1977 180.
And I was too cheap to come upand he was too stubborn to come

(54:17):
down and we separated friendsand I didn't buy it.
And to this day I look back atthat and think you dumb shit.
It had 700 hours on it, whichis nothing for an airplane, but
anyway I didn't buy it.
On the airframe.
On the airframe wow yes, whathad happened?
this gentleman, uh, him and hisson were both pilots and his son

(54:39):
was also a skydiver.
And one day he his son jumpedout and his parachute didn't
deploy.
And obviously his son jumpedout and his parachute didn't
deploy, and obviously his sonwas, and he never flew the
airplane again.
But anyway, on the way homeDave says you know, I got to go
out to a place on Upper PrairieCreek and look at the airplane,
mike flew it.

(55:00):
I just remember Mike.
Yeah, floyd.
And he has a 170 out there.
He flew here, landed.
He's never flown it since he's.
Yes, and he has a 170 out there.
He flew here, landed.
He's never flown it since he'sbeen here and he wants me to,
wants Joe to go out and fly itback to Enterprise and do an
annual on it and he's going tosell it.
I hadn't thought about a 170.
I'm not super familiar withthat airplane A 170 is a lot

(55:23):
less power, but it's basically amini 180.
Okay, Tail dragger same thingit's got a round tail versus the
straight tail of the 180.
So two days later I went up toDave's shop and here's this red
170 sitting in his shop.
So I looked at it and I got ahold of Mike and yeah, he says

(55:44):
I'm just so busy, a young family.
He said I just don't have timeto fly.
I got to hold the mic and uh,yeah, he says I'm just so busy,
a young family.
He said I just don't have timeto fly, I gotta get rid of it,
you know, just sitting in mybarn wasting away.
So anyway, we made a deal anduh, mike, uh, he sold it to me.
He said, but, bill, he says, uh, I'd like to have first right
of purchase if you decide tosell that airplane.
I said, hey, deal, done, deal.
You know you got it.

(56:04):
And uh, he also had two littlegirls at that time.
And uh, I said, you know, mike,I got a couple horses they're
getting too old hunting snakeriver.
But I like to give away, youknow.
But I, but the deal is I'mtheir brother and sister.
I won't separate them, you know.
And mike says, really, he saidI got a daughter and he's a 4-h

(56:24):
and I know the other daughterwould take the other one.
So I gave my horses to Mike andthose two little girls loved
those horses to death, untilthey passed away.
In fact, we'd go out to theranch out there and I can't
remember the girl's name now,but they'd take us out and show
us Toity and Tardy, you know,yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
I got Mike mics here.
It's Raya and what's the otherone?

Speaker 1 (56:46):
Yeah, Okay, you know.
But anyway so we tradedairplanes for horses, basically
with a little cash on top of it,nice, but that was in 2003.
And this is a tail dragger I'dflown.
I'd had probably 80 hours intail draggers at that time,
interspersed for a lot of years,because the state police had a

(57:09):
180 that the pilot would let mefly and land, and I got pretty
good at that, but anyway.
So I told Judy, so I haven'tflown tail draggers, I want to
get Joe Spence.
Joe and I are going to fly, youknow.
So Joe jumped in the airplanewith me and for 11 hours we flew
and I'll going to fly, you know.
So Joe jumped in the airplanewith me and for 11 hours we flew
, and I'll tell you what thattail dragger got about.

(57:30):
The best of me.
I mean, I was thinking maybethis old tail dragger isn't for
this old fart.
You know, just because of therudder work, just because a tail
dragger wants to swap ends onyou and land.
It's just the rudder work.
Yeah, and anyway Joe talked methrough it.
After 11 hours he said fly itfor a few more hours, you know.

(57:54):
So I flew it till a number 17hour.
I was getting halfway ascomfortable with it.
I told Judy I want you to be thefirst passenger in our airplane
, so she'd come down the airport.
We went down there and wejumped.
The airplane flew around thevalley and I was landing at
Enterprise and I always didthree-point landings, then Come
down, did a really nice landing,but a little gust of wind
picked up my right wing and yougot to know what to do at that

(58:17):
situation.
I had to think about it insteadof just react and I scraped my
right, my left wing tip and myleft elevator on the gravel
there and I don't cuss a lot.
But Judy said the first wordsout of my mouth was that's a
goddamn $5,000 bill.
I mean that's.

(58:38):
And anyway, I taxied and shewasn't scared.
I mean it didn't scare her atall.
We taxied, put it in the hangar, got ahold of Dave, told him
what I did.
Anyway, we took the left wingoff, took it up to a gentleman,
bill Sapp, in Omak Washington,who had a jig for a Cessna wing.
He takes it apart, he calls meup and he said Bill, he says

(59:01):
that wing is horrible.
He says not, because what youdid?
He said somebody else haswrecked this airplane before and
it spliced a bunch of the ribsinside and he said you know, a
10-year-old kid could have donea better job fixing that.
He says I got to repair thewhole wing.
So anyway, the insurancecompany bought my left wing.

(59:22):
He calls me back and he saidI'm worried about your other
wing.
And so Dave and I tore theother wing off, took it up to
bill, brought the new wing backand 60 in that original wing,
60% of the rivets were bad inthat because of what those
people?
How bad they had done.
Well, the other wing, 80% ofthe rivets in that other wing

(59:44):
were.
I mean, he sent me pictures thewing, 80 of the rivets in that
other wing were.
I mean, he sent me pictures thatwould scare you to death.
And so, yeah, the insurancecompany paid for my left wing
bill, paid for the right wing,which shouldn't be five thousand
dollars a wing to get it fixed.
But it was a blessing indisguise.
So now I got two new wings, Igot a whole new wing on my
airplane, uh, but you know thatthing could have.
If you had seen some of thoseribs in there, it would scare

(01:00:05):
you to death.
Yeah, you know that thing couldhave if you had seen some of
those ribs in there, it wouldhave scared you to death.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Well, sounds like it's a good thing that you it
was a blessing in disguiseperiod Drag the runway with your
wingtip a little bit, I meanyeah, there's always an upside
to every little story, you know,no matter how bad it is.
And are you still flying thatplane?

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
Oh, I've got about 1600 hours on it.
1600 hours, yeah, it's, uh, ithad no 300.
If you're familiar with uhairplane, it's 145 horse
continental.
Well, uh, and I'd go into some.
Really I love going to the backcountry all over idaho and flew
it to alaska and uh, and judy,she goes with me a lot of times,
she loves going down to thecanyon and stuff, and with that

(01:00:51):
engine that didn't have a lot ofpower, you had to watch the
temperature.
Every 10 pounds in thatairplane would make a difference
on how it performed period.
And so you got, I mean youwatched everything and really
for those 1,100 hours that Iflew on, that engine made me a
much better pilot.
And because I'd watch, I meanI'd take a pee before I left,

(01:01:12):
you know.
And one day at breakfast judyand I were sitting around our
wood cook stove and he says youever thought about putting a
bigger engine in that?

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
well, I've been thinking about that for years
yeah, obviously I'm a man, I'mthinking about putting a bigger
engine and everything and inthree seconds I called the
gentleman in Visalia, california, who makes a really good engine
.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
I said, hey, anyway, yeah, we put a 180-horse, what
we call a Lykon conversion, init.
Nice In that thing.
And that changed.
I tell people now the onlysimilarities between my old
airplane and the new airplane isthe color.
I can probably do what a 180can do easily.

(01:01:52):
It only burns three moregallons an hour, nice.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Well, that's pretty cool, yeah, Okay, last piece of
advice, last question Wildlifelaws are tricky and I think that
a lot of folks with the verybest of intentions can still get
it wrong Just because there's alot of rules and regulations
out there and I think that a lotof folks see this as a barrier

(01:02:26):
to entry.
People who are interested ingetting into hunting, interested
in getting into fishing, theydon't understand the language,
the regulations, so they're likeyou know, it's too difficult, I
don't, I'm just not going to doit.
I'll take up, you know, pingpong or something like that golf

(01:02:46):
.
So what advice do you have topeople who don't necessarily
have that mentor they don't havethat family history for how to
get into hunting and fishing andnot getting themselves in
trouble?

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
You know, unfortunately you hit the nail
on the head there, james Becauseof our family structure,
anymore there's a lot of youngpeople that would love the
outdoors, right, don't have theguidance to get them into it
because maybe the father or themother or the grandpa doesn't
hunt or fish.
I'll relate back to that time.

(01:03:21):
I wanted to talk to John inPendleton, the biologist there.
Talk to somebody, I don't carewhether it be a retired me or
just an experienced hunteryou're talking about.
Those regulations are morecomplex nowadays.
Yes, there's no doubt in mymind, cause when people ask me
questions, they know my backhistory on my career.

(01:03:43):
I always preference the answerthis is a 24 year old answer
because I've been retired for 24years.
You know things have changedsince then.
And uh, you know, or I'm doing,I'm asking them to look it up,
you know, because they there'sprobably not a lot of
similarities.
Uh, maybe there is, I don'tknow.
But uh, yeah, you know, justask people.

(01:04:05):
Uh, you know, talk to peopleand I tell it to pilots.
I had a pilot call me up lastnight, an older gentleman I say
older, being in his fifties,just learning how to fly.
He said Bill, my landings.
I just can't get my landingsdown.
You know he's taking Andy andhe's taking him out and I said

(01:04:25):
the best thing you can do isjust start talking to other
pilots.
I happened to.
I'm really involved in aviationnationwide.
I'm a director for the IdahoAviation Association.
I tell people after I retired Iwork a hell of a lot harder now
.
I get paid a hell of a lot less, but I'm doing it for what Bill
wants to do.
You know we maintain all theairstrips in Hell's Canyon, all

(01:04:46):
throughout Idaho.
But anyway, I told thisgentleman I said you know, just
talk to pilots.
We'll have a work party, let'ssay at Doug Barr down there, and
we'll get.
We've had as many as 46airplanes come in to Doug Barr,
49 actually that day and youknow these people work their
hindies off.
We come back, we feed them abig lunch I like to make sure

(01:05:07):
all these people are very wellfed and then you just start
talking and I learn more atthose work parties talking to
other pilots than you'll ever doat a course.
You know, I mean it's andyou'll get people like Dick
Williams.
He's coming to our aviation.
We got to have a winteraviation banquet up here in
February 15th at the lodge.

(01:05:28):
And if you know Dick Williams,he's a gentleman who's flown
everything from Super Cubs toLear Jets.
He worked for the Harrah'sLodge that used to own the
Middle Fork Lodge and anyway,dick's got more stories and he's
written three books that I'maware of.

(01:05:50):
And but, yeah, just findsomebody with some experience,
whether they're a lady, a man, akid.
If you've got that interest,pursue it, because the answer's
there, the answer's really there.
And I told this one young manor this gentleman last night

(01:06:11):
that's Clint Clint.
He wants to know how I chuckyour head, how many shots I
missed, because he had a bad dayyesterday over here.
Clint, you're screwing up mypodcast, but uh, but anyway, uh,
yeah, uh, I mean the answersare out there.
Talk to folks like you.
I mean guys are looking up toand what you do with this

(01:06:31):
podcast is is phenomenal, youknow.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
Well, I, I, I think you've got a good point, like
you've got to talk to people,but you also need to.
You need to go ahead and readthat regulation because you know
it is hard, but you, you canlook at it, you can read it, and
then you can ask somebody.
But you, you can look at it, youcan read it, and then you can
ask somebody Um, but there'slots of people who are willing

(01:06:55):
to help you.
Even if you're just going downto your state game and, uh, fish
and game office, there's goingto be somebody in that building.
I don't care what state you'rein, there's going to be somebody
in that building that will takethe time out of their day to
explain that to you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
And explain that to you, and they're tickled to do
it.
Yeah, I mean again, I'm talking24 year old 24 year and if
you've got questions, ask.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
you know I've had questions that we couldn't
figure out with the state gametroops.
We couldn't figure out, um withour district attorney, um, so
we had to send it all the way upto the Department of Justice
for the state to try to figureout if something was legal or
not.
So if you've got questions, askthem right, because some of
this stuff is kind ofcomplicated.

(01:07:40):
But if you can come up with anovel question like that, people
are going to sink their teethinto trying to figure out what
the answer is.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
Yeah, I totally agree with you.
I can remember back in OregonState, you know, the profs back
then were teaching all theirwildlife students that the
predators I'm talking coyotes,cougars and cats they killed the
sick and the weak.
I mean that was totally whatthey were teaching us and people
still believe that.
Unfortunately they do.

(01:08:08):
Yeah, I mean, and I've workedwith Vic a lot, I mean, but they
were so far wrong on that, butthat's what they were teaching
their biologists.
And now I got a good.
I don't know if you know MikeSlagle did his mountain goat
study up here back in the 70s,worked for Idaho Fish and Game
for years.
I was at a meeting with himover in Grainville, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
I read one of his books.
Do you write a book called abeast, the color of winter, or
something like that Sounds right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Yes, yeah.
But Mike was saying, bill, youwon't believe what I'm doing.
I go, what's that?
He says I'm putting on classesfor Idaho fish and game
biologists teaching them how tofish and how people hunt fish
and how people hunt.
I go say that again.
He said these biologists havebeen to college, they've never

(01:08:55):
fished, they've never hunted andnow they're biologists in
Lehigh County or wherever, andso I'm going to them telling
them what their constituents aredoing out there.
These kids are computer peopleand I'm not much for computer
modeling.
I mean, if you're not on theground seeing what's out there,

(01:09:16):
I mean computer modeling can doyou justice, but don't rely
solely on that.
That.
Just that just irritates me tono end.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Yeah, yeah, I call it spreadsheet, biology that's and
uh, you're nicer than I am.
Yeah, and I I've gottencriticized by a biologist for
saying that, but no, I do thinkyou got to get out in the field
a heck of a lot more than whatfolks are and then also
reference the old timers and diginto the history and like find

(01:09:46):
every resource that you can Like.
You're talking about going outto the Dorrance Corrals and the
education that you got doingthat.
I don't see anybody taking thetime to do stuff like that.
Now, yeah, mostly wildlifebiologists discredit ranchers
and loggers and cattlemen orsheep herders who've been out

(01:10:06):
there their whole lives.
They're like well, you don'thave a degree in this.

Speaker 1 (01:10:12):
Oh yes, they do.
You don't fit into my Excelspreadsheet.
Oh, yes, they do.
I can remember going into MacBerkmeyer's place out here on
Cro-Crick and Tommy sticking hishead around a chair.
I think he was nine years old.
You're looking at this guy in abadge, you know?
Like what are you doing in ourhouse?
You know, and Mac was a realsource for me out in that
country you gotta do it so Idon't get lost.

(01:10:35):
And then we had otherconversations Jack, mclaren,
jack and Marge.
I'll tell you what they dealtwith the hunting public as good
as any landowner I've ever known.
Marge would call me up in thefall.
Give me the combination oftheir locks.
They want me up there.
You know it's a lot of work forthese landowners to, in the
fall, give me the combination oftheir locks, they want me up
there.
You know, uh, no, they, they.
It's a lot of work for theselandowners to accommodate our

(01:10:59):
hunting public.
It's brutal, it's absolutelybrutal.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
There you go, uh yeah , and and there's a lot of bad
experiences that happen and thenlandowners say you know what,
it's not worth my time, it's notworth my time to answer phone
calls for four months out of theyear and have my cattle get out
through gates that get leftopen and see your trash.
And you know, this guy left afire burning.
And then they say no, and thenyou know the rest of the public

(01:11:25):
is furious that they can't hunta place that they used to be
able to.
It's like can you blame them?
Can you?
You really blame that rancherfor saying no?

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
now I remember Jack McLaren telling me Bill, I'm
going to have to charge thesepeople $25 a rifle to come up
Lightning Creek Because it takesme.
I got to drag a cat down there,blade my road out and I said,
jack, I said these guys theywouldn't have a qualm paying 25,
they'll pay more than that, buthe was, he felt bad right,

(01:11:58):
wanting to charge him to helpmaintain that road.

Speaker 2 (01:12:01):
yeah, you know and uh , yeah, yeah, I wish I could
have done a podcast with jack.
He was a.
He was a tanker in africa whenthose guys had, uh, a life
expectancy that was about eightminutes long.
Oh geez.

Speaker 1 (01:12:15):
Yeah Well, his dad, joe McLaren.
I don't know if you ever heardabout Joe.
I was down working LightningCreek Again, marge had given us
the combinations.
The locks Went up there afterdark.
I was going to camp up at oneof the old cabins above the
ranch there and I had a fish andwildlife gentleman with me and

(01:12:35):
I could see lights on at theLightning Creek Ranch in there
and so we pulled in there.
I just wanted to let him know Iwas up there, you know.
And Joe came to the room.
He had a friend of his downthere with him.
He said where are you boysgoing to camp?
I said I'm going to camp up theold cabin up there, another
mile or so above the ranch.
And he said you guys, just thetwo of you.
I said yeah.

(01:12:55):
He says well, hey, have youeaten dinner?
I said well, not yet, we'regoing to cook it up there.
He said get in here.
We got leftovers and we wentinto that house, cabin or
whatever you call it, and theyfed us a heck of a spread.
And then we started drinkingwhiskey and he said you boys are
staying in the bunkhouse, youknow.
And uh, we drank whiskey tilltwo o'clock in the morning and I

(01:13:18):
learned more from joe mclarenabout, I mean, I learned more
about the old trails and stuffin that country down there.
I said joe, I says why is yourcombination issue 1926?
How do you come up with thesenumbers?
He's always says that's theyear I brought my bride off from
Buckhorn.
I just bought this homesteaddown here.
And he says my idea was I wasgoing to come down here and, you

(01:13:40):
know, work it and then buy afew more and sell it.
And he kind of looks at me andhe says do you think it's time
to sell?
Yet you know, and I mean he wasa neat man.

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
I enjoyed that.
Yeah, you know, and I mean hewas a neat man he's.
I enjoyed that.
Yeah, yeah, pretty cool.
Well, bill, we ran a little bitover time here, but I
appreciate your appreciate yourtime and, uh, I love the stories
.
I love the stories and now thattrucker season is over you're
gonna have to find somethingelse to do with your life.

(01:14:12):
My weight's going to go back up, all right, well, you better
give Clint a call and let himknow how it went.
And yeah, I won't tell on youif you exaggerate.

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):
I appreciate your time, james, and what you do
really do.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
Thank you.
Thank you to everyone who hastaken the time out of their busy
lives to write a review for theshow and share it with their
friends.
I'm extremely proud of howintelligent, engaged and
adventurous this audience is.
Original music for the SixRanch Podcast is written and
performed by Justin Hay.

(01:14:48):
Art for the Sixth Ranch podcastwas created by John Chatelain
and digitized by Celia Harlander.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you again next week.