On this episode of 6 Star Business, we chat with Shel Horowitz about how individuals can make a difference in the world today. We delve into various topics such as environmentalism, social justice, sustainable business practices, and gratitude. The podcast covers how businesses can integrate sustainability and social responsibility within their operations and their marketing strategies, pointing out the benefits of being a trailblazer for positive change. Additionally, Horowitz shares his experiences and offers strategic tips on how to initiate and sustain change. We also discuss the importance of personal growth, learning, and finding joy in simple things.
Here’s a summary of what we discussed:
00:03:07 Developing profitable products with social benefits.
00:21:54 Marketing and social change are intertwined; examples of ordinary people creating change.
00:41:50 "Sustainability is good for business and world."
00:50:34 Going beyond 5 stars is possible.
00:54:43 Overcoming limiting beliefs, living frugally, adventurously.
01:01:11 Collaboration exists among different species in nature.
01:05:19 Follow your heart, modify dreams, gradual change.
and much more… enjoy!
Here’s some information about our guest:
Shel Horowitz, CEO & Founder of Going Beyond Sustainability; Transformpreneur
Shel Horowitz works with companies to find the sweet spot where profitability meets environmental and social good: helping to create, identify, and market products and services that turn hunger and poverty into abundance, racism and othering into equity, war into peace, catastrophic climate change into planetary balance, and pandemic disease into global health. His latest award-winning book, Guerrilla Marketing to Heal the World, is endorsed by Seth Godin, Chicken Soup's Jack Canfield, and many others. Please give Shel your full attention as he shows how you, too, can be a big difference and a healthy profit.
Something Interesting About You
1) I started the movement that saved a mountain. 2) I've posted a daily public Gratitude Journal since March, 2018 (more than 1500 days, so far)
What are you famous for?
Looking for holistic solutions that accomplish multiple goals and may draw from across multiple industries or organization types.
Contact
W: https://www.GoingBeyondSustainability.com
LI: https://linkedin.com/in/shelhorowitzethicalmarketer
FB: https://facebook.com/shel.horowitz
TEDx Talk,
"Impossible is a Dare: Business for a Better World"
TedX: http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/11809
(move your mouse to "event videos")
The purpose of the Mission Activated podcast is to inspire people with the stories of people who are activated on their mission, and are living a life of purpose, passion and alignment. Being in business is not just about money: it's about bringing our genius and our gifts to the world to impact others.
If you'd like to get in touch please contact us at contact@6starleaders.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Again.
that world I was born into wasa racist, sexist, polluted place
that we've made enormousstrides to get out from under
some of those burdens And I liketo think that my work
contributed in some small andsome not so small ways to do
that.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hello, i'm your host, aveline Clark, and this is the
Six Star Business Podcast, wherewe have conversations with
amazing, incredible people, allabout what it takes to be Six
Star going beyond the status quo, doing things differently, and
how they bring purpose, love andimpact into their businesses
every day.
I love this episode, michelle.
(00:40):
He's just such a passionatelover of the earth, lover of
people, business and bringingthem all together in this nice
intersection of peace, harmony,collaboration, and that's what
he lives and breathes, that'show he operates, it's what
drives all the things he does.
(01:01):
When I asked him afterwards,what do you think your genius is
?
What is it that you do the best?
He said I help people findtheir sweet spot where
profitability meetsenvironmental and social good,
and that is exactly who he is.
It's a great conversation.
He's got a lot of interestinganecdotes, stories, a
(01:22):
perspective that I've not heardyet on this podcast, and Coray,
my co-host tonight, had a greattime talking with him.
So enjoy this one with ShellHorowitz.
Hello, here we are.
It's another episode of SixStar Business Podcast.
I'm so excited about this today.
First of all, welcome myco-host, coray.
(01:45):
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I'm fabulous and I'm looking forward to our new guest
And the amazing story he'sgoing to tell us.
So welcome Shell.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Thank you, welcome, shell.
So nice to have you here.
We're in a cross-continentconversation today, and this is
why I love technology, andnormally Coray's in Germany, but
he's in Australia at the moment, so we've got two continents
represented And, yeah, let's getinto this.
(02:17):
I'm going to start off byasking you just a few questions
so that we can get to know youbetter.
And first of all, can you tellus where you are in the world?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I am in Hadley, massachusetts, united States,
which is two hours from Boston,three and a half from New York
and long, long, many hours fromyou.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Thank you, so good to have you here.
I thoroughly enjoyed meetingyou for the first time recently,
and I knew that having you onthe podcast was going to be even
just more delightful, so thanksfor coming along.
I would love to know from youwho do you serve and how do you
(03:04):
serve them?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I look for the places where an organization can
profit by developing productsand services that hit the sweet
spot that incorporates bothprofitability and environmental
and social good And that maysound a little vague in general.
so I'll give you examples ofcompanies that are doing this.
(03:27):
For example, there's a numberof companies, one in particular
called D-Lite, d-period,l-i-g-h-t, that produce
solar-powered LED lamps and theysell them into places where
either there's been no lamp orthere's been kerosene, which is
toxic, flammable, dangerous,smelly, expensive and, of course
(03:49):
, a fossil fuel with a bigcarbon footprint.
So they sell these lamps on atime payment basis.
so if they were, the customerwas paying, say, $2 a month for
kerosene before they pay $2 amonth to the lamp and then they
can, 10 or 20 months later theyown the lamp.
And this is working on so manylevels because it's getting rid
(04:10):
of the nasty kerosene, it'sgetting rid of the fire hazard,
the fumes, it's providing betterquality light.
so maybe this family can starta sideline cottage industry or
the kids could get better gradesin school and go on to better
careers, jobs, of course for thepeople who sell and service the
units and, of course, a profitfor the company.
(04:31):
So that's kind of the model thatI try to emulate in my
consulting, but it's differentfor every single business or
organization that comes throughme, because it's not something
that you can just scale it out,cookie cutter.
It's going to be very much anindividual thing, tailored to
the strengths of that particularbusiness and the people who are
in it, as well as theircustomer networks, their
(04:52):
supplier networks and all therest of it.
So it's very exciting And I'veput a ton of information about
this on my website,goingbeyondsustainabilitycom,
and also in my 10th book,guerrilla Marketing to Heal the
World, which I co-authored withJay Conrad Levinson, who did the
(05:13):
first hundred or so Guerrillamarketing books.
And it's just every day isfresh and interesting and
exciting.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Wow, i listened to that and I'm just really in awe
and excited to hear what you'redoing for the world, for people,
and finding efficiencies.
But you're also innovatingbecause, like you said, your
approach is not cookie cutter.
It's not like you've got thistemplate that you then sell into
(05:45):
every company.
It's very unique to thatbusiness and also the market
they serve, and you're lookingfor solutions that actually
solve real problems and helppeople.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, things like hunger and poverty, racism,
climate change, war, littlethings like that, just the small
things.
And obviously no one company isgoing to solve all those things
with one product or service,but they'll chip away at it and
eventually you reach a criticalmass and society changes.
I think we're approaching thatpoint in a number of areas and
(06:18):
it's a very exciting time to bedoing this work.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
How long have you been doing this Well?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I started my business , oh my goodness, 42 years ago,
but it didn't look anything likewhat it looks like now And it
evolved many times, and I'd saythis evolution really started in
2000.
In 1999, a developer announcedthat he was going to build 40
big luxury homes on the mountainnext to the state park behind
(06:48):
my house, which those of youlisteners who are on video I
would know it That is the statepark, that mountain there, and
then the next mountain over waswhere that housing project was
going to be, and I was the onewho said no, i don't think
you're going to do that.
So I started this movement tosave that mountain And I thought
(07:08):
if we were enough of a pain inthe developer's project for a
long enough time that maybeafter about five years he would
go away.
Well, it only took 13 months.
We won a near total victory ina very short time, just over a
year.
And that campaign.
(07:29):
I have been both an organizerand a marketer for more than 50
years at this point and I'm only66.
So I started kind ofridiculously young And I was
kind of looking at what we haddone and what we had done right
and what we could have donebetter after that campaign was
over And I realized that I hadbrought in pretty much
(07:50):
everything I knew from themarketing world to win this
organizing campaign.
So then I started thinking whatcan I bring from the organizing
world, the social justice,environmental justice world,
into the business community?
So we won in very late 2000.
And by 2002, i was reallyincorporating this into my
speeches.
By 2003, i had the first offour books I've done on this
(08:14):
intersection of doing the rightthing with being a successful
business.
And it's just grown since then.
My thinking continues to evolveAnd I find that the world is
just again.
I know I used the word excitingalready, but it's really
fascinating How fast progress ishappening and yet there's this
(08:38):
other strand of how other forcesare trying to pull things in
the wrong direction.
So we now have the addedcomponent of trying to not only
do the right thing but putenough roadblocks in the people
who are trying to completelydestroy the earth we live on in
the service of short-term greedto show them a better way.
(08:58):
And one of the things I thinkthat really sets me apart from a
lot of people in theenvironmental business world is
that I look at business as anally.
I see that if you show businessthat this is actually a
successful formula, then youhave them on your side.
And we see lots and lots of bigcompanies are now understanding
this, and that was not truewhen I started this work.
(09:19):
But a few years ago I went tosomething called the Responsible
Business Summit and thespeakers were from companies
like Coca-Cola, danone, generalMotors.
I mean companies that 40 yearsago you would have never thought
are socially conscious.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Before we get into this, i'd love to ask Shell what
do you like doing when you'renot busy serving people?
Something you like to dooutside of this very important,
colorful work?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Well, outside is a big part of it.
I try to get out to our timeevery day.
I try to get two hours ofexercise a day and I like at
least one hour of that to beoutside.
I have that beautiful mountainthat you saw and I get to hike
on it, and we have lots of othergood hiking here.
I have a bicycle that I use.
I actually like to do free-formrock and roll dancing.
(10:11):
I am an addicted reader.
Most years I have read about 80books.
Since I started keeping track,last year it was only 60,
because I started doing cardioclasses every other day with my
wife and during the time that Ihad been reading on my exercise
bike.
(10:32):
I'm a person of many interests.
I love going to live music.
I love traveling to exoticplaces.
I have been to close to 50countries and all 50 US states
And I go there not just, oh, yousee the sights and drink the
beers, but I really look at howcan that experience serve the
people that I serve?
Also, like I went to Icelandand I came back writing about
(10:55):
how this country has basicallygone completely renewable for
anything that's not a vehicle,and this was back in 2011.
By now, they've probably doneit for a fair amount of their
vehicle fleet too.
I went to Israel and Palestineand came back talking about the
groups that were working forpeace in that troubled land.
So I'm always learning.
(11:18):
I'm very excited I'm going toJapan for a family wedding in
August And I've never been, andI'm sure that will be very
exciting and very growthful.
Be interesting to see, for onething, how the legendary bullet
train actually works And alsohow you deal with the incredible
(11:40):
crowd conditions, which I'vebeen to India and China, which
are both pretty crowded places,but in Japan there is this
filter of decorum on top of itthat is not necessarily present
in the other really crowdedplaces I've been, so I'm going
to be very curious to see whatthat's like.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
That's exciting.
I love your quest for adventureAnd you sound busier than most
people, many years your junior.
My life is too short to sayIt's true.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I didn't mention my grandson, who is a joy in my
life.
I spend a lot of time, usuallyabout three afternoons a week,
with him, and my wife and Iusually get together so we can't
get too tired because we'rethere to spell each other And
he's a bundle of energy and justwicked, responsive and smart,
and it's been such a treasure towatch him grow these last few
(12:42):
months.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Lovely, they're so precious, they're the moments,
right, the important things.
You've already shared so muchthat our listeners would be
going, wow, like you're creatingopportunities, you're a force
for good, you're finding ways toconnect profitability and
(13:04):
business into the world, theworld's frontline issues and
problems.
Really, i just I'd love to gointo this further Now.
I asked you, helen, you've beendoing it.
You shared a little bit aboutthe mountain, that story about
how you help save the mountainfrom the developer.
What's been, if there is therebeen some pivotal sort of
(13:28):
moments along your journeythat's brought you to where you
are today?
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, there were quite a few.
I'll share a couple of them.
The first one was all the wayback in 1969 when I was 12 years
old and I went to my firstdemonstration about the Vietnam
War.
And I was sitting therelistening to the speeches and
one of the speakers said theVietnam War is an undeclared war
.
And I had not known that and Ihad been the good little student
(13:58):
studying my social studies andlearning about the three
branches of American governmentand the checks and balances and
how everything was designed tomake sure that autocracy didn't
happen, and that all camecrashing down in that one
comment.
So then I started questioningabsolutely everything and
(14:18):
flirting with variousalternatives to the system we
had and learning more about.
Even back then it was prettyclear to me that these movements
were all related.
You hear these days a lot aboutthe synergies between climate
justice and racial and economicjustice and social justice, but
I guess I saw those connectionspretty early on.
(14:39):
I had a very working classfriend and old communist from
the 1940s who used to take us toa lot of demonstrations, me and
her three kids and one otherkid in the neighborhood and
listening to her I learned a lotabout what it was like for
working people.
I was raised socially middleclass and economically lower
(15:00):
class, which is an interestingdynamic A house full of books,
always going to museums, but themuseums were ones that didn't
charge admission concerts.
So having the middle classcultural aspects but also
growing up in a family thatreally didn't have extra money.
So, and then Adele was somebodywho never had any money, never
(15:24):
had the pretense of money, butshe had really solid connections
in the labor movement, in someof the non-mainstream political
parties, And she also found timefor art in her life.
She sang in Pete Seeker'sChorus.
She was the one who introducedme to Melvina Reynolds and Led
Belly's music.
It was very exciting to haveher as a mentor very early.
(15:47):
So I didn't start going todemonstrations with her until
after that day when I heard thatspeaker.
But then I became friends,first with her daughter, who was
my age, and then with her, Andthat was a major influence.
I'll skip forward a couple ofyears.
In college I did a researchpaper on the pros and cons of
(16:08):
nuclear power And I discoveredvery, very quickly that there
aren't any pros and that thecons were far more serious than
I thought.
So I got into the safe energymovement and got arrested at a
nuclear power plant constructionsite in 1977.
And it turned out that thataction was way more significant
(16:29):
than we knew at the time.
We 1,414 of us were arrested,which is a pretty large number,
especially for a state like NewHampshire, which is a very small
rural state.
They didn't actually have roomfor 1,400 people in their jail
system, So they put us inNational Guard Armories and had
these 17 year old National Guardkids guarding us And we had
(16:51):
dialogues with them.
We had a little university inthere.
People who knew more than otherpeople in the room about
something would share it And itwas just this amazing learning
community.
And we came out and lo andbehold, all over the US,
movements very similar to theClamshell Alliance, which was
the group that I was in, hadsprung up in every part of the
(17:15):
country the Sunflower Allianceand the Abalone Alliance.
They were all using the samenonviolent group processes that
we were using, involvingconsensus.
They were all very similaranalyses about why nuclear power
didn't work and what we can doinstead, which was solar, wind,
hydro, etc.
So by doing this action, wecreated a national movement, And
(17:39):
that's not all.
Because of that nationalmovement, I am convinced, is the
reason why, when Three MileIsland happened, two years later
we heard about it, Whereas wehad not heard about Browns Ferry
in Alabama in 1975 and RicoFermi in Michigan in 1966 and
some other really seriousnuclear accidents that had
happened before this movement.
(18:00):
And because of Three MileIsland and the movie The China
Syndrome which was alsoinfluenced by us, I think, and
these groups sprouting up allover the country, that dream of
stuffing nuclear power downeverybody's throats all around
the country didn't happen.
They topped off in the UnitedStates in 104.
Richard Nixon, who waspresident in the 1960s and 70s.
(18:21):
He said we needed to have athousand.
So that was a real thing thatwe did is we stopped that
movement one tenth of the waybefore that goal.
So let's see.
Oh, I guess going off tocollege and getting involved
with the LGBT and women'scommunities.
(18:42):
There was an important step inmy own personal understanding of
different kinds of oppressionGoing to live in a social change
community for nine months Andthen coming up here and learning
how to function in a rural,traditional New England culture
after growing up in New YorkCity and going to school in a
(19:05):
radicals campus in Ohio.
So all of those prepped me forbeing able to step into that
moment when this developerannounced that plan and
organized this brand newmovement And then from there it
just kept kept growing It's.
I am one of those people whothinks I will continue growing
(19:28):
and learning until I can't openmy eyes, can't breathe and I'm
underground.
Basically, I am never going tobe one of those people who said
I'm done.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I can tell that about you.
It must feel really rewardingto see the journey like in
hindsight and look at thosepivotal moments and see how
you've created some impact inothers and the ripple effect of
that.
It must just fuel you in someway, Oh absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yes, yes, i get totally juiced when I'm talking,
giving a speech, and I can seepeople kind of like you can see
the wheels turning and thenthinking, oh, i never thought of
it that way before.
And yes, this possibility forchange One of the things that I
do.
It's not in my TED Talk, iadded it later, but my keynote
(20:29):
speech is usually calledimpossible as a dare and it's
based on this wonderful quotefrom, of all people, muhammad
Ali Impossible is just a bigword thrown around by small men
who find it easier to live inthe world they've been given
than to explore the possibility.
They have to change it.
(20:49):
Sorry, the power.
They have to change it.
My eyes just played a trick onme.
Impossible is not a fact, it'san opinion.
Impossible is not a declaration, it's a dare.
Impossible is potential.
Impossible is temporary,impossible is nothing.
I love that.
Yeah, that anchored my TED Talkand many of the speeches I've
(21:15):
done since.
And again, reading I would loveto see every world leader
having a copy of this book andhaving a copy of Paul Pullman's
book, net Positive and PaulPollock's book on business
solution to poverty, and there'sa reading list I would love to
give every president and worldleader in this world.
(21:36):
And not all of them are booksI've written, but some of them
are.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Are you first and foremost an activist for change
and a marketer second, or do yousee them as intertwined?
Speaker 1 (21:54):
They're completely intertwined, it's like braided
hair.
Everything I've ever done insocial change has included my
marketing skills and everythingI've ever done in marketing has
included at least my socialchange analysis And the things
like looking beyond silos,looking for the intersections.
(22:15):
That all comes from the socialchange side, looking at the
power of ordinary people, andthis is something a lot of
business owners maybe.
They start their business witha great idea but they don't
necessarily have the skills tocarry it out.
And I talk about people like aseamstress named Rosa Parks, who
was the quintessential fulcrumpoint for the civil rights
(22:40):
movement at one time, and shewas, incidentally, that was not
a random act, she was a trainedactivist and most people don't
know that, but she, yeah, shesees the moment.
And then a bunch of people,including Martin Luther King,
spent a year supporting thatmovement, and so that was one
(23:02):
kind of ordinary person.
And going to Coray's continent,we have the example of a
shipyard electrician in Poland,right next to his country of
Germany, named Lekwalesa, whostarted the solidarity movement
or was one of its leaders andbecame Poland's president
eventually.
So you know if a shipyardelectrician and a seamstress can
(23:27):
make earth-shattering changes.
Or in Avelines' hemisphere,there's the South African
example of Nelson Mandela, whowould have thought that somebody
serving a life sentence for hewasn't a terrorist, but that was
basically what he was convictedof would become a superhero,
(23:50):
and who would have thought thatthe ordinary people of Ireland
and Northern Ireland could makea peace.
That's as somebody who's beeninvolved in Israel-Palestine
stuff for a long time.
I keep focusing on those twoexamples of South Africa and
Ireland because it's I need tohave hope that it's possible,
(24:11):
and it looks very bad,especially with the new Israeli
government.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
There's a lot there.
So you've spent your life inservice to the world and the
problems that you see in theworld and constantly living,
like you say, in hope thatchange is possible, and there's.
I believe change is possiblebecause we see it, i mean by
(24:40):
virtue of this organism, of theplanet and life we're always
changing It's about.
I think, how can this changehappen for good, rather than
separate and just be just changein a destructive way rather
than a positive, constructiveway?
And I see you as a mechanismfor assisting that constructive,
(25:03):
positive change, which isreally exciting, challenging,
but yeah, like you said, whycan't there be more Nelson
Mandela's and Rosa Parks and thepresident of Pakistan?
sorry, poland, poland, and whynot shell?
(25:23):
I mean, the most powerful peopleI believe are those typically
behind the scenes, the smallerperson that's actually doing a
lot of this work and organizingthings, and sometimes they're
the ones that matter the most.
So the work you're doing isreally important And I just want
to honor you for that and saythank you, thank you for being
(25:45):
you and being courageous andbrave.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
It's really, really validating to have that said,
and so thank you, And it's alsoI really do believe that each of
us has the power to be a changeagent and that none of us can
do it all.
So we have to work togetherwith others and we have to pick
our movements and our battles,but it's totally possible.
I mean the enormous amount ofchange in my little tiny
(26:14):
lifetime a speck in geologictime, huge pain when the things
like the culture of sexism thatI was born into, the culture of
racism those are things that arenot okay anymore in most parts
(26:34):
of society.
There are the extremists, ofcourse, and they're very loud
and obnoxious and they do thingslike try to overrun the capital
of the United States but or toelect horrible governors in some
states that are really tryingto be little dictators.
But they are the minority.
Most people want to live a goodlife and to live in harmony
(26:57):
with the other people aroundthem and with the planet that
they're on.
And in one of my other talks, inmaking green sexy, i talk about
different kinds of markets forgreen products and services, and
it might be worth sharing thatlittle bit here, because you
have the one extreme, you havethe super committed, the deep
(27:20):
greens, people like me who liveand breathe this stuff, who will
make all of their consumerchoices based on how good is
this for the planet and for thedifferent groups of people and
other creatures involved.
And then you have what I callthe lazy greens people like my
mother-in-law, who buys therecycled toilet paper brand
(27:42):
because she is in thesupermarket and it is stocked on
the shelves next to the VirginForest brands, so she will not
go out of her way to make animpact, but if the impact is
right there as a simple choice,she'll take it.
And then you have thenon-greens, who have to be
convinced of the value of whatyou're offering.
And then, even more, you havethe anti-greens, the hostels,
(28:06):
and you can sell green productsand services to the hostile ones
.
You just have to do it based onwhat's in it for them.
So I'm not saying that thiscompany is hostile to green.
They're actually veryproactively green.
But what is the retailer thatprobably has the reputation,
(28:28):
more than any other retailer,for being all about the bottom
line, for being all aboutprofitability?
Here in the US, it's Walmart.
And if ever there was not atree hugger company, it's
Walmart.
And yet in all my years ofconsulting and speaking and
writing on these issues, i willnever do one hundredth of what
(28:50):
Walmart has done to green'ssupply chain.
Because basically they toldtheir suppliers if you want to
sell in our shelves, you got toclean up your act.
And they had very, totallyselfish reasons for it.
They are actually.
We have a huge supermarket chainthat's all natural foods,
called Whole Foods in the UnitedStates And Walmart sells more
(29:12):
organic food than Whole Foodsand they sell it to working
class people who don't go toWhole Foods.
So they basically doubled themarket.
They sell I don't know how manyhundreds of thousands of low
watt LED light bulbs, low flushtoilets, and they're doing it to
(29:32):
make money.
And they've also slashed theirown energy costs to redesigning
their trucks, their buildingsand everything else to really
take advantage of designing withthe earth as opposed to opposed
to it.
And if Walmart can do it, thenthe hippie companies like
Patagonia and Ben and Jerry'shave it easy, because their
(29:54):
market is right there, in lineas the deep green market.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
And, of course, walmart, like you say.
I mean they're one of thelargest retailers And in
Australia we have, i guess we'vegot Target Paymart.
They're kind of similar to theWalmart.
I mean, yeah, we've got Costcobut there's only a few Costco
stores in Australia But it'sreally that Target kind of big W
(30:24):
brand And I can see, justlistening to what you're saying,
how I say easy but influentialit is for a company like Walmart
to make that little switch andthen impact a massive supply
chain and the customers And youknow so many other people.
(30:45):
The ripple effect is hugebecause of the reach that they
have.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
And you mentioned Costco.
That's actually a company thatI love to talk about.
also.
Their previous CEO in about 20years ago, man named Jim Senegal
, was quite a visionary.
Among other things, he took asalary that is, by you know,
large corporation standards.
He was working for free.
(31:10):
He was making like somethinglike $300,000 a year And he was
paying his workers at a timewhen Walmart and Sam's Club were
paying like $8 an hour US.
He was paying 17.
And he was.
if you've ever been in a Costco, you know people are going
(31:31):
there to shop.
I mean, it is crowded And theirprices are low and their
quality is pretty good And theyhad all these social innovations
.
at the time, A lot of companies, a lot of really old companies,
started as social impactcompanies.
Oddly enough, the chocolateindustry is full of them Cadbury
(31:52):
and the whole BritishCommonwealth, Hershey over here
in America.
those were started as socialimpact companies.
They did amazing things fortheir workers in the 1850s,
1860s.
Somewhere along the way theylost their way And now I
actually eat quite a bit ofchocolate and all the chocolate
I buy is fair trade and organic,And that puts Hershey's out of
(32:16):
the question, And I thinkCadbury has a few that qualify,
but their stuff is too sweet forme.
anyway.
I like really dark chocolate,So I buy brands like Theo and
Equal Exchange.
I'm getting my bars ofsomewhere between 70 and 100%.
(32:37):
But these are things we, asindividual consumers.
we can choose not to buy fromthe companies that are
exploiting others.
We can choose not to buy fromthe companies that are not doing
right by the earth.
And you think you don't haveany impact.
but if you and your 10,000 bestfriends on Facebook all decide
to do something at the same time, you have more impact than you
(32:59):
think of.
And, speaking of Facebook, Ishould mention that I have a
gratitude practice.
that's public and I have donefor more than 1500 days.
I have chronicled on Facebookwhat I'm grateful for that day.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
And that really amazes me, shell, because of how
busy you are and what you dothat you have the time to sit
down and write this dailygratitude piece and publish on
Facebook.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I make the time I probably average an hour a day
on it And, interestingly enough,it's built in my community on
Facebook.
I have all these people payingattention to that who never paid
anything else and he attentionto any of the other things I did
, but it's been a healingprocess for me.
It forces me to go around myday looking for things to be
(33:48):
grateful for and then takingenough photos that I remember
them, and this interview will bein tonight's, which may not get
posted till tomorrow morning,because some of the things I
need to get done today, but Ithink today is something like
day 1500 and 30.
I started in March 2018.
(34:09):
And also, writing is a skillthat comes easily to me and is
how I've made a big chunk of myliving for many, many decades,
and having that.
So for me to write a gratitudejournal is not as daunting,
maybe, as for someone else who'snot a writer to do that.
(34:32):
I've written 10 books andthousands of articles and
probably a couple thousand poems, and writing is just one of the
things that I do, and I do.
You know I look for joy in mylife and the gratitude journal
helps me to find that, and but Ialways did, even before I
started doing that And I lookfor ways to make other people's
(34:53):
lives joyful.
I'm always introducing people toother people I think they
should know, or sending a clipinto social media like, oh, look
what this cool project is doingon the other side of the world,
and then doing writingmaterials that will actually
help people.
So, for example, because youwere listening to this call
(35:14):
today, if you go to Going BeyondSustainable, that try that
again.
Going Beyond Sustainabilitythere we go Dot com, slash
freebies.
You'll see a whole bunch ofgifts, and the one that I want
to highlight tonight is called10 success and profitability
secrets for businesses lookingto do social and environmental
(35:35):
good, and it's both a real quickcheat sheet of the 10 points
and then a few pages of goinginto some detail about them, but
the whole thing's only, i think, six pages and it's an easy
read.
And you get that along with thesubscription to my newsletter
that I've been publishing.
Oh, my goodness, i startedpublishing my first easy in 1996
(35:57):
, 97, somewhere around there along time ago.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
You're a writer.
you're experienced.
That's very clear.
Thank you for sharing that URLwith your freebies, by the way,
and we'll have that in the notesso people can go there and grab
your or your freebies and yourgifts.
Thank you, they sound awesome.
I just want to touch on the joyand the gratitude, and so this
is such a simple thing.
(36:24):
But as you were talking, itbecame really clear that
everything that you're doingit's not for your benefit, right
, right back from when you wentto that first protest.
the whole reason that you wantto see change in the world is to
create more joy.
Would that be right?
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Partially right To create more joy, but also
because I'm selfish, because Iwant a better world and the way
I see myself as getting to abetter world is to helping to
create it.
Yeah, So I will not.
I will not actually accept thecondition that you put on it
that I'm doing this asself-sacrifice, because it's not
a sacrifice.
It's work that I find greatfulfillment in and that I have
(37:03):
been privileged to be in somemovements where we actually won,
which is not a privilege thatevery activist gets to have.
I've been in plenty that didn'twin, But what I do feel is
winning is the overall tide.
Again, that world I was borninto was a racist, sexist,
(37:53):
polluted place that we've madeenormous strides to get out from
under some of those burdens AndI like to think that my work
contributed in some small andsome not so small ways to do
that.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
And I have on the activist side there are really
three places I'm putting energyright now.
One is immigration justice inthe West which is still a
nightmare you've just said.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
The second is local electoral politics in my tiny
little community of 5,000.
And we have twice taken overthe governing body of the town
with people who are aligned withthese ideas of change.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And then the third one is back to what I was doing
in the 1970s unsafe energy.
He's taking notes and he'sgoing to come out with something
soon.
Of those three passions, shell,which one?
of you folks is right now, i'mnot wired that way.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
I am taking some of your energy and attention.
I don't call myself ageneralist.
I call myself a multispecialist.
Well, today I was.
(39:27):
We just had our first in personmeeting after three years of
only doing Zoom for ourimmigration justice group, which
is called Jewish activists forimmigration justice of Western
Massachusetts, and out of thatmeeting we decided to revisit
the mission statement that wewrote in 2019.
And my wife actually just madea pass at summarizing all the
(39:51):
things that came out of thatmeeting that we wanted to put in
, and then I went through it anddid an edit of that.
So that's what I did about twohours before we had this call.
And but you know, i really kindof juggle them all because
later in the week I have ameeting the clamshell alliance
website committee that I'm onwhich is bringing back a website
(40:13):
that went dead when ourwebmaster died and took the
passwords to the grave.
So we lost that domain and weput up a new domain and we put
up new content.
And there's this wonderfulstatement that we've
collaborated on about whynuclear power still makes
absolutely no sense and what thealternatives are, and another
piece of it about the history ofthe organization and the
(40:34):
process innovations that wecreated, which I would say
Speaker 2 (40:38):
influenced heavily, like occupying a little bit and
standing rock movement.
Because I'm thinking about thelist.
So it's nice to see that ourmost of our list is still
relevant and is stillinfluencing people?
Maybe medium-sized businessowners.
they're entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
And this week.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
I don't have to do anything about this, thinking
about we had our election.
What can they take from this,or what can they, what can you
advise them or give them as away for them to even think about
this, like what's in it forthem, if they haven't already
thought about it?
How can they take that firststep to becoming more conscious
(41:15):
or open and aware about this?
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Okay, i love that question and it's going to take
a few minutes to give it its due.
So, for starters, you want tolook at the low hanging fruit.
Where are the places wheredoing the right thing will
actually cut your expenses,increase your profits?
That's usually there's a lot ofthat to find, and then if you
want to go to the deeper stuff,then you can start funding out
(42:12):
of the savings you've alreadycreated.
So that's one thing.
Another is to look at thebenefits.
The world is demanding this.
Companies that are notaddressing these issues are
going to be left behind, becauseif people have a choice between
something that is the samequality and the same price,
something that's going to make adifference in the world or is
(42:36):
going to continue the dangerousstatus quo, they're going to go
with the one that makes thepositive difference, and you see
this in something even ascommodified as ice cream.
If you're in the super premiumaisle of the supermarket and you
can choose a brand that youknow is doing good things with
its money, like Ben and Jerry's,or one that is part of a big,
(43:01):
nasty conglomerate that is knownfor abusing its workers and
polluting the area where itsplants are and passing a far
greater percentage to highexecutives and far lower
percentage to the workers.
Where are you going to put yoursix bucks for that pint of ice
(43:21):
cream?
You see this in how Toyota gotin early with the Prius and, lo
and behold, this funky lookingcar with an electric motor
became a status symbol, and allthese wealthy people were buying
Priyai, and so there are a lotof advantages there.
(43:45):
The other thing is, i normallygive 15 minutes of free
consultation to anybody who asks, but for Aveline's tribe I'll
make it 30.
And that's enough to go prettydeep.
I mean, we've been on this callfor not much more than that,
and we've covered a lot ofground, and so you can go to I'm
(44:06):
sure that Aveline will put thelink to my scheduler in the show
page And so just mention thatyou were on this call and you
get a half an hour of my timefor free and we can look at what
you have done in your businessso far.
Where are the strengths?
where are the adaptabilities?
(44:27):
where can this thing you'vedone with one goal or one
process be twisted inside out tocome out a little differently?
Maybe it's a different audienceor market, or maybe it's an
extra step in the process, ormaybe it's a new product
entirely that you didn't thinkabout, but that is really well
within your wheelhouse And again, it's bespoke.
It's going to be different forevery single one, and to me that
(44:50):
makes it fun, because I've gotenough ADHD that I don't want to
do the same thing over and overand over.
But for the companies it'sgreat, because they get my brain
for a half an hour and then, ifthey want to go deeper, my
rates are quite affordable.
And just today I was on a getto know you call, like the one
that you and I had some weeksback, and he asked me oh, what's
(45:15):
a good referral for you?
So I told him a little bitabout who I was looking to serve
, and then I asked him the samequestion and he was in a market
that was basically disappearingbecause he's competing with the
AI engine.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Thank you so much, Sal.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
That is extremely generous and I hope that the
listeners can see the value ofthat, because just listening to
you the breadth of yourexperience across different
industries and in different waysand understanding so many
things that you've got thisability to create connections
between different industries,places you know that many people
(45:53):
just don't have that foresight,you know, i can see that you
look at things very broadly andclearly, and many people and
holistically, exactly So you seethe big picture, and it's a
very rare skill.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
So tapping into your brain, for that is huge.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
And holistically.
Yeah, i keep in mind alwaysthat the drive up window that we
associate with fast foodrestaurants was actually I used
(46:55):
to think it was invented bybanks, but actually there were
laundry, dry cleaning servicesthat got there even before the
banks, so that kind of crosspollination from one industry to
a totally different industry.
I think of some of the clientsthat I have served, i had a guy
come to me for a marketing planonce, for he had two products.
One was a social network forpeople who lived in green
(47:16):
apartment buildings and theother was property management
suite specifically aimed atmanaging green apartment
buildings, and I told him heshould franchise internationally
.
I scared him.
I think he was really onlylooking at his own local market
in Vancouver, canada.
But I said this is somethingyou could really take anywhere.
It's totally replicable whatyou're doing, and he'd never
(47:41):
thought about that.
I had a conference center cometo me.
It happened to be a conferencecenter that, in three or four
incarnations previously, hadbeen really the birthplace of
the safe energy movement in theUnited States.
And for him I said let's makethis hallowed ground, let's
(48:01):
attract the yoga teachers andthe conference leaders for whom
this would be such an honor toset foot on your property where
these events happened, andthat's not something that an AI
engine can do.
I'll share one more example.
(48:23):
This is strictly marketing.
I had an ice cream company askme to do some marketing work for
them.
One of the issues they werehaving is that they had a
manufacturing problem and theycouldn't use the regular
packaging.
So they did these genericpackages and I wrote a label for
them that said like our newlabels, neither do we, and then
explained why they couldn't usethe regular ones And just made
(48:44):
it humorous and it was justright there.
The ideas I'm very blessed thatideas come to me quickly, and
one of the books that I intendto write if I have a retire is
called How to Find Your Next10,000 Articles.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
How to find your next 10,000 ideas, and that's
something that was originallyarticle ideas.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Then I realized I got the idea that I could broaden
it to many other types of ideasAnd I have a recent folder for
that that's decades obsolete andI'd have to really start it
over from scratch.
But the idea of doing that bookis something I've never
forgotten and may do eventually.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
I have probably research folders for 20 books I
might write.
Sometimes A read is looked at.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Okay, all right, 10 under my name and then a couple
that I've ghost written forclients.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Yeah, Thank you for that.
Now, this is six copies of thepodcast.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Obviously, we connected and we had such a
great connection and this is thelater and more current time and
I invited you over the podcastand I'm really keen to know what
it was that attracted you.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Obviously you want to see me again and hang out for
an hour, but and that is ofcourse, also going beyond
sustainabilitycom.
There's a page for the book Andlikewise, which is why I
invited you.
But what does six star mean toyou?
When you hear the term six starbusiness?
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Yes, yeah.
Well, we always think aboutfive tar being five star being
the excellence limit.
So going beyond that it's likedialing the volume knob to 11
(50:56):
instead of where it stops at 10.
So you're going for theephemeral and perhaps fickle
110% that, if you thinkmathematically, isn't possible,
but if you think spiritually andholistically and conceptually,
of course it's possible.
We always can dig in deeper.
(51:18):
It's well known that we onlyuse a tiny fraction of our
brains.
So if you can use a slightlylarger fraction, then you're
exceeding the goals And I thinkthat's good.
You have to do it in a way thathonors your own personhood,
your own health, your own growth, your own need to rest.
And yes, even I do sleep six orseven hours a night And I do
(51:44):
find all the nature walking I dovery recharging and playing
with my grand kid veryrecharging.
I do a lot of things like thefood I eat, which is I have been
oh, my goodness, i've been avegetarian.
This summer will make 50 yearssince I stopped eating, and most
of the food I eat is organicand local as well, and quite a
(52:06):
bit of it has grown either righthere in our garden or three
miles up the road at thecommunity supported agriculture
farm that we're members of, andso we eat really well here.
In fact, lately when I go torestaurants I'm kind of
disappointed, like I eat betterat home And I'm a creative cook,
and one thing I'm not goodabout is documenting that I
(52:30):
can't measure anything and cookit.
It'll never come out.
I just have to throw it in,taste it and change it a little
bit up.
But I have many outlets forcreativity is what I'm trying to
say, and again, it's sort of awell rounded and holistic
approach.
I don't just do one thing.
I had a friend who wrote a bookcalled The Renaissance Soul And
(52:53):
it was for people like me and,i think, you, who would just die
if they could only do one thing.
There are the Mozart's, whothey're born in diapers, they're
writing music and they're stillwriting music when they die,
but there are the Ben Franklin,buckminster, fuller, wild and
Crazy people who want to go in ahundred different directions
(53:14):
and will settle for ten at atime, and it's a fun existence,
i have to say.
But it's challenging because,like the tradition, one of the
reasons that I've developed allmy skills as a marketing heretic
and my advice is so differentfrom other people is I don't fit
the boxes.
If I tried to do things thetraditional way and have my one
(53:37):
product funnel and have my oneindustry, i would be bored, and
I find it hard to be boredAbsolutely, and I love your
holistic approach to everythingwhat you said about the six dot.
You're into that, you know ifyou're doing that work over and
over again the same thing foryears, i don't know about the
spiritual aspect, and thendifferent people.
(53:58):
Why are you doing this?
Speaker 2 (53:59):
Approach and.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
I'm very happy that there are people who are so many
very focused.
I like your answer.
Just it was very interesting.
You know, like I said, you'redifferent.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Everyone's different And I love asking the question
because we always get differentanswers that highlight how you
agree.
Yeah, perfect, that's what Ilove.
I love that.
(54:32):
What do you see as being one ofthe biggest barriers to people
becoming six star?
Speaker 1 (54:46):
Yeah, and I was totally unrehearsed.
I did listen to one of yourpodcasts and I knew on some
subliminal level that questionwas going to be there, but I
didn't give it any of thesequestions Any prethought.
I think we are all of us facinglimiting beliefs that were
(55:15):
thrust upon us as children, andthey're going to be different
for every person.
I have been fairly lucky inthat most of mine seem to
concentrate on either personalenergy which, in spite of as
much as I do, there's a part ofme that would like to beat
myself up for not doing more orabout I recognize that I do have
money barriers.
(55:36):
My way of dealing with that,rather than solving the money
blocks, is to simply createnon-material wealth.
So I, for example, i travelmore than most of my friends who
make 10 times my income, but Iknow how to travel inexpensively
and educationally and well.
(55:57):
One of the things I do is I'm amember of two different home
stay networks.
So often when I'm in a foreigncountry, i'm staying in
somebody's house and living asthey live for a couple of days
and maybe exploring their citywith them, or maybe getting
recommendations on cool things Iwouldn't have known from a
guidebook to seek out or from awebsite.
(56:19):
But I wrote a long, long timeago.
I wrote a book on having funcheaply called the Penny
Pinching Heednest or Headnest,you might say And it was a fun
book to write.
And it was a really fun book toresearch.
And the research startedprobably 10 years before I knew
I was going to write the book,because that's just how I was
living my life.
I had very little money, but Ihad a value of seeing live
(56:42):
entertainment, of going to newplaces, of eating new foods and
trying restaurants.
So I found ways to do that.
It cost little or nothing, andso I am able to maintain a
lifestyle that looks on thesurface like it's out of
proportion for my income, butreally it's perfectly aligned.
It's just that I don't dothings the way other people do
(57:03):
them.
I treat everything as anadventure.
And there it is.
And also I'm lucky not to haveexpensive editions like smoking
or heavy consumption of alcohol,so that helps as well.
So I'm not as frugal as I waswhen I was writing that book in
(57:24):
the 90s, but I recognize that Ihave the luxury now that I don't
have to watch every penny And Istill I still usher concerts,
get to see them for free.
I've seen some very big namesthat way Once in a while.
I still work as press for anevent like that.
I'm attending something calledthe US Book Show.
(57:46):
Virtually I could have gonedown to New York, but it wasn't
a good time for me to go inperson.
But I did one of theirconferences for press a couple
of years ago and they liked whatI did.
A few weeks ago, i got an emailsaying we have already given
you a press conference.
We hope you can show up.
Okay, so different strategieslike that And I have because I'm
(58:12):
a marketer and I hang out withother marketers I know a lot of
people who are millionaires AndI actually think that I have a
happier quality of life thanmany of them, even if not only
do I not have Lamborghini in mydriveway, but I have a 2012
Honda Fit and a bicycle.
(58:34):
And about high status cars havenever been important to me.
A high status house is notimportant to me.
I love where I live.
I'm very privileged to live ina magnificent 260 some odd year
old farmhouse.
Speaker 2 (58:47):
I love that That was built to last Thanks to sharing
all those things.
I love to have this beautifulview in four directions and all
the things that you do, how youpay only a hundred and three
thousand dollars without thehigh income or the high.
Speaker 1 (59:03):
I guess I just found a house that needs to be my
price range.
Very, very interesting.
We should send some money toupgrade.
But far less than to buy ahouse.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
You've been very quiet.
I'm really keen to hear fromyou.
Speaker 3 (59:17):
You rarely see me actually being that quiet and
not asking any question, butthis time I just lean back and
enjoy it, the amazing story wecould just get told.
So I'm fascinated to.
What I found the mostfascinating is your innate
curiosity, literally, which isactually your key component.
(59:40):
Yeah, why you are so easilycome up with solutions to
problems.
Yeah, people are bothered withAnd, as you said, you're multi
specialist.
Yeah, you're unified andconnective people, especially
nowadays Very important, wherepeople remind themselves that
(01:00:02):
being in a community, being partof a community where it's all
about collaboration, nurturingeach other, is so important than
living on their own, beingselfish.
Yeah, not the understanding ofyour selfish.
Selfish in the sense of I wantto go, i want to create a better
world.
Their selfish is really veryself centric And I'm admiring
(01:00:22):
you for your various missionsAnd I encourage everybody just
to listen into this podcast andhopefully also support you.
Yeah, in getting thosemovements to critical mess so we
can be heard voice.
Yeah, out there.
Very important, not the schema.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Yes, Thank you, and I , just while you were talking, i
flashed on something I read acouple months ago, i think it
was in Evolution 2.0 by PerryMarshall.
The idea of collaboration isnot necessarily only a human
(01:01:23):
thing, that other speciescollaborate, both within members
of their own species but alsowith other species.
There are symbioticrelationships that look on the
surface like they might beparasite or predatory, but are
actually collaborative.
Trees are definitely a part ofthat.
Trees and fungi are veryclosely connected And then, of
(01:01:48):
course, different animals getnutrition from the trees and
then return that nutrition tothe soil in the form of poop,
and nature doesn't wasteanything.
And nature, this whole idea ofsurvival of the fittest and
competition cutthroat and allthat is really a human construct
.
And while, okay, i'm a catowner, i see what happens when
(01:02:11):
you put a cat in a field thathas lots of mice.
It's not pretty.
But I also see that the miceare nurturing, probably, an
ecosystem by keeping smallerannoyances in check, and they
are serving purposes that weprobably don't fully understand.
(01:02:32):
And it's just what a miracle itis this planet that we live on.
It's so finely constructed whenyou think that if you brought
up a spider to human size.
Her web is strong enough tostop a moving jet plane.
Think about that.
(01:02:55):
So if you want to build abridge, ask a spider how,
because they know more than wedo.
This whole idea of biomimicryis a wonderful new science of
the last 20, 30 years.
It's looking at how has naturesolved these problems And how
can we model that.
And it comes into all sorts ofcool things, like an adhesive
that was modeled after the waygeckos walk upside down on a
(01:03:17):
ceiling.
Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
And now the conversation has started.
We could talk about this foranother hour.
Honestly, the biomimicry is soexciting to me And it's so
interesting, right?
Yes, but I love what you saidabout the collaboration piece as
well.
And yeah, so true, so true.
(01:03:40):
And, if anything for me, i'malways looking at ways to look
outside of my own little spaceAnd that's, i think, what you've
demonstrated today, shell, howyou do that, and you look
outside of your own pond You'vegot many ponds and you look
holistically at the earth andall of the different systems
(01:04:05):
that operate, to learn thingsand create connections and see
how we can learn from each otherand therefore become better.
Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
Yeah, and it's.
it ripples through, becausewhat I learned about biomimicry
influences the way that I thinkabout individualized, bespoke
approaches for different clients, because that's what biomimicry
is.
You have a system that's goingto work really well in India
where it's dry for 11 months andthen torrential floods for one
(01:04:36):
month.
That system is not going towork in a place that's all
desert or all rain forest.
You need different solutions inthose.
You might even need differentsolutions for different the same
problem on different sides ofthe same tree.
Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
Exactly, i love it.
I love the way your brain worksAnd I really, really love your
energy and your curiosity, soit's brilliant.
Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Thank you, it has been brilliant.
Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So, as we come to a close, doyou have any final tidbits or
little piece of advice for ourlisteners, any nuggets of wisdom
?
Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
I would say look for ways to follow your heart, but
also look for the ways that aregoing to make those things
practical.
So you don't have to give upyour dreams, but you may have to
modify them a little bit to fitsome constraints, at least
temporarily, and over time youmay be able to overcome those
(01:05:41):
constraints.
That's one.
Another would be there are twokinds of change in the world.
There's kaizen, the gradual,step-by-step improvement, and
then there's the great leapforward.
I actually did a newsletter onthis a couple of months ago that
those are two different stylesand neither is wrong and both
(01:06:01):
are situational.
In some situations you're goingto take the little tiny step,
but then, once you've gottenthree, four steps down the road,
you say, oh, now I can take thegreat leap.
I needed those extra eightinches that I didn't have before
to be able to cross this kaizen.
So you're building groundworkfor yourself, and then it may be
another series of gradualevolutions for a while, and then
(01:06:22):
another great leap.
I'm thinking about smartphones,for example.
Have going from flip phones tosmartphones was a great leap,
but it was made possible bylittle incremental changes such
as oh, we can put a reallyterrible internet browser on
this flip phone And thensomebody would get that and say,
well, what, we made it a goodinternet experience.
(01:06:44):
What would that be like?
And now, if you think about it,we, with this little device, we
are carrying the world'sknowledge in our pockets.
It's not all in our pocket, butwe can access it.
We have every library.
It's out there.
(01:07:05):
You can watch news programsfrom other countries.
You can.
Just what a change that is.
And that's only one of many biginnovations.
When you add that in withthings like 3D printing and, yes
, ai is going to change ourworld, is already changing our
world in good ways and not sogood ways.
And some of these other andthis thinking as organisms
(01:07:33):
within a bio region, ascommunities that can communicate
and work together and sharecommon goals if that's
appropriate and then draw apartand do their own thing when
they're not.
You probably didn't expect thislong and complicated answer.
I didn't expect to give it, butI should stop there.
Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Oh, shell, thank you so much.
Wow, there's a lot there.
Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
We can always do chapter two of this podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
I've been a repeat podcast guest for a few programs
.
I like to do at least sixmonths in between, but it's
amazing.
I feel this call has reallybeen energizing and we've gone
into areas that I don't normallytalk about.
There's no such thing as astandard podcast for me, but
(01:08:28):
there's a general framework theyusually follow and this one is
mostly out of that box Andthat's fun for me And I like
hearing myself going to newplaces And I think you and I
have just right.
We had it when we were talkingwithout the camera.
We had just have a really goodget in.
I think we really connect onsome cellular level.
(01:08:51):
That's different.
Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
I agree, agree, totally.
Yeah, i love it And I'd love tohave you back at some stage,
shell.
I know there's some morespecific topics I think we could
go into.
That would really be beneficialfor all our listeners.
So, but today, thank you somuch, it has been an absolute
honor and privilege, and thankyou for the gifts that you
(01:09:16):
offered our listeners.
Again, the links will be in theshow notes below here that
Shell has given us.
And, yeah, is there any finalcomments that you'd like to make
, shell?
Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
Yeah, just like what you heard today.
You'll find tons of resourcesat goingbeyondsustainabilitycom,
including that freebies pagewith the 10 success and
profitability secrets and thehalf an hour consultation and
all the rest of it And just keeplearning, keep doing.
You need both.
You need to absorb and I amsomebody who loves to absorb
(01:09:52):
knowledge but you also need toact.
Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Yeah, absolutely, perfectly, perfectly finished.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
Thank you.
Again.
that world I was born into wasa racist, sexist, polluted place
that we've made enormousstrides to get out from under
some of those burdens And I liketo think that my work
contributed in some small andsome not so small ways to do
that.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hello, i'm your host, aveline Clark, and this is the
Six Star Business Podcast, wherewe have conversations with
amazing, incredible people, allabout what it takes to be Six
Star going beyond the status quo, doing things differently, and
how they bring purpose, love andimpact into their businesses
every day.
I love this episode, michelle.
(00:40):
He's just such a passionatelover of the earth, lover of
people, business and bringingthem all together in this nice
intersection of peace, harmony,collaboration, and that's what
he lives and breathes, that'show he operates, it's what
drives all the things he does.
(01:01):
When I asked him afterwards,what do you think your genius is
?
What is it that you do the best?
He said I help people findtheir sweet spot where
profitability meetsenvironmental and social good,
and that is exactly who he is.
It's a great conversation.
He's got a lot of interestinganecdotes, stories, a
(01:22):
perspective that I've not heardyet on this podcast, and Coray,
my co-host tonight, had a greattime talking with him.
So enjoy this one with ShellHorowitz.
Hello, here we are.
It's another episode of SixStar Business Podcast.
I'm so excited about this today.
First of all, welcome myco-host, coray.
(01:45):
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I'm fabulous and I'm looking forward to our new guest
And the amazing story he'sgoing to tell us.
So welcome Shell.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Thank you, welcome, shell.
So nice to have you here.
We're in a cross-continentconversation today, and this is
why I love technology, andnormally Coray's in Germany, but
he's in Australia at the moment, so we've got two continents
represented And, yeah, let's getinto this.
(02:17):
I'm going to start off byasking you just a few questions
so that we can get to know youbetter.
And first of all, can you tellus where you are in the world?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I am in Hadley, massachusetts, united States,
which is two hours from Boston,three and a half from New York
and long, long, many hours fromyou.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Thank you, so good to have you here.
I thoroughly enjoyed meetingyou for the first time recently,
and I knew that having you onthe podcast was going to be even
just more delightful, so thanksfor coming along.
I would love to know from youwho do you serve and how do you
(03:04):
serve them?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I look for the places where an organization can
profit by developing productsand services that hit the sweet
spot that incorporates bothprofitability and environmental
and social good And that maysound a little vague in general.
so I'll give you examples ofcompanies that are doing this.
(03:27):
For example, there's a numberof companies, one in particular
called D-Lite, d-period,l-i-g-h-t, that produce
solar-powered LED lamps and theysell them into places where
either there's been no lamp orthere's been kerosene, which is
toxic, flammable, dangerous,smelly, expensive and, of course
(03:49):
, a fossil fuel with a bigcarbon footprint.
So they sell these lamps on atime payment basis.
so if they were, the customerwas paying, say, $2 a month for
kerosene before they pay $2 amonth to the lamp and then they
can, 10 or 20 months later theyown the lamp.
And this is working on so manylevels because it's getting rid
(04:10):
of the nasty kerosene, it'sgetting rid of the fire hazard,
the fumes, it's providing betterquality light.
so maybe this family can starta sideline cottage industry or
the kids could get better gradesin school and go on to better
careers, jobs, of course for thepeople who sell and service the
units and, of course, a profitfor the company.
(04:31):
So that's kind of the model thatI try to emulate in my
consulting, but it's differentfor every single business or
organization that comes throughme, because it's not something
that you can just scale it out,cookie cutter.
It's going to be very much anindividual thing, tailored to
the strengths of that particularbusiness and the people who are
in it, as well as theircustomer networks, their
(04:52):
supplier networks and all therest of it.
So it's very exciting And I'veput a ton of information about
this on my website,goingbeyondsustainabilitycom,
and also in my 10th book,guerrilla Marketing to Heal the
World, which I co-authored withJay Conrad Levinson, who did the
(05:13):
first hundred or so Guerrillamarketing books.
And it's just every day isfresh and interesting and
exciting.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Wow, i listened to that and I'm just really in awe
and excited to hear what you'redoing for the world, for people,
and finding efficiencies.
But you're also innovatingbecause, like you said, your
approach is not cookie cutter.
It's not like you've got thistemplate that you then sell into
(05:45):
every company.
It's very unique to thatbusiness and also the market
they serve, and you're lookingfor solutions that actually
solve real problems and helppeople.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, things like hunger and poverty, racism,
climate change, war, littlethings like that, just the small
things.
And obviously no one company isgoing to solve all those things
with one product or service,but they'll chip away at it and
eventually you reach a criticalmass and society changes.
I think we're approaching thatpoint in a number of areas and
(06:18):
it's a very exciting time to bedoing this work.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
How long have you been doing this Well?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
I started my business , oh my goodness, 42 years ago,
but it didn't look anything likewhat it looks like now And it
evolved many times, and I'd saythis evolution really started in
2000.
In 1999, a developer announcedthat he was going to build 40
big luxury homes on the mountainnext to the state park behind
(06:48):
my house, which those of youlisteners who are on video I
would know it That is the statepark, that mountain there, and
then the next mountain over waswhere that housing project was
going to be, and I was the onewho said no, i don't think
you're going to do that.
So I started this movement tosave that mountain And I thought
(07:08):
if we were enough of a pain inthe developer's project for a
long enough time that maybeafter about five years he would
go away.
Well, it only took 13 months.
We won a near total victory ina very short time, just over a
year.
And that campaign.
(07:29):
I have been both an organizerand a marketer for more than 50
years at this point and I'm only66.
So I started kind ofridiculously young And I was
kind of looking at what we haddone and what we had done right
and what we could have donebetter after that campaign was
over And I realized that I hadbrought in pretty much
(07:50):
everything I knew from themarketing world to win this
organizing campaign.
So then I started thinking whatcan I bring from the organizing
world, the social justice,environmental justice world,
into the business community?
So we won in very late 2000.
And by 2002, i was reallyincorporating this into my
speeches.
By 2003, i had the first offour books I've done on this
(08:14):
intersection of doing the rightthing with being a successful
business.
And it's just grown since then.
My thinking continues to evolveAnd I find that the world is
just again.
I know I used the word excitingalready, but it's really
fascinating How fast progress ishappening and yet there's this
(08:38):
other strand of how other forcesare trying to pull things in
the wrong direction.
So we now have the addedcomponent of trying to not only
do the right thing but putenough roadblocks in the people
who are trying to completelydestroy the earth we live on in
the service of short-term greedto show them a better way.
(08:58):
And one of the things I thinkthat really sets me apart from a
lot of people in theenvironmental business world is
that I look at business as anally.
I see that if you show businessthat this is actually a
successful formula, then youhave them on your side.
And we see lots and lots of bigcompanies are now understanding
this, and that was not truewhen I started this work.
(09:19):
But a few years ago I went tosomething called the Responsible
Business Summit and thespeakers were from companies
like Coca-Cola, danone, generalMotors.
I mean companies that 40 yearsago you would have never thought
are socially conscious.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Before we get into this, i'd love to ask Shell what
do you like doing when you'renot busy serving people?
Something you like to dooutside of this very important,
colorful work?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Well, outside is a big part of it.
I try to get out to our timeevery day.
I try to get two hours ofexercise a day and I like at
least one hour of that to beoutside.
I have that beautiful mountainthat you saw and I get to hike
on it, and we have lots of othergood hiking here.
I have a bicycle that I use.
I actually like to do free-formrock and roll dancing.
(10:11):
I am an addicted reader.
Most years I have read about 80books.
Since I started keeping track,last year it was only 60,
because I started doing cardioclasses every other day with my
wife and during the time that Ihad been reading on my exercise
bike.
(10:32):
I'm a person of many interests.
I love going to live music.
I love traveling to exoticplaces.
I have been to close to 50countries and all 50 US states
And I go there not just, oh, yousee the sights and drink the
beers, but I really look at howcan that experience serve the
people that I serve?
Also, like I went to Icelandand I came back writing about
(10:55):
how this country has basicallygone completely renewable for
anything that's not a vehicle,and this was back in 2011.
By now, they've probably doneit for a fair amount of their
vehicle fleet too.
I went to Israel and Palestineand came back talking about the
groups that were working forpeace in that troubled land.
So I'm always learning.
(11:18):
I'm very excited I'm going toJapan for a family wedding in
August And I've never been, andI'm sure that will be very
exciting and very growthful.
Be interesting to see, for onething, how the legendary bullet
train actually works And alsohow you deal with the incredible
(11:40):
crowd conditions, which I'vebeen to India and China, which
are both pretty crowded places,but in Japan there is this
filter of decorum on top of itthat is not necessarily present
in the other really crowdedplaces I've been, so I'm going
to be very curious to see whatthat's like.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
That's exciting.
I love your quest for adventureAnd you sound busier than most
people, many years your junior.
My life is too short to sayIt's true.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I didn't mention my grandson, who is a joy in my
life.
I spend a lot of time, usuallyabout three afternoons a week,
with him, and my wife and Iusually get together so we can't
get too tired because we'rethere to spell each other And
he's a bundle of energy and justwicked, responsive and smart,
and it's been such a treasure towatch him grow these last few
(12:42):
months.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Lovely, they're so precious, they're the moments,
right, the important things.
You've already shared so muchthat our listeners would be
going, wow, like you're creatingopportunities, you're a force
for good, you're finding ways toconnect profitability and
(13:04):
business into the world, theworld's frontline issues and
problems.
Really, i just I'd love to gointo this further Now.
I asked you, helen, you've beendoing it.
You shared a little bit aboutthe mountain, that story about
how you help save the mountainfrom the developer.
What's been, if there is therebeen some pivotal sort of
(13:28):
moments along your journeythat's brought you to where you
are today?
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, there were quite a few.
I'll share a couple of them.
The first one was all the wayback in 1969 when I was 12 years
old and I went to my firstdemonstration about the Vietnam
War.
And I was sitting therelistening to the speeches and
one of the speakers said theVietnam War is an undeclared war
.
And I had not known that and Ihad been the good little student
(13:58):
studying my social studies andlearning about the three
branches of American governmentand the checks and balances and
how everything was designed tomake sure that autocracy didn't
happen, and that all camecrashing down in that one
comment.
So then I started questioningabsolutely everything and
(14:18):
flirting with variousalternatives to the system we
had and learning more about.
Even back then it was prettyclear to me that these movements
were all related.
You hear these days a lot aboutthe synergies between climate
justice and racial and economicjustice and social justice, but
I guess I saw those connectionspretty early on.
(14:39):
I had a very working classfriend and old communist from
the 1940s who used to take us toa lot of demonstrations, me and
her three kids and one otherkid in the neighborhood and
listening to her I learned a lotabout what it was like for
working people.
I was raised socially middleclass and economically lower
(15:00):
class, which is an interestingdynamic A house full of books,
always going to museums, but themuseums were ones that didn't
charge admission concerts.
So having the middle classcultural aspects but also
growing up in a family thatreally didn't have extra money.
So, and then Adele was somebodywho never had any money, never
(15:24):
had the pretense of money, butshe had really solid connections
in the labor movement, in someof the non-mainstream political
parties, And she also found timefor art in her life.
She sang in Pete Seeker'sChorus.
She was the one who introducedme to Melvina Reynolds and Led
Belly's music.
It was very exciting to haveher as a mentor very early.
(15:47):
So I didn't start going todemonstrations with her until
after that day when I heard thatspeaker.
But then I became friends,first with her daughter, who was
my age, and then with her, Andthat was a major influence.
I'll skip forward a couple ofyears.
In college I did a researchpaper on the pros and cons of
(16:08):
nuclear power And I discoveredvery, very quickly that there
aren't any pros and that thecons were far more serious than
I thought.
So I got into the safe energymovement and got arrested at a
nuclear power plant constructionsite in 1977.
And it turned out that thataction was way more significant
(16:29):
than we knew at the time.
We 1,414 of us were arrested,which is a pretty large number,
especially for a state like NewHampshire, which is a very small
rural state.
They didn't actually have roomfor 1,400 people in their jail
system, So they put us inNational Guard Armories and had
these 17 year old National Guardkids guarding us And we had
(16:51):
dialogues with them.
We had a little university inthere.
People who knew more than otherpeople in the room about
something would share it And itwas just this amazing learning
community.
And we came out and lo andbehold, all over the US,
movements very similar to theClamshell Alliance, which was
the group that I was in, hadsprung up in every part of the
(17:15):
country the Sunflower Allianceand the Abalone Alliance.
They were all using the samenonviolent group processes that
we were using, involvingconsensus.
They were all very similaranalyses about why nuclear power
didn't work and what we can doinstead, which was solar, wind,
hydro, etc.
So by doing this action, wecreated a national movement, And
(17:39):
that's not all.
Because of that nationalmovement, I am convinced, is the
reason why, when Three MileIsland happened, two years later
we heard about it, Whereas wehad not heard about Browns Ferry
in Alabama in 1975 and RicoFermi in Michigan in 1966 and
some other really seriousnuclear accidents that had
happened before this movement.
(18:00):
And because of Three MileIsland and the movie The China
Syndrome which was alsoinfluenced by us, I think, and
these groups sprouting up allover the country, that dream of
stuffing nuclear power downeverybody's throats all around
the country didn't happen.
They topped off in the UnitedStates in 104.
Richard Nixon, who waspresident in the 1960s and 70s.
(18:21):
He said we needed to have athousand.
So that was a real thing thatwe did is we stopped that
movement one tenth of the waybefore that goal.
So let's see.
Oh, I guess going off tocollege and getting involved
with the LGBT and women'scommunities.
(18:42):
There was an important step inmy own personal understanding of
different kinds of oppressionGoing to live in a social change
community for nine months Andthen coming up here and learning
how to function in a rural,traditional New England culture
after growing up in New YorkCity and going to school in a
(19:05):
radicals campus in Ohio.
So all of those prepped me forbeing able to step into that
moment when this developerannounced that plan and
organized this brand newmovement And then from there it
just kept kept growing It's.
I am one of those people whothinks I will continue growing
(19:28):
and learning until I can't openmy eyes, can't breathe and I'm
underground.
Basically, I am never going tobe one of those people who said
I'm done.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I can tell that about you.
It must feel really rewardingto see the journey like in
hindsight and look at thosepivotal moments and see how
you've created some impact inothers and the ripple effect of
that.
It must just fuel you in someway, Oh absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yes, yes, i get totally juiced when I'm talking,
giving a speech, and I can seepeople kind of like you can see
the wheels turning and thenthinking, oh, i never thought of
it that way before.
And yes, this possibility forchange One of the things that I
do.
It's not in my TED Talk, iadded it later, but my keynote
(20:29):
speech is usually calledimpossible as a dare and it's
based on this wonderful quotefrom, of all people, muhammad
Ali Impossible is just a bigword thrown around by small men
who find it easier to live inthe world they've been given
than to explore the possibility.
They have to change it.
(20:49):
Sorry, the power.
They have to change it.
My eyes just played a trick onme.
Impossible is not a fact, it'san opinion.
Impossible is not a declaration, it's a dare.
Impossible is potential.
Impossible is temporary,impossible is nothing.
I love that.
Yeah, that anchored my TED Talkand many of the speeches I've
(21:15):
done since.
And again, reading I would loveto see every world leader
having a copy of this book andhaving a copy of Paul Pullman's
book, net Positive and PaulPollock's book on business
solution to poverty, and there'sa reading list I would love to
give every president and worldleader in this world.
(21:36):
And not all of them are booksI've written, but some of them
are.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Are you first and foremost an activist for change
and a marketer second, or do yousee them as intertwined?
Speaker 1 (21:54):
They're completely intertwined, it's like braided
hair.
Everything I've ever done insocial change has included my
marketing skills and everythingI've ever done in marketing has
included at least my socialchange analysis And the things
like looking beyond silos,looking for the intersections.
(22:15):
That all comes from the socialchange side, looking at the
power of ordinary people, andthis is something a lot of
business owners maybe.
They start their business witha great idea but they don't
necessarily have the skills tocarry it out.
And I talk about people like aseamstress named Rosa Parks, who
was the quintessential fulcrumpoint for the civil rights
(22:40):
movement at one time, and shewas, incidentally, that was not
a random act, she was a trainedactivist and most people don't
know that, but she, yeah, shesees the moment.
And then a bunch of people,including Martin Luther King,
spent a year supporting thatmovement, and so that was one
(23:02):
kind of ordinary person.
And going to Coray's continent,we have the example of a
shipyard electrician in Poland,right next to his country of
Germany, named Lekwalesa, whostarted the solidarity movement
or was one of its leaders andbecame Poland's president
eventually.
So you know if a shipyardelectrician and a seamstress can
(23:27):
make earth-shattering changes.
Or in Avelines' hemisphere,there's the South African
example of Nelson Mandela, whowould have thought that somebody
serving a life sentence for hewasn't a terrorist, but that was
basically what he was convictedof would become a superhero,
(23:50):
and who would have thought thatthe ordinary people of Ireland
and Northern Ireland could makea peace.
That's as somebody who's beeninvolved in Israel-Palestine
stuff for a long time.
I keep focusing on those twoexamples of South Africa and
Ireland because it's I need tohave hope that it's possible,
(24:11):
and it looks very bad,especially with the new Israeli
government.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
There's a lot there.
So you've spent your life inservice to the world and the
problems that you see in theworld and constantly living,
like you say, in hope thatchange is possible, and there's.
I believe change is possiblebecause we see it, i mean by
(24:40):
virtue of this organism, of theplanet and life we're always
changing It's about.
I think, how can this changehappen for good, rather than
separate and just be just changein a destructive way rather
than a positive, constructiveway?
And I see you as a mechanismfor assisting that constructive,
(25:03):
positive change, which isreally exciting, challenging,
but yeah, like you said, whycan't there be more Nelson
Mandela's and Rosa Parks and thepresident of Pakistan?
sorry, poland, poland, and whynot shell?
(25:23):
I mean, the most powerful peopleI believe are those typically
behind the scenes, the smallerperson that's actually doing a
lot of this work and organizingthings, and sometimes they're
the ones that matter the most.
So the work you're doing isreally important And I just want
to honor you for that and saythank you, thank you for being
(25:45):
you and being courageous andbrave.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
It's really, really validating to have that said,
and so thank you, And it's alsoI really do believe that each of
us has the power to be a changeagent and that none of us can
do it all.
So we have to work togetherwith others and we have to pick
our movements and our battles,but it's totally possible.
I mean the enormous amount ofchange in my little tiny
(26:14):
lifetime a speck in geologictime, huge pain when the things
like the culture of sexism thatI was born into, the culture of
racism those are things that arenot okay anymore in most parts
(26:34):
of society.
There are the extremists, ofcourse, and they're very loud
and obnoxious and they do thingslike try to overrun the capital
of the United States but or toelect horrible governors in some
states that are really tryingto be little dictators.
But they are the minority.
Most people want to live a goodlife and to live in harmony
(26:57):
with the other people aroundthem and with the planet that
they're on.
And in one of my other talks, inmaking green sexy, i talk about
different kinds of markets forgreen products and services, and
it might be worth sharing thatlittle bit here, because you
have the one extreme, you havethe super committed, the deep
(27:20):
greens, people like me who liveand breathe this stuff, who will
make all of their consumerchoices based on how good is
this for the planet and for thedifferent groups of people and
other creatures involved.
And then you have what I callthe lazy greens people like my
mother-in-law, who buys therecycled toilet paper brand
(27:42):
because she is in thesupermarket and it is stocked on
the shelves next to the VirginForest brands, so she will not
go out of her way to make animpact, but if the impact is
right there as a simple choice,she'll take it.
And then you have thenon-greens, who have to be
convinced of the value of whatyou're offering.
And then, even more, you havethe anti-greens, the hostels,
(28:06):
and you can sell green productsand services to the hostile ones
.
You just have to do it based onwhat's in it for them.
So I'm not saying that thiscompany is hostile to green.
They're actually veryproactively green.
But what is the retailer thatprobably has the reputation,
(28:28):
more than any other retailer,for being all about the bottom
line, for being all aboutprofitability?
Here in the US, it's Walmart.
And if ever there was not atree hugger company, it's
Walmart.
And yet in all my years ofconsulting and speaking and
writing on these issues, i willnever do one hundredth of what
(28:50):
Walmart has done to green'ssupply chain.
Because basically they toldtheir suppliers if you want to
sell in our shelves, you got toclean up your act.
And they had very, totallyselfish reasons for it.
They are actually.
We have a huge supermarket chainthat's all natural foods,
called Whole Foods in the UnitedStates And Walmart sells more
(29:12):
organic food than Whole Foodsand they sell it to working
class people who don't go toWhole Foods.
So they basically doubled themarket.
They sell I don't know how manyhundreds of thousands of low
watt LED light bulbs, low flushtoilets, and they're doing it to
(29:32):
make money.
And they've also slashed theirown energy costs to redesigning
their trucks, their buildingsand everything else to really
take advantage of designing withthe earth as opposed to opposed
to it.
And if Walmart can do it, thenthe hippie companies like
Patagonia and Ben and Jerry'shave it easy, because their
(29:54):
market is right there, in lineas the deep green market.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
And, of course, walmart, like you say.
I mean they're one of thelargest retailers And in
Australia we have, i guess we'vegot Target Paymart.
They're kind of similar to theWalmart.
I mean, yeah, we've got Costcobut there's only a few Costco
stores in Australia But it'sreally that Target kind of big W
(30:24):
brand And I can see, justlistening to what you're saying,
how I say easy but influentialit is for a company like Walmart
to make that little switch andthen impact a massive supply
chain and the customers And youknow so many other people.
(30:45):
The ripple effect is hugebecause of the reach that they
have.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
And you mentioned Costco.
That's actually a company thatI love to talk about.
also.
Their previous CEO in about 20years ago, man named Jim Senegal
, was quite a visionary.
Among other things, he took asalary that is, by you know,
large corporation standards.
He was working for free.
(31:10):
He was making like somethinglike $300,000 a year And he was
paying his workers at a timewhen Walmart and Sam's Club were
paying like $8 an hour US.
He was paying 17.
And he was.
if you've ever been in a Costco, you know people are going
(31:31):
there to shop.
I mean, it is crowded And theirprices are low and their
quality is pretty good And theyhad all these social innovations
.
at the time, A lot of companies, a lot of really old companies,
started as social impactcompanies.
Oddly enough, the chocolateindustry is full of them Cadbury
(31:52):
and the whole BritishCommonwealth, Hershey over here
in America.
those were started as socialimpact companies.
They did amazing things fortheir workers in the 1850s,
1860s.
Somewhere along the way theylost their way And now I
actually eat quite a bit ofchocolate and all the chocolate
I buy is fair trade and organic,And that puts Hershey's out of
(32:16):
the question, And I thinkCadbury has a few that qualify,
but their stuff is too sweet forme.
anyway.
I like really dark chocolate,So I buy brands like Theo and
Equal Exchange.
I'm getting my bars ofsomewhere between 70 and 100%.
(32:37):
But these are things we, asindividual consumers.
we can choose not to buy fromthe companies that are
exploiting others.
We can choose not to buy fromthe companies that are not doing
right by the earth.
And you think you don't haveany impact.
but if you and your 10,000 bestfriends on Facebook all decide
to do something at the same time, you have more impact than you
(32:59):
think of.
And, speaking of Facebook, Ishould mention that I have a
gratitude practice.
that's public and I have donefor more than 1500 days.
I have chronicled on Facebookwhat I'm grateful for that day.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
And that really amazes me, shell, because of how
busy you are and what you dothat you have the time to sit
down and write this dailygratitude piece and publish on
Facebook.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I make the time I probably average an hour a day
on it And, interestingly enough,it's built in my community on
Facebook.
I have all these people payingattention to that who never paid
anything else and he attentionto any of the other things I did
, but it's been a healingprocess for me.
It forces me to go around myday looking for things to be
(33:48):
grateful for and then takingenough photos that I remember
them, and this interview will bein tonight's, which may not get
posted till tomorrow morning,because some of the things I
need to get done today, but Ithink today is something like
day 1500 and 30.
I started in March 2018.
(34:09):
And also, writing is a skillthat comes easily to me and is
how I've made a big chunk of myliving for many, many decades,
and having that.
So for me to write a gratitudejournal is not as daunting,
maybe, as for someone else who'snot a writer to do that.
(34:32):
I've written 10 books andthousands of articles and
probably a couple thousand poems, and writing is just one of the
things that I do, and I do.
You know I look for joy in mylife and the gratitude journal
helps me to find that, and but Ialways did, even before I
started doing that And I lookfor ways to make other people's
(34:53):
lives joyful.
I'm always introducing people toother people I think they
should know, or sending a clipinto social media like, oh, look
what this cool project is doingon the other side of the world,
and then doing writingmaterials that will actually
help people.
So, for example, because youwere listening to this call
(35:14):
today, if you go to Going BeyondSustainable, that try that
again.
Going Beyond Sustainabilitythere we go Dot com, slash
freebies.
You'll see a whole bunch ofgifts, and the one that I want
to highlight tonight is called10 success and profitability
secrets for businesses lookingto do social and environmental
(35:35):
good, and it's both a real quickcheat sheet of the 10 points
and then a few pages of goinginto some detail about them, but
the whole thing's only, i think, six pages and it's an easy
read.
And you get that along with thesubscription to my newsletter
that I've been publishing.
Oh, my goodness, i startedpublishing my first easy in 1996
(35:57):
, 97, somewhere around there along time ago.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
You're a writer.
you're experienced.
That's very clear.
Thank you for sharing that URLwith your freebies, by the way,
and we'll have that in the notesso people can go there and grab
your or your freebies and yourgifts.
Thank you, they sound awesome.
I just want to touch on the joyand the gratitude, and so this
is such a simple thing.
(36:24):
But as you were talking, itbecame really clear that
everything that you're doingit's not for your benefit, right
, right back from when you wentto that first protest.
the whole reason that you wantto see change in the world is to
create more joy.
Would that be right?
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Partially right To create more joy, but also
because I'm selfish, because Iwant a better world and the way
I see myself as getting to abetter world is to helping to
create it.
Yeah, So I will not.
I will not actually accept thecondition that you put on it
that I'm doing this asself-sacrifice, because it's not
a sacrifice.
It's work that I find greatfulfillment in and that I have
(37:03):
been privileged to be in somemovements where we actually won,
which is not a privilege thatevery activist gets to have.
I've been in plenty that didn'twin, But what I do feel is
winning is the overall tide.
Again, that world I was borninto was a racist, sexist,
(37:53):
polluted place that we've madeenormous strides to get out from
under some of those burdens AndI like to think that my work
contributed in some small andsome not so small ways to do
that.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
And I have on the activist side there are really
three places I'm putting energyright now.
One is immigration justice inthe West which is still a
nightmare you've just said.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
The second is local electoral politics in my tiny
little community of 5,000.
And we have twice taken overthe governing body of the town
with people who are aligned withthese ideas of change.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And then the third one is back to what I was doing
in the 1970s unsafe energy.
He's taking notes and he'sgoing to come out with something
soon.
Of those three passions, shell,which one?
of you folks is right now, i'mnot wired that way.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
I am taking some of your energy and attention.
I don't call myself ageneralist.
I call myself a multispecialist.
Well, today I was.
(39:27):
We just had our first in personmeeting after three years of
only doing Zoom for ourimmigration justice group, which
is called Jewish activists forimmigration justice of Western
Massachusetts, and out of thatmeeting we decided to revisit
the mission statement that wewrote in 2019.
And my wife actually just madea pass at summarizing all the
(39:51):
things that came out of thatmeeting that we wanted to put in
, and then I went through it anddid an edit of that.
So that's what I did about twohours before we had this call.
And but you know, i really kindof juggle them all because
later in the week I have ameeting the clamshell alliance
website committee that I'm onwhich is bringing back a website
(40:13):
that went dead when ourwebmaster died and took the
passwords to the grave.
So we lost that domain and weput up a new domain and we put
up new content.
And there's this wonderfulstatement that we've
collaborated on about whynuclear power still makes
absolutely no sense and what thealternatives are, and another
piece of it about the history ofthe organization and the
(40:34):
process innovations that wecreated, which I would say
Speaker 2 (40:38):
influenced heavily, like occupying a little bit and
standing rock movement.
Because I'm thinking about thelist.
So it's nice to see that ourmost of our list is still
relevant and is stillinfluencing people?
Maybe medium-sized businessowners.
they're entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
And this week.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
I don't have to do anything about this, thinking
about we had our election.
What can they take from this,or what can they, what can you
advise them or give them as away for them to even think about
this, like what's in it forthem, if they haven't already
thought about it?
How can they take that firststep to becoming more conscious
(41:15):
or open and aware about this?
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Okay, i love that question and it's going to take
a few minutes to give it its due.
So, for starters, you want tolook at the low hanging fruit.
Where are the places wheredoing the right thing will
actually cut your expenses,increase your profits?
That's usually there's a lot ofthat to find, and then if you
want to go to the deeper stuff,then you can start funding out
(42:12):
of the savings you've alreadycreated.
So that's one thing.
Another is to look at thebenefits.
The world is demanding this.
Companies that are notaddressing these issues are
going to be left behind, becauseif people have a choice between
something that is the samequality and the same price,
something that's going to make adifference in the world or is
(42:36):
going to continue the dangerousstatus quo, they're going to go
with the one that makes thepositive difference, and you see
this in something even ascommodified as ice cream.
If you're in the super premiumaisle of the supermarket and you
can choose a brand that youknow is doing good things with
its money, like Ben and Jerry's,or one that is part of a big,
(43:01):
nasty conglomerate that is knownfor abusing its workers and
polluting the area where itsplants are and passing a far
greater percentage to highexecutives and far lower
percentage to the workers.
Where are you going to put yoursix bucks for that pint of ice
(43:21):
cream?
You see this in how Toyota gotin early with the Prius and, lo
and behold, this funky lookingcar with an electric motor
became a status symbol, and allthese wealthy people were buying
Priyai, and so there are a lotof advantages there.
(43:45):
The other thing is, i normallygive 15 minutes of free
consultation to anybody who asks, but for Aveline's tribe I'll
make it 30.
And that's enough to go prettydeep.
I mean, we've been on this callfor not much more than that,
and we've covered a lot ofground, and so you can go to I'm
(44:06):
sure that Aveline will put thelink to my scheduler in the show
page And so just mention thatyou were on this call and you
get a half an hour of my timefor free and we can look at what
you have done in your businessso far.
Where are the strengths?
where are the adaptabilities?
(44:27):
where can this thing you'vedone with one goal or one
process be twisted inside out tocome out a little differently?
Maybe it's a different audienceor market, or maybe it's an
extra step in the process, ormaybe it's a new product
entirely that you didn't thinkabout, but that is really well
within your wheelhouse And again, it's bespoke.
It's going to be different forevery single one, and to me that
(44:50):
makes it fun, because I've gotenough ADHD that I don't want to
do the same thing over and overand over.
But for the companies it'sgreat, because they get my brain
for a half an hour and then, ifthey want to go deeper, my
rates are quite affordable.
And just today I was on a getto know you call, like the one
that you and I had some weeksback, and he asked me oh, what's
(45:15):
a good referral for you?
So I told him a little bitabout who I was looking to serve
, and then I asked him the samequestion and he was in a market
that was basically disappearingbecause he's competing with the
AI engine.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Thank you so much, Sal.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
That is extremely generous and I hope that the
listeners can see the value ofthat, because just listening to
you the breadth of yourexperience across different
industries and in different waysand understanding so many
things that you've got thisability to create connections
between different industries,places you know that many people
(45:53):
just don't have that foresight,you know, i can see that you
look at things very broadly andclearly, and many people and
holistically, exactly So you seethe big picture, and it's a
very rare skill.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
So tapping into your brain, for that is huge.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
And holistically.
Yeah, i keep in mind alwaysthat the drive up window that we
associate with fast foodrestaurants was actually I used
(46:55):
to think it was invented bybanks, but actually there were
laundry, dry cleaning servicesthat got there even before the
banks, so that kind of crosspollination from one industry to
a totally different industry.
I think of some of the clientsthat I have served, i had a guy
come to me for a marketing planonce, for he had two products.
One was a social network forpeople who lived in green
(47:16):
apartment buildings and theother was property management
suite specifically aimed atmanaging green apartment
buildings, and I told him heshould franchise internationally
.
I scared him.
I think he was really onlylooking at his own local market
in Vancouver, canada.
But I said this is somethingyou could really take anywhere.
It's totally replicable whatyou're doing, and he'd never
(47:41):
thought about that.
I had a conference center cometo me.
It happened to be a conferencecenter that, in three or four
incarnations previously, hadbeen really the birthplace of
the safe energy movement in theUnited States.
And for him I said let's makethis hallowed ground, let's
(48:01):
attract the yoga teachers andthe conference leaders for whom
this would be such an honor toset foot on your property where
these events happened, andthat's not something that an AI
engine can do.
I'll share one more example.
(48:23):
This is strictly marketing.
I had an ice cream company askme to do some marketing work for
them.
One of the issues they werehaving is that they had a
manufacturing problem and theycouldn't use the regular
packaging.
So they did these genericpackages and I wrote a label for
them that said like our newlabels, neither do we, and then
explained why they couldn't usethe regular ones And just made
(48:44):
it humorous and it was justright there.
The ideas I'm very blessed thatideas come to me quickly, and
one of the books that I intendto write if I have a retire is
called How to Find Your Next10,000 Articles.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
How to find your next 10,000 ideas, and that's
something that was originallyarticle ideas.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Then I realized I got the idea that I could broaden
it to many other types of ideasAnd I have a recent folder for
that that's decades obsolete andI'd have to really start it
over from scratch.
But the idea of doing that bookis something I've never
forgotten and may do eventually.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
I have probably research folders for 20 books I
might write.
Sometimes A read is looked at.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Okay, all right, 10 under my name and then a couple
that I've ghost written forclients.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Yeah, Thank you for that.
Now, this is six copies of thepodcast.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Obviously, we connected and we had such a
great connection and this is thelater and more current time and
I invited you over the podcastand I'm really keen to know what
it was that attracted you.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Obviously you want to see me again and hang out for
an hour, but and that is ofcourse, also going beyond
sustainabilitycom.
There's a page for the book Andlikewise, which is why I
invited you.
But what does six star mean toyou?
When you hear the term six starbusiness?
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Yes, yeah.
Well, we always think aboutfive tar being five star being
the excellence limit.
So going beyond that it's likedialing the volume knob to 11
(50:56):
instead of where it stops at 10.
So you're going for theephemeral and perhaps fickle
110% that, if you thinkmathematically, isn't possible,
but if you think spiritually andholistically and conceptually,
of course it's possible.
We always can dig in deeper.
(51:18):
It's well known that we onlyuse a tiny fraction of our
brains.
So if you can use a slightlylarger fraction, then you're
exceeding the goals And I thinkthat's good.
You have to do it in a way thathonors your own personhood,
your own health, your own growth, your own need to rest.
And yes, even I do sleep six orseven hours a night And I do
(51:44):
find all the nature walking I dovery recharging and playing
with my grand kid veryrecharging.
I do a lot of things like thefood I eat, which is I have been
oh, my goodness, i've been avegetarian.
This summer will make 50 yearssince I stopped eating, and most
of the food I eat is organicand local as well, and quite a
(52:06):
bit of it has grown either righthere in our garden or three
miles up the road at thecommunity supported agriculture
farm that we're members of, andso we eat really well here.
In fact, lately when I go torestaurants I'm kind of
disappointed, like I eat betterat home And I'm a creative cook,
and one thing I'm not goodabout is documenting that I
(52:30):
can't measure anything and cookit.
It'll never come out.
I just have to throw it in,taste it and change it a little
bit up.
But I have many outlets forcreativity is what I'm trying to
say, and again, it's sort of awell rounded and holistic
approach.
I don't just do one thing.
I had a friend who wrote a bookcalled The Renaissance Soul And
(52:53):
it was for people like me and,i think, you, who would just die
if they could only do one thing.
There are the Mozart's, whothey're born in diapers, they're
writing music and they're stillwriting music when they die,
but there are the Ben Franklin,buckminster, fuller, wild and
Crazy people who want to go in ahundred different directions
(53:14):
and will settle for ten at atime, and it's a fun existence,
i have to say.
But it's challenging because,like the tradition, one of the
reasons that I've developed allmy skills as a marketing heretic
and my advice is so differentfrom other people is I don't fit
the boxes.
If I tried to do things thetraditional way and have my one
(53:37):
product funnel and have my oneindustry, i would be bored, and
I find it hard to be boredAbsolutely, and I love your
holistic approach to everythingwhat you said about the six dot.
You're into that, you know ifyou're doing that work over and
over again the same thing foryears, i don't know about the
spiritual aspect, and thendifferent people.
(53:58):
Why are you doing this?
Speaker 2 (53:59):
Approach and.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
I'm very happy that there are people who are so many
very focused.
I like your answer.
Just it was very interesting.
You know, like I said, you'redifferent.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Everyone's different And I love asking the question
because we always get differentanswers that highlight how you
agree.
Yeah, perfect, that's what Ilove.
I love that.
(54:32):
What do you see as being one ofthe biggest barriers to people
becoming six star?
Speaker 1 (54:46):
Yeah, and I was totally unrehearsed.
I did listen to one of yourpodcasts and I knew on some
subliminal level that questionwas going to be there, but I
didn't give it any of thesequestions Any prethought.
I think we are all of us facinglimiting beliefs that were
(55:15):
thrust upon us as children, andthey're going to be different
for every person.
I have been fairly lucky inthat most of mine seem to
concentrate on either personalenergy which, in spite of as
much as I do, there's a part ofme that would like to beat
myself up for not doing more orabout I recognize that I do have
money barriers.
(55:36):
My way of dealing with that,rather than solving the money
blocks, is to simply createnon-material wealth.
So I, for example, i travelmore than most of my friends who
make 10 times my income, but Iknow how to travel inexpensively
and educationally and well.
(55:57):
One of the things I do is I'm amember of two different home
stay networks.
So often when I'm in a foreigncountry, i'm staying in
somebody's house and living asthey live for a couple of days
and maybe exploring their citywith them, or maybe getting
recommendations on cool things Iwouldn't have known from a
guidebook to seek out or from awebsite.
(56:19):
But I wrote a long, long timeago.
I wrote a book on having funcheaply called the Penny
Pinching Heednest or Headnest,you might say And it was a fun
book to write.
And it was a really fun book toresearch.
And the research startedprobably 10 years before I knew
I was going to write the book,because that's just how I was
living my life.
I had very little money, but Ihad a value of seeing live
(56:42):
entertainment, of going to newplaces, of eating new foods and
trying restaurants.
So I found ways to do that.
It cost little or nothing, andso I am able to maintain a
lifestyle that looks on thesurface like it's out of
proportion for my income, butreally it's perfectly aligned.
It's just that I don't dothings the way other people do
(57:03):
them.
I treat everything as anadventure.
And there it is.
And also I'm lucky not to haveexpensive editions like smoking
or heavy consumption of alcohol,so that helps as well.
So I'm not as frugal as I waswhen I was writing that book in
(57:24):
the 90s, but I recognize that Ihave the luxury now that I don't
have to watch every penny And Istill I still usher concerts,
get to see them for free.
I've seen some very big namesthat way Once in a while.
I still work as press for anevent like that.
I'm attending something calledthe US Book Show.
(57:46):
Virtually I could have gonedown to New York, but it wasn't
a good time for me to go inperson.
But I did one of theirconferences for press a couple
of years ago and they liked whatI did.
A few weeks ago, i got an emailsaying we have already given
you a press conference.
We hope you can show up.
Okay, so different strategieslike that And I have because I'm
(58:12):
a marketer and I hang out withother marketers I know a lot of
people who are millionaires AndI actually think that I have a
happier quality of life thanmany of them, even if not only
do I not have Lamborghini in mydriveway, but I have a 2012
Honda Fit and a bicycle.
(58:34):
And about high status cars havenever been important to me.
A high status house is notimportant to me.
I love where I live.
I'm very privileged to live ina magnificent 260 some odd year
old farmhouse.
Speaker 2 (58:47):
I love that That was built to last Thanks to sharing
all those things.
I love to have this beautifulview in four directions and all
the things that you do, how youpay only a hundred and three
thousand dollars without thehigh income or the high.
Speaker 1 (59:03):
I guess I just found a house that needs to be my
price range.
Very, very interesting.
We should send some money toupgrade.
But far less than to buy ahouse.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
You've been very quiet.
I'm really keen to hear fromyou.
Speaker 3 (59:17):
You rarely see me actually being that quiet and
not asking any question, butthis time I just lean back and
enjoy it, the amazing story wecould just get told.
So I'm fascinated to.
What I found the mostfascinating is your innate
curiosity, literally, which isactually your key component.
(59:40):
Yeah, why you are so easilycome up with solutions to
problems.
Yeah, people are bothered withAnd, as you said, you're multi
specialist.
Yeah, you're unified andconnective people, especially
nowadays Very important, wherepeople remind themselves that
(01:00:02):
being in a community, being partof a community where it's all
about collaboration, nurturingeach other, is so important than
living on their own, beingselfish.
Yeah, not the understanding ofyour selfish.
Selfish in the sense of I wantto go, i want to create a better
world.
Their selfish is really veryself centric And I'm admiring
(01:00:22):
you for your various missionsAnd I encourage everybody just
to listen into this podcast andhopefully also support you.
Yeah, in getting thosemovements to critical mess so we
can be heard voice.
Yeah, out there.
Very important, not the schema.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Yes, Thank you, and I , just while you were talking, i
flashed on something I read acouple months ago, i think it
was in Evolution 2.0 by PerryMarshall.
The idea of collaboration isnot necessarily only a human
(01:01:23):
thing, that other speciescollaborate, both within members
of their own species but alsowith other species.
There are symbioticrelationships that look on the
surface like they might beparasite or predatory, but are
actually collaborative.
Trees are definitely a part ofthat.
Trees and fungi are veryclosely connected And then, of
(01:01:48):
course, different animals getnutrition from the trees and
then return that nutrition tothe soil in the form of poop,
and nature doesn't wasteanything.
And nature, this whole idea ofsurvival of the fittest and
competition cutthroat and allthat is really a human construct
.
And while, okay, i'm a catowner, i see what happens when
(01:02:11):
you put a cat in a field thathas lots of mice.
It's not pretty.
But I also see that the miceare nurturing, probably, an
ecosystem by keeping smallerannoyances in check, and they
are serving purposes that weprobably don't fully understand.
(01:02:32):
And it's just what a miracle itis this planet that we live on.
It's so finely constructed whenyou think that if you brought
up a spider to human size.
Her web is strong enough tostop a moving jet plane.
Think about that.
(01:02:55):
So if you want to build abridge, ask a spider how,
because they know more than wedo.
This whole idea of biomimicryis a wonderful new science of
the last 20, 30 years.
It's looking at how has naturesolved these problems And how
can we model that.
And it comes into all sorts ofcool things, like an adhesive
that was modeled after the waygeckos walk upside down on a
(01:03:17):
ceiling.
Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
And now the conversation has started.
We could talk about this foranother hour.
Honestly, the biomimicry is soexciting to me And it's so
interesting, right?
Yes, but I love what you saidabout the collaboration piece as
well.
And yeah, so true, so true.
(01:03:40):
And, if anything for me, i'malways looking at ways to look
outside of my own little spaceAnd that's, i think, what you've
demonstrated today, shell, howyou do that, and you look
outside of your own pond You'vegot many ponds and you look
holistically at the earth andall of the different systems
(01:04:05):
that operate, to learn thingsand create connections and see
how we can learn from each otherand therefore become better.
Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
Yeah, and it's.
it ripples through, becausewhat I learned about biomimicry
influences the way that I thinkabout individualized, bespoke
approaches for different clients, because that's what biomimicry
is.
You have a system that's goingto work really well in India
where it's dry for 11 months andthen torrential floods for one
(01:04:36):
month.
That system is not going towork in a place that's all
desert or all rain forest.
You need different solutions inthose.
You might even need differentsolutions for different the same
problem on different sides ofthe same tree.
Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
Exactly, i love it.
I love the way your brain worksAnd I really, really love your
energy and your curiosity, soit's brilliant.
Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Thank you, it has been brilliant.
Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So, as we come to a close, doyou have any final tidbits or
little piece of advice for ourlisteners, any nuggets of wisdom
?
Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
I would say look for ways to follow your heart, but
also look for the ways that aregoing to make those things
practical.
So you don't have to give upyour dreams, but you may have to
modify them a little bit to fitsome constraints, at least
temporarily, and over time youmay be able to overcome those
(01:05:41):
constraints.
That's one.
Another would be there are twokinds of change in the world.
There's kaizen, the gradual,step-by-step improvement, and
then there's the great leapforward.
I actually did a newsletter onthis a couple of months ago that
those are two different stylesand neither is wrong and both
(01:06:01):
are situational.
In some situations you're goingto take the little tiny step,
but then, once you've gottenthree, four steps down the road,
you say, oh, now I can take thegreat leap.
I needed those extra eightinches that I didn't have before
to be able to cross this kaizen.
So you're building groundworkfor yourself, and then it may be
another series of gradualevolutions for a while, and then
(01:06:22):
another great leap.
I'm thinking about smartphones,for example.
Have going from flip phones tosmartphones was a great leap,
but it was made possible bylittle incremental changes such
as oh, we can put a reallyterrible internet browser on
this flip phone And thensomebody would get that and say,
well, what, we made it a goodinternet experience.
(01:06:44):
What would that be like?
And now, if you think about it,we, with this little device, we
are carrying the world'sknowledge in our pockets.
It's not all in our pocket, butwe can access it.
We have every library.
It's out there.
(01:07:05):
You can watch news programsfrom other countries.
You can.
Just what a change that is.
And that's only one of many biginnovations.
When you add that in withthings like 3D printing and, yes
, ai is going to change ourworld, is already changing our
world in good ways and not sogood ways.
And some of these other andthis thinking as organisms
(01:07:33):
within a bio region, ascommunities that can communicate
and work together and sharecommon goals if that's
appropriate and then draw apartand do their own thing when
they're not.
You probably didn't expect thislong and complicated answer.
I didn't expect to give it, butI should stop there.
Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Oh, shell, thank you so much.
Wow, there's a lot there.
Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
We can always do chapter two of this podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
I've been a repeat podcast guest for a few programs
.
I like to do at least sixmonths in between, but it's
amazing.
I feel this call has reallybeen energizing and we've gone
into areas that I don't normallytalk about.
There's no such thing as astandard podcast for me, but
(01:08:28):
there's a general framework theyusually follow and this one is
mostly out of that box Andthat's fun for me And I like
hearing myself going to newplaces And I think you and I
have just right.
We had it when we were talkingwithout the camera.
We had just have a really goodget in.
I think we really connect onsome cellular level.
(01:08:51):
That's different.
Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
I agree, agree, totally.
Yeah, i love it And I'd love tohave you back at some stage,
shell.
I know there's some morespecific topics I think we could
go into.
That would really be beneficialfor all our listeners.
So, but today, thank you somuch, it has been an absolute
honor and privilege, and thankyou for the gifts that you
(01:09:16):
offered our listeners.
Again, the links will be in theshow notes below here that
Shell has given us.
And, yeah, is there any finalcomments that you'd like to make
, shell?
Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
Yeah, just like what you heard today.
You'll find tons of resourcesat goingbeyondsustainabilitycom,
including that freebies pagewith the 10 success and
profitability secrets and thehalf an hour consultation and
all the rest of it And just keeplearning, keep doing.
You need both.
You need to absorb and I amsomebody who loves to absorb
(01:09:52):
knowledge but you also need toact.
Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Yeah, absolutely, perfectly, perfectly finished.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
Thank you.
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