November 16, 2021 • 58 mins
We chat with Dr. Sarah Guthals, Principal Dev Advocate at Microsoft, about tech, life, and anything in between.
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Pj Metz (02:01):
answer your question about how
Brandon Minnick (02:09):
PJ and I were just chatting back and forth.
intro music still Three minutes.
Three minutes, but now it's twominutes, buddy to another
episode of eight bits, your hostBrandon Minnick. And with me as
always, PJ Metz, PA, how's yourweek?
Pj Metz (02:28):
I'm PJ I'm having a great, great, great week. I am
currently in the middle of agreat internal event at GitLab
called contribute where all daylong we have talks from people
at get lab and team buildingactivities and there's a bunch
of video games that I've beenplaying from GitLab contribute
(02:49):
and one of them is like the gamebreakout Did you ever play like
break or Arkanoid for SuperNintendo is
Brandon Minnick (02:57):
the bar on the bottom and you like hit a ball
that
Pj Metz (03:03):
you got it? That's the exact exact one you're
absolutely correct. It is takingup so much of my time because I
had the highest score at likenine o'clock this morning. And
now I'm in third place and it'sdriving me crazy. So I have a
haircut appointment later today.
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna havemy laptop during my haircut just
like trying to get the highscore on that. So if I need to
(03:24):
send back my MacBook becausethere's a bunch of tiny hairs in
the keyboard. No one sayanything. Okay. All right.
That's a little secret.
Brandon Minnick (03:37):
Get that little kid. That compressed air spray.
Maybe even the Barbara willforget it.
Pj Metz (03:47):
Yeah, maybe I put some.
Put some talc powder on theretoo. That's good for the
computer, right?
Brandon Minnick (03:57):
Yeah, this is a straight razor on the keyboard.
Okay, yeah, it's
Pj Metz (04:01):
gotta have clean edges.
Gotta have clean edges on there.
No, no, no bevels just straightlines. So Brandon, I hate to
tell you this, but your yourimage is frozen for me. But I
don't know if that's true foreveryone. But please trust me.
Brandon's here live. This is notjust me cleverly. I assure you
(04:26):
he is here we are
Brandon Minnick (04:29):
doing something special. Today. I am actually in
Prague. I just landed a coupleout and hosted hosted remotely.
We're having all sorts oftechnical issues getting
started. So if it sounds likeI'm talking from the moon, and
(04:50):
because of audio delays,apologize in advance, but I am
here because there's an awesomeconference. Francis Ogg Has it
developed? It's called Oldconference I've spoken at, oh,
gosh, I think this will be myfourth year in a row. Last year
(05:12):
was remote. For conferences.
It's one of the biggest dotnetis actually I think it is the
dotnet conference in Central. Sothere's all sorts of good dotnet
goodies coming out. And not inPrague. Even if you're not in
Central, you can't swing by andsay hi, check out I think in the
comments up net, you can findall the talks live stream, make
(05:36):
sure you check it out.
Pj Metz (05:41):
It's what if you are
Brandon Minnick (05:43):
always been one of my favorite if
Pj Metz (05:44):
you are in Prague, swing by and say hi, to Brandon.
Absolutely. For our our hugevariety of listeners are
currently in Prague. So Brandon,you got the update conference
that you're talking about rightnow? You've got the dotnet
conference from last week. Didyou say earlier that that stuff
(06:07):
is now available that you canjust access the materials from
that now?
Brandon Minnick (06:14):
Yeah, that's right. Done last. Clean timing,
we always have it we will beMicrosoft. I didn't have
anything to do with this. ButMicrosoft releases Visual
Studio, the new version ofVisual Studio, new versions of
dotnet new versions of C sharp,all those goodies come out at
(06:35):
the same time. And that's whatdotnet comm all about? Those
videos have been in recorded youcan check them out at dotnet
comp.net.
Pj Metz (06:48):
Not a confusing URL and all y'all
Unknown (06:50):
E T.
Pj Metz (06:53):
C. I'm gonna throw it up on the screen.
Brandon Minnick (06:59):
I've got a playlist played in the
background. Yeah, it's goodstuff. If you're like me, like
to have just something going onbackground, a little bit of
white noise tests are compilingto look up and catch up. I've
grabbed those videos fromdotnet. And check them out. Then
(07:19):
know about oh, in the update.
Conference is all done. And allthe video. So I've got plenty of
videos just for the upcomingholiday season.
Pj Metz (07:32):
Fantastic. Listen, we got to have content to get us
through those. As I understandit in tech, December's kind of a
month where things happen, workhappens, but not really kind of
and people take time off. And asa teacher, I always do. Okay,
I'm getting my two weeks off. Ididn't know tech likes to do
(07:52):
that, too. So I'm super excitedthat I still get a winter break.
So yeah, like Brandon said, ifyou're still looking for
something, something when you'resitting around and you want to
keep those skills sharp or youwant to hear about what's coming
up, that's new, looking at oldconferences, especially dotnet
comm dotnet is a great, greatresource. Brandon, what? What do
(08:15):
we have today? What's What'stoday's show gonna be? Who are
we talking to?
Brandon Minnick (08:21):
A cool guest.
Spider through G. So, Mike, thesmart add on the show we've ever
had a PhD on the show before.
Microsoft will call thedeveloper relations development
(08:46):
gussied. Let's welcome to theshow. Dr. Bethells today. Hi.
Sarah Guthals (08:59):
Thank you, thank you for having me. Speaking of
like December time off, I'm kindof excited nervous. I'm getting
served through December 7. ButI'm like, oh, downtime. I'm just
gonna be like, you know, acouple of weeks while I'm
drugged up on painkillers,probably just watching things on
shutter. But then I can likejust having the random stuff is
(09:20):
gonna be awesome.
Pj Metz (09:24):
That downtime to actually like do stuff and like,
like, like, I've got downtime.
And it's funny because like,there used to be a very negative
way of looking at that. Like, Iremember when I was going to a
job that I was frustrated withor having a hard time with. I'd
be like, Man, what happened iflike my car just kind of hit
this concrete barrier. I wouldhave so much time to just do
whatever I wanted and like like
Sarah Guthals (09:53):
I used to think that so often like Oh, but you
know just like a little comawhere I can just sleep. Just
Just for a little while, like,you know,
Pj Metz (10:03):
nothing serious. And I don't mean. Yeah, but luckily
like, you know, like when youfind a job that you like a
little better, that's nice. Butlisten, the downtime you said
surgery is this. Is this aserious surgery or is it like
elected like, are you okay?
Sarah Guthals (10:21):
You kind of it's kind of huge i I'm getting knee
surgery, it's essentially like aknee reconstruction. So I found
that Reese, I've got nocartilage, like, left in my
knee. So really cool surgerythere. They took a biopsy of the
little tiny bit of cartilagethat's left and they regrew me
(10:42):
cartilage. Um, so yeah, I'mgoing to be getting cartilage in
my right knee. They're going tobe doing something with my tibia
and something with my patella. Idon't know, there's like three
major procedures happening. Andthen once I'm covered enough, my
partner should be getting adonor meniscus because that'd
take his time. And once he'srecovered enough, we'll look at
(11:05):
my left knee because you know,we just don't like leaving this
family.
Pj Metz (11:11):
Man, that's terrifying.
Oh,
Sarah Guthals (11:14):
yeah. Yeah, but you know
Brandon Minnick (11:21):
like the million dollar, man.
Sarah Guthals (11:24):
It'll be yes.
It's gonna be
Pj Metz (11:27):
I wish I had that sound ready to go that doo doo doo doo
doo. So I feel like we did adoc, Dr. Gotthold. I feel like,
we'd love to have you tell usabout yourself and your history
and why you are the way you areget as deep as you need to. But
(11:50):
tell us all about
Sarah Guthals (11:55):
1988. Actually, yesterday was my birthday. So
you know, mid 30s Over here. Butyeah, I mean, I am someone who
is passionate about education,how people learn and technology,
(12:16):
particularly about technology.
Because, you know, when I was incollege, I realized this is the
way to access a lot of people.
And with just a little bit ofunderstanding or knowledge or
skill. Folks can use this tool,technology being kind of a
(12:36):
general tool to improve theirlives, even if it's not at their
building or their industry, ifthey understand how to use it,
or how it's being used.
Hopefully understand how itimpacts their life and kind of
improve that. So yeah, I comefrom a single mother who is from
South America, what do I wish alittle country to Argentina, and
(13:00):
was when I was two, she startedcollege. She hadn't gotten to
college yet. And so my entireupbringing was centered around
the importance of education. Andshe ended up becoming a school
teacher. She just retired lastyear when I was able to move her
(13:21):
up to live with us so I'mexcited about that. And yeah,
education learning as it was wasmy special interest I would
pretend teach that was my
Pj Metz (13:39):
and I still wasn't getting good reviews
Sarah Guthals (13:44):
Yeah, and so I I loved it but I I always wanted
to be a medical doctor bigreason is I have asthma and I
would participate as a guineapig in asthma for medications.
So sir tech being over thecounter partially because I let
them give me sir tech
Pj Metz (14:08):
that sounds like you should be saying like I'm part
of the research that broadsearch act to the general public
in your LinkedIn
Sarah Guthals (14:18):
Yeah, Intertek over the counter and
prescription even I was like,wow, this is so cool. So I, I
love the idea of, of, of just,you know, Science and Learning
and, and, and research and allof that. And so, I wanted to be
(14:40):
a medical doctor, and then Icollege where I was working
three jobs to pay for it. And Ifailed my math and my chemistry
class. And so I called my momand I was like, Mom, no, like,
any college where I can explorenot so steep price and find some
(15:03):
things because what I reallylove the research, but I didn't
love the memorization and a lotof medicine is just knowing
things, and I don't care tomemorize. And so she was like
before, please, please, likethis university was was always
your dream just for the year. SoI did, and lucky, my very first
(15:28):
computer science teacher, whichI had no clue what computer
science was, was this woman,Beth Simon, who not only was a
woman, not only like, he wasinvested in teaching, but her
research in computer science washow people learn computer
science. So the most magicalIntroduction to Computer
(15:50):
Science, which is me being inthe lab, having my programs fail
supportively that even thetutors would have the solution
open next to it on the computerand couldn't figure out why mine
wasn't working sogreat about it is that the
computer would tell you whensomething went wrong, you know,
(16:11):
and, and, and if something didgo wrong, no one was dying. I
mean, you can get into tech workwhere people could die. And I'm
not in that part of because Ican handle that. But, but there
was it was a it was a logicgame, it was fine to figure
things out. And and it was justfun. It felt like a puzzle every
(16:32):
day. And so I switched majors, Iwas able to say I felt more
comfortable taking out loans andquitting my jobs because I felt
like I could get a job aftergraduating, not going to started
doing research in how peoplelearn. Computers ended up
staying for Masters and PhD atthat same It's Beth. She became
(16:55):
my advisor along with with BillGridWorld. And one of my best
friends ended up like rentingher house from her and she
moved.
Unknown (17:10):
That's awesome. You know, and just
Sarah Guthals (17:12):
I stayed and you know, there was like a holdings
I started a company while I wasdoing my code. We taught teach,
how to teach kids how to codebuilds a Minecraft modding soft
browser prior to Microsoft'sacquisition of Minecraft. wrote
(17:33):
some books, I contracted withvarious company names, including
git where I built like a GitHubfor kids under 13, which was
fun. I then was eight monthspregnant, and we decided to stop
that contracting project. Andquickly got a full time
job. You know, and yeah, I waslucky enough to work with the
(18:00):
incredible Phil hack, as mymanager. And I led a team of 10
in the world, building theGitHub integrations into Visual
Studio, code unity. And thenmoved over to Microsoft to
basically be a dev advocate. Andworking on data science machine
learning, I got the opportunityto like tie in Netflix movies
(18:25):
and Warner Brothers movies, thenarratives have been learning
and partner with on teachingpeople about data science as it
applies to, like landing on themoon. It's just want to fund
right. So yeah, I'm learning.
Pj Metz (18:41):
I got to echo what Brandon said at the beginning of
the show that like you areprolifically intelligent and
like you've done so much andlike I like it's intimidating to
hear how how wide a spectrum ofamazing things you've done. And
(19:02):
I'm just so glad to be like,like to be sitting here with
you. Because this is such a Ijust feel blessed and lucky to
be around you. So don't letanyone ever tell you you're not
amazing, cuz you're totallyamazing. Holy moly, Sarah.
Sarah Guthals (19:15):
I mean, I definitely appreciate that. I I
feel like though, you know, like15 years ago when I would hear
these people say, Oh, I alwaysknew what I was meant to do. And
I was like, that's not possible.
How could you know that? Irealized now that I've been very
lucky. And I believe I believethat everything that has
(19:36):
happened has been a combinationof luck. And being prepared to
take advantage of that luck,right? Like if love presents
itself to you and you're notready to just take advantage
that you're not lucky, right? Imean, PJ you I think it would be
kind of similar to you, right?
Like, you met some folks you metBrandon. You met Chloe and then
(19:59):
you took him You have that andyou were prepared to do that.
Right? So, yes. Was it luckythat you knew people? Yes. But
also, you were ready to grabthat and take it. And, and
that's honestly what it's been,it's been kind of prepping for
that lately knowing what I careabout and what it is I'm
(20:20):
passionate about and just takingchances. Yeah.
Brandon Minnick (20:27):
So I'd love to jump back to back back into the
education side, because a lot ofthe go don't the traditional
computer science, let alone themaster's degree? The D in it.
What I'm curious what whatopportunities opened up
progressed? Because you'reworking on your master's? Does
(20:55):
that like, why isn't your moveon HD? What big focus to pass?
Sarah Guthals (21:03):
Yeah. First, I want to say and I actually made
a tick tock about this, becausethere was some rhetoric
happening on Twitter aboutneeding to have a degree from
MIT be able to get in to me assomeone with a PhD in computer
science, who might my mydissertation was about designing
(21:25):
learning experiences for novicesin tech, you do not need to have
that degree. You could go watchmy tech talk about it. But so I
want to say that first andforemost, and honestly, what
kind of interesting about myjourney in particular, there is,
for example, I told you kind oflike the history of where I came
(21:46):
from, and I supplied thatengineering position at GitHub.
I had a recruiter tell me that Iwasn't qualified to be an
engineering manager. Andluckily, I was eight months
pregnant, and my mama bear cameout, and I pull back. And I
said, No, no, I think I am. Um,I mean, I ran a startup all the
(22:07):
way through main dollar revenue.
Before I left, I ran researchlabs, like I think I am. And
luckily, she pushed my resumeover to Phil and Phil was like,
yes, definitely, she'squalified, I definitely want to
interview her. Um, but, butwhat's interesting about kind of
each of the progressive degreesor our position had is that a
gave me an opportunity toexplore the parts of the
(22:31):
industry that aren't just thetechnical parts. So for when
you're when you're going throughyour master's degree, it's
basically like, undergradcourses, but hyper focused on
and so the difference between anundergrad degree where you are
also getting general education,is that you get to dive a little
(22:54):
bit deeper into the technicalproblems. And that's not
something you typically get todo an undergrad, you get to do a
little bit more open endedproblems, and maybe start
researching and cutting edgeresearch that's happening. So
that's kind of what that gaveme. During the PhDs kind of
complete opposite the courseworkis minimally important. It's
(23:16):
more about how you take ideas,explore something that no one
else has explored before. Toearn a PhD in any field, you
have to prove that you'vecontributed something to that.
Honestly, it's easier to get aPhD in computer science than in
math, imagine having tocontribute, to feel somatics I
(23:39):
just
Pj Metz (23:43):
don't want to talk too hard PhD, like literature where
you have a new
Sarah Guthals (23:50):
wild I think, but what that gives me is the
opportunity to think outside thebox about how, how I approach
solving a problem that I'mdefining the problem, right?
Like, I'm identifying theproblem, I'm defining why it's a
(24:11):
hard problem to solve. I mean,you know, what affects people
and then I'm, I'm the solutionfor it. And that was something
that then led to be a company,right? And then now with a
cutting you have to take thatkind of problem solving. And
also add in this businessaspect, you have to make money.
(24:32):
And it's not because we wereselfish and wanted money, it was
because to make like to employpeople we have money so that we
can employ people they, youknow, have us be their full time
job and not be worried that itwas going to disappear. And you
know, our customers can rely onthe fact that every summer every
(24:53):
you know after school programwould be and they plan on that
for the future and each oneposition I think it was a good
question, Brandon, because itpresented me with an aspect that
was kind of above the tech. Itwas above the the topic, and it
was more about how I'mapproaching that community. But,
(25:16):
but it also meant that singletime I've ever applied for a job
I've had to prove by that jobtool is something that could
match me, because I've never hada job title that really defines
what it is I do.
Pj Metz (25:34):
I think that's the hard part about titles in general.
Sarah Guthals (25:38):
Yeah, it is. It is.
Brandon Minnick (25:42):
But I've also say, and I don't know if the
company but a lot of companies Iworked at most of those so
usually started like a level onethen get promoted to level
three, and sometimes they changethe level three anyways, you
have level bulls and forbuddies, maybe curious and
(26:07):
getting the Masters getting thePhD. The couple buddies,
bachelor's degree, I experiencewill start to level what masters
give you a level two, and PhDwill start yet there is some
monetary but don't want to. Ifsomebody is looking for making
(26:30):
more money, and then wants to
Sarah Guthals (26:33):
go for it. Yeah, no, that's definitely true. I
will say that I, I pretty muchat the same level as friends who
did not get their degrees. Andin terms of like, the amount of
years it took me to get my viewwas very similar to the amount
of years it took them to getpromoted to the level that I
(26:53):
would then be hired at. Um, I'mgrateful for my journey, because
with my ADHD and autism with myinterest in learning and things
like I could not have surviveddoing a nine to five for those
years, like I needed to be ableto be jumping around 500 ways.
But But yeah, I mean, they'rethere and think that like higher
(27:17):
degrees or, or, or not even justthe degree but like alternative
jobs, or alternative experiencesalso give you to have more
creative roles, I would not havebeen qualified for position. If
I done like, soft, using VisualStudio and building with Visual
(27:39):
Studio, I had built, basicallycode editor and I built video
game in unity to teach kids howto code. So leading a team of
people who build or do VS codeand unity, Adam, like, did all
of that, basically, I wouldn'thave been very well qualified.
(28:01):
And it was hard for Phil to findsomeone who understood all of
these different, like Nuancecommunities, is very different
from a Visual Studio developer.
So that was kind of, like, youknow, a unique set of experience
that led me there. I love thataspect.
Pj Metz (28:22):
You have to under a second, what a lot of people
worry about is that their pastis somehow a hindrance to them
and where they're headed. Butyour your past has led you to
exactly where you are. And I sawan image today. And it was all
the paths that you could havetaken in the past, and they're
all over the place. But thenit's okay. But where are you
(28:44):
now, these are paths that youcannot take anymore. That's not
available to you anymore. Butwhat sits in front of you are an
equally number of infinitepaths, that your specific
journey has led you to have theopportunity for earlier, Dr.
Couples, you said it's like youtook advantage of a chance of
(29:04):
luck. And that's that's whatopportunity is. And that's why I
think when we talk about equity,and we talk about equal
opportunity, that's what we'retalking about. Not everyone has
the same set of opportunities.
So if we call it hard work andnot what it is, which is not
only did you have the luck to bethere, but you had the the
ability to say yes to it. WhenBrandon first said, PJ, I think
(29:28):
you should learn to code. I hada summer ahead of me of a
pandemic where I was literallygoing to be sitting at home and
doing nothing. I used to work asecond job as a teacher and I
was like, Well, I don't havethat. So I guess I'll learn the
code. So I had an opportunity tosay yes, because my
circumstances allowed me to. Soit's all about like, yes, taking
(29:52):
advantage of the opportunity,but you're someone with a PhD,
Brandon Someone with a CS degreeon someone with a degree in
reading poetry, like we havedifferent opportunities, but
we're finding that our, ourdifferent paths that lead us
there are giving us the next setof opportunities that we're
(30:13):
going to be able to take. Sodon't ever discount, like your
people in the audience. Don'tdiscount your past your past is
what's led you to exactly whereyou are now. And you can always
do new things next, you know,
Sarah Guthals (30:26):
yeah, I've had to remind myself to and I remind my
friends who want to do shifts intheir career that your resume,
you can never do, like, erasesomething off your resume. You
know, and I don't mean resume inlike the formal sense, but but
more the way you were justdescribing PJ, like, if you've
done something, you've donethat, and your experiences are
(30:48):
only additive, right? And, and Ireally, really want to hire you
just said PJ about havingopportunity. Like I, I was lucky
enough that my mom spoke fluentEnglish. And I was born and I
went to a school where we Ilearned Spanish, I actually was
(31:08):
taught math and history andscience, everything in Spanish,
from kindergarten, baby, but athome, we spoke English. And that
was a huge opportunity when Iknow, accessibility is often
talked about in terms of, youknow, able bodies or things like
that. But I, I, my line has it,if you put an English
(31:29):
dictionary, early EnglishDictionary of Spanish speakers,
that is not accessible to them.
You know, it's just, it's just abook with with words.
Unknown (31:38):
Mm hmm.
Sarah Guthals (31:40):
So I think about that everything I did, I can't
be perfect at it. But I reallydo drive for that. Because
watching my mom start communitycollege I was to and attending
classes with her taking examswith her with her ones, um, and,
(32:01):
and having her see what I do,and having her raise had, she
had that opportunity when shewas, you know, my age, she
probably would have been adeveloper, you know, because
she, she was interested in thatshe was doing some of that work
in these jobs. But then she hadme and she's, you know, chose to
(32:22):
have me and she's grateful tohave had me, but it meant
changing her career. And, youknow, it was the same with my
daughter, like, I had my mom notbeen positioned to be able to
retire and had I not been in aposition to be able to move up
with us know that I'd be able tocontinue working, right, because
(32:44):
who's gonna watch my three yearold during a pandemic, if both
of her parents are working, youknow, it's just so very much
circumstantial and and takingthe opportunities that you have.
But I think I think you touchedon something, which is you know,
if you feel like you're missingon one, because you you need to
(33:05):
or have chosen to do somethingelse, try to look towards all of
the paths that are opening up.
Because especially in today'sworld, we can create new roles
and we can create new careers.
Tic tock like with NFL ever,whatever your there's a way to
(33:26):
create that and say that andcoming from a very privileged
position now. But you know,like, it wasn't years ago when
we were living in our car hopingto share this McDonald's meal
together right and so thatwasn't just hard work but it was
(33:47):
making choices that made themost sense for that moment in
time.
Brandon Minnick (33:52):
Yeah Yeah, it's interesting life experience.
This is Will will dovetailthings I think have anything to
do with each other like for forme, I see satellite networks my
(34:15):
first event totally made my wayto Microsoft and C sharp and
behind but then what coupleAzure announced that they're
doing this whole terrestrialrestaurant round station in like
here they call it like I don'tknow we'll say add stuff like
(34:35):
that I'm like, actually knowabout that. And it just so
happens to be the only person onmy knows that stuff and like we
interviewed a couple people likeI was able to, that's a video
tutorials on that stuff.
Something that I never come inhandy. Yeah.
Pj Metz (34:58):
I love the idea of like, You're past that you're
like, Oh, well, I guess thatwasn't as useful. And then
suddenly it pops up. You'relike, oh, actually, I can help
with this.
Brandon Minnick (35:09):
Yeah, I It's basically like, yeah. It's like,
moving Huwag basically, like, itjust kind of turned into like,
like, tell you how satellitesworked or, like, I could point
(35:31):
to a satellite inside of thehouse and tell you what it's
for, like, point to our bellywhen all those antennas do. But
yeah, we're coming.
Pj Metz (35:41):
Neutral. Now that's actually useful. I love that.
So, Dr. G, you've got thisbackground. And like you said,
you got these three degrees, andyou're still a person who says,
like, you don't need a degree towork in computer science. And
you mentioned this, this Twitterkerfuffle, as it were the other
(36:05):
day. And what I saw, in thatkerfuffle, what made me really
excited to be a part of the techcommunity that I chose on
Twitter, the people that Ifollow was how everyone was
like, this isn't true. And theaim of what they were doing was
telling people outside, hey, ifyou're seeing this, it's wrong.
Like, you don't have to have adegree to do this. This person's
(36:29):
lying to you. If you want moreinformation, here's where you
can go. And that's what I'venoticed in the tech community.
Like I said, I chose to followthese tech people. It is
diverse. We've got drag queens,we've got Latino Latinas, and
we've got non binary like LatinX people, too. We have black
people, we have like tons, tonsof people from a variety of
(36:52):
backgrounds, people, young Ohworld, everybody. So like that
diversity in tech is, is myhonestly, is my experience with
tech right now. workingremotely. My tech community is
Twitter. Is tech always beenlike this. Is it changing? Is it
something that's been there andhas been hidden? What when we
(37:15):
talk about diversity in tech, iswhat are we talking about?
Sarah Guthals (37:21):
Yeah, no, that's a really good, good topic,
because it hasn't always beenthere. I remember listening to a
talk by this woman who, who,when she first started at this
tech company, they did not havewomen's restrooms. What? Um,
yeah. But yeah, so you know,nowadays will have your neutral
(37:44):
restrooms. I mean, when Istarted at GitHub, all of the
restrooms Well, not all, butthey had a gender neutral
restroom, which just had theirswhere the toilet was, because,
like, why not, that just, Iwould never anyways. And then
they also had restrooms, whereyou could be in one room by
yourself, you know, like, justmore inclusive, they had, you
know, rooms where parents couldgo and pumper breastfeeding, for
(38:08):
example, and, you know, all ofthat type of inclusion, I think
is important, where I see a lotof my energy. That was one of
three women in my life computerscience, and this was, you know,
not that long ago, beenrelatively, um, and it was, and
I was wanting to let x folks doit, there was not another woman.
(38:32):
So, you know, it was not super,like, diverse at the time. But
that's why I focused on like, Iwas a part of the team, one of
the first AP Computer SciencePrinciples, courses. And for
those of you who don't know whatthat is, AP is advanced Leamas
advanced placement here in theUnited States. And what that is,
(38:53):
it's basically the set ofcourses that are nationally
recognized, and there's acertain type of curriculum as
well as them you can take, andthen that exam, if you get a
certain score will qualify youfor college. And so it's
essentially college level works,that you can take in high
(39:13):
school. And the Computer SciencePrinciples was a course that we
were saying, was the computerscience that every single
graduating high school studentshould take prior to graduating
high school. And so it wasn't wewant him to be a computer
(39:33):
scientist, it was we wanteveryone to understand. We
actually wrote a paper calledthe cheating as the fourth are,
you should have a basicunderstanding of reading,
writing, arithmetic andcomputing. Right, just basic
understanding so that you canparticipate in the society. And
I focus a lot of my energy onthat next generation, because
(39:56):
the more we can introduce adiversity said, younger people
to the industry, the more likelyit is that we will have a
diverse industry. And then, ofcourse, it's not a pipeline
problem, it is not just that itis also supporting institutions
or programs that allow studentsto have the ability to focus on
(40:20):
that. You can't really do an acomputer science course when
your students don't haveinternet or computer at home to
do homework, for example. So webuilt a course that didn't have
homework, you did everythingduring class, because we had to
make sure that and then, youknow, similarly, a lot of the
(40:41):
schools only had access toChromebooks, not to any like,
you know, operating system whereyou can install things, right
and right, it had to work on thebrowser, you know, we went
through all of these iterations,we localize the content, you
know, and we work with folks onthat. And then it's inclusive
nature of the industry. Again,one of my first full time
(41:04):
positions in industry was thatGitHub engineering manager
position. When I left, I had ateam of 10, people were
literally I had more women ofcolor than men on my team, which
blew my mind, like, my mind. Ilove her. And it was because,
(41:28):
you know, GitHub wasn't as notperfect, but it was because, in
particular, Phil was an advocatefor hiring the right people for
the jobs. And he made it a pointto have a community of people,
his community of people bediverse. And so when he was
looking for the right person forthe job, he could look through a
(41:50):
diverse set of candidates, andthen that would yield the right
person. And it just so happened,that that He then looked
diverse, because it not likediversity is not a metric, it's
not something to check off it isit will happen if your community
(42:13):
is diverse, right? If you'relooking through diversity, and
so it's a lot, a lot, a lot ofpieces. But no, it wasn't always
person. And that's why I try tofocus on on that I, I got an
opportunity to partner withWarner Brothers on their base
gym, and making content aroundthat. And I advocated for that
(42:34):
out too. Because, you know, inmy mind, folks who really care
about basketball, might notrealize how much data science
machine learning goes into thesport, how much that goes into
choosing players for Team,choosing whether to bench
someone on a game, or have achoosing what you know what,
(42:55):
like, there's so much data thatgoes into it. And if you're
interested in basketball, andyou're also looking into what
careers you might want to gointo, that might be an interest
for you. And we don't have a lotof examples like that all of our
examples are like, Oh, how canyou make more money with this
sharing app? Like? You know, canwe have some other types of
(43:17):
examples? So I try to advocatefor for that type of story,
along with the technical pieces.
Brandon Minnick (43:29):
I look, sir, I have a question for you about
how you could redo the educationsystem. But first, let's get a
word from our sponsors.
Pj Metz (43:41):
Hi, if you're hearing my voice, that means you've been
listening to or watching eightbits with Brandon and PJ. And
we're here to talk to you aboutyour product. And how it can
help you in your life by to dowhatever your product does. So
(44:02):
if you're an avid listener ofthe show, or you watch us on
Twitch, then you will know thatyour product, your product is
right for you.
I gotta be honest, I can't waitto replace that with a real ad
(44:24):
that you can send in.
Sarah Guthals (44:29):
Feel like I feel like I might need to talk to you
about putting on for our for ourpodcast or something.
Pj Metz (44:36):
We accept money for that. Yes, absolutely. Actually,
that'd be fun. That'd be fun tohave you guys do that.
Brandon Minnick (44:46):
Yeah, I do want to talk about that. Real quick.
You mentioned kind of this, thesmall tweaks you make to make
learning more inclusive. But I'mcurious if you could just blow
up up the entire system, let'sjust start how would you design
say, a K through 12? Education?
That run?
Sarah Guthals (45:17):
You know, I, I don't, I don't think it can be a
magic wand, let's let's redo it.
And I would say the big thing isincorporating it into all of the
subjects. So, for example, andPJ you can, you can correct me,
but what I, what I've noticedabout, like, the other three
(45:40):
R's, the reading and writing,is, what seems to be effective
for a lot of students is showinghow the three parts of the
things that we say are importantfor learning, math, reading, and
writing, can come together. Andso, you know, one of my favorite
(46:02):
types of assignments that Iwould do as a child would be
when we mystory, we would writean alternate ending, and then
maybe there would be like, somefun, graphical, you know,
representation using theformulas of geometry to, to,
like plot something out on a, ona graph chart or something.
(46:24):
Those weren't backwards. Butthat's, that's part so. So for
example, maybe you have anassignment and, and Minecraft
Education Edition, by the way,which recently, is up to not
just formal educationinstitutions, but also after
(46:44):
school programs or things likethat
case where you could have likethis PV module, where maybe
you're learning about ancientEgypt. And then maybe there's a
story that goes along with it.
And then maybe you write yourown, you know, I remember them
like, like third, somethingwhere we would write as if we
(47:07):
were one of the pharaohs orsomething, right, write it,
write a letter, and then you goin Minecraft, and you create a
scene might have happened inthat time. And you use the
coding to to make itinteractive, or something,
right. So so the the point ofintroducing computing or
(47:29):
computer science to youngstudents, is helping them
understand how it can apply toany aspect. In fact, I taught a
course to high schoolers whowere in foster care. And so
these these, these fosterchildren came and they
opportunity to come to you, DSD,which was my school in San Diego
(47:51):
and take free computer sciencecourse. And some of them were
Yes, I got this, we're gonna dothis. I was using the app
inventor, MIT App Inventor,which allows you to build a
functional Google App that youcould actually either put on the
(48:11):
App Store or install on yourphone. This was many years ago.
So I'm not positive quiz now.
But I had this one grinchy.
Class, she did not care aboutthis. She you know, and
understandably, like, I don'tknow what her life was like, but
she had to choose just like, Ido not care. And rather than
(48:32):
what you have to, you know,whatever. I said, No problem.
Tell me what you're interestedin. And she was like, I want to
be a preschool teacher. So appsdon't matter to me, like I care.
Okay. And I said, what if, youknow, you want to be a preschool
teacher? And what if, you know,in preschool, you're teaching
(48:53):
kids about letters and shortsight words. I said, what if you
have a group of, you know, fivekids, but one of your kids is
struggling with some sightletter? What if you could that
night, build a very simple appto just help them with some
words, and all the app would do?
(49:15):
Show them the sight word. Andthen they could say it, and then
they could click it, and itwould record them say it, and
then they click the word and itwould, it would say you saying
the word right? To them, theycould click it, it would be too
and then they could recordthemselves. And then while
you're doing other activitieswith the other, or you know, a
(49:36):
kid that you have, that couldkid could be on, you know,
simple tablet, practicing thosebecause you can't let yourself
in to, but then you can helpthat student. And immediately
she stood up and she was like,now I see how me knowing a
little bit of coding might helpme achieve what I want to
(49:57):
achieve, which is to help youngchildren and And that's where I
think the priority ofintegrating computer science
education into all walks of lifeis, is the strongest, it's when
you can help people see thattool can help them they want to
achieve and not just be adeveloper for us.
Pj Metz (50:20):
Yeah, and that's so many people think of tech, they
just think of it as well, like,so you have to go and make an
app, or you have to go and dothis, but they don't see the
value of simply understandinghow things work. And to use kind
of a metaphor kind of analogy.
When I used to finish with myseniors, there was always like,
two weeks at the end of the yearfor seniors were like, there's
(50:40):
nothing for them to do, we'vefinished the curriculum, they've
got graduation in two weeks, andlike, there's no time to do
something new. So I would alwayshave like a little film unit in
my pocket where I was like, Hey,we're going to talk about the
language of film and how toanalyze film. And most of the
time, most of the kids arechecked out, it's senior year,
yada, yada, yada. And Iremember, like several kids
(51:04):
every year, it'd be like, Ican't watch films regularly
anymore, because I'm thinkingabout the choices made and
unlike Yeah, good. Because nowyou're not passively just taking
stuff in, you're activelyinvolved in something now. And I
think the same is true oftechnology, you shouldn't just
think back oh, well, this is howit works. Like you should know,
at least a little of least alittle about it. Dr. G, we got
(51:27):
to talk about like these amazingthings you're doing. First off,
there's that podcast you weretalking about earlier. And you
tell us about that podcast, andI'm gonna drop your link tree in
the chat. But tell us about thepodcast you're on.
Sarah Guthals (51:43):
Completely unrelated to tech. But a good
friend of your, your show
Pj Metz (51:49):
Chloe Condon, a creator of the show,
Sarah Guthals (51:52):
creator of the show, um, she and I found a love
a mutual love for 90s movies andTV shows. And in particular,
just the the fact that a lot ofthe themes from those shows
played out into who we aretoday. So we just have a podcast
where we, where we go over 90sTV shows movies. In fact, our
(52:14):
most recent episode at the timeof this show is featuring PJ
where we went over our firstDisney original film, which was
Johnny. So lots of lots of fun,bright and open. And yes, random
has also recorded and said withus, but that'll be coming in the
future. So yeah, I like to Ilike to just kind of branch out.
(52:36):
In fact, real quick. Johnnytsunami actually has a whole
storyline about tech, which I'dforgotten about, which is fun.
But yeah, I mean, in general, II've written a few books on
tech, my most recent one wasactually a few years now. But
that one was fun. Um, I willmake YouTube videos in
(52:58):
particular, I want to startmaking more videos in Spanish.
So feel free to head over to myYouTube channel, or any of my
social medias. And let me knowif you have interesting topics.
Especially if you want me to dothem. Tic TOCs every once in a
while I usually do like 50 ofthem and then disappear for a
week because and yeah, I talkedabout I go on like random,
(53:23):
little like, not aggressive butrants about parenting and my
three almost four year olddaughter is just amazing. And
it's fun and thoughts aboutthings I do with her. And yeah,
I'm just I'm basically at Dr.
Gonzalez on everything,including spacing, which is like
that new MySpace thing. Ihaven't haven't gotten into it
(53:44):
yet, but it's I'm excited aboutit
Pj Metz (53:49):
on the edge with Polly work. I haven't even heard a
space Hey,
Sarah Guthals (53:52):
literally like a MySpace recreation. I'm so good
about it. Yeah, so leave yoursports. The podcast. You should
listen to it. It's on prettymuch anywhere you can find
podcasts. And yeah. Me let meout and I'll probably want to
talk
Pj Metz (54:12):
right let's start at the time. The lag
correct there
Brandon Minnick (54:25):
I just feel like I'm on the moon. Sir. Thank
you so much for for joining uson the show today. I I
apologize. But I said it hasn'tbeen better. It's just so
fascinating listening to yourstories. Listen to your advice.
That takes work hard but lookout for those operative that
(54:47):
luck when it comes your way.
Keep open for all the other newopportunities that appear as you
go. You never lose those oldAfrica. This has been such a
blessing to everybody. Do gofollow Dr. G link tree that we
have in the comments. By theway, what else? Did I miss me
(55:08):
Jenna get
Pj Metz (55:13):
her on Tik Tok like she had heard about. It was talking
about are you afraid of the darklately on Tik Tok during episode
by episode, and it's beenfascinating to see these old
episodes that I rememberterrified me as a child, and now
are like, Oh, that's actuallystill a little scary.
(55:36):
And that's actually also anepisode of the podcast, also an
episode of the podcast. So yourscores, they did that with Joe
Carlson shout out, Joe. But yes,I want to reiterate everything
Brandon said and and to tell allof our viewers and listeners go
look up what Dr. Goebbels isdoing. There's never been as
prolific a person. And asamazing a person that I've
(55:57):
interacted with, like Brandon,you are really cool, but I the
fact that I got to meet Sarahgumbo, and that I can call her
someone that I'm collaboratingwith. And I know that you're
into horror. So moron, ourhorror project that we're gonna
make later. But um, any finalwords, final advice, any last
(56:18):
thing that you feel like youhave to say to everyone, Dr. G.
Sarah Guthals (56:21):
Um, first of all, thank you both for having me on
the show. It was an absolutepleasure, I'm so grateful to
know both of you as well. And toany listening. You know, I want
to say to you belong if you'reinterested in and I'm one
person, so I can't you know, beavailable to everyone. But
(56:42):
please feel free to reach out.
And if I if I have the band'sI'm always happy to respond. And
I think you know, even stage thethings that you're excited
about, and unless make space forthose, for those things to to
impact others, because it'slikely that you are not the only
one who believes in those thingsare excited about those things.
(57:05):
So let's do it together.
Absolutely. Fantastic.
Pj Metz (57:10):
Thank you for that message. Thank you Dr. Gumbo.
Thank you, Brandon for coming inall the way from Prague, slash
like the other side of Venus. Iknow it's rough over there. But
thank you all so much forlistening. And we will catch you
all next week on a bit
answer your question about how
Brandon Minnick (02:09):
PJ and I were just chatting back and forth.
intro music still Three minutes.
Three minutes, but now it's twominutes, buddy to another
episode of eight bits, your hostBrandon Minnick. And with me as
always, PJ Metz, PA, how's yourweek?
Pj Metz (02:28):
I'm PJ I'm having a great, great, great week. I am
currently in the middle of agreat internal event at GitLab
called contribute where all daylong we have talks from people
at get lab and team buildingactivities and there's a bunch
of video games that I've beenplaying from GitLab contribute
(02:49):
and one of them is like the gamebreakout Did you ever play like
break or Arkanoid for SuperNintendo is
Brandon Minnick (02:57):
the bar on the bottom and you like hit a ball
that
Pj Metz (03:03):
you got it? That's the exact exact one you're
absolutely correct. It is takingup so much of my time because I
had the highest score at likenine o'clock this morning. And
now I'm in third place and it'sdriving me crazy. So I have a
haircut appointment later today.
I'm pretty sure I'm gonna havemy laptop during my haircut just
like trying to get the highscore on that. So if I need to
(03:24):
send back my MacBook becausethere's a bunch of tiny hairs in
the keyboard. No one sayanything. Okay. All right.
That's a little secret.
Brandon Minnick (03:37):
Get that little kid. That compressed air spray.
Maybe even the Barbara willforget it.
Pj Metz (03:47):
Yeah, maybe I put some.
Put some talc powder on theretoo. That's good for the
computer, right?
Brandon Minnick (03:57):
Yeah, this is a straight razor on the keyboard.
Okay, yeah, it's
Pj Metz (04:01):
gotta have clean edges.
Gotta have clean edges on there.
No, no, no bevels just straightlines. So Brandon, I hate to
tell you this, but your yourimage is frozen for me. But I
don't know if that's true foreveryone. But please trust me.
Brandon's here live. This is notjust me cleverly. I assure you
(04:26):
he is here we are
Brandon Minnick (04:29):
doing something special. Today. I am actually in
Prague. I just landed a coupleout and hosted hosted remotely.
We're having all sorts oftechnical issues getting
started. So if it sounds likeI'm talking from the moon, and
(04:50):
because of audio delays,apologize in advance, but I am
here because there's an awesomeconference. Francis Ogg Has it
developed? It's called Oldconference I've spoken at, oh,
gosh, I think this will be myfourth year in a row. Last year
(05:12):
was remote. For conferences.
It's one of the biggest dotnetis actually I think it is the
dotnet conference in Central. Sothere's all sorts of good dotnet
goodies coming out. And not inPrague. Even if you're not in
Central, you can't swing by andsay hi, check out I think in the
comments up net, you can findall the talks live stream, make
(05:36):
sure you check it out.
Pj Metz (05:41):
It's what if you are
Brandon Minnick (05:43):
always been one of my favorite if
Pj Metz (05:44):
you are in Prague, swing by and say hi, to Brandon.
Absolutely. For our our hugevariety of listeners are
currently in Prague. So Brandon,you got the update conference
that you're talking about rightnow? You've got the dotnet
conference from last week. Didyou say earlier that that stuff
(06:07):
is now available that you canjust access the materials from
that now?
Brandon Minnick (06:14):
Yeah, that's right. Done last. Clean timing,
we always have it we will beMicrosoft. I didn't have
anything to do with this. ButMicrosoft releases Visual
Studio, the new version ofVisual Studio, new versions of
dotnet new versions of C sharp,all those goodies come out at
(06:35):
the same time. And that's whatdotnet comm all about? Those
videos have been in recorded youcan check them out at dotnet
comp.net.
Pj Metz (06:48):
Not a confusing URL and all y'all
Unknown (06:50):
E T.
Pj Metz (06:53):
C. I'm gonna throw it up on the screen.
Brandon Minnick (06:59):
I've got a playlist played in the
background. Yeah, it's goodstuff. If you're like me, like
to have just something going onbackground, a little bit of
white noise tests are compilingto look up and catch up. I've
grabbed those videos fromdotnet. And check them out. Then
(07:19):
know about oh, in the update.
Conference is all done. And allthe video. So I've got plenty of
videos just for the upcomingholiday season.
Pj Metz (07:32):
Fantastic. Listen, we got to have content to get us
through those. As I understandit in tech, December's kind of a
month where things happen, workhappens, but not really kind of
and people take time off. And asa teacher, I always do. Okay,
I'm getting my two weeks off. Ididn't know tech likes to do
(07:52):
that, too. So I'm super excitedthat I still get a winter break.
So yeah, like Brandon said, ifyou're still looking for
something, something when you'resitting around and you want to
keep those skills sharp or youwant to hear about what's coming
up, that's new, looking at oldconferences, especially dotnet
comm dotnet is a great, greatresource. Brandon, what? What do
(08:15):
we have today? What's What'stoday's show gonna be? Who are
we talking to?
Brandon Minnick (08:21):
A cool guest.
Spider through G. So, Mike, thesmart add on the show we've ever
had a PhD on the show before.
Microsoft will call thedeveloper relations development
(08:46):
gussied. Let's welcome to theshow. Dr. Bethells today. Hi.
Sarah Guthals (08:59):
Thank you, thank you for having me. Speaking of
like December time off, I'm kindof excited nervous. I'm getting
served through December 7. ButI'm like, oh, downtime. I'm just
gonna be like, you know, acouple of weeks while I'm
drugged up on painkillers,probably just watching things on
shutter. But then I can likejust having the random stuff is
(09:20):
gonna be awesome.
Pj Metz (09:24):
That downtime to actually like do stuff and like,
like, like, I've got downtime.
And it's funny because like,there used to be a very negative
way of looking at that. Like, Iremember when I was going to a
job that I was frustrated withor having a hard time with. I'd
be like, Man, what happened iflike my car just kind of hit
this concrete barrier. I wouldhave so much time to just do
whatever I wanted and like like
Sarah Guthals (09:53):
I used to think that so often like Oh, but you
know just like a little comawhere I can just sleep. Just
Just for a little while, like,you know,
Pj Metz (10:03):
nothing serious. And I don't mean. Yeah, but luckily
like, you know, like when youfind a job that you like a
little better, that's nice. Butlisten, the downtime you said
surgery is this. Is this aserious surgery or is it like
elected like, are you okay?
Sarah Guthals (10:21):
You kind of it's kind of huge i I'm getting knee
surgery, it's essentially like aknee reconstruction. So I found
that Reese, I've got nocartilage, like, left in my
knee. So really cool surgerythere. They took a biopsy of the
little tiny bit of cartilagethat's left and they regrew me
(10:42):
cartilage. Um, so yeah, I'mgoing to be getting cartilage in
my right knee. They're going tobe doing something with my tibia
and something with my patella. Idon't know, there's like three
major procedures happening. Andthen once I'm covered enough, my
partner should be getting adonor meniscus because that'd
take his time. And once he'srecovered enough, we'll look at
(11:05):
my left knee because you know,we just don't like leaving this
family.
Pj Metz (11:11):
Man, that's terrifying.
Oh,
Sarah Guthals (11:14):
yeah. Yeah, but you know
Brandon Minnick (11:21):
like the million dollar, man.
Sarah Guthals (11:24):
It'll be yes.
It's gonna be
Pj Metz (11:27):
I wish I had that sound ready to go that doo doo doo doo
doo. So I feel like we did adoc, Dr. Gotthold. I feel like,
we'd love to have you tell usabout yourself and your history
and why you are the way you areget as deep as you need to. But
(11:50):
tell us all about
Sarah Guthals (11:55):
1988. Actually, yesterday was my birthday. So
you know, mid 30s Over here. Butyeah, I mean, I am someone who
is passionate about education,how people learn and technology,
(12:16):
particularly about technology.
Because, you know, when I was incollege, I realized this is the
way to access a lot of people.
And with just a little bit ofunderstanding or knowledge or
skill. Folks can use this tool,technology being kind of a
(12:36):
general tool to improve theirlives, even if it's not at their
building or their industry, ifthey understand how to use it,
or how it's being used.
Hopefully understand how itimpacts their life and kind of
improve that. So yeah, I comefrom a single mother who is from
South America, what do I wish alittle country to Argentina, and
(13:00):
was when I was two, she startedcollege. She hadn't gotten to
college yet. And so my entireupbringing was centered around
the importance of education. Andshe ended up becoming a school
teacher. She just retired lastyear when I was able to move her
(13:21):
up to live with us so I'mexcited about that. And yeah,
education learning as it was wasmy special interest I would
pretend teach that was my
Pj Metz (13:39):
and I still wasn't getting good reviews
Sarah Guthals (13:44):
Yeah, and so I I loved it but I I always wanted
to be a medical doctor bigreason is I have asthma and I
would participate as a guineapig in asthma for medications.
So sir tech being over thecounter partially because I let
them give me sir tech
Pj Metz (14:08):
that sounds like you should be saying like I'm part
of the research that broadsearch act to the general public
in your LinkedIn
Sarah Guthals (14:18):
Yeah, Intertek over the counter and
prescription even I was like,wow, this is so cool. So I, I
love the idea of, of, of just,you know, Science and Learning
and, and, and research and allof that. And so, I wanted to be
(14:40):
a medical doctor, and then Icollege where I was working
three jobs to pay for it. And Ifailed my math and my chemistry
class. And so I called my momand I was like, Mom, no, like,
any college where I can explorenot so steep price and find some
(15:03):
things because what I reallylove the research, but I didn't
love the memorization and a lotof medicine is just knowing
things, and I don't care tomemorize. And so she was like
before, please, please, likethis university was was always
your dream just for the year. SoI did, and lucky, my very first
(15:28):
computer science teacher, whichI had no clue what computer
science was, was this woman,Beth Simon, who not only was a
woman, not only like, he wasinvested in teaching, but her
research in computer science washow people learn computer
science. So the most magicalIntroduction to Computer
(15:50):
Science, which is me being inthe lab, having my programs fail
supportively that even thetutors would have the solution
open next to it on the computerand couldn't figure out why mine
wasn't working sogreat about it is that the
computer would tell you whensomething went wrong, you know,
(16:11):
and, and, and if something didgo wrong, no one was dying. I
mean, you can get into tech workwhere people could die. And I'm
not in that part of because Ican handle that. But, but there
was it was a it was a logicgame, it was fine to figure
things out. And and it was justfun. It felt like a puzzle every
(16:32):
day. And so I switched majors, Iwas able to say I felt more
comfortable taking out loans andquitting my jobs because I felt
like I could get a job aftergraduating, not going to started
doing research in how peoplelearn. Computers ended up
staying for Masters and PhD atthat same It's Beth. She became
(16:55):
my advisor along with with BillGridWorld. And one of my best
friends ended up like rentingher house from her and she
moved.
Unknown (17:10):
That's awesome. You know, and just
Sarah Guthals (17:12):
I stayed and you know, there was like a holdings
I started a company while I wasdoing my code. We taught teach,
how to teach kids how to codebuilds a Minecraft modding soft
browser prior to Microsoft'sacquisition of Minecraft. wrote
(17:33):
some books, I contracted withvarious company names, including
git where I built like a GitHubfor kids under 13, which was
fun. I then was eight monthspregnant, and we decided to stop
that contracting project. Andquickly got a full time
job. You know, and yeah, I waslucky enough to work with the
(18:00):
incredible Phil hack, as mymanager. And I led a team of 10
in the world, building theGitHub integrations into Visual
Studio, code unity. And thenmoved over to Microsoft to
basically be a dev advocate. Andworking on data science machine
learning, I got the opportunityto like tie in Netflix movies
(18:25):
and Warner Brothers movies, thenarratives have been learning
and partner with on teachingpeople about data science as it
applies to, like landing on themoon. It's just want to fund
right. So yeah, I'm learning.
Pj Metz (18:41):
I got to echo what Brandon said at the beginning of
the show that like you areprolifically intelligent and
like you've done so much andlike I like it's intimidating to
hear how how wide a spectrum ofamazing things you've done. And
(19:02):
I'm just so glad to be like,like to be sitting here with
you. Because this is such a Ijust feel blessed and lucky to
be around you. So don't letanyone ever tell you you're not
amazing, cuz you're totallyamazing. Holy moly, Sarah.
Sarah Guthals (19:15):
I mean, I definitely appreciate that. I I
feel like though, you know, like15 years ago when I would hear
these people say, Oh, I alwaysknew what I was meant to do. And
I was like, that's not possible.
How could you know that? Irealized now that I've been very
lucky. And I believe I believethat everything that has
(19:36):
happened has been a combinationof luck. And being prepared to
take advantage of that luck,right? Like if love presents
itself to you and you're notready to just take advantage
that you're not lucky, right? Imean, PJ you I think it would be
kind of similar to you, right?
Like, you met some folks you metBrandon. You met Chloe and then
(19:59):
you took him You have that andyou were prepared to do that.
Right? So, yes. Was it luckythat you knew people? Yes. But
also, you were ready to grabthat and take it. And, and
that's honestly what it's been,it's been kind of prepping for
that lately knowing what I careabout and what it is I'm
(20:20):
passionate about and just takingchances. Yeah.
Brandon Minnick (20:27):
So I'd love to jump back to back back into the
education side, because a lot ofthe go don't the traditional
computer science, let alone themaster's degree? The D in it.
What I'm curious what whatopportunities opened up
progressed? Because you'reworking on your master's? Does
(20:55):
that like, why isn't your moveon HD? What big focus to pass?
Sarah Guthals (21:03):
Yeah. First, I want to say and I actually made
a tick tock about this, becausethere was some rhetoric
happening on Twitter aboutneeding to have a degree from
MIT be able to get in to me assomeone with a PhD in computer
science, who might my mydissertation was about designing
(21:25):
learning experiences for novicesin tech, you do not need to have
that degree. You could go watchmy tech talk about it. But so I
want to say that first andforemost, and honestly, what
kind of interesting about myjourney in particular, there is,
for example, I told you kind oflike the history of where I came
(21:46):
from, and I supplied thatengineering position at GitHub.
I had a recruiter tell me that Iwasn't qualified to be an
engineering manager. Andluckily, I was eight months
pregnant, and my mama bear cameout, and I pull back. And I
said, No, no, I think I am. Um,I mean, I ran a startup all the
(22:07):
way through main dollar revenue.
Before I left, I ran researchlabs, like I think I am. And
luckily, she pushed my resumeover to Phil and Phil was like,
yes, definitely, she'squalified, I definitely want to
interview her. Um, but, butwhat's interesting about kind of
each of the progressive degreesor our position had is that a
gave me an opportunity toexplore the parts of the
(22:31):
industry that aren't just thetechnical parts. So for when
you're when you're going throughyour master's degree, it's
basically like, undergradcourses, but hyper focused on
and so the difference between anundergrad degree where you are
also getting general education,is that you get to dive a little
(22:54):
bit deeper into the technicalproblems. And that's not
something you typically get todo an undergrad, you get to do a
little bit more open endedproblems, and maybe start
researching and cutting edgeresearch that's happening. So
that's kind of what that gaveme. During the PhDs kind of
complete opposite the courseworkis minimally important. It's
(23:16):
more about how you take ideas,explore something that no one
else has explored before. Toearn a PhD in any field, you
have to prove that you'vecontributed something to that.
Honestly, it's easier to get aPhD in computer science than in
math, imagine having tocontribute, to feel somatics I
(23:39):
just
Pj Metz (23:43):
don't want to talk too hard PhD, like literature where
you have a new
Sarah Guthals (23:50):
wild I think, but what that gives me is the
opportunity to think outside thebox about how, how I approach
solving a problem that I'mdefining the problem, right?
Like, I'm identifying theproblem, I'm defining why it's a
(24:11):
hard problem to solve. I mean,you know, what affects people
and then I'm, I'm the solutionfor it. And that was something
that then led to be a company,right? And then now with a
cutting you have to take thatkind of problem solving. And
also add in this businessaspect, you have to make money.
(24:32):
And it's not because we wereselfish and wanted money, it was
because to make like to employpeople we have money so that we
can employ people they, youknow, have us be their full time
job and not be worried that itwas going to disappear. And you
know, our customers can rely onthe fact that every summer every
(24:53):
you know after school programwould be and they plan on that
for the future and each oneposition I think it was a good
question, Brandon, because itpresented me with an aspect that
was kind of above the tech. Itwas above the the topic, and it
was more about how I'mapproaching that community. But,
(25:16):
but it also meant that singletime I've ever applied for a job
I've had to prove by that jobtool is something that could
match me, because I've never hada job title that really defines
what it is I do.
Pj Metz (25:34):
I think that's the hard part about titles in general.
Sarah Guthals (25:38):
Yeah, it is. It is.
Brandon Minnick (25:42):
But I've also say, and I don't know if the
company but a lot of companies Iworked at most of those so
usually started like a level onethen get promoted to level
three, and sometimes they changethe level three anyways, you
have level bulls and forbuddies, maybe curious and
(26:07):
getting the Masters getting thePhD. The couple buddies,
bachelor's degree, I experiencewill start to level what masters
give you a level two, and PhDwill start yet there is some
monetary but don't want to. Ifsomebody is looking for making
(26:30):
more money, and then wants to
Sarah Guthals (26:33):
go for it. Yeah, no, that's definitely true. I
will say that I, I pretty muchat the same level as friends who
did not get their degrees. Andin terms of like, the amount of
years it took me to get my viewwas very similar to the amount
of years it took them to getpromoted to the level that I
(26:53):
would then be hired at. Um, I'mgrateful for my journey, because
with my ADHD and autism with myinterest in learning and things
like I could not have surviveddoing a nine to five for those
years, like I needed to be ableto be jumping around 500 ways.
But But yeah, I mean, they'rethere and think that like higher
(27:17):
degrees or, or, or not even justthe degree but like alternative
jobs, or alternative experiencesalso give you to have more
creative roles, I would not havebeen qualified for position. If
I done like, soft, using VisualStudio and building with Visual
(27:39):
Studio, I had built, basicallycode editor and I built video
game in unity to teach kids howto code. So leading a team of
people who build or do VS codeand unity, Adam, like, did all
of that, basically, I wouldn'thave been very well qualified.
(28:01):
And it was hard for Phil to findsomeone who understood all of
these different, like Nuancecommunities, is very different
from a Visual Studio developer.
So that was kind of, like, youknow, a unique set of experience
that led me there. I love thataspect.
Pj Metz (28:22):
You have to under a second, what a lot of people
worry about is that their pastis somehow a hindrance to them
and where they're headed. Butyour your past has led you to
exactly where you are. And I sawan image today. And it was all
the paths that you could havetaken in the past, and they're
all over the place. But thenit's okay. But where are you
(28:44):
now, these are paths that youcannot take anymore. That's not
available to you anymore. Butwhat sits in front of you are an
equally number of infinitepaths, that your specific
journey has led you to have theopportunity for earlier, Dr.
Couples, you said it's like youtook advantage of a chance of
(29:04):
luck. And that's that's whatopportunity is. And that's why I
think when we talk about equity,and we talk about equal
opportunity, that's what we'retalking about. Not everyone has
the same set of opportunities.
So if we call it hard work andnot what it is, which is not
only did you have the luck to bethere, but you had the the
ability to say yes to it. WhenBrandon first said, PJ, I think
(29:28):
you should learn to code. I hada summer ahead of me of a
pandemic where I was literallygoing to be sitting at home and
doing nothing. I used to work asecond job as a teacher and I
was like, Well, I don't havethat. So I guess I'll learn the
code. So I had an opportunity tosay yes, because my
circumstances allowed me to. Soit's all about like, yes, taking
(29:52):
advantage of the opportunity,but you're someone with a PhD,
Brandon Someone with a CS degreeon someone with a degree in
reading poetry, like we havedifferent opportunities, but
we're finding that our, ourdifferent paths that lead us
there are giving us the next setof opportunities that we're
(30:13):
going to be able to take. Sodon't ever discount, like your
people in the audience. Don'tdiscount your past your past is
what's led you to exactly whereyou are now. And you can always
do new things next, you know,
Sarah Guthals (30:26):
yeah, I've had to remind myself to and I remind my
friends who want to do shifts intheir career that your resume,
you can never do, like, erasesomething off your resume. You
know, and I don't mean resume inlike the formal sense, but but
more the way you were justdescribing PJ, like, if you've
done something, you've donethat, and your experiences are
(30:48):
only additive, right? And, and Ireally, really want to hire you
just said PJ about havingopportunity. Like I, I was lucky
enough that my mom spoke fluentEnglish. And I was born and I
went to a school where we Ilearned Spanish, I actually was
(31:08):
taught math and history andscience, everything in Spanish,
from kindergarten, baby, but athome, we spoke English. And that
was a huge opportunity when Iknow, accessibility is often
talked about in terms of, youknow, able bodies or things like
that. But I, I, my line has it,if you put an English
(31:29):
dictionary, early EnglishDictionary of Spanish speakers,
that is not accessible to them.
You know, it's just, it's just abook with with words.
Unknown (31:38):
Mm hmm.
Sarah Guthals (31:40):
So I think about that everything I did, I can't
be perfect at it. But I reallydo drive for that. Because
watching my mom start communitycollege I was to and attending
classes with her taking examswith her with her ones, um, and,
(32:01):
and having her see what I do,and having her raise had, she
had that opportunity when shewas, you know, my age, she
probably would have been adeveloper, you know, because
she, she was interested in thatshe was doing some of that work
in these jobs. But then she hadme and she's, you know, chose to
(32:22):
have me and she's grateful tohave had me, but it meant
changing her career. And, youknow, it was the same with my
daughter, like, I had my mom notbeen positioned to be able to
retire and had I not been in aposition to be able to move up
with us know that I'd be able tocontinue working, right, because
(32:44):
who's gonna watch my three yearold during a pandemic, if both
of her parents are working, youknow, it's just so very much
circumstantial and and takingthe opportunities that you have.
But I think I think you touchedon something, which is you know,
if you feel like you're missingon one, because you you need to
(33:05):
or have chosen to do somethingelse, try to look towards all of
the paths that are opening up.
Because especially in today'sworld, we can create new roles
and we can create new careers.
Tic tock like with NFL ever,whatever your there's a way to
(33:26):
create that and say that andcoming from a very privileged
position now. But you know,like, it wasn't years ago when
we were living in our car hopingto share this McDonald's meal
together right and so thatwasn't just hard work but it was
(33:47):
making choices that made themost sense for that moment in
time.
Brandon Minnick (33:52):
Yeah Yeah, it's interesting life experience.
This is Will will dovetailthings I think have anything to
do with each other like for forme, I see satellite networks my
(34:15):
first event totally made my wayto Microsoft and C sharp and
behind but then what coupleAzure announced that they're
doing this whole terrestrialrestaurant round station in like
here they call it like I don'tknow we'll say add stuff like
(34:35):
that I'm like, actually knowabout that. And it just so
happens to be the only person onmy knows that stuff and like we
interviewed a couple people likeI was able to, that's a video
tutorials on that stuff.
Something that I never come inhandy. Yeah.
Pj Metz (34:58):
I love the idea of like, You're past that you're
like, Oh, well, I guess thatwasn't as useful. And then
suddenly it pops up. You'relike, oh, actually, I can help
with this.
Brandon Minnick (35:09):
Yeah, I It's basically like, yeah. It's like,
moving Huwag basically, like, itjust kind of turned into like,
like, tell you how satellitesworked or, like, I could point
(35:31):
to a satellite inside of thehouse and tell you what it's
for, like, point to our bellywhen all those antennas do. But
yeah, we're coming.
Pj Metz (35:41):
Neutral. Now that's actually useful. I love that.
So, Dr. G, you've got thisbackground. And like you said,
you got these three degrees, andyou're still a person who says,
like, you don't need a degree towork in computer science. And
you mentioned this, this Twitterkerfuffle, as it were the other
(36:05):
day. And what I saw, in thatkerfuffle, what made me really
excited to be a part of the techcommunity that I chose on
Twitter, the people that Ifollow was how everyone was
like, this isn't true. And theaim of what they were doing was
telling people outside, hey, ifyou're seeing this, it's wrong.
Like, you don't have to have adegree to do this. This person's
(36:29):
lying to you. If you want moreinformation, here's where you
can go. And that's what I'venoticed in the tech community.
Like I said, I chose to followthese tech people. It is
diverse. We've got drag queens,we've got Latino Latinas, and
we've got non binary like LatinX people, too. We have black
people, we have like tons, tonsof people from a variety of
(36:52):
backgrounds, people, young Ohworld, everybody. So like that
diversity in tech is, is myhonestly, is my experience with
tech right now. workingremotely. My tech community is
Twitter. Is tech always beenlike this. Is it changing? Is it
something that's been there andhas been hidden? What when we
(37:15):
talk about diversity in tech, iswhat are we talking about?
Sarah Guthals (37:21):
Yeah, no, that's a really good, good topic,
because it hasn't always beenthere. I remember listening to a
talk by this woman who, who,when she first started at this
tech company, they did not havewomen's restrooms. What? Um,
yeah. But yeah, so you know,nowadays will have your neutral
(37:44):
restrooms. I mean, when Istarted at GitHub, all of the
restrooms Well, not all, butthey had a gender neutral
restroom, which just had theirswhere the toilet was, because,
like, why not, that just, Iwould never anyways. And then
they also had restrooms, whereyou could be in one room by
yourself, you know, like, justmore inclusive, they had, you
know, rooms where parents couldgo and pumper breastfeeding, for
(38:08):
example, and, you know, all ofthat type of inclusion, I think
is important, where I see a lotof my energy. That was one of
three women in my life computerscience, and this was, you know,
not that long ago, beenrelatively, um, and it was, and
I was wanting to let x folks doit, there was not another woman.
(38:32):
So, you know, it was not super,like, diverse at the time. But
that's why I focused on like, Iwas a part of the team, one of
the first AP Computer SciencePrinciples, courses. And for
those of you who don't know whatthat is, AP is advanced Leamas
advanced placement here in theUnited States. And what that is,
(38:53):
it's basically the set ofcourses that are nationally
recognized, and there's acertain type of curriculum as
well as them you can take, andthen that exam, if you get a
certain score will qualify youfor college. And so it's
essentially college level works,that you can take in high
(39:13):
school. And the Computer SciencePrinciples was a course that we
were saying, was the computerscience that every single
graduating high school studentshould take prior to graduating
high school. And so it wasn't wewant him to be a computer
(39:33):
scientist, it was we wanteveryone to understand. We
actually wrote a paper calledthe cheating as the fourth are,
you should have a basicunderstanding of reading,
writing, arithmetic andcomputing. Right, just basic
understanding so that you canparticipate in the society. And
I focus a lot of my energy onthat next generation, because
(39:56):
the more we can introduce adiversity said, younger people
to the industry, the more likelyit is that we will have a
diverse industry. And then, ofcourse, it's not a pipeline
problem, it is not just that itis also supporting institutions
or programs that allow studentsto have the ability to focus on
(40:20):
that. You can't really do an acomputer science course when
your students don't haveinternet or computer at home to
do homework, for example. So webuilt a course that didn't have
homework, you did everythingduring class, because we had to
make sure that and then, youknow, similarly, a lot of the
(40:41):
schools only had access toChromebooks, not to any like,
you know, operating system whereyou can install things, right
and right, it had to work on thebrowser, you know, we went
through all of these iterations,we localize the content, you
know, and we work with folks onthat. And then it's inclusive
nature of the industry. Again,one of my first full time
(41:04):
positions in industry was thatGitHub engineering manager
position. When I left, I had ateam of 10, people were
literally I had more women ofcolor than men on my team, which
blew my mind, like, my mind. Ilove her. And it was because,
(41:28):
you know, GitHub wasn't as notperfect, but it was because, in
particular, Phil was an advocatefor hiring the right people for
the jobs. And he made it a pointto have a community of people,
his community of people bediverse. And so when he was
looking for the right person forthe job, he could look through a
(41:50):
diverse set of candidates, andthen that would yield the right
person. And it just so happened,that that He then looked
diverse, because it not likediversity is not a metric, it's
not something to check off it isit will happen if your community
(42:13):
is diverse, right? If you'relooking through diversity, and
so it's a lot, a lot, a lot ofpieces. But no, it wasn't always
person. And that's why I try tofocus on on that I, I got an
opportunity to partner withWarner Brothers on their base
gym, and making content aroundthat. And I advocated for that
(42:34):
out too. Because, you know, inmy mind, folks who really care
about basketball, might notrealize how much data science
machine learning goes into thesport, how much that goes into
choosing players for Team,choosing whether to bench
someone on a game, or have achoosing what you know what,
(42:55):
like, there's so much data thatgoes into it. And if you're
interested in basketball, andyou're also looking into what
careers you might want to gointo, that might be an interest
for you. And we don't have a lotof examples like that all of our
examples are like, Oh, how canyou make more money with this
sharing app? Like? You know, canwe have some other types of
(43:17):
examples? So I try to advocatefor for that type of story,
along with the technical pieces.
Brandon Minnick (43:29):
I look, sir, I have a question for you about
how you could redo the educationsystem. But first, let's get a
word from our sponsors.
Pj Metz (43:41):
Hi, if you're hearing my voice, that means you've been
listening to or watching eightbits with Brandon and PJ. And
we're here to talk to you aboutyour product. And how it can
help you in your life by to dowhatever your product does. So
(44:02):
if you're an avid listener ofthe show, or you watch us on
Twitch, then you will know thatyour product, your product is
right for you.
I gotta be honest, I can't waitto replace that with a real ad
(44:24):
that you can send in.
Sarah Guthals (44:29):
Feel like I feel like I might need to talk to you
about putting on for our for ourpodcast or something.
Pj Metz (44:36):
We accept money for that. Yes, absolutely. Actually,
that'd be fun. That'd be fun tohave you guys do that.
Brandon Minnick (44:46):
Yeah, I do want to talk about that. Real quick.
You mentioned kind of this, thesmall tweaks you make to make
learning more inclusive. But I'mcurious if you could just blow
up up the entire system, let'sjust start how would you design
say, a K through 12? Education?
That run?
Sarah Guthals (45:17):
You know, I, I don't, I don't think it can be a
magic wand, let's let's redo it.
And I would say the big thing isincorporating it into all of the
subjects. So, for example, andPJ you can, you can correct me,
but what I, what I've noticedabout, like, the other three
(45:40):
R's, the reading and writing,is, what seems to be effective
for a lot of students is showinghow the three parts of the
things that we say are importantfor learning, math, reading, and
writing, can come together. Andso, you know, one of my favorite
(46:02):
types of assignments that Iwould do as a child would be
when we mystory, we would writean alternate ending, and then
maybe there would be like, somefun, graphical, you know,
representation using theformulas of geometry to, to,
like plot something out on a, ona graph chart or something.
(46:24):
Those weren't backwards. Butthat's, that's part so. So for
example, maybe you have anassignment and, and Minecraft
Education Edition, by the way,which recently, is up to not
just formal educationinstitutions, but also after
(46:44):
school programs or things likethat
case where you could have likethis PV module, where maybe
you're learning about ancientEgypt. And then maybe there's a
story that goes along with it.
And then maybe you write yourown, you know, I remember them
like, like third, somethingwhere we would write as if we
(47:07):
were one of the pharaohs orsomething, right, write it,
write a letter, and then you goin Minecraft, and you create a
scene might have happened inthat time. And you use the
coding to to make itinteractive, or something,
right. So so the the point ofintroducing computing or
(47:29):
computer science to youngstudents, is helping them
understand how it can apply toany aspect. In fact, I taught a
course to high schoolers whowere in foster care. And so
these these, these fosterchildren came and they
opportunity to come to you, DSD,which was my school in San Diego
(47:51):
and take free computer sciencecourse. And some of them were
Yes, I got this, we're gonna dothis. I was using the app
inventor, MIT App Inventor,which allows you to build a
functional Google App that youcould actually either put on the
(48:11):
App Store or install on yourphone. This was many years ago.
So I'm not positive quiz now.
But I had this one grinchy.
Class, she did not care aboutthis. She you know, and
understandably, like, I don'tknow what her life was like, but
she had to choose just like, Ido not care. And rather than
(48:32):
what you have to, you know,whatever. I said, No problem.
Tell me what you're interestedin. And she was like, I want to
be a preschool teacher. So appsdon't matter to me, like I care.
Okay. And I said, what if, youknow, you want to be a preschool
teacher? And what if, you know,in preschool, you're teaching
(48:53):
kids about letters and shortsight words. I said, what if you
have a group of, you know, fivekids, but one of your kids is
struggling with some sightletter? What if you could that
night, build a very simple appto just help them with some
words, and all the app would do?
(49:15):
Show them the sight word. Andthen they could say it, and then
they could click it, and itwould record them say it, and
then they click the word and itwould, it would say you saying
the word right? To them, theycould click it, it would be too
and then they could recordthemselves. And then while
you're doing other activitieswith the other, or you know, a
(49:36):
kid that you have, that couldkid could be on, you know,
simple tablet, practicing thosebecause you can't let yourself
in to, but then you can helpthat student. And immediately
she stood up and she was like,now I see how me knowing a
little bit of coding might helpme achieve what I want to
(49:57):
achieve, which is to help youngchildren and And that's where I
think the priority ofintegrating computer science
education into all walks of lifeis, is the strongest, it's when
you can help people see thattool can help them they want to
achieve and not just be adeveloper for us.
Pj Metz (50:20):
Yeah, and that's so many people think of tech, they
just think of it as well, like,so you have to go and make an
app, or you have to go and dothis, but they don't see the
value of simply understandinghow things work. And to use kind
of a metaphor kind of analogy.
When I used to finish with myseniors, there was always like,
two weeks at the end of the yearfor seniors were like, there's
(50:40):
nothing for them to do, we'vefinished the curriculum, they've
got graduation in two weeks, andlike, there's no time to do
something new. So I would alwayshave like a little film unit in
my pocket where I was like, Hey,we're going to talk about the
language of film and how toanalyze film. And most of the
time, most of the kids arechecked out, it's senior year,
yada, yada, yada. And Iremember, like several kids
(51:04):
every year, it'd be like, Ican't watch films regularly
anymore, because I'm thinkingabout the choices made and
unlike Yeah, good. Because nowyou're not passively just taking
stuff in, you're activelyinvolved in something now. And I
think the same is true oftechnology, you shouldn't just
think back oh, well, this is howit works. Like you should know,
at least a little of least alittle about it. Dr. G, we got
(51:27):
to talk about like these amazingthings you're doing. First off,
there's that podcast you weretalking about earlier. And you
tell us about that podcast, andI'm gonna drop your link tree in
the chat. But tell us about thepodcast you're on.
Sarah Guthals (51:43):
Completely unrelated to tech. But a good
friend of your, your show
Pj Metz (51:49):
Chloe Condon, a creator of the show,
Sarah Guthals (51:52):
creator of the show, um, she and I found a love
a mutual love for 90s movies andTV shows. And in particular,
just the the fact that a lot ofthe themes from those shows
played out into who we aretoday. So we just have a podcast
where we, where we go over 90sTV shows movies. In fact, our
(52:14):
most recent episode at the timeof this show is featuring PJ
where we went over our firstDisney original film, which was
Johnny. So lots of lots of fun,bright and open. And yes, random
has also recorded and said withus, but that'll be coming in the
future. So yeah, I like to Ilike to just kind of branch out.
(52:36):
In fact, real quick. Johnnytsunami actually has a whole
storyline about tech, which I'dforgotten about, which is fun.
But yeah, I mean, in general, II've written a few books on
tech, my most recent one wasactually a few years now. But
that one was fun. Um, I willmake YouTube videos in
(52:58):
particular, I want to startmaking more videos in Spanish.
So feel free to head over to myYouTube channel, or any of my
social medias. And let me knowif you have interesting topics.
Especially if you want me to dothem. Tic TOCs every once in a
while I usually do like 50 ofthem and then disappear for a
week because and yeah, I talkedabout I go on like random,
(53:23):
little like, not aggressive butrants about parenting and my
three almost four year olddaughter is just amazing. And
it's fun and thoughts aboutthings I do with her. And yeah,
I'm just I'm basically at Dr.
Gonzalez on everything,including spacing, which is like
that new MySpace thing. Ihaven't haven't gotten into it
(53:44):
yet, but it's I'm excited aboutit
Pj Metz (53:49):
on the edge with Polly work. I haven't even heard a
space Hey,
Sarah Guthals (53:52):
literally like a MySpace recreation. I'm so good
about it. Yeah, so leave yoursports. The podcast. You should
listen to it. It's on prettymuch anywhere you can find
podcasts. And yeah. Me let meout and I'll probably want to
talk
Pj Metz (54:12):
right let's start at the time. The lag
correct there
Brandon Minnick (54:25):
I just feel like I'm on the moon. Sir. Thank
you so much for for joining uson the show today. I I
apologize. But I said it hasn'tbeen better. It's just so
fascinating listening to yourstories. Listen to your advice.
That takes work hard but lookout for those operative that
(54:47):
luck when it comes your way.
Keep open for all the other newopportunities that appear as you
go. You never lose those oldAfrica. This has been such a
blessing to everybody. Do gofollow Dr. G link tree that we
have in the comments. By theway, what else? Did I miss me
(55:08):
Jenna get
Pj Metz (55:13):
her on Tik Tok like she had heard about. It was talking
about are you afraid of the darklately on Tik Tok during episode
by episode, and it's beenfascinating to see these old
episodes that I rememberterrified me as a child, and now
are like, Oh, that's actuallystill a little scary.
(55:36):
And that's actually also anepisode of the podcast, also an
episode of the podcast. So yourscores, they did that with Joe
Carlson shout out, Joe. But yes,I want to reiterate everything
Brandon said and and to tell allof our viewers and listeners go
look up what Dr. Goebbels isdoing. There's never been as
prolific a person. And asamazing a person that I've
(55:57):
interacted with, like Brandon,you are really cool, but I the
fact that I got to meet Sarahgumbo, and that I can call her
someone that I'm collaboratingwith. And I know that you're
into horror. So moron, ourhorror project that we're gonna
make later. But um, any finalwords, final advice, any last
(56:18):
thing that you feel like youhave to say to everyone, Dr. G.
Sarah Guthals (56:21):
Um, first of all, thank you both for having me on
the show. It was an absolutepleasure, I'm so grateful to
know both of you as well. And toany listening. You know, I want
to say to you belong if you'reinterested in and I'm one
person, so I can't you know, beavailable to everyone. But
(56:42):
please feel free to reach out.
And if I if I have the band'sI'm always happy to respond. And
I think you know, even stage thethings that you're excited
about, and unless make space forthose, for those things to to
impact others, because it'slikely that you are not the only
one who believes in those thingsare excited about those things.
(57:05):
So let's do it together.
Absolutely. Fantastic.
Pj Metz (57:10):
Thank you for that message. Thank you Dr. Gumbo.
Thank you, Brandon for coming inall the way from Prague, slash
like the other side of Venus. Iknow it's rough over there. But
thank you all so much forlistening. And we will catch you
all next week on a bit
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