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Unlock the secrets of early recording technology with our special guests Wyatt, Joe, and Tracy, as we journey through the groundbreaking era of the phonograph. Discover how the laborious process of creating wax cylinders and the technological marvel of electroplating turned phonograph recordings into a worldwide phenomenon. We promise insights into the lives of iconic artists like John McCormack and the fascinating story of how their musical successes translated into financial triumphs.
For those with a passion for history and collecting, we share personal tales of acquiring and restoring antique phonographs, offering expert tips on navigating auctions and identifying valuable models like the Edison Fireside and Triumph. Listen as we emphasize the joy and mental health benefits that come from immersing oneself in this captivating hobby. Our conversation also explores the evolving market value of these historical machines, providing guidance on spotting rare finds at unbeatable prices while enjoying the thrill of preserving these auditory treasures.
We also examine the legacy of titans like Thomas Edison, drawing surprising parallels between his innovative practices and the origins of modern-day music genres like hip-hop. From grassroots cylinder machines to early DJs, explore the unexpected connections that have shaped the music industry. As we expand our podcast to reach a global audience, we are excited to bring you supplemental episodes in audio and video formats. Engage with us, share your feedback, and join us on this extraordinary auditory adventure.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome back to A Better Life,
new York.
I bring you back to part two ofour conversation with Wyatt,
joe and Tracy.
And now part two.
And what's interesting andcorrect me when I'm wrong, guys
(00:20):
is those cylinders areoriginally recorded.
So everything's realized thatthere are no microphones, right,
everything's recordedacoustically.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, they were all recorded through a megaphone.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yeah, caruso, what his major voice are singing
through these megaphones and theinstruments have megaphones.
There was one master made andthey only made for a long time
individual cylinders from themaster, one at a time, isn't
that correct.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm going to go back a little bit further.
At the very beginning of thecylinder era, when wax cylinder
records were being sold to thepublic, the company would have a
performer come in and theywould line anywhere from 10 to
20 machines in front of thatperformer and that performer
would record for about two and ahalf minutes their piece, while
(01:10):
all of these machines wererecording simultaneously.
But then you only get 20 or 25records.
So what does the performer do?
When that session's over?
They do it again.
Performer do when thatsession's over, they do it again
.
And some performers would recorda dozen or a couple dozen times
a day to produce records, andeach record was an original.
(01:33):
But what they did not?
To get too technical, theywould put graphite on these wax
records and then they wouldelectroplate them with copper
and you would thus create a moldand you could pour wax into
that mold and, yes, as you said,take one master record and from
(01:55):
that one single record, pressor pour thousands of them.
Now, on one hand, the performeris not getting paid for 25
recording sessions in a day,they're only getting paid for
one.
But for the manufacturer that'sdistributing these records,
that's money in the bank andthey started mass-producing
(02:17):
records.
The phonograph just exploded.
It was a worldwide phenomenonand made these people famous.
Oh, worldwide fame and a clock.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Does that her name?
And I'm a glue, I'm a she.
What?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
a voice she became like the first famous woman
singer yes, uh, and who's theother one, the the first big
singer?
Now, pardon, ada, not Ada Jones, actually it was John McCormack
.
He was, I think, the firstphonograph performer.
(02:52):
Oh, I hope this is correct.
He was the first one to make$100,000.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Really.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
As a performer and $100,000 back in the teens early
20s was a lot of money and$100,000 back in the teens early
20s was a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
It's funny because I just I bought a whole bunch of
records at auction, maybe 300.
They're all still in boxes andthe guy that saw that, the
auction, that shipped it firstof all.
They must have broke at least30 or 40 of them.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, they're just baked clay discs with a little
shellac mixed in.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I know but they didn't really pack it, they just
filled the box.
They didn't put anything aroundit and I complained because he
charged me a lot of money toship it.
But I bought it real cheap.
So who cares?
But I just get mad at it.
I didn't see anything therethat would have blew my mind
stuff I probably already hadanyway.
But there was a lot of that erarecording at least 101 box it's
(03:52):
probably more than three now,but I haven't gone through them
all yet.
I went through one box lastnight and Joe and I have been
using an ultrasonic cleaner toclean the records.
I had found one.
I started using it.
I couldn't believe it.
I called him, sent him apicture of it and he said what
is it?
He bought it right away andwe've been going through our
(04:14):
collection.
I have about 1,078, so I'mstill in the middle of it.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
It certainly is a lot better than one by one, which
Tracy and I started doing backin the day.
We only got through about 50when we gave up.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
The ultrasonic cleaner does seven to 10 at a
time, and so we took three weeksand all of our records are now
clean.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, thank you for that, by the way.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
I was sick all week so I cleaned a lot of records
and I have, I don't know, threeor 400 diamond discs and I have
no idea how much cylinders.
I haven't gotten to them yet.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Would you like three or 400 more?
Oh, so don't put the diamonddisc in the cleaner.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I'll sit back down now.
I have one, two, I have one two.
I have three diamond discplayers.
I have I don't know what thatone is A C-150 maybe, and then I
have a Chalet.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
For all of you listeners out there that know
all of the model designationsevery floor model or table model
that was made not that was made, but they had different
furniture designs.
So if you're familiar with thesheraton design or the
chippendale design, and they haddifferent designations for the
model and the chalet was atabletop cabinet that was made
(05:36):
out of gumwood and it playsdiamond disc records which we
can talk about today, tonight orsome other.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
The chalet is interesting because it was meant
to like bring to a place thatit would be loud enough for
people to dance in a room.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, it was a small enough cabinet, it was priced
right and you could put it on atable.
It didn't take up floor spaceand it didn't weigh a lot, so
you could move it from one roomto another as needed.
Oh, it weighs a lot.
Oh, when I say a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So you could move it from one room to another as
needed.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Oh, it weighs a lot.
Oh, when I say a lot, like afloor model could weigh 250
pounds, Right, but that one'sprobably more in line with 70 or
75 pounds, which is light inthis.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
And then I have the small A100, which is a small
floor model that I drove out.
Some lady had it, she called me.
She says I want to get rid ofit.
It works fine.
It had been refinished, butwhen I took the refinish off it
was a new life.
The wood, which is like a cream, that's like a cleaner.
(06:35):
It looks unbelievable.
It's missing two little cloverleaves.
Actually, what happened wasthey'd lost a crank and they
bought a replaceable crank,except it couldn't fit in the
hole with the, the whole plateover it.
I don't know what you callthose then grommet, yeah it's
(06:56):
scutcheon, scutcheon thank you.
It couldn't fit with thescutcheon so they took the
scutcheon off.
Yeah, when I found an originalhammer and an original scutcheon
and replaced it and now itlooks fantastic and it works
well and it plays great and it'sin my office because it isn't
as big as everything else In myoffice.
I have a gramophone W that Ibought from Joe, with a big
(07:22):
nickel plated horn.
I have a I try to have a littlecross section of everything.
I have the XX80 Petrola.
On top I have an Edisonstandard banner with a big red
horn.
I have the Columbia gramophonetable model, the one I bought
(07:45):
from you, right?
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Yes, what is that a?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
100 or 150 or something.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
It's a tabletop with the oak finish and, dear
listener, this is exactly whatcollectors like Steve Joe and I
sound like when we're talking toeach other and we talk in codes
.
It's a C250 with a doublespring motor, with the side
mounted crank, and it's in thegold finish in the oak cabinet,
and there was an option formahogany, but that was, you know
(08:13):
, ten dollars more, which was alot of money back in the day.
Or did you have an edisontriumph?
Yeah, I got a triumph.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
it's a mahogany finish with a triple spring
motor and after a while, youstart to sound like us you know,
I've been criticized because myI've been criticized on our
facebook page by very famouspeople, collectors, or at least
famous people in the society,who have accused me of having
(08:38):
more machines than knowledge.
And I admit I have moremachines than knowledge.
But tough.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
The knowledge will come in plenty of time.
Don't worry about it.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Our attitude needs to change too, because we need to
welcome more people into thehobby Me too.
Even today, I still getnegativity in some of these
internet groups from people thatthey take it upon themselves to
have to correct me.
And I'm not infallible.
I make mistakes, I'll say thewrong thing sometimes, and
(09:14):
instead of being nasty, it'sbetter to be kind and just say
oh no, that isn't opinion gear,that is a spur gear, and I'll be
like Thank you for helping me,thank you for correcting me on
that.
I appreciate your help.
Isn't that better than?
Oh, you said it was a spur gear?
It's a pinion gear and it's notthe first pinion gear.
It's the second pinion gear andit's called a spring barrel.
(09:37):
It's not called a spring box orwhatever.
Canister, canister, a can, it'sokay, I get it.
I get it.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
That's one thing that got.
Joe and I really into it is.
We were lucky enough to meetthe right people early that were
willing to help and teach uswhy, it being one of the main
ones and it was without judgmentand it was just no.
Let me teach these new peopleabout the hobby and the right
terminology and how to work onthings and fix things, and
(10:11):
without that we really probablywouldn't be as into it as we are
, because we were welcomed withopen arms, and that's a big
thing.
In any hobby right.
In any hobby right.
If you want to keep it going,especially something like this
that is going out of style ornot really out there, you have
(10:32):
to welcome new people with openarms and help them learn it,
understand it and appreciate itin a manner that isn't going to
be a turnoff.
And oh, I don't want to be apart of that because I don't
understand it so clearly.
I can't be a part of it.
It's not an exclusion.
The more people we include, themore we keep this history
around and the more we educatepeople in the future.
I mean, joe and I are learningevery day.
(10:55):
I think all of us learnsomething periodically about it.
Wyatt may be less than the restof us, he's still learning.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Every day I learn something.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
There's always something more to learn that we
don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
I meet collectors online and learn about them and
have conversations with themPeople that have one or two or
three machines and then maybehave bought and sold other
machines but only have a coupleand really concentrate on the
music or concentrate on therecordings, and I find that
admirable.
I wish I could do that, but I'mbeyond that it's part of the
(11:26):
ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
You're going to have people that just focus on the
records.
You're going to have peoplelike me that focus on the
machines and the technology.
You're going to have peoplethat call them I call them
finders.
All they do is find and sell tous collectors.
I find resellers all the time.
And then you have restorers,like Joe and Tracy, that also
buy and sell machines.
(11:47):
And the ecosystem has manyparts and we even have bottom
feeders the guys that go andthey buy these $25 machines and
they bring it home because it'swithin their budget and they'll
take months or weeks or days tofix it and make it functional
and it's a great feeling.
That's the feedback, that's the.
(12:08):
Was it the dopamine hit?
Is that right?
It's.
That's how we get our fix.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
My thought is preserving the history of it all
.
We clearly I bought a lot of agentleman's collection who
recently passed away the lastcouple of years, and his wife
had this massive collection.
He lived in New Jersey.
He wasn't one of the more knowncollectors that passed away but
(12:36):
he was very close to him and hehas a massive collection in his
little house in new jerseywhere he collected.
I mentioned it to you, wyatt,he collected train whistles and
bells, fire whistles and bellsand I don't know how the house
(12:56):
didn't collapse upon itself hehad these things that took five
people to bring into the house,the big, massive bells from the
top of a diesel engine.
And he had a good friend thatwas a very big collector in New
Jersey and we all know who I'mtalking about.
He'll go on and mention and hewould buy and trade things with
(13:19):
him.
So I went to the house and Imissed on a lot of good stuff.
But I bought a lot of goodstuff too, and there's still
horns and cranes and things shehas.
I bought boxes of cylindersfrom her Blue ones, Ambarola I
don't want to say Ambarola aswell, and my production's all
off because my mouse is allmessed up, so I apologize.
(13:40):
Black wax two minutes, fourminutes, and I had three gems,
five standards, 2 clip, 4 clip.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
We need to get you into my arena of discovery,
which is going into thebasements of old mansions and
leaky old barns.
I like that, yeah, where it'shumid and there's that light
fragrance of black mold in theair and you have to go in with a
mask and it's dark because theelectric was shut off in the
(14:14):
1970s and just looking for oldrecords and stuff.
I went into a basement threeyears ago that was flooded with
four feet of water and it wassurrounded by rusting machines
that were formerly fine andcabinets are rotting and I found
parts high up on shelves thatwere long forgotten, that I
actually needed.
But it's the story aspect too,like how I found my first
(14:37):
machine, how Joe and Tracy foundtheirs, how you found your
first machine.
But there's always the story ofthe hunt and that's part of
this chatter that we all havewith each other and it's endless
.
It is truly endless.
It's so endless indeed that Joeand Tracy have actually invited
me into their home to stay here, because we talk so much, so we
(14:57):
might as well talk overbreakfast, lunch and dinner and
while we're working on machines.
It creates friendships too andconnections.
That's another great part ofthe hobby.
Because of the internet.
Hey, I've met you.
I met Joe and Tracy over theinternet and we have this little
it's not little anymore thisglobal family of people.
(15:18):
I was just talking to someonethat works at a radio museum in
Norway, that has an Edison andwanted to know how to get it
fixed.
And because of the internetwe're able to connect more and
I've made dozens of new friendsover the past couple of decades
and they are lifelong friends,and that's just another great
(15:40):
benefit of being involved withthis.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Joe introduced me to Ed, ed Warner and Ed's worked on
all my Edisons.
I've carried more machines upand down those damn stairs that
I want to admit to.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Ed loves fixing things and I try to tell him to
slow down, but he will.
He's so excited that theglisten in his eye when I think
I saw you had a fireside inthere.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Another auction house in New Jersey listed a machine,
and I could tell where the waythey wrote it, that they didn't
really know what it was.
There weren't great pictures,but it wasn't a home and it
looked like a triumph, and so Isaid you know what?
If it doesn't go for a lot, I'mgoing to bid on it.
So it came with this big redhorn that's now on another
(16:29):
machine, and I went there andpicked it up Now, I got it at a
really good price and youthought it was a good price too,
joe and worked, but it had somewear on it.
Somebody had accidentally leftthe, opened it up, and the top
flipped over onto the floor.
The only thing that really gotdamaged, though, was the case.
(16:52):
The mechanism was fine.
It needed to be cleaned.
It may have been by a heater atone time.
So and I'm like again, I'm inno rush I got plenty of things
to listen to, and he wentmethodically through it, and
then, of course, talking to Joe,everything got out of hand.
It really should have differenthorn on it the wood horn,
(17:12):
signet horn out of hand.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
It really should have different horn on it, the wood
horn signet horn Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
And I'm like, oh, that signet wood horn is on my
fireside.
I could take that out and putit on my Triumph.
I bet it would be nice.
So then, what happened?
So now I need another signethorn, which I've already bought,
to put on, not a wood one, buta black one to put back on my
fireside, because it has thathorizontal, horizontal carriage
(17:39):
with a B Top mount.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Here we are again with the terminology Darn it.
You're saying standard,fireside and Triumph and your
listeners are like what?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
the heck are these people talking about?
Probably a standard?
Maybe I should let you explain,because you actually know, and
I'm just going to make it up,it's just the name terminology
for different.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
You know, like your gem is your less expensive model
and it was marketed as the gemphonograph, excuse me.
And then you have your standard, your triumph.
There's a whole bunch of names.
Oh, there's one thing if anyonewants to learn more about all
of this, there are books outthere that have been published
in the last 40 years, and thereare even a few books on the
(18:24):
apple store.
If you have an apple device andthere it, we're no longer out
in the wild walking aroundaimlessly, not knowing what
we're looking at.
There's a reference book fornearly every machine that's out
there.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, the zone of, I was just gonna ask that question
, yeah they're in books.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
One of my favorite books is called the talking
machine, a complete compendiumand you can google that.
I think schiffer bookspublishes it.
If you only want to buy onebook, it's going to cover most
of the machines.
It's an excellent introductionand a lot of the younger
collectors that I talk tothey're asking me questions.
(19:07):
I'm like stop pump the brakes,big stuff.
You need to buy a book and sitdown and read and learn because
you have all this enthusiasm.
I can hear it in your voice.
You really are interested andturned on by these things.
Now it's time to get educated,and that's another aspect of it.
We haven't even talked aboutthe books and the ephemera and
(19:29):
everything else and howspecialized all this is.
But yeah, that's just yourmodel designations.
We talk about it so casuallybecause the four of us know what
these are, but when we usethose weird words, it's just the
models that we're talking about, the different ones.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
And realize that the prices on some of the more
common machines, Edison,especially the standards, the
homes, they've pretty muchlowered a great deal even in the
past year.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Oh yeah, in the past 20 years because more of them
are out in the wild to be foundthere was a machine called an
opera which is an Edison opera.
20 years ago that was a 10 to$12,000 machine because people
would be in the hobby for 50years.
They'd never see one.
But now you can get an operafor 4,500, $5,500 or less If
(20:15):
you're really fortunate.
I've had a few customers buythem in an antique store for
$200 because the dealer justdidn't know, because the antique
dealer didn't have the books.
They didn't have the education.
Anyone that I talk to that'snew at this.
I say the first thing, the mostpowerful thing you can do, is
buy the books, start readingcasually, educate yourself.
(20:37):
So when you're out there, steve, you'll be able to.
I know you're going to go intoan antique shop and be like, ah,
that's an Edison fireside witha signet horn, a swan's neck
horn, and you'll have a.
You'll gain an idea of what thevalue should be and I don't
collect on value Some people do.
Some people are like, oh, howmuch is that worth, how much is
(20:59):
that worth?
But for me it doesn't matter.
If it's affordable, that's good.
What's not an investment?
Stocks and what are the otherthings?
Annuities, those areinvestments.
But for me, the investment isin my mental health and my
sanity, which is another programentirely the mental health, the
DSM of phonographs, we can callit For people like me that I
(21:23):
live alone.
For the most part, they keep mecompany.
I'm never in a quiet roombecause there's always sound.
Gosh, this is such a bigsubject.
No wonder so many books havebeen written about it.
But okay, yeah, look for theDSM of phonographs.
It'll be out in 2026.
I have to collaborate with afew psychiatrists and
(21:44):
psychologists.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
So anyway, so that triumph is going to become with
all Ed's hard work is going tobe something special.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
It sounds fantastic work.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
It's going to be something special.
It sounds fantastic.
Yeah, it's almost done.
I bought the reproducer fromyou.
I don't know which one.
It was H I got because I have awhole handful of Cs, but I had
the H and of course Ed wanted it.
So he kept saying can I tradethe H and the C for my K?
And I finally said okay, youhave a K now.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Yeah, why did he do that?
Why did I do it?
I don't know why he did that,but a K is more convenient.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
In his mind.
I think he thought that Iwouldn't swap them out, and he
may be correct.
I may just leave whatever's inthere because I'm, and why
doesn't it?
Speaker 4 (22:40):
play.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, so it's like my gem that has the four minute
two minute thing on there, Neverknow which way the gear is
supposed to go thing.
But he was trying to make iteasier on me in his mind.
So I said, okay, I'm happy thathe worked so hard on them and
he does great work.
I'm trying to learn more aboutother things that I mean I can
(23:04):
be a little impulsive when Ipurchase things.
I don't know if Joe might'vewitnessed some of that, even
when I was at his house.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Well, you know what?
That's what you call excitement?
You're in the front, yeah, andthere's nothing wrong with that.
I think you'll find we're fouryears into it now, which is
nothing compared to some others,Four years certainly compared
to some of the other collectors.
It is just scratching thesurface, but our tastes have
(23:34):
already changed quitesignificantly in the four years
and I still though like, even ifI have a couple of the same
model, they sound different,they play different, they look
different.
One might be a lighter oak, onemight be a darker oak, but
they're all snowflakes, they'reall a little bit different.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Yeah, you definitely change your taste in machines.
In the beginning we were prettyshoot at the hip, we saw it, we
bought it thing as well.
And then the more you learn,the more you appreciate
different ones, the more you gofor the look or the sound.
Everybody's taste is going tochange a little bit in the
collection.
Ours definitely has, and we'vesold machines that we probably
(24:21):
didn't think we would sell whenwe first started.
And we have some machines thatwe just don't want to sell.
That wouldn't be something thatsomebody else would keep.
For example, my favorite is aFrench model.
Some call it a Pathé, some callit a Pathé, depending on who
you talk to.
But that is my favorite machinein the house, but it's not
going to be everybody's favorite.
(24:41):
The other thing for newlisteners and people looking to
get into the hobby don't beafraid to ask online, even if
you might get somebody thatmight be a little snarky or
short-sighted, that's okay.
There's going to be people outthere like that.
But if you have a questionabout a machine that you want to
buy, okay, there's going to bepeople out there like that.
But if you have a questionabout a machine that you want to
buy, I highly recommend youpost and ask before purchasing,
because there are a lot of fakesout there.
They'll call them frankenfonesor crapophones or there's
(25:03):
different terminology that arenot originals and were made in
the 60s, 70s, 80s, whenever.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Still being made.
Still being made, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Yeah, that if you're new you wouldn't know
necessarily because you wouldhave no way of knowing.
There are a few telltale signs,like where the horn connects is
a very sharp point.
That's usually a telltale signand then a reproducer if it
looks like it's got Christmastrees on it.
For the most part that is notgoing to be a realistic or
(25:36):
original phonograph, or at leastthe reproducer, if nothing else
is fake.
So don't be afraid to ask.
Give yourself the extra 10, 20minutes for somebody to respond,
because they do respond quicklyonline.
You don't necessarily have tosay where you are because you
don't want someone coming in andbuying it, but get a couple of
opinions and feedback before youjump in.
And people are out therewilling to help you and guide
you in the right direction toget you into the collection and
(25:58):
into the hobby.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
And online.
I think it's fair to say, andcertainly something my dad used
to say if it's too good to betrue, it usually isn't.
That happens a lot online.
It happens on Facebook, happenson Facebook Marketplace yes,
have I gotten things off ofFacebook marketplace?
Yes, but I went to their housesor went to their offices and
(26:20):
bought them.
I bought a standard banner,green Oak.
I'm just doing it again For ahundred bucks.
A doctor in Long Island.
He goes, it's in my office.
I said I'll be right there andI drove over and the thing
worked perfectly.
I'd never done a thing to it.
It did come with a reproductionhorn.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
My first cylinder machine was in a wood shop and
it was in that wood shop since1900.
And they used it and used itand then when it was obsolete,
they put it in a corner and whenthe guy brought it to my house
it had about a quarter inch ofsawdust on it because it was
(27:05):
literally put away and forgotten.
And I it was a new thinglearning curve.
Here we are.
I had to learn how to fix it.
And there we go again with mydopamine as soon as I heard it
play.
It was a great feeling.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Good stuff it's amazing, right, it's amazing how
they are complicated machinesbut they're incredibly basic all
at the same time and they'resimplistic principles's.
Pretty much.
Edison's strength of all thingsis his ability to make
simplistic things that changethe world, even though he was a
(27:43):
thief.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
But we'll go on that oh, we were just talking about
that.
Today.
That seems to be the wordamongst the young people.
Now I'm on tiktok and I focus alot on Edison stuff and I have
these young kids they say, oh,he stole that, and I'll be like
they didn't really steal it, hejust made it marketable and
functional.
(28:04):
He commercialized things.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah, he stole the movie from a famous French
director.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Oh, gaumont, I don't know the guy's name, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
He stole that and put Edison Productions under it and
released it in america and madea fortune well beyond that.
Who cares?
yeah, listen he was an egomaniac, he was a cheat.
By the way, my friend's fatherused to work for him.
Yeah, he, he passed away.
He probably died at 85 in 1978or nine, and he worked for
(28:38):
Edison as like a page at thewhen he was a young boy, at the
I don't know if it was thefactory or his house or whatever
and he said he was the mostdemanding human being he ever
met in his life, being he evermet in his life.
He gave people he used to sayhe gave people a tremendous
amount of freedom and demandedconstant success.
(29:01):
Yeah not necessarily success,but innovation is probably a
better word.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
You demanded innovation.
There was a story I told Joetoday while walking around the
historic site that he would hirepeople out of other departments
.
As an example, he might takesomeone out of the accounting
department and put them inengineering.
Why are you sending me to theengineering department?
Because all the engineers, whenI told them what I wanted done,
(29:29):
they said it couldn't be done.
You won't tell me that it can'tbe done, so it was just another
way of thinking.
He was a thinker.
And here's one more examplethey were looking for new sounds
, new types of music and this isa true story.
New types of music and this is atrue story.
They recorded music backwardsonto disc records and then they
(30:02):
played them and they werelooking for new beats and new
things in music.
I don't know if he felt thatwe've come to the end of our
musical evolution, but that wasan interesting experiment
playing music backwards becausehe had the technology to do so
and they did a lot of that Backthen.
They tried a lot of things.
They would try something 10,000times, 10,000 failures, and
(30:23):
eventually they would get itright.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
You know the story about hip-hop, how it started in
the Bronx.
So these guys started in theirbasement.
They would have like littleparties and they wanted to have
great beats.
And they heard these albumsfrom this German band called
Kraftwerk.
I don't know if you know whothey are, no, no, they played
electronic music that had theseelectronic beats to it and they
(30:47):
heard these beats and they usedthe records on their machines
and hand-manipulated them tochange the beats, but they loved
the beats of Kraftwerk.
So this significant electronicGerman band becomes one of the
founding movements in hip-hop,being created in the Bronx in
(31:12):
somebody's basement.
Basically these basementparties, and there are three
original or four original guysthat, if you look up, they're
founders of rap and hip-hop.
All come from these Hefwerkalbums as the background of the
beats they're out there.
People hear.
It's like every artist, right?
You talk to Van Gogh.
(31:33):
People wondered why he paintedthat way.
He used to say I see, this iswhat I see.
Artists see and hear andinfluence things in a different
way than the rest of us, andthat's what Britain must.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Actually, I have nothing.
It has nothing to do with hispolitics.
He just I don't know.
Okay, I think very quick andvery slow at the same time.
I think that he has such greatself-interest that he's pushing
upon the population, that he'spushing upon the population and
(32:13):
he doesn't think outside of hisown grandiose goals and what he
wants to achieve.
Yeah, he's done great things Ilike Starlink but at the same
time, not everyone can afford an$80,000 to $140,000 electric
car, and all those electric carsare powered by coal.
There are multiple bookswritten about his quirks and his
personality, but it takes youtalk a lot about what some
(32:37):
people call pseudoscience and alot of talk about Victor
Schauberger, nikola Tesla,charles, proteus, steinmetz,
edison and great advances alwayscome from the fringe of the
subject matter.
It never comes from the centerof studying.
(33:00):
And yeah, I'm quirky, we're alla little quirky, but sometimes
that's what it takes, and withMusk, that's what it takes.
He's a quirky guy, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, and he does that same thing.
Like you said about Edison, hetakes people.
If he doesn't, I want you tothink out of the box.
And if he doesn't, he gets ridof him.
He hires somebody else.
He brings people in.
He'll bring anyone, he doesn'tcare people in.
Yeah, he'll bring anyone, hedoesn't care.
You want to think out of thebox?
You want to.
I want you to think ofsomething no one's thought of
(33:32):
before.
Apply things differently, lookat it differently.
I think that he is very intothat, and so was that, and so
was all these guys that werelike that.
Yeah, certainly tesla was likethat oh yeah, eventually.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I know someday I'm going to walk around the block
three times before going into abuilding and I'll gain an
affinity for collecting pigeons.
I know it's going to happen,but yeah, that's what it takes.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
We covered a lot of ground tonight, I think.
Yes, sir, and I think I hope wegave everyone a little bit of
overview.
Sunday we'll all be at I knowboth of you have tables at a
phonograph show in Wayne, newJersey.
It's the PAL right.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
It's at the PAL, which is the Police Athletic
League.
It's One Pal Drive in Wayne,New Jersey.
It's the mechanical musicextravaganza.
Anything old technology,music-related, record-related,
it'll be there.
There's a ginormous communityof people that collect these and
(34:41):
fix them, and it's our societyand you will see the myriads of
other things, paraphernalia thatpeople collect, record duster
they don't have a special name.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Like everything else, people have massive collections
of those things.
People have mess, collectionsof needle tins.
Yeah, yeah, there are so manythings that people collect in
this, or signs or ads.
I have a bunch.
I just bought three more.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
I don't know A nipper dog, all kinds of nippers.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
There's one lady.
Her name is Joan Rolf.
She actually wrote her and herhusband, robin, wrote the book
on antique phonograph, toys,right Toy phonographs and
talking dolls.
Actually, your listeners maynot know this, but the first
commercial application of thephonograph was the talking doll
(35:36):
from Edison.
It only existed for a veryshort period of time.
It was a commercial failure,but it was the first
commercially available talkingmachine.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
And it is the creepiest looking thing I've
ever seen in my life.
Amen Agreed.
Yeah, ed has one.
Do you ever see it?
It's a living room.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Oh I, he showed it to me.
I don't.
It's in the living room.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
It belongs in a closet.
Yeah, it's in the attic.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, halloween comes around, put that thing away so
you can imagine how much wedislike them.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
If Edison collectors like us, who have all kinds of
things from Edison, can't standthem.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
You might want to edit that part out as Ed hears
this.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Doll collectors would like them.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah, whenever I'm in an antique shop I always pick
up the dolls and I look if theyhave metal bodies on them,
because I recognize the face ofan Edison doll, the porcelain
head.
And there's actually a Frenchcompany called.
Oh, what is it?
Lioray?
Lioray was a watch andclockmaker, a clockmaker, a
(36:40):
horologist, and they made atalking doll called a bébé
jumeau, and the bébé Jumeauwould play a little celluloid
record and it was more of acommercial success than the
Edison talking doll.
But still see in, just when youthink about it, five, six years
(37:01):
ago I worked on a talking oilcan for the standard motor
company.
It was probably from the 1930sor 1940s.
You push a button on the topand it played a little vinyl
record inside of it.
It was an advertisement forStandard Oil.
There are phonographs andeverything.
Nissan.
(37:24):
Nissan came out with a car inthe early 1980s, the Nissan
Stanza.
It had or excuse me, the Maxima.
It had a mechanical or no, ithad a mechanical phonograph in
it.
When your door was open it wouldnotify you with a voice.
And it wasn't off of amicrochip, it was off of a
record.
Yeah, or the what's the thingthat we all had when we were
(37:46):
real young where you turn thelittle arrow to an animal and
it's like the dog goes or thecow goes, move, I figured what
those were called.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Pull the string.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, and it would talk.
Phonographs were in manydifferent things that didn't
play music.
Yeah, it's a cool hobby.
Talking dolls are an entiresubset.
Yeah, oh, one little.
You got me thinking, steve.
Another little bit of Edisontrivia for all the haters out
there of Edison.
Every time you answer yourphone and you say hello, guess
(38:18):
who invented that word?
Edison?
Because Alexander Graham Bell.
If we went with his method ofanswering the phone, it would be
ahoy oy, ahoy oy.
(38:40):
And I don't know what Edison'sreasoning was between hello I'm
not making this up and peopleare like I wonder how did Edison
come up with hello?
Some people think it's likeahoy hell, no, hello, hello.
Maybe that's how it came about,but he's credited.
Maybe it's an urban legend, Idon't know, but hello is
credited to edison.
well, other than like everrecorded was the first thing
(39:02):
ever, I'm mary commercially ohyeah, that's, that's 1877 mr
cruci made the first tinfoilphonograph to Edison's
specifications and it worked.
For the first try.
It worked and he just recitedMary had a Little Lamb into it,
(39:30):
Menlo Park Laboratory window,because the building just was
falling apart and there wasdetritus everywhere.
But I hold this piece of glassis only like an inch by an inch
and a half, and I hold thatpiece of glass in my hand and I
look at it and think Mary had alittle lamb and the applause and
the cheering and the excitementthat happened in the Menlo Park
Laboratory.
This piece of glass was thereand it vibrated with the
excitement.
And when they got the lightbulb to work for more than
(39:53):
several minutes that piece ofglass was there and it just sets
my imagination off in wildtangents, just imagining how it
was back then.
Gosh, I have a nail fromEdison's childhood home in Port
Huron.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
Huh, you took one today.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
No, no, I got it at the museum in Port Huron where
he worked as a I think he was atelegraph operator.
They sold nails.
You could buy them in the giftstore.
His family lived in Port Huronfor a short time.
And what else is in mycollection?
I have some lick and stickreturn address labels from his
(40:36):
youngest son, theodore, who alsohad a laboratory in West Orange
, new Jersey, called CalabronLeBron.
But it's my in my little eventinventor drawer.
I have all these little things.
But, yeah, imagination andrespect and, as you say you're,
we're preserving history, thecultural instrument that is the
(40:59):
phonograph.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Really changed the world.
He did let it sit for a whilebefore he really concentrated on
it.
I know he was creating thisstupid thing called the light
bulb, but columbia.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
That dragged him back into it.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I believe correct?
Don't know, because I didn'tspend enough time reading the
books, the important books.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yeah, I think you saw other people using it, other
people, whether it was columbiaor not, and he resented since he
invented it and jumped backthen.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
I'm thinking it was around 1888 when we had an
explosion of applied creativityin the talking machine world and
Edison's first commercialphonographs for commerce were
actually used for officedictation and they weren't
really intended to be used forentertainment, but some people
were, because you could recordyour voice.
Some people started recordingmusic with them and playing the
(42:01):
music back and he realized wecould make some money with these
things.
There were several people atthe time all vying to be top
dogs.
So, yeah, you had cylinderrecords, disc records, but the
dictation machine was, I think,one of the earliest uses for
(42:22):
these phonographs.
And there was another companyin Connecticut called Columbia
and they had dictation machinestoo.
They were just for officedictation and then people
started using them for music.
It's funny how that allhappened.
Anything else?
Speaker 1 (42:40):
guys, we'll leave it there for now.
This is a good program thankyou for inviting us.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Pleasure, I hope.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
I would like hopefully that we could do some
video, maybe in the future andhopefully maybe we can get
guests on, people who want toshow us their collection and we
would talk about it and see it.
So hopefully this is the firstof many.
These are going to be like sideepisodes on my regular podcast,
because I already haveeverything working and it's
already out there.
I'm in 28 countries and 276cities around the world.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
That is amazing.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
I don't know who these people are and I don't
know why the hell they'relistening to me, but there must
be something about you they justlove.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
We appreciate your show.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Thank you again.
Well, that concludes ourinterview with Wyatt, joe and
Tracy.
We're going to try to make thisa supplemental podcast,
obviously on audio and videofrom time to time.
So if you're interested, youwill get these supplementals,
(43:45):
but our regular podcast will beout there and we'll be doing our
regular interviews andconversations on many different
topics.
So for now, thank you all forlistening.
I look forward to your feedbackand hopefully you will hear me
and see me very soon.
Hello everyone and welcome back to A Better Life,
new York.
I bring you back to part two ofour conversation with Wyatt,
joe and Tracy.
And now part two.
And what's interesting andcorrect me when I'm wrong, guys
(00:20):
is those cylinders areoriginally recorded.
So everything's realized thatthere are no microphones, right,
everything's recordedacoustically.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, they were all recorded through a megaphone.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yeah, caruso, what his major voice are singing
through these megaphones and theinstruments have megaphones.
There was one master made andthey only made for a long time
individual cylinders from themaster, one at a time, isn't
that correct.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm going to go back a little bit further.
At the very beginning of thecylinder era, when wax cylinder
records were being sold to thepublic, the company would have a
performer come in and theywould line anywhere from 10 to
20 machines in front of thatperformer and that performer
would record for about two and ahalf minutes their piece, while
(01:10):
all of these machines wererecording simultaneously.
But then you only get 20 or 25records.
So what does the performer do?
When that session's over?
They do it again.
Performer do when thatsession's over, they do it again
.
And some performers would recorda dozen or a couple dozen times
a day to produce records, andeach record was an original.
(01:33):
But what they did not?
To get too technical, theywould put graphite on these wax
records and then they wouldelectroplate them with copper
and you would thus create a moldand you could pour wax into
that mold and, yes, as you said,take one master record and from
(01:55):
that one single record, pressor pour thousands of them.
Now, on one hand, the performeris not getting paid for 25
recording sessions in a day,they're only getting paid for
one.
But for the manufacturer that'sdistributing these records,
that's money in the bank andthey started mass-producing
(02:17):
records.
The phonograph just exploded.
It was a worldwide phenomenonand made these people famous.
Oh, worldwide fame and a clock.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Does that her name?
And I'm a glue, I'm a she.
What?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
a voice she became like the first famous woman
singer yes, uh, and who's theother one, the the first big
singer?
Now, pardon, ada, not Ada Jones, actually it was John McCormack
.
He was, I think, the firstphonograph performer.
(02:52):
Oh, I hope this is correct.
He was the first one to make$100,000.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Really.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
As a performer and $100,000 back in the teens early
20s was a lot of money and$100,000 back in the teens early
20s was a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
It's funny because I just I bought a whole bunch of
records at auction, maybe 300.
They're all still in boxes andthe guy that saw that, the
auction, that shipped it firstof all.
They must have broke at least30 or 40 of them.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, they're just baked clay discs with a little
shellac mixed in.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I know but they didn't really pack it, they just
filled the box.
They didn't put anything aroundit and I complained because he
charged me a lot of money toship it.
But I bought it real cheap.
So who cares?
But I just get mad at it.
I didn't see anything therethat would have blew my mind
stuff I probably already hadanyway.
But there was a lot of that erarecording at least 101 box it's
(03:52):
probably more than three now,but I haven't gone through them
all yet.
I went through one box lastnight and Joe and I have been
using an ultrasonic cleaner toclean the records.
I had found one.
I started using it.
I couldn't believe it.
I called him, sent him apicture of it and he said what
is it?
He bought it right away andwe've been going through our
(04:14):
collection.
I have about 1,078, so I'mstill in the middle of it.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
It certainly is a lot better than one by one, which
Tracy and I started doing backin the day.
We only got through about 50when we gave up.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
The ultrasonic cleaner does seven to 10 at a
time, and so we took three weeksand all of our records are now
clean.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, thank you for that, by the way.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
I was sick all week so I cleaned a lot of records
and I have, I don't know, threeor 400 diamond discs and I have
no idea how much cylinders.
I haven't gotten to them yet.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Would you like three or 400 more?
Oh, so don't put the diamonddisc in the cleaner.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I'll sit back down now.
I have one, two, I have one two.
I have three diamond discplayers.
I have I don't know what thatone is A C-150 maybe, and then I
have a Chalet.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
For all of you listeners out there that know
all of the model designationsevery floor model or table model
that was made not that was made, but they had different
furniture designs.
So if you're familiar with thesheraton design or the
chippendale design, and they haddifferent designations for the
model and the chalet was atabletop cabinet that was made
(05:36):
out of gumwood and it playsdiamond disc records which we
can talk about today, tonight orsome other.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
The chalet is interesting because it was meant
to like bring to a place thatit would be loud enough for
people to dance in a room.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, it was a small enough cabinet, it was priced
right and you could put it on atable.
It didn't take up floor spaceand it didn't weigh a lot, so
you could move it from one roomto another as needed.
Oh, it weighs a lot.
Oh, when I say a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So you could move it from one room to another as
needed.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Oh, it weighs a lot.
Oh, when I say a lot, like afloor model could weigh 250
pounds, Right, but that one'sprobably more in line with 70 or
75 pounds, which is light inthis.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
And then I have the small A100, which is a small
floor model that I drove out.
Some lady had it, she called me.
She says I want to get rid ofit.
It works fine.
It had been refinished, butwhen I took the refinish off it
was a new life.
The wood, which is like a cream, that's like a cleaner.
(06:35):
It looks unbelievable.
It's missing two little cloverleaves.
Actually, what happened wasthey'd lost a crank and they
bought a replaceable crank,except it couldn't fit in the
hole with the, the whole plateover it.
I don't know what you callthose then grommet, yeah it's
(06:56):
scutcheon, scutcheon thank you.
It couldn't fit with thescutcheon so they took the
scutcheon off.
Yeah, when I found an originalhammer and an original scutcheon
and replaced it and now itlooks fantastic and it works
well and it plays great and it'sin my office because it isn't
as big as everything else In myoffice.
I have a gramophone W that Ibought from Joe, with a big
(07:22):
nickel plated horn.
I have a I try to have a littlecross section of everything.
I have the XX80 Petrola.
On top I have an Edisonstandard banner with a big red
horn.
I have the Columbia gramophonetable model, the one I bought
(07:45):
from you, right?
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Yes, what is that a?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
100 or 150 or something.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
It's a tabletop with the oak finish and, dear
listener, this is exactly whatcollectors like Steve Joe and I
sound like when we're talking toeach other and we talk in codes
.
It's a C250 with a doublespring motor, with the side
mounted crank, and it's in thegold finish in the oak cabinet,
and there was an option formahogany, but that was, you know
(08:13):
, ten dollars more, which was alot of money back in the day.
Or did you have an edisontriumph?
Yeah, I got a triumph.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
it's a mahogany finish with a triple spring
motor and after a while, youstart to sound like us you know,
I've been criticized because myI've been criticized on our
facebook page by very famouspeople, collectors, or at least
famous people in the society,who have accused me of having
(08:38):
more machines than knowledge.
And I admit I have moremachines than knowledge.
But tough.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
The knowledge will come in plenty of time.
Don't worry about it.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Our attitude needs to change too, because we need to
welcome more people into thehobby Me too.
Even today, I still getnegativity in some of these
internet groups from people thatthey take it upon themselves to
have to correct me.
And I'm not infallible.
I make mistakes, I'll say thewrong thing sometimes, and
(09:14):
instead of being nasty, it'sbetter to be kind and just say
oh no, that isn't opinion gear,that is a spur gear, and I'll be
like Thank you for helping me,thank you for correcting me on
that.
I appreciate your help.
Isn't that better than?
Oh, you said it was a spur gear?
It's a pinion gear and it's notthe first pinion gear.
It's the second pinion gear andit's called a spring barrel.
(09:37):
It's not called a spring box orwhatever.
Canister, canister, a can, it'sokay, I get it.
I get it.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
That's one thing that got.
Joe and I really into it is.
We were lucky enough to meetthe right people early that were
willing to help and teach uswhy, it being one of the main
ones and it was without judgmentand it was just no.
Let me teach these new peopleabout the hobby and the right
terminology and how to work onthings and fix things, and
(10:11):
without that we really probablywouldn't be as into it as we are
, because we were welcomed withopen arms, and that's a big
thing.
In any hobby right.
In any hobby right.
If you want to keep it going,especially something like this
that is going out of style ornot really out there, you have
(10:32):
to welcome new people with openarms and help them learn it,
understand it and appreciate itin a manner that isn't going to
be a turnoff.
And oh, I don't want to be apart of that because I don't
understand it so clearly.
I can't be a part of it.
It's not an exclusion.
The more people we include, themore we keep this history
around and the more we educatepeople in the future.
I mean, joe and I are learningevery day.
(10:55):
I think all of us learnsomething periodically about it.
Wyatt may be less than the restof us, he's still learning.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Every day I learn something.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
There's always something more to learn that we
don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
I meet collectors online and learn about them and
have conversations with themPeople that have one or two or
three machines and then maybehave bought and sold other
machines but only have a coupleand really concentrate on the
music or concentrate on therecordings, and I find that
admirable.
I wish I could do that, but I'mbeyond that it's part of the
(11:26):
ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
You're going to have people that just focus on the
records.
You're going to have peoplelike me that focus on the
machines and the technology.
You're going to have peoplethat call them I call them
finders.
All they do is find and sell tous collectors.
I find resellers all the time.
And then you have restorers,like Joe and Tracy, that also
buy and sell machines.
(11:47):
And the ecosystem has manyparts and we even have bottom
feeders the guys that go andthey buy these $25 machines and
they bring it home because it'swithin their budget and they'll
take months or weeks or days tofix it and make it functional
and it's a great feeling.
That's the feedback, that's the.
(12:08):
Was it the dopamine hit?
Is that right?
It's.
That's how we get our fix.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
My thought is preserving the history of it all
.
We clearly I bought a lot of agentleman's collection who
recently passed away the lastcouple of years, and his wife
had this massive collection.
He lived in New Jersey.
He wasn't one of the more knowncollectors that passed away but
(12:36):
he was very close to him and hehas a massive collection in his
little house in new jerseywhere he collected.
I mentioned it to you, wyatt,he collected train whistles and
bells, fire whistles and bellsand I don't know how the house
(12:56):
didn't collapse upon itself hehad these things that took five
people to bring into the house,the big, massive bells from the
top of a diesel engine.
And he had a good friend thatwas a very big collector in New
Jersey and we all know who I'mtalking about.
He'll go on and mention and hewould buy and trade things with
(13:19):
him.
So I went to the house and Imissed on a lot of good stuff.
But I bought a lot of goodstuff too, and there's still
horns and cranes and things shehas.
I bought boxes of cylindersfrom her Blue ones, Ambarola I
don't want to say Ambarola aswell, and my production's all
off because my mouse is allmessed up, so I apologize.
(13:40):
Black wax two minutes, fourminutes, and I had three gems,
five standards, 2 clip, 4 clip.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
We need to get you into my arena of discovery,
which is going into thebasements of old mansions and
leaky old barns.
I like that, yeah, where it'shumid and there's that light
fragrance of black mold in theair and you have to go in with a
mask and it's dark because theelectric was shut off in the
(14:14):
1970s and just looking for oldrecords and stuff.
I went into a basement threeyears ago that was flooded with
four feet of water and it wassurrounded by rusting machines
that were formerly fine andcabinets are rotting and I found
parts high up on shelves thatwere long forgotten, that I
actually needed.
But it's the story aspect too,like how I found my first
(14:37):
machine, how Joe and Tracy foundtheirs, how you found your
first machine.
But there's always the story ofthe hunt and that's part of
this chatter that we all havewith each other and it's endless
.
It is truly endless.
It's so endless indeed that Joeand Tracy have actually invited
me into their home to stay here, because we talk so much, so we
(14:57):
might as well talk overbreakfast, lunch and dinner and
while we're working on machines.
It creates friendships too andconnections.
That's another great part ofthe hobby.
Because of the internet.
Hey, I've met you.
I met Joe and Tracy over theinternet and we have this little
it's not little anymore thisglobal family of people.
(15:18):
I was just talking to someonethat works at a radio museum in
Norway, that has an Edison andwanted to know how to get it
fixed.
And because of the internetwe're able to connect more and
I've made dozens of new friendsover the past couple of decades
and they are lifelong friends,and that's just another great
(15:40):
benefit of being involved withthis.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Joe introduced me to Ed, ed Warner and Ed's worked on
all my Edisons.
I've carried more machines upand down those damn stairs that
I want to admit to.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Ed loves fixing things and I try to tell him to
slow down, but he will.
He's so excited that theglisten in his eye when I think
I saw you had a fireside inthere.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Another auction house in New Jersey listed a machine,
and I could tell where the waythey wrote it, that they didn't
really know what it was.
There weren't great pictures,but it wasn't a home and it
looked like a triumph, and so Isaid you know what?
If it doesn't go for a lot, I'mgoing to bid on it.
So it came with this big redhorn that's now on another
(16:29):
machine, and I went there andpicked it up Now, I got it at a
really good price and youthought it was a good price too,
joe and worked, but it had somewear on it.
Somebody had accidentally leftthe, opened it up, and the top
flipped over onto the floor.
The only thing that really gotdamaged, though, was the case.
(16:52):
The mechanism was fine.
It needed to be cleaned.
It may have been by a heater atone time.
So and I'm like again, I'm inno rush I got plenty of things
to listen to, and he wentmethodically through it, and
then, of course, talking to Joe,everything got out of hand.
It really should have differenthorn on it the wood horn,
(17:12):
signet horn out of hand.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
It really should have different horn on it, the wood
horn signet horn Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
And I'm like, oh, that signet wood horn is on my
fireside.
I could take that out and putit on my Triumph.
I bet it would be nice.
So then, what happened?
So now I need another signethorn, which I've already bought,
to put on, not a wood one, buta black one to put back on my
fireside, because it has thathorizontal, horizontal carriage
(17:39):
with a B Top mount.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Here we are again with the terminology Darn it.
You're saying standard,fireside and Triumph and your
listeners are like what?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
the heck are these people talking about?
Probably a standard?
Maybe I should let you explain,because you actually know, and
I'm just going to make it up,it's just the name terminology
for different.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
You know, like your gem is your less expensive model
and it was marketed as the gemphonograph, excuse me.
And then you have your standard, your triumph.
There's a whole bunch of names.
Oh, there's one thing if anyonewants to learn more about all
of this, there are books outthere that have been published
in the last 40 years, and thereare even a few books on the
(18:24):
apple store.
If you have an apple device andthere it, we're no longer out
in the wild walking aroundaimlessly, not knowing what
we're looking at.
There's a reference book fornearly every machine that's out
there.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, the zone of, I was just gonna ask that question
, yeah they're in books.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
One of my favorite books is called the talking
machine, a complete compendiumand you can google that.
I think schiffer bookspublishes it.
If you only want to buy onebook, it's going to cover most
of the machines.
It's an excellent introductionand a lot of the younger
collectors that I talk tothey're asking me questions.
(19:07):
I'm like stop pump the brakes,big stuff.
You need to buy a book and sitdown and read and learn because
you have all this enthusiasm.
I can hear it in your voice.
You really are interested andturned on by these things.
Now it's time to get educated,and that's another aspect of it.
We haven't even talked aboutthe books and the ephemera and
(19:29):
everything else and howspecialized all this is.
But yeah, that's just yourmodel designations.
We talk about it so casuallybecause the four of us know what
these are, but when we usethose weird words, it's just the
models that we're talking about, the different ones.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
And realize that the prices on some of the more
common machines, Edison,especially the standards, the
homes, they've pretty muchlowered a great deal even in the
past year.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Oh yeah, in the past 20 years because more of them
are out in the wild to be foundthere was a machine called an
opera which is an Edison opera.
20 years ago that was a 10 to$12,000 machine because people
would be in the hobby for 50years.
They'd never see one.
But now you can get an operafor 4,500, $5,500 or less If
(20:15):
you're really fortunate.
I've had a few customers buythem in an antique store for
$200 because the dealer justdidn't know, because the antique
dealer didn't have the books.
They didn't have the education.
Anyone that I talk to that'snew at this.
I say the first thing, the mostpowerful thing you can do, is
buy the books, start readingcasually, educate yourself.
(20:37):
So when you're out there, steve, you'll be able to.
I know you're going to go intoan antique shop and be like, ah,
that's an Edison fireside witha signet horn, a swan's neck
horn, and you'll have a.
You'll gain an idea of what thevalue should be and I don't
collect on value Some people do.
Some people are like, oh, howmuch is that worth, how much is
(20:59):
that worth?
But for me it doesn't matter.
If it's affordable, that's good.
What's not an investment?
Stocks and what are the otherthings?
Annuities, those areinvestments.
But for me, the investment isin my mental health and my
sanity, which is another programentirely the mental health, the
DSM of phonographs, we can callit For people like me that I
(21:23):
live alone.
For the most part, they keep mecompany.
I'm never in a quiet roombecause there's always sound.
Gosh, this is such a bigsubject.
No wonder so many books havebeen written about it.
But okay, yeah, look for theDSM of phonographs.
It'll be out in 2026.
I have to collaborate with afew psychiatrists and
(21:44):
psychologists.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
So anyway, so that triumph is going to become with
all Ed's hard work is going tobe something special.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
It sounds fantastic work.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
It's going to be something special.
It sounds fantastic.
Yeah, it's almost done.
I bought the reproducer fromyou.
I don't know which one.
It was H I got because I have awhole handful of Cs, but I had
the H and of course Ed wanted it.
So he kept saying can I tradethe H and the C for my K?
And I finally said okay, youhave a K now.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Yeah, why did he do that?
Why did I do it?
I don't know why he did that,but a K is more convenient.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
In his mind.
I think he thought that Iwouldn't swap them out, and he
may be correct.
I may just leave whatever's inthere because I'm, and why
doesn't it?
Speaker 4 (22:40):
play.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, so it's like my gem that has the four minute
two minute thing on there, Neverknow which way the gear is
supposed to go thing.
But he was trying to make iteasier on me in his mind.
So I said, okay, I'm happy thathe worked so hard on them and
he does great work.
I'm trying to learn more aboutother things that I mean I can
(23:04):
be a little impulsive when Ipurchase things.
I don't know if Joe might'vewitnessed some of that, even
when I was at his house.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Well, you know what?
That's what you call excitement?
You're in the front, yeah, andthere's nothing wrong with that.
I think you'll find we're fouryears into it now, which is
nothing compared to some others,Four years certainly compared
to some of the other collectors.
It is just scratching thesurface, but our tastes have
(23:34):
already changed quitesignificantly in the four years
and I still though like, even ifI have a couple of the same
model, they sound different,they play different, they look
different.
One might be a lighter oak, onemight be a darker oak, but
they're all snowflakes, they'reall a little bit different.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Yeah, you definitely change your taste in machines.
In the beginning we were prettyshoot at the hip, we saw it, we
bought it thing as well.
And then the more you learn,the more you appreciate
different ones, the more you gofor the look or the sound.
Everybody's taste is going tochange a little bit in the
collection.
Ours definitely has, and we'vesold machines that we probably
(24:21):
didn't think we would sell whenwe first started.
And we have some machines thatwe just don't want to sell.
That wouldn't be something thatsomebody else would keep.
For example, my favorite is aFrench model.
Some call it a Pathé, some callit a Pathé, depending on who
you talk to.
But that is my favorite machinein the house, but it's not
going to be everybody's favorite.
(24:41):
The other thing for newlisteners and people looking to
get into the hobby don't beafraid to ask online, even if
you might get somebody thatmight be a little snarky or
short-sighted, that's okay.
There's going to be people outthere like that.
But if you have a questionabout a machine that you want to
buy, okay, there's going to bepeople out there like that.
But if you have a questionabout a machine that you want to
buy, I highly recommend youpost and ask before purchasing,
because there are a lot of fakesout there.
They'll call them frankenfonesor crapophones or there's
(25:03):
different terminology that arenot originals and were made in
the 60s, 70s, 80s, whenever.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
Still being made.
Still being made, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Yeah, that if you're new you wouldn't know
necessarily because you wouldhave no way of knowing.
There are a few telltale signs,like where the horn connects is
a very sharp point.
That's usually a telltale signand then a reproducer if it
looks like it's got Christmastrees on it.
For the most part that is notgoing to be a realistic or
(25:36):
original phonograph, or at leastthe reproducer, if nothing else
is fake.
So don't be afraid to ask.
Give yourself the extra 10, 20minutes for somebody to respond,
because they do respond quicklyonline.
You don't necessarily have tosay where you are because you
don't want someone coming in andbuying it, but get a couple of
opinions and feedback before youjump in.
And people are out therewilling to help you and guide
you in the right direction toget you into the collection and
(25:58):
into the hobby.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
And online.
I think it's fair to say, andcertainly something my dad used
to say if it's too good to betrue, it usually isn't.
That happens a lot online.
It happens on Facebook, happenson Facebook Marketplace yes,
have I gotten things off ofFacebook marketplace?
Yes, but I went to their housesor went to their offices and
(26:20):
bought them.
I bought a standard banner,green Oak.
I'm just doing it again For ahundred bucks.
A doctor in Long Island.
He goes, it's in my office.
I said I'll be right there andI drove over and the thing
worked perfectly.
I'd never done a thing to it.
It did come with a reproductionhorn.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
My first cylinder machine was in a wood shop and
it was in that wood shop since1900.
And they used it and used itand then when it was obsolete,
they put it in a corner and whenthe guy brought it to my house
it had about a quarter inch ofsawdust on it because it was
(27:05):
literally put away and forgotten.
And I it was a new thinglearning curve.
Here we are.
I had to learn how to fix it.
And there we go again with mydopamine as soon as I heard it
play.
It was a great feeling.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Good stuff it's amazing, right, it's amazing how
they are complicated machinesbut they're incredibly basic all
at the same time and they'resimplistic principles's.
Pretty much.
Edison's strength of all thingsis his ability to make
simplistic things that changethe world, even though he was a
(27:43):
thief.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
But we'll go on that oh, we were just talking about
that.
Today.
That seems to be the wordamongst the young people.
Now I'm on tiktok and I focus alot on Edison stuff and I have
these young kids they say, oh,he stole that, and I'll be like
they didn't really steal it, hejust made it marketable and
functional.
(28:04):
He commercialized things.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah, he stole the movie from a famous French
director.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Oh, gaumont, I don't know the guy's name, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
He stole that and put Edison Productions under it and
released it in america and madea fortune well beyond that.
Who cares?
yeah, listen he was an egomaniac, he was a cheat.
By the way, my friend's fatherused to work for him.
Yeah, he, he passed away.
He probably died at 85 in 1978or nine, and he worked for
(28:38):
Edison as like a page at thewhen he was a young boy, at the
I don't know if it was thefactory or his house or whatever
and he said he was the mostdemanding human being he ever
met in his life, being he evermet in his life.
He gave people he used to sayhe gave people a tremendous
amount of freedom and demandedconstant success.
(29:01):
Yeah not necessarily success,but innovation is probably a
better word.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
You demanded innovation.
There was a story I told Joetoday while walking around the
historic site that he would hirepeople out of other departments
.
As an example, he might takesomeone out of the accounting
department and put them inengineering.
Why are you sending me to theengineering department?
Because all the engineers, whenI told them what I wanted done,
(29:29):
they said it couldn't be done.
You won't tell me that it can'tbe done, so it was just another
way of thinking.
He was a thinker.
And here's one more examplethey were looking for new sounds
, new types of music and this isa true story.
New types of music and this is atrue story.
They recorded music backwardsonto disc records and then they
(30:02):
played them and they werelooking for new beats and new
things in music.
I don't know if he felt thatwe've come to the end of our
musical evolution, but that wasan interesting experiment
playing music backwards becausehe had the technology to do so
and they did a lot of that Backthen.
They tried a lot of things.
They would try something 10,000times, 10,000 failures, and
(30:23):
eventually they would get itright.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
You know the story about hip-hop, how it started in
the Bronx.
So these guys started in theirbasement.
They would have like littleparties and they wanted to have
great beats.
And they heard these albumsfrom this German band called
Kraftwerk.
I don't know if you know whothey are, no, no, they played
electronic music that had theseelectronic beats to it and they
(30:47):
heard these beats and they usedthe records on their machines
and hand-manipulated them tochange the beats, but they loved
the beats of Kraftwerk.
So this significant electronicGerman band becomes one of the
founding movements in hip-hop,being created in the Bronx in
(31:12):
somebody's basement.
Basically these basementparties, and there are three
original or four original guysthat, if you look up, they're
founders of rap and hip-hop.
All come from these Hefwerkalbums as the background of the
beats they're out there.
People hear.
It's like every artist, right?
You talk to Van Gogh.
(31:33):
People wondered why he paintedthat way.
He used to say I see, this iswhat I see.
Artists see and hear andinfluence things in a different
way than the rest of us, andthat's what Britain must.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Actually, I have nothing.
It has nothing to do with hispolitics.
He just I don't know.
Okay, I think very quick andvery slow at the same time.
I think that he has such greatself-interest that he's pushing
upon the population, that he'spushing upon the population and
(32:13):
he doesn't think outside of hisown grandiose goals and what he
wants to achieve.
Yeah, he's done great things Ilike Starlink but at the same
time, not everyone can afford an$80,000 to $140,000 electric
car, and all those electric carsare powered by coal.
There are multiple bookswritten about his quirks and his
personality, but it takes youtalk a lot about what some
(32:37):
people call pseudoscience and alot of talk about Victor
Schauberger, nikola Tesla,charles, proteus, steinmetz,
edison and great advances alwayscome from the fringe of the
subject matter.
It never comes from the centerof studying.
(33:00):
And yeah, I'm quirky, we're alla little quirky, but sometimes
that's what it takes, and withMusk, that's what it takes.
He's a quirky guy, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, and he does that same thing.
Like you said about Edison, hetakes people.
If he doesn't, I want you tothink out of the box.
And if he doesn't, he gets ridof him.
He hires somebody else.
He brings people in.
He'll bring anyone, he doesn'tcare people in.
Yeah, he'll bring anyone, hedoesn't care.
You want to think out of thebox?
You want to.
I want you to think ofsomething no one's thought of
(33:32):
before.
Apply things differently, lookat it differently.
I think that he is very intothat, and so was that, and so
was all these guys that werelike that.
Yeah, certainly tesla was likethat oh yeah, eventually.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I know someday I'm going to walk around the block
three times before going into abuilding and I'll gain an
affinity for collecting pigeons.
I know it's going to happen,but yeah, that's what it takes.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
We covered a lot of ground tonight, I think.
Yes, sir, and I think I hope wegave everyone a little bit of
overview.
Sunday we'll all be at I knowboth of you have tables at a
phonograph show in Wayne, newJersey.
It's the PAL right.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
It's at the PAL, which is the Police Athletic
League.
It's One Pal Drive in Wayne,New Jersey.
It's the mechanical musicextravaganza.
Anything old technology,music-related, record-related,
it'll be there.
There's a ginormous communityof people that collect these and
(34:41):
fix them, and it's our societyand you will see the myriads of
other things, paraphernalia thatpeople collect, record duster
they don't have a special name.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Like everything else, people have massive collections
of those things.
People have mess, collectionsof needle tins.
Yeah, yeah, there are so manythings that people collect in
this, or signs or ads.
I have a bunch.
I just bought three more.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
I don't know A nipper dog, all kinds of nippers.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
There's one lady.
Her name is Joan Rolf.
She actually wrote her and herhusband, robin, wrote the book
on antique phonograph, toys,right Toy phonographs and
talking dolls.
Actually, your listeners maynot know this, but the first
commercial application of thephonograph was the talking doll
(35:36):
from Edison.
It only existed for a veryshort period of time.
It was a commercial failure,but it was the first
commercially available talkingmachine.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
And it is the creepiest looking thing I've
ever seen in my life.
Amen Agreed.
Yeah, ed has one.
Do you ever see it?
It's a living room.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Oh I, he showed it to me.
I don't.
It's in the living room.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
It belongs in a closet.
Yeah, it's in the attic.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, halloween comes around, put that thing away so
you can imagine how much wedislike them.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
If Edison collectors like us, who have all kinds of
things from Edison, can't standthem.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
You might want to edit that part out as Ed hears
this.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Doll collectors would like them.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah, whenever I'm in an antique shop I always pick
up the dolls and I look if theyhave metal bodies on them,
because I recognize the face ofan Edison doll, the porcelain
head.
And there's actually a Frenchcompany called.
Oh, what is it?
Lioray?
Lioray was a watch andclockmaker, a clockmaker, a
(36:40):
horologist, and they made atalking doll called a bébé
jumeau, and the bébé Jumeauwould play a little celluloid
record and it was more of acommercial success than the
Edison talking doll.
But still see in, just when youthink about it, five, six years
(37:01):
ago I worked on a talking oilcan for the standard motor
company.
It was probably from the 1930sor 1940s.
You push a button on the topand it played a little vinyl
record inside of it.
It was an advertisement forStandard Oil.
There are phonographs andeverything.
Nissan.
(37:24):
Nissan came out with a car inthe early 1980s, the Nissan
Stanza.
It had or excuse me, the Maxima.
It had a mechanical or no, ithad a mechanical phonograph in
it.
When your door was open it wouldnotify you with a voice.
And it wasn't off of amicrochip, it was off of a
record.
Yeah, or the what's the thingthat we all had when we were
(37:46):
real young where you turn thelittle arrow to an animal and
it's like the dog goes or thecow goes, move, I figured what
those were called.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Pull the string.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, and it would talk.
Phonographs were in manydifferent things that didn't
play music.
Yeah, it's a cool hobby.
Talking dolls are an entiresubset.
Yeah, oh, one little.
You got me thinking, steve.
Another little bit of Edisontrivia for all the haters out
there of Edison.
Every time you answer yourphone and you say hello, guess
(38:18):
who invented that word?
Edison?
Because Alexander Graham Bell.
If we went with his method ofanswering the phone, it would be
ahoy oy, ahoy oy.
(38:40):
And I don't know what Edison'sreasoning was between hello I'm
not making this up and peopleare like I wonder how did Edison
come up with hello?
Some people think it's likeahoy hell, no, hello, hello.
Maybe that's how it came about,but he's credited.
Maybe it's an urban legend, Idon't know, but hello is
credited to edison.
well, other than like everrecorded was the first thing
(39:02):
ever, I'm mary commercially ohyeah, that's, that's 1877 mr
cruci made the first tinfoilphonograph to Edison's
specifications and it worked.
For the first try.
It worked and he just recitedMary had a Little Lamb into it,
(39:30):
Menlo Park Laboratory window,because the building just was
falling apart and there wasdetritus everywhere.
But I hold this piece of glassis only like an inch by an inch
and a half, and I hold thatpiece of glass in my hand and I
look at it and think Mary had alittle lamb and the applause and
the cheering and the excitementthat happened in the Menlo Park
Laboratory.
This piece of glass was thereand it vibrated with the
excitement.
And when they got the lightbulb to work for more than
(39:53):
several minutes that piece ofglass was there and it just sets
my imagination off in wildtangents, just imagining how it
was back then.
Gosh, I have a nail fromEdison's childhood home in Port
Huron.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
Huh, you took one today.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
No, no, I got it at the museum in Port Huron where
he worked as a I think he was atelegraph operator.
They sold nails.
You could buy them in the giftstore.
His family lived in Port Huronfor a short time.
And what else is in mycollection?
I have some lick and stickreturn address labels from his
(40:36):
youngest son, theodore, who alsohad a laboratory in West Orange
, new Jersey, called CalabronLeBron.
But it's my in my little eventinventor drawer.
I have all these little things.
But, yeah, imagination andrespect and, as you say you're,
we're preserving history, thecultural instrument that is the
(40:59):
phonograph.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Really changed the world.
He did let it sit for a whilebefore he really concentrated on
it.
I know he was creating thisstupid thing called the light
bulb, but columbia.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
That dragged him back into it.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I believe correct?
Don't know, because I didn'tspend enough time reading the
books, the important books.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yeah, I think you saw other people using it, other
people, whether it was columbiaor not, and he resented since he
invented it and jumped backthen.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
I'm thinking it was around 1888 when we had an
explosion of applied creativityin the talking machine world and
Edison's first commercialphonographs for commerce were
actually used for officedictation and they weren't
really intended to be used forentertainment, but some people
were, because you could recordyour voice.
Some people started recordingmusic with them and playing the
(42:01):
music back and he realized wecould make some money with these
things.
There were several people atthe time all vying to be top
dogs.
So, yeah, you had cylinderrecords, disc records, but the
dictation machine was, I think,one of the earliest uses for
(42:22):
these phonographs.
And there was another companyin Connecticut called Columbia
and they had dictation machinestoo.
They were just for officedictation and then people
started using them for music.
It's funny how that allhappened.
Anything else?
Speaker 1 (42:40):
guys, we'll leave it there for now.
This is a good program thankyou for inviting us.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Pleasure, I hope.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
I would like hopefully that we could do some
video, maybe in the future andhopefully maybe we can get
guests on, people who want toshow us their collection and we
would talk about it and see it.
So hopefully this is the firstof many.
These are going to be like sideepisodes on my regular podcast,
because I already haveeverything working and it's
already out there.
I'm in 28 countries and 276cities around the world.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
That is amazing.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
I don't know who these people are and I don't
know why the hell they'relistening to me, but there must
be something about you they justlove.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
We appreciate your show.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Thank you again.
Well, that concludes ourinterview with Wyatt, joe and
Tracy.
We're going to try to make thisa supplemental podcast,
obviously on audio and videofrom time to time.
So if you're interested, youwill get these supplementals,
(43:45):
but our regular podcast will beout there and we'll be doing our
regular interviews andconversations on many different
topics.
So for now, thank you all forlistening.
I look forward to your feedbackand hopefully you will hear me
and see me very soon.
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