July 9, 2024 • 16 mins
There's a shadow world beneath Canberra, fed by the defence, foreign affairs and security communities, and it is hugely influential in how the government responds to our biggest geopolitical challenges.
Margaret Simons has spent decades keeping a close eye on this world. Recently, the story of one think tank, China Matters, caught her attention.
The group, dedicated to bettering Australia’s understanding of China, was defunded during a time of aggressive posturing towards the superpower and talk of war.
Today, investigative journalist and contributor to The Monthly Margaret Simons on why this influential think tank came undone, and how a crew of anti-China politicians called the ‘Wolverines’ led the attack.
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Guest: Investigative journalist and contributor to The Monthly Margaret Simons
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
From Schwartz Media. I'mrick Morton and this is seven AM.
There's a shadow world beneath camera that is fed by
the Defense, Foreign Affairs, and security communities. It's made up
of advisers who are unknown to the public, but who
are hugely influential in how the government responds to our
biggest geopolitical charges. Investigative journalist Margaret Silence has been given
(00:26):
a close iron its world for decades, and recently the
story of one group and of one woman stood out
to her.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
After hearing gossip about her from several different sources, I
rang her up and as nicely as I could manage,
asked if she was a spy.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Today. The mysterious demise of China matters why this influential
group came undone and how a group of anti China
politicians called the Wolverines led the attack that's coming up.
It's Wednesday, July tenth, Margaret, many of us might feel
(01:12):
as if they really use this hidden words by a
sort of trading state secrets in this subterranean way, especially
in camera, but we might not know exactly what it
looks like. Tell me about this group China matters, why
did they pique your interest.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, you know, it was a very eminent, well regarded
organization up until about twenty nineteen. It had a very
eminent board at different times and there were senior Liberal
Party figures on the board at different times. For more,
I'm joined by Linda Jacobson from the think tank China Matters.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Linda Jacobson, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Is it inevitable?
Speaker 4 (01:47):
So?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It was founded by a Finnish woman, Australian resident and
Finnish national called Linda Jacobson, who was a China expert.
She spent twenty years living in China. She was first
recruited to come to Australia by the Lowe Institute and
then when she left LOWI she founded China Matters with
some others. I think Australia has to think very carefully
(02:09):
about all of these scenarios. How is Australia going to react?
Those decisions need to be made now. I think it's
fair to say that China Matters was pro engagement with China.
Some people think we will be at war with China
within five years, or at least that that's a real possibility.
But whether that's true or not, we're going to be
(02:29):
dealing with China for a long while. It's o major
trading partner, the underpinning of much of our wealth, and
of course you know, a very large and currently aggressive neighbor.
So starting there, they were trying to contribute to a
conversation which would allow Australia to make better, as they
saw it, better policy decisions in how to deal with
the relationship. So I set about to try and find
(02:53):
out the reasons why China Matters was set upon by
the Morrison government in twenty nine, nineteen and twenty twenty,
and ultimately it finally closed up shop earlier this year.
I started with a genuine sense of curiosity. This looks strange,
what's gone on here? And so I was trying to
find out why, why did this happen? Why was it
(03:15):
set upon in this way?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
And of course you have a finally attuned spider sense
for these types of stories. I think you must have
picked up on some kind of gurgling that something was
going on in China Matters, and then you picked that thread.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
What did you start to uncover? Well, there was a
big change, of course, in perceptions of China. You might
remember back in John Howard's prime ministership. The mantra was
that we could both have America as our main security partner,
and we could also have China as our main trading partner,
and that we could manage all this without having to choose.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
We are very desirous of having as much Chinese investment,
both equity and direct investment as possible, and that is
a point that I made to the Chinese leadership during
my discussions.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
But the pushback against China and the change in the
climate began under Malcolm Turnbull's Prime ministership.
Speaker 6 (04:09):
What we need to ensure is that the rise of
China which is happening, nothing's going to stop that, and
any time soon is if you like, conducted in a
manner that does not disturb the security and the relative
(04:30):
harmony of the region upon which China's prosperity depends.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Now, you remember we banned Hiwai from having a role
in building five G in Australia, and then there was
a new foreign interference legislation which required universities, for example,
to register the relationships so they had with foreign researchers
and foreign organizations. This was a big shake up. But
(04:55):
I spoke to Malcolm Turnbull and he was not responsible
for the campaign against China Matters. He said, I don't
know what happened. I don't know what went wrong. Don't
ask me.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
When he left the Prime ministership and Scott Morrison took over,
China Matters was still flying high. And indeed in twenty
eighteen they did a study tour of China and people
like Julian Lesser were on that. Richard Miles, who's now
of course Minister of Defense, all of whom later on
provided testimonials to China Matters website saying how valuable this was.
(05:31):
That was September twenty eighteen, that the end of the
Golden Nearer, as it turned out.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Coming up after the break, a group of anti China
politicians known as the Wolverines take on China Matters. Margaret,
China Matters was this well regarded organization the advice on China,
(06:02):
and it was pro engagement, which didn't go down all
that well with some politician in Canberra. Tell me about
the Wolverines.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
Is it time to give up the Wolverine? Theatrics that
you're a part of with other members of.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Parliament here in the Wolverines was established for a very
good purpose, which is.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
The Wolverines were a group that spanned Labor and the Coalition,
but they were established to speak up against China's aggression
and interference or attempts at interference in Australian politics.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
To undergo the bipartisan support for a strong Australian foreign
policy that stands up for our national interest and our values.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I think they, at one stage, and I think they've
stopped doing this, put claw marks on their doors to
sort of signal membership of this group. And the name
Wolverines was a reference to a nineteen eighty four movie
which I confess I didn't watch as part of my research.
It's Scott Patrick Swayze in it and Charlie Sheen the
movie Red Dawn, in which I gag our high schoo
(07:00):
a football stars thwought a Soviet invasion of the United States.
Two of the most prominent people among the Wolverines on
the Coalition side were Senators Andrew Hasty and James Patterson,
and they were also the names that were most frequently
mentioned to me as the people behind the attacks on
China Matters, and.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
China Matters actually invited two of the Wolverines to China.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
They did, and they agreed to go. But then when
they put in for visas for the Wolverines, that's for
Senators Hasty and Patterson, the Chinese embassy indicated that it
wasn't a convenient time for those particular gentlemen to visit.
So that was embarrassing for everyone because the news leaked.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
And then in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, China Matters is
defunded by the Morrison government and you start looking into why,
and you come across this name that keeps coming up.
A public servant of Chinese background.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yes, Yung Jiang. People may remember when she appeared before
a Senate committee and Senator Eric Abbetts, also a Wolverine,
was on that committee and he demanded of Yongxiang and
another Chinese Australian who was appearing with her, that they
condemned the Communist Party of China.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Can I ask each of the three witnesses to very
briefly tell me whether they are willing to unconditionally condemn
the Communists at the Chinese Communist Party dictatorship.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Before they could sort of say what they had to
say to the Senate committee.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Critics have accused him of prejudice and race baiting and
say that it's part of a concerning trend in rhetoric
about China.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
This is a request that wasn't made of any of
the Caucasian people. Appearing before that Senate committee, there's quite
an outcry at the time. Abbetts was widely condemned. Scott
Morrison said the only pledge anybody should have to make
is the one they make when they get citizenship, which
is loyalty to Australia obviously, so there was quite a
storm about that at the time. Anyway, Yung Jung was
(08:59):
the person at the center of that controversy. But in
this case, many years later, and indeed after the main
attacks on China Matters, she got a fellowship that was
in partnership with China Matters and did some research in China.
As a result of that fellowship. When I started asking
questions around this strange community, her name was raised with me.
(09:22):
And as I say, there's a lot of gossip in
this land as somebody who was a person under suspicion.
I was told that there had been an ASIO investigation
into her. Nobody knew the result of that investigation, or
nobody I spoke to in any case, but it was
suggested to me that that was one of the security
concerns put those words in inverted commas, which was the
(09:46):
reason part of the reason for the attacks on China
matters and why it was denied DGR status.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Did you manage to track her down?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I did, yes, after hearing gossip about her from several
different sources. I rang her up and as nicely as
I could manage, asked her if she was a spy.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I'm laughing because I'm nervous because I know that that's
where this has got to in this.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Country, right, Yeah, not a conversation that I expect have
very often. I have to say. All I can say
is if that she is a person advancing foreign interference
or indeed a spy, she's got very strange spycraft, because
she spoke to me about these suspicions very openly and
consented to have the material that's in my article published,
which is, you know, strange.
Speaker 7 (10:32):
Indeed, thank you, thank you, thank you for the introduction,
and so great to see everyone here.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I should also say that Yung Jiang, apart from being
a public servant, she's also an academic. You know, She's
participated in public forums, democratic forums.
Speaker 7 (10:47):
This was the thinking behind the questioning daringm id send
a hearing experience where three Australians of Chinese background were
asked to condemn the Chinese Communist Party for no reason
other than they have a Chinese background.
Speaker 6 (11:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
It all seems to come back to these security concerns
in the comments, as you say, you know what were
those concerns?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Exactly? I mean government is perfectly entitled to fund or
not to fund organizations. Of course, not every organization that
would like to be funded gets funding. And when I
was exploring why, I was told I have got three
main sources for this. But the first one told me
it was nothing to do with the quality of the work,
nothing to do with any individuals, no suggestion they were
(11:27):
taking money from Beijing or anything of that sort, but
nevertheless that it was a security concern. Now, I squeezed
hard on this particular lemon and didn't get much clarity
about what it was. As I said, they made it
clear there was no suggestion they were in the pay
of Beijing, or that there was any particular individual who
was a problem. Rather, the security concern was something about
(11:51):
the way they operated, something about the business model. This
is really unclear because how did they operate. Well, they
took goment funding up until twenty nineteen, twenty twenty and
provided briefings and reports and so on. In return for that.
They also got some funding from private businesses who had
interests in China, but that was all pretty transparent. So yeah,
(12:14):
what was this security concern? Well, as far as I
can tell, it seems to be the meetings and the
study tours and the fact that people which included parliamentarians
and Sinney bureaucrats and business people might meet members of
the Communist Party and might be subject to people who
were actively trying to interfere or influence Australian politics. That
(12:36):
seems to be it the security concerns or perceived security concerns.
I described them in the article as sort of columns
of smoke. When I actually try to grasp at them,
and I interviewed a number of people, including Peter Carlill,
who's currently the chair of the Parliamentary committee that oversees
the Security Services, there isn't really anything definite there, it
(12:57):
seems to me, so I'm not convinced.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Basically, at the end of all of this, I mean,
you set out to partially I guess explore this spooky
underground network of spires and the national security apparatus, and
of course discovered more columns of smoke. I guess does
it tell you anything about the way that you know
these forces are shaping our politics as they currently stand.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Well in this episode, and I'm not going to suggest
that this is represented in one hopes it's not representative
of the whole lot in this episode. It seems to
me that we've jumped at shadows and that a source
of an alternative point of view on China. I'm not
saying you have to agree with it. It should be
up for criticism like anything else, but a source of
(13:41):
an alternative argument. An alternative point of view was made
non viable by the deliberate actions of government with the
death of China Matters. We are still incredibly thin for
real depth of understanding of China in the foreign policy
and defense community. There's something worryingly autocratic about that, particularly
(14:06):
given that we are supposed to be combating an autocratic China.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Margaret Simon's I love your work, love your journalism. Thank
you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Rick. Also in the news, Minister for Indigenous Australians. Linda
Bernie has said that only long term solutions can solve
(14:40):
the ongoing violence and unrest in Ourice Springs. Her comments
come as police instituted a snap three day curfew after
off duty police officers we're allegedly assaulted over the weekend.
Police are enforcing the lockdown and using new powers given
to them in May in a bid to stop youth
crime in the city. Bernie said that while the curfew
(15:00):
is important, quote, you can't arrest your way out of
this and the community and government need to work together
and a new Anti Semitism Envoy will work with the
government to address the increasing targeting of Jewish people in Australia.
After October seven, standing outside the Jewish Museum in Sydney,
Prime Minister Anthony and Albaneze said the Envoy would help
(15:21):
increase social cohesion in Australia and that a Special Envoy
on Islabophobia will also soon be appointed. The new role
was welcomed by the Coalition and the Executive Council of
Australian Jury. The Jewish Council of Australia, however, expressed concern
that the Anti Semitism Envoy might risk inflaming to visions
by fouling to distinguished between Jewishness and support for Israel.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
That's all for.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Today and I'm Rick Morton. This is seven am.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
See you tomorrow.
From Schwartz Media. I'mrick Morton and this is seven AM.
There's a shadow world beneath camera that is fed by
the Defense, Foreign Affairs, and security communities. It's made up
of advisers who are unknown to the public, but who
are hugely influential in how the government responds to our
biggest geopolitical charges. Investigative journalist Margaret Silence has been given
(00:26):
a close iron its world for decades, and recently the
story of one group and of one woman stood out
to her.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
After hearing gossip about her from several different sources, I
rang her up and as nicely as I could manage,
asked if she was a spy.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Today. The mysterious demise of China matters why this influential
group came undone and how a group of anti China
politicians called the Wolverines led the attack that's coming up.
It's Wednesday, July tenth, Margaret, many of us might feel
(01:12):
as if they really use this hidden words by a
sort of trading state secrets in this subterranean way, especially
in camera, but we might not know exactly what it
looks like. Tell me about this group China matters, why
did they pique your interest.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, you know, it was a very eminent, well regarded
organization up until about twenty nineteen. It had a very
eminent board at different times and there were senior Liberal
Party figures on the board at different times. For more,
I'm joined by Linda Jacobson from the think tank China Matters.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Linda Jacobson, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Is it inevitable?
Speaker 4 (01:47):
So?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It was founded by a Finnish woman, Australian resident and
Finnish national called Linda Jacobson, who was a China expert.
She spent twenty years living in China. She was first
recruited to come to Australia by the Lowe Institute and
then when she left LOWI she founded China Matters with
some others. I think Australia has to think very carefully
(02:09):
about all of these scenarios. How is Australia going to react?
Those decisions need to be made now. I think it's
fair to say that China Matters was pro engagement with China.
Some people think we will be at war with China
within five years, or at least that that's a real possibility.
But whether that's true or not, we're going to be
(02:29):
dealing with China for a long while. It's o major
trading partner, the underpinning of much of our wealth, and
of course you know, a very large and currently aggressive neighbor.
So starting there, they were trying to contribute to a
conversation which would allow Australia to make better, as they
saw it, better policy decisions in how to deal with
the relationship. So I set about to try and find
(02:53):
out the reasons why China Matters was set upon by
the Morrison government in twenty nine, nineteen and twenty twenty,
and ultimately it finally closed up shop earlier this year.
I started with a genuine sense of curiosity. This looks strange,
what's gone on here? And so I was trying to
find out why, why did this happen? Why was it
(03:15):
set upon in this way?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
And of course you have a finally attuned spider sense
for these types of stories. I think you must have
picked up on some kind of gurgling that something was
going on in China Matters, and then you picked that thread.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
What did you start to uncover? Well, there was a
big change, of course, in perceptions of China. You might
remember back in John Howard's prime ministership. The mantra was
that we could both have America as our main security partner,
and we could also have China as our main trading partner,
and that we could manage all this without having to choose.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
We are very desirous of having as much Chinese investment,
both equity and direct investment as possible, and that is
a point that I made to the Chinese leadership during
my discussions.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
But the pushback against China and the change in the
climate began under Malcolm Turnbull's Prime ministership.
Speaker 6 (04:09):
What we need to ensure is that the rise of
China which is happening, nothing's going to stop that, and
any time soon is if you like, conducted in a
manner that does not disturb the security and the relative
(04:30):
harmony of the region upon which China's prosperity depends.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Now, you remember we banned Hiwai from having a role
in building five G in Australia, and then there was
a new foreign interference legislation which required universities, for example,
to register the relationships so they had with foreign researchers
and foreign organizations. This was a big shake up. But
(04:55):
I spoke to Malcolm Turnbull and he was not responsible
for the campaign against China Matters. He said, I don't
know what happened. I don't know what went wrong. Don't
ask me.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
When he left the Prime ministership and Scott Morrison took over,
China Matters was still flying high. And indeed in twenty
eighteen they did a study tour of China and people
like Julian Lesser were on that. Richard Miles, who's now
of course Minister of Defense, all of whom later on
provided testimonials to China Matters website saying how valuable this was.
(05:31):
That was September twenty eighteen, that the end of the
Golden Nearer, as it turned out.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Coming up after the break, a group of anti China
politicians known as the Wolverines take on China Matters. Margaret,
China Matters was this well regarded organization the advice on China,
(06:02):
and it was pro engagement, which didn't go down all
that well with some politician in Canberra. Tell me about
the Wolverines.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
Is it time to give up the Wolverine? Theatrics that
you're a part of with other members of.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Parliament here in the Wolverines was established for a very
good purpose, which is.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
The Wolverines were a group that spanned Labor and the Coalition,
but they were established to speak up against China's aggression
and interference or attempts at interference in Australian politics.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
To undergo the bipartisan support for a strong Australian foreign
policy that stands up for our national interest and our values.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I think they, at one stage, and I think they've
stopped doing this, put claw marks on their doors to
sort of signal membership of this group. And the name
Wolverines was a reference to a nineteen eighty four movie
which I confess I didn't watch as part of my research.
It's Scott Patrick Swayze in it and Charlie Sheen the
movie Red Dawn, in which I gag our high schoo
(07:00):
a football stars thwought a Soviet invasion of the United States.
Two of the most prominent people among the Wolverines on
the Coalition side were Senators Andrew Hasty and James Patterson,
and they were also the names that were most frequently
mentioned to me as the people behind the attacks on
China Matters, and.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
China Matters actually invited two of the Wolverines to China.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
They did, and they agreed to go. But then when
they put in for visas for the Wolverines, that's for
Senators Hasty and Patterson, the Chinese embassy indicated that it
wasn't a convenient time for those particular gentlemen to visit.
So that was embarrassing for everyone because the news leaked.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
And then in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, China Matters is
defunded by the Morrison government and you start looking into why,
and you come across this name that keeps coming up.
A public servant of Chinese background.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yes, Yung Jiang. People may remember when she appeared before
a Senate committee and Senator Eric Abbetts, also a Wolverine,
was on that committee and he demanded of Yongxiang and
another Chinese Australian who was appearing with her, that they
condemned the Communist Party of China.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Can I ask each of the three witnesses to very
briefly tell me whether they are willing to unconditionally condemn
the Communists at the Chinese Communist Party dictatorship.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Before they could sort of say what they had to
say to the Senate committee.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Critics have accused him of prejudice and race baiting and
say that it's part of a concerning trend in rhetoric
about China.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
This is a request that wasn't made of any of
the Caucasian people. Appearing before that Senate committee, there's quite
an outcry at the time. Abbetts was widely condemned. Scott
Morrison said the only pledge anybody should have to make
is the one they make when they get citizenship, which
is loyalty to Australia obviously, so there was quite a
storm about that at the time. Anyway, Yung Jung was
(08:59):
the person at the center of that controversy. But in
this case, many years later, and indeed after the main
attacks on China Matters, she got a fellowship that was
in partnership with China Matters and did some research in China.
As a result of that fellowship. When I started asking
questions around this strange community, her name was raised with me.
(09:22):
And as I say, there's a lot of gossip in
this land as somebody who was a person under suspicion.
I was told that there had been an ASIO investigation
into her. Nobody knew the result of that investigation, or
nobody I spoke to in any case, but it was
suggested to me that that was one of the security
concerns put those words in inverted commas, which was the
(09:46):
reason part of the reason for the attacks on China
matters and why it was denied DGR status.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Did you manage to track her down?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I did, yes, after hearing gossip about her from several
different sources. I rang her up and as nicely as
I could manage, asked her if she was a spy.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I'm laughing because I'm nervous because I know that that's
where this has got to in this.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Country, right, Yeah, not a conversation that I expect have
very often. I have to say. All I can say
is if that she is a person advancing foreign interference
or indeed a spy, she's got very strange spycraft, because
she spoke to me about these suspicions very openly and
consented to have the material that's in my article published,
which is, you know, strange.
Speaker 7 (10:32):
Indeed, thank you, thank you, thank you for the introduction,
and so great to see everyone here.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I should also say that Yung Jiang, apart from being
a public servant, she's also an academic. You know, She's
participated in public forums, democratic forums.
Speaker 7 (10:47):
This was the thinking behind the questioning daringm id send
a hearing experience where three Australians of Chinese background were
asked to condemn the Chinese Communist Party for no reason
other than they have a Chinese background.
Speaker 6 (11:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
It all seems to come back to these security concerns
in the comments, as you say, you know what were
those concerns?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Exactly? I mean government is perfectly entitled to fund or
not to fund organizations. Of course, not every organization that
would like to be funded gets funding. And when I
was exploring why, I was told I have got three
main sources for this. But the first one told me
it was nothing to do with the quality of the work,
nothing to do with any individuals, no suggestion they were
(11:27):
taking money from Beijing or anything of that sort, but
nevertheless that it was a security concern. Now, I squeezed
hard on this particular lemon and didn't get much clarity
about what it was. As I said, they made it
clear there was no suggestion they were in the pay
of Beijing, or that there was any particular individual who
was a problem. Rather, the security concern was something about
(11:51):
the way they operated, something about the business model. This
is really unclear because how did they operate. Well, they
took goment funding up until twenty nineteen, twenty twenty and
provided briefings and reports and so on. In return for that.
They also got some funding from private businesses who had
interests in China, but that was all pretty transparent. So yeah,
(12:14):
what was this security concern? Well, as far as I
can tell, it seems to be the meetings and the
study tours and the fact that people which included parliamentarians
and Sinney bureaucrats and business people might meet members of
the Communist Party and might be subject to people who
were actively trying to interfere or influence Australian politics. That
(12:36):
seems to be it the security concerns or perceived security concerns.
I described them in the article as sort of columns
of smoke. When I actually try to grasp at them,
and I interviewed a number of people, including Peter Carlill,
who's currently the chair of the Parliamentary committee that oversees
the Security Services, there isn't really anything definite there, it
(12:57):
seems to me, so I'm not convinced.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Basically, at the end of all of this, I mean,
you set out to partially I guess explore this spooky
underground network of spires and the national security apparatus, and
of course discovered more columns of smoke. I guess does
it tell you anything about the way that you know
these forces are shaping our politics as they currently stand.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Well in this episode, and I'm not going to suggest
that this is represented in one hopes it's not representative
of the whole lot in this episode. It seems to
me that we've jumped at shadows and that a source
of an alternative point of view on China. I'm not
saying you have to agree with it. It should be
up for criticism like anything else, but a source of
(13:41):
an alternative argument. An alternative point of view was made
non viable by the deliberate actions of government with the
death of China Matters. We are still incredibly thin for
real depth of understanding of China in the foreign policy
and defense community. There's something worryingly autocratic about that, particularly
(14:06):
given that we are supposed to be combating an autocratic China.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Margaret Simon's I love your work, love your journalism. Thank
you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Rick. Also in the news, Minister for Indigenous Australians. Linda
Bernie has said that only long term solutions can solve
(14:40):
the ongoing violence and unrest in Ourice Springs. Her comments
come as police instituted a snap three day curfew after
off duty police officers we're allegedly assaulted over the weekend.
Police are enforcing the lockdown and using new powers given
to them in May in a bid to stop youth
crime in the city. Bernie said that while the curfew
(15:00):
is important, quote, you can't arrest your way out of
this and the community and government need to work together
and a new Anti Semitism Envoy will work with the
government to address the increasing targeting of Jewish people in Australia.
After October seven, standing outside the Jewish Museum in Sydney,
Prime Minister Anthony and Albaneze said the Envoy would help
(15:21):
increase social cohesion in Australia and that a Special Envoy
on Islabophobia will also soon be appointed. The new role
was welcomed by the Coalition and the Executive Council of
Australian Jury. The Jewish Council of Australia, however, expressed concern
that the Anti Semitism Envoy might risk inflaming to visions
by fouling to distinguished between Jewishness and support for Israel.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
That's all for.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Today and I'm Rick Morton. This is seven am.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
See you tomorrow.
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